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This piece originally appeared on my personal Substack, Clinsights, here. It has been edited and improved for publication in The FASO Way.

Editor’s Note: In two days, this post will be locked and is available only to paid members because we don’t want this duplicate content on the open web in a way that might draw traffic away from the original post. You can always read the entire post here.

If you wish to comment on this piece, we are accepting comments on the original post here.

The Mystical Song of Creation in Starry Night That Inspires Man to Go to the Moon

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

On April 1st, millions of people tuned in to watch as NASA launched its new Artemis II rocket, which carries four astronauts bound for the moon, the biggest “star” in the night sky, for the first time in fifty-three years.

Man has always looked into the night sky and been overcome with a longing; a remembrance; a Desire to reach for the stars: A Heavenly Desire.

Desire, in its truest sense, is from the Latin de sidera — of the stars. True Desire is not of the earth. Earthly desires are more appropriately called appetites, but The True Desire is a deep longing to ascend to the stars and rejoin the Divine.

Even the word heaven, as Jesus uses it in the Gospels, is more accurately translated as sky or cosmos.

In The Chronicals of Narnia, stars are presented as conscious beings. Eustace, in The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, talks with a star named Ramadu:

“In our world,” said Eustace, “a star is a huge ball of flaming gas.”

Ramandu replies, “Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of.”

Eustace’s description of stars as flaming balls of gas is not false, but it is incomplete. Stars are not mute. They sing to us.

In our world, just as in Narnia, the stars are up there, in the heavens, singing to us, reaching out toward us, calling us with that ancient song that we all long to rejoin; a song composed of light. It is a song they sang, patiently, for eons before their melody entered our mind through our eyes.

This singing of the stars is echoed in Van Gogh’s Starry Night. In it, one can see this primordial oscillation driving the movement of life throughout the famous landscape.

The sky is alive in a great, sweeping melody—spiraling and dancing. The stars aren’t depicted as mere “balls of gas.” They appear as blazing vibrations, broadcasting their voices outward, inviting creation itself to sing. In the foreground, the dark flame of the cypress rises, like a rocket, in its longing to join them. In the background, the mountains rumble with the low, steady gravity of bass. And the village, nestled in the great song’s bosom, breaths in and breaths out with the rhythm of life.

Everything participates. Nothing is inert. The whole canvas lives.

And there, in the upper right corner, is the queen of the night stars, the moon, the heavenly choir director, leading the song with her warm, ethereal voice.

This is the musica universalis—the music of the spheres—made visible. This is nature as revelation. This is where God is encountered; the moving, wild, luminous God of Life.

And then we notice the church.

It sits at the village center, its windows dark, unlit, silent – lifeless. While everything else vibrates with life, the church feels sealed off — closed to the song that pervades the rest of the world.

The contrast speaks for itself, serving as a subtle critique of our religious misunderstandings, hinting at the truth that we find God everywhere — except in the artificial, idolatrous boxes we insist on stuffing Him-Her into.

But we have always preferred gods we can manage, haven’t we?

Those kinds of gods stay indoors and follow rules. We forget the truth that The Mystery is everything except what man thinks it is. The living God cannot be contained, and The Kingdom does not arrive in straight lines or tidy boxes. It is unveiled only in the song of life where rhythm, unpredictability, and movement prevail. God dwells where Life dwells.

“Your religion is not the church you belong to, but the cosmos you live inside of.”

— GK Chesterton

The stars remind us of this. They will not squeeze themselves into our boxes. Instead, they sing. The Logos sings continuously, gifting us with the ever-changing possibility of the present. The Song gifts us time as a canvas upon which we are invited to paint something creative. We are invited to create, in the image of the divine vine, of which we are all branches.

C.S Lewis knew this and Van Gogh saw this truth. The song plays evermore, calling out, to you, calling out your true name, kindling the one True Desire in your heart. A desire born of the stars — de sidera.

This Desire exhorts you to see and to hear; for the only way to create harmony; to create Art, is to tune into the one song with your spiritual eyes and ears so that you hear the entire symphony that is waiting for you. It’s waiting for you to step away from the scales of dogma, and to, instead, start playing your soul’s unique harmony. That is the Desire you feel when you gaze into the night sky.

And the moment you begin to play is moment the whole symphony has been waiting upon.

Godspeed, Artemis II.

May our prayers, and our shared song, buoy you upon a wave that carries you forth into the cosmic symphony.

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PS — If you’d like a print of Starry Night, we have it available in many different formats, framed or unframed, in the FASO Print Gallery. Should you desire Van Gogh’s masterpiece for your own walls, ordering it from us would help support what we are doing.

Browse Starry Night Print Options

Van Gogh’s Starry Night — Prints Available

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We believe that being an artist is, at its core, an act of sovereignty in a world that tries to keep you permanently indentured. That is one reason that the name of my forthcoming book is The Sovereign Artist.

The Sovereign Artist learns to listen inward where truth is found; to listen to her soul.

“Artists are people who are not at all interested in the facts—only in the truth. You get the facts from outside. The truth you get from inside” — Ursula K. Le Guin

You, as a Sovereign Artist, have learned to follow what moves you, even when it does not immediately make sense, and then you engage in the miracle of giving the formless form. For The Sovereign Artist, this process becomes an authentic way of living, not just a way of working.

While we create from our souls, the reality of the market-economy in which we live presses in upon us like the trash compactor scene in Star Wars. And, unless we wish simply to make art for ourselves, we can’t ignore it. We must, therefore, consider how to live authentically in the marketplace. We all know that art is meant to be shared, and, in the modern world, that means offering it for sale. At this point, a serious question, a conundrum really, must be addressed:

How does your artwork find the people it belongs with?

For most artists today, the answer to that question means posting each newly finished piece on social media and waiting to see what happens.

Think about that. Your art enters a soul-less system that was not built with art in mind. Visibility is determined by an algorithm designed to maximize rage and does not care for the depth of what you have made. If it enrages, it engages. Sure, a few people may see it, but most will not. These networks long ago broke their promise to show your posts to all of your followers. None of us these platforms. So why do we continue to post?

The experience of social media in 2026 is inconsistent enough that it becomes frustrating and difficult to know what works and what doesn’t. It’s designed to maximize their profits and keep you coming back.

I think most artists feel this way. There is a sense that, when posting Art, something meaningful was offered and that the response (on social media) does not match the offering.

It feels like a small version of selling out in that our soul knows we are violating the Biblical proverb:

“Do not cast your pearls before swine.”

Swine, in this case, is the algorithmic choices, cheap advertisements, and engagement-bait to which most people on social media are addicted.

But you hold your nose and do it anyway because this is now accepted as part of “the process.” The problem, for Sovereign Artists, is that these tools do not only serve us, but also, over time, we serve our tools. Our tools shape who we become and how we see the world and even, insidiously, how we relate to our own artwork over time. Remember how people started dancing like clowns with their paintings on Instagram?

The difficulty you face is not a lack of ability. That is not why people don’t respond. It is that you have allowed the path between your work and the people who care about it to be placed inside platforms that simply are not oriented toward that kind of connection. There is a malicious middleman between you art your fans. Meta’s mission statement “to build the future of human connection” is simply a lie. If they were honest, their real mission statement would say, “to addict people to watching Meta platforms, so that we may steal their attention, soul and ultimately, life for our profit.” People complain about billionaires while posting on the platforms that make them billionaires.

What artists and art lovers are actually seeking is simple:

Artists want their artwork to be seen by people who want to see it; by people who understand art is sacred; by people who resonate with the ideas in the art itself. And collectors want to see art work presented simply, and in a timely fashion, as the artists they follow release new art. It really is that simple.

A collector told me that what she really wants to see from artists is the following:

“What I would really like to see is an informal news blast of new work…I want it short and sweet.”

And there is an easy way to make that happen.

When you upload a new painting to your website, you are placing it where your work already lives. Your website becomes a growing body of work to which you can point people. From there, your art can be shared directly with the people who have chosen to follow what you do. All you have to do is give your followers a way to sign up for new art alerts on your website and then, send an email to those people as you finish each new artwork. But you must be consistent and you must do it every time. Which is where most artists fail. Consistency is always hard when you have to do it manually.

This consistency problem is what the Artful Alerts feature inside every FASO Artist Website solves.

With FASO, when someone visits your website, they can choose to receive alerts about your new work. That choice matters, because it establishes a direct relationship. It is not based on interruption, persuasion or god-forbid, a tech company’s algorithm. It is based on the art lover’s expressed interest in your art.

Each time you add a new piece to your website, FASO sends a simple email to those subscribers. The artwork appears clearly, with a backlink to your site. It gives your fans a way to provide feedback as a “like” or a comment but – and this is critical – that feedback is for your eyes only.

This is an intimate moment between you, your art, and your prospective collector. This process does not require you to design campaigns or manage lists. And it does not ask you to shift your attention away from the work itself to learn the latest hoops Meta has decided you must jump through as if you were a trained circus animal.

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You make the work, and the people who have asked to see it are informed that it exists.

Over time, this creates continuity and a relationship as people begin to recognize your work in their inbox. They develop a familiarity that cannot be rushed — in contrast to social media where everything is always rushed.

This kind of steady exposure, over time, is what actually turns prospects into collectors because they have had the chance to encounter your work in a way that feels natural and, most importantly, human. They can reply to your emails and ask you questions, and you can reply with answers, sparking a real conversation, in private.

This matters, because the calmness of this process, and the ownership of it allow you, the artist, to be in control and maintain your authenticity; your sovereignty.

A website is a place where your work can exist without competition for attention. It allows your work to be seen in its own context. When that space is connected to a system that carries your work directly to interested viewers, the relationship between you and your audience becomes more intimate and stable.

In the modern world, this is a different way of working. But, for those of us who came of age in the 20th century we recall this older, more human, way of working. It was better. It is better. And, at FASO our goal is to always provide you tools that provide you the benefit of both worlds: the more human way of working combined with modern technology.

Such systems allows you to build an audience over time without being forced to step outside the natural rhythm of your art practice. Such systems allow you to retain your sovereignty.

You should join us in this more human vision for the future. If you are interested, we’ve put together a special spring deal to save you 52% on your first year. Details are in the postscript below.

Get Started with FASO for Free

PS — We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and with whom you can talk. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

Get Started with FASO for Free

Get Started with FASO for Free

Learn the magic of marketing with us here at FASO!
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Get over 50% off your first year on your artist website with FASO:
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Join our next FASO Show Live!
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For today’s episode, some of our past guests share the creative “aha” moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to “find a style.” They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts—reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing—as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Episodes mentioned on this episode:

• 62 Aaron Schuerr

• 77 Aaron Westerberg

• 79 William Schneider

• 118 Shuang Li

• 129 Brian Bateman

• 137 Chris Krupinski

• 139 Jeff Legg

• 144 Christine Code

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up.

Aaron Schuerr: 0:07

So that was like a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project.

Chris Krupinski: 0:13

But later, when I found this, was like, this is the hugest aha moment.

Christine Code: 0:19

That was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:25

Now, before I announce our episode for today, there are some updates about the podcast that I need to inform our listeners about. The podcast. Name will change from the BoldBrush show to the FASO podcast. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush Over the years, we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes confusion for most people, so to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO. Now on to the show. Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a boldbrush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, some of our past guests share their creative aha moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to find a style. They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts, reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Aaron Schuerr: 1:52

Well, like I said before, the newsletter is one of the key, key areas. And then I can add to that a couple of occasionally I’ll do just fun projects. And these really started during the pandemic, you know, because everything was all the galleries were closing, and I thought it was going to be like 2008 all over again, you know, where, you know, galleries are closed, shows are closed, all my workshops are canceled. What am I going to do? And so I started off, I just did a video sale and market it first to the news newsletter subscribers. And that did well, because I was just thinking about, like, let’s put together some projects that just get me through, if I can just get through a month, you know, keep us from getting kicked out of our house or whatever. And then I did. I called it a plein air marathon. And so that one, I did a painting a day, or every week day. I took the weekends off, eight by 10, and until I got to 26 paintings. And so I would go out in the morning and do the painting come back, and then I’d write something up, the newsletter and and that was something where it was just the newsletter subscribers had the first chance of buying it. So I saw them all unframed at that point. I mean, I sold them all for $400 each, which is way under retail, but they’re just unframed, you know, on the spot paintings. But each one, you know, I have a little story with it about what happened that day. And then what I could do is, then I put on Instagram and Facebook. Hey, this is the painting I did. It sold. But if you want to have a crack at the next one, you got to sign up for my newsletter. And so that kind of brought people to the newsletter. And again, I like when I started this project that well, one, it’ll get me out painting will be a good discipline. It’ll get me out painting every day, and then two that, if I just sell a handful of them, you know, get through another month, and I ended up selling all of them. And I ended up having to I did some extras, because there were people that were like, Hey, I tried three times or four times to get one of your paintings, and someone was always there first. So I was like, All right, I’ll do, you know, I’ll do another one for you. So that was, like, a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project, one that I’m just about to do, that I’ve done the last three years. I call it the 12 paintings of Christmas. And it’s six by eight, six by eight or eight by eight paintings. I’ll start December 1, go through December 12. And they’re so they’re little ones, and I frame them because I figure it’s Christmas, so then it’d be nice for people out frame there. I. Nicely framed, but they’re, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re at a price that’s lower than than my normal retail so I’m really careful, though, about like with projects like that, where something is less than, you know, it’s less than a gallery price, that it is a specific project, you know, like the this is, I did the plein air marathon. I ended up only doing it once, and keep meaning to do it again. But this is for this specific project, so it’s different than my other work. I think that’s important, because, one, you don’t want to start undervaluing your work by, you know, seeming like you’re desperate and and then also to have the good relationships with the galleries, because if a gallery finds out like, Wait, you’re selling stuff out of your studio for half the price. No, I’m doing, you know, I’m doing a project that’s very different. I don’t I’m not putting six by eight paintings in galleries, and it’s the set project. So for me, I the nice surprise with those projects is that they were good from a marketing standpoint, but they’re also really good from an artistic standpoint, like the 12 paintings the Christmas helps me plan what studio paintings I want to do in the next year, because I get, you know, I try them out in this small format, and there’s a few of them that I’m like, ooh, that’s an idea I want to go back to. So it’s a nice transition sometimes, between plein air and planning studio paintings. So it helps me out that way. But yeah, finding fun projects like that and making them, I think making them exclusive for like, Hey, this is going out to the you’re you’re a newsletter subscriber. That means you, you’ve chosen to follow what I’m doing, so I want to reward that with, you know, a project like this,

Aaron Westerberg: 7:09

Yeah, no, it was slow. It was over a few years, for sure, because I didn’t know what I was doing, you know, I didn’t know what I was doing. I was just, I just wanted to be a fine artist. I wanted to be a gallery artist, you know. And so I was like, What do I have to do to, you know, to do this? And I just wanted everything to culminate to where it would help facilitate that, you know. So working at borders didn’t really facilitate that, you know, too much, you know. So as soon as I cut that out, I did, but, but, yeah, you know, you know, I think some of when you teach, like, you know, a lot of times I would get, you know, because my drawings were, they were, they’re pretty decent drawings when I was teaching, because I would teach life drawing, and a lot of times I would get people to take my class, and they would see me, and, you know, I was like, you know, 20 something years old, and like, Oh, you’re just a kid, you know, like, I thought you’d be like, an old man or something. And, and I’m like, I think, but some of the best teachers are the ones that are, you know, just kind of learning. And, you know, can do the things, but everything is kind of new and fresh to them. They’re not like, crusted over and, you know, they can actually express the ideas that maybe someone will just be like you just got to go through a million drawings to figure it out. So, you know, draw teaching. I think almost anyone can do that, you know, early on, you know, I think that’s a really good way to start and, you know, it, it doubles down on what you know. You’re teaching somebody you know what you know, and so you have to vocalize it and basically explain it to somebody who has no clue. And it’s also good, I have some good teaching stories, because I’ve taught for a long time, and I’ve taught some, I mean, I taught a guy, I’m positive he was in the witness look relocation program. I mean, I’m positive, you know, this guy was, like, total sopranos guy, and he had a pinky ring that was, like as big as my thumb on his pinky, and you could just smash me in any time, if you want to. He was humongous. But, yeah, I just so teaching is it’s interesting, it’s fun. But you learn more. You get better at your craft by teaching. So I think that is, is a great way to supplement your income. And then, like, the thing I want to say with social media is, you know, it’s, it’s easy to get bogged down in it and just kind of be negative towards it, but it’s like a great opportunity for artists right now. I know tons of artists, and I’m sure most of the viewers do also that just sell, you know, directly or through their Instagram or whatever. They don’t have a gallery, you know, and I. And it’s, it’s also, you know, I think we all have a degree of creativity, and you just have to kind of put it into the into your posts, you know, you, you know, like a lot of people, do the same things over and over, like varnishing the paintings or whatever. I mean, I do that, but, you know, but you just be creative with it, you know, when I when I first got that, like, Aha moment when I and I didn’t get it, the aha moment until after it happened. But what I did is, for that studio sale, I laid out a whole bunch of paintings on my studio floor, and I took a picture of it, and I’m like, I’m gonna have a studio sale, and this, all these are going to be here, and frames and all kinds of stuff. And then people started emailing me that picture back and circling the paintings, like, how much is this one? How much? Like a lot of people, and I’m like, Oh, wow, this is really. This really works, you know, just just kind of organic. I’m not trying to sell individual painting. I’m just kind of showing them what I’m doing, and it worked great. Like I said, I sold almost everything before the actual opening of the studio, sale the physical opening. So I think it’s just a matter of putting your creativity into the marketing side of your paintings, and it can be anything, you know, it can be anything. There’s tons of ways to do it, you know, stuff that’s not been done yet, stuff that’s been done with your own little twist on it. It can be anything, but it’s, you know, when you sell your stuff yourself, you don’t have to give a percentage to the gallery. You know, it’s, it’s very nice. It’s very nice. And you know that, like a lot of galleries, don’t share information, like, who bought your painting, so, so, you know, you get, you develop a relationship with that person. And a lot of times those relationships last years, right? They continue to purchase from you. So you know, it’s, it’s good. And you I mean, I, like no one who has my paintings, you know, I enjoy that a lot. And they send you a picture of it on their wall or whatever. It’s so gratifying, you know, so, so, yeah, that is, that’s a really good side of kind of social media and being able to market yourself and be, you know, be a living artist today.

William Schneider: 12:27

Don’t try to find your own voice. And I’d say that because that is one of the pieces of advice that was passed on to me by Bill parks, and he was 100% right. I think that if you just study, become curious about the world, curious about everything. You will gravitate towards certain themes, certain ideas, certain ways of expressing things, style or voice. I think is nothing more than people’s habitual mistakes. In other words, if somebody Okay, Modigliani making these elongate or El Greco making these elongated figures, maybe he had an issue with proportion, but it became a style, you know, and because in art we you cannot paint what we see. What we see is light, light rays hitting the object, bouncing off the object, going into our retina, being projected upside down on nerve endings and our eyeballs in the back of them and going into the brain and being interpreted as as whatever. But in that process, every step of it, you’re losing information, and so the information is filtered through our own verbal constructs and prejudices. I mean, human beings, including artists, talk to themselves incessantly without we never shut up, you know. And so the internal dialog, we can either try to harness it and use it, or we can fall victim to it. And what I mean by that is, you know, a lot of my students, you know, will express their internal dialog. They’ll make it external. And it’s kind of, oh, I started too late. I’ll never be any good. I just don’t get this temperature business. I don’t understand this. Maybe I should take up, go off. I was better at golf, but not really that good. I was like, a 19 handicap, but, and they’re doing saying all of these things, a useful dialog would be, okay, I don’t like this. What don’t I like? Is it too light? Is it too dark? Is it too warm? Is. It too cool, is it too sharp? Is it too soft? Is it too green, or is it too gray? You know, if you ask yourself sort of these paired questions, then you can come up with useful answers. And to circle back to style, Bill parks told me, do not try to find your own style. And then in my own research, I ran across a little, I don’t remember, the excerpt from a letter or somebody recording advice you received from Sargent. John Singer, Sargent about, you know, I want to become a great portrait artist. And Sargent told him, No, don’t try to become a great portrait artist, try to become a great artist, and then you can do portraits. And that’s what Sargent Did you know obvious by his body of work throughout time. And you know, so if you just try to be a great artist, you try to be the best that you can be at the things that interest you, eventually your style will will find you. Yeah, I don’t think I have a style particularly, but then I’ve had people say, oh, you know, I could I recognized your painting right off the bat, really, you know? But it’s, I’m just trying to be honest to the scene that’s in front of me as filtered through my own internal movie, you know, generally, like the anecdote I told you about the persecuted woman. If my best paintings are paintings where it’s not model Sitting in Chair. It’s Romeo sitting at at her mirror, pining from her lost look. It’s, it’s like a movie. And so then I started, start illustrating that movie. It’s that internal dialog, and that’s what I circle back to, that people you’re going to talk to yourself anyway might as well say something that’s useful.

Chris Krupinski: 17:01

Yeah, I actually think I didn’t know what or how powerful the value, the value pattern, or the value scale, should be in the painting for quite a long time. So I always wondered why my painting doesn’t really look right or look good. I also blame you know my color wasn’t right or the detail. I didn’t really know this how to paint this little thing, etc. But later, when I found this like this is the hugest aha moment, you would say, oh, that’s because my value is wrong. Sometimes the process the word saying the value does all the work, but the color gets all the credit. We all know that right? How, how I actually find out and helped myself to improve on the awareness of values is you could simply turn your painting into black white, then instantly you will know, and you compare to the pros or the paintings you admire, you do the same thing, you know, take a photo of that painting. Compare these two, black and white, instantly you will know, oh, that’s why the other painting is so good or so powerful. You know, it’s because the value is correct. Even like the piece as Impressionism. Piece colors everywhere. You couldn’t really realize it. But when you turn it into the black, white. You will see it

Laura Arango Baier: 18:43

at FASO. We inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s boldbrushshow.com. The FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career, thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist’s website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seeing. The right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Brian Bateman: 20:14

I will go back and review perspective. I will go back and review my basic drawing skills. Teaching helps me to go back to those basic drawing skills. So I would recommend, you know, I’d recommend teaching too, because for those of you who have taught, that really, really helps you get back to core basics. Because you’re you’re trying to teach that again to your students, and in teaching that to your students, you’re re teaching that to yourself. And then you’re also learning to communicate, which sometimes my wife says, I have a problem doing. So if you learn to communicate better and get it across to do the student, and you have that aha moment, or they have that aha moment. It makes you feel good you’ve gotten, you’ve got across to them, and that that’s very cool. But back to the core. That helps with the core, at least for me to revisit that

Chris Krupinski: 21:21

I paint every single day. Back when I decided it was going to be important to me to to be a professional artist, I made a commitment to myself, and this is when I still had kids at home, I made a commitment to myself that I would paint at the minimum of two hours a day, no matter what. So Christmas Eve would find me wrapping gifts and then pulling my paints out for two hours. Because I I am 100% sure that the only way you are going to get better is to put the time in. And I so no, aha. Moment happens. It’s like watching your kids grow. Never once did I ever say aha, they grew two inches, because you don’t see that unless you look back, and it just grows slowly and it progresses to where you’re going. And I so no, but when I do look back, I do see tremendous changes, you know, and growth and and whatever. And I just attribute that to time being put in. And so the more time you put in, you it will slowly, it will slowly change and hopefully go to the better.

Jeff Legg: 22:57

Well, let’s see. I wrote down some things that I think might help. Yeah, I guess probably the biggest thing was that, realizing that you can’t really copy color. I mean, color is very relative. It looks, you know, one color looks different next to another color next to another color, and the color is so relative, you could paint anything in any color, and it would as long as the value relationships were were good and correct, that the color doesn’t matter. So I don’t get real hung up on trying to reproduce an exact color. In fact, I will push colors where I want them to be. I mean, after all, we’re dealing with paint, and you can only do so much with paint. Sometimes you have to exaggerate things just to get across the emphasis of a certain color that you want to focus on. So, you know, I put a lot more, a lot more practice into value, you know, relationships, because that’s really the most important thing. So that was a, that was a pretty big thing to realize I didn’t have to be, you know, I’m not a I’m not a camera, you know, I’m not even trying to be a camera. I’m trying to, you know, paint something that looks I want to paint whatever I’m painting to be more than what it is, you know, it’s be more. Even what a camera would capture. So that means taking some liberties, which is a good was a really good segue to one thing that’s I’ve done for about the past 15 years or so is I paint quite often. A lot of it’s from imagination, or a combination of, you know what I’m looking at and my imagination. So I find a lot of freedom in doing work from memory, imagination. And I really, really recommend highly that people work from memory. Is you know more than they do you know. Working from your memory or your imagination, that’s sort of the same thing you are forced to you’re you’re going to force yourself to find out what you really know. Because what you really know is you know should be able to come out as a memory or as your imagination. And the more you practice and exercise your imagination, I think the better artists will be we’re, you know, as a child, our imaginations are much more pliable, and I think we use it more often. And as we get older, we sort of, you know, lose our childlike ability in that way. So I try to practice that. I’ve done a lot of paintings. Still I totally from made up, and you would never know. It shouldn’t matter. I mean, really, in some ways, those paintings are maybe more truthful than trying to, you know, exactly copy what I’m looking at, because they’re, they’re from me, you know, they’re not locked into just, you know, what I’m looking at. You’re kind of an expression. Then the another thing, as far as technique, that was a discovery that has helped me a lot is I’m in love with surface texture. I a painting isn’t a painting unless it has beautiful surface texture, you know. So in my that’s just my opinion, but I like to build up textures and patina and glazes and using regular oil paint, oil paint, even if you add mediums that you know to help speed the drying, they still it takes a day or several days to really be thoroughly dry, if not months, and you certainly can’t really glaze a painting that’s not thoroughly dry. So I discovered alkaline oils, which was a fast drawing oil paint. And depending on the humidity level and and the thickness of the paint, everything, it’ll dry, you know, anywhere from it’ll be pretty darn dry in two or three hours or or overnight for sure, three or four days it’s it’s completely cured out. So that has helped me speed up my process a lot. Then the cool thing about alkids too, is they they all dry at the same speed. They can be mixed into regular oils. You can start a painting with alkyd and end it with regular oils. Or you can do the whole thing with alkid. It’s just a beautiful for me. It’s a beautiful balance, because I can, I would say I would speed up my process by weeks by using alkids, at least in the beginning stages. If not, you know, the entire painting. These paintings are all out, good. Uh, and it is, it’s, don’t misunderstand, it is an oil paint. It’s just a fast drying oil paint. It’s not acrylic. Acrylic dries too fast for me, and it doesn’t have the same feel as oil paint. So anyway, yeah, the using alkaline oils is, I know it’s unconventional. There’s not a lot of artists that really do that, but that’s been a big thing for me. I can, you know, I can do a painting, you know, average size, still life, you. Do all the glazing, everything I want to do to make it that surface quality, the texture and everything. Let that dry, say, a week, and then it’s dry enough to varnish, you know, get it framed and send it, send it off to a gallery. Whereas, if I were using regular oils, I might have, you know, that might be more like a three month process, if not longer, I would say, like I said, I’ve always take a commission work, and commissions kind of drag you down, especially if the client is really prescriptive about what they want. And of course, now that I’m showing in all of these galleries and selling, you know, the work that does come from my heart, I can be a little bit more picky and choosy on the Commission’s I accept. But recently I just commissions just are pressure, no matter what. By recently devised a system that helps alleviate some of that pressure. So let’s say a client asked me for you know, they say, Oh, I love your sunsets with the peachy tones, but I need a 40 by 40. I will say, Okay, I’m going to paint you two or 340 by 40s with the peachy tones for you to choose from. And that has been really great for all of us. It takes the pressure off me to get it right in that one shot. It takes the pressure off the client to be stuck with one, the one and only painting you do for them. It takes, you know, they have choices now. I mean, what’s better than that? And also, whatever gallery this commission is through, I’m getting them all three paintings, and the client picks one, and the gallery has more stock it can hang the other two on the wall and sell them. So it’s a win, win for everybody. And you know what, once in a while, the client will say, Well, you know what, I have room for two. So they actually take two. So the you know, that’s just a bonus. So that’s how I’ve been, how I’ve been dealing with commissions lately. And it’s it’s been working out really well. It really takes the pressure off, off everybody. Um, because the more parameters a client puts around a painting, the less free I am able to make those choices. And sometimes it just ends up in a jumbled mess because their vision doesn’t match my vision, and I can’t take the painting to where, you know, I want to put out my best work. So if I offer three options that way, I can make my three best paintings with the peachy sunset colors and, and they have the choice. And, oh, and yes. So if you are showing in a gallery, just a piece of advice, and you get a random email and somebody asked for a commission. Always ask that collector if they found your work in in a gallery, or did they just find you through a random internet search? How they found you? Because if they saw your work in the gallery, first, you should run that commission through the gallery, it’s just good business. It establishes trust with your gallery, and it just builds that good business relationship with your gallery, so you should always honor that. But yeah, anyways, that’s that was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions. Now, you know, it takes a little bit longer, but the galleries are always wanting work, so it kind of kills two birds with one stone, and it’s that it’s been great that way.

Kim Lordier: 33:29

So I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realized that it’s really truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. You know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like knock on wood. You know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happened to my beautiful space that I love to be in. I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know, and I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be. Able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody. Or, you know, that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here. But it’s just that I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand, and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends, and there was just nothing greater than that for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:34

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The FASO Way.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

Feature Article:

Why Museums Fail When They Forget the Muses

I asked ChatGPT why people build museums, and it said two things — for the preservation of history and culture and for inspiration through exposure to new ideas. Both things are true, of course, but there is much, much more.

The word “museum” comes from the Greek “Μουσεῖον” (Mouseion), which referred to a seat or “temple of the Muses.” A museum is a place dedicated to one’s encounter with the Muses — the nine daughters of Zeus who bestowed knowledge and creativity on mortals.

The whole point of a museum is to reveal how someone encountered the Muses. When we walk into a museum and don’t see that encounter, it’s not a museum. In a true museum, the dance of the Muses is happening before your eyes. You know it, because you get inspired.

The true purpose of a museum is not to preserve but to show why something is worth preserving. It makes no sense to conserve something that is not worth conserving. If we really want to preserve something of value for future generations, we cannot start with preserving. We must start from the beginning — from encountering the Muses.

When we see a poet touched by a Muse, we know it. This is how Homer started the Odyssey:

“Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns...”

The reason the Odyssey is preserved until now is not because it was put in a museum or shrine but because we can read the dance of Terpsichore off it. Homer became a conduit of Calliope’s song. We can see the dance of the Muses happening right now.

When we read The Lord of the Rings, we can feel the dance of the Muses happening before our eyes. It springs from the story itself. You deeply feel the fire of that dance — it sets you on fire.

A true museum is a deep paradox — it’s built to preserve but it cannot preserve by focusing on preserving. No value can be preserved and passed down to future generations unless they see the dance of the Muses with their own eyes. They must see the fire, not just the ashes.

As the Austrian composer Gustav Mahler said,

“Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire.”

True tradition burns. If it doesn’t burn, it’s dead. All attempts at preserving it will fail. Our children are not interested in ashes; they want to see the fire. They want to see the dance of the Muses as they leaf through the pages of our “Odyssey.”

They want to see it anew. They want to re-experience the initial encounter with the Muses.

“Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?” — Isaiah 43:18-19

The past is only precious if its fire is alive in the present — not in the past. Tradition is only alive when it reveals the divine encounter happening in the moment.

As Dante exclaimed,

O Muses, O high genius, now assist me!
O memory that inscribed what I saw,
Here will your nobility appear!
(Inferno, Canto II)

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For today’s episode we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials (acrylic vs. oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture paste) and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile, artifact-like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative, experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction, and rescue, and how embracing “happy accidents” and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration, and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career—balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups, and building relationships that lead to gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community, and actively create their own opportunities, and also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram.

Nancy’s FASO site:
nancycrandallphillips.com

Nancy’s Social Media:
instagram.com/nancycrandallphillips

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Transcript:

Nancy Phillips: 0:00

You develop a very thick skin, yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen, you know. I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting. And you know you, you have to let go of your expectations and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening, that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:34

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials, acrylic versus oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture, paste and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile artifact like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction and rescue and how embracing happy accidents and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career, balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups and building relationships that lead to Gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community and actively create their own opportunities. And also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram. For those of you who are watching the video version of the episode. We wanted to let you know the video quality of this episode on our end is not the best for that. We apologize, though this does not affect the quality of the conversation. Welcome Nancy to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Nancy Phillips: 2:34

Thank you. I’m well. Thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Of course, yeah, I’m so excited to have you, because you are actually our second abstract artist to have on the show. And I’m very much enjoying talking to abstract artists, because there are so many aspects of painting in realism that benefits so so so much from the abstract thought and the experimental side. That happens much more frequently with abstract than with realism. So I’m excited to pick your brain, and I love also your pieces. They’re so, so beautiful. I love especially all your blue pieces with the gold. You’re welcome. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Nancy Phillips: 3:23

Well, I’m Nancy Crandall Phillips and I do currently, I do abstract mixed media work. I do a lot of little tiny pieces, and I do very large pieces, and I’ve been doing that for working in that way for about 10 years or so, using the same materials over the last 10 years, but it’s been a long evolution since I got started. I started out doing ceramics. When I was in high school, did a lot of ceramics. In high school, went to college, thought I was going to do pottery, and switched to fiber and fabric design, where I did a lot of mixed media, or I did a lot of soft sculpture work and weaving and print making and that type of thing. Then got out of college, worked in a bank for a little while, which I’ll circle back to, but then ended up working in the interior design industry for about 10 years, but always taking night classes in more ceramics, printmaking, drawing, that kind of thing. Then finally, after about 10 years, decided I really needed to make a change and go back to graduate school. And if I was going to go to graduate school, I was going to do something I loved. So I ended up. Uh, going to art school and still taking night classes at a really great art school, and doing my master’s degree at Cal State Northridge, which was much less expensive than a professional art school, but over that amount of time, got a lot of instruction in the materials that you use. I mean that what intrigued me all along was, well, when I first, let me backtrack a little bit, when I was in college, there was a presentation put on, incidentally, by a sales rep from Grumbacher who explained a lot about the chemistry of paints, and acrylic paints versus oil paints, and you know the differences in how they’re made and and talking about how the chemistry of it all. And you know what you can combine, what you can’t combine? You know, you can put oil on top of acrylic, but not acrylic on top of oil, and acrylic is essentially plastic, and that was a revelation to me. So anyway, fast forward through my early 20s, and I finished graduate school, married my husband, who’s a realist oil painter, and and started layering these things together. And eventually I I started working consistently on canvas and but I was always my let me backtrack a little bit one of my most instructive classes I took when I was beginning in college, taking art classes was about composition, and it was given by an advertising a former advertising executive guy and he and so the whole class was about composition and and how what your eye does with different elements in a comp, in a composition, and talking about how if you have a piece that touches the edge, your eye will immediately go there first. But even more exciting that then that is something that almost touches the edge, and the tension that that, that there’s tension there that you that will grab your attention anyway. So through that, I I have always paid a lot of attention to the edges of things, and I loved Canvas, you know, painting on stretched canvas, but the edge of the stretch canvas bugged me because it was so boring, you know, just Canvas wrapped over stretcher bars. So I started tearing my canvas. I would actually buy painters Canvas wash it in the washing machine because and I would rip it and then wash it in the washing machine so that they had the frayed edges, and so that it wasn’t completely flat. And then I would stretch it on a board and staple it with staple gun, so that it was stretched but uneven along the edges, almost like a carcass, like a skin of a of an animal, you know? And because, in the end, I was interested in my pieces looking like old leather and sort of like artifacts. So I worked that way for quite a while. And so I would work, I would take a piece of canvas, stretch it when it was wet, then it would dry and shrink back. Then I would paint on it and layer. I started collecting papers. I made paper for a while myself too, a little bit. And so I have, I have flat files full of a collection of rice papers and tissue papers. And every time I went to art supply stores, I was buying, you know, exotic papers of all kinds, and layering those on top of the canvas, because and sometimes painting them and layering them down. And when you when you layer them with acrylic medium. The paper itself often disappears, depending on what kind of paper it is and that, and then layering paint on top of that, especially watered down paint, so that it sort of decomposes and settles in all those little crevices. Is, and you can see the little you know, particles of pigment in there is always works for me. So I work like that for a long time. And then would would have, when the paintings were done, I would take them off the the plywood and stretch them over a stretched canvas, so that the edges overhang the stretched canvas, so that they would hang on the wall like they were floating, like a floating piece of canvas or animal skin or whatever, which was fun and lovely but impractical in the real world. And so, you know, you’re always worrying about the edges, and especially if there were paper overhanging the edges, which was which really floated my boat, those get wrecked pretty easily. So finally, I decided this is ridiculous. I need to do something that’s a little more practical in the real world, and that galleries wouldn’t be intimidated by handling, and that wouldn’t get damaged in shipping. So I started buying cradle panels and and then I discovered texture paste, which is a lot like clay. And so I started working the way I work now, which is smearing texture paste all over a cradle panel, then taking canvas and or paper, and then mushing that down on top of the wet texture paste so that it sort of oozes out the sides like clay. And that gives you all kinds of opportunities to embed all kinds of other stuff in there too. So, so that’s the way I’ve been working for the last 20 years or so, and slowly accumulating more stuff to embed in there. And somewhere along the way there, my husband started making the cradle panels and started doing a lot of framing himself. So we were making a lot of frames, and I was doing the gold leafing on the frames, which found its way into my work, because gold leaf is so fun, so and then other things started, you know, sticks. And we, we eventually, about 20 years ago, we moved from LA out to Northern California, out in the country, where we have a lot of Manzanita up here. And so there’s a lot of sticks around that are very intriguing, and so I started attaching those on and, you know, using wire and, you know, pieces of metal and just stuff that is hanging around. Then, about eight years ago or so, we were both in a art auction event up here at the Crocker Museum, and where everyone had big pieces they were auctioning off, but also little tiny pieces that they were donating for an a smaller live auction. And I saw a little piece there with gold leaf in it and other stuff that was just lovely. And met the artist, who was an encaustic artist, and she said, Oh, you know. I said, Oh, tell me, you know, you can embed gold leaf and encaustic. And she goes, Oh, yeah, you should really check this out. So I joined her encaustic group and went over to her studio a number of times. And so she’s my friend now. And so I started layering encaustic on top and and embedding things in that, and working with the the three dimensionality of wax on top of other papers and embedded stuff. And really, really having a lot of fun exploring wax when it’s translucent and when it’s opaque and and how incredibly frustrating it is to try to make it do what you want to do, and working out Ways to work with it in spite of its inability to let you control it. So anyway, that’s sort of brings you to how I’m working now,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:55

yes, and it’s fascinating, because. It feels like, you know, it’s a very experimental, like I mentioned earlier, iterative process where you come across one medium and you’re like, Huh, I’m going to try that out. And then you come across another medium and you blend them, and then it continues to kind of like become a bit of like a step ladder situation, or,

Unknown: 15:20

like, exactly that

Laura Arango Baier: 15:23

adding stuff. And I really, really love how the I feel, like, the very common sort of thread that I’ve noticed is you mentioned, like, how you wanted your canvas with, like, old leather. And of course, you were in the fiber arts, which, you know, natural materials, type of thing, and then jumping on over into like encaustic and like paper, and how both of those materials are very translucent, and playing with the, you know, Hide and Seek sort of aspects of like layering, which I really love, too. It makes me very curious about encaustic too, because it’s such an ancient technique as well. It’s something that’s been used throughout humanity for such a long time. Such a long time. Yes, I love love that so much. But yeah, and what you mentioned about encaustic being like such a difficult medium to use, I think the last time we spoke, I said that kind of sounds like watercolor. So it, from how you’ve described it, too, it sounds like it’s harder in that aspect as well.

