Creatively,

Clint Watson
BoldBrush Founder & Creativity Fanatic

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Olya Konell 00:00

Welcome to BoldBrush LIVE. Thank you everybody for joining us. We have a very special guest today. We have Aaron, am I pronouncing that right? Yeah, yeah, that's correct, second guessing myself. And we have Angela Augusto, who is our Artist Relations Director. And today we're going to be covering your answers to your questions regarding art, creativity and marketing, and then kind of throwing in some of our own thoughts along the way. One of the things that we try to do with these webinars is connect you with artists that are in a different place in their journey. And these are our BoldBrush signature artists. They've accomplished a certain level of success, and the best way to learn is from other people that have done it. A marketing guru or a business guru could talk on a podium all day long, but it's not unless they've actually done the thing that you're trying to do. It's not going to make as much sense. And the beautiful thing of how how to do things. There's many different ways you know. So what works for one person may not work for another, and so by bringing on our get by bringing on our guests, and focusing these conversations on what worked for them, is going to give you some like first hand insight, and allow you to pick and glean from them and apply those things, maybe to your business or to your life. So really quickly, a little bit about BoldBrush and what we do. So if you go to boldbrush.com we are a company, and our goal is to inspire artists, to inspire the world. We do that by providing free and paid resources for artists. So the free resources are our podcast. We have the boldrush Letter newsletter that you can subscribe as free or paid. We also do these webinars every month. We have the BoldBrush art contest where you can enter your work. You don't have to be a customer of ours or anything like that. Anybody can do that. And as far as our paid products, we are a tech company, so we we do websites and various kind of tech tools. So Faso are websites that Clint has built from the ground up, and you can go to faso.com to learn more. They're very plug and play, easy to use. You can launch your site within a couple hours and have everything working, and we have some of the best support to help artists do that. It's for artists that really don't want to spend too much time updating their website. We also offer artful Squarespace, so if we've partnered with Squarespace, so if you want more control over your site, you want to spend some more time building things out. We do have that as well, and you can, you know, you can email us or ask us about that. It is very new. So you're not going to see too much stuff on our main sites, because we're in the process of adding all of that in. But that is about us and what we do. Welcome, sir. How are you? I'm great. Thanks for having me. Very welcome. I'm glad you could join us. We had a little bit of a chat before we got started. And something I like to do at the very beginning is forgot to mention this, the format for this webinar is going to be different. So for those of you that have been attending, it's usually me preparing the questions, which I have a couple, and I'll get us going. But I what I really want is I want you to ask us your questions. So in zoom there is a Q and A button. You can click that and type your question in. You can also put it in the chat, but it might get lost. So we prefer the Q and A option. And some of you have submitted your questions in advance, so I'll kind of moderate and call them out, keep them appropriate, of course, on the top of it on the topics of art, creativity and marketing. So anyway, before we dive into that, tell us, Aaron a little bit about you and what you do

Aaron Schuerr 03:59

you want, like the quick, yeah, dirty bio, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Try to, try to keep it quick. I actually knew I wanted to be an artist. There was a day when I was eight years old. There was a woman who lived down the street who's designing my art elementary school mascot the east, few wild cats, and for some reason she was at my house. I still don't really know why. Maybe it's her house was cluttered with marijuana plants. She was, they were, they were, you know, they were the hippie family down the down the way. Anyway, I had never seen someone draw representationally? So she had a bunch of library books of Wildcats, and I've watched her for a while, and I was mesmerized, and I snuck off with one of the books, pencil and some paper. I don't think I asked her. I think was too embarrassed to ask. Snuck away. Did a drawing of a mountain lion on a cliff from one of the library books and and it was, you know, it was a great surprise, and it fulfilled everything an eight year old wants. It was interesting past the time, and it got me attention. So I thought, well, that's, that's it. That's what I want to be. And, you know, there's a few probably diversions along the way, but it's pretty straight shot from that to going to art school, started at the Art Institute in Chicago, was doing more abstract work, even a little performance art, trying to be a good I mean, I think it was pretty enamored with the daddists and early 20th century modernism at the time, and then I went to Scotland. Was supposed to be an exchange program. I ended up transferring. Spent two years in in Scotland, and the start of my last year, some friends invited me out to the beach over by St Andrews, and just to do some sketching, I brought a drawing board, some charcoal and and I did a charcoal drawing of the headlines of St Andrews, just medieval town overlooking the North Sea. And it was like meeting myself for the first time like this. This was me, and I felt this pure joy that I had never felt in the same way. And so my final year the art schools there, you're supposed to be working toward a degree show. The entire degree is ranked on the one show that you do. There's no GPA, no, you know, credits. You just have a show at the end. And instead of doing these big, you know, kind of some abstract paintings that I had started on. I was going out doing charcoal drawings of landscapes, and, you know, with no idea, like there was no plein air movement, or, you know, there was no there's no way to find out. There was no one else was doing it. But I kept at it. I didn't get a very good degree mark because they rank your your degree stuff, but I sold almost all the paintings that I'd done. I had met during that college time. I met a woman from Montana, a woman from Montana. I probably couldn't find Montana on a map at the time, I think, and so when I came back to the States, I pretty quickly went west to Montana. People thought I was crazy, you know, I was suburbs of Chicago. And, like, if you want to be an artist, you go to Chicago or New York or, you know, big city. Like, yeah, I'm gonna go to Montana and I'm gonna be an artist. I have no idea what that looks like. And I get out to Montana and realize there are, oh, there's so many artists and writers and filmmakers and musicians all hiding out

Olya Konell 07:50

here. Yeah, they know what's up. And

Aaron Schuerr 07:53

so, you know, it's like, I, you know, when I went to art school, to the Art Institute, I had never met a working artist, so at the time, I was, had to be really defensive about my choice to go to art school, because it was all this, you know, what are you going to do about that? I mean, sorry, what are you going to do with that? I don't know. I'm linking. I have no idea how this works, right? But I knew that's, you know, that's what I always just looked at as like, but this is what I'm most invested in. This is what I'm best at, yeah, you know. So they would say, like, get your graphics degree, get your illustration degree. Get my favorite was, get your teaching certificates. You have something to fall back on. I thought, Well, I had a, I had an arts, art teacher who fell back on it. And it was, he was not a very good teacher. You want to be that person, yeah? And, and it's, you know, so I just stuck with what I felt like was the best thing I had to offer. And, you know, I waited tables for a decade. I taught little kids to cross country ski. I was a youth director. I, you know, I did all sorts of part time jobs. Sometimes I had multiple part time jobs. I always worked as little as possible to keep things going. And then it's about 10 years after art school, I went full time by mistake. So this is, you know, we're talking art marketing. I'm, like all the I'm the accidental art marketer. I basically, I was my last job. I was the youth director, and the program was growing, and I was at this crossroads where I was going to have to ask for more hours in order to make things work. But I realized that when I was preparing doing this stuff for the youth director position, I was thinking about the paintings I wanted to finish, and then when I was doing the paintings, I was like, Oh, I really need to make those phone calls. I really need to plan this thing. And I thought, You know what? I'm going to get in trouble. Because if you're not all in on something like working with youth, then. You're going to miss something. And so I, I put in my, you know, my notice, and I thought, well, I'll just get another job. And I'd always had something to jump to if I quit a job. And I, you know, there was, and I remember walking up to couple times walking up to restaurants because I'd waited tables forever, and it's like, I know they're hiring. I have experience. I'd likely get hired. And just walking up to the door going, I need to go in there. I need to get a job. We're broke. I'll do it tomorrow. And I kept doing that. I kept, like, freezing, you know, like, I can't, and then, and then one day, I was like, Wait a second, I think I might be an artist, like a full time artist. And it just, it still makes me laugh, because I always had this idea that, you know, there's be this master plan, you know, where I've made this much, like, I always had this picture that I'd be at the kitchen table and we'd have kind of books out, you know, like, like, yeah. And I don't, like, I've never had any of that stuff, but that was just like, my picture that you'd be like, this is the logical step. We are ready, yeah. And it's sort of like, you know, being a full time artist is sort of like having a baby. If you wait till you're ready, you're ready, you're never going to have one, right?

Olya Konell 11:24

Like, a good analogy, yeah.

Aaron Schuerr 11:26

So, you know, and one of the things about, like, once, I was kind of at it full time. I was like, well, shoot, I've got, you know, at the time of little stubborn in the house, you know, that apparently I'm supposed to take care of kids. And, you know, see, you just sort of do what you need to do to make it work. So here I am. So that would have been 2005 now we're, you know, we live in Livingston, Montana. It's a little it was the gateway town to Yellowstone, like back in the day, if you took the train out to go to Yellowstone, you would get off at Livingston take a stagecoach into the park. So my inspirations, it's funny, the paintings I have behind me are desert paintings, but most of my work is, you know, just three or four miles, five miles, 10 miles from from my house. In fact, the one I'm working on right now is from my back alley. That's

Olya Konell 12:26

amazing. Wow. I love your story. And I want to just highlight two two things. I love the realization that you made when you realize and there's a saying you if you chase two rabbits, you'll catch neither, you know, or something, you'll catch that. And it's so true. I think we've all experienced that the power of focus on one thing is cannot be understated, and then the other thing I love. I just made me think of like, truly, for an artist, urgency is the best motivator and for all humans. And I love that like risk is so important, but also being able to, like you said, do what you got to do and and this is why, guys, if you're listening, get your questions ready. Go ahead and put them in, because I guarantee you, you're in a situation you don't have a roadmap, possibly as like, as you said, there's not, like, a road map, you know? And it's true, there's not a road map for this. And this is why these stories, these conversations, I think, are so valuable, you know, as far as how to do it, because there's not one way. I do want to quickly ask. So bringing it back to what you're doing now, because we're going to go all over the place after this. So right now, you mainly paint. I just want to touch base on what your offerings are. We're going to share your website with the audience. Let me pull it up. I did see that you do some teaching, because you have an amazing you have the wins it winter sunset in pastel. You have a video that people can buy and they can learn from you. Do you have other opportunities that we can share with with folks before we switch gears? Yes,

Aaron Schuerr 14:09

I guess I'd highlight a couple of the workshops that I have coming up the so one of the things that's been kind of fun, I the craziest project I've done in the last few years was we, my wife and I, along with some help from my brother in law, built a studio and talk about Gary. That was, I think, scarier than going full time. We built a two story studio. The bottom floor is a one bedroom apartment that we rent out. So the cutting plan is, you make the make the renter pay for the building, and then I'm upstairs right now in the new studio space. And so what I started to do last summer is i. I started to do, I did two workshops out of the studio, and what's unique about those is that I only take seven students, because that's what the space will allow. But that also gives me the opportunity to take students on to like I had this ranch that I paint on all the time. I've literally watched the trees grow up on this ranch of pain, just in the spot so many times. So it takes students to just my favorite local painting spots. We have my studio to work out of. So the the workshop costs a little bit more, but seven students, and I'll cook a dinner for everybody, and we just, it's really immersive. So it's like, it feels like more of a chance, more than a workshop, just feels like a chance to share, like here, this is my world. Come on, come and come and join it. So I have one. I have a few spots left. I just, just put it on my website. That's in June. I also have a workshop in, yeah, the Montana plein air exclusive. And then there's, if you want something, you know, a little more affordable, less time. I'm going to be teaching in another wonderful place, Big Sky. So that that one, and I probably, I haven't got it on there, but I will probably do a second Montana plein air workshop, maybe in late August. I did it in September last year, but this year I'm going to be in Australia. So, wow, yeah, so I'm going to miss that. So that's, that's my in person workshops. This

Olya Konell 16:43

is such a cool opportunity. I mean, just to be able to do that, and as somebody who has bought learning experiences from people like that, is such a fair price. Like that is so like to be able to go in and have that experience, I think is, is awesome. So,

Aaron Schuerr 17:01

yeah, thank you. Yeah, no, it's last year. I like, I don't mind. I mean, most workshops are, you know, I teach a lot of workshops where it's 15 people, and it's fun, but it's, you know, 15 people is a lot of like, okay, I'm, I'm spending a lot of mental energy. Like, have I given everybody value the value of times, right, giving everybody some love. So when you have, you know, six, seven people, and you know, you're having dinner together, you know, a couple of the nights, and, like, you know, just I felt like I really got to to know people, and I had time, you know, if someone needed a little extra time, I could give it. So that's, that's a model that I just really enjoyed. I'm looking at, I keep meaning to get started on, I'd like to start like a Patreon kind of online learning thing, but there's only one of me, and I just haven't got it together. So if that's something you're interested in, you know, shoot me an email or whatever, and can at least get you on the list. And at some point I'll get that thing going,

Angela Agosto 18:14

yeah? Newsletter that way. They can sign up, and you'll probably announce in your newsletter, if you're going, yeah, yeah,

Olya Konell 18:22

you have the video skill to to do it, because I'm a video editor, and I will consult people on getting their tech set up properly. If you do, when you do do it, you're gonna, you're gonna succeed like it's gonna be amazing. So

Aaron Schuerr 18:37

I keep meaning, you know, speaking of the marketing thing, it's, it's one of the things I've been I've been meaning to do for the past year, and just well, and I think part of it, what keeps happening is I'm like, Oh, we just got some fresh snow. I'm gonna run out and paint.

Olya Konell 18:56

Yeah. Stevie says I'd be interested in Patreon. Traveling isn't my thing any anymore. I actually like, I like Patreon too, because I've subscribed to a couple. Like, there's some things I pay for because I love what they're doing. And I'm like, it's $5 and like, I love the cause and whatever. And I get they make videos maybe once a month, and it's great. So there's like, you set your tears. That's what's so cool about it. For anybody who doesn't know what Patreon is, it's almost like it's a platform, and people set their prices and they put out lessons or content. It's a chance to connect. And there's usually different tiers. But Annette in our in our Q, a, she's asking, What? What did you start with in your What did you do, maybe, what did you start with in your studio to get started? Or what did it? What did it take?

Aaron Schuerr 19:46

Or when, as far as building a studio, is that what she's

Olya Konell 19:49

Can you clarify, and if you want to drop it in the chat, yeah,

Aaron Schuerr 19:54

if you're asking, like, on building this studio, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was, I mean, like, like, I think there's a lot of what we do, you know, these, these different moments in the the art, you know, building a career. There's, man, I feel like there's a lot of moments where you're, like, standing on the cliff, looking at the water below, going, all right? 1230, I didn't jump. Okay. 123, the studio was a big one,

Olya Konell 20:30

and she qualified materials. Yeah, materials for the studio, yeah, what? I'm assuming she said materials. What did you What materials did you start with in your studio? To get started, is what I'm guessing, like, I guess,

Aaron Schuerr 20:46

what I'm not totally clear on is, if she means, like, building my studio, or just just, like, material, like, what's in? Oh, construct. There's some new construction. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. And I don't want to go too much into that, because I think that's kind of a very much, yeah, but what I think I would talk about is one of the things that was hard in the process was I had a I had been renting a large studio space in an old it was an old School House in Livingston. Pretty good rent and and my wife, basically, you know we were talking, she said, you know, if you, if you keep renting, you're always going to be renting, and it's never going to be yours. And so the hardest move I made was I previously, my studio was a little alley garage. I mean, tiny, I think, 12 by 20. So I moved back into that teeny, tiny, little studio where I was tripping over myself, and I ended up being back in that studio for another, I don't know, or five years, and while we plan and saved up. And then, and then, that the hard part was, then I, you know, literally ripped down the old studio by myself, and and then over the course of the summer, my brother in law, and the initial summer was the kind of the general contractor, and it's the building is, I don't want to go into all that, but, he and my wife, this person, wasn't too bad, because they put up the show. And then after that, it was, it was just my wife and I, and we thought we were going to be able to contract out more of the work, but that's the way. It's hard to find people that can do the work and on a timeline. So there's a few things that we had people do. Obviously, the pad and the upstairs has got a high ceiling, so I had to have them at least do the drywall upstairs. But the rest of it, we did ourselves. My wife designed it, plumbed it. I did the water lines, the drywall, the floors, the and I learned so, like, we call it the studio built by YouTube. You know, you writing something like, I don't know how to do? You just sit there and you watch a dozen YouTube videos and try to figure out which ones are the best, and then try to do that, yep. And I think, like, for her, it was a she loved it. I mean, I think that's like, her brain. She's just like, Ooh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out how to do plumbing, and I'm gonna plum the whole building. That is like, oh my goodness, you're amazing.

Angela Agosto 23:29

How Inspiring!

Olya Konell 23:32

you know, YouTube University, yes, but I want to highlight this right here, this moment for everybody. If you're listening and you're like, if there's something you want to do and you don't know how to do it, that is an excuse, that is not a reason, because somebody knows how to do it, and somebody has made a YouTube video about it. And I remember, we, I mean, any little thing you could think of, there's somebody made a video. So going back to, oh, really quick, so when you started your studio, did you have because you're doing these things in there, what kind of do you have, or, I think people are also a follow up question is, what kind of materials well, do you use, and did you stock in there? Do you have brands or recommendations on things like, yeah, for

Aaron Schuerr 24:15

painting, right? So I work in pastel and oil and so, as far as the pastels I, I have a zillion different, you know, brands, anything set on a mine. Oh, yes, they do. Thank you. I do have a pastel set. Looks like you have a link to it. If the link doesn't work, I think the link is broken. No,

Angela Agosto 24:47

I went to it, it works. Yeah, I could see it. Yeah. Okay,

Aaron Schuerr 24:50

yeah. So if you have any trouble finding the set, just get a hold of me. I put together a set with Jack Richeson and company, and. And, you know, try to make it as practical a set as I could, because a lot of the by pastel sets, and a lot of the colors are just too bright for landscape. So I wanted to try to put together something that was usable. And so pastels, it's, it's, I use soft pastels. I don't really work hard to soft. I just kind of get the color that works. But yeah, a variety of brands with and then also my own set oils. I use mostly M Graham and company for oils. Rosemary brushes are my, my go to my plein air easel setups, I have a couple of them are strata and, you know, they're maybe not the the lightest of all the easels, but you know, I've had it, you know, I've had my stuff blow over in the wind, and I never worry about it breaking. So that, to me, is more important. And, you know, and I, I do have a take it easel for working really large, because I've been doing, I've been doing more and more. It's funny. I I thought that as I got older, I would become more and more of a studio painter. And the opposite has happened. Where I've been. I've been starting to, you know, like you can look on that Instagram thing, there's one that says blocking in a 20 by 30, you know, and that's a dead of winter that I'm worked on that piece, and I wasn't able to finish it because, only because it we got Sub Zero weather. And, yeah, just and, oh no, we got a bunch of storms that came in. So if I'm doing anything larger than say that 20 by 30 on location, I have a take it easel that allows you to to do, you know I've done 30 by 40 on location. I love just, I think part of being an artist is just finding, finding the ways that you can express yourself most honestly. And for me, it's, it's being outside, being on location. I don't know if that answers panels I use Centurion. Are that the kind of economical linen. If I for the larger pieces, I use Claessens 13 oil, prime linen. It's like kind of a portrait weave. And I'll, I'll go to a frame shop and have it dry mounted onto Gator board or board, and that's that's cheaper than if you try to buy a panel like that,

Olya Konell 24:50

yeah. And for everybody listening to, if just a little fun tip, if you are posting on social media and you're using a specific brand of something and that company has a social media account, tag them in it, because they love that, and they'll share it, and other people will see it. So like, for your pastel sets, I wanted to ask, is it by Jack Richeson? Because I was trying to find the actual product. Oh, it was on his site and I posted it. Oh, okay, yeah, okay. And the it's a Judson's art,

Aaron Schuerr 28:20

yeah, Judson art carries it. They carry a bunch of and they carry other. They're the nice thing on those sets is that there are other artists that have put together sets. So I'm not, I don't mind if you see someone else's set and you go, Oh, that's closer to what the kind of work I'm doing. Then, you know, I found it. But they're, yeah, they're nice and practical the sets, because, like I said, Yeah, landscape sets, the general, generic landscape sets for most pastel companies are not very practical. Got it,

Olya Konell 28:53

yeah, they're kind of generic, and you fine tuned it so we have Deb asking, so can you talk about personal things that have elevated your art sales,

Aaron Schuerr 29:06

art sales, okay, yeah, yeah. Um, so, I think one of the hardest things about being an artist is that we are sharing. We're sharing, you know, we're really sharing the deepest part of ourselves, um, you know, and it's, it's a, you know, it's a primal art has been with us since we've picked up a piece of charcoal out of the fire, but at the same time, it's a product. And, you know, and I've struggled over the years with, like, how do you balance those two things? My conclusion is, you don't it's just there's contradictions in life that just are irreconcilable, and that's okay. But the way that I, the way that it's worked for me, is to always try to keep it personal and think of it in terms of people. So. So, in other words, like, so, when I go on Instagram, you know, and I do, I do quite a few reels on Instagram, you know, I do the videos. And I think of it as, this is my this is storytelling. It's my chance to connect to people, people, you know, one of the things I've discovered with social media is people love to be brought into the creative process. So this started back before there were reels. I was doing these, like I call them easel shots, where I'd do a sometimes the painting would slot into the landscape, yes, and I would just snap a picture of it, and back in the day before reels that was like, people like, well, you know, those would blow up so much so that I ended up on the Kelly Clarkson show because of my during the pandemic. So I didn't get to see her in person. Because, you know, it was when it was all, you know, we were all in lockdown. But, yeah, it was funny. Someone, her rep, got a hold of me, and, you know, someone who follows Instagram stuff, and she had a section on her show, you know what, I'm following on social media. And he called me up, and he said, you know, would you be interested being on the Kelly Clarkson show? And I said, I probably should know who Kelly Clarkson is, shouldn't I? So instead of thinking about like, oh, this would be a good marketing thing, I think of it in terms of like, this is a this is a way I can share my story. And each of us has a unique story, no matter where you're at, you know you have something to share, so in terms of what's worked and you know, like in a more technical level, you know that. And I'm not the person to to invent this idea, but you're trying to take people from, say, Instagram, Facebook, and get them onto your website and onto your newsletter, because that's where the real communication happens. So if you haven't signed up for my newsletter, sign up for my newsletter, and on that one, you know, like you can, I'm sure you can find a bunch of things on like, how to effectively write a newsletter. And I just look at it as like, how do you tell the story of what you're experiencing? So I'm really honest in my, you know, in my newsletters, and in my, you know, it's like, and what I'm finding is, I think that newsletters, I can't remember what the statistic is like. 40 plus percent is considered a good open rate. And I have, I don't know, like, an 80% open rate on my on my newsletter. You know, I think it's like, I have 1300 newsletter subscribers, and I generally get around close to 900 that open, wow, each newsletter, because I, because I just make it personal, yeah. So that's I would if I one of the areas that I if there was more of me, if I had an assistant, you know that that's where I struggle right now, is just, there's only so much time. I think what I would keep better track of individual collectors, so that, you know the ideal universe I'd be like, oh, so and so bought they've already bought three coastal scenes. I'm going to send them a personal email, or I'm going to send them a card. That's that's that's the step that I'm not doing as much as I would like to do, but, but with the newsletter subscribers, what's nice is, you, you know, I'll often get the story of, like, what a piece means to someone, why they bought it. You start to kind of note, like, I feel like I started to get to know people that I've never met in person through that. So that, to me, is like I always try to find a way of making the marketing personal, and that keeps me from feeling like a shameless salesman.

Olya Konell 34:16

I love that, and that is what you just described, is actually what we teach artists through our like BoldBrush circle of marketing. And you are right. It is hard to balance it all. And the advice that we've given everybody is it's like spinning plates. You can only get one plate successfully going at a time before you add something else. And sometimes it's it could be large. It could be a year or two or three until you grab the next plate, because you're in that position to get that so, like, what you're doing is, is, you know, like, perfect. And I love that you include those personal stories, because I love reading them. And when you said 80% open rate, I actually read a statistic. Like, about a year ago, and I haven't checked it within the last 12 months, but I'm sure it hasn't changed that when it comes they the stat on open rates for artist emails is amongst one of the highest. So if you're an artist, you're in a privileged position. People actually want to hear from you because they want to. They do. And it's like, it's like government emails, doctors email from your health, you know, like life and death, light, death and taxes, you know. And then there's

Angela Agosto 35:26

art, right? So want to see entertaining, inspiring, yeah?

