by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

This is a follow-up article to The Art of Re-Creation and Solitude. If you haven’t read those essays yet, I recommend you start there. Both of these articles are excerpts from my upcoming book The Sovereign Artist: The liberating power of the creative act.

The soul and nature are carved from the same substance. That’s why, traditionally, we journey into nature to find our “true nature.” Attention to nature is the most effective re-creation method. Artists typically know this intuitively and that’s why most artists paint landscapes from time to time. The creative person almost can’t help but feel drawn toward nature; for their soul recognizes itself. Even the busiest modern person will occasionally stop and admire a beautiful sunset and, even in that briefest of moments, something will stir in his heart. If you wish to be truly born again, spend time in nature; for the very word nature is descendent from the Latin natus which means, “to be born.”

Combining your re-creation methods with nature makes the Self discovery process more effective. For example, meditating in nature will lead to wondrous insights. There is a reason traditional rites of passage typically include a journey of solitude into nature.

In modern society, we are no longer taught how to mature through these important rites of passage. That’s why, in many ways, we are a society of adolescents who never grow up.

But creatives cannot be that way. You must be in the world, but not of it. We, creatives, must grow up. We must mature into true adulthood. We must integrate our shadows and release our souls into full creative expression. We must create our own rites of passage and, in our leisure time, walk the path into true adulthood.

The true adult combines mature skill and discernment with the wondrous eyes of a child. And, if we wish to become a true adult, we must learn the lesson, through faith and experience, that leisure time is just as important, even more important, than constant “productive” activity. Knowing and pursuing this is the mark of the true master.

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A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

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The real art work happens alone in the studio; in silence and isolation.

The creative act itself — that bringing something into being, ex nihilo — cannot be outsourced or shared. No one can see Truth for you and nobody one can make the marks at the easel for you.

But the myth of the lone artist becomes dangerous when it is extended too far; for the Sovereign Artist does not reject the world. Instead, she learns how to move within the market-economy without losing herself. It is not a compromise to seek out those who resonate with our work; nor is it weakness to seek a community of colleagues with which to share ideas. In fact, it is a strength that accelerates the progress of the Sovereign Artist.

The Two Economies, Revisited

If you’ve followed my writing, you know that I have talked of the two economies.

There is the soul economy — where the work comes from.
And there is the market economy — where the work must live.

Artists sometimes feel forced to choose between them; to either “stay pure and unseen,” or to enter the market and feel themselves gravitating toward what performs, what sells, and what gets attention. It is difficult to resist audience capture.

Artists must learn to stand at the edge and straddle these two vastly different economies. The market-economy forms the horizontal while the soul-economy forms the vertical and, together, they construct the cross upon which the true artist must sacrifice herself voluntarily. Her Art must be her true passion, and our passions are those things we are willing to sacrifice ourselves for. As always, the key that balances the two is found where they cross, at our heart, and that balance is constructed with love.

Learning the difference between the two economies will enhance both the artist’s peace of mind and her pocketbook. Knowing the difference between these two economies will help an artist to not feel rejected when a soulful piece doesn’t sell. And, it will help her understand why some pieces sell easily and others do not.

Mastering this balance allows the artist enters the market-economy and yet, to remain grounded in the soul-economy.

Why Most Marketing Feels Wrong

The reason marketing art often feels unnatural to so many artists is not because artists are incapable of it. It’s because most marketing advice is created for and by those who don’t work primarily in the soul-economy.

A market-economy orientation assumes that:

• You are chasing attention

• You are optimizing for reach

• You are willing to adapt your work to demand

From a purely market-economy standpoint, that logic works — and artists feel the terrible cost of doing so immediately, so they pull back, they dabble half-heartedly, or they try to force themselves into systems that drain the life out of their art practice.

The Right Evironment

There’s a saying that goes, “if you can’t change your friends, change your friends.” I would say the same thing about marketing advice.

It’s not really better search engine marketing or an optimized social media strategy that you’re missing. It’s that your not living and working within the right kind of supportive environment. What you need is a place that supports you. A place where your work comes first, where artists are revered, and where marketing is looked at as connection not tactics. You need a place where prospects are considered people, and even friends, and are not considered “eyeballs” to be “monetized.”

Older artists may remember working in such a way, but younger artists — who’ve grown up in the shadow of extractive tech companies who seek to steal your attention above everything — may not have ever seen such magic. Once you see this other, more human, way of working, you can’t unsee it.

The FASO Marketing Circle

This is exactly why the FASO Marketing Circle exists.

The FASO Marketing Circle is not another course, and it’s not another set of tactics. We do have guides, courses, and tactics but those are secondary.

The primary function of the FASO Marketing Circle is to serve as a living environment that supports artists.

And FASO member becomes part of it.

Inside The FASO Marketing Circle, something subtle but powerful happens.

You learn:

• How other serious artists navigate the same tensions

• What actually works over time (not what spikes for a week)

• How consistency compounds when it’s grounded in reality

• How well-known artists have navigated the two economies successfully

And, most importantly, you begin to recalibrate your sense of what is normal, because the truth is, most artists (and most of us in general) are surrounded — online and off — by noise in the form of hot takes, growth hacks, and short-term thinking.

The FASO Marketing Circle cuts through that and, instead of noise, we bring you the real music — the ideas that work to promote art; the ideas upon which an entire art career can be built.

It is kind of like the light side of the Force. What our community brings is not as easy and seductive as the dark side. The community is quieter, more grounded, more supportive, more powerful and, ultimately, far more effective.

You Are Not Building an Audience. You Are Finding Your People.

You’ve been sold a lie. You’ve been told to build a “personal brand” so that you can “monetize your audience.” You’re not a brand and you don’t have an audience. You are a person, an artist, with a style and a reputation. Let’s bring humanity back into the discussion for a change.

There is a fundamental difference between building an audience and finding your people.

The first is extractive, the second is is relational. The former is driven by metrics. The latter is driven by resonance. An audience lives in the market-economy. Your people live in the soul-economy.

The Sovereign Artist understands this intuitively, but often lacks a structure that supports it in practice.

That structure is part of what FASO provides.

We don’t provide only tools to send emails, to update a website, or to send New Art Alerts. We also provide a framework—and a community—that reinforces the right orientation over the long run.

There is a paradox here: To become Sovereign, you must stop outsourcing your strategy and marketing, but, importantly, that does not mean you stop learning from others. It means you must choose your influences carefully.

Ideally, you place yourself in environments that are supportive of the real work of artists. And that’s exactly what the FASO Marketing Circle does.

We don’t tell you who to be. We help you stay who you are while engaging with the world in a way that actually works.

FASO Spring Offer - 52% Off Your First Year

If you’ve been circling this, now’s the time. Even if you have a website, this is a good time to move it to a place where it will actually support your career. Most artist websites gather cobwebs because they have no support and are too hard to update. Updating a FASO site with new work is no harder than posting an image to Instagram.

And we’re running a spring deal — 52% off your first year of FASO.

That gives you the full platform and puts you inside the FASO Marketing Circle from day one.

No tricks. No long explanation. Just a better environment to do the work and get it seen.

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PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

Learn the magic of marketing with us here at FASO!
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For today’s episode we sat down with Emma Kalff, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90–95% of her income from her art after years of gradual building, side jobs, and business education. She began in sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her, and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts. Her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered, dreamlike paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically rather than from strict pre-planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large 30x40 inch linen paintings—“who, what, when, where, why”—that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically, and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business: balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities, and not waiting passively to be “discovered.” Throughout the conversation, she is honest about the psychological challenges—discipline, burnout, distraction from social media—while still affirming that this open-ended, uncertain time offers artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and Patreon to stay updated on her work!

Emma’s FASO site:
emmakalff.com/

Sign up for Emma’s Newsletter!
emmakalff.com/page/49408/newsletter-signup

Emma’s Patreon:
patreon.com/cw/EmmaKalff

Emma’s Social Media:
instagram.com/emmakalff/

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Transcript:

Emma Kalff: 0:00

That’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere. And it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, yeah, you’re running a business, and you live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Emma Kalf, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90 to 95% of her income from her art. After years of gradual building site jobs and business education, she began in Sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts, her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered dream like paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically, rather than from strict pre planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large, 30 by 40 inch linen paintings, who, what, when, where and why, that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business, balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities and not passively waiting to be discovered throughout the conversation, Emma is honest about the psychological challenges, discipline, burnout, distraction from social media, while still affirming that this open ended, uncertain time offers Artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and patreon to stay updated on her work. Welcome Emma to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

Emma Kalff: 2:32

I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:36

Yeah, I’m excited to have you because I love your work, I think there’s something so unique about the vibe in your work. The general sort of theme that just permeates through all of them is this very otherworldly, very dreamlike. And I’ve never seen paintings quite like that before, so I’m very excited to pick your brain about how they have come to be. So thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you, yeah, yeah, of course. But before we dive into your beautiful work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Emma Kalff: 3:16

Yeah. So I’m Emma Kulp. I live in southwestern Colorado, in a super tiny rural town of 1000 people, I work largely for myself. I’d say like 90 95% of my income is from art. Took me a while to get there, definitely, like, not an overnight thing by any means. I let’s see, I’m in my early 30s now. I started out, went to college in Boston, at Boston University, studied sociology, and then realized pretty quickly that social work wasn’t really going to work for me, because it’s really emotionally taxing and draining, and I kind of found myself all the time in college. I was just in the Arts Building looking at the paintings, because they had this big hall with all the the painting majors work, and I was always in there looking at everything. And yeah, I graduated, and I bought a one way ticket to New Orleans. Didn’t really have a plan, but ended up modeling, figure modeling in art classes and stuff, and just started to become completely enthralled in the art world. Because every time I modeled, I got, like, a little lesson, and I got to watch everybody draw and learn. And so I got hooked really quickly, and I ended up studying at the Academy of Fine Arts in New Orleans after modeling there under alcipus osals. He actually recently passed. He passed in September. Unfortunately, I. But yeah, I had a really, I was fortunate. I had a really, really good education in the arts, classical education, and very rigorous and after that, I did mostly landscape work, a lot of plein air. And then I started, more recently, layering the figure into my work, and I mostly paint oil on wood panel. And, yeah, that’s what I’m doing now.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:34

Yeah, yeah. I think, Oh, I love that. There’s nothing better than, you know, hearing someone who very much. Like, didn’t realize, like, Oh, this is where I’m going, and just went with the flow, because that’s what it really feels like. Because it goes to show that sometimes, you know, our intuition just tends to work in magical ways, or even just the things we naturally gravitate towards. And hearing that you were a model, I love that, because, of course, I studied at academies, and there was nothing more fun to than, like, talking to the model. And usually they’re always artists. They’re, they tend to be musicians, actors, performers, also very, very artistically oriented. So I think it’s really cool that you were able to, you know, get in there and also like, you know, peek at, like, what people are doing, and, like, listen to the lessons, and then decide, okay, now I’m gonna do this because I’m sure it must have given you also a little bit of an idea of what it was going to be like to study how to paint, right?

Emma Kalff: 6:30

Yeah, that’s a good point, actually, yeah. And it, you know, New Orleans, the depth of the art world is very intense, like, there’s a lot of different pockets that you can sort of vanish into in the art world. And so I got, yeah, I got an inside look behind the scenes in like two lane, but also like private artist studios and like sculptor studios painters, like random little offshoot drawing groups that people tried to start that didn’t go anywhere. And, like, it was just a very broad sort of education in a way that I didn’t even, I don’t think I even realized that at the time. But, yeah, it was very, it was very cool,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:16

yeah, yeah. And also just, I think, the really cool thing that I think you experienced, that not many artists kind of think about, also, is getting that insight about the actual structure of these schools. Because sometimes, you know, someone would be like, Oh, I really want to go study here, but then they don’t really, they can’t really visualize or imagine, like, the actual way that these schools are structured, like when you’re working with the model, and then when you’re working on still life or working on or working on another project, it’s a very it’s kind of rigid, it’s very specific. So knowing that is very helpful, because you know what to expect. Yeah, and do you find that you always wanted to follow the path of the artist? Or was that like, you know, it just kind of emerged as you went on,

Emma Kalff: 8:04

yeah, the more I look back on my life, I’m like, I don’t think I could have done anything else. For one thing, I’m really bad at working for other people. I’m like, I don’t have that personality type. Like, I can’t show up at an office at nine o’clock in the morning dressed in a way that I wouldn’t normally dress, and talking in a way that I wouldn’t normally talk like I I cannot do that, unfortunately, so. But also, yeah, from the time I was really little, I think this is the only thing that I really wanted to do. And my mom used to take us to like I grew up outside of Philadelphia, and she used to take us to the Philly Museum of Art all the time. And I would, I’d have these almost like spiritual experiences in front of the paintings at a really young age, like, I mean, just huge paintings, and I would just stand in front of them, and almost like cry when I was even like, I don’t know, 1012, 13 years old. And, yeah, it’s interesting. I was always really attached to painting, and then sort of falling into the art world, you develop this other relationship to it, where I have a more technical view of it now, and, like, I don’t go to a museum and cry in front of the paintings anymore, which is sort of, it’s a bit of a loss, but it’s also just growing into, I think, being an artist and like building a career out of it, you Just start to stand at a different angle towards it. But yeah, I the more I think about it, the less I think I would have done anything else with my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:51

Yeah, I feel like a lot of artists relate to that, also the I can’t imagine working regular quotations. I. Job because I say the exact same thing. It’s like, I don’t like working for someone else. I don’t like being told what to do, because it there’s something about it just feels like micromanagement. So it’s like, it’s funny. But then at the same time, I think being your own boss can be really tough too, because, like I mentioned to you before, it’s like, I hope, I hope your boss is nice to you. Because I think as artists, we tend to be kind of, kind of rough with ourselves. It’s, it’s a bit of a it’s kind of, it’s a double edged sword, because, of course, we want to reach for excellence, and the way to reach for excellence is by, like, working hard towards it. But I think, you know, it’s also useful to not overdo it, because then, if you’re burnt out from putting yourself into so many roles and trying to do so many things, you end up, you know, struggling, and then you can’t work for like, a month or two or a year, because you’re just so burned out. But yeah, I totally relate to that. And then even also that sort of like loss of innocence, of like, Oh, I know how this is painted. It’s no longer, quote, unquote magical anymore, but at the same time, yeah, and it can feel kind of sad, but then you can still kind of look at the images that inspire you anyway, and still be fascinated by them, maybe not in the same sense, because I totally relate to that too, but you still get that feeling of, huh? I wonder how they did that aspect. I wonder how they painted this little piece, what pigments that they use, because it becomes like this almost dissection of understanding of like composition and storytelling and all these things that add complexity. And you can still look at the image and think, I remember when I used to cry in front of this, but at the same time, though, it’s like, oh, I mean, I won’t, but, I mean, I’ll cry, but it’s because I want to paint like, because it like moves me in the same way anymore, but it’s kind of cool, because that means you feel like it’s reachable to an extent. I feel like when, when we’re, you know, incapable of doing it, it does, you know, have a different feeling. But having that capability, it’s like, Oh, I’m gonna grab it. I’m gonna do it. If anything, it’s like, almost like motivational,

Emma Kalff: 12:18

yeah, that is true. It’s more of like a technical fascination than anything else, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:25

and speaking, actually also of ideas and creation. Where does an idea begin for you for your paintings?

Emma Kalff: 12:36

So, yeah, like I said, I went to this really classical school where it was a very one to one relationship. It was like, there’s a piece of fruit on the table at 2pm like, paint the piece of fruit on the table at 2pm don’t mess it up. You know, fix this. Fix that. It was like a very which was great. It was a very one to one relationship with what you were seeing and what you were painting. And I think that’s super important to develop that as an artist, because you’re actually learning the language. Like my teacher used to say, if you come out of an art school, somebody should be able to put something in front of you, any given object on the planet, and you should be able to paint it. And if they’re not teaching you that, then, like, what have you actually learned? So I’m, I’m super grateful for that. But after I got out of school, I did sort of want to deviate from that, I guess, in my own way, and move into, like, more layered work that wasn’t such a one to one relationship to reality. And I had a teacher in school, Gus Hoffman, and he he was always talking about how he builds a composition as he goes and he doesn’t start with a single idea. He just sort of like, goes, follows it and lets it click into place. And so I started exploring that, basically where something starts for me is usually a photo. I always am taking pictures of everything. I try to take a lot of candid photos of people like this is my sister, just like eating something on the side of the road at one point, and that that background is different landscape that I layered in. But yeah, I really like candid images of people. Also, where I live in Colorado is super beautiful. It’s it looks like the Swiss Alps out here. It’s like this huge mountain range, the San Juans with the snow on it, and like, everywhere you turn, it’s just really beautiful. So it’s a combination of photos and the landscape, because I have such a long history of. Of plein air. I am always driving around with an easel in my car, and I always have a couple, like, I probably have three or four panels in my car right now. I have a bunch of paint and stuff. So, like, I pull over whenever I see something I like, and have some time, I’ll pull over and paint it, and then I’ll take that landscape back into the studio and layer stuff into it. Don’t layer a figure. And then sometimes I’ll take something out, or I’ll change the color palette, or just sort of keep moving like that until it sort of clicks into base. I very rarely start with an idea and then execute it exactly how I’ve drawn it. I have a really hard time that I usually kind of let it unfold, which, you know, is it’s a sort of a double edged sword, because I have paintings that took me, like, three years to complete, because they were they were gone over so many times that you wouldn’t recognize the original image if you saw it to the last image, like the final painting that you see, there’s like three other paintings underneath that. But, yeah, that’s, that’s mostly how I work now.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:22

Sorry, I was muted. Yeah, no, I love that, because that it’s, I feel like, in terms of process, you mentioned a lot of things there that were very important, which is, you know, the over planning type of stuff that, like we artists tend to do, or the approach of, like, trying to organically allow a piece to develop as you work with it. I think those are, like, those two parts of of the coin that are, I guess, like we all experience and experiment with those types of ways of working at some point, because the rigid over planning, like you said, like, it just sometimes it just doesn’t work out the same way. Like, like, you lay everything how you think it’s supposed to go, and then it doesn’t. It just doesn’t, like, maybe the arm isn’t in the right place, like, you imagine it in a different spot, but it just physically can’t do that. But then I really love that idea of just allowing something to develop, or even, like a halfway kind of, like what your instructor mentioned, where it’s like, oh, I start with like, maybe this one thing, and then it just comes together. I think that’s really awesome. And then currently with your work, because you created a really cool series that’s very much based on some sort of work that you did, where you went around and you did, I believe it was, it was like, farming, yeah, yeah. I really love those pieces. And then, because it’s so there’s so there’s something very much, like, tied into memory and like, how you know, it’s really cool because, like, even in the painting showing your background there of your sister, I wouldn’t have thought that she wasn’t in that landscape, which I think is really cool too, because you have that’s one of those really difficult things to do as an artist, is to be able to make your figure feel like they’re in that landscape and not like a sticker, which tends to happen sometimes. So I think you’ve really pulled that off, and especially also in the other paintings I’ve seen of yours with people you’re welcome. What are you trying like? What’s your current question that you are chasing right now in your work? What is What are you trying to figure out in your work right now, whether it’s, you know, process or subject matter?

Emma Kalff: 18:48

Yeah, it’s funny talking about questions, because I’m actually working on a series of 530, by 40 inch paintings that are each painting is a question. So there’s who, what, when, where and why, are the five paintings. And it’s my first time working on linen. Actually, maybe since art school, I sort of moved away from campus, but I’m on linen now, and I actually, I really, really like it, but it’s sort of a metaphor, I guess, for this time that we live in like, I feel very, almost like I’m in this existential crisis where I’m a little paralyzed and I don’t know, like what to do or where to go or how I’m supposed to move anymore, because we’re in this socially and politically, like, highly volatile and very transitory space. It feels like, like we don’t have a cultural moment or landmark almost in history to compare to this, because the influence of technology is so heavy. So it’s kind of like we’re all learning how to walk in a way, like how to figure this out and so kind of just. Asking these like super basic questions, feels like a starting place where I can sort of project my ideas onto and I actually got this book. It’s like the dictionary of archetype and symbol in art history when I started this series, because I thought, you know, like we aren’t connected to in the same way that we are in such a confusing time. It’s it that translates into the art world too, right? Like you used to be able to look at a painting and literally read what the artist was saying. It wasn’t like up for interpretation. It wasn’t it was either like commissioned by the church as a direct commission of a certain religious icon or story, or it was commissioned by a wealthy patron who wanted the specific sort of image of their family or what have you. It was very top down, and it was very direct. And even like you can go back and look at old still lifes, and it’s like, in this book, it’s like each object that you look at has this specific meaning, like a candle, if you put a candle, it was like the symbol for the fleeting nature of life. Or you put a deck of cards, and that was the crazy thing to me. Is a deck of cards used to be the symbol for Vice, which I’m like, if you put a deck of cards in a painting. Now, I think people would like that would totally not connect. That would completely not someone would not be like, Oh, you live a life of vice. Like, you know, it was more be like, Oh, this is kind of a fun touch or something. So I think that’s all really interesting. And I I started to look through this dictionary and sort of incorporate some of the symbols into my paintings, and sort of exploring putting those old symbols that has such a concrete meaning into a contemporary context where that meaning isn’t really there anymore, but you can still use the symbol. And I guess I’m thinking about, I don’t think that we’ll ever go back to a time when there’s such a strict definition, visual definition, to things in painting, but I’m curious where we end up a few decades from now, and like, whether we will sort of loosely reinvent some new symbols of meaning, or if we’ll just keep moving in this, like open ended direction, which the open ended direction is great, like, I’m very grateful to be an artist in A time where you can do what you want. And I think I’m, I’m doing what I’m doing, because I’m living in this time. Like, if I was living even 50 or 100 or 200 years ago, I would be completely different, probably. But yeah, I’m, I’m glad that we live in this open ended time. I just think it’s, it’s like, in such a stark contrast to where it was, and it’s, yeah, it’s interesting to to just compare and like, think about where it was and where it’s going,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:14

yeah, yeah. And I feel like, I, I totally relate to that. There’s nothing more fun than like, coming across like, oh, this. This object over here actually means this. And one of my favorite ones was, like, if a portrait painter painted someone and then they put a fly on them, it was supposed to mean that they were a terrible person, or, like, they had, like, some sketchy thing, because it’s like, huh, I would totally sneak that into a painting if I ever did like a painting of someone I didn’t particularly like or wanted to represent as like a negative figure. So I totally love that. I’m also very much into, like, the symbolism of old paintings. And it is, it is a great pity that we don’t quite have that anymore, in the same way, you know, because time goes on and things change, I feel like the equivalent, maybe for a generation, is memes, where sounds have meaning. Now, where you hear it is like, Oh, that. That’s the sound when someone’s really disappointed that the thing they bought turned out to be bad, or, you know, stuff like that. I feel like that’s maybe, like the newest stuff that’s going around. But it is really wonderful, like you said, to be in a time where you can do anything on a canvas, and it will most likely be appreciated and seen by tons of people because internet, which also brings me to something you mentioned, which is we are definitely in unprecedented times. And I heard a person describe it as we are building an airplane in the sky, and we don’t know if it’s going to work, because that’s the repercussions that it’s had on, like, you know, people’s self esteem, like children, for example, the addictive qualities of Instagram and social media and all these things. These are all fascinating things. And then, of course, AI like, there’s. So much happening in our time that we just we don’t know what to do with it. So I think it is, it is a little bit like how you said, an existential crisis. I also feel the same. I also feel like, oh my god, this tiny black box that I hold every day kind of freaks me out. But also I can read stuff that’s really cool about paintings and look at paintings and these things that I love, it’s almost like a love hate relationship, which really sucks, but I totally relate to that. So I’m really excited to see your paintings, because I bet it’ll be a really cool interpretation of, like, different symbols, and I’m very, very curious now do you when do you think you’ll have these completed? Or do you not have, like, a particular timeline for them?

Emma Kalff: 25:47

Um, my loose timeline right now is dropping them in July. I’m hoping that that will give me I have all the concepts, and most of them are like, 50, 60% of the way there, except for who I’m getting really stumped on who, because I don’t want to hit the nail too hard on the head or, like, make it to like, yeah, too, yeah. Like a person with a mask on or something. So I’m trying to, I’m looking for ways to make that one a little more subtle, but I’m thinking I’ll drop them in July. I’m going to put them out through my newsletter, which I’ll give you the link and yeah, so if you’re interested in that, just sign up at my newsletter and you’ll get first dibs on that. I’m really excited about it, and they’re pretty large scale for me, like I, because I lived on the road and did plein air on the road for about a year. I got really used to doing I did like, I think it was 40 little eight by 10 panels, and because that could just stick them in my car, you know, they were the little, thin little panels. So I’m, I’m very happy to have a studio now and maybe doing some bigger work.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:04

Yeah, yeah, I feel like that’s like, oh, maybe not every artist, but I think most people that I’ve met, we always feel like I want to do big. Want to do big. It’s a challenge. Just more space. There’s more detail that needs to be input, right? Because they’re the smaller paintings, they can be very detailed, right? But the bigger ones, the challenge is making it look good. Because I like, if you’re doing something life size, for example, it can be, you know, really tough to really make it work. And at that point, of course, having a studio space is very, very important. You can’t really do that out of your car, yeah, but, you know, having the space to step back and, like, look at the if you have a model, or look at the image, and then look at painting, make sure that it’s looking, you know, optically, all right, yeah, that’s really exciting. It’s always fun to hear, you know, artists like challenging themselves as well. Like, oh, my next thing is a really cool set of pieces. But then also, like, with a the extra part of, like, challenging your technique with size as well, whether it’s smaller or bigger. I think that’s really one of those things that a lot of us should be pursuing as artists as well. You know that challenge trying to find something more, something new for ourselves with what we already know. And I also wanted to ask you, because you did mention before that you make a good 90 to 95% on your work, which is really awesome for you, what was the turning point that made you believe that you can make a living from your work, and did you have, like, a specific mindset that you have to change in order to get there?

Emma Kalff: 28:49

Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, so I moved out to Colorado in 2020, like, right when covid hit, and I worked for a bit on a farm, and then I was unemployed, and I took this artist Summit, this three day artist Summit, with the professional artist Institute. You know Miguel Mayer, no know that name? Yeah, he runs this. It’s called the professional artist Institute, and I think I got it in my email, and I was kind of just living in this, like, covid borderland of like, these long days that ran together and I had nothing to do. And I thought, Okay, I’m going to take this summit. And I sat on my laptop for three days, and they went over all these really fascinating, like very concrete aspects of the art world, the professional art world that I had never thought about, like I had been selling my painting for bucks, you know, on the road, or 60 bucks or whatever. Like, I wasn’t doing that with the aim of, like supporting myself completely. It was just sort of a side. Hustle, and yeah, so I took that, and then I got kind of hooked, and I signed up for like online. You can get this package of online courses through the Professional Arts Institute. So it really was just like hitting the right resource at the right time, and I still worked on the side for three, four years after that, before I, like, went full time. But, yeah, I really, I really don’t have a business skill set naturally. Like, I think every artist is gifted in a certain area. You know, like you have the you have the technical side of like, your competence in making the sort of art that you want to make, and then you have the business side. And like both sides have a ton of individual skills that you have to learn. And it does. It will do it like serves you well to identify, like, where your strengths are. And then the good thing is, you can always learn and make up for what you don’t inherently have, because we live in the internet age, like the internet sucks, but it has helped me tremendously to like, be able to take classes and learn from people. I’m always in a class, like, right now I’m in Lennon bone. He runs stop the starving artist, and that’s all about, like, learning how to sell online, because I’ve always had, like, very local clients, and I want to, like, learn how to sell on the internet now. So yeah, it was really just getting lucky and finding that resource and being like, Oh, this is actually I don’t have to float in this nebulous cloud of of waiting to be discovered or hoping that someone’s going to bump into me on the street and take a big interest in my work and become a patron. Like, I feel like that’s sort of the cloud that I was floating in before I started taking classes. And I think that’s, that’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way, and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere, and it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, it’s, it’s a business, like you’re running, you know, yeah, you’re running a business. And we live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:48

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah. And I think that’s also part of that starving artist myth is the something’s gonna land on your lap, and that’s not, that’s not how it works, unless you’re, you know, already incredibly wealthy and don’t have to worry about your bills, and maybe your wealthy parents have good connections, right? Because that’s oftentimes what happens in certain parts of the art world. No hate to them. I mean, it must be really fortunate to be in that situation. But for for. The 80% of us who are not in that situation, maybe even 90, 99% of us who are not in that situation, we have to find other ways, right? Like, how you’re saying, like, find resources online. Those seem really great. Actually jotted them down, yeah and yeah, just that’s part of it as well. You know, being proactive in it, because it is, yeah, like, the idea of, like, the Bohemian artist who just, like, lives in poverty, and like, you know, this very like Oscar Wilde type of, like, it’s like, you can, you can do that too, if you want. But for those of us who want to have food on the table and maybe, hopefully a mortgage someday, can’t, can’t really do that. Can’t have the bohemian life. So yeah, that’s awesome. And then, since you do primarily live from your work, what are, what are some ways that you’ve been balancing your economy as an artist, and how has that experience been for you?

Emma Kalff: 36:00

What does that phrase mean, balancing your economy.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:02

So, like, you know, like, the, for example, if you want to, like, if you know how much your your rent is, right? Like, do you know? Like, Oh, I gotta sell X paintings, or I gotta do this. Or, like, how have you been managing that aspect of living from your work?

Emma Kalff: 36:19

Yeah, that’s fair. Um, I’m fortunate. I live in a rent controlled space, so my rents not very high. I I would be really struggling if my rent was like $2,000 or whatever most people are paying. But yeah, it’s a mix of commission work, like in a given year, sometimes I’ll have a lot of commissions back to back. Sometimes I won’t also something that helps balance it is to have a wide range of prices. So, like, my original work varies from like 600 to like this one is, like, the biggest one I’ve done, and it’s 13 grand. So there’s a very wide array of price points that people can pick, and then I’ll do like, print releases too. So it’s just figuring out, like, who your buyer is and what they may or may not be able to shell out. And also I usually, if I’m doing a commission like, I’ll let people pay in parts. So sometimes I’ll have a commission that pays out over, like, six months or a year, and it might not be a huge sum, like every month, but it’s still adding into the pot. And then I do classes. I do, like individual, one on one plein air workshops. And what else do I do? I have Patreon where I put, like, a little easy, like simple beginner painter lesson every two weeks. And so with all of those things combined, it’ll shake out every month that I’ve got enough. But I think the important thing is, like having, having a bunch of irons in the fire is really, has helped me, and it’s also like psychologically easier. I think if you have like, 10 Things going it’s kind of scattered brain. But it’s also like, if one thing fails, you’re not you’re not completely bottoming out and being like, oh my god, I can’t do this. It’s like, okay, I’m just gonna throw one more thing on the fire. If it doesn’t work out, it’s fine. But like, that way you always have sort of a rotating group of things that you’re that you can possibly be making money from. And yeah, it helps to balance your like expectations and not be so like having to succeed in any one area, and like, certain things can ebb and flow. Like, if you don’t have, like, I haven’t had a, I have a commission right now, but last year was pretty slow, you know. So then it’s like, the other things can start to take up. And, yeah, it just sort of like, goes in a rotation,

Laura Arango Baier: 39:18

yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s another really great point, you know, you can’t, like, every especially, you know, when you’re working for yourself, and it’s just more organic. In that sense, there are going to be, you know, times of like, Oh, I’m making a good amount, and times of like, oh, okay, I’m not making as much. But you know, if you’re smart, right, and you live below your means and you’re saving money, you won’t be too afraid of, like, Oh no, I’m not selling enough this month. Like, how you said it’s good to have, like, not all your eggs in one basket, because you drop that basket and you’re kind of kind of screwed. So it’s good to have that. Yeah, that’s a really great point. And of course, it does help to have to live in a place that is not killing your. Bank account. Because I think right now that’s also one of the big, big problems that a lot of artists are facing right now. But you know, at least the internet is a wonderful source as well for okay, I can literally live on an island somewhere and still be able to as long as it has a like a UPS or a FedEx or DHL, I can survive, you know, yeah, but yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, too, what so far has been the greatest challenge you have faced in your career as an artist? I

Emma Kalff: 40:43

I think it’s like, staying disciplined in the studio and like, artists are notorious for, like, we only want to work when we’re super inspired, and then when we’re not, it’s like, oh, I don’t want to do this. Like, and I’m, I’m certainly no exception to that. So I definitely have times where I’m just, like, really burned out. I don’t want to go in the studio, I don’t want to paint. I don’t have any exciting ideas going on and having the discipline and, like, making yourself show up is really hard. And sort of in the same vein, it’s been really hard to like all these little incalculable things, right? Like, how long is my work day supposed to be? How quantitatively, how many paintings am I supposed to produce in a month or a year? How many are supposed to go to a gallery? How many am I supposed to like hang on to for myself? How many should be? You know, it’s like when you when you work for someone else, all of those things are sort of taken out of the equation. And it’s a it is an easier life in a lot of respects, because you work a set amount of hours, and then you know exactly what you’re going to be paid and when you’re going to be paid. And to navigate the art world on your own is hard, because you can put in 10 hours of work on a painting and not be paid for that 10 hours for 10 years, right? Like a painting can sell 10 years later, or it can sell next week. And so navigating that alone can be, it can be really tough. And also, like, I think we live in this, well, America, where I am is like, very it’s, it’s super workaholic culture, and then it’s like, you know, you have to balance like, Okay, how much do I want to do and how much of a Break do I want to give myself? And like, yeah. So I think the hardest part has been answering all of those like little questions about, How is this supposed to go? How do I structure my work day, and how do I keep myself, like, disciplined, to where I continue to do it and I don’t burn myself out, but I still produce a set amount of work. Like, that’s all been pretty difficult.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:27

Yeah, I think that’s no matter what I mean, no matter what type of self employment you’re in. I think that’s like, the key, key, key thing is, you know, no, there’s no one to tell you what to do. Like you said, there’s no convenient like, oh, just show up at the office. They tell me what I’m supposed to get done, and then I go home right which, my opinion, that’s a little bit like putting all your eggs in one basket anyway, because it’s, you know, that company goes under, you’re kind of screwed. But, yeah, I think that’s, I totally agree with that challenge, because I also feel that because, I mean, when you’re in a place where, like, you can literally do anything in your time, right? And you have a whole day where you can choose, it becomes very challenging. Because, of course, we have these distracting little beep boop boxes that we have in our pockets that love to be a time suck. But then also I relate that to that too. You know that difficult, like, Man, I’m not inspired today, or like, kind of tired, or like, I just am not feeling it. But you know, still having to show up, I think that’s probably a hurdle we will always face forever as artists. Because unless you know, someone’s really on a roll, and they can keep that role going their entire career, that’s awesome. I doubt that that’s humanly possible. I think most of us, we we have to take vacations too, or, like, actually, Kim across. Asked an article recently by from a study that was done on creativity and how being bored and like, taking time away from like, if you just finished like, a bunch of projects, like, taking some time away from them, and like, let your brain kind of settle down and refresh it really, really helps with coming up with even more ideas like, so there’s, like you said, I think we have since we do live in in a culture, at least in North America, and I would say in some parts in Europe, as well, of productivity, first, productivity first. Like creating working, working, working. It burns you out precisely because there’s no real space to pause. Like, I’m sure many of people listening have also experienced like, you have a break and you immediately fill that break with something to do that has to get done, which, unfortunately, we do also exist in that world where, like, oh, I finished my job. Now I can finally clean my dishes or do my laundry. But there is, you know, some aspect of, like, giving yourself, like, time to just read a book, or, like, sit down in the silence and not listen to anything that also really helps.

