Once The Kardia opens, and The Sovereign Artist Within is discovered, we begin to be inspired to create something that reflects the beauty of the universe all around us.

The Sovereign Artist may be understood as analogous to The Force from Star Wars and The Way from the Tao Te Ching. It is the Creator. It is God for those that believe in a god. It is, as Robert Frost poetically expressed, “the Secret that sits in the center and knows.”

We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.

—Robert Frost, The Secret Sits

Children don’t think about any of this “God” mumbo-jumbo, but, nonetheless, this sovereign life-giving light smiles upon them and, as we can easily observe, children simply live in the world that is, and, through their imaginations, transform it into the world that could be. That too, is the artist’s job.

The Sovereign Artist, you see, is not about belief, it’s a kind of felt music; a resonant inner knowing.

Receive the world in your arms.

If you receive the world,

the Tao will never leave you

and you will be like a little child.

—Lao Tse

Those words were written by Lao Tse in the Tao Te Ching over 2,500 years ago. The Chinese honorific suffix, “Tse” means something like “master” while simultaneously also meaning “child.”

That points to a truth: to be a true master, you must be “born again” into a second childhood.

In some ways, the surrender you must make to tap into the power of The Sovereign Artist is the hardest thing you’ll ever do; for you must let go of your ego and “die” if you wish to “bear much fruit.”

But in other ways, it’s the simplest thing in the world to come home to yourself.

When The Sovereign Artist sits upon the throne of your psyche, you recover a child’s playful joy—but now joined to a master’s skill. And the combination of the two is what turns you into an instrument of The Divine.

The journey starts by remembering the child inside. How poetic that the Chinese language expresses this idea in a single word: Tse.

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PS — One of the reasons I built FASO is because I believe art is important, artists are important, and the work you’re called to create deserves to be taken seriously. We are all sharing “miracles of existence” through our art.

Yes, at FASO, we build professional artist websites. Yes, we talk about marketing. Yes, we give artists tools to present their work, tell their stories, reach collectors, and sell more art.

But that is the how.

The why is that we love art, and we want to push back against a world that too often treats art like content and artists like algorithms. The modern world denigrates Beauty in preference of profit and efficiency. At FASO, we hold Beauty sacred.

So we don’t just host artist websites. We promote artists. We feature their work. We try, in our own small way, to help more art find the people who need it. And that informs everything we do and build.

If that resonates with you, we’d be honored to have you join us.

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PPS — If you’re not ready to look at FASO, you can support our mission by simply clicking the heart icon at the top or bottom of this article. That helps us reach more artists and art lovers and helps us spread Beauty to a world that is desperate for it.

—Clint

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What does it actually mean to make it as an artist? Not the Instagram version — the real version. The one that looks different at 25 than it does at 50. The one that shifts quietly under your feet while you’re busy just trying to keep painting.

I’ve had the privilege of sitting down with some of the most seasoned working artists I know, and when I ask them about success, the answers always surprise me. So today, I’ve pulled together some of the most honest, hard-won perspectives from past guests — on what success actually requires, what it costs, and what it turns into over time.

Episodes Mentioned:

100 Kevin MacPherson

101 Joseph Gyurcsak

105 SC Mummert

130 Scott Ruthven

140 Donald Yatomi

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Transcript:

Donald Yatomi: 0:00

What is success to you?

Scott Ruthven: 0:02

You set a goal for yourself, and the goal might be lofty, right? You want to be a self-supporting professional artist,

SC Mummert: 0:07

you know that all takes a level of ambition and drive to go ahead and see that through, and you’ve got to have that work ethic to make that, you know, to make that function, and that directly to me that directly correlates into, you know, how much success you experience on some level.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:25

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. What does it actually mean to make it as an artist? Not the Instagram version, the real version, the one that looks different at 25 than it looks at 50, the one that shifts quietly under your feet while you’re busy just trying to keep painting. I’ve had the privilege of sitting down with some of the most seasoned working artists I know, and when I ask them about success, the answers always surprise me. So today I’ve pulled together some of the most honest, hard-won perspectives from past guests on what success actually requires, what it costs and what it turns into over time. We often start our careers chasing milestones, the magazine feature, the gallery acceptance, the moment someone finally says you’ve made it. But what happens after that moment arrives?

Kevin Macpherson: 1:35

I guess having a vision, like as I said earlier, when I wanted to be an illustrator, I wanted to be the best, and I never had my parents never pushed me to do anything, you know. I didn’t have that thing. Sometimes when people, maybe their parents were a lawyer, and they want them to be a lawyer, they, you know, kind of fight that, you know, they don’t do what they want to do, so I had my own path, and I think I’ve always made my own choices, whether they were good or bad, and not tried to necessarily follow someone else’s method of success, again, maybe that’s a stupid thing, because there’s great people that we can learn from, and you know, skip over some things. I some people I remember a very fine artist when we were starting out. He really stressed he wanted to get into the Southwest art magazine or something, and he finally did. He thinks, okay, now I’ve made it, but you every time you get into a magazine, and I’ve been in hundreds and written my books, and you know they’re all little stepping stones, so I don’t think there’s one thing that’s going to make you all of a sudden be the star, and you know we’ve all, you know, I always, I remember like getting articles, the up and coming artists, you know, like, you know, when we’re young, all of a sudden, now 40 years are passed, you know, now we’re the old guys, you know, like that old guy, he’s still alive, they say,”Oh, Kevin’s still alive, you know, it seems like it goes in a blink of an eye, in a way, and you know, so again, finding your path, that you enjoy the process, I think, is important to it. The struggles, I guess, I’ve always accepted the struggles. One of the hardest things for me that I have dealt with was always extremely shy, you know. I didn’t, you know, I couldn’t go in front of people in school, you know, I, I got out of even oral book reports. My teacher knew I couldn’t do it without passing out, so she let me illustrate my book reports, and I think that was her name was mrs. Penny, so I love her to this day, that she helped me, you know, one more stepping stone of doing my art, and when I became a fine artist and was asked to teach, I literally had to go to a hypnotist for eight weeks just to get the courage to get in front of the people the first time, and and I would just have sweat attacks, and into this day when I still do keynote speaking for the Portrait Society, or the Plein Air Convention, or wherever it might be. I just was in Ireland a couple of weeks ago, and did that at the Art in the Open. I still have anxiety about that. So, overcoming that for me as part of my career, as getting out in front of people and sharing teaching, which is very rewarding to me, and I really see that’s one of the best things I think the art has given me the opportunity to share that knowledge through my books and my workshops, but overcoming that fear that I had my whole life is one of the. Biggest struggles, but it’s important that I force myself to do it, so I can add that much more part to my art life.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:08

Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I can imagine how it’s fascinating, because as artists, it’s a very solitary career, it’s a very in your studio or away from people in your own little world type of career, but it’s, it’s amazing to think that it’s actually quite a social career, especially if you want to, you know, sell your work or have some success, right? You have to put yourself out there, so it’s, it’s very important, like you said, to overcome that. Wow, that’s amazing.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 5:42

Yeah. yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 5:44

so actually now that we’re on the topic of success, right, because obviously success has different meanings for everyone, but in terms of your career, what do you find has been the greatest key to your success?

Kevin Macpherson: 6:02

I think just continuing to do it, you know, to continue to strive to improve, and, and that word, improving, or, you know, is tricky. It’s more like an evolution, I think. You know, there’s things I painted 30 years ago I couldn’t do today, and maybe some of those are my finest paintings, you know, like never know when you’re going to get that great one, so you know moving forward every day and continuing, you might get that great one. There’s. I was just in Ireland, as I mentioned, and I went back to a location that was near one of my best paintings I ever done. It was called Celtic Brilliance. That painting I did it, and the day before I painted that painting on location, I had eight weeks of painting in Ireland that I was just doing some miserable stuff. At least mentally, I got really depressed, and I never got that. For I don’t know why, but I was.. I had one of my worst painting days right before my best painting day. So we never really know when that’s going to happen, when. when all of a sudden something clicks, something works, and as I said, the evolution, as I continue to do new subjects or try different things, I evolve, and so sometimes my evolution, you know, my collectors sometimes say, “Oh, your work is changing, and I know what they mean by that. They mean I don’t like it anymore, you know. I prefer what you were doing before, and so.. and that that happens. So, again, you have to, you know, trust yourself that you’re moving in a place that might get you somewhere. So, sometimes we go down a path that you get worse for a while, right before something new happens.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:09

Kevin’s point about stepping stones is one I keep coming back to. Success isn’t a destination that you arrive at, it’s something you keep redefining as you move, but staying in motion, especially when things aren’t working requires something beyond talent, it requires structure. Joseph Gurksack came up as a professional illustrator before transitioning to fine art, and that background gave him something a lot of studio artists don’t have: business discipline. He had a lot to say about what consistency, community, and honest feedback actually do for a career,

Joseph Gyurcsak: 8:41

you have to have an organized business artist, or well, let’s, let’s phrase it this way, professional graphic artist, or professional illustrator, at least in my time of coming up, you really had to be quite the business person, very organized, and you had several different hats at the time, you had, you know, your part where you had your skill, and you could do whatever you needed to do as far as being called to the job, but you also had to be able to communicate well with the different companies that you were working with, and you also had to understand your own accounting. You also have to understand how to be organized in your, in your studio, and deliver a job on time, and get have good rep record keeping, be your own photographer, and you know, at the end of the day, if you take, if you look at the total job description of any of these, and this certainly applies to fine artists too, but I like to say. There is an abundance of illustrators that became fine artists and became very successful painters in the fine art world, because they had the discipline in their illustration career, so that illustration career discipline really helped me in the studio, when I come into work, my studio is usually very organized, and I know exactly where I’m going and what I’m trying to do to get accomplished for that work, because I have galleries that need, you know, want the next painting or this, that so it having a structure and having a plan always in the beginning, not as much now, because I’ve accomplished many, many of my goals and been very blessed that way, but in the very beginning I was doing various self-help tapes and things like Tony Robbins and all this stuff, and trying to find structure to my career and trying to find, you know, the steps that needed to be done. One year, the five year, 10 year, what does that look like? Where do you want to be? You have to know where you’re going to get there, so you have to have steps, and even though if you write out these steps, you might not accomplish them exactly the way it goes, but at least you have some sort of direction, and you will see if you journal your steps and your path, you will see that you most likely you will accomplish a lot of things on that list, you’ll be able to tick them off and say I’m on to the next thing and check it off. So, yeah, I’m all about that. That really, when I was struggling as a transition from an illustrator to a fine artist, I was really struggling for order and direction, and I didn’t know how that would happen to become a fine artist. I didn’t even know what that meant. I was getting in really good galleries right off the bat, and I had no idea how good they were, and I blew some of those relationships. So, I learned really early on, whoa, this was a bad thing, and I can’t get back in that gallery now, so yeah, no, you, you learn along the way, you have to have failure, you have to have failure, so you just gotta own up to where your weaknesses are, and then you have to work on them, because you’re going to have really good strengths, and then you’re going to have areas where you really have to focus on, hey, this is a deficit. Hey, I might be a really great painter, but I’m really disorganized, and I can’t deliver these paintings in time. What’s going on here? How can I do this better? So you always have to ask the question, how can I do this better? And if you get into a rhythm and a full blow, and you start to see, you know, hey, this worked. I’m having success. I’m getting into shows. I’m, you know, again selling the paintings, you know. You stay in that mode, and you slowly work in that, and you improve and extend yourself a little bit more. There was another turning point was in the early 90s. Artist magazine had John Howard Sandin, keys to success. He was a portrait pair. He’s now passed away, but he had 17 steps. I know if I’m saying this now, people are going to ask you for it, so I’ll send

Donald Yatomi: 13:42

you a copy

Joseph Gyurcsak: 13:42

of it, but yeah, I followed those 17 steps. It’s not something you could do in a week, a month, a year. It’s going to take many years to do the 17 steps if you really do them right, but that I credit with giving me the power, the direction, the organization to become what you term as a professional, right? Because you know at some point you’re going to like, if I can liken it to, I tell my kids, I, you show up to a demo and everything changes. Well, and you planned on doing something a certain way, and you had to lecture a certain way, and this and that, and you were going to do this painting. It was pre-planned, and now you have hundreds of people watching you do this painting, and everything is wrong. Everything changes. Well, being a professional is having the ability to move when you need to, and change when you need to, and be seamless, and that that’s not something you can.. oh, I got to train to be prepared, that happens over time through our unfortunate failures, you know, and people don’t like to hear that, but you have to learn through. To the things that you did in the past. Oh boy, man, I really failed there. I’ve got to do better than that. So I have found that to be, you know, like so many other people have said, you know, the win when you’re winning, there’s nothing to learn from that. That’s just a lot of fun. It’s the end point of something, but there’s nothing to learn from that. It’s just the glory, right? But when, when you’re going through stuff and you have to continually make adjustments, that’s when you’re really growing. It’s a couple things, I think. Being.. I wrote down some things. being inflexible is really bad, you know, if something is, you can work on something, and you can be determined to push it through, and you can give something that respectful time to develop it, but if you keep running into a wall and there’s absolutely no breakout, you really have to have some self reflection and look back, doesn’t mean that you have to change everything, but there may be some adjustments you have to do to make your idea or your journey or whatever it is, work better, so being inflexible is not always a good thing. You can be stubborn and say I’m holding on to this, this is what I’m going to do in this night, that’s great to a certain point, but I think you have to be able to take criticism, and you have to be able to sometimes allow yourself to hear other people’s opinion, and you have to reflect on that once you hear it, because it may be a difference maker. There may be, say, if you’re in your own little mode for a long time and you haven’t reached out to anyone, it’s probably a good idea to join a group or be part of something that’s bigger than you, so that you can get feedback and the relationships that you develop as an artist over time are pretty invaluable. I have so many artists that I can reach out to, and they reach out to me just for a quick conversation to hear how they’re doing, what we’re doing, what’s happening, what are you struggling with, that type of thing is really, we’re just trying to get rid of this email here. Yeah, those kind of things be consistent. Being consistent is probably the biggest downer that I see with the young artists that aren’t being successful. The reason why they’re not being successful is they’re probably having a consistency issue. So, if you had some success with something like I said earlier, maintain that, do that over again. Don’t start a new foundation somewhere else. I mean, it’s all in these success books and tapes, and whatever you want to, I mean, you hear these things over and over, but there is true that has it’s valid, you, if you find something that’s working, stay with it, do more of it, you know, and do it to the highest degree, and don’t compromise on the level of product that you’re going to put out there, it has to be your very best every time, and then the next one should be better than that one, so you’re always trying to up your game, and also, like John Howard Sanders said, hit your self to a star for a time, be with someone else that has already made it, and that you’re really loving their career. You don’t have to copy them, but you have to see how what’s making their thing tick so well, and how are they doing it, and if you can get in a situation where you can get a into a mentor program as a young artist. It’s really valuable to get that, that personal time, one on one with a, with an experienced artist, and get that feedback, what they really need to hear, what you, what you really need to hear. As far as, hey, you’re over here now, but you’ve got to do these things to get over there, and what’s your goal? Okay, again, where are you going, and what are the steps that you’re going to need to get there? We have to figure that out and break that down, figure out what you know, what are your weaknesses, where do. Have to work on those things, you know, that type of stuff. That mentality will get you there. And being disciplined, like I said, going in the studio, doing, having a certain time and a certain place to work. I remember we didn’t move too far from our other house, it’s just a block away, made the big move. My wife, my wife, God bless her, Lisa. She, when I was starting out as an illustrator, she’s like, yeah. And I was teaching in this back room, and then we started having children. She’s like, you can’t do this in here, and they’re like, well, where am I going to do it? She’s like, no, you have to have a separate studio in the yard or something. I said, well, how’s that going to happen? We can’t do that. Yes, we can start looking at buildings and figure out what we’re going to build there. So I’m like, really, and she’s like, yeah, you need it. So I built, we had this barn built in the backyard, and that was my studio, and you’d walk down there, and the students could go down there, and I could do my work down there, and I could do my teaching, and it was, it was a valuable thing. You have to have a set workplace with limited distraction. It’s very, very good for you to have a place that you can go to, and, like I said before, that’s well organized, so that when you’re ready to work, you know, look, the reality is, when you’re a young artist, unless you’re really successful right off the bat, you’re going to have to have other jobs. That was my journey, I had really rough spots, and I had all these other jobs and things, and the main thing that kept me on course was teaching to other artists, so that I could always have my head in the game, and the second other thing that I always prided myself on was keeping the studio in an organized fashion, ready to go. Everything was ready to work when the inspiration happened, because if you’re going to have to clean up for four hours before you do a painting, it ain’t going to happen. So, and if you have a limited amount of time, I have over the years, over my journey, have sometimes very limited time to paint, so when I come in, it’s I’m a nighttime painter. A lot of times I do a painting and I’m ready to go. I turn the light on, I can work, I’m organized. That kind of stuff will give you success, especially if you’re on the journey. You start selling your paintings and enter shows, you have to be part of programs, find out where you, where your home is, where you feel most invited with whatever artist group, because there’s going to be groups that you may, maybe never can get in, but there might be other artist groups that you’ll be really accepted in some society on the I’m in the Oil Painters of America as a signature member, and I’m a signature member of the American Society Impressionist Society. So I have gained the level of signature level, and that takes a while to do that, but I’m part of those groups. I know all the artists in those groups, they know me. It’s a great relationship. It’s nice to have that support around you as you’re growing as an artist, and also it kicks your butt a little bit when you go to a show and you see some amazing pains, you’re like, “Damn, you know, I gotta my game a little bit more here, you know, because I remember the first time I got in Oil Painters America, I went there and I was like, okay, this is why I couldn’t get in for like eight years, because I smelled the paintings and they were like, wow, they kick ass, so okay, it’s a wake-up call. Okay, this is at another level. So, and same thing with the American Precious. I love those guys, and you go to the show, and you’re like, God, all right. I love my painting, but look at that thing, you know? Like, it’s good to do that. It sharpens you, you know? Does that make sense? All that stuff, right?

Laura Arango Baier: 24:24

Yeah, definitely. Because I understand, you know, we, a lot of us become artists because we’re very independent, we’re very introverted, we’re very sometimes shy, and we almost exist in a bit of a vacuum, right? We don’t really have a community, we stay in our studio, we paint all day, so I, it is a great, great thing, like you’re saying, to go out, meet other artists, and feel a little bit challenged every so often in, in your ways, because they’re also growth might stagnate, you know, it might be very hard to continue that growth if you’re still doing the same thing over and over without. Maybe shifting that vision by saying the

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:04

feedback,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:05

yes, yes, that is so key, yes, and actually that goes seamlessly into my next question, which is, What do you find has been the key to your success,

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:22

I am. I’ve been always a competitive person. I don’t want to say I was a full jock kind of person, but I was in sports, I was in football, I was in track, I was a captain of the track team. I think those early on things were good for me, because I had struggled. I didn’t really learn, and this may be sound shocking to you, but I didn’t really learn to read or write till I was in my 30s. So, the key to my success is perseverance and determination, sheer determination. I’ll, well, first of all, you asked me early on my journey. I, you don’t choose to be an artist, you don’t wake up one day and say you’re going to be an artist. I, at least, I don’t look at that way. Yeah, people can want to become a painter and everything, but it for me in the soul, I mean, really, when you get down to it, I don’t, it’s a calling, it’s a calling, because there’s no way that you can stay with something for 50 years, I’ve been painting for 50 years, there’s no way you could stay into for something with all the ups and downs that you would be able to come out on the other side in a better way if you weren’t fully committed to it, you know, and it was a passion, and it’s one thing to have a passion that’s good and that’s important, but you also have to have a burning desire, and you have to have, you know, that determination to follow through, and, like I said, I have changed God so many times over the years. There was a time where I was a Trump Lloyd type painter in the beginning, and I knew that that wasn’t my calling. I felt it, it wasn’t me, I could render like so many other artists, and I loved that stuff, but it wasn’t me. So I had to keep going on the journey and find out where I really lived, and it all has to do with that perseverance, that determination, staying focused, and never giving up. The hardest times, when you’re about to give up, I could tell you from my 50 year journey as a painter, when I was just about ready to throw the talent, something great would happen, because I had the fishing line out there for multiple things, and then as I got the bad news about, oh, you’re not accepted in this show, you didn’t do this, you didn’t sell this, and then one good thing would happen and pull me along again, so you know, in order to, to, you know, keep going, you definitely have to get, like I said, the feedback, you have to get your peer, you know, feedback is really important, because when you, when you are involved with other things beyond your studio, those things help lift you up and give you more confidence. So, I know artists are going to lack confidence when they’re, when they’re failing and they’re struggling. It’s important to say you have to just keep working through it, and, and I remember one time there’s so many turning points in my life, if you think about 50 years, but I was really down and having a really hard time and pretty depressed, and my wife said to me, Why are you doing this? And I said, she said, You used to do this because you loved it, and now I don’t see that in you, and my God, those words were so penetrating, because I thought, oh my God, she’s right. Originally I did this because I loved it, not because of all these other things, whether it worked out or not. And every time I come in the studio now, I think about I’m doing this, and I’m blessed because I can do this thing and I can do it well and I appreciate just the the ability to do it, I think when you’re in order to have success, if I could wrap that up in something. And share that with the artists, is that you, you have to, you have to be completely free, your mind has to be clear, and that’s the point where you’re in the zone, and you’re creating something incredible that sometimes after you finish the creation, you don’t even know how you arrived there, and then that work or that art I have found when I share that, that speaks to the volume of people out there, and there’s something undeniable about you painting some truth with your own vision, with your own heart, and if it comes out extraordinary, there’s something that can’t be denied about that. I have entered paintings that I was like, you know, this is this is this painting is like something to me, it’s like, and other people feel it, whether it wins an award or not, but I get you get feedback, especially on social media now, but when you put it out there and people are giving you feedback, it’s not, oh, I just need that feedback to survive, but it’s important because you have a certain, you put a part of you out there, and when you put that part of you out there, and it’s sincere, and it’s real, and it’s part of you. People are definitely going to recognize that, and I could say, you know, there is no term for being original or finding your style. Just paint where your gut and be free in your mind, and do your work, and the rest of it will will all fall into place, as if you just keep working at it, you know. Yeah, there are skill levels that need to be addressed, and all this stuff, if you want to reach a certain representational painting, or whatever, whatever painting, it doesn’t have to be anything like I’m doing, or like any other artists do, but you’ll find your zone if you’re really digging down deep and you’re following that path, and then you start sharing that path. I think a lot of artists I had students over the years that they were coming for a long time, they wouldn’t enter their paintings and anything, and I’m like, no, you have to put that out there, you have to put that out there, you’ve been in this journey, and you know, now you start need to share, so just Saturday mornings with, I’m not traveling, I have a Saturday morning class here, and I’ve been doing that forever, you know, it’s my way giving back. So, two of my students, three of my students were telling me about awards that they recently won, and they were so excited about it. Now, I’ve been working with these artists for a couple years, and I’m like, yes, that’s what, not the awards, so much, but the fact that they put their work out there and let people see it. You can’t really just live in that bubble and do the work, do the work. I know other artists that have never taken their work out, and I’m like, this is fabulous, you need to enter this or that, and they won’t do it, but you know that’s their loss. I mean, I feel like when you create a painting, it’s got to go out into the world. My wish is that yes, it’s going out to the world, it’s going to find that. I just had a call from my gallery yesterday, one of my pains, the woman said she has to have the painting, she has, if she doesn’t, she’ll be sad. My God, what better compliment for success do you need to hear than that? Like, the person is actually emotionally attached to it before they even bought

Scott Ruthven: 33:55

it. Like,

Joseph Gyurcsak: 33:55

that’s it. You made the connection. You only have to make a connection to one person at a time, when you’re selling their paintings, too,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:04

that idea of feedback as a lifeline, not just ego validation, but real directional information came up again and again, and so did the question of what’s actually driving you when you walk into the studio. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 18th of July with our special guest, Timothy Tyler. You can find the signup link in the show notes. At Boldbrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, be. Because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity, and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles, and a free monthly art contest, open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that, to sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s B O L D B R U S H show.com The FASO Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e-commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So, if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com, that’s FASO.com. SC Mummert has built a career that runs almost entirely on intentionality, he spent six weeks away from the brush just to understand the marketing, and what he discovered changed how he thought about creating altogether.

SC Mummert: 36:49

I’m just going to say it, because I think it’s fair. You know, your own work ethic, your own self-discipline will have a tremendous impact on your own success. I feel, you know there’s not going to be anybody to wake up and force you to go down to the studio and do this, you know, and ideally you don’t need that anyway, but still it’s not there, and so you have to have a level of drive, you know, to go ahead and I would say achieve to achieve any success, as I mean, I’m an entrepreneur, I would say that any, any artist that’s out trying to do will say what I do. You have to be, you’ve got all these different hats you’ve got to put on, you know, where you’ve got your shipping hat, you’ve got your, you know, maybe your marketing hat, you’ve got all these different things that you got to do as an entrepreneur, and so forth. And so, you know, that all takes a level of ambition and drive to go ahead and see that through, and you’ve got to have that work ethic to make that, you know, to make that function, and that directly to me, that directly correlates into, you know, how much success you experience on some level. I think there’s, there’s that that interactive thing that, you know, my dad used to say, the harder you work, the luckier you got, you know. And I think that that’s there’s some truth to that, you know. If you have that, if you roll your sleeves up and you apply yourself because you love what you do, you know, when that happens, then it’s remarkable what can unfold, you know. And again, I’ve experienced that. I’ve been very privileged to be allowed to do what I love for a living, you know. Grateful that is, that should probably be everybody’s question that we need to ask ourselves. What happened to me? So, what happened to me? About, I’ll make it up here, because it’s, it’s, it’s almost like I can’t tell what a year is anymore, because a year goes by for me, it feels like about 90 days or something, it’s just, it’s pretty odd, but so I’ll just say, like, four years ago, maybe five years ago, I became disgusted with my own lack of understanding about marketing, and so I went ahead and put the brushes down for, I think, like six weeks, which is quite a spell. And then began to just read everything I could and try to immerse myself into this and really get a better understanding on marketing, and which helped. All that was beneficial. Then I went ahead and found a couple of coaches. I, in fact, I’m still working with a guy out of Australia, and there’s another guy out of.. I was, I was getting coached by two guys, whenever out of Australia, the other guy out of Atlanta, Georgia, and I’d have these weekly coaching sessions, you know, when they were helping me with marketing, and. and that transformed me also, because there’s it’s very comprehensive, actually, in what happens when you begin to understand and get a better grip and dig into marketing, it actually helps you in the creation of your art. You wouldn’t think it would necessarily, but what it begins to do, it helps you start to. It a grip on your audience that you’re creating the art for, and so, for example, like we’ll just use Nashville, that maybe that’s the Center for Country Western Music, we’ll say those guys know exactly what their audience is, you know, I, and when they craft a song for their audience, and they, they’re making a song that they enjoy that they love making, but they also understand what their listeners and what their audience, what will appeal to them, and so it’s a win-win. And so, what happens once you begin to understand marketing and maybe building an avatar for the kind of person you’re in fact trying to create your product for, and so forth, and I’m not saying make something that you don’t like, that’s not my point, but the very, the very best thing that can happen is that you find something that you enjoy making and you find out it’s also happens to be something that the audience is seeking, and so when you, when you, when you have that convergence like that, which is happening in my own life, frankly, right now, so when that, when that happens, then you have the best of best of everything, because it’s all synergistic, you know, and so, but that a lot of that understanding with with marketing and so forth continues to affect almost everything that I do right now, including concepts for paintings, and so forth, and you know that creative element, that’s it’s a little mysterious, even to me, you know that. How you can kind of put all this together, and, and go to sleep, and wake up in the morning, you’ve got an idea that maybe you didn’t have when you went to sleep, and maybe you’re subconscious and worked on that, whatever, I don’t know, but the bottom line is that something pops out, but this marketing element actually influences that as well, you know, whatever you, whatever pops out of you, you know, and then that again affects what you end up producing, and so as far as marketing, so what happens is this is this is interesting because marketing will always take time. Marketing will take time. Now, the marketing, the time could be you, besides some easels at a park with your work, and you’re talking, you’re interacting with people that may walk by in the park, and you’re maybe you’re talking to them about, you know, them buying your art, that’s taking time, took time to set the easels up to drive there, set your art up, and so forth, time, so there’s all that investment of time, so that same little micro example of is can be applied to almost everything, you, there’s always time spent to end up being a success in art via via some marketing vehicle, and that vehicle can be the thing in the park. It can also be a gallery. The gallery is simply a vehicle to market your art. A show can be a vehicle to market your art, and so on and so forth. So, as long as we understand the vehicle and the price we’re going to pay, whether it’s time or a percentage that you give away of money rather than your time to stand there, you know, so forth. It’s all picking a vehicle, and what’s going to be the most successful fit for you. Maybe it’s time on Facebook, you know, maybe it’s, you know, however that’s done. Maybe a social media like I’m saying, you know, it’s just finding the vehicle that fits your own pre-elections, and you know what you feel is going to be your time spent best with your, you know, your personality, and that’s all that’s all marketing. And in my particular instance, I work hand in glove with the galleries that I’m in, and we, it’s pretty remarkable, because it takes a very special gallery to work with me. I’ll just, I’ll just say that, and that’s that’s no criticism against anybody else. It’s, it’s just what I, what we have. Part of the reason why I have, I would say I would assign my success to is that I have galleries that I can take and give concepts to, and they will spend the time to take these concepts, and maybe I’ll give them maybe eight concepts. I’ll pick the number eight, and I’ll say, well, here these are concepts that I’ve come up with. What do you think about that? And what they’ll do is they’ll actually take their high net or ultra high net worth clientele that they have this relationship with that I don’t have that they’ve gone ahead and fostered and poured themselves into, but they’ll take the initiative to go ahead and run those concepts past their clientele, and then the clientele will say, well, I think these, I don’t like it, because I like them all, but that doesn’t mean that the clients will, the people with the money, and so they’ll go ahead and say, well, here I, these, and maybe they’ll pick three or four out of the eight that are winners, and so then I’ll go ahead and produce the three or 4p Paintings will say, and I know you’ll be shocked to hear they’re selling before they’re off the easel. In many cases, because they’re virtually pre-sold. In fact, I had - there’s a national show here in the West Coast that wanted me in the show, and a guy got a hold of me on behalf of the guy running the show, and he said,”Well, here we just want a painting, he’s mummer. He says,”I don’t care what it is, we just want one of your paintings in the show. And I said, “Well, gosh, that’s flattering. I said,”I don’t have anything. And he said, “Come on, every artist has got paintings hanging around their studio. I said, “Dude. I said, “I don’t. I said, “Come on over. He was a local guy that called me, and he said, “No. I said, “His name was Mark. I said, Mark, come over to the studio, you find a painting you can put in the show. I said, I’m wiped out. The only painting I have is on the easel. Now that’s a.. any.. he said, really? I said, Mark, yes, you know. And I said, if it wasn’t that way, something’s wrong, you know? Because, because I want.. I want that’s the level of success that I hope for, you know. And so, in the good news is that I’m very blessed that that’s been happening that way, and but I’m trying to give you kind of a glimpse behind the scenes of the mechanics that, so there’s this marketing stuff that’s affecting the way that I create the concepts, and I get feedback from my galleries as well, they’ll tell me, well, they don’t like this, and this is why they didn’t like it, but they’d like this, and this is why they like that, and so forth. So I’m getting all this live feedback, and I feel that all success is based on a all progress. I’ll just say it this way, all progress is based on a on a feedback loop, on an accurate feedback loop. So if you saw, I couldn’t even walk to my car if I did, if I close my eyes, which are my feedback loop, if I, if, if I try to walk to my car, maybe my hands become my feedback loop, or a stick, you know, and I can try to find my way to my car, but it’s all based on feedback, and that’s critical to an artist, because what happens if we don’t have feedback, if we, and that could be that could be feedback from someone standing at at their easels in the park, and people are, and they’re talking, then they’re interacting, and they’ll say, well, gee, you know, I, I like this landscape here, but I don’t like the dog you painted here, and, well, why not, you know? And then you can start to get this feedback, so that’s all that will all benefit you, and maybe sometimes we don’t like hearing that, but I think it’s all beneficial. I think even the bad stuff will help us, you know. We can go.. well, I don’t think I’m going to do that again. We can, we can learn, but it’s all based on this, on this feedback. And my galleries are very, very efficient and very good at doing it with me. And not every gallery is prepared to do that. There was a gallery I was up in Carmel, California, which is an amazing small town. Have you been there? So

Laura Arango Baier: 47:51

good things,

SC Mummert: 47:52

it’s amazing, and it’s just as high net worth. We’ll just say very charming town that has.. last time I was up there. They had 82 galleries in this little small area, so just mind blowing. And so I poked my head in. I was actually asking marketing questions to one of the sales guys in this large gallery up there, and they said, “Well, here, just.. and so he introduced me to the owner, and I said, ‘Listen, I’m an artist, I don’t want to take your time, you know, if you’re busy, please, you know, I’ll let you go. Oh, no, no. And so they wanted to talk to me. And so then, well, what, you’re an artist, look, let me see your art. And so the easiest thing these days is to whip your phone out, you know, and you can show somebody a picture of your art. Well, the next thing I know, they’ve got the other owner in, and they’ve got me back in a room, and they want to carry my art, you know, and which I mean, wow, that’s very flattering. I appreciate that. And so we’re talking about percentages and all that stuff, you know. Okay. Well, we’ll see. Well, as it turned out, the reason why I bring that up, as it turned out, they were not prepared. They said what they said. They said,”Listen, you make 10 paintings, and then we’ll pick six out of the 10 that we like, and we’ll take the six, and I thought, well, if I do 10 paintings, I want all 10 to sell, I don’t want to just have four back in my studio, right, and so, and I said, well, you know, I need, okay, because every region and market is different, so Carmel will have a different market than Santa Fe, New Mexico, and Santa Fe, New Mexico will have a different market than downtown New York City, you know, so forth, and so you ideally you’re creating just like the Nashville with the country was, you know, you’re creating product that’s going to be a success in that market, and they weren’t willing to spend the time to give me the feedback to be a success, I felt, you know, in their market, and I understand that I’m not here to criticize that. It’s just that I, I’m looking for a gallery, and actually, in fact, I’m fortunate to work with galleries that will invest that time, and it’s been very successful for both of us. Franklin,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:01

that convergence he describes making what you love and discovering it’s also what your audience needs, that’s the thing every artist is chasing, whether they name it or not. But getting there takes showing up consistently over years in the practical, unglamorous ways. Scott Ruthven is one of those artists who brings a genuinely unusual lens to all of this. He came to painting after a long career in business, and it shows in the best possible way.

Scott Ruthven: 50:27

I was thinking about this last night, so I’ll start off with just bookkeeping and accounting, which seems kind of left field here, right? But it is one of those things. If you’re going to be selling your work, then you need to have those skills. It doesn’t have to be hard, but what’s really hard is if you wait all year and you try to remember what happened. That’s crazy, but you know there’s a lot of tax advantages. Everything as an artist, you know, if you’re going to paint, all your materials, all your time, your travel expenses are all tax deductible, so if you’re going to claim the income and pay taxes on that, you should look for and record and keep track of your deductions as well, but it can be a lot, so but I do think about that as a business. This is my business here, and I try to keep up with that. I do keep up with it on a daily basis. It’s part of my workflow, so bookkeeping is, you know, what I would say, accounting scares people away, but it’s bookkeeping, recording your mileage, recording your sales, that kind of thing. So that came really natural to me, but so beyond that kind of, you know, mired down in the weeds bookkeeping stuff, you know, I became comfortable speaking to large audiences, being accountable to goals, and my communication clarity, and communication promptness, you know, having a product like we said that looks good, it looks good from the back, it’s got certificate of authenticity, it’s got the little things that people care about as a product, right? The frames clean, it doesn’t have little smudges of fingerprints. I can’t tell you how many times I go into galleries and you see a frame full of fingerprints and dust, and you know the artist has just reused that thing over and over again, or somebody has. You know, my business career taught me that, you know, those details matter, and you know another example is if you’re you’re in a show or you’re not even going to a gallery, but you’re in a show and you’ve got to ship work, follow the instructions, be prompt replying to emails, the coordinator, whoever’s putting that work in to mount that show really appreciates that, and when you’re somebody you want them to say, “Gosh, you were a pleasure to work with. When you can do that, Who I have so many examples where my name was top of mind with somebody because of a good experience, right? And then when an opportunity came up, my name was in the top of their top of their mind, and so I got another opportunity, because they thought of me, you know. So it’s those details we got to produce good work, but that’s kind of the given. It’s all the other things, which can be a mountain of work. Honestly, it is running a business. You got to think about it as a business, try to be profitable, try to build on whatever you’re building, so you’ve got a network, you’ve got collector base, you’ve got social media following, all of these things you’re saying yes to opportunities, lot of times we don’t, I want to say no to an opportunity, I don’t really.. there was a movie a few years ago, probably too long ago, but I think it was called Yes Man, and he couldn’t say no to something, and it changed his life, that’s kind of, you know, the nutshell.. I couldn’t remember all the details, but to a point, you shouldn’t just say yes to everything and you’re chasing your tail, wasting all your time, but there are a lot of great opportunities that come up, and they might be scary because they push you out of your comfort zone, but you have to say yes, because you never know where they’re going to lead, who you’re going to meet. I meet fascinating people when I travel to these shows, or I plan air paint. Sometimes I pinch myself. I think, how do I.. some of the people I know and have met, and the experiences that I’ve gotten to do, I never would have if I weren’t like a TV personality or a rock star or something. I think, wow, this is amazing life. So, it can be a great life as an artist. Get out there, be uncomfortable, be professional, and you know, set, and then let’s talk about goals for a minute. Goal setting is another thing I learned from business, and I think can be a struggle for artists. There’s a great book that I recommend by Gary Keller, and it’s called The One Thing, and this book, The Essence of It, I read it two or three times when. You know, basically every year for a few years when I first found it, because I thought it was a great reminder, and it’s about, you know, how you, you set a goal for yourself, and the goal might be lofty, right? You want to be a self-supporting professional artist. Well, that’s hard to undertake at one thing, and it seems daunting, and maybe you procrastinate because you don’t know where to start, and so the whole concept of the one thing, which you should read, because there’s probably a lot more to it than I remember, but my key takeaway that changed my life in business, and this was years before doing art full time, but you know, you take that thing, you have your goal, you got to know where you’re going first of all, but then every day when you get up if you think about your goal, and you think, well, what’s one one thing I could do today? The smallest little thing, it doesn’t matter, what’s that one thing I could do today to move me in that direction. And that should be one of your top priorities, and you should do that before you get sucked into the rest of your day. You have alignment where you want to go, and then you’ve got just one little thing, and you think I could do that one thing today. Maybe it’s like I haven’t sent a newsletter. I’ve never sent a newsletter. It intimidates me. Well, what’s the one thing I could do today? I go into my Faso website and look at that newsletter link in there, and see what it takes, and just open that today. Maybe that’s your one thing. So, now you got past that scary thing. Well, tomorrow is all right. You know what? Maybe I’ll just write down an outline of what a monthly email or newsletter would be, and what you.. you know what happens is success builds on success. You say, I already moved forward a little bit, I can do this, and pretty soon you know we way underestimate what we overestimate what we can do in the short term, and then we weigh underestimate what we can achieve in a long period of time, or in a long distance of time, and you know it’s just I see that over and over in myself, if I move forward a little bit at a time on a regular basis toward a goal that I’m really sure of, and this is really, you know, trying to review your goals every day, do they align with where you are, who you want to be, where you want to be, and then thinking about that one thing, and you know, some days that one thing turns into five things, but you look back over a year and you know you’re amazed. I do a YouTube video or a YouTube channel, and I was looking at that. I pulled it up here. I have 78 videos on there now. If I, at the beginning of that thought. Okay, I need to start a YouTube and film 78 videos. I would be completely overwhelmed and never start. I can’t even really believe that I’ve done 78 videos, which you know isn’t a whole lot. There’s people with hundreds and hundreds, right? But for me, I look at that and I can barely even remember doing all of that work. It just seems like, how did it grow, but it was just doing one at a time, a little bit at a time, whatever I had the energy for, and you know, then back over time, that’s something that’s built on itself. People have subscribed, it gets more views, I’m reaching more people, I sell more art, I sell art from that kind of thing. So that’s a great book, and definitely one of the skills that I got from business is goal setting and holding myself accountable to achieving results over a period of time, so setting the timeframe for yourself and going after it as small in chunks as you need to for your your work and life situation

Laura Arango Baier: 58:42

through the one small thing today. I love that, because it makes the overwhelming feel possible. But all of these definitions of success - discipline, structure, marketing, community - they all still assume you know what you’re building toward, and that’s actually the harder question. Donald Yatomi came from the corporate video game world, which means he has a very particular perspective on what it costs to trade freedom for security and what it means to finally stop.

Donald Yatomi: 59:06

I mean, at the end of the day, it’s like you’re gonna, you’re gonna flourish, and you know, flourish. When I use the word flourish, it doesn’t always equate to money. It’s like, what, what is success to you, right? What, it’s man, when I was like, when I was working in the corporate world, doing video games, man, they pay you a lot of money, but you’re, you’re not really happy, you know what I mean, because you’re in this corporate structure, there’s so many rules and policies, and then it’s a collaboration decision in regards to art, so you got the whole world deciding what your art is supposed to look like in video games, right? So, and that’s your typical corporate structure, anyways, and you’re sitting. Sitting on the computer from Monday through Friday for eight to 10 hours, and you’re stuck, you know what I mean. And you know, for people that like to travel or take vacations, you have to go through all these steps to get permission to be allowed to go, and you know, it took me a long time to realize that, man, it’s like that’s you’re giving up your freedom for money, so it’s like, where do you put success? So that’s why I told you that I love that last webinar with with John Master, or Don

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:40

John, yeah,

Donald Yatomi: 1:00:41

he was able to articulate, I gotta watch it again, but he, he was able to articulate what was success to him, right? So it’s a balance between income, freedom, and doing what you love to do, right? So that’s you just got to put where, where your importance are

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:01

income, freedom, and doing what you love- three things that seem simple until you try to hold all of them at once. What strikes me about every one of these conversations is that success doesn’t get easier to define the longer you’re in it. If anything, it gets more personal, more specific, more yours. The goal posts move, and maybe that’s not a failure of ambition. Maybe that’s just what growth feels like. Thanks for listening. If something from today’s episode landed with you, I’d love to hear it. Reach out, leave a review, or share this with an artist in your life who’s in the middle of figuring it out. That’s what this community is for.

We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

Einstein's Secret: Stop Thinking to Think Anew

Information is not knowledge. The only source of knowledge is experience. You need experience to gain wisdom.” – Albert Einstein.

I have always found this quote fascinating. One of the brightest minds of the 20^th century claims that knowledge is not information.

For Einstein, knowledge doesn’t come by thinking:

“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.”

Einstein was famous for his deep, solitary contemplation. He often spent hours, even days, immersed in thought, walking, scribbling in notebooks, or just staring out the window.

He once said: “I think and think for months, for years. Ninety-nine times, the conclusion is false. The hundredth time I am right.”

This hundredth time, however, wasn’t the result of thinking but of “swimming in silence.”

Einstein was a genius not because of how well he thought or solved mathematical problems, but because he realized that thinking itself might be a problem. He said:

“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.”

In other words, we must die to our familiar way of thinking in order to think differently. When we think the way we have always thought, we keep creating the same set of problems.

And those problems are unsolvable from the same level of consciousness that gave rise to them.

Einstein realized that true knowledge is not so much a matter of solving mathematical problems as of renouncing a particular type of consciousness.

What type of consciousness?

The one that thinks of knowledge as something we gain by collecting data points. Einstein found that truth comes to him when he ceases thinking.

In other words, truth is not something we reach out and grab – it is something that comes to us.

It is not something we seize but something that seizes us.

Truth comes – strikes us – as a revelation of Wonder. No wonder Einstein himself said:

“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is.”

He saw everything as a miracle.

He understood that if you reduce knowledge to information, you will want to collect as much data as possible. You will equate knowing with seizing data.

But this is exactly the type of consciousness that creates problems. We must realize that truth cannot be seized – it comes of its own accord. It reveals itself to a certain type of consciousness.

It reveals itself to a consciousness that humbly sees everything as a miracle. Such a consciousness is patient. It can wait for years until something suddenly becomes clear and lucid.

As Søren Kierkeggardt said:

“You cannot have the truth in such a way that you catch it, but only in such a way that it catches you.”

When we become too greedy for information, we betray true knowledge. It becomes unreachable.

Truth is revealed only to those who humble themselves before the vast miracle of existence. Truth yields itself to this type of consciousness.

To know, we must yield ourselves to experience.

And in experience, we become truly wise.

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PS — This is part of the mystery of Art—we must learn, as artists, to humble ourselves before the “vast miracle of existence” and there, we find Truth revealed, and that informs the “messages” that we encode on canvas, in writing, or in song that we then transmit to others.

One of the reasons I built FASO is because I believe art is important, artists are important, and the work you’re called to create deserves to be taken seriously. We are all sharing “miracles of existence” through our art.

Yes, at FASO, we build professional artist websites. Yes, we talk about marketing. Yes, we give artists tools to present their work, tell their stories, reach collectors, and sell more art.

But that is the how.

The why is that we love art, and we want to push back against a world that too often treats art like content and artists like algorithms. The modern world denigrates Beauty in preference of profit and efficiency. At FASO, we hold Beauty sacred.

So we don’t just host artist websites. We promote artists. We feature their work. We try, in our own small way, to help more art find the people who need it. And that informs everything we do and build.

If that resonates with you, we’d be honored to have you join us.

Get Started with FASO for Free

PPS — If you’re not ready to look at FASO, you can support our mission by simply clicking the heart icon at the top or bottom of this article. That helps us reach more artists and art lovers and helps us spread Beauty to a world that is desperate for it.
—Clint

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Todd Williams, a Nebraska-born impressionistic oil painter who discovered his calling as a child, went on to study at the Kansas City Art Institute, worked a decade as an illustrator for Hallmark, and has since spent about 25 years as a full-time fine artist represented by major galleries. His work is driven by a desire to evoke emotion at both a distance and up close, with paint quality, broken color, and expressive brushwork often carrying as much weight as the subject itself. Technically, he emphasizes the “science” of painting—values, composition, clean value planes, and his value–color–mixture approach—as the left-brain foundation that lets him later enter a childlike, intuitive “spirit of painting” mode. A major milestone was his Legacy Nebraska Collection, a five-year project tied to Nebraska’s sesquicentennial that deepened his connection to place, history, and Native American subjects, and led naturally into his current series of bold, expressive Native American portraits and Western work. His advice to artists centers on perseverance, choosing strong and simple subjects to set yourself up for success, learning from both failures and wins, and accepting the ongoing tension between painting what sells and painting what most moves you. Over time, his definition of success has shifted from financial hunger and high output toward health, spiritual grounding, contentment, and relationships—treating the studio as a sacred space and the artistic journey itself as the true destination. Finally, Todd tells us about his upcoming activities, including teaching workshops with the Indiana Heritage Arts group in Nashville, Indiana and at the Merrick County Museum in his hometown of Central City, Nebraska, participating in ongoing and future Western-themed exhibitions (such as at the Museum of Western Art in Kerrville and Settlers West Gallery in Tucson), and contributing to the traveling “Painting the Arkansas Parks” exhibition organized through the Heart of America Artists for 2026–2027.

Todd’s FASO site:
toddwilliamsfineart.com/

Todd’s Social Media:
instagram.com/toddwilliamsfineart/

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Transcript:

Todd Williams: 0:00

Set yourself up for success, you know, and because a lot of times what we do is we choose maybe not the right reference to use, or we choose not the right subject, and you know, you need to keep things a little bit more simple in the beginning, so you can kind of build confidence in that, and so again, getting back to the four value planes, if you’re doing landscape painting, those are really important, just to keep those very simple, you know, within the values and those value planes, and then everything else will kind of fall into place.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:37

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that Fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights for today’s episode. We sat down with Todd Williams, a Nebraska-born impressionistic oil painter, who discovered his calling as a child, went on to study at the Kansas City Art Institute, worked a decade as an illustrator for Hallmark, and has since spent about 25 years as a full-time fine artist represented by major galleries. His work is driven by a desire to evoke emotion at both a distance and up close, with paint quality, broken color, and expressive brushwork often carrying as much weight as the subject itself. Technically, he emphasizes the science of painting values, composition, clean value planes, and his value color mixture approach as the left brain foundation that lets him later enter a childlike, intuitive spirit of painting mode, a major milestone was his legacy Nebraska collection, a five-year project tied to Nebraska’s sesquicentennial that deepened his connection to place, history, and Native American subjects, and led naturally into his current series of bold, expressive Native American portraits and Western work. His advice to artists centers on perseverance, choosing strong and simple subjects to set yourself up for success, learning from both failures and wins, and accepting the ongoing tension between painting what sells and painting what most moves you over time. His definition of success has shifted from financial hunger and high output toward health, spiritual grounding, contentment, and relationships, treating the studio as a sacred space and the artistic journey itself as the true destination. Finally, Todd tells us about his upcoming activities, including teaching workshops with the Indiana Heritage Arts Group in Nashville, Indiana, and at the Merritt County Museum in his hometown of Central City, Nebraska, participating in ongoing and future Western-themed exhibitions, such as the Museum of Western Art in Kerrville and Settlers West Gallery in Tucson, and contributing to the Traveling Painting the Arkansas Parks exhibition, organized through the Heart of America artists for 2026 through 2027 Welcome, Todd, to The FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Todd Williams: 2:53

Good, thank you, Laura.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:55

I’m excited to have you, because I saw your work, and I really thought I need to pick his brain about how he thinks through these gorgeous broken colors, and just the way that you navigate the canvas with your brush strokes is just.. it is so beautiful to look at, and I can’t get tired of just looking around your canvases, just seeing where all the colors end up, and how it creates such beautiful portraits and landscapes. So, I’m really happy to have you, and pick your brain about

Todd Williams: 3:28

it. Thank you. That’s so kind. Yeah, for me, I’ve always had, like, this dream of really wanting my work to evoke an emotion, really, to the viewer, and to be exciting on multiple levels, and so the actual paint itself to me was really exciting, and sometimes that in my mind, as I’m creating, becomes even more important than the subject is just the paint itself, and so you know, from a distance, you want your word to really read well, right? You want people to go, “Wow, I want to get up closer to that and see it, but then when they get up close and maybe even go in really close to see the details, I want them to be excited about the paint quality, and so for me that’s just.. I don’t know, something. As, as I began my journey as an artist, I wanted to try and evoke that type of an emotion to the viewer.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:39

Yeah, yeah, and I think it definitely shows through. There’s a very, like, it feels like you really care about what you’re painting, but also you don’t want to lose the expressiveness of the paint, and I can definitely see it. I really love how you treat your subject matter. It feels, yeah, it feels very delicate, but also expressive. It’s very. State,

Todd Williams: 5:01

thank you. Yeah, there is sensitivity to it, and of course, all the artists will tell you it’s really, you know, it’s about the values, and you have to get those right first, and then after you really accomplish that, what I would call the science of that, because there really is a science of painting, then you can get into more of your right brain and the creative side, and kind of let those, like, childlike enthusiasm to me is, is kind of the best way to describe it, is like you just kind of let, let the spirit kind of flow out of that, and let the work have a voice of its own, you know.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:45

Yeah, I agree, and I think that’s one of the hardest parts of pursuing, you know, an artistic career as well, is how to allow yourself to do that. Right, I feel like a lot of people hold themselves back from that state, because maybe they think, oh, it’s so silly, it’s childish, or, or maybe they’re afraid of being vulnerable, but yeah, yeah, actually, before we dive into that aspect, because I think we can totally dive into that more, I actually want to ask you, when you began to follow the path of the artist,

Todd Williams: 6:25

so you know, I got my BFA at the Artist In Kansas City, and then I ended up getting an internship with Hallmark Cards my senior year, and so that last semester it was really the first time, really, you know, at an early age I actually had some money, I was like, and so for an artist, you know, when you, when you have the dream, become an artist, and for me that dream started really early, and we can kind of get into that later, but I knew that it’s not about getting rich, you know, it’s not, it’s not the occupation that necessarily even your parents want you to become, because I remember some stories I can tell you here a bit later about my dad and sitting down with my art professor from high school, and you know, it’s like, what, you know, he wants to be an artist, and so anyway, it all worked out well, and I am very thankful for that, but it’s tough, so when I, after I, upon graduating, and had some experience at Hallmark. I kind of sent my book out and ended up getting hired from Dayspring Cards, and then I worked for them for 10 years, and they, while I was working for them, they actually became a subsidiary of Hallmark, so I ended up working for Hallmark again, and under that umbrella. So it was really fun. It was great for me to grow. It was a great time to really find my own voice, and kind of, you know, just who, what I wanted to say and speak through my paintings, because I really didn’t know. And as an artist for Hallmark and Dayspring, I kind of had to be a jack of all trades, right? I had a, you know, like, say there was a sentiment editorial written for Mother’s Day, and they would go, ‘Hey, we want you to do a painting of a woman in the garden, you know, you know, tending to her flowers, and we want you to paint it in like a Monet impressionistic style, so that would be the, you know, the direction they gave me, so that was great. I enjoyed that, but then again, it just wasn’t me exactly. And so, after 10 years with them, working full time, which was a huge blessing, I was able to step away from that and pursue fine art, and so I’ve been painting full time now for almost 25 years. At one point in my career, I had seven galleries coast to coast, all the way from Seattle, Washington to Martha’s Vineyard, so it was, it was, you know, a lot of work, but I was just really prolific. I worked really hard providing all those galleries with work, and you know, if the piece doesn’t sell there, you send it somewhere else, and voila, it somehow sells. So, sometimes there’s no rhyme or reason to that, but so yeah, after almost 25 years it’s been great. I mean, I’ve had a lot of financial success, you know, some years are always better than others, but you know. It’s I didn’t, you know, getting back to the main point was I didn’t become an artist because of the money, I became an artist because I really felt like God had given me a gift and I needed to use that to my fullest potential, so

Laura Arango Baier: 10:18

yeah, yeah, and you certainly have, and consider you had seven galleries, that’s a lot, that’s a lot of work. Oh my gosh, insane. But yeah, and actually I do want to go back into the voice aspect, and that aspect that we were just talking about, you know, that childlike sort of flow approach to painting, because I find that it’s very natural for an artistic voice to progress as the years go on. So, in your career, how has your artistic voice revealed itself as you’ve painted more and more, and how have you maybe found yourself allowing yourself to also step into that vulnerable childlike, I guess, identity while you paint?

