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The Truth that Sets You Free is Not Information

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

As a creative, when you uncover Truth, you will connect with the light of virtue—the creative energy of God. And your deeds; your works; your artworks; will be manifested into physical creations infused with this universal creativity. As the epigraph verse says, they will be “made manifest” and “wrought in God.”

So, if we follow wonder when we feel it, we thus allow enthusiasm—the filling up with God—to enrich our soul again.

This takes courage.

The word courage derives from the French word for heart: cour. To find one’s cour-age is to be heart-led. To enter into courage is to enter your “heart-led age.” This courageous opening up allows the light, the life, the logos—into our heart. To fully understand this, we need to first understand more deeply what the word heart truly implies.

The central claim of The Sovereign Artist is that Art is a true spiritual path to liberation. And the true path that all mystery traditions have discovered always requires an opening of the heart. Not the physical heart, the spiritual heart — the Kardia.

In ancient Greek (especially in the New Testament), the Kardia refers to far more than the physical organ. It refers to the inner center of an integrated person: the True Self; the seat of Divine Desire; the source of will; the place of perception; the conscience. The Kardia refers to the source where the aletheia—the unveiling—occurs.

The aletheia, a word that literally means “unveiling” is famously used in the following verse:

And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. —John 8:32

The word truth in that verse is, in the Greek, aletheia. A better translation might say, “The unveiling will set you free.”

This Truth is not information. The Truth that sets you free—the aletheia—is the unveiling of knowing. Knowing is gnosis. And gnosis arises from a direct, mystical experience of The Mystery.

Gnosis is not intellectual information. The verse does not say that you will read the truth. It does not say you will be told the truth. It says you will know the truth. It says that it is the unveiling of knowing that sets you free. This knowing isn’t something you can receive in language. It is bigger than that. It is a deeper truth that lies beyond language. Language can merely point the way. This beyond-language-knowing is the same word—gnosis—that Christ used in another verse when he said to His disciples, “Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.”

This type of knowing is felt more like inner music than words. When listening to a symphony, you simply know whether something sounds harmonious (good) or discordant (bad). You don’t have to read music to know, you just know. Similarly, when deep truth is unveiled, you “hear” it, and it is harmonious. In the light of this knowing, false things start to “sound” discordant.

Of course, one could argue that this is yet another scriptural interpretation to add to the endless arguments. Except…except…I knew this Truth long before I connected it with this scripture; long before I even cared about any scripture. And, it’s not just me. When I talk to others who have experienced the unveiling...they too know. There is a whole history of people who know.

I can’t, of course, prove that I know; for I can only share with others by utilizing language…and, again, the Truth is beyond language. But those who know can usually tell who else has experienced the Aletheia.

This knowledge isn’t special. We all have the gnosis. We all know. Deep down, you already know. You may just need to remember; to “lift the veil.”—the Aletheia.

Sometimes, as we approach the Aletheia, we experience fear, especially if it contradicts our existing beliefs. This is why accessing this knowing requires courage.

And it is this courageous unveiling that happens in The Kardia—the heart.

The Kardia, as we said, is the seat of the True Self that perceives the divine order; that perceives The Mystery. The artist whose inner life, in the heart, is genuinely aligned with The Mystery unveils a specific intuitive knowing that the person creating based on mere intellectual information does not (yet) see. Fortunately, the creative act itself, when approached in the right way, facilitates the unveiling of the Aletheia, and the opening of the Kardia.

Thus, those who unveil this Truth in the Kardia will find the cour-age—courage—to follow the divine call of wonder and will enter a heart-led age. And in that heart-led age they will find that new pathways quickly open to them. That is why we are enjoined to seek first the Kingdom; for once we do, once we begin to walk our true path, then the Kingdom unveils opportunities, and our works—our artworks—begin to be “made manifest” because they are now “wrought in God.”

As you start to walk, the way appears

—Rumi

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For today’s episode we sat down with Alyse Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of live painting at music festivals where she learned to paint intuitively “with the music.” She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, art college, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full-time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full-time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking, since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people, and learning basic marketing because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible artists often do well. Alyse also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors (e.g., newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards) and reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually, through small, steady steps rather than a single “big break.” Finally, Alyse tells us about her upcoming group show “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty” at Threyda Gallery in Denver, opening May 1, 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website.

Alyse’s FASO Site:
alyserussell.com/

Alyse’s Social Media:
instagram.com/alysefireflyart
facebook.com/AlyseFireflyArt/

Threyda Gallery “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty”
threyda.com/pages/gallery

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Transcript:

Alyse Russell: 0:00

If you consistently put yourself out there, are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice. I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s it’s about perseverance. If you can have all the skill skill in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re going to sell any of them.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:18

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a gold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Elise Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of life painting at music festivals, where she learned to paint intuitively with the music. She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, Art College, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking Since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people and learning basic marketing, because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible, artists often do well. Elise also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors through newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards, and also reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually through small, steady steps rather than a single big break. Finally, Elise tells us about her upcoming group show, Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty at three to Gallery in Denver, opening may 1 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website. Welcome Elise to The FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Alyse Russell: 2:18

I’m good. I’m good. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Laura Arango Baier: 2:22

I’m good. I’m excited to have you, because I think your work is so beautiful. I love the blending of the surreal and the figurative, especially figurative because I am also a figurative artist, and I love seeing how other artists express all of the different ways that we can celebrate the human body and make it interesting and beautiful and decorative. So I am excited to chat with you, also because you recently won the BoldBrush contest, and that’s actually how I saw your work, and was like, Oh my gosh, I got to interview her. So I’m happy to have you. So thank you for being here, and also thank you for being here with a very pained voice. So if you need to take little breaks, you can

Alyse Russell: 3:06

appreciate it,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:08

of course. And then before we dive into your actual work, your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Alyse Russell: 3:18

Well, I both times figurative artists. I actually recently dove back into painting full time, but it’s been a part of my life for a long time now, and I enjoy working on studio and all different types of settings, live, painting, traveling. I love traveling and music, and that’s pretty that’s pretty much all I have time for in my life this point. So, you know, not, not much else, not much else to me. I have three dogs that I love. And yes, that’s, that’s what encompasses most of my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Awesome, yeah. And I really love the live music aspect, because you’d mentioned to me, actually, that that inadvertently led you into becoming a full time artist, which I am so curious to hear about that. But also, like, did your path to becoming an artist start before that? Or, how did that get going for you?

Alyse Russell: 4:28

Um, it did. Yeah, I went to, I mean, I’ve always been, like, creatively inclined, like my whole ever since I, you know, as a small child, I think, and so I then I went to, like a magnet Art High School, and that’s where I have started learning more technique. It was very much just into the fun fundamentals, both realism and like design or design oriented. Said classes. And that’s where I first started oil painting. We had like a figure day and a still life day. And I was always really drawn to the painting. The figure from, from, really from, from that point. It was a little bit, I think it got a little bit tiring just because of, you know, being in school and having it be repetitive and, like, demanding. But I always enjoyed, enjoyed the figurative classes, that’s pretty much what started my my interest in realism and painting and then, but I didn’t really see myself as just becoming a painter. I figured that I would go into, like, a art adjacent type of field that be a little more stable, like, I don’t know what I hadn’t really gotten that far yet in my but maybe something in, like, fashion design, or something like, I considered maybe like art therapist, you know. So something related, but that has a more defined, like, career trajectory, yeah. And then I I actually had had left. I did go to F where art college, and I left there my senior year. I had some family, and my mom was sick at the time, so I come home, and I was, you know, working a part time job, and I started meeting some people who were doing live painting at, like, small music and arts events in Baltimore and I, I had shared some of my work with them, and they invited me to paint, which is, is very fun. It’s very different from a studio practice. So takes some getting used to, especially because, like everyone, at least at the time that I was painting with painted in acrylics, which is much more manageable when you’re painting in a in a venue live. But I I don’t like acrylics. I’ve actually gotten a little more into them in recent years, just as, like, a sort of under painting kind of basis, um, but at the time, I was like, No, I hate this plastic paint, and I don’t, I want to bring oil to all the events, which I did. So that was a little bit of a learning curve to be able to, you know, cleaning up is kind of a mess, like when you don’t have an art studio and everything. But yeah, it was, it was very fun. And it was, there’s something about like I would paint a little bit more intuitively. I’m sort of going with the music, so to say, and I would like, I would have a figure reference, right, like, to kind of be the main focal point of the painting, and then for the rest of the painting, I would kind of intuitively add more surreal effects, or, like, floral that kind of thing, into the work. And that’s kind of how my my voice developed, as far as, like, what I’d like to paint, and, yeah, you just kind of evolve from there. I yeah, I started doing more, more live painting. And it’s something where, like, at parts with the small, smaller events. It’s something where you might just, just be live painting, or you might have, you know, prints for sale, like, just, like paper prints for sale, something like that. And then from there that went to painting at larger but not huge festivals. I don’t do any of the like, really large ones, but bigger festivals, which would have, like a whole gallery set up, and then the live painting as well. So which, yeah, it’s super fun, and I still love to do. I don’t do as as many anymore as I used to, but I still at least do a couple festivals a year. And, yeah, I still love it. It’s, it’s. Tiring, and it’s a lot to kind of paint in that environment, but it’s very fun, and I think you do get some you have to kind of think quickly, or you won’t be putting a painting together. So it’s it’s a good place to kind of branch out and have more intuitive work and maybe surprise yourself a little bit with what you would want to put in a painting. Yeah, and I do like, I do a little like for the long for the festivals, it would be like three to three days of painting. So I do plan a little bit for the for the painting, but I don’t plan like every detail like I would maybe a longer studio piece. So it can be kind of fun that way. And just being inspired by the other live painters and the music and just the different setting and like the, you know, it’s definitely brings its own vibe to the painting. And, you know, it’s is visually inspiring, and, you know, musically inspiring. And I think that does kind of come across in the in the work, or influence the work, which is, yeah, very enjoyable, I think, and something that a lot, not everyone, has gotten to experience, painting that way,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:32

yeah. I mean, just hearing about it, I feel a little bit stressed.

Alyse Russell: 11:38

It can be, oh my gosh, I will tell you, is a little bit of a side tangent. But the last year, I painted at Mountain Music Festival in West Virginia, and I was actually starting out with an acrylic under painting, which I’ve started doing now at festivals, just to make with the dry times and everything, just so I can get something down wet into wet paint the entire time. And I was asked, or they had given, a lot of the artists an opportunity to paint with one of the bands on stage. So that was very fun. I painted for a bluegrass band called Shadow grass, and I was on stage with them, like, not directly with them, but there was, like, a portion of the stage that they had kind of curtains off so that you were away from the band’s stuff. And you know, it, it was, it was kind of last minute, like, I didn’t know, going into this festival that I was going to be at this, and I was painting it acrylics that I was, I You couldn’t, you know, bring oil onto the stage for like, safety reasons with the turpentine, like, you know, that kind of stuff. So I had to, like, I didn’t have a lot of paint. That was, like, I had only brought, like, I think I was just doing under, under painting and like, a kind of terror about that sort of color. I don’t think it was called, like, whatever the acrylic paints called, I don’t know, but it was like, it was like, a terror about the color, and that’s all I had brought. So basically, get gather a bunch of paint from other people so that I could have a, you know, a palette to continue the painting up there. And it was live, and there was, you know, a whole audience watching me. It was very stressful. It was very stressful. It was very fun, though. And I, you know, I don’t think I’ve ever painted that quickly in my entire life, because it was like everyone is whole audience staring at me, and I’m, like, trying to make it look like fun for everyone, like I’m doing something, and I’m not just, you know how painting is, like, a lot of the time you’re really just like, staring at your painting. So very entertaining for people, I don’t think so. I was trying to, like, really be expressive and, like, to, you know, painting the whole time, and I got the entire figure blocked in, like, I think it was like a, it was even, I think it was a 24 by 30. Actually, it’s a piece that I, I started. I started this piece at Mountain Music Festival last year. It’s actually going in this upcoming show that I have as well. So, so yeah, so that’s a fun coincidence. But yeah, it sorry. So side tangent, but talking about a big, stressful live painting that was about the most high stress situation. It was very fun, but it was definitely like I felt like a lot of pressure,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:58

for sure, for sure. Sure, which you know two things about that one, I bet you know, to some extent it’s like, you probably don’t get that much, you know, people looking at you the entire time when you’re normally, you know, working on in your stall, like on your paintings at the music festivals. But also I feel like, uh, probably your experience at magnet school may have, uh, prepared you pretty well, because I know that this, I mean, I also went to a magnet school, so I know that it’s extremely stressful and, like, demanding high it’s like the amount of criticism and judgment and workload is insane, so it must be nice to at least channel it in a happier location.

Alyse Russell: 15:46

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, I think it said. I think that did prepare me for and just the gradual that, and like, getting ready for gallery shows and different things, like, there’s other high stress situations definitely helped prepare me for that. And it’s also, it’s like, once I was up there, there wasn’t anything I could do about it. So then I then I pretty much was just enjoying myself once I got kind of into it, you know? But, yeah, I would stop to like, you know, you naturally stop when you’re painting to like, just like, observe your painting and see what your corrections you need to make, or, you know, whatever. And I would, every time I would stop, I’d be like, Oh no, I need to paint more, because there’s all these people watching me, you know. And it was, it was, it was very fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:43

That’s really awesome too, because, you know, like you mentioned before, there’s a certain level of intuitive painting that has to happen. Since you’re on the spot, you’re being watched, and it’s, of course, you can’t, like you said, you plant some but then you also have all the unexpected things, like how that happened, where you’re suddenly in front of everybody, or just like, I bet, also, because I did want to ask you about, you know, what your greatest inspiration and influence is, I’m assuming also, you know, to some extent, like the music itself also inspires you to move in a particular color range with your work or in a particular emotion, right?

Alyse Russell: 17:26

Yes, I guess they think so. It definitely has a has a big influence. I think it’s more subconscious. Like, I don’t put a lot of real thought into like, Oh, I’m hearing it, or I’m seeing that. It’s kind of just a subconscious like process. I think that it’s definitely made my paintings more colorful. Um, I think it’s a very colorful environment, so I think that that has was definitely way that it influenced my work. I Yeah, and then just, it’s kind of a, you know, just the the feeling, like the emotional tone of the festival, I think is a big, big influence. Um, yeah. I otherwise, like I, you know, it’s funny, I don’t listen to music a lot when I paint anymore in the studio sometimes, but I don’t know, I usually just have some random background noise on so that I don’t get like. I’ll either get like too hyper, focused, or what I’m doing forget to eat, or, you know, stuff like that, or I or I’m like, I’ll stop because there’s no background noise. So I just have like a TV on, or something like, I won’t be paying attention to it, but I just have like, something on in the background. And, yeah, as far as other artists influence, um, I don’t know. I think you know, of course, like any of the greats and like real, you know, John Singer, Sergeant, they call the normal things that everyone says, I guess, um, then I do love some oh my gosh, that’s his name. Of course, it’s like, I can never think of anyone’s names when I want that, even if I’m very familiar. I

Laura Arango Baier: 19:33

really

Alyse Russell: 19:37

Oh my gosh. Him is Oh. It’ll come back to me. It’ll come back to me later. Why my brain does that? But it’s just like, I don’t know.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:51

Yeah. Like you get asked, and suddenly you forget. It happens to me too. I swear I know things. Yeah. Know who I’m talking about. It’ll come back. So no worries, when you remember, you can you can mention it

Alyse Russell: 20:06

got you, yeah, it’ll when I stop trying to think of

Laura Arango Baier: 20:09

it Exactly, that’s exactly how it works. But yeah, yeah, I think a lot of those old masters, and you know, the more recent masters, are also really great influences, especially for figurative and realistic work. And then I wanted to ask you as well, when you get an idea, you know, where does it begin? Does it start with, like an image or a feeling? How does, how does a piece start for you? And then, what is that process like?

Alyse Russell: 20:43

Um, I think there’s two kinds of ways, usually like, depending on if I am shooting all my own reference photos or not. Because I don’t always, like, I would love to have time and everything to to shoot everything myself, as far as the figure reference. Um, but when I don’t, especially when I’m a lot of times when I’m live painting, or when I’m doing, like, these quick things, I don’t have time to, like, prepare all of that beforehand. So I will use pose space, and I’ll just, so basically, I’ll think of, like, you know, it’s going to be a figurative work. So I will kind of look through and until I find a pose that just like, strikes something with me. Like, Oh, that’s really that makes me feel something like, that’s a really nice pose. And then, usually when I work that way, I’ll be a little bit more intuitive, and I will just kind of have like, like, compose something with the central figure where I want it, and then I’ll kind of let the rest sort of just intuitively come into the painting, yeah, and I do end up making changes sometimes that way, because I’m like, Oh no, I didn’t like that. Let me Yeah. Like, I think the painting, oh, my God, wait, break in the clouds, the one I with, the that I wanted a brush with, I think, with that one, I originally had more Laurel in the background, and it just wasn’t working for me. So I changed all of that and changed color scheme. And yeah, I just, I’ll just let myself make like, I think you can’t be afraid to change your painting, or you never will get you know where you want to go, especially long term with your voice and how you want to paint. So yeah, like stuff like that will happen when I when I plan my own, like, this big thing behind me, basically, this is a friend of mine who models and did a shoot with her and I, so it’s going to be kind of a under, underwater, underwater, and not underwater scene, if that makes any sense. Was like, I got a sky, but it’s got like a like fish and coral and everything going on there. And for that, what I did was I I had my motto, and I bought a bunch of flowers that were, like coral colored, and I kind of arranged those around her, and then I had a tapestry in the back that was like a night sky. So I just had a suggestion of, like, you know, what the color scheme and painting was going to look like. So that’s a little more how worked for my larger. For my larger, more like studio work. And for those I think, I don’t know, I think it’s more of, yeah, an idea just kind of like a suggestion about an idea just coming to me, and then I just kind of develop it. If you’ve

Laura Arango Baier: 24:15

been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May, with our special guest, Debra Keirce, you can find us, sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently. In desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The FASO Podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, and I, again, I love how colorful it is, because I think it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s it’s very easy to be afraid of color, if that makes sense, but it’s really clear that you know, you have this way of using it and applying it in a way that shows through really well. I think, the way that you you compose your colors and the way that they work together in a piece, you’re welcome, and it just transmits so much joy also, which is why I really love looking at your work, because it’s just like, Ah, yes, this, this makes sense. It’s it’s happy, it’s beautiful, it’s well composed, like color wise composition, like figurative composition, it’s really great.

Alyse Russell: 27:24

You’re welcome.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you too, because since you’ve been doing this full time for some time, have you noticed that your process has evolved in a particular way since you’ve been like, working more and more full time.

Alyse Russell: 27:41

Yes, I think I’m still a little bit all over the place right now. It’s just because I did take a period of time off from painting full time, just I had some family health issues going on, and I just didn’t I felt like I needed to, like art takes a lot of focus and energy, and I felt like I needed to just take a step back to prioritize other things. So, you know, but before that, when I really was working very much full time, I I adjusted to having a very regular schedule, and I think that helped a lot, like, I would hate pretty much nine to five, five days a week, just, you know, get up in the morning. I had a home studio, but I actually this is funny, I think. But I I like to feel like I was, like, leaving the house for work. So I actually my studio is the front room of my house, and there was the side door. So I actually put my couch in front of the door into my studio. So I had to go around my house and unlock the front door to get into my studio, and it just made me feel like I was having to get up and go to work, and not just like walking into the other room, but that helped me keep focused. And I think, yeah, like having a full time practice, having a regulated schedule, really helped my work improve, because the tendency to overextend myself painting, like you get really into your painting, and you’re like, oh, I can. I’ll just paint another couple hours. It’s fine, you know. And you like, haven’t eaten dinner, and you’re like, kitchens a mess, and you’re, you know, so, and what would end up happening is, I paint so much, but then then you’re, you’re not really making up any time, because then you get, like, burnt out, putting in long hours, you know? So I just, yeah, really. I made myself keep a consistent schedule as just regular studio practice hours, and that really helped help improve my my paintings and how I worked, because I was giving myself rest. And I think that I improve faster with it’s like you have time to absorb what you’re learning from your paintings, when you have time to just process and not be actively working. So I think that was important, and that did just make things more regular. I think I actually produced more work that way. And was, you know, just able to be more consistent and have better work?

Laura Arango Baier: 30:47

Yeah, yeah, those are that’s an excellent point, because I think there’s many artists out there, including myself and maybe some of our listeners, who have probably painted into the very wee hours of six in the morning from the previous day, and then it takes a few days to, like, properly recover from that, so suddenly it’s like, all these hours you put in, you could have just, like, put them in in a different way, where you weren’t putting your health, like, in a whirlwind of mess. So I totally relate, I think, and I totally agree there’s it’s so important to be consistent and to have that compartmentalization, right? Like, how you were saying having your studio separate, or, like, feeling like it’s a separate space that you’re stepping into. Because I think it’s also happened to me where it’s like, oh, it’s not room over there. I’m just gonna, like, I just walk in, but there’s no real sense of I’m walking into my workplace now. And I think that’s something else that maybe some of us struggle with. So it’s a great point as well. And then I wonder, yes, oh, yeah,

Alyse Russell: 31:56

oh, sorry. I was just gonna say that that’s, you know, having taken time off and going, like, that’s what I’m actually trying to take my own advice right now and get back to that. Because I, I was nervous. I had a little bit of imposter syndrome coming. So I was like, am I a full time I’m not a full time artist anymore. Am I a professional artist? Like, I don’t know, you know. So I, I start. I took a lot when I made the decision, this is only back in December of last year, so I really only been painting full time again, quote, unquote, since January of this year. And I was very nervous about it, because I, yeah, I had that little bit of imposter syndrome. And it was very affirming when the when the BoldBrush, just that movie works. I was like, Oh no, I’m good. I’m good. Like, I’m I’m a professional. I can do this, you know. And, and then I picked up a gallery that I had worked with reached out to me right after that. So I was like, okay, like, oh, it’s like a big relief off of me to like, okay, I can start. I can build this back up again. And so, yeah, now I’m working on, I took a big workload just trying to get myself back in the door. But now I’m working on trying to regulate my schedule back to how it was and have more consistent same hours. Yeah, it could be a lot. And of course, like having the consistent hours always does go out the window a little bit. I think when you have, like, a big deadline or something, because what are you going to do? You know?

Alyse Russell: 33:37

Yeah, I think it’s important that I’m working on getting back to that,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:42

yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, catching you in this very particular window of time is also very interesting, because I think it is also it happens. And it will happen to every artist, really you have this period of time or like, work, work, work, work, work, and then life happens, right? And you have to step away for a little while. For some people might be having kids, for some people might be an accident. So I think it’s what you’re going through now, is literally, like, Ah, of course, you know, like being able to have, like, a reliable way to step back into the studio, like having that consistency again, having, you know the support system for yourself, because it can be really hard as a self employed person, like, no one’s telling you what to do. No one’s telling you what time to show up, right? Like being a good boss with yourself without being a mean boss. Like, no, no, you’re only working this hour to this hour, right? For example, I think catching you in this time is is really great, because it’s an interesting transitional phase, right? Because you went full time and then took a pause and now back to full time. So I think it’s Yeah, I think it’s a testament too, because I’ve also been a bit of a hiatus, and hearing you say, Oh, well, I. Was able to get back into it, and I’m still alive, and it’s going well, it’s like, oh, that kind of, you know, makes me feel like, Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, you’re consistent. And you tell yourself, I can do this and I can go back into the studio, and even if I’m not painting, I’m still an artist, which I think is another thing that many of us struggle with. It’s like, How can I be an artist if I don’t paint? I think it’s good to hear that it is okay to take a break, and it is okay to get back into it, and to feel a little funny about it at first, but to just keep going. You know,

Alyse Russell: 35:33

yeah, for sure, I It’s definitely been I didn’t imagine that it was gonna go jinx myself right? Like, you know, but it went, it went a lot quicker than I imagined. I was like, I don’t see it almost a little overwhelming, because I was like, Oh yeah, it is okay, you know. But I’m, I’m very grateful. Like, I could not be more grateful at how, how smoothly it’s gone so far, and especially because I was nervous, you know? And, yeah, just, I’m grateful for all my recent opportunities and this opportunity, and I’m super happy to be painting again full time, like it’s it’s been, really, I’ve missed that. I, you know, I’m definitely one of those people, like, I need to paint or I’ll be a little bit insane. So it’s been, it’s been very nice, despite a little hectic, but it’s been very nice. And I’m hoping I’ll, yeah, get into a little more easy flow schedule here soon.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:42

Yeah, that’s awesome. Um, and then I wanted to ask you, so the first time you became full time, what? What was the moment where you realize, excuse me, the moment where you realize, oh my gosh, I’m making a living from this. I’m, like, full time. Like, what was that like for you?

Alyse Russell: 37:01

I mean, it’s, it’s a good feeling. I think that when I, like, I probably quit my part time job before I really should have, but, you know, because so there was a little bit of a rough transition the first time around there where was painting full time. But I don’t know if I was super comfortable thinking, though, but that’s okay, but, you know, I got through it. It was very exciting, but it was, it was a lot of it was a lot of stress. I just it’s hard to, unfortunately, have even a part time job and try to be a full time artist, because it’s kind of like there’s only, feels like there’s only time for one or the other, or at least for me, like some people can have, oh, I do this job, and then I do this job, and then I do this, and it’s I, but I’m not that person, you know. So it, I think it went a little I had a period where I kind of said to myself, like, you know what? Because I had been down on myself after just struggling, like, a little bit financially, with only having art as an income. And there was just a moment where I said to myself, like, I, you know, I am art, like plenty of artists make good plenty good money selling art full time. And there’s no reason, because I was kind of thinking like, oh, I should have stayed in school. I should have done this or that, you know, I was like, You know what? Like, I don’t there’s no reason like I was like, I need to just really concentrate, start keeping make sure I have consistent hours. I need to really start paying more attention to marketing. You know, really be smart about the work I’m doing. And not just because a lot of you know, being a painter, you’re just like, you know, you’re like, obsessed, or like, I, you know, I think most people, you’re like, obsessed with your work and and just like, the process of working, and it’s kind of like, I mean, I think for me, it’s something I sort of would have to have to do to some degree. I’m not making any money on it, you know. So I think because I get to a place where I was like, Okay, I have to be smarter about this and and think about the financial aspect more strategically, and really make a commitment to that. And then I think once I did that, it was very free flowing, and it felt really good, you know. And, yeah, things became more consistent. And just over time, like, you kind of think there’s going to be this big break moment, but for me, it’s, it wasn’t like that. It was just like little steps, you know, until I was like, oh, you know what, I’m actually. Uncomfortable, like, I’m good, you know. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:08

awesome, yeah. And I find that, you know, for most people, I think that’s how it is, because I feel like I totally agree with the you think there’s going to be, like, a moment where, like, there’s a windfall of, like, I don’t know, like, a ton of shows or, like, bunch of sales. But I think just focusing on, like, those consistent little steps is so I feel like it is so stabilizing, you know, it’s so like, Okay, this is the solid ground that I can rely on. And if there is, like, a sudden windfall where, like, I sell a bunch of work, that’s awesome. But that’s the hard part about being an artist as well. You know, like, the you’re gonna have, like, times for there’s a lot coming in, and there’s gonna be times when you don’t have too much coming in. So you have to find, you know, all those ways to fill in the gaps, especially now economically, we’re in the craziest time. Yes, but I also wanted to ask you, you know, what is something that you wish you knew when you started out that you now, know,

Alyse Russell: 41:09

um, you know, honestly, I think that would pretty much be it like that, you know, you just have to, there’s not going to be a moment. Or at least for me, there wasn’t where you’re like, Oh, I’ve made it now. Like, it’s very gradual. It kind of happened before I even noticed. I thought to myself, like, one day, like, Oh, I was actually putting, like, a new commission in my calendar. And I was like, Oh, I have six months of commissions right now. Like, books. Like, I don’t like, I, you know what I mean? And I was like, Oh, I like, Oh, I like, do this full time, like, all my money is good, like, I’m, you know, it’s like, so happened so gradually, it’s like I didn’t even notice, like, I didn’t even notice at first that that that’s where I was, you know, I think it would have been helpful at the start of my career to know that, like, it was going to be so gradual, like that. Because it’s not like I was expecting, like, to just blow up overnight or something, but you kind of, I guess I was thinking, like I would get into a really good gallery or something, and then it would be, like, smooth sailing, or like, it would be this kind of moment, but no, just kind of, like, consistency, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:30

nice, yeah, no, it’s, it’s how I think, I think that’s a hard part too, that it is so gradual that for Anyone, like, in early stages of the career, right, where they’re still getting their footing, it almost feels like nothing’s happening, until, you know, you have that moment like you where it’s like, oh, my calendar is full. Like I I’m doing this all day, like I’m I don’t have my job anymore, of course. So this is my job. And I think you know, having that patience as well to, like, settle down and realize, okay, what’s the next project, what’s the next thing, and also putting yourself out there, which actually, this leads me to my next question, which is, how did you find your first collectors, and what have you learned from that process of finding these collectors?

Alyse Russell: 43:21

So my first collector, who’s been one of my biggest supporters, and he he still collects my work. He has, he has a lot of my pieces. Actually, I think he’s pretty much gotten something from every like major show or exhibition or something like that I’ve done. And I met him at one of the first music festivals that I like painted at. I actually have some large original work there, which is a little risky, because it’s now I don’t take the big pieces out to shows anymore. I just bring like chic, like prints, you know. But he, he bought it. Was a four by five foot large painting. And he, he bought that. I think he actually gave me a deposit there. And then, you know, we, you know, exchanged information, and he purchased that after the festival. And that was, yeah, that was a big help. And I think, as far as collectors, I think what’s really important is, you know, it’s buying art is a very like personal, personal thing. And you know, when people purchase your work, it’s, it’s such a good feeling, because they a lot of times feel so emotionally connected to it. And you. For me, sometimes doing a painting is like, it’s like, I just have to get this out of me, this expression. And like, once the painting is done, like I kind of, I’m like, I have, like, a moment, a few moments where, like, a day or two, where I’m like, oh so happy with my piece. And then after that, I’m kind of like, okay, like, I don’t want this anymore. Like, I don’t want to look at this ever again. And so it’s, it’s great to have someone be like, I love this. And it makes me feel, you know, this type of way. It reminds me of this or, you know, and and I want to look at this in my home for the rest of my life, you know, essentially. And like, it’s such a wonderful feeling. And so, yeah, so it’s very, I think, very, very personal having collectors, and especially like repeat collectors, you know, and you know, they’re very invested in you, I think. And so I like to really show that you know that I appreciate that. And I used to be very consistent with, like, my email newsletters again, getting something I’m getting back into again. But I think that’s important for me. I also like to do, I’ll send Christmas cards to all my collectors, and I’ll do like, a little, you know, tiny, like sketch painting that’s like our original sketch, and I’ll sign it and have a little note and send those. And I think things like that, things like that, are important to show you know, how much I appreciate my collectives, and that sometimes I feel like I care more about my work than I do, like whatever you know, like, get this out of here, and that you know that. So it’s just nice to have people feel moved by my work. And, yeah, I think that’s that’s just just maintaining that. So just letting them know that you you appreciate them is important. I think how you maintain and keep keep them coming back to to buy more work, or look at more work, or, you know, any, anything, or just, or, you know, like, I’ve had a I’ve had a few repeats, quite a few repeat, like, commission collectors, too. So I think that’s nice. And I think it’s, yeah, just making it personal, and, you know, letting them know that you appreciate them?

Laura Arango Baier: 47:42

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think the other really cool thing that you mentioned there is, you know, you met one of them at a live music show, right? Like, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned many times, actually, on the podcast, and it always comes up, and that is the importance of physically going out there and talking to people. You know, if someone’s asking about one of your pieces, or if you have, like, a show exhibition, anything your work is there, someone comes up and looks at the painting. Talk to them. You know, like it’s so important to talk to people, because you might, you know, learn something from this person. Maybe they buy something, maybe they don’t. But I think you know, most collectors, and you might attest to this, most collectors, they buy the work, not just because they love it, but because they also got to know the artist and appreciate who the artist is as a person, right? So you know that really highlights the importance of networking, you know, putting yourself out there, talking to people, you know,

Alyse Russell: 48:45

yeah, for sure, yeah, I think that it’s really important. I tried to get to all my show openings, if possible. It’s not always possible. I’m excited to go. I’ve never been to the gallery at the next show I have upcoming. I’ve never been to this gallery, and I’m going, it’s in Denver, and I’m going out, so I’ve never been. I’m excited. I haven’t met any of these people yet because, just because Denver is far from me, but, yeah, very exciting. And, you know, it’s, it’s so much fun to meet everyone and hear, I love to hear people’s perspective on my work, because I like to leave, I mean, I think there are, of course, like meetings in my work, but I like to leave it a little bit open to interpretation, because sometimes I’ll have a collector or or just someone come up and talk to me about my work, and they’ll say something about it that I hadn’t even thought of, but then I’m like, Oh my God, that’s so true. And I was actually going through something like that at the time that I made this painting. And, you know, so it’s so funny that you should mention that, and I never even thought about that, you know. And. So I think that really adds to the work and makes it just more of a, you know, like you think a painting is done, but it’s kind of adds on to that process of the painting and like what the painting is about. And I love hearing what what other people have to say with their interpretations. And I think that people do that’s something that’s big, live painting. A lot of I usually don’t sell the live painting like at the event, because it’s, it’s going to come home with me and get, you know, touched up and signed and varnished and all that. But a lot of the paintings I have sold to someone from the festival, and it being that they came and chatted with me about the painting and what it was about, and how they were interpreting it, and and then, of course, they got to see me. I don’t finish them per se at the festival, but I try to get them, like, locked in in a way that’s everything that’s going to kind of be in the finished painting is in there, and you can tell what’s going on. And, like, maybe the focal point is kind of a little more finished. And so, yeah, people really like to they felt connected to the work that way. It’s really fun. It makes the paintings that are done that way, I think, a little bit special, extra special, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:29

yeah, yeah. And also, because it’s a moment that you shared with some of the people who have observed it, right? It’s like, oh my gosh, yeah. It’s like that one time that I met you at that festival, and this is like the physical memory of like having been there and having had a great time. And I think that’s the other beautiful thing with painting, especially when you’re painting, something that really comes from your soul, right from from within, from that inner voice, is that it speaks to someone else, and also it creates a connection, through memory, through sense, through all of these things that you know, if you hadn’t been there and you’d been painting in your studio, wouldn’t quite be the same. There’s, of course, people still love studio paintings, and they’ll buy them. But there is something extra special about you know, you know collectors, or possible collectors, just people watching a piece that they might be interested in in person like not a lot of people get the privilege of watching an artist paint live, mostly because we’re reclusive and we don’t want to be looked at. But hey, that could just be me.

Alyse Russell: 52:39

Yeah, yeah, no, it’s so it’s so true, and, you know, it’s funny, because I’m very, I don’t, I’m not live painting. I don’t want anybody, but, like, I hate recording my process and stuff, so it’s funny. I don’t want anybody in my studio, you know. So it really is something like, a little little bit special, a little different, dating, live, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:02

Yeah, and actually, I wanted to ask you as well, do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Alyse Russell: 53:19

Yeah. I mean, I think really just consistency is the key. Like, if you consistently put yourself out there and you know are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice, I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s, it’s just, it’s about perseverance, you know, it, I think it’s really just about putting yourself out there, because, like, ultimately, like, like, you know, if you, if you’re gonna have all the skill scale in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re not going to sell any of them. So. And then, you know, on the flip side of that, you’ll see artists who, like, you know, I’m not saying anything about the you know, that to maybe not be my personal favorite, or I don’t think have the most technical skill, you know, but do very well, and you know, it’s because they put themselves out there and they learned how to market themselves, and they took chances, you know, to get where they are. Thank you. Just consistency, putting yourself, putting yourself out there and and that helps you, yeah, find your voice as well, just consistently keeping going,

Laura Arango Baier: 54:49

absolutely, absolutely. And then you get all of the crazy opportunities by putting yourself out there, which is what you said as well. And speaking of opportunities, do you mind telling us about your. Upcoming show?

Alyse Russell: 55:02

Yeah, of course. Upcoming show is that gallery called tereda. I hope I’m not. It’s one of such funny things where I’ve never heard anyone say it, so I hope that’s how you pronounce it. I’ve only ever seen it written down the Rada, and it’s kind of a psychedelic art gallery in Denver, Colorado, and, yeah, it’s, it’s, I haven’t been there in person, so I’m actually really excited to go. I’ve seen a lot of pictures. There’s a lot of artists that I whose work I really love, and, you know who I’ve looked up to, have have worked there, have shown there, and they’re, they’re really wonderful gallery. They’re always very professional and do a great job with everything. I’m very excited to see the show. It’s a group show. It is called Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty. It is a group show, opening may 1, 2026, and then I doesn’t stay here, but I believe it’s just running through the rest of the month, May to June, and the opening reception is May 1. And then can it’s Yeah, once it’s up, you can view all the work from the show. You’ll be able to view all the work from the show on a website to be ww.sereda.com, T, H, R, E, y, D, A, and, yeah, very excited about that. Awesome. And, yeah, I’m excited to see everyone else’s work. Of course, I haven’t seen anybody yet, so, yeah, very exciting. Yeah, see real paintings in real life is like the best thing ever?

Alyse Russell: 57:03

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I’m looking forward. It’ll be a it’ll be a good show. And, yeah, there’s not many upcoming, and that’s the only gallery that I’m currently working with as of right now, and just really have nothing else going on yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:33

Not yet, exactly,

Alyse Russell: 57:34

yeah, but

Laura Arango Baier: 57:35

yeah. But if someone does want to see more of your work and maybe stay up to date, where can they do

Alyse Russell: 57:43

that? My website, www Elise firefly.com and Instagram would be at Elise Firefly arts and, yeah, keep up with me on both of theirs. I’m pretty up to date on Instagram, usually my website. I am starting up my new email newsletter again. So if anyone, it’s usually like monthly to bi monthly. Usually send out, but that will have all the updates on upcoming shows, studio sales, anything like that, and just kind of behind the scenes of my work process, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 58:29

and then I’ll include all your links as well in the show notes, and then your newsletter link, and then the show link so people can go check out your your upcoming show. But yeah, well, thank you so much, Elise for the conversation. I feel very, very seen and validated and inspired. So thank you so much.

Alyse Russell: 58:51

Yes, thank you that was, that was that was great. That was very fun. I feel that, yeah, that felt very validating for me as well. So thank you so much for having me,

Laura Arango Baier: 59:04

of course, and I’m excited to see your future work as well.

Alyse Russell: 59:08

Thank you. Yes, I’m very excited. Got to finish this large piece back here next I think. So that’ll be fun, and I’ll have Yeah, I’m very excited to be back at it.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:23

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

The FASO Way newsletter — exploring how to thrive as an artist in the age of AI

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Today’s Article

Art Marketing Lessons from Shana Levenson

There’s a lot of noise around the “right” way to do art marketing. People talk endlessly about funnels, algorithms, content strategies, and tactics. But, most of that isn’t what’s actually driving sales for working artists.

Listening to Shana Levenson talk about her career on our most recent episode of The FASO Show, a much simpler picture emerges: Art marketing isn’t about tricks, it’s about a handful of habits that, when done consistently, create real momentum. This is what all Sovereign Artists must eventually embrace.

This episode was so good, as an experiment, our team asked ChatGPT to pull out the most important points. We felt that pulling out these nine lessons in a more organized, and shorter, format would be useful to our subscribers. Our team worked with ChatGPT to get these points organized in the clearest format that we could. And then we went through and edited them for presentation and clarity.

Some of you may bristle at our use of AI for this, so we’d like to explain: Our beef with AI is primarily when it is used in a way that reduces opportunities for artists. Our goal, in the places we do utilize AI, is to use it in a way that supports human artists.

For example, at FASO, we do not train AI on your artwork for the purposes of using it to generate alternative images. We do use AI to protect your artwork from scrapers (including other AI bots). And we will use AI in ways that send more art lovers and collectors to our customers.

As always, The FASO Way is an open forum, so we’d love to know what your opinion of such AI use is in the comments. And, please, as we always request, all comments must be dignified and respectful of us and of your fellow artist colleagues who may have differing points of view. We are in this together, so discussion, and even debate, is important. But hateful or threatening comments will be blocked.

Here are the nine lessons that Shana made that stood out:

1. Galleries Are Not the Center Anymore

Shana was direct about this: being in a gallery is not the end goal.

Galleries still matter. They give people a place to see your work in person. And that is important. But they’re no longer the primary driver of sales for many artists.

In Shana’s case, most collectors were finding her through social media. At one point, she realized she was bringing the majority of buyers to the gallery herself—while still giving up 50% of the sale.

That led her to a simple conclusion: if the gallery isn’t actively helping sell your work, the relationship may not make sense.

The takeaway isn’t to avoid galleries. It’s to understand what role they actually play—and not rely on them to build your career for you.

2. Social Media Is a Direct Line to Collectors

For Shana, social media wasn’t optional. It was how she built her collector base.

The key point here is not “go viral” or “play the algorithm.” It’s much simpler:

If people don’t see your work regularly, they don’t remember you.

That’s the entire game. Which leads to the next point…

3. Consistency Beats Everything

One of her mentees was posting once a month and seeing no results.

So, her mentee moved to posting once a week instead, and things started to happen.

That’s the whole change: You don’t need elaborate videos. You don’t need to be on camera if you don’t want to. You don’t need to spend hours creating content.

You do need to show your work consistently: A good photo; a detail shot; a crop; a moment that shares some of your process.

Simple things like that, posted regularly.

4. Presentation Matters More Than You Think

She emphasized this clearly: the quality of your images matters.

If your photo is poor, that’s the first impression—and often, it’s the only one.

Please take the time to:

• Photograph your work well

• Adjust lighting and color correctly

• Show close-ups and details

You’re not just documenting your work—you’re presenting it.

Editor’s’ note: if we had the ability to “upvote” this item, we would. This is one of the biggest mistakes we see on FASO Artist Websites.

5. Pay Attention to What People Respond To

One of Shana’s most useful insights came from a simple experiment: She posted a cropped section of a painting—and it got a stronger response than the full image.

That led her to explore that idea further, and she eventually turned that idea into an entire series that sold well.

The lesson is not to chase reactions blindly, but to notice them.

Your audience is constantly telling you, through their feedback and reactions, what’s resonating with that. And that information can guide you to what to explore next.

6. Most Sales Happen After the First Message

This is where many artists drop the ball: Someone expresses interest, and the artist either hesitates or doesn’t follow up.

Shana does the opposite.

She:

• Responds quickly

• States the price clearly

• Mentions payment plans upfront

• Follows up later with new work

Her experience is that a large percentage of sales come from continued contact—not the first interaction.

Clint’s note: I used to sell art for my own gallery. I once followed up with a prospect every couple of months FOR THREE YEARS before making the first sale to him. Most artists give up FAR too soon. And, on the flip side, as a buyer, I am SHOCKED at how often that I find a work I WANT TO BUY on an artist’s website, email the artist some questions and then…….nothing. Or, I finally get a response two months later. I’m going to say this straight out, from a place of stern love: when you do that to a collector, it is INFURIATING. And it WILL cause you to lose the sale and most likely to lose future sales. If following up is a challenge for you, please let me know in the comments. We, at FASO, are developing a service that will be of assistance in that department and it will close sales you are losing if you aren’t following up properly. Let us know if that’s of interest in the comments.