Emma Kalff: 46:11

Yeah, I really miss being bored like I, I really miss being like a teenager and these like I, when I was in high school, the summer, days were just eternal, and it was like, oh my god, I could, like, rip my eyes out of my head, but that’s so important, you know, like, and it’s, it’s really a Herculean effort now to make yourself be bored, like, to actively be Like, I’m not going to sit on the phone and I’m going to sit on my couch and, like, stare at the wall until I’m, like, really exhausted from that. I, yeah, I’ve been thinking about just getting a flip phone and, like, leaving my my smartphone in the studio, just as, like, a this is a work thing. Like, I’m going to build for Instagram or whatever, and take pictures for that, but like, sort of walking it away to not have it constantly accessible. I’ve been toying with that, but, yeah, that’s another thing that’s it’s really hard, because now that that eye, like the eye of the camera, is in the studio. It lives in the studio. If you’re, like, that sort of painter, I know not everybody is. But like, I make a lot of videos, and I think a lot of people do, and it’s like, when you when you bring that in, it takes a lot of effort to only film and, like, not let it distract you from working. And that’s it’s really it’s really hard, and at the same time, it’s super cool that you know you can build your this is like the first time in the history of humanity that you can build your own personalized audience that is literally made up of people who specifically want to see what you’re doing. And with the touch of a button, you can say whatever you want to them at any second of any day, like that. Is really cool. It’s really cool. And I think it’s like, a very important tool, but, yeah, like learning how to balance, it is

Laura Arango Baier: 48:15

it’s very difficult. Yeah, yeah. I relate. I relate to that, especially what you just said about, you know, having a camera in the studio, because it does, in some ways, it shifts the energy of the room, because now it’s like, oh man, did I position the camera correctly? Did it like, the is it in the right spot? Or, Oh no, it’s out of focus, or, Oh no, my camera died and I didn’t notice. There’s so many little extra distractions that end up happening. It’s almost better to just have like a surveillance camera or something like, oh, like, because it just, it’s a it’s so distracting to like, Okay, I’m recording on my phone. Oh no. My phone ran out of like, memory. Oh, no, I gotta get, like, a, gosh, like a cloud service or something like, it’s, it’s so much extra stuff, you know, like the whole content creation hamster wheel, as I’m beginning to call it these days. It just feels like it can sometimes be a double edged sword, much like what we’ve discussed, because one, it’s awesome. You can connect with people who can observe, you know what you’re doing and learn from it, or feel inspired by it. Because there’s so many of us out there who do you know go on the internet specifically to connect with other people and be inspired by other people’s projects or other people’s ideas. But then if it starts taking over too much, then it feels like an obligation, and it almost feels like, oh, I want to go into the studio, but I have to record this, but I don’t really want to deal with the tripod and the camera placement, and then, oh no, I bumped into it. Because it was so close to me when I was painting this one part, and now I gotta re record, but then I already painted that, like, it’s just, oh, it is so frustrating. Like there’s like, it just feels like there’s no way. Although I did think of getting, like, those, you know, those really evil metal glasses that have the camera on them. I thought about getting just because I’m not gonna record other people out there. It’s just so convenient for painting. Yeah, it’s like, oh, boop. Now they’re on well,

Emma Kalff: 50:28

because then you film something from the side, but then it’s filmed on this weird like, I like, often will film something and then I look at it after I’ve recorded it, and I’m like, it’s so skewed, it doesn’t even make sense to post this. So then you have to, like, get your camera right here, and then you’re literally, like, painting like it’s crazy, awful.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:48

Yeah, I’ve seen in the early days, I think I saw I was, maybe it was Michael Klein. He did a video tutorial, but he had a GoPro, and it was okay. But I feel like his later videos are, of course, much, much better. The GoPro was a little bit like it just wouldn’t focus completely, or like it would move around a little too like, too much. But I feel like, yeah, that’s, you see, that’s like, one of those unique things that even when GoPros were much, much, much more popular, we were still trying to figure out how to record ourselves for people. So I yeah, hopefully we can find a good solution. Maybe we can all use those met a glasses and make people stop using them to record people who don’t want to be recorded. It’s like, oh, you should market this for artists who are trying to record themselves or stream. But, yeah, yeah. And then also, speaking of marketing, since you said, you know, you mentioned, you have quite a few things going at the same time. Do you find that there’s like, one thing that is one marketing thing, or one like, avenue of sales, almost like, you know, sales funnel, or any sort of like, of these irons that you keep that actually has been the most helpful for your career.

Emma Kalff: 52:08

I think it’s just good old fashioned, like talking to people. I read this thing a few years ago that was like getting out there and socializing and like going to our openings, or like going to the bar, and like talking about your work is not less important than like being in the studio. Like being in the studio, painting is not more important than that. If that’s what you’re trying to do is like, have a career. And I thought that that was really interesting. And I’ve started to like, it’s hard, right? It’s hard to, like talk about your art, because it feels sort of like you’re, like, showing off, or you’re tooting your own horn. Or, you know, it can feel very like self important. At least, I struggled with that, and like I used to when I lived in New Orleans, I had this license where you can sell in the French Quarter. There’s like, this huge raw iron fence around the St Louis Cathedral in the French Quarter, and you can get a license, and then 365, days a year, 24/7, you have this spot that you can set up on the fence and, like, hang your your paintings. And I did that, but I was really bad at it, because I couldn’t talk to people. Like I would just sit there and I would watch people, hundreds of people, it’s the French Quarter, hundreds of people come by every day. And I would watch people, and they would stop and look at my stuff, and then they would keep going. And it took me a long time to be like, Oh, it’s because I’m not talking to them. I didn’t think that, like, I was the sort of catalyst. I felt that the art would sort of like, do its own thing. But over I think I did that for like, two years, and over that time, I started realizing that people that talk and, like, put their stuff out there in a in a nice way for people and like, have a little chat. Those are the ones that are that are selling. And I, I do. I live in a really tiny town, I think I said population of 1000 but there are a lot of people here that love art, and there’s a lot of people with disposable income, there’s a lot of retired people, and so I think, like one of the big mistakes that I’ve made living out here is to underestimate that local the potential that local people might be interested in my work. Like, I think I was in this mindset of, oh, I have to get to New York, or I have to get in these galleries in LA or at least Denver or Santa Fe, I have to get into these urban places. But often, like, You’re the biggest proponent. Like. You’re the biggest sort of factor that that will help people connect, if that makes sense, and just sort of not caring about, like, looking stupid, and just talking about it until it feels natural, it did take a while, like, to figure out what I wanted to say and how to, how to, yeah, but I think just like, staying open and, you know, if someone is, like, expressing an interest in my work, I’ll be like, Oh, why don’t you come by the studio and, like, it doesn’t. It’s not to be like, Oh, do you want to buy this painting. It’s like, No, we’re gonna sit and like, I’ll make us some coffee and we’ll have a chat, and then maybe in a year, you’ll buy something, and maybe you won’t. And like, that’s fine, but like, we’ve had that chat. And, you know, you don’t even have to have, like, a studio. You can just sort of have people over in your living room and be like, these are my three paintings that I have, or whatever. Like, I think that that it doesn’t have to be this huge thing of, like, becoming this big artist in New York or whatever. Like, I think the times are changing, and you can really do it from wherever and like, just work with what you have.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:18

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you’re really emphasizing the local community aspect, because I’ve interviewed very many artists, and a good amount of them have focused first on local communities. And of course, I mean, I feel like it’s like, you become the community artist, right? Like You’re like the well known person in town, and people tend to really love that. You know, it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s our local artist. She does this, or he does that. And I’ve also, I lived on a tiny island of 1000 something. Maybe it was 2000 people tops, and they had, like, two local artists who were very, very beloved, and like, we’re sold so much whenever, like, tourists would come by. So it goes to show, you, know, really being part of some a small community, I think, is so much. It can be so much more fruitful than like New York City, because it’s easy to get lost in New York City, amongst other artists and amongst other people who are also just building, like, very surface level relationships, instead of, you know, becoming involved with community and becoming involved with like, Oh, hey, stop by my studio. Let’s hang out. Let’s have a coffee, right? That’s very different from like, Here’s my card. I hope you like my work, and then maybe that person just throws it out. Because, you know, I when I lived in New York City, that was very much the feeling you get there. Everyone’s really, really trying to make things work and get noticed by Gallery, and get like, 20 million rejections. But that’s, of course, part of it. But then, yeah, nurturing the local stuff is, is very fulfilling and underrated, also, because, you know, it is usually a lot less expensive to live in a smaller community than it is in New York City where, like, the rent, I think, has reached like $5,000 a month. Yeah, I think, but I think that’s for like a multiple bedroom household. Maybe, like a two bedroom. It’s insane. Yeah, hopefully it goes down when I was there. Was definitely not that. But, yeah, it’s definitely a much, much easier in a smaller community. And if you find a place kind of like how, you know, you find a nice place that you resonate with as well. You don’t just move to middle of nowhere, anywhere. I think it’s nice if it’s a place you actually do feel attracted to to some extent. Like you mentioned, you know, your surroundings are very beautiful, and that’s one of the important things that you’re in a place that you feel inspired by as well.

Emma Kalff: 58:54

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think. And it’s also like, I think galleries are really important structurally to the art world. And there’s a lot of, like, really awesome galleries that that sell work for artists and, like, help their career. But I think it’s also like, I used to think, Oh, if I just got in, like, if I just got in, like, my dream gallery, then I would be set. But it’s like, you know, you can get in the coolest, most badass gallery with the best reputation that has a ton of traffic in, like, New York or Chicago or something, and they maybe just don’t have chemistry with your work, and I can’t sell it. And it’s like, there’s something to be said for that too, where it’s like, I don’t know that goes back to having irons in the fire and being like, Okay, if this doesn’t work out, I’ll have something else. But I think the search for a gallery can be really long and difficult and like, yeah, just because it’s a gallery that you will idle. Eyes that carries a lot of artists that you admire doesn’t mean that they’re going to be able to work with you and sell your sell your stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:09

Yeah, yeah, that’s a I think that’s very important reality Chuck, because sometimes it’s even local galleries who like, do like much more to like, sell an artist work, because in the end, it isn’t even, like, the notoriety of the gallery. Or, like you said, like, Oh, my dream gallery, because they have my heroes in it. Like, yeah. But like, you know, sometimes it’s those big galleries that might not have enough, like, room in their roster to add another person. Or, like you said, they don’t resonate, or they can be your heroes, but what if your style is entirely different and just doesn’t fit in with a gallery as well. Like, there are so also, so many factors. So I think, yeah, that’s a very honest reality check right there. And I think that that also goes to show that it’s not surprising to be, like, rejected by galleries time and time again for that reason, because like, Oh, we don’t have space. Your work doesn’t resonate. Sometimes it’s even just a question of, like, Oh, you’re too early in your career, or your price range isn’t in our price range. Like, oftentimes it’s like, no, we’re more expensive than that, and we don’t want to carry someone I I’ve heard that that doesn’t have that range yet, right? So there’s, like, a lot that goes in there. And also, you know, the galleries take a risk when they take on an artist, because, especially when it’s an early career artist, like, well, we don’t know if you sold anything yet, or, you know, all these things, because it is dealing with another business. And, I mean, there are a lot of caveats also as well that go with galleries. Like, Okay, what if, like, five years down the line, I decide to switch things up, and I’m no longer really painting the same thing that they decided to take me on for what then, right? That’s like the conversation that then has to begin with the gallery of whether or not you’ll continue with them, they’ll give you the opportunity to try out this new avenue, which is very natural for a lot of artists to, you know, pursue something else, or do you keep painting these things for this one gallery, but maybe pursue a different one for this other subject matter? I mean, there’s a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah. Oh man. But then I also wanted to ask you, do you have any advice for someone out there who’s listening, who wants to become a full time artist?

Emma Kalff: 1:02:29

Yeah, my advice would be to, I think if you spend an hour on your craft, like whatever art that you’re making, spend an hour on the business side. So if you spend a day in the studio, spend the next day, you know, marketing and on your computer and, like, researching that sort of stuff like that has really helped me to make a balance of it, because I think it’s really easy to get sucked into one side or the other, of like, oh, I have to market myself super hard, and then you’re not painting, or you’re not, you know, in the studio, or it can go the other way too, where you’re like, Oh, I just like, don’t want to email Today, and I’m just gonna, but it’s really helped me to have that, like, sort of one to one balance. And I think over time, if you, if you really stick to that, like, it’s almost like a mathematical certainty that you will get somewhere. And like, you diversify your your avenues, and you just keep on chipping away on it, you’ll get somewhere.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:48

Absolutely, yeah, little by little. It’s a little by little stuff. But I love that you emphasize you know that balancing both aspects, because it really is, I mean, very difficult to make it anywhere as an artist, if all you have is paintings and you don’t have the wherewithal to know how to do something with them, it can be a challenge. So yeah, having that balance and even the other way around, some people are, like, heavy on the business, but then not enough on the like, figuring out what they’re even painting side. So it’s very good, very great advice. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?

Emma Kalff: 1:04:29

Yeah, just my newsletter. If you want. I can give you the link to my Patreon. Oh, that’s helpful, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, I try to keep it super affordable, and it’s just, you know, two, two, like, really quick, easy lessons a month that’ll help you with your basic skills as a painter. And, yeah, that show that I have coming up, I’ll give you the link to my newsletter so people can check that out.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:59

Awesome. Perfect. And then where can people see more of your work?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:04

So I’m on Instagram a lot. My handle is Emma, call, K, a, l, F, F, and yeah, I’m represented by a band gallery in Denver, and I also work with milk Moon gallery in Telluride and 33 contemporary in Florida. So those are kind of my three that I’m where I have work.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:32

Yeah, cool. And then, what is your website?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:36

My website is just my name. It’s Emma cough.com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:40

yeah, awesome, yeah. Well, likewise, yes, and I will add all of your links also. Yeah, cool, sweet. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much, Emma for the conversation. I definitely have a lot of food for thought, as I usually do with my interviews, but this I like the energy was very sobering but also very hopeful. So I appreciate that.

Emma Kalff: 1:06:07

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:15

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcasts Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

When Math Isn’t Enough: AI, Authenticity, and the Missing Fifth Element

When AI first appeared several years ago, I thought that, over time, it would become increasingly difficult to distinguish between AI-generated and human-generated content.

Surprisingly, time shows that it is true and untrue at the same time.

It becomes harder to tell the difference only when we try to analyze what we see with our minds. When we rely solely on the intellect, we often miss it.

But when we rely on our guts, we rarely err. When we look at AI-generated content, we feel in our guts that something is off.

There is a curious psychological phenomenon we all share called the “uncanny valley.” Coined by roboticist Masahiro Mori in 1970, it describes a psychological phenomenon where human-like objects (robots, CGI, dolls) that appear almost, but not quite human, elicit feelings of eeriness, revulsion, or discomfort.

Most explanations of the uncanny valley suggest that the “dip” in affinity occurs when something looks nearly human but contains subtle imperfections. I would say the opposite. The dip in affinity occurs when something looks nearly human but way too perfect.

AI-generated content is mathematically precise. And mathematics deals with models, not reality. A model resembles the real thing – but in an overly precise, idealized way. A model apple may look exactly like a real one, but it is too perfect – and, of course, inedible.

Recently, YouTube served me a couple of videos about centenarians sharing the secret to a long life. The introduction was intriguing, so I started watching.

For the first two minutes or so, I assumed it was real – the old man, the story, the setting.

Then a vague feeling arose: something “felt off.” I had never seen even a 90-year-old move or speak like that – too perfect to be real. No fidgeting, no coughing, no irregular blinking or movement.

He never paused or hesitated between words or sentences. No sniffing, no searching for words, no trailing off mid-thought, no rasp or tremor in the voice.

His features were perfectly symmetrical.

His speech was flawlessly paced, each word evenly spaced – something a real person would rarely do unless highly trained in public speaking.

Even the background looked authentic, yet somehow artificial – too precise, too model-like.

I stopped the video. It immediately lost its appeal. Why would I listen to machine-generated life advice?

Scrolling through the comments, I saw the same reaction repeated: “It’s AI.”

What is this feeling we experience when something looks real but feels off? The mind cannot go beyond mathematics; the gut can.

It perceives what lies beyond the mathematical – the creative Spirit.

When we look at a real 100-year-old, we sense that living Spirit moving through him in unpredictable, imperfect ways: in the pauses, the sniffing, the blinking, the coughing, the small gestures.

A model cannot capture the living Spirit – that is why it feels lifeless. A mathematically generated reality does not nourish. Only what is alive can nourish the soul.

And the Spirit dwells in imperfect vessels. It hovers over the formless and brings it into living order:

“Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” – Genesis 1:2

We cannot contain or predict the Spirit. It does not fit into mathematical precision. It moves over the formless and brings it to life in the moment. It is the missing “fifth element” – the force that binds all things together.

That’s why recent data shows that AI gradually erodes trust between brands and people.

According to Forbes, about 55% of audiences feel uncomfortable with AI-generated content, especially in advertising and media.

Leave a comment

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Subscribe to Hello, Writer!

With all the hype and fear surrounding AI, the piece below is a breath of encouragement for us artists because her article uncovers and explains detailed studies that have shown what AI actually can and cannot do and, it turns out, well, as we suspected, AI struggles with true creativity and there is no path, even with unlimited resources, for the AI companies to solve this challenge. In other words, true creativity is still reserved for human beings. However, that doesn’t mean you don’t need to up your game…as you’ll see in Linda’s excellent essay below.

This post, The only thing human writers can do that AI can never learn from us, originally appeared on Hello Writer! here.

This post will be locked after three days but you will still be able to read the original on Linda’s substack here.

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To end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter, and sculptor living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary-focused art school to then find classical, atelier-based training in Florence. Matthew explains how Old Masters like Titian, Van Dyck, Rembrandt, and Velázquez shaped his devotion to painting from life, Baroque optical effects, and the idea of following their principles—especially observation of nature—rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should “go cold turkey” from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls “art zoos” (museums stripped of original context). Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture—sight-size work from life, historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting, and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character—as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time. Underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes: the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong “Odyssey”, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today, and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces.

Matthew’s FASO site:
matthewjamescollins.com/

Matthew’s Social Media:
instagram.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/
facebook.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/

Matthew’s Articles:
Historical Approaches for Contemporary Portrait Practice
Dancing Faun of Pompeii: Removed From Habitat, Out of Context

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Transcript:

Matthew James Collins: 0:00

This idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then, as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate metaphor of the artist is we’re found in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:28

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights to end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter and sculptor, living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary, focused art school to then find classical Atelier based training in Florence. Matthew explains how old masters like Titian Van Dyck, Rembrandt and Velasquez shaped his devotion to painting, from life Baroque optical effects and the idea of following their principles, especially observation of nature, rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should go cold turkey from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls art zoos, which are museums stripped of original context. Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture side size work from life historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character, as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes, the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong Odyssey, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces. Welcome Matthew to the FASO podcast. How are you today? Hello.

Matthew James Collins: 2:29

No, I’m doing well. Thank you, Laura. Thank you for having me here. And it’s I’m doing well. It’s a sunny day in Florence, so it’s always nice. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Oh, I’m so excited to have you too, because, of course, I also studied in Florence, and it is such a beautiful city, and your work is gorgeous. I adore the poeticism of your sculptures, your portraits, and I love when someone is also trying to maintain this beautiful classical skill that we, you know, the torch that we are trying to maintain as artists, which is, you know the lessons that we’ve learned from our predecessors, you know the old masters, everyone in between who is trying to keep this art alive. So I appreciate that very much.

Matthew James Collins: 3:16

No thank you. And that’s why, when a fellow artist gives you a compliment like that, tell you to not be happy, because that’s we. We paint. Probably we make work, works of art for everybody. But if other artists appreciate that’s a little bit something special in it, in pew, they say in Italian.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:30

Additionally, yes, yeah, totally. And also because, I mean, sometimes it feels like, I don’t know if maybe you relate to this, but sometimes we make our work, whether it’s a sculpture, sculpture or painting, and sometimes we’re like, oh, this is, you know, I really love this. But then when other people see it as well, it feels much more like, ah, validation for all this hard work that I’ve been putting into this craft, and that also is very fulfilling. No, definitely,

Matthew James Collins: 3:59

and we don’t, maybe don’t get that validation as much as we’d like. So people, you spend months working on a work of art, and they go, that’s nice. And you’re like, Oh no, but Oh, that’s nice. The best work of art grows on people with time. I think,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:14

yes, yeah, I agree. And it’s it. I think also, like some works of art are just, they have a bit of, like a more of like a softer voice. They don’t have to, you know, be impactful in your face. Sometimes it could be more of, like a calm, quiet sort of contemplation that I think a lot of people hopefully are leaning more towards today because of the crazy revolution of the internet that’s been happening. So I think there’s going to be more appreciation for your type of work as well. Oh, well, I

Matthew James Collins: 4:49

hope so. Thanks. That’s I even see it in Italy. It’s a even in a culture surrounded by beautiful things, they tend to not be as sensitive to the figurative arts as we would like. That’s the so I do most of my work outside of Italy. In fact, they do in France or Spain or the states.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:07

So yeah, that’s the complexity of the markets as well. Not all markets are receptive to specific types of art. I mean, some countries are definitely much more inclined to prefer abstract other places might prefer, especially like western United States level, Western art, which is more towards realism, plein air is loved, I think almost everywhere, yeah, but yeah. So I think it’s awesome that you’re maintaining this craft alive as well. Yes. And then, before we dive into more, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Matthew James Collins: 5:46

Sure. Well, I’m from a town near Chicago, Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago. Grew up there, and obviously my well, not obviously, my parents are artists too. My father’s an architect, my mother’s a writer. And so at Oak Park is very kind of cultural suburb of Chicago as well, too. And so kind of grew up in a creative environment. And so I’ve always went to the museums. We go to Chicago Art Institute all the time. And that was kind of my place where I was introduced to art in first hand as well, too, which I think is really important as well. And that’s where many people don’t have the option to see art. We see art through images on phones and computer screens now, but it’s not the same as seeing works of art in person as well, too. And so and then. But as we all know, this, art isn’t really in let’s say that puritanical culture the practical nature of American culture, it’s about making a living, and so art isn’t seen as very serious way of making a living. So it’s seen as a luxury instead of a necessity. And so obviously, how I became went and started studying art and then didn’t find the right teachers, and obviously, eventually went to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago after high school, and then got a degree in art history. Because when I was there at the school art institute Chicago, which is a wonderful school, they definitely contemporary, let’s say University educations have a certain kind of now, less so than 3040, years ago, in slant towards a certain ideology of art and what its art should be, and it didn’t quite match with my connection of what I thought art should be, which was what I saw in the museum. So it was contemporary, conceptual and other things as well, too. And it those kind of works didn’t quite speak to me the way I when I went to the Art Institute, and I would see everything from El Greco to Sargent to Rembrandt and those kind of just the way these materials were transformed. In oil and in marble, there’s hearing powers, and then there’s Rodin. There’s other sculptures as well too, which kind of inspired me a lot as well. So those kind of a we’re kind of drawn to those things for their beauty. And then obviously I wanted to try to kind of find out how to make those things as well too. And so that’s where I started working and studying. And then eventually found everyone, we all find our own special way to build our skills as well too, and do other things as well, and following your kind of dreams as well. So I kind of dropped out of the School of the Art Institute in that sense. And then I got a degree in art history so I could learn more about these things that inspired me, these objects, paintings and sculptures and buildings. My father being an architect as well, too. And then started my studies on my own with different painters and sculptors as well. So eventually coming to Florence. So I came to Florence in 1994 and that was before the internet. That’s when you just, I just heard word of mouth studying with the paintress in Chicago, and she suggests, well, you already studied. I taught you all I could. So why don’t you go to Florence and study and so, and then I wrote a couple letters, and then I got a couple responses, and they just had, you know, brochures, which they don’t even have brochures anymore, they send in the mail. And then you just kind of got those, like, made a phone call, and then ended up going to the Cecil atelier in Florence so and I studied there for a couple years painting. So that was a wonderful experience where I learned a lot. Is this idea of painting from life, and this idea of building skills through repetition and building your eye based on 19th century French Atelier system as well, too. So, but Florence, back then was a little bit it’s now this. These schools have grown, and they’ve become very much larger and much more, they say, institutionalized. But back then it was, was a couple artists, and there was Charles Cecil and Daniel graves that were just teaching young artists what they knew. Then there’s Richard Saren as well. And then there’s John Angel. So it was a very kind of an interesting and wonderful environment back then, and it was cheaper, so it was easier to live so but so no, it was a wonderful way to learn, especially in a city full of art. So we know Florence. Is Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci the Renaissance and this kind of rebirth in, let’s say, figurative art that happened in the late 1300s 1400 and that’s where it was kind of a re living that kind of experience in the 90s in Florence as well, too. So it was kind of a wonderful experience. So Oh

Laura Arango Baier: 10:21

yeah, that sounds awesome. I mean, I definitely miss that aspect of Florence, the fact that, you know, you walk down one block and you’ll see beautiful buildings, a sculpture in the corner, just this attention to detail throughout the city that just it’s very magical. I think it’s one of those places that, if anyone has that, if anyone has the luck and privilege to be able to go study there, it’s, you know, one of the best places to really immerse yourself in art and in culture, at least in the medieval or Renaissance, also culture, because that’s Florence, in a nutshell. But yeah. And I love also that you mentioned how things have evolved over the years. Because I’ve also heard many artists who studied, you know, in colleges before the 90s, that they did experience this like, oh, well, I want to learn how to actually, you know, draw or paint, kind of like the old masters, but the emphasis wasn’t quite there at that time. It was much more the contemporary of anything. I have heard a lot of artists say that their teachers would say, oh, realism is dead, which a lot of people thought that at the time. So it’s a little bit unfortunate, but it’s wonderful that you know people like Cecil and you know, the schools that have happened in Florence have been so focused on trying to revive this, well, French academic style of, yeah,

Matthew James Collins: 11:53

and it was then, I guess back then, it wasn’t even even successful, wasn’t it was not as French academic that was The kind of the structure, because of this idea of an atelier, where you’d have a group of students working, and then the head teacher would come by a couple days a week, and then you’d have assistant teachers teaching as well too. So it was kind of learning by doing and so and then obviously, not obviously, of course. But then it was this idea of obviously, that was a system that kind of came from the French Academy, a French the French Atelier system, not the academy in France. So it would be private painters studios in Paris, like Carlos Duran who taught Sargent, they’d have their own Bona had their own painting studios. So it’s definitely more intimate than, let’s say, an academy, and that’s where the teacher could transmit certain ideology, not just ideology, share visions of what art could be. And so it was more, instead of French academic masters, is more ideas of when I was there in the 90s, was more Velasquez, Van Dyke, Rubens Titian. So it was this idea of looking towards the art, of looking at the art around us, and trying to incorporate that into our practice too. And then even Sargent, when I was studying their 90s, their sergeant was always important, but wasn’t really the main focus. Let’s say that’s because I was, I’m inspired by Baroque painting so and when I see I think broke painting is maybe one of the highest points of, let’s say, where the eye and the hand and then the individual expression of the artist kind of came through. So that’s where the broke air for me, is one of the best. So because you can’t have this, because you have the Rembrandt, you have a Velasquez, Van Dyke, Guido Reni, all at the same time, same color, same brushes, same everything. And look at such a wide variety of expression too. We’re in the 19th century. It all came closer together. So I mean, if you look at Rembrandt and you look at Van Dyke, you can’t see two way, grossly different ways of approaching painting, but they’re still wonderfully beautiful in their personal expression. And that’s kind of what we all become artists to express ourselves and find our own personal voice. And so that’s where that’s why the bro kind of really attracted me was this variety of expression,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:04

yes, yes. I totally agree with that. And I think probably in part, why the 19th century and then onward, I would say even, yeah, yeah, 19th century. I feel like one of the biggest shifts, of course, was, you know, the camera happening. Because, you know, like, as we know, Bouguereau did use photographs for his paintings as well. And Bouguereau, of course, came he was much more important in the when I was studying in Italy, he was one of the big names going around. Everyone’s talking about Bouguereau, everyone’s talking about Sargent. By that point, I think Sargent was one of the big ones. But I feel very much like you I, you know, my heroes are definitely, you know, like Titian and Van Dyke. Like Van Dyke especially, who was my first love. Like I saw his work when I took art history, and I was like, Oh, this is incredible. His portrait that he painted when he was 13 years old. How sure. Okay, it’s amazing, but yeah. And actually, what you just mentioned also leads me to a quote that you mentioned in your article on realism today, which I will link also in the show notes for some of our readers or for some people who want to go check it out, I totally recommend it. And the quote is, instead of treat, instead of treading in the Old Masters footsteps, Endeavor only to keep the same road. Do you mind telling us

Matthew James Collins: 15:28

some more? That was from, I think that’s from Reynolds. Joshua, Reynolds, and he’s what they he was the wonderful portrait painter, and he was obviously profoundly inspired by Van Dyke. Van Dyke was his. I think first love is all portrait painters. They should be the first love is Van Dyck. But he and his lectures, his discourses on art, which were lectures towards to his students at the Royal Academy. And he was, in some ways, just echoing what Leonardo said, too. So this is where he was saying, we look to the old masters because they inspire us, but the old masters look towards nature and so, and that’s where art, in many periods of art history, art comes from art and then. But art is very derivative. It just comes from art. So just copying art doesn’t create, let’s say, interesting and profound art as well, too. That’s where he goes, That’s so he said, we should follow the principles that they did by looking at nature and then apply them. Employ the language, which is the visual language of art, in a personal way too, but that’s also being well versed in the Old Masters too. This is where the idea of making the grand tour to see paintings in person, which is that’s where everyone who comes to Florence can has the opportunity to do that. And even Reynolds came to Italy to study wonderful examples of Titian. Because obviously Van Dyke, even Van Dyke, came to Italy to study Titian. So Titian is the godfather of, let’s say, portrait painting and oil painting. He kind of made it all. He was the first he did, the first full length portrait. He did portraits life size. He did lots of things that we all kind of take for granted, but he kind of worked those problems up. Because in the end, we make objects, and we need to figure out how to make those things. And that’s the that’s where working with another artist and having a direct dialog with someone who’s more experience is we try to do it on ourselves, but you can, but it’s it’s hard. That’s where creating dialog with other artists is important at every stage of your life. Then that’s where, because of art is lonely, but also in just learning and learning how to do things is and we as artists, we love to talk shops, no colors, brushes, all these other things as well too. So, but he was also even Leonardo says nature is the true Master too. So Leonardo talks about and that goes back to Neil Leonardo’s teacher, Verrocchio, and Andrea Verrocchio is a really important, Pivotal artist for the Renaissance, because he was the one that almost not single handedly, but started drawing from life in the studio. So instead of just copying art from the past and then just redoing it a little bit more refined, like that’s what the late Gothic and international Gothic style is. It was this idea of looking towards nature. They were looking at classical works, like classical sculptures. That’s what influenced them. But then they also started looking towards nature as well too. So it was in verocchio studio where they started doing life studies of each other, drapery studies. And so that’s where Leonardo, writing that down in his notebooks kind of transformed how we see art as well, too, because we’re kind of following it as well. That’s we see the the true form of things too. Because obviously when we look at art and look at, let’s say classical art, I mean in Greek and Roman art, it is this beautiful, naturalistic expression of the human figure, but it is kind of a It’s not stylized, but there’s a way they made them too. So, but in just copying the surface of what those sculptures are, we don’t understand the principles that the artists use to create and conceive them and then express something as well, too. And so that’s kind of, I think that’s lifelong journey for let’s say you want to say classical artist is to try to understand the language, and then in understanding the language, which is proportion and how different things relate to each other, then express that in our, let’s say, chosen material.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:10

So, yes, and that is a lot. It is so much because, you know, we look towards the old masters because they it’s almost like they have this. And I think a lot of students also see it as like, oh, they have the magic formula. But of course, their magic formula is literally just experience and observations, extreme observation of nature. But even then, you know, you can, like you said, there’s nothing better than going to a real painting and observing it and just seeing how did this painter describe this person, or describe the shape of their cheek, or describe how the hands were, which Van Dyck, of course, has his very specific hands from his very specific hand model. So there. Are. It’s like, it’s almost like writing, right, where an author might describe a character in a particular way, or a scene in a particular way, and another one would do it in a different way. But you’re still trying to decipher, ah, what are they looking at? What are they gathering from this image that they’re, you know, visualizing, like, what is that? And then from there, you kind of have to figure it out on your own as well, through, like you said, practice process, observation and repeat and and then figuring out, okay, what are the magic proportions that make something look beautiful? Because then that’s the next thing. So it’s such a deep well of knowledge that you gain as an artist, and it feels like it never ends. You know?