Todd Williams: 11:15

Yeah, so kind of getting back to, you know, really like the science of painting, and some of those foundational truths, as I learned more in studying art, you know, with with other great professional artists through the years, because really, you know, when I was at the Art Institute, you know, they teach you composition, they teach you color theory, but they don’t really teach you necessarily some of the aspects that goes into, like, say, mixing paint, like, how do I actually mix that correct value and that correct color, and so as I began to learn more throughout my career and began to teach myself, I kind of broke it down into, you know, these different truths or disciplines. I had the privilege of studying with some great artists, like Obama, and CW Monday, Dan Gearhart. So, you know, you kind of get all this information, and then you kind of becomes a part of you, and then you kind of add your own little spin to it, but you know really that those aspects, or that language to creativity, and specifically painting is really the same sometimes Sometimes the words that we use are a little bit different, but there’s really not anything new under the sun, right? But it’s just really taking that information and letting it really become a revelation within yourself. And I remember being in my studio, painting, and then all of a sudden the light bulb comes on after you know miles and miles of canvas, oh, that’s what Avannis meant, or that’s what you know CW meant when he said that, and so then those things are instilled within you, they become a part of you, and then once you have that, it’s almost like you know Pablo Picasso, what he had spoken, you have to learn the rules before you can break them, and so once you have that left brain knowledge, then it helps, then what you said, that childlike, the right brain, then, or really the spirit of painting, just let, let that flow, and so even with mixing, like when I teach part of the things I teach is called the VCM, it’s the value color mixture, and so within a certain value plane, say like a sky or something, we’ll actually look for that correct value color mixture, and then we’ll bend it, you know, warmer on one side and cooler on the other, but it’s really the same value, and so within that you still have that clean value playing, you know, like Edgar Payne talks about the four value planes, so for me that’s where when I solve all the issues ahead of time it then allows me to then flow out and be more creative, more spontaneous, get into the paint more, get into the paint manipulation, because I’ve solved all the other issues and there’s so much to think about, right? When you’re actually in it, and it’s tough. It’s not easy. I remember Avantis Berberian saying one time to us, as I was in one of his workshops, he said, if you wanted to do something easy, you should have become a brain surgeon, I. Yeah, because the amount of focus that we need as artists, and sometimes it’s very isolated to a specific amount of time, it’s almost like brain surgery, you know, maybe it’s only for a few hours, but you have to be just so in tune to that process, you know, in that zone, you know, into that right brain, and so to me, if I can solve all the other issues ahead of time, it helps me not get out of that zone. If that makes sense,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:35

yeah, yeah, it’s a delicate balance, yeah, because sometimes you can. I don’t know if this has happened to you. It probably has, because it’s, you know, it’s very common, but like, you might start painting, and then you start overthinking, and you start overthinking. Oh, but this, this might not be right, but what about over here? But then there are other moments where it’s almost like it’s too quiet in your brain, and it’s just also not really going anywhere, so it’s like a like that sweet spot of like, okay, this is the knowledge base that I have, like you said, you have to have that knowledge base, and then okay, How do I temper my thoughts so that they’re not overwhelming and controlling the flow, but yeah, I think also it’s just sometimes it just some paintings just don’t work. I don’t know if that also happens to you, or it’s like it’s.. I’ve tried, it’s just not working. Do you ever feel that way?

Todd Williams: 16:32

Yeah, absolutely. And those are the times too, I can feel when I just get mentally and sometimes physically tired, and I now you know, at this stage of my career, I have gained the wisdom to go, you know, what it’s time to step away, you know, maybe for that whole day and come back fresh the next day, because part of the thing, too, as the author of your painting, you know, you’re you’re creating something, and you’re so attached to it, and I have to somehow be detached from it to see it again with fresh eyes, because you’ll fall in love with, like, one area of the painting, but if that area is not correct, if those values and shapes are not correct, then the rest of the painting is now fractured, right? So it really becomes problematic if you continue in that, say that day, or whatever, that you’re working, and so it’s, it’s challenging, you know. Every time that I go to paint again, I think all of us artists struggle with, oh my gosh, you know, is this going to turn out, and there is that a little bit of seed of doubt, but you have to just push through, right? And then once you push through, the confidence comes, and then you know you kind of get into that zone, right, into the spirit of painting. This is what I like to call it. So there is something kind of magical about it, and I think a lot of the success successful artists will tell you that sometimes the paintings will just paint themselves, like, like I’ll go back and I’ll look at some of my favorite paintings, and the ones that I like the most, that are most dear to my heart, you know, other artists will also connect with that piece, but then I noticed that the public, or those art collectors, those are the pieces that they just kind of pass by, and you know, and I’m like, oh my gosh, they, you know, and those, those pieces, though, I think become this like little gems, you know, and I look at them, and then I’ll have other artists, like recently I had a show at the Western Art Museum in Kerrville, Texas, and there was two pieces I had in the show, and thankfully they both sold, but one of them sold the opening night, and then the other one sold, you know, a week later, and there was one piece all the artists loved. They didn’t even mention the other one, right? And then all the public that came and spoke to me, they all loved the other painting, and I can share those images with you later. What’s called Ken Spirits, and the other one was called Dream Raven. They were both part of my kind of Native American series that I’m doing right now, but it was just a really interesting, you know, thing to reflect on because. Of you know, how the two minds think differently, you know, as us artists, we see things differently than someone who’s not an artist, right? So, anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 20:16

yeah, that, you know, what, that is so true. I’ve had that happen to me too, where, like, I might make a painting, and, like, wow, this is actually kind of nice, and maybe my artist friends also agree, but then it doesn’t get any attention from non-artists, and I find that that’s also very true with musicians, where a musician’s favorite music is not necessarily a song that the public likes, or they might be like that’s okay, but it just, it’s, but then the musician obviously hears it and thinks, oh my gosh, the chord progressions here, and how they did this movement, and how they did that, you know, it’s yeah, we have a, I guess, as artists, we have like that attunement to the particulars of how something is composed, and like, ah, it’s yeah, it’s hard for an untrained eye, I guess, to catch that, yeah,

Todd Williams: 21:11

yeah, and some of those paintings too, I look back on, and I’m like, I don’t, I don’t even know how I painted it, like, how, how did I do that, and because there is a process that I go through and how I teach also is where you build up like that shape, right, you find and define that edge per se and then you destroy it and then you build it back up, and so it’s kind of a juxtaposition, where, and like James Turner, you know, and let’s see, I’m trying to think, anyway, we’ll come back to that, but it’s kind of like, you know, that openness, right, the kind of the abstractness that you find in some certain areas of a painting, and sometimes as artists we’re like, oh my gosh, how did he do that, and a lot of times that is just a process of like trying things, and then you don’t like it, and you scrape it out, and then you put something else down, and then you smear it around, or whatever, and then the next thing you know, you’re like, “Whoa, I like that, and so you leave it, and how, how, like years later, when you go back and look at that piece, I just don’t, you know, how did I come up with that? I don’t know, but I really love it, so it is part of that, you know, process. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 22:46

yeah, yeah, it’s a funny, happy accidents, and they’re really hard to replicate, for sure. But I wanted to ask you, do you mind elaborating a bit on the spirit of painting?

Todd Williams: 23:00

Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, my faith is important to me, and so when I step into the studio and begin that process, to me that’s a form of worship, you know, and so it’s, you know, there’s something about the very active painting, not always the end product, but just the journey to it, the actual process of creating that I believe is his healing, it has power, and it has the ability, you know, for, for us, just as human beings, you know, to help us be better balanced, really, you know, as human beings, and so sometimes my wife will tell me, man, you’re just so cranky, you need to get back in the studio, you know, and because you know you, you have to wear so many hats as an artist, and you’re doing all this, you’re, you know, doing all that, and you know, and so it’s just, and you forget, oh yeah, I should be in the studio painting, also, and sometimes that gets neglected, and so you know, my wife’s really good at, you know, what you need to get back in there, just, you know, paint, you know, and get alone to yourself, and then when I get into those moments, too, you know, where it’s just yourself, because you know painting is really an isolated, you know, situation, and that’s really good, and you know, sometimes too, you know, just going outdoors and painting in plein air, there’s something about that that I just feel more in tune to my own spirit, but then also the spirit of God, and just. Helps me be more grounded and kind of come back to that balance that I need desperately, and you know, in the world in which we are right now, there’s just so much negativity all the time that it becomes, you know, you have to just shut that off, right, and you have to kind of escape into your own world, and so that happens when, when you get into that painting, and you enter into that zone, and that right brain, to me, that’s when it really is about the spirit. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:41

yeah, yeah, I totally relate to that, because there’s a, you know, there’s so many aspects of painting that is very, it’s almost ritualistic, right, where you take your brushes, you take your paints, and it’s usually the same sort of steps, and it, I find that I also move towards my work a lot more differently when I treat it as more of a sacred space, and just, oh yeah, this is my easel, because it just makes it more special. It makes it gives it more of like a feeling of a spiritual feeling. So I totally relate with that, and it is, there’s.. it feels easier to get into that zone when you do treat the space in that sense as well, at least from my experience. So, I totally, totally agree with, with that. And it’s such a safe.. it’s a safe place, it’s sanctuary as well for artists, since we’re such sensitive people. It’s like, okay, no, I need to hide away for a bit, and you know, untangle all the knots in my head for minutes in my safe space, and then I’ll go back to society, you know.

Todd Williams: 26:51

Yeah, and it takes a while to kind of get into that, right? When you first enter into your studio and you start painting, and so you want to preserve that, you want to make sure nothing interferes with that, and so that’s why again it’s important to kind of try and solve all those issues, you know, more of the left brain thinking, get that out of the way, and so when you get in there, all you can just stay in that right brain the whole time, you know, and and then when you step out, you know, maybe that’s a good time to take a break, to you know, step away, go outside, go for a walk, you know, whatever it may be. I know a lot of times after I finish my paintings, it’s so important to see, like we were talking about, because of the author, you’re so connected to it to see it in a different aspect, right? You know, so you know, as artists, we’ll turn them upside down, we’ll get it through a mirror, we’ll get other people’s opinions, you know, people that we trust. I pop them in a frame, I’ll put them up on the wall, and so when I come in and have breakfast in the morning, and I’ve started on a new piece. I can kind of continue to look at the piece, I can squint at it, I can really just try and analyze it, you know, again with fresh eyes. Now I’ve stepped away from that specific painting, and I’ve moved on, but now I can see it later, you know, maybe it’s a week or two later before I have to send it out, so you know it’s always good. It’s hard for, for all of us artists, I think, you know, because we tend to kind of like procrastinate a little bit, that the deadline comes. Oh no, I got the show coming up, and you know, my painting is still wet,

Laura Arango Baier: 28:44

yeah. Yes, it’s so interesting. I feel like a lot of artists, we procrastinate, but it’s because we know how important it is, so we feel the pressure of, oh man, it’s got to be good, it’s got to be good. But then it turns out all right, you know? I don’t know, you just end up really, really tired, and then you have to recover for a few days, and that sucks, but yeah, yeah. And actually, I wanted to ask you, is there a question that you’re currently chasing in your work? Is there something that you’ve been recently searching for on your canvases?

Todd Williams: 29:20

Well, you know, I think a lot of artists, if they’re honest, they would probably tell you, you know, that there’s, there’s, there’s this, what would be the term, the correct, there’s this battle sometimes to me of like painting something that that I really am excited about, and then also painting something that will sell, and I noticed, and it wasn’t. Always this way, but here recently, like, so, so back in the day, let’s just say, hypothetically, okay, you know, back in the 90s, right, when I first really started painting, you know, as an illustrator, and then went professional in the early 2000s and I remember just talking to other artists and stuff like that. If you did a great painting, I mean, it was just like boom, boom, boom. I mean, you just selling paintings all over the place, and now it’s not so much about a great painting, it’s actually doing something that connects with the viewer, and so now the subject becomes just as important as the painting itself. Obviously, you know, as artists, you know one of my number one things is design, and I, if I, if I’m not happy with my composition or design, there’s no reason in painting it right, and whereas before I just like plop down and paint whatever’s in front of me, and really don’t give any concern to that, but now I really take my time to really make sure that that design is as powerful as possible, you know, based on the subject, you’re a little bit limited, but anyway, that’s to me always a challenge, you know, even at this stage of my career, and so I’ll have ideas, and then I’ll kind of live with them for a while, and then I’ll kind of tweak them a little bit, and you know, bend them here or there, and so there is that little bit of balance between my artistic, creative endeavors, and then also I need to make a living, and you know, paint something that will connect with people, so some artists will say, well, that’s just smart business, and then other artists will say, well, you’re selling out, so you know it’s there, is that challenge, and so for me, I still deal with that, I guess. When you ask that question, that’s kind of what kind of popped into my mind, so

Laura Arango Baier: 32:21

if you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May with our special guest, Deborah Keirce. You can find the sign-up link in the show notes at BoldBrush. We inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. Boldbrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity, and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles, and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that Fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free@boldbrushshow.com that’s B O L D B R U S H show.com The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e-commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So, if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, that’s FASO.com forward slash podcast. It’s, you know, it’s fair, because I think that’s the, you know, the two wolves that we all have inside of us as artists, is the wolf that’s like, I just want to paint what I love, and that’s it, and even if it’s crazy, no one gets it, and then the other wolf that’s like, yeah, but like, we gotta sell stuff, because we need money, so we can’t really paint that really wacky thing that you’ve got on. Mind, unless you have some money already saved up, so you can do that, so it’s, yeah, it’s a bit of a balance, and I think that’s something we all have to deal with as artists, unless we’re unbelievably wealthy and not concerned with selling paintings at all, but we’re not, for the most part,

Todd Williams: 35:19

yeah, you know, you know, just to step back a little bit, you know, it really is a blessing, you know, to be able to say, hey, I can provide for myself and my family by creating artwork, and that alone is a blessing, right? I mean, so I’m thankful, I’m grateful for that. I really truly am. And so we, as artists, we just have to continue to have that thankful heart, you know? No matter what stage we’re at, and the key is always is perseverance, really. It’s not giving up, right, and so for the artists that are watching, you know, today this is that’s really the key. It’s it’s not anything other than just the miles and miles of canvas, the the success and the failures, and all those combine into knowledge, and so one of the things I teach when you approach a new painting is knowledge versus observation. You bring all that knowledge that you have, you know, all those failures, all those successes into your next piece, so that gives you that leg up on the next composition, on the next piece, and so you have to use that to your, your, you know, to your best ability to again solve all the issues, make it easy on yourself. A lot of times, too, when, when I teach workshops, I just got done teaching a workshop in Fredericksburg, and with the DK Fredericksburg art group there, and just a wonderful group of artists, and it’s, but the struggle is always a lot of times the same, as you know, set yourself up for success, you know, and because a lot of times what we do is we choose maybe not the right reference to use, or we choose not the right subject, and you know you need to keep things a little bit more simple in the beginning, so you can kind of build confidence in that, and so again, getting back to the four value planes, if you’re doing landscape painting, those are really important, just to keep those very simple, you know, within the values and those value plans, and then everything else will kind of fall into place, but anyway, this kind of ramble there for a second.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:56

Oh no, but it’s, it’s actually very relevant to my next question, which is perfect, which is actually, when was the turning point for you, where you realized you could make a living as an artist?

Todd Williams: 38:10

Okay, so I want to just share a little story with you, real quick. I ended up doing this entire series in my home state, Nebraska, called the Legacy Nebraska Collection, and this is this is one of the collector set books that I did, and you know we put this together, and so you know it has a really nice pearl encasement, and we had printed 1000 of those and they ended up all selling out, and so I ended up doing a second edition a few years ago, and then we kind of did a different cover on the book for that, but I mean that was really one of the highlights in my career, but what was kind of funny was my wife wrote the editorial bio for that in the introduction of the book, and we went back to my third grade teacher and interviewed her, because it was really back then my mom had got me this set of colored pencils, and I was kind of just taking them, and I had a poster of a tiger on my wall, and I was like, “wow, and so I sat down, and I had this large piece of cardboard, and I did this drawing of a tiger, and colored it in, you know, with all its stripes and stuff, and as I was doing it, and I was laying on the floor, my mom came by, and she’s like, “Wow, you should take that in the show and tell, that’s really good. And I’m like, “What, really? And so the next day was Friday, and I don’t know if you remember, we used to have show and tell on Fridays, and so I brought that in and showed it to my class and showed it to my teacher. It and they just went on and on about it and raved about it and I remember walking home that day and I was carrying this large piece of cardboard and it was like as big as me really and with the Nebraska wind and on the plains I mean I was like whoa then started like coming away from me and but I just remember walking home that day, and I was like, man, I, I really want to be an artist when I grow up, you know, and I almost like, in my heart, I was just like praying to God, and I was like, God, I would, I just would love to be an artist when I grow up, and so when we were doing this bio for the book, we reached out to my third grade teacher, mrs. Hauserman, and she said, “Todd, I remember that day, and you know, of course, this is whatever decades later, right? And she’s like, “I remember, and I looked, there was a.. I think it was a second or third floor was where, where we met, and, and I only lived a few blocks from there, and so I would walk, you know, back and forth to school, and she looked out the window, and she saw me walking home, and she said that she also prayed for me that day, and I was just like, what, and I just like, there was something that you know surpassed, you know, what we can see, right? And that just really touched me. And so, to me, that was that was really the point, and it’s really weird to say, you know, went all the way back to the third grade, but then that was instilled in me. Then later, when I was in high school, my art teacher there, David Jorgensen, he sat down with my parents, and he was like, you know, I was a senior in high school, parent-teacher’s conference, and he was like, I really think Todd should go on and study art, he really has a gift, and my mom was like, oh my gosh, this is so exciting, and my dad’s like, what really, and so he goes, yeah, he repeats himself again. My dad’s like,”What really? And so, anyway, I went on to study at the Central Community College in Columbus, Nebraska. They kind of baby stepped it a little bit, you know, right. And then I transferred to the Art Institute in Kansas City, and I, as I mentioned earlier, I then got my BFA and did an internship with Hallmark Cards, and then right out of graduating I ended up getting a full-time position with Day Spring Cards, and then we moved to Siloam Springs, Arkansas, me and my family, my daughter was a year and a half at the time, and so it was just such a, you know, great transition, you know, for me as an artist, and then after working for them for 10 years, I stepped away to pursue really my own voice, right, to really be professional fine artists, and but before I stepped away completely, and with the mentorship and influence from CW Mandi, he was helping me and looking at my work, and he said,”Todd, I really feel like you’re ready, and so it’s actually 1999 when I approached the Legacy Gallery in Scottsdale, I had won a scholarship to study at the Scottsdale Artist School, and while I was there, I mean, there’s just like a mecca of galleries, I thought, you know, here’s my chance to maybe get into a gallery, and not only did I get into Legacy Gallery, but I ended up getting into the Meyer Gallery in Santa Fe through my connections there, because they, at that time, they had a gallery in Scottsdale, so that really was really.. I remember we went back to the hotel, and my wife and I, and our daughter, and I gave them the good news that I actually got to, you know, top galleries in the United States, you know, here in one fell swoop, and we’re jumping up on the bed, you know, hey, holding hands, jumping up on the bed, and celebrating, and it was just, you know, a beautiful time, and so that to me was really, again, just a great stepping stone, because once, once I got into those two galleries, I continued to work full time. I went to my wife, I went to my family, and I said, you know, I really need to dedicate some time separate from 41 Working 40 hours a week, and so they allowed me every Saturday to get into the studio to produce paintings, you know, for those galleries, right. So once that started to really flow, I started to be able to provide for the galleries. I felt more confident than in stepping away, which was basically three years later. I mean, I love my job at Dayspring. It was so, so great, and I love all the people there, and so it was hard for me to step away, but once I did, that very first year I doubled my income. So, I mean, it’s just, you know, anyway, I feel like that that was a turning point, and then the second turning point was really in 2011 you know, we kind of went through the recession of 2007 2008 you know, there’s a little bit of hangover, and so a lot, some of my galleries were kind of slow, and you know, we weren’t selling a whole lot, and so I was going home to Nebraska for my mom’s birthday, which was in May, and this was 2011 and I had already done a series of paintings and had some solo exhibitions with my series from Vienna and Prague. This painting right here is the St. Charles Bridge from Prague, and then I ended up doing another because I was so successful, that was at the Meyer Gallery in Santa Fe. I did another series from Italy, and then I was like, okay, I love doing these series of paintings. How about I actually end up doing a series from my home state of Nebraska? And so that’s when this idea came to me in 2011 to kind of go into the different counties of Nebraska, and I started in my hometown of Central City, Nebraska, which was Mary County, and then I started with some of the surrounding counties in doing those, and I sat down with Michael Smith, he was the executive director of the State Historical Society of Nebraska, and this was 2012 and I was sharing him with my idea, my vision of doing this series of paintings, so he, he goes, Well, when do you expect to have all these paintings done? And I said, well, I’m going to give myself five years, so 2017 Well, that’s when he was like, oh my gosh, well, you know what 2017 is? And I said, no. He said, well, that’s Nebraska Sesquicentennial, and so I was like, okay, Susque, what, what’s that term, and ended up just everything kind of fell into place, he put me in charge, or in contact with the Nebraska 150 Commission, because that was Nebraska’s 100/50 statehood anniversary, and then later I was able to meet with the governor and the First Lady, and they were just like, we love what you’re doing, we want this to be a part of our celebration for Nebraska Sesquicentennial, and just everything kind of started to fall into place, and so they really selected me then to be the exclusive artist to represent the state of Nebraska, and that took five years of my life, and so in 2012 I went to all those galleries. At that time, I did have seven galleries that represented me nationally, and I had to say to them, I said, I have this unbelievable chance, this, you know, opportunity, you know, for myself as an artist, and just because of my love for my home state of Nebraska to do this, and they were all very much in favor of that, and he encouraged me and said yes, you know, we support you in this, go for it. And so, for me, as we traveled throughout the state, excuse me, Nebraska PBS station ended up doing a 60 minute documentary, also, and so they would travel around with us, and as we would go into the different counties, you know, meet with each county historical society, we’d also meet with some of the local historians, and so what I was trying to do was gather information to find out really. What would be the one thing if you had to just pick one thing to identify with that county within the state, and so that was hard at times, and, and very interesting, the whole business side of that, the sponsors, the logistics of that exhibition, because it ended up being 123 works of art. Well, what do I do with all those paintings? And then it was going to be a statewide traveling exhibition in 2017 you know, during the Susque Centennial celebration. So there was a lot of logistics things there. There’s things on the business side that you know we, I can probably talk about for hours about how that came about. But anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:53

that sounds very stressful,

Todd Williams: 50:56

though. That’s a lot.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:57

Oh my gosh, yeah. Because it’s like it’s a beautiful idea, and it’s amazing also because it’s something I’ve been thinking about in the last few weeks, which is how there’s this thing that happens through an artist, an artist’s career, where, like, at the very beginning, you know, we reach out and find opportunities, but then there comes a point where we start making our own opportunities that makes sense, kind of like how you did, you’re like, oh, well, I should just paint my home state, because I mean, my paintings over there did great, so I want to, you know, do something for my home state, and then, bam, you get all of these, it’s like, it’s like opening Pandora’s box, except, of course, it has much better things in there, but it’s yeah, you just, you had your own, you know, you made your own opportunity by accident, and it really just comes from like that hit with inspiration, and then you just go for it, you just ask the right people about it, you start investigating, and suddenly you get a lot of people on board, and I think that’s a huge testament to the importance of following that instinct and following that inspiration, and just make your own opportunities, because, like, they’re not going to fall on your lap willy nilly, you know. We all hope, we all wish, but that doesn’t always happen like that.

Todd Williams: 52:13

Yes, that’s that’s really a good point. I’m glad you brought that up, because to me it was kind of a god thing, because I didn’t really plan for all that, right? I just kind of wanted, just from my own heart and passion. I just had always thought, wow, you know, I’ve done these series in Europe, but I would love to do a series in my home state, and then when that’s once that started, it kind of ended up into something even greater than I had originally purchased, and now, or it really thought of, but for me that really has then moved into, in a very natural way, my next series, because when I was in my home state of Nebraska, and learning some of the history, and going into the counties, I learned a lot more about the Native Americans. Right, I learned a lot more about their story, and how important it was to not only the state of Nebraska, but a lot of states, you know, within the United States of America. And so I just love that. I love some of the history, I loved learning more about it, and so that kind of wanted me to dive into it even more. And part of the Legacy of Nebraska series, I did do several Native American pieces to represent some of those counties, and so it’s really became a natural evolution to now do this next series, as which I’ve been currently working on since then, and so I wanted to kind of do just, you know, faces, you know, and I, I’ve always loved portraits, I love faces, but I never really tackled that very much, I always did. You know, in the beginning, you know, they, a lot of this, you know, if you go any type of any academic, you know, school, or you know, go over into Europe, you know, and and join in on some of those academic art schools or workshops, or whatever. They always tell you to start with the still life first, right? You’re dealing with one light, one light source, you know? You got your highlights, mid tones, you got your shadows, so it’s very simple, right? You know, keep everything as simple as possible. Then, as you can successfully accomplish that subject, you move to the landscape. Once you kind of then get that honed in, then you kind of move to the figure or portraits, right? And so, for me, I’ve always wanted. It to do more figurative work. I’ve always wanted to do more portrait work, and so that’s kind of what that led into with my current series within more of the Western genre, and specifically some of the Native American subject matter.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:19

Awesome. Yeah, and that’s.. I feel like painting is.. I like to say it’s a gift that keeps on giving, where there are endless things to learn, just endless.. you think you.. if you think you’ve learned it all, you.. you’re wrong, because the more you.. you’ve.. you paint, the more you realize there’s so much more to know, and it’s a lifetime or more of learning, and it’s.. it can be very daunting, but I think that’s great. I love those portraits, the ones with the red background, or the.. it’s.. they’re so.. yeah.. or the blue background. It’s very beautiful, because there’s a starkness to them and an expressiveness at the same time, or they’re very. like their presence, you know,

Todd Williams: 56:03

yes, and it, you know, to me too, as an artist, you want to do something that stands out a little bit, you, you want to be unique, but it’s hard to be unique when everything’s already been done, right? So you know, but you kind of keep trying, you know? You just, you have to just keep trying, and I know the most successful artists, like a lot of galleries that you know, directors and people I used to work with, gallery owners and things like that, they would say, you know, Todd, you just, you should just do one thing and just stick to that one thing and just do that one thing well, that way you can be known for that one thing, and I said, well, and it’s probably because of my illustration background, you know, too, it’s just painting multiple different things, and having to be like I said, a jack of all trades. I had a, I had a paint in acrylic, watercolor, Karen Doss crayons, you know, pastels. I mean, you know, we did silk painting, we did etchings, I mean, we did everything, you know, just whatever you can think about for two dimensional artwork, you know. I’ve done it, and you know, maybe I was kind of good at that, but I wasn’t great. And so, yeah, there is, there is that, there is that truth. If you just paint the same thing over and over and over and over again, you’re going to get really have a lot of knowledge for that subject, but it’s really, then I, that’s why I like to do things in a series, you know, like I’ll do a series, and then once I feel like that series has kind of reached its, you know, moment in time, then I’ll kind of move on to something else, and maybe it’s a slight, slight tweak here and there, but, but I do notice that I do notice that within the commercial realm that the most successful artists will pretty much paint the same painting over and over again, but they just change the composition, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the same subject matter, I guess, is what I’m trying to say, and not that there’s anything wrong with that, you know, because there is the business side of things, but for me, I do want to challenge myself, especially at those times where I’m feeling kind of blase about things, like, okay, well, what am I going to do next, I really want to challenge myself to try, and you know, not necessarily reinvent myself, but just create something that maybe that I don’t see out there right now. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 58:54

yeah, yeah, and I like, we mentioned earlier, it’s those two wolves, there’s the one that’s like, I want to try all of these new paintings and new things, and then the the other wolf, it’s like, well, but galleries want you to create a product that they can rely on, because they’re a business, and you’re like, yeah, I know, I totally understand that, I think that’s what we all kind of have to face at some point, because we’re not, we’re not stagnant creatures, right? We’re not gonna, I mean, sure, maybe someone out there is blessed enough to really want to paint the exact same thing forever, but I, I highly doubt that, because I feel like, as humans, you know, you evolve, we change, we age, we experience new things. It’s impossible to always paint the same thing forever, just because of that, you know. We’re always going to evolve, we’re always going to change, and therefore our work is naturally going to do the same as well. So, I think it’s, it’s a little bit funny, because the. Salaries, and you know, buyers, they want something that’s exact, something that’s always going to be the same, something that’s always reliable, and, like, yes, we can rely that this artist always paints these trees really well with the sunset, but then, of course, that artist might be like a little bit tired of the trees with the sunset, because I feel like I’ve already, you know, done it a lot of times, so yeah, I think that’s one of those hard parts of like trying to step outside of that gallery’s comfort zone and have that conversation with them about, well, I want to explore this direction a bit, and coming to, you know, some sort of compromise about it as well,

Todd Williams: 1:00:43

and I think if, if you know, if I’m, if I’m honest, and if you talk to other professional artists and they’re honest, they’ll tell you that we go through seasons right within our career, and sometimes it is important to build those relationships and kind of paint what they want, right, and so you obviously need to make money, you need to be successful, you need to provide for yourself, and you know, provide for your family, and and so there there are those decisions that you know during that season of life that it’s it’s important that you probably, you know, choose those wisely, but then later, you know, you’ll go through other seasons and stuff like that, where you know there’s more important things than money, you know, and what are we going to do, like, like, I, I’m by far not rich or anything, but I make a good living, you know. I’m able to provide for my family, you know. I have a good home. How much money do I really need to be happy? And what, what is more important, you know? And so there’s for, for me, it’s the difference between striving and being led, and so I always just kind of really want to not strive in what I’m doing, but be led in what I’m doing, you know, and again, that just comes from, you know really seeking right, you know what, what seeking wisdom for really what what is the proper direction for your career, and each person is going to be in a different season, and so it’s always good to you know make those decisions and have that wisdom accordingly to what season you’re in.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:46

Yeah, yeah, and I love that, because that segues perfectly into my next question, which is, How has your definition of success evolved as your career has progressed?

Todd Williams: 1:03:00

Yeah, that’s, you know, answered that, I guess, in some ways is, you know, as you know, again, I’ve been paying out professionally now on my own for 25 years, I guess you could say, even those 10 years was still, I was still a professional artist, even though I was working for a company, you know, like Hallmark and Dayspring, but yeah, it really.. when I did that Legacy Nebraska series, to that entire collection of work, I loved it. I mean, it was so great. I mean, I started it, you know, when I was in my 40s, and then when I ended it, I was 50, and I was like, what happened to my 40s? But you know, I love painting so much, you know, and I like, I was telling you about the seven galleries, and I would get into the studio and my wife would come in and hey, you gotta eat, you need to eat supper. Oh yeah, I guess I should eat. Okay, and then she’d go, you know, it’s like midnight, I’m going to bed, you should probably come to bed. I’m like, well, I’m just going to paint for a couple more hours, and then the next thing I know, the sun’s coming up, I mean, this, this would literally happen to me, and I’m like, wow, but you know, you just get into it, I have, you know, just have so much, so much passion, and so much love for it, the time just flies by, and I don’t feel tired all the time, but now I’ve done that kind of caught up with me a little bit, and I had some shoulder issues, actually in both shoulders, and and so I had to start listening to my body a little bit more, and so now I’ll paint, and then maybe the next. Day, I won’t paint, I’ll kind of give my body a little bit of break, you know, not that I have to, but I’m just trying to be smart about it. And I avoided surgery, I didn’t have to have surgery, like I talked to some of my other peers and stuff, and they’ve had, excuse me, shoulder surgeries, and you know, other things have happened, you know, throughout their career and stuff like that, and I’ve always been careful. I don’t like to take medication, I like to be really natural, and you know, everything I take or what I put in my body, and so just to me now at this point my career, my health is really important to me, and so my art is still really important, but I have to listen and have wisdom about that, and then also then when it comes to the finances, you know, we’re at a point now where you know we’re more secure in our finances, I guess you could use the term I’m not as hungry as I was when I was younger, and that hunger can be great, that can help you know feed you and your success, but yeah, so that has changed for me, and I don’t produce as many paintings, you know, every year like I used to, but that’s okay, you know, I’m okay with that, and I’m very selective now on what I choose to do, like the different shows I’m in, the different galleries I’m in, you know, all those things, there’s so many opportunities for artists out there, which is great. I think there’s no better time to be alive and be an artist than now, because there’s more people that have knowledge of the arts, there’s more art appreciation, there’s so many great things that are going for us right now as artists, and there might be a multitude of more artists out there, you know, producing and wanting to become artists, but that’s great, I embrace that, there’s enough room for all of us to be successful, there really is, so it shouldn’t be a competition, but for me, like, I have more contentment in my heart to just live in the moment, and I think in one of our earlier discussions, my, my daughter Jessica has been able to help me, and it’s taken a while, but to set, sit back, relax, you know, and enjoy the moment that we have, because I think sometimes I’ve always been this person that I’m always doing this, so I can then attain that later, and I miss out on this, the moment that I have right now, and when I did the Legacy Nebraska collection, that did help me, though. It helped me, you know, when I stepped away from the galleries, and I began to just kind of travel throughout my home state. I did really enjoy that process, and it’s really about those relationships that I built as I look back now. I think those relationships were more important to me than even the work that was accomplished, and so I always, you know, if I have an opportunity, I always like to tell people that art, when you’re actually painting, it’s all about relationships, because you have to relate that one value next to the other value, you know, your darkest dark, your lightest light, that edge, you know how sharp or hard is that edge compared to this soft or even lost edge, here, you know, how what’s the highest chroma in your painting, and where should you place that, and then being selective on that, you know, because if you have so much chroma everywhere, it’s kind of chaos, right? And so something needs to kind of play the lead, you know, I want my paintings to be poetic and have that great power and centrality of focus within it, and so you have to use much reserve, but for me that came really from just, you know, stepping back, you know, and really analyzing things, you know, thinking more and painting less, and try and live in the moment and enjoy the moment, because before you know it, you know it’s gone, and so, but where I wanted to go with the relationships was there. Are only really two things that have eternal value in my mind, is our relationship with God and our relationship with each other. Most relationships will continue and have eternal value, and the things, these other things, you know, they are what they are, but just enjoy the process, you know, enjoy life now, where it’s at, and that, that would be the best advice I could give, you know, any, any artist listening today, it’s just enjoy where you’re at, and, and it’ll come, you know, keep working hard, keep persevering, don’t give up because you’ve been given that gift for a reason, so keep going, you got this, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:54

bravo. Yes, yes, I like to say that the journey is the destination, yeah, because it, it really, like, you know, when you start living in a moment, like you’re saying, it really makes you.. I don’t know, it feels like you relish it more. There’s, there’s more feeling in it, and sometimes, you know, you can look at a painting you did and look at a certain spot and be like, I remember exactly how I felt when I painted that spot, or what I was listening to, or, you know, or the conversation I had with So and So at that moment, and you start, you know, kind of embedding your work with your memories and the moments that you felt at that time, which is really beautiful too.

Todd Williams: 1:11:35

Yeah, that’s so true. I remember some of my trips, like, as you were talking, or reminded me of when I took a trip to Martha’s Vineyard, and I had a gallery there, and I was painting, and like when I got back home, and I had those plein air paintings, like those were just so precious to me, because each one held a memory, and so I ended up doing like just larger studio paintings based on my plain error studies, so I could keep those, like, and I still have those, you know, for my own personal collection, and CW Monday told me one time, too, like, even with, you know, you see my some of my European collection behind me, this is part of that, some of those solo exhibitions that I had at the Meyer Gallery, and I was just like, he was just like, you know, after all those series of pieces that you do, hold back a couple paintings, you know, keep some for yourself, you know, because that’s your maybe that’s your retirement, you know, maybe that’s a painting later, you know, right now it’ll sell for 10,020 years from now it’ll sell for 50,000 you know, you know that’s our hope, but yeah, I like to hang on to some of my paintings for my personal collection, because they do mean so much to me, and you’re right, it’s attachment to that moment in time,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:59

yeah, that’s that’s very smart, and also very, yeah, that’s I should start doing that too. Just start keeping some of my better pieces, and once I have like a good breadth of them,

Todd Williams: 1:13:13

don’t have to sell them all.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:15

Yeah, that is, that’s a good point. I think, of course, at first, when you’re early career, it’s harder to have that, just because I feel like when you’re starting out, it’s a lot harder to get like really, really, really good paintings, of course, and then as you start building that up, then it gets easier, but yeah, yeah, and then speaking also of exhibitions and shows and workshops, do you have any shows, anything coming up that you’d like to tell us about?

Todd Williams: 1:13:43

Oh, yeah. Well, I actually will be teaching with the Indiana Heritage Arts Group in Nashville, Indiana, and that’s part of the Brown County Art Gallery, also, and they’re celebrating their anniversary, and I was really honored, because I don’t know if you know much about the Brown County Art Group, but they had basically a colonization that was taking place there at the turn of the century, and you should, should Google that, Brown County artists, and similar to what was going on in Taos, right, you know, a lot of people are familiar with the Taos artist colonization in the early 1900s but the same thing was going on in this little town of Nashville, Indiana, which they call Brown County, and anyway, they asked me to come and teach a workshop there to their members, and so I’ll be doing that here later on this month, in May, and then I’ll be going back to my home state of Nebraska to Central City and teaching a workshop there in with the. Barrett County Museum, and last year was the first year that I did that, and they weren’t actually officially open, but they’re actually open now. It’s a brand new facility that they were able to get funding for, and so for me to go back to my hometown, you know, it’s just really great, and you know, my mom and dad still live there. My wife’s mom still lives there. You know, we have siblings that live there, and so that workshop is going to be june 29 30th, and july 1. It’s a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, kind of leading up to the Fourth of July weekend, so all that information is on my website, Todd Williams Fine art.com You can kind of go under the info. There’ll be like a workshop section specifically for that. As far as shows go, you know, I don’t really have.. we just got done with the Western Art Museum with the Roundup, which is an annual show that I do every year, and then I’ll be doing a four-person show with them in 2028 and that’ll be in September of 2028 and so that’s, you know, some pieces that I’m working on now, and kind of setting aside the Settlers West Gallery kind of represents me, I’ve been a part of their miniature show, and last year I was part of their, their fall show that they do, and that’s in Tucson, Arizona, and the other thing is I am the executive director of a nonprofit art group here in Northwest Arkansas, and we, about three years ago we started a process where we went into some of the state and national parks, and we held plain air events, and so at those plain air events we would give out cash awards, you know, we’d have prizes, merchandise awards, they would paint for, you know, two or three days, and then we’d have like an exhibition, and then award ceremony. So we did that at seven different locations throughout the state of Arkansas. And then this year, in 2026 in January, that body of work, it’s a 50 works of art with 25 artists, it has their plein air painting. They selected one of the plein air paintings from one of the parks, and then as a study, and then they also then a did a studio painting based on that smaller plein air study. So it’s kind of like a fill to finish exhibition where viewers can come in and see that process of the artists that kind of go through, and then that’ll be traveling throughout the entire state of Arkansas for 2026 and 2027 So this is kind of the book that we put together. Also, it’s a celebration of nature and art, painting the art itself parks and Governor Huckabee Sanders, she wrote a really nice two-paragraph quote for us for the exhibition, and then Shay Lewis, who’s the executive director of the parks department and the secretary, he also wrote the forward for a book, and we kind of used some of those quotes, you know, in the exhibition, and we have that show opening up, and it’s called Arts on Main, it’s a museum in Van Buren, Arkansas, and we have an opening reception on that on may 15, but you could go to that website if you’re interested, it’s Heart of America artist.com and that’s plural artist.com so Heart of America, so

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:14

yeah,

Todd Williams: 1:19:14

a lot of stuff going on, so it keeps me busy,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:17

yeah, yeah, and I’ll include all of the links in the show notes as well, so if anyone’s interested, they can just go to the show notes and find the links there. But yeah, thank you so much, Todd, for the conversation and for the inspiration. And yeah, it’s.. it’s.. I have a lot of notes now.

Todd Williams: 1:19:38

Thank you, Laura. I appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:40

Of course, thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

Some artists wait for the right school, the right mentor, the right gallery, or the right moment.

Tanner Steed started with what he had.

When formal atelier training was not available, he studied the curriculums of the schools he admired, bought the books and casts, copied masterworks, practiced from life, and built his own path one disciplined step at a time.

In our conversation with Tanner Steed on the FASO Podcast, he shared how persistence, self-directed training, community, and a commitment to mastery helped him become a full-time artist.

We felt that pulling out these lessons in a more organized, and shorter, format would be useful to our subscribers. So, our team worked with ChatGPT to get these organized this newsletter and then edited and enhanced the result. Please let us know in the comments if you like or dislike such a use of AI.

Here are ten lessons from Tanner’s story:

1. You do not need permission to begin

Tanner did not wait for perfect circumstances. He asked: What can I do from where I am?

That question is powerful. You may not have the ideal teacher, school, studio, or community yet. But you can still draw. You can still paint. You can still study. And, you can still improve.

The artist’s path begins when you start walking.

2. Treat art like a skill

Tanner studied human development and education before becoming a full-time painter.

That background taught him that art develops like other skills: through repetition, feedback, practice, and time.

Talent may give an artist a beginning. But practice gives an artist a future.

3. Build your own atelier

Tanner wanted classical training, but life circumstances made formal study difficult. So he built his own version.

He studied atelier methods, copied masterworks, practiced from casts, worked from life, and used every resource he could find.

Artists may not always get the exact training path they want. But they can still take responsibility for their education.

4. Let fear point you toward growth

When Tanner first saw Daniel Sprick’s work, he said it terrified him.

Not because it was dark or frightening, but because it revealed a level of mastery he could not yet understand.

Instead of turning away, Tanner moved toward it.

Sometimes the work that intimidates you is showing you the next mountain you need to climb.

5. Be persistent enough to be remembered

Tanner reached out to Daniel Sprick. He did not get a response.

So, he kept working. And he reached out again.

Eventually, Sprick invited him to his studio. That meeting became a mentorship, then a friendship, and eventually a place inside a real artistic community.

The lesson is simple: respectful persistence matters and hard work opens doors.

6. Paint from your life

Tanner emphasized painting from lived experience. He paints places he has traveled, things he has seen, and subjects that have actually entered his life. But he does not simply copy them. He heightens them. He tries to cast them into mystery.

An artist is not a camera. An artist reveals a relationship with the world.

This is what Clint means when he says, “A painter shows me what he painted but an artist shows me why.”

7. Start over and over again

One of Tanner’s best practical tips is to practice starts.

The beginning of a painting matters. Composition, value design, light and dark shapes, and the first arrangement often determine whether a painting has strength.

If the beginning is weak, rendering may not save it.

So Tanner starts again and again, exploring different compositions and different possibilities before becoming too attached.

A strong painting often begins as a strong design. This applies to many art forms. Writers also often tear up beginnings and start again. A great work of art often starts by finding the better story to tell.

8. Do not chase the ideal collector too early

When asked about finding an ideal collector, Tanner gave a refreshing answer: Just paint what you love.

If you love flowers, paint flowers. If you love landscapes, paint landscapes. If you love mushrooms, paint mushrooms.

There is room in the world for sincere work.

Collectors are not only buying subject matter. They are buying conviction.

9. Begin with the people who already support you

Tanner’s first collectors were family, friends, family friends, and early supporters. He hosted small shows in homes, invited people into the experience, and built relationships from there.

There is no shame in starting close to home. A collector base often begins with the people who already want to see you succeed.

Word of mouth is your greatest marketing, and a reputation is built one human interaction at a time.

10. Build more than one leg under the table

Tanner sells through galleries, direct collector relationships, his website, teaching, workshops, studio events, and educational content. That matters.

A sustainable art career is rarely built on one gallery, one platform, one show, or one lucky break.

It is built through several connected paths that support the artist over time.

The deeper lesson: become the last one standing

Near the end of the interview, Tanner said something that will shock most artists:

He believes it is actually easy to make it as an artist if you are willing to put in the work and truly believe it is possible.

The harder goal is mastery. The harder goal is becoming good enough to stand in conversation with the artists you most admire. This is the deepest goal. Mastery before marketing. Or more correctly, mastery is the best marketing.

You must cultivate, above all, the desire to make something worthy. Clint discussed this in his article The Heart of an Amateur.

Tanner’s story is a reminder that the artist who succeeds is not always the one with the most access, the best school, or the perfect opportunity. Often, it is simply the artist who keeps going.

The one who studies. The one who starts again. The one who reaches out. The one who paints what he loves. The one who refuses to wait for permission.

The one who decides to become the last one standing.

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PS — OUR SPRING SALE ENDS MONDAY JUNE 15th.

We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

Our use of AI in this article: Some of you may bristle at our use of AI for this, so we’d like to explain: Our beef with AI is primarily when it is used in a way that reduces opportunities for artists. Our goal, in the places we do utilize AI, is to use it in a way that supports human artists.

For example, at FASO, we do not train AI on your artwork for the purposes of using it to generate alternative images. We do use AI to protect your artwork from scrapers (including other AI bots) and to detect and block spam. And we are exploring the use of AI in ways that send more art lovers and collectors to our customers.

As always, The FASO Way is an open forum, so we’d love to know what your opinion of such AI use is in the comments. And, please, as we always request, all comments must be dignified and respectful of us and of your fellow artist colleagues who may have differing points of view. We are in this together, so discussion, and even debate, is important. But hateful or threatening comments will be blocked.

One of the best things about our recent conversation on The FASO Show with Debra Keirce was that she said out loud what many artists quietly suspect:

There is no single right way to build an art career. There is only the art career that fits the actual artist who has to live it.

That matters, because many artists are quietly tormenting themselves by chasing someone else’s definition of success. One artist wants gallery representation. Another wants direct sales. Another wants to teach. Another wants museum recognition. Another simply wants art to remain a joyful part of retirement.

Those are not the same goals.

So why would they require the same marketing plan?

This episode was so good, our team asked ChatGPT to pull out the most important points. We felt that pulling out these nine lessons in a more organized, and shorter, format would be useful to our subscribers. Our team worked with ChatGPT to get these points organized in the clearest format that we could. And then we went through and edited them for presentation and clarity.

Some of you may bristle at our use of AI for this, so we’d like to explain: Our beef with AI is primarily when it is used in a way that reduces opportunities for artists. Our goal, in the places we do utilize AI, is to use it in a way that supports human artists.

For example, at FASO, we do not train AI on your artwork for the purposes of using it to generate alternative images. We do use AI to protect your artwork from scrapers (including other AI bots). And we will use AI in ways that send more art lovers and collectors to our customers.

As always, The FASO Way is an open forum, so we’d love to know what your opinion of such AI use is in the comments. And, please, as we always request, all comments must be dignified and respectful of us and of your fellow artist colleagues who may have differing points of view. We are in this together, so discussion, and even debate, is important. But hateful or threatening comments will be blocked.

Here are ten truths from Debra’s conversation that every artist should consider:

1. Don’t take advice from people whose lives you don’t want

Before Debra takes advice from someone, she looks at the life their advice appears to have produced. Are they happy? Have they sold the kind of work they are teaching others to sell? Has their own marketing worked? Do they seem grounded?

The art world is full of advice. Some of it is useful. Some of it is wrong for you. Some of it is sold by people who are better at selling advice than selling art.

A sovereign artist does not reject help. But a sovereign artist discerns which voices deserve authority.

2. Your art career is a triangle

Debra described the artist’s life as a triangle of time, money, and quality.

And, unfortunately, you usually cannot maximize all three at once.

If you optimize for money, you may sacrifice time, freedom, or joy. If you optimize for quality, you may sacrifice short-term income. If you optimize for time, you may knowingly leave money on the table. This is simply facing reality.

With this in mind, the question is not simply, “What is the best way to market art?”

The better question is, “What is the best way for me to market my art in this season of my life?”

3. You cannot do everything at once

Debra did not begin her full-time art career immediately. She built an engineering career, raised children, stabilized her life, and came to art professionally later. You might say she optimized for money, first. Clint discusses this concept in his forthcoming book, The Sovereign Artist in the section on the importance of independence. You can’t be sovereign if you’re always desperate for work to sell.

Unfortunately, many artists feel guilty because they cannot do everything at once. They cannot raise children, pay bills, build skills, create a body of work, market consistently, attend every event, and post every day.

But sometimes the season you are in simply does not allow that. And that does not mean you are not an artist. It means you are living a human life.

Be graceful with yourself and remember that a small flame can be tended, even when it cannot yet become a bonfire.

4. The best marketing plan is one you can sustain

Debra knows there are ways she could make more money. She could teach more online. She could structure commissions more aggressively. She could narrow her work into one highly marketable lane.

But, and this is important, she has learned what she enjoys and what she does not.

That is wisdom, not laziness.

If you hate social media, then a plan that depends entirely on social media will probably fail. If you love teaching, then hosting workshops and demonstrations may be natural. If you love people, then in-person events may be your strength. If you love writing, then make email your marketing lynchpin.

The best marketing strategy is not the sprint that looks impressive for three weeks, it is the marathon you are still running three years from now.

5. Commissions are not just transactions

Debra spoke beautifully about the commissions she still accepts. She does not do a huge number of them. But the ones she does take often connect to grief, memory, celebration, or love.

Artists who do commissions should not merely say, “I accept commissions.” That diminishes what art is—sending love through form.

A better message is: “I help people preserve something they love.”

A portrait, a home, a pet, a landscape, a wedding, a family memory, a loved one who has passed — these things are not merely subjects. They are personal myths that make the story of one’s life sing.

That should change how artists talk about commissions on their websites.

6. Your legacy may already be showing itself

Debra said she did not think much about legacy earlier in her career. But looking back, she can see patterns: the Coast Guard collection, the Langham Hotel portraits, narrative realism, nostalgia, skill, memory, and works that make people smile.

That is often how legacy works.

It is not always invented in advance. Sometimes it is discovered by looking honestly at what has already emerged.

What themes keep returning in your work? What do people come to you for? What opportunities keep opening? What would you be proud to be remembered for?

You don’t make up your brand; your reputation, you discover it.

7. Define your non-negotiables

Debra returns again and again to skill development, networking, volunteerism, peer engagement, and showing up.

Every artist needs some version of this.

You don’t need a giant productivity system or a 47-step marketing plan. You just need a few non-negotiable practices that keep the career moving.

Keep making new work. Keep improving your skill. Keep your website current. Keep sharing. Keep building relationships. Keep following up. Keep putting yourself in rooms where art is being discussed, shown, taught, or collected.

An art career usually moves a nanometer at a time.

A conversation here. A newsletter there. A show where you gain three new collectors. A collector note that touches your heart. A website update with work you are proud of. A new painting that takes your vision to the next level.

Drip. Drip. Drip. A constant drip of water cuts through stone.

8. You may become excellent and still not become famous

Debra named a hard truth: you may become very skilled and still never become a superstar. The world does not distribute attention in proportion to skill. It does not distribute fame in proportion to effort. But that is only devastating if fame is the goal.

What is popular is not the same as what is good. In fact, they are often inversely proportional. True artists pursue the good. Sometimes they get popular.

For most artists, a better goal is resonance: to make work true enough, skillful enough, and visible enough that the right people; the people who care, can find it.

9. Envy is wasted motion

Debra was blunt about envy, victimhood, and artist circles that spiral into complaint. And she is right.

Envy does not make better work. It does not build better relationships. It does not help collectors find you. It does not improve your website, strengthen your skills, or deepen your vision.

It only burns energy that should have been used for growth.

The right artist community asks, “What can I do next?”

The wrong one keeps asking, “Why did they get what I deserved?”

10. Your real audience is gathered over time

A magazine feature, an award, or a viral post may create a spike in followers. But many of those people will fall away. They were interested in the event, not necessarily the artist. Your real audience is the group that remains.

They are the people who open the emails, visit the website, and come back to the booth. They ask about the new series. They remember a painting they saw three years ago. And, eventually, they become collectors, students, patrons, or friends. Clint likes to share an anecdote that one of his best collectors took over three years of follow ups to make the first purchase.

Your follower count is not your collectors. Your collectors are those who enter into a relationship with you.

And this is why artists need a home base: a website, an email list, a collector list, a body of work, a story, and a way for people to return. (We just happen to have what we consider the best home base for you at FASO. There are details at the end of this article if you’re looking for a great deal on a website).

The deeper lesson

Marketing, for the artist, is not the act of becoming more marketable. It is the act of making the true work findable by the people it was meant to reach.

Yes, the practical work matters, so keep your website, build the list, tell the story, attend the events, follow up, share the work, improve your craft, and please, please, make it easy for people to inquire, buy, commission, or learn more.

But underneath all of that is the real work: Know who you are. Know what you are building. Know what you are willing to sacrifice. And know what you are not willing to sacrifice.

No one else can build your art career for you.

And once you know what kind of art life you are trying to live, marketing becomes much clearer.

And clarity is where true sovereignty begins. So, as the inscription over the Oracle of Delphi implored: Know Thyself.

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PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

Please click the Like button — the little heart icon at the top and bottom — if you want to see a procession of tiny studio shamans bless your brushes, refill your courage, and send living water flowing toward every thirsty soul.

Also, back here in ordinary reality, your like helps this essay reach more artists and art lovers, which helps us keep promoting the arts and supporting artists. Thank you.

True artists are the modern versions of spiritual guides; sages; mystics; mages; shaman. The artist has the advantage over the traditional sage in that artists create magical objects to spread their influence. Their art amplifies their reach. And, like the guru, the artist’s job is to inspire, to uplift, to encourage, to save, and to guide souls home.

Perhaps that sounds far-fetched, but, when you think about it, religious ritual itself is a form of art. It’s performance art presented as a gift to God with the goal of guiding souls home. The priest is a kind of artist — part writer and part performer — who must create an inspiring message and lead the rituals.

⚜️ Advertising note—we have a special offer that ends this month for half off your first year of a FASO website. If you’ve been waiting, now is the time. The details are below, after the essay.

I’m merely suggesting that the “performance” of all art — the creation of all art — contains the same power. The ritual and the creation of art are both gifts to God, crafted with love, and presented publicly to invite others, also, to participate. And in such participation, if the perceivers open their hearts, they too will experience, at least for a moment, the unveiling of The Mystery. Ritual is Art. Art is ritual.

When art is created and shared from love, it reaches those who need it. Love and water do not flow to the higher places; they seek always the lower. As the old Hindu proverb says: the tree that bears much fruit bows low. Living water flows downhill. Love always flows downhill. Just look at who Jesus spent most of his time loving.

When art is made from love, the divine flows into you and overflows outward through your work to those whose souls thirst. This is the ancient magic.

