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For today’s episode we sat down with Alyse Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of live painting at music festivals where she learned to paint intuitively “with the music.” She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, art college, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full-time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full-time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking, since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people, and learning basic marketing because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible artists often do well. Alyse also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors (e.g., newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards) and reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually, through small, steady steps rather than a single “big break.” Finally, Alyse tells us about her upcoming group show “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty” at Threyda Gallery in Denver, opening May 1, 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website.

Alyse’s FASO Site:
alyserussell.com/

Alyse’s Social Media:
instagram.com/alysefireflyart
facebook.com/AlyseFireflyArt/

Threyda Gallery “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty”
threyda.com/pages/gallery

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Transcript:

Alyse Russell: 0:00

If you consistently put yourself out there, are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice. I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s it’s about perseverance. If you can have all the skill skill in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re going to sell any of them.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:18

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a gold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Elise Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of life painting at music festivals, where she learned to paint intuitively with the music. She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, Art College, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking Since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people and learning basic marketing, because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible, artists often do well. Elise also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors through newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards, and also reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually through small, steady steps rather than a single big break. Finally, Elise tells us about her upcoming group show, Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty at three to Gallery in Denver, opening may 1 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website. Welcome Elise to The FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Alyse Russell: 2:18

I’m good. I’m good. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Laura Arango Baier: 2:22

I’m good. I’m excited to have you, because I think your work is so beautiful. I love the blending of the surreal and the figurative, especially figurative because I am also a figurative artist, and I love seeing how other artists express all of the different ways that we can celebrate the human body and make it interesting and beautiful and decorative. So I am excited to chat with you, also because you recently won the BoldBrush contest, and that’s actually how I saw your work, and was like, Oh my gosh, I got to interview her. So I’m happy to have you. So thank you for being here, and also thank you for being here with a very pained voice. So if you need to take little breaks, you can

Alyse Russell: 3:06

appreciate it,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:08

of course. And then before we dive into your actual work, your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Alyse Russell: 3:18

Well, I both times figurative artists. I actually recently dove back into painting full time, but it’s been a part of my life for a long time now, and I enjoy working on studio and all different types of settings, live, painting, traveling. I love traveling and music, and that’s pretty that’s pretty much all I have time for in my life this point. So, you know, not, not much else, not much else to me. I have three dogs that I love. And yes, that’s, that’s what encompasses most of my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Awesome, yeah. And I really love the live music aspect, because you’d mentioned to me, actually, that that inadvertently led you into becoming a full time artist, which I am so curious to hear about that. But also, like, did your path to becoming an artist start before that? Or, how did that get going for you?

Alyse Russell: 4:28

Um, it did. Yeah, I went to, I mean, I’ve always been, like, creatively inclined, like my whole ever since I, you know, as a small child, I think, and so I then I went to, like a magnet Art High School, and that’s where I have started learning more technique. It was very much just into the fun fundamentals, both realism and like design or design oriented. Said classes. And that’s where I first started oil painting. We had like a figure day and a still life day. And I was always really drawn to the painting. The figure from, from, really from, from that point. It was a little bit, I think it got a little bit tiring just because of, you know, being in school and having it be repetitive and, like, demanding. But I always enjoyed, enjoyed the figurative classes, that’s pretty much what started my my interest in realism and painting and then, but I didn’t really see myself as just becoming a painter. I figured that I would go into, like, a art adjacent type of field that be a little more stable, like, I don’t know what I hadn’t really gotten that far yet in my but maybe something in, like, fashion design, or something like, I considered maybe like art therapist, you know. So something related, but that has a more defined, like, career trajectory, yeah. And then I I actually had had left. I did go to F where art college, and I left there my senior year. I had some family, and my mom was sick at the time, so I come home, and I was, you know, working a part time job, and I started meeting some people who were doing live painting at, like, small music and arts events in Baltimore and I, I had shared some of my work with them, and they invited me to paint, which is, is very fun. It’s very different from a studio practice. So takes some getting used to, especially because, like everyone, at least at the time that I was painting with painted in acrylics, which is much more manageable when you’re painting in a in a venue live. But I I don’t like acrylics. I’ve actually gotten a little more into them in recent years, just as, like, a sort of under painting kind of basis, um, but at the time, I was like, No, I hate this plastic paint, and I don’t, I want to bring oil to all the events, which I did. So that was a little bit of a learning curve to be able to, you know, cleaning up is kind of a mess, like when you don’t have an art studio and everything. But yeah, it was, it was very fun. And it was, there’s something about like I would paint a little bit more intuitively. I’m sort of going with the music, so to say, and I would like, I would have a figure reference, right, like, to kind of be the main focal point of the painting, and then for the rest of the painting, I would kind of intuitively add more surreal effects, or, like, floral that kind of thing, into the work. And that’s kind of how my my voice developed, as far as, like, what I’d like to paint, and, yeah, you just kind of evolve from there. I yeah, I started doing more, more live painting. And it’s something where, like, at parts with the small, smaller events. It’s something where you might just, just be live painting, or you might have, you know, prints for sale, like, just, like paper prints for sale, something like that. And then from there that went to painting at larger but not huge festivals. I don’t do any of the like, really large ones, but bigger festivals, which would have, like a whole gallery set up, and then the live painting as well. So which, yeah, it’s super fun, and I still love to do. I don’t do as as many anymore as I used to, but I still at least do a couple festivals a year. And, yeah, I still love it. It’s, it’s. Tiring, and it’s a lot to kind of paint in that environment, but it’s very fun, and I think you do get some you have to kind of think quickly, or you won’t be putting a painting together. So it’s it’s a good place to kind of branch out and have more intuitive work and maybe surprise yourself a little bit with what you would want to put in a painting. Yeah, and I do like, I do a little like for the long for the festivals, it would be like three to three days of painting. So I do plan a little bit for the for the painting, but I don’t plan like every detail like I would maybe a longer studio piece. So it can be kind of fun that way. And just being inspired by the other live painters and the music and just the different setting and like the, you know, it’s definitely brings its own vibe to the painting. And, you know, it’s is visually inspiring, and, you know, musically inspiring. And I think that does kind of come across in the in the work, or influence the work, which is, yeah, very enjoyable, I think, and something that a lot, not everyone, has gotten to experience, painting that way,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:32

yeah. I mean, just hearing about it, I feel a little bit stressed.

Alyse Russell: 11:38

It can be, oh my gosh, I will tell you, is a little bit of a side tangent. But the last year, I painted at Mountain Music Festival in West Virginia, and I was actually starting out with an acrylic under painting, which I’ve started doing now at festivals, just to make with the dry times and everything, just so I can get something down wet into wet paint the entire time. And I was asked, or they had given, a lot of the artists an opportunity to paint with one of the bands on stage. So that was very fun. I painted for a bluegrass band called Shadow grass, and I was on stage with them, like, not directly with them, but there was, like, a portion of the stage that they had kind of curtains off so that you were away from the band’s stuff. And you know, it, it was, it was kind of last minute, like, I didn’t know, going into this festival that I was going to be at this, and I was painting it acrylics that I was, I You couldn’t, you know, bring oil onto the stage for like, safety reasons with the turpentine, like, you know, that kind of stuff. So I had to, like, I didn’t have a lot of paint. That was, like, I had only brought, like, I think I was just doing under, under painting and like, a kind of terror about that sort of color. I don’t think it was called, like, whatever the acrylic paints called, I don’t know, but it was like, it was like, a terror about the color, and that’s all I had brought. So basically, get gather a bunch of paint from other people so that I could have a, you know, a palette to continue the painting up there. And it was live, and there was, you know, a whole audience watching me. It was very stressful. It was very stressful. It was very fun, though. And I, you know, I don’t think I’ve ever painted that quickly in my entire life, because it was like everyone is whole audience staring at me, and I’m, like, trying to make it look like fun for everyone, like I’m doing something, and I’m not just, you know how painting is, like, a lot of the time you’re really just like, staring at your painting. So very entertaining for people, I don’t think so. I was trying to, like, really be expressive and, like, to, you know, painting the whole time, and I got the entire figure blocked in, like, I think it was like a, it was even, I think it was a 24 by 30. Actually, it’s a piece that I, I started. I started this piece at Mountain Music Festival last year. It’s actually going in this upcoming show that I have as well. So, so yeah, so that’s a fun coincidence. But yeah, it sorry. So side tangent, but talking about a big, stressful live painting that was about the most high stress situation. It was very fun, but it was definitely like I felt like a lot of pressure,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:58

for sure, for sure. Sure, which you know two things about that one, I bet you know, to some extent it’s like, you probably don’t get that much, you know, people looking at you the entire time when you’re normally, you know, working on in your stall, like on your paintings at the music festivals. But also I feel like, uh, probably your experience at magnet school may have, uh, prepared you pretty well, because I know that this, I mean, I also went to a magnet school, so I know that it’s extremely stressful and, like, demanding high it’s like the amount of criticism and judgment and workload is insane, so it must be nice to at least channel it in a happier location.

Alyse Russell: 15:46

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, I think it said. I think that did prepare me for and just the gradual that, and like, getting ready for gallery shows and different things, like, there’s other high stress situations definitely helped prepare me for that. And it’s also, it’s like, once I was up there, there wasn’t anything I could do about it. So then I then I pretty much was just enjoying myself once I got kind of into it, you know? But, yeah, I would stop to like, you know, you naturally stop when you’re painting to like, just like, observe your painting and see what your corrections you need to make, or, you know, whatever. And I would, every time I would stop, I’d be like, Oh no, I need to paint more, because there’s all these people watching me, you know. And it was, it was, it was very fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:43

That’s really awesome too, because, you know, like you mentioned before, there’s a certain level of intuitive painting that has to happen. Since you’re on the spot, you’re being watched, and it’s, of course, you can’t, like you said, you plant some but then you also have all the unexpected things, like how that happened, where you’re suddenly in front of everybody, or just like, I bet, also, because I did want to ask you about, you know, what your greatest inspiration and influence is, I’m assuming also, you know, to some extent, like the music itself also inspires you to move in a particular color range with your work or in a particular emotion, right?