Matthew James Collins: 20:47

No, definitely. And that’s where I guess. And then also the figurative adds the idea of subject matter and other things as well too. And then in addition, it’s the fluency of the material becomes the most important thing. And it’s certainly not most important thing. It’s a it’s how you use your materials as well too. So if you look at Rembrandt, how he created, how paint becomes something more. It becomes life, but it becomes these beautiful colors and impastos, and they all kind of melt together. And even Van Dyck does it as well, too, in a more subtle and delicate way, too. So it’s the fluency of the language using certain materials. And the greatest artists always had that kind of connection with their materials as well, too. And that’s where the I guess, we tend to specialize depending on what we do, because it takes a while to become fluent in these materials and then expand and then fluent, then in terms of the language as well, too. So Titian kind of described paintings as poems. I’d see that as well. I think that’s maybe the perfect way, because they’re not, we’re not writing novels. When things become a little bit too narrative in a painting, it becomes, it’s not living to its full potential. And so, and then it’s how you say something is as important as what you’re saying. And that’s what makes, I think, painting so suggestive and eternal in a certain way.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:59

So, yeah, and that also reminds me of that rule that even the writing has, which is, show, don’t tell. And it’s so similar in painting as well. Because, of course, you can, you can go the Audubon style and like, really get into the nitty gritty of painting something exactly as it is, or you can find a way to use, like you said, your knowledge of medium, to describe it in a more interpretive way that gets closer to your own perception of this thing, while also maintaining the integrity of what it is which is such a challenging little area to reach. You know,

Matthew James Collins: 22:40

yeah, and that’s where, I guess the optical comes out in the broker the optical. So this idea of look at a Velazquez and then the Bruce Lee Sergeant looks at that as well, our Frans halls and the and even Rembrandt as well too. We’re up close. These paintings all kind of come together. They’re just these globs of different color pigments on a canvas with different thicknesses and translucencies, but then you step back and they become something more than what they they seem to be up close. And so we see there’s the kind of the the idea of distance giving order to chaos and expression as well too. And I think that’s a very strong, powerful metaphor that goes through all the arts as well too. That’s it. And it’s at this for art can be also there it’s making the metaphor with music is very valid as well, too, this idea of notes and then how they come together to create something much more rich and deep than just the notes themselves, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:31

Yes, yeah. And then the order of the notes also provides mood, definitely, you know, yeah, whether you have, like, you know, the sad or happy music, which is minor and major. But yeah, it’s exactly that I feel like with painting, we have also such a wide range as well of things to play with with like color value, focus, contrast edges, which is it can it can be a lot, which I think is also why it’s so wonderful to see all the different ways that artists have interpreted the same medium. I think what’s interesting as well, because you brought up, you know, the way that the Baroque were interpreting the optical I find also interesting that today we are, we’ve been so influenced by the camera, right? I mean, of course, it started in the 1860s but we are even more so influenced by the camera because now it’s so readily accessible to everyone from their phone. So I have a couple questions attached to that. So if someone were to want to learn from the, you know, old masters, or try to learn to paint the traditional way? How would you say that they should completely reset their brain away from the camera?

Matthew James Collins: 24:49

Ah, that’s a that’s a great question, and that’s the response to that, because becoming more and more difficult to do that. That meaning. So when I was I would say the best way to just kind of go cold turkey and not look at images and start painting from life, and just paint directly from life and then doing so what happens is the familiarity painting from life every day. And I had the blessing to be able to do that while I was here in Florence, in my own work as well too, is when you just when we start looking at something long enough, and that’s the problem, we don’t have enough time anymore, right? We have all these things. We’re always rushing from one thing to another, looking at something long enough, you’ll see what we see in cameras is not what we see in real life, and that’s where people that go through the training here, and as you’ve done as well, too, you can see the human eye works differently, and that’s what’s and again, what we’re trying to do as artists, I think we all are, and only speak for myself, but we’re trying to speak to someone standing in front of our work who’s looking at it with their eyes too. And I think that’s a very so to remove the filters of the camera, move the filters of other thing, then you can that’s where the Baroque era, where they’re very sensitive how people perceive their works, and that’s why it became optical. I want to have that kind of sort of visceral experience in front of a picture as well, too. Even though we are influenced by we are influenced by photography, people are convinced the distortions they see in cameras are how we see the world, but that’s not how it is so. So this is that’s a tough question, can you eliminate the idea the photograph altogether? Maybe not. Maybe you can’t. And that even today is what kids are growing up, looking at little screens. Because obviously, in the 90s, we had a television, but you didn’t have a screen in front. You had a computer screen. Eventually there was no internet, so you had books. We looked at a lot of books, but that was already a camera looking at a picture, taking a photograph, but it was always not quite as distorted. The cameras weren’t as, let’s say, highly developed, where everything can be in the same focus as they are today, too. So technology is kind of divorcing us from a certain sense of reality, which I think is a bit of a shame. So even how we how you I mean, it’s wonderful we can talk right now, because look at your 1000 miles away. I’m right here, and we can still talk. But again, it’s not the same as seeing someone in person talking to someone in person. That’s this, and I think that’s even more so with experiencing a great work of art. And that’s where I’m getting a degree in art history in Chicago, and then living in Chicago as well too, where there’s obviously beautiful homes, beautiful places, but it’s a art wasn’t quite as central to, let’s say, say, a contemporary American way of living in my house, I was lucky. My parents had oil paintings and still lives, and they collected prints and everything as well too, but most people didn’t. And so to see art, you had to go to a museum. So this idea of an esthetic experience was confined to museums, and that’s very interesting idea as well. So, and this is where, again, coming to Florence, being able to see art in situ, because I studied everything in Slides, in art history, but then seeing in person, it was completely different. And it was almost and I guess a good example is, everyone studies in art history, the raft of Medusa by General com, no and, but when you see it in person, it’s, it’s it’s not, it’s like you never seen it before. It’s impressive when you see it that big in your book, or I see it on a screen, but when you see it in person, it’s a whole different, visceral experience. And that’s the power of art too. And you see that in Florence with the statues and the paintings and the press goes on the walls. And that’s which I would encourage, that’s experiencing things in person will help us overcome this idea the photograph as well, too, because we’re seeing things on small screens all the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 28:42

So yes, yeah, and I have a funny story about the raft of Medusa, because when I first saw it at the louver, it was bigger than my apartment in Italy. I can believe that, yeah, it’s just such a massive painting. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t imagine it, of course, from a tiny image. And when you see it, it is, I was just, this is literally bigger than the layout of my tiny apartment in Florence. And it is amazing to imagine, you know, someone working on this painting, you know, setting up the models and setting up the setting to reference from. It’s, it’s magical, because there’s just so much in the process. There’s so much time that goes into making something well, you know, just just getting it done well. And the other crazy thing that I often think about is the fact that as artists, we gain these skills that are already extremely challenging and difficult to gain, and then when you have to apply them, you’re already at the base level of like, yeah, you have the basics. Now you have to develop that even more. It feels like this never ending tantalizing mountain that you just have to keep climbing when you think you’ve read. The peak. You’re like, nope, now it’s now it’s time to actually apply these insane principles that I’ve learned into something great. And I mean, it doesn’t even have to be like, as insane as the Raft of the Medusa, because, of course, that’s a very ambitious painting. But there’s also, I think, a necessity for people to continue to make ambitious paintings anyway, because it’s inspiring to humanity. I mean, that painting has been around for a very, very long time, and it will continue to, hopefully, to be around and inspire more people to paint a painting bigger than their apartment,

Matthew James Collins: 30:37

and then the humanity in it, and then the drama, and then, and then, that’s where Italy is also a wonderful example. I mean, this Sistine Chapel by Michelangelo. So that’s another, and it’s just one of the many examples of decorative wall painting where the decorative kind of used in a derogatory term. But it’s actually it used to be seen as the highest form of painting is these large scale figure paintings, because they do kind of transform how we live in the environment which we’re observing them because we’re observing them from life, and they kind of surround us and envelop us too. So, and that’s where it can really end. That’s even, I guess, Rubens even wrote an essay on the the sublimity of scale, and so, so making things bigger. So that’s why we all talk about everyone looks at Rubens and thinks all these over exaggerated curves and other things as well too. Making things larger changes how we perceive them. So even the raft of Medusa is kind of seems cartoony, but you see it in person, it doesn’t seem cartoony at all. It seems just right. That’s those are lessons you do. You can only learn by doing, and unfortunately, in contemporary, well in, probably even before in, let’s say, an atelier system, or in any sort of learning academic school setting, it’s difficult to set up those kind of projects and do those things too. So it’s something you learn the skills. Then you just kind of have to jump in and do them, though, and you learn on the on the job.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:01

So, yeah, yeah. And, and also have some sort of economic support on the side so that you can afford to do it. Because that’s the other really tough part of like, Oh, I really want to, you know, make this incredible thing you kind of have to live below your means. And also, you know, be able to manage around economically, so that you can do it, unless someone out there is lucky enough to be wealthy and can just dedicate themselves to it, which more power to them. I hope they they can really enjoy that. But yeah, for the rest of us, it’s, it really feels like a labor of love that we just have to, like, oh, you really want to do this. Okay, you got to find ways to you will find a way to figure it out. Hopefully. Yeah, and then I find it interesting too, because the Reynolds quote also that we mentioned earlier, it’s a it’s one of those. It touches on one of the topics that I think a lot of artists think about, a lot of our listeners think about, which is the idea of the artistic voice. And you also mentioned it, how, like, you know, Van Dyke has had his way of painting with the same exact, exact pigments as Rembrandt, same exact pigments as many of the surrounding painters who were working at the time, and yet you can distinguish them personally. You know, for you, how, what? How was it? How long did you did it take for you to develop your own artistic voice?

Matthew James Collins: 33:26

Well, that’s a maybe. It’s a question. It’s a to respond to the question. It’s an answer in evolution, because we’re constantly refining and finding our voice as well too. So our voice is kind of limited to the skills that we can to use to express it, but it’s also, but it’s in, let’s say, enlarged by the culture we have behind our skills too. So I think there’s this combination between we have we’re, you can say we’re given a certain set of talent, or we build a certain set of skills to illustrate our ideas or to express them mechanically through painting or sculpting or drawing. And that’s what painting is, just drawing and color and then. But we it’s the culture behind them that enlarges them as well too. So it’s this kind of balance in between. And so the voice is everything we kind of absorb. That’s your culture, and that’s where even a artist, I think even Reynolds said, again, he said that most, the biggest crime for an artist was to be uncultured. He said, There’s a you can have all the skills in the world, but if you have no culture, and even he was a had as the hierarchy of the you know, he was a portrait painter, but he saw this idea as Dec figurative, decorative painting as being the top as well, too. But he’s like, having a culture behind you is one of the most important things for developing your own voice, I think, because then it’s just as we look at look Rembrandt, and we look at Van Dyke and we look at Titian, they kind of we they are. They become our men. Mentors, in addition to our mentors that teach us how to hold a brush and mix the color, and then through those two combinations together, something comes out as well too. So that’s kind of what I think it’s this kind of mix between these ideas as well and so but obviously, as we already mentioned before, it is just repetition and work too. And this is where I think a lot of people, there’s a kind of this idea is the art, and that’s especially in contemporary artists. The artist sits down, it’s inspired, and throws paint on a canvas, and that’s the work of art. But obviously we have something more, let’s say sophisticated, not so sophisticated, a little bit more subtle and maybe profound. And we’re searching for something ourselves, too. And so in the act of painting, we find who we are, and we find our personal voice as well. So but not looking at other paintings, that’s I see a lot of art students that they don’t they’re curious about expressing themselves, but they’re not curious about art. And I think if you all the thing, all the artists the past, we just already, we previously mentioned, without exception, they were all extremely curious about art. They and then, for one example is they all came to Italy, except for Rembrandt. Rembrandt didn’t come to Italy, but all the paintings went through Amsterdam. So he saw plenty of Italian art, but they were certainly there’s a curiosity that I think that combines all of us of looking towards and we look at Leonardo, he’s looking at art. But he says, Look, it’s a nature, this idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate, uh, metaphor of the artist is, we’re kind in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our, our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there. And so, so you never quite know your first your voice, and I guess. And I also think in today’s contemporary post World War Two art kind of, let’s say organization of culture is and that some of I had to paint, the painter in Chicago told me he’s like, you know how you become a painter? You get him at first, you get a master’s degree, you paint the same picture 25 times, and you get an art critic, and then you get a show, and then you move forward. And it’s this idea of kind of goes into consumerism and branding yourself. And so that’s, I think, the poetic, obviously, the poetic, I think, should take precedent over developing a style. That’s the whatever happens, happens. You just paint, if it’s beautiful, that you’re in the right direction. That’s another thing that. That’s what impressed me about Baroque artists, especially as well, too. You look at all of them and they went to such a each artist goes through a profound change artistically, from when they started and when they ended and so and wasn’t a planned evolution towards making things more abstract. Towards the end, they were thinking about other things, but they definitely if you look at early Van Dyke and late Van Dyke is two different paintings. You look at early Rembrandt, late Rembrandt is two different painters, almost. So today they wouldn’t be wrecked they you’re discouraged from doing that, because then you don’t have a and Velasquez is probably the best one. He’s he started a caravaggisti, super hard drawn, very beautiful, and then he ended somewhere completely different. And I think that’s Titian did the same thing. So this is where, unfortunately, don’t my advice is, don’t let, let’s say these kind of external but you should do what you want. But I don’t want these external pressures to force me to paint something or paint in a way that that’s not what I’m looking for.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:49

So, yeah, so you’re totally in agreement. Yeah, there’s just, there’s something. It’s interesting. Because, like you said, you know, trying to box yourself into because I feel like, you know, having a voice and having a style aren’t necessarily the same thing, since, I mean, you can make up a style and then, oh, I’m recognized as the person who paints eyes, or the person who paints this very specific thing. And I think the way that we develop as humans is so contrary to creating a product, right? Like we just a product implies something that rarely evolves or stays very much the same throughout. And it’s very like, you like how galleries would be like, Oh, you get exactly what we expect every time, right? Because it sells. But that’s not how humans naturally function, right? We evolve, we learn, we change. That’s how it works for most of us. And then, yeah, maybe there are some painters out there who are very happy painting the same thing over and over. There’s no hate to them, of course. But. But not all of us, you know, have that luck, right where, oh, maybe I feel like, yeah, I’ve painted enough sunsets, but I want to try this other thing, right? And it’s usually curiosity that really pulls you out, and then, oh, hopefully my gallery is okay with this, and they don’t drop me, or hopefully my gallery allows me to have the permission to explore and experiment, right? It can feel very, like I said, very contrary to how we develop as humans throughout life, yeah, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 40:36

I think that’s, that’s normal, and that’s because it, there’s kind of a and, but it’s also this idea of in contemporary world, this idea of franchising, having the same object and same idea, and this is where hopefully things will change. Whereas a work of art is an object and it is beautiful and it doesn’t have to be, it can be just a pretty still life, and it can live. Works of art can exist on so many different levels, which that’s what makes them so wonderful, and that’s and all the great works of art can function and be perceived on so many different levels, but that shouldn’t the artist does. We don’t want to be limited by the most base levels. Either. We’re always looking for something that’s a little bit more profound, and then in those simple that’s that we were talking about these contradictions in art, the in the most simple things, we find the most complex answers, and vice versa too. And so it’s just how many love stories have been written, but Romeo and Juliet, when you seen before, it’s, it doesn’t disappoint, and it’s still, it’s still profound and beautiful. That’s so it’s how it’s said as well, too, in the in the different the the verse is actually magical. So it’s and that’s goes with all the great arts as well. So the portrait is just the face, but again, it’s so much more when you put in the great artists and so and then as we, as artists, we want to get better. So we’re kind of, we have our own personal journey and our own personal journey. If we have the right culture and a good training, we can make some very beautiful things, and then we grow as well too. So that’s the and that’s kind of the which is good and but obviously, when we it’s which is good, but also, we also we also have to survive and other things as well doing. We also want to communicate to a and transmit something that I think the world needs as well. So this is where, again, painting from life, painting beautiful porches, painting things that aren’t photographic, is something I think the world kind of needs now, because we’re also doing things as well. So it’s important to do those ideas. And so, but it’s, it’s actually an act of rebellion in a certain sense, because it doesn’t make much sense monetarily, doesn’t make much sense financially, it doesn’t make much sense in terms of the same mainstream culture as well, too, and so, but again, that’s why I think maybe it’s so important. So at

Laura Arango Baier: 42:58

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But, yeah, there’s something really interesting about how paintings they take so long they take, you know, a priceless amount of time, right? Like you can’t really put a price on the experience and the lived life that you have to gain to paint something like the Raft of the Medusa, for example. That’s, you know, a price that no one could be really able to pay back. And I find that, you know, it is the antithesis of, you know, how. A lot of products are sold today. You know, they’re made to be used and discarded, or used and then broken after a certain amount of time, but paintings, they don’t really fall under that category. So I have hopes that, you know, we will remember that as humanity, that what will remain is the beautiful, handcrafted aspect of us. You know what it means to be a human, but yeah, and then the other thing that I think will always Outlast is the portrait, because it is especially like you had mentioned in one of your articles, that it is life size portraiture that is some of the most impactful to witness, because it it, it does have this uncanny feeling of you’re being observed. You’re being you know, you’re connecting with someone who’s long gone. Can you tell us a little bit about your own process with creating a portrait, and what parts of that process you recommend for people to also do so that they can improve their portraiture?

Matthew James Collins: 46:09

Oh, well, yeah, there’s that, well, there’s way, any different ways of creating portraits. And then I way that I was taught, it says so is the the site size method as well, too, which has kind of been used for lots of different applications, but it was primarily used as a portrait method to create portraits from life very quickly. And so this is where you have them canvas, right next to the side of the model. You stand back at a distance, which would be a viewing distance, which was very logical back in the Renaissance and onwards, because you have your viewers looking at the painting so and so, you could identify different kind of problems as well, in terms of proportion and drawing as well too. And so Van Dyke used the variation on that where he would occasionally put the canvas alongside and then bring the canvas back up to him as well, too. But it’s this idea of using distance to see proportions. And that’s where, just like in everything in life, the further back you get from something and you can see whether it works. And that’s where even Leonardo talks about this idea of viewing distance too. And so I kind of use this method to do life size portraiture, where you just set up the canvas alongside you stand back, and then by observing both your image and the model to scale. You can see, you can you can develop the shapes very quickly and very accurately too. So, but obviously there’s limitations, because it’s can only be, it’s a, you know, the pose has to be one viewing point. You can’t models in different, interesting dynamic poses as well, too. So that’s the beginning point as well. So this is where you can also, as I paint as well, too. Obviously, when you’re trying to learn, you have to have the model sit still, but you always want to discuss, talk with people. And then you can actually, let’s say, Delve and pull out their personality as you observe them over a long period of time too. So this is where I tend to paint portraits from life, pretty much all. And so where people pose, and they pose for several hours, and then I just kind of have a conversation, paint them. And then you, as you observe people, you see who they are. So this is where, again, working from references. It’s two dimensional, two dimensional. Three to two dimension. This three dimension observing something from life and then creating something in two dimensions, not just copying, it’s creating. And so that’s, I think, a very important opportunity, which, obviously it’s actually, it’s actually difficult to try to find people to pose, or people who are willing to pose, but once they do start posing, it’s actually quite pleasant and nice as well, too. It’s, it’s an, it’s a, not a torturous experience, so,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:42

yeah, yeah. I mean, it shouldn’t be, otherwise they won’t do it again. And then you have a half started painting, yeah, which kind of sucks, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 48:51

And then using, I use kind of a historical palette too. So because I was just inspired by the past, so you trying to use the same, I would retry to recreate the palette of what Van Dyke would use, or the British school, or even eg LeBron. And so what’s nice about the feet seat, which is the art gallery here, the gallery the feet see here in Florence, they have a self portrait section of all these artists. And they all, you know, they’re all holding their palettes, and you can see all the colors are using. So you go there not just to appreciate their their wonderful visions of themselves, these artists of the past, but you can see exactly their kind of tools of the trade as well, too. VG Lebrun, Elizabeth. VG Lebrun is one of the best portrait painters the 18th century, and she has a fantastic one self portrait in the Uffizi with all the colors she uses and how they organize them. So I did a lot of research art historically on different approaches to creating portraits as well too. And that was a really formative experience as well, too. And in addition to copying things as well. So I cop, I spent two years copying in the Art Institute when I was a student there as well, too. So this idea of copying, but also reading first person sources to try to find out the kind of mediums they use, the kind of oils they use. Used, and again, I would agree with you, if there’s no like magic medium, but trying different things out and trying to kind of understand what kind of that’s been. Finding Your voice is finding your technique. And finding your technique is experiment, experimenting with different materials where you can get the most beautiful image you can using the materials that are available to you by choice too. You choose. So some people paint thickly, some people paint thinly. I think the best painters do both. So you do so, and that’s a and then it’s just painting from life. And then if you can’t have the time to be able to work on things too. Again, this is where we see things through social media now. And then you see these. It seems like instantaneous works of art, but it takes, it takes a long time to make a nice portrait too, and again, and it’s easy, and that’s where we mentioned earlier about the workshop culture too. Is this idea, I can paint a portrait in two sittings. I can paint a portrait in a sitting. Well, that’s usually not the best portraits, either. So this idea of spending time and then finishing a painting takes a lot longer than starting one, and that’s what’s kind of that’s where the art and the beauty comes in as well, too. So in the general studio practice, I use pretty much what a lot of painters use today in terms of painting from life, but I think distance is really important, being able to stand back and seeing things from a distance. And obviously, because I’m going for optical ideas, but I think that’s also in terms of practical sense that even Leonardo talks about standing back and then using a mirror to see your shapes. BG, Lebrun talks about it. So there’s plenty of sources out there how to improve your portrait painting, but again, it’s again, the more you observe from life, the more you see things that you would not see in a photograph, too. And you see atmosphere through edges. You see create impact through accents and highlights and dark accents as well, too. And so this is where this idea of having the time to start creating paintings from life, especially having people pose, is a really important, I think idea observing people under natural light, if possible, or diffused light, so we can see those edges as well too. So again, in my practice, I try to create in nature what I want to achieve in my painting. So using natural soft lighting, using a certain kind of pose, organizing the lighting the way I want to and so then, in addition to that, using a knowledge of construction to explain the form which is not quite obvious, or to emphasize certain things as well, too, that should have a psychological impact at the end, and a mode of impact as well. So, so I say, yeah, so it’s uh, but also designing things too. You also designing the portrait, I think is the most important thing. So this is where, that’s where looking at paintings will help you make a better portraits and looking and so. And I guess one of the Van Dyke is fantastic, is a and he uses a variety of poses as well too. But no one is quite as, let’s say, creative in poses, as Sergeant. Sergeant. If you look at sergeant, he creates. He has so many different poses and dynamic poses. They tend it is inspiring to see his portraiture and how he can play spaces and put lightings on them to create something that’s quite that brings out the personality of the person.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:16

Yes, yeah. And that also just reminded me, because you mentioned, you know, looking at other painters. That reminds me also of the quote, you know, there’s nothing new under the sun, sure. So there’s no need to reinvent the wheel and try to come up with things when it was probably already done by an old master or another painter, and you can observe how they did it. And you know, you know, create something derivative of that, or try to understand the portrait that you’re doing while also observing one in a similar situation, which is something that I was doing. You know, when I was trying to teach myself some more portraiture outside of class, I would try to find a painting that was in a similar pose to one that I wanted to paint, and then that way, it’s a lot easier to like look at how this specific painter described the cheekbone, or how they describe the shadow under the eye, in the in the, you know, beneath the eyebrows, or the shadow beneath the nose, how they described the chroma of the nostrils or the area around the nostrils. Okay, like, how did they do that? How do they do this without exaggerating? Because that’s the other very typical thing that I think we all go through when we’re starting out, is we tend to we see color and we just exaggerate it, which is also something you learn over time, that gray is your best friend, or low chroma versions, or lower Chroma versions of most colors are much, much nicer to the eye and having little pops here and there. But of course, you learn this through observation and through looking at the old masters and just trying it a million times as well.

Matthew James Collins: 54:59

No, I. I agree. I think that’s where the it’s that is kind of contemporary paint is where you just over hit the color, and then you have to knock it down where it was in the past. It was a little bit. It was the opposite, where you have dead coloring, and then you build up to that. And then when you start looking at the paintings, and I mean, when you see a Titian in real life, it doesn’t disappoint in terms of color, and that’s where, and that’s and Van Dyke especially, that’s where. So these, there’s a sensitivity to color which is quite much more harmonious than that’s even a Monet or you go to late Impressionist paintings well too. There’s a subtlety in those colors which are quite admirable. And then also colorful too. They’re not, they don’t they’re not boring. And so this is where. And again, I would, I think that’s a great advice, too. And I did the same thing. You always want your learning. You kind of find heroes, and you’re kind of development, and you say, Oh, gee, Van Dyke, set up a model like this. I’m gonna set up a model like this and see what happens. And so that think that’s the perfect way to start entering as because we as artists, we have to do it so we understand it. Just talking about is one that is not enough. So it’s in creating something, then we can understand all the intricacies of the construction and application and other things as well too. And at the same time, understand the visual sensibility and language as well too. So in copying old master pictures, I was copying them to understand technique, but then also you become more sensitive to the visual language as well, too. So the only thing that’s new under the sun is us. No, there’s never been you or me before, and we’re unique. And so when we look at the world around us and bring things in, and then we kind of put something out, it becomes unique if we are, I think, honestly and sincere, sincerely using the visual language to its fullest, and that’s where, and that’s where our own personal interests and formations and what you do helps develop our culture. And that’s where the culture comes to the voice, and that’s where it comes out as well, as well. So we kind of, that’s what we need to do. So we don’t, and that’s, again, it is this idea of in contemporary art culture too. It’s this like, Oh, his innovative technique of doing this. And that’s very it’s like, you have to create, like, a brand new, improved formula. It’s like, well, no, I’m not making a new laundry detergent. I’m just, I’m trying to make a beautiful painting. So, and this is where we just use the same these. We don’t have to create something new, but what we create is new, and that’s where, again, what we’re doing is reinforcing how special we are as individuals, instead of just a part of an economic system or part of a commercial system, which we are because we have to, that’s how the world works. But again, I think we’re so much more, and that’s why art is important. It goes back to that we’re trying to through our personal expression of ourselves, people can experience their individuality, and that’s maybe what art should be doing as well, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:54

Yes, that is very, very inspiring. Because, of course, it goes from like, okay, we’re part of this collective thing, but then we’re also, like this tiny piece of it, kind of like, you know, like a loop, you know, like you need the collective to individuate. Because, like Alan Watts, one of my favorite philosophers, he used to say that finding yourself or like, you know, finding out who you are is very difficult. You can only do it through the other because it’s like trying to touch the tip of your finger with the same tip. It’s Wow. You can’t really do that. So exploring the solve has to be through also observing your surroundings and participating, like you said, like in culture, and learning about it and learning about, okay, well, this isn’t what I am, but this might be what I think I am. And then, you know, that’s why I think, also, like you said earlier, that the practice of painting is truly the practice of finding out who you are, which that’s a whole, whole other, very deep, deep well, that you just kind of experience as you do it as well. But yeah, and then I also wanted to ask you, because you also sent me another very interesting article, which I link, and you talk about the museums being almost like an art Zoo. Do you mind elaborating a little bit

Matthew James Collins: 59:23

on that? Sure, yeah, because I did an article for the epic times, which is a new was it New York newspaper, and it was a series called Art speak. So I wrote a series of articles. They asked me about a work, about individual works of art, and then just talk about them. And so in that article, where I talked about art zoos. It was really about art in context. And so it was the fawn, the dancing fawn of Pompe, which is this beautiful little bronze sculpture that’s in the archeological museum there, and so and so it was just talking about that sculpture in particular. But then again, it kind of relates to my whole experience of growing up. In the Midwest, which was in Chicago, being a cultural city, and living in Oak Park, which is a cultivated sort of suburb, and having an artistic family, snuts, and then having a reference point for a big, let’s say important art was the museum too. And so you go there it goes on this esthetic experience that would be reserved for the museum. But then, as you you can see, and so in that article, I was trying to explore the importance of context for what works of art. So a lot of the works we go to museums now, and museums were kind of a phenomenon that kind of grew at 18th century, 19th century, especially the Archeological Museum in Naples. And what kind of really struck me as that, because it’s a wonderful little sculpture that was in a in one of the houses of Pompe, and it was a garden sculpture. But if you look at it, it’s just a masterpiece and an anatomy and this little pond that’s dancing, and so a beautiful sculpture. And what’s interesting Kenneth Clark, sir. Kenneth Clark, in his book The nude, talks about and he kind of points it out as being a an example of the static and the deadness of classical sculpture in terms of kind of something frozen in time, and talking about that in his overall arc of explaining the nude, the elevation of the evolution of the nude in Western Art, and that kind of something hit me is that didn’t quite explain what that sculpture was. Because if you go to Pompeii and you see these houses which were highly decorated with frescoes everywhere, and then there, obviously these houses were like full of people. And this is where, living in Italy, there’s a more there’s a very active social life. And then everything’s kind of, you go into churches, they’re packed with decoration. There’s living in Florence. You see, there’s art everywhere. Art was a in the ancient world, it was as well, too. Art was an integral part of civic life, private life and sacred life, and everywhere. So it was. Art wasn’t something reserved for a museum and so and so talking about and when you look at the fawn in the museum, the archeological museum Naples, you can kind of see what he was saying wasn’t completely wrong. It’s kind of frozen into a little, little fawn frozen in a glass box. But if you imagine in the middle of a fountain with the colorful frescoes and the music and people living their lives around it, then it’s not it’s not frozen anymore. It’s living. And that’s where and a lot of the art we see in museums, most of almost 90 more than 90% was meant to be seen in houses or churches or civic buildings, and they had an other life. And so this is when you see something that’s natural habitat. That’s when you can truly understand what the work of art is, and you can comment on it so and then when you see it in that sense, that’s the fawn isn’t frozen, but it’s dancing within this kind of the life of a house, of a household with families and children and colorful walls and other things as well too, and water and sun and and gardens. And that’s that’s where I did when you go to a museum and they are and I love museums, and I spent too much time, not too much time. You never spend much time. And I love going to museums because, like visiting friends, but you can see that there. When you see altar pieces, you see other paintings. They weren’t meant to be there. They were meant to be somewhere else. And so in my kind of quest to try to figure out, why do those pictures look the way they did? You kind of also have to understand the context in which they were made. And so when we look at when talking this again, it goes back to Baroque painting, when they were thinking about the optical effects. It wasn’t because it was supposed to be in some little room. It was supposed to be in a big room. They usually artists would design things, and they had to be maybe the blessing, the benefit, but also the challenge to design things on commissions for specific spaces. And they took that into consideration when they were creating those works of art. So I was kind of, I’m curious of why would certain pictures be a certain way? Because they would optically correct them so they could look certain, look in a certain way, in a certain wall, on a certain certain lighting as well too, and that’s very obvious in religious paintings as well. So we see, when you see sacred art, you know, paintings in museums, they weren’t meant to be there. They’re meant to be in other spaces. So, and that’s kind of a, I think, a missing link in a lot of art today is we don’t make it for a specific context. And that’s not that’s that’s beyond our control. So unfortunately, so that’s where I kind of see them as art zoos. They see these poor paintings kind of stuck there, where they were meant to be in someone’s home, or meant to be they meant to be lived with every day. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s kind of like a world that’s my life mission is we just need more art on everybody’s walls and everyone’s house, so you can you live with art every day. And I think that’s another lesson of being a blessing. Living in Italy is you see that everywhere art, especially Florence, and even more so than other cities, Florence, there’s art everywhere. And so everywhere, and that’s where it’s on the street corners and the adic was these kind of little altar pieces on every corner. There’s a Madonna and child or a saint, there’s statues, there’s and then there’s. Decorated doorways. There’s door knockers. And so every part of our life is accompanied by art. And so we don’t have to go visit. And so when you have to go visit something that’s in a little room where it’s not supposed to be, that’s kind of sad, I think it’s kind of that’s why it becomes a zoo, because we don’t quite understand what they are. You don’t see seeing a tiger in a zoo is not like seeing a Tiger in the Jungle, and then you understand why the tiger is the way it is, because it’s in the jungle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:29

So, yeah, I love that. Because, like you said, you know, like, Art has always been almost like an active participant in life, and to separate it from its context. It does, it does deaden it a little bit. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of sad to experience it that way. Like, imagine if the ecstasy of st Teresa was outside of the original church, where it is like, Oh, wow, this is an amazing sculpture. But at the same time, like, you push that button, the light turns on, and you’re like, in this amazing experience of a sculpture that is meant to inspire people.