Leave a comment

PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO

Learn the magic of marketing with us here at FASO!
https://www.boldbrushshow.com/

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For today’s episode we sat down with Linda Doll, an 84‑year‑old lifelong multimedia artist. Linda shares how a childhood spent drawing in Brooklyn and studying at the Brooklyn Museum eventually led her to pursue art seriously after age 30, culminating in graduating with honors in painting and printmaking. She describes a pivotal moment with California watercolorist Rex Brandt, whose advice to “start with your strength” helped her stop imitating others, list her own strengths, and finally claim her unique artistic voice. Linda explains that when she began painting her family and scenes of peaceful, everyday life purely for herself, that work unexpectedly became her signature style, winning major awards, building an international reputation, and leading to teaching engagements around the world. She emphasizes that artists should find a niche at the intersection of what they love, what they’re good at, and what others respond to, while being realistic about business: pricing low at first, raising prices gradually, and building a solid collector base. Linda also shares practical and philosophical advice on staying creative over a lifetime—working in series, experimenting with multiple media, adapting to physical limitations, and maintaining a daily practice of “wetting the brush” or drawing. Above all, she urges aspiring full‑time artists to be themselves, trust their inner voice, and use their personal strengths so they’re leading with their own vision rather than constantly chasing trends. Finally, Linda tells us about her upcoming demos and urges us to keep up with her events by visiting her website!

Linda’s FASO Site:
lindadoll.com/

Linda’s Tutorials and Mentorship:
lindadoll.com/page/13300/videos-and-classes

Linda’s YouTube Channel:
youtube.com/@lindadoll

Linda’s Social Media:
facebook.com/lindaadoll/
instagram.com/lindadoll5/

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Transcript:

Linda Doll: 0:00

Yes. And again, I think a lot of artists, they don’t know who they are, they don’t know where they want to go, they don’t know what their style is, what is their artistic voice? And what I learned is it’s your own voice. It’s the voice you already have. But we’re afraid to use. Rex once said to me, if you are copying somebody else, or if you’re not using your strength, you’re always running to catch up. If you use your strength in your own voice, you’re always two steps ahead and everyone’s trying to catch you. Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe the Fortune favors of BOLDBRUSH. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn about or sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others we’re in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Linda doll, an 84 year old, lifelong multimedia artist, Linda shares how a child had spent drawing in Brooklyn and studying at the Brooklyn Museum eventually led her to pursue art seriously after age 30, culminating and graduating with honors in painting and printmaking, she describes a pivotal moment with California watercolorist Rex Brandt, whose advice to start with your Strength helped her Stop imitating others, list her own strengths and finally claim her own unique artistic voice. Linda explains that when she began painting her family and scenes of peaceful everyday life purely for herself, that work unexpectedly became her signature style, winning major awards, building an international reputation and leading to teaching engagements around the world. She emphasizes that artists should find a niche at the intersection of what they love, what they’re good at, and what others respond to while being realistic about business, pricing low at first, raising prices gradually and building a solid collector base. Linda also shares practical and philosophical advice on staying creative over a lifetime, working in series, experimenting with multiple media, adapting to physical limitations and maintaining a daily practice of wetting the brush or drawing above all. She urges aspiring, full time artists to be themselves, trust their inner voice and use their personal strengths so they’re leading with their own vision, rather than constantly chasing trends. Finally, Linda tells us about her upcoming demos and urges us to keep up with her events by visiting her website. Welcome Linda to the FASO podcast. How are you today? I am fabulous. Thank you. Awesome. I’m so excited to have you because you have an incredible breadth of work and technique, and you’re such an explorative artist. And it’s really wonderful to talk to someone who just goes with the flow and just goes wherever their their inspiration takes them. Because I find that to be really inspiring. I think many of us hear the tip of like, Oh, you got to focus on one thing. But I think not for everyone. You know, I don’t think it works for everyone, and I love that you really have made it work for you. So I’m really happy to have you and to be able to pick your brain. Oh, thank you. Welcome, yeah. But before we dive into more of your work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do? I’m an 84 year old artist, still working, still producing, still absolutely loving art, still loving learning, still enjoying experimenting, as you just said, I I love trying new things and just just really, you know, pilots love to fly, and they get paid well. And I always figured that artists work hard, and we should get paid well, but they love to fly and I love to produce art. So that’s been my philosophy my whole life.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:50

Yes, and that’s a great philosophy to have, because I think, obviously, you know, the economy is important, but at the same time, I mean, if you’re going to be painting something that makes you miserable, you might as well get a normal day job, because then you know for sure your paycheck is coming in, you know. But yeah. And then, since you’ve been painting for a very long time, I wanted to ask you as well, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist

Linda Doll: 4:20

as child, I spent every moment I had drawing. I would draw my own paper dolls, and I would draw the clothing for them, and I would sit on a blanket. I lived in Brooklyn, New York, in a in an apartment house. I wasn’t allowed out to play. We didn’t have a backyard, so my mother would lay a blanket down in the foyer, and I would sit on the blanket and pretend I was on the beach, and she would give me a picnic lunch that I would sit and I would draw for hours, and then she would take me to the Brooklyn Museum, and I would it was the only place that was cool in Brooklyn. And it was during the period when polio was a national epidemic, and so you weren’t allowed to get hot or be out in the sun or be out in the heat. And the Brooklyn Museum was a big stone building that was cool. And so I would go take several art classes and drawing classes, and I would spend a good amount of my summer at the Brooklyn Museum. So I actually have been drawing since I was little, but I was not good enough to be in the art club in high school. I hate to say this. I think the nun just wanted girls that would become nuns, and I wasn’t good material, so I thought I wasn’t good enough. And so many artists go through the period where they doubt themselves, where they don’t think they’re good enough, where they almost walk away from it because they’ve been embarrassed by teachers that that said they weren’t good or they didn’t do something right. And so I didn’t do art then for a while. And then after my children were born, an adult ed teacher was teaching a watercolor class, an oil class, actually, at a local school. And I want, I thought, Oh, I think I’ll go take a class. And she was the one that really encouraged me to not just do it as a hobby, but to do it seriously, that I had talent and that I should use it. And so then I went to junior college and went to college, and I didn’t graduate college until my daughter graduated high school. So even though I always drew and I always painted, I didn’t really take it serious until I was what 30 years old, and I graduated with honors, with painting and printmaking from San Diego State, and everything was so easy and fun for me and I, I just loved it. And so that’s when I got really, really serious. And we moved about that time. Well before that, we moved from, well, we moved from New York to New Jersey to to Massachusetts to Florida, then to California. When I came out here, I fell in love with the California School of watercolor and Rex Brandt and George post and George Gibson. And I was very fortunate to be able to study with all of them, Millard sheets, you name, the whole California school. And I had the opportunity to take workshops or classes from every one of them, but I realized I wasn’t really a Californian. I was, I almost want to say, by coastal, the New York influence. I couldn’t quite get rid of there was this back and forth, so I spent a lot of time trying to be somebody else. And again, I think a lot of artists, they don’t know who they are, they don’t know where they want to go, they don’t know what their style is, they don’t know what their personality is. You know their voice? What is their artistic voice? And what I learned is, it’s your own voice. It’s the voice you already have, but we’re afraid to use and so we spend a lot of time copying other people, or looking at other work and thinking, Oh, I could do that. Oh, I could do that. But Rex once said to me, if you are copying somebody else, or if you’re not using your strength, you’re always running to catch up. If you use your strength in your own voice, you’re always two steps ahead and everyone’s trying to catch you. And I really liked that statement, and I remember he gave a lecture on Start with your strength, this exact topic. And when he was done, I was very puzzled, because it didn’t make sense to me. So I went up to him and I said, Rex, if that’s true, why do you keep telling me not to draw so much? I know California painters like to draw direct. I mean, paint direct, but why if I like to draw Do you tell me not to? And he thought about it for a minute, and then he said to me, I guess because it’s not my strength. And that was the day I found my voice, and I decided I went home from that workshop. I was fortunate enough to be his assistant every summer for four summers, and to stay in his home and be with he and his wife, Joan Irving Brandt, who are fabulous artists. And I went home and I decided that I. Had to make a list of what are my strengths and what are my weaknesses, and how could I use my strengths and stop always fighting my weaknesses? And so I decided that drawing was my strength, organization was my strength, the grid system was my strength. Very clean, transparent color was my strength. Mixing color was my strength, and I made a list of what I wasn’t good at. And impromptu was not I was not good at impromptu. I wasn’t good on just sitting in front of a piece of paper and trying to imagine this whole painting. I like to see something, even if it was just the corner of the room and the shadows in the way the corner one wall played against the other. I need to see something to get inspired. And so I made this list. And about that time, my dad died, and I realized I had never painted anyone in my family, especially my dad, and I decided that I wanted to do my family in happy, healthy times, and I wasn’t going to worry about who bought it. I wasn’t going to worry about who liked it. I was going to paint a whole series of paintings for me. Well, that opened an entire world. So I did my mother sitting on the beach with my nieces and nephews. I did my husband with his son, my daughter on his shoulders. I did children playing nicely, and mother sitting relaxing, reading a book, I did all the things that I wanted my life to have was almost like I was painting the world I wanted to see. And one I had a party at my house. There was an artist in town, and everybody that came in went into my studio, and they came out with their I hadn’t showed the series to anybody. I had about 20 paintings, and I thought they were just color drawings, and nobody would like them, and they were just my family. And I wasn’t being serious, but I was enjoying myself. Every one of them came out and told me that that was my voice, that was who I was. That’s what I needed to do. I sent one to AWS and got one in immediately. I sent one to NWS, got in immediately, got my signature in both organizations. Won top awards in every show I entered, was asked to jury all over the world. My paintings went on a travel several travel shows for both organizations, people around the world saw my work and invited me to come teach in their state. So I’ve taught in every state and in probably 30 countries around the world, and all because I was doing something that I absolutely loved and meant something to me. And my people would ask, When is your painting successful? And I would say, when someone takes one moment and takes a deep breath, looks at it, and just takes one moment of silence in the day, or one minute of peace in the day. I’m not going to paint a Guernica. That’s not who I am. I’m not going to paint the atrocities of war. I think it’s wonderful that someone else does that, but it’s not me. I wanted to give pleasure and joy and peace to people. I’m a mother, and my aura is blue. I mean, I am the nurse, the mother, the you know, I take care of people, and so my paintings needed to do the same thing. I know that sounds kind of corny, but that’s, you ask me what I do, that’s what I do.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:05

Yeah, yeah. And your work definitely transmits a lot of peace and tranquility and calmness, and even just your use of color, you know, it, it’s, it’s so like these beautiful washes and, yeah, I can totally see, you know why I

Linda Doll: 14:23

paint every painting, no matter how large it is, with three colors, only

Laura Arango Baier: 14:28

awesome,

Linda Doll: 14:29

one red, one yellow and one blue. I use the printers colors. I use cyan, magenta and reproduction yellow. And I love mixing my own color. Absolutely love mixing color. To me, that’s just sheer pleasure. It’s food for my soul.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:46

Yeah, yeah. And actually, it’s so funny that you mentioned that I recently got myself cyan magenta and like, a proper yellow to try that out, because I know that you can actually mix red from that, which is something that people don’t realize. Mix red with like the magenta and the yellow.

Linda Doll: 15:03

Okay, on my web page, I actually have a full demonstration of me doing a painting that I did for Bulgaria, and I kept a copy of it and put it on my web page, and I take you through step by step and and wash by wash. So if anybody’s interested? It’s www Linda doll com, and it’s right on there,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:26

yeah, and I can also add the link to that in the show notes. So

Linda Doll: 15:31

yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:31

anyone out there,

Linda Doll: 15:32

they just enjoy seeing it. It’s a very different way to work. I work in I work in layers, almost as if it’s funny. When I was when I was, well, I’m still a teacher, but when I had some larger classes, I used to have people look at cards, calendars on the internet. Well, we didn’t have as much internet then, but any books and find something that they wish they had painted and they would have shown to a kindergarten teacher, a college instructor and a gallery owner of a gallery, they wanted to get in something that that they would show to a wide range of people and say, This is my this is my best work I did, and I did it myself as well, and I found out everything I loved was a Sarah graph, but I didn’t want to do serigraphs. But I got the idea that if I kind of did my watercolors as if I were doing a serigraph, layer by layer, that I could please myself. And that’s part of how my whole system, or not system, but my style developed. And so they’re very, very I wait for one layer to dry. You’ll, I mean, if you see the video, it’s, it really does explain exactly what I do. And so it became, I became very well known in my area, and especially in the gallery that I was in, and everybody wanted a painting of their family. I could do, I mean, I could have done commissions. I mean, I couldn’t do, I couldn’t do enough of them that, you know. I mean, they take time, and we some we talk about pricing. My pricing was fairly high for a watercolor and for what people were surprised that I was able to get the money that I could. But it’s all supply and demand. So if you have something that nobody else is doing and that they can’t get anywhere else. And if you’re lucky enough to find a family, which I did, who was very popular in town, who had me do their family, and everyone who came to their house then wanted one of their family. So yeah, supply and demand, find out where your audience is. Find out what are you good at, and what do people like that you do, and how can you combine that to make yourself very unique. And I know one of the questions you had asked me was, how do you find your voice, and how do you find your collector base? And part of it is finding being unique if you’re doing what everyone else is doing, it’s hard. It is a hard business anyway, so if you have something nobody else is doing. So I would ask artists, what do you love? What sport do you play? What hobby do you have? Maybe you want to just paint. I mean, you might not want to do figures, but if you did, maybe you want to do golfers on the golf course. I mean, there’s a market that boy you want to put, put one or two in the golf club. Everybody will want their painting on the golf course. So you know, or if you flowers, if you love to paint flowers, find a way to do them a little differently and then show them at the at a floral show, or show them at a botanical garden, or show them somewhere where people are really interested in flowers, and you might even or if You like pets, you might at the at your groomers. You may put your your paintings at your groomers or at your veterinarian. So figure out what it is you really love. What are you good at? What what paintings have people commented most of yours. When people come into your studio, what do they see? And say, Oh, I love that one. That’s your answer. That’s your clue. And like I say, Find something you do differently, and most of the time it’s something you’re already doing in your life. If you love to cook, maybe you want to paint vegetables. Tools and and kitchen stuff, and find a kitchen store or a gallery that that appreciates or do the the kitchen things differently. But that’s what I really strive for people to find where their heart is, what, what do they love, and then figure a way to paint that. And if you’re an abstract painter, then find a find a way to do your abstracts a little differently. Go to a furniture store and see what colors they’re showing. And maybe you could do your abstracts in that and show it in a furniture store. I know that everyone wants to be in a high class Gallery, and they want to have, you know, this high reputation, but the market is really hard right now. So if you want to make a living as an artist, you may have to start somewhere else, and then then you have the collector base to go to a gallery and say, yes, I’ve sold 200 paintings at the furniture store. I’ve sold so many paintings here my you know, my vet sells paintings every month. You need to have that collector base, or that that resume, that you have people like what you do, and they want to pay for it. And too many artists, I think, want to start out at the top, and they don’t want to work their way up. I’m sorry, but that’s a reality, and we all do that. It meet me as well. You know, it’s just yeah, but there are ways, if somebody really wants to try to make it, then the other way is classes. You know, having some classes, you might even start in your own studio, or you might start with adult ed programs. And a lot of times, students will buy paintings. And then I was working at the at the junior college when I got a call from Johanna Morell, who ran Flying Colors art workshops, and she took Americans all over the world on art workshops, and asked me to be one of her teachers. And I mean, I, you know, Italy, France, Germany, Japan, Bali, you name it, I’ve taught there because she took me to teach there. And so I made a really good living. I’m one the few artists that I know that that made a really, really good living being an artist, but I also worked very, very hard there, you know, I don’t know any occupation you have that you don’t work hard. So you can’t just play. It might be, it may feel like play, but you’re also working. You’re also doing the business side of art. You’re also promoting yourself. You’re having a website, you’re you’re putting stuff on social media. I’m a photographer as well, and I post a flower every single day on Facebook and Instagram, just to keep my name out there. When I do some new collages, I put it on both Facebook and Instagram, and I get all kinds of comments, and I often get a quote, is that one for sale? And I send them to my web page because I’ve got a shop on my web page. I’m I was in several galleries. Unfortunately, I’ve had to pull out temporarily. I’m dealing with a cancer, and I’m cancer free right now, but I’ve had a rough couple of years, so I pulled out, and my goal is next January to be back in the open market. But right now, I’m still producing. I’ve got a new body of work to put out there when I get back out there. And then my collage work, I’ve started to do collage, and I’m absolutely loving it. And was fortunate enough to take first place on one of the BoldBrush’s competitions, which was $1,000 award, which was fabulous. And any artist who’s not doing that and entering that is foolish. That gets your work out there. It gets you known. Having a newsletter from FASO is a wonderful way to go. I guess I’m talking too much about business. Did you have questions you wanted to ask? I’m

Laura Arango Baier: 24:24

sorry, no, it’s great. Um, I mean, I wanted to touch a little bit further on actually your work, because I know that you’ve experimented with a lot of different materials and different things. So my question is, how, like, Where does an idea begin for you?

Linda Doll: 24:45

In my dreams? No, not really dreams, I go to bed early. My husband has passed away, so I live alone, and so I often get in bed a little early knowing I’m going to lay there. For about an hour before I fall asleep. But I call that my creative time, and I just lay there quietly, and I think about, okay, I have a painting that’s going or I have a new series I want to start, and I have a little pen and pencil next to my bed, and all I have to write is one word. But last night like I was laying in bed, and I thought, doors. I want to do doors and windows. And so I I know exactly. I almost painted, not painted. I almost collaged a collage in my sleep and in my in that state of half sleep and half wake. And I wrote on the on the piece of paper, doors, windows. And when I got up this morning, I could visualize all the ideas I had so quiet time, meditation time. And there’s different ways to meditate. You can do that wide awake and fully dressed, but for me, laying in bed quietly before I fall asleep, seems to be when I get the very best ideas and the most creative ideas and things I never would have thought of for me any other way. Yeah, so it’s quiet time, and it’s just getting into a thinking state, or I don’t even say thinking, creative state of what haven’t I done? What can I try next? I’ve never done anything with windows and doors and somehow, and somehow, it always, it always seems to replicate my life. So there must be a window or door that’s going to open for me, because usually when I get an idea like that, it’s almost a foretelling of something to accept when something com I mean, that’s weird, but yeah, a lot of times it’s things that are happening in my life anyway, that I maybe haven’t even recognized. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 27:05

no, and that really that’s so cool because it also reminds me of the way that Dali used to get his ideas for his pieces, which is that he would take a nap, or he would be in that semi asleep state where he would start to fall asleep, and he would hold some keys in his hand, and the moment he would fall asleep, he would drop the keys, and then whatever image he had at that moment, he would write it down, or whatever word or anything. So it’s very reminiscent of that. And I think it’s really cool, because I think we really, when you really tap into that, it is such a wealth of deep inspiration. And sometimes you get goofy ideas, and maybe it’s not really one to pursue, but oftentimes you’ll get something that’s just like, Oh my gosh. Like, how, where did that come from? That was so perfect. You know,

Linda Doll: 27:54

by the way, I didn’t really respect Dolly for a long time, and I was teaching in catechism Spain, and I got to go to the dolly house and studio. Oh, my God, that man was one of the most creative people ever. I have a total respect, and I’m embarrassed that I wasn’t at a level I could appreciate him before that. But he was a genius. He really was, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 28:23

I agree he’s one of my favorites. I think there are, you know, just like with any any musician, for example, not every song is going to be your favorite, so not every painting of his is going to be my favorite, either, but there’s, I can definitely appreciate his breaking away from the norm, really persuading

Linda Doll: 28:45

what he had in his studio were unbelievable. I mean, creativity beyond what I could ever think of. Yeah, yeah. It was just what he was doing with mirrors, what he was doing with I mean, everything, and then I got to go to the museum with his jewelry, a visionary. I mean, just unbelievable. So and what? What I usually say when I don’t like somebody, I never say I don’t like them. I say, You know what, I’m not at a level yet where I can appreciate them. I haven’t learned enough about them. And once I did, wow, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:21

if you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May, with our special guest, Deborah Keirce. You can find the sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush. We inspire. Artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today, right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, that’s FASO.com forward slash podcast,

Linda Doll: 31:39

yes, I totally agree. And actually, speaking of you know that having like different materials, right? Because Dali worked with different materials, but you’ve been working with different materials for a while. Do you mind telling us a little bit more about the current technique or material that you’ve really, really gotten into? So when I was in school, they used to tell you you had to stick with one thing you had to be known for one thing. And I looked at all, you know, Picasso, I looked at Dolly, I looked at all these people, and I thought, well, how come they didn’t have to do that? Why do I have to do it if they didn’t? So I gave that up a long time ago, and so I do. I’m actually a Zentangle certified instructor, and I do great, big, huge Zentangle drawings. I do photography, I do digital collage, I do regular collage, I do watercolors, I go urban sketching every single week. I but you know what? They always look like mine. I don’t care which media I do, somehow I come out through all of them, and everybody always knows it’s mine, because somehow I’ve managed to, in every single one of them, come up with a Well, like I said earlier, certain colors, certain compositional devices, certain you know, I like the grid. I like the cruciform. I like I like simple I like big, simple shapes. So whether I’m doing a collage or whether I’m doing a watercolor or whether I’m doing photography, those things come through if I let them. And so, yeah, I right now I’m really enjoying collage, and I’ll tell you why. Right now I can’t bend over a full sheet watercolor, and I wasn’t able to paint, and I wasn’t going to give up doing art, and I decided I had to find something I could do, small and sitting with a pillow behind my back, and I needed to work with what I had to work with. And so I rearranged my studio. I don’t know if you can see behind me. I have a huge room, and I’ve got a huge drafting table, and I’ve got three short tables, and so each one is a station. And so the one behind me, with a nice chair with a with a back cushion, is where I can sit and do collage and not hurt and be able to work and get something done. And I just have to be creating. It’s, it’s food for my It’s like eating. You know, our body needs to eat and our soul needs creativity. So I, and I’m actually right now coaching for a Kathleen of got my, my brain just flipped out. Okay, my I’m coaching for Catherine rains class and helping her and answering questions for artists. And I just love that I can I had so many good teachers who. Shared with me, and I love sharing. There’s too much knowledge in that head not to share it, and it’s not mine. I didn’t make it up. It’s all been given to me, and I feel like I need to pass it on to the next generation. So this is really been fun. So she has 2000 students that she has an online class, and every other day, I go on and answer questions from the students, any question they want to ask about art they can ask, and I answer right online. And I am loving that. It’s really gotten me motivated to even do more of my own work.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:37

Yeah, yeah. I love that. And I think you mentioned a couple things there that I’m like, oh yes, you know, even one is that constraints oftentimes breed the most incredible ideas, or the best renewals of ideas. So like the constraint of you, okay, well, I can’t, you know, bend over and paint, but I will do something else that works within this constraint, I think that is, you know, it just, it’s that perseverance of, I need to make something. I need to do something. I have the same itch in my hands. I call it like the creative itch, like I’m, like, I’m itching. I need to hold something and use it to make a thing, any craft.

Linda Doll: 36:18

While I was sick, I made every one of my great grandchildren an afghan. I crocheted an afghan. I’m now making them, knitting them hats. My hands have to be doing something all the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:31

Yes, I relate so deep to that. And then I also wanted to circle back to something else you mentioned earlier about your ideas as well, which is the importance of quiet time, because I think also, especially if you’re knitting, crocheting, doing anything, that kind of shuts off your brain in a funny way and just lets you be in the moment, I also find that that really helps your brain decompress, and it becomes more of like, it’s almost like tilling the soil to allow like, little seeds to start to emerge. Because if you, if you start, you know, I guess if you, if you put too much information in your brain, and you don’t allow yourself to sift through it and to settle it in your head, you just end up really tired and overworked and burnt out, and then suddenly you you end up not doing anything for like, weeks. I don’t know if you relate to that, because you’re just

Linda Doll: 37:31

so tired. Yes, yeah, yeah, no, it’s that one hour, like I said, it’s, it’s one hour every night that I just lay there, and it’s I’m just amazed at how many how I can get into a creative state. And when I’m in my studio, I’m more productive, but I’m not as I don’t come up with new ideas as much. I tend to do more of what I do all the time, where, when I’m in that state, I, like, I said, I came, I can’t wait today to get and figure out how to do some windows and doors, and how to sketch some windows and doors and then put them into the collage. I mean, I’m, I have this whole idea of this whole new series. I’m like, yes, okay, I got another series to do, and I usually work in series. I will work on four to six pieces at a time, and they’ll all have something in common, so they all kind of hang together as a series. And then I may never go back to that series again, because I always want to be and sometimes people say, Well, can you do that in blue? And I’m like, a no, that needed to be red,

Laura Arango Baier: 38:51

yeah, yeah. And that actually also reminds me, you know, that stubbornness of like, just following your vision, and this is this, is it? This is what I’m being called to do. I think earlier, you also mentioned how artists, we work really, really hard. And you know, when you’re trying to find your voice as an artist, I think one of the hardest things is also to set aside all of those expectations of, oh, I should be doing this. I should be doing that. That’s also the hard work is staying as true to yourself as possible without I mean, yeah, it’s good to reference other artists, especially, you know, old masters and people that you admire, because nothing exists in a vacuum. It’s inevitable, but at the same time, you know it’s hard work to really just focus on your own vision and to stick to it without, you know, getting distracted by, like, oh, but it would be so cool, like, that guy over there is doing that, or that person over there is doing that. And, you know, it’s good to, once again, quiet time and to just strictly, you know, focus on, on your vision. Yeah,

Linda Doll: 39:56

my my goal, and I’m pretty. Strict with it is to either do a drawing or wet the brush every day. I don’t have to produce something. I don’t have to finish something. It might just be a sketch in my sketchbook. As I say, I go out urban sketching a lot, and those sketches never come out of the sketchbook. But it’s me working. It’s thinking, it’s my hand eye coordination staying sharp. It’s so every day, I just set time aside. And it’s usually in the morning, I usually get a cup of coffee and go in the studio, and then after about an hour, if I have other things to do, then they get done. But I put art first,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:44

yeah, I mean,

Linda Doll: 40:46

and maybe only for a short time, but like today, I have some appointments and things I have to do. So well, this is art. I count this, but typically I would go in the studio with my cup of coffee for an hour and do something, and in collage, it might just be making more papers I’m going to collage with, or it may be actually doing a full collage. Or it might be when I was doing my watercolors, it might be just doing the drawing and coming back the next day and putting on some washes, and it might be another day before I put finish it. I don’t have to finish a project at one time, but I have to work every day. Yes, and it’s

Laura Arango Baier: 41:30

that consistency that really just beats out anything. I mean, every artist that I’ve interviewed and has been successful and has, you know, just really reaped the rewards of the career is there. They’ve all been so, so, so adamant about consistency. And it makes perfect sense, because it really does, like it, like, in your case, right? You have, like, I’m just gonna paint my loved ones on the beach and I’m gonna stay consistent with, you know, the theme and the way that they’re laid out, and how much you know the inspiration behind it. You’re you’re not just painting this. Oh, well, I guess I gotta paint another one. No, you’re definitely doing it from place of love.

Linda Doll: 42:11

So even that series had a series within a series. So when my father first died, I did a lot of paintings of fathers with children. And then when I got what I called finished with that, then I did mothers with children. Then when I got done with that, my mother started to date somebody. And I did a whole series of senior citizen romance and seniors holding hands and walking on the beach. And then when that got done, I did a whole series of shadows and reflections. Every painting had to have a shadow and a reflection. And then when I got done with that, I did a series of bocce ball players. And then I did a series of golfers. So even within the series. I didn’t allow myself to get bored or to get complacent. I continually kept asking myself, what else could you do that’s still in that series? And then in the meantime, I’d be doing the commissions of people as well, and I didn’t really enjoy the Commission’s as well as the ones that I really wanted to do. But one of the other things you touched on was financial and people needing to make money. I mean, we need to live, and the cost of living has just gotten huge. So the commission was, wasn’t my create. It was creative, but it wasn’t my real creative time. But I knew that I could make a lot of money. I could make enough that I could take several days and do my own paintings. And when it came to pricing, I actually priced it based on whether there was 1234, people in the painting, and whether there was a pet in the painting, and you know, a lot of times it was families of four and a pet, well, that takes a long time. And like I say, I was fortunate enough, my prices got up there really high. And that is a problem that I want to tell people about. When your prices get too high, you better have a good collector base, because it’s a lot easier to sell less expensive paintings. But once you go up, you can’t come down, so be careful. Excuse me, be careful. When you’re a new painter, don’t think you can get what the advanced painters, or the painters who have been painting and having a collector base for years get just because you think yours is as good as theirs, doesn’t mean everybody else thinks that. So my advice to new painters was always to start lower and have series, and when they sell out, raise the price on the next series and raise it a little bit every single time, until you have a nice collector base, absolutely. But I see way too many painters who say, Oh, but I don’t want to really sell it. I’m going to put a $5,000 price on it. Like, who’s going to buy it? Come on and it’s it. There’s something about selling a painting that motivates you to paint another painting or two more. It’s just a nice satisfaction when it’s not your family, when it’s a total stranger who comes to you and says, Oh, I love that. That reminds me of my son and his wife. I want to buy that. Man. Do you start you it’s, it’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s energy, food. So I know we have a wide range. We have very advanced painters on this call, but we also have some new ones. And I would say, go up slow with your pricing it. And I think Frank Webb used to always say that a 200 if you’ve done 200 paintings, you’re a beginner. If you’ve done 500 paintings, you’re an intermediate. And until you get to 1000 paintings, you’re not an advanced painter. So stop thinking, because you did five paintings, you’re an advanced painter.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:30

That is true. That is Yeah, true, yeah. And, but then how did, how did you figure out your pricing strategy? Besides, you know, just having, like, different, oh, that’s these different characters. Like, where was your starting point? Like, did you look at other people’s work and compare? Or, how did that go?

Linda Doll: 46:48

I started out in a co op gallery. And Co Op galleries, you work one day a week, and you’ll pay a much less commission. And I started, I started lower, and I had a price for every size. Excuse me, every size had a different price range. So with watercolor, it was quarter sheet, half sheet, three quarter sheet and full sheet was, you know, where the size is approximately. And I know a lot of people do it with measurements. They take the width and the height, and then they multiply it by an amount, and that’s a really good way to go. And so I started at what I thought was a very reasonable price. The San Diego watercolor society sells a lot of work. So I looked at what price they were selling at. And at that time I was president of the Society, so I had all the information that I needed. And so I went on the low side, and when I started to sell quite a few of them. Then every January 1, I would raise the price a little bit okay, and every single year I would raise the price just a little bit on January 1, and the old pieces would stay at the regular price, and the new pieces went up. And that worked for me. And I was fortunate, this Co Op gallery sold a lot, and a gallery in La Jolla ona happened to come in, loved my work and invited me to go to her gallery. Then it was 50% commission. But then I raised my prices considerably more because the co op gallery was 20% so I had to take a little higher jump. I also had to absorb a little bit. It kind of was a compromise of what I would raise the prices to, and then I kept raising them every January 1.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:50

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I’m guessing you didn’t raise it like, let’s say you may raise it like, about

Linda Doll: 48:55

10% Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:57

there you go. That makes perfect sense. Yeah? Also because, you know, inflation, change of concepts,

Linda Doll: 49:03

um, La Jolla has a lot of visitors. So even though it was a little annoying, not annoying, just a little extra work, um, I told the gallery that they could unframe My piece, I would put a com, what I called complimentary framing, which was a good archival mat, nice thick, you know, a ply mat, and a Nielsen metal frame, which was very easy to just undo two screws and take it out. And if anyone traveling, well, I didn’t care if they were traveling, but if anybody wanted the painting, then she would unframe it. And we had a deal that if they only, if they wanted the mat, if they didn’t want the frame, she could take off 10% if the they didn’t want the mat in the frame, she could take off 20% and roll it, put it in a tube, and she. Take 10% off for shipping it to them, where they were, you know, I mean, and we shared the, the the I didn’t take the full, you know, but she had so many people, and then I would go in and pick the frame up, bring it home and put another painting in it, bring it back and deliver it again. So it was a little extra work. But like I said, there’s, there’s some parts of the business that are just plain work,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:25

yeah, yeah. It’s a lot of taking care of all the little things like that, like the, oh, making sure that the piece is framed and that the frame is working and that it has, of course, your signature has the math, that everything is smooth, and then delivering the pieces. It’s the

Linda Doll: 50:44

other thing I just popped in my head. I always advise artists never to date their paintings on the front, because the minute they see a date on the front of last year or the year before, they always say, Do I get a discount? It’s an old painting, and it may be one of the best paintings I’ve ever done, and I kept it in the studio for a year because I wanted to grow into it. So I always tell people not to, to put that date on the front, that that can be a real deterrent to people buying it if they think it’s old and nobody else wanted it,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:19

yeah, oh, I’ve never heard that, but that’s, I mean, that’s kind of silly. Can I get a discount? As it were, machines,

Linda Doll: 51:26

the other thing I usually tell people, if they’re working on paper, is to sign their paintings with a graphite pencil and a good number two, I mean, to be because if they, if they take your painting and they try to reproduce it, the the reproduction will flatten the signature. And if you use a to be pencil, and you look on the side, you can actually see the graphite, and even framed, you can tell if it’s an original or a print.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:59

Interesting, that’s

Linda Doll: 52:01

a Yeah, yeah. Now not all media you can sign with pencil, but if it’s possible, I do prefer to sign with something that won’t reproduce, that will reproduce flat, and then when people can’t just make prints of your work,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:16

yeah, yeah. That’s a really good tip. Um,

Linda Doll: 52:20

yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:21

And then I also want to, I want to go back a little bit, because I want to ask you about what your transition to becoming a full time artist was like, like, what was the moment where you were like, Oh my gosh, I’m making a living from this. What was that like for you?

Linda Doll: 52:38

Um, so I was pretty much a hobbyist in teaching at the the junior college. You know, I mean, I was half serious, half professional and half not. And when I started to work for a flying colors art workshops, and I started teaching workshops, and my income went up severely. And at that time, my husband was starting his own company, a computer company, and financially, we really needed me to have an income. And I realized that I was making really good money and I could become and that a lot of my students would buy my pieces. So not only and that at that time, a lot of the watercolor societies all over the USA knew me and started asking me so every single month, all year, I traveled one week a month or two, and taught all over the US and all over the world. And my husband had to take care of the kids, but he knew that that’s what we needed to do to get his business up and going, and it kind of forced me to become professional, and to to to to accept that I was a professional. Um, sometimes it’s hard everyone else accepts us, except ourselves, and we need to be put in a situation where we say, Yes, this is how much I charge. This is I am a professional. I would love to come and do your workshop, but this is my rate. This is what I do, and this is what I give. And I actually made a course manual that I gave to all my students, that was never available for sale. And so when somebody came to my class and say, Illinois or Chicago or somewhere, they’d go home and they’d show their their their course manual to their sister or their brother or somebody, and then another organization would say, my sister was in your class. I want you to come to Florida. I want you to come to Alabama. And so word of mouth was really you could take ads in magazines, and unless people knew you, and unless someone else had taken your class. So once it got the ball, got. Rolling. Wow, it just, it just really got rolling. And so every single month I had a very good income. And so I was making $700 a day, plus all expenses. And if you do that for a week or two, and then you have two weeks to go home and paint in your studio anything you want. So that was for me really, um, I just got thrust into it,

Laura Arango Baier: 55:31

yeah, yeah. But I think the gosh, I Oh, that is so it’s so interesting, because I think a lot of artists relate. There’s like that feeling of like, you said, like, imposter syndrome, of like, Oh, but I mean, I’m just, I’m just doing this. Who, what? Who would even do? I deserve this, and I think y’all

Linda Doll: 55:51

deserve it, yes, and artists deserve to be considered as a professional, and they deserve to make good money. Sorry, but you need to accept that and tell yourself, yeah. And so that’s where the pricing comes in. And you need to price it. You need to make at least your framing, plus maybe double it, you know. Or, you know, you need to make as much as, as as your gallery’s making, you know, or, or, yeah, so you need to take yourself serious. It got to a point where this is another thing I like to advise artists with. And I know that organizations don’t like me to do this, but organizations will call you all the time and ask you to donate a painting for an auction, and they have no idea, really what they’re asking for. And so it might be a $1,200 payment, and they want it framed, you know, so you you’re talking $2,000 is what they’re really asking for, and they have no idea, and they’re going to auction it off for $200 and think they’re doing good. I’m serious. And so I used to say them, you know what, my inventory is low. How about I donate $100 to your organization instead? And they’re like, Oh, thank you. That’s wonderful. And if they said, Oh, but we really wanted to feature your painting, and we really wanted it as a draw, I’d say, Okay, I’ll give you a painting, because they were, they were going to be advertising me as well, not just sticking me in a back room and selling it for 200 so I wanted to know, and it’s only fair that if I give something, I get something in return, and advertising for an artist is good return, but not if it’s you’re not going to get it. So I would test them and say, What if I, what if I donate $100 I mean, the frame was more than $100 yeah, and I do. These were, these were very good organizations. They were organizations I believed in. I just they had no idea what they were asking for.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:08

Yeah, I have also run into people who work in whether they’re like, hosting workshops or artist residencies, and they make demands that, like, make absolutely no sense for an artist, and you can tell that they themselves are not an art themselves are not an artist, because usually the timeline is totally wrong. They’re like, Oh, we’re expecting this number of paintings in this time period. It’s like, that’s not going to happen. What size are we talking Do you want? Big Do you want? Because the only way I’m going to get that number done is if they’re all very small paintings, because that is just not feasible. So

Linda Doll: 58:43

when I went to Bulgaria no Albania, Dan No, I’m sorry, Pakistan, I was invited to the university in Pakistan to stay in the university and teach the female the female students at the university, but they wanted a painting in return, and then they would pick up all expenses. And I said, Fine, but I’m not going to do it while I’m there. There’s no way I can teach the class and do a painting that I want hanging in your university that I can be proud of. So I I actually ended up giving them three paintings because they really were fabulous, and they really took care of me. And so what I did was I took a lot of photography. I took a lot of pictures. A lot of people there, the president of the university, the teachers who were really good to me, and I did three paintings that included them, and sent it back six months after, and they knew they were coming, but I needed time, I, you know, I wanted it to be appropriate and hang in their university, and to have people look at it and go, Oh, that’s Dean so and so, that’s, you know, and so. Well, they were more than willing to wait. You know, I told them I was good for it, but that I was it wasn’t going to be something I painted there, and it wasn’t going to be something from California that was inappropriate in their the way they dress, the way they you know, a lot of my you know, we dress in short. So we dress inappropriate for Pakistan, so I wanted to do something that was very appropriate for them.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:29

Yeah, yeah. And that goes to show to the importance of communication as well with, like, any organization that an artist works with, you know, what are the expectations? What? And, you know, how can you compromise? And I think that was an excellent compromise, especially considering they patiently waited as well, and they were happy with the results. And that’s what matters. They

Linda Doll: 1:00:50

were thrilled. Yeah, they really were.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:52

I mean, they wanted, when they got three, that’s really great. But yeah, and then, besides all of these incredibly awesome pieces of advice. Is there one final piece of advice that you would like to give any listener who really wants to become a full time artist?

Linda Doll: 1:01:09

Be yourself. Be yourself. Figure out who you are. Figure out what’s important to you. Figure out what you love to do more important than what other people want from you. What do you enjoy? What is your strength? How can you always be ahead of everyone, instead of running to catch up? What can you do? What do you do that’s unique? Find a find a niche. Might be a small niche, but any niche is better than none. Find something that that you love and others love that you

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:47

do beautiful. Yes, I think that’s those are all excellent pieces of advice, but yeah, I

Linda Doll: 1:01:55

know we all have a strength. Every one of us have strengths and every one of us have strong personalities. There’s not an artist on this call who doesn’t have a strong voice when it’s something they care about. Use that voice in your painting or in your collage or in your photography or whatever it is.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:14

Yeah, yeah. It’s very true, and again, that I think it’s really hard work to allow yourself to do that right, to give yourself the permission and the validation, to say, Yeah, my voice does matter. My voice.

Linda Doll: 1:02:27

Trust your inner voice.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:29

Yes, yeah, perfect. Yes. And then if anyone wants to learn from you, or wants to see some of your work, do you have any upcoming shows or any upcoming events that you’d like to promote.

Linda Doll: 1:02:42

I usually put my work on my web page, which I said earlier, www dot Linda doll com. I will be doing a demonstration in Denver in July. I’ve kind of limited this year. I’m just starting to open my calendar up again, but I have a couple of demos. I also have some videos on procreate for the beginner artist, so that they can start to use procreate if they want. That’s all free on YouTube, and the link is in my web page, all the supplies I use. I have a supply list on my web page that lists all the products I use and and I do do a lot on Amazon, but it’s the link to Amazon to a lot of the products I use. I do post a lot on Facebook. Linda doll com and Instagram. Linda doll five, I think, no, I’m sorry, Facebook is Linda doll and Instagram is Linda doll five, and I’d love you to follow me. And I do post all different things. I try to keep it pretty art. Occasionally I put family, but mostly it stays art. And whether it’s a photograph I’m posting or the group out urban sketching, it’s it’s just me loving life, enjoying myself and sharing it on social media, and then I do post on my on my Facebook. I’ve been really bad this year about my newsletter, just because of issues, but my goal is to get back to start doing my newsletter again, so you can sign up for my newsletter. If you’re interested, email me. Linda doll@me.com if you have questions. I love to hear from artists. I love to mentor artists. I also have a mentoring program where you you don’t sign up for any specific time, you just sign up for one at a time. It’s about 45 minutes. You send me six to eight paintings, and we on Zoom, we go over them, and I don’t critique them as much as analyze them. I like to ask you questions about what was your intention? Where does your eye go first? So. It’s not me telling you how to change your painting, because I want the paintings to stay yours, and I want you to still be able to enter shows with them. I want you to feel like you made every decision in in the piece. So I’ll usually say, you know, either you need a dark in the top left, or you need a light in the bottom right, you know, squint down. Which one feels better to you? So I do have that program, and it’s pretty inexpensive. I think it’s $50 for a critique session with me. And I just love I have quite a few people all over the country who just, you know, every two or three months, sometimes it’s six months, email me and say, Okay, I need another critique or analyzing session and and I love I love mentoring artists. I just don’t want to do full teaching anymore. But at 84 I think I’m entitled to it.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:02

Yes, sure, you’re definitely entitled to a well deserved

Linda Doll: 1:06:06

but I’m Greek, totally computer literate. I think I do really well for my age. So

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:11

yeah, I mean, you even have Amazon links. That’s crazy. I don’t have Amazon links.

Linda Doll: 1:06:16

Yeah,

Unknown: 1:06:16

yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:17

Oh man, but it was such a wonderful treat to have you? Oh,

Linda Doll: 1:06:20

I love talking with you. Thank you, yeah, thank you for inviting me,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:25

of course, and thank you for being here. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple, podcast Spotify or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you. Bye.

We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

I Seem to Have Loved You in Numberless Forms

Please click the Like button (it’s a heart icon at the top and bottom) on this essay and we’ll send an army of leprechauns over to your house bearing pots of gold, paint supplies, and inspiration since it will help us increase our visibility and help promote the arts and support more artists in a world that desperately needs inspiration. Thank you.

“I seem to have loved you in numberless forms, numberless times, in life after life, in age after age forever.” — Rabindranath Tagore

When you are in love, you rise above time. Time becomes irrelevant and is revealed for what it is – an illusion. In love, we can access all times in an instant.

In the thing we love, past, present, and future converge – and we recognize the thing we love in numberless forms, numberless times, age after age.

As I listen to the pattering of rain outside my window, I am aware that I have heard this music before – not only as rain but also as many other things. It comes in various ways and forms.

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Its soothing lullaby is not bound to “this particular rain.” It washes over me in the cries of gulls overhead, in a long, meditative conversation with a friend, in the playful gusts of wind shaking my backyard.

When we are in love, we recognize our love under any guise. When we fall out of love, we fall under the curse of time. We are bound by time and dwell in time. We forget how to be timeless.

We perceive ourselves as prisoners of time. We begin to count minutes, days, lifetimes. We mistake the illusion for reality. Yet, time appears only when it is noticed. It’s a curse of falling out of love.

St. Augustine was once asked what time is, and he replied:

“When you don’t ask, I know; when you do, I don’t.”

When we fall out of love, we begin noticing time – and no longer know what it is. When we are in love, we don’t notice time and know exactly what it is.

What is it?

Everyone in love knows that time is a portal into Timelessness. It’s a doorway into eternity. According to William Blake, when you lovingly hold a grain of sand, you can “hold infinity in the palm of your hand and eternity in an hour.”

Time is an opportunity to rise above time. The function of true art is to give us the opportunity to hold infinity in the palm of our hand.

For example, when we read The Lord of the Rings, we do not think: This is about another time, another world, another age. We recognize our own time, our own world, our own age within it.

True art is a portal into timelessness, which is our true nature. We are timeless beings learning to live within the boundaries of time-space.

When we are in love, we become aware of our timelessness. We transcend time in all things – we return home.

That’s why Rumi said:

“Whatever you do, be in love.”

And Jesus:

“I have this against you, that you have forsaken your first love.” – Revelation 2:4

We can do all sorts of good things in the world and have no love. Lovelessness is a sterile state – regardless of how much “external fruit” it produces.

Whatever we do apart from love will create more time… and eventually more suffering.

No one can create lasting value in time. True art is created only in timelessness. Eternal art is born when the soul recognizes the thing it loves beneath numberless forms, numberless times, and numberless ages.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Tanner Steed, a Denver-based oil painter and instructor who built a full-time career through self-directed classical training, mentorships with leading figurative artists, and a practice rooted in painting his lived experiences with a focus on strong composition and poetic mystery. Tanner shares how he built his career by treating art like any other skill in the brain—showing up daily, doing master copies, and effectively creating his own “atelier” when formal schools weren’t an option. He urges artists to paint what they genuinely love instead of chasing trends or specific collectors, trusting that sincere, well-crafted work will find its audience. A big part of his advice is to start paintings over and over to strengthen composition and value design, build or initiate community (from family collectors to plein air groups), and maintain multiple income streams through galleries, direct sales, teaching, and educational content. He also emphasizes persistence—reaching out repeatedly to mentors, reinventing yourself socially when needed, and committing to be “the last one standing” in the long game of artistic mastery. Finally, Tanner closes by mentioning current and upcoming projects, including his 100 Flowers Sale, a group show at Saks Galleries, an Art Renewal Center piece showing at Sotheby’s, workshops in Rome through Rome Art Residencies, and a future painting workshop along the Danube River cruise.

Tanner’s Sale!:
tannersteedart.com/collections/228563

Tanner’s FASO site:
tannersteedart.com/

Tanner’s Social Media:
instagram.com/tannersteedart/

Tanner’s YouTube:
youtube.com/@tannersteedart

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Transcript:

Tanner Steed: 0:00

You just have to put in the work. I think this may be controversial, but I think it’s actually easy to make it as an artist, I think if you’re willing to put in the work, and you believe that it’s possible like truly believe then it’s going to be easy, hard work shows, and if you’re persistent, it pays off.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Tanner steed, a Denver based oil painter and instructor who built a full time career through self directed classical training, mentorships with leading figurative artists and a practice rooted in painting his lived experiences with a focus on strong composition and poetic mystery, Tanner shares how he built his career by treating art like any other skill in the brain, showing up daily, doing master copies and effectively creating his own Atelier when formal schools weren’t an option. He urges artists to paint what they genuinely love, instead of chasing trends or specific collectors, trusting that sincere, well crafted work will find its audience. A big part of his advice is to start paintings over and over, to strengthen composition and value design, build or initiate community from family collectors to planner groups and maintain multiple income streams through galleries, direct sales, teaching and educational content. He also emphasizes persistence, reaching out repeatedly to mentors, reinventing yourself socially when needed, and committing to be the last one standing in the long game of artistic mastery. Finally, Tanner closes by mentioning current and upcoming projects, including his 100 Flowers sale, a group show at Saks galleries, an art renewal centerpiece showing at Sotheby’s workshops in Rome, through Rome art residencies, and a future painting workshop along the Danube river cruise. Welcome Tanner to the FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Tanner Steed: 2:16

I’m fantastic. How are you

Laura Arango Baier: 2:18

I’m doing great. I’m really happy to have you because your work is so beautiful. It has such a particular interesting voice, where you just have this way of playing with the chroma of your pieces and the way that you compose. It’s just it’s so beautiful to see. So I’m excited to pick your brain today about that.

Tanner Steed: 2:38

Well, thank you very much. That’s very kind of you to say,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:41

of course, yeah, but before we do dive in about your gorgeous work and your technique and process, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Tanner Steed: 2:50

Sure, so I’m an oil painter. I live here in Denver, Colorado. I’ve been drawing and drawing on my life, painting for only seven years now. And, yeah, would you like me to kind of go into my background, like how I got started?

Laura Arango Baier: 3:13

Sure, yeah,

Tanner Steed: 3:14

cool. So, yeah, in hindsight, being an artist was absolutely my life path. I had grandparents and uncles who were in in the art world. My mom was an interior designer, and like esthetics were just I was surrounded by an appreciation for the esthetics. And I think having a mother as an interior designer, she was like, you know, constantly setting up the entire house, setting up like little still lives everywhere, and combining different colors. And, you know, it was like a daily thing. She’s still does it to this day. And I think that really shaped my esthetic preferences at a young age. And, yeah, some of my earliest memories when it comes to drawing and art, my grandparents would take me to, you know, Denver Art Museum or the Nature and Science Museum, and I’d always have like, a little clipboard and, you know, piece of paper, and I’d draw the animals or copy the paintings, and it was just, you know, a fascination of mine. And I, I was a pretty shy kid in like, elementary school, very, very quiet to myself, and I always found like a calming, just a peaceful state of mind when I was drawing, you know, I could be in my own head, and it was, it was a very, it’s still to this day, is like the best. Place to be. You know, I get kind of like the equivalent of a runner’s high after I’ve been drawing, you know, for quite some time. I’m sure you you know, that feeling, it’s wild. But yeah, I Yeah, drawing and painting has been in my life, my whole life. But it wasn’t until, actually, after college, that I decided to go into fine art as a profession. I went to school here in Denver at MSU Metropolitan State University, and I studied human development with an applied concentration in education. So my intention actually was going to be to work at an elementary school, probably like, teach fifth or sixth grade. I knew I wanted to work in, you know, maybe education, and I loved working with kids. I’ve been working with kids since high school, and while I was at school, I learned, you know, how to build a curriculum and then how the brain learns. I studied like the both the physiological and psychological development of humans over the course of a lifetime, and in that, I came to the realization that any skill, art, sports, anything is basically the same structure and same process in the brain. And at that point, I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I could apply what I did when I was skateboarding or teaching myself about mycology and apply that to something like art. And so I looked at, you know, the Florence Academy and the angel Academy, and I was like, wow, it would be spectacular to go there, but life circumstances were kind of restricting me to to go. And so I looked at their curriculums, and I’m like, wait a minute. I can buy plaster casts, I can buy the barg book, and I can do all of this work on my own. And there’s so much you know on the internet, youtube and different art websites, and I accumulated all of that information and just put in work every single day while I was teaching. And eventually I wanted to bring that work to a master artist. And at the time, I was obsessed with Richard Schmid and Daniel sprick. They were like my two, you know, masters that I really, really looked up to, and very, very different. You know, Richard Schmid, very loose painter, Dan sprick, very surreal, more on the tighter side, but still loose in his own way. And you know, Richard was still alive at the time he he moved to, I think he was on the east coast at this time. And I was like, oh, where’s, where does Daniel sprick live? I had the Juliet Aristides classical painting book, and I, I was just fascinated by his work. His work kind of terrified me, actually. I was like, you know, blown away with what was possible. But anyways, I found out he was in Denver, and I emailed him. I was like, hey, I really look up to you. I’d love to take you out for a cup of coffee and just get to know you. Maybe show you my sketchbook. And he didn’t respond. So I was like, okay, whatever. I’ll I’ll keep working in my sketchbook, keep painting, keep doing the work. I remember there was an opportunity to send questions through a podcast that he was doing. He was on the John Dalton podcast, and I sent him a question, he answered it, and he gave me suggestions for you know what to do next. So I did that work, and I emailed him again. He didn’t answer and so I I found out he was going to be at the plein air convention in Denver. And so it was like, Okay, I didn’t have a lot of money at that time, but I was like, I got to meet this guy. So this is, like, all borderline stalker. It’s hilarious. So I I bought tickets for the convention with the intention of meeting him, and then covid hit and canceled the convention. And I was like, Oh my gosh. I like, how is this gonna work? A few more months went by, I emailed him one last time, and to my surprise, he finally answered, and he said, All right, come to my studio. And you know, I. I was freaking out. I was so, so excited, so nervous. I had watched his documentary on YouTube. There’s like, a PBS documentary on on repeat. I, you know, was just obsessed with Him and in His work. So when I walked into his studio for the first time, I already knew the whole studio, and it was so surreal. I watched him paint for a bit. I showed him my sketchbooks, and maybe spent maybe an hour or two there, and he ate lunch, and I asked him questions, and then he said, as I was leaving, he’s like, we’ll be in touch. I was like, what I thought this was going to be just a single interaction, meeting your hero. And within a week, he said, Hey, why don’t you come to my figure sketching group? And I’m like, Oh, cool. So I showed up to that group with, you know, paper charcoal. And I was anticipating it being just Dan the model, and maybe, you know, one or two other people. But no, it was all of the Denver legendary artists. And you know, Kwong HO and Adrian Stein and Anna rose Bain and like all of these people, and I was so nervous, and I did the most terrible portrait of my life, but from that moment on, I had been returning to The Wednesday group. They’ve all become peers and friends, and now Dan is not only a mentor, but like a best friend now, and I, I am now working out of Kwang ho studio, which is the wall divides Dan’s studio from kwangs. So that’s where I am now. And yeah, the rest is history. Now we’re teaching workshops together, and, yeah, we went to Egypt. Fabulous. So that’s a brief history.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:10

Oh, but that’s awesome. It’s really great when it’s like, you know, you see someone like you who just refuses to give up, you know, just, I’m gonna do this, I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this. Stays consistent, and there’s a breakthrough. I mean, it’s like, of course, there’s a breakthrough, because you kept going, right? And I think that that’s a really big testament to that perseverance, you know, like through learning the craft and then meeting your hero and waiting so long to meet him, and then, you know, being dashed left and right, like, geez, the pandemic. Oh,

Tanner Steed: 12:47

yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:48

But it’s great that it worked out, and there you are still working alongside him, which is really cool. And I want to circle back to something you did say, because you mentioned that when you saw his work in Juliet Aristide’s book, you were terrified. I want you to expand on that a little bit.