Olya Konell 35:32

And gonna throw out the next question. So Caroline asks, what do you consider the best way to bring more awareness to your artwork and its availability for purchase, growing your email list or paid advertising in your area, or both which you've kind of answered it. But do you have any other like things that you do, and I call this invisible marketing? Is there something you do that's offline, that helps you as well, that you can think of, not,

Aaron Schuerr 35:59

not a lot, because I found that, you know, in terms of paid advertising, what I understand is like, unless you're ready to, like, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do an ad every month, you know, I'm gonna invest a huge amount of money and do An ad every month in whatever art magazine, unless it's really regular and visible, it's not really all that productive. Because I found that, you know, like, I occasionally will get, you know, I've gotten Awards where the awards are, like, you know, a full page ad in southwest art or that kind of thing. And I haven't felt like there was a whole lot of return that. Sorry to the art magazines I love you all. You know, I wish. I wish that was the more productive way to go, because I want to see magazines do well,

Angela Agosto 36:54

more consistent in the ad than you feel like, yeah, absolutely,

Aaron Schuerr 36:58

you know. I mean, that's that's talking to other artists, the people that have done well in that realm, it's, it's through consistent investment, you know, like just doing like a once a year one page ad or something like that is, you know, it's not gonna be that terribly effective. I guess the things that I've done that are under the radar is, you know, because most of mine is traditional, like, what you're saying, like with newsletter, is my my personal outreach, and then, you know, galleries, so it's kind of a mix of of those things. Sometimes through workshops, I might sell a few pieces the other way. And this is, I guess this is kind of unique to me, is I'm also, I'm an actor and a writer as well, like, in fact, I'm working on a play right now that I'm writing, and we're workshopping and hoping to get produced in the next year, and that has sometimes led to opportunities. One of the more unique things that I've been doing regularly is working with Gretchen Minton, and it's Montana insight theater, and we do site specific a lot of it's around Shakespeare. She's a Shakespeare scholar at Montana State University, and she puts together these kind of walking they're almost like walking tours, but you would be walking with a guide, and someone would a couple people would do a scene from Romeo and Juliet, and then you go a little further, and someone else. Anyway, I'm always set up painting, and then I write. What she'll do is she'll give me a couple of monologs and say, write something around it, and we'll work together. You know, I'll write something, bring it to her, and she helps me refine it, edit it. And so it's this crazy. It was a crazy juggling act. I'll be out painting, and then a group every about 20 minutes or so comes and I'll put down the brushes, and I will perform, and Oh, wow. And that performs Shakespeare monologs And also, but usually I'm weaving it together with the artistic experience. So it'll be me, and I'll be in and out of the Shakespeare and so it's and that has led to some really cool connections. One is through there's a there's a ranch called tippet rise that has incredible they're they're bringing in, like one of us, world's most incredible collection of site specific sculpture, sculptures on this huge ranch in the foothills of the bear to so we perform there every year. And they have done. Lot, almost every painting that I've done during these performances. So It cracks me up, because they have, I mean, like last year, I performed under a giant Calder sculpture with a view of the Bertus behind me. And, you know, and I'm doing these little, like 11 my fourteens, and they've bought all of them, and they're putting them together. So I love, like, these giant sculptures and my little paintings. So I you know, so that I know that was kind of long, but like finding ways of allowing your creative expression to lead you wherever it's gonna go. Yeah, and opportunities happen. We just did one of these performances in we do. We always do one in winter where we have people cross country skiing a loop one direction, and performers are skiing the other direction. You stop performers, and they'll perform for you. And again, I'm painting. It was zero degrees this year, and you know, so like, you know. So then I'm painting and performing, in this case, my original poetry. And, you know, so I wrote some poetry. And, you know, someone that I've known for a long time bought the painting that I did this year during that two days of doing that. So, you know, so getting out there, you know, so for each of you, it's going to be something different and unique. I find that, you know, like some of the, some of the past that were the more traditional past from didn't, while they were good, maybe didn't, didn't, weren't sustainable, like, you know, I've always gone for, you know, there's the big shows or the big galleries, and I think what's been hard at times is like, I've, like, I was showing at Legacy galleries, like the big gallery that that took me on, you know, it's like, yeah, you know, like you've arrived when you get into a gallery like that. And it's like, well, I didn't actually, they're wonderful. I love them, and I still send pieces to them occasionally. But there are bigger artists in a gallery like that, and so maybe it's the gallery that's a little smaller, that doesn't have as many artists that you can, you know, have a little bit of a personal relationship with the gallery owner, so be willing to say, like, all right, bad idea. Didn't, didn't quite pan out. It's okay, we're gonna go this way now, yeah,

Olya Konell 42:31

and, and somebody had asked about galleries, like, how did you get representation? So that kind of answers it. And what you're basically also saying is that it that traditional route. Not that it didn't work for you, like it did stuff, but it, what you found is just following, following, like making your own path, not even following the path. You're making your own path, following the direction that best allows you to express yourself in every way as a human being that has led to the to the connections and opportunities that have allowed you to best sell your work. And right is that? And I wanted to to really kind of highlight that, because I think this is where artists we get stuck, is we're looking for the roadmap, and instead, we have to look inward, you know, and really kind of like, what am I good at? Like, and going back to marketing, I'm going to redefine this for everybody. And this is something I like to say at the beginning, and I may or may not have done that this time. Marketing is everything we do, online and offline, every activity that allows us to meet other humans and share our art with them, and that could be what you were just doing, it could be something else. It could be volunteering, it could be traveling. It could be, you know, it's going to be different for everybody. And I think the success lies in that it's leaning into that, and that is so freaking cool, like you're performing and then you're painting, and, I mean, your brain is just doing that creative summer songs. You're engaging both hemispheres.

Aaron Schuerr 44:10

What I love about like, where the path has led me that with that is that, you know, early on, it's like, I can't remember someone describing as, like, you have to kill things to to, you know, like, they're, they're like, I'm interested in this. I do this, I like that. And you have to kind of kill off some of those things and really focus on something, on, you know, say, in painting and, and maybe even more so, like, you know, I'm just going to focus on landscape painting and what I found for myself is those things that I sort of set aside in writing, they have all come back. Oh. And so now I feel like the way I would think about myself as an artist is like. Like this is my main focus, that the paintings, you know, this is where I'm spending every day. But as when I think of myself as an artist, this also pays the bills. You know, I make a little bit off of acting, I make a little bit off of writing, but not, not enough to make the living. But I don't think of them as lesser. I think of myself as an artist, and I do the marketing where I need to do it to to be able to continue. And what I love is that's been happening, is how these different disciplines have started to feed each other. You know, who would have thought I could ever stand at an easel, paint, perform, do, acting and stuff that I've written all at the same all at the

Olya Konell 45:49

same time. That's what I'm saying.

Aaron Schuerr 45:51

Beautiful, beautiful. So, I mean, it's like the the engagement that I've had with people through that, like, there are just, I think, as a reminder that, like, there's, there's some intangibles, like, I can't, you know, a lot of these interactions I've had with people, it's not something I could monetize, but it gives me so much energy, because, like, these kind of performances are so intimate. You're looking right at a person, unlike on a stage, you know, I'm looking at the lights. I can't even like when I act on stage. I don't even know who's in how many people in the audience, until we bow at the end, like, oh, look, we're full. Great. I have no idea. And I mean, I can feel the energy from the audience, but when I'm doing these things in the field, like, as a quick example, one of the first ones that I did writing for, you know, the audience has come up. And I and I started talking about the art, the process of plein air painting, you know, I do. It's because it's direct, it's improvisational. It's the truest expression I can find. And I start talking about the challenges of plein air painting, you know, how do you distill the complexity of all of this onto a two dimensional surface with pigment? It seems crazy to try. And then worse that the doubts that start to creep in. And you know, then at the end of this thing, I said that that worse I worse than doubting myself. I doubt you the grace that you, the viewer, the audience, bring to the process. I know that's not what you expected to hear today, but I have of late, and wherefore, I know not lost all my mirth. We're going all custom of exercises. And indeed, it goes so heavily with my disposition. So that's Hamlet. So I'm just talking, as Aaron you know, about the doubts of being an artist, and it seamlessly goes right into Hamlet, and all of a sudden it means something very different. So it's a way to to bring people in, like this is my theme, is bringing people in not just to the art, but to the artistic process. And being transparent with that is such a gift that we can give people. Oh,

Olya Konell 48:21

absolutely. And it's so raw, and it i art if we can, if we can touch the emotional heart strings of a person, connect with them on a human, raw level. That's why people buy art, because it either connects with their story, or they connect with you, the story that you are telling, and like they're in that moment, they have this experience. They want to remember this moment. They want that, even if it's a small little piece, like they want it, because they'll never forget that moment, like it's a big but maybe it, maybe it changed their perspective on life. Maybe they were, you know, going through something, and then they had this magical moment, and they're like, I'm gonna go live my life differently, like we don't. It's it's beautiful. It gives me goosebumps. I just the idea of it. But you touched on something when you were talking about this before you transitioned, like as you were trying to transition into Hamlet. And somebody asked about imposter syndrome and self doubt. So I want to ask you about that. So, yeah, no. And oh, I lost, but yeah, it's like, how do you ever struggle with that? And how do you overcome that? Every

Aaron Schuerr 49:32

day I struggle with that, and it's more that, like the process of doing a painting is, you know, at the beginning, you're like, this is, oh, this, I got the greatest idea here. This is, this is really, look at this, you know, I'm blocking the color. This is the breakthrough. And then at the end, you're like, that wasn't the breakthrough. And I. I, you know, there's times over the years where it's gotten really bad, where I just, I like, I don't, you know, like to the point where you're like, I Are you looking at the same painting that I'm looking at? How could you like it? You know, and it can get really it can get really bad. There's a couple of things that have helped me, just epiphanies over the years. I just wrote about one in a recent issue of the pastel journal, and that was just this moment, like when I'm doing a demo for a workshop, and someone's always has this comment like, oh, you make it look so easy. And I'll joke like, oh, only you could hear the voices in my head. And then I thought, what if they could? Oh, that would be horrible. Because, like, if they could hear what I'm saying to myself, like, I would never talk to anyone else like that. You know, never. I would never say to things to someone else that I say to myself. And then I started thinking about that, like, Well, then why do I do that to myself? Like, I wouldn't teach the same way. When I teach, I'm looking at someone and trying to understand where they are at, where they want to get to, and what are the sticking points, and how can I help them, you know, realize their ambition as an artist. And so I started thinking, like, why don't I treat myself like I treat my students and celebrate like pain doesn't always work out. What did I learn in that process? Because every painting that doesn't work out is one closer to the one that really does. You know, I'd like coastal scenes are a good example of that, where I fell in love with painting the coast, but it's only something I've done in the last maybe 10 years. And so, you know, I had to do a lot of really bad wave paintings to get to something that was better. And it's not effective to beat myself up. It doesn't get me there, and it hurts. So just trying to recognize when those like those demons start to talk to you, just to be able to recognize and say, Yeah, I'm, maybe I'm, maybe I need a break. I'm feeling bad about myself. It's okay, like, just to, you know, almost create, like, look, I'm, I'm doing that bad self talk, okay, and giving that some distance, and allowing myself to focus on process and treating myself more like I would treat my students has been really helpful. Same thing with I used to have a really, you know, like neurotic trouble with art openings, you know, because you're everything's on the line, you know, you've got all your artwork out there, and maybe it, I mean, I've had many experiences where I've put everything out there and nothing is sold. And I thought, Oh, God, you know, I'm gonna have to get a job. This is, you know, like, start catastrophizing. And I started to think about, like, Okay, why do I get so freaked out by openings? I'm not, you know, I do theater. I'm not like shy and and I started to think about it in terms of, like, who's coming to a gallery we're all coming to try to find an experience of connecting, and we're connecting through art. So I go in now and I say, like, find, like, I'll call my wife before an opening. If she's not around, she's like, Okay, put your game face on, all right. Like, this little conversation. Like, remember the humanity in the room. Find people, find a conversation, find something, you know, find an interest, connection, and someone find a connection and recognize that all I can do is the work. You know. I can't there's a very limited amount of there's a very small sphere that I can control. Outside of that I have no control. I put the best frame on it as I can. I take a shower, I put clean clothes on, I stand there and I smile and it's funny, and I try to connect to people, and if it's not going well, oh well, you know, I put the work out there, and it's so often now it's happened where something didn't sell, and then, you know, it sold at the next show, or I had another opportunity. I woke up the next day and I painted. So not taking it so personally has been important, finding ways to communicate with people. To connect to them has been important. There was something else I was going to say, maybe it'll pop in my head. But okay,

Olya Konell 55:07

no, that that is 100% Yeah, it's 100% true, like finding ways to connect with people. And the advice is to, like, treat yourself the way you treat other people. You wouldn't talk to them like that. Don't talk to yourself like that and like becoming aware of it and recognizing like that. Those are like. You hear yourself do it. You're like, hey, brain, I hear you, you know. And then you go on your you know. You go through your process. Because it's, I wouldn't say it's comforting to hear as artists, because I paint too. I'm not a full time artist. I just have my passion that I love to do and don't always even share about it, but we it's comforting to know that the struggles that we are having. Everybody else has them, even people that have gone before us have struggled with it, and to hear that is reassuring that, like, hey, that didn't stop them. It won't stop me, you know. So

Angela Agosto 56:09

I appreciate I was gonna say, I just wanted to highlight that you said, like you're in theater, you're out there, you're on stage, and the fact that you even get a little bit nervous about doing an in person, because that's what we tell a lot of artists, in person is more. It's just as important, if not more, than just online connecting like when you're invited to an event or a show or at a gallery, they invite you say no because you're nervous, but the fact that even you who are out there, you know, on a stage, get nervous, I think that's important, that you shared what you do, and that the fact that that happens to you, because it's going to encourage other artists that it's okay just try it. You know, like, I think Ola, you said, like, talk to yourself in front of a mirror at first, and then, yeah, kind of continue. And then practice, like you said, you get a pep talk from your wife. It's important to do that, but then definitely don't miss out on those in person events, because, you know, make a connection with somebody or something, or, like you said, wake up the next day, be inspired to paint something,

Olya Konell 57:05

yeah, and and to add those connections. Sometimes, for those of us that haven't been invited to a show or haven't been invited to be in a gallery, don't underestimate the connections of going to a barbecue from somebody you have no and shaking some hands, and people ask you, Hey, what do you do? I'm an artist. Oh, really. What do you you know you show like every single opportunity to meet a flesh and blood human being in person is an opportunity to connect. And that's like a great way to get practice. And so if you don't, if you're in a position, I would say where you're not there yet. You know you're not, you know you're don't have the big show. Find ways to go to events where support other artists get go to the places, go to other you know, go support other artists, go meet people, be social. And that's that can be hard for us sometimes, because we just want to be in our little hidey hole, you know. And I'm a hermit, so it's really hard for me, but occasionally I'll do it and then I feel really good about it. I'm like, Oh, that was so cool. I met humans

Aaron Schuerr 58:05

and just recognizing, you know, wherever you it sounds really lame, but wherever you are is where you meant to be. So just, and I think that it's focusing on process over product becomes really important in terms of the mental game of of keeping at it and keeping that longevity. You know that the the the plateau sometimes can be long before you have that breakthrough and start to grow. But having a growth mindset over a I think one of the things that can happen with people is they want to hurry the process. And, you know, so you and I've seen it in marketing suggestions of, you know, finding a stick, finding a you know, that I'm the you know. I remember reading an article like, you know, you need to brand yourself like, I'm the goat painter, whatever. And I thought, Well, are you happy though? You know, it's if, like, goats are like, really what you're invested in painting goats and you're really, like, that's your passion. Then go for it. That's great. But don't do it because, okay, that's the thing I could market. And you know, you see that in the art world, where there are a lot of, you know, there's a lot of imitators, and sometimes you have to go through that to find your own voice, and that's okay, too. But I find that just exploring what you're most passionate about is what's going to get you the best work focusing on growth over profit is going to keep you in for the long game. Yeah, I

Olya Konell 59:53

want to ask a question for myself, but we kind of talked about this early on, and I've. Apologize. We're over by a couple minutes. But if you guys are still okay, I you know we can, we can go a little bit more. One of the things we talked about before we went live is we, I the topic of, like, if you, if you're not feeling well, like physically unwell, because I'm ADHD, I struggle to focus. I do certain things in my life that I figured out work, and I harness that creative energy. My ability to get distracted is my superpower, is what I call it now, that's what, but if, but if, but if, I'm, like, physically unwell, which I have struggled with health things in the past, like my backs hurt, like things have, you know, I, you know, I've learned that if I don't feel good, I can't do good work. And I you brought that up as well, and I want to just hear your perspective, or, like, if you can give us some advice, you know, as far as, how do we make ourselves physically well enough to be able to physically execute the things that we want to do easel, you know, do all of that stuff.

Aaron Schuerr 1:01:04

Yeah, no, that's a great I'm glad you brought that up, because I almost think of painting as a sport on one level, like it's an endurance sport, and so our bodies and our minds need to be equipped and ready for it. So I found a huge difference between so when I was younger, I was active, but not like, I wasn't in the gym and I didn't do weight training. I know this seems off, but and I started to do that, I had a lot of really, really bad back hip issues, and so like, I teach a workshop, I'd finish a demo, and I'd be like, I'd have to go off and and go double over and stretch, because my back would hurt so badly, and it's really hard to teach and communicate, or just to paint for yourself if you're uncomfortable. So I started, for me, it's I do CrossFit, I also climb and bike and hunt and ski and do lots of other things, but, but that's like my my, I mean, that's my daily thing, and what that's meant is that I can go up to the easel, and I can stand there if I need to for eight hours and I feel fine, yeah, I don't have to stop. And, I mean, I need to stop because, you know, I need breaks, yeah, you know, I need those breaks. But, but, but finding ways to strengthen your your body, to taking that time to go to the gym, and it doesn't have to, you know, whatever you find, and a little bit of strength training. I think walking is great, but adding a little strength so that your support is good because they're standing in a particular position, yeah, and you're a long time, and, you know, you get you can get twisted, and you can really kind of mess yourself up, and your shoulder can get messed up, and so taking that time to take care of yourself is going to make you a better painter, and it's also going to give you more endurance. And then the other, the other two pieces of that is, is sleep and nutrition. You know, if I think of it like a sport, I need to get my eight hours of sleep. I am I'm a big fan of napping. Now I only I'll have a little caffeine in the morning. I used to always power through with my afternoon cup coffee, and then I have sleep issues, so then I need more coffee, more caffeine. So now, like I get to say two in the afternoon, and if I'm tired, I take a nap, even if I have a deadline. And for me, it's only like I set the timer, it's 20 minute nap, and sometimes I need to take a little walk around the block just to get my hat on. But that's a superpower like you wake up from that, and then I'm back at the easel and I feel focused. It's so hard to, you know, starting to feel tired now, and I'm going to work through it. I'm going to keep painting, and then nutrition, like eating, well, all those things are, have made it so that, especially like, if I'm going to go out and do plein air events, like when I do say, Laguna plein air on a festival like that. I've regularly put in 14 hour days, and that's the only way I could get through it, is by being fit enough. So take care of yourselves first, and then you'll be able to have more creative energy.

Olya Konell 1:04:40

Yeah, and I don't really hear people talk about that, or we it's just not a conversation that, like, you really hear on the artist podcast. It's always about technique and this and that. But then, like, there's those days where I'm like, you just don't feel like it. You don't feel like painting. You You're and I have, I don't know who else here or not, I've had back issues. I had back issues the few years after, I started painting more, and then that's how I realized the two were connected, and it was because of how I stood. My core wasn't strong, and you're lifting one arm, you're doing something else with your other, and it really skews things up. So I really, I'm glad that you've highlighted that, because it is a sport. We're using our bodies to create something. It is, it is when

Aaron Schuerr 1:05:28

people, people come up to you, like, especially like, if I'm painting on the beach or something, and they're like, oh, it looks so fun, or it looks so relaxing, you just like, I'm gonna smile. I'm not gonna give them like I'm daggers are coming out. Like, I've been standing in the sun for, you know, eight hours at this point.

Olya Konell 1:05:48

Yeah, oh, it's so fun.

Aaron Schuerr 1:05:49

But yeah, taking care of yourself is foundational, sure.

Olya Konell 1:05:58

A couple I do you mind if I grab a couple more questions about specifics. So somebody asked about, we have some newsletter questions since we talked about it. So developing your email marketing for newsletter, do you use? Like, what do you? What do you? What system do you use? I don't know if you use Faso, or do you use MailChimp, or do you use something else? I

Aaron Schuerr 1:06:16

just use Faso, artful mail. Yeah, they've got good templates. It's, it's easy, you know, it's easy. You can just pop your pictures in and write so it's nothing. I don't do anything fancy in terms of layout. I don't think it's, you know, it's, it's mine is just like, kind of a white background and, and actually, images, yeah, yeah, there's nothing. It's it's simple. I don't think it needs to be anything other than that. And yeah, like the integrated newsletter that Faso has is really easy to work with. It works great. So, and

Olya Konell 1:06:55

I think too many times we get too focused on thinking we need some kind of a new, cooler platform when reality, we just need to do the basics. And the basics, you know, is sufficient for what we're trying to achieve. And then let me have to go anywhere else

Angela Agosto 1:07:11

because your paint is loaded. It's

Olya Konell 1:07:13

easy, yeah, and

Aaron Schuerr 1:07:15

that's what I love about, I mean, the site in general, like the Faso site. It's been so nice to work with. Like, you guys are great. Like, thank you. I had another platform before that where it was all you had to type in all your questions. You never got to talk to someone in person. And there's, I just remember there was times I'm like, if I could talk someone for five minutes, have this worked out. And so, like, I re, you know, I don't know, maybe year and a half ago or something, I did some redesign, and, like, ended up with a person who just, like, I don't know, a couple hours where we walk through, like, okay, let's rethink this website. Let's change the portfolios and, yeah, fantastic. Yeah. I

Olya Konell 1:08:08

love hearing that. Yeah. We love hearing that. And that's something we pride ourselves with, is like the support, because we don't like dealing with bad supporting.

Speaker 1 1:08:18

Get it? No, the support is best. Thank you.

Olya Konell 1:08:23

A couple of framing questions so technical, how do you frame your pastels, specifically, glass is very heavy and a problem in shipping any suggestions? And then somebody else asked about framing as well. You know, do you have any suggestions for framing, for economic frames? Right?

Aaron Schuerr 1:08:43

Man, if we didn't have to deal with framing, it'd be such a great career.

Olya Konell 1:08:48

Raise your hand. Oh my

Aaron Schuerr 1:08:50

goodness, yeah. So like though I know if you can see this one behind me, this I made this frame. So I make a lot of mine, but that's time consuming. My wife will help me as much as possible with, like, all the sanding and stuff. So with pastels, I use museum glass. It's expensive, but it's worth it. And I played, you know, back and forth between you can actually put the pastel right up against the glass, as long as you tape the edges and it's tight so there's no movement. And I found that that works, generally works pretty well. I framed my my pastels, just like my oils, you know, without a mat, I've also used spacers. What I'm starting to move towards with the larger pastels, I don't do too many large pastels, is using, there's the museum Plexi now. Yeah, because I've just had, I feel like shipping has gotten harder. It used to be, you know, I went years between having any issues with glass breakage or anything, and then all of a sudden, it's like, whoa. Every other large pastel I try to ship ends up like I just dropped this thing off the truck. So I've decided that anything bigger than, say, 18 by 24 I'm going to use museum Plexi, which is even more expensive, but so anyway, I seem to be able to get the pieces there. I don't really have any great like economical I use king of frame. Sometimes they're lovely to work with. For some of my frames, I make some of mine, and then when I can I've gotten frames from masterworks. Frames, they're custom. But all that stuff has has gotten more expensive, so it's, I wish I had a better answer for you, and then I make my own for a lot of them well.