Matthew James Collins: 1:06:15

Yeah, you’re not getting the whole experience either. So if they take the out of where it’s supposed to be. It’s still a beautiful sculpture, but then it’s we’re missing something, and then it becomes something. Then it becomes something. It’s almost not. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s where, how do we solve that? I don’t know, but I was lucky, because I was commissioned to do a couple big paintings for stairwells in a school in North Dakota for a classical school. So I did the decoration of independence, and then I did the foundation of Rome. And that was a wonderful experience, because then I was able to kind of put into practice this idea of using optical taking the view lines where the pictures are seen, and then adjust the the adjust the perspective on the figures, or just this perspective on the viewpoint, so that we could design the picture in terms that how it seemed from a variety of viewpoints too. And that’s another thing where you, when we look at paintings as well, we kind of assume you’re supposed to see just from the front, from the side, but paintings are meant to be seen from all different kinds of angles too. I don’t know I get, I don’t have you. When you go to museums, it’s very kind of fun to look at paintings obliquely and looking slightly from the angle. And you can see how it changes the values and the colors as well too. So it’s this idea of discovery as well. Pictures as well. You see something from far away, and then you come brings you close to it as well, too. So this is where experiencing works of art in person, there’s lots of different levels of experience, from the first impact from a distance, as you get close, to see how things fall into different details and brush work. And so it becomes this a truly interactive experience, which is, I think, something that that, again, it’s a as you that participates in our lives and accompanies us, and then also makes us reflect about things, but also gives us joy and emotions and all these other things as well, too, and it and it makes life better. It just makes life better. I mean, there’s nothing more sad than a blank white wall for me. So what want to see pictures on them?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:20

I totally agree, yes. And that also reminded me of how Michelangelo, when he would make sculptures that we’re meant to be seen from below, he used to play with the perspective to make the upper body bigger in you know, when you would see it like eye to eye, but from below, it’s perfectly proportional, like it looks like, yeah, that’s, that’s a guy who’s perfectly proportional, but you see him, you know, eye to eye, and he’s massive, like, almost like a cone of the way that he’s increased the proportion so that it doesn’t look wonky from below, which is incredible. I mean, the fact that they this is something that is naturally thought of, right? It’s not just like, oh, make a nice sculpture and it’ll go up there. It’s like, No, I want people to see this and to understand what it is from below. I don’t want them to see a receding figure. That is. It is another part of the craft that is so amazing, and it sounds awesome. You know, the what you did the paintings to make sure that they’re seen from the correct angle. I think that’s also like next level, like art in its home, type of feeling, instead of, oh, here’s a painting that I made, and let’s find a wall where it fits. It’s more like,

Matthew James Collins: 1:09:37

Sure, then what happens? Happens. And I like, that’s not a satisfying response. And then it’s also, it goes back to the Greeks too, because the Greeks always use optical correction, I guess, for there’s architecture and sculptures, and that’s where because, and that just shows you, maybe they were looking at the world in a better way than we are. So they’re seeing things that a bit more profound, not profoundly, but they were looking more. Closely, and then living things more fully, too. That’s, again, we tend to coast over things. Now this is just kind of flip across screens and flip across images without truly looking at them, but again, maybe looking at something. And then that’s why we take that, I guess, as ours, we take that on as a responsibility, because if someone’s going to spend time looking at our works of art, we want something to be deep and something that will be rewarding over a long period of time, too. So the same kind of esthetic experience we get when we go to museums, if we have to, that’s to see Van Dyke and everything and Titian, but we see go every time you go back to a masterpiece painting, it never disappoints, and you see new things, and it’s like a it’s there’s a and that’s even a when. And as artists, we see things in a certain way. But even regular people, let’s say this civilian life, they see things that they do enjoy art as well, too. I mean, that’s what’s kind of I think, in hardening is when you see how popular the sergeant show was. I mean, how many people visited that? How many people visited the Bouguer show before there’s a Van Dyke Show, there’s the Reynolds show. So figurative art is kind of making, not just a comeback, but people are are interested in these things as well too, and not just in terms of a an economic, financial thing, but, you know, average, normal people are interested in in art as well too, and it’s our responsibility to make things that are engaging interesting, and then through poetry, they understand this kind of idea of catharsis, and this idea of living through works of art as well too, in a healthy way.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:36

So, yeah, yeah, not saying it is, you know, like you said, like, Oh, it’s just something you swipe on, you know, it like, I also agree it’s our responsibility to make something or to continue to create works that stop people in their tracks. And, you know, instead of making something that’s consumable, like, you know, I think about how commodified like decoration has become, like, even just very simple, like, even this, you know, this video, right? Me editing it like it took, it takes a while to edit a video we become so accustomed to, like, oh yes, of course, it’s being edited. That’s how it is. But that also is something that takes time and effort to put in a specific composition and to make it easy on the eyes, but we take that for granted. But that’s why it’s also good to make paintings and pieces that people certainly will stop and look at and realize, oh, every corner of this 2d surface right has taken a single brush stroke or multiple brushstrokes to fit by a single hand, instead of just, oh yeah, that’s just how it is, because that’s what we expect. Like there’s, I feel like there’s a bit of a disconnect too there. But yeah, I wanted to ask you too, because you mentioned, you know, having you have your courses that you teach, and you also have commissions that you’ve taken. What are some of the avenues that you’ve taken to both live from your work and or from your skills and expertise?

Matthew James Collins: 1:13:12

Well, galleries always help, so I but I’m not a real get big gallery. I tend to paint, and my paintings change, and ideas change, and so I tend to create paintings. But there’s, I have a painting, there’s a one’s going to Lisbon. My figurative work tends to be a bit buried, and travel to different, smaller galleries across Europe. And then I do I’ve been always doing portrait commissions as well, too. So there’s a bit of always getting your work out there and sharing it with people, because that’s what we because that’s what we wanted. We want to, obviously, we’re looking trying to find ourselves, but we want to share our journey with other people. And I think that’s another and again, essentially what we do in creating works of art is we’re trying to share this kind of beautiful experience that we have in creating art with other people. And I think that’s important as well too. We create it for ourselves, but without anyone seeing it. That’s that’s very romantic 19th century bohemian idea, but deep down, we want to people to see the kind of the world and share our vision and so and then so and so different gallery shows. But I’ve never been a big into commercial galleries, because it’s my work tends to be a bit kind of idiosyncratic. But portrait commissions have always been wonderful as well, too. And then I do, I do teaching as well too. So I was teaching at Cecil for a while, and then I’m teaching at a university here in Florence. And then I do, I tend to, and I do some private lessons in my studio now as well too, being slightly dis, I don’t, I’m not, contrary to workshops, but I kind of do a successful workshop. Certain things have to happen. And then the kind of condensing of what I want to kind of transmit, especially in terms of portraiture, which I think I’ve a lot to share, it’s difficult to do in a three or four days as well, too. So I kind of, I always try to paint along with the people that I’m from the very beginning to the end too. So I don’t. Like, do a demo, right? And then everyone paints. I kind of paint as everyone else is painting. And then I kind of teach so this way, and I talk and paint at the same time, yes, so I can do both. So you kind of try to, because a lot of painting is, I think, in terms of teaching painting, it’s seeing how someone paints, and seeing what they’re doing, and then kind of intervene, what is the title? Where’s intervenida is kind of step in at the right moment and then put them on track or change something or adjust something. So, because people tend to do things without thinking about it, they’re used to it. And then, if they’re mixing it, Colorize, oh no, to do that, and then change this. No, stand there. Look at this. And so without seeing someone do that, or just have them do it on their own, and then correct afterward, I see as less productive as being right there and so. And then that kind of limits, obviously what I can do. So I only have a certain amount of space, so I tend to only have one or two students at the most, and then I paint a portrait along with them too. I think that’s maybe the best way to teach anyway, so, but obviously there’s not. There’s other ways to teach as well, too, and you can definitely transmit a lot as transmit a lot as well, too. So I tend to certain painters come in and visit me, and then they kind of, we just paint a portrait together, and that’s one way of learning.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:09

So, yeah, yeah, no, but that’s a that’s an excellent point, because that was actually one of my frustrations as a student as well. Is being told after the fact, oh, no, you did this wrong. And it’s like, Well, you saw me. Why didn’t you intervene, like how you were saying because that would have prevented me from spending so much time trying to resolve something that I could have avoided. But I think, you know, that’s, that’s one of the hard parts as well, and probably the one of the reasons you you keep so few students is because it is hard to do that for every single student when there’s so many of them and only one instructor. Yeah, so I

Matthew James Collins: 1:16:49

and teaching is a skill too. So this is where it’s I was lucky. Where I was, where I studied, I got was an excellent teacher, so I learned teaching skills there. So teaching is communication, it’s also empathy, and then it’s also direction. And so those three different kind of, let’s say, elements come together. I think to make good teaching is where you have to empathize with what the students going through doing, and then you have to be able, to be able, you have to know what the what they should be doing, and then you have to give them direction to do it as well too. So, and that’s and communicate that in a productive way too. Yeah, I’ve had lots and lots of really bad art teachers over the years, and so just, just terrible. And so when I try to endeavor is not do what they did. So because I’ve had studying fresco, they secure and they just come, they say, It’s all wrong, it’s terrible, it’s all bad. I was like, well, that’s thank you for the feedback. But then how do you make that better? Nothing. So it’s like, so yeah, there’s plenty of people that, there’s plenty of teachers that are antiso. Teaching is a, I think, a great way, if you’re an artist, to supplement and to, let’s say, work and share the knowledge that you acquire. But I think first, as we mentioned before, in July, so the problem. So let’s say the the problems of, let’s say contemporary art schools, where students are teaching, they are not teaching very much, and they don’t know how to teach. And so that becomes a problem too. So first, learn how to do something, and then being able to communicate it. Then you become you can teach too. So giving lessons and other things, and obviously need a learning curve. It’s not like you learn how to teach like that. It’s practice. But so definitely, teaching is a, I think, a nice way to augment your because being an artist is hard. It’s a terrible it’s that. It’s terrible, it’s hard, it’s stressful, it’s some people are commercially minded, and they can really make the jump. Like people are commercial artists go into fine art, but they become commercial Fine Arts, and that’s fantastic, and they make very beautiful things. But if that’s not your personality, you just have to kind of deal with that as well, too. But I think in terms of teaching, you have to be able to, as you’ve experienced firsthand, you have to be able to transmit something and help people. If you can’t, well, then that’s you’re you’re benefiting, but the student’s not benefiting as well. So that’s kind of a shame in the end.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:08

So yeah, yeah. And I think it’s almost like a rite of passage for many of us to experience not so great teachers. It’s inevitable. I mean, not everyone that we meet is going to be an excellent teacher. But I think it also teaches us how not to teach, which

Matthew James Collins: 1:19:25

is really great. And then also someone and obviously, art is hard, so obviously, if companies discouraging you, then you just have to keep going. So obviously, if you’re easily discouraged and you stop, well maybe you should, because art is hard and art is it’s hard on every different level. But if it’s something that drives you forward and it needs you, and you need to do it, and you want to do it, then you just do it. And then obviously all the obstacles that are in the way will you overcome them one way or the other. And then obviously it’s but that’s what you. That, unfortunately, it’s not easy, and so you need a thick skin to be an artist, but also you need to believe in yourself as well too. So this is where it’s all again. It’s a it is this kind of circle of contradictions, where these different things come together, where you have to move forward as well.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:15

So yes, absolutely. And I know you just gave some really excellent advice, but do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Matthew James Collins: 1:20:29

Well, I think we’re all full time artists if we’re thinking about and doing it too. So this is where, again, if you if, if you have to get sidelined doing a little bit of this and doing that, that’s where it’s I think we’re kind of, you’re born an artist, and then you can, you can, if you have find the opportunity to express yourself and then be able to make a living off of it, that’s fantastic, because we have to make a living. But in the end, you shouldn’t. Again, unfortunately, that’s how the world is today. I think it’s a shame, because there’s a lot of poetic people that are discouraged from going into the arts because they don’t think there’s an opportunity in it, or they can’t make a decent living, and other things as well too. But if you’re destined to do it, you’ll do it and then just kind of overcome those obstacles as well to become a full time artist. Very rarely are people that are, let’s say, poetically inclined, full time artists, because they, unfortunately, there’s a lot of different ideas that go in together there too. So you just kind of, kind of, I don’t have good advice in that sense, though,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:37

I totally get you. It’s a It’s rough. It’s really rough. I mean, that’s why some people, I think, get day jobs, or they become teachers, or we’re in a bit of a strange time in the world right now. So I think there are weird, different opportunities that appear somehow. But yeah, it’s hard to give concrete advice. I totally agree.

Matthew James Collins: 1:22:00

Yeah, you do the best you can. And then obviously, it also depends on the personality as well, too, and what you want to do. So I mean, this is where, if you’re true to yourself, whatever you do, and then you can still be a great artist and sell, let’s say landscapes. And you could still, still lives. And you can do it as long as you’re being sincere and true to yourself. And for me, if you make beautiful things, that’s the most important thing. And then, obviously, sooner or later, they will be appreciated. Unfortunately, sometimes it’s later, it’s not sooner and so and then, obviously, there’s lots of other aspects of becoming a full time artist, which is networking and business sense and then, but some, I think it’s a lot of those, and then knowing how to insert yourself in certain environments, and then getting certain ideas and gallery shows and but that’s has very little to do with art, as we were mentioned in the very beginning of the conversation about the let’s say art, basil and other things as well, too. That’s a whole different kind of you can become a full time artist and not be a very good artist. And so that’s when you can be a great artist and not be able to be a full time artist too. So but again, that’s, I think there’s space for everybody. So you just have to find out where you fit in there and then do the best you can.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:10

So yeah, yeah, that’s all you really can do. There’s room for everyone. I do. I do agree, yeah. And then if someone wants to take classes with you, or if they want to see more of your work, do you have any exhibitions going on, or anything that you would like to promote?

Matthew James Collins: 1:23:34

But anyone’s interested in taking less wants to come study privately, send me a message, and then, as I do, plenty commissions, anyone’s interested in getting a nice portrait painted, they can always contact me. It’s come out to Florence as well, too. And so and I have a paintings in different museums. So if you happen to be in Barcelona, there’s a painting in the museum there and their permanent collection, and a painting in Florida and in Orlando, at the basilica there. So there’s obviously seeing paintings in real life is the best so, but that’s unfortunate, and galleries in the USA, there’s a nice there’s a jack Meyer gallery of some paintings and sculptures there. So I’ve had the end to be there. So, but other than that, if you come to flourishes, write me, and then you can come visit. So it’d be a pleasure to see other artists and other artists and other art students. Anyone wants to come, just

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:25

contact me. Awesome. Yeah. And then what is your website? And if you have social media, the website

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:31

is like, my name, luckily, Matthew James Collins, and then Instagram is the same thing. Matthew James Collins, artist, so

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:39

perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matthew For the very informative, inspiring conversation. I this was brain candy for me. Oh, well,

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:51

thank you. It’s a pleasure chatting with your wonderful conversationalist.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:54

So thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you to everyone out there for. Listening to the podcast, your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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Today’s Article

The following article was written by Debra Keirce, a regular contributing author to The BoldBrush Letter.

Big Steps, Little Steps

It sounds like the title of a Dr. Seuss book, doesn’t it? One Step, Two Step, Big Step, Blue Step.

What are you doing to build momentum enough to realize your objectives by the end of the year? Are you chugging caffeine and attacking the big steps? Or, have you been entering the little steps into a color coded spreadsheet you will never look at again? Some seasons I do both.

But which do you think are more important to invest in?

One day at a time is a phrase we have all heard. But we also know that go for broke, risking everything in a breakout effort to succeed, is a strategy. I have been frustrated with them all. Usually I get impatient waiting for the payout on the one day at a time to happen. But, my bank account and energy stores can’t handle much of the go for broke attempts.

Whether it is a large or small act, it is depleting our resources, and we are looking for a return on that investment. But in this art business, the ROI is rarely obvious. It can take years of hard work to get a single sale.

So what can we do? I often get sick of hearing that as long as I am moving forward, I shouldn’t worry if I only do a small bit of the task. That’s always when I encounter a mud puddle I know I am going to have to jump over.

I was thinking about this recently when I spoke with a friend of mine. Thomas Nash is an amazing, and very successful, portrait artist who built his career through word of mouth, one referral at a time. Half a century ago, he began by doing what he knew he was good at. The first ten years of his career were spent on the streets of Gatlinburg and other tourist towns doing pastel portraits from life. Then he “moved up” to sketching portraits in shopping malls where he could work indoors. Today, he is in his own studio, turning away five figure commissions that don’t feel like a good fit for him.

That is the kind of artistic swagger we all dream of.

Tom’s secret sauce? He identified from the start, what his interests were. He liked people and he liked painting faces. For over 50 years now, he has been working hard to be less bad at these two things, every single day. He didn’t worry about whether he was taking big or little steps toward his goals. He just focused on creating the best relationships with his clients and on becoming a more skilled artist. As a result, his collectors typically came back like loyal boomerangs, and improved skills allowed him to raise his prices. That was Tom’s strategy - be better at what you are already good at. It worked for him.

Then there’s my story, I crashed the party a little late. When I began my career in earnest, I did the math. I knew that realistically, I only had 40 to 50 years at most to live, and then only if I ate more kale and adopted a “blue zone” lifestyle. I knew that at best, I could probably only count on about 30 of those years being productive, before my hands decide they are done creating.

Naturally, I panicked. I had to try all the media, all the subjects, all the marketing ploys, in order to figure out which ones worked for me. I felt like a human pinball in a gallery-shaped machine.

After a decade of frantic situations for building a skillset, teaching, creating, advertising, and selling, I finally got to where my friend Thomas started, I think. I am taking it one day at a time. The “sprint” phase of website and social media and resume building is mostly over. Now, I am zeroing in on what I actually love. Compared to my early pace, I am taking baby steps. I just need the stamina to keep walking at a steady pace, without tripping over my own ambition.

Where are you on this chaotic continuum? Are you taking superhero sized leaps, or are you in a more eloquent high heeled part of the journey? Or are you in a weird combination of both, like wearing the high heels but walking on cobblestones?

Leave a comment

Debra Keirce
www.DebKArt.com

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In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career: collectors. Our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long-term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialogue—through conversations at shows, home salon events, and gallery openings. Many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media, and even texting to stay in touch, share new work, and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity, from handwritten thank-you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers but possible friends, supporters, and “connectors” whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Episodes mentioned in order of appearance:

• 81 Steve Atkinson

• 87 Johanna Spinks

• 94 Karen Blackwood

• 61 Nanci France-Vaz

• 99 Heather Arenas

• 101 Joseph Gyurcsak

• 120 Kim Casebeer

• 130 Scott Ruthven

• 162 David Griffin

• 166 Miriam Schulman

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Steve Atkinson: 0:00

You need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that they’re collecting.

Johanna Spinks: 0:17

You know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime.

Scott Ruthven: 0:23

Nurture your community, your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give?

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career, collectors, our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialog through conversations at shows, home, salon events and gallery openings, many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media and even texting to stay in touch, share new work and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity from handwritten thank you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers, but possible friends, supporters and connectors, whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Steve Atkinson: 1:52

The other thing that illustration gave me and being an illustrator, is understanding people are going to roast me for this, understanding that art is a business, and so if you want to make a living at art, you need to not just be excellent at your technique, especially if you’re you know, representational artists, you also need to be able to understand that there are deadlines, especially if You’re in galleries or in shows. You need to be able to get things done on time. You need to make a profit, make a little bit of a profit, otherwise, you know, you’re going to end up like so many artists that just can’t make a living at it, and understanding, Oh, the other big thing, the big difference between illustration and fine art, is that with fine art, it really is centered on it’s a relationship based way of living with illustration. You have, you know, your commercial clients come to you with with fine art, you need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that They’re collecting. They and this is true in all business. People do business with people that they like, and so having that email list is so important, having social media is important. Advertising can be important, but picking up the phone and calling people who have bought your work and staying in touch with them so important, and something that I’m trying to get better at, because I’m a big introvert, but luckily, I have learned that one on one, I’m I’m really good, but Talking to big crowds of people, or going to shows where there’s a big crowd, that’s a little more daunting for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:06

That’s That’s understandable. I completely relate to that. It is definitely a lot easier to, you know, have your focus on one person. I also get very overwhelmed in large groups. But, yeah, those are excellent, excellent, excellent points. And I think you know, especially, you know, if you have a career in illustration, right, or, like when you did, you get used to all that. Maybe not the one on one collector side, but you definitely get used to deadlines speed and okay, you got to get this done exactly the way that the client wants it. Because, of course, the client is the one who tells you exactly tells you exactly what they want. Versus, you know, in fine art, you can come up with almost anything and and then the collectors have to come to you, you know, but you have to put yourself out there. So it’s a little bit of a back and forth, different, yeah,

Steve Atkinson: 4:57

yeah, yeah, most definitely. And I. I think so often we don’t understand that it really is a relationship driven kind of kind of a calling. I didn’t realize that when I first started, and I’ll tell this little story, I was at a show, and a lot of times you’ll see when artists are at the show, the artists will glom together. You’ll you’ll see somebody that you know, who’s an artist, and you’ll go over and talk to them. And there’s all these collectors that are, that are there, or people that you don’t know yet, and you can spend your whole time just talking to an artist or a bunch of artists that you know. And I had, one time I had someone come up and insert themselves into a conversation that I was having with another artist, and they didn’t know who I was, and when they found that, they said, Oh, are you in the show? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. And they said, well, where’s your art? And it was a show that had many different rooms of art. And I said, Oh, it’s over in this room, over here. And went on to talking to the person that I was talking with. My wife comes up afterwards, and she said, Honey, you may want, if someone comes up and asks where your art is, you may want to take them over and show them. So I never made that mistake again. But it’s just one of those things that’s not innate, unless you realize that you’re building relationships. And it’s nice to talk to the people that you know, but it’s much better to go up and talk to someone, maybe, who’s looking at your art or someone else, and find out what their tastes are in art and start that conversation where they’re from. Do they have any artwork? Is it prints? Is it originals? What do they look for in a painting? I just find that if you start talking to people about what their likes are, the conversation is so easy. I mean it, people love talking about themselves, and so you just go down that road, ask them a question, and you can just nod for 10 minutes, you know. Or a lot of times, you’ll find you have a lot in common. I have made such good friends doing that, and to this day, not just people who buy my art, but people who you just generally like you genuinely like. So it’s, it’s a great experience, if you look at it as this person has something to offer me. I don’t know them, but I know we have things in common. We just have to figure out what they are, yeah, so that’s it. I’m off my soapbox.

Johanna Spinks: 7:35

Dave touched me too. It’s a two way street, you know, and the conversations that we had, and by the way, in the face of Ventura, we I linked in with a newspaper, and all those sitters went on to a radio show too, so after the sketch had been painted. So it really was about, you know, telling their story. And I think that’s what made it powerful, actually. And I will say, if you’re going to do these kind of things again, if you’re interested in putting your artwork out there in terms of marketing, and we have to talk about marketing that, you know, be kind of thinking, Well, you know, what is the end game of this as well? You know, because going off and painting 130 portraits of people is a big time commitment, as you know, doing a show like this, those things are a time commitment. You’ve got to arrange it. You’ve got to do this, that and the other and it was a significant part of my yearly thing, doing that. So I was very aware right from the beginning that they were never going to be for sale, that they were, I think I sold one of them, and then said I did sell one of them, and it was a very bad idea. Changed my mind and asked if I could have it back and give her a painting instead, which, which she lovely, lovely. So agreed to, because this the Boone Special Collections archives had asked if they could take the Malibu and rebuild series into their collection. And she was one, one of the paintings that was missing I needed, I needed to have her included. So in terms of marketing and building your brand, you decide where you’re you know what you’re aiming for. I mean, I really wanted those portraits to be archivally stored somewhere. And I just started with that intention from the very beginning. And it took a lot of effort and a lot of very good people in the towns to help me achieve that. And that goes back to the one on one contact with people you know, the people that that are your connectors. You know, just, you know, nurture those the connectors. You know that somebody said, somebody famous, and I hope I’m not misquoting, but you know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime, and I say if you have 50 serious connectors, you know people who like you, like your art, and. Stay with you over the years that will take you so far. You know, the connectors are as gold as the connectors collectors are. Connectors are as gold as collectors. So, yeah, I would say, always have in mind, you know, that the mountain you’re trying to reach in terms of, you know, well, could this go somewhere? So with the 365 days of drawing, you know, there was a show, there was a book, self published book, there was a article in American artist magazine that was so never think, Oh, I’ve done this. That’s it. Like, think, well, what can I do with it afterwards? Because a lot of the stuff for me happened after the individual Town projects were finished, the paintings were in storage. And then then I said, Well, now I start the what do we do with this?

Karen Blackwood: 10:51

Surely have one collector that is one of my best collectors, who found me online when I lived in Michigan and bought a piece and continues to buy my work out here now, and I’ve had her to my home, and I usually will have a once a year salon show at home where I invite only my collectors or future collectors, kind of like a way to just show them what I’m working on, so they become, you know, friends, and I value them. And then through my galleries, I would say, you know, they maintain a really strong relationship with collectors. And anytime I’m working on a new piece, they’ll make sure that collector gets to see it. And then out on social media, you know, people get to stay in touch. And the newsletter actually on the FASO website, my newsletter. I built a strong following during covid. I couldn’t paint my large paintings. I thought I would kill them and I and I knew I had to paint. So I did a that I could keep working. And I knew I could sustain focus for, you know, a six by eight. So I think I painted about 80 of them, close to 80, and sold them all through my newsletter on FASO. So I would let the buyers know that, you know, next Tuesday, you know, look for my newsletter and first come, first serve. It gets sold to, you know, whoever tells me I want it. And so I built up, you know, I think I added 400 followers from that campaign, on that, on that newsletter, because they were buying the painting. So, so the newsletter is also a big thing, I would say, social media and keeping in touch through a consistent newsletter on FASO has been, yeah, fine art studio online, for those who don’t know, galleries

Nanci France-Vaz: 13:17

is somebody else’s business, and you know, you’re taking a chance that they are going to put you in front of their collectors. Some of the problems today that I see with that, I think in the 90s or turn of the 21st Century, you know, they’re they were really good before the whole social media thing. And I think since social media came out, as a business owner myself, I kind of can feel for, you know, social media artists are able to sell on their own right now, but of course, they have to find the collectors. That’s very difficult to do. I’ve done it, and I have done, you know, in the past year, I do have those collectors that have seen my work through Instagram, and so that’s why I focus on Instagram, or I read about them, and then I went to an event that they were at, and I didn’t say anything to them. I just got to know them. And, you know, I became, I guess, very extroverted as I got older. I was more introverted when I was younger, and then after gymnastics, I would say, in my 30s, I started to come into my own. And then in my 40s, now I was selling. And so I found that you have to get along with people. You have to network by just becoming their friend. You have to build relationships. That’s what business is all about. Build relationships, whether it’s with a gallery, with a collector on Instagram. You know, some people just want people to like their work and follow them, but they never comment or like. Your work, there’s a lot of people like that, so it’s got to be reciprocal. You have to build relationships. Doesn’t matter how many followers that person has. So I try to do that. I try to build relationships with some galleries. I felt like I wasn’t ready because I wanted to find my voice. Now I am. So that’s why I went with Dasha. When Lee asked me to do a solo show, I said, I’m out of inventory. I only have one painting left, and I sold most of those on my own. But I do want to be in a gallery too, because I think both can be lucrative. If I am in a gallery and I’m signed to a gallery, if I have a collector that goes to the gallery, you know, I always get the gallery 50% I don’t undercut a gallery. I think that’s wrong to do. Somebody asked me, you don’t take 50% of your price. I go, No, absolutely not. I do exactly what my gallery would do if my gal, if it wasn’t seen in my gallery, and it’s my client, and I’m not represented by a gallery, I’m just a guest artist. I can sell my work on my own. There is no contract, right? So I do give them, I start with 10% and you know, I won’t give more than you know, some galleries that have asked me, can you go 20% but I’ve had it enough so that I feel like, if I’m going to give up 50% then I’m still making money, especially if I have to ship it. So you gotta, it’s very hard to do your homework. Find the right Gallery and the right galleries that really believes in you, that wants to sell you work. Well, you know what? I think everybody’s trying to figure out the landscape and how to render that landscape for their business and and it’s all good. I totally get it. Like social media changed everything. So they’re trying to figure it out. You’re trying to figure it out. I think being with the gallery, being my mother was a business owner. I’m a business owner. You know, if I had a staff, I would want them to be loyal to me, absolutely. They absolutely have the right I’m definitely Pro Gallery, but you have to pick the right one that works for you. But there are some excellent galleries out there that have artists for a long time, and they have artists for a long time, and they always give them a solo show, and they do quite well with them, and those are the ones that you want to strive to be in. That’s the struggle of artists, whether they’re younger or older. You could be older and breaking into the business. There’s no such thing as age. Age isn’t the number. You know, you can develop work and be quite good at 80 years old. You don’t have to start on year five. It all depends on the time you put in. You have to look at me. I went on the hamster wheel, and I’m trying to catch up, and I think I’m there. I caught up to a certain extent. I wish I had 40 more years in this. Maybe I do, I don’t know, but I think you have to try all of it and see what works the best. But I think having a lot of different venues to try out is good a friend of mine. Francine Craig is a friend of mine, and, you know, she’s done AI. I don’t have any problem with that, as long as they’re not saying it, it’s a painting. You know, they should have their own venue and be able to sell their work their artists, too. But I tend to like traditional work, and she goes into auctions. And I said, Oh, really? She said, Oh, it’s a lower price point. I said, Well, maybe I could do studies that are like six by nine or eight by 10, like real, Listen Live. I put this little, small five by five inch painting in their auction because I was part of the faculty this year, and it sold, and I’ve had it for a few years now, you know, I’m like, Oh, why didn’t I think of doing that? You know? So you never know. Try everything. If that doesn’t work, try something else. Put that painting somewhere else. Maybe it’ll hit that collector base right at

Laura Arango Baier: 19:15

FASO, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrushshow.com that’s BoldBrushshow.com the FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that. Come true, and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Heather Arenas: 20:45

your relationship with your gallery is one that you nurture. And my galleries are a partner with me, like we are both going for a good common cause. They want to make money. I want to make money. And so we’re going to work together to make that happen. And I think that there are a lot of people who are like, Oh, the calories. Are trying to do me wrong, and that’s just not the case. They just, they want to help you as much as help themselves. So it’s definitely a partnership. And so we discuss, you know, whether or not they are willing to give me a collector’s name, and am I going to go around them to go sell directly to that collector? Heck no. You know, I mean, I have a understanding with my galleries that I won’t undercut them. I won’t knock the sale out from underneath of them, any collector that is connected with the gallery. I’m going to run that sale right through the gallery, so because it benefits me just as much, this is a long term relationship. So that being said, one of the things that I do is, if I know that I am going to deliver work, which the two galleries that I have right now are within driving distance, so I will drive my work to the gallery, and ahead of time, I’ll send out a newsletter that basically says I’m going to be at the gallery on this date, and I would love to meet up, come and meet me at the gallery, and we can talk about this piece, you know. And so I’ve met a few collectors that way, who either already bought my work or have been dying to see the work in person, and they met me there, and we forged a relationship together, and that in person thing is just wonderful, and I tried to do that As much as possible. Now I have collectors in England, in France, you know? I mean, I’m not going to get to meet every collector in person, but I love it when they engage with me. And so I will, sometimes, I’ll post a photo of the painting, say, sold online on one of my social media sites, and then the collector will come forth and say, Oh, it was me that bought it. And I’m like, great. This is wonderful. Then I have a conversation that I can engage with them and find out a little bit more why they like the piece, a little bit more about them. And so I’m just always open to the conversation, I guess. And to that end, I send out a newsletter once a month or more, and I try to post on my Instagram page two to three times a week. And I’m just me. I’m not nearly as polished as a lot as a lot of the people who post on Instagram and all the videos that they’re doing now I’m like, I try, I do the best that I can, but I am what I am,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:50

yeah, and honestly, the efforts that you’re putting in are definitely paying off, right? Because I love that idea of, Oh, hey guys, I’m going to be at the gallery this day, and I’d love to meet any of you who’ve collected my work. That’s that’s awesome, because, yeah, oftentimes I have met artists who are, I guess, since there’s that relationship with the gallery, right, and the gallery doesn’t always share who your collector is, you might as well just like, put your foot out there and be like, hey, you know what? I invite you guys to hang out, literally, at the place where you bought my work, or want to buy my work. And that feels a lot more safe, and I don’t know, than trying to, quote, unquote, steal those exact collectors out from the gallery. Yeah.