Tanner Steed: 13:06

Yeah, so that’s been kind of a common theme in my life, where if I find something terrifying, or if I’m afraid of something, it’s a sign that I probably need to push myself in that direction. So when I saw Dan’s work, it was the most mysterious artwork that I had ever seen. I could not believe that someone was capable of turning paint into what he creates. Now, you know, I’ve seen him paint hundreds of pieces, and it it all makes sense, you know, you know, I don’t paint like Dan, you know, or like on his level, absolutely not. But, um, I at least now understand the mystery. But when I first saw it in the Juliet Aristides book, it was just, yeah, it was mind blowing. I could not back engineer what he was doing. It was just so, so mysterious. Whereas, you know Richard Schmid was, you could see the brushstrokes. I understood how brush strokes could turn into brushstrokes, but the illusion of Dan’s work just was on another level to me. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:39

wow, yeah, no, that’s, I really love that, you know, the when you’re faced with something that you fear, right, most people would be like, running the other direction, right? Instead of, you know, you reacted with curiosity, like, how the heck like, I want to do that right? And I think again, that really goes hand in hand with that perseverance. Where, you know, it’s very often that we’re faced with so many challenges, especially on the easel, and I think it is natural to just want to give up because it’s so hard. Painting is so so so difficult. But I think, of course, it always feels incredible when you’re able to push past that fear and go for it again and again, like a crazy, mad scientist who just can’t put the dog bone down and just keep going. Like, the only thing that might stop you is, Oh no, it’s three in the morning and I haven’t eaten all day, you know, yes,

Tanner Steed: 15:36

oh, tell me about it. My gosh, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:39

Like you’re 10 coffees in, and you’re like, why am I

Tanner Steed: 15:41

anxious? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:44

exactly. It’s like, I like, brush isn’t straight now, yeah, and that’s, that’s one of those things that, of course, over time it should be tempered, because, if not, you just end up burning yourself out, right? So it’s good to take it easy, but it is nice to have that impetus to just like, go, go, go, go, and not give up. Yeah, and speaking of, you know, having stuff on the easel, what would you say is a theme or question that keeps popping up in your work for you, like, what’s what’s on there?

Tanner Steed: 16:19

Well, you know, something that’s really important to me is painting my own life experience. You know, maybe when you start painting, you are more focused on how to reproduce what’s happening in front of you, until you understand the technique, and you know that that eventually will become very simple, very easy to just reproduce what’s happening in front of you. So I will paint from my own life experience, whether it be painting outdoors, I do a lot of traveling and paint on location as much as I possibly can. And now I don’t really try to reproduce what is happening in front of me. Rather, I will paint the thing, but then try to cast it into this other realm and make it just, you know, a little bit more interesting than it actually is. And it is already, you know, interesting. If I chose to paint something, it’s already got a fundamental quality of beauty, or whatever it is, psychological interest. And then I just, you know, kind of crank it up a notch, you know. So I guess I’m not sure what I would call that theme, but maybe just increasing the level of mystery in whatever the subject is that I’m painting, whether it be a single flower or like I’m looking behind the camera, I’m working on a painting of a caravan of camels walking in the desert, and there’s the cityscape of Cairo behind it. I can send you a picture of this later, but yeah, yeah, it’s really important to me to paint the things that I’ve that I’ve experienced, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:28

yeah, yeah. And that’s a great point, because oftentimes we especially in the beginning, when you’re like, especially starting out as an artist, and it is important too, is to you start by learning how to draw or paint the thing as it is, right? Because that’s the starting point. If you’re not accurate, it doesn’t matter how nice you render your drawings. Wrong, it’s gonna look bad no matter what, unless that’s the intention. But oftentimes it isn’t, you know. So having that base to work from, of course, is really important. But then now, like you, you reach that point of, okay, what is the essence of this object? What is this object trying to how does this object differentiate itself from others? Right? It’s kind of like how, when you learn to draw portraits, everyone at some point just looks exactly the same.

Tanner Steed: 19:20

Yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:21

everyone’s the same. But then when you’re trying to get that likeness, you realize, like, oh, you know, if I really push this feature a little bit, it makes them look more like them than they look, you know, kind of like, it’s really funny to see those competitions like Elvis impersonators, your Dolly Parton,

Tanner Steed: 19:38

and

Laura Arango Baier: 19:39

oftentimes the actual person wouldn’t even win because the impersonator has exaggerated their essence to such a perfect level that it’s like, yeah, that that’s totally them. It’s like, no, that’s horrible. There’s like, no, no, no, no. It’s this,

Tanner Steed: 19:54

right, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:55

right, exactly. So, yeah, um, I forgot what that’s called, um. But I, if I remember, I got to tell you, because it has an actual name to it that effect. But yeah, and having that life experience, I think, is also very important, like you said, like it’s, it’s good to imitate and learn, because that’s how we start. That’s how we learn language, that’s how we learn how to write and to walk, even. But yeah, just what something is telling you, right? What their story is through your eyes, through a unique lens that is entirely colored by your own life experiences and all of these incredible things. That’s why, you know, you can get two artists paint the same exact flower to look different, you know,

Tanner Steed: 20:37

right?

Laura Arango Baier: 20:38

Especially they allow themselves to explore more, more of that narrative or poetic side of the flower, instead of just the this is what it is. I’m in the Audubon Society, and I will paint this bird biologically, or, like how you mentioned with mycology. It’s like, Oh, I’m just going to sketch this little mushroom exactly as it is. Because we need to have a we need to be able to identify it.

Tanner Steed: 21:01

Yeah, exactly

Laura Arango Baier: 21:02

yes. But yeah, I think that’s, it’s, it’s important. And actually, speaking of, you know, skill and leveling up like that, starting from that baseline, what is something that you focused on that really helped your artistic

Tanner Steed: 21:19

skill? Let’s see. I mean, there’s a million ways I can answer this, but 111, thing that comes to mind is starting over and over and over and over again, because the start of a painting is the most important thing. What I mean more specifically, is composing, trying different compositions, different patterns of light and dark shapes. That is what is going to make or break a painting. It has to be interesting from the start. And you know, you it’s very important to be able to spend, you know, as much time as a painting needs, you know, hundreds of hours could go into something to make it look pristine. But if that composition isn’t interesting in the first unless you’re planning on doing some major compositional changes later. You know, it’s really gonna, it doesn’t matter how much you render it and make it look, you know, realistic. It’s just, yeah, it’s gotta, gotta be interesting from the start. So something that I’m doing right now that’s so so fun, and is kind of a win win with my collectors and people who subscribe to my newsletter. I’m so I just got married this past weekend to Olivia, and we’re going on honeymoon to Florence, actually, tomorrow. And to help fund that honeymoon, I’m doing kind of a crazy, crazy sale. I wouldn’t normally do this, but I’m painting 100 flowers, and the first one is $1 and the last one is $100 and, you know, one plus two plus three, it adds up, and it’s going to help pay for the honeymoon. But anyways, this is doing exactly what I’m recommending, where I’m starting a new painting every couple of hours, they’re all the same flower or the same vase. And I am just trying all of these wild, different compositional approaches, different color harmonies, different sizes of the flower, different just, different feelings. I’m trying to cast them each into their own fiction. So although it’s the same subject, they’re all, yeah, interesting, different starts. So that would be a good way to practice this. This concept is just doing 100 of the same subject and just watching your creativity flow, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:19

yeah. That’s a great tip. And I think that, like, even beyond being a beginner artist, I think, yeah, it I had it when I was at Angel Academy. Michael, John Angel used to say that all the time. I was like, you’re painting, if it doesn’t have that feeling at the beginning,

Tanner Steed: 24:38

yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:38

it’s probably not going to have it later. And it’s so true, like, that feeling is really the composition, right, the value scheme, the location of the objects. And it’s always like, that’s and that’s even before color, because color, I like to say, is a cherry on top. It’s like, okay, this is like the disaster we had at the end. And, oh. We’re emphasizing it too much without having the baseline working is it’s not gonna really work unless that’s what someone’s going for. Then, yeah, but yeah, I totally agree, yeah. Just I think that also really helps those instincts, the natural instincts of like, composition, to really help it like, to help your brain figure it out too. Because I think, you know, we all really aspire to paint like the old masters, or paint like really, really well, and have these incredible paintings like, I think of like, you know, Solomon, J Solomon. And when you really look at the composition like, it makes perfect sense, and it is built upon years and years of experience. So, yeah, I think that’s a really great exercise. I want to do that. I’m just gonna start doing that too. Why not

Tanner Steed: 25:50

attached to each individual one? You know? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:54

yeah, that’s great. It’s totally great. And then you became a full time artist recently, right in like, last three years? Right?

Tanner Steed: 26:07

Yeah, yeah, three, four years. I don’t know. I lose track. People ask, and I just say a random number. And I usually say like five or six, but I honestly don’t know.

Laura Arango Baier: 26:22

Well,

Tanner Steed: 26:22

yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe three, I don’t know, maybe, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 26:26

but you became full time. What was that transition like for you? Like, when was the moment where you thought, Oh my gosh? Like, first off, I can make a living from this, and, second of all, now I am making a living from this. What was that like for you?

Tanner Steed: 26:39

So it was, it was fantastic. I so I went to school for human development education. During that time, I this school I was working at actually asked me, like, hey, the the art teaching position opened up, if you want, you could apply. You probably have a good chance. So I was like, what? Okay, I’ll apply. And I got that job, and I taught there for three years, and that was amazing for my artistic development and and I loved doing it, love working with the kids, but what I got to do for three years is practice and teach the fundamentals over and over and over and over again. And the school I worked at was very flexible in the curriculum. So I I looked at Angel Academy and Florence Academy, and I was like, All right, guys, we are drawing and painting from life. We’re going to do bark plates in sixth grade, and I got to practice all of that with the kids, and it was amazing. So and during that time, covid hit, and it was not great for the kids, but it was fantastic for me, sorry to say so when we had to teach online, I was teaching out of my studio, just, you know, over zoom, and I had, you know, my demo going, and then as soon as class would end, I would work on my own work. And even while I was at the school, I would always have my easel right next to me, and every single break I had, I’d be working on it, and every day after school, I’d be working on my own work. And during that time, I accumulated a lot of many pieces, and I would put on my own mini solo show. I I had a couple collectors who were open to having the show at their their houses, and I would remove all of the other artwork on their walls and hang up all of my own stuff. And I collected an email list, and I would do this annual solo show at different collectors houses. And I gave them, I said, Okay, you have an option. Either you can pick one of the paintings and that’s your piece, or you can get 10% of the proceeds, so they were getting something out of it. And they almost always just picked a painting, and I would sell quite a few. And I did that year after year while I was teaching. And, you know, I had to choose, am I going to be, you know, an educator for the rest of my life, or do I take this seriously? And I knew from a very young age that I was not going to have a very normal, you know, nine to five job career path, so I made the. Jump, and I had already met Dan and Quang at that time, and I had a, you know, like a career jump off party, where everyone met up at my parents house, and we, yeah, I just fully committed. And because I didn’t really have many other income sources, it kind of forced me to say, Okay, well, now I have to sell paintings. I have to, you know, teach a little bit. And it’s just, it’s worked out, it’s fantastic, and it’s only grown from there, and now I feel very, very successful and happy. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:50

oh, that’s awesome. And you sound very fulfilled, of course, yes, yeah, that’s really cool. At that annual sale, that’s genius,

Tanner Steed: 31:01

yeah?

Laura Arango Baier: 31:02

Because, I mean, I don’t think a single collector would ever be like, No, I don’t like when one of your paintings, yeah,

Tanner Steed: 31:08

they’d

Laura Arango Baier: 31:08

be like, hell yeah, come over here, yeah. And that’s really great, yeah. And then that actually brings me to the next question, which is a perfect segue, which is now that you’ve, you know, you’ve had your career for a while, if you were, like, say, with your current knowledge, if you had to start from zero all over again,

Tanner Steed: 31:30

yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 31:30

what would you do

Tanner Steed: 31:33

in terms of, like,

Laura Arango Baier: 31:35

to get from to Become a

Tanner Steed: 31:36

Professional?

Laura Arango Baier: 31:37

Yeah?

Tanner Steed: 31:39

Okay, so I would say that you have to put in the hours you got it. You got to do good work before you can start, before you can start selling your work. So just work your butt off, practicing doing as many master copies as possible. I think that really accelerated my growth is trying to go to the art museums and do copies in the museums, or take photos, go back home, copy the painting, bring the my little panel to the painting in person, if they don’t allow you to paint in the museum and just say, Okay, that is the standard. Pick your favorite artist, make that your standard. And say, I need to be at least as competent as this. But you know, inevitably you’re going to realize that, holy crap, that that’s a pretty high level, and I have very high expectations for myself, and there is a balance of pushing yourself to that level to compare yourself with master artists, and then also being realizing that it’s going to Take some time right to get there. So, yeah, just you have to be, I think in order to succeed, you need to be committed to drawing and painting every single day or as much as you possibly can, because there’s no shortcuts. Absolutely not. And something that Dan has always told me is it’s not about the like short term gains, it’s the people who succeed are the last men standing. So just keep going and keep improving your craft. Okay. Now, as for like, first collectors, first people who are going to buy your work, there is nothing wrong with the first people being you know, family members, your brothers, your sister, your parents. That’s okay, your parents, friends, your parents, friends, friends. You know, when I was first doing these solo shows and quotations, they were at my first one was at my parents house, and then the next one was at a someone who came to the event, and it was they were a serious became a serious collector from that point on, and they’ve been buying work all along the way. So anyone and everyone you know wants to support you, just start there. There’s nothing wrong with that. And then eventually you will get gallery representation, if you choose to. Now with social media, you don’t have to. You can do it all on your own. I have chosen to do a little bit of both. I still will sell privately, but often I will also. So I’ll have shows at a couple of different galleries here in Colorado. And yeah, it’s just one one step at a time.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:11

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Tanner Steed: 38:51

Well, let’s see. I would say, don’t worry about that. I would say, paint what you love, and if you truly put in all of your effort and your passion into that project, the collectors will find you. I don’t think it is wise long term to try to paint for collectors or to find you know, yeah, just, just paint what you love. And the collectors will there’s, there is a collector for every single subject matter. So if you were like, I’m really into mycology, although I’ve never painted mushrooms, which is shocking, let’s say I loved painting mushrooms. Well, then I would go to the Colorado Mycological Society and show the people in that group. Look, I painted some mushrooms. You they’re going to be interested. You know, if it’s like landscapes. Or still lives flowers. There are so many people in this world, and there is room for every subject matter. There’s Yeah, I have no doubt,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:14

yeah. And now that you mentioned subject matter, would you say that you figured out what you really, really wanted to paint pretty quick, or was that also a bit of a process for you?

Tanner Steed: 40:26

Well, it’s funny, I am I love painting everything. So I paint figures, I do landscapes, I do still lives. And I really gained a lot of confidence with my ADHD when I met Kwong, because Kwong is the definition of ADHD. He He’s so chaotic. He paints every subject matter in all different styles, and he is extraordinarily successful. And if you paint it well, it’s, it’s going to sell. You know, it’s, if you paint it with your passion, it’s going to sell. So I, I A typical day in the studio is I am literally surrounded by like five different pieces, and I’m simultaneously working on all of them, and for some that may drive them mad. For me, it is amazing, because while I’m working on one, I’ll sit down and take a break and look at another and say, oh my gosh, I know how to solve that now and then I’ll go over and and work it out, and one will influence the next. And even though they’re all possibly different subject matters, they will influence each other. And the consistency is the way that I’m painting all of them, so they will all look like my work, but they’ll be totally different things.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s really funny, because you’re the second artist I’ve heard who says they have like, five paintings going at the same time.

Tanner Steed: 42:08

Really, yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:10

yeah. And that because they’re working on one, it solves another one,

Tanner Steed: 42:15

amazing,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:15

yeah. And I’m like, Huh? Because I’m also at a stage for like, I feel like one painting isn’t enough, like, because it’s, I love oil paint, but it’s such a slow dryer, and I hate acrylics. I will never, I’ll probably never really be tempted to use acrylic unless you know, who knows the future is a strange thing. Who knows, but having, like, multiple pieces I use liquid, yeah. But even then, like, I feel like, No, I like, because there’s so like, to get certain effects, you need a lot of layering, and you need a lot

Tanner Steed: 42:47

of

Laura Arango Baier: 42:48

time in between those layers. Sometimes it’s like, oh, I need this to be dry, like, now, because I am so ready for the next part and to just keep going. But I feel like it always like, stops the process. So I think having, yeah, multiple pieces is probably the way to go. I also have ADHD, so that’s what I’m like, I relate, or more, yes,

Tanner Steed: 43:10

and paint it. Sometimes I’ll paint two of the exact same scene and compose it slightly differently. So you can, you know, paint a glaze on one, learn from that experience, and apply it to the next one. And then while this one’s drying, you can solve this one, and then while this one’s drying, you can move on to the next step. So I just did that with six of the same still lives. That’s the the last one up there. I’m not sure if you can see

Laura Arango Baier: 43:41

that,

Tanner Steed: 43:42

but, um, yeah, it’s, it’s so fun to painting is just so fun. I it

Laura Arango Baier: 43:49

is, it is, it’s, it’s a fun puzzle. It’s like,

Tanner Steed: 43:53

it

Laura Arango Baier: 43:53

is, you could just work on it forever. You really could. Which, actually, that’s such a great question Now that it’s come up. Which is, how do you know when a painting is finished,

Tanner Steed: 44:03

when it’s sold? None of, none of my paintings are varnished until they’re sold. I, I, I always believe that there could be a next step, but once it’s sold and and in someone’s home and they think it’s worthy of being purchased, then, then I’m done, and that’s good, but yeah, I also that this might be a good marketing tip is to varnish after it’s Sold if they’re local, because it allows you to contact them six months to a year after the painting has been finished, and that allows you to reconnect with the the client, check in with them, make that you know, human connection and. To share with them all of the new life experience that you’ve had, and then that often leads to the next sale.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:08

Yeah, that’s pretty genius. Um, yeah. I don’t know what else to say about that, because I’m like, taking notes, like, Haha. But yeah. And then I guess the other really interesting thing about being an artist is also like galleries, right? Not just like collectors. Do you, do you prefer to work with galleries? Or do you, like, prefer to work directly with collectors? Or do you do you do, like, a little bit of both? How does that work

Tanner Steed: 45:42

for you? I do both. So I am represented at the Broadmoor galleries in Colorado Springs, and they’ve been absolutely wonderful to me. And I go there a few times a year for, you know, different painting events where maybe I’ll I often. I love painting Olivia. Olivia is the definition of my muse. She’ll pose for me anywhere we go, whether we’re traveling or if we’re at an event, like at the Broadmoor. And I every time I go there, it’s funny, okay, I don’t know if you’ve found this, but it’s much easier to make a sale with someone if you are actually present, because that person is able to, you know, connect with you as the individual. They’re excited to hear your story one on one, and they feel that personal connection that is huge for developing a client base. And so, yeah, every time I go to the Broadmoor, I end up selling something. Every time I go to any, any painting event, I’ll sell something because of that, that connection. So I love working with galleries. And I also will work, I’ll have, like, many studio sales where, you know, people might come here and and buy pieces or just buy it off my website. Yeah, I think you need to have multiple legs on the table and multiple income streams. So we are a small business, right? And we have to do a lot of of work. So I will I sell in instructional videos. I’m about to come out with one on my website with these rug paintings. I’ve got a pretty a great system down, and that’ll be coming out soon on my website. But, um, yeah, I sell paintings off my website. I sell through galleries, instructional videos, and I teach a class out of my studio here on Sundays. And then I also do, like, international work workshops, and I love kind of being all over the place, and it’s been beneficial. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:14

yeah, no, that’s, that’s, that’s the other really interesting thing about, you know, being an artist is that there isn’t one single way to be an artist, right? There are so many different ways that someone can use all of their strengths in all of these specific little corners to really have all those legs under the table, like you said. So I find that it’s, yeah, you know, it’s really like, what works for you works for you. And sure, maybe some people listening might be like, Oh, I could never. And that’s totally fine too, because it’s really like, it’s whatever works. But I totally agree, like, having, having, like, different things going on, and you feel like you could still do them well, right? You’re not just, like, jumping around and like, leaving things, like, half done and like, it’s like, right now, it’s more like, No, I’m doing all these things because I genuinely care about them, and I’m getting them done well, and that’s what matters, right? Yeah. And then I also wanted to ask you, because you, you have a little bit of, like, the the more what I would say, like, the non Atelier starting point right? Since you started out without that, which is really interesting to me, because you still were able to find that network anyway. Because one of the, obviously, one of the beneficial things about going to one of those schools is you’re not just paying for the school and the education and the staff. You’re also paying a little bit for the network and connections you get from those places.

Tanner Steed: 49:37

Certainly, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 49:37

yeah. What was it like for you to build that connection and those networking groups outside of these schools.

Tanner Steed: 49:46

Well, I think I just got really, really lucky with, you know, discovering that Dan was here in Denver. I. But he the only reason why he responded to the email was he said, Oh my gosh, this guy is persistent. He said, Tanner was persistent. And I think if you were not going to an art school or an atelier, you need to do research and see if you’re unable or not willing to move out of your local area. You need to find out what artists that are making it and that you respect, not just, you know, using people or whatever in your local area, but if you genuinely respect and appreciate what they’re doing. Find out who is within an hour of you. It’s very likely that there is someone, you know, being an artist, we tend to be more on the introverted side, and we, you know, stay in our studios and don’t really reach out and we see social media. But I think you’d be surprised with how many people are actually around you who are in the exact same situation as you. So if, if it isn’t a local legend nearby or whatever, maybe make a plein air painting group, try to create community yourself by posting on social media and say, Hey, I’m meeting up in Denver or at the Platte River or going to red rocks or whatever, wherever your local area is. And just say I’m going to go paint there. If anyone’s like to join. Come hang out and I I’ve I’m lucky in that I was born with a temperament to make friends. Everywhere I go, I tend to to find it pretty easy to engage with people. So I understand that for people who are more introverted, that that that can be a little bit more difficult. But for those people, if anyone’s listening and is like that when I if you remember earlier in the station, I said that when I was in elementary school, I was very, very quiet and very introverted. Well, the transition from elementary to middle school, I realized that because no one knew me in middle school, I could reinvent myself. I said, You know what? I am tired of being the quiet kid in the back of the room that doesn’t really talk to anyone. I want to make friends and be a new person. So consider that you have many opportunities to do that in in life if you’re aware of it, and you could choose that right now and post on social media or whatever and just say hey, if anyone wants to meet up and make a friend, you can do that. There are absolutely people local or even online. There are many online communities that you can look into. I teach online too, and I know a lot of other artists who also do that, and you can meet up digitally with people too. But I really lucked out with the Wednesday group here. There are so many fabulous people in Denver, and they’re all so I found that the best artists are usually very, very humble and very open to sharing their their knowledge, because you can explain how to draw and paint as much as you want, you know the but you have to put in the hard work in order to get there. So most of the best artists are not hiding anything. They’re like, Sure, I’ll explain this. And yeah, you have, you have to put in the work.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:11

Definitely, yeah, yeah. And that’s it is true. You got to come out of your shell, and you got to reach out to people. Because I think oftentimes, also, especially in the beginning, we hope and wish that you know some opportunities just gonna land on our lap, like, that’s that’s not gonna happen unless you know you’re lucky enough to be like, you know the child of very wealthy parents who have a great network connections, and they already have friends, and they could just laugh about how wonderful your art is. But if you’re like most people who really work hard for it, no you you have to put that word out for yourself. You have to find that community and build it too. I think other people. Are also hoping they’ll become part of the community, instead of realizing you can just start one, right?

Tanner Steed: 55:05

Absolutely,

Laura Arango Baier: 55:06

yeah, yeah, totally. And I know that you’ve already given, like, a ton of really awesome advice, but do you have any final advice for someone to become a full time artist?

Tanner Steed: 55:20

Well, I already said you just have to put in the work. Let’s see. Well, I I think this may be controversial, but I think it’s actually easy to make it. As an artist, I think if you’re willing to put in the work and you believe that it’s possible like truly believe, then it’s going to be easy. You just put one foot in front of the other and talk with all of the people you you look up to reach out to them on Instagram, whatever you’re going to be able it hard work shows, and if you’re persistent, it pays off. And what’s what’s difficult is not making it and selling your art. That’s that’s a side thing. What is truly difficult is comparing yourselves to the Masters in the museum. That is the goal. For that is my goal. And it’s a wild, extraordinary goal, to be respected, not just by your peers, but to be respected by those masters in art history. And I’m going to work for the rest of my life trying to achieve that. And, you know, it’s, it may take 50 years before I paint something that’s worth, you know, sitting next to a Rembrandt or Vermeer or whatever, whoever. But I’m just, I’m gonna give it everything I’ve got and, and I hope you do too, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 57:29

yes. I mean, it’s, it’s definitely very contagious motivation. So yeah, and actually, what you mentioned, it reminds me of a quote that I read recently, which I really loved, which is that real freedom is actually mastery over the self, because it’s there’s no way around it, right? Like if you’re tied down by your own bad habits or your own limiting beliefs, like you’re not going to be free to pursue these higher goals, right? So Self Mastery, which is everything that you’ve been describing, right? Like, being consistent, showing up anyway, putting in the hours, like, that’s all self mastery. And that makes perfect sense, too, because you did study like, how to learn, learning, how to learn like. So it’s baseline, the most important way to figure out how to even do the thing and then go from there. So, yeah, awesome, awesome. And then do you have any upcoming shows or any fun stuff that you would like to promote?

Tanner Steed: 58:35

Sure, let’s see, by the time this podcast comes out, tomorrow night will be over. No tonight. Oh my gosh. I have a show tonight. I have a show tonight at Saks galleries in Cherry Creek. It’s a group show with all the people in the Wednesday night figure drawing group that I was talking about. It’s called in good company. It’s going to be fantastic. I have a piece going to the art renewal center Sotheby’s exhibition I recently, let’s see last year, Dan sprick and I on the way to teach in Rome, we stopped by Egypt and got to paint there for nine days, and I’ve painted a whole series based on that extraordinary experience. And one of those pieces is the Sphinx painting. You can actually see behind me, that little sphinx up there that that’s the one I did on location. And from that, I did a larger piece, just 18 by 24 that’s going to be going to Sotheby’s at the yeah art renewal center show that’ll be in July. And then, let’s see. I’ve got a couple upcoming workshops. I’m teaching in Rome through Rome art residencies and. And that’s in just three weeks. So I’ll probably be doing that again next year, and next year, April of 2027 I’ll be teaching a workshop on the Danube River. We’re doing a riverboat cruise where we’re going to paint, all along the way, in different cities. The boat will move overnight. We’ll park and then go paint on location and explore the city. It’ll be wonderful. We’ll do that for, I think, eight nights, and I think that’s it. I also teach here out of my studio. And, yeah, check my website for other things. I probably forgot something, but my website is Tanner steed art.com and Instagram is Tanner steed, art, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:07

perfect, awesome. And I hope, I sincerely hope, our listeners, go check out your work and go see it in person. As always, seeing art in person is a treat. It is amazing.

Tanner Steed: 1:01:18

Oh, it’s so much better than Instagram. My gosh, it just does not translate, does it?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:22

Yeah, there’s no way. So, yeah, thank you so much Tanner for giving us some of your precious time. You’ve been extremely busy. You had your wedding. You were leaving tomorrow. You have your show tonight. So thank you so much.

Tanner Steed: 1:01:35

Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:38

of course. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

Creatively,

Clint Watson
FASOFounder & Creativity Fanatic

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Transcript:

Olya Konell 00:00

Welcome everybody to the Faso show. This is a video editorial series that we have running on our newsletter, which is hosted on Substack, The FASO Way. This is open to all artists, so if you enjoyed today’s session, share it with your friends, so they can join next time as well. Today, we have a very special guest, and I also have Angela Augusta with me. Our very special guest is Deborah Keirce. She is one of our contributing writers on the FASO Show. You’ve probably read a bunch of her articles; they’re very popular, even though she says she doesn’t feel like they are, but they really are. She’s an amazing writer, artist, speaker, just, you know, somebody who’s lived the artist life for a very long time, and we wanted to bring her on to do a talk, and I’m going to let her introduce her talk here in just a moment, but one last point I’d like to make before I hand the reins over. Is that this series is also brought to you by FASO.com. FASO is a website service for artists, so you can create your own website from start to finish, and it’s very plug and play for the artist that wants to spend a little bit more time painting and less time updating, so everything is designed for the artist. If you’d like to learn more, we’re going to share some links. If you’d like to start a free trial, just to look around without a credit card, you can just go in there and do that. And then if you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask us or reach out. So without further ado, I’m going to go ahead and bring on Deborah. For everybody, say hello, and go ahead and tell us a little bit about you, and jump right in.

Debra Keirce 01:47

Thank you so much. Well, first, I’m just so honored to be here, and I was saying earlier, part of the FASO team, from day one, I’ve just loved the people that work at FASO. So I’m so honored to be here today to talk, and like, no pressure, right? Oh, yeah. You know, you just called me amazing, and now I have to live up to that, or not. Today’s topic is thoughts that are rarely said out loud. So, as she’s saying all those great things about me, I’m thinking of all the artists I know who are greater than I am on the on the continuum here of our art journey. So we are all somewhere on this journey, and I’m hoping that today the things that I say will resonate with wherever you are. So, without any further ado, this is going to be a frank discussion. I’m going to ruffle some feathers, I’m going to make some people bristle, probably about some things, but realizes coming from a place that’s my experience, my sharing, so whatever you’ve got to say, please don’t be shy, just hit us up with it. So, a segue into this, I have a biochemical engineering degree, so in 1983 the last century before they discovered the rest of the periodic table, I got a bachelor in science in engineering from the University of Michigan, chemical engineering bio option is what they called it. So here I am. No art degree. What do they call me? They call me a self-taught artist. I did not teach myself anything. I learned from people, lots and lots of people, right? So, and I’m learning from these, you guys, right now learning from these guys. So, while I’ve studied a lot, and I just finished the Ani Art curriculum, in fact, I’ve got some of my paintings back here that were my finals and practices during that curriculum, done by Anthony Whychulis, four year curriculum, I highly recommend it. Any art academies, I have no university art degree, so who am I to talk to you guys about art, right? And yet I feel like I’m very well educated, like I’m classically trained, like I’m not self-taught. For over 16 years, I’ve been doing this art thing professionally. Right, first 10 years of my career I didn’t really make any money at all. In fact, I worked as a crossing guard and as a dog walker, just to make sure that the money I was spending on supplies, I, you know, wasn’t taken from our family coffers. And then I made money, but oh my gosh, I don’t see a way to make as much money as I was making as a design engineer at Eli Lilly and Company. So, you know, no six figures are happening here. So, what am I going to do? They’re not happening soon anyway. And then I got to where I was making a decent amount of money, but now, gasp, I feel like I’m in a place where I want to do optimization of the things that are fun for me, that I really enjoy, and I don’t really want to optimize the money part anymore, you know? I mean, I feel like I can see ways that I could be very much more profitable than I am, and I’m not pursuing them. So each of these three different parts of my art career, I feel like I’ve not expected them to come about the way that they did, and probably you’re in one, or you’ve experienced one or more of them as well, and these are the things I think we never talk about, is there’s lots of different ways to do an art career, lots of things to prioritize, so my emphasis right now is having fun and having new experiences like this, so that’s where I’m at. Any, I don’t know, do you want me to stop at any like breaking points and say any questions? Anybody got any? I offend anyone at this point.

Olya Konell 05:37

No, I actually, I, I love, I love the message, and I want to let the audience know we will be having a whole Q and A session covering any and all of your questions, whether it be covering the talk or anything else. I forgot to mention that. So, as you think of your questions, drop them in the chat or put them in the Q and A box, because I’m gonna, we’re gonna feed them, we’re gonna pull them up, we’re all gonna discuss them, we’re all going to have a conversation about them together. So, do not hesitate to drop them in the chat, but go ahead, Deborah. Floor is all

Debra Keirce 06:08

okay. All right, then. Well, let me then start with the biggest thing that I’ve learned, but never shared, and this is like the things we don’t say in public, taking advice from people like me, or like anyone that you interact with, and you pay money to, in order to learn about marketing and sales, and how you should do your art stuff and your art career anymore. I research them, and personally, if they’re not happy people, I run away from them. If they’re teaching me how to sell more stuff, but they don’t have a solid sales record for selling that same stuff themselves, like if I’m there, they’re only, you know, if they’ve never sold art, but they’re telling me how to sell art, I run away. If they’re pontificating on marketing expertise and I don’t see any evidence that their own marketing has worked well for them, I run away. But here’s the thing that I wanted to share, is you can’t ever in this art world. I don’t think share who you run away from, like it’s.. I’ve learned, and it’s hard for someone who’s unfiltered, like me. Like, I had to go through and make sure that there are no swear words or trash talking in what I do every time I write something, right? So, for me, for someone like me who’s unfiltered, it’s hard to do this or understand why this is important sometimes, but you gotta be careful because we’re working in a very emotionally charged, passionate group of people. This art community is awesome, but they’re also very sensitive, and so, and they, when I say they include me, right? So be careful, because it’s going to bite you in the butt if you say who you run away for, and this includes, like, if someone comes to you with, you know, like a brush manufacturer, for instance, this happened to me, and they ask you for your opinion, and you, you think they want an honest opinion on how to improve their product, they don’t, like, just coach it and say, you know, oh, you know, I’m so hard on my brushes, and I always wear down the tips and everything, and instead of saying yours wore down just as fast as all the others, you know, say more tactful if you can, or, you know, like critiques, I always tell people I can’t tell you whether your art is good or bad, because I’m not in your head, I don’t know where you were going with this. What I can tell you is, if you put it on my easel, these are the things I would do to it. So, coach what you say and what you do, but be careful in the art world never to never to be in that position where you say something bad and it’s going to come back and bite you, because sometimes they’ll come back and I’ll hear stories about things that I said or did that, if I mean, I have no recall if I did, but I’m like, where’d that come from? You know, sometimes you’ll get it even when you’re not even asking for it, but be careful, all right. So now I’m going to be talking about all the bad stuff, right? So four biggest things that I always talk about, and some things I don’t say about them, that’s what I have next on my list here, and it’s all about the triangle. We all have limited resources. We have this triangle of cost, time, and quality, or cost, time, and skill management in the art world, is how I think of it. How are we going to make it so that this is in balance? Because if you optimize one point of that triangle just by the nature of that balance you’re going to have to sacrifice something in one or both of the other points, so I talk a lot about how do we do that and how do we evaluate things like time usage, like for me I have to keep my time allocated to work practices at a very sustainable level, and I have to balance my commitments, otherwise I’m going to wind up in a burnout situation, which I’ve never had, like these people who say they lost their creative spark. I wake up every day going, I get to come down here and do this, so I want to keep that going, and in order to do that, there have been times in my life when I don’t pursue my art and. And I personally could not raise my three kids, work a 60 hour week running project teams as a design engineer at Eli Lilly and Company, and grow my art skills all at the same time, but there are people who come to me in mentoring situations, or however they find me, and they’ll ask me, you know, why is the universe not allowing me to do it? I can’t make money, I can’t, you know, embark on my art career, and you know, maintain my relationships with family and friends. And my answer is, I couldn’t do it all at once either. And so there are whole years where all I did was just basically hobbyist art, where I was doing a commission here, there, you know, average probably over the years, one or two a month, and I mean, in the beginning, from the time I was 16 years old, I’ve been doing this. In the beginning, they were $25 commissions, so this wasn’t like a money making, even back then, venture for me. But you know, I always did something in the art world, and I honestly, this is where I start to ruffle feathers. I honestly do not have sympathy for people who complain that they can’t all do it all at once, because I don’t think that life offered me this luxury either, and I didn’t pursue my art career in earnest until 2010 when I was financially stable. My kids were all teenagers, and I could devote myself 24/7 to developing my art skills, and I chose 2010 because that’s when I got representation, so I started full time with everything, and just at that point, excuse me, said that I was going to be a full-time artist, but I sacrificed coming to the party early in 1979 when I graduated high school. I had all kinds of things going on, I even had a scholarship to an art school, blah blah blah, I was all set to go into the art world, then, and I made a change, a decision, and I feel like it was a sacrifice to go and do the engineering thing and make money first before I went into the art stuff, and I feel like it oftentimes gets downplayed that people that made decisions like this, like I know a lot of artists who are engineers or architects or whatever, and came to the party late, and you know it’s not looked upon as much of a sacrifice as people who were in poverty first and then scraped their way into the art world, but I don’t dismiss people who come to things later in life or to the art world later in life, because I feel like it was in fact sometimes I feel like I worked harder because I had to create first a very successful engineering degree or career, and then, you know, get into the art world and make that happen too. So, when people come to me complaining that they’ve been in the art business for two whole years and they’ve taken, you know, five different workshops from all different people that are all amazing, and they’re working so hard, and they’ve, you know, don’t have enough money to live on. I can’t relate to that, and I feel like it’s a hard business, and it quickly weeds those people out. So that’s something that I don’t say, but I feel very strongly oftentimes in so many situations where I get told things like, well, you’ve got a husband, so this wasn’t so hard for you, or, you know you’re older, so you’re wiser, so you know you know what you’re like. No, everybody, I think is somewhere on the journey, and we’ve all had our own struggles, and we’ve all had to work hard, and we need to just like realize that for everybody. So now, did half the people leave?

Angela Agosto 13:16

No.

Debra Keirce 13:17

Okay, then we’ll move on to number two, focusing on maximizing enjoyment, and for me this is so important for sustainability, because in order for me to be able to do this day after day after day after day, and I’m like crazy, um, OCD, sort of probably, even though it’s never been diagnosed, committed to this, I, I work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, I don’t know what day it is, most of the time doing my art thing, because I love it, and it’s what I’m passionate about. But in order for that to happen, I feel like I need to focus on, you know, greater fulfillment and decide what activities I want to do that bring me happiness anymore. I mean, some income streams are more consistent and more lucrative than others, but I’m maximizing the happiness in them. And what do I mean by that. Well, from my observation, the most certain and lucrative ways to make money as an artist are going to be your teaching and commissions, and for me, teaching, you know, you make more money with online workshops, you just do, and I praise the people who that works for, I personally don’t enjoy them. I don’t like having, do, and I’ve, I’ve tested, piloted this several times, but I don’t like people watching what I’m doing here on the screen. For one thing, I use my hands a lot, don’t I? But I don’t like them watching what I’m doing, and then I, in all honesty, can’t see, maybe it’s my old eyeballs or whatever, but I can’t see very well what they’re doing, and so I can’t customize, you know, what my advice, or what I want, would like them to try to do on their canvas, you know, from where I am on the other side of the screen, so I much prefer the in-person workshops where I can do that. But the most profitable way to do in-person workshops, and I did this for gosh, several years, I don’t know how many, five, six years, or something like that, where I had people coming into my home, and so I had weekly mentees, people that I would mentor here, I had my own workshops here, and then I hosted workshops for other artists here, many of whom are sponsored by FASO, it was wonderful. I got to know these people very well, got to know the students and everything, and people came in, and it was great until it wasn’t. I got to a place where I started calling them home invasions instead of workshops, and I’m like, let’s get ready for the next home invasion, and I’m thinking that can’t be good, and what it is when people come four or five, six times to your home. It’s wonderful, because you know, you get more and more friendly, but then when you go downstairs and your husband’s like, “Where’s the half and half? or you’re realizing that your art supplies are disappearing faster than usual, that kind of thing. It’s like, you want to, you want to be friendly, but for me, it kind of, it tests your boundaries, you know. And then Covid hit, and when Covid hit, I was like, we’re such a litigious society. I didn’t want the liability anymore, so I just stopped doing it. So now I teach at museums around the country several times each year, and it’s much less profitable. I’m paying for my own flights and stuff, and rental cars and things, and they take a cut. But I thoroughly enjoy those experiences, and I love going to new cities, and it’s fun to see my students year after year citing the things they’ve done that, you know, in between our sessions that have improved. So, for me, that works, even though I’m not maximizing the profit part of it. And another one is commissions. I’ve done commissions, like I said, you know, ever since I was a teenager, and I’ve explored along the way all different ways to optimize that part of the business, and I found that the most successful commission-based art careers are focused on one subject, and I did this for a while. I did, for a while, I did pet portraits, and for a while, I did portraits, for a while, I did post-humans, you know, working with funeral homes, portraits of loved ones, for a while, I did, you know, the wedding portraits, new houses with realtors, etc. and the thing is, is I didn’t - I wasn’t happy committing to just one subject and one style, and so for me, I didn’t want to do that. So now I do a few word of mouth source commissions, like eight to 12 each year. Usually, I never post them unless people ask me to, and I’m happy with that. I’m trying to build that up a little bit, so I’m doing a few things to, you know, make that a bigger part of my business, because it does make me so happy, because why I feel like I’m connecting with people on a more intimate level. There’s one that I just finished with a person who lost a loved one who passed, and so I’m actually part of their grieving process, or my painting is, and another person who was having a celebration, and I get to my painting is now part of that celebration, and so these are the ways that I kind of get my dopamine hips, hits is when my art goes out there and writes its own stories, and so nothing to do with maximizing profit in either of these, even though I know what I would need to do in order to make that happen, so that’s my number two, number three, embracing your legacy, and this is something that you know, maybe I’m not the only one, but I, until like five years ago, I didn’t even care about a legacy, I didn’t even think about a legacy, I didn’t even know I needed one or had one, or whatever, and I couldn’t have planned it, but if I died right in this moment, like just keeled over, you guys, I’ll be calling 911 and you know where I live, so nobody would come, and you listen to me die. What are they going to talk about? Well, they’re going to talk about the US, and you can ask AI if you don’t believe me, they’re going to talk about the US Coast Guard art program. I have 17 works right now in the government collection, and I’m the winner of the best in show George Gray Award for 2022 So, my body would be here, and they’d see the big plaque over there saying so, so that that would be my legacy. Also, the Boston Langham Hotel, they have eight of my 40 inch portraits in their fine dining room that they wanted them done in John Singleton Copley style compositions of Federal Reserve Bank presidents who worked in the building before it was a hotel, and so I’ve done narrative pieces on each of portraits on each of them, and then also I’ve got three original miniature paintings in their bar area. Both of these are in my wheelhouse. I’m so excited about them because the dining staff, they’ll talk to when people ask, you know, what’s with what’s with this dude, you know, that I’m meeting next to here, and they’ll, they’ll, they know the stories, and so my art is being talked about in this five-star luxury hotel, like, who knew, and both of these were not planned, they were surprise opportunities that the door opened and I walked through it, and it happened, but I feel like with the legacy now I’m thinking I lucked out because I got a good 1am. I okay with it? Like, I have to go back and think, okay, what am I going to do to not mess it up now in the future, right? Which is totally possible, but right now I’m focused on a Trump lawyer series of oil paint. And charcoal drawings, and I’m working to create only what I consider art award-worthy art pieces, and I mean, you might look at them and not think they’re worth any award, or whatever, but it doesn’t matter, it’s in my brain, they’re award-worthy, they’re the best that I can produce, and you know, for me, they’re themes of nostalgia and happy memories, like I no longer care if I’m perceived as corny or old-fashioned, like if I am, I am, that’s who I am, and I don’t feel the need to be trendy, like I’m not painting the banana with duct tape, I never did one of those, but you know, and I don’t want to be remembered, I really want to avoid the rabbit hole of being remembered for any of my political affiliations or opinions or anything that like that, especially living so close to DC, don’t want anything to do with that. So, for me, I want people to remember me, and to think, you know, all my interactions with Deborah. I walked away feeling so enriched, like that would make me happy. If they say, you know, she was a really skilled artist, and her work makes me smile when I see it. I won’t go back and haunt those people, I want my tombstone. If anyone makes a tombstone for me, I want it to read, ‘You’re welcome. Right, so this is this is what I’m going for. And it’s funny to me, because at the start of my career, I wasn’t even thinking about legacy, but now I am. So, but I got.. again, I’m not going to.. that’s not something I’m going to talk about in public, although I just did number four was I, you know, establishing non-negotiable practices. So, for me, these are the essential routines that you do, no matter where you are in your art journey. So, they’re like the overarching things, and mine are going to be different than yours, but for me it’s the skill development, you know, like I said, I just finished one curriculum, and I, you know, if I ever am in a place where I don’t feel like the next painting that I’m doing is going to be better than the one that just came off my easel, then just take my brushes away, because that’s what I like to do, so skill development, and then networking, including volunteerism, group organization, peer engagement, both online and in person, like there’s so many ways you can network, and I find I’m always thinking about it. And just a quick little side story, my husband is a comic nerd, comic book nerd, him and his friends, so he went with a friend a couple weeks ago, and they went down to Texas, flew Texas, and then they drove all the way up through all the states, all the way up to Maine, and then back down to Virginia, where we are. And when he got home, we got married in 84 however many years that is, you figured out. But I know this guy pretty well. So when we got home, I’m looking at him like, whoo, this is like, I want a pony kind of a moment, you know, so I just sort of casually mentioned, I’m like, oh, you have such stamina, you did all that driving, that must have been her off, yeah, you know, it’s too bad I don’t have that kind of stamina, because I’d really like to go to the American Artist Professional League opening, the Vision show up at the Carriage Barn Factory in Connecticut, but it’s six hours away, and four hours is my limit, and so, of course, he’s like, so he actually drove me up there the six hours, and then I went and did the opening, and he and networked with everybody, and you know, got to meet all these people who I think are amazing, who I’ve been interacting with online for years, and now I got to meet them in person, and got to see the show, and just had a great time, and he slept in the car, and then he didn’t even want to get a hotel. We just, he drove me right back, you know, here six hours that same day. So I’m like, yes, and now not everybody has a partner that can do that for them. I get it, but like any opportunity you see, if you can get that pony, go ahead, and you know, it could happen, because that, to me, that’s what networking is about, is just, you know, things that you like, yeah, that, that could happen, you know, in some out of the box kind of a way, and that’s the way I’ve been approaching it. Here’s the thing, though, that nobody talks about, like, recognize that you’re going to, if you do your, these non-negotiable things, whatever they are for you, you and you consistently do them. You’re going to develop marketable skills at some point, because you just are. You can’t not, I don’t think. And then acknowledge that at some point you’re going to be very skilled, but you will not be a superstar. And you might see the writing on the wall where you are never going to be a superstar, and some of us, I feel like I’m often I feel like I’m in that place right where I still have to do these non-negotiables, because you got to do them in order to be playing the game, and yet you know you can’t waste energy, and this is the crossroads people come to, I think you can’t waste energy on envy, like you’re you have to value personal growth over competition, and so I see it all the time where people get to that place and they get so frustrated because they’re working so hard and they’re so skilled and they’re doing everything right, you know? It must be someone else’s fault because they’re not getting this stardom or whatever they want and going viral. Yeah, and you know that’s where the reality, like, just of the universe, you know, comes at you, and I wind up finding that, and this is again, I’m gonna bristle some more of you people, like, you know, get ready for your feathers to be ruffled again. I have no respect for people who come to me, you know, with envy, rather I want to surround myself with people who are collaborators, so if you’re watching this and you’re one of my friends watching this, then obviously we probably talked about this before. You know, you’re a collaborative type of a person and not someone who is looking to compete with me. I also don’t want to be around people who envy what I achieve, because I am looking at all these people who have done so much more than I have, and I’m not, you know, begrudging them or being envious of them, or trying to figure out why did they get it and I didn’t get it, because that serves no purpose. So, I don’t want to be around people that play the victim, meaning their reasons that they don’t have what they want are due to external circumstances. I want to be around people that are in that situation, talking about what they can do to change things a little bit, and to move their needles forward, and you know the world doesn’t deliver accolades proportional to skills or to effort. So, when we come with complaints and we don’t come with solutions, I don’t feel like we’re adding anything positive at all to it. So, for me, I don’t care, and this is the bristling part, and I mean this out of a place of sincerity, but I don’t care how old you are, like I’m old, I’m going to be on Medicare next year, you know, I don’t care how handicapped you are, we all have handicaps and things that we’re dealing with, you know, you haven’t seen my medical records, that would make you probably cringe, you, you don’t know how you know how many people have been in situations where they were not financially stable. I didn’t grow up rich, so you have to be creative and find a solution. If you have a thought, my belief is that you can move with that thought, you can move your art career if you want to forward a nanometer, and then the next day or the next hour you move it forward another nanometer, another nanometer, and soon you get a millimeter. You might not get the yardstick, but you get the millimeter, you know. So that’s kind of where I am on all of that. And some people I think come from really crappy circumstances and still do really well. Artists that I know that have had this happen, Michael Jackson kinds of, you know, people, and you wonder if maybe they’re not doing so great because they’ve had to overcome those circumstances, and they’ve looked at them as, you know, challenges instead of, you know, something that’s going to bring them down. It’s like, how do I get through this? So, I feel like none of us have excuses. We all have incredible access to more knowledge, better supplies, more resources, and you know, more tools than Rembrandt or Leonardo da Vinci ever had, and we have longer life expectancies. So, life takes no prisoners, but all of us are living in luxury compared to those Golden Age masters that we all admire, or at least I do. That’s kind of how I’m thinking on that. So, there, take that, and then I have three checkups that I perform regularly that I think maybe you want to think about doing too. The first one, tenacity and confidence in your artistic path. Do you have it? Like, it’s so important, I think, to have persistence through challenges. Last person standing wins. Do you guys watch like Alone and Naked and Afraid and Survivor, those kinds of shows? I love that The Last Man Standing is going to be the one that’s most persistent, is going to be the winner. Oftentimes we get long and impressive resumes, most of us do, and eventually nobody cares, like even people ask me for them, when you apply for things, they’ll oftentimes come back to me and ask me a question. I’m like, it’s right in bold, right in the first paragraph of my resume, but okay, here’s the answer again. So I don’t even think when they ask for them, they look at them anymore, but I think you should look at your resume regularly, like you should notice all your accomplishments if you’re one of the last men standing people, and you’re tenacious, and you’re a serious artist. I did the math one time, and I think you’re one in like a whole football stadium full of people, one in maybe 100,000 artists who do this, what we do. And I think that if you’re tenacious, you absolutely should take pride in your persistence and in your accomplishments, and just because external validations are not obvious doesn’t mean they’re absent. So we all get heard more than we know. Like, I don’t know, probably anybody that’s on the chat right now, you know, you’re in places and you’re being judged for good or for bad by people out there that you’ve never even met. The majority of our followers are lurkers, and the way that the social algorithms work, a lot of times I’ll be commenting and liking and following on people for years, and then realize, oh, I’m not even an official follower, because they just give you what it is that they think you like, and you know they’re usually right. Yeah, so thinking about all that, give yourself a little pat on the back and check out, you know, all the good things that you’ve done lately. Be grateful. If you don’t mind, I’m gonna take a quick break here. Okay. The second check that I regularly do is a soul check, and what do I mean by that? I mean aligning my artistic plan with my core values, and I’m starting to articulate this one more and more lately. I think that whatever brings pride and growth into your life, it comes from this alignment, and what do I mean by that? Well, if your plan aligns with your deepest self, you can see what audience you’re attracting by doing it, and you have to work at attracting a core audience. I think through authenticity, and I know that the FASO marketing talks a lot about this too, but it’s like the build it and they’ll come. The people who love what you do, they’re going to follow, find you. So people follow you for lots of different reasons, but let’s just say you have a fancy, and I’ve had this happen to me, probably a few of you have as well, or you’ve had like more amazing things happen, but you get into a place like a fancy magazine feature, or some kind of a, you win a best in show, or you’re someplace up on a pedestal, and your followers, there’ll be a peak, and then they’ll promptly fall away, fall, fall away from you, and the ones who don’t relate to you, or they outgrow you, or they relate more to that magazine than they do to you, or you know, in some cases they only wanted something from you, and then they got it, or they didn’t get it, so then they’ll, their engagement will dwindle, and this is what we mean when we talk about how the number of followers means little. It’s all about the quality of your followers, and the same goes for sales and price points. So, wherever your price points are, you get dismissed by those who don’t value your art and artists at different price points from where you are. So, like, if you’re out there putting out the most beautiful $50 painted rocks in the world, you’re not going to be featured someplace that values someone who’s doing $100,000 western, you know, whatever, 10 foot paintings, right? So, in truth, they’re the marketers, they’re going for the buck, so they’re going for whatever they think that their people are interested in, and most of us, or a lot of us, like the person who does the $50 rocks, they do the best $50 rocks there are. I was in London, and I saw this guy painting little one inch bubblegum scenes on the London Bridge turns out he’s world famous. He’s been all kinds of talk shows.

Angela Agosto 32:47

Wow,

Debra Keirce 32:48

who knew, right? He’s the best bubblegum painter ever. So, most of us are successful, and we have longer resumes than the artists that are featured, and depending on who you, how you define your success and who you’re marketing to, you could be more successful than them too. So, you can’t align your goals with whoever it is that you’re seeing that’s being raised up in this marketing space that you want to be in, or it just doesn’t work. And I think that’s pretty important. Feel like I’m going to start to lose my voice here. If you’re putting yourself in front of your potential audience, they’re going to assemble however you do that, and you can do it through social media, through teaching, through attending learning events. You can do it through giving and attending art attacks, art talks, art attacks, is what I said, that you can do it through art exhibitions that you’re part of, or have organized, or even ones that you know nothing about, or you can do it through volunteering at art events and societies, and once you do these things and network what you do, then your people will assemble. Now, here’s the thing, you guys, is I hate, I abhor, I despise, like I just do not like doing two of the things that I just listed, and then I listed six of them, two of them I tolerate doing, and two of them I actually do look forward to getting up and doing every day, and those are the things that are fun for me, but the truth of it is I’m going to go to my grave, never letting you know which are which, because we have to do all of them, so even though I talk about, oh, I’m only going to do the things that make me happy. Oh, yeah, well, you know, there’s some things you got to do that don’t make you so happy too, because, and it served no purpose to complain, as I said. So, we’re not going to do that, but if you do those things, eventually you’re going to connect with people, and it may be a small group or it may be a large group, it may lead to opportunities, or it may not. Galleries may offer you representation, or crickets. It may grow your followers and subscribers, or it may not. You may increase your sales, or it may not. So, another truth, on most days I wake up, and I’m not at all happy with the results. It’s like when you want to lose 10 pounds in the. And you’re eating all the whole foods, and, and the scale is not budging, and you’re like, what the heck, right? But you can’t dwell on those failures, you have to look at them as growth opportunities, and so that brings me to my third check, which is the nuances and the tweaks, like, what do you need to do in order to achieve more specific goals, and you know, how are we going to grow our art career, given that this, these are our circumstances. So that’s everything that I had to say. And in conclusion, I mean, this is how I’ve crafted my enjoyable and sustainable experience. And I will never, ever, ever willingly retire. Now, if anyone wants to test this, you can give me a billion dollars. I will definitely buy a jet and have that at my, you know, beck and call, and I’ll have a 24/7 driver who can take me to Connecticut whenever I want, you know, have some other bells and whistles, but I’m going to be getting up and doing my art career just like I do now, I believe. But this doesn’t mean that it’s all rainbows and unicorns, right? My life has its ups and downs and stuff. I got a crown that just fell out that I have to go to the dentist and get the temporary crown thing put back in. I mean, we’re all dealing with stuff, but all of what I’ve shared today is just that. It’s not advice. I don’t have a marketing degree, I don’t have an art degree, I don’t have a sales degree. I, it’s not a formula for success, it’s just sharing my observations and experiences. Take what you think works for you, ignore the rest, and know that you’re every bit as capable and as resourced as the artist that’s sitting next to you. In my belief, don’t try to achieve anyone else’s goals, like set your own goals and your own, you know, things you want to get done, and work toward them. And I want to say, good luck, and thanks for being on this insanely difficult but fulfilling journey with me. Find more at Debk art.com and check out the monthly FASO articles I write for FASO and Substack. Hope this finds you and helps you to live your best art life too. And also, can you guys share this link, and comment, and like, and let us all know your experiences, because we’re mine. Maybe some of them missed the mark. You truly might say something that someone needs to hear, and it’s like just what they want to want to know about today. So go forth and inspire. How did I do that?