Unknown: 16:27

It is. There’s less

Nancy Phillips: 16:30

in some in some ways it is because I’m, I’m into all the layering aspects of stuff, but there’s very few things you can layer on top of encaustic. So it’s, it’s limiting in that way. And, I mean, you can’t really put oil paint on top of encaustic. You certainly can’t put acrylic. It won’t, won’t stick. And part of working with encaustic is, I mean, you’re, you’re, when you’re, you’re painting with melted wax, and then you take a heat gun and have to seal it to the layer underneath, or it will pop off. So you’re working flat with melted wax, with a heat gun, and a heat gun, you know, pushes air out, so it’s, it makes it all move, which is annoying, unless it moves in a way you appreciate. So you learn to work with that too. But anyway, it’s very I find it, I don’t know, evocative and satisfying and infuriating all at the same time.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:45

That’s what’s that’s what’s fun about it, right? It’s, I think it wouldn’t be quite as fun if it wasn’t so challenging. You know? Yeah, I think there’s a very healthy amount of resilience, of course, that one has to, have to work with challenging mediums, but if you really enjoy it and you enjoy the challenge, then it’s totally worth it. And it’s funny, because I was just discussing that with with a friend, where if it’s too hard, you won’t want to do it, yeah, and if it’s too easy, you don’t want to do it. You need to have that like level of discomfort that makes it feel like achievable, so that it feels satisfying, and then you want to do it again. Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna also mention how the way you’re describing the process, too. I’m curious to know, what is your favorite part of the process that you’ve developed over time? I Huh?

Nancy Phillips: 18:45

Well, I I love starting out because all things seem possible. And usually I start out with a plan that that works for about, you know, an hour and a half and then, and then, something doesn’t go according to plan, but in a in a good way. So I find that I I, I make a lot of adjustments along the way, and feel free to change my mind, which you have to if you’re going to do this kind of thing. But starting out is a lot of fun, and usually I get to a point about a third of the way, and I work, let me backtrack a little bit. I work in in layers of things that that at the beginning, at least have to dry for periods of time. So I’ll work for a couple hours on a piece, and then have to go away and come back the next day and do some more. So it’s so it takes me a week or two at least of consistent work to get to a point where. I feel like I’m finished on a piece, and sometimes even longer. So they’re waiting periods when, when things are drying and changing. And, you know, acrylic paint, I I start out with with acrylics which change color as they dry, and I’m a lot of water down acrylics that that move around as they dry and pool in different places in different colors. Work. You know, there’s a big difference between, you know, phthalo blue and ultramarine blue in what they do to each other, what they do to the layers underneath, how they dry, how they pool, all that kind of stuff. So so usually things go along pretty well for the first couple days, and then they all fall apart and and then I go through a period of trying to figure out how I’m going to rescue this stupid thing that’s driving me crazy. And I assume I’m not supposed to swear on these things.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:08

Oh, you can, it’s all good if. Anyway, I totally agree.

Nancy Phillips: 21:15

So anyway, usually there’s sort of a long period in the middle there where I’m trying to rescue it and, and that’s, it’s always gratifying when something happens where you think, oh, you know, this is great. It might actually survive after all. So that’s always a fun part. And usually I’m, I’m doing more experimenting, in the end, with little, you know, tweaking of the converts of the composition. You know, the way, if you’re, you know, if you’re an oil painter, you’re really hitting those highlights that really sort of pull it all together. You do that, and I do that in abstract work as well. And, you know, trying to decide at the end, you know, well, am I going to do wax on this part. Am I going to try to, you know, am I going to throw some gold leaf in there, or some other metallic something? Or lately, or for the last several years, I discovered pigment sticks that you can use on top of encaustic, but you have to care, be careful then, about what you do on top of the pigment sticks. But that’s a whole new thing, of how you can manipulate the pigment sticks. You can, you know, draw with them. You can then go back with paint thinner and mush them around with your fingers, or whatever other things you want to do anyway, kind of those finishing touches are, are gratifying too. So there’s, there’s, there are particularly fun spots along the way with agonizing frustration in between. But that, you know, makes it all worthwhile in the end, usually,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:23

yes, oh man, I love that. That is, it’s very poetic, because it’s always so exciting at the beginning, you know, it’s like a, I think if I see it in a graph, you know, it’s like the excitement. And then it drops like a lot, and then it goes back up towards the end to a very satisfying, hopefully satisfying finish. But I think it’s also really interesting, because there’s this sort of like in the creative process. Along the way, there’s also a destructive process, you know, there’s like this back and forth between you, you know, you move three steps forward, two steps back, sometimes or five steps forward, one step back, and it’s, it’s the same with oil painting too. There’s a lot of push and pull, push and pull, but it’s really cool to see it in a more, I guess, gosh, a more experimental way too, because it is through that experimentation that you discover so much, right? It is you discover, oh, well, like how you said you can’t really use the pigment sticks. Or, like, if you do use a pigment sticks, you can’t really do something on top of them without destroying them. So it’s, it feels much more scientific. Kind of like how you said that, you know, the chemistry side of like, working with materials was what interested you. And I love to like that. Do you ever find that you might start a piece and then you you just, there’s like, no way to salvage it? Have you noticed that happening? Or do you are you able to save like, a good amount of them?

Nancy Phillips: 24:53

Yes, I have a stack of them over to the side that I’m trying to keep out of the. Out of the view of the camera, yes, but often I find that if I if, if things are really going badly, then I don’t care anymore, and I can be really reckless with it, and that’s when better things happen. And I’ve done a number of commission pieces where I’ll I, if I do, if I get a commission for a piece, I try to do two or three, because I find that if I’m if I just do one, it’s it’s too precious. I’m too tentative with it. And if I do two or three, then I can be much more casual and reckless. And the one that I initially started out with, that I think is really going to be successful, is not nearly as successful as one of the others that I was less, you know, I was more, you know, carefree about So,

Laura Arango Baier: 26:05

yes, that is so important, because there’s so much you know, when we put a canvas right, we’re right. We have a canvas ready. It is so easy to put so much pressure on ourselves for it to be the best thing we’ve ever done in our entire lives. It’s like, this is going to be the masterpiece. This is the one. But it is awesome to have that idea of like, okay, I know this piece is important. It’s commissioned. I’m going to make three so I know I have space to, you know, let myself play and not be so overcome with, like, the worry and fear of, oh my gosh, what if this doesn’t turn out and I have to start over? It’s good to have that wiggle room of, like, Okay, I’m going to play around a little bit and not put so much pressure on myself, because I mentioned this earlier. But there’s something, and there’s something really limiting imperfectionism, right? Like it’s such a box that we put ourselves in, you know? And of course, the way that you work, it’s hard to stay in the imaginary box of perfectionism, which I think is so healthy, even if it is frustrating.

Unknown: 27:20

Yes, definitely. So I

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

also wanted to ask you, if you’ve had since you’ve, you know, you’ve had this very long time to be able to experiment and play and learn and repeat the process over and over. Have you had any recent or big aha moments in your work that have really, you know, changed your perspective in your work, or have helped you move forward as an artist.

Nancy Phillips: 27:58

I think it’s a little bit that way, when I start working with incorporating something new, starting to work within caustic was a little bit like that. It changed. It definitely sort of took me on a little off ramp to a little bit different esthetic in the work that I do. And then pigment sticks have sort of expanded that a little bit too. But there hasn’t been anything dramatic. There was a period I after. There was a period after I got out of graduate school where I did pretty consistent work for about, I don’t know, eight years or so, and then got frustrated. It was just going nowhere. So I took, I took a couple years off, and didn’t paint at all for about a year or so. And we were living in an old house at that point, and we were restoring this old house, which you use a lot of art materials when you’re I mean, when you’re working with wood, you work with a lot of the same stuff you work with when you’re an oil painter. And so when we find when we finished that and I went back to painting, somehow that sort of reinvigorated the work that I did and and I think probably at that point I I started working a lot more with acrylic than oil paint, because you can you. You can cover it up and start all over again. Easier you can you can abandon that and start again. Easier with acrylic than you can with oil paint. But anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:19

BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever. It’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special ink FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, you know, I You mentioned something there that I like, because I relate to it. I also took time off in painting. And I think exploring other things can really reinvigorate painting or just like creating, because it kind of puts you, it takes you outside of, like, maybe, like, the same sort of bubble that you’ve been in with painting, and it allows you to gain a new perspective. For some people, it might be reading books. I know reading really can change you, especially when it’s fiction instead of nonfiction. It can really give you some crazy ideas. But home renovation, that’s, you know, in in many senses, it’s crafting, yeah, so it’s, it’s very much like, adjacent to painting, like you said, so much of the same things are used. And it also gives you, I don’t know, there’s something weird about, like, learning a 3d construction of some sort, yes, yes. Suddenly go like, Oh my gosh. I just realized this thing about painting that I hadn’t noticed, which is very funny, because it’s a 3d thing that gets transferred into a 2d level, and it’s like, whoa. It can be really mind blowing. But having that time away, I think, is so important for some people, especially how you mentioned if you get frustrated, and it’s if it’s just not going anywhere and it just feels very dry and you’re not excited for it anymore, it’s very good to step away. Yeah, well, since we’re on that topic, actually, I wanted to ask you, when you stopped painting for those years, because for me, I had a bit of a crisis. Did you happen to go through a bit of a crisis too, in terms of your artistic identity, so to speak.

Nancy Phillips: 33:50

I not real, not, not really. I mean, it’s, it’s always been sort of up and down. It wasn’t dramatic.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:05

That’s good, yeah, because I think it’s also, it can be so defeating too. When you take time off, yeah, it makes you feel like, gosh, I’m a failure. Or, why isn’t this working anymore? Is this even what it should be doing? You know, especially

Nancy Phillips: 34:21

if you’re if you take time off when you’re not liking what you’re doing, yeah, when you’re consistently unhappy with your output, it’s, it’s a little depressing. Yes, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:35

it can be very tough. But I think yourself like, Okay, I’m just stepping away for a short period of time, right? I’m just gonna take some time off. I think that that also really helps with not having so much pressure about like, oh my gosh, I’m just stop. I quit, I give up, because that’s very different. But that also makes me wonder, so you mentioned also that your creative process when you’re creating a piece. 90s, you can find yourself in points of frustration. How do you handle or like, what keeps you going, experimenting on?

Nancy Phillips: 35:15

Can you repeat that? I you, yeah. I you,

Unknown: 35:18

so did. I blanked out for just a second.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:22

Okay, yeah, no, I can repeat that. So when, when you’re working on a piece that’s really challenging for you, or like, when you reach a point when you’re creating a piece that gets challenging, what keeps you going, even when it gets really tough,

Nancy Phillips: 35:40

I walk away from it for a couple days, and usually leave it somewhere where I can see it sort of out of the corner of my eye. And fortunately, we have, we live in a house with a big family room next to the living room, and the family room we’ve converted into studio space so I can I can see what I’m working on in the studio out of the corner of my eye when I’m doing normal life stuff. And that helps, and usually stepping away from it for a couple days and trying to let go of what I thought my next step was going to be, and sort of entertain possibility of doing something radically different. And if I mean, I, because I work in layer of thing, layers of things. It, it’s, I can always put another layer of, you know, I can, I can decide to cover that all up with a, you know, a layer of paper that I’ve painted somehow to, you know, if there’s, if there’s parts of it that I think are really going wrong, I can, I can pile stuff on top of that, to obliterate it somehow and keep, I mean, I find that that if I keep working on it, it gets it’s better than just walking away. You know, usually, usually, the things that our best are things that have gone sideways part way through. You know, things that have come together easily are not as interesting in the end as the ones that I’ve had to save somehow.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:37

Yeah, yeah. It’s really interesting. Because I feel like, like you said, it’s a bit of a balance of, like, okay, working more or stepping away. Because even in oil painting, we also have the issue of, like, overworking, yeah, where a section of a painting just looks like it’s been touched way, way, way more than it should have been. And then, like you said, areas that are just oh, they came together really easily, and they’re not as fun or as, like, nice. So I think that’s really interesting, especially with, you know, how I find that I think abstract in that sense, might be a little more challenging, because you are so dependent on the abstract forms of composition, compared to, you know, like with a realistic oil painting, where you can just lay things out and it’s a it’s a lot more obvious to the eye what things are, because you’re already telling them, this is what this is with abstract that it seems like much more of a challenge to like you said how you had focused a bit more on composition. What would you recommend to someone who maybe wants to improve composition? How much of it is experimentation, and how much might be like looking at other artists who have worked on composition? What have you done to improve your composition?

Nancy Phillips: 38:58

I would say, look, look carefully at paintings you like, and pay attention to what you like about them and where you’re looking and what’s happening there where you’re looking. I think it. I think a vast majority of learning to make successful artwork is learning to stop to not, you know, just whack away endlessly, you know, to to, you know, put down a brush stroke and don’t do three or more. You know, it’s, it’s, really, it’s taken me forever to just not overwork things. And. And you know, to see what one brushstroke will do. And especially because I’m working, I work a lot in materials that move after I put them down. I’m not working in impasto oil paint, although that’s what I love looking at. Just to let, let the paint do, do what it does. And, and, you know, step back and, and, you know, stop messing with it so much. Yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:37

that just reminded me too of something that I thought about, which is dialog, right? Having a dialog like you’re saying with the painting, like it’s, I think it’s a lot easier to notice too and abstract, because you have such a very particular conversation with the materials, because you have, especially with a caustic how you’re describing, that it’s such a challenging thing to work with, you have to have a dialog with them, and that material is telling you, this is what I’m going to do, and you got to figure out how you’re going to react to me, because this is what I’m going to do, right? Yeah? And I think that’s one of the bigger challenges, but the way you’re mentioning it, yeah, I think having a bit more of like that, allowing the medium to speak to you, which doesn’t necessarily always happen with oils, in in a realistic sense, I think it’s a lot more obvious with the abstract.

Nancy Phillips: 41:34

Yeah, kind of but I mean, I think look at, I mean, if you’re a realist painter, look at your realist painter heroes, you know, we you, you know, look at John Singer Sargent and his, you know, his individual brushstrokes are like little abstract paintings. And that’s one of the things that makes his work so amazing is that, you know, if you take, you know, a little tiny snapshot, it looks like, you know, Mark Rothko and, and that’s, that’s the hard part is, is, You know, letting an individual brushstroke speak for itself, and and, you know, let it be paint on the canvas, instead of, you know, paint by numbers, you know, a solid block of, you know, titanium white, you know, inside black lines. And that’s, that’s what I do, just on a different scale, I think. And, you know, incorporating different stuff in there too, but, but it’s, it’s letting your materials do what they do best.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:56

Yeah, yeah. And trusting the process to an extent. Because, gosh, I mean, when it’s like, especially with encaustic, or, like, any of the materials that you use that want to do what they want to do, you almost have that you have to let go so much. You have to surrender so much to the process. How, how is that experience been for you? Like, did you have, you have you noticed that you’ve built a bit of resilience towards, like letting the materials do what they want. You develop a very thick skin,

Nancy Phillips: 43:29

yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen. You know? I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting and and you know you you have to let go of your expectations and and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned, at least. And I mean, I I just finished a piece. I’m entering in a in a show tomorrow where there was all kinds of interesting things going on, but there was way too much interesting things going on, and what I ended up doing to save it, in my opinion, is just, I mean, it’s a relatively medium sized piece, which I usually don’t work medium size. But in this case, I am, and I ended up focusing on a piece, you know, that was like two inches by three inches, because it was interesting, but there was just too much. Noise in the background. So I had to basically isolate that little interesting spot in order to let that be the focal point and be interesting. And, you know, let the back just, you know, take a rest, you know, and, you know, fade into the background so that you’re not so frantically distracted by, you know, all the other things going on in the composition. So it’s not what I intended at all when I started this piece, but that’s where I ended up. And you know, so far so good. We’ll see,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:46

yeah, and you know what it I find that that is so interesting. And I think it happens to anyone who’s creating anything, whether it’s painting a craft, anything where, like we might have an idea of what something, you know, what we want something to turn out to be, and then we have to, you know, come to a compromise where it’s not going to look like that, no matter what. It might come close, but sometimes it might never do that. And I think it’s because in sometimes we have, like, some somewhat of, like a dream, like, way of seeing things where, like in a dream, you know, things don’t always make sense. Like someone’s arm might be coming out in a funny way, but in the dream it looks normal. It’s, I find that it’s, there’s also that practice of, like, imagination that gets translated, and then you just have to deal with reality.

Unknown: 46:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:41

And then I also wanted to ask you, because you do sell your your work, which is awesome, what was it like for you when you you started selling more of your work? Like, what because you, you had mentioned to me you actually did some freelance work on the side. What was it like for you when you were balancing those two things, oh,

Nancy Phillips: 47:03

it’s, it’s always been that way for me. I’ve I, when I first got out of college, I worked in a bank for about a year and a half and learned about finance, and then I worked in the interior design industry, and I thought, Oh, great, I’m going to do all this arts, Arty stuff in the interior design industry, and that didn’t happen. I became the accountant, but that’s always been a skill I have in my back pocket, and so I’ve always been able to freelance that and do art at the same time, and that’s helped a lot. So, so that, I mean, I still do accounting a little bit, not very much, but, but it’s, it works. It works and it helps, you know, run a household with a couple artists in it,

Unknown: 48:09

yes, for sure, but

Nancy Phillips: 48:14

it’s been, it’s, it’s been nice to have, I can, I can, I can see how they sort of influence each other. It’s, it’s nice to have something that’s neat and tied up in a box, and when you’re done, you’re done and and you can put it aside. And then there’s this other thing that you know is hardly ever neat in a box, and but, but, you know, I’m still making order out of chaos in in the artwork that I do so and actually, I mean, in the just the artwork I’ve sold, I mean, I’ve been in a number of different galleries, and they’ve always, it’s always been sort of a fluke that has gotten me in the first, the first gallery I was in, I’ve always entered, did a lot of entering jury shows, and, you know, accumulating those lists on my line, on my resume. And I was getting something, I went into a frame shop to get a piece framed that was going in a show. And the framework, I said, Oh, you know, this is just like all the stuff I framed for this gallery over there. You should, you know, show your work over there. And that’s how I got into the first one. And then I forget how the second or third popped up. And then my husband was in a gallery in Massachusetts, and my brother went in there and started chatting with the owner, and she said, Oh, you know, what does your sister do? Well, she’s an artist too, and so she invited me to an invitational show, and my stuff sold, and then she it. Ended up selling quite a lot of my stuff over the years. So it’s always been sort of fluky things like that. But you never know who’s going to see your work where and think they can sell it and, you know, develop a relationship. So one thing sort of leads to another, at least for me, it’s worked that way. But you got to get your work out there where people are going to see it. So you have to enter a lot of shows and join a lot of art groups. I mean, I’ve, I’ve been in a lot of art groups over the years, women artists, mostly sometimes abstract painting groups, encaustic groups, and a lot of those sort of came and went over, you know, covid But, but you know, they have exhibits, they show and then you know your stuff is out there. And you just never know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:01

yes, yeah. I mean, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned, I think, a few times on the podcast, which is, it’s fine to be, you know, an artist who’s in their studio, but in the end, if you want to get your work seen and sold, hopefully you have to step out of the studio, right? You have to go out and talk to people, or, like you said, you know, you went to a framer and the framers like, oh, this, this, and that, you know, go check those people out. They might like you, right? So having that, you know, human connection part, I think, is so underrated. And you mentioned to me, I think that you also started with, you know, you were also doing auctions as well, like going to those events.

Unknown: 51:46

Yes, yes, yes,

Nancy Phillips: 51:51

yeah, we find that that local community galleries and and museums have art auction Invitational things. So we so my husband and I both get invited to submit work to those venues, which are always, I mean, it’s always a great place to meet other artists and see what the other artists in the area are doing, and get your work out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:18

Yeah, definitely, yeah. And how have you found these events? Have you like, has it been the internet, word of mouth, like, how have

Nancy Phillips: 52:28

you just they’ve been art through gallery owners that represent us. I seem to be on boards of museums, and somehow our names get on lists and so,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:44

yeah, that’s, of course, over time. I mean, as you build your, you know, reputation, but in a way, it is building your reputation where you start getting seen more, yeah, it definitely makes it easier to find those opportunities.

Nancy Phillips: 52:55

Yeah, and if you join art groups, they’re always talking about where, you know, everybody’s talking about where they’re showing and where they’re entering, and you piggyback on your friends, you know, I mean, you know, there’s a lot of word of mouth out there that you can take advantage of. So it really helps to get out of the studio and get interacting with other artists who are doing what you’re doing and going to, you know, conventions and things like that. Yeah, yes, yeah, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:25

I mean, you have to seek those opportunities out, right? I mean, something else that I’ve mentioned, which is, like, I think there are a lot of people, maybe not a lot of people, but it has happened to us at some point where we think, Oh, maybe an opportunity will follow my lap, right? It’s like, it might in the future, but you need to start building up, like, to get to that point,

Nancy Phillips: 53:43

you need to create your own opportunities that you can take advantage of.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:48

Yes, yes, yeah. It’s, it’s a little less common that they fall on someone’s

Nancy Phillips: 53:53

lap, not out of the blue, rarely, yes, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:57

It’s usually a bit of, like, a cause and effect thing, or like, oh, maybe you did a piece for this one thing, and then few years down the line, someone’s like, remembering you. It’s all this person might be perfect for this thing, but you have to have had that experience first of like, having put yourself out there in the first place. No one to find your work if it’s if you’ve never put it out there,

Unknown: 54:16

right, right, right. Yes, absolutely, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:22

And then I wanted to ask you, if you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist,

Nancy Phillips: 54:33

I would say, don’t give up, but have a day job, maybe not necessarily a full time day job. I mean, that’s, that’s why I chose this accounting gig, is because I could do that on freelance, on my own, you know, I have, I’ve, I worked for companies for a while, but I hated. I hated being told what to do and where to be when, and it just worked for me to be able to to have my own clients and do it when I wanted to, so that I could do other things when I needed to. And that’s just, it’s i It’s I think, particularly these days, in this day and age, it’s very difficult to be able to make enough money doing fine art to pay your bills. It’s very, very difficult. And, you know, but some people do it and, but you gotta work hard at it, and you gotta, you gotta get yourself out there and, and I think I don’t do workshops myself, although I’ve I’ve done a couple little day things with artists friends of mine, showing them, you know, how I work with encaustic on top of acrylic, on top of all the other media that I use. But I think that’s how a lot of artists are doing it these days, and it’s a great way to sell your work too. You know, I mean, people who take your workshops love your work, and, you know, put two and two together and take advantage of the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:35

So, yeah, it’s a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a it’s, I think it’s good to be honest with ourselves, in that sense, like how you’re saying, like, if, if living below your means isn’t necessarily a possibility, it is good to have a steady day job to help support, you know, an artistic career, in some sense. And I mean, that’s a pragmatic way to do it, so you’re not starving, unless you have really great family support, which not everyone has. But if you do, that’s awesome. That’s very lucky. Yeah. I mean, so much of being an artist is, you know, it can get really tough financially because it it, you know, again, bring it back to the resilience, resilience within your work, right? But also resilience in the fact that sales are going to go up and down, right? You’re not going to be selling all the time, and you have to be able to plan ahead for those moments where, oh my gosh, like, I haven’t sold in a few months. What can I do? And having that financial anxiety can be really, really tough for some people. So having, like you said something to fall back on that is a skill that you you’ve learned, whether it’s accounting or you know anything that is usually, I mean accounting, for sure, is always in demand. So I think that’s a very wise decision. But if someone you know doesn’t like numbers, right, finding something that they’re good at, that they know that they can put to use in those challenging moments, I think is very, very smart for sure.

Nancy Phillips: 58:13

Yes, yes. It’s necessary in this day and age, anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:20

Yeah, yeah, but, yeah. I think, you know, artists will always exist. I think we’re very stubborn people. You know, we love to do what we do, and we will find ways to do it no matter what. And that’s, I think the biggest thing when you’re an artist is just remembering, man, I love to do this, and I will find ways to do

Nancy Phillips: 58:42

it, yeah, yeah, yes. And when people buy from you, it’s, it’s very gratifying. I mean, it really, you know, is an affirmation of all of that.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:58

Yes, it really completes it. Yeah, it feels amazing, because it’s like, oh my gosh, someone actually wants this, this piece that I agonized over and cried over, and it’s awesome. Yes, awesome. Human connection is beautiful. But yeah, I am now extremely curious about encaustic. Thanks to you. I, you know, have studied a lot of in art history, and I’ve studied a lot of paintings that used encaustic and like old techniques, and I find that fascinating. So I think I will definitely reach out to you if I have any questions about encaustic, just like you know, many of our listeners,

Nancy Phillips: 59:37

YouTube, yes, source of all knowledge, source of a lot of knowledge.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:45

Oh my gosh yes, especially for less well known techniques like encaustic, or less popular, I should say, because it is so niche that you know, the people who do know, they really, really want to share this information. They i. I agree. I mean, there’s so much that can get lost over time if we don’t take care of, you know, collecting that information and spreading it out to others, it can be really, really tough. But then I’m grateful for all those people on the internet who do these niche things and like, they’re like, We need to put all of this on there, because it makes life easier for the ones who do find it like ah,

Nancy Phillips: 1:00:25

but, but beware that that encaustic has its chemical dangers too. I mean, you don’t go messing around with it without learning about because you don’t want to incorporate encaustic and thinners make really bad. They make fumes that are very toxic, so you want to have good ventilation and all that, don’t, you know, sit there in your bathroom, you know, melting wax, very bad idea. So educate yourself before you start messing around with that stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s the same with with oil paints too. I mean, you don’t want to be breathing in turpentine, no, much you don’t want to eat while you’re using lead

Unknown: 1:01:20

white, yes, yeah. So pay attention to that chemistry part, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:26

yeah, because it can be very life or death. I mean, I’ve heard of instructors that I’ve had in the past who are, you know, always using oil paint, and now they have, you know, heavy metals poisoning, or have had it, and it’s good to just avoid it in the first place. So it’s good to know, yeah, the safety precautions of encaustic, you know, kind of like how an oil paint you should never, ever, ever leave a rag crumpled up that has oil paint on it, unless you are very much wanting to burn down your own house. Yeah, yes, which I don’t think many of us do. But yes, that’s a very X point. And then, if someone wants to see your absolutely gorgeous encaustic paintings and other paintings that you’ve made, where can they go? Check them out.

Nancy Phillips: 1:02:12

I have a website, Nancy Crandall phillips.com that has all of my work on it. And also, I mean, there, you should also know, I mean, I have a friend who I helped set up a pottery studio a number of years ago, which has gotten me back into pottery. And there’s, there’s some pottery on the website too, but that’s just for fun, really, because once you’re addicted to these art, material things you can never quite get away from them. So anyway, I agree Nancy Crandall phillips.com is where, and I have an Instagram page too that I’m very bad at maintaining, but hopefully I will be better of that in the future. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:00

And then I will also include all of your links in the show notes for people to go check it out. And then if they watch the video, they will have seen your gorgeous work, which it is so nice. Please go check it out, guys. It makes you really want to try abstract because it’s just, it’s the qualities in it are. So I don’t know, there’s something very peaceful about your work that I

Nancy Phillips: 1:03:25

thank you. I feel like, like, the way my compositions work out. Usually are very sort of landscape. You know, they’re like, anyway, they’re they’re reminiscent of abstract landscapes to me in my head, but anyway, thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:45

Well, thank you, Nancy, this was a fun conversation. I am definitely going to go investigate encaustics, and who knows, maybe I’ll start playing around with some abstract to see if I can let go of all that perfectionism that realism tends to track you too.

Nancy Phillips: 1:04:03

Contact me anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:07

Yes, I will definitely keep in touch. Thanks. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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If you wish to comment on this piece, we are accepting comments on the original post here.

Solitude

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

This is a follow-up article to The Art of Re-Creation. If you haven’t read that essay yet, I recommend you start there. Both of these articles are excerpts from my upcoming book The Sovereign Artist: The liberating power of the creative act.

We’ve discussed that entering the heart of creativity involves following wonder and divine inspiration. By following that spark that is striving, through you, to share its story, you’re attempting to bring into being something extraordinary that the world has never before seen. And to truly achieve this, you must enter that divine state of flow and play in the eddies of the creative waters as they swirl around you.

Doing this often requires entering into long stretches of solitude — time when you can allow ideas to arrive; time when you can simply contemplate; time when you can listen for the muse’s whisper.

I want to briefly mention meditation. Nothing helped me hear the call of my soul more than meditation. It is the ultimate state of solitude; the ultimate state of listening; the ultimate way to see through illusion; the ultimate process of deprogramming; and the ultimate state of connecting with the sacred. Please consider trying it. It has the power to infuse all of your work with fresh insights and creativity. Meditation is the practice that brought me out of my dark night and I still meditate regularly to this day. I discuss meditation a bit more in Appendix I.¹

Whatever methods of solitude you choose, the times that you create or re-create are sacred and must be protected. Interruptions kill the flow state and the flow state is necessary to produce extraordinary work. I truly believe interruptions are the most dangerous thing any artist faces.

Your family may mean well when they pop in and ask you what you want for lunch, but they may knock you out of an inspired state that you can’t get back into. Perhaps this danger is why Julia Cameron, in The Artist’s Way, required that the weekly artist date be undertaken by the artist alone.

The Muse is your paramour. She is private and for you alone, and she may flee if another person gets involved. You must guard her jealously, particularly in the early stages of creation which often arrives during our renewal periods. Constant interruptions, especially, are dangerous because your energy will be diverted toward the wrong things, and that may leave you depleted and tired when it’s time to create.

True art often requires long stretches of uninterrupted time in your studio, so you must set limits to protect your (re)creative time.

An artist must have downtime, time to do nothing. Defending our right to such time takes courage, conviction, and resiliency. Such time, space, and quiet will strike our family and friends as a withdrawal from them. It is.

— Julia Cameron, The Artist’s Way

If you don’t protect your time, you will struggle to master your craft and produce enough sale-able work. Nearly all of the great creatives I know treat their studio time like a nine-to-five job, and during their regular hours (whatever those hours may be), rain or shine, inspired or not, they set aside that sacred dedicated time for themselves.

Do whatever you must to protect your creative time. You have to be very selfish to be original.

— Miles Davis

My wife and I once experienced this professional devotion to regular hours firsthand while visiting the painter Kevin Macpherson at his home near Taos, New Mexico. At breakfast one morning he politely explained that although we were on vacation, he was not. He would be in his studio until five o’clock and asked that we not interrupt him unless it was an emergency.

His studio stood a short walk from the house. The mountains were beautiful, the day was perfect, and he surely would have enjoyed joining us for a bike ride through the hills. But he didn’t. His studio time was sacred.

The professional artist understands that creative time is holy. Once lost, it cannot be recovered.

If you want to produce enough masterful, inspired works, which is what it takes to be successful, you must be just as protective of your creative time as Kevin is of his.

Leave a comment

PS — Next time we’ll look at the other primary method of re-creation: Nature. In the meantime, if these topics interest you, please click here to join the waitlist for my forthcoming book.

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And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Just sign up for a trial account by clicking the button below and be sure to activate your account within the first 15 days of your trial.

Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us and thousands of other sovereign artists in this movement.

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Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The BoldBrush Letter.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

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We’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us in this movement.

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Feature Article:

What Happens When We Stop Talking To Those Who Make Us Alive

The less we talk, the less we have to say.

The more we talk, the more there is to say.

That sounds like a contradiction – but it isn’t.

What happens when we don’t talk to a friend for a long time? Will we have more to talk about when we finally meet?

Surprisingly, no. At first, we will have to reconnect – we will have to “catch up.” The conversation doesn’t flow smoothly until that phase is over.

Paradoxically, the less we talk, the less we have to say. The more we talk, the more there is to talk about.

But isn’t that a contradiction? Don’t we have more to share after not seeing a friend for a long time? Don’t we have so much to catch up on?

That’s exactly the point. When there is much to catch up on, it means we’ve grown apart. It takes far more effort and time to reconnect to someone who has drifted so far from you that you need the “catching up.”

When we have grown apart, it is often because, at some point, our conversation ceased. When a conversation ceases, we inevitably fall silent – and eventually become mute. We lose our ability to speak. Speech is kindled only by speech. Human speech springs from hearing Divine speech.

J.R.R. Tolkien captured this strange conundrum beautifully through Treebeard’s words to Pippin, explaining how the Ents came to be. Once, they were only trees. But when the ancient Elves began to speak to them, the trees awoke:

“Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did… It was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten.”
— The Lord of the Rings

When I first read this, I thought, What a metaphor!

When someone who is truly alive begins to speak to you, you awaken – you come alive as well. When you cease speaking with them, you gradually fall asleep and eventually fall into silence – become mute. This is exactly what happened to the Ents who stopped speaking with the Elves – they turned back into wood.

The gift of speech is mysterious. Our speech is born from hearing the Speech. We remain mute until we hear God Himself speaking. True speech is always a response. As Jesus said,

“From the fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks.”

The world itself began in divine speech. In the beginning, there was a divine counsel: “Let us make…” And from that primordial conversation, everything we see came to life.

When we begin conversing with God, we come alive. When we continue in conversation with God, we stay alive and begin to speak words from above. Our speech becomes inspired.

The conversation must not cease, for our ability to converse is born out of conversing.

In the absence of true, enlivening conversation, we begin to lose the gift of speech and drift toward false, deadening talk – the kind that slowly turns us back into wood.

We turn on the TV, scroll through social media, and endlessly watch reels. Whenever I catch myself doing this, I know it’s a sign: I am slowly turning into wood. I am falling asleep. I am becoming mute.

I have to turn back – I have to begin an enlivening conversation with an “Elf” in my life.

For enlivening conversations awaken, stir, and invigorate. They cure us of dumbness – and that is a great gift that cannot be forgotten.

Leave a comment

PS — Check out Eugene’s book Fairy Tales for Grown-Ups: Rediscovering Myth and Meaning through Tolkien, Lewis, and Barfield.

Available on Amazon or his website.

PPS - We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

And you need it to be with a company who cares about human artists. A company with actual artists who support you and who you can communicate with. A company that actually promotes their artists, as you can see that we do in this very newsletter. Frankly, that company is us, FASO. We stand up For Artful Souls Online.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special spring deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here, ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us in this movement.

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We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Lordier, a California-based pastel artist, mom, and former flight attendant whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life. Influenced by early California and American impressionists, Kim focuses on value, shape, and expressive color, and credits key workshops—especially learning notan and studying with mentors like Skip Whitcomb—for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her longstanding struggles with negative self-talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the “preciousness” of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative “aha” moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and “ladder” is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison, respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember there is always another canvas to paint. Finally she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops!

Kim’s FASO site:
kimfancherlordier.com

Kim’s Social Media:
instagram.com/klordierart/

facebook.com/kim.lordier

Bob Newhart’s “Stop it!”
vimeo.com/97370236

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

Just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through it, because there’s your way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others her in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Laurier, a California based pastel artist, mom and former flight attendant, whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life influenced by early California and American impressionists. Kim focuses on value shape and expressive color, and credits key workshops, especially learning notan and studying with mentors like skip Whitcomb for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her long standing struggles with negative self talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the preciousness of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative aha moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what she sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and ladder is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison and respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember, there is always another chemist to paint. Finally, she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops. Welcome Kim to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Kim Lordier: 2:13

I’m doing great. Thank you so much, Laura. I’m really honored to be here with you.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:19

Yeah, I’m excited to have you. I am so excited to pick your brain about your art, because I absolutely love your compositions so so much. And it actually, it’s one of those things where you look at it and you’re like, oh, man, this really makes me want to play. It makes me want to play with pastel. So bad, you know, coming, yeah. And that is so funny. Every pastel artist I’ve interviewed or talked to. They’re always so encouraging about trying out the medium, because it really does look magical, even though the piece that you have behind you, I’m just obsessed with the movement of tone in the sky. I’m like, yes, thank you. This is amazing. Yeah. But before we dive in more deeply into your gorgeous compositions, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Kim Lordier: 3:02

Sure, I’m a mom and a wife who probably thinks about values and color and light more than is socially acceptable. You know, when you’re out and about and people are having a conversation and you’re like staring at the, you know, the landscape, or whatever. So I wanted to be a horse trainer or a long haul trucker when I was little. I ended up being a flight attendant, which is kind of the same thing as a truck driver, only my cargo was people. I always been a road warrior. Loved to travel, particularly driving. When I was a youth. I traveled for horse shows and as a flight attendant, of course, flying around the country. And I love to drive for painting and art events, which kind of mean, a nutshell,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:01

yes, and you’re an avid outdoor sleep as well, from what I’ve seen,

Kim Lordier: 4:05

yes, I love being outside. I love Mother Nature.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yeah, yes. And I can tell because it really shows through in your work to that love for capturing just how gorgeous things can be. You know, the especially your pieces that have to, like, have this gorgeous crystalline water. I’m so obsessed with those blues. I love it. Thank you so much. Welcome. Yeah, and actually, I really wanted to know because, you know, many artists tend to do this for a very long time. We tend to have started doing this since we were children. Do you mind telling us when you began to follow the path of the artist?

Kim Lordier: 4:45

Well, I think, like many of us, including yourself, we started really young. Yeah, I was always kind of doodling in school. And, you know, first got my first. Was drawing published in a newspaper in first grade, and that my parents kept around. I had no idea until probably a few years ago, and then in fifth grade, I won an award painting or drawing a shark of all things had been, you know, spending all my little younger years drawing horses and little girls and dresses. And I kind of find out, found out early on about a connection between creating and outside acknowledgement for good or bad. You know, you know, you get that response, and that’s kind of a little bit of a dopamine rush in school when and when I was in high school, I started painting horses like with pastels. So I’ve been working with the pastel medium since I was 15, and I started doing horse and dog portraits at that age and for money. So I kind of had a taste of making money. And you know, when people would ask you to paint their horse, or that emotion that comes when they see it, you know, the painting, they’re like some people will cry and, you know, get real excited. And that was a big, I don’t know, just something that resonated with me. Then I became a flight attendant, and I was still doing the animal portraits. And then I found out, as a flight attendant, I wasn’t really a natural nurturer, so I would find myself getting the service finished and then finding an empty seat or heading up to the cockpit to go hang out so I could look outside the window and see all the beautiful, beautiful land that we were traveling over, or going, You know, flying the all nighter from San Francisco to Boston, we go over the northern pole, or towards the northern North America. And you could see the, I just remember this one time when the Northern Lights were happening and the the ground was just covered in clouds and had these popcorn explosions of of it was a big, big storm all that covered the continent or that I could see in front of me. And so you could see these just lightning flashes. And then just as the sun was just starting to create a little bit of peak on the horizon, it was just the most magical time, one of my favorite times ever flying. But it clearly wasn’t as in serving others that was, that was my, that wasn’t my forte. So, yeah, then I think this journey that I’m on now really culminated in 2001 when right around that time I was just dabbling in painting landscapes from photographs, and I saw a woman give a plein air demonstration, and I it was the first time I really felt like I had to do that. You know, when I was when I studied in school, I studied commercial illustration, and I really felt less than and not. I wasn’t competitive. I had no inner drive to pursue that way of working, and I wasn’t very good at the illustration and the it was just a competitive field when I was in that was right as computers were starting to come into into play. And it’s just a kind of an awkward way place for me. Anyway, I’m kind of jumping around here. So I had become a flight attendant, and 911 happened, and I saw this woman give a plein air demonstration. I knew in my in my gut, that I had to paint from start, painting from life. So I started taking a class from her in oil. I was still doing the animal portraits, and then I also, you know, as a flight attendant, I had the privilege of, you know, getting to see the louver and the Met and Boston Museum, and, you know, all these amazing museums. But I was really never, I loved what I saw, but was really never punched in the gut by a painting until I saw museum Oakland museum exhibition that featured the early California impressionists, and that’s the first time i. Really was kind of floored, and kind of had the wind knocked out of me. This just was everything that, you know, I love, I’d love the illustrators, and looking at the illustrators, and, you know, the the impression of French Impressionists were, it was beautiful work. But the California impressionist and then my later study into more American impressionism really just grabbed hold of me, where there’s a marriage of tone and value and shape along with broken color and the expressive brush work. And at that point in time, I, you know, I was certainly aware of Sergeant and soroya and Zorn and all those guys, but really hadn’t taken it was just kind of early on in my my creative journey. And anyway, so all of that kind of culminated around 911 and started working from life, which was a game changer for me, and things really rapidly progressed from there in terms of, I would say, the quality of my work, my passion, the fact that I started feeling like I had an actual creative bone in my body. Instead of that, I was just able to copy, copy something.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:21

Yes, yeah. And those are all really important names, and I could totally see how that would affect your work, because I think there’s something in your strokes. It’s very it’s expressionistic and impressionistic and abstract, which is very beautiful. I think some of my favorite paintings, you’re welcome. So my favorite paintings of all time have always had a very wonderful element of abstraction, so that the eye itself can kind of like work alongside the piece to complete the image. You know, what might look up close like a little blurry thing from afar is a tree. You know, the eye says, Yeah, that’s a tree. It’s like, no, it’s just a little abstract mark on the on the paper or on the canvas. And I think that’s the magic, I think, in painting. And I wanted to ask you, because I think your compositions are so wonderful. I think anyone who goes and checks out your work should definitely study how you’ve laid out your values and how you’ve laid out your colors, because there is definitely a lot of knowledge that is obvious in your work. How would you say that you developed your skill in composition, you know, like the value composition, or actual physical laying out of the elements, color, composition. What helped you develop that skill?