Heather Arenas: 24:27

Well, and I’ll work with the gallery, and they invite people to come and see me too, you know. So if they know somebody who has been interested in my work, they will specifically call them up and say, Heather’s going to be there on such and such a date, you know? And then we coordinate a time, and I get there, you know, I’m not, I’m not a flaky artist in that I do what I say I’m going to do, and I show up. That’s 90% of the game, right? It’s just show up and then do the work. So Exactly, yeah, it works out really well, though, to have. Have that kind of partnership and understanding with the gallery.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:03

You have to develop friendship. You have to have a gallery that really believes in you don’t just try to be in a gallery where you say, Please, can I get in your gallery? That’s the wrong position to go in. You need to be in places where they say, Yeah, I believe in this work, and because, if they believe in it, they’re going to sell it, because they at the end of the day, when somebody walks in the gallery, remember The Gallerist or the gallery director, those are the people that are going to speak about you. So they have to know you. They have to believe you. You have to develop a relationship. You only need one good gallery. You don’t need a 1020, of them. I mean, I know some artists have that, but really, you have to have that sincere relationship connection to the you know, sometimes the galleries don’t share who the collectors that bought it. Sometimes they do. That depends on the relationship and how that goes. But if you do have a collector that buys from you straight up direct, because I sell things on Instagram or, you know, through my website, or if somebody comes around and says, I bought this from the gallery, always make sure that you send out some sort of Thank you, and that’s really a good thing, like thank you for supporting me and my famp. We send out a note, like a card, and it says, Thank you for supporting me and my fam, my journey, my family, this and that. People have to know how much that means that, you know, you invested in me and gave me I used to make a joke, but I and people would think I’m really seriously. Say, yeah, if I don’t sell pain this month, my my wife said I can’t paint anymore, really. Oh, my god, yeah, so I need to sell, you know. But aside from all the joking, yes, you’re supporting somebody’s journey, you know. And you know, back in the day, if you read the old art books, they would have like, what you call a sponsor, like somebody sponsoring you to be an artist. Well, yeah, artists need to make money like everybody else. So when you find those people that do support, you, let them know. You know how much that means. Just a little note to them or something to keep them in the loop. I’m not that great on my website for doing the newsletters, but I when I just finished a workshop in Belgium. The artists really said, I said, I don’t want to bug people all the time with a newsletter this and that. Say, well, even if you do it four times a year, so I’m actually going to do that based on the feedback I got from this workshop. I’m going to try to do a newsletter every quarter, at least, because I think I didn’t realize that they were telling me they want to hear what I’m doing. So I’m like, okay, yeah, I’m going to do it. We’re going to do it. Yeah? So there’s a goal right there that I’m going to do that I haven’t been doing. You know, make adjustments everything we’re talking about. You hear something, hey, that’s to your advantage. If people are giving you feedback and it’s positive, you have to do something right first.

Kim Casebeer: 28:29

I think it’s very important to show up. So if there is an exhibit, if you are part of an exhibit at a gallery or an art center, or really any place you should you should show up. You should be there, especially during the opening, for sure, and perhaps other times too, I have had situations where the gallery, this is more local my Kansas City Gallery, that’s not very far away, so it’s easier for me to get to it’s a few hours where we’ve had an opening and I’m there. And then we also do, maybe another day, the next day, do a like a demo day, a more relaxed day where we’re demoing and and the idea is, is that we can talk more one on one with people, because it’s not quite as busy, it’s not quite as crowded as the opening night was. And then I’ve had situations where perhaps we try a an ending Reception The show is getting ready, because most of the shows are two, three months long, and then you have an ending reception where people can reconnect with you. And so I think you have to, you have to go to those and and connect, connect with your collectors. Yeah, I think that’s very important, but they also collectors will also connect with you in other ways. And one way I do that is with newsletters. So I have, I actually have two newsletters. One is. I would call it a general newsletter. So it has the show information, but it also has workshop information, classes, all those types of things. So a lot of artists subscribe to that newsletter. And then I have a second newsletter that is dedicated to collectors. And at least mine is, it’s a little smaller, but it is, I would say it’s just as important. And it only talks about the shows that are coming up or or maybe a photo of what’s on my easel at at this moment, those types of things that a collector is going to really be invested in.

Scott Ruthven: 30:40

And then, if you don’t mind, I always like to ask people, How did you find me? Whether it’s a collector, I asked you this when you reached out to me, right? And it’s, it fascinates me. The and I an example I just give is a recent I just picked up some commission for multiple paintings, right? And it’s people that just live an hour away from me, but they found my work when they were visiting their son in California at a gallery in a show that I’m in. So, you know, I’m just a local guy for them, really, and but they saw my painting in person, and they like it. And they said, Hey, this is a Colorado guy. They looked me up. They signed up for my email, and now I’ve got some business from them. So you never know. It just such a great and the YouTube channel I started because I was getting more requests to teach workshops. I do teach plein air workshops, but they take a lot of time, and I’m teaching eight or 10 people, because I don’t like to have a huge crowd. I think I really want to have that individual attention that I give to my students. But there’s only one of me, and the time is just, you know, I can’t the trade off in time is too much. So I started the YouTube channel as a way to just kind of do some live streams and that type of thing and and try to share how I paint. And then that became a community of people that tune in for those and the followership grew. I did monetize eventually, although I’m not gonna, you know, it’s like, it’d be my full time job, because it’s that’s not what I want to do. But I like to teach. I like to share. And so that’s a community of its own. I’ve sold work to that community. But you know, really, I try to, I try to give more than you know, a trick I would pass along is to nurture your community. Your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give? How can you, you know, and giving might just be taking an interest in their life, sending them a nice note, remembering a birthdays, texting them. I mean, I’m on with I text with my collectors. I’m sure a lot of the you know artists do as well, but that’s a great thing to do, because it doesn’t really take anything. Everybody texts today. It’s an easy thing. If you know somebody’s birthday, text them a happy birthday, and so, you know, seek to give some value, rather than always just pulling value out of your audience, whether it’s YouTube or your email list, your your galleries, that kind of thing. Because this emotional bank concept, if you’ve heard of it, you know, you can’t, you can’t keep making withdrawals out of your bank account without putting deposits in. So, you know, I seek to make more deposits than withdrawals.

David Griffin: 33:28

The other purpose is, is giving me a chance to connect in a different way with collectors. Galleries are important, and they have been important to me, but they don’t offer the opportunity to meet and speak on an extended period of time with someone that’s interested in buying your work. Most of it’s done remotely. I’m not there when it happens. Shows are different matter. You can actually speak to, you know, an exhibit at a museum show or at the Coors show. You can actually speak to the people why they’re interested. What, what, what stopped them, what connected? And that’s what I really want to spend also in this art of wandering journey is hopefully being able to connect with new collectors and and establish a relationship, create an opportunity for for the collector to be part of the process of what I’m doing. Not that they would tell me what to do, but I want to know what. I want to know what, what made them aware of what I’m doing, what made them if it stopped them, fine, if it angered them, if it made them happy, if it brought them some peace. I need to know about all that, and the only way I can know about that is having a conversation, or some sort of dialog with them. So that’s the other part of this process. Journey is I want to, I want to open up that avenue of you. Of connecting on a deeper level with the collector or the interested parties. It’s just going to help me better. It’s going to help me communicate better. It’s going to be helped me to be a better artist. It’ll probably help me be a better person. I’ll find out. You know, what it is that I’m doing, if it makes any sense at all to anybody, if it matters. So those are the things that I think are on my mind today and will be for a while. And isn’t it wonderful for me? Isn’t this such a blessing for me to be able to because you’re the first one, you are the initial platform that I’ve been able to that I’ve been given opportunity to announce this new endeavor. So I’m grateful to you for the timing and for the opportunity to talk about what’s on my heart today. So thank you Laura and and BoldBrush and and Faso and all the other thing, all this, this umbrella of wonderful creative people that have given me the opportunity to show my work in such a wonderful fashion. So that’s it continues to be a cool collaboration from my end of the stick, or my end of the bargain of surrounding myself with people that that allow me to be better at what I’m doing.

Miriam Schulman: 36:30

So Instagram tends to be a little bit more confessional. I wouldn’t be as confessional on LinkedIn as maybe Instagram is, but much of the content you’ve posted in the past on those other platforms are it’s exactly the same thing. They like, videos, pictures of your art in progress, your values, pictures of you working your studio pet, all those things. Of course, you don’t have a studio pet, maybe your studio goldfish, I don’t know, yes, yes, all those things behind the scenes content, but you want to make it behind the scenes content that’s interesting to collectors, not other artists. So not, Oh, I couldn’t decide whether to use Payne’s gray or whatever, and this is how I saved my painting. That’s something artists care about. Behind the scenes content for collectors, it’s a different flavor so they want It’s like the difference between knowing how the sausages are made, that’s what artists care about, versus what’s the speech that the waiter gives when he’s telling you the specials that’s like what a collector wants. It’s like the magic,

Kim Lordier: 37:50

I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of. I think, like a lot of us throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium, we have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows. So my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base. And that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know, my friends, people that are who may be listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s your way, and It’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we, kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work. You. Again, remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important. But I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:24

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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This piece originally appeared on my personal Substack, Clinsights, here. It has been edited and improved for publication in The FASO Way.

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The Mystical Song of Creation in Starry Night That Inspires Man to Go to the Moon

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

On April 1st, millions of people tuned in to watch as NASA launched its new Artemis II rocket, which carries four astronauts bound for the moon, the biggest “star” in the night sky, for the first time in fifty-three years.

Man has always looked into the night sky and been overcome with a longing; a remembrance; a Desire to reach for the stars: A Heavenly Desire.

Desire, in its truest sense, is from the Latin de sidera — of the stars. True Desire is not of the earth. Earthly desires are more appropriately called appetites, but The True Desire is a deep longing to ascend to the stars and rejoin the Divine.

Even the word heaven, as Jesus uses it in the Gospels, is more accurately translated as sky or cosmos.

In The Chronicals of Narnia, stars are presented as conscious beings. Eustace, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, talks with a star named Ramadu:

“In our world,” said Eustace, “a star is a huge ball of flaming gas.”

Ramandu replies, “Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of.”

Eustace’s description of stars as flaming balls of gas is not false, but it is incomplete. Stars are not mute. They sing to us.

In our world, just as in Narnia, the stars are up there, in the heavens, singing to us, reaching out toward us, calling us with that ancient song that we all long to rejoin; a song composed of light. It is a song they sang, patiently, for eons before their melody entered our mind through our eyes.

This singing of the stars is echoed in Van Gogh’s Starry Night. In it, one can see this primordial oscillation driving the movement of life throughout the famous landscape.

The sky is alive in a great, sweeping melody—spiraling and dancing. The stars aren’t depicted as mere “balls of gas.” They appear as blazing vibrations, broadcasting their voices outward, inviting creation itself to sing. In the foreground, the dark flame of the cypress rises, like a rocket, in its longing to join them. In the background, the mountains rumble with the low, steady gravity of bass. And the village, nestled in the great song’s bosom, breaths in and breaths out with the rhythm of life.

Everything participates. Nothing is inert. The whole canvas lives.

And there, in the upper right corner, is the queen of the night stars, the moon, the heavenly choir director, leading the song with her warm, ethereal voice.

This is the musica universalis—the music of the spheres—made visible. This is nature as revelation. This is where God is encountered; the moving, wild, luminous God of Life.

And then we notice the church.

It sits at the village center, its windows dark, unlit, silent – lifeless. While everything else vibrates with life, the church feels sealed off — closed to the song that pervades the rest of the world.

The contrast speaks for itself, serving as a subtle critique of our religious misunderstandings, hinting at the truth that we find God everywhere — except in the artificial, idolatrous boxes we insist on stuffing Him-Her into.

But we have always preferred gods we can manage, haven’t we?

Those kinds of gods stay indoors and follow rules. We forget the truth that The Mystery is everything except what man thinks it is. The living God cannot be contained, and The Kingdom does not arrive in straight lines or tidy boxes. It is unveiled only in the song of life where rhythm, unpredictability, and movement prevail. God dwells where Life dwells.

“Your religion is not the church you belong to, but the cosmos you live inside of.”

— GK Chesterton

The stars remind us of this. They will not squeeze themselves into our boxes. Instead, they sing. The Logos sings continuously, gifting us with the ever-changing possibility of the present. The Song gifts us time as a canvas upon which we are invited to paint something creative. We are invited to create, in the image of the divine vine, of which we are all branches.

C.S Lewis knew this and Van Gogh saw this truth. The song plays evermore, calling out, to you, calling out your true name, kindling the one True Desire in your heart. A desire born of the stars — de sidera.

This Desire exhorts you to see and to hear; for the only way to create harmony; to create Art, is to tune into the one song with your spiritual eyes and ears so that you hear the entire symphony that is waiting for you. It’s waiting for you to step away from the scales of dogma, and to, instead, start playing your soul’s unique harmony. That is the Desire you feel when you gaze into the night sky.

And the moment you begin to play is moment the whole symphony has been waiting upon.

Godspeed, Artemis II.

May our prayers, and our shared song, buoy you upon a wave that carries you forth into the cosmic symphony.

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PS — If you’d like a print of Starry Night, we have it available in many different formats, framed or unframed, in the FASO Print Gallery. Should you desire Van Gogh’s masterpiece for your own walls, ordering it from us would help support what we are doing.

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Van Gogh’s Starry Night — Prints Available

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The BoldBrush Award winner - March 2026

Binding Spells And Tea by Robin Wessman
16" x 12" Oil

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The BoldBrush Award winner for Abstract - March 2026

Slice of Blue by Barbara Noonan
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We believe that being an artist is, at its core, an act of sovereignty in a world that tries to keep you permanently indentured. That is one reason that the name of my forthcoming book is The Sovereign Artist.

The Sovereign Artist learns to listen inward where truth is found; to listen to her soul.

“Artists are people who are not at all interested in the facts—only in the truth. You get the facts from outside. The truth you get from inside” — Ursula K. Le Guin

You, as a Sovereign Artist, have learned to follow what moves you, even when it does not immediately make sense, and then you engage in the miracle of giving the formless form. For The Sovereign Artist, this process becomes an authentic way of living, not just a way of working.

While we create from our souls, the reality of the market-economy in which we live presses in upon us like the trash compactor scene in Star Wars. And, unless we wish simply to make art for ourselves, we can’t ignore it. We must, therefore, consider how to live authentically in the marketplace. We all know that art is meant to be shared, and, in the modern world, that means offering it for sale. At this point, a serious question, a conundrum really, must be addressed:

How does your artwork find the people it belongs with?

For most artists today, the answer to that question means posting each newly finished piece on social media and waiting to see what happens.

Think about that. Your art enters a soul-less system that was not built with art in mind. Visibility is determined by an algorithm designed to maximize rage and does not care for the depth of what you have made. If it enrages, it engages. Sure, a few people may see it, but most will not. These networks long ago broke their promise to show your posts to all of your followers. None of us these platforms. So why do we continue to post?

The experience of social media in 2026 is inconsistent enough that it becomes frustrating and difficult to know what works and what doesn’t. It’s designed to maximize their profits and keep you coming back.

I think most artists feel this way. There is a sense that, when posting Art, something meaningful was offered and that the response (on social media) does not match the offering.

It feels like a small version of selling out in that our soul knows we are violating the Biblical proverb:

“Do not cast your pearls before swine.”

Swine, in this case, is the algorithmic choices, cheap advertisements, and engagement-bait to which most people on social media are addicted.

But you hold your nose and do it anyway because this is now accepted as part of “the process.” The problem, for Sovereign Artists, is that these tools do not only serve us, but also, over time, we serve our tools. Our tools shape who we become and how we see the world and even, insidiously, how we relate to our own artwork over time. Remember how people started dancing like clowns with their paintings on Instagram?

The difficulty you face is not a lack of ability. That is not why people don’t respond. It is that you have allowed the path between your work and the people who care about it to be placed inside platforms that simply are not oriented toward that kind of connection. There is a malicious middleman between you art your fans. Meta’s mission statement “to build the future of human connection” is simply a lie. If they were honest, their real mission statement would say, “to addict people to watching Meta platforms, so that we may steal their attention, soul and ultimately, life for our profit.” People complain about billionaires while posting on the platforms that make them billionaires.

What artists and art lovers are actually seeking is simple:

Artists want their artwork to be seen by people who want to see it; by people who understand art is sacred; by people who resonate with the ideas in the art itself. And collectors want to see art work presented simply, and in a timely fashion, as the artists they follow release new art. It really is that simple.

A collector told me that what she really wants to see from artists is the following:

“What I would really like to see is an informal news blast of new work…I want it short and sweet.”

And there is an easy way to make that happen.

When you upload a new painting to your website, you are placing it where your work already lives. Your website becomes a growing body of work to which you can point people. From there, your art can be shared directly with the people who have chosen to follow what you do. All you have to do is give your followers a way to sign up for new art alerts on your website and then, send an email to those people as you finish each new artwork. But you must be consistent and you must do it every time. Which is where most artists fail. Consistency is always hard when you have to do it manually.

This consistency problem is what the Artful Alerts feature inside every FASO Artist Website solves.

With FASO, when someone visits your website, they can choose to receive alerts about your new work. That choice matters, because it establishes a direct relationship. It is not based on interruption, persuasion or god-forbid, a tech company’s algorithm. It is based on the art lover’s expressed interest in your art.

Each time you add a new piece to your website, FASO sends a simple email to those subscribers. The artwork appears clearly, with a backlink to your site. It gives your fans a way to provide feedback as a “like” or a comment but – and this is critical – that feedback is for your eyes only.

This is an intimate moment between you, your art, and your prospective collector. This process does not require you to design campaigns or manage lists. And it does not ask you to shift your attention away from the work itself to learn the latest hoops Meta has decided you must jump through as if you were a trained circus animal.

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You make the work, and the people who have asked to see it are informed that it exists.

Over time, this creates continuity and a relationship as people begin to recognize your work in their inbox. They develop a familiarity that cannot be rushed — in contrast to social media where everything is always rushed.

This kind of steady exposure, over time, is what actually turns prospects into collectors because they have had the chance to encounter your work in a way that feels natural and, most importantly, human. They can reply to your emails and ask you questions, and you can reply with answers, sparking a real conversation, in private.

This matters, because the calmness of this process, and the ownership of it allow you, the artist, to be in control and maintain your authenticity; your sovereignty.

A website is a place where your work can exist without competition for attention. It allows your work to be seen in its own context. When that space is connected to a system that carries your work directly to interested viewers, the relationship between you and your audience becomes more intimate and stable.

In the modern world, this is a different way of working. But, for those of us who came of age in the 20th century we recall this older, more human, way of working. It was better. It is better. And, at FASO our goal is to always provide you tools that provide you the benefit of both worlds: the more human way of working combined with modern technology.

Such systems allows you to build an audience over time without being forced to step outside the natural rhythm of your art practice. Such systems allow you to retain your sovereignty.

You should join us in this more human vision for the future. If you are interested, we’ve put together a special spring deal to save you 52% on your first year. Details are in the postscript below.

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PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

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For today’s episode, some of our past guests share the creative “aha” moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to “find a style.” They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts—reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing—as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Episodes mentioned on this episode:

• 62 Aaron Schuerr

• 77 Aaron Westerberg

• 79 William Schneider

• 118 Shuang Li

• 129 Brian Bateman

• 137 Chris Krupinski

• 139 Jeff Legg

• 144 Christine Code

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up.

Aaron Schuerr: 0:07

So that was like a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project.

Chris Krupinski: 0:13

But later, when I found this, was like, this is the hugest aha moment.

Christine Code: 0:19

That was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:25

Now, before I announce our episode for today, there are some updates about the podcast that I need to inform our listeners about. The podcast. Name will change from the BoldBrush show to the FASO podcast. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush Over the years, we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes confusion for most people, so to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO. Now on to the show. Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a boldbrush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, some of our past guests share their creative aha moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to find a style. They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts, reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Aaron Schuerr: 1:52

Well, like I said before, the newsletter is one of the key, key areas. And then I can add to that a couple of occasionally I’ll do just fun projects. And these really started during the pandemic, you know, because everything was all the galleries were closing, and I thought it was going to be like 2008 all over again, you know, where, you know, galleries are closed, shows are closed, all my workshops are canceled. What am I going to do? And so I started off, I just did a video sale and market it first to the news newsletter subscribers. And that did well, because I was just thinking about, like, let’s put together some projects that just get me through, if I can just get through a month, you know, keep us from getting kicked out of our house or whatever. And then I did. I called it a plein air marathon. And so that one, I did a painting a day, or every week day. I took the weekends off, eight by 10, and until I got to 26 paintings. And so I would go out in the morning and do the painting come back, and then I’d write something up, the newsletter and and that was something where it was just the newsletter subscribers had the first chance of buying it. So I saw them all unframed at that point. I mean, I sold them all for $400 each, which is way under retail, but they’re just unframed, you know, on the spot paintings. But each one, you know, I have a little story with it about what happened that day. And then what I could do is, then I put on Instagram and Facebook. Hey, this is the painting I did. It sold. But if you want to have a crack at the next one, you got to sign up for my newsletter. And so that kind of brought people to the newsletter. And again, I like when I started this project that well, one, it’ll get me out painting will be a good discipline. It’ll get me out painting every day, and then two that, if I just sell a handful of them, you know, get through another month, and I ended up selling all of them. And I ended up having to I did some extras, because there were people that were like, Hey, I tried three times or four times to get one of your paintings, and someone was always there first. So I was like, All right, I’ll do, you know, I’ll do another one for you. So that was, like, a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project, one that I’m just about to do, that I’ve done the last three years. I call it the 12 paintings of Christmas. And it’s six by eight, six by eight or eight by eight paintings. I’ll start December 1, go through December 12. And they’re so they’re little ones, and I frame them because I figure it’s Christmas, so then it’d be nice for people out frame there. I. Nicely framed, but they’re, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re at a price that’s lower than than my normal retail so I’m really careful, though, about like with projects like that, where something is less than, you know, it’s less than a gallery price, that it is a specific project, you know, like the this is, I did the plein air marathon. I ended up only doing it once, and keep meaning to do it again. But this is for this specific project, so it’s different than my other work. I think that’s important, because, one, you don’t want to start undervaluing your work by, you know, seeming like you’re desperate and and then also to have the good relationships with the galleries, because if a gallery finds out like, Wait, you’re selling stuff out of your studio for half the price. No, I’m doing, you know, I’m doing a project that’s very different. I don’t I’m not putting six by eight paintings in galleries, and it’s the set project. So for me, I the nice surprise with those projects is that they were good from a marketing standpoint, but they’re also really good from an artistic standpoint, like the 12 paintings the Christmas helps me plan what studio paintings I want to do in the next year, because I get, you know, I try them out in this small format, and there’s a few of them that I’m like, ooh, that’s an idea I want to go back to. So it’s a nice transition sometimes, between plein air and planning studio paintings. So it helps me out that way. But yeah, finding fun projects like that and making them, I think making them exclusive for like, Hey, this is going out to the you’re you’re a newsletter subscriber. That means you, you’ve chosen to follow what I’m doing, so I want to reward that with, you know, a project like this,

Aaron Westerberg: 7:09

Yeah, no, it was slow. It was over a few years, for sure, because I didn’t know what I was doing, you know, I didn’t know what I was doing. I was just, I just wanted to be a fine artist. I wanted to be a gallery artist, you know. And so I was like, What do I have to do to, you know, to do this? And I just wanted everything to culminate to where it would help facilitate that, you know. So working at borders didn’t really facilitate that, you know, too much, you know. So as soon as I cut that out, I did, but, but, yeah, you know, you know, I think some of when you teach, like, you know, a lot of times I would get, you know, because my drawings were, they were, they’re pretty decent drawings when I was teaching, because I would teach life drawing, and a lot of times I would get people to take my class, and they would see me, and, you know, I was like, you know, 20 something years old, and like, Oh, you’re just a kid, you know, like, I thought you’d be like, an old man or something. And, and I’m like, I think, but some of the best teachers are the ones that are, you know, just kind of learning. And, you know, can do the things, but everything is kind of new and fresh to them. They’re not like, crusted over and, you know, they can actually express the ideas that maybe someone will just be like you just got to go through a million drawings to figure it out. So, you know, draw teaching. I think almost anyone can do that, you know, early on, you know, I think that’s a really good way to start and, you know, it, it doubles down on what you know. You’re teaching somebody you know what you know, and so you have to vocalize it and basically explain it to somebody who has no clue. And it’s also good, I have some good teaching stories, because I’ve taught for a long time, and I’ve taught some, I mean, I taught a guy, I’m positive he was in the witness look relocation program. I mean, I’m positive, you know, this guy was, like, total sopranos guy, and he had a pinky ring that was, like as big as my thumb on his pinky, and you could just smash me in any time, if you want to. He was humongous. But, yeah, I just so teaching is it’s interesting, it’s fun. But you learn more. You get better at your craft by teaching. So I think that is, is a great way to supplement your income. And then, like, the thing I want to say with social media is, you know, it’s, it’s easy to get bogged down in it and just kind of be negative towards it, but it’s like a great opportunity for artists right now. I know tons of artists, and I’m sure most of the viewers do also that just sell, you know, directly or through their Instagram or whatever. They don’t have a gallery, you know, and I. And it’s, it’s also, you know, I think we all have a degree of creativity, and you just have to kind of put it into the into your posts, you know, you, you know, like a lot of people, do the same things over and over, like varnishing the paintings or whatever. I mean, I do that, but, you know, but you just be creative with it, you know, when I when I first got that, like, Aha moment when I and I didn’t get it, the aha moment until after it happened. But what I did is, for that studio sale, I laid out a whole bunch of paintings on my studio floor, and I took a picture of it, and I’m like, I’m gonna have a studio sale, and this, all these are going to be here, and frames and all kinds of stuff. And then people started emailing me that picture back and circling the paintings, like, how much is this one? How much? Like a lot of people, and I’m like, Oh, wow, this is really. This really works, you know, just just kind of organic. I’m not trying to sell individual painting. I’m just kind of showing them what I’m doing, and it worked great. Like I said, I sold almost everything before the actual opening of the studio, sale the physical opening. So I think it’s just a matter of putting your creativity into the marketing side of your paintings, and it can be anything, you know, it can be anything. There’s tons of ways to do it, you know, stuff that’s not been done yet, stuff that’s been done with your own little twist on it. It can be anything, but it’s, you know, when you sell your stuff yourself, you don’t have to give a percentage to the gallery. You know, it’s, it’s very nice. It’s very nice. And you know that, like a lot of galleries, don’t share information, like, who bought your painting, so, so, you know, you get, you develop a relationship with that person. And a lot of times those relationships last years, right? They continue to purchase from you. So you know, it’s, it’s good. And you I mean, I, like no one who has my paintings, you know, I enjoy that a lot. And they send you a picture of it on their wall or whatever. It’s so gratifying, you know, so, so, yeah, that is, that’s a really good side of kind of social media and being able to market yourself and be, you know, be a living artist today.

William Schneider: 12:27

Don’t try to find your own voice. And I’d say that because that is one of the pieces of advice that was passed on to me by Bill parks, and he was 100% right. I think that if you just study, become curious about the world, curious about everything. You will gravitate towards certain themes, certain ideas, certain ways of expressing things, style or voice. I think is nothing more than people’s habitual mistakes. In other words, if somebody Okay, Modigliani making these elongate or El Greco making these elongated figures, maybe he had an issue with proportion, but it became a style, you know, and because in art we you cannot paint what we see. What we see is light, light rays hitting the object, bouncing off the object, going into our retina, being projected upside down on nerve endings and our eyeballs in the back of them and going into the brain and being interpreted as as whatever. But in that process, every step of it, you’re losing information, and so the information is filtered through our own verbal constructs and prejudices. I mean, human beings, including artists, talk to themselves incessantly without we never shut up, you know. And so the internal dialog, we can either try to harness it and use it, or we can fall victim to it. And what I mean by that is, you know, a lot of my students, you know, will express their internal dialog. They’ll make it external. And it’s kind of, oh, I started too late. I’ll never be any good. I just don’t get this temperature business. I don’t understand this. Maybe I should take up, go off. I was better at golf, but not really that good. I was like, a 19 handicap, but, and they’re doing saying all of these things, a useful dialog would be, okay, I don’t like this. What don’t I like? Is it too light? Is it too dark? Is it too warm? Is. It too cool, is it too sharp? Is it too soft? Is it too green, or is it too gray? You know, if you ask yourself sort of these paired questions, then you can come up with useful answers. And to circle back to style, Bill parks told me, do not try to find your own style. And then in my own research, I ran across a little, I don’t remember, the excerpt from a letter or somebody recording advice you received from Sargent. John Singer, Sargent about, you know, I want to become a great portrait artist. And Sargent told him, No, don’t try to become a great portrait artist, try to become a great artist, and then you can do portraits. And that’s what Sargent Did you know obvious by his body of work throughout time. And you know, so if you just try to be a great artist, you try to be the best that you can be at the things that interest you, eventually your style will will find you. Yeah, I don’t think I have a style particularly, but then I’ve had people say, oh, you know, I could I recognized your painting right off the bat, really, you know? But it’s, I’m just trying to be honest to the scene that’s in front of me as filtered through my own internal movie, you know, generally, like the anecdote I told you about the persecuted woman. If my best paintings are paintings where it’s not model Sitting in Chair. It’s Romeo sitting at at her mirror, pining from her lost look. It’s, it’s like a movie. And so then I started, start illustrating that movie. It’s that internal dialog, and that’s what I circle back to, that people you’re going to talk to yourself anyway might as well say something that’s useful.

Chris Krupinski: 17:01

Yeah, I actually think I didn’t know what or how powerful the value, the value pattern, or the value scale, should be in the painting for quite a long time. So I always wondered why my painting doesn’t really look right or look good. I also blame you know my color wasn’t right or the detail. I didn’t really know this how to paint this little thing, etc. But later, when I found this like this is the hugest aha moment, you would say, oh, that’s because my value is wrong. Sometimes the process the word saying the value does all the work, but the color gets all the credit. We all know that right? How, how I actually find out and helped myself to improve on the awareness of values is you could simply turn your painting into black white, then instantly you will know, and you compare to the pros or the paintings you admire, you do the same thing, you know, take a photo of that painting. Compare these two, black and white, instantly you will know, oh, that’s why the other painting is so good or so powerful. You know, it’s because the value is correct. Even like the piece as Impressionism. Piece colors everywhere. You couldn’t really realize it. But when you turn it into the black, white. You will see it

Laura Arango Baier: 18:43

at FASO. We inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s boldbrushshow.com. The FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career, thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist’s website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seeing. The right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Brian Bateman: 20:14

I will go back and review perspective. I will go back and review my basic drawing skills. Teaching helps me to go back to those basic drawing skills. So I would recommend, you know, I’d recommend teaching too, because for those of you who have taught, that really, really helps you get back to core basics. Because you’re you’re trying to teach that again to your students, and in teaching that to your students, you’re re teaching that to yourself. And then you’re also learning to communicate, which sometimes my wife says, I have a problem doing. So if you learn to communicate better and get it across to do the student, and you have that aha moment, or they have that aha moment. It makes you feel good you’ve gotten, you’ve got across to them, and that that’s very cool. But back to the core. That helps with the core, at least for me to revisit that

Chris Krupinski: 21:21

I paint every single day. Back when I decided it was going to be important to me to to be a professional artist, I made a commitment to myself, and this is when I still had kids at home, I made a commitment to myself that I would paint at the minimum of two hours a day, no matter what. So Christmas Eve would find me wrapping gifts and then pulling my paints out for two hours. Because I I am 100% sure that the only way you are going to get better is to put the time in. And I so no, aha. Moment happens. It’s like watching your kids grow. Never once did I ever say aha, they grew two inches, because you don’t see that unless you look back, and it just grows slowly and it progresses to where you’re going. And I so no, but when I do look back, I do see tremendous changes, you know, and growth and and whatever. And I just attribute that to time being put in. And so the more time you put in, you it will slowly, it will slowly change and hopefully go to the better.