Olya Konell 1:11:07

And this is, this is helpful. It just, it does mean that artists have to be a little resourceful, depending on what you're doing and finding what works for you. Maybe have a nice frame shop locally that you could use. And I would really start locally and kind of branch out. And yeah, there's lots of websites. There was one another question that I wanted to cherry pick, and it was about branding and and you mentioned it, and I want to So in regards to marketing, what would be the most effective way to rebrand myself as an artist. I'm assuming this person either has a reputation out there somewhere, or maybe they're meaning like, how do I create this brand? And you mentioned something about branding. It's not it's, it's, you know, it's not what people think. So going, I guess what I'm trying to say is going back to that, what, what are some tangible things a person can do to build their reputation, even if the word branding is maybe not the best term. So,

Aaron Schuerr 1:12:14

I mean, I think it naturally happens, you know, the kind of branding. But I think, first of all, just, I guess the thought that pops out to me is maybe to sit down and write, you know, what are your goals, personally and professionally, you know? And start with that, because, you know, like for me, my goal is to be able to my goal is to paint the landscape. So I want to paint. My goal is to spend as much time I said it early on, like, you know, way back in college, my goal is to be outside as much as possible for the rest of my life. And, you know, sometimes for me, like outside is a little bit more improvisational flying by the seat of your pants a little bit. Coming Back in the Studio allows me to, it's, it's like the difference between jazz and composing, you know, it's, it outside is improvisational. Inside, in the studio is where I can take those ideas and let them gestate and and build a more focused idea and work on, you know, say, like a larger piece, like this one behind me. That's, you know, that's a studio piece done from a plein air study. And I didn't have the opportunity to say, go back to that spot five times like I would somewhere nearby. So sitting down and writing, like, what are my goals artistically? What are my goals professionally, and are those two things at odds with each other? You know, there's in the back of my mind, you know, like, maybe if I started to lean more into the Western like, Western art market is super hot right now, and, you know, like, ranch I paint on there are old school Ranchers on there, you know, horseback and everything, but that just hasn't been my like, I love seeing them, but it's not something I feel like I really Want to spend time with that, because I'm not a I'm not that invested in photography. And in order to do some of that kind of work, you've got to be, you know, a good photographer. I've watched people out, you know, doing photography that kind of thing, you know, they've got all the lenses and all the, you know, they're putting a lot of that stuff together. It's a different kind of headspace to be able to put work like that together. To me, it's more about the solitude and the land itself. So I'm gonna stick with that, even though, you know, maybe, yeah, I could make more money if I started putting boys wouldn't

Angela Agosto 1:14:57

be true to yourself, because, like you said, That's not. And feel like spending your time with and I feel like that would probably reflect in your work exactly.

Aaron Schuerr 1:15:05

Yeah. I mean, that's the art so, so asking, like, what do you really want? Because I have seen and I want to be careful, like, I'm not trying to put anybody down here. I have seen artists that have you know, kind of hit on a marketing idea and then, like, really taken off. And not all of them are, like, even, you know, they're not necessarily the greatest painters or whatever, but they, you know, they've hit on an idea, and they've, they've run with it, and I feel like more power to them, but, but for me, that's not the path that that I've wanted to take. I don't. I just if I can, if I can paint, pay the mortgage, and have a little wiggle room to go out and go climbing and backpacking and live in a place like this.

Olya Konell 1:16:05

That's enough. That's true wealth actually, right there, to be able to do what you love doing, and have have peace.

Aaron Schuerr 1:16:13

Yeah, I love there's two artists that just, it really hit me. I was talking to an artist who had been a really, I mean, top level sculptor for his whole career, and he was shifting to painting because he felt like he wanted to be able to express some things he couldn't in sculpture. And I was like, wow, because you got, I mean, this is someone where these big shows are expecting Him and to produce. And he's like, he said, you know, the whole point of this career is to get to the point where I can do what I want. Yeah, and, you know, that's the goal. I was like, Oh, I love that. And then another artist, I asked him about, like, another artist who just has, through his whole career, shifted from sculpture to pastel to oil to, you know, just all over. And asked about that, and he said, Well, oh, you're bliss, and everything seems to work out. I was like, yeah, if you're, if you're as good as you as this artist, you know, you could do that. But I think there's a point there where, where it's like, this is the investigation that I am looking at, and it's really hard to be patient with it. And you know, the growth, both in career and personally, is not linear. There are dead ends. Some things work out, some things don't and, you know, you have to be willing to change things up. You know, the pandemic showed that to all of us. You know, that's what really got me to wake up and start like, oh, I need to build a newsletter. My gallery is all shut. And then I realized, like, I can have more ownership of my own career with that. So now I have this. I really work hard to have great relationships with my galleries, but galleries, in the way the art world works right now, for most people, is a piece of the puzzle. It's not the whole thing.

Olya Konell 1:18:14

So I love that this. I just want

Angela Agosto 1:18:17

to ask you one thing, because I noticed, like you say, you write, you you do plays, but you don't have that, any of that on your site. Because somebody was asking, Where can they catch your next play this summer and stuff like that. So I was looking, do you have, do you post about it? Do you have another site for it? Or, because I am, and I thought maybe in your link tree, you would have it listed there, but you don't. So I was just curious about, no, I mean, it's just I,

Aaron Schuerr 1:18:41

and I thought about, like, the writing, the Well, I mean, I've written some articles on, I don't know, maybe some of my website can't remember. And I

Angela Agosto 1:18:52

looked, and I was like, I don't see anything on there. Yeah, I'm really

Aaron Schuerr 1:18:55

bad at not market, not marketing, any of that stuff,

Angela Agosto 1:18:58

newsletters. Maybe

Aaron Schuerr 1:19:03

occasionally, if anybody wants to email me, if they want to see some samples of my articles, I definitely could send that. And then there's poetry that I've performed. I mean, email me and I can send you that stuff. That's an area that I've thought about, like, okay, maybe I need to start figuring out that marketing world. Yeah, well,

Olya Konell 1:19:23

you know, and I would even say, I wouldn't think of it in the context of, like, adding more work to your plate, but like, if you just, if you just publish an article, maybe add a page in on your site that just says something, and then, like, just link to it, and

Angela Agosto 1:19:39

maybe on the in either about section or maybe just a separate little category, navigation, writing links here, other artistic menu or avenues, or whatever you want to say, and then maybe that if you list everything else, perfect, yeah,

Olya Konell 1:19:55

If you need help, I'll work on that. Get in touch with

Angela Agosto 1:19:58

people to talk to. Talk

Olya Konell 1:20:00

to you, because that would be cool. And I've had several, by the way, there were several comments in chat, so as we kind of are landing the plane here, I wanted to note there were several comments further on, of people that said, yes, please start a Patreon. They actually had gone out and looked for you on Patreon to see if you were on there and you weren't kind of bummed out before this. So that's encouragement.

Aaron Schuerr 1:20:21

Thank you. See, this is what I'm doing here. Is, like, I figured I'll come on here and I'm, like, gonna crowdsource my, yeah, my career, like, where I go from here? All right, everybody,

Angela Agosto 1:20:36

By the way, Aaron, do have any contact info or sign up for your newsletter. Contact Info that'll they'll email you. So I shared that with them as well, and

Olya Konell 1:20:42

I will share, like any comments directed to you, any whatever from the chat. So if you guys are still here, if you want me to pass something on, Aaron, drop it in the chat, I will forward that to him, and in all make sure. And then same thing, you can subscribe to his newsletter. I want to ask something I kind of to as we land the plane, if there was, like, one piece of advice that you could leave us with, you know, like, if there was one thing someone could take away from today's conversation, what would that be? What would you want them to take home?

Aaron Schuerr 1:21:18

Um, you know, I think I've said it just be honest and with with yourself and with your exploration. Be patient with growth. In terms of if I was going to talk to my younger self, in terms of just marketing, is keep better track of the people that you connect with that buy your work, because it took me a long time to start actually keeping track of of people. And you know, I think that was some missed opportunities over the years. Yeah, and, and if you are a landscape person and go through the trouble to paint outside, not even if that's not the work that you show or frame, because if you want to learn everything, it's, it's outside, it's, you know, there's a lot of control. So, like, if I think about what am I trying to achieve, here is my painting about control. So have a photograph. I can copy it. I can be in control. Or is it about expression and communication? When I'm out painting on location, I am expressing my experience of a place, not the topographical details of a place, but how I experience it, and that's what connects us. Yeah, is, is our experiences are you know, you're sharing your story through pain.

Olya Konell 1:22:55

That is such good advice. Gosh, I on. No, I we could go on and on, and this could go longer, but I honestly think guys, if you did not get your question answered from Aaron, go follow him, DM him, comment on his post, ask your questions. Maybe attend his workshop, or, you know, hopefully he sets up his Patreon, you could

Aaron Schuerr 1:23:16

even Yeah, you got me inspired. Now.

Olya Konell 1:23:20

Get your username. Just create the username and be like it start out with the free because people can, then can convert when you start. Because, like, you can set your own tiers and just post a little intro video, like, just set up your camera, talk on it, get that out there.

Angela Agosto 1:23:35

She did. She actually mentioned you, and she did, like, a little the $5 tier, just to kind of connect with people, because her, especially during the pandemic, and she continued it,

Olya Konell 1:23:46

yeah, I'm sorry, who is this?

Angela Agosto 1:23:47

Susan Lyon.

Aaron Schuerr 1:23:50

Susan Lyon, oh, right, yeah. I talked to her a little bit adore.

Angela Agosto 1:23:56

Susan Lyon mentioned, you. She mentioned in our last webinar she love’s you.

Aaron Schuerr 1:24:00

Yeah, yeah, she's just the best she is. She truly Yeah. And that actually brings up, like, one other, you know, just a quick thought on growth, and in spending that time looking at other artists and not just, not just looking at other artists as and, you know, I really love this artist, but, but saying like, which paintings of the artists do you really love, and what is it about those paintings that resonate with you, because that will help you understand your own your own growth and your own

Angela Agosto 1:24:33

work? I love that we've mentioned before, where somebody says, Oh, find, find your, you know, your sort of somebody that you can mentor with, or just somebody that you follow and inspire. But I love that you said that detail, like, look at a painting and exactly, you know, kind of think about it.

Olya Konell 1:24:47

Why do

Aaron Schuerr 1:24:48

the artists, the artists that I really love, it's not necessarily all their I might not love all their paintings, because if they're they're really pushing, you know, they might be you. Are pushing in a different different directions, with different different paintings. And so just just being, being able to articulate, like, what is it about, you know, that one that just makes like, hits me hard,

Olya Konell 1:25:11

yeah, but, and that's true for also other activities, like, what is it that that person is doing that you connect with? So, like, if you have it like, bring your example, like, I love that you're doing this whole writing, acting, you know, you're combining it like that is just so freaking cool. Like, I love the brain and how the brain works. And just, I can only imagine the the amount of electrical activity going on in that little circle of people standing there as all the electrons are firing and and we know that there the Heart Math Institute did work that, you know, all that's connected your heart's a battery. It extends the energy field, extends three feet outside your body in all directions. A horse is a horse is a lot bigger, different animals, different critters. You know, we all have that. So when you're grouped together and you're having that moment, oh gosh, I'm sure it's fantastic. That's why it works for you. So that's the magic. Yeah, that is the magic. But, yeah, it's, you know, this has been inspiring and helpful, and I'm going to after this, I'll send you an email, and I'm going to share some of those ideas and comments and questions people had, and this gives you some more inspiration, or, you know, feels for what it is that you decide to do next. And thank you, Dave, for everything you've shared today.

Aaron Schuerr 1:26:33

Yeah, no, thank you. It's really It's always really fun just to get to share the geek out with fellow artists. So much.

Angela Agosto 1:26:45

I shared the BoldBrush link because I know you were in our on our BoldBrush show with Laura as well, so I shared that link just so that they can see or hear the podcast.

Olya Konell 1:26:52

Yeah, great. And I'll include all of your event links to in our follow up email, so if anybody missed it, and they'll have it and I yeah, we'll hopefully have you back some time in the future, and we'll get get to celebrate and hear the progress of what, yeah, hopefully,

Aaron Schuerr 1:27:10

you know, have all my articles up there, get more of that stuff out there. It's

Olya Konell 1:27:17

cool, I mean, and I yeah, I mean, it's cool. People want to hear it and they want to see it. So I kudos to you for embarking on that well. Thank you everybody that has held on. And Thank you Aaron. And I hope everybody has an inspiring and creative rest of their week.

Angela Agosto 1:27:39

And until next time, we'll be back next month, the recording will be up next week. Yes, yes, thank you to everybody for joining us.

Olya Konell 1:27:43

Thank you Take care and thank you for joining us on BoldBrush Live. Bye, bye.

Creatively,

Clint Watson
BoldBrush Founder & Creativity Fanatic

PS - This email may be too long for some email programs. We suggest you watch/read it on the web by clicking the button below.

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Olya Konell 00:00

So I'm going to go ahead and get us started with some announcements. And first of all, welcome to BoldBrush life, which is a free artist webinar, just a chance for us to get together and learn from each other. And today we have a very exciting guest, and I just love her energy already, Susan Lyon, and I'll introduce her on here in just a moment. And we have Angela Augusto, who is our Artist Relations Director, and something that we like to do, just because people always ask, I get this question a lot, is, who's BoldBrush, and what do they do? I'll just run through this. BoldBrush is, we're a company. Our goal is to inspire artists, to inspire the world, and the way we do that is we offer artists free and paid resources. So this webinar, we do this every month. We're going to break for December, January. We'll pick up again at the end of January next year. We have a free podcast, we have a free newsletter. We offer just a lot of free resources on our site, boldbrush.com that you could learn about the just be inspired with for creativity, because creating good art is step one. You know to be inspired. And then you know, once you've created the work, you've met other like minded artists, we want to provide you with the tools to share your art with the world through your own website. And we do that with Faso websites, which is the system that Clint built from the ground up, and you could learn more by visiting faso.com or artful Squarespace by Faso. So we've partnered to offer Squarespace sites at a very discounted rate. Now, the one thing I will mention here, and I don't know how much time. I'll have to go into detail. But both of these were offering a huge sale right now. So this is a holiday promo. You can get a, you know, a Faso site, a gold one. What was the total on that? Angela and 228,

Angela Agosto 01:55

the gold one at the silver prize, yeah. So you can get a special probably next week on that,

Olya Konell 02:00

yeah, so, and there's information about that in your emails. And then, if you, maybe you're you teach workshops, or, like Susan, she has both, she's a Faso and and a Squarespace site connected. You can do a Squarespace site. And Squarespace right now for the advanced plan is like $1,600 a year with Faso. You can get it for two years for 600 bucks, and that's their best plan. You get access to the BoldBrush circle of marketing, which is where we have all of our tools and resources for our customers to everything from an art marketing calendar to ask for a critique, a place to, you know, just ask a question. Look for resources, watch these replays, all of that good stuff. And I know Angela is going to drop some links in the chat. And after this, if you just have a question, you can respond to any of the webinar emails, and I will help get you to somebody who can explain a little bit more. And you can do a free trial with both of those, as long as you can activate before the end of the year, you can get that promo pricing. So sorry about the spiel. I wanted to get it out before we got into all of the fun. We don't do this very often, so we just like to get that out there. All right, and I'm going to go ahead and bring our featured guest on so let's go ahead and spotlight here. Susan, welcome good. So I'm sure most of you know who Susan is and you are. Maybe you've taken one of her workshops, and maybe you have, maybe you're one of her Patreon members, or you watch her on YouTube or Instagram. You do a lot and and so I want to just kind of give you the microphone and have you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Susan Lyon 03:53

Wow. Okay, yeah,

Olya Konell 03:55

just tell us, you know what, just enough to summarize who you are, what, what, what you do. And then we'll kind of jump into all of that. Okay,

Susan Lyon 04:04

um, well, I am, I mean, a fine artist. I also teach art. Um, I'm married to artist Scott Burdick. It's funny, how many people would not know that we're married. It's, you know, I always, always get a kick out of that, because we both have different last names and stuff. So So Scott Burdick, if you go to my website, Susan lyon.com, Scott and I share it, which is probably pretty rare for you guys, but we're like, why not just share it? Because we're like, so tied together. So you can see my work and Scott's work on that website. And we grew up like Chicago, went to art school in Chicago, moved to North Carolina, got in the late 90s, just because, and this is something that we'll probably talk about, is like, Yeah, can you make a living at art? And it, I mean, and when we lived in Chicago, I mean, we lived month to month. I mean, it was like, you had to make enough money to pay your rent. And we. Couldn't travel, and we never went out to eat. And we really our dream was to be able to go on trips. So all of a sudden, people always ask me, why did you choose North Carolina? And I like, I don't really have a reason. It was some kind of inspiration download. I had been listening to the radio or NPR one day, and I remember hearing some program about, oh, one of the best places to retire is North Carolina. Scott, I never been to North Carolina, so we're like, oh, okay, gosh, you know. And I had this vision of, like, getting a house with, like, you know, be able to build a studio on it, instead of our apartment, where, you know, one had the dining room and one had the living room, and we had to eat in bed and all that stuff. So we, you know, moved down to North Carolina to save money and and we knew that then we could actually not have to put money towards rent. We could put money towards a house, and we could do trips, and because that was our passion. And so we moved down here, and because our business, we never made a living, really, where we lived, like, even in Chicago, it was too hard to make a living at, like, a gallery in Chicago. Um, we always had to send paintings in other states. And so it didn't matter where we lived. And I think that's probably one of the one things that I say to people, are you willing to move? Which is a tricky one. It's a very sensitive subject. When someone says, How do you make a you know, I just got an email, like, literally yesterday, a young artist who wanted to have get advice. And, you know, I was trying to, you know, say the things about, don't get in debt. I was trying to say the things about, you know, the basic stuff, I guess, you know, paint, what you're passionate, and, and, but I also said one of the main things is just don't have high overhead. It that's going to kill your kill your business. It's going to kill you if you have to worry about paying your rent, if you, if like, you have to take jobs that you hate, if you have to, like, go get a part time job. I mean, there's all these things that are going to stop your momentum of being a fine artist, if you have to worry so much about money, and if you're willing to move. And sometimes when I say things like that to people, you know, you number one thing they'll say is, well, I can't move because my my family's here. And then this the discussion ends, and I go, I mean, I get it. I get it. My family lives in Chicago. It's but I knew that I could not be a fine artist and paint what I wanted to paint if I still lived in Chicago, I just wouldn't be able to and, I mean, you could probably become a full time teacher, but then you wouldn't be able to be someone who actually painted what you wanted to paint, and not just, you know, maybe being told what you should paint, or like paint what you think will sell. And that was probably one of the biggest things, Scott and I both have this personality that, you know, we always think we could make more money. We make enough money. You know, we make enough money. We know we could make more money if we did workshops and full time classes, if we painted, you know, as artists, we all had those paintings that were very popular. We all call had them, no matter what subject matter it is that one painting where, you know, more than one person wanted it, and then even one person might come up to you and say, Oh, would you do something like that for me? And you go, Okay, wow, I get it like people are liking this subject, or people are liking this the way I did it, and then I could do it 20 times. But would it fulfill me? And that's it just wouldn't fulfill us. We just would not be able to do it. So we knew that we had to live in a place that we just didn't have overhead. And so we live in North Carolina. We live it kind of in a rural area, but we live close enough to a small city, so that, you know, we could get models, you know, restaurants, all that type of stuff, and paint with friends. But we also know that we can, you know, if we don't sell a painting for six months, we'll be fine. So that's the number one thing, is that, do you have a cushion? Like, don't, like, that's it you have. You know, it's all about being incredibly frugal. And can you be frugal? So here I am. I'm lecturing. I'm going on and on, and I I don't even know if I'm answering this stuff.

Olya Konell 09:34

I'm like, Oh, this I love, actually, these are real topics, real problems that we have as as artists, as we you know, whether we like it or not, then, you know, we love to paint. We are these creative beings all this, but at the end of the day, we have to pay our bills. We need shelter, we need food. Yeah, you know, how are we going to make that happen to sustain ourselves? And it's just a reality that we're faced with, which oftentimes is what squash is. Dreams and what stunts talent is, because people don't know how to get around that. And I, and a lot of the questions I have on my list is specifically, you know, geared towards that. And I definitely want to dive even deeper into it. One of the things, and I want to tackle this early on, just in case we go over by a few minutes, or somebody has to leave early, you do a lot of different things, and you've mentioned a few. So you offer and I'll let me pull it up on my screen so people can see. So if you go to Susan's website, whoops, here we go. So Susan and Susan lyon.com and then we've shared the link. You have a Patreon. So if you're an artist on a budget and you want to learn how to paint better, you want some, you do a lot of demos, and you actually have some handy that you've done, like laying around. We were just talking about this,

Susan Lyon 10:57

yeah, you were saying because I was telling that I have two studios. So anybody that has followed me or watched any of the videos or YouTube is you might have, this might be a new studio for you. This is where my home is. And so I was like, so some of the demos, oh, you're trying to get glare. So this was a demo I did in Yorkshire, so I didn't actually film it, but this was for a workshop. And, oh, this is it. This is one I filmed.

Olya Konell 11:24

Do you sell those two, maybe collectors, to smaller pieces? This one is

Susan Lyon 11:29

actually being sold to the model models mother. And this one is, this was a demo that I filmed. So Scott and I, you know, like a lot of people, during when all of a sudden, 2020 when everything happened, we had had tons of shows and trips, everything stopped, just like everybody. And I'm the type of person, probably one of the, I'm going to say, probably one of my best traits is I don't embarrass easily. So I, you know, when everything stopped, I had never even saw, heard about really Patreon. I think I had heard once somebody named Patreon. What is that? And I just, well, I'm just going to start one with my phone. You know, I didn't know anything about editing. I knew nothing. And anyone that watches my earlier videos, I try to laugh at myself. I love it. I love it. I don't, I don't edit out the bloopers. So sometimes I make that's the best, yeah. So anyways, I try not to to, like, glossify my life, right? And so I really thought my, my biggest dream is if, instead of charging a lot of money, because some people for subscriptions, can charge 30, maybe even 50, $60 a month sometimes. And I was like, No, I want people in other countries. I want to charge I want to get $5 for $5 a month. We'll give you information. We will give you you can we'll meet over live streams, like once a month you can ask us questions. I wanted to be able to do that because I, you know, I thought, why do you know information should be, yeah, in a way. I mean, it shouldn't be hoarded by people who just go to expense schools. So if anything, I thought might if I could be known for somebody who says, Wow, the you know, I can get so much information for $5 a month, and I could have like, and I could, hopefully, you know, I could get hundreds of people for $5 a month. I would rather have that than, you know, 50 people for a lot more. So that's

Olya Konell 13:38

and I love that I heard this quote, The secret to success is to serve the find a way to serve the most people. And not only that, you also have the your YouTube, which I think we shared the link, but we'll share again, where you a lot of times, you'll create record a demo from start to finish, and you'll just share it there, along with your fun artist diaries that I love, which is honestly so I'm I did not go to art school. I do art more for fun, and I occasionally take on commissions here and there. And what got me into painting was watching other artists type of diaries and vlogs and things on YouTube early, early on, like many years ago. And so by you putting these out, you're inspiring some young person, somebody who's never even thought about picking up a paintbrush to maybe try, which I love that

Angela Agosto 14:25

I just wanted to add that I love that you did that during the time when everybody was stuck at home and struggling and probably were yearning for that connection and such a low price, just to kind of get people to be creative, because we all know that that's good for the soul, and so I just love that you did that that was, Oh,

Susan Lyon 14:42

thank you. Yeah, that

Olya Konell 14:44

is amazing. And that's part of why I wanted to highlight it is, is going back to how to make money. One of the things that you've always says, you've always said in like, prior conversations, is, like, you know, having it's coming up with passive income. Options, whether it be prints of your best work, or having something super affordable, you know, and what I love about the Patreon price points that you've set, You're so sensitive to be to being an artist that didn't have a lot of money, that you want to make sure that those artists or anyone, anywhere, can get the information or education that they need without having to, you know, choose between eating lunch and you know what I mean? Yeah, so I need that.