7. Make It Easy for People to Buy

One small change made a big difference for Shana: offering payment plans.

It allows people who love your work—but can’t pay all at once—to still become collectors.

Combine payment plans with clear communication (price, availability, next steps), and you remove a lot of the friction that prevents sales from happening.

8. Don’t Rely on One Income Stream

Shana was also clear that relying only on original paintings can be unstable.

She supplements her income through:

• Prints

• Teaching

• Workshops

• Mentorship

Each of these creates another way for people to engage with her work.

9. Stop Avoiding the Hard Parts

Her final point applies across everything: If you’re not good at something—posting, selling, talking about your work—you don’t avoid it, you do more of it.

That’s how you improve.

Closing

There’s nothing overly complicated here.

Show your work consistently. Present it well. Pay attention to what resonates. Follow up with people. Make it easy to buy.

None of it is flashy, but it all works. And it all makes a difference.

Leave a comment

PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

The FASO Way newsletter — exploring how to thrive as an artist in the age of AI

Today’s Newsletter is Brought to You by FASO.

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Today’s Article

The following article was written by Debra Keirce, a regular contributing author to The BoldBrush Letter.

Some Marketing Strategy Ideas Worth Stealing

We’ve all had to choose how to promote our art. Even choosing not to market it is a decision. Are you like me? Have you listened to more sales gurus than you can count, paid for a few of them, and yet, to this day, find yourself endlessly curious about what actually works?

At this stage in my career, it’s hard to settle on just one system. Instead, I’ve spent years shamelessly stealing bits and pieces from various sources. The strategies I keep are the ones that actually move my needle, knowing that success looks different for everyone.

Let’s be honest. Mastering the business of art is on par with earning a PhD. It takes most of us at least a decade to reach any level of proficiency. We are constantly pelted with questions. Is a magazine ad worth the splurge? Should I sponsor an award? How much time should I spend researching a new market versus actually creating art for it?

It’s overwhelming. In fact, it’s so overwhelming that I never run out of content for these monthly articles. But today, I want to share my personal approaches that have survived the trial by fire since 2010. That was the year I ordered Vista Print cards and officially began calling myself a professional artist.

None of us are discovering or doing anything new here. I don’t remember who I stole these from, but I’m glad I did. If you’re new to the game, feel free to lift these for your own toolkit. If you’re a veteran, please add your own stolen goods in the comments. Collaboration is always more beautiful than competition.

The Stolen Strategy List:

Identify Your Why and Stick to the Script

I make sure every promo, post, and pitch aligns with my core purpose. My why is simple. I want to wake up tomorrow and be the best realist painter and draughtsman I am capable of being for the day. If a marketing opportunity doesn’t serve that growth, it’s a distraction.

Network Up - and Also Out

I surround myself with people who challenge me. If I’m the most skilled person in the room, I’m in the wrong room for growth. If I’m in a group that isn’t interested in my genre, I recognize I’m there for the social hour, not the career boost. Both are fine, I just don’t confuse them.

Adapt to the Six-Second Attention Span

I don’t enjoy making videos, and I am definitely not known for being succinct. However, the world currently demands short reels and concise mailings. If I send out five page daily manifestos and ignore social media algorithms, I’m shouting into a very empty void.

Leave Room for the Unscripted

I used to think I needed a rigid, 12-month list of actionable marketing tasks. I’ve since learned that if I focus on getting my work in front of as many eyeballs as possible, unsolicited opportunities appear. Most of the highlights on my resume weren’t part of an aggressive plan. They were the result of being visible when luck stopped by.

Stay the Student, Not the Sage

My observation - Being curious and self-deprecating is almost always more effective than acting like the ultimate expert. The best artists I know never stop learning, and their following grows because people love the journey. Overconfident creators tend to end up with very small circles, because people take what they need and then leave.

Focus on the Essentials

Most metrics are decoys. High follower counts and likes rarely translate directly to my biggest commissions or sales. Even major awards, while wonderful for the ego, don’t always swing doors open. My technical skills are vital, but marketing success only happens when my strategy aligns with that “why” from point number one.

Try as Much as You Can

I have found that there are no universal answers. The only way to know for sure what works for me? Try it! Then, streamline down to only what works best.

So, what are you going to add to your “must steal” list this month? Or, perhaps more importantly, what are you finally going to stop doing?

Leave a comment

Debra Keirce
www.DebKArt.com

Join me each month for free updates on this art adventure at
https://debkart.com/email-newsletter

PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

Today’s Newsletter is Brought to You by FASO.

FASO Loves Liz Phillips’ paintings

SPRING SALE - SAVE 52% ON FASO FOR A LIMITED TIME

Wouldn’t You Love to work with a website hosting company that actually promotes their artists?

As you can see, at FASO, we actually do, and,
we are the only website host we know of that does.

Click the button below to start working
with an art website host that actually cares about art.

Just activate your account before before your trial expires to save 52% on your first year.

Get started with FASO for Free

We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

Why Being Called a Sheep Is Not an Insult but the Highest Compliment

When I first read in the Bible that believers are called sheep, I wasn’t impressed. It sounded degrading – to say the least. Some people explained that it’s because humans are as dumb as sheep. That I could certainly see – in myself and in others – and yet something about that explanation didn’t sit right.

If “sheep” is just a euphemism for “not very smart,” why would a good God choose to call us that? Doesn’t He see – and draw out – the best in us, especially when we stray?

After all, didn’t He give His followers many uplifting and encouraging names: the rock, sons of thunder, the one whom Jesus loved, the son of encouragement? So why would He take such a drastically different approach here?

Fast-forward many years. I came across a video explaining that the Western image of a shepherd tending sheep is very different from that of the Near East, especially in ancient times. In the West – and in Russia, where I grew up – a shepherd drives the flock from behind, with a whip.

So when I read in John 10 that the shepherd “goes before them, and the sheep follow him,” it didn’t compute. It wasn’t until someone explained the Near Eastern approach to shepherding that the pieces began to fall into place.

In John 10, the sheep follow the shepherd because they know and recognize his voice – not because they are driven from behind. Sheep have a remarkable ability to recognize and respond to specific human voices, especially when they are bonded to their shepherd.

To be called a sheep means to possess a unique capacity – a perceptiveness that responds to the divine voice. A sheep is the perfect responder to the Call: the call of Beauty, of Magnetism, of Attraction.

Martin Heidegger famously wrote in his Letter on Humanism (1947):

“The human being is not the lord of beings, but the shepherd of Being.”

True shepherding has nothing to do with driving, whipping, or forcing. It has everything to do with calling, attracting, summoning. The sheep follow not because they are compelled, but because they know the Caller – and will not follow another.

Just as the divine Shepherd never drives but calls, so the human being is not the lord of beings but the one who invokes Being.

If we know the voice of the One who calls, we come to know the power of attraction. He who lords it over beings betrays Being. But he who knows the voice of the divine Caller becomes the shepherd of Being.

Being itself is like a sheep. It waits for the right voice to invoke it. It does not respond to the voice of a stranger. It cannot be manipulated or forced into presence. It flees from those who would dominate it but opens itself – like a flower under the warm rays of the sun.

Being does not yield to force, for force is a form of weakness. It responds only to true power – the quiet but irresistible pull of Wonder and Beauty.

Leave a comment

PS — Editors note — if you’re wondering what today’s issue has to do with art, it’s in the last line of Eugene’s piece: responding to the “quiet but irresistible pull of Wonder and Beauty” is the essence of true art.

PPS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO

Learn the magic of marketing with us here at FASO!
https://www.boldbrushshow.com/

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https://www.FASO.com/podcast/

Join our next FASO Show Live!
https://register.faso.com/live-guest

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On today’s episode we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite park ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings blend rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored abstraction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry, and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms, and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full-time painter and seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect people emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory, and truly knowing one’s subject—whether it’s a cliff face, endangered owl, or peregrine falcon. Over time his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission: using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists to be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long-term perseverance, and on building real human connections—with collectors, galleries, and fellow artists—rather than chasing awards or trends. J Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite (opening May 4), as well as group shows including the California Art Club Gold Medal Exhibition, the Art Renewal Center Salon in New York, and invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year.

James’ FASO site:
jamesmcgrewfineart.com/

James’ Social Media:
facebook.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

instagram.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

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Transcript:

James McGrew: 0:00

I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me like she’s saying, like, you gotta, you gotta just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true and I but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work. And, you know, getting those those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:42

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. On today’s episode, we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite Park Ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings lent rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored obstruction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full time painter and a seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect with people, emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory and truly knowing one subject, whether it’s a cliff face endangered owl or peregrine falcon. Over time, his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission, using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long term perseverance and on building real world, human connections with collectors, galleries and fellow artists, rather than chasing awards or trends. Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite, opening may 4 as well as group shows, including the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibition, the art renewal center salon in New York, and Invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year. Welcome James to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

James McGrew: 2:47

Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m doing well.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:50

Thank you. I’m excited to have you. Yes, I’m excited to have you because your work is beautiful and it is so authentic. How much you love nature, which, of course, we will touch so much more on where that stems from. But I’m very excited to have you to be able to pick your brain about your work and your inspiration and how you are a multi disciplinary person, which is really awesome because you have so many things to pull from. But before we dive into all of that good stuff, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

James McGrew: 3:23

Sure, so I My name is James McGrew. I’ve been a full time professional artist for about 30 years, and for about 25 summer seasons. I was an interpretive park ranger in Yosemite as well, seasonally for about a couple months each summer. And so whether I’m doing my painting or photography or video work or writing or having done, you know, programs, presentations, or teaching a workshop, one hour workshop, or a photography workshop, it’s really kind of all the same thing. I think of myself as an environmental educator. So it’s all just different ways of using different vehicles for communication to connect people with the places that I love.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yes, yeah. And you know that goes back to the you are an absolute nature lover. I think, I don’t think I’ve ever met someone as involved and as enthusiastic, motivated to really dive into the importance of conservation and environmentalism and nature and also be a phenomenal artist. I think that’s one of the coolest things. You’re welcome. So I wanted to ask you, too, because you’ve always had this love of nature, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

James McGrew: 4:44

That’s that’s tough to say, because it was so early that I don’t remember a lot of things really well back then, I’ve come across some photos of me at the dining room table with watercolors painting when I was, like, four years old. If. I do remember getting in trouble in school and math class around third grade frequently for drawing Yosemite drawing, kind of all the time so. And then when I was eight years old, my aunt gave me a set of pastels, soft pastels, and and then another friend of our family, about a year later, another much bigger set of Rembrandt soft pastels, and then my dad gave me oils that he had the from college when I was 10. So it’s been as long as I can remember, really, but that’s just the actual act of painting, drawing. The bigger part of that the deep resource that I draw upon, the inspiration for all the artwork, is just my connection with nature. And that goes back even further. So when I was four months old, my parents first took me backpacking in Yosemite, not with a pack of my back. You know, I was the backpack, but they have photos of me and in Yosemite National Park in the back country, and they said I was just enthralled with my eyes wide open and my mouth open, just looking up at the cliffs. And I don’t quite remember that trip some reason, but I do remember a few years later, about six to eight years old, and one really important trip when I was eight years old for my birthday, and we were backpacking in hecheschi and the northwestern part of Yosemite, and that was a record snowpack year, with massive snow melt in late June, with the waterfalls raging and thundering. And it just had such a vivid impact on me, emotionally, mentally, and I can still remember it. Fact, I remember getting in trouble in school, drawing from that trip just behind the waterfalls, they were so big, you know, later on, so the next year in school. So I think that background the art path is just it’s been there for a really long time.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:54

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Would you say that your I guess, desire to turn it into more of a career. Was that something that started or, you know, like maybe early as well, like when you were maybe in high school, or was that like later down the line?

James McGrew: 7:13

Well, you know, it was always there. As long as I can remember, there were times that I thought about it and things. But of course, there’s always the thing that you hear from so many people, starving artists. You can’t make a living as an artist. And so on my I have to credit my my family, for tremendous amount of support and always encouraging me, and also a lot of teachers along the way. And I remember my sixth grade art teacher, she told my parents at a teacher parent conference like, you know, I normally tell students don’t plan to make a career as an artist, but you really should encourage your son to do so. And so they did, and they told me that, which, you know, I so I think, you know, it’s really, I have to give a lot of credit to other people for helping steer that path. I mean, I’ve always had that energy and that notion, but when I was in high school. I didn’t quite know what it was that I really want to do. I painted all the time, and was always studying work and and then when I went to look into going to college, actually, for my high school senior project, we had to do something that would be a legitimate career. And at that time, I was I loved art, I loved nature, and I loved bonsai, which is a form of art with, you know, potted small trees. And so I thought, well, it could incorporate all these things together. And I thought, well, landscape architecture, perhaps. So I did a thing on that at the time, just a little kind of interlude. And I think part of that had to do with my art teacher and my sophomore or junior year who asked me to use a certain technique with pastels in a painting, and I demonstrated with demos that I was able to do it, and I did it, and then I did it in parts of that painting. But I really wanted to kind of follow my own voice and my own heart and some things that I’ve been playing with pastel since I was eight years old, and I didn’t see the way she was trying to get me to paint as being really the way that I see and experience the world. And there are some areas that, when we look at stuff that you know, there’s high detail and sharp edges and texture, and the other areas that are kind of blurry, and I was trying to paint that way, and some areas I was smudging, and other areas I was leaving sharp. And she just wanted the whole thing to be kind of, you know, sketchy with the pastels, without ever being able to blur any areas I’m like. So I did some spots that way, and then I left other areas softer, and I intentionally smudged other areas and softened edges. And she gave me a D on the painting, and it was the only time I had not gotten an A on a painting. And she says, I did this to teach you a lesson. And she goes, You didn’t listen to the instructions. And but then when we had the end of the year art show, she had it hung front and center in the entryway to the entire school as the showpiece. So I got really kind of confused with that. And but then it really kind. Sunk in that, yes, you do have to listen to your instructors, but it also kind of backfired. It made me even more entrenched in how important it is to follow my own voice, and it just it didn’t feel right to do somebody else tell me do with my artwork, because my artwork is an expression of me and how I feel and how I interpret the world, and so still super valuable experience, and so kind of an important, you know, moment there, but that, I think, is probably part of the reason why I was a little unsure for a little bit. But then when I went to go look at college, and I went to the dean of the art department of the school that I was looking at going to, and they looked at my work and said, We think your work is wonderful, but it’s very representational. And that’s not the direction the art world is moving. They said, any university you go to, it’s going to be about abstract expressionism, being expressive with acrylics and just throwing color on canvas. And if you want to learn to paint with oils, and you want to learn to and you want to learn to draw properly and paint with an old master style, a classical style, that’s just it. You can come here, but you’re not going to probably be happy. And so I was really kind of put off by that, and just decided it was time to study the other thing that I loved, which was nature and figure out how to get to Yosemite, somehow, my favorite place in the world. And so I went to get a degree in biology. And then as I was taking courses in biology, and we had to take additional science courses and other disciplines like geology and chemistry and physics and things like that. And I realized along the way how interrelated all sciences are, and just how inspiring it was and how exciting it was to just learn more about what I wanted to paint. And so I added minors in chemistry and geology, and still taking every art class that I could, you know, from art history to darkroom photography to biological illustration when I was in grad school, and so just lots of stuff along the way. But my real inspiration for art was going to museums and looking at the works that really moved me. Like, I can’t remember, I can’t remember what year it was, but the first time I ever walked into a room full of Rembrandts and I just, you know, art skipped a few beats. They were alive. They were breathing. They were just so real. And then they the American Masters who painted the places that I love, like Thomas Hill, Thomas Moran, Albert Bierstadt, and other artists in similar styles in the 19th century. And of course, the ones that we all look at today, like Sargent and Zorn and Zorya and those guys, but, you know, I was looking a lot at the artists who painted the landscapes that I loved, especially, and so that was all kind of inner mixed together, but not really knowing what I wanted to do with it, other than somehow figure out a way to keep painting, figure out a way to get to Yosemite and be in the place that I loved. And at the end of my four years in undergrad, I was on a geology field trip, and we were in Yosemite at the entire course is actually on the geology of Yosemite National Park. And for the end of the course, we went to Yosemite for a week long field trip. And while I was there, I learned about this internship program with the National Park Service and the Yosemite Conservancy. And I just like, This is it. I have to be this. I got to apply to this. So throughout my time in school, I tailored every project in every class to something to do with Yosemite. So in a Native American narratives course, I tailored it to the awanichi in Yosemite. In organic chemistry, I wrote my year long term paper on the reactions of ozone, air pollution, with terpenes and chlorophyll in in pine trees in the park. In entomology, I studied bark beetle so like of course, I studied geology and of our national parks and all my geology courses. So everything was just really tailored. And I had all these papers written and things, and so I submitted this volume of stuff and photos of my photography and my paintings, and I applied for a wilderness position to just be on patrol on the trails and making sure people were safe and camping properly with permits. And they asked me, because of my background, if I could work in interpretation and be able to do programs for the public. And when they said, working in Tuolumne Meadows with campfires with 300 people, like my heart really skipped debate. Like, I don’t want to do public speaking, you know, but I mind. I don’t mind communicating with people through my work. I love doing that, but actually performing in front of a crowd, that’s really scary. And so they said, Well, you can give it a shot, and if it doesn’t work, you can move to wilderness. But we’d really like you to give it a try, you know. And they let me do it in a less intense environment, in Yosemite Valley. And. First, I was not very good, and I heard these incredibly brilliant speakers, longtime park rangers had been there for decades, who were just some of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met. And they could take any tangible object that we see in nature and then just layer all these levels of intangible concepts that just pull at the heartstrings and make people really think and make connections. And that was scary at first, because, like, oh my god, I can share some knowledge, but like, I don’t know how to do this, you know. And over time, I did, and I kept working at it, and I eventually I realized I had the potential to connect people with nature and inspire people that would have lasting impacts outside of their visit to a national park. And so then I went to grad school for a Master’s of Science in environmental education, and all along the way, kept painting. And today, after 25 summers as an interpretive ranger, and the rest of the year and On days off and before and after work, I was always painting. And so it’s, it’s really been predominantly an artist, but it’s, it’s all, like I said at the beginning, a vehicle for communication as an environmental educator. And so as to how that path kind of became realization that it would be making a living as an artist, I don’t really know. There’s any one time, I guess, when I was young, and I was more kind of confident in everything and my knowledge of stuff, I just walked into galleries like, Hey, do you want to sell my work? And I was very fortunate that I landed some shows in college at some major galleries, and things were successful from right, from the beginning. And so I never really questioned that, and never thought about it. And I’ve just been very, very fortunate that the right doors open up at the right times, and I met some really wonderful people that, you know, saw what I was trying to do with my work, and I’m really grateful for those opportunities. So it’s just been like part of who I’ve been my entire adult life. Really, I’ve not known any other path other than that. So there wasn’t any one pivotal moment to make a living as an artist, just sort of all happened. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:09

It feels very organic, like your love for nature, very organic. But yeah, you’ve mentioned a lot of stuff there that’s very fascinating, you know, like the having the proper support from teachers, and sometimes even, like the, I guess, like that stubborn sort of, well, I have my vision, and this teacher is trying to like, because I think many artists have definitely gone through that situation. I feel like it’s almost rite of passage where butt heads with an instructor at some point, because they just don’t seem to, I don’t know, see what you see, and it is hard to come to terms with that. And I think that also dissuades a lot of people from pursuing art as a career, and the challenges of wanting to be representational, also in a time, especially, you know, 2030, years ago, in a time where it was considered a dead thing. Like, why would you do that? Especially, gosh, I feel like from the 50s up until like 2000s is when contemporary schools were all modernist and almost anti representational, which is kind of sad, because it’s still, you know, no hate on contemporary art, but there’s room for everyone you know, like even contemporary art stems from observation of nature and comes from realism, comes from representational work. So it’s good that you push past that and you still kept going stubbornly.

James McGrew: 18:40

But I actually, I already is I thought I knew the most about art when I was younger, and the more I keep studying, the more I realize how much more there is to know. And it’s like you reach a certain level with your work, with a certain level of accomplishment and a certain level of understanding. And you kind of break through these barriers, and you keep going up and up, and all of a sudden you begin to see things in masterworks in museums that you couldn’t see before that. And as far as I know, those never end, you know, they just keep getting more and more and more. So you begin to realize just how much there is to really learn, and just how brilliant a lot of the masters were, both contemporary and, you know, for the last hundreds of years of throughout art history.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:24

Yeah, and like you said, it’s the gift that keeps on giving. Like, the more you know, the less you know. And it’s similar with science. You know, the more you learn, the more questions you have. And it just keeps going on and on and on. And actually, speaking of science, I wanted to ask you, do you find that your increase in like knowledge about biology, chemistry and all these different scientific components has that influenced your understanding of painting and how to create like an image that seems more realistic just based on that

James McGrew: 19:55

Absolutely, in fact, I would say that’s kind of the foundation, the most important thing. And. And you know, we think about this, look at davinci’s work, you look at Rembrandt’s work, you go back to these master figure painters and the studies they did with human anatomy, with dissections and things, and they really early on, that’s when you start to really see figure work that starts to look real. And every great figure painter today, of course, studies anatomy to some degree, and it’s really important to know the bone structure and the musculature and everything and how things work. And the reality is the same with your painting nature. So I mean human animals versus, you know, other wild animals, birds and things, you still have to know the anatomy. It’s also important to know the behavior. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been really fortunate to encounter incredible species that are very rare, endangered species in the wild, pretty frequently, and sometimes that’s just a product of being out painting plein air, very still, very quiet by yourself for two hours with all of your senses heightened, and animals just they lose their sense of fear, and they go about their business, and they’ll reveal themselves to you and like, go walking or flying right by in front of me while I’m working, but also just knowing what I’m intentionally looking for stuff and knowing when and where to find them, and then be able to tell the stories about those animals, how they fit in an ecological niche, or the background behind that thing and the story that’s being told through my work. And sometimes I’m adding a visual story in the painting. Other times it’s the captivating thing, and I’m adding an interpretive writing that goes with that pain, that elaborates and gives you some more information on the natural history or ecological status, on endangered species status or things like that. So that’s all super important. And and then, of course, the anatomy of nature is, you know, geology, and also physics. And the more we understand geology and why rocks break the way they do, why they layer and color the way that they do, that’s really important, and what to look for in the landscape. I mean, you know, you look at the Impressionists and just looking at a thing and finding a color and value and the relationships of those strokes next to everything around it is valuable, and you can just create a painting that way. But it helps a lot if you also are kind of looking for certain things. And you know why a rock should be more angular in certain situations, or softer and more rounded than others. Why that there would be certain colors on the cliffs? Why, with physics of atmosphere and light through Rayleigh scatter, why things compress and value and become more blue as they recede, and why you have different light source versus, you know, warm and cool and light source versus reflected light and a shadow, and there are no fit rules. And like I was at on faculty plein air convention last year, and and one of the other faculty members came up and used my painting as a demo for somebody he was trying to talk to. And and the guy said, okay, so somebody else told me that the shadows should be warmer than the light source, and it’s always that way. And like, well, there’s a lot of situations where that’s the case, but it’s not always true. And at this time of day, it was sunset. So I said, you know this, the atmosphere has filtered out all the short wavelengths of the spectrum. We only have the long wavelengths coming through, so the light source is very warm, but the shadows right now reflecting blue light from the sky, so it’s completely reversed of what you think. And if you’re not making observations in nature and also understanding what’s happening with that physics, you know it might be a lot more complicated to try and figure things out. And then the other side of all of that doesn’t matter what genre of work you’re doing or what your subject matter is, is knowing human visual processing system, how we perceive things, how we process how it triggers certain emotions, how we can play off of our processing system, like the way the Impressionists did, using like, for example, equal value, complementary colors and juxtapose near each other. And you know, the rods and the cones and our retinas are wired to different parts of the brain, and so rods are looking at grayscale, and cones are looking at color and detail. And so if you put those equal value complements next to each other, the brain has a hard time figuring out what’s going on, and that’s what causes the vibrance and atmosphere you see in Impressionism. And I mean, even fasori wrote about it, with the Mona Lisa, with the the green earth that was used, and the verdaccio and the under painting, and then the Vermillion mixed with lead white into the the over painting, and you get that resonance and vibrance of two complementary colors there and and create like, as he said, it looked like the veins in her neck were pulsing. We can’t see that now, because the varnish has changed and the paints changed. But you know, we can rely on what was written about it and see that in more contemporary works that do the same thing. So whether they knew the science behind what was happening or not, certain artists figured these things out along the way. And we can study the art, or we can. Study the science or both. And I think it’s all really valuable and instrumental into helping know what to look for, and that speeds the process and helps us when we’re inevitably always getting stuck, you know, in a painting, trying to figure things out why something’s not working.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:18

Yeah, yeah. And that’s it’s so fascinating, because now it’s, I’m even more intimidated by landscape just the idea of, like, Huh? I wonder if this is limestone over there, and what kind of reflective nature limestone has, and maybe granite doesn’t have, and all of these things that could definitely, I would say it could improve the understanding of a painting, which is great. And I think it’s also up to the person, if they want to go that far to like, really understand what they’re looking at, which is exactly what Leonardo did right with his illegal anatomy shenanigans, which really helped him understand the insertion points of muscles and why, you know, certain things are shaped the way they are, or even, like the very famous Michelangelo sculpture where the pinky is slightly lifted, so this one muscle is exposed that isn’t normally exposed unless your pinky is lifted. So, yeah, I think there is a beautiful combination of, like, knowledge and observation that I think a lot of successful paintings and sculptures and other art forms tend to have. So I think, if anything, it might, it might spark intimidation, but curiosity as well as like, Oh, okay. Like, how would that work? Or, like, how does why does this look funny? Maybe there is a scientific observational reason why it’s not working in my painting. So that’s really interesting. And actually, speaking of I

James McGrew: 26:46

do that when I teach a workshop, I always mix that the stuff that you standard teach in a workshop, design, composition, draftsmanship, values, color theory and, of course, edges, you know. But I also teach all the natural history sides of things, and the visual processing system and the art history and all that stuff and how it interweaves together to help people be able to see better and work more efficiently and effectively and and know what to look for and when and how and anticipate. So much about plein air painting is not capturing something in the moment, it’s knowing what’s going to happen. Like, you know, sunset lasts for five minutes, and you can’t paint a good sized painting in that amount of time, usually. But you know, you have to kind of know where things are likely to go.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:35

Yeah, yeah. And that’s the part about science that’s so useful. It’s the repetition, right? The the replication of experiments. It’s the knowing what’s going to happen. Like you said, just based on, oh, well, these are the conditions that are happening. I’m just going to lay out, for example, like lay out all of the structure of my painting. And that way, once I know that sunset hits where I want it, where I know it’s going to be, I know exactly where I’m going to start popping those colors on, where I need to, to make a convincing, you know, image. And I think that’s, that’s, I like to say that plein air is like running a crazy marathon, which actually leads me to my next question, because I know you do plein air, of course, and you do studio work. What is your process like? You know, from searching for your subject matter up to finished piece.

James McGrew: 28:27

That’s a great question. It’s a big question. The most important thing, like we’ve been talking about, is just observing nature and spending time in nature and letting that sort of reveal itself. You know, what really moves me? What inspires me. Sometimes I’m actually looking for something on purpose, like looking for peregrine falcons or looking for spotted owls or great gray owls or bears or something that I’m intending to paint for a reason. And we’ll put myself into that habitat on purpose, set up a landscape painting and be working, and invariably, I’ll have a long lens on a camera set to high speed and have another panel set and ready to go quickly. And then if that animal shows up, I’ll usually do a quick study of them, even if it’s only a matter of strokes, or I might incorporate them into the painting that I’m already working on. And then, of course, grab some quick reference photos. And most important, just really absorb that moment and suck it as much as I can in through my senses, and pay attention to everything I’m observing and feeling at the time. And I think a lot of it is intentional, but a lot of it is also beyond our kind of intended control, like just so many of the things that we’re feeling when we’re out in nature, ultimately do come in through all of our senses, whether it be visual or auditory or olfactory or touch and and then just even the way we’re feeling at the moment and aware of what’s going on and like, there’s times I’ve been on a vertical wall on a cliff in Yosemite rock climbing to get an image or something, you know, and one of the paintings is in my next upcoming show. Actually. Is peregrine falcons hunting bats at sunset, and I was really reliant on a park biologist and a couple of outstanding world class rock climbers to get me into that place, to be able to get there, to experience that, do a study on site and get the photo references. But also it was so intense my senses were heightened, and like, I could paint it without their references, because it’s just so indelibly ingrained, because because of the experience, because the emotion of where I was, you know, 300 feet off the ground at the time, so that that all kind of comes into play. And whether we’re consciously thinking about it or not, it’s channeled through the brush when you’re there on site. And so when I’m out in nature painting, it’s sometimes kind of planned. Other times it’s just whatever happens and what inspires me, and I don’t know what I’m going to look for for the day. I mean, I rely on my background to know when the light’s going where, like in Yosemite Valley, for example, I know certain times of the year when the light hits certain waterfalls, when to anticipate certain things, when it hits certain sequoia groves, when it hits certain cliffs. And the same is true in other landscapes that I paint a lot, like Zion and Grand Canyon and and things like that. But then there’s stuff that you just you can’t predict, and when certain wildlife is going to arrive, when weather changes unexpectedly, when something hits, that just really makes you excited and inspired. Like, oh, I have to paint that right now. I was not what I was thinking, but get my gear out go, you know, and gotta record it. And I almost never paint a studio piece without a plein air reference, at least one, and I have to have experienced it on in person. So I often hesitate to take on commissions if somebody doesn’t have, you know, something that they’ve already seen me paint, and I already have planner references and photographs of my own, my own memories, and so that’s a really important part of the process. But then, of the images that I’ve gathered in the studio to plan our studies and and things, there are certain ones over time I’ll kind of sometimes know right away, oh, that’s gonna be my big show piece for my next show. Other times, I just look at stuff and kind of figure out, all right, which ones am I going to orchestrate into certain pieces and figure out which ones I need to tell the story to round out the body of work and to put together for a thematic body for a show like every one of my big solo shows have a thematic body behind them, an artist statement that’s describing how all those paintings fit into an umbrella. And so I usually am planning those out at least a year ahead of time. And so those, those are kind of going into what I’m designing for the studio pieces. And then, like I have right here behind me, I have a big piece of Yosemite that’s going to be one of the pieces in my show. I’m making some last adjustments to it now and then the plein air reference here that I painted on site one morning, got up at dawn, went out to this viewpoints, a steep scramble up on some granite cliffs, to that spot, and set up. And I painted, I don’t know how many times from that area, all different times a day, all different times of the year. And this one that I really didn’t want to put up for sale. So many of my plein air paintings I never put out for sale because they’re just too valuable as a reference for a studio piece. And this one I’d been wanting to do, and I just knew it would fit with the theme of the show. And so use that to orchestrate in conjunction with my memory and my photos and come up with the big studio pieces,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:29

amazing, wow,

James McGrew: 33:30

and try and channel the same emotions that I had while I was in the field. And sometimes I have to just really kind of visualize and think and try and go back in my mind to try and get back into that place. Sometimes I rely on certain music to get me there and fit the same kind of a mood.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:49

Yes, yeah. I think that’s one of those underrated parts of being a painter, which is memory. I think a lot of a lot of the most important part of the process is part memory and part, of course, like immediate reaction to what you’re seeing and immediate capturing, right? But I think you know, having the memory is so so so valuable. I mean, that means you can, you know that means you can close your eyes and you have learned something so well that you can visually recreate it without necessarily having to see it because you’ve observed it so much. And I think that’s one of those skills that I think is, you know, necessary to develop that observation memory. Like, if I could close my eyes and repaint the painting that I’m making on a separate scrap of paper, I probably could type of skill set. I did. I have a funny little question, which is, do you think you could paint a scene from one of your favorite areas without any references, just from memory? I.

James McGrew: 35:00

Definitely I have, and I do, yes, when I was a kid, I loved fishing. I love trout, and from when I was eight years old, I started using pastels to draw very species of trout. By the time I was a teenager, I could paint any species of trout that lived in the Sierra, just from memory, the different color patterns. And, you know, Rainbow, golden, cutthroats, browns, brook trout, which are actually char, but they all have very different color patterns and thin Ray patterns and shapes and everything. And those were the things that I was, you know, for a little while there, that I love to paint a lot and but the other landscape too, you know certain key things in Yosemite. Yosemite is in the Grand Canyon in Zion, Yellowstone. So many of our big, iconic Western national parks are almost more like painting portraits than landscapes in some respects, because, like, if you know you’re reading Edgar Payne’s book or John Carlson’s guide, landscape painting, like just so many of these books about you know how to modify the landscape and and be able to orchestrate a landscape that kind of works, that only works when you can really fudge things a lot with Yosemite, the features are so iconic and so well Known, like the abanici and Yosemite refer to Half Dome as tissiak. And there’s an Indian legend behind that, and everything. And like, there are, like, there’s, there are profiles of a human face, couple of them in the Face of Half Dome, and with the lichen streaks and oxidation patterns on the streak on the face. And if you don’t get that right, you look at the geology right, like people recognize it right away. And it’s like messing up the features of somebody’s face, or, if you’re doing a figure study, and getting their one arm kind of wonky or something, you know, or the hands, is always, of course, you know, really hard to paint, too. So that’s just something that is really important when painting really well known landscapes, and you you have to kind of rely on that knowledge of it being more like a portrait painting than just a straight landscape. But that’s not to say you can’t fudge things, because we do perceive things differently. And my biggest struggle with our big national parks, and so many artists have said the same to me, is, how do you capture the sense of scale? You know, if we’re looking almost 5000 feet up at the Face of Half Dome, or two and a half 1000 feet at Yosemite Falls, we’re looking 12 miles across the Grand Canyon. And how do you gather and convey the sense of scale with the emotional impact, without just resorting to pure abstract you know, works or or like Bierstadt did and completely move mountains around, or Moran did the same thing and do lots of degree Thomas Hill and by the way, all those guys also study with scientists. And at the time frame the science expeditions, the Hayden expedition, things like that. Scientists were working side by side with photographers and painters, and they were all sharing the knowledge interchangeably between each other, so there really wasn’t the kind of difference that we see today of different fields, but I think that’s all really kind of instrumental in coming up with the landscape piece of one of our national parks, which for me, the reason I paint them partially is because they’re so beautiful and just so inspirational. And when I was a kid, and when I was younger, like that was just my inspiration, I just was excited and moved inside to do it. But then something changed when my first daughter was born. She’s now 29 and in fact, her and her husband are due in July, some of your grandfather, but so that’s even adds more to it. But I remember there was this day I was near Glacier Point in Yosemite, and when I was in my late teens or so, you feel kind of invincible, especially if like you’re an athlete or something, and you’re you’re out in these places, and you’re not really thinking about the potential danger times. And there was one day where there was just this light bulb that I remember really clearly, and I was at this ledge of a cliff, and I was trying to get a better perspective for a photograph, and I stopped, and I was the first time I ever really remember feeling that and thinking, Oh, I have another reason to be careful now. And it was my daughter, you know, had been born, and that also changed the trajectory of the purpose of my work. And it wasn’t any longer just because it was something that inspired me and I just wanted to share it with other people for kind of selfish reasons, because I liked it, it was really more because I was trying to help inspire people to conserve nature for future generations, and the need to help protect the environment and all of our national our big Western national parks that kind of laid the foundation for the national park system that is not just now nationwide, but spread around the world. Started with Yosemite. In 1855 with the first tourist party, where Thomas Ayers did a series of drawings of Yosemite Valley that then were reproduced, and then that were photographers. And then one of the most famous artists in the country that time, Albert Bierstadt, came and painted. And then he was in his studio, he had a couple pieces of Yosemite, and that was when senators and congressmen and he, it’s also said that may have been Abraham Lincoln, may have been influenced. So the signing the Yosemite grant in 1864 was highly linked to that. And then our early parts like that became national parks like Yosemite in 1890 surrounding the Yosemite grand and then Yellowstone in 1872 and same with the Grand Canyon And mukuntu weep, which is actually Zion today, and so many other parks owe their existence to the works of artists spreading awareness to The public and to Congress and presidents that ultimately inspired legislative support that set aside those places. And today we can look at them as the places that most really get people inspired. I was reading The FASO Way, one of the things that Clint sends out, he sends out these wonderful writings that really are make you think. And today’s writing was from another writer, Laura, I have to look up the name again, but it was a really intriguing thought process of creativity and how humans have creativity that cannot be replicated with AI. And even more interesting than that was that humans ultimately unlearn creativity. The propensity and opportunity of creativity is much greater in young humans than it is as people age and we think we know things in the environment, we lose a sense of wonder and curiosity and just thinking about what if and why and how that we think of more when we’re younger. And I think national parks, because they’re so otherworldly, so beautiful, they’re places where we can experience wildlife that is dangerous, often deadly, that it gets our heart beating fast, makes us really take note and be like, Wow. And these giant cliffs and geysers and waterfalls and 3000 year old giant sequoia trees that think about the human history that’s occurred in one lifetime of one tree, and all these things that are just so inspiring to people, even the most jaded people who think they know what a tree is, or they know what the landscape is, they know what beauty is, and they Go to National Park, and they still just can’t help but hold back, you know, tears sometimes, or just keep their mouth closed as they know,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:50

yeah, yeah. That’s the beauty of, you know, going to the source, right? Going to nature. And also just hearing about how your, you know, your view of your subject matter has evolved over time, you know, from enthusiast down to really just wanting to Cheryl that there’s so many beautiful things that need to be protected and taken care of. And I’ve also, when I took my environmental science class in high school, they kept repeating the phrase like, We are the stewards of the earth. Because, you know, we’re, we have like the we’re like the top of the food chain at this point, and it is our duty and responsibility to maintain harmony within that food chain, because we have the wherewithal to do it. I mean, animals are just going to continue doing what they’re going to do, and humans are. We’ve been interrupting that for so long that it’s good to be conscious of our own consequences, of our own actions, and to protect and maintain the beautiful earth that is honestly like a miracle in so many senses. So I think it’s very inspiring to hear you know how your relationship to this, this very long term relationship with your subject matter, has evolved in a beautiful way. You know, thinking about future generations like that.

James McGrew: 44:10

There’s an old proverb, and it’s, I’ve seen it attributed to various different cultures, but it’s, it’s basically the same thing, and that is, take care of the earth. It wasn’t given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. And that’s really true.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:27

That hits hard, because it’s true. I mean, I constantly were like, Oh my gosh, what? What’s coming next, but I feel like that’s anyone who studies the environment. I think losing constant dread and anxiety about it one of the reasons I loved my environmental science class, but it was also like, you know what? I think I like not knowing sometimes, because

James McGrew: 44:50

it’s so true, I have that thought quite often, like, once you know, like when you’re just blindly seeing pretty things in nature, like, great. But then once you want. Understand the ecological complexity and the influence of, let’s say, endangered species. For example, you know, you think, Oh, that’s a pretty tree, or that’s a pretty animal or fish or whatever, and then you realize it’s completely destroying the ecosystem, because people brought it there. And you know, it’s like, once you know these things, you can’t unsee them, and then know them. And it does totally change your perspective of looking at the world. And there is definitely both a positive and a downside to that, actually, but it keeps me constantly driven to work harder and harder at not just painting better and better like that’s an endless, you know, trajectory, endless work, but also endless learning about my subject and being able to tell that story in the background, and especially today, this is one of the most pivotal moments. The rate that we’re losing species, species diversity, and everything is happening so incredibly fast, and most people are completely unaware, because we just don’t see it in the news. There’s so much other stuff that’s monopolizing news time that unless you’re really actively looking for it, you’re probably not aware of how much things are really happening and just how fast. So I try to keep up on that stuff and also incorporate that into my work. And like I said, I’m emotionally driven with it, in addition to the just the background,

Laura Arango Baier: 46:18

yeah, yeah, it’s the the so called 11th Hour. Oh, I remember that. That’s also very but you know, sometimes there is good news, environmental good news, which, you know, we always celebrate that, but in your time, oh yes, there’s actually a good amount of good news. It’s just, you know, it’s good to not be totally riddled with bad news. So I tend to follow you know, both the very serious news and then also the fortunately, much happier news about breakthroughs in science that are helping the environment, like the breakthroughs about, oh, we’ve come up with a way to undo microplastics, which I’m excited about, because I think that’s one of the biggest risks for the future of humanity, and it’s always been a risk for the environment and for animals. And yeah, anyway,

James McGrew: 47:11

I do incorporate, you know, my upcoming next show, for example, I do have a few paintings that I have actually coming out, so like the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibit, I have a painting of a of a juvenile, recently fledged California spotted owl. It’s just this downy little fuzz ball with these giant dark eyes. And you can’t help but like, have it melt your heart and just want to reach out and hug them. They’re just so adorably beautiful and cute, sweet and just heartwarming. And having spent a lot of time around them is just unbelievable. And they are in serious trouble. I paint a lot of California condors. I mean, they were down to like, 22 individuals left on the planet, and it’s been an incredibly intensive effort to just keep them live. And they’re still critically endangered. But you know that is, that is a really big issue that we are dealing with. But on the flip side of that, I try to remember that there’s a lot of stuff that’s really hopeful another species, the peregrine falcon, which has inspired me since I was a teen, and at that time, they were really critically endangered. Couldn’t see them in the wild. I mean, I remember reading Galen Raul’s write ups in National Geographic and his photography, as a photographer. He was a nature photographer and rock climber, and the story about how they were critically endangered because of DDT thinning their eggshells, and they were all dying, and they were crashing catastrophically globally. And this is the top predator of the skies, the fastest creature on earth. They fly at 240 miles an hour, and you know, they they’re not afraid of anything, and they’re just the most phenomenally incredible creatures to watch when they’re so not just fast, but agile, and they’re also incredibly intelligent. They’re related to parrots, not other raptors, and they have an incredibly high level of intelligence and creativity, problem solving, they use tools. They make toys. They work together as teams, male and female, mate for life, and they do all kinds of things together. And so the more time we spend in nature, the more we really see stuff that we may not otherwise notice. And it’s been spending hundreds of hours out where peregrine falcons live on the cliffs of my favorite national parks, and getting to observe them so much that I’ve observed those behaviors and watched juveniles learning to teach themselves to make toys and hunt and just things that you don’t really see written about otherwise. And that’s all come from just a lot of time in nature and observing nature. And in the 1970s there were no peregrine falcons in Yosemite they’d gone completely extinct locally and through intensive efforts of the Peregrine fund, funding things, the National Park Service and biologists, rock climbers and all these people working together, age. Educators, scientists, and of course, the Endangered Species Act was created in early 1970s DDT was banned and other organochloride pesticides. And so through all this cooperative work and understanding and research and funding, peregrine falcons were brought back from the brink and delisted in the late 1990s and now there are, like, 15 nesting pairs on average every year in Yosemite. And I’ve watched the same pairs returning to the same nest sites year after year, and watched them changing their hunting behaviors and their teaching behaviors with their children according to their Young’s different personalities and how many young they have. And it’s just, you know, this wonderful ray of hope to see what we can do when we put our minds to it, the works of artists and scientists and educators and and everybody. It’s never hopeless. You know, we see some stuff that, at times, can definitely make us feel kind of down, but it’s important to remember the potential that we have that’s so wonderful and that it can keep us going and keep us pursuing, helping to protect these things and inspire.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:11

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 23rd of April, with our special guest, Shana Levenson. You can find the sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BOLDBRUSH provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBUSH show.com. The FASO Podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year. Then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, yeah, and especially now that we are in the prime time of information, right? Like we are in the information age through and through, where we have direct access to everything online, just information wise. So it’s good to, not only, like before, just rely on, like, the really sad news on on the TV, it’s like, no you can also seek out, like, one, positive news two ways that you can also help support, you know, anything that has to do with wanting to support a cause, like with the Falcons or with any other species, because, yeah, people can do a lot of magic when they come together. And that’s what really matters. Yeah, absolutely insane. And I think the other beautiful thing is, of course, that you’ve been mixing, you know, these two aspects of, like, your love, which is like art and national parks. Was there a moment where you realize, like, Oh, I’m, you know, working as a park ranger, but I’m also making, like, a really good side income from painting. What was that like for you?