Kim Lordier: 12:51

I think that the way I learned to see earlier on in my journey was I started studying plein air with this woman, and she was wonderful, and I was doing it in oil with her. And then I started painting this similarly with an underpainting process that I learned painting in oil from her with my pastels. Then I took a workshop with this gentleman by the name of John Barry Raybould, who created, after I took the in on location workshop, he created, he was in the process of creating the Virtual Art Academy, which is a great resource for folks. But he, during his workshop, I was painting in oil, and he kind of had this, you know, break you down before he builds you up, kind of way of working. And he taught us this, not amp process. And if you back in, back in that time, I didn’t really hear the word notan before. And notan, for those who are not familiar with that, is a Japanese term that’s loosely translated as black and white design. And he forced us to the first two full days of the workshop was creating notions with these pens, dark light, dark value, light value, and the middle value, and then the white of the paper. And we had to create compositions with that. And then we couldn’t use any color, even when we were on the whole thing was plein air. So we were composing in black and white, and I really learned the value, ha, ha, of values. And it was, and it was, it was kind of tough, because he would give you gold stars for failing at things. Right? So he had a little sheet on every person that was taking the workshop, and you’d get a gold star for not doing well with understanding value or not understanding edges. And so I just remember, you know, feeling good when I when I got there, and then then quickly realizing that I kind of sucked at all this. But then you know, things you know, turned around. And it really, actually forced me to to really learn, instead of just kind of doing, just diving in and doing, and I think that was the biggest, the biggest thing. And then I kind of took that and started breaking apart. You know, my favorite artists work, living and deceased that way, and understanding that really simplifying shape and values had a great deal of impact from across the room. And that’s kind of what I carry on in, how what I teach in during, you know, my workshops. And then, you know, just building on all of that that I learned really early on. And then, you know, my I took one workshop in pastel. I’ve only had about four or five over the course of my career that I’ve taken but my first workshop was with an amazing past Ellis and oil painter. His name is Lorenzo Chavez, and I remember going up to taking a five day workshop with him on location in Tucson. I’m from California, where it was all big oak, dark oak trees and dense shadows, and out in a Tucson desert, it was so aired, I felt like I was painting a Mars and had no relationship. So I really had to think about, instead of big, dark shapes, you know, how do you compose in terms of value, you know, in a higher key environment? And that kind of led me down a different path. And then a key layer in my journey was is continued to this day as Skip Whitcomb, who’s a pasoli oil painter and a mentor, an amazing, gifted artist, and the most generous soul with His knowledge and he’s had a I just recently, I think, you know, we never stopped learning. I just recently took a an online course with him called orchestrated color through the Tucson Art Academy, which has just been a tremendous joy for me to explore color. Color has always been very intuitive to me. I think color has been intuitively a strength of mine, that that I’ve always had fun with, but just actually learning more about color theory has been really a great asset and confidence builder, and has been really fun. We never stop learning. You know, continued, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:29

yeah, exactly, yeah. I was literally going to say the same thing, how with any craft, it’s, it’s more than a lifetime of things to continue to learn and expand within. So I find that’s one of the only reasons I would ever want to become a vampire, is to just have endless time to really hone a craft. Because even Michelangelo, when he was in his 80s, said, like, I’m finally learning, you know, like I’m getting somewhere, like, Oh no, don’t say that. Yeah. And I really find it cool that your instructor would put a gold star for a failure. Because I think at first it can be kind of jarring. It was very Yeah, yeah, because I can imagine, it’s like, congrats, you failed. It’s like, Oh, thanks. But I think failure is so important. I think we all have such a negative view of it, and that’s normal, I think because we are so used to the whole like being punished for failure, but in the sense of creative work, failure is so important. I think, yeah, you can’t, you can’t grow without messing it up, you know, like, and I think that’s one of the hard parts about being a working artist as well, because you try to sell work, you know, you try to create things so that you can put it in a gallery, and then it goes to solve. One’s home and it’s loved forever. But I think in order to get to that point, you have, you know, a lot of artists, me included, of course, we have to accept that not every piece is going to be nice, but that piece will lead to a better piece, usually, hopefully, fingers crossed,

Kim Lordier: 20:17

yes, and sometimes it’s, it’s the pieces that we love the most, that receive the least amount of outside acknowledgement, or whatever you want to, but I found that the paintings that you know I that really have resonated during my journey have always been because, in hindsight, because I’ve learned something, I tried something new that I was happy with. You know, it was had it was kind of successful in in my eyes, but really in the larger picture scheme of things, that was why I loved it was because I learned something, and I’m like, Hey, I got, you know, I just added another tool to my toolbox. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good painting or a solid painting, so I’ve kind of had to learn that,

Laura Arango Baier: 21:12

yeah, yeah. And I think that’s also why there’s a bit of a balance, I don’t know if you’ve experienced this too, where, when you make a painting, sometimes, especially, I think, I think it especially happens for the rest of one’s life, which is, you start a painting and you think, this is the one, this is going to be a masterpiece. Or, like, you feel like you have this like, Oh, I’m totally going to make this amazing. And then, of course, you get shot down by the reality, which is, it’s always a work in progress. You know, your works develop as much as you continue to develop as a person and as a crafts person as well. And yeah, it just the quicker you can understand that as you know, as an artist, one can understand it as an artist, the better it is. Because, like you said, you might have these exercise pieces or these pieces that you know you were hoping would be a masterpiece, but instead they were a lesson. And it’s so beautiful to have those lessons and to look back, you’re like, Man, I, as much as I suffered through this painting. And I think that’s one of those things where, like you really do suffer as an artist. So sometimes you just, you suffer so much through your work, but then once it’s over, and you can set it aside, and you look back on it, it’s like, Man, I overcame this. And I think that’s, that’s the part that I’ve also been trying to really focus on when I’m doing a really difficult piece or trying to overcome a really difficult problem is I find more satisfaction in solving and overcoming now than I used to before. I don’t know if you relate to that. Yes, it’s less satisfying now to actually get it right the first time.

Unknown: 22:58

Yes, I agree. I

Laura Arango Baier: 23:01

agree, yeah. And I wanted to ask you now, because it kind of ties in really well with asking you about if you’ve had any recent aha moments, or if you have you had like, a like, what’s your biggest aha moment that you’ve had over your creative work?

Kim Lordier: 23:20

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realize that it’s really, truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. And you know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And, you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like, knock on wood, you know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happen to my beautiful space that I love to be in, I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know. And I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody or you know that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here, but it’s just. That I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends. And there’s just nothing greater than that for me, other than being a mom and a wife, of course, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:29

yeah, totally Yeah. It’s living in the moment and just experiencing life, you know,

Unknown: 25:34

yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:37

Because I mean, oh yeah, go for it, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 25:39

Sorry. I had one more thing that was kind of an aha moment on a different scale, or on a different in a different way. I had great advice early on in my career from John Stern, who is the Director Emeritus of the Irvine Museum in Southern California. And I remember, I’m from Northern California in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I remember, you know, traveling down So Cal to go see an exhibition of the early California impressionist which is his one of his fortes, and what the museum, you know, their permanent collection, has an amazing early California Impressionist Collection. I remember, I met him really early on in my career, and he became, he became a mentor and a great supporter of my work. He, he and his beautiful wife, Linda, purchased one of my paintings and or, and they became collectors. Anyway, I remember he took me around and talked to me about the the current show that was up. And then we went back to his office, and we were just chatting. And I, you know, being a past Ellis at that point in time, you know, I kind of had that wiffle waffle, and I asked them, you know, John, should I be painting an oil to be considered a real artist? I know my friends are going to roll their eyes at this. And and he goes, Kim, you know you’re doing beautiful work. And make your mark. Make your mark in your medium. And it was, it was great, great. Very sounded advice. And I took that and rolled with it, and that was that was amazing. And one other thing that an art kind of an AHA thing that helps me move me forward through my journey, was I was also kind of lamenting the fact that our art community up here, at least for representational art, is not as prolific as the community is in Southern California, in my opinion. And I, you know, I remember saying to him, I wish, I wish I lived down there so I could be, you know, closer to the things that are, you know, the events and the people and stuff like that. He goes, Don’t be in a hurry. Or it was more than that. It was also, you know, being represented by galleries and about getting into bigger shows. You know that that hunger that we have as when we’re young and, you know, wanting to climb a proverbial ladder, and he told me, he says, Don’t be, don’t be in a hurry for what you think you really want, because that journey leads to, you know, galleries and shows and deadlines leads to time away for the the creative process of experimenting. And you know that that giving yourself time and grace to go play. And that’s that’s a whole journey in of itself, and and that really resonated with me, and I’ve tried very hard to keep my creative process separate from my marketing and business side of what I do, I think that keeping those things separate, I mean, they truly overlap, but keeping them separate as as much as you possibly can is really, really important. And I appreciate John for his advice way back then, because it’s really helped. I think stabilize. That doesn’t mean it’s gone away. You know that balance is, you know, tough,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:45

yeah, yeah. And I love that you mentioned that, because I’ve also heard that that piece of advice, which I’ve heard a couple people say, it is, enjoy your anonymity, yeah, especially at the beginning. As an artist, I think it’s also in reference to anyone who’s in a creative career, because early on, you’re not tied down by anything like you said. You’re not tied down by deadlines or by the calendar or by the 20 workshops that you might have signed up to teach out of excitement, and before you realize it, it’s, you know, it’s been a year or two or three, and you feel like, oh, man, I haven’t really advanced in in my creative work, right? Like it’s so important, like you said, to have that compartmentalization where, like, you know, you can schedule your experimental work because it and that kind of reminds me of this thing, which is like, there’s things, especially, like you said, you know, when you’re early in your career and you’re hungry, right? As an artist, there’s the things we think we want, and then there’s the thing we the things we actually want, right? So, and sometimes we don’t realize it, right? We don’t realize that the thing we actually want is to just keep creating. And we think we want gallery representation. And this actually leads perfectly into my next question about, you know, having this, I like to call it a Venn diagram, like I mentioned to you before, where we have the Venn diagram of what you want to paint and what sells. And then, for some people, the crossover between those two circles might be really, really narrow, and for some people, it might almost be a complete circle. How do you balance for yourself, creating the work that you want to create, and creating the work that will sell?

Kim Lordier: 31:39

Well, I feel really blessed that I still am passionate and love to paint mother nature in all her glory. So it feels natural to continue to feed the folks who run the amazing galleries that I’m in with the work that inspires me. I I feel extremely fortunate that, I mean, I’m one of my most spiritual places to be is Point Lobos in Carmel, or just south of Carmel, California. It’s along the California coast, and I’ve been represented by two amazing galleries down there, and Jim reserve fine art, who closed his doors because he retired a few a few years ago. And then I’m now down there with Laura Lai and at Carmel fine art, and I’ve always known that if and when that area doesn’t speak to anymore, then I know I have to part ways, because, you know that’s what they want. And our gallery owners that represent us, you know, they have their own esthetic vision and what’s important to them. So I feel blessed that, you know, that’s been a place that I revisit over and over again, that that whole, our whole coastline and the California landscape. So you know, that is, that has been, that has been the easy part. I think a difficult part for me has been, you know, when I travel outside my state and am so inspired by the landscape and the environment and the people, and I’m blessed to be in a few galleries outside my state, in Montana, at alume Gallery, and in Colorado at Wild Horse. And you know, trying to stay true to their vision and and you know, keeping my best work, you know, for them, they all want your best work, and it’s, you know, we don’t always have, we don’t always have our very best work available, because we’re still working so hard to to get to that point. I guess I think that. I think the takeaway is respecting your galleries and respecting the folks that run them, because they have their own vision. And if you’re if you’re not willing to compromise, I don’t happen to be in a position where I could just dictate what it is that I want to paint. I and you know, if you’re in that position, you know, with somebody representing you, oh, and my Hughes Skelly gallery too, down in Balboa Island, you. They all have their own vision. So if you don’t resonate with what they’re wanting, then it’s time to be professional and excuse yourself or have that conversation with you know, are you? Are you willing to carry some something else that I’m Are you willing to try something new with my work? You know, have the conversation and and being open and professional with them is really important.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:28

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Unknown: 37:08

I don’t know if I actually answered your question.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:12

Oh, you did. I think, I think you definitely did. Okay, good. Because, you know, I’ve heard a lot of artists refer to like relationships of galleries, almost like a marriage or a very, very long term friendship that you have to nurture. And you know, sometimes you have to part ways, or sometimes you have to grow together. And I think that’s a very important, like I said, important conversation to have, because as artists, we’re not just like for the most part. We’re not just this stagnant brand, right? We’re humans who are continuing to grow, and maybe at one point you’re exploring a particular type of subject matter, and then suddenly, as time goes on, you realize, man, I really want to explore this other subject matter, but this gallery in particular, I’m afraid that maybe they won’t take a risk on this new subject matter. Or, you know, how do I discuss it with them? Should I find another gallery for this other subject matter? Because there’s also, like, I think many of us artists, we’re lucky, of course, because I mean living from making beautiful paintings is it’s an incredible blessing. So you know, to maintain that blessing, you also have to realize when you don’t want it to become laborious, in the same sense that you know, if you’re going to suffer through forcing yourself to do something the same way you would an office job, you might as well get an office job. Because, yeah, at least the office job gives you a an actual paycheck in a constant manner. Yes, which is very rough when you’re an artist. Trying to go at it. So, yeah, there’s a bit of a balance. And then if you can, like, you said, if there’s a way to make it more enjoyable for yourself or your painting, like, I’ve heard artists say, like, yeah, you know, I stick to the to, you know, figuring out the stuff that I want to do. And then the gallery says, Hey, can you paint us three more sunsets? I will do it because I know it gives me the paycheck that I need to be able to sit and continue with my experimental work. So it’s, yeah, it’s a balance, hopefully, like I said, that Venn diagram is just a circle, though, for a lot of people, right? But when it isn’t, you got to find ways to supplement, and that’s just the, you know, tough part of being an artist, unless you’re a ridiculously wealthy person already, you know,

Unknown: 39:52

that would be okay. Oh, that’d be great.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:54

Yeah. I would just paint whatever the heck I want and start my own gallery.

Kim Lordier: 40:00

It. Be careful starting your own gallery. That’s a

Laura Arango Baier: 40:03

lot of work. Girl, yes, it is. Yeah. Okay, there you go. I would totally hire people. Oh, man, but I wanted to ask you now, since we’re on a little bit more of the topic of business, when you were still a flight attendant, right? What was that like for you when you decided to shift over to your creative work? What was that like for you?

Kim Lordier: 40:34

It was, I mean, the whole world, and most particularly the United States, you know, there, there was a catastrophic, catastrophic event that happened. And the decision was not difficult. It was like, you know, I, I mentioned earlier, I’m not a natural nurturer. I was, I ended up being a flight attendant because I’m very grateful that my dad was is a right retired captain for a major airline, and when I got out of school, that I’m so thankful that they were able to help me get through college. You know, I flew for the about 12 years. And then 911 happened. And you know, that was, that was a wake up call for a lot of people, the horror of it, and then the Life is short, part of and I, I don’t even want to say this, but the the silver lining around such a horrible event was such that the I went back and flew for about the month of October, after they let that the airs that planes back up In the air, and nobody was flying, and the the airline said, Hey, we’re asking for volunteer furloughs. And I raised my hand because I wasn’t going to lose any seniority, nor was I going to lose my medical benefits. I was going to lose a paycheck, or I lost it pay my paycheck. But it was an opportunity to see if I could do this full time, and I did, and I’ve never looked back, and I’m so grateful for the the opportunities that have come my way since since then but it was, it was, it was a safety net and so that that’s kind of how that that happened for me. I just, I made the choice and never looked back, because, and I feel strongly, you know that you know we are meant to go down a path and the doors open when you know when they’re supposed to So,

Unknown: 43:13

anyway, so that’s, that’s it was. It was quick. And fast is what it was.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes life can be that way. It really becomes a moment where you have this very obvious turning point where it’s like, it’s now or never. Because, like you said, Life is short. You never know, yeah, what’s going to happen tomorrow? We can, we can think that tomorrow’s sunrise is, you know, short for us. But it’s not always the case, and I feel the same way, you know, I try to be like, is this an opportunity that if I don’t take it, I’ll regret forever? If the answer is yes, I’m just going to do it right, yeah? Because yeah, like we said earlier, you only live once, and you got to take that opportunity, if it’s the one that you think is right for you. I’m guessing though, that in that time when you were furloughed, you just focused on making work. Did you also focus like, did you already have galleries that you were talking to or were working with? Or did you have to rebuild that and like, No,

Kim Lordier: 44:19

make right around. Yes, sorry for talking right around that time, it was a lot of things happened all at the same time I mentioned earlier, you know, I saw that the early California Impressionists started painting, painting from life in, you know, 2009 11 happened, and I was, had already been in my first I was invited to be in a cooperative Gallery, and so I was kind of seeing what that what that felt like being in a gallery. You know, when I was I’ve never. Pre that as a goal to be in galleries. I didn’t have a clear vision of what my creative journey was going to be like, you know, moving forward. And so I was, I was already in the Portola Art Gallery at that time, and shoot, I forgot what your question was.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

If you know you’re good, it’s only if you continued, or, like, when you were furloughed, how you managed to, like, you know, get back into or, like, start working with galleries and like, oh,

Kim Lordier: 45:33

right, right. Okay, yeah, yeah. Thank you for the the prompt we let’s see, started working from life to 2001 2002 you know, I’m learning my craft and working, or being in the involved with that gallery, and then I end up getting pregnant. And then my very first, my very first plenary event was Carmel fine art, and I was six months pregnant, and I remember slipping around out in Carmel in the sand dunes with my big belly and my art gear and painting and it was a great experience. And I continued to do plenary events, which is kind of how I got my voice, my work out there, and the galleries I had, I just had I’ve been so blessed my gallery in Carmel. Jim approached me during an event down in the Laguna, Laguna planer painters Invitational, way back in 2005 he goes, I really love your work, Kim. And would you be interested in me representing you up in Carmel? And so, you know, I ended up there bringing him a body of work, and so that, that has been a blessing. Gosh darn it. I forgot what the what your question was. Again,

Laura Arango Baier: 47:21

backwards. And 10 in time, you’re good, you’re good. It’s, yeah, it’s just how you built up, you know, your art career after, yeah, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 47:29

So it’s been, it was, you know, I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of, I think, like a lot of us, throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium. We have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows so my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base, and that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know my friends, people that are who maybe listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s Your Way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work again. Remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important, but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get. The top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke. That’s so corny.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:10

Oh no, but it’s, can’t believe I said that, and it’s a great point. I think it’s, I think I was mentioning this earlier too, like, how, ah, you know, there’s something about making work that also speaks to yourself, right? It’s the work that you care about. Because if you’re painting, you know, someone else’s work, right, you’re imitating someone else, which is totally fine. I mean, we all start with imitation, to some extent. That’s how we learn to write, that’s how we learn language and art being a language, that’s how we learn to paint and express ourselves. But if that’s all you’re doing, using climbing someone else’s ladder, you’re setting yourself up for failure. I mean, yeah, there’s, after so many years of betraying yourself like that, right? Betraying the actual deep message, the ones that come through, you’re gonna feel empty. You’re gonna feel you know, it’s, it’s inevitable, because it’s not your dream, right?

Kim Lordier: 51:16

And and also, climbing summit, I think, I think about climbing somebody else’s ladder is where it’s more about comparing your journey to somebody else’s, where you see somebody being real successful, and you get frustrated because you’re not climbing the rungs the same way as that other person. And so being aware that it’s, it’s your own journey that is that you need to just to stay in and relish and I think, yeah, no, it’s your personal ladder to climb, not not somebody else’s, and to do your best to keep the comparison out of it, because it’s so easy to compare. And you know, if you’re not getting into shows and you’re not getting acknowledgement, that doesn’t mean that your work’s bad, awful or a failure, it just means that that’s just somebody else’s opinion, and the most important opinion is how you feel about your own process. The takeaway, I think, is that if you’re not in love with your own process, then none of the rest of it matters, not the likes, not the hearts, not the followers. None of that matters if you don’t love what you’re doing, and it’s doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to follow the path of how you see somebody else, quote, unquote, making it, because you also don’t know what’s behind the scenes of that artist’s dialog that they say to themselves, that’s a whole nother thing. You know your internal dialog that happens? You know, I have a lot of negative dialog that has run throughout my journey, and that whole feeling of that imposter syndrome, too is a big has been run all through and still does to this day, little little devil on my shoulder that I’m like That flick off, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:18

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, totally. And that’s why, you know, it’s if you have the devil on one side right, telling you all these horrible things, which most of us artists do, it’s better to just, like, go listen to the other side, little angel on the other side, and, like, try to pay attention to that a little bit more. You know, to some extent, it is good to be aware of where you can improve, but not to the point where you’re crying yourself to sleep every night. Absolutely, yeah, and I love that you mentioned, you know, not, not chasing someone else’s, you know, like level of success, or how quickly they’ve ascended, because that’s just their path. You know, you can’t, yeah, sometimes life will throw you into an even more amazing path than you can ever imagine. And that’s why to it, yes, yeah, you have to stay open to that. Yeah, stay receptive and open, because you like a little bit like I said earlier, there’s what you think you want, and then there’s life surprising you with something even more grand or something even more magical that like you’re, I don’t know, 1820, year old self could never have imagined. Because life, of course, continues and keeps going and going. And when you think you’ve seen it all, and you think you know it all, it surprises you again with something even nicer and even more amazing, truth. Yeah, true, yeah. And actually, I did also want to ask you, since we’re on the topic of, you know, like, some of the difficulties of being an artist, besides, you know, the creative aspect, financial aspect, and. What do you what would you say is one of the hardest things about being a full time artist that no one really talks about.

Kim Lordier: 55:08

Um, all I can speak is for from my own journey, and we’ve already, kind of, I already touched upon it, and that’s been a, you know, an a negative internal dialog that I’ve, I’ve battled since, you know, since college, I remember, you know, I studied commercial illustration, and I cut my way through classes because I never felt good enough. And it was very competitive. There was a lot of in a lot of ways, you know, what I felt? It doesn’t necessarily mean it was actually what was happening, but it’s how I felt. But the you know, the harsh critiques, the never feeling like I could draw well enough, like comparing myself to the other people around me. It was a and that I built on that, and still to this day, I kind of battle with that. You know, not again. It’s the comparing that is always going to take, tear you down. It’s not going to keep you, it’s not going to it’s not going to allow you to rise up. So, you know that imposter syndrome? You know, when the successes that I’ve been truly, amazingly Blessed with over the years in my journey, I’ve had some, you know, some wonderful things happen. And basil, you’re like, Is it for real? You know, did you know that I just, Is that for real? You know? And it still amazes me, you know, today, when something beautiful happens, such as this conversation that we’re I’m allowed to have with you and share my journey with you and whoever’s maybe listening, I remember, Oh, back, I don’t know, 10 years ago or so, I was been part of a major national Show, and the curator of the show is she, what is, is a force and an amazing woman in her own right. But I remember her sharing with me, you know, bring me something different, send me something different than what you normally do. This is, this is a place to try something new, and then she invited me to channel another artist’s work, and it threw me for a loop. And it really tapped into she had no idea. She had no clue, but it tapped me into, like, a couple year, I don’t know, sadness wrapped around what I was doing in that I it tapped into all the negative things that I’ve been saying about myself, to myself quietly, that I wasn’t good enough, that I needed to do things differently. I needed to paint differently, be somebody else I wasn’t good enough, that she never said that, but that’s she just pushed that that trigger for me, and it took me a couple of years, really, to get out of it. And funny enough, she’s the same person that I had a conversation with, and I call it my vomitus interruptus moment, where I was talking to her on the phone. She lived in a different state. For me, I had one of those not pouring out of my nose, hiccuping crying sessions on the phone with this professional woman. I can’t believe I’m sharing this with you guys, with you. And she literally said, Kim, I’m clearing my desk for me, for you right now, because I was just like beside myself, and I let it all out, all the insecurities, all the blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just was a cathartic moment and and it was amazing that happened with the same person who, who was slightly the devil on my shoulder, you know, even though she had no idea until then, anyway. And it was a it was all me. It had nothing to do with her. It had nothing to do with her. It was all my all my shit. Use my language, but that’s the truth. Sorry for my potty mouth, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:51

Oh no, you’re good. You’re good. It is warranted. It does feel that way, and I relate so hard to that I think I’ve. Had much like you. You know, those moments of mirroring my own pain, suffering and security onto someone else who really reflects it very clearly, even though they don’t realize it. I’ve also had those moments, and they become almost like a symbol for that pain and that frustration. And of course, I’ve also had my breakdowns about it because it I think one of the hard things too about being an artist is sometimes like, again, you think you want something, and then turns out the thing you actually want has to kind of like surface over time, and I felt that way very much about going to academic school, where I always tried so so hard to fit in. I tried so hard to, you know, fit in with my peers and be admired also by my peers. And it just never freaking worked. And it came to the point where I realized, man, I you know, it’s like a square peg in a round hole. You know, there comes a point where you just can’t force yourself to fit into a mold that just isn’t for you. And the quicker you realize, man, important, yeah, I need to just let myself use these tools that I’ve gained from, you know, learning these skills, and apply them in a way that makes me happy, and get myself out of this bubble that I’ve decided I should fit into, right? And that’s been the hardest thing to deal with. And I, you know, here in your your experience, it’s like off, man, I resonate so hard with that little devil. Yeah, oh, you’ll, you’ll never be able to do this. Or, Oh, you keep failing at this one thing that all your peers can do already. Or, like, you know, just stuff like that.

Kim Lordier: 1:01:53

Yeah, yes. Oh, stop it. You said, stop it. There’s that I just have to share this really quickly. I was working on a lecture that I had mentioned earlier, and I had a friend, Susan, who was helping me along with it. She was she’d kind of edit and stuff like that. And so self I’ve had to work on being less self deprecating verbally and also saying apologizing for everything, which is kind of a thing that I’ve done forever. I’m so much better at it. But Susan helped me, because she made me listen to this Bob Newhart one of his comedy sessions where he’s a psychiatrist, and for those folks who are listening to this and you have if, if you find yourself apologizing or consistently or being self deprecated, or find something that you’re repeating that drives yourself Crazy, check out his episode called stop it because it is hilarious. And the stop it is a is a term or a phrase that I now use for myself to help, help me stop it. I promise you guys,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:20

yeah, no, I’m gonna link it into the show notes. So are very other listeners might also check it out. I think it’s so funny because I didn’t realize that you were gonna say stop it, and I was literally just saying, like, stop it. So now I want to watch it so I can Yeah, it’s hilarious. Yeah, that’s a

Kim Lordier: 1:03:41

great way to reinforce that. And it’s, you know, psychologically, it shuts the brain down. You know, when you say, stop it, you’re, you know, it’s like, it’s like, it stops that cycle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:53

So, yeah, yeah, because it’s so easy to just get caught in that loop, yeah, it just repeats itself, yeah. And then it feeds itself too, which is awful. It’s why it’s so hard to break it. But yeah, totally. I know you’ve also given a ton of advice here, but do you have any final advice for someone out there who wants to make a living for being an artist?

Kim Lordier: 1:04:17

Um, I guess I have a couple things that I’d like to share, if that’s okay. I think, I think it’s super, super important to be professional in every element of the business side of what we do. I know that’s pretty silly to say, but having been on the receiving end of shows, and, you know, doing a little bit of volunteer work that I have done, and realizing that people don’t read their prospectuses all the way through and follow. Follow. You know what’s going to help the volunteers and the folks behind the scene that are working their tails off for you to submit your painting to a show. Just so always read and follow your prospect prospectuses. Honor the deadlines. Don’t be one of those that don’t be an artist cat where you have to be chased down to get what the folks that are working hard need to get to put the show on. I recommend be proactive about pursuing your own like articles. I was the my very first article that I had in the pastel journal, which is when I was pregnant or had just had Ryan, was came from me, because at that point, I’m so old that people weren’t writing about motherhood and being artists, that you wouldn’t find articles like that in magazines. And I approached the editor and asked if we could do, if there could be a, you know, an article written about, you know, being pregnant or and she, like, grabbed it. She said, Yeah, let’s do it. And so I was able to kind of be a part of my first article. So know that if you have an idea or you’re seeing something that’s important to you, that’s not being written about, it’s fair game to go approach an editor or say, Hey, I’ve got this idea. Write it yourself. The new ideas are always out are always out there. So again, respect the volunteers working behind the scenes. You know, I think you mentioned, you know, how to approach galleries and stuff like that. That’s a hard, kind of a hard thing. I’ve been very fortunate to have not really had to go down that path yet. I’m sure that will, that will happen in my future, but I think it’s things are so much different now. You know, going in with a portfolio, and assuming that there’s so many artists out there now and so few galleries, and they’re closing fast that you know, if you find a space that you really want to be a part of, go be a part of the community. First, go introduce yourself to the gallery and get to know what the space is all about. And for every individual artist out there, there’s an individual, individual gallery owner who has their own creative vision, and it doesn’t always mean that your work is going to fit in with their space. They’ll get to know what that is. And I have kind of some personal advice, especially now, our world is constantly changing, and I feel very strongly that happen. Happiness comes from within. It doesn’t come from likes or hearts or your followers. And I, I think it’s so important to trust your instincts, your instincts as they will lead to solid work that will then lead to doors opening down the path that you are meant to walk, not somebody else. And I think I said it earlier, but remember that there’s always another canvas to paint on.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:44

Yes, yes, I’m so so so happy that you mentioned trusting yourself, because that really ties into everything that we’ve been talking about. Because even just like you said, you know, if you lost everything in a fire, you have to trust that all of the work that you’ve done, it wasn’t just a fluke, right? It came from you, and you can do it again. And building that self trust is so important as an artist is trusting that, hey, I can figure this out. I might not know what the heck is going on? I might not know what the problem is right now, but I can trust my my skills and myself and what I’m capable of to figure it out, because Absolutely, that’s all you can really do. Yeah, absolutely won’t have all the answers, but you can try darn hard to try to get them. Yeah, and then I wanted to ask you also, because I absolutely love your work, and I think you know anyone out there should go check it out. Do you have any upcoming exhibitions or shows or workshops that you would like to tell us about?

Kim Lordier: 1:09:58

Sure, let’s see. I. I will be I just finished teaching a workshop couple weeks ago. I do about two a year, maybe sometimes three, but my next workshop will be in Boise, Idaho, and the end of September, beginning of October, and it’s through the pastel society of the West Coast. I’m really excited to get up in that neck of the woods and and play, and then I’ll be judging. There’s a plein air event in Eagle, Idaho that I’ll be judging. That event kind of during the same time. I’ve got an upcoming show that I’m very honored to be a part of in Ojai, California. It’s called Ojai Ojai Mystique at the Ojai Valley Museum, and there’s 19 nationally renowned artists that’ll be that’ll have a major studio piece and a planar piece, and that’s going to be this coming April. I think it opens the 17th and runs through the beginning of August. I think I am brand new and very excited and truly honored to be part of the planner painters of America. They’re one of the first pioneer painting groups in the United States, and they’re having a show at the Thunderbird foundation of arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, called Heart of America. And it’s let me see my notes. I wrote the notes down here, coast to coast, inspiration from America’s premier outdoor painting group, and that’ll be in May, and opens the 15th at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio. And then excited to be going back there again for a show in September with my wild women group. I’m part of seven other amazing women artists. We had a dynamite show that opened last summer at a loom gallery in Montana, and now we’re going to have our second show at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio with my my buddies. I’m going to list them, Shannon Coots, Elizabeth Robbins, Laurie McNee, Stephanie, marzella, Cindy Baier and Ramona youngquist. And I think most of them have Faso websites, so we can find, if I say their names, you can find them on Fine Art Studio online, and, yeah, I’m represented in with my glorious I galleries in Carmel at Carmel fine art, Hugh Skelly gallery in bellboy Island, which is in California, Holton frames and studio, which is in Berkeley, California, wild horse gallery in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, ILLUM gallery West in Montana, and the Thunderbird Foundation for the Arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, that’s a lot.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:29

Yeah, work, yeah, yes. And then, do you mind telling us what your website is?

Kim Lordier: 1:13:37

Oh, yes. It’s way too long to spell out, but it’s my maid, my my maiden name and my married name. It’s Kim Fancher laurier.com and it takes you to the Fine Art Studio Online website that I have. But if you just Google my name, Kim Lordy, a because of Faso, it comes right to the top of of the of the the search engine, which I’m really grateful and then I’m on Instagram and Facebook. Instagram’s K Laurier art, and then Facebook is, I think, Kim dot Laurier. So there you have it. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:20

Yeah. Well, I will also be including all your links in the show notes so people can check out your gorgeous work. And of course, if they watch the video, they will see how beautiful your work is. And I’m so grateful to have had you on the show. Kim, thank you so so much.

Kim Lordier: 1:14:34

Thank you for having me, Laura. I really I’m very honored and appreciate this time and the opportunity, and I’m excited for your personal journey down your creative path. So thank you for sharing a tiny bit of that with me, of

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:50

course, and thank you for being, honestly, a lot of inspiration that I think I really needed so good. Yeah. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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The Art of Re-Creation

by Clint Watson, FASO Founder

The following piece is an excerpt from my forthcoming book The Sovereign Artist.

During a dark time when I experienced burnout, I lost my creative drive and my world went grey. I taught myself, intuitively, how to climb out of that hole and, through a slow process learned through trial-and-error, I was able to reopen my connection to my heart and soul again. My world slowly expanded and, as the veil began to lift, reality became more colorful and beautiful than I ever imaged it could be. That experience eventually led me to write The Sovereign Artist.

If one only creates, but does not re-create, the creative well will eventually run dry. You cannot constantly output. You must allow time for input. You must allow time for reflection. You must allow time for solitude. You must allow time for stillness. You must allow time for leisure.

Burnout sneaks up on you. It can be insidious because creative output is intoxicating and you will feel like you are on top of the world right up until the moment you crash. That’s what happened to me. There were, of course, subtle signs that the darkness was approaching. But, in the heat of productivity, such signs are easy to ignore.

It is the soul’s nature to give. If you ignore its needs and continually demand more creativity from it, it will give and give until it can give no more. You cannot continually take from your soul, that’s not how the soul-economy works. You must give back to your soul. You must feed it.

Learning how to re-create yourself is learning how to listen to the needs of your soul. You feed your body instinctively and you must learn to feed your soul intuitively. You must learn to recognize soul-hunger. And the things that feed your soul do not usually overlap with the way we live our modern lives, so you must feed your soul intentionally.

The burnout I experienced is a danger every artist faces and, I now know that I fell into the darkness because I had not yet learned an important lesson that all true masters must eventually learn: before you exhale, you must inhale.

There is a rhythm to nature and your soul is part of nature. You must learn to honor the natural rhythm of being a creative human being. There is a time for work. There is a time for leisure. There is a time for solitude. There is a time to be silent and a time to speak.1

Learning how to honor this rhythm is a major part of the creative path, and it is an important lesson in learning how to awaken. Modernity doesn’t teach this lesson. We worship productivity – the output phase, but we shortchange the leisure – the input phase. This is to our detriment and it is a foolish position.

All of our modern conveniences and our cult of productivity should provide us with more leisure. We live in a world that should provide more human flourishing than any era of the past. We each could live better than nobility of just a few hundred years ago. But, instead, we turned productivity into our god. We joined the cult of busyness. We decided to run faster and faster. We decided to ignore the needs of our souls. And we drown the resulting existential angst under a sea of drugs and distraction.

Modern culture has adopted the desperate creed of Boxer, the loyal workhorse in Animal Farm, who repeated his mantra until the very end: “I will work harder!”

Boxer worked himself to death, loyally serving the pigs who sold his body to a glue boiler to buy themselves whiskey.

Nietzsche foresaw our current dilemma when he said:

We labour at our daily work more ardently and thoughtlessly than is necessary to sustain our life because it is even more necessary not to have leisure to stop and think. Haste is universal because everyone is in flight from himself.

However, if we were wise, we would stop this “flight from ourselves” and, instead, we’d turn around and face ourselves. We’d face our angels and our demons. To do this, we must stop succumbing to the mental violence of perpetual activity and turn toward leisure.

If we were wise, we’d be actively expanding our leisure time. Both Plato and Aristotle considered leisure to be the highest good and a prerequisite for the achievement of the highest form of human flourishing, eudaemonia. What the wise ancient Greeks called eudaemonia overlaps with what we have been calling awakening.

What, then, is leisure? It is not “relaxation.” It is not “self-improvement.” It is not “vacation.” Spending your time binging Netflix is not leisure, it is distraction. It is the avoidance of leisure.

The Ancient Greeks used the word scholē (σχολή) for leisure, from which we derive the English word school. For them, leisure was a time for learning, for education. The Latin word for leisure originates from licēre, meaning “to be permitted” or “to be allowed,” reflecting the concept of having the freedom to do something. When we engage in leisure, it is a time for us to learn something and to do something. To learn and do what?

Leisure is the act of learning, from your soul, who you truly are and then doing what your soul truly needs. The learning is your soul’s gift to you. The doing is your gift back to your soul; it is the feeding; the giving back. Leisure is a time to re-create your Self; to liberate yourself. If afterwards, you understand who you truly are a bit better, it was leisure. If you don’t, it was something else.

For Aristotle, leisure consisted of activities such as contemplation, philosophical conversation, listening to music, cultivation of virtue, artistic pursuits, and related soul-inspiring activities.

Nietzsche, too, understood the importance of leisure, writing, “Active men are generally wanting in the higher activity…in this regard they are lazy…The active [men] roll as the stone rolls, in obedience to the stupidity of the laws of mechanics.”

When the nobility of yesteryear engaged in leisure, they didn’t doom-scroll on their phones. They practiced the liberal arts which, in modern terminology, are better called the liberating arts. The liberating arts are the activities which will liberate your true Self. These are the activities that allow you to see through your programming and find the Truth within. They are the very activities Aristotle considered to be scholē — leisure. The liberating arts are the methods by which we awaken. You can see why Plato, Aristotle and Nietzsche considered leisure to be mandatory to those who wish to be born again into the full power and purpose of their humanity. The true artist must become such a person.

Real freedom requires the freedom to say “no” to the constant tyranny of the task list; freedom to say “no” to busyness and “yes” to meaning. Being hard to reach is a feature, not a bug. You must have time to be silent; to ponder; to be unavailable.

If practice is honing your ability to play the instrument of your soul, then leisure is the spiritual maintenance of the instrument. Just as a muscle grows during recovery rather than during the lift itself, artistic mastery deepens during periods of renewal. You are the instrument. Practice stresses you. Leisure restores and refines you. Creation is the period when your soul flies. Re-creation is the period when your soul grows.

Therefore, the final thing we must each learn, to become a master, is the art of renewal; the art of re-creating ourself; the art of leisure.

Julia Cameron, in her seminal book, The Artist’s Way, presents her liberating path for the creative person. She proposes only two activities that are non-negotiable: The weekly artist date and the morning pages. These two activities honor the circadian rhythms of our soul. The weekly artist date provides scheduled recurring time for leisure; for input; for solitude; for contemplation. And the morning pages provide daily time for output, for creation of a sort.

Actually, the morning pages can serve as both input and output functions and are uniquely valuable. They serve as a time of reflection and contemplation and yet, often, the soul produces insights during such journaling that, especially for writers, eventually work their way into finished pieces. By balancing creative input and output, we can deepen our connection to our soul’s needs and avoid burnout.

True masters understand that the creative life is a rhythm. It is not all output. Inhalation precedes exhalation. In fact, this is the universal rhythm. Yin and Yang. Contraction and expansion. Going within, and sharing without. All work and no play makes Jack an empty burned out boy.

If you do burn out, there are many things you can do, not only to discover your true Self, your essence, but also to reconnect with your Muse.

If you are looking for ideas on how to do this; how to engage in leisure, I have provided a comprehensive resource of ideas for renewing your soul — re-creating yourself — in Appendix I: Methods of Re-Creation. The methods I outline in Appendix I are the methods I taught myself that I mentioned at the opening of this chapter. They are the methods I intuitively discovered and utilized during my own dark night of the soul.