Angela Agosto 37:16

Yeah, you did amazing. That was amazing advice, and I feel like everybody can walk away with something today. From

Olya Konell 37:22

I personally have to say, I felt like you spoke to me in something, because I’ve been beating myself up about, you know, at one point I was all I did was art, but then I got burnt out, and then I like that part of your talk, like that spoke to me in such a way, and I still consider myself an artist, like there’s my corner right here, nobody can see it, but I have two windows, like perfect lighting, and I can rotate my lights, and I still doodle, but I haven’t shared anything, and I’m going through this season because I’m helping my husband with stuff, because he has a business that actually pays the bills, so it’s kind of like I felt that you were speaking to me, and not just took this pressure that I was putting on myself for stuff. I’m like, oh, okay, this is this is just that, like, because you can’t, you really can’t do all the things.

Debra Keirce 38:12

Oftentimes, I think, like, the things we hear and see, and not make us feel like we should, or like we have to, or we should, we’re supposed to. Yeah,

Olya Konell 38:20

are we like you were talking about you, we look at other people’s idea of success, and we think that that’s what success means, and we’ve never stopped to ask ourselves, and actually I’m reminded, so in we have this activity in our marketing calendar that I think everybody could do once, it’s like a your true self audit, you spend a whole month asking yourself different questions, because there’s.. I’ve done some of that through my life. I grew up being raised by parents who instilled certain values and ideas, and most of them were wonderful, but some of them were cultural, some of them were not positive, you know, some of.. you know, you’re you, you learn a lot from how people handle things, how they handle stress, etc. You learn what success is to them, so you think that’s what you have to do to be admired by your parents. You know all of that, and there’s comes a time, I think, in every person’s life, not just an artist, where we have to sit down and shed that and actually ask ourselves, is this true or is this just an opinion?

Angela Agosto 39:24

Yeah,

Olya Konell 39:25

you know, and we have to go through that audit because sometimes we’re aiming for things that we realize that we don’t actually even want, you know,

Debra Keirce 39:34

and for some people that opens the floodgates. It’s like, oh, when you stop and think and you come to your conclusions, it’s like, wow, I’ve been preventing myself, like I’ve been getting in my own way all these years, and didn’t do

Speaker 1 39:46

right,

Angela Agosto 39:46

and I like what you said earlier, because it’s like, is this true for me? Does this, what worked for my family, my friend, or my, you know, who, my mentor, whoever you’re, you know, comparing yourself to, does that work for me? I think that is a really good. And kind of like a check to do, like you said, Deborah, you should do like a soul check, because I think I mean we’ve talked about this before in other webinars, that if you’re painting, or even if you’re, you know, a writing, or you know, musician, or whatever you may be, whatever creative, if you’re doing what really sits well with you, with your soul. It’s going to come out in your work. You’re going to want to go do the stuff that may seem a little hard, like going to workshops and doing all this, where it seems work. You’re going to want to do that, because you’re going to want to improve and get out what you’re actually, what’s in your head, what you, what’s in your soul that you want to paint. And I think that’s going to find an audience, because people are going to connect with that, there’s somebody out, is going to connect with your work.

Olya Konell 40:43

Yeah, Tim here says, Thank you. I love your focus on enjoying your art career more than making it big, in quotes. Very reinforcing for me, it is a very satisfying retirement activity, not my path to fame. And in law, I can’t read today, and fortune, you know, signed Tim. No, I agree, because at the end of the day, whether we are super famous, and I’ve been on this topic a lot, because I’ve lost people in my life within a short period of time, friends, family, it’s like this is a talk that you don’t really, it’s not something you always think about until you have to think about, but we’re all going to die, and whether you’re super famous, you’re going to die, or you’re, or you’re not super famous, you’re going to die, and so your, your, your thoughts on legacy, and like, you know, how are we going to be remembered by the community? How are we going to be remembered by our family and friends, and what truly matters at the end, because, like, what a sad life it is to live, that you are aiming for something that truly brought you no joy along the way. You know, you do have to balance. You know, life isn’t perfect. We have to do things we don’t love. We have to pay bills. We have to wash the toilet, squid clean the toilet. Like, there’s things we have to do. You know, sometimes I hate.. you know, I have to wash my hair. I’m like, I hate washing.. you know, just whatever it is about life that you just is like a chore. I have chickens, I love them, but I have to clean the chicken coop once in a while. One

Debra Keirce 42:08

of my dear, dearest friends, I wasn’t going to bring her up, but she would love that I am. She’s probably watching me. Her name is Lori Silvagi, and she just passed away from stomach cancer, and she lives in, lived in the Knoxville area. She just passed away last Monday, and so, but I had some conversations with her beforehand, and she literally taught me how to.. I don’t think I can do it necessarily, but how to die gracefully. In that one of the last things she said to me was, you know, my one biggest regret, besides, you know, her husband and family having to go through the grieving process, and all said, my one biggest regret, Deb, is that you know we just got to a place where we are doing so well and so happy in our art, and we have the skills to do what we want to do, and now I don’t get to make any more, you know, I don’t get to put any more out there, and I, yeah, and I teared up too, and but I’ve thought about it so many times since that conversation, and I’m like, you know, that is like, doesn’t everybody want to go out with that regret? You know,

Olya Konell 43:14

I wish I could have made, yeah, yeah, you know, and there’s a lot of

Angela Agosto 43:18

people,

Olya Konell 43:19

yeah, there’s a quote that’s like the richest as artists we should feel. I reflect on this sometimes, like the fact that we picked up the brush to begin with, the pack or the pencil or the clay, or whatever it is that we’re working in, the fact that we even did it. Think of all the people that have that, that had that creative, you know, part of them that they never did anything with, and that dies with them when they die, and then there’s like this quote where the cemetery is the richest place in the whole universe, because it’s all the ideas that were, you know, inventions that were never built, stories that were never written, songs that were never saw, you know, all of the things that we have in us, and like the artist that picks up the brush, whether it be for a long period of their life or a short period of their life, or sporadically, like it doesn’t matter, like you didn’t take that to the grave, like what a beautiful thing, you know,

Angela Agosto 44:12

right? And it’s like you took that first step, so you are better today than you were yesterday when you hadn’t even started, and then tomorrow, if you keep going, then you’re even better than the day before, and just with that, like people who are just starting out, they’re like, oh, you know, I’m, I’m older, I, you know, there’s quite a few artists who say I started later, that’s okay, I mean, I’m kind of doing the same thing now, because I did take a break and I did other stuff, you know, to raise kids and all that, but I knew it as a kid, and I didn’t, like, we, you mentioned something, you touched on it a little bit earlier, Deborah, where, like, you know, my family, you did too, as well. It was like, no, don’t do art, that is not going to pay the bills. And so I gave it up, and then I would just kind of do it as a little hobby, you know, kind of when I needed to decompress. So then I realized, okay, that’s my decompress, that that’s where my happy place, and I’m still kind of doing that. And now I’m in the art world, so I get to, I do love little. At art and doing all that, and then you know, I take the time, I get inspired every day by seeing the art. We’re like, oh, you know, maybe I need to go this weekend, and

Olya Konell 45:07

yeah,

Angela Agosto 45:07

do that. So I think just start somewhere, even if it’s a hobby at first, and then you make it a career, or if it just stays a hobby, that’s okay, you’re still doing something you love.

Olya Konell 45:18

Yeah, I, and then Chris says successful when when preparedness meets opportunities. Being successful in any field means a job well done in a timely manner. Patience, execution, and I’m reading - I’m not reading well today. Methodical work are essential, but also it is necessary to take personal joy in what you do. Yeah, very so

Debra Keirce 45:41

right, and the patience part of it, I think, is what our culture, current culture, is really taking away, because I don’t think my kids grew up with as much patience as we had to have. I don’t think I had as much patience as my grandmother having used ring or washing machine, you know, like we just don’t.

Angela Agosto 45:58

Yeah,

Debra Keirce 45:59

be even different, even more different. Where we’re going to, I think, be even less patient, you know?

Angela Agosto 46:04

Yeah, the more stuff is at our fingertips. I want to.. I hate to say it, but the lazier we get, because we feel like we don’t have to actually.. oh, I’ll just see it here. And then you kind of get consumed, and it’s like you didn’t even do it, because you were too busy watching. I know one of our writers.. I can’t remember if it was.. oh, if it was Eugene. I’m trying to think of one of our writers. He wrote about this gentleman that he used to see in an elevator, and he worked there. And then, you know, he’d always greet him, always say hello, and it was like a daily thing. And then he said one day he didn’t, and he was in a corner on his phone, and he said, oh, you know, hi. And then he’s like, oh, sorry, you know, my kids just got me on on YouTube, or I think it was TikTok or something. He goes, and I’m learning how to do this because I really want to do, and it was a creative.. I can’t remember what it was at the moment, but and so he saw him at that for months and months and months, like he said he never did it because he every time I’d see him, he was on his phone watching and watching. He goes, and I realized I don’t think he’s ever going to do it, you know? Like, I tried talking to him, and he wasn’t the same cheerful person, just always on his phone. I was like, wow, that, and that made me realize, you know, what, that’s true. Sometimes I’ll go on Pinterest or somewhere, and I, I keep doing, I keep doing, and then I’m like, oh, you know, it’s been two months, and I haven’t actually put it to practice yet. Let me take a break.

Debra Keirce 47:16

Even artwork, like, if you put more than six seconds on a video, you know, the algorithms say, well, probably won’t get very many views, you know, and you would think that art would be something that you’d want to, like, spend your time looking at, but apparently the ones where it flashes quickly make people more engaged, so

Olya Konell 47:36

yeah, and you know, I think it’s, I think it’s just, it’s called the attention economy is the marketing term used, so that is what businesses are paying for. They’re paying for ad spots, they’re paying for somebody to mention their company name on a, on a video, because it’s, you know, that’s to get to get someone’s attention is the most valuable thing, because they say within the first three seconds that’s your opportunity, that’s how short our attention spans. Yes, when it comes to social media, I do think it’s different in different environments, obviously. So, if you go someplace in person, you’re walking, you’re more likely to slow down at a fair, at an event, and I actually wanted to comment on that specifically to the to all the different things that you do, where you listed learning events through giving and attending art talks, through our exhibitions, like volunteering events, societies, going places for everybody listening, and anybody listening to the recording, the value of actually going to support others and attend and view the amount of exposure that gives you, like, you know, it’s such, you’re giving because you’re contributing your time, you’re showing up, you’re supporting whatever it is, but at the same time, the I think we sometimes forget that marketing is the simple act of meeting other humans and telling them that we are an artist, that’s it. For artists, that is simply it. Like for other businesses, it’s going to be different because they’re selling products and services, right? For artists, it’s the art is just important as the artist, so whether it’s social media, you know, and you can, you know, we have artists that come on, and some swear by Instagram, and some hate Instagram, and some like this, and some only do sell at shows, and the thing that I always like to remind people of is, like, we are all unique individuals with different skills, so if you’re really good at something, put more energy into that, do a little bit of everything else, but that becomes your thing, you know. And you still go to do this and that, and it’s there’s not like one. It’s that’s at the end of the day, it’s just, did you go out and meet people in person or online? Did you shake some hands? Did you interact somehow? That’s the real. Yellow, it is, and

Debra Keirce 50:01

that’s like that guy I was talking about. His name’s Ben Wilson, the London Bridge artist guy. Yeah, you know, he’s out there in person, and he’s not interacting with anybody, but he’s there physically. I think that played into his becoming popular, his going viral.

Angela Agosto 50:16

Yeah, I’m sure. I know we had a few artists. There was two that come to mind. Warren Chang said he went to a friend’s art reception, like an opening, and that’s how he was discovered, you know. He, I think, by a gallery, and then he said he found somebody who became a collector later as well, just by going to that one event that wasn’t even for him, but it’s, you know, kind of interacting, sort of talking to people, and then we also had Steve Atkins, who said that he volunteered to do a poster for the rodeo that they have in Prescott, Arizona, and since it’s been a few years now that he actually designs the poster for the big event, they sell his prints there, he gets to actually keep it in commission, I think, and sell the painting itself, so it’s kind of become a commission, but it’s, it’s for him now every year, so he gets a lot of exposure because he gets to sit there and meet people with his paintings and do like a little demo or something, and then I know, like, for Shanna, she said that, or Shayna, she said that for her DMing, interacting on social media, so we just had two that I mentioned in person going to events, and then we had somebody who does it online, I mean, I’m sure she does in person as well, but she said for her that’s where she communicates with people, and I know I’ve got two other people who said that Facebook, whenever they go on Facebook and post something and just kind of talk a little bit about it, their painting always sells. So I feel like, you know, there’s two options. If you don’t have access, maybe you live in a small town, you don’t have art fairs, or you know, art events, then do the online thing more. If you get a chance, like Deborah, you had said, you know, you found six to take you, maybe you, you have some friends online in the art world, and they’re going to travel somewhere, and maybe you just need to get to where they’re at, and then you all travel together, like that can be something else you can do to kind of do the in person.

Debra Keirce 52:00

The number one artist on TikTok, Devon Rodriguez. He’s the guy who does all the portraits of people in the subway in New York, and all that. Yeah, he actually.. he actually.. it’s a funny story, but I was with another friend of mine, Juan Ramirez, and we were at the portrait gallery in DC, and we were looking at an exhibition, and he was down there, Davon was looking at a port at something that a friend had done, which was a sculpture of Devon on that was on the wall in the portrait gallery, and so it was kind of cool. The guard let him go behind the thing and take a picture, but afterwards I invited them back to my house, and so it was Devon and Mon, who Mon Habib, Devon Rodriguez, and Juan, so I had Mon Juan and Devon in my, and they, and so Devon and Juan were painting and drawing Man, and we were talking about things, and I had no idea who Devon was, because he wasn’t famous back then, he was living in Brooklyn and talking about how he’d like to get out of the hood, and you know, stuff, you know, the going on in his life, and again came really rough circumstances and stuff, and and so we were having this conversation about things, and then it was like the next year, one year, two years later, I’m seeing him on TikTok, I’m like, what the heck, so I’m DMing him, going, what happened? I guess all your dreams came true, you know. He’s like, yeah, that was so cool, but he was, I mean, literally it happened that fast, where it went viral, and it was just, he was all lined up, because he was talking about how he didn’t have the money to go to RISD, which was his dream, and I’m looking at what he’s drawing, going, I don’t think you need RISD, you know, and and so it was, it was that quickly that opportunity, but it was years and years, I don’t know how many, that he had been doing the stuff on the subway, and, like you said, it was in person, and he’s interacting with people, and I don’t know exactly how he got the TikTok talk gig, how that all happened for him, but it’s like when you line yourself up in those places where you’re around people, you’re just setting yourself up for those eventual successes, and

Angela Agosto 54:07

you

Debra Keirce 54:08

still have to be patient. I mean, he went through a lot in order to get to where he is now, but it’s really cool to see this, you know, Rags to Rich’s story actually happen. And then he bought his grandmother a house, and they’re living in, you know,

Angela Agosto 54:19

part of New

Debra Keirce 54:20

York now, and all it’s like, wow,

Olya Konell 54:22

that’s amazing. So I followed him from the, that probably that first year, like I, because I do have a TikTok, it’s more for, you know, I’ll just go look at stuff, and I remember him popping up, and I remember his first, like, video going, like, I actually followed him from the beginning, and I just thought it was so cool, but I had no idea that you know you met him a year prior, and what an amazing story like that would be, that that would be an amazing, yeah, that is an amazing story, and it’s a reminder to all of us that we all have that that story of the beat of the bee of the before and. What you were talking about, like peaking sometimes as artists, we some artists might peak early in life, some might peak later. There is no formula, there is no perfect shoe for success. And then I had a thought, and I wanted to share this with everybody. One of the things you talked about was, like, it, you know, being envious is not productive, or being, you know, all of those frustrations, being frustrated about this, your circumstances, because you have, you, you know, you, you have a hard life, or you can’t do this, or you have that. There’s an interesting, you know, all of that. I would lump into the category of stress, stressful things, right? You know that we go through in life, whether it be challenges or whatever. There’s there’s a fascinating article, like on a brain, you know, like brain research studies. Stress is only harmful to you if you believe it is. So they studied this, they had, they did the groups of people, they.. this is a.. this is a measured fact that that stress is only harmful if you believe it is. If you believe that it makes you stronger. So, they had three groups of people: people that believe that stress makes them stronger, or stressful situations, or hard challenges in life. People that had literally practically no stress in their life lived a very stress-free life, and people that believe that stress was bad for their health or bad for whatever, the people that believe that stress made them stronger lived longer than those that had no stress at all, that reported no stress at all, and those that obviously believed that it was bad for them. It obviously, they had the shortest lifespans, etc. So that tells you how powerful our brain is when it comes to what happens physiologically to our bodies. It is the same for everything else that we do in life. So, if challenge, if you believe challenges will make you stronger and will help you succeed, there’s a part of your brain called the Reticular Activating System, and that is literally your built-in subconscious algorithm that connects your conscious mind with your subconscious mind, and it sits kind of right at the base of your brainstem, and so what it does is, if that’s what you believe, your subconscious interpretations, what you notice, all of that, you know, it doesn’t have a reasoning mechanism. It literally takes input data, like, I, you know, I, I’m always late, you will always be late, I, you know, so you know that thing about never speaking negatively about yourself, you know, all the woo, so there’s actually a scientific wired way that our brain works, so if you believe that you know all these challenges I’m going through, these financial struggles, like they will, I will break through someday, I’m going to find an opportunity that reticular activating system will notice the opportunity, kind of like hearing your name called out in a loud room full of lots of voices, that’s literally what it does, you know, and so it’s just fascinating to me, like that, you know, sometimes we are our at worst enemy because we put up those barriers that prevent ourselves, you know, from getting to that place,

Debra Keirce 58:20

and what you’re saying, oh yeah, I think the value in this is once you know this, you can’t, on you can’t not see that, so like, have you ever been in those situations, I have, where you join a sketch group or you join a critique group or something, and you, and you can see the people that are just dragging everybody down into those negative rabbit holes, and you get out of them, the people that get out of them, you can, you can watch, and you see those are the ones who are successful, or at least happy in their art careers, and then the people in those rabbit holes, you know, they continue to be there for years, or the group disbands, so yeah, I’ve seen what you, what you’re exactly what you’re talking about, like play out, and I think that once you’re aware of it, you, it’s very obvious when you, from the minute you walk into a group, you kind of get that vibe, and you know, right?

Olya Konell 59:08

You just know exactly, and you’re not, and I heard this somewhere, like, if you’re in, if you’re in a group or in a place or something, you’re not a tree, just

Angela Agosto 59:20

move, yeah, that’s that’s true, and I know for myself, and even like I’ve been trying to instill that in my kids,

Olya Konell 59:25

yeah,

Angela Agosto 59:26

when the stuff, or you know, like a deadline or stress, I’m actually at my best, like my creative, whether it’s cooking or drawing, or you know, a project I have to do, I’m sharper, and it comes out even better because I had that little stress, it kind of becomes like a little bit of a good adrenaline for me, yeah, motivates me to do it, and sometimes when I’m stuck, I’m like, maybe I need somebody to stress me out, because I’m not going, and I know we had one artist, she was telling me that she had a, she kind of felt like she had gotten blocked, but it’s because she gets so stressful when she would commit. Something, and then time was ticking, and maybe she had committed to certain paintings for an exhibition, and then she would get stuck, because she would kind of let that become sort of like a bad mind game for herself, and she’s like, “I’m blocking, so she’s like, “I’m never doing those again. Like, okay, I think you’ll know your limits. Yeah.

Debra Keirce 1:00:17

Do you watch those? What I was talking about, the Naked and afraid and alone shows. Do you ever watch any of those?

Olya Konell 1:00:22

Yes, I have.

Angela Agosto 1:00:23

I’ve never

Debra Keirce 1:00:24

seen.

Olya Konell 1:00:24

I have. I don’t ever tune in for a whole season, because, but I will watch like all randomly. I want to watch this episode, not watch

Debra Keirce 1:00:34

it. I’m fascinated in those about how the mind, your mindset can overcome things that, like, I couldn’t even fathom experiencing the bug bites, and you know, the heat, all that stuff, the thorns, all the stuff they have to do. How you can just put your brain in a place. And here’s the thing, is I feel like, as artists, we have this superpower we don’t talk about very much, and probably only it sounds like you’re very aware of this brain stuff, but there’s the theta brain, the waves that happen, and when you go into your zone of painting or drawing, or whatever you’re doing to create, you are in that theta zone, and I know for myself that this is why I have to cut myself off at four hours of driving, is I go into these theta zone places much more easily now that I’ve been arting for so long, and so when I’m driving along, if I’m thinking about an art project or whatever, I’ll forget I’m the one behind the wheel, and I’ll be like, you know, somebody stopped the car. Oh, wait, I’m driving, you know, I mean, dangerous if I’m not focused, so I got to pay attention to that. But yeah, I feel like that’s one of our superpowers as artists, is to go into that place where we can have that mindset that we need to overcome those things.

Olya Konell 1:01:44

Yeah, absolutely. And for me, music is a huge thing. I’ll turn something on, and that kind of sets the.. because, yes, time just.. it’s almost like you’re in a time warp, and time ceases to exist, and you’re like, yeah, I. Angela, something you mentioned, and I wanted to throw this out. So, I heard this quote - it, I don’t remember from who, and I wish I could give credit, but it said that creativity is basically problem solving, or somebody said it, or something. But I heard it somewhere, I really liked it, because at the end of the day, like, everything, it’s like your creativity is probably, how am I going to capture this? You’re probably, you know, how am I? You know, you’re how am I going to say this? How am I going to portray this? Or if creativity in the workspace is something as simple as, like, I only have one hour and I need to get this done, so how can I go from A to Z the fastest? You know, oh, I’ll just do this, I’ll just do that. You’re done, because I am the same way. I will intend, I’ll actually give myself a faux deadlines, you know, and I’ll have an alarm going off, like I have one hour left, or whatever. I will intentionally do that for myself, because that literally lights a little bit of that creative fire, and I’m like, oh wait, if I layer this, if I even in painting, I’m like, okay, I have to get this commission done, if I do it this way. If I under paint in acrylic and over paint in oil, I’ll have a thinner oil layer. I can still use, you know what I mean, like, but I can get it to dry fast enough to ship by this date, or whatever.

Angela Agosto 1:03:14

Yeah, yeah.

Olya Konell 1:03:18

Oren says self-doubt, it’s is a huge motivator to do your best work.

Angela Agosto 1:03:22

Yes,

Olya Konell 1:03:23

yeah.

Debra Keirce 1:03:24

Orin’s amazing. It’s Orin Laloy, I bet he’s a friend of mine, and he’s an amazing artist. He’s he’s someone who you probably want to have on a webinar someday.

Olya Konell 1:03:34

Oh, we’ll have to check

Angela Agosto 1:03:35

him out,

Olya Konell 1:03:36

Oren

Debra Keirce 1:03:38

Laloya, L O L O I. Sounds like a song, doesn’t it? When you,

Olya Konell 1:03:43

yes, and Vivi was asking, what was the name of the art program you said you went to,

Debra Keirce 1:03:48

Any Art Academies, and it’s you can do it remotely, which is how I did it, because I’m not local to any of the schools, but it’s really quite amazing. It’s Ani was the curriculum was written by Anthony Whychulis, who I can.. I’m proud to call a friend, but he’s probably one of the, if not the best trompe l’oeil artists in the country today, and he teamed up with a couple of other people who created these five, I think they have five now, schools in different places, his in New Jersey, or excuse me, in Pennsylvania, and then I’m going to get them wrong, so you can just go to the website and look, but they’re like Thailand and Sri Lanka and different places, right, and they’re what they are is people that want to be students at the Aynte Art Academies can apply to do so, and if you get accepted, and I think it’s like 15 or 20 in each location, then you are accepted. There’s no tuition, there’s no supply. You don’t pay for supplies. Everything is provided for you. And what they are is these places that are in these different countries, they’re in third world type situations, but right next to a very exclusive. Of resort, you know, the kind that you pay 1000s of dollars a week to get like all of your needs met and have a wonderful time, and so they’ve created an economy between the resorts and the schools, so that people will have, they’ll have an art show, and people will have sales, and I mean, there, you know, if a painting is purchased at one of the prices, like we would have in the United States, which they’re, you can look at them, they’re totally worth it, that can, like, buy someone a house over there, you know, so it’s a really neat humanitarian and philanthropic, and, but you know, wonderful industry that they have going on

Speaker 2 1:05:37

here,

Debra Keirce 1:05:37

but they also have the language of drawing and the language of painting, both of which are available in DVDs, which is how I did them, and, and you print, you get a bunch of stuff printed out in a big binder, and then you can go ahead and you can follow the curriculum. What I did was, because I’m friends with a lot of the people in the curriculum, I went and I talked to the instructors and different people, and you can connect with people, and you can either do it in a paid way, or you can do it, you know, in just a off-the-cuff way, or whatever, get their opinion on whether your assignments, you know, whether you’ve passed or whatever, but also now with AI, you can go on to AI, and you can say, hey, does this piece that I just completed, here’s my, my an image of it does this meet the exercise, the criteria for the exercises for the language of drawing on the academy’s program, or whatever, and compare, and basically use AI to give you, because they’ve got this thing called Smarter Marks, Smarter, and then M A R X that Anthony runs, it’s a website with all kinds of information, including the criteria and everything that is required to do these assignments for the Ani Art Academies, and so the AI will access that and be able to, you know, like basically be an online grader, not as good as being there in person, not as good as going, paying someone to be an instructor, and, and you know, follow you on every assignment, but anyway, that’s more probably than this person wanted to know. But

Olya Konell 1:07:06

no, this

Angela Agosto 1:07:07

I think it’s good. I actually posted the name, I got it from your, from your site, and I did post earlier your resume, so they could see what you were talking about.

Olya Konell 1:07:14

Yeah,

Debra Keirce 1:07:14

okay. Thank you.

Olya Konell 1:07:15

There’s, you know, and and there’s lots of different.. I think it’s amazing that there’s lots of different options for people, depending on where they are geographically on the globe, or where they are in life, and you know, time, and sometimes on online is easier. Like, I’ve.. I’m also, I guess, a self-taught artist, you know, and I know that I need to.. I do need to.. I’m in that place where I do.. I’m ready for some feedback, and I want to learn from some people in person, and I want to do that, but it is, you know, I, it’s, it’s amazing how much you can learn on online, the amount of hours I would watch for free on YouTube, like I found artists whose art I admired, and they put out videos, and I would just sit there and watch them paint, and then pause, and, like, okay, you know, and it’s amazing how much you can learn by observation, especially.

Debra Keirce 1:08:06

And I have not done it, but doesn’t FASO have that option where you can create tutorials or whatever on YouTube, and then put them on your website and sell them?

Angela Agosto 1:08:16

Yes, yes, you sure can. We do have, you know, where you can post your videos and sell them. Some of some artists give them for free on there, and then they link to where, oh, here’s the portions,

Speaker 1 1:08:25

you know,

Angela Agosto 1:08:26

ones, yeah, and

Debra Keirce 1:08:26

I don’t, I mean, I want to tell you guys how to do your business, but you know what would be cool is if you had a tab on the website where you could like access all the artists that have their videos available, you know, then maybe we

Angela Agosto 1:08:38

actually do, we do have a section, it’s in the control panel, which we’re updating now, going to be called the dashboard, but under videos you can see all the free ones that anybody’s posted to share for free, and then we used to obviously sell some courses as well, so for those who bought some in the past, you can also see purchase videos, and then, of course, your own that you’re going to have on your site, but yeah, we do have it. It’s a little buried. It is going to be a little bit. It’s going to actually be on the top bar, only there’s going to be like three or four on the new UI that’s coming, the new interface that’s coming soon. And it’s going to also, I know we had complaints, people like, it’s so small and it’s, it’s black and you can’t really see it. We took all that into consideration. So feedback, we are. It’s always welcome. So, yes, Deborah, thank you. And it is going to be now more highlighted, since you, you know, obviously you didn’t know it was there, and there’s people who don’t know it’s there either.

Olya Konell 1:09:29

Yeah, for artists that you were talking about lucrative ways of making money, you know, for example, teaching is one of those, and there’s different ways of teaching. There’s online, there’s in person for the artist that maybe goes into, okay, I want to teach, but I just want to record a video and make it affordable, so people can get it, and that way there’s a slow trickle. Something that I have seen for anyone listening, if you want to kind of see it done really well, Matthew White is a watercolor painter, and he has a very. Big YouTube channel, and so he’ll put out. He’s very generous, and he puts out videos for free, but if you want to, like, in all of his videos, you can get a free something if you sign up for his newsletter, and that’s where he has all of the full on courses. Like, he’s developed these video courses, people, like, there’s my, you know, people can get critiques, they can, you know, so if you have the, if, if, if you are up for that, like it’s a certain type of brain that likes to organize information that way, and can put it all together. If you’re an artist that you’re like, huh, my brain likes that, I want to do that, go look at his, look at how he does it, maybe go sign up, see what you get, you know, and you can mimic, you know, and do your own thing for your own art. If you’re into that teaching space, and it’s did

Angela Agosto 1:10:51

a whole session with us too,

Angela Agosto 1:10:53

for

Speaker 1 1:10:53

those

Olya Konell 1:10:54

about it.

Angela Agosto 1:10:54

Yeah, for FASO members, you can go to the marketing center video library, and you can see, because it was a whole session we did on that right, where he explained how he monetized YouTube by just first offering for free, and I remember it was really small, the number, and then within like a year he

Olya Konell 1:11:10

took off,

Angela Agosto 1:11:11

yeah, a

Olya Konell 1:11:11

consistency, and it was that’s what he said, so your, your mention of consistency, I think we underestimate the power of doing small things over a long period of time. Sometimes

Debra Keirce 1:11:23

we do, we do,

Olya Konell 1:11:25

yeah. And that patience, and oh gosh, what is it? It’s like think about the little water drip always fall, and it can carve a rock, you know, a single water. So we, and the same thing for weight loss, like, oh, I want it yesterday, you know, or I want it done tomorrow, like anything, whether it be a health goal, or

Speaker 1 1:11:46

yeah,

Olya Konell 1:11:46

you know,

Angela Agosto 1:11:47

hey, yeah,

Olya Konell 1:11:48

yeah, but I really appreciate, I really appreciate the direct messages, and I think that it needs to be said, and I felt like sometimes, you know, there’s spaces in rooms where we wouldn’t go, and, like you said, blurt that out, because that’s not the audience didn’t come for that, but in this space, in this room, for this episode, this is why people are coming, because they want to hear those things, and I think that we need, we need those rooms, we need those spaces, because we can’t be coddled too much, you know. Otherwise, it’s going to set us up for failure.

Debra Keirce 1:12:30

And my hope, truly, is that people, you know, go forth and inspire, like I said, in that, you know, they’ll hear these things, and then maybe have discussions in other groups, or wherever they’re interacting with artists, and you know, maybe not be so shy to just go, “Hey, you know, what do you think about this or that? Because I can talk about these things in person, but when you write them things down, like I’m very careful in those FASO Way articles, I try to be careful, because whatever you say can be interpreted depending on the intonation in so many different ways, so you don’t ever want to offend anybody, but you know there’s there’s value in having these frank discussions, because we’re all going through it and we’re all feeling it.

Olya Konell 1:13:09

Yeah, and you’re right, be there’s no, no amount of emojis that you

Angela Agosto 1:13:14

can put

Olya Konell 1:13:15

behind certain sentences to make sure they land right, because they, those things are meant to be said with the voice and tone and facial expressions, and I think that’s what makes it hard. Some, sometimes, is like when you can’t see the other people’s faces, you’re like, am I going too far? Am I, you know, yeah.

Debra Keirce 1:13:34

And, and if you’re not good at reading the room, you could be like, I talked a lot about people who play the victim, and it’s not. I don’t, I think it’s culturally encouraged. I don’t think it’s necessarily their fault, but I feel like those people don’t even know what they’re doing, and everybody around them, you can just see people’s like body language cringing or whatever when they’re talking, and you feel for them, and yet you can’t reach out and say to them, stop, this is what you’re doing, and so maybe if they heard something like this, you know, or a conversation that’s third party that doesn’t involve them, that wait a minute, maybe would click and go do that

Angela Agosto 1:14:08

for sure. I know how many times I’ve told somebody something, especially my kids, and then a few years later it’s like, oh, this teacher, this professor told me this, and then sometimes I get the, I know you told me that, I’m like, I don’t even care, as long as you finally got it. I don’t, don’t need credit, I don’t need to. I said, I’m just happy you finally heard it. And usually I feel like coming from an outside source, you’re probably going to listen than somebody close to you. Tell me, and I think it’s great that you put the notes together and shared it with everybody, because seeing that, and then you know, reading that, and then actually seeing you talk about each one, and addressing, I think, really gave us a lot of context on what your message was for each, so

Olya Konell 1:14:48

yeah,

Debra Keirce 1:14:49

text is important in these frank discussions. I’m

Olya Konell 1:14:53

really excited for this to actually go out, so if anybody you know is watching the recording, thank. You for joining us, please. If you’re watching the recording, getting, you know, share your experiences. If you have things that maybe you don’t say out loud, but you can, you know, feel comfortable putting it into a comment, feel free to go ahead and drop them in the comments as well. We love the discussions we get on some of these, you know, articles or posts or emails that go out, we get a lot of good thoughts and interactions and feedback.

Debra Keirce 1:15:27

We make a rule: no judgment, like whatever goes in the comments stays in the comments. This

Olya Konell 1:15:31

is, this is a

Debra Keirce 1:15:33

people feel safe. Yeah,

Olya Konell 1:15:35

this is this is a safe zone. Absolutely. So, and we’re just going to assume that there’s like a bunch of positive emojis behind, like we’re going to assume that everything is coming from a place of genuine pure heart. Yeah, so

Debra Keirce 1:15:53

I don’t think Angela could be anything but pure hearted if she..

Angela Agosto 1:15:56

I always tell people I’m going to never assume that you’re going to.. you’re being mean, so if you want to be direct, I said, “You better just tell me, because I’m just gonna assume that you, that you’re coming from a good place.

Olya Konell 1:16:07

Yeah, I like, I like living life that way as well. But I.. oh, one last question from.. we’ll grab it, Toby. Our non-confungal. oh,

Angela Agosto 1:16:21

probably NFTs,

Olya Konell 1:16:22

yeah, NF, NFTs worth investing in as an artist, or are they a fad? So, what are your thoughts? I know what my thoughts are, but Deborah, what do you think?

Debra Keirce 1:16:32

I have no thoughts. I am literally so focused on what I’m doing right now. I don’t even do prints, I don’t do videos, I don’t do prints, I don’t do anything but original fine art that I’m selling to people in different venues, so to me the NFT is it’s not tangible, and I want to back to my engineering days, I went into chemical engineering because I mean I know gasses, you can’t see them, but most things is flowing, water flowing through pipes, and you can touch them, it’s tangible, I didn’t even like electricity because it scared me, because it was something you couldn’t see, so I feel like in the engineering world, NFTs are like electrical engineers, I don’t, you don’t want to get too close to them, they can shock you, you know, so I think that it can be good, and certainly all of us need our power, right, but on the other hand, I don’t know enough to, I know enough just to be dangerous, so I think it’s like any other, the people, the artists who I know, who have, and I won’t say their names, because I don’t know that they want to be publicly called out like that as people that are experts in it, but the ones that have gotten into it, and I’ve just, I’m just an observer, they’ve spent a lot of time learning the whole thing, and I mean it’s like anything else, they’ve had to devote, I mean, they pulled away from creating original art and were only doing AI-generated art and creating NFTs, and that was how they got their level of success in that area, and I just wasn’t willing to do that, so I didn’t,

Olya Konell 1:17:55

yeah, yeah, I think that’s a very, I love your analogy that if you aren’t careful, you can get electrocuted, because yes, you can. If you’re not careful, you can get scammed really, really, really bad. And you have to learn a lot, just like you would to become an electrical engineer. Like, you have to understand how everything works to be able to play that game, and it takes a lot of time. You don’t, you don’t just get a certificate, like certificate, like of completion, like you actually have to go to school to work to be an electrician, like you, you, there’s, it’s, it’s even as a trade, it’s not one that you can just get your foot in the door and, like, you know, and work your way up into, like, this is it, this is one of those things, so that’s what I would say is, if you have the time, and you have your brain can wrap around the ideas of, and you have the will, you know, determination and willpower, and you’re gonna, you’re gonna invest into it. It might work for you, like you, she was saying, but

Angela Agosto 1:18:56

it’s a lot of research.

Olya Konell 1:18:57

If you’re looking for an easy way to make money, that is not it.

Angela Agosto 1:19:00

It is not. There’s always things changing with the currencies, and that we had somebody on for, and she said that she spent a lot of time, like I mean a good year doing research. And then we just had somebody ask about that, like, it, what do I do if I’m getting, you know, asked for NFTs? I think Clint commented, and he said, if you don’t do it, you’re not familiar, and then just say sorry. No, I don’t do this. Don’t you know? Here are my paintings. Here’s my actual, you know, actual work that you could purchase, but don’t even try to get for somebody new with promises, because most of the time is you’re going to get scammed, or you’re even if you’re, if it’s real, maybe you’re not going to get the full money or the full worth of it, because you didn’t know much about

Olya Konell 1:19:42

it. Yeah,

Debra Keirce 1:19:43

I’ve been told time and again that those people who send all those emails saying, I love your art, is it available in NFTs? They’ve told me time and again people who I consider experts that nobody in the NFT world is going to email an artist and say, can I have an NFT of your work? So,

Olya Konell 1:19:59

yes. They are only going to go to places where they’re already being sold, and Toby, to answer your question, selling them, that’s exactly what we’re talking about. Selling NFTs is not an easy, simple thing to do. There’s a lot you have to learn to get started, to do it right, to actually be able to sell them. So, if you’re willing to jump into it and learn, and you know, if you don’t do the learning, you will probably end up getting the short, well, you will get the short end of the stick, possibly get scammed, you know, and you’re going to spend, you know, you’re, you’re not going to get the reward that you’re looking for, as far as making money, so

Angela Agosto 1:20:38

if

Olya Konell 1:20:38

you’re going to sell them, is it worth investing only if you want to invest time, money, and you know, I think time is the biggest one, and mental bandwidth, because it’s, it’s not something that you just go on, upload a picture, and there you go, you know,

Angela Agosto 1:20:58

yeah, and I was gonna,

Olya Konell 1:21:00

yeah,

Angela Agosto 1:21:00

say that, even though we had the person on there, and we pretty much, the whole conversation between her and Clint was about NFTs, and she had another, another artist who was doing it as well. It was a few years ago, so probably the information is a little outdated with, because I know that they’ve changed stuff with Bitcoin and all that other

Olya Konell 1:21:17

stuff. For a while there, I was hearing stuff about it. I was seeing it on X, you know, or formerly known as Twitter, whatever. But, like, I.. but now I don’t see anything

Angela Agosto 1:21:28

about them

Olya Konell 1:21:29

at all. So I think of it like as Pokémon cards, you know, they’re things come and go. Maybe I don’t know.

Debra Keirce 1:21:37

My son-in-law collects Pokémon cards. They’re still pretty big, pretty expensive,

Olya Konell 1:21:41

tangible.

Debra Keirce 1:21:44

Yeah, they’re tangible, but, but the are there even NFT galleries? I’ve never seen one. Are there like online places you can go to see NFT art?

Olya Konell 1:21:52

Yeah, there’s sites

Angela Agosto 1:21:54

that haven’t heard of any recently.

Olya Konell 1:21:56

Well, the sites that people use to sell their NFTs through that turn them into a non-fungible token, kind of a thing, like I.. I don’t.. I don’t know which ones are the most popular ones at this moment, but for a while, when it first started out, it was like the hot thing, but you don’t even hear about it anymore, and I follow people in finances, you know, you know, etc. so

Debra Keirce 1:22:22

there was

Angela Agosto 1:22:23

some pop-up ones that were coming here into town, but it’s been a few, because we were always getting notified. It’s been a few years since we, since we’ve even heard about it. So, I don’t know if that’s that big anymore, but yeah, they were like those digital traveling galleries.

Olya Konell 1:22:34

Yeah, and as far as if it’s a viable option, kind of what this whole, this whole talk started out from it’s like it’s a, there’s lots of ways that artists can make money. It’s a viable option if it’s something that you do and it’s something that you are willing to do, and that’s, you know, it’s there in the art space. I mean, there’s lots of different things that could be viable, like it’s a hard question to answer, because only you can answer that for yourself, but the best thing to do is to go learn about what it is, because no one can tell you, no one can answer that, because you do have to have a certain level of technical skill, you do have to, you know, as far as like being able to do things on a computer, we’ve had people ask that don’t even know how to use social media, and now they’re going to be challenging themselves to push more buttons. I’m just being direct here. I’m like, is this? Are you sure you, you know, if you really want to tackle this and you’re struggling using a computer, start with using the computer first, or your smartphone, and then work your way up to getting involved in more complicated tech stuff, does that make sense? But some people, they naturally gravitate towards that, they’re really good with all of the tech stuff, they’re like, yeah, this isn’t my thing, I, you know, and they’ll jump into it. So, is it viable? Only you can answer that question. No, the

Debra Keirce 1:23:56

websites that people would go if they wanted to learn about this. Do you know? Oh, yeah.

Olya Konell 1:24:02

Yeah, there. You know, I would probably just go. My, I’ve graduated from YouTube University, so in Google. So, if I have a question, I go in and I just type the question into YouTube, and then somebody smarter than me has guaranteed made some videos about it, and then I picked the ones that have had the most views that are within the last 12 months, and that’s usually what I..

Debra Keirce 1:24:26

that’s how our son learned how to do car repairs, and now he changes my brakes. I love it.

Olya Konell 1:24:32

Yeah,

Angela Agosto 1:24:33

yep, that’s what my husband does, our IRAC now. We save 1000s there, but you know what? I just looked at that artist just to see if they’re still doing it, and I see she doesn’t have anything on it on her site anymore, and she even took down the videos that she shared before, so

Olya Konell 1:24:46

yeah,

Angela Agosto 1:24:47

and she had taken a lot of time and studied it, and you know, was really big into it, and I did just,

Olya Konell 1:24:53

yeah, yeah, so yeah, if anybody emails you about it, ignore if it’s something that you. Personally, I want to get into, you know, learn about it first before you decide if it’s viable. So cool

Debra Keirce 1:25:06

that we have all these new options to explore, though.

Olya Konell 1:25:08

That is very cool. Exactly. Yeah, I think that’s amazing. The opportunities have never been better. The competition has never been better, but tenacity, consistency, last one standing always wins, and, and I remember my husband told me that before I started. He was like, you know, are you going to be a doer or a donor? The donors are going to, you know, it was from, it was from a movie, it was no pain, or I don’t remember what movie it was, but it was some comedy, and he’s like, a year for a year, he kept asking me, you can be a doer or a donor, because I kept having excuses for different things, and then finally, like, it led up to me quitting my nine to five and diving full into what I was, you know, going to do. So it’s like, yeah, it’s..

Angela Agosto 1:25:58

I have a quote that I always tell my kids, since they were younger. It’s Walt Disney. I’m a big Walt Disney fan from Lompess when he used to do his cartoon and sketches. He’s quote “Keep moving forward, opening new doors and doing new things, because we’re curious and curiosity keeps us leading down new paths.” I tell my girls, I said, you always just have to keep learning, keep moving forward, you know. And it’s okay to look back if you’re going to learn from it. Otherwise, just, you know, forward forward is the way to go.

Olya Konell 1:26:22

I love that.

Debra Keirce 1:26:24

Look, how positive you all are. I love this conversation, like nobody’s brought up anything. That was what I was nervous about, is you know, the negative stuff can sometimes overwhelm the conversations, and not in this case. So, that’s

Olya Konell 1:26:34

no, no, I, yeah, no, nope, yeah. I’m on a health journey, by the way, so that’s only positive for me. That’s,

Angela Agosto 1:26:44

I’ve always been an optimist, and I kind of still, still, still am like that.

Olya Konell 1:26:49

Yeah, there, yeah, it’s there’s a brain psychologist. I watched a podcast, and he says he always asks himself before he goes to bed not what he’s grateful for, but one thing that went well, and that could be as simple as my coffee was really good this morning, it could be something you know, or it could be lots of things that that that went well, and it’s interesting because if we do that consistently over time, we wire our brains, and the reason why I’m so, I’m no expert in brain things, I’m just curious, like Angela, you know, curiosity and curiosity, like you just Google answers to things, and you like, oh, that’s a fun fact,

Angela Agosto 1:27:31

yeah. When I’m watching stuff, I’m like, what does this mean? How did they do that? I’ll go and Google it.

Debra Keirce 1:27:38

Curiosity can be good, I agree, but it also killed the cat, and I’m very cat-like at

Angela Agosto 1:27:43

That was in my head. I’m like, don’t say that one, but yeah, I love this. This one, you know, just because I think it.. I have a Walt Disney quote book, and he said failure is what always made him move forward, and that’s why he became.. he said, if I would have stopped with when he lost Oswald, you know, with he lost the copyrights to his own character. He said, then I never would have had any of this, like movies, and, and at the time, just Disneyland and stuff. It was because he fell and got back up, and he said, that’s if I’m not failing, then I’m not doing,

Olya Konell 1:28:15

you’re not moving forward. I love that. You’re not growing. Yeah, and

Debra Keirce 1:28:19

I feel like it’s so important to share all this stuff, which is why I love these webinars and these forums and everything. It, my kids were laughing at me. A tragic thing that happened, we’re noticing on YouTube yesterday they had this thing where a woman pulled into a parking space and got out of her car in New York, and she fell into a man hole was open and died, and so they were looking at it on the camera coverage, or whatever, and apparently a large truck had gone over that manhole, and it dislodged the manhole 12 minutes before she parked her car, and then just got out. It was probably dark, I don’t know, and you know, just stepped into the hole, and I’m like, this is me, I would step into the hole and be gone, like this is this is exactly this mr. Magoo stuff. This is what I do in life, right? And so my kids, my, you know, my kids were like, well, now you know, look before you step when you get out of your car, and you better believe it every time now. I, because they shared that, I’m like, thank you, thank you.

Angela Agosto 1:29:22

Now I will be looking for the help manhole, because you share that. Now I’m going to, because if anything’s gonna go wrong, it always happens to me. Oh my gosh, I didn’t know they’re like you. How did you not know that you’ve been accident-prone your whole life? I’m like, what. So yeah, I’m like extra careful now, but and now I’m gonna watch where I stop.

Olya Konell 1:29:40

Yeah,

Debra Keirce 1:29:41

that legit just happened in New York City yesterday,

Olya Konell 1:29:45

you know. And going back to the reticular activating system, I’m going to counter that with this last thing. So, why I went down this is, I used to be, what’s what’s what’s that Murphy’s Law, like if it could happen, it will, it will happen, or whatever. Where I used to say that about myself all the time, and I was the most accident-prone person my entire.. it started with me just being clumsy, being told I was accident prone. I took that in, and that became a part of my personality and identity, and I was.. I was just that. And what’s crazy is, I don’t remember where, but I decided to test a theory, and I started saying I’m a ninja. I will catch things before they fall. I will, you know, and I started like, like, no, I’m going to, because I did catch something once, like it fell, and I caught it before it hit the ground, and I didn’t even think about it. I’m like, no, no, no, I’m going to be a ninja from now on. The irony that I, I, I became a freakin ninja, and now my husband, like, he’s like, ‘Do you do that with a knife? I’m like, ‘No, I step back if I drop a knife, I don’t try to catch it. Yeah, but you know, all being accident prone, and this and that, it.. I stopped being that. So, there’s something to that. There is something powerful,

Debra Keirce 1:31:03

Angela. We are ninjas,

Angela Agosto 1:31:06

Yes, and they didn’t tell me that until I was older. I wasn’t just till a few years ago that my family, my husband and I was like, ‘What? I didn’t know that.’ So yeah, I’m now.. I do make it a point to improve things, and I’m more careful.

Olya Konell 1:31:19

yeah, it really is, because the subconscious part of our brain acts before we’ve had a time to process, like it, like we’re just stepping out of the way, or if there’s a manhole, you’ll just kind of jump over, and you know, you’ll anyways, we’ve gone down some tangents, you guys. Thank you so much for holding on, I just, Gail says, “Thank you. This was very enlightening. Great discussion today from Karen. Thank you all so much. And Oren says, “A great friend of mine, who is a pianist, told me a secret to success was that eventually everyone else quit, and he didn’t. I love that. Yeah, thank you so much. I’ve learned a lot, says Monica. I have to go, so I’ll share any, any feedback anyone wants to share with Debra. Go ahead and just throw it in the chat, right? Right now, I’ll give you guys just a few more seconds as we wave our goodbyes. Feel free to reply to your webinar emails and let me know if you have any thoughts, and I’ll pass them on, and feel free to engage with the article when it goes out, and Deborah, thank you so much. Yeah,

Angela Agosto 1:32:23

Yeah, thank you Debra. On our next session will be with TimothyTyler, and then also for our FASO member webinars, it’ll be June 4th.

Olya Konell 1:32:33

yeah, that’s for just for FASO members,

Olya Konell 1:32:35

Thank you, thank you, and I hope you have a wonderful, creative rest of your day.

Angela Agosto 1:32:40

Thank you, Debra. Bye, bye.

Debra Keirce 1:32:42

Thank you, guys.

Olya Konell 1:32:43

Oh, where’s my end button? Oh, sorry.

Angela Agosto 1:32:46

The little red person walking out the door, it says leave

Olya Konell 1:32:49

end and okay,

Angela Agosto 1:32:50

red door, on the right bottom corner

Olya Konell 1:32:52

Bye.

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We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

Guided Missiles, Misguided Men: When Knowledge Outruns the Soul

In the Soviet film Silence of Doctor Evans (1974), the protagonist – a doctor – is saved by aliens from a distant planet after a plane crash. They are benevolent, highly intelligent, and possess extraordinary knowledge and abilities that allow them to live as long as they wish.

Doctor Evans asks: “Can you share your secret with us? You can’t imagine how many people on earth would be eternally grateful.”

The woman replies: “There are some secrets humans cannot touch until they reach a certain level of moral maturity. Do you think your civilization has matured enough to handle any secret of the universe?”

Evans is stunned and, after a pause, answers honestly: “No.”

Our civilization tends to treat knowledge as an unquestioned good. And it is good –
but not without questions. It is only good when the one possessing it is morally ready. When knowledge ends up in immature hands, it turns to its opposite – ignorance.

We don’t teach three-year-olds to light matches. It’s a kind of knowledge they are not yet ready for. The fact that we keep matches away from them doesn’t mean that knowledge is bad, or that they are bad – only that the timing is bad.

In the Book of Enoch, the fallen angels, the Watchers, descend on earth to teach humans forbidden arts. Many of those arts appear innocent – like mirrors or metallurgy, for example. Their devilish plan is to teach humans those arts prematurely.

When knowledge is given to those who are not ready for it, it becomes a temptation.

God did not forbid Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because knowledge was inherently bad, or because He was withholding something from them, but because they were not yet ready for it.

He knew that, if they grasped it prematurely, they would be led astray. That is exactly what happened – and what continues to happen to this day. In immature hands, knowledge turns into ignorance and leads to self-destruction.

As Martin Luther King Jr. said:

“Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.”

Humans are sorely tempted by knowledge because we believe it will help us become like gods. We imagine we can build a tower to the heavens and ascend on our own – that we can become immortal and all-powerful. Yet every human attempt to storm heaven ends in ruins.

Knowledge is a paradox: when we grasp at it, it turns into its opposite – ignorance. When we receive it as a gift, it becomes a blessing.

The mark of moral maturity is the ability to wait for knowledge to be revealed in good time. True knowledge comes of itself to those who do not grasp for it. It is the fruit of relationship.

True knowledge never comes by seizing. Just as my knowledge of my wife and children is revealed to me within our relationship, so our knowledge of the world unfolds as we encounter its wonders.

As Rumi said, “Sell cleverness and buy bewilderment.”

When we seize knowledge, we reap self-destruction. When we are bewildered enough to wait for its revelation, we live in wonder and joy.

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PS — Editors note — Eugene’s essay illustrates why art matters so much in an age obsessed with information. Art does not merely give us data, techniques, or utility. Great art restores wonder. It slows the grasping mind long enough for us to actually encounter the truth of reality again. A civilization drowning in knowledge but starving for wisdom does not primarily need more cleverness. It needs deeper seeing. It needs art.

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Today’s Newsletter is Brought to You by FASO.

This piece originally appeared on my personal Substack, Clinsights, here. It has been edited and improved for publication in The FASO Way.

Editor’s Note: In two days, this post will be locked and is available only to paid members because we don’t want this duplicate content on the open web in a way that might draw traffic away from the original post. You can always read the entire post here.

If you wish to comment on this piece, we are accepting comments on the original post here.

The Truth that Sets You Free is Not Information

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

As a creative, when you uncover Truth, you will connect with the light of virtue—the creative energy of God. And your deeds; your works; your artworks; will be manifested into physical creations infused with this universal creativity. As the epigraph verse says, they will be “made manifest” and “wrought in God.”

So, if we follow wonder when we feel it, we thus allow enthusiasm—the filling up with God—to enrich our soul again.

This takes courage.

The word courage derives from the French word for heart: cour. To find one’s cour-age is to be heart-led. To enter into courage is to enter your “heart-led age.” This courageous opening up allows the light, the life, the logos—into our heart. To fully understand this, we need to first understand more deeply what the word heart truly implies.