James McGrew: 54:36

It was actually the reverse my income as an artist, and was making the summer side income as a ranger, but I not at the very beginning, though, like the very first few years. Of course it was, it was always a struggle, and I did work much longer seasons with the Park Service. My first couple seasons, actually, I was still in grad school, so. So after my summer internship in Yosemite, I went to grad school, and then I had a couple of winters where I worked at Crater Lake National Park in Southern Oregon. I was at Southern Oregon University, and so on weekdays, I was at school, and then on weekends, I drive to the park and do snowshoe walks interpretive programs up at the park. And then once I graduated, went back down to Yosemite. And so it was initially, yes, there were longer seasons and and more reliant on that, but it wasn’t very long before I was, I was really doing a lot more of the painting and relying on that as a bigger source of income. But they still, they both still go hand in hand. And there are some ways we can reach people through visual arts beyond the scope of the immediate vicinity, the landscape. And there are ways that we can connect people in nature, right there in the moment. I mean, there’s no substitute for watching a bird dropping out of the sky at 200 miles an hour. Or watch a bear, you know, hunt something right in front of you. Or watch a mountain lion jump 15 feet in a single leap up a cliffside in complete silence and just disappear. Or have a great, great owl fly out of a tree and go right by you like a ghost without the slightest sound whatsoever. And they’re gigantic owls. You know, there’s just, there is no substitute for these kinds of experiences. And being able to share those with people on site and inspire them and teach them is really great, too. So I’ve always really liked the balance, regardless of what the income level is and it’s, it’s really the payment for me has always been seeing people smiling, seeing their eyes open wide and and seeing them connecting through every way that I can, I can manage to try and share what I can with people,

Laura Arango Baier: 56:51

yeah, yeah. And I’ve heard so many artists say the same, where they feel like Lucky, almost like, wow, I make money off of this thing that I really love, and I’m just doing it because it fulfills me and it makes me wake up happy every morning. And sure, we struggle with some paintings here and there, because no painting is ever in the park. They’re always a struggle in the park, but not always. But to a greater extent, though, it gives you a really good reason to get up in the morning and enjoy just being alive and the celebration of how every moment is a new moment. You know, the eternal Now, as they say, I think is, is one of those things that you know, unfortunately, we do need money to live unfortunately, but it is wonderful to have that as, like, almost like, the secondary reason, or even tertiary reason for painting and for, you know, being out in nature, which is extremely amazing. If I wanted

James McGrew: 58:01

to get rich, I wouldn’t try to be an artist or a park ranger or a teacher or an educator. You know, that’s never been the purpose for any of it, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:09

Yeah. It just feels like the lucky bonus that you get for doing what you love every day, which is extremely inspiring as well. Though. I think, you know, it’s, I feel like a lot of artists we have like this calling for it, right? It’s not like you said, like, if I wanted to be rich, this isn’t what I would do, but I do it because it is compulsory. It is what my my insides are screaming for. It’s I have no other thing that could ever fulfill me this deeply. And of course, money could never have that so but we still need it.

James McGrew: 58:44

It’s true. And even as an artist, though, it’s very easy to get derailed and sidetracked, and you do have to make a living. And I’ve, I’ve put two daughters through college, and they’re both adults now. And you know, it’s has not been an easy road, that’s for sure, and there’s a lot of pressure to, you know, make a living, not just for yourself, but supporting a family, and especially like in that case, when you’re raising kids, all completely dependent upon your income. And so it’s easy to get lost in terms of the focus. And you can be focused more on the income and the business side of stuff, and winning awards, or getting into a gallery, or getting recognition from your peers or from judges and or magazine articles. And you know, I’ve been very fortunate to achieve all of those things, but the times that I was really seeking them, I think the most because it just felt like I had to because I needed to support the family, and I was more focused on it for financial purposes than, you know, inside, some of the most important realizations in my career came when I kind of just forgot all about that and just said, That’s not what’s really important. And I remember in one of the Maui planner painting invitationals in 2020 and I’ve done most of the major invitationals on the western US for many years, and had a great time painting with wonderful artists and friends, and inspired to learn from them, and met so many wonderful collectors and so many wonderful people at the shows and the judges and and things. And I remember John Stern, who was the judge for Laguna Invitational for many, many years, and the Maui Invitational for many years, well respected writer, art critic and curator and everything and and it seemed to me, I was for a while, I was always trying to figure out what a judge had in mind when they were trying to figure out who to give an award to, or what painting to give an award to. And I’ve at times asked judges, okay, so what made you give my painting an award, or this one or over that one? And you know, sometimes our judges just say, I pick what I like, and that’s all they’re willing to say. Other times they’re they’re going to define it based on, you know, the objective criteria of design, composition, edge work, other than more intangible stuff, like the emotional connection that they had and and so I was always trying to figure these things out. And and I would see like, for example, what John was looking at for Best of Show paintings. And I realized so many of his awards had architectural things, just contemporary buildings and things in them. And like, well, that’s not really what I want to paint. I do paint really landmark architecture, really interesting Native American things and early national parks history and some of the grand lodges and things like that. But for the most part, I’m painting nature without human influence as much as I can, as pristine as possible. And so I thought, you know, it’s just it’s not going to work. He’s never going to give me an award. And so in 2021 I went to Maui. Told my family before I left, I’m not expecting awards. I’m not looking for awards. I’m not looking for sales. And I don’t care what happens. I I just really, really need to paint from my heart and paint what’s really important to me. And because of what’s going on in the Hawaiian Islands, the rate of extinction is incredibly high because of island biogeography and all the introduced species and how fast things are disappearing. So I made it a goal to find and paint and incorporate endangered species into every painting that I did during that week, and I largely stayed away from people doing things on my own. I mean, of course I tended to paint out some things, but I managed to get a permit to go up to the summit of Haleakala and drive up there in the evening, did a painting at sunset, drove down and camped at night, howling wind and driving horizontal rain all night long. Woke up in the morning. It was still crazy weather. Drove up to the summit, 3000 feet up, and you got to the summit, we were way above the storm clouds. It was crystal clear, no wind, totally calm. You could see a blanket of storm all around the island below. I started hiking at dawn. Hiked a few miles down into the crater, walking on one inch tall frost crystals on the trail. It was just the biggest crystals I’d ever seen. And as I got down into the crater, there was nobody around, no sound. Is the only time in my life I’ve been on this planet and heard nothing, no airplanes overhead, no birds, no wind, no insects, no voices, no cars. It was the most magically peaceful, incredibly beautiful experience as I watched the sun come up stream over the fog into the valley, into the crater there caldera and and then I intentionally put some endangered plants in the foreground. The Haleakala Silver Sword lives and is endemic only to the summit of Haleakala and nowhere else in the world, and they are critically endangered because of the risk of climate change pushing their habitat up higher and higher, and they’re basically going to run out of habitat pretty soon, but also grazing and the harvest and habitat damage and things and so it was really important. So throughout the rest of the event, I painted green sea turtles, Hanu and the scarlet honey creeper, Ev and Nene, the Hawaiian goose, and just, you know, all these endangered species, I was really fortunate to be able to find I did, like, months of research leading up to that, to figure out where they were. And I couldn’t take credit for it either. I mean, people helped me out a lot to be able to get to places and know where things were. And I submitted the pieces to the show without expecting anything to come of it, except I just wanted to tell the story. And my daughter flew out, my younger daughter, Janelle, and. And she forgot her her clothes for the gala that night, so we had to go shopping in Lahaina, and we’re going from store to store and trying to find stuff for us. We’re late coming in. And some friends, when I got there, said, Congratulations. And I said, what? You know, I didn’t expect anything. And I said, Did I win something? And she said, you kind of want everything, but I had, I had actually won the Best of Show from John stern and the for that painting up in Haleakala, also the honor Hawaii, honor Maui award, collective Choice Award, and some other awards. And I just that was really important for me, because I realized at the moment that we and, and it wasn’t like I just came at this on my own, like I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me, like she was saying, like, you gotta, you gotta, just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true, and I that’s exactly what I did for that show, but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit to that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work, and, you know, getting those, those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:30

beautiful, yes, yeah. I think that’s definitely something that I relate to. And I think many of our listeners will definitely relate to that feeling of, oh, if I, you know, get into this show, or, like, if I try to win this one award, then I’ll feel like I’ve really made it as an artist, and I can, you know, put it on my website and my CV, and feel like I’ve accomplished something. But oftentimes, I’ve met a lot of people who feel like a sense of emptiness afterward, where it’s like, maybe they’ve won the award, but then the high kind of gets lost because, I mean, yeah, you won the award, people move on. I mean, everyone else is going to move on too and try to win their other awards over there. And you might as well do it with work that you actually love to do, and if you win, that’s, once again, the bonus, right? The secondary bonus. So I think it’s very inspiring and very on brand for you to suddenly stubbornly persist with your vision. I think of yourself, you know, at that teacher is like, yeah, no, this is my vision. I’m just gonna stubbornly pursue it, and it will reach the right people. And that’s what counts, you know, yeah, and actually speaking of reaching the right people when, like, how was it for you? Like, how did you find your first collectors? And then what did you learn about that process that has helped you? I guess today in your career,

James McGrew: 1:08:07

I was just putting my work out there. I mean, I I just tried to get get my work into galleries, and figured that was the avenue to do so. And I was fortunate that that did kind of work and enough people. I mean, of course, I got turned down from places and shows all the time, like everybody, and I shouldn’t say everybody. I know some people that you know have incredible opportunities all the time, but there were lots of things that didn’t work out. But the ones that did, I just kept focusing on those and moving forward and and I felt like, the funny thing is, early on in my career, I was in that place where I didn’t think about sales, I didn’t think about any kind of recognition or anything, and I was only focused on just painting from the heart, what I love to do, and the stories I wanted to tell. And then over time, because I had to make the living and I had to support a family, is when I got sidetracked, I think, and having to think about the other stuff. And, you know, a number of years ago, really made that full circle transition to the realization that the awards and everything are great and the sales are, you know, great, but the bottom line is, if you just speak from the heart and you’re authentic and do what you did this for in the first place, hopefully things will work. And if it’s inspiring you, it’s probably going to inspire somebody else. If you’re working hard enough at it, and you’re really putting enough out there, it’s probably going to connect with somebody somewhere. And I just try to, and I realize that, you know, most of my work probably won’t connect with people, and that’s okay, but the ones that do, I’m really grateful for every one of those opportunities and those connections. And you know, obviously when somebody buys a painting, that’s always such a wonderful recognition. And I have some collectors that, you know, just brand new, collectors that have bought one painting, sometimes through a gallery, sometimes directly, sometimes from a plein air event, and they, you know, meet me while painting on site, or they see me painting out in a national park. And I give him a card and and say, Well, you know, I’m in these galleries, and you can go see my work over here. And because you can’t ever sell a painting in a national park, so that’s illegal, only concessions can sell in a national park. So I’ve never sold a painting in a national park. I’ve always just, you know, say, you know, if I’m inside, like, well, there’s the Worthington gallery in Springdale or in Grand Canyon, like over at cold studio, if I’m in Yosemite is like at the Ansel Adams Gallery. And, you know, wherever I am, I just refer people to something, but I forgot where I was going with that. Collectors. Oh yes, collectors, how to connect with those connectors. So, you know, it’s just, I think being present, being out there, putting your work in galleries, but then also doing plein air events was a huge door to open up a lot of avenues to collectors. Other galleries, other show invitationals came about that way. And I have had so many other opportunities arise because of those. And plein air events can be incredibly exhausting. It’s a huge amount of work and intensive painting in a short amount of time and subject to the weather and conditions that occur at that time, many of them have quick draws, and so you’ve got two hours to paint a painting, and I would often do like a 12 by 24 it’s about as big as I could do on a two hour window, and that required a huge amount of focus ahead of time. I’d usually have to think it through, visualize it in my mind, usually after a week of painting in that location, whichever park it was in, and and then just give it everything I had for two hours, and I could practically fall over and pass out afterwards. I just, you know, so much energy goes into painting in those situations, but to have the crowds around connecting and talking with you and and seeing the landscape and everything, that’s a really valuable opportunity to help inspire people and get people not just to connect to the work, but also to realize the relationship that artists and art have had with the preservation and public awareness of our national parks and the environment as a whole. And so I really value that opportunity. I’m always grateful for those those chances and those meetings and in those collectors so a lot of my collector base kind of came about that way. Some of them from other big national shows, like the American impressionist society national exhibit and OPA and the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit and and things like that. And and then International, you know, online competitions, the art salon, and they actually just bought one of my pieces for their permanent collection for this year’s exhibit. And so I’m excited for that show. And so we just, you know, every time you just, I think, if you just paint and put your heart in to it and put enough work out there and let enough people see it, it’s bound to connect with somebody at some point. And that’s just kind of a chain reaction that keeps building. If you keep keep at it, and keep putting it out there and keep continually working at it,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:09

yes, yeah, there’s no instant gratification. There no

James McGrew: 1:13:13

it’s a long, long process. And like, I’m especially grateful for my long term collectors. And I have one couple in California that has over 30 paintings, and you walk into their house and it’s filled with some of the best artists who have paint California like their whole house is a museum floor to ceiling. Actually have a few collectors that have lots of you know, paintings in their walls like that, just jam, salon style everywhere. And then I have collectors that have, you know, one painting per wall and just an assortment of different types, and some that can only, you know, afford a small piece. And I really value every one of those and along the whole spectrum,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:57

yeah, yeah. I mean anyone who can appreciate a painting and hang it up on their wall and live with it every day, right? See this painting every day. I think it’s, it’s an honor. It is, yeah, yeah. And actually did want to ask you, because you did so much, really tough public speaking learning on the go, do you find that there are elements of your your time, you know, doing public speaking at the parks that you pull into your career as an artist that has helped you with speaking to people about your work, absolutely.

James McGrew: 1:14:32

And you know, on one hand, art should speak for itself, and you know, oftentimes it does, and a lot of artists are pretty shy and don’t like to go to show openings and things like that, or do a podcast like this, or teach a workshop, or get on stage at plein air convention and do a demo, or, you know, things, but I and I wouldn’t have had I not had that background in environmental education. Education and doing interpretation so much, I think it would, or at least I think it would have probably been a lot more difficult and but I mean, there’s it’s not just comfort and the ease of being able to talk to people. When it comes to doing an interpretive program, it’s a lot of years of learning the techniques to actually build it structurally and and really be able to maximize your ability to reach the widest audience, to really connect with those people, no matter where they are in the political spectrum or their cultural background, or where they’re coming from in the world their age, there’s just so many variables that come into play and and those things, maybe they come naturally to a lot of people, but at least for me, it took a lot of work and a lot of practice and a lot of learning from other masters at teaching and and constantly trying to learn those things. And I found them really important for especially teaching workshops, doing demos at events and and just talking to people at a show opening reception. Many, many people I’ve talked to have considered a painting, but when you’re talking about plunking down 1000s of dollars for a work of art, they want to know more than just what’s the signature on the painting, how pretty is the painting? What’s the status, what’s the you know, what’s the significance. They want a connection with the artist too, and they can read about it, they can listen to a podcast like this, but there’s no substitute for one on one, actual communications and seeing the artist process in the field, talking to the artists at a show, opening reception. And so many collectors have said that that was really important for them, and in many of my collectors, over time, have become very good friends, and I’m really grateful for those friendships, and obviously grateful for the sales, but I’m even much more grateful for the friendships that I’ve developed, and the fact that so many of them tell me that they just really love being able to See my work on the walls, and it takes them to whatever park it is that I have a painting of, and reminds them of their experiences there, or inspires them to go up again. And for me, that’s that’s the most valuable thing when they’re sharing those those meaningful feelings and moments and what the work does for them and how it inspires them to make changes, ultimately, beautiful.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:27

Yeah, yeah. I think there’s so much about, like you said, there’s so many young artists who are introverted, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think many of us are quite introverted,

James McGrew: 1:17:39

but having I’m totally introverted. Oh yeah, me too, which is fine to learn how to break through that, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:46

yeah, you have to. I mean, a lot of the career of being an artist, besides painting, which is honestly one of the hardest parts, but it is literally like the given right for the career, like you have to have good work. You also have to be personable. You have to know how to talk to other people. Have, you know, like, not be afraid to be vulnerable and connect with people and even face, you know, the tough criticisms that come with it, like, Oh, someone might literally come up to you and be like, Oh, your work is really bad. It’s like, Oh, thanks. You just you have to, like, be like, Oh, thank you. Why do you think that you know or, like, just, you know it’s gonna happen, and you have to learn to not take it personally. Like, there’s a lot of interpersonal relationships that happen as an artist, especially if that’s like, the career that someone is pursuing. Yeah, and actually, this segues perfectly into my next question, which is, what advice would you give to someone who wants to pursue being an artist as their career?

James McGrew: 1:18:50

Well, the kind of things we’ve kind of covered so far, so if I could just kind of summarize them, I mean, obviously, be authentic and true to yourself. That’s number one. And because if you’re trying to fake something, it’s just not going to work. You have to speak from experience, and you have to speak from the heart and paint what you know, you know. And that is really number one. Number two is just the mileage. There’s no substitute for time in nature. Time painting from life. Doesn’t matter what your subject is. You know, figure painters doing life drawings, life paintings in Figure sessions. I tell kids all the time, like, if you draw or paint with one hand and all you have is the other hand, we’ll draw that or your pet or your sibling or the view out your backyard window. And like, we can’t always be it’s expensive and it’s difficult to get to national parks, especially with, you know, the advent of social media and crowding that we have today and stuff. So we can’t always, like, go to these incredible places that are super inspirational. Like, we can find beauty every day all around us, and we can find subjects to draw and paint and. Right? And the purpose of working from life so valuable. And I always tell people don’t work from photographs until you’ve painted enough paintings and taking photos at the same time to be able to see where and how and why. The human visual processing system is different than a camera recording system. And then once you’ve done enough of that, you can really know how to manipulate and adjust photos and incorporate them, and there’s nothing wrong with using them. The greatest masters of the 19th century all use photography. No matter how well they could draw the human figure or the landscape, they still use photography, and it’s just a matter of being able to know when and how to make those corrections and adjustments. One other thing about the importance of painting in nature and spending time in nature is we talked about plan art painting. But there’s one thing to just go out and paint outside. That’s another thing to really be present when you’re out in nature. Slow down, focus on everything around you and just really be in touch with everything and open up all of your senses. Be really mindful and be aware of the way you feel, the way the sun is or the wind on your skin, the smells that you’re smelling, the fragrances the flowers that are blooming nearby, or the way that light changes and shifts, and the way that an animal moves, or the way a bird, you know, song is actually I’m hearing bird songs running right now, you know, singing, or all these different things that ultimately come into play, And there is no substitute for time in nature, painting and drawing direct from life, but also just observation, like Asher B Durand and like all these 19th century masters talk about the importance of just studying nature, and part of that is book studying. We talked about my school background, but way more important that is just the observation and really connecting and opening yourself up and being really present without being distracted with other stuff, or, you know, what’s going on in the internet, or your music you’re listening to, or whatever, we just really, really be present in that I have found to be invaluable with really slowing down and incorporating a lot more into my mind and experiencing more, seeing more along the way too. But then also, like we were talking about, the other side that’s really valuable is that interpersonal communication, being open, listening to everybody, incorporating other people’s perspectives and opinions and not taking things personally. You know, I mean, we’ve all done that. We’ve been there at times and taken criticism really painfully from a show rejection or a gallery rejection and or something not working out or appear, not recognizing your work or whatever. And like, I don’t really pay attention anymore on social media. And for a long time, a long time ago, it seemed like it did matter. But now I just use it when I I want to put something out there to try and connect people with the subject that I’m painting, you know, add the interpretive, environmental story behind my work, or help other artists with questions that they have about materials, techniques or or things like that. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s all about just helping others, listening to others, sharing, and trying to just tell the story that of what inspires my work. And then, of course, the the business side of just straight making sales. You know, you really I greatly value and respect and trust all of my galleries, and that’s a really important relationship. They trust me. We have good relationships. We know we’re not going to take each other’s sales or, you know, or undermine something. And you know, somebody sees a painting in a gallery, and you know, they see my work later, I will give the commission to the gallery, and the galleries know that, and I think that’s really important to build that trust. And I really genuinely, like all the people who are the directors and owners of my galleries, and it’s taken a long time working. I mean, it’s hard to even get into a gallery when you’re starting out and and it’s hard to find the galleries that you can trust and and I’ve had some less than favorable experiences of some galleries that were not trustworthy. And, you know, obviously I’m not in those galleries anymore, and but all the galleries that I’m in now, I really, really value those relationships, and so it’s important to find those connections that you trust. And then there’s the stuff that we can do, like we’re doing right now. FASO is an incredibly valuable tool, and it’s not just because you are interviewing me on behalf of FASO, but I do have to say that genuinely, the things that you guys do are invaluable to. Marketing into making sales from this podcast, listening to your interviews, listening to my friends and other artists that I’ve worked with. Some are, you know, just acquaintances. Some are really good friends that you interview, and it’s always fun to learn from them and gather more bits of information here and there, or just, you know, see, that’s so cool. You know, I watched their career develop, too, and but then also the marketing that you guys do on social media, your own marketing, the the collectors alerts. So when people sign up for my newsletter, which is the most important way to connect with my collectors, and you know my newsletters that I send out is the most important way that people get the majority of info for upcoming workshops, from upcoming shows, things that I’ve had happen and and then when people sign up for that, they also have the opportunity to sign up for new artwork alerts. And so every time I put a painting on my website, I get emails from people inquiring about a piece. And, you know, people buy paintings that way all the time, and most time they’re headed to galleries. So the galleries make the sales, and oftentimes before they even get there, and it’s because of the the artwork alerts that you guys put out there. So anyway, and every way that we can put our work out there is valuable and and I have to say it’s you guys are a really valuable tool in that, that that toolkit,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:31

yeah, well, we’re really happy to hear that. I also use all of the my websites, also FASO website, and objectively, you know, I know that I’m obviously, like their host for their podcast, but I also really benefit a lot from using a FASO website. And it’s just, it’s it’s intuitive, it’s easy to use, and they’re always improving it. The team is really great. It’s a small team. They’re always happy to help. And I think in the end, you know, that’s better than you know, going for a bigger company where, like, you’re talking to an AI Chatbot. No hate on AI chatbots, but I think talking to a real person is a million times better

James McGrew: 1:27:10

or trying to design something yourself. Like, you know, I’d much rather have a paintbrush in my hand and be out in nature than on a computer screen.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:27:16

So Exactly, yeah, even though now FASO does have both capabilities, because they have a Squarespace option, where that is a FASO site, but with, like, the capabilities of the Squarespace, like changing it however you want. But for the most part, I think it’s also, I’m totally with you. It’s like, but

James McGrew: 1:27:34

that’s a relatively new invention, like, when I first developed this website a long time ago, it was either learn code, hire a professional, or your guys’s templates, and that made things such an easy segue into being able to put my work out there without all the other stuff. You know, hiring a professional meant having to constantly interact with them as a third party, having the FASO website, you can do it on your own whenever you want, and that’s super, super valuable, without having to know how to do the coding most time.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:09

Yeah, exactly, yeah. They really got rid of the gatekeeping of like, oh, well, in order to be a professional, you need to have, like, certain money to hire a coder to do your website. Instead, it’s like, Oh, you just pay for a website, and you already have these templates, which super great again, for anyone who wants to save time and use that time in the studio, like many of us. But yeah, really happy that that you’ve enjoyed it. And actually, that’s my next question, which is, of course, on your website, I’m sure you have this information. But do you have a year would you like to tell us about your upcoming shows? Or do you have any upcoming workshops? Anything you got going on that you’d

James McGrew: 1:28:51

like to promote? Sure, thank you. So workshops, nothing really set right now, but I am discussing things and for a workshop in Yosemite. So if anybody’s interested, just have them send me a message to my website. I’ll be compiling a list, so I’ll make sure I get those people aware when we do start setting stuff up. But as far as upcoming shows, I have the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit this summer down in Southern California, the the art salon in New York at the summer as well, and then this fall, I have shows in Grand Canyon and Zion invitationals for those two incredible places. I always have an annual show at one of my galleries in Berkeley, Holton Studio Gallery. They have an annual all Artist gallery. They have an incredible group of artists, and they make these beautiful solid oak and walnut frames. So we just send them the paintings, and they make the frames. They design them for the work. And it’s incredible opportunity there. And then the most impressive thing I’m working on right now is for my solo show that opens at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite. And. And that actually opens on May the fourth, and it hangs for almost couple months. And so that’s like the painting behind me right now, and that’s what I’ve been working really long hours, like 12 to 15 hour days the last couple of weeks to get things together for that upcoming show. And then I always have to provide for my galleries, Del Monte fine art in Carmel and Holton in Berkeley, Worthington gallery in Springdale, right outside of Zion and and then, of course, the antelopes gallery in Yosemite. And so it’s kind of juggling all those things and planning things far enough out, but right now, it’s, it’s really intense for an upcoming solo show.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:30:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thank you for being here despite I know how busy you’ve been. Seems like it’s been really hectic for you, so I’m really grateful that you were able to spare some some of your precious time for us here on the podcast.

James McGrew: 1:31:02

Thank you. My pleasure being here, and I really appreciate the opportunity, and I’m honored. And you know, it’s great to have the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:11

Yeah, of course, it was wonderful. And actually, before you go, do you mind telling us what your website and social media are?

James McGrew: 1:31:17

Sure? So at James McGrew fine art for social and Facebook and Instagram. I’m working on others, but haven’t had the time to put those together yet on other platforms and then. But my main place to go that is updated by far the most frequently and is absolutely the most important way to connect, is my website, and it’s James McGrew, fine art, com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:43

awesome, perfect. And I will include all of your links in the show notes as well. For anyone who’s just listening, go check out his work. It is absolutely breathtaking. Don’t miss out. And then if you can go see his work in person, real life, go check it out. So thank you.

James McGrew: 1:31:57

That is actually pretty important. Paintings do look different on screen than they do in person. I do a lot of work to try and create optical illusions with the working properties of my paint that can’t be replicated other ways.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:32:12

Just size wise, it really compresses everything into a different feeling. I mean that like you can’t really capture grandeur in such a small screen, you know, like you have to go see it in person. You know, as much as you can, if anyone really can afford to go do that or is nearby to one of the places where your work is for sure, go check.

James McGrew: 1:32:34

And another great opportunity with the website is the ability to write an artist statement for each painting and like, especially for my upcoming show here with all the interpretive environmental messages behind each important piece in the show, I do write a lot on the website, and that gives me wonderful opportunity to let people read all that information and make those connections so awesome. Be sure to read the interpretive stuff with it too.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:02

Yes, for sure, awesome. Well, thank you so much again, James, and I’m really happy it didn’t rain on us today outdoors, as you should be,

James McGrew: 1:33:13

started working outside and even on studio pieces more than 10 years ago, just because it’s closer to the plein air experience and don’t have to worry about when I do use solvents in the early stages of a painting. I don’t ever use solvents indoors anymore.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:27

So very smart, man. Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

“Beauty will Save the World” — Fyodor Dostoevsky

Three figures sit around a table, their bodies inclined toward one another, in communion around a shared cup. At first glance, the work feels flat. It is painted in reverse perspective, and thus, all lines converge, not at the horizon, but, instead, they point to you, the viewer. The longer you look, the less it feels like you are observing a scene and the more it feels like you are being drawn into it. Its stillness is not static but inviting; expectant. Then you notice the negative space between the three figures — it forms the outline of a chalice: The trio is the cup.

And suddenly, you realize you are the fourth person at the table and are being invited to drink from this sacred cup of Divine Love and Beauty. You are being invited to commune with the Holy Trinity — invited to sit at the table, as an equal, and drink.

This is the Trinity Icon, often called the greatest icon ever painted, and it was never meant to be merely seen because, unlike an image, an icon contains power. An icon empowers us to transport ourselves into a deeper reality — it bestows us with the power to leave the shadowlands of outer darkness and enter the true reality of inner light.

Images can be seen, but icons are known. Seeing may be believing, but beliefs are often false; beliefs are limiting. Knowing is always true and unlimited.

If you have an image on your computer’s desktop, you can click it all you want, but it will never be more than an image. However, if you click an icon on your desktop, what happens?

It turns out that the icon isn’t just an image but is instead a wondrous doorway that opens up into a deeper reality of a full application, a rich experience that allows you to use your creativity to accomplish something, to experience something, or to enter another world.

Beauty does that for us in the real world, transporting us to the more real kingdom of The Mystery that hides in plain sight behind all. And every true work of Art – art that depicts beauty – has the power to serve as an icon.

There are many mystery schools and mystic traditions in the world that share esoteric knowledge and practices with initiates — once the initiate has properly prepared himself. These practices point the way to dissolving the false self and entering into the true reality of The Mystery. Art, through Beauty, represents what I call The Mystery School of the Aesthetic.

When you enter into the “heavenly mysteries,” you, as an artist, are called to come back and express what you’ve experienced. True Art honors the first rule of the Mystery schools: As above, so below; on earth as it is in heaven.

Natural creation, under the hand of The Divine, expresses certain “heavenly” elements of beauty at all scales: The Fibonacci sequence of numbers where each number is the sum of the previous two numbers. The Golden Ratio, phi, which is approximately 1.618 and is related in interesting ways to the Fibonacci sequence. We find pi (~22/7) appearing again and again throughout nature. This is not mere coincidence. Simply observing nature, we see symmetry, balance, proportion, spirals, fractals. We see order. We see complexity. We see the logos. We see beauty. And, importantly, as the universe evolves, these beautiful truths are increasing.

Through these, and other, repeating elements of beauty, nature whispers something of the Heavenly mysteries and these elements tell us something about the nature of creation. Nature points to heaven. It is called nature because it reflects heaven’s nature. And the nature of heaven is also the nature of our soul. So too, should our Art reflect these beautiful, mysterious Truths. Our Art contributes to the charge, given around another table with a shared cup — a charge to build the new earth: on earth as it is in heaven.

Beauty reveals the ultimate Truth because Beauty is the ultimate Truth. And your Art is part of it.

Beauty is truth, truth beauty — that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. — Keats

The themes in this piece are the same ideas I explore in my forthcoming book, The Sovereign Artist. If that is of interest to you, please click here to join the waitlist.

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FASOFounder & Creativity Fanatic

PS - This email may be too long for some email programs. We suggest you watch/read it on the web by clicking the button below. Here are some Helpful Links & Resources from the webinar. We’re also sharing Shana Levenson’s special FASO affiliate link, join FASO today for just $99 for your first year of membership, click here.

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Read or Watch on the Web

Transcript:

Olya Konell 00:00

Welcome everybody to The FASO Show. You made it through. You survived. Normally, we have a much larger attendance, and I’m sure it has to do with the fact that we switch things up. So there’s always a little bit of like, hey, you know, email went to spam. So thank you for coming. We will be sending the recording out next week FASO customers get it in their the Marketing Center, in their dashboard. Or you can be subscribed to the sub stack newsletter The FASO Way, and you can get it there too. Or you can go visit that site and just click on it and watch it. So if you have to leave early, that’s where you will find it. And today, we have a very special guest. Can’t talk Shana Levinson, we had some technical issues, and so if at any point in time her video drops, we’re just gonna hang out and wait for her to pop back. Yeah, I like she mentioned, the power went out. So she is improvising and using her cell phone through her computer to get logged in. So a quick little bit I like to do about FASO. FASO, we are a website company. We we have artists. Can build a website through FASO, kind of like a Squarespace or Wix, but it’s specific to artists, and I’m going to be dropping some links in the chat if you’re curious about FASO, we’re actually sharing shayna’s affiliate links. So through Shana, you can get FASO for a year for $99, use her special link - https://l.faso.com/104 you can also do a 30 day free trial, and you can just go to FASO.com and learn a little bit more if you’re curious. But let’s get let’s get started. So welcome, Shana. Thank you for Thank you.

Shana Levenson 01:44

Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah.

Olya Konell 01:47

I thank you for our survey.

Shana Levenson 01:50

Thank you. Yeah, I know I just opened up my windows, which actually anybody that studied with me or knows has heard me talk, I actually keep my windows closed. They’re blackout shades, because my studio has daylight corrected light bulbs, so the light is consistent at all time. So I’m, I’m grateful to actually have these large windows for today, so that there’s light for you guys to be able to see me while Yeah, is out

Olya Konell 02:14

here absolutely and interesting that you say that totally not even the list of anchor questions that I had, but I hate, I love, I have a love, hate relationship with paintings that you’ve been working on for like, we’re working on something over a long duration of time, and if you’re using daylight, you come in the next morning and you’re like, No, that’s not right, because you painted it last night. And so that’s awesome that you have that controlled environment to be able to do that, which clearly is noticeable, because when I look at your hands and, like, when you do your veins, you know, and those little tendons and details, I’m like, dang, that is, like, consistently accurate, because that’s what always would mess me up, as skin tones, as time, as the as the lighting changes in the studio space.

Shana Levenson 02:59

So, yeah, I don’t know why people like to fight the light. I get the romance of it and the history of it, but for me, I just want consistency. Because if I’m in a pain at six in the morning, I want the light to be the same as if I’m painting at like, six o’clock at night. So it just stays the same.

Olya Konell 03:13

I love that. Do you have a recommendation for what bulbs that you use

Shana Levenson 03:16

or is, yeah, there I, you know, I the I need to look up the name of it, the T 90s, or we hadn’t. We might have had to get a different type. But they are, like, they’re basically warehouse, those lights up here, yeah, you can see, like, right here, yeah. So I have six of them, and the light that the light is just like, the perfect temperature for the paintings. They don’t provide, they don’t give any glare when I’m working, which is always tough with like Windows, you know, because I’m going to be working today in the dark, and so I’m gonna have to figure out how to not get glare on my painting while I’m painting today

Olya Konell 03:53

in the studio. Oh, my God, ideal. Yeah, yeah, no, that is a really good tip. And I guess I’m going to dive into my first question that I had for you. And just a quick heads up to everybody, this is a Q A session, so I want y’all to ask your burning questions. Feel free to drop them into the Q amp a box. You can also share them in the chat. This webinar isn’t you know, in on any specific topic, it is to connect you with Shayna, to learn from her, to figure out her teaching style, and see if you know this is somebody that you know you want to take a workshop with, or maybe you want to read her newsletter, or follow her on social media or whatever, to kind of learn from her. Because artists, we have a long history of learning from those that came before us. I mean, that’s how artists learn, and whether they go to professional Academy, or or or or not, they continue learning. You know, when they get out and they and artists just, that’s just what we do. So this is just our way of doing that in 2026

Shana Levenson 04:57

yeah, I hope I’m always learning. I’m, you know, pushing myself, because. Is, you can never learn too much, and you can always change things up. It’s always fun to find, like, new paint colors, new styles, yeah,

Olya Konell 05:07

new ways of doing something, or Yeah, being absolutely I love that. So we didn’t do an official introduction, but I would love for you just to share a little bit about who you are and what you do, and we’ll do,

Shana Levenson 05:20

yeah, I’m Shana Levinson. I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico with my husband, David Casson, and my two teenagers. Actually, one of my teenagers just left. He’s 16. He’s in boarding school now in New Jersey, but I have my 17 year old, my 17 year old girl here, and two dogs and two cats. So we have a full house here. I’m originally from Austin, Texas. My undergrad is from the University of Texas in fashion design. I originally wanted to work for Donna Karan or Alexander McQueen. I just loved elegant styles and different textures, which I started. If you follow my work, you could see that I love fabric and jewelry and all that kind of stuff within my paintings. Eventually, though I did eventually, once we moved to Albuquerque, me and my ex husband, I started once my son was one years old, I started taking classes at the Academy of Art in San Francisco over correspondence. Previous to that, all of my art was self taught. So when I found this program, I was like, This is so perfect, because I could be at home with my kids, and I can learn online. And the program that they have was really in depth. The teachers were interactive. We were filming ourselves. It was just they were really great and teaching us how to work at, you know, at a distance, and so that really guided me into my direction of portraiture and realism. And learning online was actually a huge guide for me when covid hit, because then I started teaching online, and everything I learned from the Academy of Art and how they taught online really helped how I taught online during covid, so that was really helpful. In the midst of me getting my degree, my master’s, I got divorced, and then started teaching little kids art classes. Finished my master’s, and then gradually started teaching teenagers, and then eventually adults, and got picked up in my first gallery in 2018 in Santa Fe and started slowly selling my work and increasing my prices and realizing the value of social media, because you really can have the ability to connect with a broader audience that can’t see your work necessarily in person, but want to collect your work. So found a really incredible collector base through social media. And yeah, I’m able to travel with my husband and teach workshops all over and paint full time. And as you all know, it’s not an easy job, because you never know when your next sale is going to come or but the that little bit of hustle and that little bit of fear, I guess, is what pushes me to work that much harder. So yeah,

Olya Konell 08:09

I love that. I heard something saying urgency is a great motivator, and I agree urgency is a great motivator, indeed, yeah, yeah. And I love your story, because it’s like, every single day we talk to artists that are like, they’re at the point where you were, when you were, you know, before you got your first gallery, right? They’re at that point. Maybe they’re teaching something, maybe they’re doing something. Maybe they’re getting some orders here and there for commissions. Maybe, you know, they sold something at a fair here and there. So so many of you guys that are listening are at that point. And one thing I need to make a point of that’s not age specific, like the art path is not linear, and you’ll see artists that peak early in life. And, you know, wait, peak early in life, you’ll see artists that peak later in life. So doesn’t matter how old you are, because I follow some amazing older artists. If there’s any older artists in our audience that just exploded overnight, you know, in their 70s, in their 80s, because they’re still doing it, because they have not given up. So, you know, I really want to drive that point home.

Shana Levenson 09:20

So because, Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, I teach so many students of all age ranges, of people who’ve, like, spent their time raising children and then later in life, eventually, finally, get back into creating art again. And so it’s never too late, you know, we’re all in a different place in our path. Because I always think that I started later, even though I was always drawing and painting my Well, not really painting, drawing mostly my whole life, and then teaching myself how to paint in the beginning, I just felt like I kind of came into the art world in an unconventional way, not necessarily the academic path that a lot of well known artists come through. So I just want to be that kind of voice for people. I apologize for my dog. I want to be the voice for people who maybe get their get become an artist in a unique way.

Olya Konell 10:09

Absolutely, yeah, because there isn’t the especially in today’s world with technology and the ability to learn online, close my door. Oh, that’s

Shana Levenson 10:21

sorry, guys, muscle the dogs, dogs,

Olya Konell 10:26

and do you still teach on online, or more of your in more in

Shana Levenson 10:30

person now, but I mentor, I have meant mentees all over the world, Australia, wow. Some people I did for years, and you know, I have a couple of mentees that were that are now showing in major galleries and selling their work, and it just really kind of neat to see them thriving from me just pushing them in direction. You know, it’s that one little thing that you can tell somebody like, Hey, you just do this or this or this, and then they can go off on their own. So I love being able to encourage, and it’s mostly women that I mentor, but encourage people to find their path, you know what I mean, and keep pushing them forward. So, yeah, I mentor, I do a few online workshops. Maybe I think the last one I did was a hand painting online demo, and that’s a recorded one that I have on my Big Cartel page. But other than that, I just love connecting and teaching in person.

Olya Konell 11:28

Okay, and so your Big Cartel page, if I was to find it, I’m just it

Shana Levenson 11:33

would be recorded. If you go to print, you can go to Prince, you know, on there,

Olya Konell 11:41

it will be in Yeah,

Shana Levenson 11:43

you can go on there, yeah, okay, workshops, workshops. See teaching, or see original workshop at the very bottom. Go to the bottom.

Olya Konell 11:57

I just can’t see Perfect, okay, yeah, I wanted to grab that and share it.

Shana Levenson 12:02

So, yeah, so you can see, like, all the bottom ones I’ve recorded. So, like, that’s really a lot balloons, how to paint dark skin, how to draw. So all those are previously recorded that I did during covid. So those are awesome people that purchase those. They’ll get they’ll get three different or they’ll get a couple YouTube links, and they get to see the whole demo, and keep the demo, and they get the reference as well.

Olya Konell 12:26

And you have, and going back to what you were saying about loving, loving fabrics, that is such like, it’s all over, like, texture and fabric, I could just tell you’re drawn to that, you know. Plus you have an amazing, beautiful sense of fashion yourself. You’re always like, so put together in such a beautiful, unique way. But definitely in your work, like it’s, it’s just amazing how you do lace I, I can’t, that’s

Shana Levenson 12:53

the one, yeah, that’s the one fabric workshop I’ve taught, which next weekend I’m traveling to Monterey, Mexico to teach a lace painting workshop. Oh, wow.

Olya Konell 13:01

That’s That’s cool, yeah, yeah.

Shana Levenson 13:03

And that class is filled up, so I’m excited to I’ve never been to Monterey. I’ve heard it’s beautiful. In October, I taught a lace painting workshop in Mexico City. So yeah, I’m excited to go to Mexico in a

Olya Konell 13:15

different place. So yeah. And if anybody wants to see more of shana’s work. If you go to her website, you can click on collections, and I’m just going to share that link again. You can also check out her Instagram for kind of like, what she’s working on in the studio, which, like you said, you have a lot of stuff that still needs to pop up on your side,

Shana Levenson 13:35

but yeah, yeah, I know I need to update my FASO. So, yeah, no.