While the comprehensive list appears in the appendix, I’d like to briefly mention two of the most important needs of your soul: solitude and nature…

To be continued in my next post.

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PS - This is one of the themes I explore in my forthcoming book, The Sovereign Artist: The Liberating Power of the Creative Act. If interested, you can join the waitlist here.

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Today’s Article

The following article was written by Debra Keirce, a regular contributing author to The BoldBrush Letter.

Is it Inspiration or Espionage?

How much have you “borrowed” lately? Have you ever engaged in full-blown artistic espionage?

I’m talking about the high-stakes stuff.

• Entering a gallery opening with the calculated intent of grilling a successful artist on their studio logistics

• Visiting a free demonstration, not to see the artist create, but to have them give you critiques and advice that will catapult your career

• Attending a workshop not to learn, but to collect recipes and formulas you can implement

• Purchasing an artwork with the sole intention of reverse-engineering it

Have you pulled off any of these heists?

Of course you have. We’re all looking for the shortcut, the skeleton key, the hidden map. We’re often taught that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery and the fastest way to a successful career. But is that true? Is it more lucrative to be a student or a spy?

I am not a 17th Century Master

In the 1600’s, artists often borrowed from each other. Look and you will see they painted dresses and curtains with the exact same fold patterns. From their subject matter, it appears they all owned the same chandelier, and the same dog.

I personally love the work of Gerrit Dou. The man was a master of moody, low-key interiors and whispering hues. Me? I lean into a bold explosion of color that screams for attention on my easel.

I recently spent weeks forcing myself into Mr. Dou’s world, trying to compose a painting he would approve of. I learned a lot, but I also nearly lost my mind before admitting the truth. I am not a Dou. I adore his work, but trying to inhabit his creative soul was like wearing shoes three sizes too big. You cannot “steal” a style and make it work if it isn’t aligned with who you are.

We aren’t photocopiers. We are unique, chaotic, animated paint splatters. Rarely, in my experience, is a work of art I admire aligned with who I am as an artist. I can learn from those works, and I can copy those works, but I cannot honestly create pieces exactly like the artists themselves would.

When the Spy Becomes the Target

I’ve been on both sides of the canvas. I’ve watched students launch entire series based on a single idea I shared. I’ve had “friends” approach my collectors, gallery owners and curators behind my back, with works they obviously created using mine as inspiration.

But the strangest part? The resentment. I’ve actually angered people by refusing to hand over the secret sauce for free.

I’m happy to answer simple questions, but I won’t give a private workshop outside a teaching venue. Not only is it unfair to my paying students, but I can’t answer complex questions without hours of context. And half the time, I’m still experimenting! If I haven’t worked the bugs out of a technique, I’m not going to hand you a faulty map.

Apparently, “no answer” is an offensive answer. Some people assume I’m sitting on a secret stash of gold and refusing to share. They get snarky. It’s a little creepy, honestly. And in the end, I don’t think it is as valuable to them as they wish.

The Truth About the “Secret Sauce”

Here is my reality. Stealing wholesale rarely works. It’s like copying answers off the person sitting next to you during a driver’s test, only to discover that you are both taking different tests. (No, I never actually did that... Thought about it though!)

Sure, borrow a sales tactic or a composition trick, but if it doesn’t resonate with your soul, it won’t impress your audience. At the end of the day, espionage might give you a quick thrill, but true successes comes from owning your unique journey. Laugh at the flops, celebrate the wins, and remember that the best “secrets” are the ones you discover yourself.

Continue practicing with intention. Work through the torturous learning periods. Keep at it until it feels invigorating and oddly addictive.

What about you? Spill your funniest art spy story in the comments. Let’s turn this into a confessional!

Leave a comment

PS — Editor’s Note: Please support artists and help us get more exposure for the artists featured in this newsletter by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁, or by leaving a comment. The more engagement we get, the more widely these images get shown. Help us support human artists and push back against the encroachment of AI!

PPS - We’re currently running a spring special for The FASO Way subscribers: save 52% on your first year of a FASO Artist Website. If you’ve been procrastinating creating or moving your website, now is the time. Sign up here.

Debra Keirce
www.DebKArt.com

Join me each month for free updates on this art adventure at
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We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

We are soon changing the name of this podcast from The BoldBrush Show to The FASO Podcast. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush, over the years we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes much confusion for most people. So, to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO.

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For today’s episode compilation we explore how artists can reframe rejection as a normal, even necessary, part of a creative career rather than a verdict on their worth. Our past guests describe rejection as an ego blow that must be met with humility, a willingness to learn, and a long-term mindset of steady improvement. Several artists share stories of painful setbacks—unsold shows, declined gallery submissions, ignored emails—but explain how these experiences fueled their determination to work harder and get better. They emphasize building a “thick skin” while still remaining open to tough, honest critique, using feedback to refine both craft and professionalism. The conversation also highlights that rejection isn’t always about the artist’s shortcomings; sometimes the fit, timing, or other person’s vision just isn’t right yet. Throughout, our past guests stress perseverance, self-awareness, and staying committed to the work itself as the healthiest way to survive and grow from rejection. All of the episodes mentioned in this compilation are linked in our show notes.

24 Kelly Eden

46 Hillary Scott

60 Gladys Roldan-de-Moras

63 Noah Buchanan

76 Chris Navarro

87 Johanna Spinks

101 Joseph Gyurcsak

121 Paul Batch

140 Donald Yatomi

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Transcript:

Hillary Scott: 0:00

You don’t quit, the only way to fail is if you really quit. And I think a lot of people, they get discouraged to the point where they do quit, and then, of course, the narrative is like, oh, it’s not it’s not possible. Well, it’s not possible because you quit and you didn’t stay the course, and you didn’t do everything that you could possibly do to make this an option for yourself.

Donald Yatomi: 0:20

I don’t think anybody can teach you how to take rejection, but you got to be ready for rejections, and however you process that, handle that, it comes, rejection comes, you know, even to the most successful people.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:39

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world. In order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode compilation, we explore how artists can reframe rejection as a normal, even necessary, part of a creative career, rather than a verdict on their worth. Our past guests describe rejection as an ego blow that must be met with humility, a willingness to learn and a long term mindset of steady improvement. Several artists share stories of painful setbacks, unsold shows, declined, gallery submissions, ignored emails, but explain how these experiences fueled their determination to work harder and get better. They emphasize building a thick skin while still remaining open to tough, honest critique, using feedback to refine both craft and professionalism, the conversation also highlights that rejection isn’t always about the artist’s shortcomings. Sometimes the Fit timing or other person’s vision just isn’t right yet throughout our past guests stress, perseverance, self awareness and staying committed to the work itself as the healthiest way to survive and grow from rejection, all of the episodes mentioned in this compilation are linked in our show notes.

Kelly Eden: 2:05

Build relationships. Show people you care in any relationship you make on your career path. Show people that they’re special. Art collectors, fellow artists, art galleries, etc. If you start showing in galleries. You know, you can always be honest about your work and experience and invite feedback. So if you’re not sure, you know what price point your work would sell for, you can always ask the curator their opinion. You know, assure them you won’t be offended, and you’re just looking for feedback. And also this is a tough one, but get comfortable with rejection. It happens a lot for artists rejection. Rejection for artists is a spicy type of ego death that can be very, very debilitating. So you cannot let it wound you. You have to put a band aid on it and just keep going. Being an artist is one of the most complicated careers there is because there is so much personal passion behind our work. You know, we are sensitive by nature, and that can make it really, really hard to not take it personally when our work is shut down. So on the flip side of that, artists can also be a little egotistical, so I would say, don’t ever think that you’re too good to learn more. You should be getting better every year, and you should be learning from all of your peers one way or another.

Hillary Scott: 3:36

There are certain subjects, don’t get me wrong, there are subjects that at some point in my career, I would love to be able to tackle them, but I know that there’s just no way that I’ll do them justice at this point. So I just kind of take it just just things that are just outside my comfort zone, you know, that are just a little bit uncomfortable for me, but I know I can do them, and I think I have a good idea of that at this point. Like, you know, there was a time back when I was an illustrator, and my taste was up here and my skills were way down here, and that was very frustrating for me. And I think that was the breaking point where I was like, I actually do need to sign up for some classes, because I really don’t know what I’m doing here. And it took me a long time to get to that point, because I think when you’re younger, there’s a little bit of arrogance, you know, like, you’re just like, Oh, I’m like, I know what I’m doing here. And then at some point, you realize that you’re actually not that good as you think you are. And that’s, you know, it’s a wake up call. It’s, it’s a little bit painful to admit that, but, you know, I did at some point, I was like, You know what? I I definitely need some help, because, you know, if somebody shows me how to do something, I just kind of learn. I learn a whole lot faster by swallow my pride and just going and learning things that I thought I knew but I really didn’t know. So that was a great learning experience for me. And you know, what else I feel like? The more like, the more I learn. Or it’s like, the harder it is. And I know that was another quote, that it’s like, the the more I forget what the exact quote is. But it’s like, painting is so easy when you don’t know how to do it. And I think that was for me, I was like, I was a little bit delusional about my ability for a long time back, mostly my 20s, early 30s. So I’ve been at this latest, you know my landscape chapter for nine years now, so I’m, you know, next year will be 10 years of painting the landscapes, and it has been a long, slow journey. But I just, you know, I’ve learned so much, and it’s been painful. There’s, as I said, there’s been a lot of failures, a lot of rejection, you know, but that’s just part of the journey that’s, there’s no, like, easy way. There’s no shortcut to getting anywhere really worth going. It really resonates because I spent, oh, my God, I started working when I was like, I don’t know, like, 1314, you know, all the jobs right into teaching, right out of college, just to make money, I was a teacher. And then, of course, I took a big detour, and I was like, Oh, the art’s not working out. You know, I was kind of listening to the voices, the negative voices that were saying that art is not a feasible career. And I did fall prey to that a little bit. And I did take a detour, went back to school for something totally different, just to have a sensible job. Of course, that didn’t work out, because I think eventually, yes, a sensible job. And I just, I resented it so much. I’m like, I just always felt like, you know, I’m here to paint, and I’m like, nothing is easy in life. Like, if you no matter what career you’re trying to do, like, if you want to be a doctor, you have to go to school for, I don’t know how many years, like, you know, no matter what the career path you’re trying to do, if it’s worth it in the end, if it’s, if it’s, it’s going to be difficult. And this has been no different. It’s just a different path, and it’s been so worth it, though, like to get to this point and just be able to say to the people who told me I could never do this, and it’s just like, it’s gratifying. But yeah, there’s been $0 set. $0 shows there’s just been, as I said, so much rejection. It’s just the just a lot of struggles along the way. But of course, those make it worth it too, because you don’t quit, the only way to fail is if you really quit. And I think a lot of people, they get discouraged to the point where they do quit, and then, of course, the narrative is like, oh, it’s not it’s not possible. Well, it’s not possible because you quit and you didn’t stay the course, and you didn’t do everything that you could possibly do to make this an option for yourself. Yeah, and I just, I didn’t want to feel like a victim. I felt like, you know, these jobs were like, everyone was saying, you know, this is just how it is. It’s like, No one values the art. And I was like, Well, I’m just going to be a victim to this. Then this, this narrative that it’s like, you have to and I’m not a victim. Like, I don’t have that mindset. My mindset is like, I’m going to fight, I’m going to I’m going to, you know, I’m going to win, even if it takes me, like, 10 years, 20 years. I don’t care how long it takes me, it’s just, I’m a fighter. And when I have a will, when I say I’m going to do something, I I do it. I just do everything in my power. And I don’t make up excuses, you know, I don’t. That’s just how I am. And as far as making a living or making money off your work, I think it’s such a slow, such a slow process. It’s going to be slower than you want it to be. It’s just because these skills to build to a level where you can consistently put out work that’s good and saleable. It’s gonna it’s just gonna take. It’s going to take a while, but you always have to realize why you’re doing it. It shouldn’t be just to make, you know, money. When I don’t think any artist is in this just to make money, I think that it’s you have to love the process of it. You have to always remember why you’re doing it, and just enjoy the process of creating art and just celebrate the small victories. You know, it’s not going to be like, all of a sudden you go from like, you don’t paint at all. You don’t know what you’re doing, you know, you go plan your painting one time, and then you go to selling like a $10,000 painting, like, it doesn’t work that way. You go out there, you just, kind of, you’re just, it’s a career, it’s a marathon, not a sprint. So, you know, and I will say this is that while you are trying to make money, I know a lot of artists, there’s no shame in having a side gig, like, you know, something, a part time job. You may hate it, like I hated mine, but you know, you it’s a necessary part of the thing. And then knowing that eventually, you know, if you really put the time in and you’re really invested in your work, you can eventually break free of it and just, you know it’s over time you’ll make you’ll make that progress, and your work will get more attention, and you’ll get higher end collectors, and you’ll get more visibility. But you just can’t rush it, because there’s just only you can only you learn some. Much so fast, like, I just think that it’s a very it’s a learning curve. You know, whenever you’re learning a new skill, it’s just going to take a while, and it’s going to take, you know, failed paintings and a lot of, again, rejection for shows. And so you have to build up a thick skin. You have to build you have to, if you don’t, you’re going to, you’re not going to survive, you know, and be able. And the other thing I would say is be, this was kind of come into play with the question about, you know, when I was getting instruction, and it’s like, be able to take a tough critique, because I didn’t like the people that were like, oh, it’s really, it’s so good. It’s like, you know, I just, I tell me that it sucks. Like, just tell me why it sucks. Like I need to be. I need tough coaching, because that’s the only way you’re going to get better. If somebody is brutally honest with you, we don’t need to sugarcoat things. I didn’t, you know, I never really learned from professors teachers that would be too nice, and they were afraid to insult me. And I know there are people that get very offended, and they’re like, Oh my God. I’m like, I suck. You have to be willing to take instruction. And, you know, have the brutal truth, and you know, spoken to you.

Gladys Roldan-de-Moras: 11:13

That’s a really good question I want to tell you, and I share this with a lot of people, because it relates to many other professions, especially musicians, you know. But I started little by little, I started selling when I was telling you I was teaching, I was also selling paintings that I was doing that I don’t even know. Want to know where they’re at, you know, because sometimes you wish it would disappear. I don’t even know where that but at second hand furniture stores, that’s how I started. My paintings would sell for 50 $100 at all. And I remember traveling to Mexico once, and we would go all the time to visit the family. And my son, David, who’s a wrong, you know, a man now with his own family, young children. He was, like, four or five years old, and we were walking down the the main aisle when, when the airports were all open, you know, where there was no, no, you can’t go past. You know, back then probably, you were probably his age, but, but anyways, there was a local gallery that used to display paintings on the main on the main corridor as you were going into the gate, and my my son pulls at me, says, Mom, mom, there’s your painting. And I’m like, what? And I turned around and I look at my painting. I said, Why is my painting here? I sold it at the second hand furniture store for, you know, whatever. And this one was like, I think $500 I had jumped like from there to, you know, I remember it was at least double or something. And I was about to leave, and I said, when I come back, I’m going to call and see what this is about. And as soon as I got back, the owner, she says to me, she says, Well, we’ve been selling your paintings very often. I thought it was you that was bringing it. And I said, No, it’s not me. But so I remember, because I was selling for $100 that I made a jump to 500 you know, or something like that. But it was big for me. Way back, it was big, but I have been very careful to sell my paintings, and be little by little, raising my prices, raising my price, never coming back down because I wanted you know, you think about collectors, and you say, well, if they are willing to buy one of my paintings and pay whatever amount you know, you don’t want to know that. Oh, well, you know, unfortunately, some artists will say, Well, if you buy it at my studio, it’ll cost you less or than if you buy it so and so, which is so wrong, you know, so wrong in so many levels. So I have been very, very careful through the years that as I moved from little galleries to finally another gallery to another, that whatever you buy at the gallery for whatever it is, you’re going to buy it in my studio for whatever the same amount I’ve never so I’ve been very careful, which has helped me, I guess, Because galleries also get burned about people, because now with social media, any person interested in your work, well, they go Google you, and then they can find you. What I do, I usually do, is I ask people, where did they if that happens to me? Somebody caught Where did you hear from me? Of course, you never know if they’re going to tell you the truth or not. They could say, Well, I went to this gal. And I heard about you, and I Googled you. But what I’ve done is, when they mention a gallery or another one, I always call the gallery and I tell them, Listen, I don’t know if you know this person, but this person has contacted me, and if I do sell, you know, you know, I’ll you will get your but anyway, so what I’ve been is I’ve been very, very, very careful. And when I started selling, it was hard to let go some of the paintings. It really was. Now I find it as an honor that anybody would consider, you know, to add their painting to their collection. But I have been very careful. I have been rejected many times, and that is fine. I just recently, because I still have my old studio in my house. Before I built this studio, there’s still a lot of stuff I haven’t moved over, and I came across it. I came across a letter from a gallery which I had submitted my work and and the gallery wrote me a letter, a very nice letter that said, you know, we just don’t feel we are a fit for you now. And that was, you know, I took it was very hard because, you know, you’re an artist. We put our hearts in our sleeves. Thankfully, we’re not like performers. At least, you know that we have to sing there in live. At least we can paint then go take it over, and then take rejection, kind of, you know, in private or where, but it’s a very, it’s very sensitive. But I found this letter, and I found a letter of that same gallery inviting me, okay, now I was so happy that I felt, I must say, with years different said, you know, the gallery was right. I wasn’t, probably ready for that, or maybe they didn’t believe I. Don’t know, you know. But the thing is that it’s hard to take rejection, but I, you know, I have taken, I have had shows where I did not sell one piece of opinion. So we have to learn that, at least in my life, it’s not all been wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. You know, it’s, it’s learning, it’s trying to be strong and to make not take it personally that well, okay, they didn’t like my work. Well, it’s not because not You’re not good. Like another friend artist says to me, when you have a show and a painting doesn’t sell, well, it’s just that the right collector hasn’t come across. And it’s true, it’s true. It’s happened to me, man, I find a home. I send it somewhere, like they’ll find a home. So so it was very rewarding moving into selling my paintings I was able to afford, you know, buying my own, you know, because, you know, this, this, this business, takes a lot of investment. These paintings that are back here, actually, most of these are G click copies. Some are originals, but this few, and there’s more to where there. And the only reason I have those here, they don’t have the beautiful frames that I usually I had very simple frames, but we know that frames are expensive and all of that, so it’s you have to put money to make more. But it’s been very rewarding. Sometimes it’s been hard. It hasn’t been easy. I still remember going, somebody told me once, how did you get into the Santa Fe market, you know, which was a very hard market to get into it. It was many years ago, and back then, I remember doing this, and I made CDs. It was in social media, or here’s my website. It was just, really, just started, I made these CDs with music, and it had, like a a show of my paintings. And at the end it would stop and say, looking for representation and and my name, and, you know, my phone number. And then I put them in one of those old, you know, covers. And I literally went through all Canyon Road and drop and drop them off. And one gallery called me, and that put my foot on Canyon Road, and I will still remember, I will still remember that, but it was, it’s a hard, you know, it’s not an easy road, but it is a rewarding, you know, wrote, and these are the kind of things i A lot of people come and ask me about and, and I try to be as honest and help them. And why not? You know, people have been so gracious to share with me the way they did it, or be it technically, or, you know, some experience about this business of being an artist. I I’m I’m very happy when I have time to be able to talk to them and give me give them my advice. And now I must say that I’ve been very fortunate that I have never submitted to a show. I have always been invited. It, for which I’m very grateful. I have been invited to so many other art shows, which I wish I could say yes. And you know, you work so hard, all your Oh, I would like to be in the show. This would be amazing. And then it comes to a point where, yeah, you are invited. But can you do it? Can you really paint that many paintings in such you know, and it has been very hard to call people or write them and say, I’m sorry I can’t do it as much as I want. And you hope that you’re not burning bridges, but it’s the honest truth. Just like galleries, I’m waiting for you to present something new, but I don’t know if I’m getting slower as I’m getting older in age, or what it is, or made more complex paintings, but I don’t paint that quick. I paint every day, long, long. Day, 1012, hours, not 10, no, maybe up to 10 hours, but, but I don’t paint that quick, so it’s hard to say no, but you have to, otherwise you’re sacrificing in my point, in my in my experience, you’re sacrificing quality. And I just recently had to ask one of these major shows, if I could sit out for this year because I have so many commissions that I have that have been requested from me. And I said, Yes, and I need to deliver these. So they were very nice, and they said, Yeah, that I hope just you don’t just not show up anymore. I said, No, I just really need one year. But it’s But getting back to the like the business thing, I always tell my students, be very careful, that if you are going to go up on your prices, that you’ll be very careful, and you do not come back because collector’s world is very small, galleries world is very small, and you have to be very professional about this, so that people have credibility in your work, you know. And so I have been that way and and I couldn’t be happier to where I’m at right now.

Laura Arango Baier: 22:19

Applebrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast.

Noah Buchanan: 24:00

um, that’s a great question. I I think for me, because I love the narrative in in in traditional painting, realism, representational painting, whatever you want to call it, that’s always been my biggest inspiration. You know, even just from looking at storybooks and illustrations as a child and later, reading all of the classics that were illustrated by NC Wyeth. So I have a strong love for the narrative, but I think traditional illustrators like NC Wyeth, like Norman Rockwell, Howard Pyle, who I, who I regard as masters, you know, they I think the role of the illustrator is to give the story in a more straightforward way. But they don’t always do it that way. I mean, sometimes they just depict the they illustrate the story being told. You know. Because that’s their role. They’re an illustrator. Their image accompanies a novel or story of some kind. I like it. For me. I like it when there’s a piece of the narrative is there, but there’s also a mystery waiting to be investigated or solved by the viewer. Or maybe it’s never solved. Maybe they maybe it leaves them with the feeling of mystery. I think that’s important to leave the viewer with, with either a mild or strong dose of mystery to the work, even if the painter has a specific intention in mind, and what they’re doing and what they’re what narrative they’re telling. That’s where my interest in narrative artwork falls. I think, I think a lot about dreams and how dreams are narratives of types, but dreams are fascinating narratives because they can, they can take, you know, a sudden left turn, or they can have multiple outcomes, or the narrative can change, but and yet still feel cohesive with its initial story. I mean, you know, dreams are, can be wild and crazy and and a lot of people just count them, you know. But I think a lot of artists look at their dreams very seriously. So for me, when I make narrative paintings, I think about dreams a lot, because something that I think is true, something I feel is true about dreams, is that it makes sense that this is true to me, because it’s it’s happening in your mind, happening in your brain when you have a dream. Everything that happens in that dream, everybody that you encounter and interact with, is really just you wearing, you know, a disguise or a mask or a different outfit or cloaked in, you know, the skins of another animal or monster. And so when we make a painting, a multiple figure, narrative painting, we’re really tapping into that flavor of a dream, or playing all these roles, you know, and we’re looking at all these different aspects of our own persona, and then we’re asking our viewer to do the same, of course, because I don’t think narrative Painting is about the painter themselves. It shouldn’t be, I don’t think narrative painting, you know. I think we don’t want to create the impression that an artist is really just narcissistic and completely engaged in their own neuroses. You know. I think it’s important for an artist to to work with all of these themes and traditions, the Jungian one, the campbellian one, but to realize that there’s a duty when making narrative art, to always pull the audience in to make this can make it powerful for them. You know, to say, well, let’s say this painting embraces or grapples with issues of abandonment or or rejection and some way, or, you know, maybe that leads into topics of isolation. It’s important for the artist to say, you know, even though they’ve experienced that themselves in their own life, to not make it a soap opera painting about the way, the exact way in which Dave experienced it, but to really zoom out in the narrative and say, How can I deal with themes of rejection, isolation, abandonment? I’m just picking ones at random, right? Big human theme that will pull in the whole audience. Everyone that’s going to look at this can find a way in to resonate with what’s going on in the story in the painting, or the characters and what they’re doing in the painting, to find a way to see themselves in the painting. I think, for me, narrative artworks, really, they they have that they have that what’s the word, that requirement that they need, that that accountability to speak to the audience, to pull in the audience. And you know, we don’t need to give them a fully scripted version of what’s happening in the painting. A mysterious version of what’s happening is really better, you know, because it does it just, it just tickles human intrigue more, but it also might leave openings or seats in the audience for the audience to feel, for the individual viewer to feel like they can now inhabit the you know, and be part of the audience, be part of the the or really take part in the performance of what’s happening. Feel. They’re in there. I hope. I hope and strive for those feelings in my painting. I’m not saying that I can do that, or that I always do that. I think I do it sometimes when I’m lucky, but I always think about it and and that’s something I want to have happen in my paintings. Definitely.

Chris Navarro: 30:16

I don’t believe in overthinking things like I remember that lady asked me. She goes, Yeah, I want to sculpt a dinosaur. I want light to come out of it. And I said, Yeah, never even in my mind I would come up with that ideas, 90 year old lady. And she says, I want to leave a big monument to the state of Wyoming at the Tate museum. And I want it to be a dinosaur, light coming out of it. And I thought, wow, that is what a request. Well, if I’m gonna do a dinosaur, I’m gonna do it a T Rex. And if I’m gonna do light out of it, I know I gotta have a negative cavity in there, so I’ll make it half flesh and half skeletal. So when you look at one side of the whole sculpture, it looks like a completely fleshed out T Rex. Then you’d spin it around and it would be a total skeleton. And I don’t know it was kind of it was a cool concept. It had Art com light coming out of and she’s the same lady also commissioned me to do, I did a 17 foot tall Jesus Christ, and was Sacred Heart of Jesus, and she wanted light to come out of his heart. Designed that, and it was a challenge to do that. So I’ve only done two sculptures of light coming out of him, and Mary. Alice Tobin was the Benefactor commissioned me to do that. And and I know the last piece I was working on, she passed away before I got it done for but you know, you know, artists need those kind of collectors and sponsors to do a lot of these big projects, you know. And I’m always grateful for that, because, I mean, I get to make a living doing something. I do for nothing, you know, and I get paid for it, and I’ve been able to make a good living at it. But I don’t want to take it for granted, because granted, because I know what it’s like not to have nothing, and I know what it’s like to be at the bottom, looking your way up, trying to, like, go into five galleries, and they all turning you down because they don’t want to represent you because, you know, it’s not good enough. I know what that’s like. It’s not a good feeling, but it fires you up always. You know, I’m trying to help other artists out, and I tell them, I let rejection work for me, but someone tells me that my work’s not good enough, or I can’t get in this show, or or I get rejected for this, or get a rejection letter for applying for a big show, or a gallery turns me down. Says, No, you know, I say, Oh yeah, okay, look, give me a chance. I’m gonna work a little harder and get it right, you know. And then, I mean, the first time I went to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, shredding in galleries was before I became a professional. I had like, five or six little sculptures, and I went in in my little portfolio, and I knocked on five doors. I started at the best Gallery, and went down to the other ones. I said, Well, these are the five galleries I’d want to be in, they all told me now. And I went, my wife was waiting for me in the car, and I went back, and I said, You know what, I’m not good enough yet to get in these galleries. I want to go home and work harder. That’s how I took it. I didn’t say, like, oh golly, I can’t, you know this and that. I mean, you’re not going to please everybody with your work, and you shouldn’t try to, you know what? You should try to do the very best. And that’s the only thing I can really do. I can’t do anything else, and I try not to let others but what’s going on in someone else’s mind? Really, I got no control of that, but I can try to control my mindset, and that’s kind of how I look at it. And I’ve been fortunate to make a living at it with that kind of mindset. You know, I know there’s a lot of young artists, because I get approached by all these artists that want to be represented at my own gallery, and some at my own gallery in Sedona, and we only have probably about 15 artists, and I have to take somebody down to put somebody new up, and it’s hard rejecting these young artists that come in there and they bring their portfolios, because I know what it’s like, you know. And I tell them that, I said, man, good luck. Because you know what? Just keep working hard. I said, the more that you know how you get better. Make lots of art, and the more art you make, the better you’re going to get. I mean, I don’t know any other simple way to explain it, but the sheer number of hours you put in the process, that’s how you get better. There’s no quick fixes, there’s not no gallery, there’s not no art agent, there’s not no article in some magazine that’s going to make your career. It’s a lifelong struggle. You just keep doing and go into the next thing, you know, like, when I finish a big sculpture, I put that aside. Don’t even think about it anymore. I go start on another one, you know. And that’s, I think that’s the way I’ve approached it. I’m not saying My way is doing it is the right for everybody. It’s just worked for me.

Johanna Spinks: 34:14

And, you know, that’s the other thing that we as artists, we have to learn to handle the disappointments, you know. And Ray Kinsler talked about that a lot, you know. And one story that he would say was he had a two certificates on his mantelpiece. Same painting entered into a competition the year before, rejection letter. The next year, he got the gold medal for the painting, and he kept it side by side, those two certificates to remind him that you really you have to enter art competitions, I guess, but you can’t judge yourself by it too much. You know you’re dealing with somebody else’s, the judge’s idea of of who you are, and you know whether they like this, that or the other.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 34:55

I think as far as the journey of the interior. Careers, I had a opportunity was I applied for a contest to be on the Forbes ranch out west to American artists in 2006 2005 maybe. And so I I I didn’t get in that contest, but then I was asked by Steven Doherty, who, at the time, was the publisher of the American artist magazine, that he have something better for you. It was a long rejection letter. Usually those letters I like, Okay, you didn’t get in whatever, but this was a long rejection layer. I said, I better read it. So we read it, and it said, I have something really cool for you, maybe more interesting than the trip you overlapped with another artist, but I really want to do a full feature article on you about your interiors, and so I I said, Oh yeah, that’s fine. So I had an opportunity where I had my laptop, and I happened to be traveling from New Jersey to Boston, and I wrote the entire article on the train, and then I submitted to him. I was really excited about this opportunity, so I wrote the article and submitted it to me. Loved it, and when he published that article, it put me on the it put me on the national level. It exposed me to many different galleries and and you know, at that time, if you got an article from Steven Doherty, it was a very important turning point in your career. It was a big deal. So it did make a big difference. And then I had galleries calling me about my interiors. And my interiors basically started with painting situations in my house where I had my family members. And then I was trying to record the different light situation, this and that. And then I had broadened it to, you know, social situations outside the studio, different places, notable environments, and those type of things. But the journey right now has been very interesting, because I’ve been I started about two and a half years ago, and I have some of them in the back of me right now, but I’ve been painting my studio over and over again in different way, light and situations and all that. Well, I I likened it to Giorgio Morandi. Giorgio Morandi really never left his studio, and he painted the still lifes for about 50 years. And I thought, wow, that’s very interesting. Wyeth never really left his properties, and he kept finding more and more and for more more subject information and growing that story and studio is not very big, but I post these things on Instagram. People think I have this huge studio or whatever, but it’s just the interesting way the light travels in here, and I purposely let the mess grow in different ways, and then I tried to record it again and again and again, and I just did another one last night. So it’s just a continual journey. I don’t know what is going to come out of those yet, because I’d have probably about 40 of those paintings so far. Some of them I have sold off already, but I have a good amount of them. So I don’t know where that’s going yet, but I just keep following it and doing it. I’ve entered some in competitions and all that business, and it’s been an interesting journey because and a great lesson for artists, um hearing this that you know, if you do a one off of a subject matter, that’s great, and it turns out great. And then you want to say you want to move on, but there is something about um, staying in a certain vein, and really work in that vein, and that starts to get really deep. And that’s exactly what has happened with the Studio series. Thing I it’s, it’s been a quite an interesting journey, and I’ve been getting deeper and deeper into it. It’s, it keeps moving along in such interesting in different ways, different life, different moods, different that, you know, it’s just unbelievable when I start to include myself in it at times. So I’m just having a lot of fun with that. Yes, I work on landscapes and other things I am best known in. For collecting my interiors, of course, because that that’s something that is really one of the spots where I really do flourish well. So, yeah,

Paul Batch: 40:10

especially, I mean, I still get rejection now, like, and there’s like, what I like to move up, you know, sure, you know, at some point would I like to, I don’t know, maybe do a museum show or, you know, have, like, you know, that kind of thing. That’d be awesome, you know. And what kind of work would I want to do for something like that? And my head’s starting to go to these places now, because I’m getting a little older and like, what I want to say through my landscapes and my portraits and things like that. You know, that becomes more but early on, yeah, you got to be able to get rejected constantly, all the time, by everybody. You know. You know, your family is going to reject you, your friends are going to reject you. The person that owns the gallery is not even going to talk to you. You know, like, I’ve that stuff early on is really difficult. You got to just get okay with it. I didn’t come from an area where there was galleries, or I don’t come from an income bracket where people buy actual art, so I had to kind of learn about that stuff, you know. And in school all that stuff was dirty. Nobody wants to talk about it, you know, it’s like, I want to sell, I want to be on our is, you know, it’s like, no, no, just, you know, I don’t know, get a grant, go live off of some commune or something, and paint pictures. And it’s like I wasn’t gonna fit me. I, you know, I didn’t want to do that stuff. Not that there’s anything wrong with it. It’s just I didn’t, you know, sugar, I just lost what was in my head. What were we talking about?

Laura Arango Baier: 41:51

I lost it too. I’m being honest. But it’s great. It’s great. We were talking

Paul Batch: 41:56

about rejection, rejection, rejection. Yes, lots of rejection. So feel free to cut me off at any time. I saw a couple of things out there so early on, like one of the I’ll bring up some of my more painful moments. I was at the local art gallery. It’s in West Hartford in Connecticut, and I had been there for a couple years teaching and doing stuff or whatever. But anyways, so they’re having one of these nights. It’s a fundraiser night, and they’re like, Hey, Paul, you want to go paint outside, and then we’ll raffle off your painting at the end. I’m like, Yeah, sure. That sounds fun. You know that I would do anything for them at that point? You know? I was like, absolutely. So I go out there, my wife comes. We weren’t married yet. I don’t think we’re married. I don’t think we’re married. I don’t know. We might have been married. No kids yet, though. So I’m out there and I’m painting, and, you know, a couple people come by and, you know, paintings done, pop it in the frame. You got to go stand up. You got to auction it off, right? I know maybe like 30 people in the audience. Nobody wants to bid shit on my painting. So I got me standing up there next to the thing I worked on, and like, the price drops, like, and I’m still standing there, and nobody wants to bid and I’m just got that stupid look on my face like, fucking kill me. Now, you know, I am done. Just let me go die off in the corner somewhere. This is the most horrible thing in my life. Nobody wants to pay like, 200 bucks for this thing, like, seriously, like the cost of the frame. No, nobody. It’s not even worth it at that point, you know. So, I mean, I did. I did all kinds of stuff like that early on, just trying to put myself out there, you know, just because you got to go out there and people got to tell you no, and you got to take it, and you got to say, I don’t care. I’m going to get better tomorrow. Frick this my the gallery I work with now, the most is probably at is, is Addison Art Gallery at the Cape Helen, if you’re watching, hello. I love telling this one too, because it took this is, this is nine in sign language. We don’t do three. This is nine. So it took me nine years of emails to this woman before she would talk to me. So every year, while I’m at home with the baby and trying to, like, hey, I can do David casting, sure. Well, I’m in that headset. I’m like, I was getting American art collector and some of these magazines and stuff, and I saw a painting by Paul Schulenburg that I liked, and it was a like a bathrobe hanging off a door, you know, no big deal, right? But the lights hitting it nice. I like the way it’s painted. And I’m reading the article, and he seems nice. And I noticed a gallery, and then the woman working at the gallery, Helen, she owns a gallery. It’s her gallery. And then I see them again in the same magazine, you know. And I’m like, and it started to put it together. Like, wow, she’s really working for this dude. Like, I need, I need a Helen. I need this woman, you know. So I. I ended up having a list of about 2025, galleries that I would email every like six months or so. And I would just send out all my paintings, or whatever, all my, you know, portfolio images, send them out. No, nobody. Nobody responds to those things. You know, every what, what would be nice. Would be like, Hey, not bad. Try back next year, you know, those kinds of things. I was like, oh, somebody said something, you know, but, yeah, no, after nine years, and I never went there before, that’s my problem, right? I didn’t go to the gallery, right? Anybody now who wants to get in the gallery? You have to take your butt and you have to go into the gallery, and you have to say hello, and you tell them up front, you’re an artist and you’re just here to look, you talk, and you just go to the openings, you make friends with the artist. You know, I think that’s still a good way to get into galleries. I did this cold email stupid thing, because I was, you know, whatever, after nine years, she sends me back an email and says, Hey, we’re having a paint out, I don’t know, next month, why don’t you come it wasn’t like, Hey, your paintings look fantastic. I love your work. It was, hey, we’re having a paint out, why don’t you join us? I was in Connecticut. She was at the Cape. It was probably like, five, six hours. I’m like, Oh God, I’m gonna have to get a hotel. I’m looking at my wife. I’m like, do I do this? And she’s like, well, yes, you do this, because right now you have nothing. You know, the furniture store you were showing artwork at has long gone. You know, kids are in diapers. So I’m like, okay, so we slept it. We got two kids at this point. I go up there and it is an all day interview. Now, it’s not an official interview, right? I get there, there’s a paint out. I don’t do these things. I was I had almost very little plein air experience at the time. So I go there, and I’m because I just paint on my kitchen table and stuff like that. So anyways, so I go there, and you have to go sign up in the morning. And I go, Hi, I’m the guy you know. And she’s like, cool, go, here’s some places you’re gonna paint. I had no concept of the cape at all. I was just happy it was, like a gray rainy day, because I hate green, and I can do gray rain and, like, right? Yes, that mood. I can do that mood. So I’m like, All right, fine. So I go and I paint and I say hi to people. And I don’t like to say hi to people. I’ve gotten way better at it, but, like, at the time, I was just like, I want to be an introvert artist. Leave me alone. You know, that kind of stuff. And I had to go paint on location, come back at lunchtime, show her what I did. I get sent back out to go paint some more. But looking back, there was all the interview. So it was meeting the other artists. It was working and talking with her that day. It was jumping through whatever she wanted me to jump through, because we had an exhibition at the end of the day where we hung up our wet paintings, and we stood there and, you know, did that whole thing, which all new to me. You know, I do not feel comfortable standing next to my artwork, smiling and saying, Hey, look what I did. I do not like doing that. I would much rather talk about anybody else’s work in the gallery except mine. I’ve gotten better at it, but at that point, I’m an idiot about these things, and she was making people come and talk to me. So now I’m talking with, like, collectors from the gallery, her friends, these people, and I assume they are going back and giving her the thumbs up or the thumbs down as to like, hey, this guy’s a jerk, or, Oh, he seems nicer. I don’t know what happened behind the scenes, but at the end of the day, my wife was in the parking lot with the two kids. It was getting near the end, and I’m like, can we go? You know, the kids are like, restless, so it’s like, fine, it’s almost over. Let’s just go. I get in the car. We start driving down the road. Got a long ride back to Connecticut. Helen calls me up because there was no, like, goodbye or nothing, I don’t know, like, and she’s like, Hey, there’s somebody here that wants to talk to you. Where’d you go? So I just turned the car around. I was like, hang on, I’m just outside. Went really fast, back to the place, ran inside, talked to who she wanted me to talk to, and then, um, thank God I did, because then after that, we were good and, like, I was in, but what I didn’t realize, like, wow, you know, so that’s a long Helen story, but awesome. That was my in that’s how I got in there. And then once you prove yourself at a gallery show, you can do the work you do the work other galleries notice, you know, the more exposure you can get through other venues, because she helps promote me. So I get in the magazines once in a while now, thanks to her and things like that too and stuff. So I mean all that really helped elevate me out of my kitchen. I mean, I’m forever grateful for that, but what I didn’t expect the interview day to be like that, that was that was just a wild day, and I look back on that really fondly, but I was a mess.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:12

Oh man, hindsight is 2020, but that’s awesome.

Donald Yatomi: 50:15

That’s, Can I say one more thing? Of course, that would be helpful, but it’s very, very hard. Is, is, I don’t think anybody can teach you how to take rejection, but you got to be ready for rejections, and however you process that and handle that, it comes, rejection comes, you know, even to the most successful people like, you know. So just be, just be aware that it does come. And, you know, you got to be able to take a rejection and learn from it and and sort of like, have that self want awareness that, hey, maybe, you know, maybe I’m, you know, I’m not ready for this, you know. But there’s another thing too. Is when you get a rejection, it’s not always your fault, meaning it’s not just your work that it’s that’s an issue. Sometimes it’s the other person that you’re proposing to that they’re, they’re not, they’re not being able, they’re they’re not able to see the value of you. Just yet, you know, they don’t see the potential, or they don’t see a value of you. So it’s like I said, it’s not rejections will come, but it’s not always going to be you that’s being rejected. They’re actually, you know, not not being able to appreciate you kind of thing.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:48

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

We have changed the name of this newsletter from The BoldBrush Letter to The FASO Way so that it is more clear that it is in alignment with our main brand, FASO Artist Websites. The content will remain the same.