The central claim of The Sovereign Artist is that Art is a true spiritual path to liberation. And the true path that all mystery traditions have discovered always requires an opening of the heart. Not the physical heart, the spiritual heart — the Kardia.

In ancient Greek (especially in the New Testament), the Kardia refers to far more than the physical organ. It refers to the inner center of an integrated person: the True Self; the seat of Divine Desire; the source of will; the place of perception; the conscience. The Kardia refers to the source where the aletheia—the unveiling—occurs.

The aletheia, a word that literally means “unveiling” is famously used in the following verse:

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. —John 8:32

The word truth in that verse is, in the Greek, aletheia. A better translation might say, “The unveiling will set you free.”

This Truth is not information. The Truth that sets you free—the aletheia—is the unveiling of knowing. Knowing is gnosis. And gnosis arises from a direct, mystical experience of The Mystery.

Gnosis is not intellectual information. The verse does not say that you will read the truth. It does not say you will be told the truth. It says you will know the truth. It says that it is the unveiling of knowing that sets you free. This knowing isn’t something you can receive in language. It is bigger than that. It is a deeper truth that lies beyond language. Language can merely point the way. This beyond-language-knowing is the same word—gnosis—that Christ used in another verse when he said to His disciples, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.”

This type of knowing is felt more like inner music than words. When listening to a symphony, you simply know whether something sounds harmonious (good) or discordant (bad). You don’t have to read music to know, you just know. Similarly, when deep truth is unveiled, you “hear” it, and it is harmonious. In the light of this knowing, false things start to “sound” discordant.

Of course, one could argue that this is yet another scriptural interpretation to add to the endless arguments. Except…except…I knew this Truth long before I connected it with this scripture; long before I even cared about any scripture. And, it’s not just me. When I talk to others who have experienced the unveiling...they too know. There is a whole history of people who know.

I can’t, of course, prove that I know; for I can only share with others by utilizing language…and, again, the Truth is beyond language. But those who know can usually tell who else has experienced the Aletheia.

This knowledge isn’t special. We all have the gnosis. We all know. Deep down, you already know. You may just need to remember; to “lift the veil.”—the Aletheia.

Sometimes, as we approach the Aletheia, we experience fear, especially if it contradicts our existing beliefs. This is why accessing this knowing requires courage.

And it is this courageous unveiling that happens in The Kardia—the heart.

The Kardia, as we said, is the seat of the True Self that perceives the divine order; that perceives The Mystery. The artist whose inner life, in the heart, is genuinely aligned with The Mystery unveils a specific intuitive knowing that the person creating based on mere intellectual information does not (yet) see. Fortunately, the creative act itself, when approached in the right way, facilitates the unveiling of the Aletheia, and the opening of the Kardia.

Thus, those who unveil this Truth in the Kardia will find the cour-age—courage—to follow the divine call of wonder and will enter a heart-led age. And in that heart-led age they will find that new pathways quickly open to them. That is why we are enjoined to seek first the Kingdom; for once we do, once we begin to walk our true path, then the Kingdom unveils opportunities, and our works—our artworks—begin to be “made manifest” because they are now “wrought in God.”

As you start to walk, the way appears

—Rumi

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PS - This piece is new material that I’m adding to my forthcoming book, The Sovereign Artist. If that is of interest to you, please click here to join the waitlist.

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For today’s episode we sat down with Alyse Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of live painting at music festivals where she learned to paint intuitively “with the music.” She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, art college, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full-time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full-time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking, since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people, and learning basic marketing because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible artists often do well. Alyse also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors (e.g., newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards) and reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually, through small, steady steps rather than a single “big break.” Finally, Alyse tells us about her upcoming group show “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty” at Threyda Gallery in Denver, opening May 1, 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website.

Alyse’s FASO Site:
alyserussell.com/

Alyse’s Social Media:
instagram.com/alysefireflyart
facebook.com/AlyseFireflyArt/

Threyda Gallery “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty”
threyda.com/pages/gallery

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Transcript:

Alyse Russell: 0:00

If you consistently put yourself out there, are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice. I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s it’s about perseverance. If you can have all the skill skill in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re going to sell any of them.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:18

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a gold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Elise Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of life painting at music festivals, where she learned to paint intuitively with the music. She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, Art College, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking Since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people and learning basic marketing, because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible, artists often do well. Elise also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors through newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards, and also reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually through small, steady steps rather than a single big break. Finally, Elise tells us about her upcoming group show, Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty at three to Gallery in Denver, opening may 1 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website. Welcome Elise to The FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Alyse Russell: 2:18

I’m good. I’m good. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Laura Arango Baier: 2:22

I’m good. I’m excited to have you, because I think your work is so beautiful. I love the blending of the surreal and the figurative, especially figurative because I am also a figurative artist, and I love seeing how other artists express all of the different ways that we can celebrate the human body and make it interesting and beautiful and decorative. So I am excited to chat with you, also because you recently won the BoldBrush contest, and that’s actually how I saw your work, and was like, Oh my gosh, I got to interview her. So I’m happy to have you. So thank you for being here, and also thank you for being here with a very pained voice. So if you need to take little breaks, you can

Alyse Russell: 3:06

appreciate it,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:08

of course. And then before we dive into your actual work, your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Alyse Russell: 3:18

Well, I both times figurative artists. I actually recently dove back into painting full time, but it’s been a part of my life for a long time now, and I enjoy working on studio and all different types of settings, live, painting, traveling. I love traveling and music, and that’s pretty that’s pretty much all I have time for in my life this point. So, you know, not, not much else, not much else to me. I have three dogs that I love. And yes, that’s, that’s what encompasses most of my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Awesome, yeah. And I really love the live music aspect, because you’d mentioned to me, actually, that that inadvertently led you into becoming a full time artist, which I am so curious to hear about that. But also, like, did your path to becoming an artist start before that? Or, how did that get going for you?

Alyse Russell: 4:28

Um, it did. Yeah, I went to, I mean, I’ve always been, like, creatively inclined, like my whole ever since I, you know, as a small child, I think, and so I then I went to, like a magnet Art High School, and that’s where I have started learning more technique. It was very much just into the fun fundamentals, both realism and like design or design oriented. Said classes. And that’s where I first started oil painting. We had like a figure day and a still life day. And I was always really drawn to the painting. The figure from, from, really from, from that point. It was a little bit, I think it got a little bit tiring just because of, you know, being in school and having it be repetitive and, like, demanding. But I always enjoyed, enjoyed the figurative classes, that’s pretty much what started my my interest in realism and painting and then, but I didn’t really see myself as just becoming a painter. I figured that I would go into, like, a art adjacent type of field that be a little more stable, like, I don’t know what I hadn’t really gotten that far yet in my but maybe something in, like, fashion design, or something like, I considered maybe like art therapist, you know. So something related, but that has a more defined, like, career trajectory, yeah. And then I I actually had had left. I did go to F where art college, and I left there my senior year. I had some family, and my mom was sick at the time, so I come home, and I was, you know, working a part time job, and I started meeting some people who were doing live painting at, like, small music and arts events in Baltimore and I, I had shared some of my work with them, and they invited me to paint, which is, is very fun. It’s very different from a studio practice. So takes some getting used to, especially because, like everyone, at least at the time that I was painting with painted in acrylics, which is much more manageable when you’re painting in a in a venue live. But I I don’t like acrylics. I’ve actually gotten a little more into them in recent years, just as, like, a sort of under painting kind of basis, um, but at the time, I was like, No, I hate this plastic paint, and I don’t, I want to bring oil to all the events, which I did. So that was a little bit of a learning curve to be able to, you know, cleaning up is kind of a mess, like when you don’t have an art studio and everything. But yeah, it was, it was very fun. And it was, there’s something about like I would paint a little bit more intuitively. I’m sort of going with the music, so to say, and I would like, I would have a figure reference, right, like, to kind of be the main focal point of the painting, and then for the rest of the painting, I would kind of intuitively add more surreal effects, or, like, floral that kind of thing, into the work. And that’s kind of how my my voice developed, as far as, like, what I’d like to paint, and, yeah, you just kind of evolve from there. I yeah, I started doing more, more live painting. And it’s something where, like, at parts with the small, smaller events. It’s something where you might just, just be live painting, or you might have, you know, prints for sale, like, just, like paper prints for sale, something like that. And then from there that went to painting at larger but not huge festivals. I don’t do any of the like, really large ones, but bigger festivals, which would have, like a whole gallery set up, and then the live painting as well. So which, yeah, it’s super fun, and I still love to do. I don’t do as as many anymore as I used to, but I still at least do a couple festivals a year. And, yeah, I still love it. It’s, it’s. Tiring, and it’s a lot to kind of paint in that environment, but it’s very fun, and I think you do get some you have to kind of think quickly, or you won’t be putting a painting together. So it’s it’s a good place to kind of branch out and have more intuitive work and maybe surprise yourself a little bit with what you would want to put in a painting. Yeah, and I do like, I do a little like for the long for the festivals, it would be like three to three days of painting. So I do plan a little bit for the for the painting, but I don’t plan like every detail like I would maybe a longer studio piece. So it can be kind of fun that way. And just being inspired by the other live painters and the music and just the different setting and like the, you know, it’s definitely brings its own vibe to the painting. And, you know, it’s is visually inspiring, and, you know, musically inspiring. And I think that does kind of come across in the in the work, or influence the work, which is, yeah, very enjoyable, I think, and something that a lot, not everyone, has gotten to experience, painting that way,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:32

yeah. I mean, just hearing about it, I feel a little bit stressed.

Alyse Russell: 11:38

It can be, oh my gosh, I will tell you, is a little bit of a side tangent. But the last year, I painted at Mountain Music Festival in West Virginia, and I was actually starting out with an acrylic under painting, which I’ve started doing now at festivals, just to make with the dry times and everything, just so I can get something down wet into wet paint the entire time. And I was asked, or they had given, a lot of the artists an opportunity to paint with one of the bands on stage. So that was very fun. I painted for a bluegrass band called Shadow grass, and I was on stage with them, like, not directly with them, but there was, like, a portion of the stage that they had kind of curtains off so that you were away from the band’s stuff. And you know, it, it was, it was kind of last minute, like, I didn’t know, going into this festival that I was going to be at this, and I was painting it acrylics that I was, I You couldn’t, you know, bring oil onto the stage for like, safety reasons with the turpentine, like, you know, that kind of stuff. So I had to, like, I didn’t have a lot of paint. That was, like, I had only brought, like, I think I was just doing under, under painting and like, a kind of terror about that sort of color. I don’t think it was called, like, whatever the acrylic paints called, I don’t know, but it was like, it was like, a terror about the color, and that’s all I had brought. So basically, get gather a bunch of paint from other people so that I could have a, you know, a palette to continue the painting up there. And it was live, and there was, you know, a whole audience watching me. It was very stressful. It was very stressful. It was very fun, though. And I, you know, I don’t think I’ve ever painted that quickly in my entire life, because it was like everyone is whole audience staring at me, and I’m, like, trying to make it look like fun for everyone, like I’m doing something, and I’m not just, you know how painting is, like, a lot of the time you’re really just like, staring at your painting. So very entertaining for people, I don’t think so. I was trying to, like, really be expressive and, like, to, you know, painting the whole time, and I got the entire figure blocked in, like, I think it was like a, it was even, I think it was a 24 by 30. Actually, it’s a piece that I, I started. I started this piece at Mountain Music Festival last year. It’s actually going in this upcoming show that I have as well. So, so yeah, so that’s a fun coincidence. But yeah, it sorry. So side tangent, but talking about a big, stressful live painting that was about the most high stress situation. It was very fun, but it was definitely like I felt like a lot of pressure,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:58

for sure, for sure. Sure, which you know two things about that one, I bet you know, to some extent it’s like, you probably don’t get that much, you know, people looking at you the entire time when you’re normally, you know, working on in your stall, like on your paintings at the music festivals. But also I feel like, uh, probably your experience at magnet school may have, uh, prepared you pretty well, because I know that this, I mean, I also went to a magnet school, so I know that it’s extremely stressful and, like, demanding high it’s like the amount of criticism and judgment and workload is insane, so it must be nice to at least channel it in a happier location.

Alyse Russell: 15:46

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, I think it said. I think that did prepare me for and just the gradual that, and like, getting ready for gallery shows and different things, like, there’s other high stress situations definitely helped prepare me for that. And it’s also, it’s like, once I was up there, there wasn’t anything I could do about it. So then I then I pretty much was just enjoying myself once I got kind of into it, you know? But, yeah, I would stop to like, you know, you naturally stop when you’re painting to like, just like, observe your painting and see what your corrections you need to make, or, you know, whatever. And I would, every time I would stop, I’d be like, Oh no, I need to paint more, because there’s all these people watching me, you know. And it was, it was, it was very fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:43

That’s really awesome too, because, you know, like you mentioned before, there’s a certain level of intuitive painting that has to happen. Since you’re on the spot, you’re being watched, and it’s, of course, you can’t, like you said, you plant some but then you also have all the unexpected things, like how that happened, where you’re suddenly in front of everybody, or just like, I bet, also, because I did want to ask you about, you know, what your greatest inspiration and influence is, I’m assuming also, you know, to some extent, like the music itself also inspires you to move in a particular color range with your work or in a particular emotion, right?

Alyse Russell: 17:26

Yes, I guess they think so. It definitely has a has a big influence. I think it’s more subconscious. Like, I don’t put a lot of real thought into like, Oh, I’m hearing it, or I’m seeing that. It’s kind of just a subconscious like process. I think that it’s definitely made my paintings more colorful. Um, I think it’s a very colorful environment, so I think that that has was definitely way that it influenced my work. I Yeah, and then just, it’s kind of a, you know, just the the feeling, like the emotional tone of the festival, I think is a big, big influence. Um, yeah. I otherwise, like I, you know, it’s funny, I don’t listen to music a lot when I paint anymore in the studio sometimes, but I don’t know, I usually just have some random background noise on so that I don’t get like. I’ll either get like too hyper, focused, or what I’m doing forget to eat, or, you know, stuff like that, or I or I’m like, I’ll stop because there’s no background noise. So I just have like a TV on, or something like, I won’t be paying attention to it, but I just have like, something on in the background. And, yeah, as far as other artists influence, um, I don’t know. I think you know, of course, like any of the greats and like real, you know, John Singer, Sergeant, they call the normal things that everyone says, I guess, um, then I do love some oh my gosh, that’s his name. Of course, it’s like, I can never think of anyone’s names when I want that, even if I’m very familiar. I

Laura Arango Baier: 19:33

really

Alyse Russell: 19:37

Oh my gosh. Him is Oh. It’ll come back to me. It’ll come back to me later. Why my brain does that? But it’s just like, I don’t know.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:51

Yeah. Like you get asked, and suddenly you forget. It happens to me too. I swear I know things. Yeah. Know who I’m talking about. It’ll come back. So no worries, when you remember, you can you can mention it

Alyse Russell: 20:06

got you, yeah, it’ll when I stop trying to think of

Laura Arango Baier: 20:09

it Exactly, that’s exactly how it works. But yeah, yeah, I think a lot of those old masters, and you know, the more recent masters, are also really great influences, especially for figurative and realistic work. And then I wanted to ask you as well, when you get an idea, you know, where does it begin? Does it start with, like an image or a feeling? How does, how does a piece start for you? And then, what is that process like?

Alyse Russell: 20:43

Um, I think there’s two kinds of ways, usually like, depending on if I am shooting all my own reference photos or not. Because I don’t always, like, I would love to have time and everything to to shoot everything myself, as far as the figure reference. Um, but when I don’t, especially when I’m a lot of times when I’m live painting, or when I’m doing, like, these quick things, I don’t have time to, like, prepare all of that beforehand. So I will use pose space, and I’ll just, so basically, I’ll think of, like, you know, it’s going to be a figurative work. So I will kind of look through and until I find a pose that just like, strikes something with me. Like, Oh, that’s really that makes me feel something like, that’s a really nice pose. And then, usually when I work that way, I’ll be a little bit more intuitive, and I will just kind of have like, like, compose something with the central figure where I want it, and then I’ll kind of let the rest sort of just intuitively come into the painting, yeah, and I do end up making changes sometimes that way, because I’m like, Oh no, I didn’t like that. Let me Yeah. Like, I think the painting, oh, my God, wait, break in the clouds, the one I with, the that I wanted a brush with, I think, with that one, I originally had more Laurel in the background, and it just wasn’t working for me. So I changed all of that and changed color scheme. And yeah, I just, I’ll just let myself make like, I think you can’t be afraid to change your painting, or you never will get you know where you want to go, especially long term with your voice and how you want to paint. So yeah, like stuff like that will happen when I when I plan my own, like, this big thing behind me, basically, this is a friend of mine who models and did a shoot with her and I, so it’s going to be kind of a under, underwater, underwater, and not underwater scene, if that makes any sense. Was like, I got a sky, but it’s got like a like fish and coral and everything going on there. And for that, what I did was I I had my motto, and I bought a bunch of flowers that were, like coral colored, and I kind of arranged those around her, and then I had a tapestry in the back that was like a night sky. So I just had a suggestion of, like, you know, what the color scheme and painting was going to look like. So that’s a little more how worked for my larger. For my larger, more like studio work. And for those I think, I don’t know, I think it’s more of, yeah, an idea just kind of like a suggestion about an idea just coming to me, and then I just kind of develop it. If you’ve

Laura Arango Baier: 24:15

been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May, with our special guest, Debra Keirce, you can find us, sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently. In desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The FASO Podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, and I, again, I love how colorful it is, because I think it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s it’s very easy to be afraid of color, if that makes sense, but it’s really clear that you know, you have this way of using it and applying it in a way that shows through really well. I think, the way that you you compose your colors and the way that they work together in a piece, you’re welcome, and it just transmits so much joy also, which is why I really love looking at your work, because it’s just like, Ah, yes, this, this makes sense. It’s it’s happy, it’s beautiful, it’s well composed, like color wise composition, like figurative composition, it’s really great.

Alyse Russell: 27:24

You’re welcome.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you too, because since you’ve been doing this full time for some time, have you noticed that your process has evolved in a particular way since you’ve been like, working more and more full time.

Alyse Russell: 27:41

Yes, I think I’m still a little bit all over the place right now. It’s just because I did take a period of time off from painting full time, just I had some family health issues going on, and I just didn’t I felt like I needed to, like art takes a lot of focus and energy, and I felt like I needed to just take a step back to prioritize other things. So, you know, but before that, when I really was working very much full time, I I adjusted to having a very regular schedule, and I think that helped a lot, like, I would hate pretty much nine to five, five days a week, just, you know, get up in the morning. I had a home studio, but I actually this is funny, I think. But I I like to feel like I was, like, leaving the house for work. So I actually my studio is the front room of my house, and there was the side door. So I actually put my couch in front of the door into my studio. So I had to go around my house and unlock the front door to get into my studio, and it just made me feel like I was having to get up and go to work, and not just like walking into the other room, but that helped me keep focused. And I think, yeah, like having a full time practice, having a regulated schedule, really helped my work improve, because the tendency to overextend myself painting, like you get really into your painting, and you’re like, oh, I can. I’ll just paint another couple hours. It’s fine, you know. And you like, haven’t eaten dinner, and you’re like, kitchens a mess, and you’re, you know, so, and what would end up happening is, I paint so much, but then then you’re, you’re not really making up any time, because then you get, like, burnt out, putting in long hours, you know? So I just, yeah, really. I made myself keep a consistent schedule as just regular studio practice hours, and that really helped help improve my my paintings and how I worked, because I was giving myself rest. And I think that I improve faster with it’s like you have time to absorb what you’re learning from your paintings, when you have time to just process and not be actively working. So I think that was important, and that did just make things more regular. I think I actually produced more work that way. And was, you know, just able to be more consistent and have better work?

Laura Arango Baier: 30:47

Yeah, yeah, those are that’s an excellent point, because I think there’s many artists out there, including myself and maybe some of our listeners, who have probably painted into the very wee hours of six in the morning from the previous day, and then it takes a few days to, like, properly recover from that, so suddenly it’s like, all these hours you put in, you could have just, like, put them in in a different way, where you weren’t putting your health, like, in a whirlwind of mess. So I totally relate, I think, and I totally agree there’s it’s so important to be consistent and to have that compartmentalization, right? Like, how you were saying having your studio separate, or, like, feeling like it’s a separate space that you’re stepping into. Because I think it’s also happened to me where it’s like, oh, it’s not room over there. I’m just gonna, like, I just walk in, but there’s no real sense of I’m walking into my workplace now. And I think that’s something else that maybe some of us struggle with. So it’s a great point as well. And then I wonder, yes, oh, yeah,

Alyse Russell: 31:56

oh, sorry. I was just gonna say that that’s, you know, having taken time off and going, like, that’s what I’m actually trying to take my own advice right now and get back to that. Because I, I was nervous. I had a little bit of imposter syndrome coming. So I was like, am I a full time I’m not a full time artist anymore. Am I a professional artist? Like, I don’t know, you know. So I, I start. I took a lot when I made the decision, this is only back in December of last year, so I really only been painting full time again, quote, unquote, since January of this year. And I was very nervous about it, because I, yeah, I had that little bit of imposter syndrome. And it was very affirming when the when the BoldBrush, just that movie works. I was like, Oh no, I’m good. I’m good. Like, I’m I’m a professional. I can do this, you know. And, and then I picked up a gallery that I had worked with reached out to me right after that. So I was like, okay, like, oh, it’s like a big relief off of me to like, okay, I can start. I can build this back up again. And so, yeah, now I’m working on, I took a big workload just trying to get myself back in the door. But now I’m working on trying to regulate my schedule back to how it was and have more consistent same hours. Yeah, it could be a lot. And of course, like having the consistent hours always does go out the window a little bit. I think when you have, like, a big deadline or something, because what are you going to do? You know?

Alyse Russell: 33:37

Yeah, I think it’s important that I’m working on getting back to that,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:42

yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, catching you in this very particular window of time is also very interesting, because I think it is also it happens. And it will happen to every artist, really you have this period of time or like, work, work, work, work, work, and then life happens, right? And you have to step away for a little while. For some people might be having kids, for some people might be an accident. So I think it’s what you’re going through now, is literally, like, Ah, of course, you know, like being able to have, like, a reliable way to step back into the studio, like having that consistency again, having, you know the support system for yourself, because it can be really hard as a self employed person, like, no one’s telling you what to do. No one’s telling you what time to show up, right? Like being a good boss with yourself without being a mean boss. Like, no, no, you’re only working this hour to this hour, right? For example, I think catching you in this time is is really great, because it’s an interesting transitional phase, right? Because you went full time and then took a pause and now back to full time. So I think it’s Yeah, I think it’s a testament too, because I’ve also been a bit of a hiatus, and hearing you say, Oh, well, I. Was able to get back into it, and I’m still alive, and it’s going well, it’s like, oh, that kind of, you know, makes me feel like, Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, you’re consistent. And you tell yourself, I can do this and I can go back into the studio, and even if I’m not painting, I’m still an artist, which I think is another thing that many of us struggle with. It’s like, How can I be an artist if I don’t paint? I think it’s good to hear that it is okay to take a break, and it is okay to get back into it, and to feel a little funny about it at first, but to just keep going. You know,

Alyse Russell: 35:33

yeah, for sure, I It’s definitely been I didn’t imagine that it was gonna go jinx myself right? Like, you know, but it went, it went a lot quicker than I imagined. I was like, I don’t see it almost a little overwhelming, because I was like, Oh yeah, it is okay, you know. But I’m, I’m very grateful. Like, I could not be more grateful at how, how smoothly it’s gone so far, and especially because I was nervous, you know? And, yeah, just, I’m grateful for all my recent opportunities and this opportunity, and I’m super happy to be painting again full time, like it’s it’s been, really, I’ve missed that. I, you know, I’m definitely one of those people, like, I need to paint or I’ll be a little bit insane. So it’s been, it’s been very nice, despite a little hectic, but it’s been very nice. And I’m hoping I’ll, yeah, get into a little more easy flow schedule here soon.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:42

Yeah, that’s awesome. Um, and then I wanted to ask you, so the first time you became full time, what? What was the moment where you realize, excuse me, the moment where you realize, oh my gosh, I’m making a living from this. I’m, like, full time. Like, what was that like for you?

Alyse Russell: 37:01

I mean, it’s, it’s a good feeling. I think that when I, like, I probably quit my part time job before I really should have, but, you know, because so there was a little bit of a rough transition the first time around there where was painting full time. But I don’t know if I was super comfortable thinking, though, but that’s okay, but, you know, I got through it. It was very exciting, but it was, it was a lot of it was a lot of stress. I just it’s hard to, unfortunately, have even a part time job and try to be a full time artist, because it’s kind of like there’s only, feels like there’s only time for one or the other, or at least for me, like some people can have, oh, I do this job, and then I do this job, and then I do this, and it’s I, but I’m not that person, you know. So it, I think it went a little I had a period where I kind of said to myself, like, you know what? Because I had been down on myself after just struggling, like, a little bit financially, with only having art as an income. And there was just a moment where I said to myself, like, I, you know, I am art, like plenty of artists make good plenty good money selling art full time. And there’s no reason, because I was kind of thinking like, oh, I should have stayed in school. I should have done this or that, you know, I was like, You know what? Like, I don’t there’s no reason like I was like, I need to just really concentrate, start keeping make sure I have consistent hours. I need to really start paying more attention to marketing. You know, really be smart about the work I’m doing. And not just because a lot of you know, being a painter, you’re just like, you know, you’re like, obsessed, or like, I, you know, I think most people, you’re like, obsessed with your work and and just like, the process of working, and it’s kind of like, I mean, I think for me, it’s something I sort of would have to have to do to some degree. I’m not making any money on it, you know. So I think because I get to a place where I was like, Okay, I have to be smarter about this and and think about the financial aspect more strategically, and really make a commitment to that. And then I think once I did that, it was very free flowing, and it felt really good, you know. And, yeah, things became more consistent. And just over time, like, you kind of think there’s going to be this big break moment, but for me, it’s, it wasn’t like that. It was just like little steps, you know, until I was like, oh, you know what, I’m actually. Uncomfortable, like, I’m good, you know. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:08

awesome, yeah. And I find that, you know, for most people, I think that’s how it is, because I feel like I totally agree with the you think there’s going to be, like, a moment where, like, there’s a windfall of, like, I don’t know, like, a ton of shows or, like, bunch of sales. But I think just focusing on, like, those consistent little steps is so I feel like it is so stabilizing, you know, it’s so like, Okay, this is the solid ground that I can rely on. And if there is, like, a sudden windfall where, like, I sell a bunch of work, that’s awesome. But that’s the hard part about being an artist as well. You know, like, the you’re gonna have, like, times for there’s a lot coming in, and there’s gonna be times when you don’t have too much coming in. So you have to find, you know, all those ways to fill in the gaps, especially now economically, we’re in the craziest time. Yes, but I also wanted to ask you, you know, what is something that you wish you knew when you started out that you now, know,

Alyse Russell: 41:09

um, you know, honestly, I think that would pretty much be it like that, you know, you just have to, there’s not going to be a moment. Or at least for me, there wasn’t where you’re like, Oh, I’ve made it now. Like, it’s very gradual. It kind of happened before I even noticed. I thought to myself, like, one day, like, Oh, I was actually putting, like, a new commission in my calendar. And I was like, Oh, I have six months of commissions right now. Like, books. Like, I don’t like, I, you know what I mean? And I was like, Oh, I like, Oh, I like, do this full time, like, all my money is good, like, I’m, you know, it’s like, so happened so gradually, it’s like I didn’t even notice, like, I didn’t even notice at first that that that’s where I was, you know, I think it would have been helpful at the start of my career to know that, like, it was going to be so gradual, like that. Because it’s not like I was expecting, like, to just blow up overnight or something, but you kind of, I guess I was thinking, like I would get into a really good gallery or something, and then it would be, like, smooth sailing, or like, it would be this kind of moment, but no, just kind of, like, consistency, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:30

nice, yeah, no, it’s, it’s how I think, I think that’s a hard part too, that it is so gradual that for Anyone, like, in early stages of the career, right, where they’re still getting their footing, it almost feels like nothing’s happening, until, you know, you have that moment like you where it’s like, oh, my calendar is full. Like I I’m doing this all day, like I’m I don’t have my job anymore, of course. So this is my job. And I think you know, having that patience as well to, like, settle down and realize, okay, what’s the next project, what’s the next thing, and also putting yourself out there, which actually, this leads me to my next question, which is, how did you find your first collectors, and what have you learned from that process of finding these collectors?

Alyse Russell: 43:21

So my first collector, who’s been one of my biggest supporters, and he he still collects my work. He has, he has a lot of my pieces. Actually, I think he’s pretty much gotten something from every like major show or exhibition or something like that I’ve done. And I met him at one of the first music festivals that I like painted at. I actually have some large original work there, which is a little risky, because it’s now I don’t take the big pieces out to shows anymore. I just bring like chic, like prints, you know. But he, he bought it. Was a four by five foot large painting. And he, he bought that. I think he actually gave me a deposit there. And then, you know, we, you know, exchanged information, and he purchased that after the festival. And that was, yeah, that was a big help. And I think, as far as collectors, I think what’s really important is, you know, it’s buying art is a very like personal, personal thing. And you know, when people purchase your work, it’s, it’s such a good feeling, because they a lot of times feel so emotionally connected to it. And you. For me, sometimes doing a painting is like, it’s like, I just have to get this out of me, this expression. And like, once the painting is done, like I kind of, I’m like, I have, like, a moment, a few moments where, like, a day or two, where I’m like, oh so happy with my piece. And then after that, I’m kind of like, okay, like, I don’t want this anymore. Like, I don’t want to look at this ever again. And so it’s, it’s great to have someone be like, I love this. And it makes me feel, you know, this type of way. It reminds me of this or, you know, and and I want to look at this in my home for the rest of my life, you know, essentially. And like, it’s such a wonderful feeling. And so, yeah, so it’s very, I think, very, very personal having collectors, and especially like repeat collectors, you know, and you know, they’re very invested in you, I think. And so I like to really show that you know that I appreciate that. And I used to be very consistent with, like, my email newsletters again, getting something I’m getting back into again. But I think that’s important for me. I also like to do, I’ll send Christmas cards to all my collectors, and I’ll do like, a little, you know, tiny, like sketch painting that’s like our original sketch, and I’ll sign it and have a little note and send those. And I think things like that, things like that, are important to show you know, how much I appreciate my collectives, and that sometimes I feel like I care more about my work than I do, like whatever you know, like, get this out of here, and that you know that. So it’s just nice to have people feel moved by my work. And, yeah, I think that’s that’s just just maintaining that. So just letting them know that you you appreciate them is important. I think how you maintain and keep keep them coming back to to buy more work, or look at more work, or, you know, any, anything, or just, or, you know, like, I’ve had a I’ve had a few repeats, quite a few repeat, like, commission collectors, too. So I think that’s nice. And I think it’s, yeah, just making it personal, and, you know, letting them know that you appreciate them?

Laura Arango Baier: 47:42

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think the other really cool thing that you mentioned there is, you know, you met one of them at a live music show, right? Like, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned many times, actually, on the podcast, and it always comes up, and that is the importance of physically going out there and talking to people. You know, if someone’s asking about one of your pieces, or if you have, like, a show exhibition, anything your work is there, someone comes up and looks at the painting. Talk to them. You know, like it’s so important to talk to people, because you might, you know, learn something from this person. Maybe they buy something, maybe they don’t. But I think you know, most collectors, and you might attest to this, most collectors, they buy the work, not just because they love it, but because they also got to know the artist and appreciate who the artist is as a person, right? So you know that really highlights the importance of networking, you know, putting yourself out there, talking to people, you know,

Alyse Russell: 48:45

yeah, for sure, yeah, I think that it’s really important. I tried to get to all my show openings, if possible. It’s not always possible. I’m excited to go. I’ve never been to the gallery at the next show I have upcoming. I’ve never been to this gallery, and I’m going, it’s in Denver, and I’m going out, so I’ve never been. I’m excited. I haven’t met any of these people yet because, just because Denver is far from me, but, yeah, very exciting. And, you know, it’s, it’s so much fun to meet everyone and hear, I love to hear people’s perspective on my work, because I like to leave, I mean, I think there are, of course, like meetings in my work, but I like to leave it a little bit open to interpretation, because sometimes I’ll have a collector or or just someone come up and talk to me about my work, and they’ll say something about it that I hadn’t even thought of, but then I’m like, Oh my God, that’s so true. And I was actually going through something like that at the time that I made this painting. And, you know, so it’s so funny that you should mention that, and I never even thought about that, you know. And. So I think that really adds to the work and makes it just more of a, you know, like you think a painting is done, but it’s kind of adds on to that process of the painting and like what the painting is about. And I love hearing what what other people have to say with their interpretations. And I think that people do that’s something that’s big, live painting. A lot of I usually don’t sell the live painting like at the event, because it’s, it’s going to come home with me and get, you know, touched up and signed and varnished and all that. But a lot of the paintings I have sold to someone from the festival, and it being that they came and chatted with me about the painting and what it was about, and how they were interpreting it, and and then, of course, they got to see me. I don’t finish them per se at the festival, but I try to get them, like, locked in in a way that’s everything that’s going to kind of be in the finished painting is in there, and you can tell what’s going on. And, like, maybe the focal point is kind of a little more finished. And so, yeah, people really like to they felt connected to the work that way. It’s really fun. It makes the paintings that are done that way, I think, a little bit special, extra special, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:29

yeah, yeah. And also, because it’s a moment that you shared with some of the people who have observed it, right? It’s like, oh my gosh, yeah. It’s like that one time that I met you at that festival, and this is like the physical memory of like having been there and having had a great time. And I think that’s the other beautiful thing with painting, especially when you’re painting, something that really comes from your soul, right from from within, from that inner voice, is that it speaks to someone else, and also it creates a connection, through memory, through sense, through all of these things that you know, if you hadn’t been there and you’d been painting in your studio, wouldn’t quite be the same. There’s, of course, people still love studio paintings, and they’ll buy them. But there is something extra special about you know, you know collectors, or possible collectors, just people watching a piece that they might be interested in in person like not a lot of people get the privilege of watching an artist paint live, mostly because we’re reclusive and we don’t want to be looked at. But hey, that could just be me.

Alyse Russell: 52:39

Yeah, yeah, no, it’s so it’s so true, and, you know, it’s funny, because I’m very, I don’t, I’m not live painting. I don’t want anybody, but, like, I hate recording my process and stuff, so it’s funny. I don’t want anybody in my studio, you know. So it really is something like, a little little bit special, a little different, dating, live, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:02

Yeah, and actually, I wanted to ask you as well, do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Alyse Russell: 53:19

Yeah. I mean, I think really just consistency is the key. Like, if you consistently put yourself out there and you know are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice, I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s, it’s just, it’s about perseverance, you know, it, I think it’s really just about putting yourself out there, because, like, ultimately, like, like, you know, if you, if you’re gonna have all the skill scale in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re not going to sell any of them. So. And then, you know, on the flip side of that, you’ll see artists who, like, you know, I’m not saying anything about the you know, that to maybe not be my personal favorite, or I don’t think have the most technical skill, you know, but do very well, and you know, it’s because they put themselves out there and they learned how to market themselves, and they took chances, you know, to get where they are. Thank you. Just consistency, putting yourself, putting yourself out there and and that helps you, yeah, find your voice as well, just consistently keeping going,

Laura Arango Baier: 54:49

absolutely, absolutely. And then you get all of the crazy opportunities by putting yourself out there, which is what you said as well. And speaking of opportunities, do you mind telling us about your. Upcoming show?

Alyse Russell: 55:02

Yeah, of course. Upcoming show is that gallery called tereda. I hope I’m not. It’s one of such funny things where I’ve never heard anyone say it, so I hope that’s how you pronounce it. I’ve only ever seen it written down the Rada, and it’s kind of a psychedelic art gallery in Denver, Colorado, and, yeah, it’s, it’s, I haven’t been there in person, so I’m actually really excited to go. I’ve seen a lot of pictures. There’s a lot of artists that I whose work I really love, and, you know who I’ve looked up to, have have worked there, have shown there, and they’re, they’re really wonderful gallery. They’re always very professional and do a great job with everything. I’m very excited to see the show. It’s a group show. It is called Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty. It is a group show, opening may 1, 2026, and then I doesn’t stay here, but I believe it’s just running through the rest of the month, May to June, and the opening reception is May 1. And then can it’s Yeah, once it’s up, you can view all the work from the show. You’ll be able to view all the work from the show on a website to be ww.sereda.com, T, H, R, E, y, D, A, and, yeah, very excited about that. Awesome. And, yeah, I’m excited to see everyone else’s work. Of course, I haven’t seen anybody yet, so, yeah, very exciting. Yeah, see real paintings in real life is like the best thing ever?

Alyse Russell: 57:03

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I’m looking forward. It’ll be a it’ll be a good show. And, yeah, there’s not many upcoming, and that’s the only gallery that I’m currently working with as of right now, and just really have nothing else going on yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:33

Not yet, exactly,

Alyse Russell: 57:34

yeah, but

Laura Arango Baier: 57:35

yeah. But if someone does want to see more of your work and maybe stay up to date, where can they do

Alyse Russell: 57:43

that? My website, www Elise firefly.com and Instagram would be at Elise Firefly arts and, yeah, keep up with me on both of theirs. I’m pretty up to date on Instagram, usually my website. I am starting up my new email newsletter again. So if anyone, it’s usually like monthly to bi monthly. Usually send out, but that will have all the updates on upcoming shows, studio sales, anything like that, and just kind of behind the scenes of my work process, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 58:29

and then I’ll include all your links as well in the show notes, and then your newsletter link, and then the show link so people can go check out your your upcoming show. But yeah, well, thank you so much, Elise for the conversation. I feel very, very seen and validated and inspired. So thank you so much.

Alyse Russell: 58:51

Yes, thank you that was, that was that was great. That was very fun. I feel that, yeah, that felt very validating for me as well. So thank you so much for having me,

Laura Arango Baier: 59:04

of course, and I’m excited to see your future work as well.

Alyse Russell: 59:08

Thank you. Yes, I’m very excited. Got to finish this large piece back here next I think. So that’ll be fun, and I’ll have Yeah, I’m very excited to be back at it.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:23

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

The FASO Way newsletter — exploring how to thrive as an artist in the age of AI

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Today’s Article

Art Marketing Lessons from Shana Levenson

There’s a lot of noise around the “right” way to do art marketing. People talk endlessly about funnels, algorithms, content strategies, and tactics. But, most of that isn’t what’s actually driving sales for working artists.

Listening to Shana Levenson talk about her career on our most recent episode of The FASO Show, a much simpler picture emerges: Art marketing isn’t about tricks, it’s about a handful of habits that, when done consistently, create real momentum. This is what all Sovereign Artists must eventually embrace.

This episode was so good, as an experiment, our team asked ChatGPT to pull out the most important points. We felt that pulling out these nine lessons in a more organized, and shorter, format would be useful to our subscribers. Our team worked with ChatGPT to get these points organized in the clearest format that we could. And then we went through and edited them for presentation and clarity.

Some of you may bristle at our use of AI for this, so we’d like to explain: Our beef with AI is primarily when it is used in a way that reduces opportunities for artists. Our goal, in the places we do utilize AI, is to use it in a way that supports human artists.

For example, at FASO, we do not train AI on your artwork for the purposes of using it to generate alternative images. We do use AI to protect your artwork from scrapers (including other AI bots). And we will use AI in ways that send more art lovers and collectors to our customers.

As always, The FASO Way is an open forum, so we’d love to know what your opinion of such AI use is in the comments. And, please, as we always request, all comments must be dignified and respectful of us and of your fellow artist colleagues who may have differing points of view. We are in this together, so discussion, and even debate, is important. But hateful or threatening comments will be blocked.

Here are the nine lessons that Shana made that stood out:

1. Galleries Are Not the Center Anymore

Shana was direct about this: being in a gallery is not the end goal.

Galleries still matter. They give people a place to see your work in person. And that is important. But they’re no longer the primary driver of sales for many artists.

In Shana’s case, most collectors were finding her through social media. At one point, she realized she was bringing the majority of buyers to the gallery herself—while still giving up 50% of the sale.

That led her to a simple conclusion: if the gallery isn’t actively helping sell your work, the relationship may not make sense.

The takeaway isn’t to avoid galleries. It’s to understand what role they actually play—and not rely on them to build your career for you.

2. Social Media Is a Direct Line to Collectors

For Shana, social media wasn’t optional. It was how she built her collector base.

The key point here is not “go viral” or “play the algorithm.” It’s much simpler:

If people don’t see your work regularly, they don’t remember you.

That’s the entire game. Which leads to the next point…

3. Consistency Beats Everything

One of her mentees was posting once a month and seeing no results.

So, her mentee moved to posting once a week instead, and things started to happen.

That’s the whole change: You don’t need elaborate videos. You don’t need to be on camera if you don’t want to. You don’t need to spend hours creating content.

You do need to show your work consistently: A good photo; a detail shot; a crop; a moment that shares some of your process.

Simple things like that, posted regularly.

4. Presentation Matters More Than You Think

She emphasized this clearly: the quality of your images matters.

If your photo is poor, that’s the first impression—and often, it’s the only one.

Please take the time to:

• Photograph your work well

• Adjust lighting and color correctly

• Show close-ups and details

You’re not just documenting your work—you’re presenting it.

Editor’s’ note: if we had the ability to “upvote” this item, we would. This is one of the biggest mistakes we see on FASO Artist Websites.

5. Pay Attention to What People Respond To

One of Shana’s most useful insights came from a simple experiment: She posted a cropped section of a painting—and it got a stronger response than the full image.

That led her to explore that idea further, and she eventually turned that idea into an entire series that sold well.

The lesson is not to chase reactions blindly, but to notice them.

Your audience is constantly telling you, through their feedback and reactions, what’s resonating with that. And that information can guide you to what to explore next.

6. Most Sales Happen After the First Message

This is where many artists drop the ball: Someone expresses interest, and the artist either hesitates or doesn’t follow up.

Shana does the opposite.

She:

• Responds quickly

• States the price clearly

• Mentions payment plans upfront

• Follows up later with new work

Her experience is that a large percentage of sales come from continued contact—not the first interaction.

Clint’s note: I used to sell art for my own gallery. I once followed up with a prospect every couple of months FOR THREE YEARS before making the first sale to him. Most artists give up FAR too soon. And, on the flip side, as a buyer, I am SHOCKED at how often that I find a work I WANT TO BUY on an artist’s website, email the artist some questions and then…….nothing. Or, I finally get a response two months later. I’m going to say this straight out, from a place of stern love: when you do that to a collector, it is INFURIATING. And it WILL cause you to lose the sale and most likely to lose future sales. If following up is a challenge for you, please let me know in the comments. We, at FASO, are developing a service that will be of assistance in that department and it will close sales you are losing if you aren’t following up properly. Let us know if that’s of interest in the comments.

7. Make It Easy for People to Buy

One small change made a big difference for Shana: offering payment plans.

It allows people who love your work—but can’t pay all at once—to still become collectors.

Combine payment plans with clear communication (price, availability, next steps), and you remove a lot of the friction that prevents sales from happening.

8. Don’t Rely on One Income Stream

Shana was also clear that relying only on original paintings can be unstable.

She supplements her income through:

• Prints

• Teaching

• Workshops

• Mentorship

Each of these creates another way for people to engage with her work.

9. Stop Avoiding the Hard Parts

Her final point applies across everything: If you’re not good at something—posting, selling, talking about your work—you don’t avoid it, you do more of it.

That’s how you improve.

Closing

There’s nothing overly complicated here.

Show your work consistently. Present it well. Pay attention to what resonates. Follow up with people. Make it easy to buy.

None of it is flashy, but it all works. And it all makes a difference.

Leave a comment

PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

The FASO Way newsletter — exploring how to thrive as an artist in the age of AI

Today’s Newsletter is Brought to You by FASO.

FASO Loves Rob Rey’s paintings

SPRING SALE - SAVE 52% ON FASO FOR A LIMITED TIME

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Today’s Article

The following article was written by Debra Keirce, a regular contributing author to The BoldBrush Letter.

Some Marketing Strategy Ideas Worth Stealing

We’ve all had to choose how to promote our art. Even choosing not to market it is a decision. Are you like me? Have you listened to more sales gurus than you can count, paid for a few of them, and yet, to this day, find yourself endlessly curious about what actually works?

At this stage in my career, it’s hard to settle on just one system. Instead, I’ve spent years shamelessly stealing bits and pieces from various sources. The strategies I keep are the ones that actually move my needle, knowing that success looks different for everyone.

Let’s be honest. Mastering the business of art is on par with earning a PhD. It takes most of us at least a decade to reach any level of proficiency. We are constantly pelted with questions. Is a magazine ad worth the splurge? Should I sponsor an award? How much time should I spend researching a new market versus actually creating art for it?

It’s overwhelming. In fact, it’s so overwhelming that I never run out of content for these monthly articles. But today, I want to share my personal approaches that have survived the trial by fire since 2010. That was the year I ordered Vista Print cards and officially began calling myself a professional artist.

None of us are discovering or doing anything new here. I don’t remember who I stole these from, but I’m glad I did. If you’re new to the game, feel free to lift these for your own toolkit. If you’re a veteran, please add your own stolen goods in the comments. Collaboration is always more beautiful than competition.

The Stolen Strategy List:

Identify Your Why and Stick to the Script

I make sure every promo, post, and pitch aligns with my core purpose. My why is simple. I want to wake up tomorrow and be the best realist painter and draughtsman I am capable of being for the day. If a marketing opportunity doesn’t serve that growth, it’s a distraction.

Network Up - and Also Out

I surround myself with people who challenge me. If I’m the most skilled person in the room, I’m in the wrong room for growth. If I’m in a group that isn’t interested in my genre, I recognize I’m there for the social hour, not the career boost. Both are fine, I just don’t confuse them.

Adapt to the Six-Second Attention Span

I don’t enjoy making videos, and I am definitely not known for being succinct. However, the world currently demands short reels and concise mailings. If I send out five page daily manifestos and ignore social media algorithms, I’m shouting into a very empty void.

Leave Room for the Unscripted

I used to think I needed a rigid, 12-month list of actionable marketing tasks. I’ve since learned that if I focus on getting my work in front of as many eyeballs as possible, unsolicited opportunities appear. Most of the highlights on my resume weren’t part of an aggressive plan. They were the result of being visible when luck stopped by.

Stay the Student, Not the Sage

My observation - Being curious and self-deprecating is almost always more effective than acting like the ultimate expert. The best artists I know never stop learning, and their following grows because people love the journey. Overconfident creators tend to end up with very small circles, because people take what they need and then leave.

Focus on the Essentials

Most metrics are decoys. High follower counts and likes rarely translate directly to my biggest commissions or sales. Even major awards, while wonderful for the ego, don’t always swing doors open. My technical skills are vital, but marketing success only happens when my strategy aligns with that “why” from point number one.

Try as Much as You Can

I have found that there are no universal answers. The only way to know for sure what works for me? Try it! Then, streamline down to only what works best.

So, what are you going to add to your “must steal” list this month? Or, perhaps more importantly, what are you finally going to stop doing?

Leave a comment

Debra Keirce
www.DebKArt.com

Join me each month for free updates on this art adventure at
https://debkart.com/email-newsletter

PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

Today’s Newsletter is Brought to You by FASO.

FASO Loves Liz Phillips’ paintings

SPRING SALE - SAVE 52% ON FASO FOR A LIMITED TIME

Wouldn’t You Love to work with a website hosting company that actually promotes their artists?

As you can see, at FASO, we actually do, and,
we are the only website host we know of that does.

Click the button below to start working
with an art website host that actually cares about art.

Just activate your account before before your trial expires to save 52% on your first year.

Get started with FASO for Free

We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

Why Being Called a Sheep Is Not an Insult but the Highest Compliment

When I first read in the Bible that believers are called sheep, I wasn’t impressed. It sounded degrading – to say the least. Some people explained that it’s because humans are as dumb as sheep. That I could certainly see – in myself and in others – and yet something about that explanation didn’t sit right.

If “sheep” is just a euphemism for “not very smart,” why would a good God choose to call us that? Doesn’t He see – and draw out – the best in us, especially when we stray?

After all, didn’t He give His followers many uplifting and encouraging names: the rock, sons of thunder, the one whom Jesus loved, the son of encouragement? So why would He take such a drastically different approach here?

Fast-forward many years. I came across a video explaining that the Western image of a shepherd tending sheep is very different from that of the Near East, especially in ancient times. In the West – and in Russia, where I grew up – a shepherd drives the flock from behind, with a whip.

So when I read in John 10 that the shepherd “goes before them, and the sheep follow him,” it didn’t compute. It wasn’t until someone explained the Near Eastern approach to shepherding that the pieces began to fall into place.

In John 10, the sheep follow the shepherd because they know and recognize his voice – not because they are driven from behind. Sheep have a remarkable ability to recognize and respond to specific human voices, especially when they are bonded to their shepherd.

To be called a sheep means to possess a unique capacity – a perceptiveness that responds to the divine voice. A sheep is the perfect responder to the Call: the call of Beauty, of Magnetism, of Attraction.

Martin Heidegger famously wrote in his Letter on Humanism (1947):

“The human being is not the lord of beings, but the shepherd of Being.”

True shepherding has nothing to do with driving, whipping, or forcing. It has everything to do with calling, attracting, summoning. The sheep follow not because they are compelled, but because they know the Caller – and will not follow another.

Just as the divine Shepherd never drives but calls, so the human being is not the lord of beings but the one who invokes Being.

If we know the voice of the One who calls, we come to know the power of attraction. He who lords it over beings betrays Being. But he who knows the voice of the divine Caller becomes the shepherd of Being.

Being itself is like a sheep. It waits for the right voice to invoke it. It does not respond to the voice of a stranger. It cannot be manipulated or forced into presence. It flees from those who would dominate it but opens itself – like a flower under the warm rays of the sun.

Being does not yield to force, for force is a form of weakness. It responds only to true power – the quiet but irresistible pull of Wonder and Beauty.

Leave a comment

PS — Editors note — if you’re wondering what today’s issue has to do with art, it’s in the last line of Eugene’s piece: responding to the “quiet but irresistible pull of Wonder and Beauty” is the essence of true art.

PPS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO

Learn the magic of marketing with us here at FASO!
https://www.boldbrushshow.com/

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On today’s episode we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite park ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings blend rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored abstraction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry, and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms, and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full-time painter and seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect people emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory, and truly knowing one’s subject—whether it’s a cliff face, endangered owl, or peregrine falcon. Over time his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission: using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists to be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long-term perseverance, and on building real human connections—with collectors, galleries, and fellow artists—rather than chasing awards or trends. J Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite (opening May 4), as well as group shows including the California Art Club Gold Medal Exhibition, the Art Renewal Center Salon in New York, and invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year.

James’ FASO site:
jamesmcgrewfineart.com/

James’ Social Media:
facebook.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

instagram.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

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Transcript:

James McGrew: 0:00

I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me like she’s saying, like, you gotta, you gotta just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true and I but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work. And, you know, getting those those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:42

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. On today’s episode, we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite Park Ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings lent rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored obstruction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full time painter and a seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect with people, emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory and truly knowing one subject, whether it’s a cliff face endangered owl or peregrine falcon. Over time, his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission, using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long term perseverance and on building real world, human connections with collectors, galleries and fellow artists, rather than chasing awards or trends. Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite, opening may 4 as well as group shows, including the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibition, the art renewal center salon in New York, and Invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year. Welcome James to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

James McGrew: 2:47

Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m doing well.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:50

Thank you. I’m excited to have you. Yes, I’m excited to have you because your work is beautiful and it is so authentic. How much you love nature, which, of course, we will touch so much more on where that stems from. But I’m very excited to have you to be able to pick your brain about your work and your inspiration and how you are a multi disciplinary person, which is really awesome because you have so many things to pull from. But before we dive into all of that good stuff, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

James McGrew: 3:23

Sure, so I My name is James McGrew. I’ve been a full time professional artist for about 30 years, and for about 25 summer seasons. I was an interpretive park ranger in Yosemite as well, seasonally for about a couple months each summer. And so whether I’m doing my painting or photography or video work or writing or having done, you know, programs, presentations, or teaching a workshop, one hour workshop, or a photography workshop, it’s really kind of all the same thing. I think of myself as an environmental educator. So it’s all just different ways of using different vehicles for communication to connect people with the places that I love.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yes, yeah. And you know that goes back to the you are an absolute nature lover. I think, I don’t think I’ve ever met someone as involved and as enthusiastic, motivated to really dive into the importance of conservation and environmentalism and nature and also be a phenomenal artist. I think that’s one of the coolest things. You’re welcome. So I wanted to ask you, too, because you’ve always had this love of nature, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

James McGrew: 4:44

That’s that’s tough to say, because it was so early that I don’t remember a lot of things really well back then, I’ve come across some photos of me at the dining room table with watercolors painting when I was, like, four years old. If. I do remember getting in trouble in school and math class around third grade frequently for drawing Yosemite drawing, kind of all the time so. And then when I was eight years old, my aunt gave me a set of pastels, soft pastels, and and then another friend of our family, about a year later, another much bigger set of Rembrandt soft pastels, and then my dad gave me oils that he had the from college when I was 10. So it’s been as long as I can remember, really, but that’s just the actual act of painting, drawing. The bigger part of that the deep resource that I draw upon, the inspiration for all the artwork, is just my connection with nature. And that goes back even further. So when I was four months old, my parents first took me backpacking in Yosemite, not with a pack of my back. You know, I was the backpack, but they have photos of me and in Yosemite National Park in the back country, and they said I was just enthralled with my eyes wide open and my mouth open, just looking up at the cliffs. And I don’t quite remember that trip some reason, but I do remember a few years later, about six to eight years old, and one really important trip when I was eight years old for my birthday, and we were backpacking in hecheschi and the northwestern part of Yosemite, and that was a record snowpack year, with massive snow melt in late June, with the waterfalls raging and thundering. And it just had such a vivid impact on me, emotionally, mentally, and I can still remember it. Fact, I remember getting in trouble in school, drawing from that trip just behind the waterfalls, they were so big, you know, later on, so the next year in school. So I think that background the art path is just it’s been there for a really long time.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:54

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Would you say that your I guess, desire to turn it into more of a career. Was that something that started or, you know, like maybe early as well, like when you were maybe in high school, or was that like later down the line?