Alyse Russell: 17:26

Yes, I guess they think so. It definitely has a has a big influence. I think it’s more subconscious. Like, I don’t put a lot of real thought into like, Oh, I’m hearing it, or I’m seeing that. It’s kind of just a subconscious like process. I think that it’s definitely made my paintings more colorful. Um, I think it’s a very colorful environment, so I think that that has was definitely way that it influenced my work. I Yeah, and then just, it’s kind of a, you know, just the the feeling, like the emotional tone of the festival, I think is a big, big influence. Um, yeah. I otherwise, like I, you know, it’s funny, I don’t listen to music a lot when I paint anymore in the studio sometimes, but I don’t know, I usually just have some random background noise on so that I don’t get like. I’ll either get like too hyper, focused, or what I’m doing forget to eat, or, you know, stuff like that, or I or I’m like, I’ll stop because there’s no background noise. So I just have like a TV on, or something like, I won’t be paying attention to it, but I just have like, something on in the background. And, yeah, as far as other artists influence, um, I don’t know. I think you know, of course, like any of the greats and like real, you know, John Singer, Sergeant, they call the normal things that everyone says, I guess, um, then I do love some oh my gosh, that’s his name. Of course, it’s like, I can never think of anyone’s names when I want that, even if I’m very familiar. I

Laura Arango Baier: 19:33

really

Alyse Russell: 19:37

Oh my gosh. Him is Oh. It’ll come back to me. It’ll come back to me later. Why my brain does that? But it’s just like, I don’t know.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:51

Yeah. Like you get asked, and suddenly you forget. It happens to me too. I swear I know things. Yeah. Know who I’m talking about. It’ll come back. So no worries, when you remember, you can you can mention it

Alyse Russell: 20:06

got you, yeah, it’ll when I stop trying to think of

Laura Arango Baier: 20:09

it Exactly, that’s exactly how it works. But yeah, yeah, I think a lot of those old masters, and you know, the more recent masters, are also really great influences, especially for figurative and realistic work. And then I wanted to ask you as well, when you get an idea, you know, where does it begin? Does it start with, like an image or a feeling? How does, how does a piece start for you? And then, what is that process like?

Alyse Russell: 20:43

Um, I think there’s two kinds of ways, usually like, depending on if I am shooting all my own reference photos or not. Because I don’t always, like, I would love to have time and everything to to shoot everything myself, as far as the figure reference. Um, but when I don’t, especially when I’m a lot of times when I’m live painting, or when I’m doing, like, these quick things, I don’t have time to, like, prepare all of that beforehand. So I will use pose space, and I’ll just, so basically, I’ll think of, like, you know, it’s going to be a figurative work. So I will kind of look through and until I find a pose that just like, strikes something with me. Like, Oh, that’s really that makes me feel something like, that’s a really nice pose. And then, usually when I work that way, I’ll be a little bit more intuitive, and I will just kind of have like, like, compose something with the central figure where I want it, and then I’ll kind of let the rest sort of just intuitively come into the painting, yeah, and I do end up making changes sometimes that way, because I’m like, Oh no, I didn’t like that. Let me Yeah. Like, I think the painting, oh, my God, wait, break in the clouds, the one I with, the that I wanted a brush with, I think, with that one, I originally had more Laurel in the background, and it just wasn’t working for me. So I changed all of that and changed color scheme. And yeah, I just, I’ll just let myself make like, I think you can’t be afraid to change your painting, or you never will get you know where you want to go, especially long term with your voice and how you want to paint. So yeah, like stuff like that will happen when I when I plan my own, like, this big thing behind me, basically, this is a friend of mine who models and did a shoot with her and I, so it’s going to be kind of a under, underwater, underwater, and not underwater scene, if that makes any sense. Was like, I got a sky, but it’s got like a like fish and coral and everything going on there. And for that, what I did was I I had my motto, and I bought a bunch of flowers that were, like coral colored, and I kind of arranged those around her, and then I had a tapestry in the back that was like a night sky. So I just had a suggestion of, like, you know, what the color scheme and painting was going to look like. So that’s a little more how worked for my larger. For my larger, more like studio work. And for those I think, I don’t know, I think it’s more of, yeah, an idea just kind of like a suggestion about an idea just coming to me, and then I just kind of develop it. If you’ve

Laura Arango Baier: 24:15

been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May, with our special guest, Debra Keirce, you can find us, sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently. In desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The FASO Podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, and I, again, I love how colorful it is, because I think it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s it’s very easy to be afraid of color, if that makes sense, but it’s really clear that you know, you have this way of using it and applying it in a way that shows through really well. I think, the way that you you compose your colors and the way that they work together in a piece, you’re welcome, and it just transmits so much joy also, which is why I really love looking at your work, because it’s just like, Ah, yes, this, this makes sense. It’s it’s happy, it’s beautiful, it’s well composed, like color wise composition, like figurative composition, it’s really great.

Alyse Russell: 27:24

You’re welcome.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you too, because since you’ve been doing this full time for some time, have you noticed that your process has evolved in a particular way since you’ve been like, working more and more full time.

Alyse Russell: 27:41

Yes, I think I’m still a little bit all over the place right now. It’s just because I did take a period of time off from painting full time, just I had some family health issues going on, and I just didn’t I felt like I needed to, like art takes a lot of focus and energy, and I felt like I needed to just take a step back to prioritize other things. So, you know, but before that, when I really was working very much full time, I I adjusted to having a very regular schedule, and I think that helped a lot, like, I would hate pretty much nine to five, five days a week, just, you know, get up in the morning. I had a home studio, but I actually this is funny, I think. But I I like to feel like I was, like, leaving the house for work. So I actually my studio is the front room of my house, and there was the side door. So I actually put my couch in front of the door into my studio. So I had to go around my house and unlock the front door to get into my studio, and it just made me feel like I was having to get up and go to work, and not just like walking into the other room, but that helped me keep focused. And I think, yeah, like having a full time practice, having a regulated schedule, really helped my work improve, because the tendency to overextend myself painting, like you get really into your painting, and you’re like, oh, I can. I’ll just paint another couple hours. It’s fine, you know. And you like, haven’t eaten dinner, and you’re like, kitchens a mess, and you’re, you know, so, and what would end up happening is, I paint so much, but then then you’re, you’re not really making up any time, because then you get, like, burnt out, putting in long hours, you know? So I just, yeah, really. I made myself keep a consistent schedule as just regular studio practice hours, and that really helped help improve my my paintings and how I worked, because I was giving myself rest. And I think that I improve faster with it’s like you have time to absorb what you’re learning from your paintings, when you have time to just process and not be actively working. So I think that was important, and that did just make things more regular. I think I actually produced more work that way. And was, you know, just able to be more consistent and have better work?

Laura Arango Baier: 30:47

Yeah, yeah, those are that’s an excellent point, because I think there’s many artists out there, including myself and maybe some of our listeners, who have probably painted into the very wee hours of six in the morning from the previous day, and then it takes a few days to, like, properly recover from that, so suddenly it’s like, all these hours you put in, you could have just, like, put them in in a different way, where you weren’t putting your health, like, in a whirlwind of mess. So I totally relate, I think, and I totally agree there’s it’s so important to be consistent and to have that compartmentalization, right? Like, how you were saying having your studio separate, or, like, feeling like it’s a separate space that you’re stepping into. Because I think it’s also happened to me where it’s like, oh, it’s not room over there. I’m just gonna, like, I just walk in, but there’s no real sense of I’m walking into my workplace now. And I think that’s something else that maybe some of us struggle with. So it’s a great point as well. And then I wonder, yes, oh, yeah,

Alyse Russell: 31:56

oh, sorry. I was just gonna say that that’s, you know, having taken time off and going, like, that’s what I’m actually trying to take my own advice right now and get back to that. Because I, I was nervous. I had a little bit of imposter syndrome coming. So I was like, am I a full time I’m not a full time artist anymore. Am I a professional artist? Like, I don’t know, you know. So I, I start. I took a lot when I made the decision, this is only back in December of last year, so I really only been painting full time again, quote, unquote, since January of this year. And I was very nervous about it, because I, yeah, I had that little bit of imposter syndrome. And it was very affirming when the when the BoldBrush, just that movie works. I was like, Oh no, I’m good. I’m good. Like, I’m I’m a professional. I can do this, you know. And, and then I picked up a gallery that I had worked with reached out to me right after that. So I was like, okay, like, oh, it’s like a big relief off of me to like, okay, I can start. I can build this back up again. And so, yeah, now I’m working on, I took a big workload just trying to get myself back in the door. But now I’m working on trying to regulate my schedule back to how it was and have more consistent same hours. Yeah, it could be a lot. And of course, like having the consistent hours always does go out the window a little bit. I think when you have, like, a big deadline or something, because what are you going to do? You know?