Feature Article

Sharecroppers Post. Sovereigns Email.

Price like you mean it. Email like a human. Stop feeding the machine.

On The BoldBrush Show (soon to be renamed “The FASO Podcast”), we recently sat down with Miraiam Schulman, author of the book, Artpreneur: The Step-by-Step Guide to Making a Sustainable Living from Your Creativity, and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She shared some important marketing principles for artists. You can watch the whole episode here. Below, we’ve put together an article about art marketing sharing what we learned from Miriam’s wisdom. Her ideas align remarkably well with our own concept of The Sovereign Artist. Enjoy!

There’s a quiet humiliation modern artists have accepted as normal. We’re not talking about rejection, slow seasons, or creative doubt. We’re talking about the humiliation of believing your career depends on whether a souless app decides to show your work to strangers who are half-bored and one thumb-flick away from forgetting you exist.

That isn’t marketing. That’s servitude.

The artists winning right now are not the ones producing endless content for the algorithm. They’re the ones building Trust, charging like professionals, and owning their audience.

These are the artists who practice Sovereignty.

The First Sale Is Your Identity

Before pricing, platforms, and strategy, you must decide one simple thing: I am an artist.

There’s a moment in Harry Potter when Hagrid says, “You’re a wizard, Harry.” And everything changes in that moment, not because Harry suddenly gains power, but because he discovers his true name: Wizard. He stops living as a question mark.

But, many artists still live as question marks.

The Sovereign Artist doesn’t wait for a gallery to say it. She says it herself, and then she behaves accordingly.

Don’t whisper your prices. Don’t apologize for marketing. Don’t wait for permission to build a list.

Identity precedes income.

The Biggest Pricing Mistake Artists Make

Here’s the myth that quietly sabotages art careers: Cheaper is easier to sell.

It sounds humble, kind, and safe. But, it signals doubt.

If your dog needs surgery and someone offers the same procedure for one-tenth the price, you don’t feel lucky. You feel suspicious.

Price is not just the cost. Price is the signal. It signals trust. It signals value. It signals costliness. Art is costly to create in terms of one’s time, attention, and soul. And in the soul-economy of art, costliness matters. There’s a reason people don’t send wedding invitations by email. Costliness signals importance.

Collectors are not hunting for bargains, but they are hunting for certainty.

Certainty that:

• the work is legitimate

• the artist stands behind it

• the purchase will still feel right a year from now

Underpricing doesn’t just shrink revenue, it shrinks confidence in the work itself.

People do not buy art like they buy paper towels. They buy it like they buy identity through luxury brands; for that is what luxury brands truly sell.

Sell the Experience, Not the Labor

Artists defend their prices with effort saying things like, “I trained for years,” “This took forty hours,” or “My materials are expensive.”

None of that is relevant. None of that is the reason collectors buy.

Buyers don’t care how the sausage is made, they care about the dinner party.

They care about:

• how your art feels in their space

• what it says about them

• the story they get to tell

• the world it helps them live in

You are selling meaning, not medium.

The Sovereign Artist doesn’t explain the how, he explains the why.

Email Is Sovereignty. Social Media Is Rent.

Let’s go ahead and say the thing that terrifies the big social media platforms: their promise is a lie. They’ve already altered the deal. They convinced you to build a following with the promise they would show your posts to their followers. They let you do the work and instead showed your followers advertisements for other products.

From the individual artist’s perspective, Instagram engagement is microscopic and shrinking.

You are fighting a hostile algorithm for crumbs.

On social media, the platform decides who sees you. In email, the subscriber decides whether to open you.

That is the difference between being a sharecropper and being a landowner.

Social media is rented land. Email is owned land. And we are living in a trust recession. People are drowning in ads disguised as authenticity. Trust is now the true currency and a direct personal email builds trust.

The Simplest List-Building Strategy No One Uses

Artists think building a list requires funnels, automation, lead magnets, and twelve tech platforms arguing with each other.

You actually need a sentence.

When someone asks:

• “Do you have a card?”

• “Where can I see your work?”

• “What’s your gallery?”

They are not testing your legitimacy, they are trying to learn more; they are trying to take the next step.

So just reply:

“I’d love to invite you to my next show. What’s your email?”

That’s it. You don’t need a show scheduled. You need a relationship. And relationships are built one invitation at a time.

The Second Mistake: Having a List and Not Using It

This mistake is worse. Artists build a list… and then go silent because they’re afraid of “bothering people.”

If someone gives you their phone number and you wait three months to call, what message are you sending?

You’re ghosting them. When that happens in dating, we think the ghoster is the jerk. Guess what? Marketing art is dating.

You’re saying to this prospect: I don’t care enough to show up.

Consistency builds trust.

So, the solution is simple: send a weekly email. Not a corporate newsletter. Not “March Studio Update.” Not six sections crammed into one apologetic essay. Just sent one story; one image; one invitation. If you have more than one thing to communicate, send the second thing next week.

Write like a human, you know, like you’re emailing a friend. Everyone knows how to do that. Stop pretending you don’t know how.

Here’s what one of our collectors emailed me, coincidentally, last week about this very subject:

“I think artists may think they have to have a lot to say to get out a newsletter. So it never gets written. I don’t get many. What I would really like to see is an informal news blast of new work, links to new posts on their website, save the date-type info for new shows, work accepted in competitions with a link, etc. I get a lot of email notices for auctions, news, etc., so I want it short and sweet.” — A FASO Collector

“I want it short and sweet.” Her words, not mine. In further correspondence she agreed that shorter is better, and one topic per email blast is the best way to go. Think of her list in the quote above as ideas for individual email sends.

Stop Being a “Content” Machine

Instagram is not evil. But it’s just not your business model.

Make your life easy and just use it like a storefront window.

Pin a few posts that clearly communicate:

• who you are

• what you make

• what it means

• how to buy

• how to join your list

Then stop performing for it.

Artists had careers before Instagram existed and they will have them after.

The Sovereign Artist refuses to be farmed.

Keep Marching

Most artists don’t fail because they lack talent.

They fail because they stop moving.

They try something for three weeks.
They don’t see fireworks.
They blame the economy, the platform or the market. It’s rarely one of those factors.

Continual movement creates increasing clarity and, if you’re walking in the wrong direction, you can adjust, but, if you’re standing still, you can only think. And if thinking is your only option, you’ll overthink.

So:

Raise the price.
Send the email.
Make the invitation.
Do it again next week.

Sovereignty is built through repetition. It’s a choice you make in every moment.

The Sovereign Artist’s Weekly Plan

• Send one real email every week.

• Ask for emails like it’s normal (because it is).

• Price like trust matters (because it does).

• Use Instagram as a brochure, not a treadmill.

• Keep marching.
  
  

Take The Next Step

To execute this plan you need to stop serving the platforms that are hostile to your goals. But you do need a platform that supports you. And you need one that provides the tools you need to achieve sovereignty.

That’s exactly what we do at FASO.

And, in fact, it’s all we do.

We provide you with a beautiful website chock full of features collectors love. It includes built-in promotional tools including a dead-simple email campaigns tool for you to execute such weekly emails. In fact, when you post new artwork, we email your fans an alert automatically, so, even if you hate creating newsletters, we give your collectors what they want. And they work, the collector I spoke with? She shared with me that she does purchase art that she finds due to our new art alerts.

We’ll Make it Easy

We know setting up or switching websites is a pain. But, in this day and age, you need your own home base.

A great website, contrary to what big tech says, is more important than ever.

So to make it easier for you, we’ve put together a special deal where you’ll get your first year on our platform for only $150. That’s a 52% savings off the normal price of $312/year. Think of it as us paying you $162 to move your website to a place that actually promotes human creativity. Please take this opportunity to move away from platforms that use your hard work as “content” to serve hostile algorithms while they callously steal your artwork to train their AI systems. We are here. Ready and waiting to help you regain your sovereignty. Please join us in this movement.

Get FASO for 52% off

PS - Hope to see you on our platform soon! And just to show you that we do promote our artists, in addition to the piece we featured at the top of this article, here’s another great piece that caught my eye in our DailyArtStream just this week. Don’t forget to sign up here.

We are soon changing the name of this newsletter from The BoldBrush Letter to The FASO Way. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush, over the years we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes much confusion for most people. So, to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO.

We have another post today by Eugene Terekhin, the man and the mind behind the publication Philosophy of Language.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The BoldBrush Letter.

This article will be locked in two days for paying members only.

FASO Loves Ryan S. Brown’s paintings

Wouldn’t You Love to work with a website hosting company that actually promotes their artists?

As you can see, at FASO, we actually do, and,
we are the only website host we know of that does.

Click the button below to start working
with an art website host that actually cares about art.

Get Started with FASO for Free

PS - If you prefer Squarespace websites, you should check out our Artful Square offering. We can generally save artists money, unlock extra features, and we promote our Squarespace artists too!

Feature Article:

I Saw an Angel in the Marble and Set Him Free

When I wander through the nearby grove looking for material for my woodworking projects, I do not pick up pieces until they start “speaking” to me.

It’s easy to choose a piece that matches a preconceived design in my mind. It’s much harder to listen to the material and allow it to be what it is.

And yet, starting with a rigid idea and bending the material to fit it rarely produces real art. The moment I force something to conform to my vision, it loses its authenticity.

Real magic happens when I pay attention to what the material tells me. If I listen to its story, it reveals its secrets.

William Paul Young, author of the widely known novel The Shack, once told a striking story about crafting violins. He described how violin makers search along river bends for hollow logs. They move from one to another, gently tapping and listening to the tone each produces.

What they seek is the log with the most distinctive resonance. Once properly dried, the artisan carves it with great care, using minimal force so that the natural grain and fibers remain undisturbed.

The principle is simple: the finest instrument emerges only when you “follow the material” rather than impose a preconceived idea upon it.

If you care about art, you cannot coerce something into becoming what you imagined it would be before actually encountering it. As Plato taught, every object participates in its own Idea. Our task is not to create this Idea, but to discover it.

The artisan’s calling is to perceive and recognize this inner form – the Idea – that already belongs to each thing.

I may approach something with my own concept of what it is. But if I wish to share in its Idea, I must release my preconceptions and learn to listen. If I listen long enough, the “object” begins to speak.

Matter discloses its secret only to the one who is willing to listen.

Much of the ugliness in the modern world comes from imposing ready-made schemes onto reality – pressing it into rigid molds instead of allowing it to unfold as it is.

Thomas Merton said:

“The beginning of love is the will to let those we love be perfectly themselves, the resolution not to twist them to fit our own image.”

William Paul Young ends his violin story with a striking insight: the finest violins are crafted from the most crooked logs. These are the most valued and carefully sought-after. A skilled luthier understands that the more storms a tree has endured – the more twisted and “unshapely” it has become – the deeper and more resonant the music it can yield.

When you allow a thing – or a person – to be fully what it is, when you truly listen to its unfolding story, something extraordinary happens: it begins to sing. The storms it has weathered become the very source of richness and depth in its self-expression.

The melody was always there – locked inside – waiting for someone to lean in with an attentive ear and let it come forth.

If we want to hear real music, we must let go of our rigid ideas about things, about people, even about God, and become all ears.

“He who has an ear, let him hear.”

Whether you are writing a book, painting a portrait, renovating a home, or raising a child, the aim is not to impose a shape or a scheme but to cultivate sufficient sensitivity to what is already present.

Michelangelo was once asked how he approached the sculpting process. He answered:

“I saw the angel in the marble, and carved until I set him free.”

Leave a comment

PS — Check out Eugene’s book Fairy Tales for Grown-Ups: Rediscovering Myth and Meaning through Tolkien, Lewis, and Barfield.

Available on Amazon or his website.

PPS - Don’t forget to sign up for Eugene’s newsletter, Philosophy of Language here.

We do not use AI images with our writing. We prefer to feature and provide more exposure for human artists. If you know of a great piece of art we should consider, please leave a comment with a link to it. All featured images are properly attributed with backlinks to the artist’s website. You can help support human artists and push back against AI by liking or restacking this piece by clicking the “Like” icon ❤️, by clicking the “Restack” icon 🔁 (or by leaving a comment).

Get over 50% off your first year on your artist website with FASO:
https://www.FASO.com/podcast/

Join our next BoldBrush Live!
https://register.boldbrush.com/live-guest

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For today’s episode we sat down with Stacey Peterson, a Colorado landscape painter and former chemical engineer. Stacey discusses her lifelong love of art, early influences from her creative mother and inspiring high school teachers, and how she eventually transitioned from engineering to full-time painting. She explains how problem-solving skills and professionalism from engineering transferred directly into her art career and helped her manage the business side of being a self-employed artist. Stacey shares major artistic influences, including the Canadian Group of Seven, California impressionists, and several contemporary landscape painters, as well as the pivotal mentorship with Jay Moore that encouraged her to paint what she truly loves—the outdoors. She describes her attraction to strong light effects and color in the landscape, her process of narrowing each painting to a single primary idea, and the different roles plein air studies and studio work play in her practice. On the business side, she emphasizes relying heavily on strong gallery relationships, staying active on social media for visibility and connection, and the long-term networking value of juried shows, while advising artists to keep putting in the hours since that allows one to develop a recognizable personal style. Stacey also talks about teaching, recovering from a serious leg injury while keeping up her practice with acrylic gouache studies, and shares her current focus on restocking galleries and her upcoming participation in Plein Air Painters of America and Oil Painters of America shows.

Stacey’s FASO site:
staceypeterson.com/

Stacey’s Social Media:
instagram.com/staceypetersonart/

facebook.com/staceypetersonart/

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Transcript:

Stacey Peterson: 0:00

If you have a recognizable style that’s all your own, it’s a lot easier to sell your work, especially to get into galleries and shows, because you’re not automatically competing with five other people who look like you. So I think that spending the time, and I guess this goes back to the like being a little bit of a hermit, and putting in all those hours, is when you go do that. That’s that’s how you develop your style. So putting in the time to develop your own voice is very important if you want to sell your work.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Stacy Peterson, a Colorado landscape painter and former chemical engineer, Stacey discusses her lifelong love of art early influences from her creative mother and inspiring high school teachers, and how she eventually transitioned from engineering to full time painting. She explains how problem solving skills and professionalism from engineering transferred directly into her art career and helped her manage the business side of being a self employed artist, Stacey shares major artistic influences, including the Canadian Group of Seven California Impressionists and several contemporary landscape painters, as well as a pivotal member for today’s episode, we sat down with Stacey Peterson, a Colorado landscape painter and Former chemical engineer. Stacey discusses her lifelong love of art, early influences from her creative mother and inspiring high school teachers, and how she eventually transitioned from engineering to full time painting. She explains how problem solving skills and professionalism from engineering transferred directly into her art career and helped her manage the business side of being a self employed artist, Stacy shares major artistic influences, including the Canadian Group of Seven California Impressionists and several contemporary landscape painters, as well as a pivotal mentorship with J Moore that encouraged her to paint what she truly loves, the outdoors. She describes her attraction to strong light effects and color in the landscape, her process for narrowing each painting to a single primary idea and the different roles plein air studies and studio work play in her practice. On the business side, she emphasizes relying heavily on strong gallery relationships, staying active on social media for visibility and connection and the long term networking value of juried shows, while also advising artists to keep putting in the hours since that allows one to develop a recognizable personal style. Stacey also talks about teaching recovering from a serious leg injury, while keeping up her practice with acrylic wash studies. And finally, shares her current focus on restocking galleries and her upcoming participation in plein air painters of America and oil painters of America. Shows, welcome Stacy to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? Good.

Stacey Peterson: 3:05

Thank you. How are you? I’m really good. I am

Laura Arango Baier: 3:08

so excited to have you because your paintings are absolutely beautiful. They just feel like this, the scenery that just envelops you, and it’s, it’s just, it’s pretty to look at. It is eye candy for just the shapes and the abstract forms, like I was just observing them and like, this is eye candy for the artist. So I’m excited to pick your brain about it for many, many reasons. But before we dive into your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Stacey Peterson: 3:41

Of course, Thanks for the kind words. I am a Colorado landscape painter. I live in Evergreen Colorado, which is up in the mountains, outside of Denver, and I paint 99.9% landscapes. Love being outside, and that is just like what I’m really passionate about. So I’ve been doing this for about 18 years as my job, and it’s the best job ever. I love it so, so,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:09

yeah, awesome. Yes, it is the best job ever, because you get, hopefully, a really nice boss that doesn’t control your hours too, too much, and gives you a break sometimes. But you know, it’s, it’s one of those things, but that’s awesome 18 years and before that, of course, you were actually in a different career path. But I wanted to ask you, before you tell us about this really interesting, cool career path you had before that evolved into something even cooler. When did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Stacey Peterson: 4:44

Um, I think that I’ve always been an artist as long as I can remember. Um, my mom is not an artist, per se, but she’s very creative. Has a great eye for design, and had always done crafty type things. So I grew up in a house where I had a mom who was doing flower arranging one week or stained glass another week, and she actually worked in an art gallery where I spent a lot of time as a child and actually took my first steps. So I feel like I’ve been surrounded by art forever, and I have just always loved painting and drawing ever since I was a little kid, and as I got older and got into high school, I had some amazing, really inspiring art teachers in high school that were really impactful on me. So I feel like I’ve loved art as long as I can remember, and I’ve just kind of evolved along the way and gotten more and more into it as time went by.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:42

Yes, and you also mentioned a couple things there that are. I think I’ve noticed with a lot of artists, which is support in some sense, whether it’s a teacher, family member, you know, like your parent, for example, like being exposed to some of it. It isn’t always the case. Of course, some people are like, no one in my family’s artistic at all, but it does help a lot to have that family support, or like the just like someone in your life who sees it and, you know, supports you through it. Because I think there could be some really good artists out there who unfortunately were forced into a different path. But actually, that’s the next part, which is, so you were originally an engineer, which I think is really phenomenal, amazing, challenging, crazy. Can you tell us a bit about you know, how you went from artist, wanting to be artist, to engineer and then

Stacey Peterson: 6:41

back to artist. Sure thing, I always loved art, as I said, but I’ve also always loved science. Did well in school and when it was time to figure out where to go to college and what to do for my career, I think I had a very supportive family as far as my art goes, but I think that they were also very logical and encouraged me to consider all of my options. And I felt like I should probably go get a degree in something that was going to be something that would be easier to support myself with, or something that was a little bit more stable. And so I ended up going to the Colorado School of Mines, which is an engineering school here in Colorado, and I majored in chemical engineering and minored in environmental science. So I worked as an engineer after I graduated for about six years before I switched to being an artist full time. So really big change, but I did do art the whole time, and I don’t know, I don’t regret it, like I learned a lot in my engineering school and my engineering work that I think still applies to what I do now. So I think I wouldn’t change it.

Laura Arango Baier: 7:55

Yes, yeah, I agree. I think sometimes things happen in a specific order for a reason, or, you know, just things. Life has its way of working out in mysterious ways. And I think it’s, it’s fascinating, you know, to have gone into a very, very rational career, into a what a lot of people consider to not be a very rational career, which is being a creative person, you know, like we mentioned earlier about, you’re your own boss. You have very, you know, free range in terms of what hours you can work and whatnot. So it feels a little bit more loosey goosey compared to very strict linear like work. Time starts, this time ends, this time, which you can also maintain as an artist, of course. But also, I wanted to ask you, too, do you find that there has been any transference, per se, of skills that you’ve noticed from engineering that went into your paintings?

Stacey Peterson: 8:56

For sure, I think there’s a lot people have a misconception that engineering is not creative, that it’s this very left brain type, type activity where you’re just crunching numbers all day. But at the end of the day, when you study engineering, and when you work in engineering, it’s all about problem solving, they teach you how to take all of these inputs that you have and you have this problem, and you have to be really creative. You’re often in a room with a bunch of people trying to figure out, okay, this is what we have, but we have to get from A to B, and how do we how do we solve that problem? How do we get there? And there’s a lot of creativity involved in that, and I think that that applies to everything. I laugh that a lot of my friends from engineering school, hardly any of them are still doing engineering. They’ve all gone on to very different careers, not quite as different as mine. But I just think that the skills you learn prepare you to do just about anything that you want to tackle. Um, so I think there’s that, there’s problem solving. I can look at a painting, or when I was learning how to paint, and I can say, oh my gosh, this isn’t working. How can I get there? What are some resources I can use? So there’s a lot of creativity in approaching a problem in the same way. And the other thing I would say is that I personally think that being successful working for yourself is actually pretty difficult, and I’m not sure had I gone to art school and then tried to make a living as an artist when I was 21 or 22 years old, that I would have had the professional skills or business skills or even maturity to tackle that at the time, I wonder if it like you said, it’s very loosey goosey. I worry that had I been 22 when I tried to make this work, I wouldn’t have had the maturity or the business skills to figure out how to make it work. So I think having a career beforehand can really help, because you come at it with a lot of business skills that you might not have otherwise, and I do see that with a lot of my professional artist friends, most of us had some sort of professional career before we did this, and theirs might not be as different. They might have been doing illustration or graphic design, but I think that having a boss, having deliverables, having a job like it, teaches you a lot of skills that you need to use to be a successful fine artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:25

Yes, I totally agree. And also the aspect of lived life as well life experience, because as an artist, right? There’s especially if you start early, like you said, if you were like 22 it’s very unlikely that a 22 year old has the social skills of, say, for example, 30 year old, right? Because they haven’t had to experience that, especially when it’s, for example, sales Right? Definitely not unless they’ve worked really hard on a summer mall job and they’ve had to deal with customer service, right? But from what I’ve seen, most artists are very reserved or introverted, or tend to mostly just talk with other artists. So I think in that sense, I totally agree. I mean having the lived experience skills of dealing with other people, dealing with a boss who, like you said, has, you know, they demand deliverables. They tell you, Okay, this is how things should do, should work. So that you know how to do them as well is really good as, like, a practice for like, okay, that means that, you know, when I’m with my own stuff, I really need to be on my game to know exactly what I need to do so that my lights don’t get shut off next month. You know, because it’s all on you. And I think that’s the like, like you said, that’s a challenging part about being your own boss, your own everything, lot of responsibility. But of course, as the saying goes, you know, with a lot of freedom comes a lot of responsibility. And I think as artists, I’ve it’s so funny, because you would think it’s it’s so difficult that someone would give up. But every artist I’ve met has been like, this is the best job in the world. I would never give it up, even though it can get really hard, and sometimes you don’t sell for a while, but then suddenly you do, and then you just want to keep going, because it’s just, even just the mental exercise of the problem solving of paintings, or being excited for your next painting, and it just seems to roll forward in a really natural way that makes you be like, Huh? I mean, as long as I keep paying my bills, that’s totally fine, you know? Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, because since you did go into engineering prior to painting, I wanted to ask you in terms of your influences your paintings, because, of course, landscape beautiful, and you have mentioned to me before that you absolutely love being outdoors. You are an Outdoors Woman. Who would you say have been your greatest influences in your work?

Stacey Peterson: 14:07

I have been in love with art for a long time, so I’ve always followed art, and I have probably too many artist influences to mention, but when I was younger, I really fell in love with the Canadian Group of Seven that was probably like the first group of artists that I really followed that weren’t just, you know, the ones you would know in grade school, like Monet or Picasso. I was just really drawn to the design and the color choices. They’re not strictly representational, and I just got really excited about that, probably around the time I was in high school. Once I got more into landscape painting in my 20s, I really fell in love with the California impressionists, very inspired by their work, especially. Usually, like William went just love his brushwork and color Edgar pain, his sense of design, you know, his use of big, big, simple shapes, really speaks to me. Yeah, so I think that. And then there’s a lot of amazing contemporary artists, like I can’t even begin to mention how many contemporary artists have inspired me. You know, Clyde, aspevig, Len schmeal, George, Carlson, just too many to even think of. But there’s just so many amazing artists alive right now to follow. So I think that’s a big thing. And then I would say one person who’s really affected me in person, I I’ve taken a lot of workshops with different artists to learn how to landscape paint and learn some of the basics. But I had done a mentorship with Jay Moore, who lives here in Colorado. And prior to doing the mentorship with him, I took my very first plein air workshop with him, and at the time, I was painting all portraits and still lives and things that felt like very organized, like I could figure out how the forms work on a well lit face, whereas the landscape, to me, feels a little bit more ambiguous. It’s a little harder to organize to me, or at least at the time, and I remember talking to Jay, and him just asking me, like, Oh, you’re doing portraits. Like, well, what do you really love? And I was like, Well, I love being outside, like the outdoors, like, that’s my passion. I, you know, live in Colorado. I love the Rocky Mountains. I hike, I bike. And he just looked at me and was like, Well, that’s what you need to paint. So I think that that was a big inspiration for me deciding to even pursue this path. Was someone just telling me, You know what, this might not be the easiest for you, but this is what you should do.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:54

So, yes, yeah. And that’s interesting, because oftentimes I’ve heard also, you know, the advice of, oh, well, paint, paint what you’re good at, because you’ll enjoy that, of course. But it’s so challenging when the thing you enjoy is the thing you’re not so good at, right? And it’s good to push through it. And I totally relate with you on that, because for me, it was I really want to get good at portraits because I suck at them, because I love portraits. And then I decided to do a bunch of master copies. And I think, you know, as you develop skill, it becomes even more enjoyable. It’s so difficult at first though, because it’s like, oh man, I really don’t know what I’m doing. And this really sucks. And I can only imagine with landscape too, and plein air being like the Marathon of painting. You know, it’s like the sprinting marathon, because you got to catch the light and you got to, you know, do all of these complex things that, you know, once you insert color in there, that’s really challenging. What was that like for you when you were learning plein air and learning landscape, how did you feel, you know, when you started doing it, knowing that this is something you love, did you find that it was really difficult for you at first to land in it, or did you still get pretty excited to move forward with it?

Stacey Peterson: 18:19

I was excited to do it from the get go. I really leaned into plein air from the beginning, because I do like being outdoors, and so I could go hike and paint outdoors. And so even if my painting was terrible, I was enjoying being out there, and I think that helped. I was really bad at painting landscapes at the beginning. Like when I have taught workshops, I keep a couple of my beginning landscapes in my studio, and I will show them to my students. Like, look you guys where I started, and I’ve come a long way through a lot of practice, so it is definitely not something that came easy to me. Like, I definitely was a much better portrait painter or still life painter, before I tried to do landscapes, but I think that the fact that I wasn’t very good at it is what made it really interesting to me. I think when I was doing engineering, I had gotten to a point in my job where I was sort of doing the same type of tasks over and over, like I might be doing a different task for a different client, but it was the same work, and that got really difficult for me to enjoy doing over and over. And so I think that’s exactly what I love about doing this, is that there’s always something new to learn or a new challenge, a new thing to work on, a new medium I can try. There’s always something and I think that that is part of what I love about what I do, is that I’m always working on something new. I’m always getting excited about something different. And if I get to a point where things are feeling a little bit stagnant, that’s when I’m going to be like, Okay, what can I do different right now? Should I start working on paintings of a different size? Should I try out a different medium for a little while? I really like to depend on mixing things up and learning new things. So I think that that, although it was hard, it was exactly what kept me engaged.

Laura Arango Baier: 20:12

Yeah, and I think that’s a really great logical step right, which is, if the same things are happening over and over again and it gets too monotonous, you got to throw something new in there, no matter what it is, right? And that’s really great that you were able to overcome your maybe that self criticism that a lot of artists tend to have of like, oh, this is terrible. How could you you know that I think a lot of artists carry within themselves because we’re so hard on ourselves, we really want to get the thing and make it look how we envision it and how we want to, you know, describe it to the world that is so challenging, but it’s really great when you overcome that. I think that makes it even more of a gosh, like a really great victory. We say, ha, I pushed through all of those terrible paintings so that I can come up with something even better. Oh, man. And then I actually want to ask you as well, since you do love hiking, and you know you’ve been out, you’ve looked at spots, what is it that makes you stop and say, I want to paint this. How do you select an area? And then what is your process like after that?

Stacey Peterson: 21:25

I it’s hard to pick just one thing, but I definitely just always loved going hiking and mountain biking camping, and I’m the kind of girl that if there’s a beautiful sunset, I’m going to walk outside and take a picture of it, or make sure that I go enjoy it. And I think that that’s really impacted my painting a little bit. I really am drawn to strong light effects more than anything, and color. And so those are usually the things, when it comes down to it, that draw me to a scene. I love painting big mountains and aspen trees and rivers and whatnot, but usually what draws me to a scene is going to be really strong light hitting it, or really beautiful color. I really, I really try to, you know, I’ll obviously be outside and have an emotional connection to a scene. But when I get back to the studio and I start thinking about doing a painting, I usually go through a process of thinking about, what was it that made me have an emotional reaction to that scene? Was it the mountains? Was it the trees? Was it the way the light was hitting? I try to pick out one thing that really stood out to me, because I think that was one of the things that was difficult when I learned how to landscape paint, was that I would go out there and there would be, like this amazing scene that would have mountains and a river and beautiful clouds and trees with light, and I would do, like a really big painting, and I would try to paint it all. And my paintings were just not good, and I couldn’t figure out why. And I think, over the years, what I’ve really landed on is that I need to pick the one thing that really jumped out at me, and then all of the other things kind of need to take a backseat. And that’s part of I think the difference between plein air painting and studio painting, to me is, when I do a plein air painting, it’s I’m just trying to kind of get the shapes and the color and it’s like immediate notes. It’s not to me that’s not a finished painting, but when I go into the studio, I’m taking that as a reference, but I’m making a lot of decisions in the studio about what’s important and what’s not important, and then kind of moving things around and working with edges and working with values to actually make my painting say what I want it to say.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:49

Yes, exactly. And I think that’s the other really wonderful thing that planet artists do as well, which is, you know, that initial note taking, right is like, it’s so important, because, like you said, it’s like, oh, maybe it’s the trees, maybe it’s the mountains, maybe it’s, you know, the light that I’m trying to capture. And I think having that reference of the study, even though plein air can also make a really beautiful finished piece as well, if someone has the extreme skill to pull that off, because I have so much respect for plein air artists. I think it’s so hardcore, first to be out of your studio, and second to go paint really, really fast before the light changes. But yeah, that’s awesome. And of course, if you add to that, like you said earlier, the experimentation aspect, right? If you find like, Oh, I’ve never painted this one tree before. I think that also makes it really, really interesting, because then you’re able to use like you mentioned, like different components to be the narrative, the main storyteller of the painting, like the color, the light, the actual tree that you’re painting, like you have this gorgeous. Snow covered tree is like your main focus in one of your paintings. And I, I am sucker. I’m a sucker for snow covered trees. So I love those because it’s just, I think snow is one of those really versatile things to paint, because it’s just, once you get it, it looks so beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, because, as you mentioned earlier, you did have a job in engineering for a while, but you were still painting while you were doing that, what was it like for you when you went from your job engineering to tapering off into painting? What was that process like for you?

Stacey Peterson: 25:40

Yeah, I I painted the entire time that I worked as an engineer. It started as a hobby, for sure, even in college, I took some painting classes at the local community college. And then after college, I moved to Texas for an engineering job, and being very outdoorsy and moving to Houston, I was a little bit like a fish out of water. I didn’t quite know what to do with myself on the weekends now that I couldn’t go hiking or camping as much, and so I really started leaning on art classes then as like something to do to keep myself happy and well rounded. And so I was painting the whole time I was working as an engineer. It wasn’t until I moved back to Colorado that I really got into landscape painting and started doing that. But after a couple of years of that, I did get into a gallery in Denver, and they were selling my work really well, even while I was still doing engineering. So I kind of knew it was my end goal to quit my job and become an artist, but at the time, I didn’t want to do that, until I knew that, like I actually had clients and interest in my work, where people going to buy my work. So I think getting into a gallery that sold my work well really gave me that confidence to make the leap. And when I had my daughter, I kind of had planned to go back to work part time, but it didn’t work out the way I wanted it to. They wanted me to be traveling a lot, and I didn’t want to be doing that. And so I was like, You know what? This is the time. And so I cut the cord completely with engineering at the time and quit to become an artist. And I will say, because I had just had my first kid, my whole life had just changed, like, all of a sudden, I also had this, like, human being that I had to keep alive and take care of, but, yeah, I just haven’t looked back. Like, ever since then, I’ve loved it. It’s a great job, always challenging, always something new to be working on. And as I’ve raised my kids, it’s also been a fantastic career as a mom, because it’s 100% flexible, like, if I need to go pick up a kid and hold the day because they’re sick, I can, if I need to work at 10pm because I didn’t get stuff done earlier, I can. So I’ve really just loved the flexibility of it, as well as the fact that I’m doing what I love now

Laura Arango Baier: 28:09

at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com, that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true, and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year. Then start now by going to our special link, faso.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah. I think that’s, I agree. I think that’s one of the best parts about it. It’s the I know some artists have like, a studio outside of their house, which is also really nice, but it is also very. Lenient when you’re a parent, to be available, like, yeah, you know, painting can take a long time and a lot of hours of focus, but I think there’s a really good balance that can happen. I’ve met so many artists who, have, you know, raised kids and have been artists and have made a living from it, and I think it’s amazing time management, which is really awesome. But then, speaking also, a little bit more on, you know, galleries and marketing. Have you found that there’s, like, one really lucrative marketing tactic, or one very lucrative way that you’ve been able to sell more work? Has it just been galleries? Has it been also, you know, maintaining a newsletter, social media, like what, or painting societies, for example, what? What has been like your combination of eggs, I should say, in your basket,

Stacey Peterson: 30:54

I would say, I would say, there’s, there’s three things that I’ve really focused on the first that has been pretty much my everything, and my constant since I started, is that I have amazing galleries selling my work. And there’s always, like, a lot of talk, like my friends are always surprised when I tell them what a gallery commission is, but I when I say it’s worth every penny I like, mean it with 100% of my art, because I am not a salesperson. Like, I am super introverted. I almost AM, like, apologetic when I’m trying to sell my work, like, I don’t know my husband makes fun of me. I just like, I am not if you start talking to me about a painting, I’m not going to talk you into buying it. It’s just is not something that I’m good at. I could probably work at it more. But my galleries have been amazing, and I have a few that I have some really long term relationships with, and a few that are newer to me in the past few years, but they’ve all been amazing. And so I make, I would say, 99.9% of my income through gallery sell sales. I don’t sell through my studio. I don’t like to do it. Usually, if somebody contacts me through my website, I’m saying, where’d you see my work? Did you see it at such and such a gallery? And then I’m going to pound them off on that gallery to deal with the sale, because that’s just, it’s it’s not my thing, and I really value my galleries. So that’s the first thing, the second. I do like to keep my social media updated. I find that I don’t sell a lot through social media, per se, but I just think it’s it’s fun. It’s a good way to get a buzz out there about yourself as an artist, if, if you post paintings and people get excited about them, I find that it’s just kind of a good way for people to start to know who you are if you have a big following. And I also find that I like to post a lot about process. I love posting like a work in progress or a video or, you know, just like some words about what I’ve been doing. And I find that people really respond to that, and even if it’s artists who are more interested in learning how to paint than buying art, I just find that that that buzz does a lot to like. It keeps me motivated. I guess it keeps me excited. So whether it’s helping me sell paintings or not, I’m not even sure to tell you the truth, but it keeps me engaged and excited about art, and so I think it’s really important for my career. And then the third thing that I would say has really helped me career wise over the years is just doing shows. When I started, I tried to do like little jury local shows. And I did get into like a gallery up in Breckenridge, because the owner saw one of my paintings at a show in Denver that I did that was real small. And then I started doing the national shows, like oil painters of America, American impressionist society, that sort of thing. And I just found that doing shows like that is kind of like rolling a snowball, like you start doing it, and it’s real small, and it feels like you’re not doing much. But as you get into the bigger and bigger shows, you go to them, you meet a lot of people, and all of the sudden it’s like you don’t even know when it happened, but when I started, I was having to beg galleries to carry my work. I was having to send them a packet and talk them into it and give them like a trial group of paintings. Whereas once I started doing the shows, and I bigger and bigger shows, and I met more and more people, I just feel like things got a little bit easier because people knew me, like a lot of the galleries I’m in now, I met at shows, and so they were either they invited me because a collector recommended me, or we met at a show and got along so I wouldn’t count out those juried shows. As far as making an impact, sometimes you feel like, Oh, it’s so expensive. I had to enter the show. I had to mail my painting. I had to travel to the show. I had to my painting didn’t sell, and then I had to ship it back to myself. And you can look at that and be like, Oh my gosh, I just spent hundreds of dollars, and it wasn’t worth it. But in the end, I feel like those have been worth their weight in gold to me because because of the networking opportunities that they gave me. So I think that they are. I think now that I look back at my career, they were, they made a bigger impact than I even thought at the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:27

So nice. Yeah, no. And I love that you described it as like a snowball effect also, because that makes, you know, it makes a lot of sense. You know, it’s, I think a lot of artists, myself included. I could just be speaking for myself, though, but I think a lot of us are very excited right when it’s like, oh, I have my work and I really want to sell it and I want to get it out there. And then, like you said, you know, it can be very disappointing when you ship it out to a show, it doesn’t sell, and then you ship it back to yourself, and you’re a poor student or a poor artist at that point, maybe you have your day job, and it hurts. But like you said, the networking, the having done it in the first place, it means you’ve gained experience, right? You know how to ship a painting out now. You know how to send it, maybe to a framer, and then your framer ships it out to the other person. You can pay for the invoice. There’s a whole process that goes in, and it makes it a lot easier for the future in future shows or bigger ones, and then eventually it leads to a sale. Or you meet a person, even if you didn’t sell anything, Hey, you made a really great friend, or you met a future collector or a future gallery representative. And there’s so many more possibilities that open up. And I love that you also mentioned that over time, it feels like it gets a little easier, which makes perfect sense, because the more you put yourself out there, the more people see you, and then the more they recognize you, and then suddenly you’re part of it, right? You’re not just like hiding in your studio, like a lot of us, like to do, so it’s pretty great,

Stacey Peterson: 37:07

yeah, for sure. And I will say, I guess also, the big benefit of the social media and the shows, which you touched on a little bit with what you just said, is meeting other people. I’ve made so many amazing artist friends through both of those things, and having friends who are artists is also such a big inspiration just going on a trip together and painting, or when I used to do plein air shows, and having a group of people to go paint with and share ideas with for the week, I can’t underestimate having artist friends. Like, what a big because my friends where I live, like everyone thinks it’s really weird that I’m an artist. I don’t have any artist friends that are local, but I love all the artists that I’ve met across the country that are just huge inspiration.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:53

So, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, that’s the other underrated thing, right? Because you get to maybe go visit them on a trip, or you run into them at another like OPA event or another plein air event, and you get to see how they’ve grown as artists, how you’ve grown as artists. Or maybe they’re like, Oh yeah, you know, I have this gallery, and they’ve been great. You know, I can recommend you vice versa, because in the art world, at least that I’ve noticed, word of mouth really is one of the best things that I’ve seen, because it’s, in many ways, it feels like a very small world. Everyone kind of ends up hearing about everyone else, especially at OPA and like the plein air events. So it’s very important, one, you know, to go out there, and two, to help others as well. I mean, I think, you know, making it a lively, happy community where everyone helps each other through all the tough parts. Because being an artist can be really difficult, is also, I think, the really great benefit of the career, for sure. Yeah, and then, do you happen to have any really good advice, maybe for someone out there who on one side right? So maybe two pieces of advice you might want to share on one side, really, really wants to get better at something they’re not quite good at as an artist. And then, do you have any advice for someone who wants to make a living as an artist?