James McGrew: 7:13

Well, you know, it was always there. As long as I can remember, there were times that I thought about it and things. But of course, there’s always the thing that you hear from so many people, starving artists. You can’t make a living as an artist. And so on my I have to credit my my family, for tremendous amount of support and always encouraging me, and also a lot of teachers along the way. And I remember my sixth grade art teacher, she told my parents at a teacher parent conference like, you know, I normally tell students don’t plan to make a career as an artist, but you really should encourage your son to do so. And so they did, and they told me that, which, you know, I so I think, you know, it’s really, I have to give a lot of credit to other people for helping steer that path. I mean, I’ve always had that energy and that notion, but when I was in high school. I didn’t quite know what it was that I really want to do. I painted all the time, and was always studying work and and then when I went to look into going to college, actually, for my high school senior project, we had to do something that would be a legitimate career. And at that time, I was I loved art, I loved nature, and I loved bonsai, which is a form of art with, you know, potted small trees. And so I thought, well, it could incorporate all these things together. And I thought, well, landscape architecture, perhaps. So I did a thing on that at the time, just a little kind of interlude. And I think part of that had to do with my art teacher and my sophomore or junior year who asked me to use a certain technique with pastels in a painting, and I demonstrated with demos that I was able to do it, and I did it, and then I did it in parts of that painting. But I really wanted to kind of follow my own voice and my own heart and some things that I’ve been playing with pastel since I was eight years old, and I didn’t see the way she was trying to get me to paint as being really the way that I see and experience the world. And there are some areas that, when we look at stuff that you know, there’s high detail and sharp edges and texture, and the other areas that are kind of blurry, and I was trying to paint that way, and some areas I was smudging, and other areas I was leaving sharp. And she just wanted the whole thing to be kind of, you know, sketchy with the pastels, without ever being able to blur any areas I’m like. So I did some spots that way, and then I left other areas softer, and I intentionally smudged other areas and softened edges. And she gave me a D on the painting, and it was the only time I had not gotten an A on a painting. And she says, I did this to teach you a lesson. And she goes, You didn’t listen to the instructions. And but then when we had the end of the year art show, she had it hung front and center in the entryway to the entire school as the showpiece. So I got really kind of confused with that. And but then it really kind. Sunk in that, yes, you do have to listen to your instructors, but it also kind of backfired. It made me even more entrenched in how important it is to follow my own voice, and it just it didn’t feel right to do somebody else tell me do with my artwork, because my artwork is an expression of me and how I feel and how I interpret the world, and so still super valuable experience, and so kind of an important, you know, moment there, but that, I think, is probably part of the reason why I was a little unsure for a little bit. But then when I went to go look at college, and I went to the dean of the art department of the school that I was looking at going to, and they looked at my work and said, We think your work is wonderful, but it’s very representational. And that’s not the direction the art world is moving. They said, any university you go to, it’s going to be about abstract expressionism, being expressive with acrylics and just throwing color on canvas. And if you want to learn to paint with oils, and you want to learn to and you want to learn to draw properly and paint with an old master style, a classical style, that’s just it. You can come here, but you’re not going to probably be happy. And so I was really kind of put off by that, and just decided it was time to study the other thing that I loved, which was nature and figure out how to get to Yosemite, somehow, my favorite place in the world. And so I went to get a degree in biology. And then as I was taking courses in biology, and we had to take additional science courses and other disciplines like geology and chemistry and physics and things like that. And I realized along the way how interrelated all sciences are, and just how inspiring it was and how exciting it was to just learn more about what I wanted to paint. And so I added minors in chemistry and geology, and still taking every art class that I could, you know, from art history to darkroom photography to biological illustration when I was in grad school, and so just lots of stuff along the way. But my real inspiration for art was going to museums and looking at the works that really moved me. Like, I can’t remember, I can’t remember what year it was, but the first time I ever walked into a room full of Rembrandts and I just, you know, art skipped a few beats. They were alive. They were breathing. They were just so real. And then they the American Masters who painted the places that I love, like Thomas Hill, Thomas Moran, Albert Bierstadt, and other artists in similar styles in the 19th century. And of course, the ones that we all look at today, like Sargent and Zorn and Zorya and those guys, but, you know, I was looking a lot at the artists who painted the landscapes that I loved, especially, and so that was all kind of inner mixed together, but not really knowing what I wanted to do with it, other than somehow figure out a way to keep painting, figure out a way to get to Yosemite and be in the place that I loved. And at the end of my four years in undergrad, I was on a geology field trip, and we were in Yosemite at the entire course is actually on the geology of Yosemite National Park. And for the end of the course, we went to Yosemite for a week long field trip. And while I was there, I learned about this internship program with the National Park Service and the Yosemite Conservancy. And I just like, This is it. I have to be this. I got to apply to this. So throughout my time in school, I tailored every project in every class to something to do with Yosemite. So in a Native American narratives course, I tailored it to the awanichi in Yosemite. In organic chemistry, I wrote my year long term paper on the reactions of ozone, air pollution, with terpenes and chlorophyll in in pine trees in the park. In entomology, I studied bark beetle so like of course, I studied geology and of our national parks and all my geology courses. So everything was just really tailored. And I had all these papers written and things, and so I submitted this volume of stuff and photos of my photography and my paintings, and I applied for a wilderness position to just be on patrol on the trails and making sure people were safe and camping properly with permits. And they asked me, because of my background, if I could work in interpretation and be able to do programs for the public. And when they said, working in Tuolumne Meadows with campfires with 300 people, like my heart really skipped debate. Like, I don’t want to do public speaking, you know, but I mind. I don’t mind communicating with people through my work. I love doing that, but actually performing in front of a crowd, that’s really scary. And so they said, Well, you can give it a shot, and if it doesn’t work, you can move to wilderness. But we’d really like you to give it a try, you know. And they let me do it in a less intense environment, in Yosemite Valley. And. First, I was not very good, and I heard these incredibly brilliant speakers, longtime park rangers had been there for decades, who were just some of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met. And they could take any tangible object that we see in nature and then just layer all these levels of intangible concepts that just pull at the heartstrings and make people really think and make connections. And that was scary at first, because, like, oh my god, I can share some knowledge, but like, I don’t know how to do this, you know. And over time, I did, and I kept working at it, and I eventually I realized I had the potential to connect people with nature and inspire people that would have lasting impacts outside of their visit to a national park. And so then I went to grad school for a Master’s of Science in environmental education, and all along the way, kept painting. And today, after 25 summers as an interpretive ranger, and the rest of the year and On days off and before and after work, I was always painting. And so it’s, it’s really been predominantly an artist, but it’s, it’s all, like I said at the beginning, a vehicle for communication as an environmental educator. And so as to how that path kind of became realization that it would be making a living as an artist, I don’t really know. There’s any one time, I guess, when I was young, and I was more kind of confident in everything and my knowledge of stuff, I just walked into galleries like, Hey, do you want to sell my work? And I was very fortunate that I landed some shows in college at some major galleries, and things were successful from right, from the beginning. And so I never really questioned that, and never thought about it. And I’ve just been very, very fortunate that the right doors open up at the right times, and I met some really wonderful people that, you know, saw what I was trying to do with my work, and I’m really grateful for those opportunities. So it’s just been like part of who I’ve been my entire adult life. Really, I’ve not known any other path other than that. So there wasn’t any one pivotal moment to make a living as an artist, just sort of all happened. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:09

It feels very organic, like your love for nature, very organic. But yeah, you’ve mentioned a lot of stuff there that’s very fascinating, you know, like the having the proper support from teachers, and sometimes even, like the, I guess, like that stubborn sort of, well, I have my vision, and this teacher is trying to like, because I think many artists have definitely gone through that situation. I feel like it’s almost rite of passage where butt heads with an instructor at some point, because they just don’t seem to, I don’t know, see what you see, and it is hard to come to terms with that. And I think that also dissuades a lot of people from pursuing art as a career, and the challenges of wanting to be representational, also in a time, especially, you know, 2030, years ago, in a time where it was considered a dead thing. Like, why would you do that? Especially, gosh, I feel like from the 50s up until like 2000s is when contemporary schools were all modernist and almost anti representational, which is kind of sad, because it’s still, you know, no hate on contemporary art, but there’s room for everyone you know, like even contemporary art stems from observation of nature and comes from realism, comes from representational work. So it’s good that you push past that and you still kept going stubbornly.

James McGrew: 18:40

But I actually, I already is I thought I knew the most about art when I was younger, and the more I keep studying, the more I realize how much more there is to know. And it’s like you reach a certain level with your work, with a certain level of accomplishment and a certain level of understanding. And you kind of break through these barriers, and you keep going up and up, and all of a sudden you begin to see things in masterworks in museums that you couldn’t see before that. And as far as I know, those never end, you know, they just keep getting more and more and more. So you begin to realize just how much there is to really learn, and just how brilliant a lot of the masters were, both contemporary and, you know, for the last hundreds of years of throughout art history.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:24

Yeah, and like you said, it’s the gift that keeps on giving. Like, the more you know, the less you know. And it’s similar with science. You know, the more you learn, the more questions you have. And it just keeps going on and on and on. And actually, speaking of science, I wanted to ask you, do you find that your increase in like knowledge about biology, chemistry and all these different scientific components has that influenced your understanding of painting and how to create like an image that seems more realistic just based on that

James McGrew: 19:55

Absolutely, in fact, I would say that’s kind of the foundation, the most important thing. And. And you know, we think about this, look at davinci’s work, you look at Rembrandt’s work, you go back to these master figure painters and the studies they did with human anatomy, with dissections and things, and they really early on, that’s when you start to really see figure work that starts to look real. And every great figure painter today, of course, studies anatomy to some degree, and it’s really important to know the bone structure and the musculature and everything and how things work. And the reality is the same with your painting nature. So I mean human animals versus, you know, other wild animals, birds and things, you still have to know the anatomy. It’s also important to know the behavior. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been really fortunate to encounter incredible species that are very rare, endangered species in the wild, pretty frequently, and sometimes that’s just a product of being out painting plein air, very still, very quiet by yourself for two hours with all of your senses heightened, and animals just they lose their sense of fear, and they go about their business, and they’ll reveal themselves to you and like, go walking or flying right by in front of me while I’m working, but also just knowing what I’m intentionally looking for stuff and knowing when and where to find them, and then be able to tell the stories about those animals, how they fit in an ecological niche, or the background behind that thing and the story that’s being told through my work. And sometimes I’m adding a visual story in the painting. Other times it’s the captivating thing, and I’m adding an interpretive writing that goes with that pain, that elaborates and gives you some more information on the natural history or ecological status, on endangered species status or things like that. So that’s all super important. And and then, of course, the anatomy of nature is, you know, geology, and also physics. And the more we understand geology and why rocks break the way they do, why they layer and color the way that they do, that’s really important, and what to look for in the landscape. I mean, you know, you look at the Impressionists and just looking at a thing and finding a color and value and the relationships of those strokes next to everything around it is valuable, and you can just create a painting that way. But it helps a lot if you also are kind of looking for certain things. And you know why a rock should be more angular in certain situations, or softer and more rounded than others. Why that there would be certain colors on the cliffs? Why, with physics of atmosphere and light through Rayleigh scatter, why things compress and value and become more blue as they recede, and why you have different light source versus, you know, warm and cool and light source versus reflected light and a shadow, and there are no fit rules. And like I was at on faculty plein air convention last year, and and one of the other faculty members came up and used my painting as a demo for somebody he was trying to talk to. And and the guy said, okay, so somebody else told me that the shadows should be warmer than the light source, and it’s always that way. And like, well, there’s a lot of situations where that’s the case, but it’s not always true. And at this time of day, it was sunset. So I said, you know this, the atmosphere has filtered out all the short wavelengths of the spectrum. We only have the long wavelengths coming through, so the light source is very warm, but the shadows right now reflecting blue light from the sky, so it’s completely reversed of what you think. And if you’re not making observations in nature and also understanding what’s happening with that physics, you know it might be a lot more complicated to try and figure things out. And then the other side of all of that doesn’t matter what genre of work you’re doing or what your subject matter is, is knowing human visual processing system, how we perceive things, how we process how it triggers certain emotions, how we can play off of our processing system, like the way the Impressionists did, using like, for example, equal value, complementary colors and juxtapose near each other. And you know, the rods and the cones and our retinas are wired to different parts of the brain, and so rods are looking at grayscale, and cones are looking at color and detail. And so if you put those equal value complements next to each other, the brain has a hard time figuring out what’s going on, and that’s what causes the vibrance and atmosphere you see in Impressionism. And I mean, even fasori wrote about it, with the Mona Lisa, with the the green earth that was used, and the verdaccio and the under painting, and then the Vermillion mixed with lead white into the the over painting, and you get that resonance and vibrance of two complementary colors there and and create like, as he said, it looked like the veins in her neck were pulsing. We can’t see that now, because the varnish has changed and the paints changed. But you know, we can rely on what was written about it and see that in more contemporary works that do the same thing. So whether they knew the science behind what was happening or not, certain artists figured these things out along the way. And we can study the art, or we can. Study the science or both. And I think it’s all really valuable and instrumental into helping know what to look for, and that speeds the process and helps us when we’re inevitably always getting stuck, you know, in a painting, trying to figure things out why something’s not working.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:18

Yeah, yeah. And that’s it’s so fascinating, because now it’s, I’m even more intimidated by landscape just the idea of, like, Huh? I wonder if this is limestone over there, and what kind of reflective nature limestone has, and maybe granite doesn’t have, and all of these things that could definitely, I would say it could improve the understanding of a painting, which is great. And I think it’s also up to the person, if they want to go that far to like, really understand what they’re looking at, which is exactly what Leonardo did right with his illegal anatomy shenanigans, which really helped him understand the insertion points of muscles and why, you know, certain things are shaped the way they are, or even, like the very famous Michelangelo sculpture where the pinky is slightly lifted, so this one muscle is exposed that isn’t normally exposed unless your pinky is lifted. So, yeah, I think there is a beautiful combination of, like, knowledge and observation that I think a lot of successful paintings and sculptures and other art forms tend to have. So I think, if anything, it might, it might spark intimidation, but curiosity as well as like, Oh, okay. Like, how would that work? Or, like, how does why does this look funny? Maybe there is a scientific observational reason why it’s not working in my painting. So that’s really interesting. And actually, speaking of I

James McGrew: 26:46

do that when I teach a workshop, I always mix that the stuff that you standard teach in a workshop, design, composition, draftsmanship, values, color theory and, of course, edges, you know. But I also teach all the natural history sides of things, and the visual processing system and the art history and all that stuff and how it interweaves together to help people be able to see better and work more efficiently and effectively and and know what to look for and when and how and anticipate. So much about plein air painting is not capturing something in the moment, it’s knowing what’s going to happen. Like, you know, sunset lasts for five minutes, and you can’t paint a good sized painting in that amount of time, usually. But you know, you have to kind of know where things are likely to go.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:35

Yeah, yeah. And that’s the part about science that’s so useful. It’s the repetition, right? The the replication of experiments. It’s the knowing what’s going to happen. Like you said, just based on, oh, well, these are the conditions that are happening. I’m just going to lay out, for example, like lay out all of the structure of my painting. And that way, once I know that sunset hits where I want it, where I know it’s going to be, I know exactly where I’m going to start popping those colors on, where I need to, to make a convincing, you know, image. And I think that’s, that’s, I like to say that plein air is like running a crazy marathon, which actually leads me to my next question, because I know you do plein air, of course, and you do studio work. What is your process like? You know, from searching for your subject matter up to finished piece.

James McGrew: 28:27

That’s a great question. It’s a big question. The most important thing, like we’ve been talking about, is just observing nature and spending time in nature and letting that sort of reveal itself. You know, what really moves me? What inspires me. Sometimes I’m actually looking for something on purpose, like looking for peregrine falcons or looking for spotted owls or great gray owls or bears or something that I’m intending to paint for a reason. And we’ll put myself into that habitat on purpose, set up a landscape painting and be working, and invariably, I’ll have a long lens on a camera set to high speed and have another panel set and ready to go quickly. And then if that animal shows up, I’ll usually do a quick study of them, even if it’s only a matter of strokes, or I might incorporate them into the painting that I’m already working on. And then, of course, grab some quick reference photos. And most important, just really absorb that moment and suck it as much as I can in through my senses, and pay attention to everything I’m observing and feeling at the time. And I think a lot of it is intentional, but a lot of it is also beyond our kind of intended control, like just so many of the things that we’re feeling when we’re out in nature, ultimately do come in through all of our senses, whether it be visual or auditory or olfactory or touch and and then just even the way we’re feeling at the moment and aware of what’s going on and like, there’s times I’ve been on a vertical wall on a cliff in Yosemite rock climbing to get an image or something, you know, and one of the paintings is in my next upcoming show. Actually. Is peregrine falcons hunting bats at sunset, and I was really reliant on a park biologist and a couple of outstanding world class rock climbers to get me into that place, to be able to get there, to experience that, do a study on site and get the photo references. But also it was so intense my senses were heightened, and like, I could paint it without their references, because it’s just so indelibly ingrained, because because of the experience, because the emotion of where I was, you know, 300 feet off the ground at the time, so that that all kind of comes into play. And whether we’re consciously thinking about it or not, it’s channeled through the brush when you’re there on site. And so when I’m out in nature painting, it’s sometimes kind of planned. Other times it’s just whatever happens and what inspires me, and I don’t know what I’m going to look for for the day. I mean, I rely on my background to know when the light’s going where, like in Yosemite Valley, for example, I know certain times of the year when the light hits certain waterfalls, when to anticipate certain things, when it hits certain sequoia groves, when it hits certain cliffs. And the same is true in other landscapes that I paint a lot, like Zion and Grand Canyon and and things like that. But then there’s stuff that you just you can’t predict, and when certain wildlife is going to arrive, when weather changes unexpectedly, when something hits, that just really makes you excited and inspired. Like, oh, I have to paint that right now. I was not what I was thinking, but get my gear out go, you know, and gotta record it. And I almost never paint a studio piece without a plein air reference, at least one, and I have to have experienced it on in person. So I often hesitate to take on commissions if somebody doesn’t have, you know, something that they’ve already seen me paint, and I already have planner references and photographs of my own, my own memories, and so that’s a really important part of the process. But then, of the images that I’ve gathered in the studio to plan our studies and and things, there are certain ones over time I’ll kind of sometimes know right away, oh, that’s gonna be my big show piece for my next show. Other times, I just look at stuff and kind of figure out, all right, which ones am I going to orchestrate into certain pieces and figure out which ones I need to tell the story to round out the body of work and to put together for a thematic body for a show like every one of my big solo shows have a thematic body behind them, an artist statement that’s describing how all those paintings fit into an umbrella. And so I usually am planning those out at least a year ahead of time. And so those, those are kind of going into what I’m designing for the studio pieces. And then, like I have right here behind me, I have a big piece of Yosemite that’s going to be one of the pieces in my show. I’m making some last adjustments to it now and then the plein air reference here that I painted on site one morning, got up at dawn, went out to this viewpoints, a steep scramble up on some granite cliffs, to that spot, and set up. And I painted, I don’t know how many times from that area, all different times a day, all different times of the year. And this one that I really didn’t want to put up for sale. So many of my plein air paintings I never put out for sale because they’re just too valuable as a reference for a studio piece. And this one I’d been wanting to do, and I just knew it would fit with the theme of the show. And so use that to orchestrate in conjunction with my memory and my photos and come up with the big studio pieces,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:29

amazing, wow,

James McGrew: 33:30

and try and channel the same emotions that I had while I was in the field. And sometimes I have to just really kind of visualize and think and try and go back in my mind to try and get back into that place. Sometimes I rely on certain music to get me there and fit the same kind of a mood.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:49

Yes, yeah. I think that’s one of those underrated parts of being a painter, which is memory. I think a lot of a lot of the most important part of the process is part memory and part, of course, like immediate reaction to what you’re seeing and immediate capturing, right? But I think you know, having the memory is so so so valuable. I mean, that means you can, you know that means you can close your eyes and you have learned something so well that you can visually recreate it without necessarily having to see it because you’ve observed it so much. And I think that’s one of those skills that I think is, you know, necessary to develop that observation memory. Like, if I could close my eyes and repaint the painting that I’m making on a separate scrap of paper, I probably could type of skill set. I did. I have a funny little question, which is, do you think you could paint a scene from one of your favorite areas without any references, just from memory? I.

James McGrew: 35:00

Definitely I have, and I do, yes, when I was a kid, I loved fishing. I love trout, and from when I was eight years old, I started using pastels to draw very species of trout. By the time I was a teenager, I could paint any species of trout that lived in the Sierra, just from memory, the different color patterns. And, you know, Rainbow, golden, cutthroats, browns, brook trout, which are actually char, but they all have very different color patterns and thin Ray patterns and shapes and everything. And those were the things that I was, you know, for a little while there, that I love to paint a lot and but the other landscape too, you know certain key things in Yosemite. Yosemite is in the Grand Canyon in Zion, Yellowstone. So many of our big, iconic Western national parks are almost more like painting portraits than landscapes in some respects, because, like, if you know you’re reading Edgar Payne’s book or John Carlson’s guide, landscape painting, like just so many of these books about you know how to modify the landscape and and be able to orchestrate a landscape that kind of works, that only works when you can really fudge things a lot with Yosemite, the features are so iconic and so well Known, like the abanici and Yosemite refer to Half Dome as tissiak. And there’s an Indian legend behind that, and everything. And like, there are, like, there’s, there are profiles of a human face, couple of them in the Face of Half Dome, and with the lichen streaks and oxidation patterns on the streak on the face. And if you don’t get that right, you look at the geology right, like people recognize it right away. And it’s like messing up the features of somebody’s face, or, if you’re doing a figure study, and getting their one arm kind of wonky or something, you know, or the hands, is always, of course, you know, really hard to paint, too. So that’s just something that is really important when painting really well known landscapes, and you you have to kind of rely on that knowledge of it being more like a portrait painting than just a straight landscape. But that’s not to say you can’t fudge things, because we do perceive things differently. And my biggest struggle with our big national parks, and so many artists have said the same to me, is, how do you capture the sense of scale? You know, if we’re looking almost 5000 feet up at the Face of Half Dome, or two and a half 1000 feet at Yosemite Falls, we’re looking 12 miles across the Grand Canyon. And how do you gather and convey the sense of scale with the emotional impact, without just resorting to pure abstract you know, works or or like Bierstadt did and completely move mountains around, or Moran did the same thing and do lots of degree Thomas Hill and by the way, all those guys also study with scientists. And at the time frame the science expeditions, the Hayden expedition, things like that. Scientists were working side by side with photographers and painters, and they were all sharing the knowledge interchangeably between each other, so there really wasn’t the kind of difference that we see today of different fields, but I think that’s all really kind of instrumental in coming up with the landscape piece of one of our national parks, which for me, the reason I paint them partially is because they’re so beautiful and just so inspirational. And when I was a kid, and when I was younger, like that was just my inspiration, I just was excited and moved inside to do it. But then something changed when my first daughter was born. She’s now 29 and in fact, her and her husband are due in July, some of your grandfather, but so that’s even adds more to it. But I remember there was this day I was near Glacier Point in Yosemite, and when I was in my late teens or so, you feel kind of invincible, especially if like you’re an athlete or something, and you’re you’re out in these places, and you’re not really thinking about the potential danger times. And there was one day where there was just this light bulb that I remember really clearly, and I was at this ledge of a cliff, and I was trying to get a better perspective for a photograph, and I stopped, and I was the first time I ever really remember feeling that and thinking, Oh, I have another reason to be careful now. And it was my daughter, you know, had been born, and that also changed the trajectory of the purpose of my work. And it wasn’t any longer just because it was something that inspired me and I just wanted to share it with other people for kind of selfish reasons, because I liked it, it was really more because I was trying to help inspire people to conserve nature for future generations, and the need to help protect the environment and all of our national our big Western national parks that kind of laid the foundation for the national park system that is not just now nationwide, but spread around the world. Started with Yosemite. In 1855 with the first tourist party, where Thomas Ayers did a series of drawings of Yosemite Valley that then were reproduced, and then that were photographers. And then one of the most famous artists in the country that time, Albert Bierstadt, came and painted. And then he was in his studio, he had a couple pieces of Yosemite, and that was when senators and congressmen and he, it’s also said that may have been Abraham Lincoln, may have been influenced. So the signing the Yosemite grant in 1864 was highly linked to that. And then our early parts like that became national parks like Yosemite in 1890 surrounding the Yosemite grand and then Yellowstone in 1872 and same with the Grand Canyon And mukuntu weep, which is actually Zion today, and so many other parks owe their existence to the works of artists spreading awareness to The public and to Congress and presidents that ultimately inspired legislative support that set aside those places. And today we can look at them as the places that most really get people inspired. I was reading The FASO Way, one of the things that Clint sends out, he sends out these wonderful writings that really are make you think. And today’s writing was from another writer, Laura, I have to look up the name again, but it was a really intriguing thought process of creativity and how humans have creativity that cannot be replicated with AI. And even more interesting than that was that humans ultimately unlearn creativity. The propensity and opportunity of creativity is much greater in young humans than it is as people age and we think we know things in the environment, we lose a sense of wonder and curiosity and just thinking about what if and why and how that we think of more when we’re younger. And I think national parks, because they’re so otherworldly, so beautiful, they’re places where we can experience wildlife that is dangerous, often deadly, that it gets our heart beating fast, makes us really take note and be like, Wow. And these giant cliffs and geysers and waterfalls and 3000 year old giant sequoia trees that think about the human history that’s occurred in one lifetime of one tree, and all these things that are just so inspiring to people, even the most jaded people who think they know what a tree is, or they know what the landscape is, they know what beauty is, and they Go to National Park, and they still just can’t help but hold back, you know, tears sometimes, or just keep their mouth closed as they know,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:50

yeah, yeah. That’s the beauty of, you know, going to the source, right? Going to nature. And also just hearing about how your, you know, your view of your subject matter has evolved over time, you know, from enthusiast down to really just wanting to Cheryl that there’s so many beautiful things that need to be protected and taken care of. And I’ve also, when I took my environmental science class in high school, they kept repeating the phrase like, We are the stewards of the earth. Because, you know, we’re, we have like the we’re like the top of the food chain at this point, and it is our duty and responsibility to maintain harmony within that food chain, because we have the wherewithal to do it. I mean, animals are just going to continue doing what they’re going to do, and humans are. We’ve been interrupting that for so long that it’s good to be conscious of our own consequences, of our own actions, and to protect and maintain the beautiful earth that is honestly like a miracle in so many senses. So I think it’s very inspiring to hear you know how your relationship to this, this very long term relationship with your subject matter, has evolved in a beautiful way. You know, thinking about future generations like that.

James McGrew: 44:10

There’s an old proverb, and it’s, I’ve seen it attributed to various different cultures, but it’s, it’s basically the same thing, and that is, take care of the earth. It wasn’t given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. And that’s really true.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:27

That hits hard, because it’s true. I mean, I constantly were like, Oh my gosh, what? What’s coming next, but I feel like that’s anyone who studies the environment. I think losing constant dread and anxiety about it one of the reasons I loved my environmental science class, but it was also like, you know what? I think I like not knowing sometimes, because

James McGrew: 44:50

it’s so true, I have that thought quite often, like, once you know, like when you’re just blindly seeing pretty things in nature, like, great. But then once you want. Understand the ecological complexity and the influence of, let’s say, endangered species. For example, you know, you think, Oh, that’s a pretty tree, or that’s a pretty animal or fish or whatever, and then you realize it’s completely destroying the ecosystem, because people brought it there. And you know, it’s like, once you know these things, you can’t unsee them, and then know them. And it does totally change your perspective of looking at the world. And there is definitely both a positive and a downside to that, actually, but it keeps me constantly driven to work harder and harder at not just painting better and better like that’s an endless, you know, trajectory, endless work, but also endless learning about my subject and being able to tell that story in the background, and especially today, this is one of the most pivotal moments. The rate that we’re losing species, species diversity, and everything is happening so incredibly fast, and most people are completely unaware, because we just don’t see it in the news. There’s so much other stuff that’s monopolizing news time that unless you’re really actively looking for it, you’re probably not aware of how much things are really happening and just how fast. So I try to keep up on that stuff and also incorporate that into my work. And like I said, I’m emotionally driven with it, in addition to the just the background,

Laura Arango Baier: 46:18

yeah, yeah, it’s the the so called 11th Hour. Oh, I remember that. That’s also very but you know, sometimes there is good news, environmental good news, which, you know, we always celebrate that, but in your time, oh yes, there’s actually a good amount of good news. It’s just, you know, it’s good to not be totally riddled with bad news. So I tend to follow you know, both the very serious news and then also the fortunately, much happier news about breakthroughs in science that are helping the environment, like the breakthroughs about, oh, we’ve come up with a way to undo microplastics, which I’m excited about, because I think that’s one of the biggest risks for the future of humanity, and it’s always been a risk for the environment and for animals. And yeah, anyway,

James McGrew: 47:11

I do incorporate, you know, my upcoming next show, for example, I do have a few paintings that I have actually coming out, so like the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibit, I have a painting of a of a juvenile, recently fledged California spotted owl. It’s just this downy little fuzz ball with these giant dark eyes. And you can’t help but like, have it melt your heart and just want to reach out and hug them. They’re just so adorably beautiful and cute, sweet and just heartwarming. And having spent a lot of time around them is just unbelievable. And they are in serious trouble. I paint a lot of California condors. I mean, they were down to like, 22 individuals left on the planet, and it’s been an incredibly intensive effort to just keep them live. And they’re still critically endangered. But you know that is, that is a really big issue that we are dealing with. But on the flip side of that, I try to remember that there’s a lot of stuff that’s really hopeful another species, the peregrine falcon, which has inspired me since I was a teen, and at that time, they were really critically endangered. Couldn’t see them in the wild. I mean, I remember reading Galen Raul’s write ups in National Geographic and his photography, as a photographer. He was a nature photographer and rock climber, and the story about how they were critically endangered because of DDT thinning their eggshells, and they were all dying, and they were crashing catastrophically globally. And this is the top predator of the skies, the fastest creature on earth. They fly at 240 miles an hour, and you know, they they’re not afraid of anything, and they’re just the most phenomenally incredible creatures to watch when they’re so not just fast, but agile, and they’re also incredibly intelligent. They’re related to parrots, not other raptors, and they have an incredibly high level of intelligence and creativity, problem solving, they use tools. They make toys. They work together as teams, male and female, mate for life, and they do all kinds of things together. And so the more time we spend in nature, the more we really see stuff that we may not otherwise notice. And it’s been spending hundreds of hours out where peregrine falcons live on the cliffs of my favorite national parks, and getting to observe them so much that I’ve observed those behaviors and watched juveniles learning to teach themselves to make toys and hunt and just things that you don’t really see written about otherwise. And that’s all come from just a lot of time in nature and observing nature. And in the 1970s there were no peregrine falcons in Yosemite they’d gone completely extinct locally and through intensive efforts of the Peregrine fund, funding things, the National Park Service and biologists, rock climbers and all these people working together, age. Educators, scientists, and of course, the Endangered Species Act was created in early 1970s DDT was banned and other organochloride pesticides. And so through all this cooperative work and understanding and research and funding, peregrine falcons were brought back from the brink and delisted in the late 1990s and now there are, like, 15 nesting pairs on average every year in Yosemite. And I’ve watched the same pairs returning to the same nest sites year after year, and watched them changing their hunting behaviors and their teaching behaviors with their children according to their Young’s different personalities and how many young they have. And it’s just, you know, this wonderful ray of hope to see what we can do when we put our minds to it, the works of artists and scientists and educators and and everybody. It’s never hopeless. You know, we see some stuff that, at times, can definitely make us feel kind of down, but it’s important to remember the potential that we have that’s so wonderful and that it can keep us going and keep us pursuing, helping to protect these things and inspire.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:11

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 23rd of April, with our special guest, Shana Levenson. You can find the sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BOLDBRUSH provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBUSH show.com. The FASO Podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year. Then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, yeah, and especially now that we are in the prime time of information, right? Like we are in the information age through and through, where we have direct access to everything online, just information wise. So it’s good to, not only, like before, just rely on, like, the really sad news on on the TV, it’s like, no you can also seek out, like, one, positive news two ways that you can also help support, you know, anything that has to do with wanting to support a cause, like with the Falcons or with any other species, because, yeah, people can do a lot of magic when they come together. And that’s what really matters. Yeah, absolutely insane. And I think the other beautiful thing is, of course, that you’ve been mixing, you know, these two aspects of, like, your love, which is like art and national parks. Was there a moment where you realize, like, Oh, I’m, you know, working as a park ranger, but I’m also making, like, a really good side income from painting. What was that like for you?

James McGrew: 54:36

It was actually the reverse my income as an artist, and was making the summer side income as a ranger, but I not at the very beginning, though, like the very first few years. Of course it was, it was always a struggle, and I did work much longer seasons with the Park Service. My first couple seasons, actually, I was still in grad school, so. So after my summer internship in Yosemite, I went to grad school, and then I had a couple of winters where I worked at Crater Lake National Park in Southern Oregon. I was at Southern Oregon University, and so on weekdays, I was at school, and then on weekends, I drive to the park and do snowshoe walks interpretive programs up at the park. And then once I graduated, went back down to Yosemite. And so it was initially, yes, there were longer seasons and and more reliant on that, but it wasn’t very long before I was, I was really doing a lot more of the painting and relying on that as a bigger source of income. But they still, they both still go hand in hand. And there are some ways we can reach people through visual arts beyond the scope of the immediate vicinity, the landscape. And there are ways that we can connect people in nature, right there in the moment. I mean, there’s no substitute for watching a bird dropping out of the sky at 200 miles an hour. Or watch a bear, you know, hunt something right in front of you. Or watch a mountain lion jump 15 feet in a single leap up a cliffside in complete silence and just disappear. Or have a great, great owl fly out of a tree and go right by you like a ghost without the slightest sound whatsoever. And they’re gigantic owls. You know, there’s just, there is no substitute for these kinds of experiences. And being able to share those with people on site and inspire them and teach them is really great, too. So I’ve always really liked the balance, regardless of what the income level is and it’s, it’s really the payment for me has always been seeing people smiling, seeing their eyes open wide and and seeing them connecting through every way that I can, I can manage to try and share what I can with people,

Laura Arango Baier: 56:51

yeah, yeah. And I’ve heard so many artists say the same, where they feel like Lucky, almost like, wow, I make money off of this thing that I really love, and I’m just doing it because it fulfills me and it makes me wake up happy every morning. And sure, we struggle with some paintings here and there, because no painting is ever in the park. They’re always a struggle in the park, but not always. But to a greater extent, though, it gives you a really good reason to get up in the morning and enjoy just being alive and the celebration of how every moment is a new moment. You know, the eternal Now, as they say, I think is, is one of those things that you know, unfortunately, we do need money to live unfortunately, but it is wonderful to have that as, like, almost like, the secondary reason, or even tertiary reason for painting and for, you know, being out in nature, which is extremely amazing. If I wanted

James McGrew: 58:01

to get rich, I wouldn’t try to be an artist or a park ranger or a teacher or an educator. You know, that’s never been the purpose for any of it, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:09

Yeah. It just feels like the lucky bonus that you get for doing what you love every day, which is extremely inspiring as well. Though. I think, you know, it’s, I feel like a lot of artists we have like this calling for it, right? It’s not like you said, like, if I wanted to be rich, this isn’t what I would do, but I do it because it is compulsory. It is what my my insides are screaming for. It’s I have no other thing that could ever fulfill me this deeply. And of course, money could never have that so but we still need it.

James McGrew: 58:44

It’s true. And even as an artist, though, it’s very easy to get derailed and sidetracked, and you do have to make a living. And I’ve, I’ve put two daughters through college, and they’re both adults now. And you know, it’s has not been an easy road, that’s for sure, and there’s a lot of pressure to, you know, make a living, not just for yourself, but supporting a family, and especially like in that case, when you’re raising kids, all completely dependent upon your income. And so it’s easy to get lost in terms of the focus. And you can be focused more on the income and the business side of stuff, and winning awards, or getting into a gallery, or getting recognition from your peers or from judges and or magazine articles. And you know, I’ve been very fortunate to achieve all of those things, but the times that I was really seeking them, I think the most because it just felt like I had to because I needed to support the family, and I was more focused on it for financial purposes than, you know, inside, some of the most important realizations in my career came when I kind of just forgot all about that and just said, That’s not what’s really important. And I remember in one of the Maui planner painting invitationals in 2020 and I’ve done most of the major invitationals on the western US for many years, and had a great time painting with wonderful artists and friends, and inspired to learn from them, and met so many wonderful collectors and so many wonderful people at the shows and the judges and and things. And I remember John Stern, who was the judge for Laguna Invitational for many, many years, and the Maui Invitational for many years, well respected writer, art critic and curator and everything and and it seemed to me, I was for a while, I was always trying to figure out what a judge had in mind when they were trying to figure out who to give an award to, or what painting to give an award to. And I’ve at times asked judges, okay, so what made you give my painting an award, or this one or over that one? And you know, sometimes our judges just say, I pick what I like, and that’s all they’re willing to say. Other times they’re they’re going to define it based on, you know, the objective criteria of design, composition, edge work, other than more intangible stuff, like the emotional connection that they had and and so I was always trying to figure these things out. And and I would see like, for example, what John was looking at for Best of Show paintings. And I realized so many of his awards had architectural things, just contemporary buildings and things in them. And like, well, that’s not really what I want to paint. I do paint really landmark architecture, really interesting Native American things and early national parks history and some of the grand lodges and things like that. But for the most part, I’m painting nature without human influence as much as I can, as pristine as possible. And so I thought, you know, it’s just it’s not going to work. He’s never going to give me an award. And so in 2021 I went to Maui. Told my family before I left, I’m not expecting awards. I’m not looking for awards. I’m not looking for sales. And I don’t care what happens. I I just really, really need to paint from my heart and paint what’s really important to me. And because of what’s going on in the Hawaiian Islands, the rate of extinction is incredibly high because of island biogeography and all the introduced species and how fast things are disappearing. So I made it a goal to find and paint and incorporate endangered species into every painting that I did during that week, and I largely stayed away from people doing things on my own. I mean, of course I tended to paint out some things, but I managed to get a permit to go up to the summit of Haleakala and drive up there in the evening, did a painting at sunset, drove down and camped at night, howling wind and driving horizontal rain all night long. Woke up in the morning. It was still crazy weather. Drove up to the summit, 3000 feet up, and you got to the summit, we were way above the storm clouds. It was crystal clear, no wind, totally calm. You could see a blanket of storm all around the island below. I started hiking at dawn. Hiked a few miles down into the crater, walking on one inch tall frost crystals on the trail. It was just the biggest crystals I’d ever seen. And as I got down into the crater, there was nobody around, no sound. Is the only time in my life I’ve been on this planet and heard nothing, no airplanes overhead, no birds, no wind, no insects, no voices, no cars. It was the most magically peaceful, incredibly beautiful experience as I watched the sun come up stream over the fog into the valley, into the crater there caldera and and then I intentionally put some endangered plants in the foreground. The Haleakala Silver Sword lives and is endemic only to the summit of Haleakala and nowhere else in the world, and they are critically endangered because of the risk of climate change pushing their habitat up higher and higher, and they’re basically going to run out of habitat pretty soon, but also grazing and the harvest and habitat damage and things and so it was really important. So throughout the rest of the event, I painted green sea turtles, Hanu and the scarlet honey creeper, Ev and Nene, the Hawaiian goose, and just, you know, all these endangered species, I was really fortunate to be able to find I did, like, months of research leading up to that, to figure out where they were. And I couldn’t take credit for it either. I mean, people helped me out a lot to be able to get to places and know where things were. And I submitted the pieces to the show without expecting anything to come of it, except I just wanted to tell the story. And my daughter flew out, my younger daughter, Janelle, and. And she forgot her her clothes for the gala that night, so we had to go shopping in Lahaina, and we’re going from store to store and trying to find stuff for us. We’re late coming in. And some friends, when I got there, said, Congratulations. And I said, what? You know, I didn’t expect anything. And I said, Did I win something? And she said, you kind of want everything, but I had, I had actually won the Best of Show from John stern and the for that painting up in Haleakala, also the honor Hawaii, honor Maui award, collective Choice Award, and some other awards. And I just that was really important for me, because I realized at the moment that we and, and it wasn’t like I just came at this on my own, like I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me, like she was saying, like, you gotta, you gotta, just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true, and I that’s exactly what I did for that show, but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit to that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work, and, you know, getting those, those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:30

beautiful, yes, yeah. I think that’s definitely something that I relate to. And I think many of our listeners will definitely relate to that feeling of, oh, if I, you know, get into this show, or, like, if I try to win this one award, then I’ll feel like I’ve really made it as an artist, and I can, you know, put it on my website and my CV, and feel like I’ve accomplished something. But oftentimes, I’ve met a lot of people who feel like a sense of emptiness afterward, where it’s like, maybe they’ve won the award, but then the high kind of gets lost because, I mean, yeah, you won the award, people move on. I mean, everyone else is going to move on too and try to win their other awards over there. And you might as well do it with work that you actually love to do, and if you win, that’s, once again, the bonus, right? The secondary bonus. So I think it’s very inspiring and very on brand for you to suddenly stubbornly persist with your vision. I think of yourself, you know, at that teacher is like, yeah, no, this is my vision. I’m just gonna stubbornly pursue it, and it will reach the right people. And that’s what counts, you know, yeah, and actually speaking of reaching the right people when, like, how was it for you? Like, how did you find your first collectors? And then what did you learn about that process that has helped you? I guess today in your career,

James McGrew: 1:08:07

I was just putting my work out there. I mean, I I just tried to get get my work into galleries, and figured that was the avenue to do so. And I was fortunate that that did kind of work and enough people. I mean, of course, I got turned down from places and shows all the time, like everybody, and I shouldn’t say everybody. I know some people that you know have incredible opportunities all the time, but there were lots of things that didn’t work out. But the ones that did, I just kept focusing on those and moving forward and and I felt like, the funny thing is, early on in my career, I was in that place where I didn’t think about sales, I didn’t think about any kind of recognition or anything, and I was only focused on just painting from the heart, what I love to do, and the stories I wanted to tell. And then over time, because I had to make the living and I had to support a family, is when I got sidetracked, I think, and having to think about the other stuff. And, you know, a number of years ago, really made that full circle transition to the realization that the awards and everything are great and the sales are, you know, great, but the bottom line is, if you just speak from the heart and you’re authentic and do what you did this for in the first place, hopefully things will work. And if it’s inspiring you, it’s probably going to inspire somebody else. If you’re working hard enough at it, and you’re really putting enough out there, it’s probably going to connect with somebody somewhere. And I just try to, and I realize that, you know, most of my work probably won’t connect with people, and that’s okay, but the ones that do, I’m really grateful for every one of those opportunities and those connections. And you know, obviously when somebody buys a painting, that’s always such a wonderful recognition. And I have some collectors that, you know, just brand new, collectors that have bought one painting, sometimes through a gallery, sometimes directly, sometimes from a plein air event, and they, you know, meet me while painting on site, or they see me painting out in a national park. And I give him a card and and say, Well, you know, I’m in these galleries, and you can go see my work over here. And because you can’t ever sell a painting in a national park, so that’s illegal, only concessions can sell in a national park. So I’ve never sold a painting in a national park. I’ve always just, you know, say, you know, if I’m inside, like, well, there’s the Worthington gallery in Springdale or in Grand Canyon, like over at cold studio, if I’m in Yosemite is like at the Ansel Adams Gallery. And, you know, wherever I am, I just refer people to something, but I forgot where I was going with that. Collectors. Oh yes, collectors, how to connect with those connectors. So, you know, it’s just, I think being present, being out there, putting your work in galleries, but then also doing plein air events was a huge door to open up a lot of avenues to collectors. Other galleries, other show invitationals came about that way. And I have had so many other opportunities arise because of those. And plein air events can be incredibly exhausting. It’s a huge amount of work and intensive painting in a short amount of time and subject to the weather and conditions that occur at that time, many of them have quick draws, and so you’ve got two hours to paint a painting, and I would often do like a 12 by 24 it’s about as big as I could do on a two hour window, and that required a huge amount of focus ahead of time. I’d usually have to think it through, visualize it in my mind, usually after a week of painting in that location, whichever park it was in, and and then just give it everything I had for two hours, and I could practically fall over and pass out afterwards. I just, you know, so much energy goes into painting in those situations, but to have the crowds around connecting and talking with you and and seeing the landscape and everything, that’s a really valuable opportunity to help inspire people and get people not just to connect to the work, but also to realize the relationship that artists and art have had with the preservation and public awareness of our national parks and the environment as a whole. And so I really value that opportunity. I’m always grateful for those those chances and those meetings and in those collectors so a lot of my collector base kind of came about that way. Some of them from other big national shows, like the American impressionist society national exhibit and OPA and the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit and and things like that. And and then International, you know, online competitions, the art salon, and they actually just bought one of my pieces for their permanent collection for this year’s exhibit. And so I’m excited for that show. And so we just, you know, every time you just, I think, if you just paint and put your heart in to it and put enough work out there and let enough people see it, it’s bound to connect with somebody at some point. And that’s just kind of a chain reaction that keeps building. If you keep keep at it, and keep putting it out there and keep continually working at it,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:09

yes, yeah, there’s no instant gratification. There no

James McGrew: 1:13:13

it’s a long, long process. And like, I’m especially grateful for my long term collectors. And I have one couple in California that has over 30 paintings, and you walk into their house and it’s filled with some of the best artists who have paint California like their whole house is a museum floor to ceiling. Actually have a few collectors that have lots of you know, paintings in their walls like that, just jam, salon style everywhere. And then I have collectors that have, you know, one painting per wall and just an assortment of different types, and some that can only, you know, afford a small piece. And I really value every one of those and along the whole spectrum,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:57

yeah, yeah. I mean anyone who can appreciate a painting and hang it up on their wall and live with it every day, right? See this painting every day. I think it’s, it’s an honor. It is, yeah, yeah. And actually did want to ask you, because you did so much, really tough public speaking learning on the go, do you find that there are elements of your your time, you know, doing public speaking at the parks that you pull into your career as an artist that has helped you with speaking to people about your work, absolutely.

James McGrew: 1:14:32

And you know, on one hand, art should speak for itself, and you know, oftentimes it does, and a lot of artists are pretty shy and don’t like to go to show openings and things like that, or do a podcast like this, or teach a workshop, or get on stage at plein air convention and do a demo, or, you know, things, but I and I wouldn’t have had I not had that background in environmental education. Education and doing interpretation so much, I think it would, or at least I think it would have probably been a lot more difficult and but I mean, there’s it’s not just comfort and the ease of being able to talk to people. When it comes to doing an interpretive program, it’s a lot of years of learning the techniques to actually build it structurally and and really be able to maximize your ability to reach the widest audience, to really connect with those people, no matter where they are in the political spectrum or their cultural background, or where they’re coming from in the world their age, there’s just so many variables that come into play and and those things, maybe they come naturally to a lot of people, but at least for me, it took a lot of work and a lot of practice and a lot of learning from other masters at teaching and and constantly trying to learn those things. And I found them really important for especially teaching workshops, doing demos at events and and just talking to people at a show opening reception. Many, many people I’ve talked to have considered a painting, but when you’re talking about plunking down 1000s of dollars for a work of art, they want to know more than just what’s the signature on the painting, how pretty is the painting? What’s the status, what’s the you know, what’s the significance. They want a connection with the artist too, and they can read about it, they can listen to a podcast like this, but there’s no substitute for one on one, actual communications and seeing the artist process in the field, talking to the artists at a show, opening reception. And so many collectors have said that that was really important for them, and in many of my collectors, over time, have become very good friends, and I’m really grateful for those friendships, and obviously grateful for the sales, but I’m even much more grateful for the friendships that I’ve developed, and the fact that so many of them tell me that they just really love being able to See my work on the walls, and it takes them to whatever park it is that I have a painting of, and reminds them of their experiences there, or inspires them to go up again. And for me, that’s that’s the most valuable thing when they’re sharing those those meaningful feelings and moments and what the work does for them and how it inspires them to make changes, ultimately, beautiful.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:27

Yeah, yeah. I think there’s so much about, like you said, there’s so many young artists who are introverted, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think many of us are quite introverted,

James McGrew: 1:17:39

but having I’m totally introverted. Oh yeah, me too, which is fine to learn how to break through that, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:46

yeah, you have to. I mean, a lot of the career of being an artist, besides painting, which is honestly one of the hardest parts, but it is literally like the given right for the career, like you have to have good work. You also have to be personable. You have to know how to talk to other people. Have, you know, like, not be afraid to be vulnerable and connect with people and even face, you know, the tough criticisms that come with it, like, Oh, someone might literally come up to you and be like, Oh, your work is really bad. It’s like, Oh, thanks. You just you have to, like, be like, Oh, thank you. Why do you think that you know or, like, just, you know it’s gonna happen, and you have to learn to not take it personally. Like, there’s a lot of interpersonal relationships that happen as an artist, especially if that’s like, the career that someone is pursuing. Yeah, and actually, this segues perfectly into my next question, which is, what advice would you give to someone who wants to pursue being an artist as their career?

James McGrew: 1:18:50

Well, the kind of things we’ve kind of covered so far, so if I could just kind of summarize them, I mean, obviously, be authentic and true to yourself. That’s number one. And because if you’re trying to fake something, it’s just not going to work. You have to speak from experience, and you have to speak from the heart and paint what you know, you know. And that is really number one. Number two is just the mileage. There’s no substitute for time in nature. Time painting from life. Doesn’t matter what your subject is. You know, figure painters doing life drawings, life paintings in Figure sessions. I tell kids all the time, like, if you draw or paint with one hand and all you have is the other hand, we’ll draw that or your pet or your sibling or the view out your backyard window. And like, we can’t always be it’s expensive and it’s difficult to get to national parks, especially with, you know, the advent of social media and crowding that we have today and stuff. So we can’t always, like, go to these incredible places that are super inspirational. Like, we can find beauty every day all around us, and we can find subjects to draw and paint and. Right? And the purpose of working from life so valuable. And I always tell people don’t work from photographs until you’ve painted enough paintings and taking photos at the same time to be able to see where and how and why. The human visual processing system is different than a camera recording system. And then once you’ve done enough of that, you can really know how to manipulate and adjust photos and incorporate them, and there’s nothing wrong with using them. The greatest masters of the 19th century all use photography. No matter how well they could draw the human figure or the landscape, they still use photography, and it’s just a matter of being able to know when and how to make those corrections and adjustments. One other thing about the importance of painting in nature and spending time in nature is we talked about plan art painting. But there’s one thing to just go out and paint outside. That’s another thing to really be present when you’re out in nature. Slow down, focus on everything around you and just really be in touch with everything and open up all of your senses. Be really mindful and be aware of the way you feel, the way the sun is or the wind on your skin, the smells that you’re smelling, the fragrances the flowers that are blooming nearby, or the way that light changes and shifts, and the way that an animal moves, or the way a bird, you know, song is actually I’m hearing bird songs running right now, you know, singing, or all these different things that ultimately come into play, And there is no substitute for time in nature, painting and drawing direct from life, but also just observation, like Asher B Durand and like all these 19th century masters talk about the importance of just studying nature, and part of that is book studying. We talked about my school background, but way more important that is just the observation and really connecting and opening yourself up and being really present without being distracted with other stuff, or, you know, what’s going on in the internet, or your music you’re listening to, or whatever, we just really, really be present in that I have found to be invaluable with really slowing down and incorporating a lot more into my mind and experiencing more, seeing more along the way too. But then also, like we were talking about, the other side that’s really valuable is that interpersonal communication, being open, listening to everybody, incorporating other people’s perspectives and opinions and not taking things personally. You know, I mean, we’ve all done that. We’ve been there at times and taken criticism really painfully from a show rejection or a gallery rejection and or something not working out or appear, not recognizing your work or whatever. And like, I don’t really pay attention anymore on social media. And for a long time, a long time ago, it seemed like it did matter. But now I just use it when I I want to put something out there to try and connect people with the subject that I’m painting, you know, add the interpretive, environmental story behind my work, or help other artists with questions that they have about materials, techniques or or things like that. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s all about just helping others, listening to others, sharing, and trying to just tell the story that of what inspires my work. And then, of course, the the business side of just straight making sales. You know, you really I greatly value and respect and trust all of my galleries, and that’s a really important relationship. They trust me. We have good relationships. We know we’re not going to take each other’s sales or, you know, or undermine something. And you know, somebody sees a painting in a gallery, and you know, they see my work later, I will give the commission to the gallery, and the galleries know that, and I think that’s really important to build that trust. And I really genuinely, like all the people who are the directors and owners of my galleries, and it’s taken a long time working. I mean, it’s hard to even get into a gallery when you’re starting out and and it’s hard to find the galleries that you can trust and and I’ve had some less than favorable experiences of some galleries that were not trustworthy. And, you know, obviously I’m not in those galleries anymore, and but all the galleries that I’m in now, I really, really value those relationships, and so it’s important to find those connections that you trust. And then there’s the stuff that we can do, like we’re doing right now. FASO is an incredibly valuable tool, and it’s not just because you are interviewing me on behalf of FASO, but I do have to say that genuinely, the things that you guys do are invaluable to. Marketing into making sales from this podcast, listening to your interviews, listening to my friends and other artists that I’ve worked with. Some are, you know, just acquaintances. Some are really good friends that you interview, and it’s always fun to learn from them and gather more bits of information here and there, or just, you know, see, that’s so cool. You know, I watched their career develop, too, and but then also the marketing that you guys do on social media, your own marketing, the the collectors alerts. So when people sign up for my newsletter, which is the most important way to connect with my collectors, and you know my newsletters that I send out is the most important way that people get the majority of info for upcoming workshops, from upcoming shows, things that I’ve had happen and and then when people sign up for that, they also have the opportunity to sign up for new artwork alerts. And so every time I put a painting on my website, I get emails from people inquiring about a piece. And, you know, people buy paintings that way all the time, and most time they’re headed to galleries. So the galleries make the sales, and oftentimes before they even get there, and it’s because of the the artwork alerts that you guys put out there. So anyway, and every way that we can put our work out there is valuable and and I have to say it’s you guys are a really valuable tool in that, that that toolkit,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:31

yeah, well, we’re really happy to hear that. I also use all of the my websites, also FASO website, and objectively, you know, I know that I’m obviously, like their host for their podcast, but I also really benefit a lot from using a FASO website. And it’s just, it’s it’s intuitive, it’s easy to use, and they’re always improving it. The team is really great. It’s a small team. They’re always happy to help. And I think in the end, you know, that’s better than you know, going for a bigger company where, like, you’re talking to an AI Chatbot. No hate on AI chatbots, but I think talking to a real person is a million times better

James McGrew: 1:27:10

or trying to design something yourself. Like, you know, I’d much rather have a paintbrush in my hand and be out in nature than on a computer screen.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:27:16

So Exactly, yeah, even though now FASO does have both capabilities, because they have a Squarespace option, where that is a FASO site, but with, like, the capabilities of the Squarespace, like changing it however you want. But for the most part, I think it’s also, I’m totally with you. It’s like, but

James McGrew: 1:27:34

that’s a relatively new invention, like, when I first developed this website a long time ago, it was either learn code, hire a professional, or your guys’s templates, and that made things such an easy segue into being able to put my work out there without all the other stuff. You know, hiring a professional meant having to constantly interact with them as a third party, having the FASO website, you can do it on your own whenever you want, and that’s super, super valuable, without having to know how to do the coding most time.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:09

Yeah, exactly, yeah. They really got rid of the gatekeeping of like, oh, well, in order to be a professional, you need to have, like, certain money to hire a coder to do your website. Instead, it’s like, Oh, you just pay for a website, and you already have these templates, which super great again, for anyone who wants to save time and use that time in the studio, like many of us. But yeah, really happy that that you’ve enjoyed it. And actually, that’s my next question, which is, of course, on your website, I’m sure you have this information. But do you have a year would you like to tell us about your upcoming shows? Or do you have any upcoming workshops? Anything you got going on that you’d

James McGrew: 1:28:51

like to promote? Sure, thank you. So workshops, nothing really set right now, but I am discussing things and for a workshop in Yosemite. So if anybody’s interested, just have them send me a message to my website. I’ll be compiling a list, so I’ll make sure I get those people aware when we do start setting stuff up. But as far as upcoming shows, I have the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit this summer down in Southern California, the the art salon in New York at the summer as well, and then this fall, I have shows in Grand Canyon and Zion invitationals for those two incredible places. I always have an annual show at one of my galleries in Berkeley, Holton Studio Gallery. They have an annual all Artist gallery. They have an incredible group of artists, and they make these beautiful solid oak and walnut frames. So we just send them the paintings, and they make the frames. They design them for the work. And it’s incredible opportunity there. And then the most impressive thing I’m working on right now is for my solo show that opens at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite. And. And that actually opens on May the fourth, and it hangs for almost couple months. And so that’s like the painting behind me right now, and that’s what I’ve been working really long hours, like 12 to 15 hour days the last couple of weeks to get things together for that upcoming show. And then I always have to provide for my galleries, Del Monte fine art in Carmel and Holton in Berkeley, Worthington gallery in Springdale, right outside of Zion and and then, of course, the antelopes gallery in Yosemite. And so it’s kind of juggling all those things and planning things far enough out, but right now, it’s, it’s really intense for an upcoming solo show.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:30:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thank you for being here despite I know how busy you’ve been. Seems like it’s been really hectic for you, so I’m really grateful that you were able to spare some some of your precious time for us here on the podcast.