Alyse Russell: 33:37

Yeah, I think it’s important that I’m working on getting back to that,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:42

yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, catching you in this very particular window of time is also very interesting, because I think it is also it happens. And it will happen to every artist, really you have this period of time or like, work, work, work, work, work, and then life happens, right? And you have to step away for a little while. For some people might be having kids, for some people might be an accident. So I think it’s what you’re going through now, is literally, like, Ah, of course, you know, like being able to have, like, a reliable way to step back into the studio, like having that consistency again, having, you know the support system for yourself, because it can be really hard as a self employed person, like, no one’s telling you what to do. No one’s telling you what time to show up, right? Like being a good boss with yourself without being a mean boss. Like, no, no, you’re only working this hour to this hour, right? For example, I think catching you in this time is is really great, because it’s an interesting transitional phase, right? Because you went full time and then took a pause and now back to full time. So I think it’s Yeah, I think it’s a testament too, because I’ve also been a bit of a hiatus, and hearing you say, Oh, well, I. Was able to get back into it, and I’m still alive, and it’s going well, it’s like, oh, that kind of, you know, makes me feel like, Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, you’re consistent. And you tell yourself, I can do this and I can go back into the studio, and even if I’m not painting, I’m still an artist, which I think is another thing that many of us struggle with. It’s like, How can I be an artist if I don’t paint? I think it’s good to hear that it is okay to take a break, and it is okay to get back into it, and to feel a little funny about it at first, but to just keep going. You know,

Alyse Russell: 35:33

yeah, for sure, I It’s definitely been I didn’t imagine that it was gonna go jinx myself right? Like, you know, but it went, it went a lot quicker than I imagined. I was like, I don’t see it almost a little overwhelming, because I was like, Oh yeah, it is okay, you know. But I’m, I’m very grateful. Like, I could not be more grateful at how, how smoothly it’s gone so far, and especially because I was nervous, you know? And, yeah, just, I’m grateful for all my recent opportunities and this opportunity, and I’m super happy to be painting again full time, like it’s it’s been, really, I’ve missed that. I, you know, I’m definitely one of those people, like, I need to paint or I’ll be a little bit insane. So it’s been, it’s been very nice, despite a little hectic, but it’s been very nice. And I’m hoping I’ll, yeah, get into a little more easy flow schedule here soon.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:42

Yeah, that’s awesome. Um, and then I wanted to ask you, so the first time you became full time, what? What was the moment where you realize, excuse me, the moment where you realize, oh my gosh, I’m making a living from this. I’m, like, full time. Like, what was that like for you?

Alyse Russell: 37:01

I mean, it’s, it’s a good feeling. I think that when I, like, I probably quit my part time job before I really should have, but, you know, because so there was a little bit of a rough transition the first time around there where was painting full time. But I don’t know if I was super comfortable thinking, though, but that’s okay, but, you know, I got through it. It was very exciting, but it was, it was a lot of it was a lot of stress. I just it’s hard to, unfortunately, have even a part time job and try to be a full time artist, because it’s kind of like there’s only, feels like there’s only time for one or the other, or at least for me, like some people can have, oh, I do this job, and then I do this job, and then I do this, and it’s I, but I’m not that person, you know. So it, I think it went a little I had a period where I kind of said to myself, like, you know what? Because I had been down on myself after just struggling, like, a little bit financially, with only having art as an income. And there was just a moment where I said to myself, like, I, you know, I am art, like plenty of artists make good plenty good money selling art full time. And there’s no reason, because I was kind of thinking like, oh, I should have stayed in school. I should have done this or that, you know, I was like, You know what? Like, I don’t there’s no reason like I was like, I need to just really concentrate, start keeping make sure I have consistent hours. I need to really start paying more attention to marketing. You know, really be smart about the work I’m doing. And not just because a lot of you know, being a painter, you’re just like, you know, you’re like, obsessed, or like, I, you know, I think most people, you’re like, obsessed with your work and and just like, the process of working, and it’s kind of like, I mean, I think for me, it’s something I sort of would have to have to do to some degree. I’m not making any money on it, you know. So I think because I get to a place where I was like, Okay, I have to be smarter about this and and think about the financial aspect more strategically, and really make a commitment to that. And then I think once I did that, it was very free flowing, and it felt really good, you know. And, yeah, things became more consistent. And just over time, like, you kind of think there’s going to be this big break moment, but for me, it’s, it wasn’t like that. It was just like little steps, you know, until I was like, oh, you know what, I’m actually. Uncomfortable, like, I’m good, you know. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:08

awesome, yeah. And I find that, you know, for most people, I think that’s how it is, because I feel like I totally agree with the you think there’s going to be, like, a moment where, like, there’s a windfall of, like, I don’t know, like, a ton of shows or, like, bunch of sales. But I think just focusing on, like, those consistent little steps is so I feel like it is so stabilizing, you know, it’s so like, Okay, this is the solid ground that I can rely on. And if there is, like, a sudden windfall where, like, I sell a bunch of work, that’s awesome. But that’s the hard part about being an artist as well. You know, like, the you’re gonna have, like, times for there’s a lot coming in, and there’s gonna be times when you don’t have too much coming in. So you have to find, you know, all those ways to fill in the gaps, especially now economically, we’re in the craziest time. Yes, but I also wanted to ask you, you know, what is something that you wish you knew when you started out that you now, know,

Alyse Russell: 41:09

um, you know, honestly, I think that would pretty much be it like that, you know, you just have to, there’s not going to be a moment. Or at least for me, there wasn’t where you’re like, Oh, I’ve made it now. Like, it’s very gradual. It kind of happened before I even noticed. I thought to myself, like, one day, like, Oh, I was actually putting, like, a new commission in my calendar. And I was like, Oh, I have six months of commissions right now. Like, books. Like, I don’t like, I, you know what I mean? And I was like, Oh, I like, Oh, I like, do this full time, like, all my money is good, like, I’m, you know, it’s like, so happened so gradually, it’s like I didn’t even notice, like, I didn’t even notice at first that that that’s where I was, you know, I think it would have been helpful at the start of my career to know that, like, it was going to be so gradual, like that. Because it’s not like I was expecting, like, to just blow up overnight or something, but you kind of, I guess I was thinking, like I would get into a really good gallery or something, and then it would be, like, smooth sailing, or like, it would be this kind of moment, but no, just kind of, like, consistency, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:30

nice, yeah, no, it’s, it’s how I think, I think that’s a hard part too, that it is so gradual that for Anyone, like, in early stages of the career, right, where they’re still getting their footing, it almost feels like nothing’s happening, until, you know, you have that moment like you where it’s like, oh, my calendar is full. Like I I’m doing this all day, like I’m I don’t have my job anymore, of course. So this is my job. And I think you know, having that patience as well to, like, settle down and realize, okay, what’s the next project, what’s the next thing, and also putting yourself out there, which actually, this leads me to my next question, which is, how did you find your first collectors, and what have you learned from that process of finding these collectors?

Alyse Russell: 43:21

So my first collector, who’s been one of my biggest supporters, and he he still collects my work. He has, he has a lot of my pieces. Actually, I think he’s pretty much gotten something from every like major show or exhibition or something like that I’ve done. And I met him at one of the first music festivals that I like painted at. I actually have some large original work there, which is a little risky, because it’s now I don’t take the big pieces out to shows anymore. I just bring like chic, like prints, you know. But he, he bought it. Was a four by five foot large painting. And he, he bought that. I think he actually gave me a deposit there. And then, you know, we, you know, exchanged information, and he purchased that after the festival. And that was, yeah, that was a big help. And I think, as far as collectors, I think what’s really important is, you know, it’s buying art is a very like personal, personal thing. And you know, when people purchase your work, it’s, it’s such a good feeling, because they a lot of times feel so emotionally connected to it. And you. For me, sometimes doing a painting is like, it’s like, I just have to get this out of me, this expression. And like, once the painting is done, like I kind of, I’m like, I have, like, a moment, a few moments where, like, a day or two, where I’m like, oh so happy with my piece. And then after that, I’m kind of like, okay, like, I don’t want this anymore. Like, I don’t want to look at this ever again. And so it’s, it’s great to have someone be like, I love this. And it makes me feel, you know, this type of way. It reminds me of this or, you know, and and I want to look at this in my home for the rest of my life, you know, essentially. And like, it’s such a wonderful feeling. And so, yeah, so it’s very, I think, very, very personal having collectors, and especially like repeat collectors, you know, and you know, they’re very invested in you, I think. And so I like to really show that you know that I appreciate that. And I used to be very consistent with, like, my email newsletters again, getting something I’m getting back into again. But I think that’s important for me. I also like to do, I’ll send Christmas cards to all my collectors, and I’ll do like, a little, you know, tiny, like sketch painting that’s like our original sketch, and I’ll sign it and have a little note and send those. And I think things like that, things like that, are important to show you know, how much I appreciate my collectives, and that sometimes I feel like I care more about my work than I do, like whatever you know, like, get this out of here, and that you know that. So it’s just nice to have people feel moved by my work. And, yeah, I think that’s that’s just just maintaining that. So just letting them know that you you appreciate them is important. I think how you maintain and keep keep them coming back to to buy more work, or look at more work, or, you know, any, anything, or just, or, you know, like, I’ve had a I’ve had a few repeats, quite a few repeat, like, commission collectors, too. So I think that’s nice. And I think it’s, yeah, just making it personal, and, you know, letting them know that you appreciate them?