Susan Lyon 15:29

Thank you. It's well, because I think back to when I was starting off. It was in the early 90s, and there was no Internet, and the only way that you could see art was through art magazines. So every month you would just wait to go to like, you know, the the arts, the book store, and just, you know, flip through them and hoard these, you know, magazines and cut out pictures and or, you know, if you had the money, you could go to a museum. But in general, you were limited to that. And you were limited to the idea that somehow you would hope a magazine would do an article on you, or, you know, that would be like the ultimate that somehow you would be spotlighted, or somehow you would even get to be in a gallery. Whereas nowadays, you know, through our own websites, through social media, we do have ultimate control. You know, we have more power than galleries have now. And so that's something that you know, when people ask us, like, how do you make a living, or how do you get in galleries, it's a different time. It really is. It's, I say, try and be if you can be your own boss, and because you can't put all your eggs in one basket. You can't just hope that galleries are going to sell your work. Galleries are not our number one income anymore, you know, we can. We would not be able to stay afloat if it was only galleries. We have to hustle, you know. We have to figure out, like, we'll test a gallery in one city and, you know, do they sell enough? Or do we feel like, you know, galleries nowadays too, you realize, like, the biggest ones have like, 200 artists, like they literally have that many artists in their roster. So are you going to be hung? Are you going to be put in the bath? Are they only going to be hanging one of your pieces instead of the five that you sent them? So these are all the things that you have to think about, because it doesn't guarantee sales just by being in a gallery, because they're gonna put their biggest sellers. And if you start off at like prices at like anywhere from like 500 to $2,000 you know, do they make enough money off of you to promote you? You know? Whereas in the olden days, like galleries used to like have shows once a year, and they used to promise you ads, and they used to promise you things, and you would save up paintings, and it was win, win. Whereas nowadays, you know, it's like, galleries are much more particular about who they want in, and they're also, you know, they really want to do 5050, and they're always trying to get artists to, like, sign these contracts. And, I mean, I hate to say it, but I would not recommend that like Do not sign these contracts that say you have 5050, and then you have, you know, do you have to pay for shipping, there and back, all of this stuff that artists feel like, Oh, well, I have to sign these things. I have to do this. And you really don't. You really don't, if you are willing, you know, and that's not every artist, you know, I'm not, I'm not great. In fact, we were talking before we even went live. Is that, you know, I make tons of mistakes. I just joking Angela that I'm constantly emailing her saying, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. I screwed up this. Could you help me? Why is this happening, you know? Because I, you know, I, you know, I know it just enough, just enough to get by. Scott's better at it, but he also just wants to paint. We are two people that just want to paint. We do not want to think about Instagram every day. We do not want to think about promotion, even though we have to. We're not great at it, you know, but it's like, are you willing to maybe get a friend or somebody who is an Instagram to help you out? Like, I do have a friend that I have started to ask, like, once a month, just to say, Hey, could you come to my studio and could you help me look at what I'm doing, and as an outsider, tell me like, is it clear? Do you understand? Are the links easy to read my descriptions? Are, you know, because as artists, sometimes we just maybe do a little bit too quick, or we don't clarify enough. Is because we want new people. We want people who are maybe getting into art for the first time, and we want them to understand how we're describing things. So that would be something good for people to do is get an outsider to read everything look at it as new, or do they have questions? But there are a lot of people out there nowadays who will could help you, even with graphics and all that stuff that. I really do need help. And I was even saying to them that I need to get better at my newsletters, you know. I mean, you know, how do you describe them? How do you do the graphics to grab people? Because, you know, I'm just concentrating on how to actually draw a face, you know, I don't really know. You know, we all have our specialties, you

Olya Konell 20:18

know, yes, yeah, when I what I love, what you're sharing right now, and I want to highlight what you just said. You admit, and I admit we are all. We all can admit there's things that we do that we're not the best at, but the fact that you are doing it Done is better than perfect. The fact that you're actually doing it, you're, you know, let's just say you're going to if you're something that stresses over the the perfection of your post, or the perfection of your newsletter, the perfection of your blog, blog, whatever it is that you are attempting to do, if you stress over the perfection, it will get you nowhere. And zero is not good. Versus Hey, 50 people saw it and they loved it, and now they're fans of your work. They're fans of your teaching. Then it goes to 100 and it just kind of snowballs. And the other thing I want to highlight this is working so well and so many artists are so afraid that they have to be like a saint on camera, no, be yourself. Like, why people love when you walk into a thrift store and you see a painting like, yeah, it could be pretty. It might more of a decoration, but until you know who painted it, and you know their personality, and you get to actually know them, that painting starts building in value, you know, only after you know who the artist is. So like as artists, it's okay to be a little silly, to be a little quirky, to have your bloopers. You know, in a perfect obviously tasteful. Everything's tasteful, but

Susan Lyon 21:44

I get it. I ask you so much. I wish that's like deep seated in people, this idea of being scared of judgment. Yeah, it is. It's something that I talk with people about, you know, about perfectionism, that everything has to be so perfect. And I guess to me, like I got rid of that. I never had it. I mean, I know that I that's one of my traits. I've never was a perfectionist, almost to a fault. I mean, probably try to work for you. Well, no. I mean, you know, everybody's at it a little bit differently, like for me, sometimes people say, could you give us a description for a painting? Anything, right? They'll say, and I'm like, oh, okay, you know. And I'll just type something out, and it could be completely a run on sentence or whatever. And I'm like, here, I'll tell people, please, just edit it. And I'll ask Scott, and I'll say, Scott, you know, they want us to, like, write a description of something. Scott will take two hours, and I feel guilty. And I go, Scott, come on. Two hours like, you know. But he just is like, wow, but I wanted to make it good. And I go, Well, there's the difference, you know. No,

Angela Agosto 22:51

were you ever earful? Just wanted to say of you know how you started filming yourself, and were you ever scared to get in front of the cameras? I know a lot of people tell us they're scared, especially that first time. I know I always give some good advice about go practice in front of a mirror. But was that like that for you as well? Susan,

Susan Lyon 23:07

I've never been scared about getting in front of the camera. I do know that you need to look towards a light. I am literally looking towards a little mini ring light. Now, if I do not have that ring light, because a lot of times I actually wear glasses, but I have guts, you know, when I'm this close to a monitor, I don't need them, but, like, if I'm normally, I wear glasses, but yeah, like, I can look like a monster, you know? So there are times when you, you know, you see yourself on camera, and you're like, What is going on here? But you good lighting is important. But I So, oh, I'm going to show you. So you could you see this? I love that. Yeah. So this is like, you could get these things for like, 20 or 30 bucks on Amazon. So sometimes when I do need to to promote something, right, I will put that on a stand. And it's better for me than trying to to hold myself, you know, because when you're holding your phone, to be honest, it could be slightly too close to your face.

Olya Konell 24:05

Yeah, actually distorts your face too, which exactly like

24:10

shaking if you're not, you know, holding and your hand

Susan Lyon 24:12

gets tired. So if you could get one of those inexpensive, like, poles with a little camera thing, then you could be, like, four or five feet away. You're gonna look better. You just are. So those are things that, yeah, I've noticed, but I was never nervous about being on camera. And I, I don't know if that's just the way we're made or what now and now, like, we are. We were talking about how, like, I just started filming videos with my phone. I mean, if you guys, anyone who's on my Patreon will see the very, very first ones. You know, they maybe it's not the best lighting, maybe this or that, but I will say it in the titles, okay, sorry, guys, you know, sorry that, you know, is a little jiggling right here. Sorry, this just, you know, I'll laugh at it, but you will then see a progression of me getting better. I'll get better over time, and even

Olya Konell 24:59

i. That is the only way to get better. There's actually a mentor of mine. His favorite quote was always, like, your first 50 videos will be your worst 50 videos. Just like your first 50 paintings will be your worst 50 paintings, like or your sketches, anything, you just have to get it out of the way. The quicker you get it out of the way, the easier it becomes. And when it comes to talking on camera for everybody that says, Well, I don't feel comfortable talking on camera if you're willing to try. I have a stutter. I spent years in speech therapy. I was the mouse. I never talked. I mean, to see the fact that I'm on camera right now talking, you host, I could have, if you told me 15 years ago that I would be doing, could, that I could even do this, I would have thought you were nuts and had too much to drink too early in the day. Like, seriously,

Angela Agosto 25:49

I bet people appreciate when you put yourself out there and, like, then you were saying that you kind of like, oh, sorry. But I think that they probably connect because you're being real and you're saying, oh, yeah, I'm not perfect. This is where you're almost making a little light of the situation. And I feel like, okay, you know what I can do this too. Is probably where the inspiration you're giving out to other artists who are favorite

Susan Lyon 26:09

people are people who can laugh at themselves. Yeah, those are the people I want to hang out with. I want to hang out with people that can just like, you know, do something and just go, Oh my God, and just fall over laughing. Yeah, I mean, those are the people that make you feel comfortable, because then there's not this uptightness. But one thing I wanted to mention about that was I had to do a introduction promo for, you know, the Patreon site, they want you to do that, and I get it. But you know, when you try and do that yourself, I could tell I was a little, you know, self conscious, right? And and there is this dynamic between husband and wife, like Scott has tried to come in here, and I could tell I was self conscious. I got a friend, so when I had my friend with a phone, you know, and what it was was I wasn't looking directly, kind of like a 60 Minutes interview. I'm not looking directly at the camera. She's, you know, she had the phone on a tripod, she sat to the left of it, and I looked at her, and she just asked me questions, so then we can edit it down, because I'm looking towards her, which is totally fine, you know, slightly off, just like a normal TV interview. And she would say, Hey, tell me, you know, what do you offer here? And I would say, Well, I offer this, you know, sometimes I'd bloop up or whatever, and she would just ask it again, and I would do it again. And so those could be ways of having a friend do it and not just look. I do think that looking directly sometimes at a camera can be a little bit intimidating, but if you have someone there with you and it's more conversational, it really can come off nicely. Yeah, no,

Olya Konell 27:48

ABS, I can't talk Absolutely. See, there you go. It sneaks out. Occasionally. I had a couple questions in the chat, and also on my list that kind of overlaps, I want to ask it. So, folks are trying to understand, you know, how do you make money from Instagram or YouTube? And I want to kind of guess. My guess is, you use these as your funnels. You meet people on Instagram and YouTube, right? So you're meeting them virtually, and then you you offer them Patreon or a you'll you also do one on one

Susan Lyon 28:27

critiques, yeah, mentoring. So through Patreon, you have just a basic critique level, but then I have a one on one well, I'll meet people like this, you know, over zoom and we talk about their art. But how do you make money off of Instagram? Well, there are ways. I mean, you can get brand things, like, you can get brand endorsements, like, if you're an artist and you absolutely love a certain canvas or a certain paint, and you you are always talking about every time you post, I just love this canvas. It really works well for me. And you tag them, and you have done multiple posts talking about how much you love this canvas, they're going to find out about it. And so now it's up to them if they want to partner with you, but that's a way of doing it. And how you know people who are celebrities do it, you can. I mean, there's all kinds of other ways that you can. You google how to make money off Instagram, by like, reels and all kinds of things. I do not make money off of Instagram. It is definitely about word of mouth. It is definitely about just people seeing what I'm doing, and if they like what I'm doing, they might want to come take a class. They like, you know, like I was just noticing in the chat all these people from Arizona, and I was going to say, Hey, Scott and I are going to be in Tucson in February. So there's a big show at Medicine Man gallery that we're going to fly out to, and if you're just an hour away, please come and meet us right middle of February in medicine man. And so those are the things that Instagram is great about. Like, you know, maybe they're coming to my area. Oh, I'm going to go see them. And then that's the type of. Thing now YouTube, I don't make any money off of, I started it completely out of Scott and I've had a pretty interesting life. Like, I think back to, you know, some of the trips we had and some of the artists we met, and I go, wow, God. I wish that had been recorded, you know, just like, just like all of us, wish we could have been in the room with Sergeant, or wish we could have been in the room with, you know, Georgia, O'Keeffe or somebody, and just been like, how did she sound? What did her studio look like? And I just then became compelled with, I want to do that. I know these. I know some interesting people. I go on trips that could be interesting people who don't have the ability, health wise or money wise to travel to a museum, maybe I'll show them what it looks like, you know, to like, Hey, this is what a sergeant looks like on a wall come, you know. And so that was what I felt compelled about, because a lot of the people I do mentor are people who can't afford to 1000s of dollars to go do a workshop. I get it. There are different tiers, you know? I mean, it's expensive, so I love knowing that it's like, it just, it's like a democratic process platform, you know. So I started YouTube for that. Now, you know,

Olya Konell 31:15

I so I don't make any money off of that. It's pure, but you can potentially and so I actually want to point, point something up. So I have a little plug in that shows you, like, how many views per hour of videos getting. You have videos from five months ago that are still getting, like, three or four and a half of views per hour, 13 views per hour. I don't even look at that. That's yeah, but what I'm saying is, like, that's what, what's cool about YouTube versus Instagram? Instagram Instagram is more of a buffet, and you're always refreshing the information or reposting the same thing periodically, because it gets cold, nobody will see it down the line, you know. So you put something new out. YouTube is great if you are interested in sharing your work or sharing your process, or just your life as an artist, and it will sit there online forever, until you hide it, and it could potentially continue getting views year after year after year. And you

Susan Lyon 32:09

could, there are serious people who dedicate and they could, you could post once or twice a week, and then what happens is people become invested in you, like there are people I follow on YouTube right? And I think, did they? Did they post something today? Like, I want to know their journey. I'm not as consistent, just because I have other things happening. And I thought, I did think, Well, maybe if someday I make a tiny bit of money off of YouTube, well then I could, I could put more time into it. To me, it's just the love of sharing, but you can. There's all different kinds of ways you can make money on YouTube. And I agree with you. I think sharing for free also, I'm sure we've all had this that when somebody gives a lot away for free, as there's something within the human soul that goes I want to support them. So if there's, you know, having a video, if they have a book, if they have something, even what I'm going to buy that book, you know, I want them to keep doing what they're doing, because they're enriching my life. So these are things to think about, yeah,

Angela Agosto 33:15

like, I have a college daughter, she just graduated, but she's also interested in in art, so I and she's like, I don't know if I want to pay. Just just graduated for something that's not in my path, my call. And I said, why not? What if this is something you want to do? So I told her, a lot of our artists have YouTube videos on how to she's like, but I don't have I said, you don't have to pay. You do their stuff, and then if you love it, well then the money you were probably going to you're probably going to save a lot of money, but you're paying for a class. I said, you can pay and subscribe and you learn. So she's been doing that's how I got my mother, too. After, you know, she retired, she was kind of bored, so I told her, go to YouTube. And now she she paints. I love that. Yeah, a few years, and she follows this lady. She goes, I sign up for a class, and I'm like, good for you, yeah, students just, can just get you so many things. And I think for artists, it's important to have some kind of a presence. I love that you say you give all these things away, but I bet that a lot of students probably saw you there and then went. I want to sign up

Olya Konell 34:08

for her workshop with her Patreon. Yeah, yeah. Well, and somebody was asking, how do you find collectors? Well, collectors watch and collectors, you know, you so I want to back up a little bit. So I want to, I forgot to mention this. This is really important. I say this a lot social media and YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all of these different platforms. Think of them as on television, you have different TV channels, right? So you have these different TV channels, right? But now they're in the pocket of every human being. And then you also have places in real life. You have galleries, restaurants, cafes, museums, like these are all places where we can go and meet people, and we can do it online, and we can do it offline, and it's good to do both, and it's a mix of both. And in the past, it used to be all offline, because that's the only option we had. Now with the internet, we have all of these other opportunities. And. So when you choose to put your art on Instagram or on YouTube or on pay or anywhere, you're basically for free putting your stuff on some TV channel. Like, think about it that way, you're giving people an opportunity to find you you may not make money on that channel, kind of like when an advertiser or a TV show puts a TV show or ad out. They only make money when people see the ad. Decide they want to go support them, and then they do it. So they could go watch your YouTube video, but then they could sign up for a Patreon a collector could stumble across one of your artist diaries and fall in love with your personality and work and want to purchase a painting that they happen to spot in the background. You know, YouTube is free. It is exactly and same thing with Instagram. It's like a, it's a, you switch the channel. You go to Instagram, there's an, it's a different place, different maybe people, you know, different demographics.

Susan Lyon 35:53

People ask about, how do you find collectors? I'm gonna say 80% or more, 80, 85% of our collectors are artists. You know, Wow, I love that. So, I mean, if you think about it, like people who adore art, look at art, you know, are the ones who take our workshops. Are the ones who, you know, like, join us or subscribe to us. Those are people because they're fascinated by art. They want to collectors and artists are in a collaboration. There's a relationship there. You know, collectors want to have an idea that they are actually making a difference. So they want reasons to support people. They want to like, be a part of your journey. So whenever artists I you know, whenever I talk to people and they are shy about putting their work up, they want have perfectionism or I also think that probably one of the number one things that is going to create a following is when someone can follow, can see you at one level, and you and you grow.

Angela Agosto 37:01

It's a story. It's a because

Susan Lyon 37:03

they see you get better or become more evolved, or become more who you are. They are like, I'm inspired, and it's inspiring. And I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna support them. I'm gonna like, donate, you know, I'm gonna like, buy something from them, or subscribe to them. Or it's like, we all have it, it's, it's just, you just need to share who you are and not like I said before. I just, I can't get embarrassed, you know, paintings too, like that. You know, I tried really hard on, and this is something I wanted to also say, is that, I mean, I I'm not exaggerating, eight out of 10 things that I work on probably don't get posted. They are exercises. They are they can be like demo things, or they can be something that I'm starting. And along the way, I find that, okay, it just wasn't working. Okay, try something new. Problem solve, start it again, and what happens is, I see people feel that when they start something, it has to turn into a product that can then make them money. But you can't think that way. It's not a good way to think. If you think everything you start is going to be at the end, you have a frame on it, it's like, we all have to, like, go, okay. You know, a lot of 80% of what I do stays in my studio or gets painted over. Anyone who watches my YouTube diaries, I will literally show them. Okay, I just painted over five canvases today. Oh, found eight more. Found eight more canvases. I'm, you know, painting over today. So it's just, I want the reality to be out there. You know, in fact, I was going to interview Scott because I, you know, I mentor people, and someone emailed me a couple days ago about, you know, we all have these things that like, why isn't it turning out right? You know, why is everything struggle? Will it ever get better? They always say, will it feel better later on? And I say, well, like anything the level, your level rises, but we always are striving for more excellence. So there's always going to be this idea that you can get better, and there's going to be good days and bad days. And Scott just a few days ago, I mean, I still marvel at how sensitive he can be, because he we all have issues with something, and mine is I'm very open about the fact that I can I feel like I can be value blind, like I have troubles, and that's why, when I teach, I'm always telling people to be more separate. You know, just keep your lights and your darks separate as long as possible, so that you can judge it better, whereas other people might teach it differently. And Scott's issue is that no matter what, no matter how hard he tries, every now and then, he'll get the alignment off, and he can't see it, you know? And I, I, he showed me a drawing that he had just finished for this show in Tucson, and he had just finished it. And I looked at it, I was like, I. Like, I was like, Scott, oh, you know. And I want to be sensitive, but I also have to tell him, like, I'm like, Scott, like, like, you see that this one is higher than the other? And he's like, no, no, I used a t square. I really tried to make sure. And I go, let's turn it upside down. And once he turned it upside down in his computer, he saw it, and he felt so deflated, he literally crushed down and said, I just want to give up. I want to give up and, you know, and I it's like, wow. People need to know this. People need to know that someone that they think does everything, even me, like I put him up on a pedestal. He is technically excellent. The thing about him is he's always just trying to be more exciting, more this, more that, that, you know, it's this energy of just always maybe thinking something isn't good enough, and I'm always just trying to get better. And he was so deflated. I mean, he went back, he fixed it, but it's like, yeah, we go through it. You could be painting for 30 years, but it's, it's this idea that there's not a backup plan, so you're in for the long haul

Olya Konell 41:07

well. And also going back to that question that the person asks you, will it ever get better? Will it ever get easier? It literally, this is like such a beautiful illustration of if you're in it for the destination, you're in it for the wrong reason. If you're in it for the journey of continually growing and evolving and continually getting better, you're in it for the you're going to enjoy your ride more, even with the good and the bad days. You know, you'll always feel continual accomplishments, continual goals, continual accomplishments,

Angela Agosto 41:38

the moments and all those good you know, you fix it. It's like, okay,

Olya Konell 41:42

I hear somebody saying, it's always helpful to hear that even the master struggle. Thank you. Susan, so, yes, yeah,

Susan Lyon 41:47

I was gonna, like interview him, because he likes to, he's honest about things and and I that, you know, I've known some famous artists that don't want to show that, and it breaks my heart in a way, because you realize, oh, wow, they can't show that. Like, I like, like, that's sad to me like you, because you wonder, like, the most being vulnerable or transparent I was about something will make you

Olya Konell 42:14

more popular, more human, more human. Like,

Susan Lyon 42:18

you know, and if you hide it, then there's always going to be a wall between you and the public. People will just always think that everything you do like maybe you're a genius, and so they'll never live up to it. But if you can realize that, yeah, they might have genius in them, but they have, you know, down days, they don't feel well, they're not inspired. There's all these things as being an artist that is never linear. It is some days you're inspired, some days you're not. I personally think that I know that painting with friends, painting in a group, just helps me so much. If I paint from photos too much I get stale. You know, I love painting from life, but then I also know that painting from life, my work can look can't get to that finish that I personally want sometimes. So I have to balance. I have to be alone, but I have to be with people. So, you know it's sometimes people will say, well, there's not an art group near me. And I'm like, well, then maybe you have to be the leader. I had to be the leader in my town. I had to start it, you know. And you have that, like, you have to, like, bite the bullet. You have to hire the model. Or sometimes, if money is tight, you get three or four or five friends, and you then say, okay, we're each going to post for each other for one hour or 45 minutes. So then you don't have to pay any money, but then you do your part with posing. And that could be where you start, but great, it's you have to. I think there's something about group energy. I think that there's this idea that, you know, if you see somebody do something and you like it, it taps into that idea of like, Oh, I like what they're doing. I, you know, I want to do that. Or you get inspired.

Olya Konell 44:06

Yes, there. There's also an a really So Harvard scientist did a lot of experiments about group activities, and she's considered the scientific mother of mindfulness. So when people are in the same room, concentrating on the same thing, meditating, yeah, there is, yeah. There is a measurable, there is something that is actually physically measurable, not woo woo, but a measurable energy, not in a woo, woo way, but something that can actually machine, yeah, I'm not gonna,

44:36

I'm not gonna let you say that. Yeah. Okay.

Susan Lyon 44:42

Yeah. Meditation, quietness. Sometimes, you know, I felt that for years, I struggled with understanding my intuition, I struggled with finding the flow. I do think that social media can desensitize us to who we are and. So, you know, I would get very, very down when I would think, how am I unique? Why I can't I seem to see what other artists are doing. I maybe I'll even try the materials they're using. Maybe I'll try a style that they're using and it's not working for me. So I feel completely a loser. And I used to think, well, they're in the flow. How do they know how to get to the flow? And I'm totally honest, the way to find your flow is silence. It is the only way that you will ever know what your thoughts are. Completely different from other people's thoughts are, is if you literally sit quiet and listen and listen, and it's not going to come overnight. It's not going to be the first time you do it. It could feel incredibly uncomfortable, but it's like, you can you hit rock bottom to where you go. Well, it's not working for me. It's this. Is not this. What I am doing is not working for me. I have to change. So I'm going willing, just like if people give up sugar or smoking or whatever, I am willing to sit in silence each day. Sometimes you could put on, you know, meditation music, but really it's the idea that you have to hear your own thoughts that are not other people's thoughts.