James McGrew: 1:31:02

Thank you. My pleasure being here, and I really appreciate the opportunity, and I’m honored. And you know, it’s great to have the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:11

Yeah, of course, it was wonderful. And actually, before you go, do you mind telling us what your website and social media are?

James McGrew: 1:31:17

Sure? So at James McGrew fine art for social and Facebook and Instagram. I’m working on others, but haven’t had the time to put those together yet on other platforms and then. But my main place to go that is updated by far the most frequently and is absolutely the most important way to connect, is my website, and it’s James McGrew, fine art, com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:43

awesome, perfect. And I will include all of your links in the show notes as well. For anyone who’s just listening, go check out his work. It is absolutely breathtaking. Don’t miss out. And then if you can go see his work in person, real life, go check it out. So thank you.

James McGrew: 1:31:57

That is actually pretty important. Paintings do look different on screen than they do in person. I do a lot of work to try and create optical illusions with the working properties of my paint that can’t be replicated other ways.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:32:12

Just size wise, it really compresses everything into a different feeling. I mean that like you can’t really capture grandeur in such a small screen, you know, like you have to go see it in person. You know, as much as you can, if anyone really can afford to go do that or is nearby to one of the places where your work is for sure, go check.

James McGrew: 1:32:34

And another great opportunity with the website is the ability to write an artist statement for each painting and like, especially for my upcoming show here with all the interpretive environmental messages behind each important piece in the show, I do write a lot on the website, and that gives me wonderful opportunity to let people read all that information and make those connections so awesome. Be sure to read the interpretive stuff with it too.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:02

Yes, for sure, awesome. Well, thank you so much again, James, and I’m really happy it didn’t rain on us today outdoors, as you should be,

James McGrew: 1:33:13

started working outside and even on studio pieces more than 10 years ago, just because it’s closer to the plein air experience and don’t have to worry about when I do use solvents in the early stages of a painting. I don’t ever use solvents indoors anymore.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:27

So very smart, man. Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

“Beauty will Save the World” — Fyodor Dostoevsky

Three figures sit around a table, their bodies inclined toward one another, in communion around a shared cup. At first glance, the work feels flat. It is painted in reverse perspective, and thus, all lines converge, not at the horizon, but, instead, they point to you, the viewer. The longer you look, the less it feels like you are observing a scene and the more it feels like you are being drawn into it. Its stillness is not static but inviting; expectant. Then you notice the negative space between the three figures — it forms the outline of a chalice: The trio is the cup.

And suddenly, you realize you are the fourth person at the table and are being invited to drink from this sacred cup of Divine Love and Beauty. You are being invited to commune with the Holy Trinity — invited to sit at the table, as an equal, and drink.

This is the Trinity Icon, often called the greatest icon ever painted, and it was never meant to be merely seen because, unlike an image, an icon contains power. An icon empowers us to transport ourselves into a deeper reality — it bestows us with the power to leave the shadowlands of outer darkness and enter the true reality of inner light.

Images can be seen, but icons are known. Seeing may be believing, but beliefs are often false; beliefs are limiting. Knowing is always true and unlimited.

If you have an image on your computer’s desktop, you can click it all you want, but it will never be more than an image. However, if you click an icon on your desktop, what happens?

It turns out that the icon isn’t just an image but is instead a wondrous doorway that opens up into a deeper reality of a full application, a rich experience that allows you to use your creativity to accomplish something, to experience something, or to enter another world.

Beauty does that for us in the real world, transporting us to the more real kingdom of The Mystery that hides in plain sight behind all. And every true work of Art – art that depicts beauty – has the power to serve as an icon.

There are many mystery schools and mystic traditions in the world that share esoteric knowledge and practices with initiates — once the initiate has properly prepared himself. These practices point the way to dissolving the false self and entering into the true reality of The Mystery. Art, through Beauty, represents what I call The Mystery School of the Aesthetic.

When you enter into the “heavenly mysteries,” you, as an artist, are called to come back and express what you’ve experienced. True Art honors the first rule of the Mystery schools: As above, so below; on earth as it is in heaven.

Natural creation, under the hand of The Divine, expresses certain “heavenly” elements of beauty at all scales: The Fibonacci sequence of numbers where each number is the sum of the previous two numbers. The Golden Ratio, phi, which is approximately 1.618 and is related in interesting ways to the Fibonacci sequence. We find pi (~22/7) appearing again and again throughout nature. This is not mere coincidence. Simply observing nature, we see symmetry, balance, proportion, spirals, fractals. We see order. We see complexity. We see the logos. We see beauty. And, importantly, as the universe evolves, these beautiful truths are increasing.

Through these, and other, repeating elements of beauty, nature whispers something of the Heavenly mysteries and these elements tell us something about the nature of creation. Nature points to heaven. It is called nature because it reflects heaven’s nature. And the nature of heaven is also the nature of our soul. So too, should our Art reflect these beautiful, mysterious Truths. Our Art contributes to the charge, given around another table with a shared cup — a charge to build the new earth: on earth as it is in heaven.

Beauty reveals the ultimate Truth because Beauty is the ultimate Truth. And your Art is part of it.

Beauty is truth, truth beauty — that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. — Keats

The themes in this piece are the same ideas I explore in my forthcoming book, The Sovereign Artist. If that is of interest to you, please click here to join the waitlist.

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Transcript:

Olya Konell 00:00

Welcome everybody to The FASO Show. You made it through. You survived. Normally, we have a much larger attendance, and I’m sure it has to do with the fact that we switch things up. So there’s always a little bit of like, hey, you know, email went to spam. So thank you for coming. We will be sending the recording out next week FASO customers get it in their the Marketing Center, in their dashboard. Or you can be subscribed to the sub stack newsletter The FASO Way, and you can get it there too. Or you can go visit that site and just click on it and watch it. So if you have to leave early, that’s where you will find it. And today, we have a very special guest. Can’t talk Shana Levinson, we had some technical issues, and so if at any point in time her video drops, we’re just gonna hang out and wait for her to pop back. Yeah, I like she mentioned, the power went out. So she is improvising and using her cell phone through her computer to get logged in. So a quick little bit I like to do about FASO. FASO, we are a website company. We we have artists. Can build a website through FASO, kind of like a Squarespace or Wix, but it’s specific to artists, and I’m going to be dropping some links in the chat if you’re curious about FASO, we’re actually sharing shayna’s affiliate links. So through Shana, you can get FASO for a year for $99, use her special link - https://l.faso.com/104 you can also do a 30 day free trial, and you can just go to FASO.com and learn a little bit more if you’re curious. But let’s get let’s get started. So welcome, Shana. Thank you for Thank you.

Shana Levenson 01:44

Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah.

Olya Konell 01:47

I thank you for our survey.

Shana Levenson 01:50

Thank you. Yeah, I know I just opened up my windows, which actually anybody that studied with me or knows has heard me talk, I actually keep my windows closed. They’re blackout shades, because my studio has daylight corrected light bulbs, so the light is consistent at all time. So I’m, I’m grateful to actually have these large windows for today, so that there’s light for you guys to be able to see me while Yeah, is out

Olya Konell 02:14

here absolutely and interesting that you say that totally not even the list of anchor questions that I had, but I hate, I love, I have a love, hate relationship with paintings that you’ve been working on for like, we’re working on something over a long duration of time, and if you’re using daylight, you come in the next morning and you’re like, No, that’s not right, because you painted it last night. And so that’s awesome that you have that controlled environment to be able to do that, which clearly is noticeable, because when I look at your hands and, like, when you do your veins, you know, and those little tendons and details, I’m like, dang, that is, like, consistently accurate, because that’s what always would mess me up, as skin tones, as time, as the as the lighting changes in the studio space.

Shana Levenson 02:59

So, yeah, I don’t know why people like to fight the light. I get the romance of it and the history of it, but for me, I just want consistency. Because if I’m in a pain at six in the morning, I want the light to be the same as if I’m painting at like, six o’clock at night. So it just stays the same.

Olya Konell 03:13

I love that. Do you have a recommendation for what bulbs that you use

Shana Levenson 03:16

or is, yeah, there I, you know, I the I need to look up the name of it, the T 90s, or we hadn’t. We might have had to get a different type. But they are, like, they’re basically warehouse, those lights up here, yeah, you can see, like, right here, yeah. So I have six of them, and the light that the light is just like, the perfect temperature for the paintings. They don’t provide, they don’t give any glare when I’m working, which is always tough with like Windows, you know, because I’m going to be working today in the dark, and so I’m gonna have to figure out how to not get glare on my painting while I’m painting today

Olya Konell 03:53

in the studio. Oh, my God, ideal. Yeah, yeah, no, that is a really good tip. And I guess I’m going to dive into my first question that I had for you. And just a quick heads up to everybody, this is a Q A session, so I want y’all to ask your burning questions. Feel free to drop them into the Q amp a box. You can also share them in the chat. This webinar isn’t you know, in on any specific topic, it is to connect you with Shayna, to learn from her, to figure out her teaching style, and see if you know this is somebody that you know you want to take a workshop with, or maybe you want to read her newsletter, or follow her on social media or whatever, to kind of learn from her. Because artists, we have a long history of learning from those that came before us. I mean, that’s how artists learn, and whether they go to professional Academy, or or or or not, they continue learning. You know, when they get out and they and artists just, that’s just what we do. So this is just our way of doing that in 2026

Shana Levenson 04:57

yeah, I hope I’m always learning. I’m, you know, pushing myself, because. Is, you can never learn too much, and you can always change things up. It’s always fun to find, like, new paint colors, new styles, yeah,

Olya Konell 05:07

new ways of doing something, or Yeah, being absolutely I love that. So we didn’t do an official introduction, but I would love for you just to share a little bit about who you are and what you do, and we’ll do,

Shana Levenson 05:20

yeah, I’m Shana Levinson. I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico with my husband, David Casson, and my two teenagers. Actually, one of my teenagers just left. He’s 16. He’s in boarding school now in New Jersey, but I have my 17 year old, my 17 year old girl here, and two dogs and two cats. So we have a full house here. I’m originally from Austin, Texas. My undergrad is from the University of Texas in fashion design. I originally wanted to work for Donna Karan or Alexander McQueen. I just loved elegant styles and different textures, which I started. If you follow my work, you could see that I love fabric and jewelry and all that kind of stuff within my paintings. Eventually, though I did eventually, once we moved to Albuquerque, me and my ex husband, I started once my son was one years old, I started taking classes at the Academy of Art in San Francisco over correspondence. Previous to that, all of my art was self taught. So when I found this program, I was like, This is so perfect, because I could be at home with my kids, and I can learn online. And the program that they have was really in depth. The teachers were interactive. We were filming ourselves. It was just they were really great and teaching us how to work at, you know, at a distance, and so that really guided me into my direction of portraiture and realism. And learning online was actually a huge guide for me when covid hit, because then I started teaching online, and everything I learned from the Academy of Art and how they taught online really helped how I taught online during covid, so that was really helpful. In the midst of me getting my degree, my master’s, I got divorced, and then started teaching little kids art classes. Finished my master’s, and then gradually started teaching teenagers, and then eventually adults, and got picked up in my first gallery in 2018 in Santa Fe and started slowly selling my work and increasing my prices and realizing the value of social media, because you really can have the ability to connect with a broader audience that can’t see your work necessarily in person, but want to collect your work. So found a really incredible collector base through social media. And yeah, I’m able to travel with my husband and teach workshops all over and paint full time. And as you all know, it’s not an easy job, because you never know when your next sale is going to come or but the that little bit of hustle and that little bit of fear, I guess, is what pushes me to work that much harder. So yeah,

Olya Konell 08:09

I love that. I heard something saying urgency is a great motivator, and I agree urgency is a great motivator, indeed, yeah, yeah. And I love your story, because it’s like, every single day we talk to artists that are like, they’re at the point where you were, when you were, you know, before you got your first gallery, right? They’re at that point. Maybe they’re teaching something, maybe they’re doing something. Maybe they’re getting some orders here and there for commissions. Maybe, you know, they sold something at a fair here and there. So so many of you guys that are listening are at that point. And one thing I need to make a point of that’s not age specific, like the art path is not linear, and you’ll see artists that peak early in life. And, you know, wait, peak early in life, you’ll see artists that peak later in life. So doesn’t matter how old you are, because I follow some amazing older artists. If there’s any older artists in our audience that just exploded overnight, you know, in their 70s, in their 80s, because they’re still doing it, because they have not given up. So, you know, I really want to drive that point home.

Shana Levenson 09:20

So because, Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, I teach so many students of all age ranges, of people who’ve, like, spent their time raising children and then later in life, eventually, finally, get back into creating art again. And so it’s never too late, you know, we’re all in a different place in our path. Because I always think that I started later, even though I was always drawing and painting my Well, not really painting, drawing mostly my whole life, and then teaching myself how to paint in the beginning, I just felt like I kind of came into the art world in an unconventional way, not necessarily the academic path that a lot of well known artists come through. So I just want to be that kind of voice for people. I apologize for my dog. I want to be the voice for people who maybe get their get become an artist in a unique way.

Olya Konell 10:09

Absolutely, yeah, because there isn’t the especially in today’s world with technology and the ability to learn online, close my door. Oh, that’s

Shana Levenson 10:21

sorry, guys, muscle the dogs, dogs,

Olya Konell 10:26

and do you still teach on online, or more of your in more in

Shana Levenson 10:30

person now, but I mentor, I have meant mentees all over the world, Australia, wow. Some people I did for years, and you know, I have a couple of mentees that were that are now showing in major galleries and selling their work, and it just really kind of neat to see them thriving from me just pushing them in direction. You know, it’s that one little thing that you can tell somebody like, Hey, you just do this or this or this, and then they can go off on their own. So I love being able to encourage, and it’s mostly women that I mentor, but encourage people to find their path, you know what I mean, and keep pushing them forward. So, yeah, I mentor, I do a few online workshops. Maybe I think the last one I did was a hand painting online demo, and that’s a recorded one that I have on my Big Cartel page. But other than that, I just love connecting and teaching in person.

Olya Konell 11:28

Okay, and so your Big Cartel page, if I was to find it, I’m just it

Shana Levenson 11:33

would be recorded. If you go to print, you can go to Prince, you know, on there,

Olya Konell 11:41

it will be in Yeah,

Shana Levenson 11:43

you can go on there, yeah, okay, workshops, workshops. See teaching, or see original workshop at the very bottom. Go to the bottom.

Olya Konell 11:57

I just can’t see Perfect, okay, yeah, I wanted to grab that and share it.

Shana Levenson 12:02

So, yeah, so you can see, like, all the bottom ones I’ve recorded. So, like, that’s really a lot balloons, how to paint dark skin, how to draw. So all those are previously recorded that I did during covid. So those are awesome people that purchase those. They’ll get they’ll get three different or they’ll get a couple YouTube links, and they get to see the whole demo, and keep the demo, and they get the reference as well.

Olya Konell 12:26

And you have, and going back to what you were saying about loving, loving fabrics, that is such like, it’s all over, like, texture and fabric, I could just tell you’re drawn to that, you know. Plus you have an amazing, beautiful sense of fashion yourself. You’re always like, so put together in such a beautiful, unique way. But definitely in your work, like it’s, it’s just amazing how you do lace I, I can’t, that’s

Shana Levenson 12:53

the one, yeah, that’s the one fabric workshop I’ve taught, which next weekend I’m traveling to Monterey, Mexico to teach a lace painting workshop. Oh, wow.

Olya Konell 13:01

That’s That’s cool, yeah, yeah.

Shana Levenson 13:03

And that class is filled up, so I’m excited to I’ve never been to Monterey. I’ve heard it’s beautiful. In October, I taught a lace painting workshop in Mexico City. So yeah, I’m excited to go to Mexico in a

Olya Konell 13:15

different place. So yeah. And if anybody wants to see more of shana’s work. If you go to her website, you can click on collections, and I’m just going to share that link again. You can also check out her Instagram for kind of like, what she’s working on in the studio, which, like you said, you have a lot of stuff that still needs to pop up on your side,

Shana Levenson 13:35

but yeah, yeah, I know I need to update my FASO. So, yeah, no.

Olya Konell 13:40

Um, so So this, everything we’re talking about right now, is your office actually on the topic of my second anchor question, which was your, you know, your offerings. So we’ve shared those links. And then as far as like, is there anything special and exciting this year that maybe you wanted to highlight that we can point folks to. I mean, the Urbina

Shana Levenson 14:04

workshop, and you know, is our Mo it’s been the most fun workshop. But I love all the workshops we teach and all the ones I’m offering very actually, which I think is really neat, because David and I are teaching together in the Ozarks at our friend Chelsea Nicole Contemporary Gallery. She’s hosting a workshop there, and we taught there last year, and she just puts together such a great workshop. But that workshop is painting from the photo workshop. And I think something that’s really valuable is teaching artists how to take good photo reference, what to look for, what are the pitfalls of working from a photo, and how to create realistic paintings. And so that workshop specifically, we bring all of our camera lighting equipment. Chelsea has a great printer. We talk about how to print and do a little bit of light Photoshop talk. And everyone paints a self portrait, which I think is a really important thing to learn, just to be able to see yourself in a really. Beautiful way, and tell a story with painting the self portrait. And then Urbino is really unique, because we are also are working from a photo, but Dave and I are providing the reference, and we Urbino is the birthplace of Raphael, and so we go and do tours and have a lot of great food, great wine, but we are doing workshops. The painting is inspired by like Raphael pose, so we’re going to use models that are, you know, have the that feel of like a Raphael painting, yeah. And we go through that whole process of painting from a photo reference. Also talk about the pitfalls from that. So we provide all of that. And the one perk about taking mine and mine David’s workshops is that Vasari, the paint company, they sponsor all of our workshops so that they provide all of the paint for us. Wow. So students never have to travel with paint for any of our workshops, and they get to try out all the bisari paint because we have an extensive paint list, because we aren’t a limited palette type of couple, especially me, I love like, the more paint the merrier. You know, I love playing with paint, so I don’t expect the students to have all the paint, but I think it’s neat for them to be able to try out the bisari paint and choose what really suits them to add into their collection of paints. So, yeah, so you just have to show up with your palette and your panel, and then and paint brushes, obviously, and then we bring all the paint. But Urbino is really neat because everything’s inclusive. So you paid a fee, and it includes your place of stay and all the food. And so they put together such a unique experience, because we go and do really neat tours, like half the day, and then paint half the day. And then some days, we paint all day, and then we just go and have pizza at a vineyard. So I can’t, I can’t express enough how unique the experience is, because it’s also not really super touristy, so it feels more authentic, as opposed to we used to teach in Rome, which was so busy and so compact, and we kind of felt exhausted by the end of the day every day, and then this is just more invigorating. And we stay in the same place, so we get to really know each other and the same the hotels. That was really, yeah, it’s a lot of fun, so I’m excited for that one.

Olya Konell 17:24

Yeah, it sounds absolutely amazing. And honestly, that is such a good

Shana Levenson 17:29

deal, yeah? And the neat thing, yeah? And the neat thing about this workshop also, is that they people can bring their partners or sisters or kids, and they probably teenagers, because probably be harder with smaller kids, but they have excursions for the people that aren’t painting. So for those that like to travel with their spouses, they the spouses have something to do all day while we’re painting, and then we come together again for like, lunch or dinner or whatever. So that’s I think, something that I think is really unique about this workshop is that it provides you to travel with a partner that is not you know. And I know that I have a student who’s in Australia, and she’s coming with her best friend and her mom. So her best friend and her mom aren’t going to be taking the class, but she’s taking the class. So we still have some spots left in that, in that workshop, and it’s going to be really a fun experience.

Olya Konell 18:21

Yeah, it absolutely looks like it, and I, I love the thought of it is true your environment and who you’re around, and the people that natively live there and work there, that slower pace, that energy, it totally kind of rubs off on you, and it allows you to have that more authentic Italian kind of experience. So nice. Yeah, I’ve

Shana Levenson 18:41

never eaten so much cheese in my life.

Olya Konell 18:43

And you probably like, what they say about Europe is, you come back, you’re like, I walked. I mean, I lost weight. I ate so much bread, yes,

Shana Levenson 18:52

butter, and we just walked everywhere. The food’s so natural. I mean, it’s fantastic. And Piero, who puts the workshop together, he is so lovely. And he he’s like, our group, he’s like, I’ve never served so much wine to a group of people, because last year, the people that took our workshop, they loved Italian wine. So it was just, like, a really fun experience. And you don’t have to be a drinker, but it just makes it, you

Olya Konell 19:17

know, yeah, but, well, yeah, the fun, the fun, I think fact that I’ve learned about European wines in general is most here in the US, they have to be labeled organic and this and that, yeah, there it’s like, by default, they that’s just how things are. So people feel better, so you could, yeah,

Shana Levenson 19:32

no, it’s fun. It’s a fun experience.

Olya Konell 19:35

That’s I’m looking forward to that. And I shared, and I shared the link with everybody. We will also include all of the links that we are sharing in the with the video when it comes out, so if you miss something, you will have it. Yeah. And the

Shana Levenson 19:48

one thing I want to like express about our workshops is our workshops are for all level. I think that people get intimidated because the style seems super advanced, but the way we’re communicating about how we mix color. Is very all level type. So we want to encourage, I mean, I’ve had students who’ve never painted an oil, who’ve only drawn or just new to it, and so we want it to be inviting for all levels.

Olya Konell 20:14

Yeah, I love that. And both of you are so talented you have when it comes to portraits. David did a whole series of the Holocaust survivors, survivors, yeah, and he is just, it’s just amazing. He is so good at capturing emotion and those stories. So this is definitely an amazing opportunity to kind of learn from two of the best. So I told my husband, I was like, You have no idea who I get to talk to today, and I’m like, it’s gonna be fun. So yeah, do you? And there’s a the other

Shana Levenson 20:48

workshop I just wanted to talk about is the one I’m doing in December, hand painting. So I’ve taught hand painting before, but this one, it’s in Albuquerque. It’s where I where I live, not it’s not gonna be in my house, but it’s at a studio space. It’s an art supply store, and underneath they have a studio space. It’s called artisan, and I’m teaching hand painting, but this is the first workshop I’ve taught where people are painting their own hands, because I taught hand painting before, and I’ve provided the reference. But here I’m going to talk to everybody about how to take good photo reference with hands, because I think hands can be really challenging to photograph when painting, and how to express emotion with painting hands and all the pitfalls of bad photo reference of hands. And then everyone will be painting their own hands. They can have one hand or both hands, or hold an object or whatever. You know, if they want to just focus on learning how to paint hands, they can just do the simple hand pose. Or if they feel like they’re a little bit more advanced and they want to tell a story by holding like an object, like in a family heirloom, or something that’s important to them, or even, you know, whatever the case may be, it’s going to be the first time I’ve taught this kind of workshop, which I’m really excited for, because I think hands are just as expressive as facial features. Yes, more. Yeah, yeah. Because you can’t hide your age on your hands. You know what I’m saying, your hands are going to age. Can’t Botox your hands, so they will. And I feel like, as your, I think your hands just it’s funny, because I just painted, I painted my daughter a couple years ago, and her hands were down, but I was like, oh my god, she has my hands. And I think that’s a really beautiful thing to get a sense of.

Olya Konell 22:23

So, yeah, and there’s definitely we don’t realize. I mean, I just had this realization while you were talking about expressing emotion, we don’t realize what our hands do sometimes when we are experiencing various emotions, you know, we’re because people will tend to do things with their hands. They’ll they’ll clasp them when they’re nervous. When you’re at the dentist and they’re drilling, you tense them up. You know, there’s all this stuff that you do. And so it’s interesting. And, you know, we get so much attention is put on the facial expressions. And hands are hard. They can be challenging, because when funky position you have to, you know, I’m like, okay, don’t paint the hand. Paint the dark spot.

Shana Levenson 23:08

Yeah, no. And I want to make it more approachable. I want people to feel comfortable, you know, fresh color. And so we will go over the anatomy, because I think understanding the anatomy of the hands is really important to understand painting hands.

Olya Konell 23:20

Yeah, and just out of curiosity, what’s your because you have such a beautiful way of capturing, like, the veins. You know, I have veiny hands, so I’m always, you know, yeah, how would I even do that? Do you is that? Do you do, like an underpainting with,

Shana Levenson 23:36

I do the of the vein, yeah, the vein? No. So I do like, a really intense color of the vein, like this turquoise light that I love from Sennelier, or like a blue and then I kind of glaze into it, so that way I can kind of soften it back. So it’s almost like building up, yeah, because

Olya Konell 23:53

that’s because it’s so hard if you’re layering that on top, or building it towards the top. But that makes complete sense, because then you can, kind of, like you said, you know, crazy, yeah, you weave the

Shana Levenson 24:02

color on top of it, Yeah, beautiful.

Olya Konell 24:05

I love that so. And then, you know, I want to talk a little bit about marketing and getting yourself out there. So early on, you said that you started, you know, you did teaching, and then you got into your first gallery. How did you get into your first gallery? Do you have any advice for an artist that was like, I Yeah.

Shana Levenson 24:27

I mean, one thing I want to say, first and foremost, is that you’re being in the gallery is different. It’s not like it used to be. I don’t think it’s the end all be all. I don’t think your success relies on being in a gallery. I think the nice thing about being in a gallery is that people can people can come and see your work in a space. But I want to make sure that artists advocate for themselves, because galleries can take advantage of artists, and you need to make sure that you feel like you’re being respected. You want to be in a space that you feel like your voice is being heard. So because you. A gallery would be lucky to have your art. I I feel like you can show your work online. You can be your own advocate. You can push your work yourself, but you a gallery should be feeling very fortunate to have your work, because we’re the ones spending all the hours in the studio. You know what I mean? They’re basically paying the rent for you to hang your wall, you’re painting on their wall, but if they’re not going to push your work and they’re not going to advocate for you, then you know, you want to make sure you’re advocating for yourself. So that’s first and foremost. But yeah, so getting into my first gallery, I lived near Santa Fe, and so David and I just decided we were going to spend a weekend in Santa Fe and just check out galleries. And I passed out a couple cards to galleries, just saying, you know him, an artist. I wasn’t even asking to be represented by them. I just was passing out my my card. And one of the galleries got back to me is like, Hey, I’d love to come to your studio and and see some New York. And so he came, he picked up a couple pieces, sold a couple of pieces right away. And then I started showing with them fairly for a few years. And then we and this is what I’m saying about speaking up for yourself, because I was I pushed my work a lot online, through social media, and they’re kind of an old school gallery. They don’t do a lot of advertising. They don’t push your work very much. And so I found myself bringing them all the collectors. There was a point when, like, I was probably bringing them 90% of the collectors, and people were buying the work online. They weren’t even finding the work in the gallery, and I was giving the gallery 50% of the sale. And there was a point when I was like, this is no longer a fair relationship. And so I went and met with them and said, I want to get 60% of these sales. If I’m going to bring you the collectors, I want to have 60% and they said no. And so I left the gallery, and I just felt like it wasn’t really respectful that if I was going to bring them so many art sales, that they weren’t going to provide any incentive for me. And I think that that was something that was like, I learned a lesson from because I’ve still been able to maintain my sales just as equally, if not more, so through social media. And I still show, and, you know, I show in New York, I show in a gallery in New York, a few pieces I just got picked up in a new a brand, brand new gallery in Seattle. So I’m like, riding in on the very beginning and hoping this gallery is successful. I really loved the guy’s personality and the openness I could have with him. My only complaint is shipping artwork. Oh, my God, that’s the thing, another thing you have to take note of, because shipping artwork can be really expensive, and so that’s something you have to take into consideration when getting into a gallery, but I think that you want to make sure, like, when you you have a like minded personality with the gallery owner, because I think that’s a really important that are gonna be like family. You want to feel like you’re supporting one another.

Olya Konell 27:53

So hypothetically, you know, if that gallery has said, You know what, that’s fair, we want to support you, let’s adjust that percentage. You probably would have stayed with them for sure, yeah, yeah. So I and then they

Shana Levenson 28:04

started trying to tell me what to paint, and then I was like, we’re done.

Olya Konell 28:09

Now you’re like, the controlling, you know, person in a relationship, like, yeah, no, that is such good insight. And for artists that are getting started, also a thought that popped in. I almost feel like that first gallery was a valuable lesson, but also a stepping stone into learning what you you know, what you don’t want. So that way

Shana Levenson 28:32

you were able. I showed them for a long time. I probably showed with them for about five years, and we had a great relationship at the beginning, but then I was like, I really needed to stand up for myself. And so, you know, I did nice. I kept maintaining my art sales, because majority of the paintings that I was selling through them was through, you know, Instagram.

Olya Konell 28:53

Yeah, there’s a I have noticed, I can’t think of the names at the top of my head. There’s a couple artists that I’ll see on Instagram their gallery will make the video, like a really nice reel or really nice post, they’ll post and they’ll collab with them. So I am seeing some galleries realize the value of social media, and they’re helping artists do that, versus the other way, versus the other way around, totally. And in this case, it was this amazing older artist. I’m like, she’s just adorable. She’s just the cutest thing in the world. And she’s painting this massive painting, you know, like, oh my gosh, I love that. And yeah, so there are, it’s just like, it’s like, dating or, like, a friendship or relationship, sure,

Shana Levenson 29:35

yeah, yeah. No, that my friend, the student the workshop, Dave and I are gonna teach in the Ozarks. So Chelsea Nicole also has a gallery. Well, it is her gallery, Chelsea Nicole contemporary, and they are very great at like, you know, she hired somebody just for social media, yeah, because it’s just pushing the work and making people see it. So they make really great reels on each individual artist. They make sure they’re you. Know, really showing, showcasing who they’re, who they’re showing. And so I have a few pieces with her, and I love it, because I just feel like they’re really working. You know, she’s a newer gallery. She’s probably been open for about a year and a half, two years, and I and she’s really working hard at pushing the artists. And she’s an artist herself. And so I think it’s really great that she’s like, advocating for other people.

Olya Konell 30:22

I love that. And one of the things that we always tell artists is there’s multiple ways of achieving getting your work out there. Because some people might only want to go the gallery route, and they’ll put all their energy into that and bypass maybe they’ll have some they might have a social media account, but that might not be their thing. And I’ve seen a lot of artists be very successful with getting their work out there, online, on their own, you know. So I do feel like it’s like a matter of finding what you know. You know yourself better than anybody, so put your energy into what you do best. But for those artists that are curious or want to do more of their own marketing online, getting themselves out there, the number one complaint that I often hear is I don’t you know people are timid or scared or shy, or they don’t know they’re they don’t think they’re good at making a video. What advice or insight, or because I feel like you’re the queen of pep talks. What advice?

Shana Levenson 31:28

Yeah, I would say, like, I would say, first of all, you don’t have to show yourself. Like, I know people are shy at like, having themselves being filmed, or whatever. You don’t have to be. You are the face of your art, but like, you want your art to be what’s seen, you know? So I would say, first, make sure what you’re posting. The quality of the image looks good because you it’s the first image people are say it’s someone who’s never seen your art before, and they see your Instagram and it’s a bad photo, and that’s like the first reaction they’re going to have towards what you’re posting, you want to make sure what you’re posting really represents the work. So first and foremost, post high quality stuff. Make sure that you edit it correctly, or even if it’s with the iPhone, make sure it’s just a good photo. Don’t just throw something on there. But I would say start off slowly, because I actually one of my mentees. She’s mentoring with me specifically because she hates posting, and she has a hard time posting. She she posts once a month, and I was like, You’re not going to get your work seen if you’re only posting once a month. So we worked on her posting once a week, and because she really just didn’t want to, she felt like it was bragging. But it’s not like, what you’re doing, this is your career. This is like, imagine somebody else is talking about your work. So write it as if you wanted to hear how somebody else was going to talk about your work, you know. Draw them in a little bit post close ups, you know. So plan it out if need be, and make sure you’re like, it could be simple. It could just be like, Hey, look at this little moment, you know, I’m spending. And because I don’t, I don’t do like, I’m not a I don’t like to spend a lot of time creating videos. I’m not like, I just, I’m gonna post something quickly, because I’ve literally worked, you know, eight hours, and I’m not gonna spend two of those hours filming something, you know, because that’s not the work is what means everything this is like for these videos, either when I was teaching online, I record. So I will do that. I will spend time. I’m actually after this painting. I’m going to be doing, working on this Tondo of one of a smoke and mask part of that series, yeah, and I’m going to be, yeah, I’m doing a Tondo of something similar, and then in different pose, and I’m going to film the entire painting process, because I am doing a podcast in July, and they want to have a because I’m an ambassador for artifacts, okay, which is the panel company, and so they want to see me working on their on their medium, so it would on their substrate, since I use them as my substrate, which is the substrate is like, what I paint on, which is aluminum panel, which I have, yeah, don’t be

Olya Konell 34:10

shy, yeah. And I’ve noticed you have just a combination. Sometimes it’s a photo, sometimes it’s you painting, and you’ve what I love that I want to point out. Guys, don’t be afraid to post the same painting in different angles multiple times, like, because some person might might see this, and they’re drawn into this particular image because of that angle, because the attention is being drawn to the hand, you know, or Yeah, so don’t be shy.

Shana Levenson 34:37

And I have a really great story that has to do with even posting just close up. So probably in 2017 I think I started painting lace in 2017 and maybe it was 2016 something around there I started painting lace, and I did a post of just the crop. The full figure. And it got such a reaction that it made me think I should do an entire series of just cropped in on the figure lace. And that’s how my entire series of my little 11 by 14 cropped references, or cropped paintings of lace dresses, came to fruition in 2018 I think I started doing it 2019 and I just started painting, I mean, and those were incredibly successful, because I was like, oh, people are having this reaction to this image. Even though the whole painting is larger, it shows the full figure. And, you know, my audience is telling me, Oh, my God, I love this cropped image. What a cool thing. And I thought, hey, you know what I’m gonna I’m gonna jump on that. I mean,

Shana Levenson 35:58

old references. I just started messing around with all the crops, and from that, I created an entire series of new work with different angles of lace, and that’s what I use for like my lace painting workshops, because we’re purely focusing on the skin underneath lace and the fabric on top. And so utilize your audience. So if you post something, a cropped image of a painting, and you’re like, Oh my God. People love this kind of cropped section or something. Maybe play with that push that you know you just never know what your audience is telling you that they want more of. So trust in that. Also, speaking of like selling online, make sure if someone reaches out to you about buying something, flag their Instagram message, so that way you can find them again and reach back out to them. Always reach out to people

Olya Konell 36:44

I love. Okay, I’d like to talk about that.

Shana Levenson 36:49

Yeah, my mom’s a best business woman. She always told me, you know, the only way you know, obviously, you don’t want to be annoying. But like, if someone collects something, they’ll always be a repeat collector that at least, most, a majority of the time. But make sure you’re reaching out, because people aren’t going to come to you. They do reach out and ask you about a painting. Hey, keep contacting them. Send in work that you have, because, you know, I would say probably 70% of the time when I keep sending work out to people on Instagram that have reached out to me, I sell a piece, which is a huge percentage.

Olya Konell 37:19

Yeah, and a lot of people don’t even respond to the comments about their paintings. Like, oh my gosh, I love this. I’m upset. Or somebody will like, I’ve seen so many artists posts, and there’s people in the comments, and it’s what an amazing opportunity is. Like, Hey, I just sent you a few more photos. Or, like, hey, check your DMS. Like, I you know so.

Shana Levenson 37:41

Or when you post, let them know, let people know it’s available. Yes, you know, say, hey, this piece is available. Message for inquiries. You know what I mean? I also offer for me, I also for payment plans for people, which makes it more doable if they want to collect a piece that’s a little bit out of their price range, but they really want it, you know,

Olya Konell 38:05

do you have an in?

Shana Levenson 38:06

I don’t. I just haven’t been mommy, okay, yeah, I’m I send them a contract, like we have a contract all that kind of stuff. But they just have them Venmo me, then, that way I have do the contract, and then I have like, an invoice that I send. So I always have an invoice you want to make sure you have, like, proof that you sold, sold the work to them, so that way you have that for, you know, tax reasons, which is

Olya Konell 38:26

enough fun stuff. And then do you just sorry, this is fascinating because I was curious. I’m curious how people have done this, because people have asked about payment plans. Do you ship the painting after they’ve paid off the after? Yeah, okay,

Shana Levenson 38:39

yeah, depending on the paintings, depending on where they’re located, and depending on the size of the painting. Like, if it’s a small painting, I’ll take care of shipping and packaging for larger pieces. And if they’re further away, they pay for shipping and packaging

Olya Konell 38:53

and packaging, and then you can quote it based on where they’re at. And you know, maybe they have a preferred ship, or they want to use, or whatever. So that’s good

Shana Levenson 39:01

to know, but I also have a really good shipper, so I’ll have them just contact my shipper so they can. I’m not like, I knock the middle man out and I’m like, okay, here you, they’ll contact you and they’ll tell you, like, that way they can choose how they want it to be shipped.

Olya Konell 39:14

Yeah, absolutely. But that’s such a great idea. So if you’re an artist and you’re afraid to raise your prices, but maybe you know your prices are already in a good place, but you’re like, I need to raise them because it’s time and you’re afraid of losing potential sales. Have that option of available now, do you tell people, is that something you have on your website? Or do you do that in the interactions you have? No, I tell them in interactions, yeah, interactions, okay, yeah. I love it

Shana Levenson 39:40

immediately too, because I was, yeah, I’ll say, to say, hey, you know, thanks for note. I just say, Hey, thanks for reaching out. This is the cost. I also take payment plans, if that, if that makes it easier, so I immediately put it up front, like that’s offensive. Maybe they can pay it fully, you know, note. But if.

Olya Konell 40:00

Them. So sorry, we’re we’re having a little bit of static, not static, but like occasional lag for the first time. So bear with us. So I just want to make sure that I heard that correctly. So right off the bat, you tell them that it is available. Here’s the price. And by the way, I do have like, you know, and I artists, if you are uncomfortable with having those financial conversations. So many people are and so many successful artists all say the same thing. You go straight to closing the sale. Hey, can I wrap that up for you? Or here’s the price. You know, these are my payment options, including payment plans. I think if artists practice in front of a mirror, maybe they’ll be better at having that conversation. At least you get to type

Shana Levenson 40:41

it up. You’re not saying it up. You’re not saying

Olya Konell 40:42

it to them in person. That’s true. Yeah, at least you can type it which makes it so much easier when it so one of the things you talked about is you, you guys do teach people how to properly photograph things, because I think taking pictures of things for an artist is so important in 2026 even if you’re not taking pictures to paint your own references, but to be able to to share pictures in your newsletter on your social media accounts. Do you guys have any workshops where recorded ones, where you go into that, or are you planning on doing that again, where you can kind of we did

Shana Levenson 41:17

during covid on my website, on the Big Cartel website, I have a how to take photo reference. So we, we go through, we send a PDF that we put together of, yeah, all the different types of cameras, all the different types of lighting, and how to Yep, and how to take good photo reference for artists.

Olya Konell 41:37

And do you sell a recording of this at all? Yes, you do, yeah, okay, that’s actually really good. So it’s $75 for and

Shana Levenson 41:44

you get to keep the video, and you get a PDF of

Olya Konell 41:49

everything we spoke about, everything so helpful, because I

Shana Levenson 41:52

feel Scott Jones. Scott Jones is on here. I just saw there’s a comment I agree with Shannon galleries and advocating for yourself. My ears perked up on Seattle. I will be watching. She’s an amazing entrepreneur. Oh, thanks, Scott. I know Scott. He’s a sweetheart. I just saw him at portrait society.

Olya Konell 42:09

That’s awesome. Yeah, no, I Yeah. I’ll have to keep it on that, because I’m only three hours away from Seattle, Washington area. So I know, yeah. So I have

Shana Levenson 42:19

a solo show, actually, for August 2027 Okay, at the gallery, it’s called Lost in composition, and it’s right on the waterfront. So yeah, and I just sent my newest smoke piece, that big smoke one. I just sent that

Olya Konell 42:35

out there. So, oh, so they have that

Shana Levenson 42:37

I’m excited to be in the new space.

Olya Konell 42:38

Yeah, I’ll have to send you the reel I made. I found a piece of music that has a breath sound in it, and I overlay, yeah, oh, cool with that painting and like, different I was like, oh, anyway, so we didn’t get a chance to use it, but I can’t wait to hear it. I’m gonna send it to you. Because I was like, Oh, this speaks to me. Somebody asks in the Q and A, so if you have questions, throw them in the Q A, what shipper do you use? And you said you have a shipper. So how does that work?

Shana Levenson 43:07

So there’s a company here called Peli, and they package and ship out artwork. Okay, so I will, if I don’t have boxes here, I’ll take it, and then if the like, so sometimes like, he’ll send through UPS or FedEx. So he’s just a company that sends, you know, via either. But if, like, somebody wants it to be much cheaper, I’ll do USPS, so I’ll have him package it so it’s at least packaged well, and then send it USPS. But what I love about them also is, like I just sent, in March, I sent eight paintings to Seattle, and so they built something to make it a little bit more like they they figured out a way, you know what I mean, to make it a little bit more affordable to send all those pieces because they varied in size. Wow. So it’s good to have, yeah, and there’s also, like, they also have companies that you can hire to drive paintings. So, like, when I do my solo show, I’ll probably hire a person to pick up and drive the paintings, which I think is probably way cheaper than shipping it. Yeah, so different couriers that can take your work, but yeah, you have to really think about that. Like when you’re applying to, like a juried exhibition, and say Best of Show is $400 that you win $400 for Best of Show, and it costs you $250 to ship your artwork out there. And best getting Best of Show, obviously, the odds are, are. You never know, because, yeah, but you really have to consider how much it costs to ship your work. But also people get to see your work too. So there’s, like, two sides to it, so you have to think of the cost of shipping it, and just to make sure that you’re not, like, pricing yourself out, you’re not losing more money, yeah, spending more than you’re making.

Olya Konell 44:58

Yeah, and also. Not only do you get the benefit, but if you gain any kind of certification, even if you don’t get Best of Show, but if there’s anything else that you could possibly get, you get to put that on your, you know, CV, yeah. It’s yeah. It’s almost like, it’s like a pin, you know how in the military, in the army, they have, like, the it is, yeah, artists, that is almost the equivalent

Shana Levenson 45:19

of the, I remember my first show, I entered winning Best of Show, and it was like, it was a game changer for me, because I was like, oh, people really like when I’m painting it as a 2014 I sent a huge piece to this little place in Colorado, and not only did I win Best of Show, but then I found these collectors that ended up buying it. So this is, you know, 2014 it was a 60 by 40 inch painting. I sold it for $3,000 okay, now, a 60 by 40 inch painting is about $35,000 so Wow, just that trajectory, you know, it’s been 12 years, yeah. But completely, you know, you you learn, you better keep pushing yourself. So you’ll, it takes a little bit, you know, but

Olya Konell 46:11

you’ll get there, yeah. And then, you know, for artists that can get to where you are now, the beautiful thing is, all those years of hustling, barely making any money, like, it’s a hard grind. Guy, like, we all know that it’s hard, it’s a hustle. You get excited about whatever you could, you know, like, oh my gosh, I sold this probably under, undersold it cost wise, but someday it will start kind of balancing those lows out, you know, little by little. So like, all those cheap art sales, this is why artists are able to charge more. It’s because the amount of time, the amount of years that we spend charging less, you know, eventually it kind of comes back. So when people are painting for a painting, they’re not just painting for that one painting, they they’re painting for the years that the artist has invested. So don’t be afraid to adjust your prices if

Shana Levenson 46:58

you need to, absolutely, but you also want to make sure you’re not just like relying, yeah, only because that’s an impossible life to the mean very few artists, which there are artists that do so that do very well. But there’s also teaching print sales. You have to figure out other avenues of making an income, just so that way, you know it. It all comes together. But yeah,

Olya Konell 47:23

and print sales allow people to get work at a much more affordable cost

Shana Levenson 47:29

point, which, yes, and I have prints as well, and I just came out with a new print release on Monday, and it’s one of my the first smoke and gas mask piece. So if you go to prints,

Olya Konell 47:41

yeah, print, oh, yeah, oh, there it is. Yep, that’s the one, yeah. I love that painting. I I mean, are really great for people, yeah? Such a great idea. So it, you know, and do you use a print service, or do you go get your prints made and then you’re able to sign them? And you I can see that says, Yeah, I have a print,

Shana Levenson 47:59

and I have a print place here called a good sign, and I send them the image. They print it on great paper, and I hand sign a number, because I only do limited edition prints. And I actually, and this is, this is a weird work of mine. Not all artists do this. I only sell prints of paintings that have sold. I never make prints of pieces that haven’t that sold. So that way it makes it valuable. Yeah, yeah. But another thing I want to say about to artists is that so if any of you are teachers or do anything where you’re teaching, people, think of the materials that you’re using and reach out to those companies and see if maybe they will sponsor you or send you free material. So that way they I think the one reason that I’m able to get, I get a lot of my paint for free and my brushes for free is because I teach, and it’s because I get students to buy those products. So that’s something that’s really important, is to make sure that you’re you’re figuring out the business side of it with the materials you’re using, and if you do teach, or if you’re building up a big social media presence, trying to figure out how to make it more accessible, to get companies to send you some free material.

Olya Konell 49:15

Yeah, and most companies, I don’t know, I like to look as as as of late, because I’m I’ve noticed that if you go to their websites, they’ll have a little thing, either at the very bottom with those tiny little links, or up in their menu, it’ll say, become an affiliate. So if you see that, click that thing, fill out that form and see if you’re eligible, or click the Contact Us button, because that would be the easiest way to get a hold of somebody within their it never hurts to ask.

Shana Levenson 49:44

Never. The worst they can do is say no, the worst that will happen, exactly.

Olya Konell 49:50

But that’s that’s the for businesses. In case you guys didn’t, didn’t notice, or didn’t know, the number one way that businesses can market their product. In 2026 isn’t by making commercials. It literally is working with existing people that are using their products. So you know, most of the time, they are excited that somebody is reaching out to them. And if you’re the right fit and you have the right audience, and especially if you’re teaching, that’s like a slam dunk. So I love that advice. There’s so and because I don’t want to take you over your time, but I also want to get this last question, and then if anybody else has any quick Q and A’s, drop them into the chat or into the Q A box, last words of advice, like, if there was only one thing that someone could take away from this conversation, what would you want them to leave with,

Shana Levenson 50:45

gosh, don’t I guess, any mistakes you make in within your paintings, turn those into lessons, as opposed to feeling down about them. So if you feel like you’re not progressing in a painting, use that as a lesson to keep pushing yourself, you know. So say like you feel like, Oh, I’m so bad at painting arms or hands. Don’t shy away from them. Use that to motivate yourself to keep getting better at it until it becomes a strength. And then, you know, keep doing that to make another thing that you feel like you’re not good at, keep pushing yourself.

Olya Konell 51:21

So that would be that’s so good, and that’s so true for everything. So if you’re like, Oh, I suck at posting a social media, do it till you feel till you’re better? Because nobody just born good at

Shana Levenson 51:33

a thing. Well, I have another one also, yeah, I do have another one. Another one is, Who cares how the size of your studio space. If you have a spot on the kitchen table, you have a place to create art. The size of the studio does not matter. If you don’t have your own personal studio space, who cares? You know, my husband’s studio is twice the size of mine. Honestly, I don’t care, because as long as I have my own little space. You know, when I first got divorced, I used to work in this, like, small little area in my kitchen in my condo that I had at the time. And so you don’t need to have a massive space to create artwork. You can have anything like you have a little corner. You could have a table the kitchen just create work. And whether you have three hours or 20 minutes, do something creative every

Olya Konell 52:20

single day. Oh, that’s such good. That’s a good reminder for me. I needed that, because I’m always like, Oh, I don’t have that much time today. But do I have 20 minutes? Yes, I do have 20 minutes. And you never

Shana Levenson 52:30

know, you might have, like, added this fantastic color, like, Oh, my God, I just turned the corner on this piece that I’m struggling with in just 20 minutes, or you’ll be hit with,

Olya Konell 52:39

like, a lightning bolt of inspiration for something that does, you know, require more time, but something bigger. I Scott Jones says, I know artists who won’t paint hands or feet. Take her advice. Take shana’s Hand workshop and force yourself to tackle what you find challenging. Create new things all the time. I love that. Thank you, Scott for sharing. Do you I and because I know I mentioned in the beginning, I would love to see what you’re working on. Are you able to just, oh yeah, is it Yes?

Shana Levenson 53:07

Let me, let me turn this. You can see if there’s any glare, just because of the window, because my massive window. So this is my cat area. Hold on, Cat Cafe. Oh, there. There you go. There you go cafe. And then on my wall is my Hughes easel. I love this, this thing, so for a second,

Olya Konell 53:27

because there’s like, a little bit of a There we go. There we go. The camera, like got stuck, and

Shana Levenson 53:32

goes back and forth. It goes up and up and down. So I can’t move it because I’m holding my computer, but I’m working on a massive mylar balloon painting that says, fuck yeah, yeah.

Olya Konell 53:44

I love that.

Shana Levenson 53:44

It’s like, anyway, yeah, no, those are, like, for the glare. It’s like, not, okay, yeah. And then, so, yeah, I’m finishing up the you today, and then working on a couple of the flowers. But you can see, like, the flowers trying to get my camera. The flowers are really big. And there’s my references on the wall. You can see I also have artwork of people that I love. So I have an alley Cavanaugh painting I bought a portrait a few years ago. And then Michelle Dunaway. And then this is a quote I love to say, you can’t see it. It says, I will sell a painting today. I always put it out in the universe. It’ll happen. It’s true, yeah. And then this right here, is my magnet wall. Oh, fun. The magnet wall paintings have magnets like attached to the back, so they could just have them up there drawing,

Olya Konell 54:32

I What? Wow, that’s, yeah, rad. That is so clever. Okay, curious how you did that. So the wall is metal, or the wall is also a magnet,

Shana Levenson 54:42

or the magnet, no, so we put a magnet board, like, it’s like a thin, like metal, and, yeah, my art, the guy that, like built our studios, he like glued them to the wall, basically. And. Then on the back of my paintings, I have like, just,

Olya Konell 55:05

wow, that’s

Shana Levenson 55:06

so cool. So that way they can just go up there, yeah, that’s great. And then down here is a painting I just finished with my friend Doriel. Oh, yeah, and that’s actually a workshop I’ll be teaching too in 2027 she and I are teaching a workshop together in January, for those that have taken a workshop with me and Doriel, my friend Doriel can he’s an incredible figurative artist, also hers is, like, really surrealistic and fun and bright. So we love teaching together. We haven’t taught together in a year. I don’t have that on my site yet. I gotta get that on my site soon.

Olya Konell 55:40

Yeah. So I’ve just shared shayna’s workshop link again, but also, right before that, I shared just in general, and we will include all of this when we send the recording out. I love that little tour. Honestly. That was like one of

Shana Levenson 55:55

my this thing right here is the best thing too, because it has all of my paints. If you guys, if I opened it up, you’d be so jealous of all the paints. I mean, we have the best paint collection.

Olya Konell 56:06

You should do a tour. I have you ever done, like, on on social, like, Hey guys, I give you a tour of my amazing paint collection, because I will watch I haven’t in

Shana Levenson 56:15

a while. I did it a long time ago. Yeah, I need to. I need to definitely go through all the paints.

Olya Konell 56:20

Yeah, yeah, because that would be so fun. It’s like, looking at somebody’s makeup collection, or like, going into my sister’s closet, or, yeah, that same it’s that same feeling, yeah, yeah. What do you got there? I love that. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for bringing us in in such an intimate and recovery says, Great info today. Yeah, i i For anybody that I know there’s gonna be, people are like, Oh my gosh, we missed it. The recording will be out. I’m so excited. We’ll have the transcript, we’ll have all the links, and what a beautiful insight into, like, your creative mind a little bit, and your energy and your space. Like, what an honor. So thank you,

Shana Levenson 57:01

yeah, of course, thanks for having

Olya Konell 57:03

me appreciate it and everybody else. Have a wonderful and creative rest of your day. Thank you all for attending.

Shana Levenson 57:09

Thanks for joining, guys.

Olya Konell 57:11

Thank you so much. Bye, bye.