Laura Arango Baier: 47:42

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think the other really cool thing that you mentioned there is, you know, you met one of them at a live music show, right? Like, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned many times, actually, on the podcast, and it always comes up, and that is the importance of physically going out there and talking to people. You know, if someone’s asking about one of your pieces, or if you have, like, a show exhibition, anything your work is there, someone comes up and looks at the painting. Talk to them. You know, like it’s so important to talk to people, because you might, you know, learn something from this person. Maybe they buy something, maybe they don’t. But I think you know, most collectors, and you might attest to this, most collectors, they buy the work, not just because they love it, but because they also got to know the artist and appreciate who the artist is as a person, right? So you know that really highlights the importance of networking, you know, putting yourself out there, talking to people, you know,

Alyse Russell: 48:45

yeah, for sure, yeah, I think that it’s really important. I tried to get to all my show openings, if possible. It’s not always possible. I’m excited to go. I’ve never been to the gallery at the next show I have upcoming. I’ve never been to this gallery, and I’m going, it’s in Denver, and I’m going out, so I’ve never been. I’m excited. I haven’t met any of these people yet because, just because Denver is far from me, but, yeah, very exciting. And, you know, it’s, it’s so much fun to meet everyone and hear, I love to hear people’s perspective on my work, because I like to leave, I mean, I think there are, of course, like meetings in my work, but I like to leave it a little bit open to interpretation, because sometimes I’ll have a collector or or just someone come up and talk to me about my work, and they’ll say something about it that I hadn’t even thought of, but then I’m like, Oh my God, that’s so true. And I was actually going through something like that at the time that I made this painting. And, you know, so it’s so funny that you should mention that, and I never even thought about that, you know. And. So I think that really adds to the work and makes it just more of a, you know, like you think a painting is done, but it’s kind of adds on to that process of the painting and like what the painting is about. And I love hearing what what other people have to say with their interpretations. And I think that people do that’s something that’s big, live painting. A lot of I usually don’t sell the live painting like at the event, because it’s, it’s going to come home with me and get, you know, touched up and signed and varnished and all that. But a lot of the paintings I have sold to someone from the festival, and it being that they came and chatted with me about the painting and what it was about, and how they were interpreting it, and and then, of course, they got to see me. I don’t finish them per se at the festival, but I try to get them, like, locked in in a way that’s everything that’s going to kind of be in the finished painting is in there, and you can tell what’s going on. And, like, maybe the focal point is kind of a little more finished. And so, yeah, people really like to they felt connected to the work that way. It’s really fun. It makes the paintings that are done that way, I think, a little bit special, extra special, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:29

yeah, yeah. And also, because it’s a moment that you shared with some of the people who have observed it, right? It’s like, oh my gosh, yeah. It’s like that one time that I met you at that festival, and this is like the physical memory of like having been there and having had a great time. And I think that’s the other beautiful thing with painting, especially when you’re painting, something that really comes from your soul, right from from within, from that inner voice, is that it speaks to someone else, and also it creates a connection, through memory, through sense, through all of these things that you know, if you hadn’t been there and you’d been painting in your studio, wouldn’t quite be the same. There’s, of course, people still love studio paintings, and they’ll buy them. But there is something extra special about you know, you know collectors, or possible collectors, just people watching a piece that they might be interested in in person like not a lot of people get the privilege of watching an artist paint live, mostly because we’re reclusive and we don’t want to be looked at. But hey, that could just be me.

Alyse Russell: 52:39

Yeah, yeah, no, it’s so it’s so true, and, you know, it’s funny, because I’m very, I don’t, I’m not live painting. I don’t want anybody, but, like, I hate recording my process and stuff, so it’s funny. I don’t want anybody in my studio, you know. So it really is something like, a little little bit special, a little different, dating, live, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:02

Yeah, and actually, I wanted to ask you as well, do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Alyse Russell: 53:19

Yeah. I mean, I think really just consistency is the key. Like, if you consistently put yourself out there and you know are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice, I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s, it’s just, it’s about perseverance, you know, it, I think it’s really just about putting yourself out there, because, like, ultimately, like, like, you know, if you, if you’re gonna have all the skill scale in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re not going to sell any of them. So. And then, you know, on the flip side of that, you’ll see artists who, like, you know, I’m not saying anything about the you know, that to maybe not be my personal favorite, or I don’t think have the most technical skill, you know, but do very well, and you know, it’s because they put themselves out there and they learned how to market themselves, and they took chances, you know, to get where they are. Thank you. Just consistency, putting yourself, putting yourself out there and and that helps you, yeah, find your voice as well, just consistently keeping going,

Laura Arango Baier: 54:49

absolutely, absolutely. And then you get all of the crazy opportunities by putting yourself out there, which is what you said as well. And speaking of opportunities, do you mind telling us about your. Upcoming show?

Alyse Russell: 55:02

Yeah, of course. Upcoming show is that gallery called tereda. I hope I’m not. It’s one of such funny things where I’ve never heard anyone say it, so I hope that’s how you pronounce it. I’ve only ever seen it written down the Rada, and it’s kind of a psychedelic art gallery in Denver, Colorado, and, yeah, it’s, it’s, I haven’t been there in person, so I’m actually really excited to go. I’ve seen a lot of pictures. There’s a lot of artists that I whose work I really love, and, you know who I’ve looked up to, have have worked there, have shown there, and they’re, they’re really wonderful gallery. They’re always very professional and do a great job with everything. I’m very excited to see the show. It’s a group show. It is called Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty. It is a group show, opening may 1, 2026, and then I doesn’t stay here, but I believe it’s just running through the rest of the month, May to June, and the opening reception is May 1. And then can it’s Yeah, once it’s up, you can view all the work from the show. You’ll be able to view all the work from the show on a website to be ww.sereda.com, T, H, R, E, y, D, A, and, yeah, very excited about that. Awesome. And, yeah, I’m excited to see everyone else’s work. Of course, I haven’t seen anybody yet, so, yeah, very exciting. Yeah, see real paintings in real life is like the best thing ever?

Alyse Russell: 57:03

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I’m looking forward. It’ll be a it’ll be a good show. And, yeah, there’s not many upcoming, and that’s the only gallery that I’m currently working with as of right now, and just really have nothing else going on yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:33

Not yet, exactly,

Alyse Russell: 57:34

yeah, but

Laura Arango Baier: 57:35

yeah. But if someone does want to see more of your work and maybe stay up to date, where can they do

Alyse Russell: 57:43

that? My website, www Elise firefly.com and Instagram would be at Elise Firefly arts and, yeah, keep up with me on both of theirs. I’m pretty up to date on Instagram, usually my website. I am starting up my new email newsletter again. So if anyone, it’s usually like monthly to bi monthly. Usually send out, but that will have all the updates on upcoming shows, studio sales, anything like that, and just kind of behind the scenes of my work process, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 58:29

and then I’ll include all your links as well in the show notes, and then your newsletter link, and then the show link so people can go check out your your upcoming show. But yeah, well, thank you so much, Elise for the conversation. I feel very, very seen and validated and inspired. So thank you so much.

Alyse Russell: 58:51

Yes, thank you that was, that was that was great. That was very fun. I feel that, yeah, that felt very validating for me as well. So thank you so much for having me,

Laura Arango Baier: 59:04

of course, and I’m excited to see your future work as well.

Alyse Russell: 59:08

Thank you. Yes, I’m very excited. Got to finish this large piece back here next I think. So that’ll be fun, and I’ll have Yeah, I’m very excited to be back at it.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:23

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On today’s episode we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite park ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings blend rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored abstraction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry, and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms, and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full-time painter and seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect people emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory, and truly knowing one’s subject—whether it’s a cliff face, endangered owl, or peregrine falcon. Over time his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission: using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists to be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long-term perseverance, and on building real human connections—with collectors, galleries, and fellow artists—rather than chasing awards or trends. J Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite (opening May 4), as well as group shows including the California Art Club Gold Medal Exhibition, the Art Renewal Center Salon in New York, and invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year.

James’ FASO site:
jamesmcgrewfineart.com/

James’ Social Media:
facebook.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

instagram.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

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Transcript:

James McGrew: 0:00

I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me like she’s saying, like, you gotta, you gotta just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true and I but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work. And, you know, getting those those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:42

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. On today’s episode, we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite Park Ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings lent rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored obstruction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full time painter and a seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect with people, emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory and truly knowing one subject, whether it’s a cliff face endangered owl or peregrine falcon. Over time, his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission, using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long term perseverance and on building real world, human connections with collectors, galleries and fellow artists, rather than chasing awards or trends. Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite, opening may 4 as well as group shows, including the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibition, the art renewal center salon in New York, and Invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year. Welcome James to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

James McGrew: 2:47

Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m doing well.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:50

Thank you. I’m excited to have you. Yes, I’m excited to have you because your work is beautiful and it is so authentic. How much you love nature, which, of course, we will touch so much more on where that stems from. But I’m very excited to have you to be able to pick your brain about your work and your inspiration and how you are a multi disciplinary person, which is really awesome because you have so many things to pull from. But before we dive into all of that good stuff, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

James McGrew: 3:23

Sure, so I My name is James McGrew. I’ve been a full time professional artist for about 30 years, and for about 25 summer seasons. I was an interpretive park ranger in Yosemite as well, seasonally for about a couple months each summer. And so whether I’m doing my painting or photography or video work or writing or having done, you know, programs, presentations, or teaching a workshop, one hour workshop, or a photography workshop, it’s really kind of all the same thing. I think of myself as an environmental educator. So it’s all just different ways of using different vehicles for communication to connect people with the places that I love.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yes, yeah. And you know that goes back to the you are an absolute nature lover. I think, I don’t think I’ve ever met someone as involved and as enthusiastic, motivated to really dive into the importance of conservation and environmentalism and nature and also be a phenomenal artist. I think that’s one of the coolest things. You’re welcome. So I wanted to ask you, too, because you’ve always had this love of nature, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

James McGrew: 4:44

That’s that’s tough to say, because it was so early that I don’t remember a lot of things really well back then, I’ve come across some photos of me at the dining room table with watercolors painting when I was, like, four years old. If. I do remember getting in trouble in school and math class around third grade frequently for drawing Yosemite drawing, kind of all the time so. And then when I was eight years old, my aunt gave me a set of pastels, soft pastels, and and then another friend of our family, about a year later, another much bigger set of Rembrandt soft pastels, and then my dad gave me oils that he had the from college when I was 10. So it’s been as long as I can remember, really, but that’s just the actual act of painting, drawing. The bigger part of that the deep resource that I draw upon, the inspiration for all the artwork, is just my connection with nature. And that goes back even further. So when I was four months old, my parents first took me backpacking in Yosemite, not with a pack of my back. You know, I was the backpack, but they have photos of me and in Yosemite National Park in the back country, and they said I was just enthralled with my eyes wide open and my mouth open, just looking up at the cliffs. And I don’t quite remember that trip some reason, but I do remember a few years later, about six to eight years old, and one really important trip when I was eight years old for my birthday, and we were backpacking in hecheschi and the northwestern part of Yosemite, and that was a record snowpack year, with massive snow melt in late June, with the waterfalls raging and thundering. And it just had such a vivid impact on me, emotionally, mentally, and I can still remember it. Fact, I remember getting in trouble in school, drawing from that trip just behind the waterfalls, they were so big, you know, later on, so the next year in school. So I think that background the art path is just it’s been there for a really long time.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:54

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Would you say that your I guess, desire to turn it into more of a career. Was that something that started or, you know, like maybe early as well, like when you were maybe in high school, or was that like later down the line?