Olya Konell 46:18

Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, too much noise. There's way I agree with you. We do get desensitized. There's a lot of noise and and that isn't Yeah, that there's

Angela Agosto 46:29

a break from social media, because, like you said, Sometimes all they're posting is the good stuff, yeah. And you think they didn't mess up, they don't mess up, but when you post it, you do mess up. But then here's the finished product. It gives other people hope. And like you said, probably sitting there and thinking quietly by yourself, listening is going to help you decide what you want to do next. Or inspiration will come. Yeah, it will.

Susan Lyon 46:53

It's a shocking thing that you will get a thought, you'll get a notion. There'll be something that comes to you that you wouldn't have heard otherwise. So I just know that that was very important for me, because I used to talk with friends all the time, art friends, like, like, I don't know how to tap into my intuition. I don't know how do I do it like I feel like I want to, but I don't know how. And, you know, of course, the answer was in front of me, but it's like anything you just, you know, it's little by little, and then witnessing how you know your body or your mind doesn't want to do it, and then that's fine. Like, why doesn't my body or mind want me to sit with myself? Yeah? Silence. That's something to understand, you know. So, yeah, yeah,

Angela Agosto 47:39

I feel like I'm always going in. I've been trying to meditate for years, but I know that I have a problem just sitting still doing nothing. I always feel there's something waiting for me, but it's important. So I now do that, whether I'm reading something spiritual or and so I'm like, okay, maybe I'm just going to sit here so I'm getting there, and I feel like it's so important, because then I'm ready to listen to do. And now I can think, was that really that important? And we live in such a noisy world right now with social media at your fingertips. I know it mentioned earlier Olia that, you know, you literally have your phone and you have access to everything the world here, sometimes you need to put it away.

Olya Konell 48:16

It's interesting. It is, is definitely that balance and, you know, and then I know we talked about social media, we, you know, a little bit, but I also kind of want to bring it back, because you've mentioned some things. So I like to refer to something as an invisible marketing so, and I mentioned this before, we believe that artists marketing is everything that we do, online and offline, especially all of life's activities, so like meeting with other artists in your local group that you organized, you know, or going traveling, you know, you do a lot of traveling. So all of that, all of life's activities, give us an opportunity to share that we are an artist and then share our work. What I want to know is, what are some of the invisible, non social media things that you do that have helped you move the needle throughout the more recent years, like over the last five to 10 years. Well,

Susan Lyon 49:08

I mean, you know, it's funny, you sent me questions, and I was like, taking notes, and I'm trying to what would be an invisible

Olya Konell 49:16

thing, not a social media thing, you know? Yeah.

Susan Lyon 49:22

Gosh, you know it's, it's difficult to, I mean, I guess it's hard to know what comes up right now. I mean, the things that some from some of the questions that you asked me, I'll just kind of, I'm just going to say what some of the, you know, it's like, how do you engage? I'm going to just, I'm sorry, I know. I'm wondering if one of these answers will help you with that question, because, you know, it's like, how do you like spread out, but then also, right? What is not social media. So finding collectors like number one is, I think that being professional with keeping a list of collectors emails. Or addresses and engaging in them with them at least once a year. So, you know, there's nothing more important than a collector who gets a personal letter from someone we love that did their art and you saying, Thank you.

Olya Konell 50:13

I love that you

Susan Lyon 50:14

for supporting me. I remember you. You know I, you are, you know I thank you for helping me keep doing what I want to do. Other things that are strategies would be, you know, sometimes with art or something is like offering like a bundle, offering things like that for people you know, sometimes like, if somebody helps you out with subscribing to something, you can give them a small gift, or, you know, or a personal like, one on one. Like, if you know, depending on how much somebody supports you, there's always something that you can offer people. There's always, you know, just giving back to people who support you is really important. Offering free like, I offer free trials. You know, I was so happy when Patreon did that, because I always wanted to give free trials, but they just didn't have it in their platform yet. So now I can offer a free trial. Say, Hey, do you like me? Check it out. Binge, binge, everything we have, and then cancel. I'm totally fine with it, you know. But if you like what we have, well then maybe you'll, you know, help us out. One thing that I have noticed, that I think is so great, is I have recently, in the past year, decided to be much more proactive about entering every online show or competition that I can that I don't have to send the piece to. Oh, so anybody out there, there are two different there are two different websites that I recommend. Okay, so submit, show, submit.com, and jury arts services.com so these two sites are totally free, and what they are are you enter your information, they'll ask you, what are you interested in? Do you like landscape? Do you like pastel? Do you like figurative? You know, what do you want to be notified about? So I'm, I'm signed up with both, and each week, I get emails saying, hey, don't forget, you said you were interested in this particular thing. So then I could go on and I'll be like, Oh, it's an online show or competition that I don't have to send the piece to. But, you know, some some of them want you to become members, but there's so many out there that you don't even have to be a member. So those are the ones that I focus on.

Olya Konell 52:36

What was the second site I have show submit, what was the other one? Next one

Susan Lyon 52:40

is juried art services,

Olya Konell 52:43

juried art. I'm going to share these with the church, yeah, and

Susan Lyon 52:47

and so I have just entered online things every single month, and I've actually made money off of these things, because I can enter the same piece in multiple different shows, because I don't have to send them to them. There's just so many things like that that you could do. It just takes a little bit more time. It just takes, you know, just an hour out of your day to look these things up, put them on your calendar, remind yourself, get good images, all that thing. But then it, you know, takes me five minutes to enter another thing. Yeah, so that's just something I I recommend now, whenever you share images on Instagram or your website or anywhere, please give a paragraph of at least a backstory. Tell us like where you painted it, tell us the materials that you used. Tell us your emotional state when you did it, you know, were you cold? Were you tired? Were you frustrated? Were you happy? These simple little paragraph is going to be more engaging than just telling us the title size, you know, so it's just something that I recommend, is just a little bit of backstory, and you'll actually get more engagement. I think people will go, oh, wow, thanks for telling us that all those type of things. Yeah, don't be connected. Yeah, being consistent. I feel that, you know, like in like in art, you know, it's like coming to the studio every day. I don't have a backup plan. I know that this is my job. One thing that I do tell people is it's like, I remember the very first time I ever went to Richard Schmidt's house. Now, Richard Schmidt was, you know, me and Scott was, like, the guy we put up on the, you know, this pedestal, this like, guy, like, whoa. You know, he was the epitome what everyone wanted. So when I met him in Chicago when I was 19 years old, it was like, boy, this is a famous artist who literally makes a living at painting and is changing the way we see the world. Like there's literally before him and after him. And when the first time I went to his house, unapologetic, you walk into his Victorian house, you there's. Cute little living room, but then it opens onto a dining room, and that was his studio. Wow, he didn't hide it in the basement. He didn't hide a studio in the garage. He didn't so what I find is is that people compartmentalize. Just wear being an artist on your sleeve, like you walked into his house and every aspect was his paintings everywhere, and he could had plopped down an artist on a chair and done a painting of her, because his life was art. And so that's something I want you to ask yourself, are you one person to certain people and another person to other people, or are you completely just artist all the time? And that's that is who I am. Like, I mean, I talk art. I if I travel, it's for art. If people come to our house, you know, there's art everywhere, like it's, it's not like I present this, this, you know, Picture Perfect Living room where it's, you know, so pristine. You can't get dirty. No, it's like, there's paintings, there's art stuff, there's everywhere. So I just remember him learning that from him, and I was so appreciative that I knew that I was never going to be that person that hid my art a way, way, way, in some place that people never saw, and then sometimes look at me. I just volunteer information. So, no, no, this

Olya Konell 56:17

is perfect, because I'm actually taking, like, the notes you've shared. I mean, this is valuable so many people.

Susan Lyon 56:25

So I mean, I talked about finding art groups. Now that's tricky, because you can find art groups and maybe those art groups you don't click with, but I 100% would bet money that you would find at least one person out of that art group. Then, then you can create your own secondary art group. How do you get better? Because what happens is, as artists, especially when I teach workshops, I do like to teach block ins. A lot I really like to teach the beginning approach, because, you know, it's like, it's just the most important thing. Because I feel that in workshops, if an artist is working on one piece for five days straight, they don't have that ability to, kind of, to like, start again, to like, make something fresh, to like, it's like, I feel like it's, it's piano scales, right? You're just constantly doing something over and over and over again, because we need good eye hand coordination. We're trying to, like, get that cellular memory so that when you're starting something again, it's like, it's not as difficult. Timed exercises is what I always recommend. And I know that when my paintings, we all do it like, my paintings will get stale, like I'll start to realize that I'm nitpicking. I go, okay, all right, for a few days I'm gonna do timed exercises, and they can be anywhere from like a half hour to an hour where I'm just blocking in because we need the ability to paint with more paint, bigger strokes, bigger shapes. Because the moment we get down to tiny shapes, that's when things get a little bit, you know, too, yeah, too detailed. So it's the idea that when you start to feel that things are not going the way you want, is like, okay, just take a day or two and just do timed exercises. It's, you know, are you willing to do it? That's the number one thing. But I love it. I find it okay. I don't know if we talked about this or not. I probably did, but I'm just bringing up on it. No, no, no, that this live below your means, please. I mentioned talking moving to North Carolina, but just don't, you know what? Don't live off of credit, just if you can pay in cash. I sometimes I think, you know, Scott and I came from completely different families that dealt with money differently, but yet we both learned from both those two extremes. Hey, buy things with what you have do. Never just buy things to extend your you know, if you have to pay off credit card, you will never catch up. So please just live within your live below your means and always pay things off. What else I'm like? I'm just trying to think, did I answer your question about invisible stuff? Oh

Olya Konell 59:17

yeah, no. Actually, what you shared is so perfect, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I was I didn't want to assume that that's what you did, because some artists might not, but I it's I love hearing things like this, because it helps us know that this is what you're doing and it's working for you and you're enjoying it. And here's the pros, because you don't have to send your art in. We actually also shared our bold brush Contest, which is also free for members. And, you know, new people can get their first one free, but that is, like, there that's a no brainer, like, pick one a month to enter. Like, I love it more. And we don't even know about those two sites. So this will be useful for everybody.

Angela Agosto 59:56

Submit your bank shipping fee to pay an. Tree fee. That's great. Oh,

Olya Konell 1:00:01

huge. What about So, I know several people have asked about this, and you do such a beautiful job about talking about pricing, helping price, you pricing your work to sell. What are some like real life? You know, tangible tips that artists can can take. I know it's, it's not a one size fits all answer, but if somebody's stuck, and they're newer, maybe they're trying to, they have a bunch of paintings, they need to sell them. Well,

Susan Lyon 1:00:30

I mean, it's commerce. It really is. The thing that I notice most is that people see how other people are pricing, and then they price the same and, like, we have, like, a local in Winston, Salem, there's a local Art Association. I'm going to be completely honest, I don't think any of them are listening, you know, they, they're probably all of a certain age. They're primarily women, and, you know, they have art shows, and they do things right? And I remember talking to an artist who had just, you know, left her job and she really wanted to be an artist, and she we were talking, and I said, Well, okay, so you see how they're pricing their stuff. Did any of them sell? Do any of them need money? These are all the things. What happens is we tend to price ourselves because we see how other people price, and we go, oh, well, I don't want to look bad. I don't want to be lower than them. You know, they're pricing their something at $1,200 so I should price my thing at 1200 or maybe you know is that, you know mine's bigger than theirs. I should price it at least to 1200 and I'm like, Well, no, you know, you build up to that, right? You have, you know, that's because that's the thing is that, to be completely honest, you price at what it will sell. Now, of course, as artists, we hope, we just pray, that we get our materials back, that we get minimum wage for the time we put in it, but you might not. And so what happens is, you, you know, you just, if like, if you're pricing your work at $1,200 and it is not selling, it's because $1,200 is a lot of money. And believe me, would I pay $1,200 for a piece of art, maybe for an artist that I've never heard of, or this or that? No, I mean, I just wouldn't. So you have to think about, first of all, think about number one question, would you buy your own work? Take yourself out of the equation. If you saw your work, would you literally pay good money for it that you might actually go on a vacation instead? Would you pay for that and put that on your wall. And I had to, like, look at my own work too. I have, like, would I, you know? And so those are questions that are really deep, and so, you know. And I don't even look about what other people are always telling me my prices are too low, and I just want to stick my tongue out at them, because I go, but if my prices are too low, buy it. You know, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it because I need to keep going. I need to, like, I don't want to be my biggest art collector. I want my my more work to to move so it's, it's commerce do. If you put a piece and you have more than one person that wants to buy your piece, then there's a possibility you can raise your price so it is exactly that standard, and you might lose some money. You You know what, if you did a painting and you spent a long time on it? That's why Scott and I don't even buy expensive frames anymore. It's completely unattainable for us. We just can't do it anymore. So, you know, you it's like you have to think about, yeah, it's long, maybe, if I break even, okay, well now, then hopefully the next one, you know, okay, each I just need someone to subsidize me to keep going, so that I can get better, so that I can keep going. And, I mean, that's what I have to say about prices is that I really do think about, well, what could I live with? What? How much would I literally spend on something, knowing that money is like, how much would I be willing to spend on a couch? Well, how much would I be willing to spend on this? And you have to take a really serious look at, you know, what would you be willing to spend? And if you're not willing to spend $1,200 on somebody else's work, you can't expect them to spend it on yours, right? You've got to start slow, get a following First of all, if someone buys your work for, say, three to $500 most likely they'll buy another piece from you, because that's what they want. They want to like. They want to be collectors, people, inherently, who buy art. Anyone who knows people who buy art, love to show people around their house and say, Oh, look what I bought. I bought this artist. She was young, or I bought this person. It was like, you know, at some store in the mountains. And a great memory. What? Well then they, if you that artist sends them a Christmas card, they're going to feel loyalty. They're going to go, Well, hey, gosh, now I have a relationship with this artist. And you know what I might look at when they have a holiday sale and I might buy something again. So these are the things that I think about. You might hear different, but I'm going to be like, price your work. You know, to sell and then build up, is what I'm going to say, yeah.

Olya Konell 1:05:24

And I think that's important for anybody that's like, oh, you know, but I don't want to lower my value or whatever. Nobody's saying that you should go backwards. Unless you haven't sold anything, then you need to reassess where you're at. But I can speak from personal experience, and I'm not some fancy, famous I mean, I did a lot of commissions of animals because I love them, and when I first started, I made no money. I just covered Mike's fences. I had no idea what I was doing, and I sucked, in my opinion, but people thought it was great, and they paid me money to paint their dog. I said, Sure, why not? I was still learning how to paint, and this was like years ago, but every year, I kept getting more and more commissions and orders, especially around the holidays. And I'm gonna, you know, again, I'm focusing more on commissions. It got to a point where I had too many. My husband goes, you need to increase your prices. I'm like, okay, so I did, and then I did again, and then I did again, and then I had to do it multiple times a year because I was just getting, I didn't have couldn't clone myself, so I could only do so many. And anyway, so what you're saying is completely true and as and the beautiful thing about people that buy work, whether it be an original or a commission or just a piece of of hand painted art, that piece serves as advertising. So that piece goes to someone's house, it hangs on their wall, and people come over and then they want one, or they like, Who is this artist, or they look them up on Instagram. Oh yeah, you know, they share like you said, they show them around their house. Or if it if you are a commission, somebody who takes commissions and actually enjoys them, you know they're going to probably contact you, because they're going to be your best advocate. And then the advice that you just shared about reaching out to your past collectors guys, I cannot understate how important that is. If you literally just did that once a year, you would probably sell to those same people every year, something, a study, a print, a smaller original, and then you can upsell them later, you know, you can say, hey, here's one. It's a little, you know, a little bit bigger, a little bit more, but they might buy it because they already have two of your pieces. Who knows?

Susan Lyon 1:07:32

Yeah, yeah. I

Angela Agosto 1:07:33

love what Scott is saying in here. He said, great advice. Pricing, red dots and perceived scarcity drives pricing up. Collectors, buy multiple prices. Then they love seeing when your prices go up, because they're, like you said earlier, Susan, they support you, and especially they have a connection with you. They want you to thrive. And then they're probably, I'm going to help make sure I buy another piece and

Susan Lyon 1:07:52

and exactly, and I was just saying that, um, you know, my price is probably when I'm in a big show, I probably am probably one of the, the cheapest, but I one of my favorite things is, you know what? I don't like collectors that buy things as investment pieces. I don't those people. They don't really, they don't. They are thinking about, Oh, well, maybe I could put this in an auction five years from now. I mean, I don't want to live off those type of people, the people that I love, just like me saying I don't mind if people, you know, $5 subscriptions. It's like, I actually, you know, when people say, Is it okay if I pay on payments? I go, when someone asks me if they can buy my artwork on payments, I'm like, That person loves my artwork. Yeah. They are like, I was like, Okay, you're the type of person that, yeah, of course you can pay on payments, you know. So, you know, it's all, it's all about your perspective. It really is, you know. So that's, that's what I'm saying. It's kind of like, and I'm not against commissions at all. I mean, I think that if people see your work and they love what you do, then doing a commission for them can be extremely satisfying.

Olya Konell 1:09:03

Yeah, you're getting paid to learn and grow

Susan Lyon 1:09:07

exactly, and you know that you're doing something that those people are going to cherish and probably hand down forever. They're not going to give it like someone found one of my paintings in a goodwill, alright? And they had, and it was not even a bad painting. And she had like, years, you know, emailed me or something, and sent me an email. Just says, Is this one of your paintings? I said, Yes. And she goes, Oh, I think I bought it for like, $20 I was like, wow, that's lucky, wise, because somebody had bought it so long ago and it got inherited. Oh, right. And then maybe the person died, and that those people, those children, could, you know, could care less about it. But when it's a commission, you know that it's personal. You know that it's of the family, of the pet, of a house, of something that they cherish. And so most likely, those paintings are going to live forever.

Olya Konell 1:09:55

Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely, especially if it's grand. I love grandpa. Grandpa paintings. Yes, those are my favorite. I love, you know, because you know that is not going anywhere. Great. They're gonna be fighting over it. That's, yeah, it's gonna be

Angela Agosto 1:10:09

the next generation. I have grandparents, beautiful painting of

Olya Konell 1:10:13

them, yeah. And I have somebody saying, I live off of my commissions that must produce my own collections in the hope to get into a gallery. Honestly, if like doing what you're doing and you're loving it, and it's, it's you're, you're making a living doing what you love. Honestly, I would rather do a commission for somebody to pay my bills instead of going and working in some office pressing buttons that I don't like doing something I don't like to pay my bills.

Susan Lyon 1:10:39

So it's very it's not super rewarding sometimes to be in a gallery. It really isn't.

Olya Konell 1:10:47

He has his pros and cons. The right one is yes. Well, that's it. And

Susan Lyon 1:10:50

I was like, I was kind of mentioning how some galleries we all know, like the big galleries, right? The ones we see in magazines, the one that we hear about, like artists who are making lots of money, those are the galleries that are going to be almost impossible to get in, you know. And if you do, for some reason, you're probably going to be low on the totem pole. Go into galleries that are smaller who you know, it's all really, it's like dating. It really, really is you want to know that when somebody walks into their gallery, that that gallery owner is going to lead someone directly to your piece, that they love your work. So it's all about enthusiasm, like, I'm just going to be totally honest. Like, early on, we would go visit galleries, and this was primarily when Scott was in galleries and I wasn't in them, and we'd go into a gallery, and if the gallery owners were, like, dismissive, rude, they didn't know who we were, you know, because we were young, we probably looked poor, you know. And you walk in and they probably could care less. They're like, although they're just, they're just people, tourists who just want to make take up our time. And if they never came over and said hello to us, if we were waiting for them, if they felt they weren't like, pleasing one time, we literally got so disgusted with a gallery that he was in in Aspen. We we were like, we just left. She's such a jerk, you know? And we went to another gallery where the person had in had recognized Scott and said, Oh my gosh, you're Scott Burdick. And we talked to him. They were so friendly. I mean, I don't know if I recommend this, but we literally went back to the other gallery, took the paintings off the wall, walked down the street and gave them those paintings I love, that the gallery has to be people who are friendly, that you can talk to on the phone, that you're not scared of, that you know are trying to help your career out, you know, and that you feel loyalty to if you don't feel loyalty, if they Don't feel loyalty to you, if you don't feel loyalty to them, it just won't work. It will fizzle. And then you'll have to find another gallery and and so that's why I was saying that there's this dream about being in galleries, but if you could find a local gallery, or at least a small gallery that is enthusiastic, that's the best thing. Yeah. And I also just think the ability to sell your own work is is the ultimate. And what all artists are actually moving towards. I mean, they really are.

Olya Konell 1:13:08

And this is something that we echo a lot, and obviously we're biased, because we offer websites, but I you know this, this is where Faso is mission, and the way we do things kind of aligns with how you do it. One of the things that I that I love, why I love working with Faso, is they're some of the cheapest. You can get your foot in the door for like, $15 a month to have a site. Or you can get, like, obviously, one with more bells and whistles, but they're easy to maintain. So if you if it's 2024, 2025 you make art, and you don't own your own name. So your name.com you just you need to own your name, like you have to own your with the word art at the end, or just your name, whatever you want to do. Like, that's almost like having a it's like not having a resume. You need, even if it's not through us, just get it somewhere, buy your domain.

Susan Lyon 1:14:07

Yeah, is that people do write us and ask us about you guys, you know, every now and then say, hey, you know we see that you're with them. Do you recommend them? Or what's your experience? And I'll say, well, they have the nicest customer service. Oh, I know that. I mean, I hate to doubt, like Angela, this is the first time I'm seeing Angela's face. And I almost was a little embarrassed, because, I mean, we probably had a website with you. I don't even know how long, forever when you guys come we started. And how about, I mean, if we could look through the emails of me in just like, dire panic, like, I don't know why this happened, or Angela this has gone wrong, or I don't know what I'm doing. And like, she writes back with the sweetest emails that I always then feel like, Ah, she I don't deserve this because I wrote her in like, you know, custody purpose is a thankless job. And you, really, you guys have always been extremely prompt and very friendly. Yeah, so I am going to say that, like, I don't have never had another, other company I dealt with that is like that,

Olya Konell 1:15:14

yeah, no, we, we do pride ourselves that I was in that, and that means a lot to hear that it's like we're getting a great job. Yeah, you'll make us cry if you keep going. But no, it really like, I thank you, and yeah to everybody listening like what you're saying. You need, if you're gonna it's not just galleries. You need to have a place to display your art. And obviously having a social media account is good, but having your own site with your name, I think is important whether you're just starting out and you need a place to share. Because when you meet people, if they Google your name with the word artist, they're going to find you like that's SEO. Is not applicable to us. Nobody's just going to go into Google and type in artist and then hope you come up. That's not how it works. You have to meet them first and then that way, then they could find your Instagram, and they could find your your Facebook, or whatever it is, wherever you like to share. Yeah.

Susan Lyon 1:16:07

And so whoever is talking about their dream is getting into galleries. Is that if you, if you can put yourself in the in the shoes of a gallery owner, they get dozens of, probably, you know, people reaching out to them every day, like dozens of people every single day, asking to be in their gallery and and so they can pick and choose, but like, say, you put an image in the email, and you just say, hey, you know this, I would love you to check out my work. I love your gallery well. And then they go to your website, and the website is not professional looking, or you have four images come on. You know this? Sometimes when I talk to people, I go, you have to prove that you have a work ethic. Galleries do not want to spend their hard earned time or money, or the what they have built up. They have built up something so big that now you want to be a part of it. But then if, like, they say they're going to take a chance on you, they have to know that you can produce because if they do sell for you, they then don't want to be like, stranded and like you say, Well, I don't, you know, I can't get you anything for another year or two. You're like, Well, why? You know you have to show a lineage of work. You have to show on Instagram that if someone looks at you, they go, okay, yeah, oh, yeah, distant, oh, I've seen them do multiple good images. This isn't the only good image they've ever done. We've all seen like, sometimes you go to someone's Instagram and you're like, wow. Like, did they do this, or did their their technical ability jump 1000 steps, like you have to show, like, a graduation of things that they go, yeah, they do work all the time. They are diligent. They're going to keep, you know, if I like them, they're going to be able to produce and give me stuff. So those are just things to think about. Yeah, absolutely.