Olya Konell 13:40

Um, so So this, everything we’re talking about right now, is your office actually on the topic of my second anchor question, which was your, you know, your offerings. So we’ve shared those links. And then as far as like, is there anything special and exciting this year that maybe you wanted to highlight that we can point folks to. I mean, the Urbina

Shana Levenson 14:04

workshop, and you know, is our Mo it’s been the most fun workshop. But I love all the workshops we teach and all the ones I’m offering very actually, which I think is really neat, because David and I are teaching together in the Ozarks at our friend Chelsea Nicole Contemporary Gallery. She’s hosting a workshop there, and we taught there last year, and she just puts together such a great workshop. But that workshop is painting from the photo workshop. And I think something that’s really valuable is teaching artists how to take good photo reference, what to look for, what are the pitfalls of working from a photo, and how to create realistic paintings. And so that workshop specifically, we bring all of our camera lighting equipment. Chelsea has a great printer. We talk about how to print and do a little bit of light Photoshop talk. And everyone paints a self portrait, which I think is a really important thing to learn, just to be able to see yourself in a really. Beautiful way, and tell a story with painting the self portrait. And then Urbino is really unique, because we are also are working from a photo, but Dave and I are providing the reference, and we Urbino is the birthplace of Raphael, and so we go and do tours and have a lot of great food, great wine, but we are doing workshops. The painting is inspired by like Raphael pose, so we’re going to use models that are, you know, have the that feel of like a Raphael painting, yeah. And we go through that whole process of painting from a photo reference. Also talk about the pitfalls from that. So we provide all of that. And the one perk about taking mine and mine David’s workshops is that Vasari, the paint company, they sponsor all of our workshops so that they provide all of the paint for us. Wow. So students never have to travel with paint for any of our workshops, and they get to try out all the bisari paint because we have an extensive paint list, because we aren’t a limited palette type of couple, especially me, I love like, the more paint the merrier. You know, I love playing with paint, so I don’t expect the students to have all the paint, but I think it’s neat for them to be able to try out the bisari paint and choose what really suits them to add into their collection of paints. So, yeah, so you just have to show up with your palette and your panel, and then and paint brushes, obviously, and then we bring all the paint. But Urbino is really neat because everything’s inclusive. So you paid a fee, and it includes your place of stay and all the food. And so they put together such a unique experience, because we go and do really neat tours, like half the day, and then paint half the day. And then some days, we paint all day, and then we just go and have pizza at a vineyard. So I can’t, I can’t express enough how unique the experience is, because it’s also not really super touristy, so it feels more authentic, as opposed to we used to teach in Rome, which was so busy and so compact, and we kind of felt exhausted by the end of the day every day, and then this is just more invigorating. And we stay in the same place, so we get to really know each other and the same the hotels. That was really, yeah, it’s a lot of fun, so I’m excited for that one.

Olya Konell 17:24

Yeah, it sounds absolutely amazing. And honestly, that is such a good

Shana Levenson 17:29

deal, yeah? And the neat thing, yeah? And the neat thing about this workshop also, is that they people can bring their partners or sisters or kids, and they probably teenagers, because probably be harder with smaller kids, but they have excursions for the people that aren’t painting. So for those that like to travel with their spouses, they the spouses have something to do all day while we’re painting, and then we come together again for like, lunch or dinner or whatever. So that’s I think, something that I think is really unique about this workshop is that it provides you to travel with a partner that is not you know. And I know that I have a student who’s in Australia, and she’s coming with her best friend and her mom. So her best friend and her mom aren’t going to be taking the class, but she’s taking the class. So we still have some spots left in that, in that workshop, and it’s going to be really a fun experience.

Olya Konell 18:21

Yeah, it absolutely looks like it, and I, I love the thought of it is true your environment and who you’re around, and the people that natively live there and work there, that slower pace, that energy, it totally kind of rubs off on you, and it allows you to have that more authentic Italian kind of experience. So nice. Yeah, I’ve

Shana Levenson 18:41

never eaten so much cheese in my life.

Olya Konell 18:43

And you probably like, what they say about Europe is, you come back, you’re like, I walked. I mean, I lost weight. I ate so much bread, yes,

Shana Levenson 18:52

butter, and we just walked everywhere. The food’s so natural. I mean, it’s fantastic. And Piero, who puts the workshop together, he is so lovely. And he he’s like, our group, he’s like, I’ve never served so much wine to a group of people, because last year, the people that took our workshop, they loved Italian wine. So it was just, like, a really fun experience. And you don’t have to be a drinker, but it just makes it, you

Olya Konell 19:17

know, yeah, but, well, yeah, the fun, the fun, I think fact that I’ve learned about European wines in general is most here in the US, they have to be labeled organic and this and that, yeah, there it’s like, by default, they that’s just how things are. So people feel better, so you could, yeah,

Shana Levenson 19:32

no, it’s fun. It’s a fun experience.

Olya Konell 19:35

That’s I’m looking forward to that. And I shared, and I shared the link with everybody. We will also include all of the links that we are sharing in the with the video when it comes out, so if you miss something, you will have it. Yeah. And the

Shana Levenson 19:48

one thing I want to like express about our workshops is our workshops are for all level. I think that people get intimidated because the style seems super advanced, but the way we’re communicating about how we mix color. Is very all level type. So we want to encourage, I mean, I’ve had students who’ve never painted an oil, who’ve only drawn or just new to it, and so we want it to be inviting for all levels.

Olya Konell 20:14

Yeah, I love that. And both of you are so talented you have when it comes to portraits. David did a whole series of the Holocaust survivors, survivors, yeah, and he is just, it’s just amazing. He is so good at capturing emotion and those stories. So this is definitely an amazing opportunity to kind of learn from two of the best. So I told my husband, I was like, You have no idea who I get to talk to today, and I’m like, it’s gonna be fun. So yeah, do you? And there’s a the other

Shana Levenson 20:48

workshop I just wanted to talk about is the one I’m doing in December, hand painting. So I’ve taught hand painting before, but this one, it’s in Albuquerque. It’s where I where I live, not it’s not gonna be in my house, but it’s at a studio space. It’s an art supply store, and underneath they have a studio space. It’s called artisan, and I’m teaching hand painting, but this is the first workshop I’ve taught where people are painting their own hands, because I taught hand painting before, and I’ve provided the reference. But here I’m going to talk to everybody about how to take good photo reference with hands, because I think hands can be really challenging to photograph when painting, and how to express emotion with painting hands and all the pitfalls of bad photo reference of hands. And then everyone will be painting their own hands. They can have one hand or both hands, or hold an object or whatever. You know, if they want to just focus on learning how to paint hands, they can just do the simple hand pose. Or if they feel like they’re a little bit more advanced and they want to tell a story by holding like an object, like in a family heirloom, or something that’s important to them, or even, you know, whatever the case may be, it’s going to be the first time I’ve taught this kind of workshop, which I’m really excited for, because I think hands are just as expressive as facial features. Yes, more. Yeah, yeah. Because you can’t hide your age on your hands. You know what I’m saying, your hands are going to age. Can’t Botox your hands, so they will. And I feel like, as your, I think your hands just it’s funny, because I just painted, I painted my daughter a couple years ago, and her hands were down, but I was like, oh my god, she has my hands. And I think that’s a really beautiful thing to get a sense of.

Olya Konell 22:23

So, yeah, and there’s definitely we don’t realize. I mean, I just had this realization while you were talking about expressing emotion, we don’t realize what our hands do sometimes when we are experiencing various emotions, you know, we’re because people will tend to do things with their hands. They’ll they’ll clasp them when they’re nervous. When you’re at the dentist and they’re drilling, you tense them up. You know, there’s all this stuff that you do. And so it’s interesting. And, you know, we get so much attention is put on the facial expressions. And hands are hard. They can be challenging, because when funky position you have to, you know, I’m like, okay, don’t paint the hand. Paint the dark spot.

Shana Levenson 23:08

Yeah, no. And I want to make it more approachable. I want people to feel comfortable, you know, fresh color. And so we will go over the anatomy, because I think understanding the anatomy of the hands is really important to understand painting hands.

Olya Konell 23:20

Yeah, and just out of curiosity, what’s your because you have such a beautiful way of capturing, like, the veins. You know, I have veiny hands, so I’m always, you know, yeah, how would I even do that? Do you is that? Do you do, like an underpainting with,

Shana Levenson 23:36

I do the of the vein, yeah, the vein? No. So I do like, a really intense color of the vein, like this turquoise light that I love from Sennelier, or like a blue and then I kind of glaze into it, so that way I can kind of soften it back. So it’s almost like building up, yeah, because

Olya Konell 23:53

that’s because it’s so hard if you’re layering that on top, or building it towards the top. But that makes complete sense, because then you can, kind of, like you said, you know, crazy, yeah, you weave the

Shana Levenson 24:02

color on top of it, Yeah, beautiful.

Olya Konell 24:05

I love that so. And then, you know, I want to talk a little bit about marketing and getting yourself out there. So early on, you said that you started, you know, you did teaching, and then you got into your first gallery. How did you get into your first gallery? Do you have any advice for an artist that was like, I Yeah.

Shana Levenson 24:27

I mean, one thing I want to say, first and foremost, is that you’re being in the gallery is different. It’s not like it used to be. I don’t think it’s the end all be all. I don’t think your success relies on being in a gallery. I think the nice thing about being in a gallery is that people can people can come and see your work in a space. But I want to make sure that artists advocate for themselves, because galleries can take advantage of artists, and you need to make sure that you feel like you’re being respected. You want to be in a space that you feel like your voice is being heard. So because you. A gallery would be lucky to have your art. I I feel like you can show your work online. You can be your own advocate. You can push your work yourself, but you a gallery should be feeling very fortunate to have your work, because we’re the ones spending all the hours in the studio. You know what I mean? They’re basically paying the rent for you to hang your wall, you’re painting on their wall, but if they’re not going to push your work and they’re not going to advocate for you, then you know, you want to make sure you’re advocating for yourself. So that’s first and foremost. But yeah, so getting into my first gallery, I lived near Santa Fe, and so David and I just decided we were going to spend a weekend in Santa Fe and just check out galleries. And I passed out a couple cards to galleries, just saying, you know him, an artist. I wasn’t even asking to be represented by them. I just was passing out my my card. And one of the galleries got back to me is like, Hey, I’d love to come to your studio and and see some New York. And so he came, he picked up a couple pieces, sold a couple of pieces right away. And then I started showing with them fairly for a few years. And then we and this is what I’m saying about speaking up for yourself, because I was I pushed my work a lot online, through social media, and they’re kind of an old school gallery. They don’t do a lot of advertising. They don’t push your work very much. And so I found myself bringing them all the collectors. There was a point when, like, I was probably bringing them 90% of the collectors, and people were buying the work online. They weren’t even finding the work in the gallery, and I was giving the gallery 50% of the sale. And there was a point when I was like, this is no longer a fair relationship. And so I went and met with them and said, I want to get 60% of these sales. If I’m going to bring you the collectors, I want to have 60% and they said no. And so I left the gallery, and I just felt like it wasn’t really respectful that if I was going to bring them so many art sales, that they weren’t going to provide any incentive for me. And I think that that was something that was like, I learned a lesson from because I’ve still been able to maintain my sales just as equally, if not more, so through social media. And I still show, and, you know, I show in New York, I show in a gallery in New York, a few pieces I just got picked up in a new a brand, brand new gallery in Seattle. So I’m like, riding in on the very beginning and hoping this gallery is successful. I really loved the guy’s personality and the openness I could have with him. My only complaint is shipping artwork. Oh, my God, that’s the thing, another thing you have to take note of, because shipping artwork can be really expensive, and so that’s something you have to take into consideration when getting into a gallery, but I think that you want to make sure, like, when you you have a like minded personality with the gallery owner, because I think that’s a really important that are gonna be like family. You want to feel like you’re supporting one another.

Olya Konell 27:53

So hypothetically, you know, if that gallery has said, You know what, that’s fair, we want to support you, let’s adjust that percentage. You probably would have stayed with them for sure, yeah, yeah. So I and then they

Shana Levenson 28:04

started trying to tell me what to paint, and then I was like, we’re done.

Olya Konell 28:09

Now you’re like, the controlling, you know, person in a relationship, like, yeah, no, that is such good insight. And for artists that are getting started, also a thought that popped in. I almost feel like that first gallery was a valuable lesson, but also a stepping stone into learning what you you know, what you don’t want. So that way

Shana Levenson 28:32

you were able. I showed them for a long time. I probably showed with them for about five years, and we had a great relationship at the beginning, but then I was like, I really needed to stand up for myself. And so, you know, I did nice. I kept maintaining my art sales, because majority of the paintings that I was selling through them was through, you know, Instagram.

Olya Konell 28:53

Yeah, there’s a I have noticed, I can’t think of the names at the top of my head. There’s a couple artists that I’ll see on Instagram their gallery will make the video, like a really nice reel or really nice post, they’ll post and they’ll collab with them. So I am seeing some galleries realize the value of social media, and they’re helping artists do that, versus the other way, versus the other way around, totally. And in this case, it was this amazing older artist. I’m like, she’s just adorable. She’s just the cutest thing in the world. And she’s painting this massive painting, you know, like, oh my gosh, I love that. And yeah, so there are, it’s just like, it’s like, dating or, like, a friendship or relationship, sure,

Shana Levenson 29:35

yeah, yeah. No, that my friend, the student the workshop, Dave and I are gonna teach in the Ozarks. So Chelsea Nicole also has a gallery. Well, it is her gallery, Chelsea Nicole contemporary, and they are very great at like, you know, she hired somebody just for social media, yeah, because it’s just pushing the work and making people see it. So they make really great reels on each individual artist. They make sure they’re you. Know, really showing, showcasing who they’re, who they’re showing. And so I have a few pieces with her, and I love it, because I just feel like they’re really working. You know, she’s a newer gallery. She’s probably been open for about a year and a half, two years, and I and she’s really working hard at pushing the artists. And she’s an artist herself. And so I think it’s really great that she’s like, advocating for other people.

Olya Konell 30:22

I love that. And one of the things that we always tell artists is there’s multiple ways of achieving getting your work out there. Because some people might only want to go the gallery route, and they’ll put all their energy into that and bypass maybe they’ll have some they might have a social media account, but that might not be their thing. And I’ve seen a lot of artists be very successful with getting their work out there, online, on their own, you know. So I do feel like it’s like a matter of finding what you know. You know yourself better than anybody, so put your energy into what you do best. But for those artists that are curious or want to do more of their own marketing online, getting themselves out there, the number one complaint that I often hear is I don’t you know people are timid or scared or shy, or they don’t know they’re they don’t think they’re good at making a video. What advice or insight, or because I feel like you’re the queen of pep talks. What advice?

Shana Levenson 31:28

Yeah, I would say, like, I would say, first of all, you don’t have to show yourself. Like, I know people are shy at like, having themselves being filmed, or whatever. You don’t have to be. You are the face of your art, but like, you want your art to be what’s seen, you know? So I would say, first, make sure what you’re posting. The quality of the image looks good because you it’s the first image people are say it’s someone who’s never seen your art before, and they see your Instagram and it’s a bad photo, and that’s like the first reaction they’re going to have towards what you’re posting, you want to make sure what you’re posting really represents the work. So first and foremost, post high quality stuff. Make sure that you edit it correctly, or even if it’s with the iPhone, make sure it’s just a good photo. Don’t just throw something on there. But I would say start off slowly, because I actually one of my mentees. She’s mentoring with me specifically because she hates posting, and she has a hard time posting. She she posts once a month, and I was like, You’re not going to get your work seen if you’re only posting once a month. So we worked on her posting once a week, and because she really just didn’t want to, she felt like it was bragging. But it’s not like, what you’re doing, this is your career. This is like, imagine somebody else is talking about your work. So write it as if you wanted to hear how somebody else was going to talk about your work, you know. Draw them in a little bit post close ups, you know. So plan it out if need be, and make sure you’re like, it could be simple. It could just be like, Hey, look at this little moment, you know, I’m spending. And because I don’t, I don’t do like, I’m not a I don’t like to spend a lot of time creating videos. I’m not like, I just, I’m gonna post something quickly, because I’ve literally worked, you know, eight hours, and I’m not gonna spend two of those hours filming something, you know, because that’s not the work is what means everything this is like for these videos, either when I was teaching online, I record. So I will do that. I will spend time. I’m actually after this painting. I’m going to be doing, working on this Tondo of one of a smoke and mask part of that series, yeah, and I’m going to be, yeah, I’m doing a Tondo of something similar, and then in different pose, and I’m going to film the entire painting process, because I am doing a podcast in July, and they want to have a because I’m an ambassador for artifacts, okay, which is the panel company, and so they want to see me working on their on their medium, so it would on their substrate, since I use them as my substrate, which is the substrate is like, what I paint on, which is aluminum panel, which I have, yeah, don’t be

Olya Konell 34:10

shy, yeah. And I’ve noticed you have just a combination. Sometimes it’s a photo, sometimes it’s you painting, and you’ve what I love that I want to point out. Guys, don’t be afraid to post the same painting in different angles multiple times, like, because some person might might see this, and they’re drawn into this particular image because of that angle, because the attention is being drawn to the hand, you know, or Yeah, so don’t be shy.

Shana Levenson 34:37

And I have a really great story that has to do with even posting just close up. So probably in 2017 I think I started painting lace in 2017 and maybe it was 2016 something around there I started painting lace, and I did a post of just the crop. The full figure. And it got such a reaction that it made me think I should do an entire series of just cropped in on the figure lace. And that’s how my entire series of my little 11 by 14 cropped references, or cropped paintings of lace dresses, came to fruition in 2018 I think I started doing it 2019 and I just started painting, I mean, and those were incredibly successful, because I was like, oh, people are having this reaction to this image. Even though the whole painting is larger, it shows the full figure. And, you know, my audience is telling me, Oh, my God, I love this cropped image. What a cool thing. And I thought, hey, you know what I’m gonna I’m gonna jump on that. I mean,

Shana Levenson 35:58

old references. I just started messing around with all the crops, and from that, I created an entire series of new work with different angles of lace, and that’s what I use for like my lace painting workshops, because we’re purely focusing on the skin underneath lace and the fabric on top. And so utilize your audience. So if you post something, a cropped image of a painting, and you’re like, Oh my God. People love this kind of cropped section or something. Maybe play with that push that you know you just never know what your audience is telling you that they want more of. So trust in that. Also, speaking of like selling online, make sure if someone reaches out to you about buying something, flag their Instagram message, so that way you can find them again and reach back out to them. Always reach out to people

Olya Konell 36:44

I love. Okay, I’d like to talk about that.

Shana Levenson 36:49

Yeah, my mom’s a best business woman. She always told me, you know, the only way you know, obviously, you don’t want to be annoying. But like, if someone collects something, they’ll always be a repeat collector that at least, most, a majority of the time. But make sure you’re reaching out, because people aren’t going to come to you. They do reach out and ask you about a painting. Hey, keep contacting them. Send in work that you have, because, you know, I would say probably 70% of the time when I keep sending work out to people on Instagram that have reached out to me, I sell a piece, which is a huge percentage.

Olya Konell 37:19

Yeah, and a lot of people don’t even respond to the comments about their paintings. Like, oh my gosh, I love this. I’m upset. Or somebody will like, I’ve seen so many artists posts, and there’s people in the comments, and it’s what an amazing opportunity is. Like, Hey, I just sent you a few more photos. Or, like, hey, check your DMS. Like, I you know so.

Shana Levenson 37:41

Or when you post, let them know, let people know it’s available. Yes, you know, say, hey, this piece is available. Message for inquiries. You know what I mean? I also offer for me, I also for payment plans for people, which makes it more doable if they want to collect a piece that’s a little bit out of their price range, but they really want it, you know,

Olya Konell 38:05

do you have an in?

Shana Levenson 38:06

I don’t. I just haven’t been mommy, okay, yeah, I’m I send them a contract, like we have a contract all that kind of stuff. But they just have them Venmo me, then, that way I have do the contract, and then I have like, an invoice that I send. So I always have an invoice you want to make sure you have, like, proof that you sold, sold the work to them, so that way you have that for, you know, tax reasons, which is

Olya Konell 38:26

enough fun stuff. And then do you just sorry, this is fascinating because I was curious. I’m curious how people have done this, because people have asked about payment plans. Do you ship the painting after they’ve paid off the after? Yeah, okay,

Shana Levenson 38:39

yeah, depending on the paintings, depending on where they’re located, and depending on the size of the painting. Like, if it’s a small painting, I’ll take care of shipping and packaging for larger pieces. And if they’re further away, they pay for shipping and packaging

Olya Konell 38:53

and packaging, and then you can quote it based on where they’re at. And you know, maybe they have a preferred ship, or they want to use, or whatever. So that’s good

Shana Levenson 39:01

to know, but I also have a really good shipper, so I’ll have them just contact my shipper so they can. I’m not like, I knock the middle man out and I’m like, okay, here you, they’ll contact you and they’ll tell you, like, that way they can choose how they want it to be shipped.

Olya Konell 39:14

Yeah, absolutely. But that’s such a great idea. So if you’re an artist and you’re afraid to raise your prices, but maybe you know your prices are already in a good place, but you’re like, I need to raise them because it’s time and you’re afraid of losing potential sales. Have that option of available now, do you tell people, is that something you have on your website? Or do you do that in the interactions you have? No, I tell them in interactions, yeah, interactions, okay, yeah. I love it

Shana Levenson 39:40

immediately too, because I was, yeah, I’ll say, to say, hey, you know, thanks for note. I just say, Hey, thanks for reaching out. This is the cost. I also take payment plans, if that, if that makes it easier, so I immediately put it up front, like that’s offensive. Maybe they can pay it fully, you know, note. But if.

Olya Konell 40:00

Them. So sorry, we’re we’re having a little bit of static, not static, but like occasional lag for the first time. So bear with us. So I just want to make sure that I heard that correctly. So right off the bat, you tell them that it is available. Here’s the price. And by the way, I do have like, you know, and I artists, if you are uncomfortable with having those financial conversations. So many people are and so many successful artists all say the same thing. You go straight to closing the sale. Hey, can I wrap that up for you? Or here’s the price. You know, these are my payment options, including payment plans. I think if artists practice in front of a mirror, maybe they’ll be better at having that conversation. At least you get to type

Shana Levenson 40:41

it up. You’re not saying it up. You’re not saying

Olya Konell 40:42

it to them in person. That’s true. Yeah, at least you can type it which makes it so much easier when it so one of the things you talked about is you, you guys do teach people how to properly photograph things, because I think taking pictures of things for an artist is so important in 2026 even if you’re not taking pictures to paint your own references, but to be able to to share pictures in your newsletter on your social media accounts. Do you guys have any workshops where recorded ones, where you go into that, or are you planning on doing that again, where you can kind of we did

Shana Levenson 41:17

during covid on my website, on the Big Cartel website, I have a how to take photo reference. So we, we go through, we send a PDF that we put together of, yeah, all the different types of cameras, all the different types of lighting, and how to Yep, and how to take good photo reference for artists.

Olya Konell 41:37

And do you sell a recording of this at all? Yes, you do, yeah, okay, that’s actually really good. So it’s $75 for and

Shana Levenson 41:44

you get to keep the video, and you get a PDF of

Olya Konell 41:49

everything we spoke about, everything so helpful, because I

Shana Levenson 41:52

feel Scott Jones. Scott Jones is on here. I just saw there’s a comment I agree with Shannon galleries and advocating for yourself. My ears perked up on Seattle. I will be watching. She’s an amazing entrepreneur. Oh, thanks, Scott. I know Scott. He’s a sweetheart. I just saw him at portrait society.

Olya Konell 42:09

That’s awesome. Yeah, no, I Yeah. I’ll have to keep it on that, because I’m only three hours away from Seattle, Washington area. So I know, yeah. So I have

Shana Levenson 42:19

a solo show, actually, for August 2027 Okay, at the gallery, it’s called Lost in composition, and it’s right on the waterfront. So yeah, and I just sent my newest smoke piece, that big smoke one. I just sent that

Olya Konell 42:35

out there. So, oh, so they have that

Shana Levenson 42:37

I’m excited to be in the new space.

Olya Konell 42:38

Yeah, I’ll have to send you the reel I made. I found a piece of music that has a breath sound in it, and I overlay, yeah, oh, cool with that painting and like, different I was like, oh, anyway, so we didn’t get a chance to use it, but I can’t wait to hear it. I’m gonna send it to you. Because I was like, Oh, this speaks to me. Somebody asks in the Q and A, so if you have questions, throw them in the Q A, what shipper do you use? And you said you have a shipper. So how does that work?

Shana Levenson 43:07

So there’s a company here called Peli, and they package and ship out artwork. Okay, so I will, if I don’t have boxes here, I’ll take it, and then if the like, so sometimes like, he’ll send through UPS or FedEx. So he’s just a company that sends, you know, via either. But if, like, somebody wants it to be much cheaper, I’ll do USPS, so I’ll have him package it so it’s at least packaged well, and then send it USPS. But what I love about them also is, like I just sent, in March, I sent eight paintings to Seattle, and so they built something to make it a little bit more like they they figured out a way, you know what I mean, to make it a little bit more affordable to send all those pieces because they varied in size. Wow. So it’s good to have, yeah, and there’s also, like, they also have companies that you can hire to drive paintings. So, like, when I do my solo show, I’ll probably hire a person to pick up and drive the paintings, which I think is probably way cheaper than shipping it. Yeah, so different couriers that can take your work, but yeah, you have to really think about that. Like when you’re applying to, like a juried exhibition, and say Best of Show is $400 that you win $400 for Best of Show, and it costs you $250 to ship your artwork out there. And best getting Best of Show, obviously, the odds are, are. You never know, because, yeah, but you really have to consider how much it costs to ship your work. But also people get to see your work too. So there’s, like, two sides to it, so you have to think of the cost of shipping it, and just to make sure that you’re not, like, pricing yourself out, you’re not losing more money, yeah, spending more than you’re making.

Olya Konell 44:58

Yeah, and also. Not only do you get the benefit, but if you gain any kind of certification, even if you don’t get Best of Show, but if there’s anything else that you could possibly get, you get to put that on your, you know, CV, yeah. It’s yeah. It’s almost like, it’s like a pin, you know how in the military, in the army, they have, like, the it is, yeah, artists, that is almost the equivalent

Shana Levenson 45:19

of the, I remember my first show, I entered winning Best of Show, and it was like, it was a game changer for me, because I was like, oh, people really like when I’m painting it as a 2014 I sent a huge piece to this little place in Colorado, and not only did I win Best of Show, but then I found these collectors that ended up buying it. So this is, you know, 2014 it was a 60 by 40 inch painting. I sold it for $3,000 okay, now, a 60 by 40 inch painting is about $35,000 so Wow, just that trajectory, you know, it’s been 12 years, yeah. But completely, you know, you you learn, you better keep pushing yourself. So you’ll, it takes a little bit, you know, but

Olya Konell 46:11

you’ll get there, yeah. And then, you know, for artists that can get to where you are now, the beautiful thing is, all those years of hustling, barely making any money, like, it’s a hard grind. Guy, like, we all know that it’s hard, it’s a hustle. You get excited about whatever you could, you know, like, oh my gosh, I sold this probably under, undersold it cost wise, but someday it will start kind of balancing those lows out, you know, little by little. So like, all those cheap art sales, this is why artists are able to charge more. It’s because the amount of time, the amount of years that we spend charging less, you know, eventually it kind of comes back. So when people are painting for a painting, they’re not just painting for that one painting, they they’re painting for the years that the artist has invested. So don’t be afraid to adjust your prices if

Shana Levenson 46:58

you need to, absolutely, but you also want to make sure you’re not just like relying, yeah, only because that’s an impossible life to the mean very few artists, which there are artists that do so that do very well. But there’s also teaching print sales. You have to figure out other avenues of making an income, just so that way, you know it. It all comes together. But yeah,

Olya Konell 47:23

and print sales allow people to get work at a much more affordable cost

Shana Levenson 47:29

point, which, yes, and I have prints as well, and I just came out with a new print release on Monday, and it’s one of my the first smoke and gas mask piece. So if you go to prints,

Olya Konell 47:41

yeah, print, oh, yeah, oh, there it is. Yep, that’s the one, yeah. I love that painting. I I mean, are really great for people, yeah? Such a great idea. So it, you know, and do you use a print service, or do you go get your prints made and then you’re able to sign them? And you I can see that says, Yeah, I have a print,

Shana Levenson 47:59

and I have a print place here called a good sign, and I send them the image. They print it on great paper, and I hand sign a number, because I only do limited edition prints. And I actually, and this is, this is a weird work of mine. Not all artists do this. I only sell prints of paintings that have sold. I never make prints of pieces that haven’t that sold. So that way it makes it valuable. Yeah, yeah. But another thing I want to say about to artists is that so if any of you are teachers or do anything where you’re teaching, people, think of the materials that you’re using and reach out to those companies and see if maybe they will sponsor you or send you free material. So that way they I think the one reason that I’m able to get, I get a lot of my paint for free and my brushes for free is because I teach, and it’s because I get students to buy those products. So that’s something that’s really important, is to make sure that you’re you’re figuring out the business side of it with the materials you’re using, and if you do teach, or if you’re building up a big social media presence, trying to figure out how to make it more accessible, to get companies to send you some free material.

Olya Konell 49:15

Yeah, and most companies, I don’t know, I like to look as as as of late, because I’m I’ve noticed that if you go to their websites, they’ll have a little thing, either at the very bottom with those tiny little links, or up in their menu, it’ll say, become an affiliate. So if you see that, click that thing, fill out that form and see if you’re eligible, or click the Contact Us button, because that would be the easiest way to get a hold of somebody within their it never hurts to ask.

Shana Levenson 49:44

Never. The worst they can do is say no, the worst that will happen, exactly.

Olya Konell 49:50

But that’s that’s the for businesses. In case you guys didn’t, didn’t notice, or didn’t know, the number one way that businesses can market their product. In 2026 isn’t by making commercials. It literally is working with existing people that are using their products. So you know, most of the time, they are excited that somebody is reaching out to them. And if you’re the right fit and you have the right audience, and especially if you’re teaching, that’s like a slam dunk. So I love that advice. There’s so and because I don’t want to take you over your time, but I also want to get this last question, and then if anybody else has any quick Q and A’s, drop them into the chat or into the Q A box, last words of advice, like, if there was only one thing that someone could take away from this conversation, what would you want them to leave with,

Shana Levenson 50:45

gosh, don’t I guess, any mistakes you make in within your paintings, turn those into lessons, as opposed to feeling down about them. So if you feel like you’re not progressing in a painting, use that as a lesson to keep pushing yourself, you know. So say like you feel like, Oh, I’m so bad at painting arms or hands. Don’t shy away from them. Use that to motivate yourself to keep getting better at it until it becomes a strength. And then, you know, keep doing that to make another thing that you feel like you’re not good at, keep pushing yourself.

Olya Konell 51:21

So that would be that’s so good, and that’s so true for everything. So if you’re like, Oh, I suck at posting a social media, do it till you feel till you’re better? Because nobody just born good at

Shana Levenson 51:33

a thing. Well, I have another one also, yeah, I do have another one. Another one is, Who cares how the size of your studio space. If you have a spot on the kitchen table, you have a place to create art. The size of the studio does not matter. If you don’t have your own personal studio space, who cares? You know, my husband’s studio is twice the size of mine. Honestly, I don’t care, because as long as I have my own little space. You know, when I first got divorced, I used to work in this, like, small little area in my kitchen in my condo that I had at the time. And so you don’t need to have a massive space to create artwork. You can have anything like you have a little corner. You could have a table the kitchen just create work. And whether you have three hours or 20 minutes, do something creative every

Olya Konell 52:20

single day. Oh, that’s such good. That’s a good reminder for me. I needed that, because I’m always like, Oh, I don’t have that much time today. But do I have 20 minutes? Yes, I do have 20 minutes. And you never

Shana Levenson 52:30

know, you might have, like, added this fantastic color, like, Oh, my God, I just turned the corner on this piece that I’m struggling with in just 20 minutes, or you’ll be hit with,

Olya Konell 52:39

like, a lightning bolt of inspiration for something that does, you know, require more time, but something bigger. I Scott Jones says, I know artists who won’t paint hands or feet. Take her advice. Take shana’s Hand workshop and force yourself to tackle what you find challenging. Create new things all the time. I love that. Thank you, Scott for sharing. Do you I and because I know I mentioned in the beginning, I would love to see what you’re working on. Are you able to just, oh yeah, is it Yes?

Shana Levenson 53:07

Let me, let me turn this. You can see if there’s any glare, just because of the window, because my massive window. So this is my cat area. Hold on, Cat Cafe. Oh, there. There you go. There you go cafe. And then on my wall is my Hughes easel. I love this, this thing, so for a second,

Olya Konell 53:27

because there’s like, a little bit of a There we go. There we go. The camera, like got stuck, and

Shana Levenson 53:32

goes back and forth. It goes up and up and down. So I can’t move it because I’m holding my computer, but I’m working on a massive mylar balloon painting that says, fuck yeah, yeah.

Olya Konell 53:44

I love that.

Shana Levenson 53:44

It’s like, anyway, yeah, no, those are, like, for the glare. It’s like, not, okay, yeah. And then, so, yeah, I’m finishing up the you today, and then working on a couple of the flowers. But you can see, like, the flowers trying to get my camera. The flowers are really big. And there’s my references on the wall. You can see I also have artwork of people that I love. So I have an alley Cavanaugh painting I bought a portrait a few years ago. And then Michelle Dunaway. And then this is a quote I love to say, you can’t see it. It says, I will sell a painting today. I always put it out in the universe. It’ll happen. It’s true, yeah. And then this right here, is my magnet wall. Oh, fun. The magnet wall paintings have magnets like attached to the back, so they could just have them up there drawing,

Olya Konell 54:32

I What? Wow, that’s, yeah, rad. That is so clever. Okay, curious how you did that. So the wall is metal, or the wall is also a magnet,

Shana Levenson 54:42

or the magnet, no, so we put a magnet board, like, it’s like a thin, like metal, and, yeah, my art, the guy that, like built our studios, he like glued them to the wall, basically. And. Then on the back of my paintings, I have like, just,

Olya Konell 55:05

wow, that’s

Shana Levenson 55:06

so cool. So that way they can just go up there, yeah, that’s great. And then down here is a painting I just finished with my friend Doriel. Oh, yeah, and that’s actually a workshop I’ll be teaching too in 2027 she and I are teaching a workshop together in January, for those that have taken a workshop with me and Doriel, my friend Doriel can he’s an incredible figurative artist, also hers is, like, really surrealistic and fun and bright. So we love teaching together. We haven’t taught together in a year. I don’t have that on my site yet. I gotta get that on my site soon.

Olya Konell 55:40

Yeah. So I’ve just shared shayna’s workshop link again, but also, right before that, I shared just in general, and we will include all of this when we send the recording out. I love that little tour. Honestly. That was like one of

Shana Levenson 55:55

my this thing right here is the best thing too, because it has all of my paints. If you guys, if I opened it up, you’d be so jealous of all the paints. I mean, we have the best paint collection.

Olya Konell 56:06

You should do a tour. I have you ever done, like, on on social, like, Hey guys, I give you a tour of my amazing paint collection, because I will watch I haven’t in

Shana Levenson 56:15

a while. I did it a long time ago. Yeah, I need to. I need to definitely go through all the paints.

Olya Konell 56:20

Yeah, yeah, because that would be so fun. It’s like, looking at somebody’s makeup collection, or like, going into my sister’s closet, or, yeah, that same it’s that same feeling, yeah, yeah. What do you got there? I love that. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for bringing us in in such an intimate and recovery says, Great info today. Yeah, i i For anybody that I know there’s gonna be, people are like, Oh my gosh, we missed it. The recording will be out. I’m so excited. We’ll have the transcript, we’ll have all the links, and what a beautiful insight into, like, your creative mind a little bit, and your energy and your space. Like, what an honor. So thank you,

Shana Levenson 57:01

yeah, of course, thanks for having

Olya Konell 57:03

me appreciate it and everybody else. Have a wonderful and creative rest of your day. Thank you all for attending.

Shana Levenson 57:09

Thanks for joining, guys.

Olya Konell 57:11

Thank you so much. Bye, bye.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Ellen Howard, a Boise-based landscape painter, instructor, art advocate, and writer who works primarily in oils and gouache, known for her tranquil depictions of nature, water, and luminous skies. In this conversation, Ellen shares how she transitioned from a demanding venture capital career into full-time art, guided by lifelong creative influences—especially her grandfather’s travel illustrations and drawings. She explains how an invitation to an oil painting class reignited her passion, leading to years of focused study, plein air practice, and a deep commitment to painting nature’s peaceful moments, from marshlands and seascapes to sunsets and Idaho’s mountains. Ellen also describes how surgery led her to experiment with gouache, a medium whose quick-drying vibrancy and spontaneity now balances and informs her slower, layered oil work. Drawing on her business background, she emphasizes time management, relationship-building, consistent marketing, particularly newsletter marketing, and “showing up and saying yes” as crucial to building opportunities and gallery representation. She encourages artists to develop a body of work they truly love, understand where it fits in the market, be patient with career growth, and actively create their own opportunities rather than waiting to be discovered. Finally, Ellen tells us about her upcoming gouache workshop in Sun Valley, her France Alps workshop, and her participation in major exhibitions like the California Gold Medal Show and the Brinton Museum invitational.

Ellen’s FASO site:
ellenhowardart.com/

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facebook.com/ellen.howard.5

instagram.com/ellenhowardart/

Sign up for Ellen’s Newsletter!
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Transcript:

Ellen Howard: 0:00

Just show up and say, Yes, you need to be willing to give up yourself to to help. It’s not always about showing up and seeing like, Oh, can I be in this gallery, or, you know, can I be in this show? But, you know, I’m happy to help with XYZ. So I think getting involved that way you learn more about the business, you learn things about yourself, like, what where am I? Where are my skills on the business side, what am I good at? What am I not so good at? What? Where do I need help on that side, but I think the willingness to help others is a big business plus.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:40

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world. In order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Ellen Howard, a Boise based landscape painter, instructor, art advocate and writer who works primarily in oils and gouache, known for her tranquil depictions of nature, water and luminous skies. In this conversation, Ellen shares how she transitioned from a demanding venture capital career into full time art guided by lifelong creative influences, especially her grandfather’s travel illustrations and drawings. She explains how an invitation to an oil painting class reignited her passion, leading to years of focused study plein air practice and a deep commitment to painting nature’s peaceful moments, from marshlands and seascapes to sunsets and Idaho’s mountains. Ellen also describes how surgery led her to experiment with gouache, a medium whose quick drawing, vibrancy and spontaneity now balances and informs her slower, layered oil work, drawing on her business background, she emphasizes time management, relationship building, consistent marketing, particularly newsletter marketing and showing up and saying yes as crucial to building opportunities and gallery representation, she encourages artists to develop a body of work they truly love, understand where it fits in the market, be patient with career growth and actively create their own opportunities, rather than waiting to be discovered. Finally, Ellen tells us about her upcoming gouache workshop in Sun Valley, her France Alps workshop, and her participation in major exhibitions like the California gold medal show and the Brinton museum Invitational. Welcome Ellen to the FASO podcast. How are you today? I’m doing well.

Ellen Howard: 2:35

Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I really appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Of course, I’m really happy to have you, because I think your work has such a unique voice to it. I really, really love your use of color and how you really try to capture specifically those sunsets which are so so so unique. And I feel like you, you really do a great job at basically grabbing the portrait of every sunset, which I think is so wonderful to look at, yeah,

Ellen Howard: 3:04

it’s one of my favorite themes to create,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:09

yeah, yeah. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Ellen Howard: 3:17

Sure, well, I grew up, actually in New England, and and then moved to the Bay Area to raise my family. And now I am located in Boise, Idaho, where the mountains are, and I’m a landscape painter, working primarily in oils and gouache, and I love both of those mediums. Gives me a lot of versatility. And I am also a big art advocate and an instructor for classes and workshops, and I also do a lot of art writing, so a lot of different hats.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:48

Yes, yeah, you are definitely a business lady as much as you’re an artist, which I really love, because it is so hard, it is so hard to have both parts, or both hats, so to speak. Since normally a lot of people go about pursuing this career, they start from the art side and then develop the business side. But you had the unique background of starting in the business side and then going into the art side, which is really awesome.

Ellen Howard: 4:17

Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, on both sides, which has been nice,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:25

yes, and we’ll definitely dive more into that. But first I wanted to ask you, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Ellen Howard: 4:34

Well, I think I’ve always had an artist’s heart. I grew up in a creative family. My mother kind of dabbled in watercolor. My father was a musician, but it was really my grandfather who inspired me. He was in the airlines in the 1930s and 40s, but he was an illustrator. He would do cartoons. He was offered a job at Walt Disney, actually, which he turned down to be in the airlines, but he would come home. Home with all these exotic tales of his travels in Europe and Asia and the Middle East, and he would show me all of his drawings of the people in their traditional garb. So it just spurred a lot of imagination for me. So it wasn’t really until later in life that I got to pursue art. My parents got divorced at a really early age, and I was very practical, and I wanted to make sure that I could support myself, so I ended up going into business first, but I did minor in art history in college, and then, as my kids were growing up, I was involved in their elementary school, and I ran their art in Action Program for seven years, and then I also worked part time in a nearby college in their exhibitions area. So I helped with putting on their shows and talking to donors and sponsors and things like that. So I was always kind of involved in it, but not able to do it until later in life.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:07

Yeah, and when was that moment where you finally picked the brush back up?

Ellen Howard: 6:12

Well, it was funny. I actually was invited to go to an art class with a friend, an oil painting class, and she’s like, do you want to try this with me? And I’m like, Okay, sure. And it was really as soon as I picked the brush up and started painting, I was off, like, I just knew it was what I wanted to do. And I just started taking more lessons. I started at a community college and went to workshops and found teachers in my area that were experts in their field and took instruction from them. I spent a couple years doing drawing classes with charcoal, worked in pastel, and then got introduced to plein air painting out in the field, which I totally loved. So it just, it just kept expanding, like the more people I would meet, they would say, oh, try this, or go to this class and and now it’s just turned into an incredible journey and wonderful career for me. So I feel very grateful I didn’t expect this when I when I started. So I’m very grateful for the opportunities,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:18

yeah, and I find that that’s one of the beautiful things about life as we continue living it, is that it continues to surprise us. Yeah, like the more we follow those little things that interest us, the more it opens these doors we could have never even imagined. And I think that’s it’s, it’s an interesting like perspective to have too, especially when, when you’re young, like to realize this. Because I think we all, and I’m sure you may have experienced this too, have kind of decided I want to go from point A to point B, not realizing that life might throw you at point C, and it’s actually much better than point B,

Ellen Howard: 8:01

yeah, yeah. I’d always thought like, oh, I wished I had started art sooner, but I feel like my background has been helpful too in my career as an artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:14

Yes, yes, for sure, and we will dive into that. But first I wanted to ask you, because you do have both oil paintings and gouache paintings. And I wanted to ask when you first started, did you first start with oils and then fell into gouache? Or when did that romance with those two materials happen for you?