James McGrew: 7:13

Well, you know, it was always there. As long as I can remember, there were times that I thought about it and things. But of course, there’s always the thing that you hear from so many people, starving artists. You can’t make a living as an artist. And so on my I have to credit my my family, for tremendous amount of support and always encouraging me, and also a lot of teachers along the way. And I remember my sixth grade art teacher, she told my parents at a teacher parent conference like, you know, I normally tell students don’t plan to make a career as an artist, but you really should encourage your son to do so. And so they did, and they told me that, which, you know, I so I think, you know, it’s really, I have to give a lot of credit to other people for helping steer that path. I mean, I’ve always had that energy and that notion, but when I was in high school. I didn’t quite know what it was that I really want to do. I painted all the time, and was always studying work and and then when I went to look into going to college, actually, for my high school senior project, we had to do something that would be a legitimate career. And at that time, I was I loved art, I loved nature, and I loved bonsai, which is a form of art with, you know, potted small trees. And so I thought, well, it could incorporate all these things together. And I thought, well, landscape architecture, perhaps. So I did a thing on that at the time, just a little kind of interlude. And I think part of that had to do with my art teacher and my sophomore or junior year who asked me to use a certain technique with pastels in a painting, and I demonstrated with demos that I was able to do it, and I did it, and then I did it in parts of that painting. But I really wanted to kind of follow my own voice and my own heart and some things that I’ve been playing with pastel since I was eight years old, and I didn’t see the way she was trying to get me to paint as being really the way that I see and experience the world. And there are some areas that, when we look at stuff that you know, there’s high detail and sharp edges and texture, and the other areas that are kind of blurry, and I was trying to paint that way, and some areas I was smudging, and other areas I was leaving sharp. And she just wanted the whole thing to be kind of, you know, sketchy with the pastels, without ever being able to blur any areas I’m like. So I did some spots that way, and then I left other areas softer, and I intentionally smudged other areas and softened edges. And she gave me a D on the painting, and it was the only time I had not gotten an A on a painting. And she says, I did this to teach you a lesson. And she goes, You didn’t listen to the instructions. And but then when we had the end of the year art show, she had it hung front and center in the entryway to the entire school as the showpiece. So I got really kind of confused with that. And but then it really kind. Sunk in that, yes, you do have to listen to your instructors, but it also kind of backfired. It made me even more entrenched in how important it is to follow my own voice, and it just it didn’t feel right to do somebody else tell me do with my artwork, because my artwork is an expression of me and how I feel and how I interpret the world, and so still super valuable experience, and so kind of an important, you know, moment there, but that, I think, is probably part of the reason why I was a little unsure for a little bit. But then when I went to go look at college, and I went to the dean of the art department of the school that I was looking at going to, and they looked at my work and said, We think your work is wonderful, but it’s very representational. And that’s not the direction the art world is moving. They said, any university you go to, it’s going to be about abstract expressionism, being expressive with acrylics and just throwing color on canvas. And if you want to learn to paint with oils, and you want to learn to and you want to learn to draw properly and paint with an old master style, a classical style, that’s just it. You can come here, but you’re not going to probably be happy. And so I was really kind of put off by that, and just decided it was time to study the other thing that I loved, which was nature and figure out how to get to Yosemite, somehow, my favorite place in the world. And so I went to get a degree in biology. And then as I was taking courses in biology, and we had to take additional science courses and other disciplines like geology and chemistry and physics and things like that. And I realized along the way how interrelated all sciences are, and just how inspiring it was and how exciting it was to just learn more about what I wanted to paint. And so I added minors in chemistry and geology, and still taking every art class that I could, you know, from art history to darkroom photography to biological illustration when I was in grad school, and so just lots of stuff along the way. But my real inspiration for art was going to museums and looking at the works that really moved me. Like, I can’t remember, I can’t remember what year it was, but the first time I ever walked into a room full of Rembrandts and I just, you know, art skipped a few beats. They were alive. They were breathing. They were just so real. And then they the American Masters who painted the places that I love, like Thomas Hill, Thomas Moran, Albert Bierstadt, and other artists in similar styles in the 19th century. And of course, the ones that we all look at today, like Sargent and Zorn and Zorya and those guys, but, you know, I was looking a lot at the artists who painted the landscapes that I loved, especially, and so that was all kind of inner mixed together, but not really knowing what I wanted to do with it, other than somehow figure out a way to keep painting, figure out a way to get to Yosemite and be in the place that I loved. And at the end of my four years in undergrad, I was on a geology field trip, and we were in Yosemite at the entire course is actually on the geology of Yosemite National Park. And for the end of the course, we went to Yosemite for a week long field trip. And while I was there, I learned about this internship program with the National Park Service and the Yosemite Conservancy. And I just like, This is it. I have to be this. I got to apply to this. So throughout my time in school, I tailored every project in every class to something to do with Yosemite. So in a Native American narratives course, I tailored it to the awanichi in Yosemite. In organic chemistry, I wrote my year long term paper on the reactions of ozone, air pollution, with terpenes and chlorophyll in in pine trees in the park. In entomology, I studied bark beetle so like of course, I studied geology and of our national parks and all my geology courses. So everything was just really tailored. And I had all these papers written and things, and so I submitted this volume of stuff and photos of my photography and my paintings, and I applied for a wilderness position to just be on patrol on the trails and making sure people were safe and camping properly with permits. And they asked me, because of my background, if I could work in interpretation and be able to do programs for the public. And when they said, working in Tuolumne Meadows with campfires with 300 people, like my heart really skipped debate. Like, I don’t want to do public speaking, you know, but I mind. I don’t mind communicating with people through my work. I love doing that, but actually performing in front of a crowd, that’s really scary. And so they said, Well, you can give it a shot, and if it doesn’t work, you can move to wilderness. But we’d really like you to give it a try, you know. And they let me do it in a less intense environment, in Yosemite Valley. And. First, I was not very good, and I heard these incredibly brilliant speakers, longtime park rangers had been there for decades, who were just some of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met. And they could take any tangible object that we see in nature and then just layer all these levels of intangible concepts that just pull at the heartstrings and make people really think and make connections. And that was scary at first, because, like, oh my god, I can share some knowledge, but like, I don’t know how to do this, you know. And over time, I did, and I kept working at it, and I eventually I realized I had the potential to connect people with nature and inspire people that would have lasting impacts outside of their visit to a national park. And so then I went to grad school for a Master’s of Science in environmental education, and all along the way, kept painting. And today, after 25 summers as an interpretive ranger, and the rest of the year and On days off and before and after work, I was always painting. And so it’s, it’s really been predominantly an artist, but it’s, it’s all, like I said at the beginning, a vehicle for communication as an environmental educator. And so as to how that path kind of became realization that it would be making a living as an artist, I don’t really know. There’s any one time, I guess, when I was young, and I was more kind of confident in everything and my knowledge of stuff, I just walked into galleries like, Hey, do you want to sell my work? And I was very fortunate that I landed some shows in college at some major galleries, and things were successful from right, from the beginning. And so I never really questioned that, and never thought about it. And I’ve just been very, very fortunate that the right doors open up at the right times, and I met some really wonderful people that, you know, saw what I was trying to do with my work, and I’m really grateful for those opportunities. So it’s just been like part of who I’ve been my entire adult life. Really, I’ve not known any other path other than that. So there wasn’t any one pivotal moment to make a living as an artist, just sort of all happened. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:09

It feels very organic, like your love for nature, very organic. But yeah, you’ve mentioned a lot of stuff there that’s very fascinating, you know, like the having the proper support from teachers, and sometimes even, like the, I guess, like that stubborn sort of, well, I have my vision, and this teacher is trying to like, because I think many artists have definitely gone through that situation. I feel like it’s almost rite of passage where butt heads with an instructor at some point, because they just don’t seem to, I don’t know, see what you see, and it is hard to come to terms with that. And I think that also dissuades a lot of people from pursuing art as a career, and the challenges of wanting to be representational, also in a time, especially, you know, 2030, years ago, in a time where it was considered a dead thing. Like, why would you do that? Especially, gosh, I feel like from the 50s up until like 2000s is when contemporary schools were all modernist and almost anti representational, which is kind of sad, because it’s still, you know, no hate on contemporary art, but there’s room for everyone you know, like even contemporary art stems from observation of nature and comes from realism, comes from representational work. So it’s good that you push past that and you still kept going stubbornly.