Olya Konell 1:17:57

It's like, it's like having, it's creates a sense of professionalism and and that, you know, if you're trying to go for that, it's so important

Angela Agosto 1:18:08

the first collect is that beautiful painting. Like you said, the collector is going to be a repeat customer, and you have nothing else for them to buy, like that was the only good piece. So, yeah, it's definitely important to have something good on Instagram, but also on a website, because that becomes your online if you're not in a gallery, at least have your own online gallery. You want

Olya Konell 1:18:26

to make it so if you meet somebody at a coffee shop while you're traveling and they Google your name, they can find you like you want to make it that way. So, and I know we've, we've, I love this discussion. I know we've jumped around, and I am. ADHD, so thank you for bearing with me as well, because I enjoy that kind of a flow. None of our questions were set in stone. And, you know, we kind of covered a little bit of everything, but kind of does as we land the plane. Or what I would like to kind of wrap up with was business for business insights and career shifts. So like reflecting on your career, was there one piece of business advice that you received early on that shifted how you approached being an artist? And then,

Susan Lyon 1:19:14

gosh, you know, I don't really remember getting that much advice when I was young. I think that it is the probably just one of the main things is just don't have all your eggs in one basket. Don't rely on one revenue stream like I was talking about galleries. Don't rely on it, because it could dry up. And even when galleries were our number one, it used to be, you know, I'm going to say 1015, years ago, galleries were our number one income source. Well, what would happen is we would have to have a gallery on the East Coast, a gallery on the West Coast, a gallery up in the mountains, a gallery in the south like Texas, and you would then know that each gallery had their season. So you would start to go, oh, okay, well now it's coming up summer. Now we go to Jackson Hole. So those are the things that you would know where it's like nowadays. Like, I'm saying it's just not the same. So you can have a gallery here or there, but don't just only rely on that. Like, of course, there's online teaching. But some people, what I find is that they're really intimidated about doing their own online classes. And just like me, I'm not perfectionist, and I just jumped into doing online and the very first online classes I did. I didn't do any live demos because I was nervous about it. I was doing this. You know, what I would do is I would pre tape a demo, so that way I knew it had turned out right, you know, I could, like, you know, simply, just have a simple little demo that I could share live. Or, hey, here's a link. You guys after the class, watch this and maybe for homework, do something, and then I'll critique it during the next class. So my first classes were just me talking and just having a lesson plan and doing Q and A's and like doing a slide show, but then saying, hey, my guys, my demo is something I pre recorded. So you know, those are the things that you just kind of jump in. And I think people are really, really forgiving. I just think as long as you go with the flow, and as long as you offer a lot, and when things go wrong, like laugh, I remember once I did an online class and literally a power outage, and it was just like, what's going on here? Like I was freaking out. And so it took like, five or 10 minutes, you know, to the internet to come back on, and everything to come back. And I

Olya Konell 1:21:25

finally got back to the

Susan Lyon 1:21:26

class, I was like, everybody's still there. It was only my power outage. Everybody else had still stayed in the class, even though I was sweating and I was having a heart attack. You know, what happens in zoom is that the next the first part, it just defaults. So they were all just talking. They were like, Oh, it was so funny, because back, I just couldn't stop laughing. I thought, thank God, but you know, so those are the things that go wrong. But you know you just, you just have to, like, just make sure that you just stay chill, but you know things will go wrong. But I do think that offering information online, you can make money. You know what? Start off with just a zoom live stream where it's just one one afternoon, and charge $50 you know, and you know. So it's not like you could see how it goes, right? And even if you like five people, it will be worth it. Five people for $5 for you sitting in your studio talking to people, it's you know. So don't think that, like, oh my gosh, I have to get you know 100 people. No, five people is enough to start off, so start, just start. That's what I'm saying.

Olya Konell 1:22:45

I love that. And I was actually my like, one of my last questions always is, if there's one last thing, if there was one thing someone could take away from this conversation, what would that piece of wisdom be? And I feel like what you just said right now, just start.

Susan Lyon 1:23:00

Just start. Yeah, yeah,

Olya Konell 1:23:03

and you'll work it out along the way. And we at BoldBrush Faso, we believe that too. We jump into things sometimes, because sometimes you don't know what you don't know, and you can't pre know everything that you don't know without actually doing it. So you figure it out along the way. Yeah, I'm

Angela Agosto 1:23:18

gonna quote Clint here, and hopefully he's okay with it, but he always just just jump off the clip and build the parachute on the way down. And that's been our motto with a lot of stuff, especially funny, when everybody's stuff, you know, kind of came to a halt, that he's like, Okay, we're going to start. And we did something in three weeks that we have been putting off because we thought it was going to take us a year, which was building the online video for artists to be able to sell their workshops or their their classes that they were now, you know, couldn't they were canceled because of the pandemic. So I love that advice.

Olya Konell 1:23:49

Yeah, thank you, Susan. You are a wealth of knowledge. I am envious and jealous of the people that have you on Patreon. I'm just going to have to find you after Yeah, your energy is is absolutely contagious and so inspiring. And honestly, it feels really good to talk to other artists. I'm all getting teary eyed. It feels so good to talk to other humans, other artists that are in the creative space, whether you're photographer, a painter, a sculptor, you know, a writer that are, you know, knowing there's other people on this planet walking alongside us in their own journeys, and that we have the ability to support each other. Why am I so emotional today?

1:24:32

Okay, I think it's because,

Susan Lyon 1:24:34

yeah, I think this your your spirit, and I'm going to go, woo, woo. I think your spirit, you know this, these type of get togethers, yeah, I mean, and what's that saying? It's like this, the mother of necessity or invention is the mother of how do we say that? Thank you. So the mother of necessity, or the invention is the mother of necessity. You know what I'm saying? When you do something, it like you just figure it out. And I feel. Like, would we have ever done this before we had to? Yeah, right, it would have thought it was too expensive. It was to this blah, blah, blah. I personally really like zoom. I people, sometimes they say they don't like it. I like it. I love seeing your faces. I love knowing that people from you know, Australia and Europe and Mexico can all come and we can share. I just saying, that's what I'm saying. I think your spirit is, is really tapping into that, that in your life, we are all here right now, the people here is, like, kind of exciting. So

Olya Konell 1:25:34

it is, yeah, finally

1:25:35

seeing you. I

Angela Agosto 1:25:36

love that. Finally seeing you, you know, the emails and stuff that you know we've been through so that that's great, but you're right. Yeah, what have we been talking about doing webinars for years? And it wasn't until we kind of had to with the you know, zoom, that we're like, do it. We're all online now. There's no excuse. Well,

Olya Konell 1:25:52

and and I want to drop it, or just a quick FYI to everybody, if you want me to, I like to, I like to send all if you have a comment or message for Susan, drop it in the chat. I'm going to send it to her afterwards. I love passing these on. I mean, if there's something that you took away from today, from today's discussion, what's the thing that you're going to do? You know? And thank you for hanging on with us. We went over. We appreciate you. We apologize for going over, but we thank you.

Susan Lyon 1:26:20

Oh my God, never apologize. Okay, we don't, we don't The more the better, the

Olya Konell 1:26:25

more the better. Yes, yeah, so, but yes, if you have something you want me to pass on, put it in the comments. We are so grateful that you're here for joining us. We are grateful for your enthusiasm, your energy. And I'm saying this to the audience and to Susan, thank you as well. I would love to have you and Scott back next year together. I'd be really fun to hear. It'll be more of a comedy, but sure, I'm down, I'm down.

Susan Lyon 1:26:49

I will get so much nitpicking. I'll be like, Susan, let's got talk. Susan, be nice to Scott.

Olya Konell 1:26:56

We'll, we will preface this. We'll be like, You know what? Be prepared to laugh. This is going to be Yeah, love it.

1:27:04

Thank you everybody. Thank you everybody.

Olya Konell 1:27:07

Thank you everybody. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Have a creative rest of your week. Bye, everyone. Bye.

Creatively,

Clint Watson
BoldBrush Founder & Creativity Fanatic

PS - This email may be too long for some email programs. We suggest you watch/read it on the web by clicking the button below.

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Olya Konell 00:00

Well, welcome to BoldBrush Live. My name is Olya. I'm your host, and I have Angela Agosto with me, who's our Artist Relations Director, and we have our special guest, Christopher Remmers. I don't know if you remember the last time we had him on, but he's been working on some really exciting things, and I'm really looking forward to chatting with him today, and I'll bring him on here in just a moment, but in kind of true fashion, what we in our little routine, what we like to do is just kind of run through just some basic announcements and who we are and what we do. So these are the BoldBrush live webinars where we feature a new guest artist every month. They occur every four weeks. If you're attending this one and you registered, you don't have to re register to the next one. You'll get a reminder you know when the next one comes up, letting you know who's the guest. And then you can choose to attend or watch the recording. Information on recordings is in your emails. Scroll down to that section, whether you're a customer or non customer, there are ways to get access to the recording and then BoldBrush. A lot of people ask, What's BoldBrush, and what's Faso and what's the connection? So BoldBrush is a company where our goal is to inspire artists, to inspire the world, as you can see@boldbrush.com and we do that by providing educational resources, inspirational resources, in our newsletters, in webinars, in our podcast. And then we offer paid resources as well, which is tools for artists to build their websites. And our two main one are Faso websites that most of you are familiar with, and the newest one is artful Squarespace by Faso, we've actually been able to partner with Squarespace in a way, to offer our their most advanced plan at a much lower price, and then at the same time, it allows our customers, you know whether they're on Squarespace or whether they're on Faso, to be able to go into our marketing community, and access educational resources, like a marketing calendar, get critiques of their work, watch videos, read articles, and kind of learn about the sales aspect. How do you sell your art? How do you tell the story about your art in all this stuff, you know? How do you get people to your website, all that good stuff. So that is a little bit about us and what we do. And now I'm going to actually go ahead and segue right into remove my little spotlight here, but I'm going to segue and introduce Christopher. Christopher just first of all, welcome. Thank you so much for taking the time today. And I would love to just give you a moment to say hello and introduce yourself to our audience. Yeah,

Christopher Remmers 02:50

It's great to be back on here. I think this is our third time, second live, and we did the podcast once. And yeah, so thanks for having me back on. I really love being a part of this community. And shout out to all of you. And hello, conscious creatives. I saw a few of my students are in here today, so welcome in. Oh, and yeah, I, you know, I'm Christopher Remmers. I, I live in the tip top corner of the Pacific Northwest, in Bellingham, Washington, where I have a gallery and a studio here, and I split my time between working on my paintings and and then working with my students at the conscious creativity Academy, which I've been having up and running for about a year and a half now. And, yeah, that's about it, more or less. I'm sure we'll get into all the details. Yeah,

Olya Konell 03:43

yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing, and I have your site up, and Angela is sharing links to everything in the chat. So just if you guys want to jump into the chat and grab them, you can always look at things later, but that's how you can find, find and learn more about Christopher and everything that he is offering. One of the kind of first questions, just to kind of launch us up lunch. Blah, can't talk. Launch us out. Not lunch. I'm not we're not ready for lunch yet. But I wanted to know, can you share, share the story, I guess the short version behind your journey as an artist, what initially inspired you to pursue this path?

Christopher Remmers 04:25

Yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been a long one, you know, I, you know, I started a very young age. My My mother was an artist. She did wildlife oil painting, mostly, and she exposed, like me and my siblings, to art when we were kids, and, you know, it just kind of stuck with us. And, you know, it's funny when I, like recall, I think what made it stick initially was, was probably out of a sense of competition with my older brother, you know, like he was, he really took off. And my brother became a professional artist. He was an illustrator. And got into tattoos and and that whole realm. But I just, you know, it started there, but then I noticed that I really loved it, and I had a knack for it, and I it just kind of blossomed from there. And it wasn't like a, you know, a direct path by any means, you know, I think I, like many artists, I kind of really struggled with this idea of whether or not it was a viable path for a career, and if I should be spending my time doing that versus other things. And kind of existed one foot in, one foot out for most of my 20s, still always having a studio, still kind of curious. But it wasn't until, like, the end of my 20s that I decided to take it seriously go get formal training. Once I took the time to really know what it was that I wanted and like, the kind of art that I wanted to create and what I wanted to say. And then from there, it's yeah. Just never looked back. I've been I've been on it ever since, yeah,

Olya Konell 05:57

and I love that last part where you said you had to figure out what it was you wanted to say and what it was that you wanted and I think just from observing your journey, and you know, the different things that you do, that's a huge part of how you're contributing back to the art community, is by helping other artists and in that particular way. And I love that, because that is a dilemma, like, what do we want to say in general? You know, and everybody can see, I have his Instagram app. Your work has, like, a very deep, other worldly quality. And I'm just going to dive right in. How do you tap into your creative consciousness? You know, when developing ideas for new pieces, I mean, you know, what's Do you have, like, a ritual or anything like that?

Christopher Remmers 06:48

Yeah, I do now, and it, you know, it's evolved over the years. But I would say, you know, it started from a place that wasn't directly related to creating art. I think it was directly related to, I mean, the things that I'm deeply curious about in my life. You know, I think initially, when I was younger, I got really interested in meditation practice, and I'm a long time practitioner of the pasta meditation, and that sort of led me into these other rabbit holes, of getting really inspired by the work of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung and mythology and like, just that whole world of how we relate to things. And I think in particular with, like Joseph Campbell's work, this idea around the mono myth that you know, if you look across time and culture and the stories that we've been telling, that there were more similar than not, and that we're all kind of pointing towards investigating these particular truths about ourselves and our place in the world. And I think that was like the seed that got me to this place of, how could I use my art as a vehicle to explore those things, you know, because it goes into this idea that I talk about a lot, which is art as a vehicle for meaning making, and that rooted in this idea of mythology. And like what Joseph Campbell would talk about, is mythology is it is the the future potential of what we aimed at in our lives, right? And so you think about when we are aiming at something that we create that's larger than life, and we enshrine it in something beautiful and inspiring. It like encourage us, it inspires us to, like, move towards that thing. And that's, I think, the original impetus behind why we told stories, and why we we created mythology as like the psycho technology, and then we use art to essentially enshrine those stories and that which was most meaningful to us. And this is the idea that I've been chewing on for a really long time, that like art beyond just the craft, beyond the pretty picture, beyond those basic things, it's actually something that deeply influences and inspires culture and individuals. And is is, like, really something that I think is greatly beneficial and also critical to culture. And so, like, go into my artwork from that space,

Olya Konell 09:15

yeah, so, and I love that, because what you having that, and that's having that, that idea, you know, of what you're passionate about, because at the core, that's what you are passionate about. And then, like you said, your art is a vehicle for that. And I think a lot of artists, and I've been there myself, we want to, we have this ability to paint or create something, but we don't know what we want to say or what, you know, we don't have that deeper thing behind it, which isn't, oh, I mean, we could still create beautiful images, but there's not this, like powerful underlying thread that weaves them all together, which you have done so beautifully. You know, it's almost like they're individual paintings, but there's a story being. Told. And when I look at like a, you know, a screen of your work, you know, I'm even though they're individual paintings, I can just feel that there is a connection between every single one in some particular way, even if I don't know what that connection is, which you know as for a collector or for a person that you know, is interested. Then they're going to want to go deeper, you know, they're, they're going to, they want to know what's behind that piece, or what inspired it, what it means, you

Angela Agosto 10:31

know, inspired you. Like, yeah. You think, yeah. And

Olya Konell 10:34

go ahead. Sorry. Just one thing I

Christopher Remmers 10:37

wanted to say about that is, like, I mean, this is, this is in every one of us. And I actually, you know, I firmly believe this isn't exclusive to artists either, you know, I think it's kind of, I think of it from kind of big picture creativity is like that is one of, I think our primary like functions as human beings is to, like, learn how to tap into our authentic creativity in any field that it is. And within each one of us, we're deeply curious. There's something that, like, there's a driver in us, and in some of us that might be more alive than others, but that's just a matter of, like, directing attention. And so it's like, the thing that I talk to my students a lot about is like, that thing is in you, you just need to give it space to, kind of like, explore what that is for you, and then once you kind of land in that place, then then that's the Wellspring, in my opinion, like you can go as deep and as long and as far as you want to with that and using your artwork to explore it. Yeah,

Olya Konell 11:34

I'm going to ask kind of a blunt question, or like a direct question, because everybody's always thinking about this. I mean, we are here to learn about creativity and art and marketing, but the end of the day, every artist needs to make money, whether it be part time with art or full time. Would you say that, you know, in your late 20s, when you kind of tapped into this and you found your personal Wellspring, you know, be, you know, you, you kind of figured this out for yourself. Did that also help you with art sales? Did people did that benefit you did is there, would you say there's a connection between creating your most authentic art and being able to sell that better than just creating whatever? Yeah, 100% 100%

Christopher Remmers 12:18

Yeah, and I, but it didn't like, that didn't come you know, I mean, the way that I look at marketing is storytelling, and I That's how, that's how I kind of grok it in my own mind, is shout out to, I can't remember that author's name, but anyway, it allows me to then, like, interface with that world of marketing and that, like, I think a lot of artists kind of cringe around because it's like, it feels like you're selling out, or that you have to be salesy, or this and that. And like, there is an element of that, but you can, you can make it relatable to you, because you're trying to tell a story, whether and this, this exists, whether you're an abstract artist or like a literal, like narrative figure painter, that like you're exploring something and that's a story that you're engaged with. And what we're trying to do in marketing is find the people that relate to that story. And so I think it helps a lot in that space. But that's, I think that's only one side of it, and the other part of it for artists, that I think is important is this kind of goes back to this fundamental thing that I believe that that like art is comprised of two primary things, one which is like the the like the creative voice and the vision, and like the conceptual model, and Then there's the craft, right? And I think both are, are equally important. And I think that this idea of, of, like, really focusing in on, like, the the beauty and the craft of what you make, you know, I always say, I often say, Be so good. They can't ignore you. Like that too, I think more so than in other fields, but not really. I mean, like, products that do well are products that are high quality. And so it's like, you know, putting a lot of attention into making sure the products that you create is of high quality. And like has that other aspect of deep meaning and introspection, I think in the arts, is like the perfect combination that helps you thrive in that space, in terms of the business side of it, it's not all of it. Those are, like the primary things that I think if you focus on those two, becoming a good storyteller, and thinking about relatability, and then also focusing on making, making something that's like, exceptional, like, it's going to make it a lot easier for

Olya Konell 14:41

you. And and I love I love that, because too many, too often, we also do, like a members only AMA, where artists get to submit questions to us that we answer. And this is like a separate thing. And one of the biggest questions is like, how do I get more people to my website? How do I, you know, and it's focused on these. Superficial things, but then, like when I when I engage with these artists, I'll oftentimes quickly pull up their site or their socials just to see what kind of work they create. Where are they in their artistic journey? And it's what you just said, if they stop focusing on what they just asked and go tackle mastery and tackle storytelling, that thing that they're trying to achieve will become so much easier to get more likes or views or whatever, because they're so focused on, you know, the this, you know what they think they have to do to market their work. They've kind of jumped ahead of the the horse ahead of the care. You know what I mean, they need to, oh yeah, and, and something, I will say it is not bad, or you're not a failure, if you just say, You know what, I'm going to take this year to grow, and I'm going to, you know, work do this, but then all of my free time is going to be dedicated to, you know, working on my craft, and then focusing on, you know, growing internally and figuring out the story aspect of it and how to tell that story, because you'll come out of it so much stronger, I would say, You know what I mean, than trying to do everything at once, because it's yeah, it's overwhelming.

Christopher Remmers 16:15

Yeah, it is, it is. It's a lot to juggle. And oftentimes, like, I'll get on interviews or calls or talk with artists that they, you know, they reach out to me. They're like, I just can't sell my work. Can you please help me? And I look at their work and I'm like, frankly, honestly, you have no business trying to sell your work right now. Like, you need to focus on making art, you know. Like, that's, and that's and, you know, that brings up, like, a, I don't know how deep we want to go into this a controversial topic. I think, I think one of the issues that I see, and I haven't really landed in a place that I feel like I've come to, like, any solid conclusion with this, but like, when I look out into the world and relate it to other fields, that I think it's a problem that we don't have any sort of there's no line in the sand in terms of what defines an artist, kind of like, on a bigger picture, that at any point, at any time, anyone with zero or whatever qualifications can put their hand up and say, I'm an artist. And I think it depending on how you like you think of what it means to be an artist, like, if it means like being a professional artist that's out selling your work, or you're using art as like a mode of exploring, sort of your inner well being, and it's like a therapeutic tool. But this issue that we have that like people often find that like society does not value the artist, I think in part, is connected to the fact that there isn't any like, sort of defined qualifications of what it means to be an artist, and so people don't take people seriously that are engaged in that if they don't take themselves seriously, if they don't take the craft seriously, if they don't take the development of like, what do you act like? What does it mean to like step into this pathway of mastery as an artist? And I see a lot of people claiming to be artists that don't take that seriously. And I think it hurts the rest of us that do value that, that see this as, like, a very critical and important part of, like, art of our world. You know what? I mean, yeah, and so, but it's that's hard to that's hard to talk about, because the art is, you know, it's, it's got multiple definitions from people and and, like, you know, it kind of is on every individual, everyone's individual terms, in like, to test that or to push against that, can get really controversial.

Olya Konell 18:31

And, you know, with technology and social media, it has made it easier to get your art out into the visual space, right. But at the same time it has, it's made it busier. And so for an outsider looking in, you know, they see more, and they see a higher now, there's a higher percentage of people that are sharing and doing things that may, you know, it's which is fine, but maybe they're still not. They're not where they're going to be in five years or 10 years if they consistently continue working at mastering their craft. And so I see what you're saying. So for the outside, they're like, oh, it devalues art as a whole little bit. It's almost like the scarcity makes it more valuable concept, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it and the thing is, I for anybody listening, if you're like, Well, gosh darn it. Like, what if my art is not there yet? Like, first of all, I think it's okay to have that be like, hey, you know, maybe I'm not where I want to be. That is a beautiful moment of awareness to have. Because if you want to be here's the thing, then the next question is, do I want to be here? And if the answer is yes, you're still in the right place. You're still on the right path. There's just things that you can do now. You know which direction you're sailing to, at least. You know what

Christopher Remmers 19:48

I mean? That is critical, like having that idea, yeah,

Olya Konell 19:52

so, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, don't feel bad about yourself. I mean, I, I'll be honest. I look back at my first art. Yeah, and even now, like, I know, I'll look back in five years and I'll be like, Oh, cringe, you know, like I was doing this, not in I didn't do this the way I I, you know, thought, you know, I do it now, or whatever. And and also, once you get to that place, I feel like, even for you, you're as an artist, as a professional artist, you're always growing and learning and refining. And that's a whole different, like, phase of, you know, that's just, you know, that's always going to be a part of the artist journey. You're always going to grow, change and refine. But that doesn't mean that you're not ready, if, yeah, once you get there, yeah, yeah,

Christopher Remmers 20:37

yeah, you touched on a really good point, though, I think, like, there's this process of one just having kind of that clear, come to terms with yourself, of like, this is where I am. Like, the reality of like, this is where I am. I have work to do. And then to define like, Okay, what is the gap that exists between where I am now and where I'd like to be? And then like, develop that to where you know exactly what you need to do to get to where you want to go, you know, and the more definition, and the more clarity you have around that, like, the easier it is going to be for you to kind of stay the course and, like, get to there absolutely and, you

Angela Agosto 21:12

know, to like students, I think that once they know, like what Olya said, once they're aware where they're at that, you know what, I'm Not I haven't mastered. I am open to learning, where I feel some artists get a little bit, no, I'm done. This is it. And then maybe that's where they get that creative block, because they kind of stunted their own growth.