Ellen Howard: 8:35

Well, I did start with oils because I was planning on painting with oils and in the studio, and actually, what got me into gouache about five years ago is I had some surgery and I wasn’t able to lift my arm high, you know, and I usually stand when I when I paint. And so I was like, What can I do? And wash is just starting to have a resurgence. I’m like, Oh, I’ll try this medium, and I just fell in love with it. It’s, to me, it’s, it’s almost like oils. Obviously it’s water soluble, but the the vibrancy of the medium is really fun, and it kind of informs one informs the other, like I take more time with my oils and their primary for my galleries or competitions and oils can take, you know, on plein air, you can finish a piece in a day, but usually for a studio piece, it can take a couple days to a week or two weeks to finish. And sometimes I just need to switch and do something that’s quick and spontaneous. So the energy behind my gouache works and trying to figure out compositions, and then usually I can do something within two or three hours. So it’s kind of a nice feeling to finish a project. So that balance is really nice. So I really have enjoyed using both mediums, and people have been really responding to my gouache work too, which has been great.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:59

Yeah. Yeah, that must be really exciting too, because I bet there’s some sort of also, like, you know, when you go back and forth between the mediums, there must also be a little bit of like, oh, this, this is kind of the cool technique. I can pull this into oil painting, and then, oh, this is, this is something I like to do with oil paints, and I should try this on the gouache to see how it reacts, you know,

Ellen Howard: 10:20

yeah, there’s you can definitely layer with both mediums. The oil, you definitely have more texture and the juiciness of the oils. The gouache is more matte, but you can layer and get some really good marbling effects. It’s just a great medium to experiment in a smaller format, usually gouache is done a little bit smaller than your oils too.

Laura Arango Baier: 10:45

Yeah, that makes sense, since it dries so fast and you can’t really Chase everything all at once, yeah,

Ellen Howard: 10:53

but it’s fun doing it pioneer,

Laura Arango Baier: 10:55

yeah, oh yeah, I bet I just, I’m sorry, I just wanted to ask if you start your gouache on a white background instead.

Ellen Howard: 11:03

Yeah, I’ve experimented a couple different ways. I have toned it like with the yellow ochre, and I am experiment like with my oils. A lot of times I’ll do transparencies before I start the finished product, but I’ve found that I kind of like working on just the white background with the gouache, but I am still experimenting with a lot of different ways to use it.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:27

Yeah, yeah. I was just curious, because I feel like, since gouache is so matte, and it does lose a little bit of that vibrancy once it dries, I would be worried that maybe, like, starting on a darker tone background, kind of like, you know, with oil paints, it would lose also even more of that brightness.

Ellen Howard: 11:47

Yeah, I do it like a very light yellow ochre, yeah. But I agree, it depends on how you layer it and how thick you use the paint. I think one of the way I like to use gouache is in a thicker format. A lot of people use it thinner and so more leaning on watercolor sometimes than on the thickness of gouache. But I think that’s the beauty of the of the medium is when it’s when it’s layered on a thick, thicker basis.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that also makes me curious, can you tell us a little bit more about also your subject matter? So what is it about nature that really draws you in? And then can you tell us a little bit about your process when it comes to painting your work?

Ellen Howard: 12:39

Oh sure. So yeah, I love being out in nature. I’m a big Walker. I hike all the time, and so it just to me, nature is very peaceful, and it gets me to slow down. And so I think, you know, everything’s a lot about deadlines and the rush around, and especially plein air painting. Like I know the light changes a lot, but soon as I set up, there’s just a calm that comes over me, and then I’m like, Okay, I’m set to paint. This is my time. And, yeah, I just think it brings me a lot of peace. And I think my collectors, that’s one thing that has been continually I’ve got a compliment on, is that my paintings look like they’re very tranquil and peaceful. And then when they look at them, they feel, you know, a sense of calm. So that’s that’s been great. And so as far as plein air painting, you know, I do walk around quite a bit to try to find a scene that really excites me or I have an emotional connection with and then I set up. I usually do a small sketch, and then sometimes I do a color wash on my plein air, or sometimes I go right into to mixing the paint. And then, as far as my studio work, it does take me a little bit longer. I’ll do three or four drawings on a subject matter, and then sometimes I’ll do a value study, and then go into the final project. But I’m usually drawn to subject matters that are around water. It’s been I’ve lived on the coast for a long time, so the ocean has been a big, big thing for me. Marshlands in the Bay Area. I love that feeling of the birds coming in, the peaceful, peacefulness of that area. And then sunsets too. I actually started painting sunsets during covid. So I had been painting a lot of seascapes, and covid was such a dark and scary time, and I wanted to switch into a warmer palette. You know? What was it that was more joyful, I guess, a warmer, yeah, warmer palette. And so I started studying sunsets and going out and photographing them and and doing them on location. And it’s just become something that I’ve been really drawn to and that. And then, actually, now in in Boise, in Idaho, I’m. Very drawn to the mountains, so that has been a big surprise for me, how much I enjoy painting the mountains. So it’s a different feeling. You know, I’ve been drawn to the transitory elements in nature, kind of the fleeting moments of light, either early morning or that late afternoon sunset, but the grandeur of the mountains and the permanence of that, and then also just the cloud formations. Like I didn’t understand what Big Sky really meant until I got out here, and there’s just more sky. There’s more changes in the sky out here, and so that’s been a real excitement for me. So I’ve been gearing my work a little bit more towards that lately.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:48

Yeah, yeah. And I love that, because that also highlights, you know, how where we are can really affect what we notice and what we choose to paint. You know, like it is wonderful, of course, to paint lakes and water and, you know, these sunsets. But also it is nice to be able to explore, like, oh, this new thing that I observe and I love, which is mountains and how it’s also really cool, the balance between like, the fleeting impermanence of like clouds and sunset, and then also the permanence of mountains. They’ve been there longer than we have been alive, and will continue to exist beyond us, which also brings a sense of peace, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s very poetic, yeah, yeah. And then I guess also, I wanted to know you also wrote a very interesting quote in your biography, in your website, which is painting as a way of being. Do you mind elaborating on that a little bit?

Ellen Howard: 17:04

It’s just a part of me now, like I look back at before my life, when I wasn’t painting, and now, how a huge change that, you know, I was raising my children and I was in venture capital early on, and so I had a great career in business, but the whole art scene has really taken over my whole life. I would say that every day I’m doing something with art. It’s either I’m painting or I’m writing something, or meeting with an artist or going to an art exhibit. It’s the way I show up in the world, creatively, who I am. So I don’t think I could ever not have art in my life at this point. So yeah, it’s, it means a lot to me.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:57

Yeah, yeah. I love that, because it, it must be a huge contrast as well. It sounds like, you know, that your capital and business sounds like a very chaotic, driven, very, you know, not peaceful type of environment, compared to, you know, painting in a studio where you are your own company for many, many hours.

Ellen Howard: 18:20

Yeah. But also too, like, it was very busy, it was a demanding job, but part of my job was also building relationships between the clients and the portfolio managers, and I think that has helped me in the art world too, because I’ve been a big art advocate trying to build programs for artists. And currently I’m the vice president of the California art club, and I was co chair of the San Francisco chapter for many years. So I really enjoyed, you know, putting together paint outs or critiques or demos, and just trying to bring people together in the art world. It’s been a passion of mine also,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:07

yeah, no, and I think that’s great, because there’s, I think a lot of people have the misconception that artists are introverted, and therefore we’re we don’t go out, we don’t talk to people without realizing that actually this career, as I’ve seen it, is heavily dependent on networking and making connections and going out there and meeting people. So I think that’s an awesome thing to you know, go from business into painting and then deciding, oh, this is something that I think is important to share with others and to help others realize that this is something that can build community. This is something that will bring opportunities to others, instead of, you know, we’re all just hiding in our studio,

Ellen Howard: 19:55

and I think that’s hard as it was hard for me as an artist, I should say that, you know, I went. From going to the office every day to being alone in the studio doing your work, and obviously you have to do that work, but it’s great to be with other artists, because there’s some kind of energy when you get around other artists, like, oh, did you hear about this? Or, you know, or you learn a new technique, or find out something different, and, yeah, just talk about historical works, you know, as on a trip, and we were talking about an artist and all his compositional designs. And, you know, just diving into that kind of stuff really is helpful, you know. And you don’t get that by sitting in an office or, I mean, in your studio, you know, you get that, you know, being around people at a paint out and just casually talking to somebody, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 20:49

definitely yes, yeah. And that actually brings me to a question, which is, when did you become a full time artist? What was that transition like for you.

Ellen Howard: 21:00

I think it was probably around 2012 2014 I started devoting more and more time to being an artist. You’ll laugh. I think in the beginning, I used to set up my easel in my little galley kitchen and then try to cook at the same time I was painting, you know, that kind of stuff. So I got my own studios. That was a big step to have an outside studio, and then to be able to devote more of my time to pursuing my my art, my art background, so in creating the work so and I just, I kept taking more and more classes and meeting more people and and then other doors started opening too. I got into some shows, and I started locally, and then started to get into some of the national shows too.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:54

Yeah, yeah. So you must have spent, like, a good amount of time, you know, building your portfolio and then also networking. And did you, you know, build, maybe, like a series of paintings and then, you know, apply with those two shows? Or did you talk to galleries? How did that work for you?

Ellen Howard: 22:12

I think I started really with local shows, getting into local shows, and seeing what was accepted, and then getting into some of the national shows, and then also going to galleries that I was interested in, going to their open studios or their and just seeing how that worked and who was represented. You know, what their work looked like. You know, would my work fit into that? But it took a it was a long process. It wasn’t something that you just walk in the door and you’re accepted into a gallery so but yeah, after many years, I did actually approach a gallery in Carmel, and I brought him 10 of my pieces and and he said, Okay, I’ll try you out on these five if you sell, you know, we’ll, we’ll give you a chance in the gallery. So, and I sold in the first week three of my paintings. So that was, I was super grateful. It was a great relationship. And, yeah, so that was kind of the start of of getting myself into some galleries,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:24

that’s awesome. So since you do have your background in business and having a more business minded sort of approach to your art, how has your background been the most helpful for your career as an artist? What has been like something that has been really, really helpful for you.

Ellen Howard: 23:42

I think I have strong time management skills. I remember in the beginning, I would take my daytime or out and I would just go, like a nine to one is painting time like, you know, no phone calls, no you know, appointments or whatever. So I was able to manage my time. I think my organized organizational skills have been good. I can put things together. So I’ve put together independent exhibitions, which have been super fun in the Bay Area, got a bunch of artists and got the venue and put together shows, so that it’s helped. I think my ability just to talk to people. You know, in my business background, I had to make a lot of phone calls or go to meetings, and just my ability to present, you know, I think that’s helped quite a bit. And then the marketing, I think just being able to market yourself, I think, is really key too,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:39

yeah, yeah. And that’s actually segues really well into my next question, which is, in your experience, what has been the best marketing or business tactic that you’ve used that has either led to more sales or more opportunities

Ellen Howard: 24:54

for you? Well, I think the funniest thing is, I didn’t expect it, but I started. Newsletter eight years ago, and I started it actually, really for myself. I was, it was an accountability newsletter. So every month I was like, What did I accomplish? What did I get into? Any shows, you know, what paintings that I accomplish? What am I learning? What can I pass on? So, like, the fifth of, the 15th of every month. If I didn’t have, you know, an idea of what I’ve done, I would panic. I’m like, Okay, I’ve got to produce this newsletter at the end of the month. What am I going to say? And so that is just and I’ve done it every month. The last eight, eight years, I have not missed a month, and I think it’s just grown. And I’ve got a nice following on my newsletter. I really enjoy writing it, and it’s, it’s more I do, obviously show my work and what’s coming up for me professionally, but I always come up with a theme, like, what is going on in the world that could help other people, you know, or what, what’s going on. It’s important. Like in February, I took a spin on the Olympics with the figure skaters. And one woman won, Elise, Lou, and another person, Amber, she, you know, she was designated to win, but she had a mistake. And then the male, the quad King, missed some of his jumps. So my the title of the of the newsletter is, what does success look like? So, and I referred it back to a painter, you know, does success look like something that you know you’re getting into every single show, or are you continually putting in work, and all of a sudden you miss one thing, or, you know, so it’s, what does that look for you? You know, all the years of work behind something that people don’t see. So that was an interesting topic. And then this, this month, I just sent out, what, are you tending what matters to what you’re tending to. You know, where are you giving your attention? And with spring coming up in the gardens and things blooming like, how are you tending so, how you tending to your creative life? You know what’s important. You know, as an you know, is there a rush to see your finish painting, or is it you’re tending your garden by tilling your soil, you know the bud is just coming up, and then at time it’ll bloom. So in your creative life, having the patience to see something to fruition, not to always be in a rush to have it finished, which is something I struggle with too. You know, I can get impatient.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:45

So at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art, marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile, friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, yeah. And I love that because that the impatience can also really apply to the career itself, right? Like, Oh, I really want to get into all of these shows, or I really just want to start selling a ton of my work. And it’s it would be nice, but at the same time, like it really does build up slowly, and it takes a lot of patience to allow these opportunities to also happen. Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to ask you to first, what does success look like for you? I.

Ellen Howard: 30:00

Yeah, that’s a hard question. I guess when I finished a painting that has been different for me, that I’ve tried a new technique and I felt that it came out successful. Sometimes it is hard when you feel very strongly about a work and you submit it to a show and it doesn’t get accepted. So that’s difficult. But I think as long as you keep learning and your work keeps improving, so I can look back to last year and say, oh, okay, I’ve improved in that area, there’s still more to go. So that’s what success. As long as I’m enjoying the process and I’m excited about what I’m doing, and I’m continuing and not giving up that successful.

Laura Arango Baier: 30:45

Yeah, that’s awesome, and that’s a great point. I feel like first i’ll probably link that newsletter in our show notes, so that people can go read it and also sign up for your newsletter. And I think also, because it’s such a I think it’s a really important topic, because it’s very natural for that perspective of success to change as time goes on and as your career develops. Like how you said, at first it might be, oh, getting into this show or trying to get into this one Gallery, and then maybe you realize, oh, you know what, this gallery, and I don’t really work. So now I got to change my success vision to something else. And I think that also ties a little bit into what we mentioned at the beginning, which is that life will sometimes, instead of taking you from point A to point B, it’ll take you to point C, and it’s much, much more fun and much more interesting, and just opens way more doors than you would think, yeah.

Ellen Howard: 31:44

And to think broader than just shows like, there’s a lot of path to art. And I think people get stuck into, oh, I have to go down this one street when there’s 10 streets you can go down to and and also, I think, you know, you have to be patient as far as far as what? Going back to the newsletter, you know, it took a while to build my email list, and I find with art, it’s a very emotional purchase. The collectors want to get to know you as an artist. So it’s an easy way, when you start doing a newsletter for them to see who you are, learn about who you are, see if they like your style, without having the pressure of purchasing something. They like your work. They can come to your show. They can come to your open studio. They can reach out to you. But they I have found, you know, even with Open Studios, usually the first year people are not buying that much, they have to get a feel of who you are, and then you build that relationship, and then sales happen after that,

Laura Arango Baier: 32:52

yeah, yeah. And that’s an excellent point, again, with patience. And then I wanted to ask you, how does one go about building that newsletter list.

Ellen Howard: 33:05

So I started out actually, with friends. I was, you know, would you be on my newsletter list? And then every time I went out to a show, I’d hand out my card, and I’d mention, hey, I do a newsletter if you’re interested in signing up. This is, you know, the link, or, you know, when people came to my Open Studios, I always had a notebook out, you know, here’s my newsletter, if you’d like to subscribe, you know, send up your, you know, your email list. So it was over years, just building it through exhibitions, shows, things like that, that I had signups.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:41

Yeah, and again, it’s that patience. And now you have so so many people on your list, I’m assuming, and I think we spoke about this last time as well, that it is artists and enthusiasts and also collectors. So one of the things that I’m curious about as well is, how do you balance out the topics of your your newsletters for collectors versus artists? Because obviously an artist might be reading your newsletter to find out more about process, to hear more about your maybe a little bit about your philosophy on how you how you work through a specific problem versus a collector. Might be a lot more interested in the story, the narrative, the what led to this piece? Part. How do you balance out those topics?

Ellen Howard: 34:35

I usually kind of do a combination of both. They usually say, pick one, like if your collector focus or artist focus, but I don’t do that. So if there’s a new piece, I talk about like, why I painted that piece, you know, what? Why was I drawn to that piece? Where was it? You know, and location wise. So with all my new work, I do say that to give the call. Lecture and understanding of why I’m painting that particular subject matter. And then I do have information about workshops or how I teach, you know, things that I have done that have been helpful for students. You know this last I taught in Carmel a couple weeks ago, and I had the students just do a quick six by eight value study before they did their color. And everybody always struggles with value, but just having that discipline of doing that, a small one, you know, I said, Okay, we’re only going to do, you know, 40 minutes. Give them a time frame, and then it just gives them the structure to create their their color. And they can use that as a reference, too. So I do give tips like that, or I’m working with gouache, you know how that process is going. So I do, I do go both areas,

Laura Arango Baier: 35:53

nice, yeah, because it’s, it is interesting to know, like, considering, like I said, artists just have such a different way of reaching out to specific groups of people, like, for example, in social media, I’ve noticed, at least in my following, most of my followers and fellow artists who are also looking at my work, but definitely on my newsletter. I also do notice that it’s a little bit mixed. It’s some artists, but also some people who are not painters, who are just curious. So that’s why I was also curious. Like, huh, how do how does one balance that out? Because so many opportunities and so many things can come through from those newsletters. Like, maybe an artist, a fellow artist, might be like, Oh, this would be great for a show. But a collector might be like, Oh, this would be great on my wall, you know. So it’s a little bit of, like, a complicated, you know, like, which path do we choose? But having that option of, like, just both and balancing it out, that also sounds like a very good midway point.

Ellen Howard: 37:00

Well, even for artists like, hearing about why I painted something like, I think that backstory, you know, even though it’s geared more for a collector, artists are like, Okay, why am I, you know, painting this subject matter. What is it about this subject matter that I enjoy painting? Because I think you know, no matter who you are, if you’re not excited about what you’re painting, the painting is not going to come out great. You know, there’s not going to be that energy or there’s an emotional tie to what you’re creating. So understanding your why, I think, is very important.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:38

Yeah, yeah, that is true. It is very important for artists to self reflect through also observing other artists and their self reflection. That’s a very good point. I also wanted to ask you, what are some business skills that you would recommend for artists to really focus on, I mean, maybe, like, your top one or two skills that you would say, build that

Ellen Howard: 38:06

just show up and say yes. And so what I mean about that is you have to be in person. You have to show up. So if there’s an open house, you know, if there’s an art exhibition, you just never know who you’re going to meet. And one of the things that opened the door for me, a big deal is that I was looking I had a studio, and this woman, Ruth waters, was opening up a museum with studios, and we were friends, and I said to her, is there anything I can do to help you? And she said, Yes. And she goes, will you be one of my curators? And at the time, I was like, Oh, I don’t have time. I just got my studio. I want to do my work, and but I knew she needed help, so I said, Yes. And that opened up a huge amount of doors. So I served on the curatorial committee. I met a lot of artists, and then eventually I proposed my own show, which was very successful. I worked with two other artists, and it was 19 artists for the exhibition. It was plein air to studio. Very well attended. John stern did our forward for us in our brochure, which was incredible and and that led to me being asked to co chair the California art club San Francisco chapter. So you just don’t know where something is going to lead. And it was just me being willing to help her out in the beginning. So I think as an artist, you need to also, you need to be willing to give of yourself to to help. It’s not always about showing up and seeing like, Oh, can I be in this gallery? Or, you know, can I be in this show? But you know, if. You’re a great writer. Oh, can I help you write an email for this show? Or I’m happy to help with XYZ. So I think getting involved that way, you learn more about the business. You learn things about yourself, like, what, where am I? Where are my skills on the business side, what am I good at? What am I not so good at where do I need help on that side? You know, some people are great with social media. Oh, I’ll do your social media blitzes for your show. But I think the willingness to help others is a big business.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:37

Plus, yes, yeah. You know, that’s very underrated, and you’re probably one of the very first people I’ve heard mentioned, you know, helping. Like, yes, it’s, there’s the way of helping, of like, giving information to other people, kind of, like, how we’re doing with the podcast. But I think, actually, you know, physically, for someone to show up somewhere and as an artist, and offer help, offer assistance that’s really great for building relationships, building your skills, building all of these things that, in the end, like will help your career move forward. So that’s a really, really great tip, and very unexpected too, which I love. Yeah. I mean, you never know what, what someone’s experience might be, kind of like yours. That, oh, volunteering led to this opportunity, and that led to this other opportunity, and then this other opportunity. And you also mentioned, oh, if you’re a great writer, you also mentioned last time that some of your writing has also been in magazine, yeah, can’t remember which one now, yeah, plein air.

Ellen Howard: 41:44

Yeah, plein air magazine, yeah, yes. So yeah, I’ve been working about nine months as a guest contributor for that which has been great, because I get to interview artists, learn more about their process, or I deep dive into a topic. Rayleigh scatter is the next article coming out. It’s how we see the colors of a sunset and how they translate in the landscape also. And so that was a really great article to write, and that’s what I actually demoed at the plein air convention last year. Was that topic in gouache, doing the sunset and gouache. So I have

Laura Arango Baier: 42:25

a little bit of a side question there, because I’m very curious. I’ve only tried gouache a couple times. Do you find that painting a sunset with gouache versus painting with oils? Which one do you find a little bit more challenging

Ellen Howard: 42:40

you’re doing, if it’s plein air, you’re doing it both quickly. So with the with the oils, you can kind of pre mix a little bit to, you know, and then it you can adjust the color. So probably, I don’t know that’s a hard question, probably the gouache is, but you’re moving fast with gouache anyway. So, yeah, it’s a quicker medium. I mean, you you can adjust, yeah, probably the gouache, because even though it’s quicker, you have to get those colors right initially, you don’t have a lot of time to lay over additional colors, and with the oils, you can get the initial color in, but you can tweak it a little bit to brighten it or to tone it down a little bit more. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 43:27

yeah, that makes sense. I was just curious because you mentioned it, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, in terms of final advice, like career advice. What would you recommend for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Ellen Howard: 43:48

I would just recommend that you take some patience and maybe start slowly. You know, you know, if you’re able financially to quit your job and do it full time, that’s wonderful. But I think sometimes doing a slow approach, where you’re doing something part time, and then transitioning into being an artist, and there’s a Yeah, like, a lot of components to it, so you have to do a lot of research, like, what type of artists are you going to be? Traditional abstract artists, figurative artists, you know, where do you see yourself fitting in the marketplace? Or, do you see yourself fitting in the marketplace? Or how you going to navigate that? Navigate that? Or are you going to open up a different line of you know, there’s a lot of online things too. So try to understand the business components of it. First. You know, where you think your work would be most suitable. Things evolve, and your work probably will change. And you know, over time, but kind of understanding that first, and just having a thick skin, because there’s a lot of subjectivity in art, you know. Somebody loves your work, another person doesn’t like your work. So you have to feel comfortable about what you’re doing and strong in your own person on on how you want your work to look and just having the strength to know you know, you will find your your path. But it might not be the first or second or third path that you look like it might be the fourth or fifth path?

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

Yeah, yeah. Those are all excellent points. And I think also, there’s this risk that a lot of especially like early career artists, fall into, which is, instead of thinking, Oh, where does my work fit, they think, oh, what’s the most popular thing, and how do I fit myself into it? Which I think is a big mistake, because they end up hating it later on. How does, how does someone, you know, sit back and decide, you know what means more to me? Like, what would you recommend if someone’s stuck on that, on that sort of business, first versus my art first mindset.

Ellen Howard: 46:09

Well, I mean, you have to paint what you really love, so that comes first, you know, and you’ll develop your style. So you do need to have a body of work, you know that you feel like, okay, here’s 10 paintings that represent what I want my work to look like, or what I’m drawn to. And then the second phase of it is finding where the market, where you might fit with that market. You know, there is there clubs that would be aligned with you, or is there local or national shows, there’s our art organizations like almost. I mean, the plein air movement has been incredible. So most states have a plein air organization if that’s what they’re interested in, and even if they’re not plein air, even attending them, because maybe somebody in that group would know another group that would fit or another couple artists so and then, you know, also too, you can always, you know, do your own shows. You know you can, you can contact, you know, an exhibition space and see if you can rent that. If you want to do your own shows, there’s a lot of different ways to do it. You can go with other groups of artists and put together your own group show. You can advertise your own group show. So sometimes I would say, don’t always wait to be asked to do something. Take the initiative. If you feel passionate about your work, take the initiative. Find a venue. Find a spot you know, or if it’s strong, with a group show, find three other artists that align with your work and present something so don’t be afraid to try something new.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:52

Yeah, creating your own opportunities in that sense is also, yeah, very, very smart, because you never know who shows up to that show that may not have happened to you if you had never had, like, I said, the initiative to even attempt it. So I feel like it’s kind of interesting, because there’s a little bit there of, like, having almost, like, the gumption to just go for it, you know, like, yeah, the strength is just, you know what? I’m not going to sit here and wait for this opportunity to fall in my lap, I’m going to make it happen, and this is how it’s going to happen. And I think having that mentality also really, really helps.

Ellen Howard: 48:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it’s very helpful, yeah, yeah, but you got to do the work first.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:34

Yes, yeah. I mean, that’s the base of everything, is having paintings for people to look at and for people to admire, and then everything else has to come after that, for sure. And then I wanted to ask you, do you have any upcoming shows, exhibitions, workshops that you would like to promote?

Ellen Howard: 48:55

Yeah, I actually have a gouache workshop coming up in April in Sun Valley, so if you’re interested in that, and then I’ll be at the California gold medal show in June, which I’m excited about. I’m also teaching in France in June, so French Alps, and I’m excited. I’ve got 12 students coming over for that. And and then the fall, I’ll be with the bright Museum, small work, for their Invitational show in Wyoming. So yeah, my daughter’s wedding is coming up in May too, so the spring is a big time for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:31

So that’s so exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. You’re welcome. Yeah, sounds like a great year. And I will, of course, include all of links for everything that you have mentioned. And then if someone wants to see more of your work, where can they see it?

Ellen Howard: 49:47

I’m represented at Carmel fine art in Carmel, and also Holton Studio Gallery in Berkeley, California, and on my website also, so you can always contact me through there.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:59

Carl. Perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alan, for this. Really honestly, I took so many notes. This is this has been a really helpful conversation. I hope our listeners have also been taking fervent notes, because it’s one of those rare opportunities to talk to an artist who is very, you know, business focused as well. So thank you.

Ellen Howard: 50:21

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate it, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:26

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

This is a follow-up article to The Art of Re-Creation and Solitude. If you haven’t read those essays yet, I recommend you start there. Both of these articles are excerpts from my upcoming book The Sovereign Artist: The liberating power of the creative act.

The soul and nature are carved from the same substance. That’s why, traditionally, we journey into nature to find our “true nature.” Attention to nature is the most effective re-creation method. Artists typically know this intuitively and that’s why most artists paint landscapes from time to time. The creative person almost can’t help but feel drawn toward nature; for their soul recognizes itself. Even the busiest modern person will occasionally stop and admire a beautiful sunset and, even in that briefest of moments, something will stir in his heart. If you wish to be truly born again, spend time in nature; for the very word nature is descendent from the Latin natus which means, “to be born.”

Combining your re-creation methods with nature makes the Self discovery process more effective. For example, meditating in nature will lead to wondrous insights. There is a reason traditional rites of passage typically include a journey of solitude into nature.

In modern society, we are no longer taught how to mature through these important rites of passage. That’s why, in many ways, we are a society of adolescents who never grow up.

But creatives cannot be that way. You must be in the world, but not of it. We, creatives, must grow up. We must mature into true adulthood. We must integrate our shadows and release our souls into full creative expression. We must create our own rites of passage and, in our leisure time, walk the path into true adulthood.

The true adult combines mature skill and discernment with the wondrous eyes of a child. And, if we wish to become a true adult, we must learn the lesson, through faith and experience, that leisure time is just as important, even more important, than constant “productive” activity. Knowing and pursuing this is the mark of the true master.

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And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

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The real art work happens alone in the studio; in silence and isolation.

The creative act itself — that bringing something into being, ex nihilo — cannot be outsourced or shared. No one can see Truth for you and nobody one can make the marks at the easel for you.

But the myth of the lone artist becomes dangerous when it is extended too far; for the Sovereign Artist does not reject the world. Instead, she learns how to move within the market-economy without losing herself. It is not a compromise to seek out those who resonate with our work; nor is it weakness to seek a community of colleagues with which to share ideas. In fact, it is a strength that accelerates the progress of the Sovereign Artist.

The Two Economies, Revisited

If you’ve followed my writing, you know that I have talked of the two economies.

There is the soul economy — where the work comes from.
And there is the market economy — where the work must live.

Artists sometimes feel forced to choose between them; to either “stay pure and unseen,” or to enter the market and feel themselves gravitating toward what performs, what sells, and what gets attention. It is difficult to resist audience capture.

Artists must learn to stand at the edge and straddle these two vastly different economies. The market-economy forms the horizontal while the soul-economy forms the vertical and, together, they construct the cross upon which the true artist must sacrifice herself voluntarily. Her Art must be her true passion, and our passions are those things we are willing to sacrifice ourselves for. As always, the key that balances the two is found where they cross, at our heart, and that balance is constructed with love.

Learning the difference between the two economies will enhance both the artist’s peace of mind and her pocketbook. Knowing the difference between these two economies will help an artist to not feel rejected when a soulful piece doesn’t sell. And, it will help her understand why some pieces sell easily and others do not.

Mastering this balance allows the artist enters the market-economy and yet, to remain grounded in the soul-economy.

Why Most Marketing Feels Wrong

The reason marketing art often feels unnatural to so many artists is not because artists are incapable of it. It’s because most marketing advice is created for and by those who don’t work primarily in the soul-economy.

A market-economy orientation assumes that:

• You are chasing attention

• You are optimizing for reach

• You are willing to adapt your work to demand

From a purely market-economy standpoint, that logic works — and artists feel the terrible cost of doing so immediately, so they pull back, they dabble half-heartedly, or they try to force themselves into systems that drain the life out of their art practice.

The Right Evironment

There’s a saying that goes, “if you can’t change your friends, change your friends.” I would say the same thing about marketing advice.

It’s not really better search engine marketing or an optimized social media strategy that you’re missing. It’s that your not living and working within the right kind of supportive environment. What you need is a place that supports you. A place where your work comes first, where artists are revered, and where marketing is looked at as connection not tactics. You need a place where prospects are considered people, and even friends, and are not considered “eyeballs” to be “monetized.”

Older artists may remember working in such a way, but younger artists — who’ve grown up in the shadow of extractive tech companies who seek to steal your attention above everything — may not have ever seen such magic. Once you see this other, more human, way of working, you can’t unsee it.

The FASO Marketing Circle

This is exactly why the FASO Marketing Circle exists.

The FASO Marketing Circle is not another course, and it’s not another set of tactics. We do have guides, courses, and tactics but those are secondary.

The primary function of the FASO Marketing Circle is to serve as a living environment that supports artists.

And FASO member becomes part of it.

Inside The FASO Marketing Circle, something subtle but powerful happens.

You learn:

• How other serious artists navigate the same tensions

• What actually works over time (not what spikes for a week)

• How consistency compounds when it’s grounded in reality

• How well-known artists have navigated the two economies successfully

And, most importantly, you begin to recalibrate your sense of what is normal, because the truth is, most artists (and most of us in general) are surrounded — online and off — by noise in the form of hot takes, growth hacks, and short-term thinking.

The FASO Marketing Circle cuts through that and, instead of noise, we bring you the real music — the ideas that work to promote art; the ideas upon which an entire art career can be built.

It is kind of like the light side of the Force. What our community brings is not as easy and seductive as the dark side. The community is quieter, more grounded, more supportive, more powerful and, ultimately, far more effective.

You Are Not Building an Audience. You Are Finding Your People.

You’ve been sold a lie. You’ve been told to build a “personal brand” so that you can “monetize your audience.” You’re not a brand and you don’t have an audience. You are a person, an artist, with a style and a reputation. Let’s bring humanity back into the discussion for a change.

There is a fundamental difference between building an audience and finding your people.

The first is extractive, the second is is relational. The former is driven by metrics. The latter is driven by resonance. An audience lives in the market-economy. Your people live in the soul-economy.

The Sovereign Artist understands this intuitively, but often lacks a structure that supports it in practice.

That structure is part of what FASO provides.

We don’t provide only tools to send emails, to update a website, or to send New Art Alerts. We also provide a framework—and a community—that reinforces the right orientation over the long run.

There is a paradox here: To become Sovereign, you must stop outsourcing your strategy and marketing, but, importantly, that does not mean you stop learning from others. It means you must choose your influences carefully.

Ideally, you place yourself in environments that are supportive of the real work of artists. And that’s exactly what the FASO Marketing Circle does.

We don’t tell you who to be. We help you stay who you are while engaging with the world in a way that actually works.

FASO Spring Offer - 52% Off Your First Year

If you’ve been circling this, now’s the time. Even if you have a website, this is a good time to move it to a place where it will actually support your career. Most artist websites gather cobwebs because they have no support and are too hard to update. Updating a FASO site with new work is no harder than posting an image to Instagram.

And we’re running a spring deal — 52% off your first year of FASO.

That gives you the full platform and puts you inside the FASO Marketing Circle from day one.

No tricks. No long explanation. Just a better environment to do the work and get it seen.

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PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

Learn the magic of marketing with us here at FASO!
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For today’s episode we sat down with Emma Kalff, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90–95% of her income from her art after years of gradual building, side jobs, and business education. She began in sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her, and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts. Her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered, dreamlike paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically rather than from strict pre-planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large 30x40 inch linen paintings—“who, what, when, where, why”—that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically, and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business: balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities, and not waiting passively to be “discovered.” Throughout the conversation, she is honest about the psychological challenges—discipline, burnout, distraction from social media—while still affirming that this open-ended, uncertain time offers artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and Patreon to stay updated on her work!

Emma’s FASO site:
emmakalff.com/

Sign up for Emma’s Newsletter!
emmakalff.com/page/49408/newsletter-signup

Emma’s Patreon:
patreon.com/cw/EmmaKalff

Emma’s Social Media:
instagram.com/emmakalff/

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Transcript:

Emma Kalff: 0:00

That’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere. And it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, yeah, you’re running a business, and you live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Emma Kalf, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90 to 95% of her income from her art. After years of gradual building site jobs and business education, she began in Sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts, her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered dream like paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically, rather than from strict pre planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large, 30 by 40 inch linen paintings, who, what, when, where and why, that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business, balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities and not passively waiting to be discovered throughout the conversation, Emma is honest about the psychological challenges, discipline, burnout, distraction from social media, while still affirming that this open ended, uncertain time offers Artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and patreon to stay updated on her work. Welcome Emma to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

Emma Kalff: 2:32

I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:36

Yeah, I’m excited to have you because I love your work, I think there’s something so unique about the vibe in your work. The general sort of theme that just permeates through all of them is this very otherworldly, very dreamlike. And I’ve never seen paintings quite like that before, so I’m very excited to pick your brain about how they have come to be. So thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you, yeah, yeah, of course. But before we dive into your beautiful work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Emma Kalff: 3:16

Yeah. So I’m Emma Kulp. I live in southwestern Colorado, in a super tiny rural town of 1000 people, I work largely for myself. I’d say like 90 95% of my income is from art. Took me a while to get there, definitely, like, not an overnight thing by any means. I let’s see, I’m in my early 30s now. I started out, went to college in Boston, at Boston University, studied sociology, and then realized pretty quickly that social work wasn’t really going to work for me, because it’s really emotionally taxing and draining, and I kind of found myself all the time in college. I was just in the Arts Building looking at the paintings, because they had this big hall with all the the painting majors work, and I was always in there looking at everything. And yeah, I graduated, and I bought a one way ticket to New Orleans. Didn’t really have a plan, but ended up modeling, figure modeling in art classes and stuff, and just started to become completely enthralled in the art world. Because every time I modeled, I got, like, a little lesson, and I got to watch everybody draw and learn. And so I got hooked really quickly, and I ended up studying at the Academy of Fine Arts in New Orleans after modeling there under alcipus osals. He actually recently passed. He passed in September. Unfortunately, I. But yeah, I had a really, I was fortunate. I had a really, really good education in the arts, classical education, and very rigorous and after that, I did mostly landscape work, a lot of plein air. And then I started, more recently, layering the figure into my work, and I mostly paint oil on wood panel. And, yeah, that’s what I’m doing now.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:34

Yeah, yeah. I think, Oh, I love that. There’s nothing better than, you know, hearing someone who very much. Like, didn’t realize, like, Oh, this is where I’m going, and just went with the flow, because that’s what it really feels like. Because it goes to show that sometimes, you know, our intuition just tends to work in magical ways, or even just the things we naturally gravitate towards. And hearing that you were a model, I love that, because, of course, I studied at academies, and there was nothing more fun to than, like, talking to the model. And usually they’re always artists. They’re, they tend to be musicians, actors, performers, also very, very artistically oriented. So I think it’s really cool that you were able to, you know, get in there and also like, you know, peek at, like, what people are doing, and, like, listen to the lessons, and then decide, okay, now I’m gonna do this because I’m sure it must have given you also a little bit of an idea of what it was going to be like to study how to paint, right?

Emma Kalff: 6:30

Yeah, that’s a good point, actually, yeah. And it, you know, New Orleans, the depth of the art world is very intense, like, there’s a lot of different pockets that you can sort of vanish into in the art world. And so I got, yeah, I got an inside look behind the scenes in like two lane, but also like private artist studios and like sculptor studios painters, like random little offshoot drawing groups that people tried to start that didn’t go anywhere. And, like, it was just a very broad sort of education in a way that I didn’t even, I don’t think I even realized that at the time. But, yeah, it was very, it was very cool,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:16

yeah, yeah. And also just, I think, the really cool thing that I think you experienced, that not many artists kind of think about, also, is getting that insight about the actual structure of these schools. Because sometimes, you know, someone would be like, Oh, I really want to go study here, but then they don’t really, they can’t really visualize or imagine, like, the actual way that these schools are structured, like when you’re working with the model, and then when you’re working on still life or working on or working on another project, it’s a very it’s kind of rigid, it’s very specific. So knowing that is very helpful, because you know what to expect. Yeah, and do you find that you always wanted to follow the path of the artist? Or was that like, you know, it just kind of emerged as you went on,

Emma Kalff: 8:04

yeah, the more I look back on my life, I’m like, I don’t think I could have done anything else. For one thing, I’m really bad at working for other people. I’m like, I don’t have that personality type. Like, I can’t show up at an office at nine o’clock in the morning dressed in a way that I wouldn’t normally dress, and talking in a way that I wouldn’t normally talk like I I cannot do that, unfortunately, so. But also, yeah, from the time I was really little, I think this is the only thing that I really wanted to do. And my mom used to take us to like I grew up outside of Philadelphia, and she used to take us to the Philly Museum of Art all the time. And I would, I’d have these almost like spiritual experiences in front of the paintings at a really young age, like, I mean, just huge paintings, and I would just stand in front of them, and almost like cry when I was even like, I don’t know, 1012, 13 years old. And, yeah, it’s interesting. I was always really attached to painting, and then sort of falling into the art world, you develop this other relationship to it, where I have a more technical view of it now, and, like, I don’t go to a museum and cry in front of the paintings anymore, which is sort of, it’s a bit of a loss, but it’s also just growing into, I think, being an artist and like building a career out of it, you Just start to stand at a different angle towards it. But yeah, I the more I think about it, the less I think I would have done anything else with my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:51

Yeah, I feel like a lot of artists relate to that, also the I can’t imagine working regular quotations. I. Job because I say the exact same thing. It’s like, I don’t like working for someone else. I don’t like being told what to do, because it there’s something about it just feels like micromanagement. So it’s like, it’s funny. But then at the same time, I think being your own boss can be really tough too, because, like I mentioned to you before, it’s like, I hope, I hope your boss is nice to you. Because I think as artists, we tend to be kind of, kind of rough with ourselves. It’s, it’s a bit of a it’s kind of, it’s a double edged sword, because, of course, we want to reach for excellence, and the way to reach for excellence is by, like, working hard towards it. But I think, you know, it’s also useful to not overdo it, because then, if you’re burnt out from putting yourself into so many roles and trying to do so many things, you end up, you know, struggling, and then you can’t work for like, a month or two or a year, because you’re just so burned out. But yeah, I totally relate to that. And then even also that sort of like loss of innocence, of like, Oh, I know how this is painted. It’s no longer, quote, unquote magical anymore, but at the same time, yeah, and it can feel kind of sad, but then you can still kind of look at the images that inspire you anyway, and still be fascinated by them, maybe not in the same sense, because I totally relate to that too, but you still get that feeling of, huh? I wonder how they did that aspect. I wonder how they painted this little piece, what pigments that they use, because it becomes like this almost dissection of understanding of like composition and storytelling and all these things that add complexity. And you can still look at the image and think, I remember when I used to cry in front of this, but at the same time, though, it’s like, oh, I mean, I won’t, but, I mean, I’ll cry, but it’s because I want to paint like, because it like moves me in the same way anymore, but it’s kind of cool, because that means you feel like it’s reachable to an extent. I feel like when, when we’re, you know, incapable of doing it, it does, you know, have a different feeling. But having that capability, it’s like, Oh, I’m gonna grab it. I’m gonna do it. If anything, it’s like, almost like motivational,

Emma Kalff: 12:18

yeah, that is true. It’s more of like a technical fascination than anything else, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:25

and speaking, actually also of ideas and creation. Where does an idea begin for you for your paintings?

Emma Kalff: 12:36

So, yeah, like I said, I went to this really classical school where it was a very one to one relationship. It was like, there’s a piece of fruit on the table at 2pm like, paint the piece of fruit on the table at 2pm don’t mess it up. You know, fix this. Fix that. It was like a very which was great. It was a very one to one relationship with what you were seeing and what you were painting. And I think that’s super important to develop that as an artist, because you’re actually learning the language. Like my teacher used to say, if you come out of an art school, somebody should be able to put something in front of you, any given object on the planet, and you should be able to paint it. And if they’re not teaching you that, then, like, what have you actually learned? So I’m, I’m super grateful for that. But after I got out of school, I did sort of want to deviate from that, I guess, in my own way, and move into, like, more layered work that wasn’t such a one to one relationship to reality. And I had a teacher in school, Gus Hoffman, and he he was always talking about how he builds a composition as he goes and he doesn’t start with a single idea. He just sort of like, goes, follows it and lets it click into place. And so I started exploring that, basically where something starts for me is usually a photo. I always am taking pictures of everything. I try to take a lot of candid photos of people like this is my sister, just like eating something on the side of the road at one point, and that that background is different landscape that I layered in. But yeah, I really like candid images of people. Also, where I live in Colorado is super beautiful. It’s it looks like the Swiss Alps out here. It’s like this huge mountain range, the San Juans with the snow on it, and like, everywhere you turn, it’s just really beautiful. So it’s a combination of photos and the landscape, because I have such a long history of. Of plein air. I am always driving around with an easel in my car, and I always have a couple, like, I probably have three or four panels in my car right now. I have a bunch of paint and stuff. So, like, I pull over whenever I see something I like, and have some time, I’ll pull over and paint it, and then I’ll take that landscape back into the studio and layer stuff into it. Don’t layer a figure. And then sometimes I’ll take something out, or I’ll change the color palette, or just sort of keep moving like that until it sort of clicks into base. I very rarely start with an idea and then execute it exactly how I’ve drawn it. I have a really hard time that I usually kind of let it unfold, which, you know, is it’s a sort of a double edged sword, because I have paintings that took me, like, three years to complete, because they were they were gone over so many times that you wouldn’t recognize the original image if you saw it to the last image, like the final painting that you see, there’s like three other paintings underneath that. But, yeah, that’s, that’s mostly how I work now.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:22

Sorry, I was muted. Yeah, no, I love that, because that it’s, I feel like, in terms of process, you mentioned a lot of things there that were very important, which is, you know, the over planning type of stuff that, like we artists tend to do, or the approach of, like, trying to organically allow a piece to develop as you work with it. I think those are, like, those two parts of of the coin that are, I guess, like we all experience and experiment with those types of ways of working at some point, because the rigid over planning, like you said, like, it just sometimes it just doesn’t work out the same way. Like, like, you lay everything how you think it’s supposed to go, and then it doesn’t. It just doesn’t, like, maybe the arm isn’t in the right place, like, you imagine it in a different spot, but it just physically can’t do that. But then I really love that idea of just allowing something to develop, or even, like a halfway kind of, like what your instructor mentioned, where it’s like, oh, I start with like, maybe this one thing, and then it just comes together. I think that’s really awesome. And then currently with your work, because you created a really cool series that’s very much based on some sort of work that you did, where you went around and you did, I believe it was, it was like, farming, yeah, yeah. I really love those pieces. And then, because it’s so there’s so there’s something very much, like, tied into memory and like, how you know, it’s really cool because, like, even in the painting showing your background there of your sister, I wouldn’t have thought that she wasn’t in that landscape, which I think is really cool too, because you have that’s one of those really difficult things to do as an artist, is to be able to make your figure feel like they’re in that landscape and not like a sticker, which tends to happen sometimes. So I think you’ve really pulled that off, and especially also in the other paintings I’ve seen of yours with people you’re welcome. What are you trying like? What’s your current question that you are chasing right now in your work? What is What are you trying to figure out in your work right now, whether it’s, you know, process or subject matter?