James McGrew: 18:40

But I actually, I already is I thought I knew the most about art when I was younger, and the more I keep studying, the more I realize how much more there is to know. And it’s like you reach a certain level with your work, with a certain level of accomplishment and a certain level of understanding. And you kind of break through these barriers, and you keep going up and up, and all of a sudden you begin to see things in masterworks in museums that you couldn’t see before that. And as far as I know, those never end, you know, they just keep getting more and more and more. So you begin to realize just how much there is to really learn, and just how brilliant a lot of the masters were, both contemporary and, you know, for the last hundreds of years of throughout art history.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:24

Yeah, and like you said, it’s the gift that keeps on giving. Like, the more you know, the less you know. And it’s similar with science. You know, the more you learn, the more questions you have. And it just keeps going on and on and on. And actually, speaking of science, I wanted to ask you, do you find that your increase in like knowledge about biology, chemistry and all these different scientific components has that influenced your understanding of painting and how to create like an image that seems more realistic just based on that

James McGrew: 19:55

Absolutely, in fact, I would say that’s kind of the foundation, the most important thing. And. And you know, we think about this, look at davinci’s work, you look at Rembrandt’s work, you go back to these master figure painters and the studies they did with human anatomy, with dissections and things, and they really early on, that’s when you start to really see figure work that starts to look real. And every great figure painter today, of course, studies anatomy to some degree, and it’s really important to know the bone structure and the musculature and everything and how things work. And the reality is the same with your painting nature. So I mean human animals versus, you know, other wild animals, birds and things, you still have to know the anatomy. It’s also important to know the behavior. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been really fortunate to encounter incredible species that are very rare, endangered species in the wild, pretty frequently, and sometimes that’s just a product of being out painting plein air, very still, very quiet by yourself for two hours with all of your senses heightened, and animals just they lose their sense of fear, and they go about their business, and they’ll reveal themselves to you and like, go walking or flying right by in front of me while I’m working, but also just knowing what I’m intentionally looking for stuff and knowing when and where to find them, and then be able to tell the stories about those animals, how they fit in an ecological niche, or the background behind that thing and the story that’s being told through my work. And sometimes I’m adding a visual story in the painting. Other times it’s the captivating thing, and I’m adding an interpretive writing that goes with that pain, that elaborates and gives you some more information on the natural history or ecological status, on endangered species status or things like that. So that’s all super important. And and then, of course, the anatomy of nature is, you know, geology, and also physics. And the more we understand geology and why rocks break the way they do, why they layer and color the way that they do, that’s really important, and what to look for in the landscape. I mean, you know, you look at the Impressionists and just looking at a thing and finding a color and value and the relationships of those strokes next to everything around it is valuable, and you can just create a painting that way. But it helps a lot if you also are kind of looking for certain things. And you know why a rock should be more angular in certain situations, or softer and more rounded than others. Why that there would be certain colors on the cliffs? Why, with physics of atmosphere and light through Rayleigh scatter, why things compress and value and become more blue as they recede, and why you have different light source versus, you know, warm and cool and light source versus reflected light and a shadow, and there are no fit rules. And like I was at on faculty plein air convention last year, and and one of the other faculty members came up and used my painting as a demo for somebody he was trying to talk to. And and the guy said, okay, so somebody else told me that the shadows should be warmer than the light source, and it’s always that way. And like, well, there’s a lot of situations where that’s the case, but it’s not always true. And at this time of day, it was sunset. So I said, you know this, the atmosphere has filtered out all the short wavelengths of the spectrum. We only have the long wavelengths coming through, so the light source is very warm, but the shadows right now reflecting blue light from the sky, so it’s completely reversed of what you think. And if you’re not making observations in nature and also understanding what’s happening with that physics, you know it might be a lot more complicated to try and figure things out. And then the other side of all of that doesn’t matter what genre of work you’re doing or what your subject matter is, is knowing human visual processing system, how we perceive things, how we process how it triggers certain emotions, how we can play off of our processing system, like the way the Impressionists did, using like, for example, equal value, complementary colors and juxtapose near each other. And you know, the rods and the cones and our retinas are wired to different parts of the brain, and so rods are looking at grayscale, and cones are looking at color and detail. And so if you put those equal value complements next to each other, the brain has a hard time figuring out what’s going on, and that’s what causes the vibrance and atmosphere you see in Impressionism. And I mean, even fasori wrote about it, with the Mona Lisa, with the the green earth that was used, and the verdaccio and the under painting, and then the Vermillion mixed with lead white into the the over painting, and you get that resonance and vibrance of two complementary colors there and and create like, as he said, it looked like the veins in her neck were pulsing. We can’t see that now, because the varnish has changed and the paints changed. But you know, we can rely on what was written about it and see that in more contemporary works that do the same thing. So whether they knew the science behind what was happening or not, certain artists figured these things out along the way. And we can study the art, or we can. Study the science or both. And I think it’s all really valuable and instrumental into helping know what to look for, and that speeds the process and helps us when we’re inevitably always getting stuck, you know, in a painting, trying to figure things out why something’s not working.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:18

Yeah, yeah. And that’s it’s so fascinating, because now it’s, I’m even more intimidated by landscape just the idea of, like, Huh? I wonder if this is limestone over there, and what kind of reflective nature limestone has, and maybe granite doesn’t have, and all of these things that could definitely, I would say it could improve the understanding of a painting, which is great. And I think it’s also up to the person, if they want to go that far to like, really understand what they’re looking at, which is exactly what Leonardo did right with his illegal anatomy shenanigans, which really helped him understand the insertion points of muscles and why, you know, certain things are shaped the way they are, or even, like the very famous Michelangelo sculpture where the pinky is slightly lifted, so this one muscle is exposed that isn’t normally exposed unless your pinky is lifted. So, yeah, I think there is a beautiful combination of, like, knowledge and observation that I think a lot of successful paintings and sculptures and other art forms tend to have. So I think, if anything, it might, it might spark intimidation, but curiosity as well as like, Oh, okay. Like, how would that work? Or, like, how does why does this look funny? Maybe there is a scientific observational reason why it’s not working in my painting. So that’s really interesting. And actually, speaking of I

James McGrew: 26:46

do that when I teach a workshop, I always mix that the stuff that you standard teach in a workshop, design, composition, draftsmanship, values, color theory and, of course, edges, you know. But I also teach all the natural history sides of things, and the visual processing system and the art history and all that stuff and how it interweaves together to help people be able to see better and work more efficiently and effectively and and know what to look for and when and how and anticipate. So much about plein air painting is not capturing something in the moment, it’s knowing what’s going to happen. Like, you know, sunset lasts for five minutes, and you can’t paint a good sized painting in that amount of time, usually. But you know, you have to kind of know where things are likely to go.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:35

Yeah, yeah. And that’s the part about science that’s so useful. It’s the repetition, right? The the replication of experiments. It’s the knowing what’s going to happen. Like you said, just based on, oh, well, these are the conditions that are happening. I’m just going to lay out, for example, like lay out all of the structure of my painting. And that way, once I know that sunset hits where I want it, where I know it’s going to be, I know exactly where I’m going to start popping those colors on, where I need to, to make a convincing, you know, image. And I think that’s, that’s, I like to say that plein air is like running a crazy marathon, which actually leads me to my next question, because I know you do plein air, of course, and you do studio work. What is your process like? You know, from searching for your subject matter up to finished piece.

James McGrew: 28:27

That’s a great question. It’s a big question. The most important thing, like we’ve been talking about, is just observing nature and spending time in nature and letting that sort of reveal itself. You know, what really moves me? What inspires me. Sometimes I’m actually looking for something on purpose, like looking for peregrine falcons or looking for spotted owls or great gray owls or bears or something that I’m intending to paint for a reason. And we’ll put myself into that habitat on purpose, set up a landscape painting and be working, and invariably, I’ll have a long lens on a camera set to high speed and have another panel set and ready to go quickly. And then if that animal shows up, I’ll usually do a quick study of them, even if it’s only a matter of strokes, or I might incorporate them into the painting that I’m already working on. And then, of course, grab some quick reference photos. And most important, just really absorb that moment and suck it as much as I can in through my senses, and pay attention to everything I’m observing and feeling at the time. And I think a lot of it is intentional, but a lot of it is also beyond our kind of intended control, like just so many of the things that we’re feeling when we’re out in nature, ultimately do come in through all of our senses, whether it be visual or auditory or olfactory or touch and and then just even the way we’re feeling at the moment and aware of what’s going on and like, there’s times I’ve been on a vertical wall on a cliff in Yosemite rock climbing to get an image or something, you know, and one of the paintings is in my next upcoming show. Actually. Is peregrine falcons hunting bats at sunset, and I was really reliant on a park biologist and a couple of outstanding world class rock climbers to get me into that place, to be able to get there, to experience that, do a study on site and get the photo references. But also it was so intense my senses were heightened, and like, I could paint it without their references, because it’s just so indelibly ingrained, because because of the experience, because the emotion of where I was, you know, 300 feet off the ground at the time, so that that all kind of comes into play. And whether we’re consciously thinking about it or not, it’s channeled through the brush when you’re there on site. And so when I’m out in nature painting, it’s sometimes kind of planned. Other times it’s just whatever happens and what inspires me, and I don’t know what I’m going to look for for the day. I mean, I rely on my background to know when the light’s going where, like in Yosemite Valley, for example, I know certain times of the year when the light hits certain waterfalls, when to anticipate certain things, when it hits certain sequoia groves, when it hits certain cliffs. And the same is true in other landscapes that I paint a lot, like Zion and Grand Canyon and and things like that. But then there’s stuff that you just you can’t predict, and when certain wildlife is going to arrive, when weather changes unexpectedly, when something hits, that just really makes you excited and inspired. Like, oh, I have to paint that right now. I was not what I was thinking, but get my gear out go, you know, and gotta record it. And I almost never paint a studio piece without a plein air reference, at least one, and I have to have experienced it on in person. So I often hesitate to take on commissions if somebody doesn’t have, you know, something that they’ve already seen me paint, and I already have planner references and photographs of my own, my own memories, and so that’s a really important part of the process. But then, of the images that I’ve gathered in the studio to plan our studies and and things, there are certain ones over time I’ll kind of sometimes know right away, oh, that’s gonna be my big show piece for my next show. Other times, I just look at stuff and kind of figure out, all right, which ones am I going to orchestrate into certain pieces and figure out which ones I need to tell the story to round out the body of work and to put together for a thematic body for a show like every one of my big solo shows have a thematic body behind them, an artist statement that’s describing how all those paintings fit into an umbrella. And so I usually am planning those out at least a year ahead of time. And so those, those are kind of going into what I’m designing for the studio pieces. And then, like I have right here behind me, I have a big piece of Yosemite that’s going to be one of the pieces in my show. I’m making some last adjustments to it now and then the plein air reference here that I painted on site one morning, got up at dawn, went out to this viewpoints, a steep scramble up on some granite cliffs, to that spot, and set up. And I painted, I don’t know how many times from that area, all different times a day, all different times of the year. And this one that I really didn’t want to put up for sale. So many of my plein air paintings I never put out for sale because they’re just too valuable as a reference for a studio piece. And this one I’d been wanting to do, and I just knew it would fit with the theme of the show. And so use that to orchestrate in conjunction with my memory and my photos and come up with the big studio pieces,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:29