Stacey Peterson: 39:32

Okay, the first one I feel like painting with other people is a huge one when you’re starting out, if you’re struggling with something. I think that when I was beginning and I was really struggling, it was a huge help for me to go take a workshop, or even, you know, like oil painters of America, when they do their show every year, they have demos and workshops and. And I think that if you’re struggling with anything, it’s very helpful to go watch demos or listen to other artists talk about art and figure out how they’re approaching things, and think about how that can help whatever you’re struggling with. I will say, as I branched out and got a little bit better at art and a little bit more evolved in my career, I have also gone the complete opposite direction and done this slightly hermit like thing when I’m struggling, where I really feel like I need to just lock myself in the studio and work through it. So I feel like at the beginning, it was very helpful to go get other people to help me when I was struggling. But once I knew a bunch of basics about art, I had the tools I needed, but I needed to figure out on my own how to make those tools apply to making a painting look good. And so I definitely, I think, since covid on, I haven’t been traveling for as many shows. I haven’t done any plein air shows. I’ve really just been locked in the studio with myself and trying to work through developing my own style and the things that were bugging me about my paintings, like, How can I fix that using these tools that I got from all these great artists I’ve talked to? But how can I apply that in my own way? So it’s it’s it’s not a very satisfying answer to the question of, like, what can you do when you’re struggling with something? But there is a point where just being willing to, like, stubbornly work on it over and over and scrape the bad paintings and keep working on it is kind of just what you need to do to get there. So I do think there’s a lot of just putting in the hours at some point as well. Like I had years where I was like, I’m just going to try and do 100 paintings, even if they’re little studies. And I think putting in the time helps. The second question was marketing, that one is tough. I will say that like I think that, like a lot of artists, I think that the marketing and selling of my work is probably my weakest area. I will say what I tell most of my students, if they are wanting to get into selling their work and make this career is that they really do need to focus on having their own style in their work. I know a lot of people will go around and take a lot of workshops from the same person, or they’ll like a certain style and so they’ll emulate that. But I find that the most successful artists I know our artists who I can walk into a show and I can see their painting across the room and be like, Oh, that’s so and so’s painting. I don’t have to go read the little sign to see who painted it. If you have a recognizable style that’s all your own, it’s a lot easier to sell your work, especially to get into galleries and shows because you’re not automatically competing with five other people who look like you. So I think that spending the time, and I guess this goes back to the like being a little bit of a hermit, and putting in all those hours is when you go do that. That’s that’s how you develop your style. So putting in the time to develop your own voice is is very important if you want to sell your work,

Laura Arango Baier: 43:24

absolutely, yes, and that’s, it’s one of those funny things, you know, finding your style that it feels like, it’s almost like, when you look at it directly, it disappears. You know what I mean? It’s almost like, like a disappearing object, like you can only see it on, like your peripherals, but directly looking at it makes it disappear. And I think that’s one of those challenges that that so many, especially early artists, have, because, one, they haven’t put enough enough hours in, like you said, but also, I think because they’re trying to chase after something that just takes time, right? Like, it’s not, it’s like your handwriting. We all learn how to, I mean, at least when I was in school, we did calligraphy, or, like, not cursive, right? When you try to do cursive, you have to learn the letters, and then over time, that becomes, you know, like your own handwriting, and suddenly it’s not really like the same exact cursive that everyone else is writing, but that can only happen with so many hours of writing, right? And I think that’s one of those comparisons that I’ve heard quite a bit. But yeah, it feels like this elusive sort of mythical thing. It’s like, oh, my voice is an artist, but how? Right? And I think that’s why it’s such a common question to get. And actually, I have a bit of a follow up to that. How long would you say that you started to notice that you had a style in your work?

Stacey Peterson: 44:59

I think that when i. Started landscape painting, there are certain things that jump out at me about a given scene that I think have been constant, like even when I look at paintings of mine from 20 years ago, there are things that I was really excited about that I’m still excited about in my work. And so I do think when I look at my paintings from 20 years ago, and now I can still see a little bit of that voice back then. Like I love atmospheric effects, like I love the way the mountains turn blue when they’re distant. I love that sort of thing. I love strong light, like the late evening or the early morning. That’s my favorite thing. So I think that that’s been a common thread in my paintings, when I look at things I was doing 15 years ago, that’s what I was painting then, and that’s what I’m painting now. But I think that probably, like 1015, years in, is kind of when I stopped worrying about my style and had done enough painting that it just sort of felt like it is what it is now. And when I see a grouping of my paintings at a show compared to everyone else, there came a point probably, like five, six years ago, where I was like, Okay, you can pick out my work compared to everyone else’s. And it’s kind of just because I’ve been doing this long enough, but now it’s mine, whereas at the beginning, I would take a workshop and I would try and make my trees like so and so, or I would like the way, you know, this other guy painted water, and I would try that. I just don’t do that anymore, now that I’ve been at this almost 20 years. So I think that the longer I’ve been at it, for sure, the more it’s evolved into being just me, and it’s not really something I’ve focused on. It just it’s like, you said the handwriting, I feel like, at the beginning of being an artist, I was like, Oh, I really want my style to be like this. Like, I really like this about other people’s works, and I want to emulate that, whereas now, like, I don’t think about my style at all. I just paint. And there are things I look at in my paintings like, oh, I don’t really like that. I’ve been doing this a lot, and I’m going to fix it, but I don’t really think about it in terms of style. It’s just in terms of technique. Or how can I better say what I want to say?

Laura Arango Baier: 47:15

Yes, yeah. And I love that also, because, like you mentioned, you know, maybe you tried to emulate the way someone else did, especially in the beginning, right? Because in the beginning, just like with handwriting, we learn by imitation, right, which I think is one of the most natural ways that humans learn. Even as children, we imitate what our parents are doing as kids, and I find that it’s very similar with painting and just learning anything you have to imitate it in a repeated sort of fashion, and over time, as you you know, oh, maybe I’m going to try to paint this water the way that I want to paint it, or just using these tools that I’ve developed in my toolbox as an artist, just to see what comes out. And then you repeat the process again and again and again and again. I mean, it’s very iterative process, which is so funny, because that actually reminds me a little bit of engineering, which it seems like it’s a little bit of that, you know, it’s like, it’s so funny because I feel like painting is also very much like the scientific method. You know, you have your hypothesis and you have your variables, and then you have to go through your experiment and then see, oh, what was the result? What variables should I change for the next one? And, etc, etc. It feels like a very logical process for it being a creative process as well, which is very funny, since you also mentioned engineering being very creative. Yeah. It’s the same I’m saying yes, it can be yes, but yeah, do you, by the way? Oh, I also wanted to ask you, because you mentioned that you’ve had students. Do you when did you find that you felt like ready, or that you started getting invited to teach workshops in your career.

Stacey Peterson: 49:03

I think once I’ve been painting, once I’ve been doing this professionally, like maybe five or six years, I had a lot of galleries that would have me come in and give a demo, or at a plein air show, I would give a demo, or they would have us all show up and paint somewhere one night, and the collectors would come around and ask questions, and I really enjoyed doing that, and really liked talking about process and meeting other artists too. So I really enjoyed the teaching aspect of giving a demo. So I started giving workshops. I was asked to do one by, like, some arts organizations, and did that, and then I did some at a local art center. And then for a while, I taught workshops out of my own studio, because I just really, I really did enjoy, like, bringing students into my studio, and just like sharing with each other all week about art. And I think it makes me a better artist to try and. Figure out how to verbalize what I’m doing, makes me really think about what through it what I’m doing as well. So I think it benefits both the student and me when I’m teaching. And it’s not something I’ve been doing as much lately, because I just like, haven’t been able to divvy up my time well enough to give a lot of energy to teaching, but I will definitely get back to it, because it’s something I really enjoy doing,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:25

yeah, and I think also it really it’s another form of networking as well that I’ve noticed, you know, you meet other students, and then sometimes you have returned students, which is really nice, or, you know, you just start building another community of support and care, and then you see how their work develops if they continue painting as well. So I think that’s one of those almost passing it forward thing as an artist where, well, I was taught this, and now I want to teach it because I enjoy teaching, or because I think it will, you know, continue to forward this legacy of painting that we’ve all been holding on to since painting has been one of those very long held human traditions, which I think is also very poetic,

Unknown: 51:09

yeah for sure, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:11

And then speaking of workshops or exhibitions, do you have any upcoming shows? Anything that you would like to promote?

Stacey Peterson: 51:19

Um, I will say I am laying a little bit low this year. I know I shared with you already, but I broke my leg very badly about three months ago. So I have been like, learning how to walk, and I was off of my I was out away from the easel for two full months. So I started out this winter realizing that none of my galleries have any artwork because I had two months off right when I needed to be like finishing and framing stuff for all my galleries. So I have said no to a lot of shows this summer because I really want to work on just getting my work done and getting my galleries stocked. So I’m really just looking forward to all of my galleries everywhere having fresh work for the rest of this year. But I am very much looking forward to I was just invited to join plein air painters of America a few months ago, and so I will be going to their show in southern Utah in May, which is a paint out and then a show. So I’ll be doing a couple studio paintings for that. And really excited to get out there and paint with some amazing landscape painters who I’m really excited to learn from, and also be a part of the show, because it’s just a big honor. And then the oil painters of America show is in Steamboat Springs this year, which is a few hours from here, and I have a gallery right across the street, so I will be going up there for that one as well, for sure, just because they’re always so great to attend so but yeah, beyond those two, I am just really trying to, like, lock in and support my galleries this year, because I ended last year in an unconventional way.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:58

So, yes, yes, that sounds awful. You would think that you’ll be able to paint, though, but it seems a little uncomfortable to try to paint with a giant cast on your leg.

Stacey Peterson: 53:10

I did, I will say, I will say, art got me through. I sat. I was kind of stuck on the couch for a couple months. I was completely non weight bearing, and I felt like I couldn’t oil paint, because it was hard to figure out, like a setup that wasn’t going to, like, destroy my couch in my living room or wherever I was sitting. But I did pick up. I started doing acrylic gouache, and so I did a ton of studies, like I did one a day almost the whole time that I was non weight bearing, and they’re not something I would sell, but it was super inspiring, and got me really excited to get back in the studio. So I will say I did do art. It just wasn’t what I give my galleries.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:50

So yes, yeah, it’s good, because it keeps the practice going. And then, I mean, what else are you going to want to do when you were forced to sit

Stacey Peterson: 53:59

around exactly? I was so grateful. I was like, Oh my gosh. I am so glad I can do this.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:05

So yes, yeah, I think a lot of artists would be very happy to have a forced, forced time to paint. Yeah, oh man. But then if someone wants to see your gorgeous work, whether in person or virtually, where can they see your work?

Stacey Peterson: 54:24

Sure thing. Um, so my website is Stacy peterson.com as simple as it gets, make sure you spell my name right. It’s S, T, A, C, E, y, I have work on Instagram, Facebook and tick tock all under Stacy Peterson art, if you just Google that. And then I have galleries throughout the Rocky Mountain West that show my work. I have sex galleries, which is here in Cherry Creek in Denver. I have wild horse Gallery, which is up in Steamboat Springs, Colorado for. F, O, R, fine art, which is up in white fish Montana and big fork Montana. And then Turner fine art, which is in Jackson Wyoming, and Ballard’s fine art, which is in Sheridan Wyoming. I’m trying to think, am I forgetting, oh, OB, joyful Gallery, which is in Crested Butte, Colorado. So I think I don’t think I missed anyone, but yeah, they’re all mostly up in ski towns. But yeah, stop and do a gallery. That’s where I sell all my work.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:32

So awesome. Well, thank you so much, Stacey, for the very inspiring, actually inspiring and interesting conversation, I definitely changed my perspective on engineering. It feels like we’re engineering paintings now. Oh man. Well, thanks again for being on

Stacey Peterson: 55:53

the show. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It was fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:58

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Next week we are changing the name of this newsletter from The BoldBrush Letter to The FASO Letter. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush, over the years we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes much confusion for most people. So, to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO.

This piece originally appeared on my personal Substack, Clinsights, here.

Editor’s Note: In two days, this post will be locked and is available only to paid members because we don’t want this duplicate content on the open web in a way that might draw traffic away from the original post. You can always read the entire post here.

If you wish to comment on this piece, we are accepting comments on the original post here.

The Spindle and the Kiss: Sleeping Beauty’s Urgent Message for Our Age

Real Art serves to wake people up to the light of Truth, while the “dark arts” of modernity tend to lull people asleep, trapping them within a web of fears and falsehoods. Glamour presented as beauty, entertainment presented as art, and fear peddling presented as “news” are but a few examples.

In the story of Sleeping Beauty, princess Aurora, pricks her finger on a spindle. The spindle is no small symbol. In fact, it symbolizes the ever-spinning, ever-growing machine of modernity. It is this machine that spins the thread of our fate with its wheels and its dangerous “needles” that continually “prick our finger” through the curse of its never-ending spinning. It advances. It demands. It grinds. It consumes. It gets bigger. And it curses us with noise, distraction, urgency, and manufactured fear. Each wound is small. Our sleep is deep.

This curse has nearly succeeded in purging true beauty from our society. It has become a curse woven into the fabric of our lives. Beauty sleeps: Sleeping Beauty.

Meanwhile, the “true love’s kiss” which can awaken Beauty — awaken us to beauty — is a symbol of the awakening power of True Art, which is always infused with the true love of the artist; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

The modern world would like for Beauty to remain sleeping. But we can wake her up through the power of love transmitted to each other through our art.

Of course, art is merely an echo of the ultimate expression of “true love’s kiss” — the kiss of the Divine; the creative grace that wakes us up to the larger truth of reality.

We have, collectively, “pricked our finger” on the spindle of the world and are asleep. And, it is the artists, who imbue their work with the “kiss” of their true love, who provide a means of awakening. When we “kiss” their artworks, we are provided an opportunity to experience a moment of awakening. Beauty awakens through us.

Lewis Hyde, in his book, The Gift, said it better than I can:

Sometimes, then, if we are awake, if the artist really was gifted, the work will induce a moment of grace, a communion, a period during which we too know the hidden coherence of our being and feel the fullness of our lives…any such art is itself a gift, a cordial to the soul.

That moment of grace is the kiss.

For a breath of time, we awaken. We remember. We remember that we are more than consumers and cogs. We remember Beauty.

The “dark artists” of modernity find the true substance of art — beauty — painful; for beauty burns away false ambition, an effect that those who choose to live in darkness would prefer to avoid. That’s why they cursed beauty to sleep in the first place!

But, deep inside, they know that they have turned away from the light, and beauty, delivered to them through real Art, is simply too painful of a reminder to their tiny, fragmented, souls that they have willfully denied the good and are keeping themselves trapped in a prison of their own making. So they try to avoid beauty as much as possible. That’s much easier in a world that has been all but purged of true beauty.

This avoidance has manifested visibly on a cultural level in the modern world as an ongoing war against beauty. We see this avoidance of beauty everywhere: in modern “architecture,” in modern “art,” in “music,” in modern “media,” and in the everyday world around us. I, personally, find it almost physically painful to look upon the areas where we have mowed down beautiful trees to build endless miles of cheap, ugly CMU boxes — our shrines to The Modern Machine and its twin goals of “progress” and “profit.” If we’re going to scrape away the beauty of nature for a building, don’t we have a responsibility to make that building beautiful? This obvious fact is something the ancients understood far better than we do, and we still visit buildings built hundreds of years ago just to marvel at their beauty; and to remember the divine mastery that is possible in the hands of humanity. With our god-like technology, we could be making the world more beautiful with each passing year. But, through us, Beauty Sleeps.

In fact, “true love’s kiss” is the most useful and important function of the modern artist: casting the counter-spells of beauty that awaken others; to awaken “sleeping beauty.” Modern artists, through the power of their art, have been granted the ability to awaken souls from the slumber of modernity and the power to remind humanity of the dangers of the machine-ruled world we are building.

Even her name tells the story: Aurora — Dawn. When Beauty awakens, the light returns. So, if you ever despair that your art does not matter, remember this: she will not awaken through argument. Sleeping Beauty awakens with a kiss. And every true work of art carries one.

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PS - This is one of the themes I explore in my forthcoming book, The Sovereign Artist: The Liberating Power of the Creative Act. If interested, you can join the waitlist here.

FASO Loves Angela Muellers’ paintings

Wouldn’t You Love to work with a website hosting company that actually promotes their artists?

As you can see, at FASO, we actually do, and,
we are the only website host we know of that does.

Click the button below to start working
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Get Started with FASO for Free

PS - If you prefer Squarespace websites, you should check out our Artful Square offering. We can generally save artists money, unlock extra features, and we promote our Squarespace artists too!

Just a quick heads up today: Next week we are changing the name of this newsletter from The BoldBrush Letter to The FASO Way.

Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush, over the years we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes much confusion for most people. So, to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO.

If you haven’t heard of FASO, we are a website hosting and marketing platform for artists. We also provide many free educational resources and content such as this newsletter. You can learn more about us here.

People ask us what “FASO” stands for. While it originally stood for something that no longer matters, it is simply our brand. But, I like to tell people, because it is our philosophy and the place we continually strive to be, that FASO is For Artful Souls Online.

Sincerely,

Clint Watson
FASO Founder
Creativity Fanatic

FASO Loves Phil Couture’s paintings

Wouldn’t You Love to work with a website hosting company that actually promotes their artists?

As you can see, at FASO, we actually do, and,
we are the only website host we know of that does.

Click the button below to start working
with an art website host that actually cares about art.

Get Started with FASO for Free

PS - If you prefer Squarespace websites, you should check out our Artful Square offering. We can generally save artists money, unlock extra features, and we promote our Squarespace artists too!

The Sovereign Artist does not persuade the world of her worth; she simply knows that it is true.

Most artists think marketing means being seen: More posts; more platforms; louder announcements; better timing. And perhaps, just perhaps, a little luck with the algorithm.

But galleries, collectors, and curators aren’t scrolling your feed asking, “Is this artist visible enough?”

They’re asking something far more fundamental: Can I trust this person?

In reviewing the a recent BoldBrush Show interview with landscape painter Cindy Baron, I wasn’t struck by clever tactics or growth hacks. What emerged instead was a pattern — a way of moving through the art world that quietly explains how representation and long careers actually happen.

Cindy never called it marketing. And that’s precisely why it works.

Here are the key lessons I took away from our talk with Cindy:

1. Your Social Feed Is a Reference Check

One of Cindy’s primary insights was this: galleries are watching how artists behave online.

Not because they care about your opinions — but because they’re assessing risk.

Galleries are asking the following questions:

• Will this artist deliver?

• Will they represent the gallery well?

• Will this relationship function well… or will it quietly combust?

Cindy’s approach is simple:

• Keep your feed primarily about the work.

• Allow a light personal layer — family, life, humanity.

• Avoid turning your platform into a battleground.

This isn’t about hiding who you are. It’s about claiming Sovereignty.

Your public presence should reflect self-command, not reactivity.

Professional tone signals professional behavior — and inner authority.

2. Fresh Work Is Marketing

Cindy was blunt about something many artists resist hearing: don’t circulate the same painting through multiple shows and competitions.

From the gallery’s perspective, that signals stagnation. From the collector’s side, it quietly erodes confidence.

Fresh work isn’t just creative growth — it’s proof of vitality.

Consistency says I am here, I am working, and I am not dependent on a single success.

That confident self-sufficiency is a form of power.

3. Don’t Pitch Galleries. Meet Them.

One of Cindy’s gallery relationships began with a move that feels almost subversive in today’s hustle culture.

She walked into the gallery. She didn’t bring work. She didn’t ask for representation. She simply introduced herself.

No pitch. No performance. No neediness.

A year later, the gallery contacted her.

This is sovereignty in action: relationship before transaction; trust before leverage.

Galleries don’t want to be convinced. They want to feel at ease.

4. Let Third-Party Validation Speak First

Another gallery discovered Cindy’s work through a juried show and a magazine feature.

Competitions, exhibitions, and publications act as credibility shortcuts — not because they confer worth, but because they reduce uncertainty.

They whisper: this artist has already been tested.

The Sovereign Artist doesn’t beg for authority.

The Sovereign Artist allows it to accumulate naturally. She acts as gravity that draws authority toward them with the power of her art.

You can get started now by entering our BoldBrush Painting Competition. Every artist gets one free entry per month (and FASO members get bonus free entries each month).

5. Be Easy to Follow, Easy to Buy, Easy to Book

Throughout the conversation, Cindy kept returning to one phrase:

“It’s on my website.”

That’s not accidental.

A clear, updated website removes friction. It answers questions before they’re asked. It signals preparedness rather than pursuit.

Marketing, at its best, isn’t seduction. It’s clarity.

You may think your website doesn’t matter, or even that you no longer need one. The Sovereign Artist knows better. Every sovereign needs a kingdom and, online, that’s your website. Otherwise, you’re just a peasant on some other lord’s land. And, as we’ve discovered the hard way, our tech overlords don’t care much about scorching the land upon which we farm if it suits them.

FASO Artist Websites are designed to be easy and professional for artists and their collectors. You’ll get an art website with all the features needed to properly browse and purchase art for less money than you’ll spend on the bigger, more complicated, and more generic options. We are not “big tech.” We are creatives and our only mission is being a place that encourages human creativity to thrive. Learn more.

6. Professionalism Creates Referrals

Cindy described how she treats collectors: thoughtful communication, clear updates, and respect for privacy.

That’s not merely politeness. That’s stewardship. That’s not overhyped “brand building.” It’s building true reputational power. Reputational Power is one of the elements we teach in our “circles of art marketing” framework. It’s a true power that translates into pricing power.

Collectors don’t just recommend beautiful art. They recommend artists who make them feel something — artists who govern themselves.

7. Choose Channels You Can Sustain

Cindy doesn’t chase every new platform. She stays consistent with what she can maintain.

This isn’t resistance to change. It’s discernment.

The Sovereign Artist chooses depth over diffusion and steadiness over novelty.

8. Quality Protects Your Name

Cindy refuses to rush ten paintings when four strong ones will do.

Because once a work leaves your studio, it becomes part of your name; part of your reputation.

Future-you must live with it and so must the collector.

Quality is not perfectionism: It’s responsibility.

The Deeper Lesson

In the discussion, Cindy never framed any of this as marketing. But taken together, it forms a cohesive framwork:

• Signal reliability.

• Create continuously.

• Build relationships without grasping.

• Let credibility accrue.

• Remove friction.

• Protect your name.

It’s quiet. It’s slow. And it works.

Because in the art world — as in life — authority follows those who have already found it internally.

A Personal Note

After decades of working with artists, I keep seeing the same thing: the ones who last aren’t louder, faster, or more visible.

They are more internally governed.

They don’t chase opportunity — they become trustworthy enough that opportunity chases them.

Chasing the latest marketing tactics didn’t build their careers: Sovereignty did.

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PS - My forthcoming book The Sovereign Artist: The Liberating Power of the Creative Act is coming along nicely. If you’d like to join the waitlist, please click here.

FASO Loves Cindy Baron’s paintings

Wouldn’t You Love to work with a website hosting company that actually promotes their artists?

As you can see, at FASO, we actually do, and,
we are the only website host we know of that does.

Click the button below to start working
with an art website host that actually cares about art.

Get Started with FASO for Free

PS - If you prefer Squarespace websites, you should check out our Artful Square offering. We can generally save artists money, unlock extra features, and we promote our Squarespace artists too!

Get over 50% off your first year on your artist website with FASO:
https://www.FASO.com/podcast/

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Stephanie Marzella, a painter living in Charleston, South Carolina, with a preference for painting intimate landscapes that pull the viewer into the scene as well as big sky landscapes that provide an escape to peace and tranquility. Stephanie discusses her artistic journey, emphasizing discipline and perseverance. She tells us how she transitioned from textile design to oil painting, and how she was influenced by the American tonalists. Stephanie highlights the importance of having a cohesive body of work, having the courage to paint what you want, and suggests making strategic moves if possible; In her case, she moved to Charleston for better artistic opportunities. She shares her experiences with social media, galleries, and the challenges of being an artist, including financial struggles and the need for a supportive environment. She stresses the significance of emotional connection in her work and the joy of seeing her paintings evoke strong reactions in viewers and discusses her spiritual approach to painting, emphasizing the emotional connection between her work and the viewer, which she believes completes the artistic process. Finally, Stephanie lists her current and upcoming exhibitions, including shows at Reinhardt Fine Art, Ballards Fine Art, and the Southeastern Wildlife Expo.

Stephanie’s FASO site:
stephaniemarzella.com/

Stephanie’s Social Media:
instagram.com/stephaniemarzella/

facebook.com/stephanie.marzella.5

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Transcript:

Stephanie Marzella: 0:00

Your heart and soul is tied to your work. It takes courage to paint what you want. Artists are willing to go out on a limb. You know, because, like flying without a net, it takes a lot of courage to be an artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:17

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights for today’s episode, we sat down with Stephanie marzella, a painter living in Charleston, South Carolina, with a preference for painting intimate landscapes that pull the viewer into the scene, as well as Big Sky landscapes that provide an escape to peace and tranquility. Stephanie discusses her artistic journey emphasizing discipline and perseverance. She tells us how she transitioned from textile design to oil painting and how she was influenced by the American tonalists. Stephanie highlights the importance of having a cohesive body of work, having the courage to paint what you want, and suggests making strategic moves if possible. In her case, she moved to Charleston for better artistic opportunities. She shares her experiences with social media, galleries and the challenges of being an artist, including financial struggles and the need for a supportive environment, she stresses the significance of emotional connection in her work and the joy of seeing her paintings evoke strong reactions in viewers, and discusses her spiritual approach to painting, emphasizing the emotional connection between her work And the viewer, which she believes completes the artistic process. Finally, Stephanie lists her current and upcoming exhibitions, including shows at Reinhardt fine art, Ballard’s fine art and the southeastern wildlife Expo. Welcome Stephanie to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? I’m good. How are you today? I’m great. I’m so excited to have you because you are so down to earth. And funny enough, I feel like your work is so magical and mystical. It’s dreamy. So it’s such an interesting reflection of your inner world when you yourself are so down to earth. So I am excited to pick your brain about your extremely beautiful, mystical, amazing tonalist and colorful pieces. But before we dive into your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Stephanie Marzella: 2:32

Well, I’m Stephanie marzella. I’m a landscape painter, and I live in Charleston, South Carolina that I moved to almost 10 years ago now, and mother, daughter, sister, dog lover, nature lover, definitely outdoorsy. Do a lot of walking. And I don’t know that’s a good question. Who am I?

Laura Arango Baier: 3:02

Yeah, it is. I think that’s a perpetual that’s a pretty deep question. Every day I ask that question, yeah, it’s one of those stare in the mirror questions and then dissociate and then get back to work. Right, right. Yeah. Too much time on that? Oh, yeah. But I think, you know, the synopsis you gave is quite accurate and quite great, because it leads right into the next question, which you have quite a unique answer to, compared to many of my past guests. And that is, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist.

Stephanie Marzella: 3:42

I, unlike many of the other artists that I’ve heard interviewed, I did not, at a young age, have some child prodigy esque experience that was like, you’re going to be an artist. It wasn’t like that at all for me. So I, however, I did have a really profound connection to nature, and that’s when I think back to like how that came about. I think that had a lot to do with it. We had a, I come from a Italian family, not a very outdoorsy bunch at all. My mom always was dressed up every day, and, you know, ready for the day, and there was no no go into the park, or, you know, going not up, yeah, definitely not a nature loving family so, but we had amazing backyard that had woods and that led down to a ravine. And, you know, back in the day, you were allowed to go out and play and, you know, experience stuff. So I would go down there, and, you know, climb down the side of the ravine. And then there was, like this babling, Crick. You know, we always said Crick, but. Creek since I’ve moved east, but, um, and I would, I would just sit down there and just, you know, watch the sun sparkle on the water, and just like listening to the sounds of nature, and climbed a lot of trees. And so nature was always, I like to be in the woods, and I really liked trees, so spent a lot of time down there. I don’t think my mom really enjoyed like that, but, um, I did and but it wasn’t, it wasn’t the classical route. I mean, I hear a lot of people saying, Oh, I knew when they came out of the womb that I was going to be an artist. That wasn’t the case. I did appreciate beauty. I appreciate sun. I always love sunsets. Still, my paint a lot of sunsets. I always love the sky and but I, when I I was very lucky to, well, I’ll go back to junior high school, my first real awareness, I used to color a lot, color inside the lines, very perfect and lot of crafts, you know, back in the day, stuff like that. But I in junior high school, I started taking art classes, and I was always interested in the arts. Though, my mother was a dress designer, a performer. She was in the theater, she sang at nightclubs, so it was like always, in that respect, she was very a major influence as far as the arts, and she appreciated the arts. Thank goodness. So because I don’t think I would have went to art school if my mom really didn’t appreciate the arts. So I am very thankful for that. But in like, seventh or eighth grade, I started taking art classes, and I could tell that I was, you know, better than a lot of the kids around me. I really enjoyed it, and that was kind of my first interest in it, in it. But then in high school, we had a vocational high school, so you could either go the college route, or you could go. You could become a cosmetologist or mechanic or a print typesetter or whatever those kinds of things. You could major in commercial art, and you would have like commercial art all day long. But I didn’t want to go into commercial art. But I, you know, I started focusing more on art, but I was focusing on all the arts. And I really didn’t know if I was going to go to art school or go to, like, school for theater or something like that. But, um, I just, I just, I had a really amazing high school art teacher. Just just, I mean, those those teachers are really, really important. So I was really fortunate because I wasn’t going to go the college route, so I filled all my credits for English through the theater. So I never took speech, you know, I never did anything like traditionally, and I never took math after science after ninth grade. I was in all these advanced classes, but I just was like, I don’t want to do any of this stuff. I know I don’t want to do any of this stuff. And by 11th grade, I didn’t I could have graduated. I had all my credits to graduate. So I was like, should I graduate? And I was like, No, I don’t want to do that. Want to have fun. So in my 12th grade year, I decided I was going to go to art school, and I focused on getting a portfolio together, pretty much for my whole 12th grade year. But I had art four hours, visual arts four hours a day, and I had theater an hour a day, and I had like, singing classes, like an hour a day. That was pretty much my whole high school thing. So I had a lot of time to and my teacher was great, all kinds of mixed media. You know, we did everything. We did drawings and, you know, every kind of medium. So he exposed us to a lot, really, really, really fabulous teacher. And that was my path to to it. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t drawing amazing things when I was three or anything like that. So I speak to the people who can come to it a little bit later in life, you know. And that it’s not always, oh, God, I don’t know how you would say it, you know, everybody uses the word passion, you know. And of course, we all have, you know, it takes a lot to be an artist. It’s, it’s not an easy career. And I equate the word discipline and drive, you know, you know, natural talent is great, you know, but you can learn, you can learn to have talent, you know, with perseverance. So I think that that’s really important, and that it’s not always you’re not always born with it,

Laura Arango Baier: 9:48

yes, yeah. And it’s great that you mentioned that, because I think a lot of people put this glass ceiling on themselves very often, about how far they think they can go, versus. How far they can really go if they want to, right? It’s that, like you said, perseverance. So it’s pushing past the I mean, there’s nothing better than at least that I’ve experienced, like, coming from spite where someone says he can’t do that, and then you just go, like, watch,

Stephanie Marzella: 10:20

yeah, I’m gonna do it right. Drives you exactly whatever it takes to create that drive. Hopefully it’s not too negatively based. But you know, whatever makes you do it

Laura Arango Baier: 10:34

is good, yeah, for sure, yeah. And even if someone is talented. I mean, if they’re not even using it, or if they’re not doing anything with it, I mean that the person that’s working their butt off to get somewhere is always going to get farther than someone who’s just sitting around like, Yeah, I’m talented, not painting. I don’t gotta. So you have to

Stephanie Marzella: 10:56

enact, you know, you have to enact it and drive, drive, persevere arts, because, you know, there is days you really have to push yourself, you know, or you know, we all will get into that. But anyways, I wanted to say that I went to the a five year bachelor of fine arts program at the Cleveland Institute of Art, and grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and didn’t go far for college, but it was an amazing school right across the street from the Cleveland Museum of Art, which is an amazing museum still free to this day, and it was and it was a great education, but I don’t think a lot of people know this. I was majoring in glassblowing, so that was my major until, like, my fourth year, and then, and I was in ceramics and stuff, and I was doing a lot of three dimensional stuff, and I was just like, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to, from the, you know, from the idea in my head to the third dimension, I don’t want to go that many steps. And I really didn’t think I would build a hot shop in my like I didn’t see myself going out and monitoring glass at two o’clock in the morning and everything. Although I really loved I loved it, but I switched to textile surface design, textile design and and I majored in textile design and drawing and glass or minored in glass blowing. So I really loved textile design. My mom was a designer. I grew up around sewing and fabric and all that stuff. I love repeat, interlocking repeats, making them really fluid, where people can’t see the lock, you know, all that stuff. So and that was the basis when I graduated from school, I got a job at a wallpaper company, and I started out as a colorist. So when you start out, that’s the lowest level. So you’re a colorist. And we this is prior to computers and all that. And if you ever looked at wallpaper book, so that was popular, as I used to be, but you would like see the same designs and different color combinations, and we were responsible for all those color combinations, and we, we hand painted them all with gouache, you know. So it was really and, you know, all the colors had to sit flat on the wall. Nothing could pop forward or anything. So we, you know, I learned how to work with color, like a lot of color, which continues till this day, even though I do a lot of tonalist work as well, but I use a lot of color.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:31

So, yes, you have an unlimited palette.

Stephanie Marzella: 13:36

I do, I do. I wish. Sometimes I wish I didn’t. Because, you know, I don’t, I don’t travel a ton, but when I do, everybody’s, you know, oh, I’m bringing four colors, you know, I can make all the colors from four or and I’m just like, Oh, my God, oh, speaking of, I’m going to show you unlimited but there’s unlimited palette. Yes, it’s like, there’s probably like 60, I mean, there’s like 60 colors on there. So it’s very hard for me to narrow that down when I travel and I’m very seduced by paint. When I go on the art supply store, I really like, Oh, that’s a new color. Oh, I gotta try that, you know. So I, I wish I had a palette would make things a lot easier.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:23

But then I think the way that you work, from what I’ve seen, is so intuitive that it’s really, you can’t really cage that intuition into just a few colors very easily. But it’s, it is really nice. So to see your tonalist work, which is literally like one color the opposite, yeah, which is exactly total opposite, so you could travel with one.

Stephanie Marzella: 14:50

I really do like, I like, when I one of my, my first plein air events, plan air east, and I did a i. I was a nervous wreck there, but I did a tonal it. I did Tona list pieces, pure sepia toned pieces for like, my competition pieces, which were completely different than everyone else’s, you know. And I know that people were thinking, What is she doing, you know, what is that? What is that brown painting she’s doing? But I loved it. I think they’re amazing. And I had transitioned from working in a lot of different mediums. When I first left the I moved to Chicago with my husband. He was a went to the Cleveland Institute of Art too, and he was a toy designer, and his job paid more than mine. So we moved to Chicago, and then I started freelancing, and was doing wallpaper and fabric design in our apartment. And then I had my son, like, a year later, and I worked in my apartment doing that. And whenever I had free time, I would experiment. I used wash, you know, so I started painting, doing my own artwork and in between freelance jobs. So and I painted everything in that apartment, my teapots, my teacups, my carrots, fruit, everything. And my poor son spent a lot of time in his swing while I was doing my freelance work. But and I and then I started working with like gouache, obviously, because that’s what I did for my job. But then I added past. I was doing mixed medias with pastels, and then I, you know, had acrylics and, like, it just was mixing, like, everything together. And then I phased out of slowly, we moved to Rhode Island, and we lived there for 28 years, and I started slowly doing less freelance work and did predominantly all for years, I did pastels, and I always worked on a dark ground. So I would work on a dark ground, you know, dark to light. I made a conscious decision to switch to oils, because the galleries, well, that was back in the day when they were framing pastels with mats, not the way they frame them now, with no mats, which is fabulous, and you’d ship them, and, you know, the glass and everything, and then the people would get it, and the pastel was on the mat, and then you get it back, you had to reframe it, you know, remat it, and everything. And a lot of galleries didn’t want to show work under glass. So I was like, I’m going to, I got an article in pastel Journal magazine with my, you know, when I had started doing the big skies, low horizons, and then I was so proud of that, and then I promptly switched to oils. And I was like, I didn’t want to fall back on pastels, so I had, like, 1000s of dollars of pastels. I taped them all up in boxes, brought them down into the basement, and I had one, a set of oils, like several years before, at the Copley Society of Art, I was a member there. And it was funny. It was, it was a mixed media piece, like with was my girlfriend’s daughter actually, which I hardly ever do people but, and when they gave me the award, it had like a blurb next to it, like a paragraph. And the award said, We think you should be painting in oils, basically, you know, it said what it liked about the piece and the energy in it and everything. But you should be painting in oils. And I won this really gorgeous set in this gorgeous wooden box of Windsor Newton oil paints with brushes and mediums and everything. Was very seductive, but I had tried it when my kids were little, and then I was using, like, some kind of, I don’t know, terpenoid or something that smelled like oranges. And I was just like, this is going to kill my kids. So like, I don’t, I didn’t like the smell of it, and I was just like, I just don’t think this is healthy. So I just kept with pastels and washed. I was, I used to do big wash still lifes and lots and lots of still lives. So then I went, when I switched to oil the white canvas, having come from a medium where I was working dark to light, the white canvas just was a It was awful. It was like a stumbling block. I couldn’t get the depth. Everything looked cartoony to me, like I just couldn’t get the depth that I wanted. And then I was reading an article. It might have been about Dennis Sheehan or something. I don’t know. I know he how he starts tonally. And I was like, No, that makes complete sense to me. So I did not know how to oil, you know, I really didn’t had I experimented with oils in college, but definitely not the way I do. And I glaze with oils. And I’m very calculating. My process is really slow, but so I started like, I would just paint the whole canvas. Brown, just brown. Like, there’s one behind me that’s in the works, but dark, dark brown the whole canvas, and with really energetic, giant like brushes like this, you know, so like, when I was starting a piece of just, like, warming up, you know, just like, really big strokes, very abstract, cover the whole canvas and then wipe out my image, you know, like wipe out, wiped out the water. Wipe all with towels and rags and cotton balls and Q tips and whatever. And then I have to let that completely dry. And that’s where, then, that’s where all the color comes in. So then that has to completely dry. I work a lot of pieces at one time, and there’s usually like 20 to 40 of them in the studio. And then if the gallery needs something or something, I’ll, I’ll pull something out of the lineup and maybe concentrate on that more to get it, you know, to get it to wherever it needs to be. But then I start building color on there with Windsor and Newton blending and glazing medium. And do want to give a shout out to Gamblin for that their ash color, Ash phalto, because that’s what I do all my tonals. And it’s one color. There’s not more than one color, and it’s it’s a fabulous color. If they stopped making it, I would be very, very upset, and it, it can. It’s just super versatile, very warm brown. So that makes it easier, too. It’s one color.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:34

I totally jotted it down that sounds amazing,

Stephanie Marzella: 21:38

and that’s how I start, you know, it kind of came out organically, like, and I didn’t know how to oil paint, so in a way, this was, like a very kind of cautious way of delving into it, you know, like very thin layers, like very, very thin, transparent layers. And then you and you get colors that you would have never gotten because they’re shining through one another, you know. So it’s exactly, and you get a lot of mood, which brings us to tonalism, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 22:17

And I think that’s, yeah. It’s a very interesting thing that you landed on considering, you know, a lot of your paintings are so colorful, and which is technically kind of the opposite of tonalism. But then, of course, just tonalists that have works that are purely tonalist, and it’s such a particular genre. Why? Like, how did you land on tonalism as your your genre?