Emma Kalff: 18:48

Yeah, it’s funny talking about questions, because I’m actually working on a series of 530, by 40 inch paintings that are each painting is a question. So there’s who, what, when, where and why, are the five paintings. And it’s my first time working on linen. Actually, maybe since art school, I sort of moved away from campus, but I’m on linen now, and I actually, I really, really like it, but it’s sort of a metaphor, I guess, for this time that we live in like, I feel very, almost like I’m in this existential crisis where I’m a little paralyzed and I don’t know, like what to do or where to go or how I’m supposed to move anymore, because we’re in this socially and politically, like, highly volatile and very transitory space. It feels like, like we don’t have a cultural moment or landmark almost in history to compare to this, because the influence of technology is so heavy. So it’s kind of like we’re all learning how to walk in a way, like how to figure this out and so kind of just. Asking these like super basic questions, feels like a starting place where I can sort of project my ideas onto and I actually got this book. It’s like the dictionary of archetype and symbol in art history when I started this series, because I thought, you know, like we aren’t connected to in the same way that we are in such a confusing time. It’s it that translates into the art world too, right? Like you used to be able to look at a painting and literally read what the artist was saying. It wasn’t like up for interpretation. It wasn’t it was either like commissioned by the church as a direct commission of a certain religious icon or story, or it was commissioned by a wealthy patron who wanted the specific sort of image of their family or what have you. It was very top down, and it was very direct. And even like you can go back and look at old still lifes, and it’s like, in this book, it’s like each object that you look at has this specific meaning, like a candle, if you put a candle, it was like the symbol for the fleeting nature of life. Or you put a deck of cards, and that was the crazy thing to me. Is a deck of cards used to be the symbol for Vice, which I’m like, if you put a deck of cards in a painting. Now, I think people would like that would totally not connect. That would completely not someone would not be like, Oh, you live a life of vice. Like, you know, it was more be like, Oh, this is kind of a fun touch or something. So I think that’s all really interesting. And I I started to look through this dictionary and sort of incorporate some of the symbols into my paintings, and sort of exploring putting those old symbols that has such a concrete meaning into a contemporary context where that meaning isn’t really there anymore, but you can still use the symbol. And I guess I’m thinking about, I don’t think that we’ll ever go back to a time when there’s such a strict definition, visual definition, to things in painting, but I’m curious where we end up a few decades from now, and like, whether we will sort of loosely reinvent some new symbols of meaning, or if we’ll just keep moving in this, like open ended direction, which the open ended direction is great, like, I’m very grateful to be an artist in A time where you can do what you want. And I think I’m, I’m doing what I’m doing, because I’m living in this time. Like, if I was living even 50 or 100 or 200 years ago, I would be completely different, probably. But yeah, I’m, I’m glad that we live in this open ended time. I just think it’s, it’s like, in such a stark contrast to where it was, and it’s, yeah, it’s interesting to to just compare and like, think about where it was and where it’s going,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:14

yeah, yeah. And I feel like, I, I totally relate to that. There’s nothing more fun than like, coming across like, oh, this. This object over here actually means this. And one of my favorite ones was, like, if a portrait painter painted someone and then they put a fly on them, it was supposed to mean that they were a terrible person, or, like, they had, like, some sketchy thing, because it’s like, huh, I would totally sneak that into a painting if I ever did like a painting of someone I didn’t particularly like or wanted to represent as like a negative figure. So I totally love that. I’m also very much into, like, the symbolism of old paintings. And it is, it is a great pity that we don’t quite have that anymore, in the same way, you know, because time goes on and things change, I feel like the equivalent, maybe for a generation, is memes, where sounds have meaning. Now, where you hear it is like, Oh, that. That’s the sound when someone’s really disappointed that the thing they bought turned out to be bad, or, you know, stuff like that. I feel like that’s maybe, like the newest stuff that’s going around. But it is really wonderful, like you said, to be in a time where you can do anything on a canvas, and it will most likely be appreciated and seen by tons of people because internet, which also brings me to something you mentioned, which is we are definitely in unprecedented times. And I heard a person describe it as we are building an airplane in the sky, and we don’t know if it’s going to work, because that’s the repercussions that it’s had on, like, you know, people’s self esteem, like children, for example, the addictive qualities of Instagram and social media and all these things. These are all fascinating things. And then, of course, AI like, there’s. So much happening in our time that we just we don’t know what to do with it. So I think it is, it is a little bit like how you said, an existential crisis. I also feel the same. I also feel like, oh my god, this tiny black box that I hold every day kind of freaks me out. But also I can read stuff that’s really cool about paintings and look at paintings and these things that I love, it’s almost like a love hate relationship, which really sucks, but I totally relate to that. So I’m really excited to see your paintings, because I bet it’ll be a really cool interpretation of, like, different symbols, and I’m very, very curious now do you when do you think you’ll have these completed? Or do you not have, like, a particular timeline for them?

Emma Kalff: 25:47

Um, my loose timeline right now is dropping them in July. I’m hoping that that will give me I have all the concepts, and most of them are like, 50, 60% of the way there, except for who I’m getting really stumped on who, because I don’t want to hit the nail too hard on the head or, like, make it to like, yeah, too, yeah. Like a person with a mask on or something. So I’m trying to, I’m looking for ways to make that one a little more subtle, but I’m thinking I’ll drop them in July. I’m going to put them out through my newsletter, which I’ll give you the link and yeah, so if you’re interested in that, just sign up at my newsletter and you’ll get first dibs on that. I’m really excited about it, and they’re pretty large scale for me, like I, because I lived on the road and did plein air on the road for about a year. I got really used to doing I did like, I think it was 40 little eight by 10 panels, and because that could just stick them in my car, you know, they were the little, thin little panels. So I’m, I’m very happy to have a studio now and maybe doing some bigger work.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:04

Yeah, yeah, I feel like that’s like, oh, maybe not every artist, but I think most people that I’ve met, we always feel like I want to do big. Want to do big. It’s a challenge. Just more space. There’s more detail that needs to be input, right? Because they’re the smaller paintings, they can be very detailed, right? But the bigger ones, the challenge is making it look good. Because I like, if you’re doing something life size, for example, it can be, you know, really tough to really make it work. And at that point, of course, having a studio space is very, very important. You can’t really do that out of your car, yeah, but, you know, having the space to step back and, like, look at the if you have a model, or look at the image, and then look at painting, make sure that it’s looking, you know, optically, all right, yeah, that’s really exciting. It’s always fun to hear, you know, artists like challenging themselves as well. Like, oh, my next thing is a really cool set of pieces. But then also, like, with a the extra part of, like, challenging your technique with size as well, whether it’s smaller or bigger. I think that’s really one of those things that a lot of us should be pursuing as artists as well. You know that challenge trying to find something more, something new for ourselves with what we already know. And I also wanted to ask you, because you did mention before that you make a good 90 to 95% on your work, which is really awesome for you, what was the turning point that made you believe that you can make a living from your work, and did you have, like, a specific mindset that you have to change in order to get there?

Emma Kalff: 28:49

Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, so I moved out to Colorado in 2020, like, right when covid hit, and I worked for a bit on a farm, and then I was unemployed, and I took this artist Summit, this three day artist Summit, with the professional artist Institute. You know Miguel Mayer, no know that name? Yeah, he runs this. It’s called the professional artist Institute, and I think I got it in my email, and I was kind of just living in this, like, covid borderland of like, these long days that ran together and I had nothing to do. And I thought, Okay, I’m going to take this summit. And I sat on my laptop for three days, and they went over all these really fascinating, like very concrete aspects of the art world, the professional art world that I had never thought about, like I had been selling my painting for bucks, you know, on the road, or 60 bucks or whatever. Like, I wasn’t doing that with the aim of, like supporting myself completely. It was just sort of a side. Hustle, and yeah, so I took that, and then I got kind of hooked, and I signed up for like online. You can get this package of online courses through the Professional Arts Institute. So it really was just like hitting the right resource at the right time, and I still worked on the side for three, four years after that, before I, like, went full time. But, yeah, I really, I really don’t have a business skill set naturally. Like, I think every artist is gifted in a certain area. You know, like you have the you have the technical side of like, your competence in making the sort of art that you want to make, and then you have the business side. And like both sides have a ton of individual skills that you have to learn. And it does. It will do it like serves you well to identify, like, where your strengths are. And then the good thing is, you can always learn and make up for what you don’t inherently have, because we live in the internet age, like the internet sucks, but it has helped me tremendously to like, be able to take classes and learn from people. I’m always in a class, like, right now I’m in Lennon bone. He runs stop the starving artist, and that’s all about, like, learning how to sell online, because I’ve always had, like, very local clients, and I want to, like, learn how to sell on the internet now. So yeah, it was really just getting lucky and finding that resource and being like, Oh, this is actually I don’t have to float in this nebulous cloud of of waiting to be discovered or hoping that someone’s going to bump into me on the street and take a big interest in my work and become a patron. Like, I feel like that’s sort of the cloud that I was floating in before I started taking classes. And I think that’s, that’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way, and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere, and it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, it’s, it’s a business, like you’re running, you know, yeah, you’re running a business. And we live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:48

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah. And I think that’s also part of that starving artist myth is the something’s gonna land on your lap, and that’s not, that’s not how it works, unless you’re, you know, already incredibly wealthy and don’t have to worry about your bills, and maybe your wealthy parents have good connections, right? Because that’s oftentimes what happens in certain parts of the art world. No hate to them. I mean, it must be really fortunate to be in that situation. But for for. The 80% of us who are not in that situation, maybe even 90, 99% of us who are not in that situation, we have to find other ways, right? Like, how you’re saying, like, find resources online. Those seem really great. Actually jotted them down, yeah and yeah, just that’s part of it as well. You know, being proactive in it, because it is, yeah, like, the idea of, like, the Bohemian artist who just, like, lives in poverty, and like, you know, this very like Oscar Wilde type of, like, it’s like, you can, you can do that too, if you want. But for those of us who want to have food on the table and maybe, hopefully a mortgage someday, can’t, can’t really do that. Can’t have the bohemian life. So yeah, that’s awesome. And then, since you do primarily live from your work, what are, what are some ways that you’ve been balancing your economy as an artist, and how has that experience been for you?

Emma Kalff: 36:00

What does that phrase mean, balancing your economy.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:02

So, like, you know, like, the, for example, if you want to, like, if you know how much your your rent is, right? Like, do you know? Like, Oh, I gotta sell X paintings, or I gotta do this. Or, like, how have you been managing that aspect of living from your work?

Emma Kalff: 36:19

Yeah, that’s fair. Um, I’m fortunate. I live in a rent controlled space, so my rents not very high. I I would be really struggling if my rent was like $2,000 or whatever most people are paying. But yeah, it’s a mix of commission work, like in a given year, sometimes I’ll have a lot of commissions back to back. Sometimes I won’t also something that helps balance it is to have a wide range of prices. So, like, my original work varies from like 600 to like this one is, like, the biggest one I’ve done, and it’s 13 grand. So there’s a very wide array of price points that people can pick, and then I’ll do like, print releases too. So it’s just figuring out, like, who your buyer is and what they may or may not be able to shell out. And also I usually, if I’m doing a commission like, I’ll let people pay in parts. So sometimes I’ll have a commission that pays out over, like, six months or a year, and it might not be a huge sum, like every month, but it’s still adding into the pot. And then I do classes. I do, like individual, one on one plein air workshops. And what else do I do? I have Patreon where I put, like, a little easy, like simple beginner painter lesson every two weeks. And so with all of those things combined, it’ll shake out every month that I’ve got enough. But I think the important thing is, like having, having a bunch of irons in the fire is really, has helped me, and it’s also like psychologically easier. I think if you have like, 10 Things going it’s kind of scattered brain. But it’s also like, if one thing fails, you’re not you’re not completely bottoming out and being like, oh my god, I can’t do this. It’s like, okay, I’m just gonna throw one more thing on the fire. If it doesn’t work out, it’s fine. But like, that way you always have sort of a rotating group of things that you’re that you can possibly be making money from. And yeah, it helps to balance your like expectations and not be so like having to succeed in any one area, and like, certain things can ebb and flow. Like, if you don’t have, like, I haven’t had a, I have a commission right now, but last year was pretty slow, you know. So then it’s like, the other things can start to take up. And, yeah, it just sort of like, goes in a rotation,

Laura Arango Baier: 39:18

yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s another really great point, you know, you can’t, like, every especially, you know, when you’re working for yourself, and it’s just more organic. In that sense, there are going to be, you know, times of like, Oh, I’m making a good amount, and times of like, oh, okay, I’m not making as much. But you know, if you’re smart, right, and you live below your means and you’re saving money, you won’t be too afraid of, like, Oh no, I’m not selling enough this month. Like, how you said it’s good to have, like, not all your eggs in one basket, because you drop that basket and you’re kind of kind of screwed. So it’s good to have that. Yeah, that’s a really great point. And of course, it does help to have to live in a place that is not killing your. Bank account. Because I think right now that’s also one of the big, big problems that a lot of artists are facing right now. But you know, at least the internet is a wonderful source as well for okay, I can literally live on an island somewhere and still be able to as long as it has a like a UPS or a FedEx or DHL, I can survive, you know, yeah, but yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, too, what so far has been the greatest challenge you have faced in your career as an artist? I

Emma Kalff: 40:43

I think it’s like, staying disciplined in the studio and like, artists are notorious for, like, we only want to work when we’re super inspired, and then when we’re not, it’s like, oh, I don’t want to do this. Like, and I’m, I’m certainly no exception to that. So I definitely have times where I’m just, like, really burned out. I don’t want to go in the studio, I don’t want to paint. I don’t have any exciting ideas going on and having the discipline and, like, making yourself show up is really hard. And sort of in the same vein, it’s been really hard to like all these little incalculable things, right? Like, how long is my work day supposed to be? How quantitatively, how many paintings am I supposed to produce in a month or a year? How many are supposed to go to a gallery? How many am I supposed to like hang on to for myself? How many should be? You know, it’s like when you when you work for someone else, all of those things are sort of taken out of the equation. And it’s a it is an easier life in a lot of respects, because you work a set amount of hours, and then you know exactly what you’re going to be paid and when you’re going to be paid. And to navigate the art world on your own is hard, because you can put in 10 hours of work on a painting and not be paid for that 10 hours for 10 years, right? Like a painting can sell 10 years later, or it can sell next week. And so navigating that alone can be, it can be really tough. And also, like, I think we live in this, well, America, where I am is like, very it’s, it’s super workaholic culture, and then it’s like, you know, you have to balance like, Okay, how much do I want to do and how much of a Break do I want to give myself? And like, yeah. So I think the hardest part has been answering all of those like little questions about, How is this supposed to go? How do I structure my work day, and how do I keep myself, like, disciplined, to where I continue to do it and I don’t burn myself out, but I still produce a set amount of work. Like, that’s all been pretty difficult.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:27

Yeah, I think that’s no matter what I mean, no matter what type of self employment you’re in. I think that’s like, the key, key, key thing is, you know, no, there’s no one to tell you what to do. Like you said, there’s no convenient like, oh, just show up at the office. They tell me what I’m supposed to get done, and then I go home right which, my opinion, that’s a little bit like putting all your eggs in one basket anyway, because it’s, you know, that company goes under, you’re kind of screwed. But, yeah, I think that’s, I totally agree with that challenge, because I also feel that because, I mean, when you’re in a place where, like, you can literally do anything in your time, right? And you have a whole day where you can choose, it becomes very challenging. Because, of course, we have these distracting little beep boop boxes that we have in our pockets that love to be a time suck. But then also I relate that to that too. You know that difficult, like, Man, I’m not inspired today, or like, kind of tired, or like, I just am not feeling it. But you know, still having to show up, I think that’s probably a hurdle we will always face forever as artists. Because unless you know, someone’s really on a roll, and they can keep that role going their entire career, that’s awesome. I doubt that that’s humanly possible. I think most of us, we we have to take vacations too, or, like, actually, Kim across. Asked an article recently by from a study that was done on creativity and how being bored and like, taking time away from like, if you just finished like, a bunch of projects, like, taking some time away from them, and like, let your brain kind of settle down and refresh it really, really helps with coming up with even more ideas like, so there’s, like you said, I think we have since we do live in in a culture, at least in North America, and I would say in some parts in Europe, as well, of productivity, first, productivity first. Like creating working, working, working. It burns you out precisely because there’s no real space to pause. Like, I’m sure many of people listening have also experienced like, you have a break and you immediately fill that break with something to do that has to get done, which, unfortunately, we do also exist in that world where, like, oh, I finished my job. Now I can finally clean my dishes or do my laundry. But there is, you know, some aspect of, like, giving yourself, like, time to just read a book, or, like, sit down in the silence and not listen to anything that also really helps.

Emma Kalff: 46:11

Yeah, I really miss being bored like I, I really miss being like a teenager and these like I, when I was in high school, the summer, days were just eternal, and it was like, oh my god, I could, like, rip my eyes out of my head, but that’s so important, you know, like, and it’s, it’s really a Herculean effort now to make yourself be bored, like, to actively be Like, I’m not going to sit on the phone and I’m going to sit on my couch and, like, stare at the wall until I’m, like, really exhausted from that. I, yeah, I’ve been thinking about just getting a flip phone and, like, leaving my my smartphone in the studio, just as, like, a this is a work thing. Like, I’m going to build for Instagram or whatever, and take pictures for that, but like, sort of walking it away to not have it constantly accessible. I’ve been toying with that, but, yeah, that’s another thing that’s it’s really hard, because now that that eye, like the eye of the camera, is in the studio. It lives in the studio. If you’re, like, that sort of painter, I know not everybody is. But like, I make a lot of videos, and I think a lot of people do, and it’s like, when you when you bring that in, it takes a lot of effort to only film and, like, not let it distract you from working. And that’s it’s really it’s really hard, and at the same time, it’s super cool that you know you can build your this is like the first time in the history of humanity that you can build your own personalized audience that is literally made up of people who specifically want to see what you’re doing. And with the touch of a button, you can say whatever you want to them at any second of any day, like that. Is really cool. It’s really cool. And I think it’s like, a very important tool, but, yeah, like learning how to balance, it is

Laura Arango Baier: 48:15

it’s very difficult. Yeah, yeah. I relate. I relate to that, especially what you just said about, you know, having a camera in the studio, because it does, in some ways, it shifts the energy of the room, because now it’s like, oh man, did I position the camera correctly? Did it like, the is it in the right spot? Or, Oh no, it’s out of focus, or, Oh no, my camera died and I didn’t notice. There’s so many little extra distractions that end up happening. It’s almost better to just have like a surveillance camera or something like, oh, like, because it just, it’s a it’s so distracting to like, Okay, I’m recording on my phone. Oh no. My phone ran out of like, memory. Oh, no, I gotta get, like, a, gosh, like a cloud service or something like, it’s, it’s so much extra stuff, you know, like the whole content creation hamster wheel, as I’m beginning to call it these days. It just feels like it can sometimes be a double edged sword, much like what we’ve discussed, because one, it’s awesome. You can connect with people who can observe, you know what you’re doing and learn from it, or feel inspired by it. Because there’s so many of us out there who do you know go on the internet specifically to connect with other people and be inspired by other people’s projects or other people’s ideas. But then if it starts taking over too much, then it feels like an obligation, and it almost feels like, oh, I want to go into the studio, but I have to record this, but I don’t really want to deal with the tripod and the camera placement, and then, oh no, I bumped into it. Because it was so close to me when I was painting this one part, and now I gotta re record, but then I already painted that, like, it’s just, oh, it is so frustrating. Like there’s like, it just feels like there’s no way. Although I did think of getting, like, those, you know, those really evil metal glasses that have the camera on them. I thought about getting just because I’m not gonna record other people out there. It’s just so convenient for painting. Yeah, it’s like, oh, boop. Now they’re on well,

Emma Kalff: 50:28

because then you film something from the side, but then it’s filmed on this weird like, I like, often will film something and then I look at it after I’ve recorded it, and I’m like, it’s so skewed, it doesn’t even make sense to post this. So then you have to, like, get your camera right here, and then you’re literally, like, painting like it’s crazy, awful.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:48

Yeah, I’ve seen in the early days, I think I saw I was, maybe it was Michael Klein. He did a video tutorial, but he had a GoPro, and it was okay. But I feel like his later videos are, of course, much, much better. The GoPro was a little bit like it just wouldn’t focus completely, or like it would move around a little too like, too much. But I feel like, yeah, that’s, you see, that’s like, one of those unique things that even when GoPros were much, much, much more popular, we were still trying to figure out how to record ourselves for people. So I yeah, hopefully we can find a good solution. Maybe we can all use those met a glasses and make people stop using them to record people who don’t want to be recorded. It’s like, oh, you should market this for artists who are trying to record themselves or stream. But, yeah, yeah. And then also, speaking of marketing, since you said, you know, you mentioned, you have quite a few things going at the same time. Do you find that there’s like, one thing that is one marketing thing, or one like, avenue of sales, almost like, you know, sales funnel, or any sort of like, of these irons that you keep that actually has been the most helpful for your career.

Emma Kalff: 52:08

I think it’s just good old fashioned, like talking to people. I read this thing a few years ago that was like getting out there and socializing and like going to our openings, or like going to the bar, and like talking about your work is not less important than like being in the studio. Like being in the studio, painting is not more important than that. If that’s what you’re trying to do is like, have a career. And I thought that that was really interesting. And I’ve started to like, it’s hard, right? It’s hard to, like talk about your art, because it feels sort of like you’re, like, showing off, or you’re tooting your own horn. Or, you know, it can feel very like self important. At least, I struggled with that, and like I used to when I lived in New Orleans, I had this license where you can sell in the French Quarter. There’s like, this huge raw iron fence around the St Louis Cathedral in the French Quarter, and you can get a license, and then 365, days a year, 24/7, you have this spot that you can set up on the fence and, like, hang your your paintings. And I did that, but I was really bad at it, because I couldn’t talk to people. Like I would just sit there and I would watch people, hundreds of people, it’s the French Quarter, hundreds of people come by every day. And I would watch people, and they would stop and look at my stuff, and then they would keep going. And it took me a long time to be like, Oh, it’s because I’m not talking to them. I didn’t think that, like, I was the sort of catalyst. I felt that the art would sort of like, do its own thing. But over I think I did that for like, two years, and over that time, I started realizing that people that talk and, like, put their stuff out there in a in a nice way for people and like, have a little chat. Those are the ones that are that are selling. And I, I do. I live in a really tiny town, I think I said population of 1000 but there are a lot of people here that love art, and there’s a lot of people with disposable income, there’s a lot of retired people, and so I think, like one of the big mistakes that I’ve made living out here is to underestimate that local the potential that local people might be interested in my work. Like, I think I was in this mindset of, oh, I have to get to New York, or I have to get in these galleries in LA or at least Denver or Santa Fe, I have to get into these urban places. But often, like, You’re the biggest proponent. Like. You’re the biggest sort of factor that that will help people connect, if that makes sense, and just sort of not caring about, like, looking stupid, and just talking about it until it feels natural, it did take a while, like, to figure out what I wanted to say and how to, how to, yeah, but I think just like, staying open and, you know, if someone is, like, expressing an interest in my work, I’ll be like, Oh, why don’t you come by the studio and, like, it doesn’t. It’s not to be like, Oh, do you want to buy this painting. It’s like, No, we’re gonna sit and like, I’ll make us some coffee and we’ll have a chat, and then maybe in a year, you’ll buy something, and maybe you won’t. And like, that’s fine, but like, we’ve had that chat. And, you know, you don’t even have to have, like, a studio. You can just sort of have people over in your living room and be like, these are my three paintings that I have, or whatever. Like, I think that that it doesn’t have to be this huge thing of, like, becoming this big artist in New York or whatever. Like, I think the times are changing, and you can really do it from wherever and like, just work with what you have.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:18

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you’re really emphasizing the local community aspect, because I’ve interviewed very many artists, and a good amount of them have focused first on local communities. And of course, I mean, I feel like it’s like, you become the community artist, right? Like You’re like the well known person in town, and people tend to really love that. You know, it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s our local artist. She does this, or he does that. And I’ve also, I lived on a tiny island of 1000 something. Maybe it was 2000 people tops, and they had, like, two local artists who were very, very beloved, and like, we’re sold so much whenever, like, tourists would come by. So it goes to show, you, know, really being part of some a small community, I think, is so much. It can be so much more fruitful than like New York City, because it’s easy to get lost in New York City, amongst other artists and amongst other people who are also just building, like, very surface level relationships, instead of, you know, becoming involved with community and becoming involved with like, Oh, hey, stop by my studio. Let’s hang out. Let’s have a coffee, right? That’s very different from like, Here’s my card. I hope you like my work, and then maybe that person just throws it out. Because, you know, I when I lived in New York City, that was very much the feeling you get there. Everyone’s really, really trying to make things work and get noticed by Gallery, and get like, 20 million rejections. But that’s, of course, part of it. But then, yeah, nurturing the local stuff is, is very fulfilling and underrated, also, because, you know, it is usually a lot less expensive to live in a smaller community than it is in New York City where, like, the rent, I think, has reached like $5,000 a month. Yeah, I think, but I think that’s for like a multiple bedroom household. Maybe, like a two bedroom. It’s insane. Yeah, hopefully it goes down when I was there. Was definitely not that. But, yeah, it’s definitely a much, much easier in a smaller community. And if you find a place kind of like how, you know, you find a nice place that you resonate with as well. You don’t just move to middle of nowhere, anywhere. I think it’s nice if it’s a place you actually do feel attracted to to some extent. Like you mentioned, you know, your surroundings are very beautiful, and that’s one of the important things that you’re in a place that you feel inspired by as well.

Emma Kalff: 58:54

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think. And it’s also like, I think galleries are really important structurally to the art world. And there’s a lot of, like, really awesome galleries that that sell work for artists and, like, help their career. But I think it’s also like, I used to think, Oh, if I just got in, like, if I just got in, like, my dream gallery, then I would be set. But it’s like, you know, you can get in the coolest, most badass gallery with the best reputation that has a ton of traffic in, like, New York or Chicago or something, and they maybe just don’t have chemistry with your work, and I can’t sell it. And it’s like, there’s something to be said for that too, where it’s like, I don’t know that goes back to having irons in the fire and being like, Okay, if this doesn’t work out, I’ll have something else. But I think the search for a gallery can be really long and difficult and like, yeah, just because it’s a gallery that you will idle. Eyes that carries a lot of artists that you admire doesn’t mean that they’re going to be able to work with you and sell your sell your stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:09

Yeah, yeah, that’s a I think that’s very important reality Chuck, because sometimes it’s even local galleries who like, do like much more to like, sell an artist work, because in the end, it isn’t even, like, the notoriety of the gallery. Or, like you said, like, Oh, my dream gallery, because they have my heroes in it. Like, yeah. But like, you know, sometimes it’s those big galleries that might not have enough, like, room in their roster to add another person. Or, like you said, they don’t resonate, or they can be your heroes, but what if your style is entirely different and just doesn’t fit in with a gallery as well. Like, there are so also, so many factors. So I think, yeah, that’s a very honest reality check right there. And I think that that also goes to show that it’s not surprising to be, like, rejected by galleries time and time again for that reason, because like, Oh, we don’t have space. Your work doesn’t resonate. Sometimes it’s even just a question of, like, Oh, you’re too early in your career, or your price range isn’t in our price range. Like, oftentimes it’s like, no, we’re more expensive than that, and we don’t want to carry someone I I’ve heard that that doesn’t have that range yet, right? So there’s, like, a lot that goes in there. And also, you know, the galleries take a risk when they take on an artist, because, especially when it’s an early career artist, like, well, we don’t know if you sold anything yet, or, you know, all these things, because it is dealing with another business. And, I mean, there are a lot of caveats also as well that go with galleries. Like, Okay, what if, like, five years down the line, I decide to switch things up, and I’m no longer really painting the same thing that they decided to take me on for what then, right? That’s like the conversation that then has to begin with the gallery of whether or not you’ll continue with them, they’ll give you the opportunity to try out this new avenue, which is very natural for a lot of artists to, you know, pursue something else, or do you keep painting these things for this one gallery, but maybe pursue a different one for this other subject matter? I mean, there’s a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah. Oh man. But then I also wanted to ask you, do you have any advice for someone out there who’s listening, who wants to become a full time artist?

Emma Kalff: 1:02:29

Yeah, my advice would be to, I think if you spend an hour on your craft, like whatever art that you’re making, spend an hour on the business side. So if you spend a day in the studio, spend the next day, you know, marketing and on your computer and, like, researching that sort of stuff like that has really helped me to make a balance of it, because I think it’s really easy to get sucked into one side or the other, of like, oh, I have to market myself super hard, and then you’re not painting, or you’re not, you know, in the studio, or it can go the other way too, where you’re like, Oh, I just like, don’t want to email Today, and I’m just gonna, but it’s really helped me to have that, like, sort of one to one balance. And I think over time, if you, if you really stick to that, like, it’s almost like a mathematical certainty that you will get somewhere. And like, you diversify your your avenues, and you just keep on chipping away on it, you’ll get somewhere.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:48

Absolutely, yeah, little by little. It’s a little by little stuff. But I love that you emphasize you know that balancing both aspects, because it really is, I mean, very difficult to make it anywhere as an artist, if all you have is paintings and you don’t have the wherewithal to know how to do something with them, it can be a challenge. So yeah, having that balance and even the other way around, some people are, like, heavy on the business, but then not enough on the like, figuring out what they’re even painting side. So it’s very good, very great advice. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?

Emma Kalff: 1:04:29

Yeah, just my newsletter. If you want. I can give you the link to my Patreon. Oh, that’s helpful, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, I try to keep it super affordable, and it’s just, you know, two, two, like, really quick, easy lessons a month that’ll help you with your basic skills as a painter. And, yeah, that show that I have coming up, I’ll give you the link to my newsletter so people can check that out.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:59

Awesome. Perfect. And then where can people see more of your work?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:04

So I’m on Instagram a lot. My handle is Emma, call, K, a, l, F, F, and yeah, I’m represented by a band gallery in Denver, and I also work with milk Moon gallery in Telluride and 33 contemporary in Florida. So those are kind of my three that I’m where I have work.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:32

Yeah, cool. And then, what is your website?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:36

My website is just my name. It’s Emma cough.com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:40

yeah, awesome, yeah. Well, likewise, yes, and I will add all of your links also. Yeah, cool, sweet. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much, Emma for the conversation. I definitely have a lot of food for thought, as I usually do with my interviews, but this I like the energy was very sobering but also very hopeful. So I appreciate that.

Emma Kalff: 1:06:07

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:15

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcasts Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

When Math Isn’t Enough: AI, Authenticity, and the Missing Fifth Element

When AI first appeared several years ago, I thought that, over time, it would become increasingly difficult to distinguish between AI-generated and human-generated content.

Surprisingly, time shows that it is true and untrue at the same time.

It becomes harder to tell the difference only when we try to analyze what we see with our minds. When we rely solely on the intellect, we often miss it.

But when we rely on our guts, we rarely err. When we look at AI-generated content, we feel in our guts that something is off.

There is a curious psychological phenomenon we all share called the “uncanny valley.” Coined by roboticist Masahiro Mori in 1970, it describes a psychological phenomenon where human-like objects (robots, CGI, dolls) that appear almost, but not quite human, elicit feelings of eeriness, revulsion, or discomfort.

Most explanations of the uncanny valley suggest that the “dip” in affinity occurs when something looks nearly human but contains subtle imperfections. I would say the opposite. The dip in affinity occurs when something looks nearly human but way too perfect.

AI-generated content is mathematically precise. And mathematics deals with models, not reality. A model resembles the real thing – but in an overly precise, idealized way. A model apple may look exactly like a real one, but it is too perfect – and, of course, inedible.

Recently, YouTube served me a couple of videos about centenarians sharing the secret to a long life. The introduction was intriguing, so I started watching.

For the first two minutes or so, I assumed it was real – the old man, the story, the setting.

Then a vague feeling arose: something “felt off.” I had never seen even a 90-year-old move or speak like that – too perfect to be real. No fidgeting, no coughing, no irregular blinking or movement.

He never paused or hesitated between words or sentences. No sniffing, no searching for words, no trailing off mid-thought, no rasp or tremor in the voice.

His features were perfectly symmetrical.

His speech was flawlessly paced, each word evenly spaced – something a real person would rarely do unless highly trained in public speaking.

Even the background looked authentic, yet somehow artificial – too precise, too model-like.

I stopped the video. It immediately lost its appeal. Why would I listen to machine-generated life advice?

Scrolling through the comments, I saw the same reaction repeated: “It’s AI.”

What is this feeling we experience when something looks real but feels off? The mind cannot go beyond mathematics; the gut can.

It perceives what lies beyond the mathematical – the creative Spirit.

When we look at a real 100-year-old, we sense that living Spirit moving through him in unpredictable, imperfect ways: in the pauses, the sniffing, the blinking, the coughing, the small gestures.

A model cannot capture the living Spirit – that is why it feels lifeless. A mathematically generated reality does not nourish. Only what is alive can nourish the soul.

And the Spirit dwells in imperfect vessels. It hovers over the formless and brings it into living order:

“Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” – Genesis 1:2

We cannot contain or predict the Spirit. It does not fit into mathematical precision. It moves over the formless and brings it to life in the moment. It is the missing “fifth element” – the force that binds all things together.

That’s why recent data shows that AI gradually erodes trust between brands and people.

According to Forbes, about 55% of audiences feel uncomfortable with AI-generated content, especially in advertising and media.

Leave a comment

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Subscribe to Hello, Writer!

With all the hype and fear surrounding AI, the piece below is a breath of encouragement for us artists because her article uncovers and explains detailed studies that have shown what AI actually can and cannot do and, it turns out, well, as we suspected, AI struggles with true creativity and there is no path, even with unlimited resources, for the AI companies to solve this challenge. In other words, true creativity is still reserved for human beings. However, that doesn’t mean you don’t need to up your game…as you’ll see in Linda’s excellent essay below.

This post, The only thing human writers can do that AI can never learn from us, originally appeared on Hello Writer! here.

This post will be locked after three days but you will still be able to read the original on Linda’s substack here.

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To end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter, and sculptor living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary-focused art school to then find classical, atelier-based training in Florence. Matthew explains how Old Masters like Titian, Van Dyck, Rembrandt, and Velázquez shaped his devotion to painting from life, Baroque optical effects, and the idea of following their principles—especially observation of nature—rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should “go cold turkey” from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls “art zoos” (museums stripped of original context). Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture—sight-size work from life, historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting, and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character—as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time. Underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes: the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong “Odyssey”, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today, and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces.

Matthew’s FASO site:
matthewjamescollins.com/

Matthew’s Social Media:
instagram.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/
facebook.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/

Matthew’s Articles:
Historical Approaches for Contemporary Portrait Practice
Dancing Faun of Pompeii: Removed From Habitat, Out of Context

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Transcript:

Matthew James Collins: 0:00

This idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then, as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate metaphor of the artist is we’re found in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:28

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights to end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter and sculptor, living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary, focused art school to then find classical Atelier based training in Florence. Matthew explains how old masters like Titian Van Dyck, Rembrandt and Velasquez shaped his devotion to painting, from life Baroque optical effects and the idea of following their principles, especially observation of nature, rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should go cold turkey from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls art zoos, which are museums stripped of original context. Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture side size work from life historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character, as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes, the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong Odyssey, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces. Welcome Matthew to the FASO podcast. How are you today? Hello.

Matthew James Collins: 2:29

No, I’m doing well. Thank you, Laura. Thank you for having me here. And it’s I’m doing well. It’s a sunny day in Florence, so it’s always nice. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Oh, I’m so excited to have you too, because, of course, I also studied in Florence, and it is such a beautiful city, and your work is gorgeous. I adore the poeticism of your sculptures, your portraits, and I love when someone is also trying to maintain this beautiful classical skill that we, you know, the torch that we are trying to maintain as artists, which is, you know the lessons that we’ve learned from our predecessors, you know the old masters, everyone in between who is trying to keep this art alive. So I appreciate that very much.