amazing, wow,

James McGrew: 33:30

and try and channel the same emotions that I had while I was in the field. And sometimes I have to just really kind of visualize and think and try and go back in my mind to try and get back into that place. Sometimes I rely on certain music to get me there and fit the same kind of a mood.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:49

Yes, yeah. I think that’s one of those underrated parts of being a painter, which is memory. I think a lot of a lot of the most important part of the process is part memory and part, of course, like immediate reaction to what you’re seeing and immediate capturing, right? But I think you know, having the memory is so so so valuable. I mean, that means you can, you know that means you can close your eyes and you have learned something so well that you can visually recreate it without necessarily having to see it because you’ve observed it so much. And I think that’s one of those skills that I think is, you know, necessary to develop that observation memory. Like, if I could close my eyes and repaint the painting that I’m making on a separate scrap of paper, I probably could type of skill set. I did. I have a funny little question, which is, do you think you could paint a scene from one of your favorite areas without any references, just from memory? I.

James McGrew: 35:00

Definitely I have, and I do, yes, when I was a kid, I loved fishing. I love trout, and from when I was eight years old, I started using pastels to draw very species of trout. By the time I was a teenager, I could paint any species of trout that lived in the Sierra, just from memory, the different color patterns. And, you know, Rainbow, golden, cutthroats, browns, brook trout, which are actually char, but they all have very different color patterns and thin Ray patterns and shapes and everything. And those were the things that I was, you know, for a little while there, that I love to paint a lot and but the other landscape too, you know certain key things in Yosemite. Yosemite is in the Grand Canyon in Zion, Yellowstone. So many of our big, iconic Western national parks are almost more like painting portraits than landscapes in some respects, because, like, if you know you’re reading Edgar Payne’s book or John Carlson’s guide, landscape painting, like just so many of these books about you know how to modify the landscape and and be able to orchestrate a landscape that kind of works, that only works when you can really fudge things a lot with Yosemite, the features are so iconic and so well Known, like the abanici and Yosemite refer to Half Dome as tissiak. And there’s an Indian legend behind that, and everything. And like, there are, like, there’s, there are profiles of a human face, couple of them in the Face of Half Dome, and with the lichen streaks and oxidation patterns on the streak on the face. And if you don’t get that right, you look at the geology right, like people recognize it right away. And it’s like messing up the features of somebody’s face, or, if you’re doing a figure study, and getting their one arm kind of wonky or something, you know, or the hands, is always, of course, you know, really hard to paint, too. So that’s just something that is really important when painting really well known landscapes, and you you have to kind of rely on that knowledge of it being more like a portrait painting than just a straight landscape. But that’s not to say you can’t fudge things, because we do perceive things differently. And my biggest struggle with our big national parks, and so many artists have said the same to me, is, how do you capture the sense of scale? You know, if we’re looking almost 5000 feet up at the Face of Half Dome, or two and a half 1000 feet at Yosemite Falls, we’re looking 12 miles across the Grand Canyon. And how do you gather and convey the sense of scale with the emotional impact, without just resorting to pure abstract you know, works or or like Bierstadt did and completely move mountains around, or Moran did the same thing and do lots of degree Thomas Hill and by the way, all those guys also study with scientists. And at the time frame the science expeditions, the Hayden expedition, things like that. Scientists were working side by side with photographers and painters, and they were all sharing the knowledge interchangeably between each other, so there really wasn’t the kind of difference that we see today of different fields, but I think that’s all really kind of instrumental in coming up with the landscape piece of one of our national parks, which for me, the reason I paint them partially is because they’re so beautiful and just so inspirational. And when I was a kid, and when I was younger, like that was just my inspiration, I just was excited and moved inside to do it. But then something changed when my first daughter was born. She’s now 29 and in fact, her and her husband are due in July, some of your grandfather, but so that’s even adds more to it. But I remember there was this day I was near Glacier Point in Yosemite, and when I was in my late teens or so, you feel kind of invincible, especially if like you’re an athlete or something, and you’re you’re out in these places, and you’re not really thinking about the potential danger times. And there was one day where there was just this light bulb that I remember really clearly, and I was at this ledge of a cliff, and I was trying to get a better perspective for a photograph, and I stopped, and I was the first time I ever really remember feeling that and thinking, Oh, I have another reason to be careful now. And it was my daughter, you know, had been born, and that also changed the trajectory of the purpose of my work. And it wasn’t any longer just because it was something that inspired me and I just wanted to share it with other people for kind of selfish reasons, because I liked it, it was really more because I was trying to help inspire people to conserve nature for future generations, and the need to help protect the environment and all of our national our big Western national parks that kind of laid the foundation for the national park system that is not just now nationwide, but spread around the world. Started with Yosemite. In 1855 with the first tourist party, where Thomas Ayers did a series of drawings of Yosemite Valley that then were reproduced, and then that were photographers. And then one of the most famous artists in the country that time, Albert Bierstadt, came and painted. And then he was in his studio, he had a couple pieces of Yosemite, and that was when senators and congressmen and he, it’s also said that may have been Abraham Lincoln, may have been influenced. So the signing the Yosemite grant in 1864 was highly linked to that. And then our early parts like that became national parks like Yosemite in 1890 surrounding the Yosemite grand and then Yellowstone in 1872 and same with the Grand Canyon And mukuntu weep, which is actually Zion today, and so many other parks owe their existence to the works of artists spreading awareness to The public and to Congress and presidents that ultimately inspired legislative support that set aside those places. And today we can look at them as the places that most really get people inspired. I was reading The FASO Way, one of the things that Clint sends out, he sends out these wonderful writings that really are make you think. And today’s writing was from another writer, Laura, I have to look up the name again, but it was a really intriguing thought process of creativity and how humans have creativity that cannot be replicated with AI. And even more interesting than that was that humans ultimately unlearn creativity. The propensity and opportunity of creativity is much greater in young humans than it is as people age and we think we know things in the environment, we lose a sense of wonder and curiosity and just thinking about what if and why and how that we think of more when we’re younger. And I think national parks, because they’re so otherworldly, so beautiful, they’re places where we can experience wildlife that is dangerous, often deadly, that it gets our heart beating fast, makes us really take note and be like, Wow. And these giant cliffs and geysers and waterfalls and 3000 year old giant sequoia trees that think about the human history that’s occurred in one lifetime of one tree, and all these things that are just so inspiring to people, even the most jaded people who think they know what a tree is, or they know what the landscape is, they know what beauty is, and they Go to National Park, and they still just can’t help but hold back, you know, tears sometimes, or just keep their mouth closed as they know,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:50

yeah, yeah. That’s the beauty of, you know, going to the source, right? Going to nature. And also just hearing about how your, you know, your view of your subject matter has evolved over time, you know, from enthusiast down to really just wanting to Cheryl that there’s so many beautiful things that need to be protected and taken care of. And I’ve also, when I took my environmental science class in high school, they kept repeating the phrase like, We are the stewards of the earth. Because, you know, we’re, we have like the we’re like the top of the food chain at this point, and it is our duty and responsibility to maintain harmony within that food chain, because we have the wherewithal to do it. I mean, animals are just going to continue doing what they’re going to do, and humans are. We’ve been interrupting that for so long that it’s good to be conscious of our own consequences, of our own actions, and to protect and maintain the beautiful earth that is honestly like a miracle in so many senses. So I think it’s very inspiring to hear you know how your relationship to this, this very long term relationship with your subject matter, has evolved in a beautiful way. You know, thinking about future generations like that.