Stephanie Marzella: 22:47

Well, I, when I made the move to Rhode Island, that was really my first exposure to, like, the ocean and the way Rhode Island situated, we have, like, New Hampshire Vermont, met like and that was my first exposure to mountains, and I did a lot of hiking. I could kayak out of my backyard, and we had a really beautiful cove, and my studio faced the sunset. That was the first time I had a house where we built a studio. And, you know, because I’ve always had a studio in a extra room, a bedroom or something, you know, so I would, I was still painting, still lives and stuff. But I was, like, always looking at this amazing backyard, you know, where you could kayak out of it. So I started, I was always, I was mixing it up. So I started to do some landscapes, but I went to a show at the Boston Museum of Art, and I cannot, I tried to look it up. I tried to look it up to see that what the name of it was, something like Barbizon to Impressionism, or paths to Impressionism, or something. And I went with a friend, and that show just changed my life. It just sort of blew my mind. That was my first awareness of George Innis. I remember, like, the first time I saw a George Innis painting, and I was like, he paints, like I feel. He paints what I feel, the spirituality of nature, which to me, is like my, I guess it’s like my church, you know, I that’s where I feel the best out in nature. So, but this was my first time where I was like, people, the mood, you know, the emotion, like it just like, moved you to tears. And that was my first awareness of the American tonalists. And I was just like, I cannot wait to learn more about, you know, the American tonalist. And it was like, Dwight, try on, Bruce crane, twalkman, Lathrop, I mean, and I started collecting, like, antique books on them. I like read everything I could read about them. And I. Uh, I just George inniss son wrote a book about him. And like, you know, he was wild. He would like, go into people’s houses when they weren’t home, and like, take paintings they bought, and like, change them. Like, take them back to a studio, change them, you know, they’d come home. It’d be like, different. But it was the first time I was like, when you become a landscape painter, you have to find your own style, which is completely different than the style I had when I was painting still lives. You know, you have to, sort of, you have to develop it. You have to come into your own so that, you know, when people walk into a room, they’re like, that’s a Stephanie marzella right there. You know, that’s what I hope anyways. And it was the first time I felt like it sort of gave me license, which is funny, to paint what I feel, not what I see, you know. And a lot of times, like, when I was be at a plein air event and people come behind me, they’d be like, the sky, sky doesn’t have any clouds in it. That tree’s not in the middle of, you know, or like, you know, that trees in the middle, it’s not on the side or whatever. And I’ve never like all as much as I admire artists who, you know, like, then, like, they show their painting in the midst of a landscape and it matches exactly. And I’m just like, the colors match exactly, and you can’t even tell the paintings there. And it’s like, I’m blown away by that. I’m amazed by that. But I I am there to, you know, put my spin on it. I never paint what’s in front of me. I paint what it makes me feel, you know. And I hope that, I think that’s the strength of my work. It moves, I hope it moves people, you know, emotionally, that they’re not just like, oh, that’s a that looks like a photo. You know, a lot of people think that’s a compliment, but I really don’t, but

Laura Arango Baier: 26:43

yeah, it’s 5050, I think, you know, I think some well meaning people mean it as a compliment, but a lot of artists, a good number of artists, are like, no, but no, like, Yeah, I can’t, please don’t reduce me to a tiny thing that’s attached to your phone, yeah, because it takes so much more work and interpretation than you know. I mean cameras, as we know, and this is a tiny little rant, but cameras, they flatten all the values to get rid of all the pretty colors, all the nuance, so I understand why, you know, well meaning people might say it’s like a picture, and then it’s like, I’m gonna pretend that that’s a good thing. Thank you. Oh my gosh, yes. I can only draw stick figures a penny for every time. We’d be so rich, all of us artists, speaking of, yeah, speaking of artists, too, I think that’s one of those words that I like to ask some of my guests about. And I wanted to ask you, what does it mean for you to be an artist?

Stephanie Marzella: 27:53

I think artists are willing to go out on a limb, you know, because, like flying without a net. It takes a lot of courage to be an artist. It takes a lot of courage for a parent to send their kid to art school too, you know? And artists are young at heart like they don’t. You know, I have artist friends who are, you know, almost 80 or in their 80s, and they, you would never know it. There’s no it’s like a ageless. It’s ageless. Everybody is hard working, they’re fun, they’re adventurous, they’re still out there in nature, they’re still camping, they’re traveling. It’s a pretty unique group of people, and I’m honored to be that. That is what I I can do for a career. But, um, I think that a lot of people may have, like, a misnomer, that we’re just having fun, you know, like, you know, everybody’s just like, you get to paint all day, you know, and but there’s like, so much more to it, and you’re not sitting in front of your easel, you know, like going, it’s you, you have. I am exhausted after a day of painting. It’s like a trillion decisions. Every mark you make is a decision. And sometimes we talked about this the other day, like, you make a mark, you do something that’s amazing, like, and you’re like, I can’t even believe I just did that. And in the next minute, you destroy it accidentally. And you’re just like, No one’s ever gonna say that it doesn’t exist anymore, you know, but it’s, I hope I leave a mark, you know? I mean, who knows? You know what’s gonna go down in history anymore, but you know, I think I’ve made my my mark, and I. I’m, you know, I’m proud of that so, but I I’m just lucky to be one an artist, your heart and soul is tied to your work. You know, like not underestimating or because I’ve never really even done that many traditional jobs, but like, sometimes I think, oh, it would be nice to have a job where I’m not emotionally attached to it, you know, my work is emotional, and I put a lot of effort into it. And then, you know, when, when you have it out there on the market too, or, you know, in a, you know, a flurry of sales, and you’re flying high, or, and then all of a sudden, there’s a month you’re just like, what’s happening? Am I going to be able to pay my mortgage? You know, that is not easy. So when people are like, Oh, you’re an artist, you’re so lucky. I mean, they they really have no idea what what they are talking about as far as the scope of what it takes to be an artist. And we do, I think collectively, we do have a joy of life that a lot of people don’t have. And, you know, we will take the time to, like, go chase a hurricane, you know, to take photos and to, you know, sit somewhere, to watch sunset and to walk in the woods and do all that stuff. You know, that’s like an added plus, but it takes tenacity, man, perseverance. Discipline. Discipline is the biggest thing. If you don’t have discipline, you are not going to be able to get over those hurdles when you’re questioning your talent. You know when you haven’t had sales for a while, when social looking at social media, and you know, every you know, everyone posts. You know we’re not going to post, oh, having a bad day today, or, you know, painted horribly today. You know we’re going to paint our triumphs, our accolades, you know. And sometimes that’s hard, you know, if you’re in a slump, and then you see, you know other, your friends, whatever, your colleagues winning awards or doing this or that. And it’s it’s discipline that gets you through that. And the best thing as soon as soon as you get back to these zones, soon as you start painting, you go into that zone, and you know that is the best remedy for any of those, especially the down moments, is to just get back to your easel. That’s that’s the place you need to be, you know. But there’s a lot of other things it takes to be an artist, too. You know. There’s a lot of the business of art, networking, shipping, creating, packing, unpacking, ordering frames, ordering supplies. Yeah, that’s what it means for me be an artist. I love it, and it’s a lot of hard work. It is.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:56

I mean, with great freedom comes great responsibility. And I totally agree with your how you’ve how you’ve seen you know people who you know you you see them and they just, they’re so ageless, but they’re 80, and they’re so bright and so youthful, right? It’s like I was literally just saying, like, yeah, you know, maybe the fountain of youth is just having a creative career, because you have this way of, like, getting out all of these, these things that a lot of people keep inside of them, and then, you know, kind of haunts them. But also, like the typical day job can be so monotonous and sad, and I feel like when you’re an artist, it’s very much not monotonous, like it’s a whole new painting every time. It’s a whole new demon you got to face. It’s a whole new mountain to climb, in your case, whole new tree to climb, if you want. So it’s, it’s very it’s much more what’s the word? There’s, there’s just something new every day, compared to, you know, the typical day job that a lot of people would have, and it never, it never

Stephanie Marzella: 34:03

gets easier, if any, if anything, it gets harder. I’ve talked to a lot of my artist friends. Sometimes they’re like, gosh, you know, I just was looking back at some old work of mine. And I think that sometimes I think my older work was better, you know, and you’re just always trying to top yourself. And every to me, every painting is a is a puzzle. You know, it’s like solving a puzzle. And then, you know, people always ask you, when, how do you know when a painting is done? That question and all the only I’m actually trying to leave a painting sooner than that’s one of my goals, is to leave a painting sooner than I would have in the past. Think it’s a Virgo thing, but just to leave it alone, you know. And like, you know, people always, you know, as artists, we send photos and stuff to our friends, like, this is what I’m working on, you know. And they’re like, it’s. Done, you know? And you’re like, No, it looks better in the photo, you know, it’s, it’s not done, but, um, just to, I want to try to, like, not be so what I consider, like perfect, you know, about stuff, I want to, I want to leave some unfinished quality, like, not unfinished, but I like to leave a layer. I like to leave a layer, since I glaze something from every light layer exposed. Still, I don’t, you know, I want there to be proof of, like, kind of each layer. And not sure, I think I trailed off there.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:39

But, no, I think it’s, it’s an ever continuing dialog that an artist has with their work, right? Like it’s a conversation that spans not just like one painting, but it’s all the paintings forever and ever. And I think that’s really interesting, because that really, you know, makes me think more about, you know, how, as artists, we have these two sort of, like these two things that can happen to us, especially when we’re trained, which is, you and we talked about this last time, you know, the whole feeling of, you know, feeling this obligation to paint a particular thing, or to paint a particular subject, versus what do I actually want to paint? Right? And I think that’s one of the hard parts of especially, you know, probably throughout the entire career of an artist, but especially at the beginning, because it’s so easy to be so pulled in by obligation. But then I’ve noticed, at least with my work, that every painting I’ve done out of obligation, it’s just not, it doesn’t have that quality, you know, it’s missing that something, you know, it

Stephanie Marzella: 36:49

takes courage to paint what you want. Like, I’ve had people say, like, oh, or, you know, she says, I have the low horizon line, the big sky, you know? And that’s my that is my absolute favorite thing to paint, and it’s usually, if I go plein air painting, you know, that I’ll I come up with, like, sort of a, you know, different, kind of a different composition, which I do need to do that. But I, to me, my landscapes are, there’s such a huge abstract area, and every one of them, like, if anything, I’d like my work to be born abstract. So the whole, you know, it’s set in a like, I live in the low country here, but when I lived in Rhode Island, I was, I am in love with marshes, like I am not really. I can’t really paint the ocean very well. I’ve tried, but, like, marshes just really speak to me quiet water. And it has to do with my whole spirituality, reflectiveness, you know. And one of I told you this the other day, but one of my best experiences in my life was I lived on this tidal Cove, and moving to Rhode Island too was my first awareness of tides. You know, tides are huge and how much a tide can change a landscape. So you could paint the exact same view at a different hour every day, and it’s completely different, because the tides go in, they go out, they’re high, they’re low, Moon tides, whatever. And I that was really influential. And like I would see I, you know, that was my favorite time of the day when the water was absolutely still, which tend to happen, you know, at Slack tide, between the tides, but like at sunset, and it would just the water would just be still, you know, and it is. It’s like inner peace. It’s so peaceful. So I could kayak out of the backyard. And this was also besides the American tonalist, that was a changing point in my work. Was I was kayaking. It was like at sunset, and the water was completely reflecting the sky, but it was all peach, like a peach, like a coral, like satin. And was like paddling. It was like paddling through silk sharmoose, which is a fabric that’s like, so quiet and, you know, and that is just, that’s what it that is what I want to paint. That’s my favorite thing to paint, so and I have the whole sky in the water to do whatever I want. And I like to work with texture too. I use golden molding pace, if you like. Zoom in on some of my paintings on Instagram, you’ll see that there’s like, a texture there. And I do that sometime. I love different mediums. I love different it’s part of my problem too. When I go on a painting trip, is because I can’t say, oh, I have these four colors I use, and then this is the surface I always paint on. That’s the huge problem for me. I like to make I make some of my own surfaces. I paint on canvas, I paint on panel. I paint on panels that I make with golden molding paste on them. So it’s like gesso then molding paste, then gesso again, and just I get. I like that. You know, if I had a bigger studio and I had a big work table, like a flat work table, where I could do more kind of more experimenting, that would definitely be something I would love to have. But the like, I’m painting nature, but there’s a lot of abstract qualities in my work. So, like, I really like simple compositions, so that I can just have work with the beauty of paint itself, in the application of the paint and lost edges. And, you know, I like, like, it’s, I want it to be an escape, an escape from reality. That’s what, you know, I want. Like, I wanted to transport you somewhere I don’t really, I’m not, like, a site specific painter, you know, people say, like, where is that? And it’s collect, you know, it’s remembered. It’s pieces of this, pieces of that, like I do sometimes construct a painting on on the computer, where I take part of a marsh, you know, from over here, and a sky from another photograph that I took. I’m a horrible photographer, and just, you know, sort of piece it together for, like, an idea, you know. And then, sort of, I don’t, I know a lot of artists like, you know, seeing like, they work from these big screens, you know, they’re, they have, like, big screens, and they’re painting exactly what they see on the screen. And I cannot do that. I cannot do that. I mean, a lot of it is created in the process of painting the painting. And you never get Ramona young quest, and I talk about this all the time, but you, even though you have a style, and every you know you people know that that’s my work, every time I am starting a painting, it’s like, I’m still questioning which brush to grab, which color to choose, and I’m like, am I going to be able to Do it? Am I going to be able to figure this out? It doesn’t get it doesn’t get easier. It never gets easier. You know, still, like, is this the right brush for this? Like, like, sometimes you’re just but you do know what you’re doing, you know you do, but you feel like you’re reinventing the wheel every time. At least for me, it doesn’t, it doesn’t get any easier.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:22

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, you know, yes, I can totally relate to that, especially in the which, which brush should I use? Question, but what’s funny is that, in the end, right? You go through all this agonizing, right? You’re like struggling in front of this, this painting, which is kind of comical, if we think about it, but then in the end, it’ll still look like you’re painting, right?

Stephanie Marzella: 44:27

And that is the magic. That’s a, you know, it’s not magic, it’s discipline. You took years to develop that style, but there’s still, I told you the other day that I have brushes like this brush here. Let’s see. Know how to use this all right, my brushes are destroyed. I don’t I don’t even know what this brush is. I would have to pull all my brushes out and look at the, look at the and try to figure out even what brand it is. But like, I am jealous of artists who are like, Oh, I just got my new brush. Is, you know, and they use these set brushes, and they can do a whole painting with one brush, you know, I have, like, you can see, I’ll turn my computer. I have, like, a lot of brushes over there. I have brushes from college, still. I have brushes that look like a squirrel’s tail tied to a stick, you know, like, I don’t know how I mostly use chip brushes, like the little hardware store brushes. And I just, I just, sort of like I do. I wish I had, sometimes, I wish I had a set palette. I wish I had a set surface, you know. I wish I had a set size. I like to work, you know, just, I am just all over the place, and that’s kind of the excitement of it. But then it’s kind of a, kind of makes it more it kind of makes it more difficult sometimes, too. You know, like, it’s like, what surface should I paint, especially when I go, when, when I go plein air painting, like at the plein air events, I have to credit, we were talking about plein air the other day too, but I have to credit, like, point when I did plan air Easton, it really connected. I mean, I do recommend that I very get extremely stressed out at a point air event. And it took a little bit of the joy out of it for me, because I used to go plein air painting long before it was a thing with my old French easel, you know, and with my girlfriends. And there was just no pressure. We were just out there. We knew we drinking after, and it was just had a great day, you know. And there wasn’t a pressure to have a finished, sellable, award winning painting when you were done, you know. But that experience, and especially plenary Easton was, I highly recommend it, because it connected me to so many artists and and then, you know, social media, obviously, we didn’t have that when we were younger. So you could admire an artist on the west coast, but you know, you just read about them in a magazine. You know, it wasn’t like you had your phone number or anything. So like that is one you know, blessing with social media is to be able to reach out to people and have galleries reach out to you, and you know, to be have direct contact with people by, you know, through messaging and stuff, but the friendships and the valuable friendships and connections made through that event are everlasting, you know, so as much as I did not enjoy the anxiety of it, because I, you know, I admire the artists who are, like, out there, three, I’m good for a painting a day. It takes me forever, like, good five, six hours to do a painting, and then I’m exhausted. But, you know, some people go out morning, noon and night, and they’re, you know, they have a flashlight on their head, and they’re smoking cigarettes and talking to their friends, and they seem like they have limitless energy, and they’re really enjoying it too, you know. And they’re talented, you know, that was definitely not my experience, but that connection made in that world is, it’s fabulous. And those artists are really amazing. So I do recommend that. I do recommend it if, whether you’re doing it on the local level or national level, you know, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:13

And that actually seamlessly flows into, you know, the side that I like to, you know, ask, which is, you know, the more of the marketing, business side of being an artist. Because, since you’re, you know, since we’re discussing bit more of that networking aspect, you know, in your experience, do you find that networking has it helped your career a lot as an artist?

Stephanie Marzella: 48:39

Yes, of course. I’m trying to think of a specific example, but, um, yes. And I think the you know, with the galleries too, they’re they’re following you on social media. Now, my Instagram is 100% pretty much my artwork. And anybody who follows me on Facebook knows I love my dogs, so they’re heavily featured on my you know, my Facebook is art and my life, basically. But I think people, everybody has different opinions. But I think people like having a sense of who you are, you know, a little bit of a little peek into your life. You know how you live, or what you do, or what your kids look like, or what your studio looks like, you know, it makes it, it makes a connection that I think is is valuable, and it says who you are as a person, you know. So I don’t stick strictly to business with Facebook, but I think I, yeah, I think I make some pretty I don’t make a lot of moves, but I make strategic moves, you know, and like moving to Charleston was a strategic move. I lived in Rhode Island for 28 years, and I miss it greatly, and all my friendships there, but I. The New England art scene at the time. It’s coming back now, or, you know, there’s more, a little more options there, but there were not the amount of galleries that are here in Charleston, South Carolina, and people come here to buy art. And so that was I was like, living in a century home in Rhode Island. My job’s a mobile my husband’s job is mobile. And I was like, I know I can make a lot a better living down in South Carolina, you know, and I could get a new house with three prong plugs, which was very enticing after having a century home. And I know that my income will significantly go up. We moved to South Carolina, and we just did it. You know, took a long time to sell our house, but we picked up and we moved and that was everything I hoped it would be. You know, there is, like, a huge art community here. There’s, there was even more galleries when I moved down here. But, like, there’s, we have a French Quarter here with, like, a lot of galleries, you know, where you can walk, and, you know, every month they have an art walk, and you can just hop from gallery to gallery. And I’m very lucky to have the gallery that represents me now, rein art here in rein art, fine art in Charleston, and one of the finest galleries I’ve ever been represented by, with a really professional team in that gallery. And you know, it takes a long time to work up to that level. Now, I think I want to talk about some young artists like coming in. But back to social media. So like, I have been contacted by galleries through Instagram, and a lot of things came about organically. Like, I’m represented by Ballard’s fine art out in Sheridan Wyoming. And when I was my first awareness of her, you know, all of a sudden, I just started seeing her and her collection of art. And I was like, this woman has really amazing taste, you know, and I think she really represents some really nice, you know, really, really solid artists. So I just wrote her a note, because I she sort of came out of nowhere. And I was just like, I just wanted to say, I think you really post some really gorgeous work. I really respect the artists you collect. And it was, it was honest. It was just totally honest. And then she just wrote me back, you know, a few days later, and she’s like, I really like your work, you know, but you know, I love the emotion in it. I love the softness of it. And, you know, I’d love to have a couple of your pieces here at the gallery. And so that totally was, you know, messaging, just messaging somebody, you know, you never know what’s going to come out of it. And galleries are following you, you know, like on Instagram and stuff, you can see, you know, who’s following you. And that’s how it happens. A lot of times you see someone following you. You see them like, you know, repeatingly, you know, liking your work and stuff. And then you could tell. You could tell. And then, you know, then it’s like, I could tell they like my work, you know, either they reach out to me or I’m gonna, you know, I could reach out to them because you know that they’re looking, you know, every time you post the story or whatever, you know. So it’s information, it’s information. And I told you, I told you the story from back, back in the day, but when, before all of this stuff, they basically before the internet, was like, I was reading, I used to get pastel Journal Magazine, because I was a pastel artist, and I was just like, Man, I want to be in This magazine, you know. So I, and that was back in the day when we had slides, and we had a mask them off with silver tape. And, you know, if you wanted to be in something, you had to send a sheet of slides and, you know, type your resume and all that stuff. But I called and the Maggie price, the editor, or whatever, of the magazine, you know, I asked to speak to her, and I and she, you know, she got on the phone, which is amazing to me, and I just said, I said a little white lie. Just, I just said, I, you know, I’m curious how you can get, how you get featured in your magazine, because I would really like to be featured in your magazine. And I said I had a dream last night. I opened the magazine, and there was a story about my work that was not true. I was dreaming of being in the magazine and hoping I would be in an event. I didn’t actually have a dream, just, you know, a little spin on the words. And she said, Send me. You know, your work. She was a delight, and she passed away sadly, but she was a fabulous woman, and she, you know, like in that, you know, you had to mail everything out, and everything you know, wasn’t like anything. Nothing was immediate. It. And then I came home one day and, like, there was messages on the answering machine, you know, it was like her, and she’s like Stephanie, this is Maggie price. I’m gonna make your dreams come true. And I was featured in the magazine, and then I promptly take up all my pastels and switch to oils. But I just, you know, it was a beautiful article, you know. But it’s like, you know, a little creativity there. But it takes guts, you know. It takes guts to call, to make a blind call, takes guts every time you send your, you know, especially back in the day, every time you send those slides out and, you know, hope for the best and stuff like that, you know. And like, when I recently went on a trip with the wild women and Bob Baier, who’s a who’s a writer, was a writer for plein air magazine, you know, I was like, he’s probably looking for material, you know, fresh material to write about and stuff. And then I, you know, I contacted him, and I said, you know, I’m going to go on this trip with these fabulous women painters, and it might be something you’re interested in writing about, you know. And then he did. He wrote about it, you know. So it’s, and that’s all through social media. That’s all through just, you don’t even have to get the courage to call. You can just send a message, you know. I mean, it’s really, I mean, what’s the worst that can happen?

Laura Arango Baier: 56:26

Yeah, you don’t say no, and that’s it, right? Nothing to lose. Definitely. Yeah. And then you started mentioning too about, you know, younger artists and, like, you know, getting kind of, like, leveling up slowly. Do you mind expounding on that a little? Yeah, so

Stephanie Marzella: 56:45

I feel for younger artists today, and I’m very honest about my journey, like I gave you a little bit of things. So I was a textile designer. We moved I started freelancing, and had my kids, and then my free you know, in between jobs, I could experiment and start doing my own artwork. And that’s when I started to do my own artwork. I also got involved in a lot of a local we were in Chicago for a couple years. So, like, Chicago’s huge, and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of art stuff around Chicago, and Chicago a lot of art groups. And I got, didn’t know anybody you know, starting from scratch. So I joined, like, different art Evanston Art Center, and I don’t even know, like Schaumburg Art Center, all this stuff, and started meeting people that way, and like, getting a little more into art and exhibiting and entering competitions. In addition to doing my freelance work. Then my husband was a toy designer, and so he we moved to Rhode Island because he got a job at Hasbro So, and this is circling back to younger artists today, or single artists, or whatever, back in the you know, in the day, we didn’t have to have a cell phone plan, we didn’t have to have the internet. We weren’t paying off college debt from college tuitions that cost an exorbitant amount. You know, we could work a summer job and put a dent in our tuition. You know, nowadays you you know that is, you know, some, a lot of kids are leaving college with a huge financial debt to start their life out with, which I think is daunting, you know, and so. But we when I moved to Rhode Island, I was still freelancing and everything, but I was starting to do more and more artwork and exhibiting in galleries, local galleries, not really like but New England’s kind of small, a lot of so I was in galleries in Maine and Massachusetts and all around New England, and I’m going to lose my train of thought. Bring me back to what I was saying. Oh, so then I started, like, just doing a little bit more of that. But I was in a situation where I was married, I was taking care of kids. I had a studio in my home, and I had a partner who had a weekly paycheck and health insurance. Okay, so I know a lot of artists, when they’re interviewed, they, you know, they, they, I’m speaking for myself. I know they’re like, I worked really hard, hard. I worked at night, I had 10 jobs or whatever. But that wasn’t my case, and I think that a lot of a lot of women artists, a lot of my colleagues, you know, we were able to juggle being a wife, being a mother and like maybe freelancing, but also having time where, you know, we didn’t have to go out every single day to so that our family had health insurance or whatever, so we had that ability to juggle a lot of things and focus on art. Now I myself am not the kind of person who can. I need to paint natural daylight, so I can’t. I could do the business of art at night, but I am really, really disciplined that I’m in my studio. I like to work a. Day shift. I like to have my evenings to myself, so I don’t work around the clock, so I feel a little spoiled. I do think, if people speak realistically, there’s a lot of artists who had a partner of some kind, you know, a wife who was had a full time job, or husband who had a full time job that made it easier for the fine artists to become a fine artist or transition. You know, now, you know it’s now. I am no longer married, but I am with my longtime partner now, and he is a long haul trucker, so he’s gone all times. I could focus like 100% on my work, and it’s but, I think, but you know what I mean, I had that cushion. I think some people might have. I’m just trying to be real. Some people have family money. Some people, oh, and the only ways, so going back to that. So after I got divorced, when I the reason I was able to because my friend, a meaning. Friends are like, you’re not gonna be able to make it as an artist, you know? You better get realistic. You’re gonna need to go get a real job, you know? And I was just like, they don’t know me. They don’t know how determined I am. And I took class. I went to bartending school. It’s like worst case scenario, March end at night, you know, because it can’t paint at night and but I the reason I personally was able to continue was because our house appreciated in values so much. My husband and I bought a house. We had it for six years. We ended up getting divorced. That house appreciated a beautiful amount, and it was the profit on that house that gave me the cushion to make it from 2006 a good eight years where I had that to fall back on if I didn’t make enough money to pay the mortgage or something, you know. And it was still really scary. I taught, like, lessons in my house and, you know, mixed it up, but and then when I moved down here, it wasn’t until I moved down here and started getting it was started to be represented by Ryan art that, you know, it was a long haul. I’m 64 now. You know, it’s not like it happens overnight. And I just think if I was a young artist today, I think they have such a bigger challenge. So, like, either if I wasn’t in a relationship where somebody was bringing in stable income or something like that, I’d probably have, I would make a strategic move and I but I also would probably move somewhere affordable, like, maybe it’s not clear, close to a gallery scene or something, you know, but somewhere, and I am very willing to live very frugally, you know, maybe not in the best surroundings. And I would probably have roommates. You know, my daughter, she’s she lives in a loft in New York City, and she has like, five roommates, and they’re all artists of different types, but that’s how they do it, you know. And social media is a huge help. I mean, these younger kids have a they know all the tricks with social media and stuff, you know, and where that’s hard for me, you know, but I think it’s a much harder road for now. All we needed was a roof over our head and ramen noodles, pretty much, and you could live really affordably.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:45

So, yep, yeah, exactly. There’s so much more added on top of, like the starter pack, right for for an artist, especially now that you know, since you mentioned also social media, so much of it is content creation and recording this and photographing that, and that’s

Stephanie Marzella: 1:04:06

so time consuming. That’s so time consuming, like, I feel like I’m old fashioned, you know? And like, social media is a little bit of a chore for me, you know? It’s not something I gravitate I like when, before they change the algorithm? You know, I post a painting and get like, 5000 likes on it, you know, and now it’s like reels and like, the way it was before better, you know? But it’s just like, simply gotta stay out there, you know, you gotta keep your website going. You gotta, like, it’s a lot of work. But I just, I do feel for younger people, I think, I think it’s a little bit harder road.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:43

Yeah, and it’s definitely it also feels unpredictable, to say the least. Now that, you know, we have AI and we have all of these things happening all at once, that it’s like, oh my gosh, how can I even what’s even going to happen?

Stephanie Marzella: 1:04:59

It’s. It’s moving so fast, if it’s moving fast for you,

Unknown: 1:05:04

oh, goodness, yeah, imagine how fast it’s moving for

Stephanie Marzella: 1:05:07

us, you know. And it’s, yeah, you know, it’s a journey,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:13

wild, yes,

Stephanie Marzella: 1:05:15

it’s funny too, because I remember, like, you know, being I was a member of the Providence art club in Rhode Island, you know, just looking at the older women artists, like, you know, that you admired and and just thinking, wow, there’s like, they’re really up there in their careers, and I really admire them. I want to go talk to her, but like, I’m nervous too. And then all of a sudden, you’re that older woman artist, you know, you were saying, like, the joy of like, it just it takes, you know, it’s a long time, but it’s like, you know, to earn the sort of the respect you deserve in this industry. You know that you in this industry, and you know, and then before you know it, you’re the, you’re the 80 year old artist still doing it out there that people you know, time is like flying by, but you still feel like you’re young, you know, yeah, young in spirit. And that’s what I love about being an artist, you know, that never goes away.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:12

Hopefully, hopefully, yes. I was gonna say the same thing, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, do you have any final advice for someone out there who wants to become a full time artist,

Stephanie Marzella: 1:06:26

besides overcoming the financial struggles of it, I would say I’ve said it before in this interview, is, is, it’s discipline. It’s 100% discipline. I that’s the biggest thing I can attribute to making it in this career and making it through. I’m really emotional person. I can get depressed. I can get down. All my friends, know, you know, when I’m talking to them on the phone, I’m like, you know? But it’s perseverance, it’s, it is it really comes down to discipline. I think that’s the some people say, passion, whatever. I think it’s discipline now, it’s like, you gotta, you gotta get in that studio. You know, can’t be here and there, you know, granted, if you’re juggling a job that you know, that makes it a lot harder, but it’s just and you have to have a style now. So that’s one thing. Younger people ask me about approaching galleries. How did you do it? How did you approach galleries, or whatever? And the one thing is, you have to have a body of work. I mean, that’s, I think, and it has to be, it has to look like you did it all. You have to, you know, you have to have a style. You know, you don’t want to, unless your style is like, really, and you do. You can do whatever, people, dogs, landscape and it all, you know. You know, some artists can do everything. I wish I could, but I can’t, and my heart is in landscape. But the you have to have a solid body of work where it’s signature work, you know, like that. That’s who you are now, granted, our work is going to change gradually over a course of a career. But you can’t bring in, you know, approach a gallery with random different paintings, or, you know, different mediums. You have to look like you’re solid in what you’re doing, and they have to know you’re going to be producing that kind of work, and you’re going to be bringing it in regularly, you know, you know they can’t be when you when you get to this level, like, you know, my gallery, they call me. I probably missed a call of theirs a handful of times in the 10 years they’ve been, I don’t know how long it’s been, eight or nine years this, this gallery. I mean, they’re like, I don’t care what I’m doing. When they call, they’re I’m answering the phone, you know, and whatever they need. I’m very fortunate that my gallery is here in town, and they are responsible for the majority of my sales, and I could just paint the work and drive it downtown. I don’t have to pack it or ship it. I’m spoiled, you know. But it’s, again, lost my train of thought. But that’s, it’s, you know, tenacity, I don’t know, but and living with other people, sharing costs, sharing costs, you know, but the when you were approaching galleries like you have to Well, when I moved here, I was represented by a lovely gallery too, and a little bit smaller and but I would, I had no friends here at all. I didn’t know any, you know, I knew of the artist through social media, but I didn’t know any so I went. I would go every month, Charleston has a Art Walk, and I would start out at the gallery that represented me, dare Gallery, and that I would go right down every month, down to the best gallery. So it’s kind of like a line of them. And I made a point to make that people. Knew who I was, you know, I would be like, I’m new in town, blah, blah, blah, and I was there every month. And the part of the reason I think Reiner, I was always, I always ended the Art Walk at their gallery, because our gallery was the most fun. Had great food, and they, you know, represented some great people. And you have to really put, you know, you have to put yourself out there. You have to put yourself out there in the eye, you know, in that in the gallery. You just never know. So I wasn’t even really sure. I know I wanted to approach them eventually. I’m not even sure how it kind of organically came about. But someone had seen one of their buyers who only bought work from their gallery, saw my work somewhere else, and was very moved by it. And then that woman who I’ve never had the privilege of meeting, told Reinert gallery, you really need to check out this woman’s work. Nobody does skies like she does. And that’s how that came about, word of mouth, you know, you’re like you never know. And they took it to heart. You know, they checked out my work and but they knew me from coming in the gallery all the time, you know, and I had some friends represented there. So, you know, it’s good to get yourself out there. It’s not easy to move when you’re in your 50s. You know, I left friendships that you know, 30 year friendships in Rhode Island and art connections. All of our friends were artists, and to go start over somewhere new, to take a risk like that. But it often pays off. But you have to get yourself out there and like let people know who you are and that you moved there, and that you exist and that, you know, because I think a lot of artists are, you know, we’re, it’s weird. We’re extroverts and we’re introverts, you know, like, I am really, like a homebody, you know, I like to be, I like to be in my house, and I really admire the so many of my colleagues like travel, like, on a monthly basis. Like, I honestly, I’m very fortunate that I can make my living painting in my studio, you know. Like, I like to go on trips and stuff. I hate to leave. My dogs I hate and they’re costly to leave. But, um, like, the amount of different things artists are doing to make a living, you know, teaching, teaching workshops, traveling, then we’re traveling for inspiration and ideas. And it’s such a huge it’s like social media, traveling, teaching workshops, demonstrations, entering competitions. I’m not, I’m really not a competition enterer, but all the different things, it’s like, it’s a lot of hats,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:48

you know, yes, exactly. It’s so much to keep track of, but, you know, I love that. In the end, it’s what you said, you know, I’m grateful that I can do this, because there is, in my opinion, there’s a payoff, which is, you feel fulfilled, right? You feel like you wake up in the morning and it’s like, Huh? I’m at peace, you know? Like, yeah, maybe some days you can have, like, some some mood shifts, but in the end, you know, you go back to your easel and you’re painting, and you’re sending your work, and someone’s buying it and admiring it in their home. You know, it’s like, that’s kind of crazy. When you think about it, I

Stephanie Marzella: 1:13:29

never consider a piece finished. We’re tapping on it before. When is it done? To me, it’s done when I start, like, it’s when the puzzle is finished. You know, like I’m looking around a canvas, and I’m like, nothing’s sticking out weird to me anymore, you know, like I’m looking, looking, looking, come back, you know, give it fresh eyes, looking, looking, looking, put it aside for a day, and then just like, nothing’s because usually there’s something, it’s like, I don’t like that, like, what’s happened there that’s sticking out too much. And then when it finally has that, I call it the hum, when it’s just nothing is jumping out at me, saying, Okay, you gotta fix me, you know. And then that’s when it’s done for me. But to me, when a piece is truly finished, is this cheapens it somehow, like when someone buys it, but it’s when someone, I mean, think of the rare connection that is. So I’m expressing myself on Canvas. So, you know, I’ve taken years to to come up with this style or whatever, and it’s hanging on a wall in a gallery. And I do a lot of little pieces too. I always will do little pieces. They’re labor intensive. You do not get not cost effect is effective, but I always want, I love small art. I can mostly collect small art, and I love that. I always want to have something lower end cost wise for new collectors. You know, whatever I like, I like all I love small art, but it’s when someone com. Comes into a gallery they don’t even know you exist. They don’t even know your work exists. Some people are coming in to see your work specifically, okay, but that they see your painting. And I know that my work moves people because my gallery calls me and tells me somebody was crying in front of one of your paintings today, and they had told you the story where they called me one day and said this man who was not an art lover, didn’t frequent galleries, you know, was there with friends in Charleston visiting, and he started crying in front of one of my paintings. And like, his wife was just like, what’s going on, you know? Like, she was like, I think she was embarrassed or something. And he was just like, I don’t know what’s going on. Like, he’s like, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t even know, like, what’s happening right now, there’s just something about this painting that’s, I don’t know it’s, it’s, and he couldn’t really verbalize it, you know. And that, you know, it connected to his heart, and it moved him and moved him to tears. You know, my paintings can move me to tears, but it’s because they’re frustrating me sometimes.

Unknown: 1:16:05

Anyways, the that is an amazing

Stephanie Marzella: 1:16:10

you know, it comes from my heart. I feel like painting. My painting is spiritual. It’s my spirituality. And, you know, you sort of, you do you sort of give birth to it. It never becomes normal. It’s not like a paint by number, you know, ABC. I do it this. I do it this way, and it’s done. It’s always this process. But to me, a painting is finished when it connects with somebody enough where they’re like, I have to own that. I have to live with that. I have to bring that into my home that is like, and they’re paying a chunk of money too, you know, it’s like a, it’s an amazing compliment that your work can move somebody that, that they’ll buy it, you know, because they have to, they have to Have it. That that is rare. I think, probably too rare, you know, but look how amazing that is. It is, you know, you were sitting in front of a white canvas, and all of a sudden this, you create this thing that’s attached to your heart and soul, and then it connects to somebody else’s heart and soul, and they buy it. That’s when it’s finished. That’s when the process is complete. That’s what I think,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:28

yeah, I totally agree. It’s, I think that’s one of the beauties of being an artist, is, you know, that connection that you just mentioned. And often, sometimes it can happen with multiple people too, or, like multiple people might like, you know, one painting or react to it. And of course, only one, one of them can purchase it, unless you sell prints. But I think, I think that’s the nice part. The really beautiful part of being an artist is connecting with people, you know, through emotion, through color, through experience. Because in the end, you know, we’re all, we’re all trying to figure this stuff out, too,

Unknown: 1:18:05

you know, right? Yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:09

But then, if someone did want to go see your work, are you, do you have any upcoming shows exhibitions, or do you have any work in your gallery?

Stephanie Marzella: 1:18:19

Year round at Reinhard fine art. They mean they don’t have specific shows. They just exhibit their artists work. And at Ballards in Wyoming, Ballards fine art. And right now I’m in in a guest as a guest artist at a loom gallery. My website, I’m in the South. I do the southeastern wildlife Expo. And a lot of people come to Charleston for that in February, I just had a show at Reinhardt, a two person show at Ryan art in October. And what is it? September, wild women are doing a show at the Thunderbird foundation, so I’m excited about that. And we’ll, we’ll plan our paint out there, and we’ll all get together, you know, and it’s, we’re friends and colleagues, and it’s, it’s a really, that’s a really great group, newer group, great group, powerful women with a lot of spirit and a lot of tenacity, I think, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:25

yes, yes. I’ve had the privilege of interviewing quite a few of you, and you’re all very wonderful, unique, spunky,

Unknown: 1:19:34

spunky women. I love it. It’s very inspiring.

Stephanie Marzella: 1:19:37

It’s a group. It’s like we’re wild at art, yeah, wild in spirit.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:46

Yeah. And then, do you mind telling us what your website and social media are?

Stephanie Marzella: 1:19:50

My website is www, Stephanie marzella.com easy. My name and my Instagram is Stephanie marzella. Am I forgetting Facebook? I’m forgetting anything. I don’t have a YouTube channel or anything like that. I’m impressed by you do all that stuff, but I’m easy to contact. Just google my name and, you know, I have like articles on my website Connect, you know, connected to my career and upcoming events, and as soon as I finish a painting, it gets put on my website.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:29

So, very disciplined, like you said, Well, I will be including all of your links in the show notes so our listeners can go check your stuff out and hopefully weep from joy, because it is very beautiful work to look at. Thank you. It’s so ethereal and magical. I totally recommend it.

Stephanie Marzella: 1:20:53

Thank you. I hope that I like that. I do think it’s magical.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:59

It is. I love it, yeah? So thank you so much for being a guest on the show today.

Stephanie Marzella: 1:21:05

Thank you for having me, and it was really nice to meet you too. Yeah, yeah, you too. So I will be listening for your next podcast after this.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:15

Heck yeah. I hope so. All

Stephanie Marzella: 1:21:17

right, well, have a good night. Now. You’re in the you’re in the night time already, right? So have a good, relaxing evening. Thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:25

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

Eugene is a regular contributing writer to The BoldBrush Letter.

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True Speech Is Always an Echo of What Has Long Been Spoken

“Language is not a work of human beings: language speaks. Humans only speak insofar as they co-respond to language.” – Martin Heidegger

Language is not something we do; it’s something that comes out of us when we have been spoken to. As Psalm 116:10 says: “I believed, therefore I spoke.”

And Luke 6:45: “For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.”

The only proper use of language is when it arises as a response to an Encounter with the Word. It is Divine Being itself speaking to us. True Speech precedes and predates humanity – and creation itself.

We think language is a purely human phenomenon, but it’s not. Human language is but a shadow of the Word spoken day and night from before the foundation of the world.

As David says in Psalm 19:

“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech.”

Primordial Speech permeates all of creation. And it is poetic Speech – Poetry itself.

“True poetry is the language of Being, which has long been spoken to us and that we have never yet caught up with.” – Martin Heidegger (GA38A: 167)

The Greek word poiesis, used in the Greek translation of Genesis 1, literally means “making.” In the beginning, God made – He spoke the poem of the world into being. This essential, poetic Speech continues to pour forth day and night from every corner of creation, yet we have not “caught up” with it.

We catch up only when we become conscious of what is “already there.” Unless I have caught the Word being spoken from all eternity, it’s best to keep silent. Silence is the only mode of existence in which we can “hear and receive” the primordial Speech.

Divine Being discloses itself through Speech condensed into matter. Divine Being speaks through grass and water, sunrays and wind, through animals and stones. When Jesus says in Luke 19:40, “I tell you, if these were silent, the stones would cry out,” He means it both literally and metaphorically.

This essential Speech, this Divine poiesis, has “long been spoken to us.” Just as a little child does not begin to speak until they have been spoken to for a long, long time, so we too must remain silent until we have heard enough Speech.

Only then will we open our mouths and, together with the poets, utter the holy. These words will be words of power because they will be taught by the Spirit. They will be the fruit of what has “long been spoken to us.”