Christopher Remmers 21:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which actually, and really, it's it, sorry, go ahead, go ahead, go, go, go. I was just gonna say too. And you, you quickly discover it's like, you, you know, you, like, you set your aims on something right and then, and then, once you get into this process where you're just, you've, you've kind of built the routine and the strategies and, like, the habits of kind of moving in that direction, you find that there is no end point, really, that, like, you know, for me, like, mastery isn't like, Oh, I've achieved this. It's like, it's a it's a practice. It's a practice of, like, leaning in and deepening and maturing into this thing indefinitely, right? And and to like, you can equate it to like, the learners mindset or whichever. But like, I think it's important that it's more about the practice of the thing, rather than, like, trying to get to some end result at the end of the day, because that goal post is always going to move.

Olya Konell 22:25

It's always going to move. That's a really good, good point. And one of the things Angela just mentioned, I wanted to kind of segue into that so artist blocks. So many artists struggle with creative blocks. Just off the top of your head, you know, what advice would you give to those who are stuck and how to, you know, ensure how they can kind of move forward creatively?

Christopher Remmers 22:46

Yeah, yeah. I spoke to this a little bit earlier. You know, I think it's taking the time to, like, cultivate that other pillar of these two pillars that exist within us. There's, like, the craft, and then there's this other part, which is cultivating, sort of our vision and our creative capacity. And, like, for me, that's like tapping into that place of I often refer to it as, like, your child, like, wonder, like, why? Like, when you think back, like, what was the thing? What was the reason why you wanted to become an artist in the first place? You know, like, what lit you up, what got you excited? What was it about some thing or some subject, or whichever. And I think this is, this has become more and more challenging today because we're, we're so inundated with all the distractions, and we're seeing other people's work and all this stuff that's just kind of filling the space and all this noise. And I would say, like, Go, take some time to, like, really think about, like, what is it that you're curious about? What is it that's like the most meaningful to you? What is the thing that you want to spend your life energy exploring and trying to answer the questions around that, that, and then use your art as a way to explore that and various means, and that could be directly related to like a subject matter, that it's like a specific story, but it could also be about cultivating a particular quality of who you are through the the practice of making your art, right? It doesn't have to be like a directly related to, like, oh, I want to tell this story about that it could be like, I'm, you know, I'm struggling with this thing in my life, about, like, how to come to terms with this. Like, how could I use my art as a way to, like, move through that that is cultivating, like, inner knowing and discipline and self reflection, and these things that like, this is one thing I tapped into when I was studying at at at an atelier, which is it's like that kind of rigorous academic training, which you find out really quickly, like the technique isn't the thing you're training. What you're training is like patience and like your inner ability to kind of pay attention, slow down and observe, like, what. You see and how well you can see it, and then to like and then to imprint your own like identity into that moment, right? And that's to me, like, what we want to tap into is like cultivating that inner quality of who we are, and then that's reflected through our artwork. If that makes sense, it's like, it's to me, like the crafts like this, that's secondary to like what it means to be an artist. You know, it's this is just the vehicle that's like, putting out the thing that, like, I'm really interested in,

Olya Konell 25:33

yeah, no, I and thank you for sharing that. I know that you dive into some of what you're kind of talking about, you offer in your academy and through your courses. And you know, for anyone that is this resonated with, or they're feeling like they want to work on that, check out Christopher's links, and we'll share them again, and you can grab them. And I had somebody in the chat please to ask us to talk more about marketing. And great we Yes, we will. One of the reasons I chose to start out this way is the number one mistake artists make is like I said, they get the they they go ahead, they skip a step. And if you're marketing art that isn't, I wouldn't say, marketable, but isn't there yet, you're going to be wasting your time. And so we really want to hit this piece home. You know, focusing marketing art as is not the same as marketing anything else. Everything that you do online and offline is a part of your marketing. You're basically meeting people online and offline. You do that through social media. You do it in person, you go to an event, you shake some hands, you get to know people you didn't know before that you know. So if you're selling specifically art, and you're not a teaching artist, you're trying to focus on prints and originals, maybe you're trying to get into a gallery. Maybe you're trying to do more stuff through your website, everything. And I want to define this before we dive into those questions. But everything that you do, it's not about what you just post, but everything that you do online and offline to meet people. So, like, that's an important point, because sometimes the most effective strategies are not, not what some marketing guru is going to tell you. You know, like, we had an artist on that was like, Hey, I've been getting involved with my community. We have a vibrant artist, you know, collector artist community where I live, and I started participating in events and started finding more collectors that way, you know, building those relationships with with people. So, you know, it's, it's a, it's a very, you know, it's very different, you know, from selling mugs or shirts or anything else, right? So kind of into the first question I want to ask. And I know you're a busy man, so any advice from you would be useful, but building an art business requires wearing a ton of hats. Marketing, sales, you know, customer service, social media, creative you know, all the art create the the hat of the artist, which is the most important. How do you balance creating art with the marketing and the business side of things? I mean, is there a tool? Because one of the biggest things artists say is, I don't have time to market my art. Is there any tips?

Christopher Remmers 28:17

Uh, tools? Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Say, Can I Can I just add one more thing to that last part that you're saying in terms of, like, marketing, because I get this sometimes, and I get it like, not everyone's in this because they want to have, like, they want to do some deep, spiritual, kind of religious exploration with their art. Like, you know, some people, it's purely, and I think this is no judgment. I think it's amazing to, like, just purely dive into it through the craft. Even in that, like, you're still telling a story, and you still are creating relatability as way that you're marketing your work to people, whether you're doing landscapes or still lifes or like simple, beautiful objects painted really well. Like, even in that like you're connecting, it's all about it's about relationships and connecting through that like underlying thread of what it is that you're trying to convey with your work on a consistent basis. So I just, I just wanted to put that out there in terms of, okay, so strategies for juggling, juggling

Olya Konell 29:13

the many hats, right? Yeah. And I see somebody asked about time management too. So, perfect, yeah. Okay,

Christopher Remmers 29:19

wonderful. I love that topic. You know, the word adaptability is like one that I think is important to think about, because it's not like, always gonna it's like, you figure out this one thing and then it's good forever, because, like, you go through seasons as an artist, like you go through seasons where you might be inundated with commission work, or you have to prep for a show, and then you go through seasons where work is like, you don't have a lot of demand for work, and you need to focus more on the business, or you need to focus on diversifying income streams, or whichever it is. And so I think being able to be like, adaptable and dynamic is really important. I generally. Day. Sometimes it's like, on a month to month basis that I, I like, I adjust my schedule to accommodate, like, the demand of whatever the season is that I'm in. And sometimes it's, I mean, honestly, every sunday i i schedule out my week based on, you know what I'm doing at the time. And one thing that I've discovered is that there's, there's two different modes of how we think, either is like as like managers, like we're managing the business, and then, or like creators, right where we're we need to produce work. And those are very, very different mindsets. And so for me, like creating blocks of time that like are as undistracted as possible for me to be sitting in front of the easel and making artwork. So on those days, I don't take meetings, I don't work on admin. I like, I try and make it to where I can, like, shut off everything and just focus on that, because it allows me. It's like you have one meeting in the middle of a four hour, six hour block, that's going to totally take you out of the flow. There's like, setup and breakdown, and there's all these things that kind of it's not just like a 15 minute meeting, like that'll distract you for an hour or more most times, because it's like getting back into the mode and getting back into the routine. And so I think to start is just designing your schedule to kind of separate your, like, your your creative create, or your creating days, and then you're managing days. And oftentimes, you know, it takes a minute to, like, just get used to how to manage your business. And, like, what are all the admin tasks that you need to do, but you can generally get that done in a very short amount of time, like once you once you kind of have your system dialed and so that might be, like one and a half days a week in total for me, and the rest of the time I'm able to work on, on creating. I think that's a that's a big one for me. I mean, I now, I mean, this is after having done this for a long time, like, now I have a partner that, like, manages a lot of that stuff for me. And so, like, it has become a lot easier to, yeah, you know, create those divides, but, but I think taking, taking design very seriously in terms of, like, what's the lifestyle that you want? What are all the things you do and spend time, you know, like, I spend an hour every week designing my week to make sure it's going to be as efficient as possible, and testing that and iterating it to make sure that it works best for you. Because you might hear about a time management or a productivity hack that you hear from someone on YouTube, and it might not work for you. And so like, for me, I have to test, like, is it better for me to do, like, time blocking and just like, have space, and then when I get to that, that block of time, I decide, like, what's the most important then? Or do I have to be a little bit more intentional and deliberate about it? And but I think the underlying thing is, like, discover and kind of pay attention to, like, how you like to work, where you feel like you're the most optimal in your in your productivity, and design around that space, right? Like, when are you the most productive in your day? Like, and so like, make that time on the specific days. Like, getting your, you know, the work done that requires it the most like of your mental bandwidth, you know, don't try and do a bunch of like, really hard, demanding work at the end of the day when you're exhausted, you know. And but that comes through kind of trial and error and testing. Are you a night owl? You a morning person? Like you gotta, you gotta figure out that design for yourself. And

Olya Konell 33:40

there's a great book called corona biology, the science of perfect time. And by Daniel. I don't know who's the author, but I haven't heard of it. It's freaking awesome. If you're like nerding out about So, you're so anyway, first of all, I wanted to say I remember you talking about this, either on the podcast or on the last webinar. And I actually, I was going down those rabbit holes because I'm ADHD, I'm also creative. I am, you know, an artist, not like a full time artist, but I am on my art journey on the side. And so one of the things I started doing is, every January, and I don't, this will help you guys, I sit down on a notepad and I write down all the things I need to get done during the week, how much time I need to dedicate to those tasks. So for example, I do stuff for BoldBrush, and then how much time for, you know? And I just I find out how much time I have, and then I try to shuffle that around. And I've already experimented with my figuring out what my chronotype is. So your chronotype is, like you said, either a night owl or a morning person. And depending on which one you are, your most creative window is going to fluctuate at certain times of the day. So you know more like you know, admin tasks I'll do at this time my creative. Stuff. I'll do it this time, my best time to focus. I'll do it this time, and then I will write out my schedule every January. You can do it monthly, like you kind of do of what my ideal schedule is, and then I'll test it for a week. So I'm actually in my testing phase, but Angela, I do. I test it and and then I realized, for example, that I allotted too little time for specific things in the morning. So I'm adjusting that, and then I try to stick to that. Because if you don't aim for something, guys, you're never going to hit it. If you don't try aim for something like, aim for two hours of this, aim for an hour that you're never going to hit it. And then there's Parkinson's Law, which is like, the more time you allow for something, the longer it will take the you know, so I'm so grateful that you brought this time blocking up again and kind of reminding us to explore what our patterns are. And because, yeah, it's huge, especially it

Christopher Remmers 35:55

is huge, yeah, and I love that too, you know, like defining how long a task will take, and then setting based on that, not based on what it's due, right? Yeah, you know, that'll, that'll mess you up, but based on what you were just saying. The other thing too, that I think is important is, there's like, there's ongoing, and then there's like, there's like, urgent, yeah, things, or what I like to look at is, you know, I have, like, my ongoing it's like, every day I need to check in and, like, dedicate time to, like, responding to my students and working with my students, and like doing kind of the tasks that need to happen most days or most weeks, right? And so I have like, a dedicated slot of time for that. But then there's kind of big picture things that they're not ongoing, and they're big tasks, and they take up a lot of your mental bandwidth, both, like, in having to do them, but also because you're thinking about them. Like, say, for instance, you know, for us, we're getting ready to launch our YouTube and, like, there's a big learning curve of, like, software and recording and like, all this stuff, right? And I you know, as much as you can is, like, simplify it to where you're only focusing on these things, these big tasks at a time, and try to get those off your plate, because then it frees up your mental bandwidth, because those things are working on you, even when you're not working on them, right? Like, it's this thing, you're like, Oh, I gotta get this done. And so I create this, like, these lists so where there's like, what's the one thing that I got done this week or today is gonna, like, free up a ton of, like, my own mental bandwidth in my own space, to where I can, like, go about my other tasks a lot more efficiently. And that's helped me a lot, kind of just trying to get those big blocks off and get through them as quickly as possible, because that's also the driver that grows your business. And you know, like, learning big skills that then once you learn them, it's just an ongoing thing that gets integrated.

Olya Konell 37:44

Yeah, it's a lot easier. And this is an important point, guys, because in marketing, one of the big things that artists learn, have to learn how to do is use platforms, whether it be YouTube or Instagram or Facebook or any platform, to you know which button to push, how to make a reel, how to do that. And too many times I feel artists say, Well, I can't do that because I don't know how to do that. Therefore this is not useful to me. And that mindset, I mean, it might take you just a few hours to get to taking some crash courses on some free YouTube videos to learn how to do the thing, and then all of a sudden that's no longer a problem. And then, and then, things get faster. The longer, the more you the more you do them. You get good, just like driving a car or anything else, you stop thinking about how to do it. You're just doing and so for anyone that's like, hey, well, I don't know how to I see people doing this, but I don't know how to do that. Put that on your list, like make a list of learn how to edit a reel. Learn how to this. And then go to YouTube and type in how to make, how to edit using whatever app you're going to be using. And there's a free video with step by step instructions, just make sure it's within the last 12 months, and you can learn the thing. And, oh, yeah. And, like you said, if that's the thing that you're focusing on, that's your big project. Dedicate, I don't know, a day to learning. Dedicate, whatever it is, whatever it takes you

Angela Agosto 39:12

about your time management, like you do it every like, one big thing, maybe, maybe the learning part. Like, oh, you said, Okay, how do I do this? Go to YouTube, or go to a course or something that can be the time that you that's going to take up a lot of your week, yeah? Brain next week, then you can start applying it slowly, and then it'll just become, like you said, Christopher, like a routine that you don't need. You already know what your schedule is, so it's not going to take you that much time because you already did the hard work. Yeah? Some people do, like, workshops. And I had an artist who said, Well, I have a three month workshop that's really going to mess up. Well, let me tell you, she did that a couple years ago, and her art has improved so that, that one year that she took those three months to do a workshop, and it involved like homework, and, you know, she had to do something and turn it into the to the art instructor. And now. Her art is just taken off, and she's in a gallery, and she's just growing, and she just seems so much happier, like even with her, yeah, with her work and her responses, and I don't even hear her complain about marketing, everything just kind of flowed. Because I want you touched earlier, about once you learn what it is you want to do, you know your story, then it kind of makes marketing easier, because when you're going to sell something, the collector is going to want to know the story, because that's how they're going to connect to your people.

Christopher Remmers 40:30

Yeah, I think I mean that that, like, hits on so many levels. It's not even, it's like, it's on marketing, but it's also on your own, you know, like, mental well, being like, if you're sitting down and you're like, I want to be an artist, but you have no idea what that means for you. I means for you. Like, stylistically, compositionally, conceptually, like, you are going to be bouncing around all over the place, and the minute that you hit any amount of like, friction or resistance, you are going to go a different direction, you know? And it's, I think that's the one of the most common things that that that's kind of the pitfall for many artists is, like, not clearly defining what any of this is for you, like, what you want it to be, right? And so,

Olya Konell 41:06

you know, and, and so if, if you're an artist getting started, which, or you're, you know, maybe you've been an artist for a while, but you're just getting started with marketing, in your opinion, what is the one marketing tactic that every artist should be using to grow their audience. One, just like, they're going to start with the first Yeah, because there's things, but just to Yeah,

Christopher Remmers 41:30

like, yeah, being that, like, you know, kind of, based on what we were talking about, that they're like, ready to start, like, putting time into marketing, and they have something like, they have a consistent output in terms of their their their art, their product. I mean, for me, it's like, I think of it as the funnel, like, there's the funnel of, like, social media at the top of the funnel, and your job is to get people onto, onto your email list. Like, to start, start some sort of subscriber email list where you can start to nourish and build relationships like one on one with people, and so we use social media. This changed the way that I thought about social media when I flipped to this mentality, right? That it's not about like getting a bunch of likes and being really popular. It's about like telling your story and finding your tribe of people and then getting them off that platform, because then you have control over how you nurture those relationships you have control over if they're going to see your emails and like, all of this stuff, you know, and you decide how that goes from there. How

Olya Konell 42:29

do you really, since we're at this point, how do you get them out, like, off of the platform, like, what do you say? What do you do? What do you post? Like, do you DM them? Like,

Christopher Remmers 42:39

any, yeah, it's a combination of all. But I'd say, like, on the high level is that, like, one thing is, like, where it's so inundated with email subscriptions, you know? Like, I think everyone can relate here. And so I think what separates it is that you want to make sure that you're giving value, right? It's not like, you don't want to just be like, Hey, here's my artwork. Will you buy it, please? Yeah,

Olya Konell 43:01

there's my artwork. Yeah, yeah. Like,

Christopher Remmers 43:05

it's, it's about like, using these platforms to, like, to give value, and then, and then, you know, and then to deliver on that promise that, if you're going to allow this person to give you emails that like you're giving them value in that space, right? And, yeah. And so there's a lot of different ways. Whether it's like, you know, you're an educator, you're an artist, the ways in which you can give values like you either like, invite collectors into kind of the behind the scenes of what your works about, like how you came about doing it, what's your process, like invite them into your studio space and show them that. And just, there's all these ways that you know, because in my experience, like collectors get excited when they feel like they can have a relationship with the artist. It's not like, it's not simply just like, Oh, I like your work. I want to buy it. It's I want to know the story. I want to feel like I know who you are, I want to feel like that's more often than not, what I experienced rather than like. Yes, you get people that just like, they love the image, and they'd rather not talk to you, and they'll just like by your work. That's also true, but it comes through like that, that nourishing those or nurturing those relationships. The other thing I'll say is consistency. You know, I think I don't know what the numbers are. I mean, I know that they've gone way up in terms of, like, the amount of, what do they call like touches, of like, how many times someone sees your product before like, it like, you know, it's, it's something that they actually take action on. It's an unfortunate thing, but it's like, you know, in the world of marketing, like, we need to make sure that we're being consistent output, and that, like, just sharing your work one time and then, like, going silent is like, not going to do it right. People have busy lives. You have no idea, like, what's going on in their life when that hits their inbox. And so this thing of, like, just be can. Consistent. Don't think about that one person that you think that you're bugging too much like just keep building up the practice and being consistent. And you will it will build you will get the results. People will start responding. People will appreciate it. And the people that don't great, they're not your tribe. Don't worry about

Olya Konell 45:18

them. Don't worry about them. Yeah. Well, and a really good point that you made. And other artists have made this before. No person, let me back up, very few people on this planet will buy something that's, you know, 1000s of dollars without having a personal connection to who they're buying it from. It's probably going to be a scammer that wants to, you know, Venmo, you extra and have you send some back, like you're going to get those kinds of inquiries, but if you have a painting listed for, you know, a, you know, any and, and we've had guests mention this where it's like, if I'm selling small studies or prints, those will come off my website. You know, these are affordable, you know, they're within a price range that somebody can buy because they're a fan of the work, but they're, you know, they're not going to be shelling out 1000s of dollars for an original. So if you want to sell originals, you you're not going to get you're not going to do that successfully. If you're just going to treat them like you're selling prints. It's a completely different thing. You know, yes, are more affordable. They're easier to get in front of people. A lot of artists buy prints. Students buy prints. You know, just because I saw this in the chat, target artists are one of the biggest buyers of art. FYI, in case you all didn't know, so just because you have artists following you, artists interested in your work, doesn't mean that they cannot be a collector. A lot of collectors are artists

Christopher Remmers 46:40

and and your most frequent buyers, the previous buyers, and so it's that that is also the thing of like, when I talk, when I talk about, like, nurturing relationships. Like, it really is, like, if someone buys something from you, like, that is, that is, like, an amazing relationship to cultivate for multiple reasons. But like, you know, I mean, it's said that, I have heard this many times that, like a lot of artists, that, and there's their success, like, you know, most of their success came from, like, a handful of consistent clients that were constantly buying from them.

Olya Konell 47:15

Yeah, no, that's that is absolutely, very, very true. One of the things that I want to highlight this, because I saw this in the chat too about Squarespace as well. So, um, so for those that you know, Christopher has a website with artful Squarespace by Faso. I know I mentioned it in the beginning. He's actually one of the main reasons why we decided to dive into it, because we've been contemplating with the idea. And Clint was like, you know, we are our our mission is to inspire artists and to help them with free and paid resources and tools. Okay, and so this totally aligns with what we want to do. We want to help artists, you know, be able to do the things they want to do. And you're a teaching artist, you you know, do a lot of mentorship. We want to be able to provide you with the tools that you need, and we have a lot of artists that are like that. So that is why we built that partnership, to be able to offer it at a much discounted rate, that still allows you to be a part of our Faso BoldBrush community. And so have you when you made the switch, okay, you know, for anyone that's in the audience, that's like, Okay, I want to sell horses, or I want to have certain types of, you know, other print options. Or maybe I want to design my own site, you know, I want a little bit more of that Lego functionality of being able to drop, drag and drop elements, you know, and I want to do that, you know. Would you say that they should explore Squarespace, artful Squarespace. Or would you say that, you know, I guess. What's your advice for artists, like getting started versus, like, wanting to do certain things, which

Christopher Remmers 48:59

would be specific with like, the website, yeah,

Olya Konell 49:01

yeah. Like which, which is a better fit, I guess. Yeah,

Christopher Remmers 49:04

I love what i've what I've set up with you guys, through, through Squarespace, you know. And I think it's primarily for me, like, I just, I wanted to have a little bit more hands on design control over curating the experience on my website. It's simply that I think that's the and that's, that's not a small thing. And, like, and then, in addition to that, having the added support that you're not going to get from just joining Squarespace, like, having been that you're a part of a community where you can get, you know, you can get marketing advice, and you can, you can help, you know, get your name out there and get your product out there. I mean, there's a lot of added benefit in terms of, you know, again, just working with Squarespace directly, like, you know, you guys specialize in helping artists specifically around website and around marketing and around branding and all that. And so to me, it's just, it's like the best of both worlds. You get, like, an excellent website. Builder and the community involved with it,

Olya Konell 50:03

that's awesome. And we're, we're, we're just excited to watch your your journey and all the things that you're doing, and the site turned out absolutely beautiful. But, yeah, we, we've had quite artists asks like, hey, you know what is a better fit for me and that sort of thing. And I think it really just depends on what you just said. Do you want more control, or do you want something more plug and play? You know, because, going back to the big marketing picture, the funnel that you just that, you just that you described, which is like your social media, all the public events you go to all the different things that you do, you know that is kind of your funnel, or funnels, if you have multiple and at the end of the day, you're directing them to one place and so and that, if you're an artist that wants to sell your worker or, you know, build that audience that you actually own through your newsletter, you need a site. Even if it's a basic site, you need some place to send people to. But also this is so important. If you build a website and you don't have that funnel, and you're not doing those things, it's like opening a store and not telling anyone about it, like, no one's going to walk in there if you don't put a sign up, no one's going to walk in there if you don't like, hey, you know, and now you know the grand opening. Like, you need to do those things just like you would in real life.

Angela Agosto 51:22

Yeah, your LinkedIn. Well,

Christopher Remmers 51:24

the other thing too to say is, like, depending on where you are on the journey, like, as, if you're, like, just beginner, like, never had a website before, you know, I think, like, starting with, like, the basic Faso setup, right? Because then you don't have to think about it. You guys have templates and, like, you don't have to get into this whole world of, like, designing and doing all this stuff, and you can start there, and then as you sort of grow, this is similar to what I did. Then I, like, had space, and then I wanted to, like, have more of a hand in designing and curating the experience. And so then that going over to Squarespace with you guys allowed me to then, kind of like, grow into what I had. So I would say, like, if you're just straight out beginning, like, I would kind of go along that trajectory answer, and

Angela Agosto 52:07

because people are always confused in asking, what's better? And basically, like you said, if you don't want to do anything, you just want to be in your studio. You don't, you know, what we offer is design with artists and collectors in mind. Or Squarespace, the artful score space. It is where you want to design, you know, to match your brand, or, you know, you want to kind of have a hand in, because you do courses or mentorships or whatever. So yeah, that was like the perfect explanation.