Jeff Legg: 22:57

Well, let’s see. I wrote down some things that I think might help. Yeah, I guess probably the biggest thing was that, realizing that you can’t really copy color. I mean, color is very relative. It looks, you know, one color looks different next to another color next to another color, and the color is so relative, you could paint anything in any color, and it would as long as the value relationships were were good and correct, that the color doesn’t matter. So I don’t get real hung up on trying to reproduce an exact color. In fact, I will push colors where I want them to be. I mean, after all, we’re dealing with paint, and you can only do so much with paint. Sometimes you have to exaggerate things just to get across the emphasis of a certain color that you want to focus on. So, you know, I put a lot more, a lot more practice into value, you know, relationships, because that’s really the most important thing. So that was a, that was a pretty big thing to realize I didn’t have to be, you know, I’m not a I’m not a camera, you know, I’m not even trying to be a camera. I’m trying to, you know, paint something that looks I want to paint whatever I’m painting to be more than what it is, you know, it’s be more. Even what a camera would capture. So that means taking some liberties, which is a good was a really good segue to one thing that’s I’ve done for about the past 15 years or so is I paint quite often. A lot of it’s from imagination, or a combination of, you know what I’m looking at and my imagination. So I find a lot of freedom in doing work from memory, imagination. And I really, really recommend highly that people work from memory. Is you know more than they do you know. Working from your memory or your imagination, that’s sort of the same thing you are forced to you’re you’re going to force yourself to find out what you really know. Because what you really know is you know should be able to come out as a memory or as your imagination. And the more you practice and exercise your imagination, I think the better artists will be we’re, you know, as a child, our imaginations are much more pliable, and I think we use it more often. And as we get older, we sort of, you know, lose our childlike ability in that way. So I try to practice that. I’ve done a lot of paintings. Still I totally from made up, and you would never know. It shouldn’t matter. I mean, really, in some ways, those paintings are maybe more truthful than trying to, you know, exactly copy what I’m looking at, because they’re, they’re from me, you know, they’re not locked into just, you know, what I’m looking at. You’re kind of an expression. Then the another thing, as far as technique, that was a discovery that has helped me a lot is I’m in love with surface texture. I a painting isn’t a painting unless it has beautiful surface texture, you know. So in my that’s just my opinion, but I like to build up textures and patina and glazes and using regular oil paint, oil paint, even if you add mediums that you know to help speed the drying, they still it takes a day or several days to really be thoroughly dry, if not months, and you certainly can’t really glaze a painting that’s not thoroughly dry. So I discovered alkaline oils, which was a fast drawing oil paint. And depending on the humidity level and and the thickness of the paint, everything, it’ll dry, you know, anywhere from it’ll be pretty darn dry in two or three hours or or overnight for sure, three or four days it’s it’s completely cured out. So that has helped me speed up my process a lot. Then the cool thing about alkids too, is they they all dry at the same speed. They can be mixed into regular oils. You can start a painting with alkyd and end it with regular oils. Or you can do the whole thing with alkid. It’s just a beautiful for me. It’s a beautiful balance, because I can, I would say I would speed up my process by weeks by using alkids, at least in the beginning stages. If not, you know, the entire painting. These paintings are all out, good. Uh, and it is, it’s, don’t misunderstand, it is an oil paint. It’s just a fast drying oil paint. It’s not acrylic. Acrylic dries too fast for me, and it doesn’t have the same feel as oil paint. So anyway, yeah, the using alkaline oils is, I know it’s unconventional. There’s not a lot of artists that really do that, but that’s been a big thing for me. I can, you know, I can do a painting, you know, average size, still life, you. Do all the glazing, everything I want to do to make it that surface quality, the texture and everything. Let that dry, say, a week, and then it’s dry enough to varnish, you know, get it framed and send it, send it off to a gallery. Whereas, if I were using regular oils, I might have, you know, that might be more like a three month process, if not longer, I would say, like I said, I’ve always take a commission work, and commissions kind of drag you down, especially if the client is really prescriptive about what they want. And of course, now that I’m showing in all of these galleries and selling, you know, the work that does come from my heart, I can be a little bit more picky and choosy on the Commission’s I accept. But recently I just commissions just are pressure, no matter what. By recently devised a system that helps alleviate some of that pressure. So let’s say a client asked me for you know, they say, Oh, I love your sunsets with the peachy tones, but I need a 40 by 40. I will say, Okay, I’m going to paint you two or 340 by 40s with the peachy tones for you to choose from. And that has been really great for all of us. It takes the pressure off me to get it right in that one shot. It takes the pressure off the client to be stuck with one, the one and only painting you do for them. It takes, you know, they have choices now. I mean, what’s better than that? And also, whatever gallery this commission is through, I’m getting them all three paintings, and the client picks one, and the gallery has more stock it can hang the other two on the wall and sell them. So it’s a win, win for everybody. And you know what, once in a while, the client will say, Well, you know what, I have room for two. So they actually take two. So the you know, that’s just a bonus. So that’s how I’ve been, how I’ve been dealing with commissions lately. And it’s it’s been working out really well. It really takes the pressure off, off everybody. Um, because the more parameters a client puts around a painting, the less free I am able to make those choices. And sometimes it just ends up in a jumbled mess because their vision doesn’t match my vision, and I can’t take the painting to where, you know, I want to put out my best work. So if I offer three options that way, I can make my three best paintings with the peachy sunset colors and, and they have the choice. And, oh, and yes. So if you are showing in a gallery, just a piece of advice, and you get a random email and somebody asked for a commission. Always ask that collector if they found your work in in a gallery, or did they just find you through a random internet search? How they found you? Because if they saw your work in the gallery, first, you should run that commission through the gallery, it’s just good business. It establishes trust with your gallery, and it just builds that good business relationship with your gallery, so you should always honor that. But yeah, anyways, that’s that was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions. Now, you know, it takes a little bit longer, but the galleries are always wanting work, so it kind of kills two birds with one stone, and it’s that it’s been great that way.

Kim Lordier: 33:29

So I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realized that it’s really truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. You know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like knock on wood. You know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happened to my beautiful space that I love to be in. I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know, and I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be. Able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody. Or, you know, that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here. But it’s just that I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand, and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends, and there was just nothing greater than that for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:34

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

Why Museums Fail When They Forget the Muses

I asked ChatGPT why people build museums, and it said two things — for the preservation of history and culture and for inspiration through exposure to new ideas. Both things are true, of course, but there is much, much more.

The word “museum” comes from the Greek “Μουσεῖον” (Mouseion), which referred to a seat or “temple of the Muses.” A museum is a place dedicated to one’s encounter with the Muses — the nine daughters of Zeus who bestowed knowledge and creativity on mortals.

The whole point of a museum is to reveal how someone encountered the Muses. When we walk into a museum and don’t see that encounter, it’s not a museum. In a true museum, the dance of the Muses is happening before your eyes. You know it, because you get inspired.

The true purpose of a museum is not to preserve but to show why something is worth preserving. It makes no sense to conserve something that is not worth conserving. If we really want to preserve something of value for future generations, we cannot start with preserving. We must start from the beginning — from encountering the Muses.

When we see a poet touched by a Muse, we know it. This is how Homer started the Odyssey:

“Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns...”

The reason the Odyssey is preserved until now is not because it was put in a museum or shrine but because we can read the dance of Terpsichore off it. Homer became a conduit of Calliope’s song. We can see the dance of the Muses happening right now.

When we read The Lord of the Rings, we can feel the dance of the Muses happening before our eyes. It springs from the story itself. You deeply feel the fire of that dance — it sets you on fire.

A true museum is a deep paradox — it’s built to preserve but it cannot preserve by focusing on preserving. No value can be preserved and passed down to future generations unless they see the dance of the Muses with their own eyes. They must see the fire, not just the ashes.

As the Austrian composer Gustav Mahler said,

“Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire.”

True tradition burns. If it doesn’t burn, it’s dead. All attempts at preserving it will fail. Our children are not interested in ashes; they want to see the fire. They want to see the dance of the Muses as they leaf through the pages of our “Odyssey.”

They want to see it anew. They want to re-experience the initial encounter with the Muses.

“Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?” — Isaiah 43:18-19

The past is only precious if its fire is alive in the present — not in the past. Tradition is only alive when it reveals the divine encounter happening in the moment.

As Dante exclaimed,

O Muses, O high genius, now assist me!
O memory that inscribed what I saw,
Here will your nobility appear!
(Inferno, Canto II)

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For today’s episode we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials (acrylic vs. oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture paste) and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile, artifact-like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative, experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction, and rescue, and how embracing “happy accidents” and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration, and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career—balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups, and building relationships that lead to gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community, and actively create their own opportunities, and also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram.

Nancy’s FASO site:
nancycrandallphillips.com

Nancy’s Social Media:
instagram.com/nancycrandallphillips

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Transcript:

Nancy Phillips: 0:00

You develop a very thick skin, yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen, you know. I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting. And you know you, you have to let go of your expectations and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening, that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:34

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials, acrylic versus oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture, paste and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile artifact like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction and rescue and how embracing happy accidents and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career, balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups and building relationships that lead to Gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community and actively create their own opportunities. And also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram. For those of you who are watching the video version of the episode. We wanted to let you know the video quality of this episode on our end is not the best for that. We apologize, though this does not affect the quality of the conversation. Welcome Nancy to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Nancy Phillips: 2:34

Thank you. I’m well. Thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Of course, yeah, I’m so excited to have you, because you are actually our second abstract artist to have on the show. And I’m very much enjoying talking to abstract artists, because there are so many aspects of painting in realism that benefits so so so much from the abstract thought and the experimental side. That happens much more frequently with abstract than with realism. So I’m excited to pick your brain, and I love also your pieces. They’re so, so beautiful. I love especially all your blue pieces with the gold. You’re welcome. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Nancy Phillips: 3:23

Well, I’m Nancy Crandall Phillips and I do currently, I do abstract mixed media work. I do a lot of little tiny pieces, and I do very large pieces, and I’ve been doing that for working in that way for about 10 years or so, using the same materials over the last 10 years, but it’s been a long evolution since I got started. I started out doing ceramics. When I was in high school, did a lot of ceramics. In high school, went to college, thought I was going to do pottery, and switched to fiber and fabric design, where I did a lot of mixed media, or I did a lot of soft sculpture work and weaving and print making and that type of thing. Then got out of college, worked in a bank for a little while, which I’ll circle back to, but then ended up working in the interior design industry for about 10 years, but always taking night classes in more ceramics, printmaking, drawing, that kind of thing. Then finally, after about 10 years, decided I really needed to make a change and go back to graduate school. And if I was going to go to graduate school, I was going to do something I loved. So I ended up. Uh, going to art school and still taking night classes at a really great art school, and doing my master’s degree at Cal State Northridge, which was much less expensive than a professional art school, but over that amount of time, got a lot of instruction in the materials that you use. I mean that what intrigued me all along was, well, when I first, let me backtrack a little bit, when I was in college, there was a presentation put on, incidentally, by a sales rep from Grumbacher who explained a lot about the chemistry of paints, and acrylic paints versus oil paints, and you know the differences in how they’re made and and talking about how the chemistry of it all. And you know what you can combine, what you can’t combine? You know, you can put oil on top of acrylic, but not acrylic on top of oil, and acrylic is essentially plastic, and that was a revelation to me. So anyway, fast forward through my early 20s, and I finished graduate school, married my husband, who’s a realist oil painter, and and started layering these things together. And eventually I I started working consistently on canvas and but I was always my let me backtrack a little bit one of my most instructive classes I took when I was beginning in college, taking art classes was about composition, and it was given by an advertising a former advertising executive guy and he and so the whole class was about composition and and how what your eye does with different elements in a comp, in a composition, and talking about how if you have a piece that touches the edge, your eye will immediately go there first. But even more exciting that then that is something that almost touches the edge, and the tension that that, that there’s tension there that you that will grab your attention anyway. So through that, I I have always paid a lot of attention to the edges of things, and I loved Canvas, you know, painting on stretched canvas, but the edge of the stretch canvas bugged me because it was so boring, you know, just Canvas wrapped over stretcher bars. So I started tearing my canvas. I would actually buy painters Canvas wash it in the washing machine because and I would rip it and then wash it in the washing machine so that they had the frayed edges, and so that it wasn’t completely flat. And then I would stretch it on a board and staple it with staple gun, so that it was stretched but uneven along the edges, almost like a carcass, like a skin of a of an animal, you know? And because, in the end, I was interested in my pieces looking like old leather and sort of like artifacts. So I worked that way for quite a while. And so I would work, I would take a piece of canvas, stretch it when it was wet, then it would dry and shrink back. Then I would paint on it and layer. I started collecting papers. I made paper for a while myself too, a little bit. And so I have, I have flat files full of a collection of rice papers and tissue papers. And every time I went to art supply stores, I was buying, you know, exotic papers of all kinds, and layering those on top of the canvas, because and sometimes painting them and layering them down. And when you when you layer them with acrylic medium. The paper itself often disappears, depending on what kind of paper it is and that, and then layering paint on top of that, especially watered down paint, so that it sort of decomposes and settles in all those little crevices. Is, and you can see the little you know, particles of pigment in there is always works for me. So I work like that for a long time. And then would would have, when the paintings were done, I would take them off the the plywood and stretch them over a stretched canvas, so that the edges overhang the stretched canvas, so that they would hang on the wall like they were floating, like a floating piece of canvas or animal skin or whatever, which was fun and lovely but impractical in the real world. And so, you know, you’re always worrying about the edges, and especially if there were paper overhanging the edges, which was which really floated my boat, those get wrecked pretty easily. So finally, I decided this is ridiculous. I need to do something that’s a little more practical in the real world, and that galleries wouldn’t be intimidated by handling, and that wouldn’t get damaged in shipping. So I started buying cradle panels and and then I discovered texture paste, which is a lot like clay. And so I started working the way I work now, which is smearing texture paste all over a cradle panel, then taking canvas and or paper, and then mushing that down on top of the wet texture paste so that it sort of oozes out the sides like clay. And that gives you all kinds of opportunities to embed all kinds of other stuff in there too. So, so that’s the way I’ve been working for the last 20 years or so, and slowly accumulating more stuff to embed in there. And somewhere along the way there, my husband started making the cradle panels and started doing a lot of framing himself. So we were making a lot of frames, and I was doing the gold leafing on the frames, which found its way into my work, because gold leaf is so fun, so and then other things started, you know, sticks. And we, we eventually, about 20 years ago, we moved from LA out to Northern California, out in the country, where we have a lot of Manzanita up here. And so there’s a lot of sticks around that are very intriguing, and so I started attaching those on and, you know, using wire and, you know, pieces of metal and just stuff that is hanging around. Then, about eight years ago or so, we were both in a art auction event up here at the Crocker Museum, and where everyone had big pieces they were auctioning off, but also little tiny pieces that they were donating for an a smaller live auction. And I saw a little piece there with gold leaf in it and other stuff that was just lovely. And met the artist, who was an encaustic artist, and she said, Oh, you know. I said, Oh, tell me, you know, you can embed gold leaf and encaustic. And she goes, Oh, yeah, you should really check this out. So I joined her encaustic group and went over to her studio a number of times. And so she’s my friend now. And so I started layering encaustic on top and and embedding things in that, and working with the the three dimensionality of wax on top of other papers and embedded stuff. And really, really having a lot of fun exploring wax when it’s translucent and when it’s opaque and and how incredibly frustrating it is to try to make it do what you want to do, and working out Ways to work with it in spite of its inability to let you control it. So anyway, that’s sort of brings you to how I’m working now,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:55

yes, and it’s fascinating, because. It feels like, you know, it’s a very experimental, like I mentioned earlier, iterative process where you come across one medium and you’re like, Huh, I’m going to try that out. And then you come across another medium and you blend them, and then it continues to kind of like become a bit of like a step ladder situation, or,

Unknown: 15:20

like, exactly that

Laura Arango Baier: 15:23

adding stuff. And I really, really love how the I feel, like, the very common sort of thread that I’ve noticed is you mentioned, like, how you wanted your canvas with, like, old leather. And of course, you were in the fiber arts, which, you know, natural materials, type of thing, and then jumping on over into like encaustic and like paper, and how both of those materials are very translucent, and playing with the, you know, Hide and Seek sort of aspects of like layering, which I really love, too. It makes me very curious about encaustic too, because it’s such an ancient technique as well. It’s something that’s been used throughout humanity for such a long time. Such a long time. Yes, I love love that so much. But yeah, and what you mentioned about encaustic being like such a difficult medium to use, I think the last time we spoke, I said that kind of sounds like watercolor. So it, from how you’ve described it, too, it sounds like it’s harder in that aspect as well.

Unknown: 16:27

It is. There’s less

Nancy Phillips: 16:30

in some in some ways it is because I’m, I’m into all the layering aspects of stuff, but there’s very few things you can layer on top of encaustic. So it’s, it’s limiting in that way. And, I mean, you can’t really put oil paint on top of encaustic. You certainly can’t put acrylic. It won’t, won’t stick. And part of working with encaustic is, I mean, you’re, you’re, when you’re, you’re painting with melted wax, and then you take a heat gun and have to seal it to the layer underneath, or it will pop off. So you’re working flat with melted wax, with a heat gun, and a heat gun, you know, pushes air out, so it’s, it makes it all move, which is annoying, unless it moves in a way you appreciate. So you learn to work with that too. But anyway, it’s very I find it, I don’t know, evocative and satisfying and infuriating all at the same time.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:45

That’s what’s that’s what’s fun about it, right? It’s, I think it wouldn’t be quite as fun if it wasn’t so challenging. You know? Yeah, I think there’s a very healthy amount of resilience, of course, that one has to, have to work with challenging mediums, but if you really enjoy it and you enjoy the challenge, then it’s totally worth it. And it’s funny, because I was just discussing that with with a friend, where if it’s too hard, you won’t want to do it, yeah, and if it’s too easy, you don’t want to do it. You need to have that like level of discomfort that makes it feel like achievable, so that it feels satisfying, and then you want to do it again. Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna also mention how the way you’re describing the process, too. I’m curious to know, what is your favorite part of the process that you’ve developed over time? I Huh?

Nancy Phillips: 18:45

Well, I I love starting out because all things seem possible. And usually I start out with a plan that that works for about, you know, an hour and a half and then, and then, something doesn’t go according to plan, but in a in a good way. So I find that I I, I make a lot of adjustments along the way, and feel free to change my mind, which you have to if you’re going to do this kind of thing. But starting out is a lot of fun, and usually I get to a point about a third of the way, and I work, let me backtrack a little bit. I work in in layers of things that that at the beginning, at least have to dry for periods of time. So I’ll work for a couple hours on a piece, and then have to go away and come back the next day and do some more. So it’s so it takes me a week or two at least of consistent work to get to a point where. I feel like I’m finished on a piece, and sometimes even longer. So they’re waiting periods when, when things are drying and changing. And, you know, acrylic paint, I I start out with with acrylics which change color as they dry, and I’m a lot of water down acrylics that that move around as they dry and pool in different places in different colors. Work. You know, there’s a big difference between, you know, phthalo blue and ultramarine blue in what they do to each other, what they do to the layers underneath, how they dry, how they pool, all that kind of stuff. So so usually things go along pretty well for the first couple days, and then they all fall apart and and then I go through a period of trying to figure out how I’m going to rescue this stupid thing that’s driving me crazy. And I assume I’m not supposed to swear on these things.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:08

Oh, you can, it’s all good if. Anyway, I totally agree.

Nancy Phillips: 21:15

So anyway, usually there’s sort of a long period in the middle there where I’m trying to rescue it and, and that’s, it’s always gratifying when something happens where you think, oh, you know, this is great. It might actually survive after all. So that’s always a fun part. And usually I’m, I’m doing more experimenting, in the end, with little, you know, tweaking of the converts of the composition. You know, the way, if you’re, you know, if you’re an oil painter, you’re really hitting those highlights that really sort of pull it all together. You do that, and I do that in abstract work as well. And, you know, trying to decide at the end, you know, well, am I going to do wax on this part. Am I going to try to, you know, am I going to throw some gold leaf in there, or some other metallic something? Or lately, or for the last several years, I discovered pigment sticks that you can use on top of encaustic, but you have to care, be careful then, about what you do on top of the pigment sticks. But that’s a whole new thing, of how you can manipulate the pigment sticks. You can, you know, draw with them. You can then go back with paint thinner and mush them around with your fingers, or whatever other things you want to do anyway, kind of those finishing touches are, are gratifying too. So there’s, there’s, there are particularly fun spots along the way with agonizing frustration in between. But that, you know, makes it all worthwhile in the end, usually,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:23

yes, oh man, I love that. That is, it’s very poetic, because it’s always so exciting at the beginning, you know, it’s like a, I think if I see it in a graph, you know, it’s like the excitement. And then it drops like a lot, and then it goes back up towards the end to a very satisfying, hopefully satisfying finish. But I think it’s also really interesting, because there’s this sort of like in the creative process. Along the way, there’s also a destructive process, you know, there’s like this back and forth between you, you know, you move three steps forward, two steps back, sometimes or five steps forward, one step back, and it’s, it’s the same with oil painting too. There’s a lot of push and pull, push and pull, but it’s really cool to see it in a more, I guess, gosh, a more experimental way too, because it is through that experimentation that you discover so much, right? It is you discover, oh, well, like how you said you can’t really use the pigment sticks. Or, like, if you do use a pigment sticks, you can’t really do something on top of them without destroying them. So it’s, it feels much more scientific. Kind of like how you said that, you know, the chemistry side of like, working with materials was what interested you. And I love to like that. Do you ever find that you might start a piece and then you you just, there’s like, no way to salvage it? Have you noticed that happening? Or do you are you able to save like, a good amount of them?

Nancy Phillips: 24:53

Yes, I have a stack of them over to the side that I’m trying to keep out of the. Out of the view of the camera, yes, but often I find that if I if, if things are really going badly, then I don’t care anymore, and I can be really reckless with it, and that’s when better things happen. And I’ve done a number of commission pieces where I’ll I, if I do, if I get a commission for a piece, I try to do two or three, because I find that if I’m if I just do one, it’s it’s too precious. I’m too tentative with it. And if I do two or three, then I can be much more casual and reckless. And the one that I initially started out with, that I think is really going to be successful, is not nearly as successful as one of the others that I was less, you know, I was more, you know, carefree about So,

Laura Arango Baier: 26:05

yes, that is so important, because there’s so much you know, when we put a canvas right, we’re right. We have a canvas ready. It is so easy to put so much pressure on ourselves for it to be the best thing we’ve ever done in our entire lives. It’s like, this is going to be the masterpiece. This is the one. But it is awesome to have that idea of like, okay, I know this piece is important. It’s commissioned. I’m going to make three so I know I have space to, you know, let myself play and not be so overcome with, like, the worry and fear of, oh my gosh, what if this doesn’t turn out and I have to start over? It’s good to have that wiggle room of, like, Okay, I’m going to play around a little bit and not put so much pressure on myself, because I mentioned this earlier. But there’s something, and there’s something really limiting imperfectionism, right? Like it’s such a box that we put ourselves in, you know? And of course, the way that you work, it’s hard to stay in the imaginary box of perfectionism, which I think is so healthy, even if it is frustrating.

Unknown: 27:20

Yes, definitely. So I

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

also wanted to ask you, if you’ve had since you’ve, you know, you’ve had this very long time to be able to experiment and play and learn and repeat the process over and over. Have you had any recent or big aha moments in your work that have really, you know, changed your perspective in your work, or have helped you move forward as an artist.

Nancy Phillips: 27:58

I think it’s a little bit that way, when I start working with incorporating something new, starting to work within caustic was a little bit like that. It changed. It definitely sort of took me on a little off ramp to a little bit different esthetic in the work that I do. And then pigment sticks have sort of expanded that a little bit too. But there hasn’t been anything dramatic. There was a period I after. There was a period after I got out of graduate school where I did pretty consistent work for about, I don’t know, eight years or so, and then got frustrated. It was just going nowhere. So I took, I took a couple years off, and didn’t paint at all for about a year or so. And we were living in an old house at that point, and we were restoring this old house, which you use a lot of art materials when you’re I mean, when you’re working with wood, you work with a lot of the same stuff you work with when you’re an oil painter. And so when we find when we finished that and I went back to painting, somehow that sort of reinvigorated the work that I did and and I think probably at that point I I started working a lot more with acrylic than oil paint, because you can you. You can cover it up and start all over again. Easier you can you can abandon that and start again. Easier with acrylic than you can with oil paint. But anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:19

BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever. It’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special ink FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, you know, I You mentioned something there that I like, because I relate to it. I also took time off in painting. And I think exploring other things can really reinvigorate painting or just like creating, because it kind of puts you, it takes you outside of, like, maybe, like, the same sort of bubble that you’ve been in with painting, and it allows you to gain a new perspective. For some people, it might be reading books. I know reading really can change you, especially when it’s fiction instead of nonfiction. It can really give you some crazy ideas. But home renovation, that’s, you know, in in many senses, it’s crafting, yeah, so it’s, it’s very much like, adjacent to painting, like you said, so much of the same things are used. And it also gives you, I don’t know, there’s something weird about, like, learning a 3d construction of some sort, yes, yes. Suddenly go like, Oh my gosh. I just realized this thing about painting that I hadn’t noticed, which is very funny, because it’s a 3d thing that gets transferred into a 2d level, and it’s like, whoa. It can be really mind blowing. But having that time away, I think, is so important for some people, especially how you mentioned if you get frustrated, and it’s if it’s just not going anywhere and it just feels very dry and you’re not excited for it anymore, it’s very good to step away. Yeah, well, since we’re on that topic, actually, I wanted to ask you, when you stopped painting for those years, because for me, I had a bit of a crisis. Did you happen to go through a bit of a crisis too, in terms of your artistic identity, so to speak.

Nancy Phillips: 33:50

I not real, not, not really. I mean, it’s, it’s always been sort of up and down. It wasn’t dramatic.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:05

That’s good, yeah, because I think it’s also, it can be so defeating too. When you take time off, yeah, it makes you feel like, gosh, I’m a failure. Or, why isn’t this working anymore? Is this even what it should be doing? You know, especially

Nancy Phillips: 34:21

if you’re if you take time off when you’re not liking what you’re doing, yeah, when you’re consistently unhappy with your output, it’s, it’s a little depressing. Yes, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:35

it can be very tough. But I think yourself like, Okay, I’m just stepping away for a short period of time, right? I’m just gonna take some time off. I think that that also really helps with not having so much pressure about like, oh my gosh, I’m just stop. I quit, I give up, because that’s very different. But that also makes me wonder, so you mentioned also that your creative process when you’re creating a piece. 90s, you can find yourself in points of frustration. How do you handle or like, what keeps you going, experimenting on?

Nancy Phillips: 35:15

Can you repeat that? I you, yeah. I you,

Unknown: 35:18

so did. I blanked out for just a second.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:22

Okay, yeah, no, I can repeat that. So when, when you’re working on a piece that’s really challenging for you, or like, when you reach a point when you’re creating a piece that gets challenging, what keeps you going, even when it gets really tough,

Nancy Phillips: 35:40

I walk away from it for a couple days, and usually leave it somewhere where I can see it sort of out of the corner of my eye. And fortunately, we have, we live in a house with a big family room next to the living room, and the family room we’ve converted into studio space so I can I can see what I’m working on in the studio out of the corner of my eye when I’m doing normal life stuff. And that helps, and usually stepping away from it for a couple days and trying to let go of what I thought my next step was going to be, and sort of entertain possibility of doing something radically different. And if I mean, I, because I work in layer of thing, layers of things. It, it’s, I can always put another layer of, you know, I can, I can decide to cover that all up with a, you know, a layer of paper that I’ve painted somehow to, you know, if there’s, if there’s parts of it that I think are really going wrong, I can, I can pile stuff on top of that, to obliterate it somehow and keep, I mean, I find that that if I keep working on it, it gets it’s better than just walking away. You know, usually, usually, the things that our best are things that have gone sideways part way through. You know, things that have come together easily are not as interesting in the end as the ones that I’ve had to save somehow.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:37

Yeah, yeah. It’s really interesting. Because I feel like, like you said, it’s a bit of a balance of, like, okay, working more or stepping away. Because even in oil painting, we also have the issue of, like, overworking, yeah, where a section of a painting just looks like it’s been touched way, way, way more than it should have been. And then, like you said, areas that are just oh, they came together really easily, and they’re not as fun or as, like, nice. So I think that’s really interesting, especially with, you know, how I find that I think abstract in that sense, might be a little more challenging, because you are so dependent on the abstract forms of composition, compared to, you know, like with a realistic oil painting, where you can just lay things out and it’s a it’s a lot more obvious to the eye what things are, because you’re already telling them, this is what this is with abstract that it seems like much more of a challenge to like you said how you had focused a bit more on composition. What would you recommend to someone who maybe wants to improve composition? How much of it is experimentation, and how much might be like looking at other artists who have worked on composition? What have you done to improve your composition?

Nancy Phillips: 38:58

I would say, look, look carefully at paintings you like, and pay attention to what you like about them and where you’re looking and what’s happening there where you’re looking. I think it. I think a vast majority of learning to make successful artwork is learning to stop to not, you know, just whack away endlessly, you know, to to, you know, put down a brush stroke and don’t do three or more. You know, it’s, it’s, really, it’s taken me forever to just not overwork things. And. And you know, to see what one brushstroke will do. And especially because I’m working, I work a lot in materials that move after I put them down. I’m not working in impasto oil paint, although that’s what I love looking at. Just to let, let the paint do, do what it does. And, and, you know, step back and, and, you know, stop messing with it so much. Yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:37

that just reminded me too of something that I thought about, which is dialog, right? Having a dialog like you’re saying with the painting, like it’s, I think it’s a lot easier to notice too and abstract, because you have such a very particular conversation with the materials, because you have, especially with a caustic how you’re describing, that it’s such a challenging thing to work with, you have to have a dialog with them, and that material is telling you, this is what I’m going to do, and you got to figure out how you’re going to react to me, because this is what I’m going to do, right? Yeah? And I think that’s one of the bigger challenges, but the way you’re mentioning it, yeah, I think having a bit more of like that, allowing the medium to speak to you, which doesn’t necessarily always happen with oils, in in a realistic sense, I think it’s a lot more obvious with the abstract.

Nancy Phillips: 41:34

Yeah, kind of but I mean, I think look at, I mean, if you’re a realist painter, look at your realist painter heroes, you know, we you, you know, look at John Singer Sargent and his, you know, his individual brushstrokes are like little abstract paintings. And that’s one of the things that makes his work so amazing is that, you know, if you take, you know, a little tiny snapshot, it looks like, you know, Mark Rothko and, and that’s, that’s the hard part is, is, You know, letting an individual brushstroke speak for itself, and and, you know, let it be paint on the canvas, instead of, you know, paint by numbers, you know, a solid block of, you know, titanium white, you know, inside black lines. And that’s, that’s what I do, just on a different scale, I think. And, you know, incorporating different stuff in there too, but, but it’s, it’s letting your materials do what they do best.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:56

Yeah, yeah. And trusting the process to an extent. Because, gosh, I mean, when it’s like, especially with encaustic, or, like, any of the materials that you use that want to do what they want to do, you almost have that you have to let go so much. You have to surrender so much to the process. How, how is that experience been for you? Like, did you have, you have you noticed that you’ve built a bit of resilience towards, like letting the materials do what they want. You develop a very thick skin,

Nancy Phillips: 43:29

yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen. You know? I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting and and you know you you have to let go of your expectations and and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned, at least. And I mean, I I just finished a piece. I’m entering in a in a show tomorrow where there was all kinds of interesting things going on, but there was way too much interesting things going on, and what I ended up doing to save it, in my opinion, is just, I mean, it’s a relatively medium sized piece, which I usually don’t work medium size. But in this case, I am, and I ended up focusing on a piece, you know, that was like two inches by three inches, because it was interesting, but there was just too much. Noise in the background. So I had to basically isolate that little interesting spot in order to let that be the focal point and be interesting. And, you know, let the back just, you know, take a rest, you know, and, you know, fade into the background so that you’re not so frantically distracted by, you know, all the other things going on in the composition. So it’s not what I intended at all when I started this piece, but that’s where I ended up. And you know, so far so good. We’ll see,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:46

yeah, and you know what it I find that that is so interesting. And I think it happens to anyone who’s creating anything, whether it’s painting a craft, anything where, like we might have an idea of what something, you know, what we want something to turn out to be, and then we have to, you know, come to a compromise where it’s not going to look like that, no matter what. It might come close, but sometimes it might never do that. And I think it’s because in sometimes we have, like, some somewhat of, like a dream, like, way of seeing things where, like in a dream, you know, things don’t always make sense. Like someone’s arm might be coming out in a funny way, but in the dream it looks normal. It’s, I find that it’s, there’s also that practice of, like, imagination that gets translated, and then you just have to deal with reality.

Unknown: 46:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:41

And then I also wanted to ask you, because you do sell your your work, which is awesome, what was it like for you when you you started selling more of your work? Like, what because you, you had mentioned to me you actually did some freelance work on the side. What was it like for you when you were balancing those two things, oh,

Nancy Phillips: 47:03

it’s, it’s always been that way for me. I’ve I, when I first got out of college, I worked in a bank for about a year and a half and learned about finance, and then I worked in the interior design industry, and I thought, Oh, great, I’m going to do all this arts, Arty stuff in the interior design industry, and that didn’t happen. I became the accountant, but that’s always been a skill I have in my back pocket, and so I’ve always been able to freelance that and do art at the same time, and that’s helped a lot. So, so that, I mean, I still do accounting a little bit, not very much, but, but it’s, it works. It works and it helps, you know, run a household with a couple artists in it,

Unknown: 48:09

yes, for sure, but

Nancy Phillips: 48:14

it’s been, it’s, it’s been nice to have, I can, I can, I can see how they sort of influence each other. It’s, it’s nice to have something that’s neat and tied up in a box, and when you’re done, you’re done and and you can put it aside. And then there’s this other thing that you know is hardly ever neat in a box, and but, but, you know, I’m still making order out of chaos in in the artwork that I do so and actually, I mean, in the just the artwork I’ve sold, I mean, I’ve been in a number of different galleries, and they’ve always, it’s always been sort of a fluke that has gotten me in the first, the first gallery I was in, I’ve always entered, did a lot of entering jury shows, and, you know, accumulating those lists on my line, on my resume. And I was getting something, I went into a frame shop to get a piece framed that was going in a show. And the framework, I said, Oh, you know, this is just like all the stuff I framed for this gallery over there. You should, you know, show your work over there. And that’s how I got into the first one. And then I forget how the second or third popped up. And then my husband was in a gallery in Massachusetts, and my brother went in there and started chatting with the owner, and she said, Oh, you know, what does your sister do? Well, she’s an artist too, and so she invited me to an invitational show, and my stuff sold, and then she it. Ended up selling quite a lot of my stuff over the years. So it’s always been sort of fluky things like that. But you never know who’s going to see your work where and think they can sell it and, you know, develop a relationship. So one thing sort of leads to another, at least for me, it’s worked that way. But you got to get your work out there where people are going to see it. So you have to enter a lot of shows and join a lot of art groups. I mean, I’ve, I’ve been in a lot of art groups over the years, women artists, mostly sometimes abstract painting groups, encaustic groups, and a lot of those sort of came and went over, you know, covid But, but you know, they have exhibits, they show and then you know your stuff is out there. And you just never know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:01

yes, yeah. I mean, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned, I think, a few times on the podcast, which is, it’s fine to be, you know, an artist who’s in their studio, but in the end, if you want to get your work seen and sold, hopefully you have to step out of the studio, right? You have to go out and talk to people, or, like you said, you know, you went to a framer and the framers like, oh, this, this, and that, you know, go check those people out. They might like you, right? So having that, you know, human connection part, I think, is so underrated. And you mentioned to me, I think that you also started with, you know, you were also doing auctions as well, like going to those events.