Matthew James Collins: 3:16

No thank you. And that’s why, when a fellow artist gives you a compliment like that, tell you to not be happy, because that’s we. We paint. Probably we make work, works of art for everybody. But if other artists appreciate that’s a little bit something special in it, in pew, they say in Italian.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:30

Additionally, yes, yeah, totally. And also because, I mean, sometimes it feels like, I don’t know if maybe you relate to this, but sometimes we make our work, whether it’s a sculpture, sculpture or painting, and sometimes we’re like, oh, this is, you know, I really love this. But then when other people see it as well, it feels much more like, ah, validation for all this hard work that I’ve been putting into this craft, and that also is very fulfilling. No, definitely,

Matthew James Collins: 3:59

and we don’t, maybe don’t get that validation as much as we’d like. So people, you spend months working on a work of art, and they go, that’s nice. And you’re like, Oh no, but Oh, that’s nice. The best work of art grows on people with time. I think,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:14

yes, yeah, I agree. And it’s it. I think also, like some works of art are just, they have a bit of, like a more of like a softer voice. They don’t have to, you know, be impactful in your face. Sometimes it could be more of, like a calm, quiet sort of contemplation that I think a lot of people hopefully are leaning more towards today because of the crazy revolution of the internet that’s been happening. So I think there’s going to be more appreciation for your type of work as well. Oh, well, I

Matthew James Collins: 4:49

hope so. Thanks. That’s I even see it in Italy. It’s a even in a culture surrounded by beautiful things, they tend to not be as sensitive to the figurative arts as we would like. That’s the so I do most of my work outside of Italy. In fact, they do in France or Spain or the states.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:07

So yeah, that’s the complexity of the markets as well. Not all markets are receptive to specific types of art. I mean, some countries are definitely much more inclined to prefer abstract other places might prefer, especially like western United States level, Western art, which is more towards realism, plein air is loved, I think almost everywhere, yeah, but yeah. So I think it’s awesome that you’re maintaining this craft alive as well. Yes. And then, before we dive into more, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Matthew James Collins: 5:46

Sure. Well, I’m from a town near Chicago, Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago. Grew up there, and obviously my well, not obviously, my parents are artists too. My father’s an architect, my mother’s a writer. And so at Oak Park is very kind of cultural suburb of Chicago as well, too. And so kind of grew up in a creative environment. And so I’ve always went to the museums. We go to Chicago Art Institute all the time. And that was kind of my place where I was introduced to art in first hand as well, too, which I think is really important as well. And that’s where many people don’t have the option to see art. We see art through images on phones and computer screens now, but it’s not the same as seeing works of art in person as well, too. And so and then. But as we all know, this, art isn’t really in let’s say that puritanical culture the practical nature of American culture, it’s about making a living, and so art isn’t seen as very serious way of making a living. So it’s seen as a luxury instead of a necessity. And so obviously, how I became went and started studying art and then didn’t find the right teachers, and obviously, eventually went to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago after high school, and then got a degree in art history. Because when I was there at the school art institute Chicago, which is a wonderful school, they definitely contemporary, let’s say University educations have a certain kind of now, less so than 3040, years ago, in slant towards a certain ideology of art and what its art should be, and it didn’t quite match with my connection of what I thought art should be, which was what I saw in the museum. So it was contemporary, conceptual and other things as well, too. And it those kind of works didn’t quite speak to me the way I when I went to the Art Institute, and I would see everything from El Greco to Sargent to Rembrandt and those kind of just the way these materials were transformed. In oil and in marble, there’s hearing powers, and then there’s Rodin. There’s other sculptures as well too, which kind of inspired me a lot as well. So those kind of a we’re kind of drawn to those things for their beauty. And then obviously I wanted to try to kind of find out how to make those things as well too. And so that’s where I started working and studying. And then eventually found everyone, we all find our own special way to build our skills as well too, and do other things as well, and following your kind of dreams as well. So I kind of dropped out of the School of the Art Institute in that sense. And then I got a degree in art history so I could learn more about these things that inspired me, these objects, paintings and sculptures and buildings. My father being an architect as well, too. And then started my studies on my own with different painters and sculptors as well. So eventually coming to Florence. So I came to Florence in 1994 and that was before the internet. That’s when you just, I just heard word of mouth studying with the paintress in Chicago, and she suggests, well, you already studied. I taught you all I could. So why don’t you go to Florence and study and so, and then I wrote a couple letters, and then I got a couple responses, and they just had, you know, brochures, which they don’t even have brochures anymore, they send in the mail. And then you just kind of got those, like, made a phone call, and then ended up going to the Cecil atelier in Florence so and I studied there for a couple years painting. So that was a wonderful experience where I learned a lot. Is this idea of painting from life, and this idea of building skills through repetition and building your eye based on 19th century French Atelier system as well, too. So, but Florence, back then was a little bit it’s now this. These schools have grown, and they’ve become very much larger and much more, they say, institutionalized. But back then it was, was a couple artists, and there was Charles Cecil and Daniel graves that were just teaching young artists what they knew. Then there’s Richard Saren as well. And then there’s John Angel. So it was a very kind of an interesting and wonderful environment back then, and it was cheaper, so it was easier to live so but so no, it was a wonderful way to learn, especially in a city full of art. So we know Florence. Is Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci the Renaissance and this kind of rebirth in, let’s say, figurative art that happened in the late 1300s 1400 and that’s where it was kind of a re living that kind of experience in the 90s in Florence as well, too. So it was kind of a wonderful experience. So Oh

Laura Arango Baier: 10:21

yeah, that sounds awesome. I mean, I definitely miss that aspect of Florence, the fact that, you know, you walk down one block and you’ll see beautiful buildings, a sculpture in the corner, just this attention to detail throughout the city that just it’s very magical. I think it’s one of those places that, if anyone has that, if anyone has the luck and privilege to be able to go study there, it’s, you know, one of the best places to really immerse yourself in art and in culture, at least in the medieval or Renaissance, also culture, because that’s Florence, in a nutshell. But yeah. And I love also that you mentioned how things have evolved over the years. Because I’ve also heard many artists who studied, you know, in colleges before the 90s, that they did experience this like, oh, well, I want to learn how to actually, you know, draw or paint, kind of like the old masters, but the emphasis wasn’t quite there at that time. It was much more the contemporary of anything. I have heard a lot of artists say that their teachers would say, oh, realism is dead, which a lot of people thought that at the time. So it’s a little bit unfortunate, but it’s wonderful that you know people like Cecil and you know, the schools that have happened in Florence have been so focused on trying to revive this, well, French academic style of, yeah,

Matthew James Collins: 11:53

and it was then, I guess back then, it wasn’t even even successful, wasn’t it was not as French academic that was The kind of the structure, because of this idea of an atelier, where you’d have a group of students working, and then the head teacher would come by a couple days a week, and then you’d have assistant teachers teaching as well too. So it was kind of learning by doing and so and then obviously, not obviously, of course. But then it was this idea of obviously, that was a system that kind of came from the French Academy, a French the French Atelier system, not the academy in France. So it would be private painters studios in Paris, like Carlos Duran who taught Sargent, they’d have their own Bona had their own painting studios. So it’s definitely more intimate than, let’s say, an academy, and that’s where the teacher could transmit certain ideology, not just ideology, share visions of what art could be. And so it was more, instead of French academic masters, is more ideas of when I was there in the 90s, was more Velasquez, Van Dyke, Rubens Titian. So it was this idea of looking towards the art, of looking at the art around us, and trying to incorporate that into our practice too. And then even Sargent, when I was studying their 90s, their sergeant was always important, but wasn’t really the main focus. Let’s say that’s because I was, I’m inspired by Baroque painting so and when I see I think broke painting is maybe one of the highest points of, let’s say, where the eye and the hand and then the individual expression of the artist kind of came through. So that’s where the broke air for me, is one of the best. So because you can’t have this, because you have the Rembrandt, you have a Velasquez, Van Dyke, Guido Reni, all at the same time, same color, same brushes, same everything. And look at such a wide variety of expression too. We’re in the 19th century. It all came closer together. So I mean, if you look at Rembrandt and you look at Van Dyke, you can’t see two way, grossly different ways of approaching painting, but they’re still wonderfully beautiful in their personal expression. And that’s kind of what we all become artists to express ourselves and find our own personal voice. And so that’s where that’s why the bro kind of really attracted me was this variety of expression,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:04

yes, yes. I totally agree with that. And I think probably in part, why the 19th century and then onward, I would say even, yeah, yeah, 19th century. I feel like one of the biggest shifts, of course, was, you know, the camera happening. Because, you know, like, as we know, Bouguereau did use photographs for his paintings as well. And Bouguereau, of course, came he was much more important in the when I was studying in Italy, he was one of the big names going around. Everyone’s talking about Bouguereau, everyone’s talking about Sargent. By that point, I think Sargent was one of the big ones. But I feel very much like you I, you know, my heroes are definitely, you know, like Titian and Van Dyke. Like Van Dyke especially, who was my first love. Like I saw his work when I took art history, and I was like, Oh, this is incredible. His portrait that he painted when he was 13 years old. How sure. Okay, it’s amazing, but yeah. And actually, what you just mentioned also leads me to a quote that you mentioned in your article on realism today, which I will link also in the show notes for some of our readers or for some people who want to go check it out, I totally recommend it. And the quote is, instead of treat, instead of treading in the Old Masters footsteps, Endeavor only to keep the same road. Do you mind telling us

Matthew James Collins: 15:28

some more? That was from, I think that’s from Reynolds. Joshua, Reynolds, and he’s what they he was the wonderful portrait painter, and he was obviously profoundly inspired by Van Dyke. Van Dyke was his. I think first love is all portrait painters. They should be the first love is Van Dyck. But he and his lectures, his discourses on art, which were lectures towards to his students at the Royal Academy. And he was, in some ways, just echoing what Leonardo said, too. So this is where he was saying, we look to the old masters because they inspire us, but the old masters look towards nature and so, and that’s where art, in many periods of art history, art comes from art and then. But art is very derivative. It just comes from art. So just copying art doesn’t create, let’s say, interesting and profound art as well, too. That’s where he goes, That’s so he said, we should follow the principles that they did by looking at nature and then apply them. Employ the language, which is the visual language of art, in a personal way too, but that’s also being well versed in the Old Masters too. This is where the idea of making the grand tour to see paintings in person, which is that’s where everyone who comes to Florence can has the opportunity to do that. And even Reynolds came to Italy to study wonderful examples of Titian. Because obviously Van Dyke, even Van Dyke, came to Italy to study Titian. So Titian is the godfather of, let’s say, portrait painting and oil painting. He kind of made it all. He was the first he did, the first full length portrait. He did portraits life size. He did lots of things that we all kind of take for granted, but he kind of worked those problems up. Because in the end, we make objects, and we need to figure out how to make those things. And that’s the that’s where working with another artist and having a direct dialog with someone who’s more experience is we try to do it on ourselves, but you can, but it’s it’s hard. That’s where creating dialog with other artists is important at every stage of your life. Then that’s where, because of art is lonely, but also in just learning and learning how to do things is and we as artists, we love to talk shops, no colors, brushes, all these other things as well too. So, but he was also even Leonardo says nature is the true Master too. So Leonardo talks about and that goes back to Neil Leonardo’s teacher, Verrocchio, and Andrea Verrocchio is a really important, Pivotal artist for the Renaissance, because he was the one that almost not single handedly, but started drawing from life in the studio. So instead of just copying art from the past and then just redoing it a little bit more refined, like that’s what the late Gothic and international Gothic style is. It was this idea of looking towards nature. They were looking at classical works, like classical sculptures. That’s what influenced them. But then they also started looking towards nature as well too. So it was in verocchio studio where they started doing life studies of each other, drapery studies. And so that’s where Leonardo, writing that down in his notebooks kind of transformed how we see art as well, too, because we’re kind of following it as well. That’s we see the the true form of things too. Because obviously when we look at art and look at, let’s say classical art, I mean in Greek and Roman art, it is this beautiful, naturalistic expression of the human figure, but it is kind of a It’s not stylized, but there’s a way they made them too. So, but in just copying the surface of what those sculptures are, we don’t understand the principles that the artists use to create and conceive them and then express something as well, too. And so that’s kind of, I think that’s lifelong journey for let’s say you want to say classical artist is to try to understand the language, and then in understanding the language, which is proportion and how different things relate to each other, then express that in our, let’s say, chosen material.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:10

So, yes, and that is a lot. It is so much because, you know, we look towards the old masters because they it’s almost like they have this. And I think a lot of students also see it as like, oh, they have the magic formula. But of course, their magic formula is literally just experience and observations, extreme observation of nature. But even then, you know, you can, like you said, there’s nothing better than going to a real painting and observing it and just seeing how did this painter describe this person, or describe the shape of their cheek, or describe how the hands were, which Van Dyck, of course, has his very specific hands from his very specific hand model. So there. Are. It’s like, it’s almost like writing, right, where an author might describe a character in a particular way, or a scene in a particular way, and another one would do it in a different way. But you’re still trying to decipher, ah, what are they looking at? What are they gathering from this image that they’re, you know, visualizing, like, what is that? And then from there, you kind of have to figure it out on your own as well, through, like you said, practice process, observation and repeat and and then figuring out, okay, what are the magic proportions that make something look beautiful? Because then that’s the next thing. So it’s such a deep well of knowledge that you gain as an artist, and it feels like it never ends. You know?

Matthew James Collins: 20:47

No, definitely. And that’s where I guess. And then also the figurative adds the idea of subject matter and other things as well too. And then in addition, it’s the fluency of the material becomes the most important thing. And it’s certainly not most important thing. It’s a it’s how you use your materials as well too. So if you look at Rembrandt, how he created, how paint becomes something more. It becomes life, but it becomes these beautiful colors and impastos, and they all kind of melt together. And even Van Dyck does it as well, too, in a more subtle and delicate way, too. So it’s the fluency of the language using certain materials. And the greatest artists always had that kind of connection with their materials as well, too. And that’s where the I guess, we tend to specialize depending on what we do, because it takes a while to become fluent in these materials and then expand and then fluent, then in terms of the language as well, too. So Titian kind of described paintings as poems. I’d see that as well. I think that’s maybe the perfect way, because they’re not, we’re not writing novels. When things become a little bit too narrative in a painting, it becomes, it’s not living to its full potential. And so, and then it’s how you say something is as important as what you’re saying. And that’s what makes, I think, painting so suggestive and eternal in a certain way.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:59

So, yeah, and that also reminds me of that rule that even the writing has, which is, show, don’t tell. And it’s so similar in painting as well. Because, of course, you can, you can go the Audubon style and like, really get into the nitty gritty of painting something exactly as it is, or you can find a way to use, like you said, your knowledge of medium, to describe it in a more interpretive way that gets closer to your own perception of this thing, while also maintaining the integrity of what it is which is such a challenging little area to reach. You know,

Matthew James Collins: 22:40

yeah, and that’s where, I guess the optical comes out in the broker the optical. So this idea of look at a Velazquez and then the Bruce Lee Sergeant looks at that as well, our Frans halls and the and even Rembrandt as well too. We’re up close. These paintings all kind of come together. They’re just these globs of different color pigments on a canvas with different thicknesses and translucencies, but then you step back and they become something more than what they they seem to be up close. And so we see there’s the kind of the the idea of distance giving order to chaos and expression as well too. And I think that’s a very strong, powerful metaphor that goes through all the arts as well too. That’s it. And it’s at this for art can be also there it’s making the metaphor with music is very valid as well, too, this idea of notes and then how they come together to create something much more rich and deep than just the notes themselves, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:31

Yes, yeah. And then the order of the notes also provides mood, definitely, you know, yeah, whether you have, like, you know, the sad or happy music, which is minor and major. But yeah, it’s exactly that I feel like with painting, we have also such a wide range as well of things to play with with like color value, focus, contrast edges, which is it can it can be a lot, which I think is also why it’s so wonderful to see all the different ways that artists have interpreted the same medium. I think what’s interesting as well, because you brought up, you know, the way that the Baroque were interpreting the optical I find also interesting that today we are, we’ve been so influenced by the camera, right? I mean, of course, it started in the 1860s but we are even more so influenced by the camera because now it’s so readily accessible to everyone from their phone. So I have a couple questions attached to that. So if someone were to want to learn from the, you know, old masters, or try to learn to paint the traditional way? How would you say that they should completely reset their brain away from the camera?

Matthew James Collins: 24:49

Ah, that’s a that’s a great question, and that’s the response to that, because becoming more and more difficult to do that. That meaning. So when I was I would say the best way to just kind of go cold turkey and not look at images and start painting from life, and just paint directly from life and then doing so what happens is the familiarity painting from life every day. And I had the blessing to be able to do that while I was here in Florence, in my own work as well too, is when you just when we start looking at something long enough, and that’s the problem, we don’t have enough time anymore, right? We have all these things. We’re always rushing from one thing to another, looking at something long enough, you’ll see what we see in cameras is not what we see in real life, and that’s where people that go through the training here, and as you’ve done as well, too, you can see the human eye works differently, and that’s what’s and again, what we’re trying to do as artists, I think we all are, and only speak for myself, but we’re trying to speak to someone standing in front of our work who’s looking at it with their eyes too. And I think that’s a very so to remove the filters of the camera, move the filters of other thing, then you can that’s where the Baroque era, where they’re very sensitive how people perceive their works, and that’s why it became optical. I want to have that kind of sort of visceral experience in front of a picture as well, too. Even though we are influenced by we are influenced by photography, people are convinced the distortions they see in cameras are how we see the world, but that’s not how it is so. So this is that’s a tough question, can you eliminate the idea the photograph altogether? Maybe not. Maybe you can’t. And that even today is what kids are growing up, looking at little screens. Because obviously, in the 90s, we had a television, but you didn’t have a screen in front. You had a computer screen. Eventually there was no internet, so you had books. We looked at a lot of books, but that was already a camera looking at a picture, taking a photograph, but it was always not quite as distorted. The cameras weren’t as, let’s say, highly developed, where everything can be in the same focus as they are today, too. So technology is kind of divorcing us from a certain sense of reality, which I think is a bit of a shame. So even how we how you I mean, it’s wonderful we can talk right now, because look at your 1000 miles away. I’m right here, and we can still talk. But again, it’s not the same as seeing someone in person talking to someone in person. That’s this, and I think that’s even more so with experiencing a great work of art. And that’s where I’m getting a degree in art history in Chicago, and then living in Chicago as well too, where there’s obviously beautiful homes, beautiful places, but it’s a art wasn’t quite as central to, let’s say, say, a contemporary American way of living in my house, I was lucky. My parents had oil paintings and still lives, and they collected prints and everything as well too, but most people didn’t. And so to see art, you had to go to a museum. So this idea of an esthetic experience was confined to museums, and that’s very interesting idea as well. So, and this is where, again, coming to Florence, being able to see art in situ, because I studied everything in Slides, in art history, but then seeing in person, it was completely different. And it was almost and I guess a good example is, everyone studies in art history, the raft of Medusa by General com, no and, but when you see it in person, it’s, it’s it’s not, it’s like you never seen it before. It’s impressive when you see it that big in your book, or I see it on a screen, but when you see it in person, it’s a whole different, visceral experience. And that’s the power of art too. And you see that in Florence with the statues and the paintings and the press goes on the walls. And that’s which I would encourage, that’s experiencing things in person will help us overcome this idea the photograph as well, too, because we’re seeing things on small screens all the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 28:42

So yes, yeah, and I have a funny story about the raft of Medusa, because when I first saw it at the louver, it was bigger than my apartment in Italy. I can believe that, yeah, it’s just such a massive painting. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t imagine it, of course, from a tiny image. And when you see it, it is, I was just, this is literally bigger than the layout of my tiny apartment in Florence. And it is amazing to imagine, you know, someone working on this painting, you know, setting up the models and setting up the setting to reference from. It’s, it’s magical, because there’s just so much in the process. There’s so much time that goes into making something well, you know, just just getting it done well. And the other crazy thing that I often think about is the fact that as artists, we gain these skills that are already extremely challenging and difficult to gain, and then when you have to apply them, you’re already at the base level of like, yeah, you have the basics. Now you have to develop that even more. It feels like this never ending tantalizing mountain that you just have to keep climbing when you think you’ve read. The peak. You’re like, nope, now it’s now it’s time to actually apply these insane principles that I’ve learned into something great. And I mean, it doesn’t even have to be like, as insane as the Raft of the Medusa, because, of course, that’s a very ambitious painting. But there’s also, I think, a necessity for people to continue to make ambitious paintings anyway, because it’s inspiring to humanity. I mean, that painting has been around for a very, very long time, and it will continue to, hopefully, to be around and inspire more people to paint a painting bigger than their apartment,

Matthew James Collins: 30:37

and then the humanity in it, and then the drama, and then, and then, that’s where Italy is also a wonderful example. I mean, this Sistine Chapel by Michelangelo. So that’s another, and it’s just one of the many examples of decorative wall painting where the decorative kind of used in a derogatory term. But it’s actually it used to be seen as the highest form of painting is these large scale figure paintings, because they do kind of transform how we live in the environment which we’re observing them because we’re observing them from life, and they kind of surround us and envelop us too. So, and that’s where it can really end. That’s even, I guess, Rubens even wrote an essay on the the sublimity of scale, and so, so making things bigger. So that’s why we all talk about everyone looks at Rubens and thinks all these over exaggerated curves and other things as well too. Making things larger changes how we perceive them. So even the raft of Medusa is kind of seems cartoony, but you see it in person, it doesn’t seem cartoony at all. It seems just right. That’s those are lessons you do. You can only learn by doing, and unfortunately, in contemporary, well in, probably even before in, let’s say, an atelier system, or in any sort of learning academic school setting, it’s difficult to set up those kind of projects and do those things too. So it’s something you learn the skills. Then you just kind of have to jump in and do them, though, and you learn on the on the job.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:01

So, yeah, yeah. And, and also have some sort of economic support on the side so that you can afford to do it. Because that’s the other really tough part of like, Oh, I really want to, you know, make this incredible thing you kind of have to live below your means. And also, you know, be able to manage around economically, so that you can do it, unless someone out there is lucky enough to be wealthy and can just dedicate themselves to it, which more power to them. I hope they they can really enjoy that. But yeah, for the rest of us, it’s, it really feels like a labor of love that we just have to, like, oh, you really want to do this. Okay, you got to find ways to you will find a way to figure it out. Hopefully. Yeah, and then I find it interesting too, because the Reynolds quote also that we mentioned earlier, it’s a it’s one of those. It touches on one of the topics that I think a lot of artists think about, a lot of our listeners think about, which is the idea of the artistic voice. And you also mentioned it, how, like, you know, Van Dyke has had his way of painting with the same exact, exact pigments as Rembrandt, same exact pigments as many of the surrounding painters who were working at the time, and yet you can distinguish them personally. You know, for you, how, what? How was it? How long did you did it take for you to develop your own artistic voice?

Matthew James Collins: 33:26

Well, that’s a maybe. It’s a question. It’s a to respond to the question. It’s an answer in evolution, because we’re constantly refining and finding our voice as well too. So our voice is kind of limited to the skills that we can to use to express it, but it’s also, but it’s in, let’s say, enlarged by the culture we have behind our skills too. So I think there’s this combination between we have we’re, you can say we’re given a certain set of talent, or we build a certain set of skills to illustrate our ideas or to express them mechanically through painting or sculpting or drawing. And that’s what painting is, just drawing and color and then. But we it’s the culture behind them that enlarges them as well too. So it’s this kind of balance in between. And so the voice is everything we kind of absorb. That’s your culture, and that’s where even a artist, I think even Reynolds said, again, he said that most, the biggest crime for an artist was to be uncultured. He said, There’s a you can have all the skills in the world, but if you have no culture, and even he was a had as the hierarchy of the you know, he was a portrait painter, but he saw this idea as Dec figurative, decorative painting as being the top as well, too. But he’s like, having a culture behind you is one of the most important things for developing your own voice, I think, because then it’s just as we look at look Rembrandt, and we look at Van Dyke and we look at Titian, they kind of we they are. They become our men. Mentors, in addition to our mentors that teach us how to hold a brush and mix the color, and then through those two combinations together, something comes out as well too. So that’s kind of what I think it’s this kind of mix between these ideas as well and so but obviously, as we already mentioned before, it is just repetition and work too. And this is where I think a lot of people, there’s a kind of this idea is the art, and that’s especially in contemporary artists. The artist sits down, it’s inspired, and throws paint on a canvas, and that’s the work of art. But obviously we have something more, let’s say sophisticated, not so sophisticated, a little bit more subtle and maybe profound. And we’re searching for something ourselves, too. And so in the act of painting, we find who we are, and we find our personal voice as well. So but not looking at other paintings, that’s I see a lot of art students that they don’t they’re curious about expressing themselves, but they’re not curious about art. And I think if you all the thing, all the artists the past, we just already, we previously mentioned, without exception, they were all extremely curious about art. They and then, for one example is they all came to Italy, except for Rembrandt. Rembrandt didn’t come to Italy, but all the paintings went through Amsterdam. So he saw plenty of Italian art, but they were certainly there’s a curiosity that I think that combines all of us of looking towards and we look at Leonardo, he’s looking at art. But he says, Look, it’s a nature, this idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate, uh, metaphor of the artist is, we’re kind in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our, our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there. And so, so you never quite know your first your voice, and I guess. And I also think in today’s contemporary post World War Two art kind of, let’s say organization of culture is and that some of I had to paint, the painter in Chicago told me he’s like, you know how you become a painter? You get him at first, you get a master’s degree, you paint the same picture 25 times, and you get an art critic, and then you get a show, and then you move forward. And it’s this idea of kind of goes into consumerism and branding yourself. And so that’s, I think, the poetic, obviously, the poetic, I think, should take precedent over developing a style. That’s the whatever happens, happens. You just paint, if it’s beautiful, that you’re in the right direction. That’s another thing that. That’s what impressed me about Baroque artists, especially as well, too. You look at all of them and they went to such a each artist goes through a profound change artistically, from when they started and when they ended and so and wasn’t a planned evolution towards making things more abstract. Towards the end, they were thinking about other things, but they definitely if you look at early Van Dyke and late Van Dyke is two different paintings. You look at early Rembrandt, late Rembrandt is two different painters, almost. So today they wouldn’t be wrecked they you’re discouraged from doing that, because then you don’t have a and Velasquez is probably the best one. He’s he started a caravaggisti, super hard drawn, very beautiful, and then he ended somewhere completely different. And I think that’s Titian did the same thing. So this is where, unfortunately, don’t my advice is, don’t let, let’s say these kind of external but you should do what you want. But I don’t want these external pressures to force me to paint something or paint in a way that that’s not what I’m looking for.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:49

So, yeah, so you’re totally in agreement. Yeah, there’s just, there’s something. It’s interesting. Because, like you said, you know, trying to box yourself into because I feel like, you know, having a voice and having a style aren’t necessarily the same thing, since, I mean, you can make up a style and then, oh, I’m recognized as the person who paints eyes, or the person who paints this very specific thing. And I think the way that we develop as humans is so contrary to creating a product, right? Like we just a product implies something that rarely evolves or stays very much the same throughout. And it’s very like, you like how galleries would be like, Oh, you get exactly what we expect every time, right? Because it sells. But that’s not how humans naturally function, right? We evolve, we learn, we change. That’s how it works for most of us. And then, yeah, maybe there are some painters out there who are very happy painting the same thing over and over. There’s no hate to them, of course. But. But not all of us, you know, have that luck, right where, oh, maybe I feel like, yeah, I’ve painted enough sunsets, but I want to try this other thing, right? And it’s usually curiosity that really pulls you out, and then, oh, hopefully my gallery is okay with this, and they don’t drop me, or hopefully my gallery allows me to have the permission to explore and experiment, right? It can feel very, like I said, very contrary to how we develop as humans throughout life, yeah, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 40:36

I think that’s, that’s normal, and that’s because it, there’s kind of a and, but it’s also this idea of in contemporary world, this idea of franchising, having the same object and same idea, and this is where hopefully things will change. Whereas a work of art is an object and it is beautiful and it doesn’t have to be, it can be just a pretty still life, and it can live. Works of art can exist on so many different levels, which that’s what makes them so wonderful, and that’s and all the great works of art can function and be perceived on so many different levels, but that shouldn’t the artist does. We don’t want to be limited by the most base levels. Either. We’re always looking for something that’s a little bit more profound, and then in those simple that’s that we were talking about these contradictions in art, the in the most simple things, we find the most complex answers, and vice versa too. And so it’s just how many love stories have been written, but Romeo and Juliet, when you seen before, it’s, it doesn’t disappoint, and it’s still, it’s still profound and beautiful. That’s so it’s how it’s said as well, too, in the in the different the the verse is actually magical. So it’s and that’s goes with all the great arts as well. So the portrait is just the face, but again, it’s so much more when you put in the great artists and so and then as we, as artists, we want to get better. So we’re kind of, we have our own personal journey and our own personal journey. If we have the right culture and a good training, we can make some very beautiful things, and then we grow as well too. So that’s the and that’s kind of the which is good and but obviously, when we it’s which is good, but also, we also we also have to survive and other things as well doing. We also want to communicate to a and transmit something that I think the world needs as well. So this is where, again, painting from life, painting beautiful porches, painting things that aren’t photographic, is something I think the world kind of needs now, because we’re also doing things as well. So it’s important to do those ideas. And so, but it’s, it’s actually an act of rebellion in a certain sense, because it doesn’t make much sense monetarily, doesn’t make much sense financially, it doesn’t make much sense in terms of the same mainstream culture as well, too, and so, but again, that’s why I think maybe it’s so important. So at

Laura Arango Baier: 42:58

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But, yeah, there’s something really interesting about how paintings they take so long they take, you know, a priceless amount of time, right? Like you can’t really put a price on the experience and the lived life that you have to gain to paint something like the Raft of the Medusa, for example. That’s, you know, a price that no one could be really able to pay back. And I find that, you know, it is the antithesis of, you know, how. A lot of products are sold today. You know, they’re made to be used and discarded, or used and then broken after a certain amount of time, but paintings, they don’t really fall under that category. So I have hopes that, you know, we will remember that as humanity, that what will remain is the beautiful, handcrafted aspect of us. You know what it means to be a human, but yeah, and then the other thing that I think will always Outlast is the portrait, because it is especially like you had mentioned in one of your articles, that it is life size portraiture that is some of the most impactful to witness, because it it, it does have this uncanny feeling of you’re being observed. You’re being you know, you’re connecting with someone who’s long gone. Can you tell us a little bit about your own process with creating a portrait, and what parts of that process you recommend for people to also do so that they can improve their portraiture?

Matthew James Collins: 46:09

Oh, well, yeah, there’s that, well, there’s way, any different ways of creating portraits. And then I way that I was taught, it says so is the the site size method as well, too, which has kind of been used for lots of different applications, but it was primarily used as a portrait method to create portraits from life very quickly. And so this is where you have them canvas, right next to the side of the model. You stand back at a distance, which would be a viewing distance, which was very logical back in the Renaissance and onwards, because you have your viewers looking at the painting so and so, you could identify different kind of problems as well, in terms of proportion and drawing as well too. And so Van Dyke used the variation on that where he would occasionally put the canvas alongside and then bring the canvas back up to him as well, too. But it’s this idea of using distance to see proportions. And that’s where, just like in everything in life, the further back you get from something and you can see whether it works. And that’s where even Leonardo talks about this idea of viewing distance too. And so I kind of use this method to do life size portraiture, where you just set up the canvas alongside you stand back, and then by observing both your image and the model to scale. You can see, you can you can develop the shapes very quickly and very accurately too. So, but obviously there’s limitations, because it’s can only be, it’s a, you know, the pose has to be one viewing point. You can’t models in different, interesting dynamic poses as well, too. So that’s the beginning point as well. So this is where you can also, as I paint as well, too. Obviously, when you’re trying to learn, you have to have the model sit still, but you always want to discuss, talk with people. And then you can actually, let’s say, Delve and pull out their personality as you observe them over a long period of time too. So this is where I tend to paint portraits from life, pretty much all. And so where people pose, and they pose for several hours, and then I just kind of have a conversation, paint them. And then you, as you observe people, you see who they are. So this is where, again, working from references. It’s two dimensional, two dimensional. Three to two dimension. This three dimension observing something from life and then creating something in two dimensions, not just copying, it’s creating. And so that’s, I think, a very important opportunity, which, obviously it’s actually, it’s actually difficult to try to find people to pose, or people who are willing to pose, but once they do start posing, it’s actually quite pleasant and nice as well, too. It’s, it’s an, it’s a, not a torturous experience, so,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:42

yeah, yeah. I mean, it shouldn’t be, otherwise they won’t do it again. And then you have a half started painting, yeah, which kind of sucks, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 48:51

And then using, I use kind of a historical palette too. So because I was just inspired by the past, so you trying to use the same, I would retry to recreate the palette of what Van Dyke would use, or the British school, or even eg LeBron. And so what’s nice about the feet seat, which is the art gallery here, the gallery the feet see here in Florence, they have a self portrait section of all these artists. And they all, you know, they’re all holding their palettes, and you can see all the colors are using. So you go there not just to appreciate their their wonderful visions of themselves, these artists of the past, but you can see exactly their kind of tools of the trade as well, too. VG Lebrun, Elizabeth. VG Lebrun is one of the best portrait painters the 18th century, and she has a fantastic one self portrait in the Uffizi with all the colors she uses and how they organize them. So I did a lot of research art historically on different approaches to creating portraits as well too. And that was a really formative experience as well, too. And in addition to copying things as well. So I cop, I spent two years copying in the Art Institute when I was a student there as well, too. So this idea of copying, but also reading first person sources to try to find out the kind of mediums they use, the kind of oils they use. Used, and again, I would agree with you, if there’s no like magic medium, but trying different things out and trying to kind of understand what kind of that’s been. Finding Your voice is finding your technique. And finding your technique is experiment, experimenting with different materials where you can get the most beautiful image you can using the materials that are available to you by choice too. You choose. So some people paint thickly, some people paint thinly. I think the best painters do both. So you do so, and that’s a and then it’s just painting from life. And then if you can’t have the time to be able to work on things too. Again, this is where we see things through social media now. And then you see these. It seems like instantaneous works of art, but it takes, it takes a long time to make a nice portrait too, and again, and it’s easy, and that’s where we mentioned earlier about the workshop culture too. Is this idea, I can paint a portrait in two sittings. I can paint a portrait in a sitting. Well, that’s usually not the best portraits, either. So this idea of spending time and then finishing a painting takes a lot longer than starting one, and that’s what’s kind of that’s where the art and the beauty comes in as well, too. So in the general studio practice, I use pretty much what a lot of painters use today in terms of painting from life, but I think distance is really important, being able to stand back and seeing things from a distance. And obviously, because I’m going for optical ideas, but I think that’s also in terms of practical sense that even Leonardo talks about standing back and then using a mirror to see your shapes. BG, Lebrun talks about it. So there’s plenty of sources out there how to improve your portrait painting, but again, it’s again, the more you observe from life, the more you see things that you would not see in a photograph, too. And you see atmosphere through edges. You see create impact through accents and highlights and dark accents as well, too. And so this is where this idea of having the time to start creating paintings from life, especially having people pose, is a really important, I think idea observing people under natural light, if possible, or diffused light, so we can see those edges as well too. So again, in my practice, I try to create in nature what I want to achieve in my painting. So using natural soft lighting, using a certain kind of pose, organizing the lighting the way I want to and so then, in addition to that, using a knowledge of construction to explain the form which is not quite obvious, or to emphasize certain things as well, too, that should have a psychological impact at the end, and a mode of impact as well. So, so I say, yeah, so it’s uh, but also designing things too. You also designing the portrait, I think is the most important thing. So this is where, that’s where looking at paintings will help you make a better portraits and looking and so. And I guess one of the Van Dyke is fantastic, is a and he uses a variety of poses as well too. But no one is quite as, let’s say, creative in poses, as Sergeant. Sergeant. If you look at sergeant, he creates. He has so many different poses and dynamic poses. They tend it is inspiring to see his portraiture and how he can play spaces and put lightings on them to create something that’s quite that brings out the personality of the person.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:16

Yes, yeah. And that also just reminded me, because you mentioned, you know, looking at other painters. That reminds me also of the quote, you know, there’s nothing new under the sun, sure. So there’s no need to reinvent the wheel and try to come up with things when it was probably already done by an old master or another painter, and you can observe how they did it. And you know, you know, create something derivative of that, or try to understand the portrait that you’re doing while also observing one in a similar situation, which is something that I was doing. You know, when I was trying to teach myself some more portraiture outside of class, I would try to find a painting that was in a similar pose to one that I wanted to paint, and then that way, it’s a lot easier to like look at how this specific painter described the cheekbone, or how they describe the shadow under the eye, in the in the, you know, beneath the eyebrows, or the shadow beneath the nose, how they described the chroma of the nostrils or the area around the nostrils. Okay, like, how did they do that? How do they do this without exaggerating? Because that’s the other very typical thing that I think we all go through when we’re starting out, is we tend to we see color and we just exaggerate it, which is also something you learn over time, that gray is your best friend, or low chroma versions, or lower Chroma versions of most colors are much, much nicer to the eye and having little pops here and there. But of course, you learn this through observation and through looking at the old masters and just trying it a million times as well.

Matthew James Collins: 54:59

No, I. I agree. I think that’s where the it’s that is kind of contemporary paint is where you just over hit the color, and then you have to knock it down where it was in the past. It was a little bit. It was the opposite, where you have dead coloring, and then you build up to that. And then when you start looking at the paintings, and I mean, when you see a Titian in real life, it doesn’t disappoint in terms of color, and that’s where, and that’s and Van Dyke especially, that’s where. So these, there’s a sensitivity to color which is quite much more harmonious than that’s even a Monet or you go to late Impressionist paintings well too. There’s a subtlety in those colors which are quite admirable. And then also colorful too. They’re not, they don’t they’re not boring. And so this is where. And again, I would, I think that’s a great advice, too. And I did the same thing. You always want your learning. You kind of find heroes, and you’re kind of development, and you say, Oh, gee, Van Dyke, set up a model like this. I’m gonna set up a model like this and see what happens. And so that think that’s the perfect way to start entering as because we as artists, we have to do it so we understand it. Just talking about is one that is not enough. So it’s in creating something, then we can understand all the intricacies of the construction and application and other things as well too. And at the same time, understand the visual sensibility and language as well too. So in copying old master pictures, I was copying them to understand technique, but then also you become more sensitive to the visual language as well, too. So the only thing that’s new under the sun is us. No, there’s never been you or me before, and we’re unique. And so when we look at the world around us and bring things in, and then we kind of put something out, it becomes unique if we are, I think, honestly and sincere, sincerely using the visual language to its fullest, and that’s where, and that’s where our own personal interests and formations and what you do helps develop our culture. And that’s where the culture comes to the voice, and that’s where it comes out as well, as well. So we kind of, that’s what we need to do. So we don’t, and that’s, again, it is this idea of in contemporary art culture too. It’s this like, Oh, his innovative technique of doing this. And that’s very it’s like, you have to create, like, a brand new, improved formula. It’s like, well, no, I’m not making a new laundry detergent. I’m just, I’m trying to make a beautiful painting. So, and this is where we just use the same these. We don’t have to create something new, but what we create is new, and that’s where, again, what we’re doing is reinforcing how special we are as individuals, instead of just a part of an economic system or part of a commercial system, which we are because we have to, that’s how the world works. But again, I think we’re so much more, and that’s why art is important. It goes back to that we’re trying to through our personal expression of ourselves, people can experience their individuality, and that’s maybe what art should be doing as well, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:54

Yes, that is very, very inspiring. Because, of course, it goes from like, okay, we’re part of this collective thing, but then we’re also, like this tiny piece of it, kind of like, you know, like a loop, you know, like you need the collective to individuate. Because, like Alan Watts, one of my favorite philosophers, he used to say that finding yourself or like, you know, finding out who you are is very difficult. You can only do it through the other because it’s like trying to touch the tip of your finger with the same tip. It’s Wow. You can’t really do that. So exploring the solve has to be through also observing your surroundings and participating, like you said, like in culture, and learning about it and learning about, okay, well, this isn’t what I am, but this might be what I think I am. And then, you know, that’s why I think, also, like you said earlier, that the practice of painting is truly the practice of finding out who you are, which that’s a whole, whole other, very deep, deep well, that you just kind of experience as you do it as well. But yeah, and then I also wanted to ask you, because you also sent me another very interesting article, which I link, and you talk about the museums being almost like an art Zoo. Do you mind elaborating a little bit

Matthew James Collins: 59:23

on that? Sure, yeah, because I did an article for the epic times, which is a new was it New York newspaper, and it was a series called Art speak. So I wrote a series of articles. They asked me about a work, about individual works of art, and then just talk about them. And so in that article, where I talked about art zoos. It was really about art in context. And so it was the fawn, the dancing fawn of Pompe, which is this beautiful little bronze sculpture that’s in the archeological museum there, and so and so it was just talking about that sculpture in particular. But then again, it kind of relates to my whole experience of growing up. In the Midwest, which was in Chicago, being a cultural city, and living in Oak Park, which is a cultivated sort of suburb, and having an artistic family, snuts, and then having a reference point for a big, let’s say important art was the museum too. And so you go there it goes on this esthetic experience that would be reserved for the museum. But then, as you you can see, and so in that article, I was trying to explore the importance of context for what works of art. So a lot of the works we go to museums now, and museums were kind of a phenomenon that kind of grew at 18th century, 19th century, especially the Archeological Museum in Naples. And what kind of really struck me as that, because it’s a wonderful little sculpture that was in a in one of the houses of Pompe, and it was a garden sculpture. But if you look at it, it’s just a masterpiece and an anatomy and this little pond that’s dancing, and so a beautiful sculpture. And what’s interesting Kenneth Clark, sir. Kenneth Clark, in his book The nude, talks about and he kind of points it out as being a an example of the static and the deadness of classical sculpture in terms of kind of something frozen in time, and talking about that in his overall arc of explaining the nude, the elevation of the evolution of the nude in Western Art, and that kind of something hit me is that didn’t quite explain what that sculpture was. Because if you go to Pompeii and you see these houses which were highly decorated with frescoes everywhere, and then there, obviously these houses were like full of people. And this is where, living in Italy, there’s a more there’s a very active social life. And then everything’s kind of, you go into churches, they’re packed with decoration. There’s living in Florence. You see, there’s art everywhere. Art was a in the ancient world, it was as well, too. Art was an integral part of civic life, private life and sacred life, and everywhere. So it was. Art wasn’t something reserved for a museum and so and so talking about and when you look at the fawn in the museum, the archeological museum Naples, you can kind of see what he was saying wasn’t completely wrong. It’s kind of frozen into a little, little fawn frozen in a glass box. But if you imagine in the middle of a fountain with the colorful frescoes and the music and people living their lives around it, then it’s not it’s not frozen anymore. It’s living. And that’s where and a lot of the art we see in museums, most of almost 90 more than 90% was meant to be seen in houses or churches or civic buildings, and they had an other life. And so this is when you see something that’s natural habitat. That’s when you can truly understand what the work of art is, and you can comment on it so and then when you see it in that sense, that’s the fawn isn’t frozen, but it’s dancing within this kind of the life of a house, of a household with families and children and colorful walls and other things as well too, and water and sun and and gardens. And that’s that’s where I did when you go to a museum and they are and I love museums, and I spent too much time, not too much time. You never spend much time. And I love going to museums because, like visiting friends, but you can see that there. When you see altar pieces, you see other paintings. They weren’t meant to be there. They were meant to be somewhere else. And so in my kind of quest to try to figure out, why do those pictures look the way they did? You kind of also have to understand the context in which they were made. And so when we look at when talking this again, it goes back to Baroque painting, when they were thinking about the optical effects. It wasn’t because it was supposed to be in some little room. It was supposed to be in a big room. They usually artists would design things, and they had to be maybe the blessing, the benefit, but also the challenge to design things on commissions for specific spaces. And they took that into consideration when they were creating those works of art. So I was kind of, I’m curious of why would certain pictures be a certain way? Because they would optically correct them so they could look certain, look in a certain way, in a certain wall, on a certain certain lighting as well too, and that’s very obvious in religious paintings as well. So we see, when you see sacred art, you know, paintings in museums, they weren’t meant to be there. They’re meant to be in other spaces. So, and that’s kind of a, I think, a missing link in a lot of art today is we don’t make it for a specific context. And that’s not that’s that’s beyond our control. So unfortunately, so that’s where I kind of see them as art zoos. They see these poor paintings kind of stuck there, where they were meant to be in someone’s home, or meant to be they meant to be lived with every day. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s kind of like a world that’s my life mission is we just need more art on everybody’s walls and everyone’s house, so you can you live with art every day. And I think that’s another lesson of being a blessing. Living in Italy is you see that everywhere art, especially Florence, and even more so than other cities, Florence, there’s art everywhere. And so everywhere, and that’s where it’s on the street corners and the adic was these kind of little altar pieces on every corner. There’s a Madonna and child or a saint, there’s statues, there’s and then there’s. Decorated doorways. There’s door knockers. And so every part of our life is accompanied by art. And so we don’t have to go visit. And so when you have to go visit something that’s in a little room where it’s not supposed to be, that’s kind of sad, I think it’s kind of that’s why it becomes a zoo, because we don’t quite understand what they are. You don’t see seeing a tiger in a zoo is not like seeing a Tiger in the Jungle, and then you understand why the tiger is the way it is, because it’s in the jungle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:29

So, yeah, I love that. Because, like you said, you know, like, Art has always been almost like an active participant in life, and to separate it from its context. It does, it does deaden it a little bit. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of sad to experience it that way. Like, imagine if the ecstasy of st Teresa was outside of the original church, where it is like, Oh, wow, this is an amazing sculpture. But at the same time, like, you push that button, the light turns on, and you’re like, in this amazing experience of a sculpture that is meant to inspire people.

Matthew James Collins: 1:06:15

Yeah, you’re not getting the whole experience either. So if they take the out of where it’s supposed to be. It’s still a beautiful sculpture, but then it’s we’re missing something, and then it becomes something. Then it becomes something. It’s almost not. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s where, how do we solve that? I don’t know, but I was lucky, because I was commissioned to do a couple big paintings for stairwells in a school in North Dakota for a classical school. So I did the decoration of independence, and then I did the foundation of Rome. And that was a wonderful experience, because then I was able to kind of put into practice this idea of using optical taking the view lines where the pictures are seen, and then adjust the the adjust the perspective on the figures, or just this perspective on the viewpoint, so that we could design the picture in terms that how it seemed from a variety of viewpoints too. And that’s another thing where you, when we look at paintings as well, we kind of assume you’re supposed to see just from the front, from the side, but paintings are meant to be seen from all different kinds of angles too. I don’t know I get, I don’t have you. When you go to museums, it’s very kind of fun to look at paintings obliquely and looking slightly from the angle. And you can see how it changes the values and the colors as well too. So it’s this idea of discovery as well. Pictures as well. You see something from far away, and then you come brings you close to it as well, too. So this is where experiencing works of art in person, there’s lots of different levels of experience, from the first impact from a distance, as you get close, to see how things fall into different details and brush work. And so it becomes this a truly interactive experience, which is, I think, something that that, again, it’s a as you that participates in our lives and accompanies us, and then also makes us reflect about things, but also gives us joy and emotions and all these other things as well, too, and it and it makes life better. It just makes life better. I mean, there’s nothing more sad than a blank white wall for me. So what want to see pictures on them?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:20

I totally agree, yes. And that also reminded me of how Michelangelo, when he would make sculptures that we’re meant to be seen from below, he used to play with the perspective to make the upper body bigger in you know, when you would see it like eye to eye, but from below, it’s perfectly proportional, like it looks like, yeah, that’s, that’s a guy who’s perfectly proportional, but you see him, you know, eye to eye, and he’s massive, like, almost like a cone of the way that he’s increased the proportion so that it doesn’t look wonky from below, which is incredible. I mean, the fact that they this is something that is naturally thought of, right? It’s not just like, oh, make a nice sculpture and it’ll go up there. It’s like, No, I want people to see this and to understand what it is from below. I don’t want them to see a receding figure. That is. It is another part of the craft that is so amazing, and it sounds awesome. You know, the what you did the paintings to make sure that they’re seen from the correct angle. I think that’s also like next level, like art in its home, type of feeling, instead of, oh, here’s a painting that I made, and let’s find a wall where it fits. It’s more like,

Matthew James Collins: 1:09:37

Sure, then what happens? Happens. And I like, that’s not a satisfying response. And then it’s also, it goes back to the Greeks too, because the Greeks always use optical correction, I guess, for there’s architecture and sculptures, and that’s where because, and that just shows you, maybe they were looking at the world in a better way than we are. So they’re seeing things that a bit more profound, not profoundly, but they were looking more. Closely, and then living things more fully, too. That’s, again, we tend to coast over things. Now this is just kind of flip across screens and flip across images without truly looking at them, but again, maybe looking at something. And then that’s why we take that, I guess, as ours, we take that on as a responsibility, because if someone’s going to spend time looking at our works of art, we want something to be deep and something that will be rewarding over a long period of time, too. So the same kind of esthetic experience we get when we go to museums, if we have to, that’s to see Van Dyke and everything and Titian, but we see go every time you go back to a masterpiece painting, it never disappoints, and you see new things, and it’s like a it’s there’s a and that’s even a when. And as artists, we see things in a certain way. But even regular people, let’s say this civilian life, they see things that they do enjoy art as well, too. I mean, that’s what’s kind of I think, in hardening is when you see how popular the sergeant show was. I mean, how many people visited that? How many people visited the Bouguer show before there’s a Van Dyke Show, there’s the Reynolds show. So figurative art is kind of making, not just a comeback, but people are are interested in these things as well too, and not just in terms of a an economic, financial thing, but, you know, average, normal people are interested in in art as well too, and it’s our responsibility to make things that are engaging interesting, and then through poetry, they understand this kind of idea of catharsis, and this idea of living through works of art as well too, in a healthy way.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:36

So, yeah, yeah, not saying it is, you know, like you said, like, Oh, it’s just something you swipe on, you know, it like, I also agree it’s our responsibility to make something or to continue to create works that stop people in their tracks. And, you know, instead of making something that’s consumable, like, you know, I think about how commodified like decoration has become, like, even just very simple, like, even this, you know, this video, right? Me editing it like it took, it takes a while to edit a video we become so accustomed to, like, oh yes, of course, it’s being edited. That’s how it is. But that also is something that takes time and effort to put in a specific composition and to make it easy on the eyes, but we take that for granted. But that’s why it’s also good to make paintings and pieces that people certainly will stop and look at and realize, oh, every corner of this 2d surface right has taken a single brush stroke or multiple brushstrokes to fit by a single hand, instead of just, oh yeah, that’s just how it is, because that’s what we expect. Like there’s, I feel like there’s a bit of a disconnect too there. But yeah, I wanted to ask you too, because you mentioned, you know, having you have your courses that you teach, and you also have commissions that you’ve taken. What are some of the avenues that you’ve taken to both live from your work and or from your skills and expertise?