Olya Konell 52:32

And one thing I wanted to share for those of you guys are like, well, I don't know what to post on social media. I need more help with marketing. I don't know. I don't even know what to say. So, so I'm going to back up a little bit in our all of our members and and all of our customers, whether they're on Squarespace or on artful Squarespace, or just by Faso or Faso itself. In this marketing community, there's a place called start here. So if for any of our members that are watching this right now, and you're like, Well, I don't you log in to your Faso. You go to marketing, and then you go into this community, and then there's a place called start here, and it tells you, it basically teaches you about, there's a getting started guide, art marketing ebook that kind of explains how to market art in general, email marketing, the BoldBrush way, and then, actually, this is a very good one improve your sales ability. Because some of us feel awkward talking to people. We feel it's almost like the imposter syndrome when it comes to actually making a sale. We feel weird. This will help you, and then once you're done going through those you would if you need help, and knowing what to do, or having a calendar of what to do and when to do it, and having some sort of a framework for a first schedule. We have an art marketing calendar that we update every month. And on there, there is a posting idea every single day. So if you just need to brainstorm what to write about in your newsletter or what to post about, you could actually connect this to your Google Calendar, or you could just save the link to the spreadsheet and be able to access it. So, you know, this is where this is, this is where we can't answer some of your questions on the webinar specifically, but we have tools for that, and we have resources. So if you need help with that, that's where you would go. But you know, in general, we're trying to kind of get, like a high level overview of some of the best practices and strategies and things like that on this particular session. One of the things that I wanted to touch base on So, and you talked about it previously, and I saw people ask questions about it in the chat. Was the conscious creativity, course. So what inspired you to start that, I mean it, besides just, you know, this is something that you were passionate about, or, you know, was it being. Because you wanted to diversify your income. I remember you mentioning that. I mean, these are real questions, because maybe there's somebody in the audience that says, hey, I have something to teach, and I want to teach something I want to offer, you know, educational stuff. Maybe I want to make some courses. What advice do you have to those artists that want to start, you know what inspired you? And how can you recommend they get into it? Yeah,

Christopher Remmers 55:25

yeah. So, I mean, there was a few things that inspired it. One, I mean, kind of going all the way back to when I was a student at the Georgetown Atelier, is I just I discovered that I love to teach. While I was a student, my my teacher invited me to start teaching, and I just, I really, really enjoyed it, and but it was, like, it was a particular type of thing that I liked to teach. Like, I like teaching technique, but it's not, it's not the main thing that I love to teach. I like, I like helping people kind of problem solve, like, what it is that they want to like, bring into the world? What is it they want to say, what is like? What are their creative ideas, and what are ways that they can explore that? And like, how do we think of like, being an artist? And from this perspective of like, a whole systems design, right? It's not just about the craft in the business. There's this whole other part of it, which is, like, what I talk about is like taking care of the vessel, right? It's like me and like, I'm putting all these demands on this person to show up and do all these things, and I need to make sure that I'm taken care of and that I can optimize, you know, like my creative output and feel good, and feel like, you know, like I'm enjoying the process, and that, like I believe in myself, and that, like, I feel good about the ideas that I'm bringing into the world, and this whole idea, like, around cultivating your creative capacity, right? And so it comes back to, like, why I am an artist. The thing that that precedes, like the craft was, like these things that I was interested in and exploring and navigating, either through, like meditation practice, or, like retreats, or whatever it was that I found, like, holy cow, there's like this wellspring of tapping into this through this direct process of, like, trying to get to know myself and that. So anyway, I found like that was the place that I really thrived as as a teacher, and how that grouped in with the technical and so it was just this process of one be like, What do I wish like I had when I was kind of coming up as an artist, which was like, I wish I had someone like, as, like a coach in my corner that was like, helping me kind of figure out the right direction to go, like, where to focus my attention and my energy, how to balance my lifestyle and all that stuff, and just someone that had kind of been through that process. So that was, that was the big inspiration, was to, like, start doing that. And that organically happened at the atelier. Like I was, I started to, like, have relationships with the students that were kind of on that capacity outside of teaching them how to paint and draw. And then that turned into sort of like, one on one, coaching outside once I graduated, and then it kind of grew from there. I was like, Okay, there's something here that like, Yeah, I think people really value and and so that was one part of it. The other part is that, you know, like any business you know, it goes through, it goes through seasons and cycles, and it's, it's no different for artists. And I think sometimes, you know, especially in recent years with everything that's been going on, you know, overseas and politically and all this stuff like, you know it, you can, you can experience seasons where you might not sell work for months at a time, and depending on the kind of work, for me, like my my work is is a high ticket item, and it doesn't sell very fast oftentimes. And so when things are there's like a looming recession, and there's like all this stuff happening globally that's going to affect the art market. And so for me, I just wanted to make sure that I had diversified my income streams to where, like, I could, I could consistently keep, be putting, or be showing up to the studio. And that coincided with starting a family, and then, like, you know, this ongoing conversation that I'd been having with my wife, of like, wanting to work together, and so that kind of, that's how it all came to be. Came to be, yeah, yeah. Um, what was the other the second question.

Olya Konell 59:28

So if there's other artists out there that are in the same boat, paintings aren't, you know, they want to diversify their income. Maybe they want to get into creating a course. Or maybe they've, because they've achieved a certain level of mastery, and they have something that they could offer in some level, you know, any advice on getting started like, because they might have this idea. They might have conquered all these other mountains, and now they're ready to bring in some additional income. You know, it. Any recommendations of where they can learn?

Christopher Remmers 1:00:04

Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost, like to sit and ask the question of, like, what do you want your life to look like? Like, what you know, I gotta have my students go through this exercise of like, dream up the adventure of a lifetime that you can imagine for yourself. Like, down to the detail of like, the kinds of paintings, the types of clients, like how you sell your work, where you live, how much time you spend in the studio, how much time you spend doing all these other things like that. Because it has to resonate. Like, if it's not something that you want to do, then it's just going to be a slog. It's going to be an uphill battle the whole time. And so like, if you've enjoyed teaching and creating courses. Then, like, Yes, do it. If it doesn't feel like it's in your wheelhouse and it's something that you would find joy doing. Then there's other ways that you can you can figure that out in terms of, if you want to go the direction of creating courses or educational content around your art. I think it's an incredible way to to diversify your income, and it makes you a better painter. It gives you a deeper understanding of your own process, right? I mean, there's that adage of, you know, you know, if you teach what you know, you're going to become, you're going to become much more knowledgeable of, like, your own craft and doing so. You're going to become better at it because of it, because you're, you're constantly interfacing with, like, your own process and how to make it better and all that. So it's, I think it has made me a better artist and a better business person all around by doing that, because you're also then kind of held accountable, right? It's different than if you're not having to deal with people all the time. When you have students like you have a responsibility and an obligation, and so it it helps you show up in a way that you might not otherwise, with consistency. Yeah, and, and I like that. I you know, I think finding ways to hold ourselves accountable on different levels is it's such a good thing to do whether you do it with friends, whether you do it with other, you know, with students, whether you do it with whoever you can, you know, let people know what your goals are, and create like a system around that to keep you on task. In terms of like, specifically, if you want to do courses, I went, like, a very particular way. I ended up working with a company that that helps, course, creators thrive and create, like, what they call, like a legacy business, like something for people that want to like, they're not just doing this for sort of a short term kind of go. You're like, really trying to understand how to create a business, it's going to last a long time, and that was the route I go. There's a lot of those companies out there. Yeah, yes. So, so I work with a company, and now I'm part of, like a mastermind group with them, and they're called the authority accelerator, and it's not specifically for artists. There are artists that run through that program. And, and it's a very, very robust program. I mean, it's and it's lifetime access. And so they teach you everything from, I mean, they like, they teach people, even if they don't even know what they want to teach how to, like, start, right? Like, they don't have a subject that they know. They're like, I just want to try this out. And so they like, they they know how to do it, even if you don't have the thing to help you kind of discover what your expertise is. But for those of you that know, like, they teach you the whole gamut of like, how to build interest, how to brand, how to market, how to build the course itself, the right platforms, to use the tech, everything right and, and so that's, that's the route that we went, and it's been, it's been really great for us. And like I said, we, we then, you know, last year, like, they did a little mini documentary film about us, and like, our success that we've had in the program, and we're, like, part of a mastermind with them now. So it's been really great. But like I said, there's a ton of there's a ton of programs out there. If someone wants to know more, feel free to reach out to me. I'm happy to share because there are also a lot of like, scams and charlatans out there trying to teach people how to sell courses. So it's just part of the world today. I mean, online education is, like, I think one of the fastest growing industries in the world right now, and and so there's a lot of people that have a lot of BS programs. So you need to be careful.

Olya Konell 1:04:31

It's true, yeah, and yeah. And that is such good advice. And thank you for sharing. I wanted to touch on that because we get that question in our ama is, like, I want to do this, but I don't even know where to begin. And so yeah, we don't provide that framework. We can tell you, this is something you can do, but we love connecting with and one thing to know, you do offer mentorship and those types of things. So if you want to learn from Christopher, you can connect with him. We've shared his links. Um. Um, because having a mentor does help. One of the things I tackled a couple years ago was learning about YouTube, and I joined a group, and I paid for the course. I would join their like they had, like a mastermind thing afterwards, and it was the most, it was the most I'd spent on education out, you know, like on a thing, but it was the most valuable thing that I had done. I learned so much. And so I even though I am a self paced learner, I learned on YouTube all the time or on reading. So it still helps. And I think that it makes you more accountable to learning and getting those things done if you've invested a penny, a pretty penny, and so, yeah, you're gonna more likely use that knowledge. So for 100% somebody was saying, I have a lot of ideas, but pulling it together is an issue, accountability, a mentor. Those are things that help me, finding somebody that can be that for you, or connecting with somebody who offers that.

Christopher Remmers 1:05:59

Yeah, and that's a, that's a good point too. I've, I mean, going all the way back the long time, I've had mentors and coaches along every step of the way, whether it's in, like, the craft and the art development or the business or whatever. Like, lean on those resources, and you are rarely going to regret investing in yourself. Like, it's just, you know, like, of all the things we could spend money on, like, invest that in yourself and your own education and getting better at what it is that you love to do, and, yeah, that no one can take away from you, right? Yeah,

Angela Agosto 1:06:34

yeah. And also probably help you understand what you don't want to do, so that you don't spend

Christopher Remmers 1:06:38

Right, right? That's huge. Yeah,

Olya Konell 1:06:42

that is huge. And that is, that is important. And you don't know what you don't know, you know, and if, if you're somebody that's like, hey, you know, I, I, I'm trying to figure out this whole Instagram thing, which I know we're a little bit over on time. And thanks for you guys for for for hanging on, but like on Instagram thing, one of the things you you know you're doing well on is Instagram, but Instagram has its own issues, and you know, one of those is censorship, and I saw somebody ask about that in in, in the chat. But you're always having to learn. You're always having to in innovate. You're always having to figure out, well, if this isn't working, I got to do this. And I that just comes with that. Just comes with the act of trying to get your work out there. You know, I Right, right. Always problem solving.

Christopher Remmers 1:07:35

Well, I think that's a good point too. Just real quick is like what I said earlier, adaptability. Like, if you try one way and it's not working for you, like, yeah, like, you know, the idea is, like, design, what it is that you want your life to look like, and then, and then do whatever you need to do in order to get that right. Like, don't stop after trying one thing or two thing, or, frankly, even three things, like, keep going until you hit the thing that works specifically for you, and that might be way different than anybody else you know and like, I think that's the thing that really will help you endure and thrive in the long run, is just like stopping at nothing to figure out how to, like, creatively, solve that problem for yourself. Yeah, and

Olya Konell 1:08:18

one really good resource that I love, just sharing this if you want to learn how to do something. Like, I really like this shot right here. So I love how you took this video of your wife taking a picture right like, I love this. This is a story. This is the story of the creation of the painting. Like, when you mentioned storytelling, you can do that through your social media in so many ways. And if you're you kind of suck at that, the best way you can learn for free is to go to somebody else's Instagram that you really like, how they're doing it and they're doing it well, like this post right here. It's like, okay, how can I recreate this with what I do? How can I create a little unveiling? Maybe have a friend pretend they're taking a picture. You know what I mean? Like, you can get ideas for free online by seeing other successful people and make them your own. For those of you that have fun with it, have fun with exactly have have fun with it. And just to kind of nail nail this in some more like everything that you talked about, and I know everybody's like, we want to learn more about marketing, and you can't market your work, if you don't have this figured out, if your story sucks, your marketing is going to suck. That's plainly put, like, what are you trying to What are you trying to share? If you don't have a story, if your story is 11 by, you know, or 24 by by 36 and then you have the title of the painting, that's not a story like you need more than that, and because just posting that online in you know, as part of your funnel is not going to really do anything for you, because I was just a beautiful picture. There's lots of beautiful pictures. You need something more than that, and so once you have that figured out, then it makes it so much easier for you just to throw out these creative. Of beautiful, curated little peeks into your studio. And you know, I love what, what you've done. It's fantastic. Yeah, one thing, and I know I'm so sorry I taking you over your time, but,

Christopher Remmers 1:10:15

oh, I thought we were talking for a lot longer,

Olya Konell 1:10:20

well. And I try to be sensitive, you know, to like, if somebody doesn't mind going over, then that's okay. I wanted to, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self as an artist, what would it be? Or, you know, what would be like?

Angela Agosto 1:10:38

I love that question. Yeah,

Christopher Remmers 1:10:42

this thing just came up really powerfully for me recently. I think it's two parts. I think first and foremost was trust myself. I think so often, early on, like we have a we have an idea, we get excited about something, and we don't, we don't like believe in ourselves. We don't trust ourselves. The like, that it's actually something that's worth spending our time doing, and you don't really know until you've given enough of your attention for long enough to see what it can become. And so I think that, like the big message, and then in terms of just, you know, taking, take the time to get really clear on what you want. You know, I think I waited a long time before I took that seriously in terms of my artwork and where I wanted to go. So I think those two things, like, trust that that what you want to bring into the world has value and it's worth it and and stay the course and get really clear on it as much as you can and like, just keep going. Yeah,

Olya Konell 1:11:44

that is so true, because your intuition, you know, even science, can't fully explain all aspects of our intuition, you know, yes, it's coming from our brain, but there's like, a deeper knowing and that trust, I think is important, because self doubt is a huge, I think, enemy of all of us. You know that the oh, I mean, it's good to question things, but you know, there's a certain level of of trust that we need, that we need to have, yeah, yeah.

Christopher Remmers 1:12:14

Well, we don't know. We don't know until we commit, right? Like, otherwise, is what I say oftentimes in students, is like, you're just digging many shallow wells and like, like you, you have to give yourself enough time to prove that you can actually make something that's that's valuable, that's great. You have to dedicate and practice it. So yeah,

Olya Konell 1:12:36

and people can sense that authenticity. They can sense that passion. So if you're not passionate, you're about what it is that you're doing, because you've you know, you're doing everything at the surface level, even though somebody might be looking at your work or watching you online, creating the creating the work, whatever it is, it's in how you write, it's in how you speak, it's in everything that you do, that that vibe can be sensed through the Internet. Call me crazy, but there's people that I'll be you know, you just see somebody and you're like, wow, they're magnetic. I want to learn more about their story. And then you become excited about whatever it is that they are creating. And so I that's how it especially for artists, it's not just about your painting. It's about you. If you're not putting yourself out there, it's gonna, I mean, unless your banks, Banksy, right? Like, that's part of who he is, is the fact that no one knows, you know, yeah,

Christopher Remmers 1:13:30

it's all that's still a story, and it's still a story, yeah, yeah,

Olya Konell 1:13:34

yeah. So that's the, you know, a big marketing tip is, is figure out how to put yourself out there. And if you're shy, if you have stage fright, you feel uncomfortable, learning, diving deeper into yourself, becoming comfortable with you, I think, will make it easier for you to get yourself out there as well.

Angela Agosto 1:13:53

Yeah, showing your work and your interactions, and like you said, in your stories and your writing,

Olya Konell 1:13:59

you probably already talked about this, but what about where's the best place to learn about how to post on Instagram? So my recommendation is YouTube. And you would type in, go to YouTube and type in Instagram tutorial, 2025 Instagram tutorial, and put in the year so you get videos that are relevant, and make sure that the video was didn't just change the title that it was posted, because somebody will give you a full tutorial on how to use the platform. And then you can get more specific, like how to make reels, good reels, how to edit a video, how to do this. And you can learn for free just by watching these. If you're a customer, we do have some video editing videos, how to stuff kind of core basics in our video library. You can dive in into that. And there was one more question I wanted to grab from the chat. Somebody was saying, when can we change our email to professional email, and then info at your name.com so if you have a. Website you should be you should, for sure, have that, and if you don't have a website, that usually comes with your website most of the time, so like Faso or Squarespace, Squarespace uses Google, so you get the Google one. But I would do that from the get go. It just makes it easier, especially if you're already setting up a site.

Angela Agosto 1:15:18

I just wanted to say using info. We did learn from our web provider, our email provider, I'm sorry that using info sometimes blocks, like a lot, oh, those block anything that has info with your domain. So they're like, not to use that. Maybe just use Frank at you know, because it was Frank's question instead of info. So I just kind of wanted to make you all aware.

Olya Konell 1:15:39

yeah, good, good advice. Any? I just wanted to grab those because they popped up and kind of going back to, kind of land the plane. And to wrap this up, if there was, you know, if, if the audience wants to connect with you, join your course, or stay updated. What's the best way that they can do that?

Christopher Remmers 1:16:03

Yeah, I mean, Instagram is the place where we're the most active right now. But there's, there's a couple links. One, you can go to my website and check out the courses which I think you guys have posted. You can post the link now, I'll give you a little bit of kind of the high level information of what we offer. But really the best way, and that I that I do, is you can, you can book a live zoom call with me for a half an hour. It's free. It's totally pressure free, and you can ask me whatever questions you want about the academy and about all that stuff. And so, yeah, that's really the best thing to do that's awesome.

Olya Konell 1:16:41

I love that, and we've shared the links with you guys. I will actually drop these in your follow up emails as well. So when you guys get that tomorrow, if you didn't get a chance to grab it, you'll have that, and you can take advantage of that. Yeah, thank you so much for Yeah, thank you for having me on here. Yeah, kind of like a crash course and as many different while we need to do it, yeah,

Christopher Remmers 1:17:06

yeah. I mean, I'm happy if there's any more questions. I've got space if, if we want to hit a couple more, but if you guys got to go, I understand too. But yeah,

Olya Konell 1:17:17

yeah, if anybody has any last questions, and I know there were some in the chat scrolling through, yeah, a recent thing.

Angela Agosto 1:17:23

You make sure you read those. Christopher, yeah. And

Olya Konell 1:17:25

if you guys want, yeah,

Christopher Remmers 1:17:26

I have been, I will be passing my wife's in here too. So, oh yeah, yeah. She's, she's really the mastermind behind my, my social media these days. She's, she's, like, amazing with all of that.

Olya Konell 1:17:40

I know what, what I would love to have you both back together. Would that be okay sometime, like, you know, we'll give it time,

Christopher Remmers 1:17:46

which, yeah, I would love to, I think she would be, yeah,

Olya Konell 1:17:49

okay, we'll have to chat. Yeah. Here, like, from

Angela Agosto 1:17:52

a lot of artists that they select the spouse, sometimes it really does, yeah, stuff, you know, like,

Christopher Remmers 1:17:57

she just said, Sure.

Olya Konell 1:17:58

So awesome, you know,

Angela Agosto 1:18:01

question for you, one last question. The Joseph Campbell, which books? I know my daughter actually reads it for her school. She's in film, but, oh yeah, which one of his books

Christopher Remmers 1:18:11

there's, there's a few. I mean, the hero of 1000 Faces is like, kind of the go to I mean, yeah, he's got a lot of books, but that one really talks about kind of the mono myth and, like his whole ethos around mythology. Yeah,

Angela Agosto 1:18:26

that's funny, because she's a sharing writer, and she's studying in London, and that's the book that they recommended, which is why we got it for her for for Christmas. The Joseph Campbell, what you just mentioned, the heroes, yeah,

Olya Konell 1:18:36

shared it in, in in the chat. And I actually just a quick by the way, if you will have any thank yous comments, I'll forward everything to Christopher afterwards, so feel free to drop things in the chat. But somebody was saying, I'm a realtor, and this information also applies to my real estate business too. Actually, yes, I have friends that are in real estate, and the ones that are doing well have put a very personal touch to how they're share, you know, like, what they post about their listings, and the things that they do, so and, and, yeah, I concur. Yeah,

Christopher Remmers 1:19:10

yeah. Real quick. I saw Steve asked this a couple times, and Steve 100% nudity has affected how I post on Instagram. I can't post it anymore, so we've, like completely changed our strategy to to keep that off, and I unfortunately don't have a clear answer on how to navigate that. Currently, hoping that matters, new change in policy might affect that, but doubtful.

Olya Konell 1:19:39

Yeah, and there's one more that I see, do you take on commissions in addition to creating your own work, or do you find these requests aligned with what you're already doing?

Christopher Remmers 1:19:48

Yeah, I do, actually, that's, that's the majority of my work outside of the academy. And you know, it took some time to get there, but I'm able to be very selective and cherry. Tech, the kind of commissions that come on on my plate, and so that's, yeah, I like, I, I'm working on personal work slowly, but most of the paintings that I do recently have been commission work. And for, for, like, course, content, Oh,

Olya Konell 1:20:15

that's amazing. That's awesome. And I, I think I there's, I've heard both sides of the camp. You know, some people run away from commissions, but I think if you do it right, where you a lot, as long as it aligns with who you are and what you do, commissions can be quite enjoyable.

Christopher Remmers 1:20:30

Yeah. I mean, you like, even from the get go, you can be in the driver's seat of that. Like, if someone comes to you and you know you're painting whatever, like people see that you know how to paint, and then suddenly you're like, Oh, you can paint my dog, or you can paint a portrait, or you can paint this. And like, rather than just like, we either say yes and then we end up doing a bunch of work that we don't want to be doing. Or you can be like, Thanks for reaching out. Like, I don't know if you've taken a look at my work, but this is the type of work that I do. How can your vision of what you want fit into this. And like, you know, give your like, give them the opportunity to like, or like, kind of, you know, like, direct the conversation to where you can be in the design seat of like, how you want those pieces to go, so that it works for both of you. And do that in the beginning more and more. And then then you'll get to a place where you are your your commission work is not much different than the work you would be doing personally. So it's

Olya Konell 1:21:26

very, yeah, very cohesive. I love that. That is a very good tip, and I will actually have to remember that. But yeah, thank you so much you guys for your questions, and thank you so much for your feedback and advice. I'm excited to have you both back sometime soon. We'll, you know, we'll give you some time, we'll give you a break. We have a lot going on, but we'd love to have that. It'd be fun. And you've launched this stuff, and then you can come back. Yeah, we can kind of touch base. And then thank you to the audience, for those of us, to everybody that's hung on, and the recording will be sent out to members next week, and non members posted to our BoldBrush newsletter. And I'll send you some clips, Christopher, I'll send you some like, reels and stuff that you can Oh, great.

Christopher Remmers 1:22:14

That would be wonderful. Yes, thank you everybody. Yeah, thanks for having me on here again, and thank you all for for your attention and and all the wonderful questions. Yes,

Olya Konell 1:22:24

thank you so much. Take care. Have a creative rest of your week. You.

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