Unknown: 51:46

Yes, yes, yes,

Nancy Phillips: 51:51

yeah, we find that that local community galleries and and museums have art auction Invitational things. So we so my husband and I both get invited to submit work to those venues, which are always, I mean, it’s always a great place to meet other artists and see what the other artists in the area are doing, and get your work out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:18

Yeah, definitely, yeah. And how have you found these events? Have you like, has it been the internet, word of mouth, like, how have

Nancy Phillips: 52:28

you just they’ve been art through gallery owners that represent us. I seem to be on boards of museums, and somehow our names get on lists and so,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:44

yeah, that’s, of course, over time. I mean, as you build your, you know, reputation, but in a way, it is building your reputation where you start getting seen more, yeah, it definitely makes it easier to find those opportunities.

Nancy Phillips: 52:55

Yeah, and if you join art groups, they’re always talking about where, you know, everybody’s talking about where they’re showing and where they’re entering, and you piggyback on your friends, you know, I mean, you know, there’s a lot of word of mouth out there that you can take advantage of. So it really helps to get out of the studio and get interacting with other artists who are doing what you’re doing and going to, you know, conventions and things like that. Yeah, yes, yeah, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:25

I mean, you have to seek those opportunities out, right? I mean, something else that I’ve mentioned, which is, like, I think there are a lot of people, maybe not a lot of people, but it has happened to us at some point where we think, Oh, maybe an opportunity will follow my lap, right? It’s like, it might in the future, but you need to start building up, like, to get to that point,

Nancy Phillips: 53:43

you need to create your own opportunities that you can take advantage of.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:48

Yes, yes, yeah. It’s, it’s a little less common that they fall on someone’s

Nancy Phillips: 53:53

lap, not out of the blue, rarely, yes, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:57

It’s usually a bit of, like, a cause and effect thing, or like, oh, maybe you did a piece for this one thing, and then few years down the line, someone’s like, remembering you. It’s all this person might be perfect for this thing, but you have to have had that experience first of like, having put yourself out there in the first place. No one to find your work if it’s if you’ve never put it out there,

Unknown: 54:16

right, right, right. Yes, absolutely, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:22

And then I wanted to ask you, if you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist,

Nancy Phillips: 54:33

I would say, don’t give up, but have a day job, maybe not necessarily a full time day job. I mean, that’s, that’s why I chose this accounting gig, is because I could do that on freelance, on my own, you know, I have, I’ve, I worked for companies for a while, but I hated. I hated being told what to do and where to be when, and it just worked for me to be able to to have my own clients and do it when I wanted to, so that I could do other things when I needed to. And that’s just, it’s i It’s I think, particularly these days, in this day and age, it’s very difficult to be able to make enough money doing fine art to pay your bills. It’s very, very difficult. And, you know, but some people do it and, but you gotta work hard at it, and you gotta, you gotta get yourself out there and, and I think I don’t do workshops myself, although I’ve I’ve done a couple little day things with artists friends of mine, showing them, you know, how I work with encaustic on top of acrylic, on top of all the other media that I use. But I think that’s how a lot of artists are doing it these days, and it’s a great way to sell your work too. You know, I mean, people who take your workshops love your work, and, you know, put two and two together and take advantage of the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:35

So, yeah, it’s a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a it’s, I think it’s good to be honest with ourselves, in that sense, like how you’re saying, like, if, if living below your means isn’t necessarily a possibility, it is good to have a steady day job to help support, you know, an artistic career, in some sense. And I mean, that’s a pragmatic way to do it, so you’re not starving, unless you have really great family support, which not everyone has. But if you do, that’s awesome. That’s very lucky. Yeah. I mean, so much of being an artist is, you know, it can get really tough financially because it it, you know, again, bring it back to the resilience, resilience within your work, right? But also resilience in the fact that sales are going to go up and down, right? You’re not going to be selling all the time, and you have to be able to plan ahead for those moments where, oh my gosh, like, I haven’t sold in a few months. What can I do? And having that financial anxiety can be really, really tough for some people. So having, like you said something to fall back on that is a skill that you you’ve learned, whether it’s accounting or you know anything that is usually, I mean accounting, for sure, is always in demand. So I think that’s a very wise decision. But if someone you know doesn’t like numbers, right, finding something that they’re good at, that they know that they can put to use in those challenging moments, I think is very, very smart for sure.

Nancy Phillips: 58:13

Yes, yes. It’s necessary in this day and age, anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:20

Yeah, yeah, but, yeah. I think, you know, artists will always exist. I think we’re very stubborn people. You know, we love to do what we do, and we will find ways to do it no matter what. And that’s, I think the biggest thing when you’re an artist is just remembering, man, I love to do this, and I will find ways to do

Nancy Phillips: 58:42

it, yeah, yeah, yes. And when people buy from you, it’s, it’s very gratifying. I mean, it really, you know, is an affirmation of all of that.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:58

Yes, it really completes it. Yeah, it feels amazing, because it’s like, oh my gosh, someone actually wants this, this piece that I agonized over and cried over, and it’s awesome. Yes, awesome. Human connection is beautiful. But yeah, I am now extremely curious about encaustic. Thanks to you. I, you know, have studied a lot of in art history, and I’ve studied a lot of paintings that used encaustic and like old techniques, and I find that fascinating. So I think I will definitely reach out to you if I have any questions about encaustic, just like you know, many of our listeners,

Nancy Phillips: 59:37

YouTube, yes, source of all knowledge, source of a lot of knowledge.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:45

Oh my gosh yes, especially for less well known techniques like encaustic, or less popular, I should say, because it is so niche that you know, the people who do know, they really, really want to share this information. They i. I agree. I mean, there’s so much that can get lost over time if we don’t take care of, you know, collecting that information and spreading it out to others, it can be really, really tough. But then I’m grateful for all those people on the internet who do these niche things and like, they’re like, We need to put all of this on there, because it makes life easier for the ones who do find it like ah,

Nancy Phillips: 1:00:25

but, but beware that that encaustic has its chemical dangers too. I mean, you don’t go messing around with it without learning about because you don’t want to incorporate encaustic and thinners make really bad. They make fumes that are very toxic, so you want to have good ventilation and all that, don’t, you know, sit there in your bathroom, you know, melting wax, very bad idea. So educate yourself before you start messing around with that stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s the same with with oil paints too. I mean, you don’t want to be breathing in turpentine, no, much you don’t want to eat while you’re using lead

Unknown: 1:01:20

white, yes, yeah. So pay attention to that chemistry part, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:26

yeah, because it can be very life or death. I mean, I’ve heard of instructors that I’ve had in the past who are, you know, always using oil paint, and now they have, you know, heavy metals poisoning, or have had it, and it’s good to just avoid it in the first place. So it’s good to know, yeah, the safety precautions of encaustic, you know, kind of like how an oil paint you should never, ever, ever leave a rag crumpled up that has oil paint on it, unless you are very much wanting to burn down your own house. Yeah, yes, which I don’t think many of us do. But yes, that’s a very X point. And then, if someone wants to see your absolutely gorgeous encaustic paintings and other paintings that you’ve made, where can they go? Check them out.

Nancy Phillips: 1:02:12

I have a website, Nancy Crandall phillips.com that has all of my work on it. And also, I mean, there, you should also know, I mean, I have a friend who I helped set up a pottery studio a number of years ago, which has gotten me back into pottery. And there’s, there’s some pottery on the website too, but that’s just for fun, really, because once you’re addicted to these art, material things you can never quite get away from them. So anyway, I agree Nancy Crandall phillips.com is where, and I have an Instagram page too that I’m very bad at maintaining, but hopefully I will be better of that in the future. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:00

And then I will also include all of your links in the show notes for people to go check it out. And then if they watch the video, they will have seen your gorgeous work, which it is so nice. Please go check it out, guys. It makes you really want to try abstract because it’s just, it’s the qualities in it are. So I don’t know, there’s something very peaceful about your work that I

Nancy Phillips: 1:03:25

thank you. I feel like, like, the way my compositions work out. Usually are very sort of landscape. You know, they’re like, anyway, they’re they’re reminiscent of abstract landscapes to me in my head, but anyway, thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:45

Well, thank you, Nancy, this was a fun conversation. I am definitely going to go investigate encaustics, and who knows, maybe I’ll start playing around with some abstract to see if I can let go of all that perfectionism that realism tends to track you too.

Nancy Phillips: 1:04:03

Contact me anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:07

Yes, I will definitely keep in touch. Thanks. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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If you wish to comment on this piece, we are accepting comments on the original post here.

Solitude

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

This is a follow-up article to The Art of Re-Creation. If you haven’t read that essay yet, I recommend you start there. Both of these articles are excerpts from my upcoming book The Sovereign Artist: The liberating power of the creative act.

We’ve discussed that entering the heart of creativity involves following wonder and divine inspiration. By following that spark that is striving, through you, to share its story, you’re attempting to bring into being something extraordinary that the world has never before seen. And to truly achieve this, you must enter that divine state of flow and play in the eddies of the creative waters as they swirl around you.

Doing this often requires entering into long stretches of solitude — time when you can allow ideas to arrive; time when you can simply contemplate; time when you can listen for the muse’s whisper.

I want to briefly mention meditation. Nothing helped me hear the call of my soul more than meditation. It is the ultimate state of solitude; the ultimate state of listening; the ultimate way to see through illusion; the ultimate process of deprogramming; and the ultimate state of connecting with the sacred. Please consider trying it. It has the power to infuse all of your work with fresh insights and creativity. Meditation is the practice that brought me out of my dark night and I still meditate regularly to this day. I discuss meditation a bit more in Appendix I.¹

Whatever methods of solitude you choose, the times that you create or re-create are sacred and must be protected. Interruptions kill the flow state and the flow state is necessary to produce extraordinary work. I truly believe interruptions are the most dangerous thing any artist faces.

Your family may mean well when they pop in and ask you what you want for lunch, but they may knock you out of an inspired state that you can’t get back into. Perhaps this danger is why Julia Cameron, in The Artist’s Way, required that the weekly artist date be undertaken by the artist alone.

The Muse is your paramour. She is private and for you alone, and she may flee if another person gets involved. You must guard her jealously, particularly in the early stages of creation which often arrives during our renewal periods. Constant interruptions, especially, are dangerous because your energy will be diverted toward the wrong things, and that may leave you depleted and tired when it’s time to create.

True art often requires long stretches of uninterrupted time in your studio, so you must set limits to protect your (re)creative time.

An artist must have downtime, time to do nothing. Defending our right to such time takes courage, conviction, and resiliency. Such time, space, and quiet will strike our family and friends as a withdrawal from them. It is.

— Julia Cameron, The Artist’s Way

If you don’t protect your time, you will struggle to master your craft and produce enough sale-able work. Nearly all of the great creatives I know treat their studio time like a nine-to-five job, and during their regular hours (whatever those hours may be), rain or shine, inspired or not, they set aside that sacred dedicated time for themselves.

Do whatever you must to protect your creative time. You have to be very selfish to be original.

— Miles Davis

My wife and I once experienced this professional devotion to regular hours firsthand while visiting the painter Kevin Macpherson at his home near Taos, New Mexico. At breakfast one morning he politely explained that although we were on vacation, he was not. He would be in his studio until five o’clock and asked that we not interrupt him unless it was an emergency.

His studio stood a short walk from the house. The mountains were beautiful, the day was perfect, and he surely would have enjoyed joining us for a bike ride through the hills. But he didn’t. His studio time was sacred.

The professional artist understands that creative time is holy. Once lost, it cannot be recovered.

If you want to produce enough masterful, inspired works, which is what it takes to be successful, you must be just as protective of your creative time as Kevin is of his.

Leave a comment

PS — Next time we’ll look at the other primary method of re-creation: Nature. In the meantime, if these topics interest you, please click here to join the waitlist for my forthcoming book.

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And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

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Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The BoldBrush Letter.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

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We’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us in this movement.

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Feature Article:

What Happens When We Stop Talking To Those Who Make Us Alive

The less we talk, the less we have to say.

The more we talk, the more there is to say.

That sounds like a contradiction – but it isn’t.

What happens when we don’t talk to a friend for a long time? Will we have more to talk about when we finally meet?

Surprisingly, no. At first, we will have to reconnect – we will have to “catch up.” The conversation doesn’t flow smoothly until that phase is over.

Paradoxically, the less we talk, the less we have to say. The more we talk, the more there is to talk about.

But isn’t that a contradiction? Don’t we have more to share after not seeing a friend for a long time? Don’t we have so much to catch up on?

That’s exactly the point. When there is much to catch up on, it means we’ve grown apart. It takes far more effort and time to reconnect to someone who has drifted so far from you that you need the “catching up.”

When we have grown apart, it is often because, at some point, our conversation ceased. When a conversation ceases, we inevitably fall silent – and eventually become mute. We lose our ability to speak. Speech is kindled only by speech. Human speech springs from hearing Divine speech.

J.R.R. Tolkien captured this strange conundrum beautifully through Treebeard’s words to Pippin, explaining how the Ents came to be. Once, they were only trees. But when the ancient Elves began to speak to them, the trees awoke:

“Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did… It was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten.”
— The Lord of the Rings

When I first read this, I thought, What a metaphor!

When someone who is truly alive begins to speak to you, you awaken – you come alive as well. When you cease speaking with them, you gradually fall asleep and eventually fall into silence – become mute. This is exactly what happened to the Ents who stopped speaking with the Elves – they turned back into wood.

The gift of speech is mysterious. Our speech is born from hearing the Speech. We remain mute until we hear God Himself speaking. True speech is always a response. As Jesus said,

“From the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks.”

The world itself began in divine speech. In the beginning, there was a divine counsel: “Let us make…” And from that primordial conversation, everything we see came to life.

When we begin conversing with God, we come alive. When we continue in conversation with God, we stay alive and begin to speak words from above. Our speech becomes inspired.

The conversation must not cease, for our ability to converse is born out of conversing.

In the absence of true, enlivening conversation, we begin to lose the gift of speech and drift toward false, deadening talk – the kind that slowly turns us back into wood.

We turn on the TV, scroll through social media, and endlessly watch reels. Whenever I catch myself doing this, I know it’s a sign: I am slowly turning into wood. I am falling asleep. I am becoming mute.

I have to turn back – I have to begin an enlivening conversation with an “Elf” in my life.

For enlivening conversations awaken, stir, and invigorate. They cure us of dumbness – and that is a great gift that cannot be forgotten.

Leave a comment

PS — Check out Eugene’s book Fairy Tales for Grown-Ups: Rediscovering Myth and Meaning through Tolkien, Lewis, and Barfield.

Available on Amazon or his website.

PPS - We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us in this movement.

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We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Lordier, a California-based pastel artist, mom, and former flight attendant whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life. Influenced by early California and American impressionists, Kim focuses on value, shape, and expressive color, and credits key workshops—especially learning notan and studying with mentors like Skip Whitcomb—for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her longstanding struggles with negative self-talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the “preciousness” of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative “aha” moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and “ladder” is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison, respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember there is always another canvas to paint. Finally she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops!

Kim’s FASO site:
kimfancherlordier.com

Kim’s Social Media:
instagram.com/klordierart/

facebook.com/kim.lordier

Bob Newhart’s “Stop it!”
vimeo.com/97370236

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

Just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through it, because there’s your way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others her in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Laurier, a California based pastel artist, mom and former flight attendant, whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life influenced by early California and American impressionists. Kim focuses on value shape and expressive color, and credits key workshops, especially learning notan and studying with mentors like skip Whitcomb for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her long standing struggles with negative self talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the preciousness of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative aha moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what she sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and ladder is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison and respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember, there is always another chemist to paint. Finally, she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops. Welcome Kim to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Kim Lordier: 2:13

I’m doing great. Thank you so much, Laura. I’m really honored to be here with you.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:19

Yeah, I’m excited to have you. I am so excited to pick your brain about your art, because I absolutely love your compositions so so much. And it actually, it’s one of those things where you look at it and you’re like, oh, man, this really makes me want to play. It makes me want to play with pastel. So bad, you know, coming, yeah. And that is so funny. Every pastel artist I’ve interviewed or talked to. They’re always so encouraging about trying out the medium, because it really does look magical, even though the piece that you have behind you, I’m just obsessed with the movement of tone in the sky. I’m like, yes, thank you. This is amazing. Yeah. But before we dive in more deeply into your gorgeous compositions, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Kim Lordier: 3:02

Sure, I’m a mom and a wife who probably thinks about values and color and light more than is socially acceptable. You know, when you’re out and about and people are having a conversation and you’re like staring at the, you know, the landscape, or whatever. So I wanted to be a horse trainer or a long haul trucker when I was little. I ended up being a flight attendant, which is kind of the same thing as a truck driver, only my cargo was people. I always been a road warrior. Loved to travel, particularly driving. When I was a youth. I traveled for horse shows and as a flight attendant, of course, flying around the country. And I love to drive for painting and art events, which kind of mean, a nutshell,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:01

yes, and you’re an avid outdoor sleep as well, from what I’ve seen,

Kim Lordier: 4:05

yes, I love being outside. I love Mother Nature.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yeah, yes. And I can tell because it really shows through in your work to that love for capturing just how gorgeous things can be. You know, the especially your pieces that have to, like, have this gorgeous crystalline water. I’m so obsessed with those blues. I love it. Thank you so much. Welcome. Yeah, and actually, I really wanted to know because, you know, many artists tend to do this for a very long time. We tend to have started doing this since we were children. Do you mind telling us when you began to follow the path of the artist?

Kim Lordier: 4:45

Well, I think, like many of us, including yourself, we started really young. Yeah, I was always kind of doodling in school. And, you know, first got my first. Was drawing published in a newspaper in first grade, and that my parents kept around. I had no idea until probably a few years ago, and then in fifth grade, I won an award painting or drawing a shark of all things had been, you know, spending all my little younger years drawing horses and little girls and dresses. And I kind of find out, found out early on about a connection between creating and outside acknowledgement for good or bad. You know, you know, you get that response, and that’s kind of a little bit of a dopamine rush in school when and when I was in high school, I started painting horses like with pastels. So I’ve been working with the pastel medium since I was 15, and I started doing horse and dog portraits at that age and for money. So I kind of had a taste of making money. And you know, when people would ask you to paint their horse, or that emotion that comes when they see it, you know, the painting, they’re like some people will cry and, you know, get real excited. And that was a big, I don’t know, just something that resonated with me. Then I became a flight attendant, and I was still doing the animal portraits. And then I found out, as a flight attendant, I wasn’t really a natural nurturer, so I would find myself getting the service finished and then finding an empty seat or heading up to the cockpit to go hang out so I could look outside the window and see all the beautiful, beautiful land that we were traveling over, or going, You know, flying the all nighter from San Francisco to Boston, we go over the northern pole, or towards the northern North America. And you could see the, I just remember this one time when the Northern Lights were happening and the the ground was just covered in clouds and had these popcorn explosions of of it was a big, big storm all that covered the continent or that I could see in front of me. And so you could see these just lightning flashes. And then just as the sun was just starting to create a little bit of peak on the horizon, it was just the most magical time, one of my favorite times ever flying. But it clearly wasn’t as in serving others that was, that was my, that wasn’t my forte. So, yeah, then I think this journey that I’m on now really culminated in 2001 when right around that time I was just dabbling in painting landscapes from photographs, and I saw a woman give a plein air demonstration, and I it was the first time I really felt like I had to do that. You know, when I was when I studied in school, I studied commercial illustration, and I really felt less than and not. I wasn’t competitive. I had no inner drive to pursue that way of working, and I wasn’t very good at the illustration and the it was just a competitive field when I was in that was right as computers were starting to come into into play. And it’s just a kind of an awkward way place for me. Anyway, I’m kind of jumping around here. So I had become a flight attendant, and 911 happened, and I saw this woman give a plein air demonstration. I knew in my in my gut, that I had to paint from start, painting from life. So I started taking a class from her in oil. I was still doing the animal portraits, and then I also, you know, as a flight attendant, I had the privilege of, you know, getting to see the louver and the Met and Boston Museum, and, you know, all these amazing museums. But I was really never, I loved what I saw, but was really never punched in the gut by a painting until I saw museum Oakland museum exhibition that featured the early California impressionists, and that’s the first time i. Really was kind of floored, and kind of had the wind knocked out of me. This just was everything that, you know, I love, I’d love the illustrators, and looking at the illustrators, and, you know, the the impression of French Impressionists were, it was beautiful work. But the California impressionist and then my later study into more American impressionism really just grabbed hold of me, where there’s a marriage of tone and value and shape along with broken color and the expressive brush work. And at that point in time, I, you know, I was certainly aware of Sergeant and soroya and Zorn and all those guys, but really hadn’t taken it was just kind of early on in my my creative journey. And anyway, so all of that kind of culminated around 911 and started working from life, which was a game changer for me, and things really rapidly progressed from there in terms of, I would say, the quality of my work, my passion, the fact that I started feeling like I had an actual creative bone in my body. Instead of that, I was just able to copy, copy something.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:21

Yes, yeah. And those are all really important names, and I could totally see how that would affect your work, because I think there’s something in your strokes. It’s very it’s expressionistic and impressionistic and abstract, which is very beautiful. I think some of my favorite paintings, you’re welcome. So my favorite paintings of all time have always had a very wonderful element of abstraction, so that the eye itself can kind of like work alongside the piece to complete the image. You know, what might look up close like a little blurry thing from afar is a tree. You know, the eye says, Yeah, that’s a tree. It’s like, no, it’s just a little abstract mark on the on the paper or on the canvas. And I think that’s the magic, I think, in painting. And I wanted to ask you, because I think your compositions are so wonderful. I think anyone who goes and checks out your work should definitely study how you’ve laid out your values and how you’ve laid out your colors, because there is definitely a lot of knowledge that is obvious in your work. How would you say that you developed your skill in composition, you know, like the value composition, or actual physical laying out of the elements, color, composition. What helped you develop that skill?

Kim Lordier: 12:51

I think that the way I learned to see earlier on in my journey was I started studying plein air with this woman, and she was wonderful, and I was doing it in oil with her. And then I started painting this similarly with an underpainting process that I learned painting in oil from her with my pastels. Then I took a workshop with this gentleman by the name of John Barry Raybould, who created, after I took the in on location workshop, he created, he was in the process of creating the Virtual Art Academy, which is a great resource for folks. But he, during his workshop, I was painting in oil, and he kind of had this, you know, break you down before he builds you up, kind of way of working. And he taught us this, not amp process. And if you back in, back in that time, I didn’t really hear the word notan before. And notan, for those who are not familiar with that, is a Japanese term that’s loosely translated as black and white design. And he forced us to the first two full days of the workshop was creating notions with these pens, dark light, dark value, light value, and the middle value, and then the white of the paper. And we had to create compositions with that. And then we couldn’t use any color, even when we were on the whole thing was plein air. So we were composing in black and white, and I really learned the value, ha, ha, of values. And it was, and it was, it was kind of tough, because he would give you gold stars for failing at things. Right? So he had a little sheet on every person that was taking the workshop, and you’d get a gold star for not doing well with understanding value or not understanding edges. And so I just remember, you know, feeling good when I when I got there, and then then quickly realizing that I kind of sucked at all this. But then you know, things you know, turned around. And it really, actually forced me to to really learn, instead of just kind of doing, just diving in and doing, and I think that was the biggest, the biggest thing. And then I kind of took that and started breaking apart. You know, my favorite artists work, living and deceased that way, and understanding that really simplifying shape and values had a great deal of impact from across the room. And that’s kind of what I carry on in, how what I teach in during, you know, my workshops. And then, you know, just building on all of that that I learned really early on. And then, you know, my I took one workshop in pastel. I’ve only had about four or five over the course of my career that I’ve taken but my first workshop was with an amazing past Ellis and oil painter. His name is Lorenzo Chavez, and I remember going up to taking a five day workshop with him on location in Tucson. I’m from California, where it was all big oak, dark oak trees and dense shadows, and out in a Tucson desert, it was so aired, I felt like I was painting a Mars and had no relationship. So I really had to think about, instead of big, dark shapes, you know, how do you compose in terms of value, you know, in a higher key environment? And that kind of led me down a different path. And then a key layer in my journey was is continued to this day as Skip Whitcomb, who’s a pasoli oil painter and a mentor, an amazing, gifted artist, and the most generous soul with His knowledge and he’s had a I just recently, I think, you know, we never stopped learning. I just recently took a an online course with him called orchestrated color through the Tucson Art Academy, which has just been a tremendous joy for me to explore color. Color has always been very intuitive to me. I think color has been intuitively a strength of mine, that that I’ve always had fun with, but just actually learning more about color theory has been really a great asset and confidence builder, and has been really fun. We never stop learning. You know, continued, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:29

yeah, exactly, yeah. I was literally going to say the same thing, how with any craft, it’s, it’s more than a lifetime of things to continue to learn and expand within. So I find that’s one of the only reasons I would ever want to become a vampire, is to just have endless time to really hone a craft. Because even Michelangelo, when he was in his 80s, said, like, I’m finally learning, you know, like I’m getting somewhere, like, Oh no, don’t say that. Yeah. And I really find it cool that your instructor would put a gold star for a failure. Because I think at first it can be kind of jarring. It was very Yeah, yeah, because I can imagine, it’s like, congrats, you failed. It’s like, Oh, thanks. But I think failure is so important. I think we all have such a negative view of it, and that’s normal, I think because we are so used to the whole like being punished for failure, but in the sense of creative work, failure is so important. I think, yeah, you can’t, you can’t grow without messing it up, you know, like, and I think that’s one of the hard parts about being a working artist as well, because you try to sell work, you know, you try to create things so that you can put it in a gallery, and then it goes to solve. One’s home and it’s loved forever. But I think in order to get to that point, you have, you know, a lot of artists, me included, of course, we have to accept that not every piece is going to be nice, but that piece will lead to a better piece, usually, hopefully, fingers crossed,

Kim Lordier: 20:17

yes, and sometimes it’s, it’s the pieces that we love the most, that receive the least amount of outside acknowledgement, or whatever you want to, but I found that the paintings that you know I that really have resonated during my journey have always been because, in hindsight, because I’ve learned something, I tried something new that I was happy with. You know, it was had it was kind of successful in in my eyes, but really in the larger picture scheme of things, that was why I loved it was because I learned something, and I’m like, Hey, I got, you know, I just added another tool to my toolbox. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good painting or a solid painting, so I’ve kind of had to learn that,

Laura Arango Baier: 21:12

yeah, yeah. And I think that’s also why there’s a bit of a balance, I don’t know if you’ve experienced this too, where, when you make a painting, sometimes, especially, I think, I think it especially happens for the rest of one’s life, which is, you start a painting and you think, this is the one, this is going to be a masterpiece. Or, like, you feel like you have this like, Oh, I’m totally going to make this amazing. And then, of course, you get shot down by the reality, which is, it’s always a work in progress. You know, your works develop as much as you continue to develop as a person and as a crafts person as well. And yeah, it just the quicker you can understand that as you know, as an artist, one can understand it as an artist, the better it is. Because, like you said, you might have these exercise pieces or these pieces that you know you were hoping would be a masterpiece, but instead they were a lesson. And it’s so beautiful to have those lessons and to look back, you’re like, Man, I, as much as I suffered through this painting. And I think that’s one of those things where, like you really do suffer as an artist. So sometimes you just, you suffer so much through your work, but then once it’s over, and you can set it aside, and you look back on it, it’s like, Man, I overcame this. And I think that’s, that’s the part that I’ve also been trying to really focus on when I’m doing a really difficult piece or trying to overcome a really difficult problem is I find more satisfaction in solving and overcoming now than I used to before. I don’t know if you relate to that. Yes, it’s less satisfying now to actually get it right the first time.

Unknown: 22:58

Yes, I agree. I

Laura Arango Baier: 23:01

agree, yeah. And I wanted to ask you now, because it kind of ties in really well with asking you about if you’ve had any recent aha moments, or if you have you had like, a like, what’s your biggest aha moment that you’ve had over your creative work?

Kim Lordier: 23:20

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realize that it’s really, truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. And you know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And, you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like, knock on wood, you know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happen to my beautiful space that I love to be in, I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know. And I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody or you know that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here, but it’s just. That I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends. And there’s just nothing greater than that for me, other than being a mom and a wife, of course, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:29

yeah, totally Yeah. It’s living in the moment and just experiencing life, you know,

Unknown: 25:34

yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:37

Because I mean, oh yeah, go for it, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 25:39

Sorry. I had one more thing that was kind of an aha moment on a different scale, or on a different in a different way. I had great advice early on in my career from John Stern, who is the Director Emeritus of the Irvine Museum in Southern California. And I remember, I’m from Northern California in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I remember, you know, traveling down So Cal to go see an exhibition of the early California impressionist which is his one of his fortes, and what the museum, you know, their permanent collection, has an amazing early California Impressionist Collection. I remember, I met him really early on in my career, and he became, he became a mentor and a great supporter of my work. He, he and his beautiful wife, Linda, purchased one of my paintings and or, and they became collectors. Anyway, I remember he took me around and talked to me about the the current show that was up. And then we went back to his office, and we were just chatting. And I, you know, being a past Ellis at that point in time, you know, I kind of had that wiffle waffle, and I asked them, you know, John, should I be painting an oil to be considered a real artist? I know my friends are going to roll their eyes at this. And and he goes, Kim, you know you’re doing beautiful work. And make your mark. Make your mark in your medium. And it was, it was great, great. Very sounded advice. And I took that and rolled with it, and that was that was amazing. And one other thing that an art kind of an AHA thing that helps me move me forward through my journey, was I was also kind of lamenting the fact that our art community up here, at least for representational art, is not as prolific as the community is in Southern California, in my opinion. And I, you know, I remember saying to him, I wish, I wish I lived down there so I could be, you know, closer to the things that are, you know, the events and the people and stuff like that. He goes, Don’t be in a hurry. Or it was more than that. It was also, you know, being represented by galleries and about getting into bigger shows. You know that that hunger that we have as when we’re young and, you know, wanting to climb a proverbial ladder, and he told me, he says, Don’t be, don’t be in a hurry for what you think you really want, because that journey leads to, you know, galleries and shows and deadlines leads to time away for the the creative process of experimenting. And you know that that giving yourself time and grace to go play. And that’s that’s a whole journey in of itself, and and that really resonated with me, and I’ve tried very hard to keep my creative process separate from my marketing and business side of what I do, I think that keeping those things separate, I mean, they truly overlap, but keeping them separate as as much as you possibly can is really, really important. And I appreciate John for his advice way back then, because it’s really helped. I think stabilize. That doesn’t mean it’s gone away. You know that balance is, you know, tough,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:45

yeah, yeah. And I love that you mentioned that, because I’ve also heard that that piece of advice, which I’ve heard a couple people say, it is, enjoy your anonymity, yeah, especially at the beginning. As an artist, I think it’s also in reference to anyone who’s in a creative career, because early on, you’re not tied down by anything like you said. You’re not tied down by deadlines or by the calendar or by the 20 workshops that you might have signed up to teach out of excitement, and before you realize it, it’s, you know, it’s been a year or two or three, and you feel like, oh, man, I haven’t really advanced in in my creative work, right? Like it’s so important, like you said, to have that compartmentalization where, like, you know, you can schedule your experimental work because it and that kind of reminds me of this thing, which is like, there’s things, especially, like you said, you know, when you’re early in your career and you’re hungry, right? As an artist, there’s the things we think we want, and then there’s the thing we the things we actually want, right? So, and sometimes we don’t realize it, right? We don’t realize that the thing we actually want is to just keep creating. And we think we want gallery representation. And this actually leads perfectly into my next question about, you know, having this, I like to call it a Venn diagram, like I mentioned to you before, where we have the Venn diagram of what you want to paint and what sells. And then, for some people, the crossover between those two circles might be really, really narrow, and for some people, it might almost be a complete circle. How do you balance for yourself, creating the work that you want to create, and creating the work that will sell?