Matthew James Collins: 1:13:12

Well, galleries always help, so I but I’m not a real get big gallery. I tend to paint, and my paintings change, and ideas change, and so I tend to create paintings. But there’s, I have a painting, there’s a one’s going to Lisbon. My figurative work tends to be a bit buried, and travel to different, smaller galleries across Europe. And then I do I’ve been always doing portrait commissions as well, too. So there’s a bit of always getting your work out there and sharing it with people, because that’s what we because that’s what we wanted. We want to, obviously, we’re looking trying to find ourselves, but we want to share our journey with other people. And I think that’s another and again, essentially what we do in creating works of art is we’re trying to share this kind of beautiful experience that we have in creating art with other people. And I think that’s important as well too. We create it for ourselves, but without anyone seeing it. That’s that’s very romantic 19th century bohemian idea, but deep down, we want to people to see the kind of the world and share our vision and so and then so and so different gallery shows. But I’ve never been a big into commercial galleries, because it’s my work tends to be a bit kind of idiosyncratic. But portrait commissions have always been wonderful as well, too. And then I do, I do teaching as well too. So I was teaching at Cecil for a while, and then I’m teaching at a university here in Florence. And then I do, I tend to, and I do some private lessons in my studio now as well too, being slightly dis, I don’t, I’m not, contrary to workshops, but I kind of do a successful workshop. Certain things have to happen. And then the kind of condensing of what I want to kind of transmit, especially in terms of portraiture, which I think I’ve a lot to share, it’s difficult to do in a three or four days as well, too. So I kind of, I always try to paint along with the people that I’m from the very beginning to the end too. So I don’t. Like, do a demo, right? And then everyone paints. I kind of paint as everyone else is painting. And then I kind of teach so this way, and I talk and paint at the same time, yes, so I can do both. So you kind of try to, because a lot of painting is, I think, in terms of teaching painting, it’s seeing how someone paints, and seeing what they’re doing, and then kind of intervene, what is the title? Where’s intervenida is kind of step in at the right moment and then put them on track or change something or adjust something. So, because people tend to do things without thinking about it, they’re used to it. And then, if they’re mixing it, Colorize, oh no, to do that, and then change this. No, stand there. Look at this. And so without seeing someone do that, or just have them do it on their own, and then correct afterward, I see as less productive as being right there and so. And then that kind of limits, obviously what I can do. So I only have a certain amount of space, so I tend to only have one or two students at the most, and then I paint a portrait along with them too. I think that’s maybe the best way to teach anyway, so, but obviously there’s not. There’s other ways to teach as well, too, and you can definitely transmit a lot as transmit a lot as well, too. So I tend to certain painters come in and visit me, and then they kind of, we just paint a portrait together, and that’s one way of learning.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:09

So, yeah, yeah, no, but that’s a that’s an excellent point, because that was actually one of my frustrations as a student as well. Is being told after the fact, oh, no, you did this wrong. And it’s like, Well, you saw me. Why didn’t you intervene, like how you were saying because that would have prevented me from spending so much time trying to resolve something that I could have avoided. But I think, you know, that’s, that’s one of the hard parts as well, and probably the one of the reasons you you keep so few students is because it is hard to do that for every single student when there’s so many of them and only one instructor. Yeah, so I

Matthew James Collins: 1:16:49

and teaching is a skill too. So this is where it’s I was lucky. Where I was, where I studied, I got was an excellent teacher, so I learned teaching skills there. So teaching is communication, it’s also empathy, and then it’s also direction. And so those three different kind of, let’s say, elements come together. I think to make good teaching is where you have to empathize with what the students going through doing, and then you have to be able, to be able, you have to know what the what they should be doing, and then you have to give them direction to do it as well too. So, and that’s and communicate that in a productive way too. Yeah, I’ve had lots and lots of really bad art teachers over the years, and so just, just terrible. And so when I try to endeavor is not do what they did. So because I’ve had studying fresco, they secure and they just come, they say, It’s all wrong, it’s terrible, it’s all bad. I was like, well, that’s thank you for the feedback. But then how do you make that better? Nothing. So it’s like, so yeah, there’s plenty of people that, there’s plenty of teachers that are antiso. Teaching is a, I think, a great way, if you’re an artist, to supplement and to, let’s say, work and share the knowledge that you acquire. But I think first, as we mentioned before, in July, so the problem. So let’s say the the problems of, let’s say contemporary art schools, where students are teaching, they are not teaching very much, and they don’t know how to teach. And so that becomes a problem too. So first, learn how to do something, and then being able to communicate it. Then you become you can teach too. So giving lessons and other things, and obviously need a learning curve. It’s not like you learn how to teach like that. It’s practice. But so definitely, teaching is a, I think, a nice way to augment your because being an artist is hard. It’s a terrible it’s that. It’s terrible, it’s hard, it’s stressful, it’s some people are commercially minded, and they can really make the jump. Like people are commercial artists go into fine art, but they become commercial Fine Arts, and that’s fantastic, and they make very beautiful things. But if that’s not your personality, you just have to kind of deal with that as well, too. But I think in terms of teaching, you have to be able to, as you’ve experienced firsthand, you have to be able to transmit something and help people. If you can’t, well, then that’s you’re you’re benefiting, but the student’s not benefiting as well. So that’s kind of a shame in the end.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:08

So yeah, yeah. And I think it’s almost like a rite of passage for many of us to experience not so great teachers. It’s inevitable. I mean, not everyone that we meet is going to be an excellent teacher. But I think it also teaches us how not to teach, which

Matthew James Collins: 1:19:25

is really great. And then also someone and obviously, art is hard, so obviously, if companies discouraging you, then you just have to keep going. So obviously, if you’re easily discouraged and you stop, well maybe you should, because art is hard and art is it’s hard on every different level. But if it’s something that drives you forward and it needs you, and you need to do it, and you want to do it, then you just do it. And then obviously all the obstacles that are in the way will you overcome them one way or the other. And then obviously it’s but that’s what you. That, unfortunately, it’s not easy, and so you need a thick skin to be an artist, but also you need to believe in yourself as well too. So this is where it’s all again. It’s a it is this kind of circle of contradictions, where these different things come together, where you have to move forward as well.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:15

So yes, absolutely. And I know you just gave some really excellent advice, but do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Matthew James Collins: 1:20:29

Well, I think we’re all full time artists if we’re thinking about and doing it too. So this is where, again, if you if, if you have to get sidelined doing a little bit of this and doing that, that’s where it’s I think we’re kind of, you’re born an artist, and then you can, you can, if you have find the opportunity to express yourself and then be able to make a living off of it, that’s fantastic, because we have to make a living. But in the end, you shouldn’t. Again, unfortunately, that’s how the world is today. I think it’s a shame, because there’s a lot of poetic people that are discouraged from going into the arts because they don’t think there’s an opportunity in it, or they can’t make a decent living, and other things as well too. But if you’re destined to do it, you’ll do it and then just kind of overcome those obstacles as well to become a full time artist. Very rarely are people that are, let’s say, poetically inclined, full time artists, because they, unfortunately, there’s a lot of different ideas that go in together there too. So you just kind of, kind of, I don’t have good advice in that sense, though,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:37

I totally get you. It’s a It’s rough. It’s really rough. I mean, that’s why some people, I think, get day jobs, or they become teachers, or we’re in a bit of a strange time in the world right now. So I think there are weird, different opportunities that appear somehow. But yeah, it’s hard to give concrete advice. I totally agree.

Matthew James Collins: 1:22:00

Yeah, you do the best you can. And then obviously, it also depends on the personality as well, too, and what you want to do. So I mean, this is where, if you’re true to yourself, whatever you do, and then you can still be a great artist and sell, let’s say landscapes. And you could still, still lives. And you can do it as long as you’re being sincere and true to yourself. And for me, if you make beautiful things, that’s the most important thing. And then, obviously, sooner or later, they will be appreciated. Unfortunately, sometimes it’s later, it’s not sooner and so and then, obviously, there’s lots of other aspects of becoming a full time artist, which is networking and business sense and then, but some, I think it’s a lot of those, and then knowing how to insert yourself in certain environments, and then getting certain ideas and gallery shows and but that’s has very little to do with art, as we were mentioned in the very beginning of the conversation about the let’s say art, basil and other things as well, too. That’s a whole different kind of you can become a full time artist and not be a very good artist. And so that’s when you can be a great artist and not be able to be a full time artist too. So but again, that’s, I think there’s space for everybody. So you just have to find out where you fit in there and then do the best you can.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:10

So yeah, yeah, that’s all you really can do. There’s room for everyone. I do. I do agree, yeah. And then if someone wants to take classes with you, or if they want to see more of your work, do you have any exhibitions going on, or anything that you would like to promote?

Matthew James Collins: 1:23:34

But anyone’s interested in taking less wants to come study privately, send me a message, and then, as I do, plenty commissions, anyone’s interested in getting a nice portrait painted, they can always contact me. It’s come out to Florence as well, too. And so and I have a paintings in different museums. So if you happen to be in Barcelona, there’s a painting in the museum there and their permanent collection, and a painting in Florida and in Orlando, at the basilica there. So there’s obviously seeing paintings in real life is the best so, but that’s unfortunate, and galleries in the USA, there’s a nice there’s a jack Meyer gallery of some paintings and sculptures there. So I’ve had the end to be there. So, but other than that, if you come to flourishes, write me, and then you can come visit. So it’d be a pleasure to see other artists and other artists and other art students. Anyone wants to come, just

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:25

contact me. Awesome. Yeah. And then what is your website? And if you have social media, the website

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:31

is like, my name, luckily, Matthew James Collins, and then Instagram is the same thing. Matthew James Collins, artist, so

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:39

perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matthew For the very informative, inspiring conversation. I this was brain candy for me. Oh, well,

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:51

thank you. It’s a pleasure chatting with your wonderful conversationalist.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:54

So thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you to everyone out there for. Listening to the podcast, your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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Today’s Article

The following article was written by Debra Keirce, a regular contributing author to The BoldBrush Letter.

Big Steps, Little Steps

It sounds like the title of a Dr. Seuss book, doesn’t it? One Step, Two Step, Big Step, Blue Step.

What are you doing to build momentum enough to realize your objectives by the end of the year? Are you chugging caffeine and attacking the big steps? Or, have you been entering the little steps into a color coded spreadsheet you will never look at again? Some seasons I do both.

But which do you think are more important to invest in?

One day at a time is a phrase we have all heard. But we also know that go for broke, risking everything in a breakout effort to succeed, is a strategy. I have been frustrated with them all. Usually I get impatient waiting for the payout on the one day at a time to happen. But, my bank account and energy stores can’t handle much of the go for broke attempts.

Whether it is a large or small act, it is depleting our resources, and we are looking for a return on that investment. But in this art business, the ROI is rarely obvious. It can take years of hard work to get a single sale.

So what can we do? I often get sick of hearing that as long as I am moving forward, I shouldn’t worry if I only do a small bit of the task. That’s always when I encounter a mud puddle I know I am going to have to jump over.

I was thinking about this recently when I spoke with a friend of mine. Thomas Nash is an amazing, and very successful, portrait artist who built his career through word of mouth, one referral at a time. Half a century ago, he began by doing what he knew he was good at. The first ten years of his career were spent on the streets of Gatlinburg and other tourist towns doing pastel portraits from life. Then he “moved up” to sketching portraits in shopping malls where he could work indoors. Today, he is in his own studio, turning away five figure commissions that don’t feel like a good fit for him.

That is the kind of artistic swagger we all dream of.

Tom’s secret sauce? He identified from the start, what his interests were. He liked people and he liked painting faces. For over 50 years now, he has been working hard to be less bad at these two things, every single day. He didn’t worry about whether he was taking big or little steps toward his goals. He just focused on creating the best relationships with his clients and on becoming a more skilled artist. As a result, his collectors typically came back like loyal boomerangs, and improved skills allowed him to raise his prices. That was Tom’s strategy - be better at what you are already good at. It worked for him.

Then there’s my story, I crashed the party a little late. When I began my career in earnest, I did the math. I knew that realistically, I only had 40 to 50 years at most to live, and then only if I ate more kale and adopted a “blue zone” lifestyle. I knew that at best, I could probably only count on about 30 of those years being productive, before my hands decide they are done creating.

Naturally, I panicked. I had to try all the media, all the subjects, all the marketing ploys, in order to figure out which ones worked for me. I felt like a human pinball in a gallery-shaped machine.

After a decade of frantic situations for building a skillset, teaching, creating, advertising, and selling, I finally got to where my friend Thomas started, I think. I am taking it one day at a time. The “sprint” phase of website and social media and resume building is mostly over. Now, I am zeroing in on what I actually love. Compared to my early pace, I am taking baby steps. I just need the stamina to keep walking at a steady pace, without tripping over my own ambition.

Where are you on this chaotic continuum? Are you taking superhero sized leaps, or are you in a more eloquent high heeled part of the journey? Or are you in a weird combination of both, like wearing the high heels but walking on cobblestones?

Leave a comment

Debra Keirce
www.DebKArt.com

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In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career: collectors. Our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long-term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialogue—through conversations at shows, home salon events, and gallery openings. Many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media, and even texting to stay in touch, share new work, and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity, from handwritten thank-you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers but possible friends, supporters, and “connectors” whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Episodes mentioned in order of appearance:

• 81 Steve Atkinson

• 87 Johanna Spinks

• 94 Karen Blackwood

• 61 Nanci France-Vaz

• 99 Heather Arenas

• 101 Joseph Gyurcsak

• 120 Kim Casebeer

• 130 Scott Ruthven

• 162 David Griffin

• 166 Miriam Schulman

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Steve Atkinson: 0:00

You need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that they’re collecting.

Johanna Spinks: 0:17

You know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime.

Scott Ruthven: 0:23

Nurture your community, your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give?

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career, collectors, our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialog through conversations at shows, home, salon events and gallery openings, many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media and even texting to stay in touch, share new work and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity from handwritten thank you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers, but possible friends, supporters and connectors, whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Steve Atkinson: 1:52

The other thing that illustration gave me and being an illustrator, is understanding people are going to roast me for this, understanding that art is a business, and so if you want to make a living at art, you need to not just be excellent at your technique, especially if you’re you know, representational artists, you also need to be able to understand that there are deadlines, especially if You’re in galleries or in shows. You need to be able to get things done on time. You need to make a profit, make a little bit of a profit, otherwise, you know, you’re going to end up like so many artists that just can’t make a living at it, and understanding, Oh, the other big thing, the big difference between illustration and fine art, is that with fine art, it really is centered on it’s a relationship based way of living with illustration. You have, you know, your commercial clients come to you with with fine art, you need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that They’re collecting. They and this is true in all business. People do business with people that they like, and so having that email list is so important, having social media is important. Advertising can be important, but picking up the phone and calling people who have bought your work and staying in touch with them so important, and something that I’m trying to get better at, because I’m a big introvert, but luckily, I have learned that one on one, I’m I’m really good, but Talking to big crowds of people, or going to shows where there’s a big crowd, that’s a little more daunting for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:06

That’s That’s understandable. I completely relate to that. It is definitely a lot easier to, you know, have your focus on one person. I also get very overwhelmed in large groups. But, yeah, those are excellent, excellent, excellent points. And I think you know, especially, you know, if you have a career in illustration, right, or, like when you did, you get used to all that. Maybe not the one on one collector side, but you definitely get used to deadlines speed and okay, you got to get this done exactly the way that the client wants it. Because, of course, the client is the one who tells you exactly tells you exactly what they want. Versus, you know, in fine art, you can come up with almost anything and and then the collectors have to come to you, you know, but you have to put yourself out there. So it’s a little bit of a back and forth, different, yeah,

Steve Atkinson: 4:57

yeah, yeah, most definitely. And I. I think so often we don’t understand that it really is a relationship driven kind of kind of a calling. I didn’t realize that when I first started, and I’ll tell this little story, I was at a show, and a lot of times you’ll see when artists are at the show, the artists will glom together. You’ll you’ll see somebody that you know, who’s an artist, and you’ll go over and talk to them. And there’s all these collectors that are, that are there, or people that you don’t know yet, and you can spend your whole time just talking to an artist or a bunch of artists that you know. And I had, one time I had someone come up and insert themselves into a conversation that I was having with another artist, and they didn’t know who I was, and when they found that, they said, Oh, are you in the show? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. And they said, well, where’s your art? And it was a show that had many different rooms of art. And I said, Oh, it’s over in this room, over here. And went on to talking to the person that I was talking with. My wife comes up afterwards, and she said, Honey, you may want, if someone comes up and asks where your art is, you may want to take them over and show them. So I never made that mistake again. But it’s just one of those things that’s not innate, unless you realize that you’re building relationships. And it’s nice to talk to the people that you know, but it’s much better to go up and talk to someone, maybe, who’s looking at your art or someone else, and find out what their tastes are in art and start that conversation where they’re from. Do they have any artwork? Is it prints? Is it originals? What do they look for in a painting? I just find that if you start talking to people about what their likes are, the conversation is so easy. I mean it, people love talking about themselves, and so you just go down that road, ask them a question, and you can just nod for 10 minutes, you know. Or a lot of times, you’ll find you have a lot in common. I have made such good friends doing that, and to this day, not just people who buy my art, but people who you just generally like you genuinely like. So it’s, it’s a great experience, if you look at it as this person has something to offer me. I don’t know them, but I know we have things in common. We just have to figure out what they are, yeah, so that’s it. I’m off my soapbox.

Johanna Spinks: 7:35

Dave touched me too. It’s a two way street, you know, and the conversations that we had, and by the way, in the face of Ventura, we I linked in with a newspaper, and all those sitters went on to a radio show too, so after the sketch had been painted. So it really was about, you know, telling their story. And I think that’s what made it powerful, actually. And I will say, if you’re going to do these kind of things again, if you’re interested in putting your artwork out there in terms of marketing, and we have to talk about marketing that, you know, be kind of thinking, Well, you know, what is the end game of this as well? You know, because going off and painting 130 portraits of people is a big time commitment, as you know, doing a show like this, those things are a time commitment. You’ve got to arrange it. You’ve got to do this, that and the other and it was a significant part of my yearly thing, doing that. So I was very aware right from the beginning that they were never going to be for sale, that they were, I think I sold one of them, and then said I did sell one of them, and it was a very bad idea. Changed my mind and asked if I could have it back and give her a painting instead, which, which she lovely, lovely. So agreed to, because this the Boone Special Collections archives had asked if they could take the Malibu and rebuild series into their collection. And she was one, one of the paintings that was missing I needed, I needed to have her included. So in terms of marketing and building your brand, you decide where you’re you know what you’re aiming for. I mean, I really wanted those portraits to be archivally stored somewhere. And I just started with that intention from the very beginning. And it took a lot of effort and a lot of very good people in the towns to help me achieve that. And that goes back to the one on one contact with people you know, the people that that are your connectors. You know, just, you know, nurture those the connectors. You know that somebody said, somebody famous, and I hope I’m not misquoting, but you know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime, and I say if you have 50 serious connectors, you know people who like you, like your art, and. Stay with you over the years that will take you so far. You know, the connectors are as gold as the connectors collectors are. Connectors are as gold as collectors. So, yeah, I would say, always have in mind, you know, that the mountain you’re trying to reach in terms of, you know, well, could this go somewhere? So with the 365 days of drawing, you know, there was a show, there was a book, self published book, there was a article in American artist magazine that was so never think, Oh, I’ve done this. That’s it. Like, think, well, what can I do with it afterwards? Because a lot of the stuff for me happened after the individual Town projects were finished, the paintings were in storage. And then then I said, Well, now I start the what do we do with this?

Karen Blackwood: 10:51

Surely have one collector that is one of my best collectors, who found me online when I lived in Michigan and bought a piece and continues to buy my work out here now, and I’ve had her to my home, and I usually will have a once a year salon show at home where I invite only my collectors or future collectors, kind of like a way to just show them what I’m working on, so they become, you know, friends, and I value them. And then through my galleries, I would say, you know, they maintain a really strong relationship with collectors. And anytime I’m working on a new piece, they’ll make sure that collector gets to see it. And then out on social media, you know, people get to stay in touch. And the newsletter actually on the FASO website, my newsletter. I built a strong following during covid. I couldn’t paint my large paintings. I thought I would kill them and I and I knew I had to paint. So I did a that I could keep working. And I knew I could sustain focus for, you know, a six by eight. So I think I painted about 80 of them, close to 80, and sold them all through my newsletter on FASO. So I would let the buyers know that, you know, next Tuesday, you know, look for my newsletter and first come, first serve. It gets sold to, you know, whoever tells me I want it. And so I built up, you know, I think I added 400 followers from that campaign, on that, on that newsletter, because they were buying the painting. So, so the newsletter is also a big thing, I would say, social media and keeping in touch through a consistent newsletter on FASO has been, yeah, fine art studio online, for those who don’t know, galleries

Nanci France-Vaz: 13:17

is somebody else’s business, and you know, you’re taking a chance that they are going to put you in front of their collectors. Some of the problems today that I see with that, I think in the 90s or turn of the 21st Century, you know, they’re they were really good before the whole social media thing. And I think since social media came out, as a business owner myself, I kind of can feel for, you know, social media artists are able to sell on their own right now, but of course, they have to find the collectors. That’s very difficult to do. I’ve done it, and I have done, you know, in the past year, I do have those collectors that have seen my work through Instagram, and so that’s why I focus on Instagram, or I read about them, and then I went to an event that they were at, and I didn’t say anything to them. I just got to know them. And, you know, I became, I guess, very extroverted as I got older. I was more introverted when I was younger, and then after gymnastics, I would say, in my 30s, I started to come into my own. And then in my 40s, now I was selling. And so I found that you have to get along with people. You have to network by just becoming their friend. You have to build relationships. That’s what business is all about. Build relationships, whether it’s with a gallery, with a collector on Instagram. You know, some people just want people to like their work and follow them, but they never comment or like. Your work, there’s a lot of people like that, so it’s got to be reciprocal. You have to build relationships. Doesn’t matter how many followers that person has. So I try to do that. I try to build relationships with some galleries. I felt like I wasn’t ready because I wanted to find my voice. Now I am. So that’s why I went with Dasha. When Lee asked me to do a solo show, I said, I’m out of inventory. I only have one painting left, and I sold most of those on my own. But I do want to be in a gallery too, because I think both can be lucrative. If I am in a gallery and I’m signed to a gallery, if I have a collector that goes to the gallery, you know, I always get the gallery 50% I don’t undercut a gallery. I think that’s wrong to do. Somebody asked me, you don’t take 50% of your price. I go, No, absolutely not. I do exactly what my gallery would do if my gal, if it wasn’t seen in my gallery, and it’s my client, and I’m not represented by a gallery, I’m just a guest artist. I can sell my work on my own. There is no contract, right? So I do give them, I start with 10% and you know, I won’t give more than you know, some galleries that have asked me, can you go 20% but I’ve had it enough so that I feel like, if I’m going to give up 50% then I’m still making money, especially if I have to ship it. So you gotta, it’s very hard to do your homework. Find the right Gallery and the right galleries that really believes in you, that wants to sell you work. Well, you know what? I think everybody’s trying to figure out the landscape and how to render that landscape for their business and and it’s all good. I totally get it. Like social media changed everything. So they’re trying to figure it out. You’re trying to figure it out. I think being with the gallery, being my mother was a business owner. I’m a business owner. You know, if I had a staff, I would want them to be loyal to me, absolutely. They absolutely have the right I’m definitely Pro Gallery, but you have to pick the right one that works for you. But there are some excellent galleries out there that have artists for a long time, and they have artists for a long time, and they always give them a solo show, and they do quite well with them, and those are the ones that you want to strive to be in. That’s the struggle of artists, whether they’re younger or older. You could be older and breaking into the business. There’s no such thing as age. Age isn’t the number. You know, you can develop work and be quite good at 80 years old. You don’t have to start on year five. It all depends on the time you put in. You have to look at me. I went on the hamster wheel, and I’m trying to catch up, and I think I’m there. I caught up to a certain extent. I wish I had 40 more years in this. Maybe I do, I don’t know, but I think you have to try all of it and see what works the best. But I think having a lot of different venues to try out is good a friend of mine. Francine Craig is a friend of mine, and, you know, she’s done AI. I don’t have any problem with that, as long as they’re not saying it, it’s a painting. You know, they should have their own venue and be able to sell their work their artists, too. But I tend to like traditional work, and she goes into auctions. And I said, Oh, really? She said, Oh, it’s a lower price point. I said, Well, maybe I could do studies that are like six by nine or eight by 10, like real, Listen Live. I put this little, small five by five inch painting in their auction because I was part of the faculty this year, and it sold, and I’ve had it for a few years now, you know, I’m like, Oh, why didn’t I think of doing that? You know? So you never know. Try everything. If that doesn’t work, try something else. Put that painting somewhere else. Maybe it’ll hit that collector base right at

Laura Arango Baier: 19:15

FASO, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrushshow.com that’s BoldBrushshow.com the FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that. Come true, and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Heather Arenas: 20:45

your relationship with your gallery is one that you nurture. And my galleries are a partner with me, like we are both going for a good common cause. They want to make money. I want to make money. And so we’re going to work together to make that happen. And I think that there are a lot of people who are like, Oh, the calories. Are trying to do me wrong, and that’s just not the case. They just, they want to help you as much as help themselves. So it’s definitely a partnership. And so we discuss, you know, whether or not they are willing to give me a collector’s name, and am I going to go around them to go sell directly to that collector? Heck no. You know, I mean, I have a understanding with my galleries that I won’t undercut them. I won’t knock the sale out from underneath of them, any collector that is connected with the gallery. I’m going to run that sale right through the gallery, so because it benefits me just as much, this is a long term relationship. So that being said, one of the things that I do is, if I know that I am going to deliver work, which the two galleries that I have right now are within driving distance, so I will drive my work to the gallery, and ahead of time, I’ll send out a newsletter that basically says I’m going to be at the gallery on this date, and I would love to meet up, come and meet me at the gallery, and we can talk about this piece, you know. And so I’ve met a few collectors that way, who either already bought my work or have been dying to see the work in person, and they met me there, and we forged a relationship together, and that in person thing is just wonderful, and I tried to do that As much as possible. Now I have collectors in England, in France, you know? I mean, I’m not going to get to meet every collector in person, but I love it when they engage with me. And so I will, sometimes, I’ll post a photo of the painting, say, sold online on one of my social media sites, and then the collector will come forth and say, Oh, it was me that bought it. And I’m like, great. This is wonderful. Then I have a conversation that I can engage with them and find out a little bit more why they like the piece, a little bit more about them. And so I’m just always open to the conversation, I guess. And to that end, I send out a newsletter once a month or more, and I try to post on my Instagram page two to three times a week. And I’m just me. I’m not nearly as polished as a lot as a lot of the people who post on Instagram and all the videos that they’re doing now I’m like, I try, I do the best that I can, but I am what I am,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:50

yeah, and honestly, the efforts that you’re putting in are definitely paying off, right? Because I love that idea of, Oh, hey guys, I’m going to be at the gallery this day, and I’d love to meet any of you who’ve collected my work. That’s that’s awesome, because, yeah, oftentimes I have met artists who are, I guess, since there’s that relationship with the gallery, right, and the gallery doesn’t always share who your collector is, you might as well just like, put your foot out there and be like, hey, you know what? I invite you guys to hang out, literally, at the place where you bought my work, or want to buy my work. And that feels a lot more safe, and I don’t know, than trying to, quote, unquote, steal those exact collectors out from the gallery. Yeah.

Heather Arenas: 24:27

Well, and I’ll work with the gallery, and they invite people to come and see me too, you know. So if they know somebody who has been interested in my work, they will specifically call them up and say, Heather’s going to be there on such and such a date, you know? And then we coordinate a time, and I get there, you know, I’m not, I’m not a flaky artist in that I do what I say I’m going to do, and I show up. That’s 90% of the game, right? It’s just show up and then do the work. So Exactly, yeah, it works out really well, though, to have. Have that kind of partnership and understanding with the gallery.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:03

You have to develop friendship. You have to have a gallery that really believes in you don’t just try to be in a gallery where you say, Please, can I get in your gallery? That’s the wrong position to go in. You need to be in places where they say, Yeah, I believe in this work, and because, if they believe in it, they’re going to sell it, because they at the end of the day, when somebody walks in the gallery, remember The Gallerist or the gallery director, those are the people that are going to speak about you. So they have to know you. They have to believe you. You have to develop a relationship. You only need one good gallery. You don’t need a 1020, of them. I mean, I know some artists have that, but really, you have to have that sincere relationship connection to the you know, sometimes the galleries don’t share who the collectors that bought it. Sometimes they do. That depends on the relationship and how that goes. But if you do have a collector that buys from you straight up direct, because I sell things on Instagram or, you know, through my website, or if somebody comes around and says, I bought this from the gallery, always make sure that you send out some sort of Thank you, and that’s really a good thing, like thank you for supporting me and my famp. We send out a note, like a card, and it says, Thank you for supporting me and my fam, my journey, my family, this and that. People have to know how much that means that, you know, you invested in me and gave me I used to make a joke, but I and people would think I’m really seriously. Say, yeah, if I don’t sell pain this month, my my wife said I can’t paint anymore, really. Oh, my god, yeah, so I need to sell, you know. But aside from all the joking, yes, you’re supporting somebody’s journey, you know. And you know, back in the day, if you read the old art books, they would have like, what you call a sponsor, like somebody sponsoring you to be an artist. Well, yeah, artists need to make money like everybody else. So when you find those people that do support, you, let them know. You know how much that means. Just a little note to them or something to keep them in the loop. I’m not that great on my website for doing the newsletters, but I when I just finished a workshop in Belgium. The artists really said, I said, I don’t want to bug people all the time with a newsletter this and that. Say, well, even if you do it four times a year, so I’m actually going to do that based on the feedback I got from this workshop. I’m going to try to do a newsletter every quarter, at least, because I think I didn’t realize that they were telling me they want to hear what I’m doing. So I’m like, okay, yeah, I’m going to do it. We’re going to do it. Yeah? So there’s a goal right there that I’m going to do that I haven’t been doing. You know, make adjustments everything we’re talking about. You hear something, hey, that’s to your advantage. If people are giving you feedback and it’s positive, you have to do something right first.

Kim Casebeer: 28:29

I think it’s very important to show up. So if there is an exhibit, if you are part of an exhibit at a gallery or an art center, or really any place you should you should show up. You should be there, especially during the opening, for sure, and perhaps other times too, I have had situations where the gallery, this is more local my Kansas City Gallery, that’s not very far away, so it’s easier for me to get to it’s a few hours where we’ve had an opening and I’m there. And then we also do, maybe another day, the next day, do a like a demo day, a more relaxed day where we’re demoing and and the idea is, is that we can talk more one on one with people, because it’s not quite as busy, it’s not quite as crowded as the opening night was. And then I’ve had situations where perhaps we try a an ending Reception The show is getting ready, because most of the shows are two, three months long, and then you have an ending reception where people can reconnect with you. And so I think you have to, you have to go to those and and connect, connect with your collectors. Yeah, I think that’s very important, but they also collectors will also connect with you in other ways. And one way I do that is with newsletters. So I have, I actually have two newsletters. One is. I would call it a general newsletter. So it has the show information, but it also has workshop information, classes, all those types of things. So a lot of artists subscribe to that newsletter. And then I have a second newsletter that is dedicated to collectors. And at least mine is, it’s a little smaller, but it is, I would say it’s just as important. And it only talks about the shows that are coming up or or maybe a photo of what’s on my easel at at this moment, those types of things that a collector is going to really be invested in.

Scott Ruthven: 30:40

And then, if you don’t mind, I always like to ask people, How did you find me? Whether it’s a collector, I asked you this when you reached out to me, right? And it’s, it fascinates me. The and I an example I just give is a recent I just picked up some commission for multiple paintings, right? And it’s people that just live an hour away from me, but they found my work when they were visiting their son in California at a gallery in a show that I’m in. So, you know, I’m just a local guy for them, really, and but they saw my painting in person, and they like it. And they said, Hey, this is a Colorado guy. They looked me up. They signed up for my email, and now I’ve got some business from them. So you never know. It just such a great and the YouTube channel I started because I was getting more requests to teach workshops. I do teach plein air workshops, but they take a lot of time, and I’m teaching eight or 10 people, because I don’t like to have a huge crowd. I think I really want to have that individual attention that I give to my students. But there’s only one of me, and the time is just, you know, I can’t the trade off in time is too much. So I started the YouTube channel as a way to just kind of do some live streams and that type of thing and and try to share how I paint. And then that became a community of people that tune in for those and the followership grew. I did monetize eventually, although I’m not gonna, you know, it’s like, it’d be my full time job, because it’s that’s not what I want to do. But I like to teach. I like to share. And so that’s a community of its own. I’ve sold work to that community. But you know, really, I try to, I try to give more than you know, a trick I would pass along is to nurture your community. Your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give? How can you, you know, and giving might just be taking an interest in their life, sending them a nice note, remembering a birthdays, texting them. I mean, I’m on with I text with my collectors. I’m sure a lot of the you know artists do as well, but that’s a great thing to do, because it doesn’t really take anything. Everybody texts today. It’s an easy thing. If you know somebody’s birthday, text them a happy birthday, and so, you know, seek to give some value, rather than always just pulling value out of your audience, whether it’s YouTube or your email list, your your galleries, that kind of thing. Because this emotional bank concept, if you’ve heard of it, you know, you can’t, you can’t keep making withdrawals out of your bank account without putting deposits in. So, you know, I seek to make more deposits than withdrawals.

David Griffin: 33:28

The other purpose is, is giving me a chance to connect in a different way with collectors. Galleries are important, and they have been important to me, but they don’t offer the opportunity to meet and speak on an extended period of time with someone that’s interested in buying your work. Most of it’s done remotely. I’m not there when it happens. Shows are different matter. You can actually speak to, you know, an exhibit at a museum show or at the Coors show. You can actually speak to the people why they’re interested. What, what, what stopped them, what connected? And that’s what I really want to spend also in this art of wandering journey is hopefully being able to connect with new collectors and and establish a relationship, create an opportunity for for the collector to be part of the process of what I’m doing. Not that they would tell me what to do, but I want to know what. I want to know what, what made them aware of what I’m doing, what made them if it stopped them, fine, if it angered them, if it made them happy, if it brought them some peace. I need to know about all that, and the only way I can know about that is having a conversation, or some sort of dialog with them. So that’s the other part of this process. Journey is I want to, I want to open up that avenue of you. Of connecting on a deeper level with the collector or the interested parties. It’s just going to help me better. It’s going to help me communicate better. It’s going to be helped me to be a better artist. It’ll probably help me be a better person. I’ll find out. You know, what it is that I’m doing, if it makes any sense at all to anybody, if it matters. So those are the things that I think are on my mind today and will be for a while. And isn’t it wonderful for me? Isn’t this such a blessing for me to be able to because you’re the first one, you are the initial platform that I’ve been able to that I’ve been given opportunity to announce this new endeavor. So I’m grateful to you for the timing and for the opportunity to talk about what’s on my heart today. So thank you Laura and and BoldBrush and and Faso and all the other thing, all this, this umbrella of wonderful creative people that have given me the opportunity to show my work in such a wonderful fashion. So that’s it continues to be a cool collaboration from my end of the stick, or my end of the bargain of surrounding myself with people that that allow me to be better at what I’m doing.

Miriam Schulman: 36:30

So Instagram tends to be a little bit more confessional. I wouldn’t be as confessional on LinkedIn as maybe Instagram is, but much of the content you’ve posted in the past on those other platforms are it’s exactly the same thing. They like, videos, pictures of your art in progress, your values, pictures of you working your studio pet, all those things. Of course, you don’t have a studio pet, maybe your studio goldfish, I don’t know, yes, yes, all those things behind the scenes content, but you want to make it behind the scenes content that’s interesting to collectors, not other artists. So not, Oh, I couldn’t decide whether to use Payne’s gray or whatever, and this is how I saved my painting. That’s something artists care about. Behind the scenes content for collectors, it’s a different flavor so they want It’s like the difference between knowing how the sausages are made, that’s what artists care about, versus what’s the speech that the waiter gives when he’s telling you the specials that’s like what a collector wants. It’s like the magic,

Kim Lordier: 37:50

I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of. I think, like a lot of us throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium, we have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows. So my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base. And that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know, my friends, people that are who may be listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s your way, and It’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we, kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work. You. Again, remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important. But I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:24

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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This piece originally appeared on my personal Substack, Clinsights, here. It has been edited and improved for publication in The FASO Way.

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The Mystical Song of Creation in Starry Night That Inspires Man to Go to the Moon

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

On April 1st, millions of people tuned in to watch as NASA launched its new Artemis II rocket, which carries four astronauts bound for the moon, the biggest “star” in the night sky, for the first time in fifty-three years.

Man has always looked into the night sky and been overcome with a longing; a remembrance; a Desire to reach for the stars: A Heavenly Desire.

Desire, in its truest sense, is from the Latin de sidera — of the stars. True Desire is not of the earth. Earthly desires are more appropriately called appetites, but The True Desire is a deep longing to ascend to the stars and rejoin the Divine.

Even the word heaven, as Jesus uses it in the Gospels, is more accurately translated as sky or cosmos.

In The Chronicals of Narnia, stars are presented as conscious beings. Eustace, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, talks with a star named Ramadu:

“In our world,” said Eustace, “a star is a huge ball of flaming gas.”

Ramandu replies, “Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of.”

Eustace’s description of stars as flaming balls of gas is not false, but it is incomplete. Stars are not mute. They sing to us.

In our world, just as in Narnia, the stars are up there, in the heavens, singing to us, reaching out toward us, calling us with that ancient song that we all long to rejoin; a song composed of light. It is a song they sang, patiently, for eons before their melody entered our mind through our eyes.

This singing of the stars is echoed in Van Gogh’s Starry Night. In it, one can see this primordial oscillation driving the movement of life throughout the famous landscape.

The sky is alive in a great, sweeping melody—spiraling and dancing. The stars aren’t depicted as mere “balls of gas.” They appear as blazing vibrations, broadcasting their voices outward, inviting creation itself to sing. In the foreground, the dark flame of the cypress rises, like a rocket, in its longing to join them. In the background, the mountains rumble with the low, steady gravity of bass. And the village, nestled in the great song’s bosom, breaths in and breaths out with the rhythm of life.

Everything participates. Nothing is inert. The whole canvas lives.

And there, in the upper right corner, is the queen of the night stars, the moon, the heavenly choir director, leading the song with her warm, ethereal voice.

This is the musica universalis—the music of the spheres—made visible. This is nature as revelation. This is where God is encountered; the moving, wild, luminous God of Life.

And then we notice the church.

It sits at the village center, its windows dark, unlit, silent – lifeless. While everything else vibrates with life, the church feels sealed off — closed to the song that pervades the rest of the world.

The contrast speaks for itself, serving as a subtle critique of our religious misunderstandings, hinting at the truth that we find God everywhere — except in the artificial, idolatrous boxes we insist on stuffing Him-Her into.

But we have always preferred gods we can manage, haven’t we?

Those kinds of gods stay indoors and follow rules. We forget the truth that The Mystery is everything except what man thinks it is. The living God cannot be contained, and The Kingdom does not arrive in straight lines or tidy boxes. It is unveiled only in the song of life where rhythm, unpredictability, and movement prevail. God dwells where Life dwells.

“Your religion is not the church you belong to, but the cosmos you live inside of.”

— GK Chesterton

The stars remind us of this. They will not squeeze themselves into our boxes. Instead, they sing. The Logos sings continuously, gifting us with the ever-changing possibility of the present. The Song gifts us time as a canvas upon which we are invited to paint something creative. We are invited to create, in the image of the divine vine, of which we are all branches.

C.S Lewis knew this and Van Gogh saw this truth. The song plays evermore, calling out, to you, calling out your true name, kindling the one True Desire in your heart. A desire born of the stars — de sidera.

This Desire exhorts you to see and to hear; for the only way to create harmony; to create Art, is to tune into the one song with your spiritual eyes and ears so that you hear the entire symphony that is waiting for you. It’s waiting for you to step away from the scales of dogma, and to, instead, start playing your soul’s unique harmony. That is the Desire you feel when you gaze into the night sky.

And the moment you begin to play is moment the whole symphony has been waiting upon.

Godspeed, Artemis II.

May our prayers, and our shared song, buoy you upon a wave that carries you forth into the cosmic symphony.

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PS — If you’d like a print of Starry Night, we have it available in many different formats, framed or unframed, in the FASO Print Gallery. Should you desire Van Gogh’s masterpiece for your own walls, ordering it from us would help support what we are doing.

Browse Starry Night Print Options

Van Gogh’s Starry Night — Prints Available

Browse Starry Night Print Options

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