We do not seek to communicate or impart knowledge. We simply lean our ear toward what is already being spoken and allow that Speech to pour out.

Language is not something we are entitled to; we cannot use it at will. When words are spoken without first hearing the Speech, they do not make – they destroy. They are not wholesome. They are words of delusion and division rather than healing.

Words not born of the Spirit do not reveal – they obscure. They break and fragment; they do not make whole. The world is full of uninspired, unwholesome words that split and divide. These are words of unmaking – the noise of unspeaking. They do not come from the Source; they are prompted by a different spirit.

True speech always feels strangely familiar. The heart recognizes what has “long been spoken.” Every act of genuine speaking is an echo. Language is always a prayer before it becomes a proclamation.

“Man speaks only insofar as he responds to language by listening to its appeal.” – Martin Heidegger

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PS — Check out Eugene’s new book Fairy Tales for Grown-Ups: Rediscovering Myth and Meaning through Tolkien, Lewis, and Barfield.

Available on Amazon or his website.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Miriam Schulman, a New York–based artist, author of the book Artpreneur, and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. Miriam left a Wall Street career after 9/11 and has since built a long-term, sustainable art business while coaching other artists on marketing and mindset. She explains how sales training at a gym gave her the “aha” moment that sales skills are transferable and can be used to successfully sell art. A core theme of her book Artpreneur is choosing to believe you are an artist, claiming that identity early and confidently rather than waiting for external permission. Miriam identifies common mistakes artists make, especially underpricing their work and assuming “cheaper is easier to sell,” arguing instead that higher prices signal trust, quality, and a better collector experience. She strongly advocates for email marketing over social media, detailing why email vastly outperforms Instagram in engagement and how artists should collect addresses and email weekly in a personal, story‑driven way. Finally, she recommends LinkedIn and YouTube (used thoughtfully and collector‑focused) as better long‑term platforms than Instagram, and closes by urging artists to “keep marching forward,” taking consistent steps rather than freezing in fear or blaming external circumstances.

Get your free first chapter here!

schulmanart.com/believe/

Order Artpreneur here:

artpreneurbook.com

The Inspiration Place Podcast:

schulmanart.com/podcast/

Episodes mentioned:

• The Inspiration Place Episode 342: How She Sells Art on YouTube ft. Aramis Hamer

• The Inspiration Place Episode 357: The Artist’s Guide to Growing on Patreon ft. Aramis Hamer

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Transcript:

Miriam Schulman: 0:00

Okay, so the biggest mistake people make is they believe that cheaper is easier to sell. So if you’re if your fur baby needed surgery that cost $2,000 and you have some sort of cream or neighbor down the street or down the hall, depending whether you live in an apartment or like I do, or wherever, and they say, Oh no, I know a guy who can do that same surgery for you for 200 bucks? No, you’re not doing that. You don’t because it’s a, it’s It’s trust. Is this for real? So money is one way to signal to people that you’re for real.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:35

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Miriam Schulman, a New York based artist, author of the book, artpreneur, and host of the inspiration plays podcast. Miriam left a Wall Street career after 911 and has since built a long term sustainable art business while coaching other artists on marketing and mindset. She explains how sales training at a gym gave her the aha moment that sales skills are transferable and can be used to successfully sell art. A core theme of her book, artpreneur is choosing to believe you’re an artist, claiming that identity early and confidently, rather than waiting for external permission. Miriam identifies common mistakes artists make, especially underpricing their work and assuming cheaper is easier to sell, arguing instead that higher prices signal trust quality and a better collector experience. She strongly advocates for email marketing over social media, detailing why email vastly outperforms Instagram and engagement and how artists should collect addresses and email weekly in a personal story driven way. Finally, she recommends LinkedIn and YouTube used thoughtfully and collector focused as better long term platforms than Instagram, and closes by urging artists to keep marching forward, taking consistent steps rather than freezing in fear or blaming external circumstances. Welcome Miriam to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? I’m good. How are you? I’m good. I’m really excited to have you, because you have one of the coolest books that I’ve seen, I have yet to read it. I’m excited, though, to read it, because you teach basically what I think every artist who listens to this podcast wants to know, especially artists who already have a good amount of work that they want to try to sell and put out there. So I’m really excited to pick your brain, especially about your book, as I mentioned, entrepreneur, which our listeners can go and check out. We do have the links in the show notes at this point, so go check it out. But before we dive in even more into your really awesome advice and tips, do you mind telling us a bit more about who you are and what you do, sure.

Miriam Schulman: 3:03

So I’m Miriam Shulman. I am, like you said, author of our preneur, host of the inspiration plays podcast. And I haven’t always been an artist. So I have been an artist since 2000 which, Whoa, that was 26 years ago. But when I was younger, I wanted to be an artist, but I was told you couldn’t make a living that way.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:23

Did you hear the same thing? Yep, unfortunately, yeah.

Miriam Schulman: 3:28

So I believe them. So I took the practical route and I went to Wall Street. But after 911 happened, I knew I couldn’t go back to that world. And at first, I still didn’t believe that I can make a living that way. So I painted on the side, and I was working at a gym selling personal training packages. And during that sales training, that’s when I had my aha moment. I saw, Oh, these sales strategies can be used to sell anything, including art. So that was 26 years ago or so, and I’ve been making a sustainable living ever since. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:09

That is awesome. And I think it’s even cooler that, you know, you went the practical route and then decided, no, I can’t, I can’t handle this, which I think a lot of artists that have actually interviewed on the podcast have had a very similar epiphany, where suddenly there where suddenly they’re like, I can’t see myself. You know, living in this environment, when I have this inner creative being that really wants to come out. And I think the missing piece, of course, is the part that you mentioned, that I think a lot of people appreciate, is the money making part. Because, of course, you can’t, can’t eat, can’t eat your paint, unfortunately. So it is good that you, you know, realize, like, Aha, you know, putting these things together that really helps to make sales. Because I think a lot of artists are very shy about selling their work, or they feel like it’s somehow different from other parts. Products, which it can be, in a sense, but the strategies are basically similar, right? So that actually brings me to two questions. The first one being, when did you decide, okay, I’m going to follow the path of the artist, even before you know, you decided to take the practical route. Was it a moment in your childhood, what was it? Okay?

Miriam Schulman: 5:22

So when I felt that I was an artist was way back in the fourth grade, my fourth grade teacher, I was the new girl in school, and my fourth grade teacher made me the class artist. Now I don’t know if I demonstrate was demonstrating any kind of talent back then, because my job as class artist was to glue toothpicks onto the pumpkin that was the jack o lantern, and the teacher decided what that design was. So like, clearly, did not require any talent, but her saying that to me, I chose to believe it. I chose to take on that identity. Oh, I’m an artist. Okay, yes, I’m an artist. So that’s why, in my book, artpreneur, I start with the chapter choose to believe, because that’s really the first step, is being able to look in the mirror and say, This is what an artist looks like, and being able to tell the world that

Laura Arango Baier: 6:21

absolutely, yeah. I think you know what? That’s probably one of the hardest hurdles for some people, is them, you know, feeling like, oh, is it safe for me to label myself this? Am I actually an artist? And I myself, have also struggled with that as like, am I? But am I? And I think that, yeah, changing that mindset into Yes, this is what I am. And I can, you know, I mean, I can have a side job and still be an artist, right? Like, at the core, it is what you are, right?

Miriam Schulman: 6:50

It’s that same moment in Harry Potter when Hagrid says you’re a wizard, Harry so it’s like, oh, I’m a wizard.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:57

Okay. Oh, that’s a great comparison. I love that. Yeah, no, it’s for sure. That’s the first hurdle. And then, actually, I wanted to ask you also, because since you went through this, you know, these stages of like, okay, I’m side job figuring stuff out. When did you realize? Okay, I want to help other artists figure this out too.

Miriam Schulman: 7:22

Okay, so I started my coaching practice in 2019 so that was a good 19 years of being a sustainable artist. Because I know I get a lot of snark on social media when people see my ads for coaching, they’re like, Oh, another artist who couldn’t make a living and now is teaching No my friend. I’m 57 years old. I’ve been doing this a very long time, but even before I started coaching other artists, I was doing it kind of for free, meaning, not my art for free, but giving people advice for free. So I wanted to be in masterminds with other artists. I would create these mastermind groups, but I ended up being their free coach. So my first step was not actually to start a coaching program. The first thing I did was actually put together the podcast. So I was giving advice, still giving advice for free. But then people started to ask me, oh Miriam, please coach me. Please take my money. Please become an artist, business coach. So I was following what my intuition, what the Muses in the world, what the universe was telling me,

Laura Arango Baier: 8:34

that’s awesome. And yeah, there are a lot of naysayers out there. I feel like there’s this horrible thing that people say or like, Oh, those who can’t do teach, which I think makes absolutely no sense, because no, almost every single artist I’ve interviewed has taught workshops or has taught other students, or has taught, you know, in some sense, whether it’s business, whether it’s painting, portrait, etc, it’s no it’s another source of income. And it’s really sad that teaching kind of gets so devalued into a stage of like, oh, you’re not you’re not real. It’s like, no, actually, in order for you to be able to teach, you have to be the legitimate thing. Otherwise you can’t. And then people would notice, right? So yeah,

Miriam Schulman: 9:17

I mean, there are plenty of coaches sometimes I stumble upon who are giving really bad advice because they didn’t do the thing first. I was like, and so sometimes I’ll do a whole YouTube episode. I won’t say Johnny so and so, I’ll just say, Oh, I saw this video, and the advice is really bad. And let me just tell you how it really works.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:39

Yes, yeah. And I think that’s one of those interesting thing that’s that’s happened with the internet, which we will talk more about the internet in a bit, which is, there’s just so much information out there, and there are so many people who are doing the fake it till you make it type of thing, to the point where they’re even when they make it, they’re still faking it. They haven’t actually learned anything. And I think that’s yeah, that gives a bad rep to the people who do know, yeah, do want to help? Yeah, yes, but yeah, at least, at least we can vouch for a fact that you know you do have your book has incredible tips. It’s very inspiring from what I’ve seen, and of course, on your website, you do have the first chapter available for anyone who’s interested in reading, which is really cool. I wanted to ask you also, because obviously, everything that you’ve written in your book, and everything that you’ve taught it has to be based on your own experience, your own mistakes, or, you know, any past one where you’re like, Oh man, I wish I’d known this. Let me help people so that they don’t make that same mistake. What would you say is the most common mistake that a lot of artists make when they’re trying to make a living? Okay?

Miriam Schulman: 10:52

Yes, I am going to answer that, but I also want to make sure the listeners know how to get a free the free chapter of my book, so I know everything’s linked in the show notes, but if you’re driving Shulman Art com slash, believe you can get chapter one absolutely free. Okay, so the biggest mistake people make is they believe that cheaper is easier to sell. I believed it too, like when I first started out, when I was doing my portraits, I didn’t know what to charge. I looked around, what are other people charging and then I charge less because I wanted to be affordable and I thought I was just starting out. No, not a good idea. Think, if you think about it from the customer’s point of view, think about from yourself. Let’s just think about yourself. Are you going around looking for the cheapest vet for your puppy? Or kitten? No, no. If you’re, what do you have? Laura, do you have a pet? I do not so sad. Okay, well, dog, yeah, okay, so our listeners do though they have fur babies. So if you’re, if your fur baby needed surgery that cost $2,000 and you have some sort of cream or neighbor down the street or down the hall, depending whether you live in an apartment or, like I do, or wherever, and they said, Oh no, I know a guy who can do that same surgery for you for 200 bucks. No, you’re not doing that. You don’t, because it’s a, it’s It’s trust. Is this for real? So money is one way to signal to people that you’re for real. And I had this experience actually on the other side, because I do collect art, there was an artist who I follow I really like, and they had their art for sale during Black Friday, and they they said it was an original painting for$1,000 and it was big, and they had it on sale for 750 and I kept sending her emails. It was like, Is it a print? Is it an embellished print? I ended up buying it. But even after I got it, I was like, looking at it. Did she fool me? Is this really hand painted? So it’s not a good idea to undersell your services. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:08

And also, I think, I think it’s because there’s two things that get really confused there, right? We have this, this sort of thought of, like in the regular market, right? You would think, Oh, you have, like, this loaf of bread and this loaf of bread and, like, one’s a little bit cheaper. I’ll take that, but that’s, you know, obviously you have tons of options of bread, and

Miriam Schulman: 13:28

they’re all, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, that’s if you’re choosing between petridge farm and wonder bread. Okay, exactly. But if you have a loaf of bread from petridge Farm, petridge, how do you say it? I have audiological processing, so whatever Wonder Bread, Wonder Bread, and it’s whatever, it’s $3 for the Wonder Bread. But then there’s a bakery where it’s freshly baked and it’s $12 yes, it’s more expensive, but what’s going to taste better? What are you going to slice up and serve to you know, when you meet whatever, when you have your boyfriend’s parents over for the first time, you know, like there’s, are you going to serve them wonder bread? Or are you going to serve them something from a fake or eight or if you’re bringing a loaf of bread over to somebody’s house because you’re a guest, are you going to bring a loaf of Wonder Bread? Never, never. No, you will. You will spend $12 or$20 I don’t know what the loaf of bread costs. I forget. I don’t like pay attention, because I want the loaf of bread from the bakery.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:33

Yes, yeah, exactly. I mean, you’re paying for the quality, and not just the quality that’s for. Also, like, okay, that Baker had to study that.

Miriam Schulman: 14:42

It’s not even that. It’s it’s not, it’s not even that. See, that’s thinking of somebody who’s a seller. Oh, you’re paying for their education. No, as a consumer, I don’t care how long the baker took to learn his craft. I care about what my mother in law is going to think, or the people I’m bringing the. For bread over I’m thinking about the experience

Laura Arango Baier: 15:03

that makes sense. That makes sense, yeah, I mean, I’m thinking also from the perspective of the artist, right? Because and this kind of ties back into the imposter feeling of like, oh, but am I an artist? Can I sell my work? It feels icky, right? It feels wrong to sell my work for so and it’s like, yeah, but you have years of experience, you have all of these amazing paintings that you can make that you know someone out there is totally gonna love, right?

Miriam Schulman: 15:33

Yeah, I get that. There’s that feeling. And you know what? You don’t have to sell your work. You don’t have to. You can be a hobby artist. Totally fine. It’s totally out. But if you want to make a living from your art, you got to get over that feeling. So I was coaching an artist. I’m going to shout her out, Megan Mayberry, she does these amazing headdresses. So she’s in Galveston, Texas, which is like, it’s like New Orleans as far as Mardi Gras and headdresses go. And when she first started coaching with me. She was telling me how she set up a booth, and she was letting people try on the their headdresses. I was like, Well, were you selling it? Were there any price that? No. And I said to her, Listen, every time you show up, there needs to be a shopping opportunity. And I was very hard on her, and she was very upset. But now fast forward, six months later, she’d made $30,000 in six months from her headdresses, but she said that was one of the most important lessons, was that everything is a shopping opportunity, and she has very, very creative ways of making it not feel icky to her or her customers, to make it feel like an experience. So for example, this January, she had a first cake night. So that first slice night, which is something I’m not as familiar with, Mardi Gras and those traditions. I don’t know if you are Laura, but this is like a thing, like the first cake, King’s cake, or something like that. There’s like a little baby in the cake. Is that it okay? Yeah, I have no idea so, but she invited bakers. It did a whole she did this whole thing, and it was just like, and she made 1000s of dollars with her headdresses in a week. But she made this experience because high end buyers want that experience. So it’s the experience, not the transaction, that’s going to matter. So yes, you do have to feel uncomfortable, but your success is on the other side of that discomfort. Totally.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:34

Yes, and that is a good point, because one of the comparisons that I’ve also heard is, you know, art comparing artists to luxury brands, because luxury brands also, they provide experience, right? Some, some really high end stores, you have to make an appointment to even be able to go in and look at their their purses or their shoes, and then they have, like, the really special catalog that only specific collectors get to see and they get to see it before everyone else, like, they have a bit of a tier system that I think a lot of artists don’t consider because, you know, we’re so used to seeing like, very normal like online shopping, or shop now, or like sale and all of these things that we don’t realize that. Yeah, I mean, if, if you want to sell to the people who really care about your work and who see it for what it’s worth, you also have to see your own work in the same vein, right? You have to see its own worth as well. Yeah, yes. And speaking of the internet, I think that’s been one of the biggest things for artists, especially in the last 26 years since, of course, before that, it was mostly galleries. Even in the early 2000s It was mostly galleries that were the quote, unquote gatekeepers, or like the ones who really call the shots. But now, with internet marketing, the internet internet you can sell through your website, it’s become a bit of a email marketing sort of situation that is what seems to help artists all the most, at least from what I’ve heard from multiple guests that I’ve had. Do you mind telling us a bit more about what are some of the best ways for artists to start collecting emails or start building a list. Maybe you know they’re starting from zero.

Miriam Schulman: 19:25

Yeah, okay, the number one way it sounds. It’s gonna sound so boring, but this is the number one way. Okay, I’m gonna model it for you. Hey, Laura, I have a show coming up. Would you like me to send you an invitation? Yeah, sure. Okay. What’s your email address? That’s it. That’s it. That’s, that’s how it works, okay? Or the other way is, you don’t have a show coming up, and Laura says to me, Miriam, where can you see, where can I see your art? That’s, that’s a very common question art as well. Get, they’ll either get, where can I see your art, what’s your gallery? And a lot of artists freeze thinking they’re not legit. They don’t have a gallery. That’s not true. That’s not where that that question is coming from, by the way, they just want to know how to follow up with you. Okay, where can I see your art, what’s your gallery? Or the third one is, do you have a card? They don’t actually want a card. By the way, they don’t want a card. So all three of those questions are an excuse for you to say, I would love to make sure you’re invited to my next show. That doesn’t mean you have a show on the calendar. You will someday, and then you get their email address. That’s how it works. That’s it. That’s the best way, really. I mean, there’s other ways too, but that’s, that’s the easiest and the best way?

Laura Arango Baier: 20:46

Yes, yeah. And I’ve also heard that it also helps to do it in person, you know, like, collect family, friends, you know, people who are closest to and then from there to start branching out. If you go to a show, if you go to, like, an opening of some sort, which Funny enough, you know, for a career that’s actually it seems like a very solitary one being an artist, since you’re in your studio, it’s actually very, very, very much dependent on networking and on, you know, talking to people, which is amazing.

Miriam Schulman: 21:16

Yes, however, this is a yes. And since many artists are introverts, and they get very nervous when they hear that these are usually one on one conversations which introverts thrive in. This is not you getting up on a stage. This is not public speaking. They are always one to one interactions. So if we talk about building our audience, there are three ways, and only three ways to build your audience, and the first one you hit upon Laura, which is your universe? So your your universe starts with friends, family, co workers, people you went to high school with, anyone you come into contact with, in person or online. That’s your universe, okay. The second way are other people’s universes. That’s what I’m doing right now. Today. I’m on the on the on the podcast, talking to Laura’s audience. So that is another way it’s so other people’s and by that, I’m not talking about paid advertising, advertising. I’m talking about free publicity. And a lot of my artists, especially ones who live in places where there’s not a lot of people. Like, I have an art client, Elizabeth mordensky, who was living in Montana. She’s like, Well, how do I do this? I was like, well, you get get some publicity. She got a article in art collector magazine. It led to $29,000 in repeat art sales, and lots of artists, lots of examples, over and over again, getting it through publicity. And then the third way is paid advertising, but that is for fine artists, not as effective actually, as the first two methods, which is good news. So it’s not something that you have to do.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:03

Yeah, that’s very good news, because oftentimes those paid advertisements can be so expensive, it’s so unreachable for a lot of people. And it’s like you said, it’s not even as effectively. It doesn’t really seem to work. Like I’ve seen people who, for example, they’ll advertise on like Facebook or Instagram, and it’s, it’s so, like, I would say maybe, like, one or 2% actually, is the conversion that I’ve noticed, at least from, you know, what friends have told me in terms of selling paintings, it’s really hard, because I think a lot of people are also becoming very disenchanted with The targeted ads that keep popping up on social media. Like, I think everyone’s really tired of that they’re looking really for like, that authenticity of like, oh, this is a human being who isn’t outwardly trying to sell me things. You know.

Miriam Schulman: 23:53

Well, the thing is, is that if you’re putting artwork in front of people, what collectors want is meaning not medium, and they want the connection to the human who has made the art. So that has to come first, and that’s why the advertising is so difficult, because it’s very hard for you to get to know them through an advertisement

Laura Arango Baier: 24:22

at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH. Show.com The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah, it feels like a mask and like, Yep, it immediately scares people away. For sure they can.

Miriam Schulman: 26:11

I just want to put a caveat in there, because a lot of people have found me for my business coaching. And before I did business coaching, I did online art classes, they have found me through through the ads. But that was never taking someone from an ad to a purchase. It was usually an ad to a free experience, kind of like how a bakery gives give you a little piece of of of like cookie at the counter, and then maybe you’ll buy the cookies, so giving them a free taste of that before they get the whole thing. So it’s really that relationship piece still has to come in the middle before you make the sale.

Laura Arango Baier: 26:55

Yeah, that’s a really good point. I think that also works really well with, you know, marketing on, not directly marketing, but just putting stuff on YouTube, or teaching free tips, or teaching, you know, or just, oh, if you like, sign up here. You get a free you get a postcard of one of my paintings, you know. Or if you really want to go old school, but it is, it’s true because it it shows more like, oh, like, I don’t want anything from you directly. Just look at my stuff, and then from there, it feels like a lot easier if someone does want the stuff to go for it, yeah. So if someone already has like, a good number of, like, email signups, right, what would you say is the next best thing to do with that list?

Miriam Schulman: 27:45

Okay, so here’s the problem with a lot of artists, either they don’t have an email list, which we’ve kind of talked about, we didn’t really talk about that actually, why you need an email list rather than social media? We can’t Okay, so when I wrote artpreneur, I was talking mostly about email, and my editor said, Oh, she’s in her 50s. I guess she’s old fashioned and doesn’t believe social media. I was like, Oh no, my friend, I’m way ahead of you. People who still think social media works are the ones who are a little bit behind. So when I wrote my that, when I wrote the book, when the editor gave me that the average engagement rate on Instagram was 1% which is still low, but not as low as it is now. So 1% is one out of 100 or 10 people out of 1000 by the time I went to edit that chapter to make a bigger case for why social media is not as effective as email, it had dropped to 0.6% and now that we’re in 2026 the average is 0.36% and It’s not 0.36% for artists, it’s 2% for colleges and sports teams, the average for everybody is point three. 6% for most artists, it’s more like point one or point two. So that’s one person out of 1000 people. What is an engagement that means they’re either DMing, you liking or commenting, and yes, somebody commenting saying, is this available as an NFT, which is a scam, also counts as that very low engagement rate. So now that we’ve discussed about that, you compare that to email. Email has a 24% open rate, so you would need 6000 followers on Instagram to get the same engagement as only 100 people on an email list. Let that sink in, 6000 100 that’s why it’s so much easier to build a business using email marketing than social media.

Laura Arango Baier: 29:58

Yeah. Yeah, not. It makes perfect sense, I think, because it takes, it’s so much more trouble, quote, unquote trouble, right? It takes more steps to sign up for someone’s newsletter or sign up for their blog or, you know, email updates, because you have to actually have interest. You have to go on their website. You have to type in, you know, your email. In some cases, you get an email back saying, Hey, you have to confirm that you’re signing up for this. And those are all these extra steps that really make you know this person is dedicated to this, instead of just looky Lou, who’s just scrolling, or even, you know, mindlessly, just not even paying attention to what they’re looking at.

Miriam Schulman: 30:39

Okay, so let me answer your question once you have so we said, so the biggest mistake I say that people, they either don’t have an email list, but the next biggest problem is they have an email list, but they’re afraid to use it. Those are the artists who think that email is bothering people. So they said, Well, I only send four emails a year or once a month, which is better, but you don’t treat Instagram that way. You would never only post four times a year on Instagram. So why are you? Why are you treating email that way? The way I like to help artists see how important it is, is someone who’s your email subscriber, is like your friend. Could you imagine if, or like a boyfriend or girlfriend, if, if a guy was interested in you and said, What? What’s your your phone number, and you gave him your phone number and he took three months to call you? Well, that’s what you’re doing when somebody gives you the email address and it takes you three months before you send an email. That’s not a nice way to treat somebody.

Laura Arango Baier: 31:50

That’s an interesting perspective on that, yeah. I mean, they care enough to like want to know more, right? So it’s good to nurture that,

Miriam Schulman: 31:59

and you want to show them that you do what you say you’re going to do. That’s the first step of trust. We talked about trusting people online. We’re in a trust recession. You got to build that trust. Part of that trust is starts with doing what you say you’re going to do.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:15

Yes, yeah, huh? I’m like, mentally jotting down, like, Okay, I know what I’m going to do next, so that’s awesome. So now that we’re actually, since you mentioned timing, what would you say is probably more or less a really good average for, like, sending out newsletters, or like,

Miriam Schulman: 32:37

every single week, and don’t call it a newsletter. Okay, people don’t even want newsletters. I’ve heard some people recently say, oh, newsletters are back. No, they’re not. Nobody wants a newsletter. Write an email as if you’re writing to a friend. Write an email the same way you would be writing an Instagram post when you do a newsletter. That’s very early, 2000s you know, of all the different sections all and what it is is that you’re not sending a lot of emails, so you’re trying to get everything in to that one email. But people, again, they’re only opening 25% of your emails. So even if you did send an email four times a month, every single week, maybe they’re only opening one because it’s 25% okay, but don’t put so much pressure on yourself that everything has to be in that one email. And let’s talk about one more thing, about why I’m such a big believer in email. So when you post something on Instagram, we talked about the engagement rate. The algorithm decides if somebody is going to see it an email, the person who you’re sending to, they decide if they’re going to open the email or not. So you have some control over that. Did you write a good subject line? Do you write good emails? So if you write good subject lines, that makes them want to open it not. Laura Studio News, I hope that’s not you. Laura, no, I know it’s I know it’s some listeners, though I’m so sorry listener, I am so mean, and it’s my job to be mean to you and tell you what’s real. If you’re sending every month, February news, March news, nobody wants to open that. If it’s if it’s Jack’s Studio News is your subject line every single time, nobody’s opening it. And once people stop opening it, what’s going to happen to that email? It’s not going to land in their inbox anymore.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:42

It’s gonna go to spam or they unsubscribe. It

Miriam Schulman: 34:46

actually probably will go to spam because that like Gmail will say, Oh, they never, you know. Miriam is never opening this. And it starts you have, sometimes things start showing up in a spam folder instead of your inbox, even things you want to get that’s something.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:00

Happens, yeah, yeah. And it’s sad, because it’s like, Oh, I do care about this. I just haven’t had time to read it, or haven’t, like, opened them in a while, right? Life? Yeah, interesting, yeah. Um, I mean, weekly, that’s pretty intense. But I love, I love the tip of, like, you know, writing it as if you’re writing to a friend and not like, I think a lot of artists are very much like how you said, like, early, 2000s geared for like newsletter. This is what’s going on in my life. This is what happened. These are the awards I got.

Miriam Schulman: 35:30

And, yeah, no, no, you don’t want that. Nobody wants that. I don’t

Laura Arango Baier: 35:32

think they care. Yeah, I’ve actually had a lot more replies and hits on like blog posts that I just, like, announced and like, in an email, like, oh, new blog posts, and then it just shows, like, part of it, and then they can read the rest on my website. And I think that’s that’s done much better since it is a much more honest, like direct like, Oh, this is this, is this, and these are my thoughts on this. Yeah, that’s really cool. And then, since we’re also touching a little bit on social media, because it’s become, gosh, I miss the old Instagram, probably as much as all the artists from like 2016 to 2020 do. Since we know that Instagram is, you know, kind of going downhill and you can, you can feel free to explain a little bit more about you know why you think that is? What are some of the other platforms that you would recommend for artists to pursue instead of our old friend Instagram?

Miriam Schulman: 36:32

Yeah, it’s not that Instagram is being mean to us. It’s just it’s not possible for Instagram to show us everything that we’re following. You know, I know I have, I’m following like 800 accounts. There’s, there’s no way I could keep up with that. That would be a full time job. So it’s not just big bad, Instagram’s fault. I think the two best platforms to be on right now are LinkedIn in YouTube with giving an edge to LinkedIn. For artists, especially the only place that YouTube is better for artists, if you art teaching, it’s hard for artists not to lapse into art speak on YouTube and turn it into a tutorial. And that’s not going to drive art collectors to you, so you have to be very careful and intentional about the kind of content you post on LinkedIn. People have jobs, and I do know a lot of artists who are doing very well there. So one of the case studies to talk about is Casey Lynn Hancock. Have you heard of her? So she sells paintings between 35,000 and 100,000 Yes, that’s each on LinkedIn. It takes her a few months before she sells it, but that’s worth it. Just have to sell two of those a year. Yeah?

Laura Arango Baier: 38:01

So, because it is so I’ve of course, used LinkedIn in the past, and probably not as much as someone who has a regular corporate job, but in terms of, like using it as an artist, what’s like, an example of a post that someone can make would be treated like Facebook or Instagram

Miriam Schulman: 38:20

in that sense, yes, but okay, so Instagram tends to be a little bit more confessional. I wouldn’t be as confessional on LinkedIn as maybe Instagram is, but much of the content you’ve posted in the past on those other platforms are it’s exactly the same thing they like, videos, pictures of your art in progress, your values, pictures of you working your studio pet, all those things, of course, you don’t have a studio pet, maybe your studio goldfish, I don’t know. Yes, yes, yes. All those things, behind the scenes content, but you want to make it behind the scenes content that’s interesting to collectors, not other artists, so not, Oh, I couldn’t decide whether to use Payne’s gray or whatever, and this is how I saved my painting. That’s something artists care about. Behind the scenes content for collectors, it’s a different flavor so they want. It’s like the difference between knowing how the sausages are made, that’s what artists care about, versus what’s the speech that the waiter gives when he’s telling you the specials. That’s like what a collector wants. It’s like the magic.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:43

Yes, it’s like what you said earlier, like the experience attached to the painting, or the creation of whatever it may be, versus, yeah, no, I totally get that. And that’s so funny, because it is true. Whenever I look at, you know, my followers, for example, on Instagram, I would. Probably estimate that 80% are other artists, which isn’t a bad thing, of course, because sometimes artists like to swap, right? Like, oh, I’ll take this piece, you take that piece and like, you know, it’s a trade, trade, trade off. But obviously it’s a million times better when it’s a collector actually buying. Well, swapping doesn’t pay the mortgage. No, it does not, unfortunately. But, yeah, that’s a really good point. That’s a really good point. Trying to see it from the perspective of the collector is definitely important. Hey, that’s really cool. And so you mentioned something about also about YouTube, like, if someone did want to pursue YouTube because people, you know, now, they’re getting tired of short form content. YouTube is becoming much bigger because it’s long form. People actually seek it out, kind of like how, you know, newsletters are also some emails are also some way that people like to seek artists out, or seek someone else. Yeah, what? Like, how can an artist make it work? Because you said, like, teaching, but like, what’s the difference between, like, you know, the type of teaching that you mentioned, where it’s, like, just tutorial, versus, you know, the other type?

Miriam Schulman: 41:11

Yeah, so I have a course I teach the audience building workshop, and in it, I talk about the two case studies. I talk about Casey Lynn Hancock with LinkedIn, I break down her strategy and the other artists I talk about is a YouTube strategy. It took me a while to find an artist on YouTube who was using it not for to sell art classes, not to sell artists business coaching, but only for their art. So the artist to check out is ao Hamer. She actually has two YouTube channels. One is a little more confessional, and the other one is a little more collector focused. So you can check out what she’s doing and see if you can reverse engineering and engineer it. I mean, I break it down in the class, but like to give it justice to what she’s doing. It’s hard for me to do that, and if, like, the time we have here,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:07

yes, awesome. Yeah. Well, that’s perfect, because it is. I have obviously, like, looked at other artists like YouTube’s, and it’s always a little bit like, oh, you only have, like, they only make, like, maybe a little bit of side income from YouTube. And YouTube, of course, can be lucrative. Okay, use it, right?

Miriam Schulman: 42:25

Let’s break that down. Okay, so one thing that, and I also have some podcasts, which no one has to pay for, that you can link to in the show notes, where I interviewed ao hammer about her YouTube strategies. And we also we did two of them because we talked about her Patreon strategy, just a separate one. So most of her income is not from the YouTube ads. She does make some she also makes some money from Patreon, but the biggest driver for her is because that platform allows her to connect with her collectors on that level where they feel like they know her, and that makes them want to buy her art. It also has led to brand partnerships. So you can check out those two videos, video slash podcasts.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:18

Yeah, yeah. I will definitely link those and I will listen to them, because I think that’s, you know, being an artist today. Think it’s very much you wear all these hats. You know, you’re like the one man band, or one woman band type of situation where you have to do all the things. And, of course, passive income and, like, getting really good leads to sales, I think are so, so so valuable. Because if you have all your eggs in one basket, like, if an artist only works with a gallery and they’ve never, like, done their own marketing, and that gallery goes bust, you’re kind of starting from scratch, right? Whereas, if you know you have a little bit going on in different platforms, and you make sure that you’re organized about it, you’re taking care of it, if a gallery that you’re working with goes bust, you’re not necessarily as like scrambling for, oh no, how am I going to pay, you know, my bills this month, you know. And then I wanted to ask you also, in your experience, right? Obviously, you know, you have some really great insights, you know, in your podcast episodes about some of the strategies that you can employ. But what would you say are some of the like, say for YouTube, like, what’s like the best strategy for someone to, like, get a collector through there or LinkedIn?

Miriam Schulman: 44:38

Okay, so, like I said, it’s a slow burn on LinkedIn. It takes Casey months. But this is no different than what I’ve always experienced in my 25 years of being an artist. It can take up to six months between when somebody hands me their email address at a fair and then. Or they purchase off of an email, and that’s with me sending emails every single week, so it can take that long to build that relationship. But the point of the email, it’s not to get an email from every person every single time. It’s to remind them that you exist, so that when they’re ready, you’re there and you’re in front of them. Think about the things that you buy off of email. I don’t know about you, but I I’ve been very guilty of doing a lot of shopping lately. It’s just too easy. It was the holidays too. It was like, it’s way too easy, but half the time it’s because I get an email. Oh, you like press on nails? Did you look at the wicked press on nails? Well, no, I didn’t, but now I will. Oh, it’s January. Do you see these white frosted press on nails? No, but let me add that to my cart. Oh, and here’s something else you might like. So it’s because they sent an email that reminds me. But then there’s other things I buy less frequently, and it just reminds me that they exist, so that when I’m ready to buy XYZ thing, a Kate Spade handbag, whatever it is, oh, okay, that’s what I’m going to go

Laura Arango Baier: 46:14

to Yes, yeah. And you actually just reminded me because another platform that I think is very underrated, and I don’t know if you’ve heard too like much about it, and I actually didn’t even send it in my notes, but it just came to mind, is Pinterest? Have you heard much at all about Pinterest? And okay, yeah.

Miriam Schulman: 46:31

So here’s the thing about Pinterest. Pinterest is like a database. It’s SEO search, so it helps Google find you. So that’s the reason for pinning on Pinterest. It’s not for the end user who is looking like that’s how it used to be. You know, people looking for recipes or people looking for ideas. It’s more of the search helping the search engines find you. And that’s why YouTube is so good, is because Google owns YouTube,

Laura Arango Baier: 47:01

exactly, yes. Okay, that’s, yeah, that’s interesting. That’s really cool. But then, in that case, do you think artists should, like, totally abandon Instagram, or is it

Miriam Schulman: 47:13

I didn’t say that? Oh no. That’s

Laura Arango Baier: 47:15

actually a question that I’m having because I’m at, I’m close. It’s, it can be such a,

Miriam Schulman: 47:20

okay, this is what you should this is what you should abandon posting regularly. What you want to do is have nine pillar posts, nine posts that are pinned to the top, so that when somebody lands on you, because they’re they see your art in a gallery, they hear about you, and they check you out that they can see those nine posts at the top of your feed that in each one has a purpose of what it’s going to do, and you can refresh those nine pillar posts periodically, but yeah, move away from being the content machine for Mark Zuckerberg. Not good for you. Yes, and that’s people had art careers long before Instagram came along,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:02

yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s exactly what I was, you know, wondering, because it has become, and I’ve, I have so many great friends and so many awesome friends who are content creators, quote, unquote, or who are artists, and they’re all experiencing the same exact burnout, which is why I say, like, Oh man, I’m so close to just closing Instagram and, like, never opening it again. But at the same time, it is a place where I DM my friends, and it’s still the place where, like, I connect with oh so and so was doing this last weekend, and that’s so cool, you know, like, it’s still a bit of that personal sense. But at the same time, it just feels like, oh, so

Miriam Schulman: 48:42

put the same energy that you used to put into Instagram, into sending an email every week, and you’ll be more successful.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:51

That’s good to know. That’s good to know. I think that takes so much pressure off. I think for our listeners, anyone out there who is, you know, panicking about regular posting, or posting multiple times a day, which is something else that I keep hearing, and it just, it sounds like torture.

Miriam Schulman: 49:06

Yeah, I just want to say something else about that. I’m not just speaking from my experience. So since I’ve been coaching other artists, I can tell you about the other artists, what the experience I’ve had. One of my clients is Lynn Samus, and the year before she came to work with me, 2023 she had made $13,400 from sales of her art through galleries. In 2024 the year she was working with me, she made over $90,000 from her art. But here’s the reason I’m bringing her up, her most successful month was August of 24 she made over $20,000 that month, and that was the same month that her Instagram account got hacked. So her success did not depend on Instagram. I have lots of stories just like that, so not necessarily. They got half the month their most successful month, but basically how email marketing made a huge difference for them. I’ve gotten many artists over that six figure mark, and it’s not about becoming a better real creator, or creating a carousel or creating stories that’s exhausting.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:17

Yeah, yeah. Because again, like, it’s what I said, being a one person band, being video editor, recorder, music picker, because, oh no, it’s copyrighted. I can’t use that song, right? There’s so much that goes into just creating the content that you know, like 80% of the hard work, which is making the painting, becomes, suddenly becomes, like, the 20% of importance of the whole thing, which really sucks, because making the painting itself is the hard part for a lot of artists. So to add on top of that, just like all of the Toots and whistles and all these things are like, Oh, I gotta record, and I gotta do this, and I gotta it’s exhausting, so it’s good to know that you don’t have don’t have to, you don’t have to do that. Can go nice and slow and build a list over time of people who actually care instead of trying to scream into the void of Instagram, as I like to say, awesome. Yeah. Well, this, this has been a really productive not just for me, hopefully for our listeners too. Conversation. Do you have any final advice for someone who wants to make a living as an artist?

Miriam Schulman: 51:30

Yeah, so I want to end our conversation today with the same way I ended my book artpreneur, and that is, keep marching forward. There’s gonna be many times where you think you’re doing all the things and you’re still not getting the results you want. But if you keep putting one foot in front of the other and not blaming your boots, what do I mean by that? Don’t blame the circumstances. It’s not the economy. It’s not keep keep marching, put one foot in the front of the other if you’re going in the wrong direction, the only way you’ll know is if you keep on walking, and then you can always turn around and go in a different direction. But if you’re just standing there spinning, you’re not going to get anywhere. So keep marching forward.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:09

Oh, I love that. Yeah, it’s very easy to get paralyzed with the fear of all the possibilities, especially, you know, when you’re an entrepreneur, an entrepreneur, you see all the possibilities, and then suddenly you’re like, oh no. Like, oh no, like, I don’t know which way is the quote, unquote right way to go. It’s like analysis paralysis, but yeah, just picking one thing going forward and then seeing how it works, I think that’s definitely takes a huge load off for a lot of people, including me. Oh man. And then where can people go check out your artwork and your services and your awesome book?

Miriam Schulman: 52:45

All right, well, if you like what you heard today, there’s more of that at the Inspiration Place, both on podcast and YouTube form. I’d love to give you a free chapter of the book. Shulman Art com, slash believe if you do buy the book, though, we have a whole bonus package for you, so you can check that out. Artpreneur book.com, awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:09

Well, thank you so much, Miriam for all of these awesome tips. I was taking down a good amount of notes because I’m also ready to just focus on the things that actually work, and I hope our listeners will too. So thank you, all right.

Miriam Schulman: 53:24

Well, thanks for having me today, Laura, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:27

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.