Kim Lordier: 31:39

Well, I feel really blessed that I still am passionate and love to paint mother nature in all her glory. So it feels natural to continue to feed the folks who run the amazing galleries that I’m in with the work that inspires me. I I feel extremely fortunate that, I mean, I’m one of my most spiritual places to be is Point Lobos in Carmel, or just south of Carmel, California. It’s along the California coast, and I’ve been represented by two amazing galleries down there, and Jim reserve fine art, who closed his doors because he retired a few a few years ago. And then I’m now down there with Laura Lai and at Carmel fine art, and I’ve always known that if and when that area doesn’t speak to anymore, then I know I have to part ways, because, you know that’s what they want. And our gallery owners that represent us, you know, they have their own esthetic vision and what’s important to them. So I feel blessed that, you know, that’s been a place that I revisit over and over again, that that whole, our whole coastline and the California landscape. So you know, that is, that has been, that has been the easy part. I think a difficult part for me has been, you know, when I travel outside my state and am so inspired by the landscape and the environment and the people, and I’m blessed to be in a few galleries outside my state, in Montana, at alume Gallery, and in Colorado at Wild Horse. And you know, trying to stay true to their vision and and you know, keeping my best work, you know, for them, they all want your best work, and it’s, you know, we don’t always have, we don’t always have our very best work available, because we’re still working so hard to to get to that point. I guess I think that. I think the takeaway is respecting your galleries and respecting the folks that run them, because they have their own vision. And if you’re if you’re not willing to compromise, I don’t happen to be in a position where I could just dictate what it is that I want to paint. I and you know, if you’re in that position, you know, with somebody representing you, oh, and my Hughes Skelly gallery too, down in Balboa Island, you. They all have their own vision. So if you don’t resonate with what they’re wanting, then it’s time to be professional and excuse yourself or have that conversation with you know, are you? Are you willing to carry some something else that I’m Are you willing to try something new with my work? You know, have the conversation and and being open and professional with them is really important.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:28

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Unknown: 37:08

I don’t know if I actually answered your question.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:12

Oh, you did. I think, I think you definitely did. Okay, good. Because, you know, I’ve heard a lot of artists refer to like relationships of galleries, almost like a marriage or a very, very long term friendship that you have to nurture. And you know, sometimes you have to part ways, or sometimes you have to grow together. And I think that’s a very important, like I said, important conversation to have, because as artists, we’re not just like for the most part. We’re not just this stagnant brand, right? We’re humans who are continuing to grow, and maybe at one point you’re exploring a particular type of subject matter, and then suddenly, as time goes on, you realize, man, I really want to explore this other subject matter, but this gallery in particular, I’m afraid that maybe they won’t take a risk on this new subject matter. Or, you know, how do I discuss it with them? Should I find another gallery for this other subject matter? Because there’s also, like, I think many of us artists, we’re lucky, of course, because I mean living from making beautiful paintings is it’s an incredible blessing. So you know, to maintain that blessing, you also have to realize when you don’t want it to become laborious, in the same sense that you know, if you’re going to suffer through forcing yourself to do something the same way you would an office job, you might as well get an office job. Because, yeah, at least the office job gives you a an actual paycheck in a constant manner. Yes, which is very rough when you’re an artist. Trying to go at it. So, yeah, there’s a bit of a balance. And then if you can, like, you said, if there’s a way to make it more enjoyable for yourself or your painting, like, I’ve heard artists say, like, yeah, you know, I stick to the to, you know, figuring out the stuff that I want to do. And then the gallery says, Hey, can you paint us three more sunsets? I will do it because I know it gives me the paycheck that I need to be able to sit and continue with my experimental work. So it’s, yeah, it’s a balance, hopefully, like I said, that Venn diagram is just a circle, though, for a lot of people, right? But when it isn’t, you got to find ways to supplement, and that’s just the, you know, tough part of being an artist, unless you’re a ridiculously wealthy person already, you know,

Unknown: 39:52

that would be okay. Oh, that’d be great.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:54

Yeah. I would just paint whatever the heck I want and start my own gallery.

Kim Lordier: 40:00

It. Be careful starting your own gallery. That’s a

Laura Arango Baier: 40:03

lot of work. Girl, yes, it is. Yeah. Okay, there you go. I would totally hire people. Oh, man, but I wanted to ask you now, since we’re on a little bit more of the topic of business, when you were still a flight attendant, right? What was that like for you when you decided to shift over to your creative work? What was that like for you?

Kim Lordier: 40:34

It was, I mean, the whole world, and most particularly the United States, you know, there, there was a catastrophic, catastrophic event that happened. And the decision was not difficult. It was like, you know, I, I mentioned earlier, I’m not a natural nurturer. I was, I ended up being a flight attendant because I’m very grateful that my dad was is a right retired captain for a major airline, and when I got out of school, that I’m so thankful that they were able to help me get through college. You know, I flew for the about 12 years. And then 911 happened. And you know, that was, that was a wake up call for a lot of people, the horror of it, and then the Life is short, part of and I, I don’t even want to say this, but the the silver lining around such a horrible event was such that the I went back and flew for about the month of October, after they let that the airs that planes back up In the air, and nobody was flying, and the the airline said, Hey, we’re asking for volunteer furloughs. And I raised my hand because I wasn’t going to lose any seniority, nor was I going to lose my medical benefits. I was going to lose a paycheck, or I lost it pay my paycheck. But it was an opportunity to see if I could do this full time, and I did, and I’ve never looked back, and I’m so grateful for the the opportunities that have come my way since since then but it was, it was, it was a safety net and so that that’s kind of how that that happened for me. I just, I made the choice and never looked back, because, and I feel strongly, you know that you know we are meant to go down a path and the doors open when you know when they’re supposed to So,

Unknown: 43:13

anyway, so that’s, that’s it was. It was quick. And fast is what it was.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes life can be that way. It really becomes a moment where you have this very obvious turning point where it’s like, it’s now or never. Because, like you said, Life is short. You never know, yeah, what’s going to happen tomorrow? We can, we can think that tomorrow’s sunrise is, you know, short for us. But it’s not always the case, and I feel the same way, you know, I try to be like, is this an opportunity that if I don’t take it, I’ll regret forever? If the answer is yes, I’m just going to do it right, yeah? Because yeah, like we said earlier, you only live once, and you got to take that opportunity, if it’s the one that you think is right for you. I’m guessing though, that in that time when you were furloughed, you just focused on making work. Did you also focus like, did you already have galleries that you were talking to or were working with? Or did you have to rebuild that and like, No,

Kim Lordier: 44:19

make right around. Yes, sorry for talking right around that time, it was a lot of things happened all at the same time I mentioned earlier, you know, I saw that the early California Impressionists started painting, painting from life in, you know, 2009 11 happened, and I was, had already been in my first I was invited to be in a cooperative Gallery, and so I was kind of seeing what that what that felt like being in a gallery. You know, when I was I’ve never. Pre that as a goal to be in galleries. I didn’t have a clear vision of what my creative journey was going to be like, you know, moving forward. And so I was, I was already in the Portola Art Gallery at that time, and shoot, I forgot what your question was.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

If you know you’re good, it’s only if you continued, or, like, when you were furloughed, how you managed to, like, you know, get back into or, like, start working with galleries and like, oh,

Kim Lordier: 45:33

right, right. Okay, yeah, yeah. Thank you for the the prompt we let’s see, started working from life to 2001 2002 you know, I’m learning my craft and working, or being in the involved with that gallery, and then I end up getting pregnant. And then my very first, my very first plenary event was Carmel fine art, and I was six months pregnant, and I remember slipping around out in Carmel in the sand dunes with my big belly and my art gear and painting and it was a great experience. And I continued to do plenary events, which is kind of how I got my voice, my work out there, and the galleries I had, I just had I’ve been so blessed my gallery in Carmel. Jim approached me during an event down in the Laguna, Laguna planer painters Invitational, way back in 2005 he goes, I really love your work, Kim. And would you be interested in me representing you up in Carmel? And so, you know, I ended up there bringing him a body of work, and so that, that has been a blessing. Gosh darn it. I forgot what the what your question was. Again,

Laura Arango Baier: 47:21

backwards. And 10 in time, you’re good, you’re good. It’s, yeah, it’s just how you built up, you know, your art career after, yeah, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 47:29

So it’s been, it was, you know, I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of, I think, like a lot of us, throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium. We have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows so my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base, and that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know my friends, people that are who maybe listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s Your Way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work again. Remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important, but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get. The top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke. That’s so corny.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:10

Oh no, but it’s, can’t believe I said that, and it’s a great point. I think it’s, I think I was mentioning this earlier too, like, how, ah, you know, there’s something about making work that also speaks to yourself, right? It’s the work that you care about. Because if you’re painting, you know, someone else’s work, right, you’re imitating someone else, which is totally fine. I mean, we all start with imitation, to some extent. That’s how we learn to write, that’s how we learn language and art being a language, that’s how we learn to paint and express ourselves. But if that’s all you’re doing, using climbing someone else’s ladder, you’re setting yourself up for failure. I mean, yeah, there’s, after so many years of betraying yourself like that, right? Betraying the actual deep message, the ones that come through, you’re gonna feel empty. You’re gonna feel you know, it’s, it’s inevitable, because it’s not your dream, right?

Kim Lordier: 51:16

And and also, climbing summit, I think, I think about climbing somebody else’s ladder is where it’s more about comparing your journey to somebody else’s, where you see somebody being real successful, and you get frustrated because you’re not climbing the rungs the same way as that other person. And so being aware that it’s, it’s your own journey that is that you need to just to stay in and relish and I think, yeah, no, it’s your personal ladder to climb, not not somebody else’s, and to do your best to keep the comparison out of it, because it’s so easy to compare. And you know, if you’re not getting into shows and you’re not getting acknowledgement, that doesn’t mean that your work’s bad, awful or a failure, it just means that that’s just somebody else’s opinion, and the most important opinion is how you feel about your own process. The takeaway, I think, is that if you’re not in love with your own process, then none of the rest of it matters, not the likes, not the hearts, not the followers. None of that matters if you don’t love what you’re doing, and it’s doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to follow the path of how you see somebody else, quote, unquote, making it, because you also don’t know what’s behind the scenes of that artist’s dialog that they say to themselves, that’s a whole nother thing. You know your internal dialog that happens? You know, I have a lot of negative dialog that has run throughout my journey, and that whole feeling of that imposter syndrome, too is a big has been run all through and still does to this day, little little devil on my shoulder that I’m like That flick off, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:18

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, totally. And that’s why, you know, it’s if you have the devil on one side right, telling you all these horrible things, which most of us artists do, it’s better to just, like, go listen to the other side, little angel on the other side, and, like, try to pay attention to that a little bit more. You know, to some extent, it is good to be aware of where you can improve, but not to the point where you’re crying yourself to sleep every night. Absolutely, yeah, and I love that you mentioned, you know, not, not chasing someone else’s, you know, like level of success, or how quickly they’ve ascended, because that’s just their path. You know, you can’t, yeah, sometimes life will throw you into an even more amazing path than you can ever imagine. And that’s why to it, yes, yeah, you have to stay open to that. Yeah, stay receptive and open, because you like a little bit like I said earlier, there’s what you think you want, and then there’s life surprising you with something even more grand or something even more magical that like you’re, I don’t know, 1820, year old self could never have imagined. Because life, of course, continues and keeps going and going. And when you think you’ve seen it all, and you think you know it all, it surprises you again with something even nicer and even more amazing, truth. Yeah, true, yeah. And actually, I did also want to ask you, since we’re on the topic of, you know, like, some of the difficulties of being an artist, besides, you know, the creative aspect, financial aspect, and. What do you what would you say is one of the hardest things about being a full time artist that no one really talks about.

Kim Lordier: 55:08

Um, all I can speak is for from my own journey, and we’ve already, kind of, I already touched upon it, and that’s been a, you know, an a negative internal dialog that I’ve, I’ve battled since, you know, since college, I remember, you know, I studied commercial illustration, and I cut my way through classes because I never felt good enough. And it was very competitive. There was a lot of in a lot of ways, you know, what I felt? It doesn’t necessarily mean it was actually what was happening, but it’s how I felt. But the you know, the harsh critiques, the never feeling like I could draw well enough, like comparing myself to the other people around me. It was a and that I built on that, and still to this day, I kind of battle with that. You know, not again. It’s the comparing that is always going to take, tear you down. It’s not going to keep you, it’s not going to it’s not going to allow you to rise up. So, you know that imposter syndrome? You know, when the successes that I’ve been truly, amazingly Blessed with over the years in my journey, I’ve had some, you know, some wonderful things happen. And basil, you’re like, Is it for real? You know, did you know that I just, Is that for real? You know? And it still amazes me, you know, today, when something beautiful happens, such as this conversation that we’re I’m allowed to have with you and share my journey with you and whoever’s maybe listening, I remember, Oh, back, I don’t know, 10 years ago or so, I was been part of a major national Show, and the curator of the show is she, what is, is a force and an amazing woman in her own right. But I remember her sharing with me, you know, bring me something different, send me something different than what you normally do. This is, this is a place to try something new, and then she invited me to channel another artist’s work, and it threw me for a loop. And it really tapped into she had no idea. She had no clue, but it tapped me into, like, a couple year, I don’t know, sadness wrapped around what I was doing in that I it tapped into all the negative things that I’ve been saying about myself, to myself quietly, that I wasn’t good enough, that I needed to do things differently. I needed to paint differently, be somebody else I wasn’t good enough, that she never said that, but that’s she just pushed that that trigger for me, and it took me a couple of years, really, to get out of it. And funny enough, she’s the same person that I had a conversation with, and I call it my vomitus interruptus moment, where I was talking to her on the phone. She lived in a different state. For me, I had one of those not pouring out of my nose, hiccuping crying sessions on the phone with this professional woman. I can’t believe I’m sharing this with you guys, with you. And she literally said, Kim, I’m clearing my desk for me, for you right now, because I was just like beside myself, and I let it all out, all the insecurities, all the blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just was a cathartic moment and and it was amazing that happened with the same person who, who was slightly the devil on my shoulder, you know, even though she had no idea until then, anyway. And it was a it was all me. It had nothing to do with her. It had nothing to do with her. It was all my all my shit. Use my language, but that’s the truth. Sorry for my potty mouth, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:51

Oh no, you’re good. You’re good. It is warranted. It does feel that way, and I relate so hard to that I think I’ve. Had much like you. You know, those moments of mirroring my own pain, suffering and security onto someone else who really reflects it very clearly, even though they don’t realize it. I’ve also had those moments, and they become almost like a symbol for that pain and that frustration. And of course, I’ve also had my breakdowns about it because it I think one of the hard things too about being an artist is sometimes like, again, you think you want something, and then turns out the thing you actually want has to kind of like surface over time, and I felt that way very much about going to academic school, where I always tried so so hard to fit in. I tried so hard to, you know, fit in with my peers and be admired also by my peers. And it just never freaking worked. And it came to the point where I realized, man, I you know, it’s like a square peg in a round hole. You know, there comes a point where you just can’t force yourself to fit into a mold that just isn’t for you. And the quicker you realize, man, important, yeah, I need to just let myself use these tools that I’ve gained from, you know, learning these skills, and apply them in a way that makes me happy, and get myself out of this bubble that I’ve decided I should fit into, right? And that’s been the hardest thing to deal with. And I, you know, here in your your experience, it’s like off, man, I resonate so hard with that little devil. Yeah, oh, you’ll, you’ll never be able to do this. Or, Oh, you keep failing at this one thing that all your peers can do already. Or, like, you know, just stuff like that.

Kim Lordier: 1:01:53

Yeah, yes. Oh, stop it. You said, stop it. There’s that I just have to share this really quickly. I was working on a lecture that I had mentioned earlier, and I had a friend, Susan, who was helping me along with it. She was she’d kind of edit and stuff like that. And so self I’ve had to work on being less self deprecating verbally and also saying apologizing for everything, which is kind of a thing that I’ve done forever. I’m so much better at it. But Susan helped me, because she made me listen to this Bob Newhart one of his comedy sessions where he’s a psychiatrist, and for those folks who are listening to this and you have if, if you find yourself apologizing or consistently or being self deprecated, or find something that you’re repeating that drives yourself Crazy, check out his episode called stop it because it is hilarious. And the stop it is a is a term or a phrase that I now use for myself to help, help me stop it. I promise you guys,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:20

yeah, no, I’m gonna link it into the show notes. So are very other listeners might also check it out. I think it’s so funny because I didn’t realize that you were gonna say stop it, and I was literally just saying, like, stop it. So now I want to watch it so I can Yeah, it’s hilarious. Yeah, that’s a

Kim Lordier: 1:03:41

great way to reinforce that. And it’s, you know, psychologically, it shuts the brain down. You know, when you say, stop it, you’re, you know, it’s like, it’s like, it stops that cycle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:53

So, yeah, yeah, because it’s so easy to just get caught in that loop, yeah, it just repeats itself, yeah. And then it feeds itself too, which is awful. It’s why it’s so hard to break it. But yeah, totally. I know you’ve also given a ton of advice here, but do you have any final advice for someone out there who wants to make a living for being an artist?

Kim Lordier: 1:04:17

Um, I guess I have a couple things that I’d like to share, if that’s okay. I think, I think it’s super, super important to be professional in every element of the business side of what we do. I know that’s pretty silly to say, but having been on the receiving end of shows, and, you know, doing a little bit of volunteer work that I have done, and realizing that people don’t read their prospectuses all the way through and follow. Follow. You know what’s going to help the volunteers and the folks behind the scene that are working their tails off for you to submit your painting to a show. Just so always read and follow your prospect prospectuses. Honor the deadlines. Don’t be one of those that don’t be an artist cat where you have to be chased down to get what the folks that are working hard need to get to put the show on. I recommend be proactive about pursuing your own like articles. I was the my very first article that I had in the pastel journal, which is when I was pregnant or had just had Ryan, was came from me, because at that point, I’m so old that people weren’t writing about motherhood and being artists, that you wouldn’t find articles like that in magazines. And I approached the editor and asked if we could do, if there could be a, you know, an article written about, you know, being pregnant or and she, like, grabbed it. She said, Yeah, let’s do it. And so I was able to kind of be a part of my first article. So know that if you have an idea or you’re seeing something that’s important to you, that’s not being written about, it’s fair game to go approach an editor or say, Hey, I’ve got this idea. Write it yourself. The new ideas are always out are always out there. So again, respect the volunteers working behind the scenes. You know, I think you mentioned, you know, how to approach galleries and stuff like that. That’s a hard, kind of a hard thing. I’ve been very fortunate to have not really had to go down that path yet. I’m sure that will, that will happen in my future, but I think it’s things are so much different now. You know, going in with a portfolio, and assuming that there’s so many artists out there now and so few galleries, and they’re closing fast that you know, if you find a space that you really want to be a part of, go be a part of the community. First, go introduce yourself to the gallery and get to know what the space is all about. And for every individual artist out there, there’s an individual, individual gallery owner who has their own creative vision, and it doesn’t always mean that your work is going to fit in with their space. They’ll get to know what that is. And I have kind of some personal advice, especially now, our world is constantly changing, and I feel very strongly that happen. Happiness comes from within. It doesn’t come from likes or hearts or your followers. And I, I think it’s so important to trust your instincts, your instincts as they will lead to solid work that will then lead to doors opening down the path that you are meant to walk, not somebody else. And I think I said it earlier, but remember that there’s always another canvas to paint on.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:44

Yes, yes, I’m so so so happy that you mentioned trusting yourself, because that really ties into everything that we’ve been talking about. Because even just like you said, you know, if you lost everything in a fire, you have to trust that all of the work that you’ve done, it wasn’t just a fluke, right? It came from you, and you can do it again. And building that self trust is so important as an artist is trusting that, hey, I can figure this out. I might not know what the heck is going on? I might not know what the problem is right now, but I can trust my my skills and myself and what I’m capable of to figure it out, because Absolutely, that’s all you can really do. Yeah, absolutely won’t have all the answers, but you can try darn hard to try to get them. Yeah, and then I wanted to ask you also, because I absolutely love your work, and I think you know anyone out there should go check it out. Do you have any upcoming exhibitions or shows or workshops that you would like to tell us about?

Kim Lordier: 1:09:58

Sure, let’s see. I. I will be I just finished teaching a workshop couple weeks ago. I do about two a year, maybe sometimes three, but my next workshop will be in Boise, Idaho, and the end of September, beginning of October, and it’s through the pastel society of the West Coast. I’m really excited to get up in that neck of the woods and and play, and then I’ll be judging. There’s a plein air event in Eagle, Idaho that I’ll be judging. That event kind of during the same time. I’ve got an upcoming show that I’m very honored to be a part of in Ojai, California. It’s called Ojai Ojai Mystique at the Ojai Valley Museum, and there’s 19 nationally renowned artists that’ll be that’ll have a major studio piece and a planar piece, and that’s going to be this coming April. I think it opens the 17th and runs through the beginning of August. I think I am brand new and very excited and truly honored to be part of the planner painters of America. They’re one of the first pioneer painting groups in the United States, and they’re having a show at the Thunderbird foundation of arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, called Heart of America. And it’s let me see my notes. I wrote the notes down here, coast to coast, inspiration from America’s premier outdoor painting group, and that’ll be in May, and opens the 15th at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio. And then excited to be going back there again for a show in September with my wild women group. I’m part of seven other amazing women artists. We had a dynamite show that opened last summer at a loom gallery in Montana, and now we’re going to have our second show at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio with my my buddies. I’m going to list them, Shannon Coots, Elizabeth Robbins, Laurie McNee, Stephanie, marzella, Cindy Baier and Ramona youngquist. And I think most of them have Faso websites, so we can find, if I say their names, you can find them on Fine Art Studio online, and, yeah, I’m represented in with my glorious I galleries in Carmel at Carmel fine art, Hugh Skelly gallery in bellboy Island, which is in California, Holton frames and studio, which is in Berkeley, California, wild horse gallery in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, ILLUM gallery West in Montana, and the Thunderbird Foundation for the Arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, that’s a lot.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:29

Yeah, work, yeah, yes. And then, do you mind telling us what your website is?

Kim Lordier: 1:13:37

Oh, yes. It’s way too long to spell out, but it’s my maid, my my maiden name and my married name. It’s Kim Fancher laurier.com and it takes you to the Fine Art Studio Online website that I have. But if you just Google my name, Kim Lordy, a because of Faso, it comes right to the top of of the of the the search engine, which I’m really grateful and then I’m on Instagram and Facebook. Instagram’s K Laurier art, and then Facebook is, I think, Kim dot Laurier. So there you have it. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:20

Yeah. Well, I will also be including all your links in the show notes so people can check out your gorgeous work. And of course, if they watch the video, they will see how beautiful your work is. And I’m so grateful to have had you on the show. Kim, thank you so so much.

Kim Lordier: 1:14:34

Thank you for having me, Laura. I really I’m very honored and appreciate this time and the opportunity, and I’m excited for your personal journey down your creative path. So thank you for sharing a tiny bit of that with me, of

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:50

course, and thank you for being, honestly, a lot of inspiration that I think I really needed so good. Yeah. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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The Art of Re-Creation

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

The following piece is an excerpt from my forthcoming book The Sovereign Artist.

During a dark time when I experienced burnout, I lost my creative drive and my world went grey. I taught myself, intuitively, how to climb out of that hole and, through a slow process learned through trial-and-error, I was able to reopen my connection to my heart and soul again. My world slowly expanded and, as the veil began to lift, reality became more colorful and beautiful than I ever imaged it could be. That experience eventually led me to write The Sovereign Artist.

If one only creates, but does not re-create, the creative well will eventually run dry. You cannot constantly output. You must allow time for input. You must allow time for reflection. You must allow time for solitude. You must allow time for stillness. You must allow time for leisure.

Burnout sneaks up on you. It can be insidious because creative output is intoxicating and you will feel like you are on top of the world right up until the moment you crash. That’s what happened to me. There were, of course, subtle signs that the darkness was approaching. But, in the heat of productivity, such signs are easy to ignore.

It is the soul’s nature to give. If you ignore its needs and continually demand more creativity from it, it will give and give until it can give no more. You cannot continually take from your soul, that’s not how the soul-economy works. You must give back to your soul. You must feed it.

Learning how to re-create yourself is learning how to listen to the needs of your soul. You feed your body instinctively and you must learn to feed your soul intuitively. You must learn to recognize soul-hunger. And the things that feed your soul do not usually overlap with the way we live our modern lives, so you must feed your soul intentionally.

The burnout I experienced is a danger every artist faces and, I now know that I fell into the darkness because I had not yet learned an important lesson that all true masters must eventually learn: before you exhale, you must inhale.

There is a rhythm to nature and your soul is part of nature. You must learn to honor the natural rhythm of being a creative human being. There is a time for work. There is a time for leisure. There is a time for solitude. There is a time to be silent and a time to speak.1

Learning how to honor this rhythm is a major part of the creative path, and it is an important lesson in learning how to awaken. Modernity doesn’t teach this lesson. We worship productivity – the output phase, but we shortchange the leisure – the input phase. This is to our detriment and it is a foolish position.

All of our modern conveniences and our cult of productivity should provide us with more leisure. We live in a world that should provide more human flourishing than any era of the past. We each could live better than nobility of just a few hundred years ago. But, instead, we turned productivity into our god. We joined the cult of busyness. We decided to run faster and faster. We decided to ignore the needs of our souls. And we drown the resulting existential angst under a sea of drugs and distraction.

Modern culture has adopted the desperate creed of Boxer, the loyal workhorse in Animal Farm, who repeated his mantra until the very end: “I will work harder!”

Boxer worked himself to death, loyally serving the pigs who sold his body to a glue boiler to buy themselves whiskey.

Nietzsche foresaw our current dilemma when he said:

We labour at our daily work more ardently and thoughtlessly than is necessary to sustain our life because it is even more necessary not to have leisure to stop and think. Haste is universal because everyone is in flight from himself.

However, if we were wise, we would stop this “flight from ourselves” and, instead, we’d turn around and face ourselves. We’d face our angels and our demons. To do this, we must stop succumbing to the mental violence of perpetual activity and turn toward leisure.

If we were wise, we’d be actively expanding our leisure time. Both Plato and Aristotle considered leisure to be the highest good and a prerequisite for the achievement of the highest form of human flourishing, eudaemonia. What the wise ancient Greeks called eudaemonia overlaps with what we have been calling awakening.

What, then, is leisure? It is not “relaxation.” It is not “self-improvement.” It is not “vacation.” Spending your time binging Netflix is not leisure, it is distraction. It is the avoidance of leisure.

The Ancient Greeks used the word scholē (σχολή) for leisure, from which we derive the English word school. For them, leisure was a time for learning, for education. The Latin word for leisure originates from licēre, meaning “to be permitted” or “to be allowed,” reflecting the concept of having the freedom to do something. When we engage in leisure, it is a time for us to learn something and to do something. To learn and do what?

Leisure is the act of learning, from your soul, who you truly are and then doing what your soul truly needs. The learning is your soul’s gift to you. The doing is your gift back to your soul; it is the feeding; the giving back. Leisure is a time to re-create your Self; to liberate yourself. If afterwards, you understand who you truly are a bit better, it was leisure. If you don’t, it was something else.

For Aristotle, leisure consisted of activities such as contemplation, philosophical conversation, listening to music, cultivation of virtue, artistic pursuits, and related soul-inspiring activities.

Nietzsche, too, understood the importance of leisure, writing, “Active men are generally wanting in the higher activity…in this regard they are lazy…The active [men] roll as the stone rolls, in obedience to the stupidity of the laws of mechanics.”

When the nobility of yesteryear engaged in leisure, they didn’t doom-scroll on their phones. They practiced the liberal arts which, in modern terminology, are better called the liberating arts. The liberating arts are the activities which will liberate your true Self. These are the activities that allow you to see through your programming and find the Truth within. They are the very activities Aristotle considered to be scholē — leisure. The liberating arts are the methods by which we awaken. You can see why Plato, Aristotle and Nietzsche considered leisure to be mandatory to those who wish to be born again into the full power and purpose of their humanity. The true artist must become such a person.

Real freedom requires the freedom to say “no” to the constant tyranny of the task list; freedom to say “no” to busyness and “yes” to meaning. Being hard to reach is a feature, not a bug. You must have time to be silent; to ponder; to be unavailable.

If practice is honing your ability to play the instrument of your soul, then leisure is the spiritual maintenance of the instrument. Just as a muscle grows during recovery rather than during the lift itself, artistic mastery deepens during periods of renewal. You are the instrument. Practice stresses you. Leisure restores and refines you. Creation is the period when your soul flies. Re-creation is the period when your soul grows.

Therefore, the final thing we must each learn, to become a master, is the art of renewal; the art of re-creating ourself; the art of leisure.

Julia Cameron, in her seminal book, The Artist’s Way, presents her liberating path for the creative person. She proposes only two activities that are non-negotiable: The weekly artist date and the morning pages. These two activities honor the circadian rhythms of our soul. The weekly artist date provides scheduled recurring time for leisure; for input; for solitude; for contemplation. And the morning pages provide daily time for output, for creation of a sort.

Actually, the morning pages can serve as both input and output functions and are uniquely valuable. They serve as a time of reflection and contemplation and yet, often, the soul produces insights during such journaling that, especially for writers, eventually work their way into finished pieces. By balancing creative input and output, we can deepen our connection to our soul’s needs and avoid burnout.

True masters understand that the creative life is a rhythm. It is not all output. Inhalation precedes exhalation. In fact, this is the universal rhythm. Yin and Yang. Contraction and expansion. Going within, and sharing without. All work and no play makes Jack an empty burned out boy.

If you do burn out, there are many things you can do, not only to discover your true Self, your essence, but also to reconnect with your Muse.

If you are looking for ideas on how to do this; how to engage in leisure, I have provided a comprehensive resource of ideas for renewing your soul — re-creating yourself — in Appendix I: Methods of Re-Creation. The methods I outline in Appendix I are the methods I taught myself that I mentioned at the opening of this chapter. They are the methods I intuitively discovered and utilized during my own dark night of the soul.

While the comprehensive list appears in the appendix, I’d like to briefly mention two of the most important needs of your soul: solitude and nature…

To be continued in my next post.

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PS - This is one of the themes I explore in my forthcoming book, The Sovereign Artist: The Liberating Power of the Creative Act. If interested, you can join the waitlist here.

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Today’s Article

The following article was written by Debra Keirce, a regular contributing author to The BoldBrush Letter.

Is it Inspiration or Espionage?

How much have you “borrowed” lately? Have you ever engaged in full-blown artistic espionage?

I’m talking about the high-stakes stuff.

• Entering a gallery opening with the calculated intent of grilling a successful artist on their studio logistics

• Visiting a free demonstration, not to see the artist create, but to have them give you critiques and advice that will catapult your career

• Attending a workshop not to learn, but to collect recipes and formulas you can implement

• Purchasing an artwork with the sole intention of reverse-engineering it

Have you pulled off any of these heists?

Of course you have. We’re all looking for the shortcut, the skeleton key, the hidden map. We’re often taught that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and the fastest way to a successful career. But is that true? Is it more lucrative to be a student or a spy?

I am not a 17th Century Master

In the 1600’s, artists often borrowed from each other. Look and you will see they painted dresses and curtains with the exact same fold patterns. From their subject matter, it appears they all owned the same chandelier, and the same dog.

I personally love the work of Gerrit Dou. The man was a master of moody, low-key interiors and whispering hues. Me? I lean into a bold explosion of color that screams for attention on my easel.

I recently spent weeks forcing myself into Mr. Dou’s world, trying to compose a painting he would approve of. I learned a lot, but I also nearly lost my mind before admitting the truth. I am not a Dou. I adore his work, but trying to inhabit his creative soul was like wearing shoes three sizes too big. You cannot “steal” a style and make it work if it isn’t aligned with who you are.

We aren’t photocopiers. We are unique, chaotic, animated paint splatters. Rarely, in my experience, is a work of art I admire aligned with who I am as an artist. I can learn from those works, and I can copy those works, but I cannot honestly create pieces exactly like the artists themselves would.

When the Spy Becomes the Target

I’ve been on both sides of the canvas. I’ve watched students launch entire series based on a single idea I shared. I’ve had “friends” approach my collectors, gallery owners and curators behind my back, with works they obviously created using mine as inspiration.

But the strangest part? The resentment. I’ve actually angered people by refusing to hand over the secret sauce for free.

I’m happy to answer simple questions, but I won’t give a private workshop outside a teaching venue. Not only is it unfair to my paying students, but I can’t answer complex questions without hours of context. And half the time, I’m still experimenting! If I haven’t worked the bugs out of a technique, I’m not going to hand you a faulty map.

Apparently, “no answer” is an offensive answer. Some people assume I’m sitting on a secret stash of gold and refusing to share. They get snarky. It’s a little creepy, honestly. And in the end, I don’t think it is as valuable to them as they wish.

The Truth About the “Secret Sauce”

Here is my reality. Stealing wholesale rarely works. It’s like copying answers off the person sitting next to you during a driver’s test, only to discover that you are both taking different tests. (No, I never actually did that... Thought about it though!)

Sure, borrow a sales tactic or a composition trick, but if it doesn’t resonate with your soul, it won’t impress your audience. At the end of the day, espionage might give you a quick thrill, but true successes comes from owning your unique journey. Laugh at the flops, celebrate the wins, and remember that the best “secrets” are the ones you discover yourself.

Continue practicing with intention. Work through the torturous learning periods. Keep at it until it feels invigorating and oddly addictive.

What about you? Spill your funniest art spy story in the comments. Let’s turn this into a confessional!

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PS — Editor’s Note: Please support artists and help us get more exposure for the artists featured in this newsletter by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁, or by leaving a comment. The more engagement we get, the more widely these images get shown. Help us support human artists and push back against the encroachment of AI!

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Debra Keirce
www.DebKArt.com

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We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).