James McGrew: 44:10

There’s an old proverb, and it’s, I’ve seen it attributed to various different cultures, but it’s, it’s basically the same thing, and that is, take care of the earth. It wasn’t given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. And that’s really true.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:27

That hits hard, because it’s true. I mean, I constantly were like, Oh my gosh, what? What’s coming next, but I feel like that’s anyone who studies the environment. I think losing constant dread and anxiety about it one of the reasons I loved my environmental science class, but it was also like, you know what? I think I like not knowing sometimes, because

James McGrew: 44:50

it’s so true, I have that thought quite often, like, once you know, like when you’re just blindly seeing pretty things in nature, like, great. But then once you want. Understand the ecological complexity and the influence of, let’s say, endangered species. For example, you know, you think, Oh, that’s a pretty tree, or that’s a pretty animal or fish or whatever, and then you realize it’s completely destroying the ecosystem, because people brought it there. And you know, it’s like, once you know these things, you can’t unsee them, and then know them. And it does totally change your perspective of looking at the world. And there is definitely both a positive and a downside to that, actually, but it keeps me constantly driven to work harder and harder at not just painting better and better like that’s an endless, you know, trajectory, endless work, but also endless learning about my subject and being able to tell that story in the background, and especially today, this is one of the most pivotal moments. The rate that we’re losing species, species diversity, and everything is happening so incredibly fast, and most people are completely unaware, because we just don’t see it in the news. There’s so much other stuff that’s monopolizing news time that unless you’re really actively looking for it, you’re probably not aware of how much things are really happening and just how fast. So I try to keep up on that stuff and also incorporate that into my work. And like I said, I’m emotionally driven with it, in addition to the just the background,

Laura Arango Baier: 46:18

yeah, yeah, it’s the the so called 11th Hour. Oh, I remember that. That’s also very but you know, sometimes there is good news, environmental good news, which, you know, we always celebrate that, but in your time, oh yes, there’s actually a good amount of good news. It’s just, you know, it’s good to not be totally riddled with bad news. So I tend to follow you know, both the very serious news and then also the fortunately, much happier news about breakthroughs in science that are helping the environment, like the breakthroughs about, oh, we’ve come up with a way to undo microplastics, which I’m excited about, because I think that’s one of the biggest risks for the future of humanity, and it’s always been a risk for the environment and for animals. And yeah, anyway,

James McGrew: 47:11

I do incorporate, you know, my upcoming next show, for example, I do have a few paintings that I have actually coming out, so like the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibit, I have a painting of a of a juvenile, recently fledged California spotted owl. It’s just this downy little fuzz ball with these giant dark eyes. And you can’t help but like, have it melt your heart and just want to reach out and hug them. They’re just so adorably beautiful and cute, sweet and just heartwarming. And having spent a lot of time around them is just unbelievable. And they are in serious trouble. I paint a lot of California condors. I mean, they were down to like, 22 individuals left on the planet, and it’s been an incredibly intensive effort to just keep them live. And they’re still critically endangered. But you know that is, that is a really big issue that we are dealing with. But on the flip side of that, I try to remember that there’s a lot of stuff that’s really hopeful another species, the peregrine falcon, which has inspired me since I was a teen, and at that time, they were really critically endangered. Couldn’t see them in the wild. I mean, I remember reading Galen Raul’s write ups in National Geographic and his photography, as a photographer. He was a nature photographer and rock climber, and the story about how they were critically endangered because of DDT thinning their eggshells, and they were all dying, and they were crashing catastrophically globally. And this is the top predator of the skies, the fastest creature on earth. They fly at 240 miles an hour, and you know, they they’re not afraid of anything, and they’re just the most phenomenally incredible creatures to watch when they’re so not just fast, but agile, and they’re also incredibly intelligent. They’re related to parrots, not other raptors, and they have an incredibly high level of intelligence and creativity, problem solving, they use tools. They make toys. They work together as teams, male and female, mate for life, and they do all kinds of things together. And so the more time we spend in nature, the more we really see stuff that we may not otherwise notice. And it’s been spending hundreds of hours out where peregrine falcons live on the cliffs of my favorite national parks, and getting to observe them so much that I’ve observed those behaviors and watched juveniles learning to teach themselves to make toys and hunt and just things that you don’t really see written about otherwise. And that’s all come from just a lot of time in nature and observing nature. And in the 1970s there were no peregrine falcons in Yosemite they’d gone completely extinct locally and through intensive efforts of the Peregrine fund, funding things, the National Park Service and biologists, rock climbers and all these people working together, age. Educators, scientists, and of course, the Endangered Species Act was created in early 1970s DDT was banned and other organochloride pesticides. And so through all this cooperative work and understanding and research and funding, peregrine falcons were brought back from the brink and delisted in the late 1990s and now there are, like, 15 nesting pairs on average every year in Yosemite. And I’ve watched the same pairs returning to the same nest sites year after year, and watched them changing their hunting behaviors and their teaching behaviors with their children according to their Young’s different personalities and how many young they have. And it’s just, you know, this wonderful ray of hope to see what we can do when we put our minds to it, the works of artists and scientists and educators and and everybody. It’s never hopeless. You know, we see some stuff that, at times, can definitely make us feel kind of down, but it’s important to remember the potential that we have that’s so wonderful and that it can keep us going and keep us pursuing, helping to protect these things and inspire.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:11

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 23rd of April, with our special guest, Shana Levenson. You can find the sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BOLDBRUSH provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBUSH show.com. The FASO Podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year. Then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, yeah, and especially now that we are in the prime time of information, right? Like we are in the information age through and through, where we have direct access to everything online, just information wise. So it’s good to, not only, like before, just rely on, like, the really sad news on on the TV, it’s like, no you can also seek out, like, one, positive news two ways that you can also help support, you know, anything that has to do with wanting to support a cause, like with the Falcons or with any other species, because, yeah, people can do a lot of magic when they come together. And that’s what really matters. Yeah, absolutely insane. And I think the other beautiful thing is, of course, that you’ve been mixing, you know, these two aspects of, like, your love, which is like art and national parks. Was there a moment where you realize, like, Oh, I’m, you know, working as a park ranger, but I’m also making, like, a really good side income from painting. What was that like for you?

James McGrew: 54:36

It was actually the reverse my income as an artist, and was making the summer side income as a ranger, but I not at the very beginning, though, like the very first few years. Of course it was, it was always a struggle, and I did work much longer seasons with the Park Service. My first couple seasons, actually, I was still in grad school, so. So after my summer internship in Yosemite, I went to grad school, and then I had a couple of winters where I worked at Crater Lake National Park in Southern Oregon. I was at Southern Oregon University, and so on weekdays, I was at school, and then on weekends, I drive to the park and do snowshoe walks interpretive programs up at the park. And then once I graduated, went back down to Yosemite. And so it was initially, yes, there were longer seasons and and more reliant on that, but it wasn’t very long before I was, I was really doing a lot more of the painting and relying on that as a bigger source of income. But they still, they both still go hand in hand. And there are some ways we can reach people through visual arts beyond the scope of the immediate vicinity, the landscape. And there are ways that we can connect people in nature, right there in the moment. I mean, there’s no substitute for watching a bird dropping out of the sky at 200 miles an hour. Or watch a bear, you know, hunt something right in front of you. Or watch a mountain lion jump 15 feet in a single leap up a cliffside in complete silence and just disappear. Or have a great, great owl fly out of a tree and go right by you like a ghost without the slightest sound whatsoever. And they’re gigantic owls. You know, there’s just, there is no substitute for these kinds of experiences. And being able to share those with people on site and inspire them and teach them is really great, too. So I’ve always really liked the balance, regardless of what the income level is and it’s, it’s really the payment for me has always been seeing people smiling, seeing their eyes open wide and and seeing them connecting through every way that I can, I can manage to try and share what I can with people,

Laura Arango Baier: 56:51

yeah, yeah. And I’ve heard so many artists say the same, where they feel like Lucky, almost like, wow, I make money off of this thing that I really love, and I’m just doing it because it fulfills me and it makes me wake up happy every morning. And sure, we struggle with some paintings here and there, because no painting is ever in the park. They’re always a struggle in the park, but not always. But to a greater extent, though, it gives you a really good reason to get up in the morning and enjoy just being alive and the celebration of how every moment is a new moment. You know, the eternal Now, as they say, I think is, is one of those things that you know, unfortunately, we do need money to live unfortunately, but it is wonderful to have that as, like, almost like, the secondary reason, or even tertiary reason for painting and for, you know, being out in nature, which is extremely amazing. If I wanted

James McGrew: 58:01

to get rich, I wouldn’t try to be an artist or a park ranger or a teacher or an educator. You know, that’s never been the purpose for any of it, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:09

Yeah. It just feels like the lucky bonus that you get for doing what you love every day, which is extremely inspiring as well. Though. I think, you know, it’s, I feel like a lot of artists we have like this calling for it, right? It’s not like you said, like, if I wanted to be rich, this isn’t what I would do, but I do it because it is compulsory. It is what my my insides are screaming for. It’s I have no other thing that could ever fulfill me this deeply. And of course, money could never have that so but we still need it.

James McGrew: 58:44

It’s true. And even as an artist, though, it’s very easy to get derailed and sidetracked, and you do have to make a living. And I’ve, I’ve put two daughters through college, and they’re both adults now. And you know, it’s has not been an easy road, that’s for sure, and there’s a lot of pressure to, you know, make a living, not just for yourself, but supporting a family, and especially like in that case, when you’re raising kids, all completely dependent upon your income. And so it’s easy to get lost in terms of the focus. And you can be focused more on the income and the business side of stuff, and winning awards, or getting into a gallery, or getting recognition from your peers or from judges and or magazine articles. And you know, I’ve been very fortunate to achieve all of those things, but the times that I was really seeking them, I think the most because it just felt like I had to because I needed to support the family, and I was more focused on it for financial purposes than, you know, inside, some of the most important realizations in my career came when I kind of just forgot all about that and just said, That’s not what’s really important. And I remember in one of the Maui planner painting invitationals in 2020 and I’ve done most of the major invitationals on the western US for many years, and had a great time painting with wonderful artists and friends, and inspired to learn from them, and met so many wonderful collectors and so many wonderful people at the shows and the judges and and things. And I remember John Stern, who was the judge for Laguna Invitational for many, many years, and the Maui Invitational for many years, well respected writer, art critic and curator and everything and and it seemed to me, I was for a while, I was always trying to figure out what a judge had in mind when they were trying to figure out who to give an award to, or what painting to give an award to. And I’ve at times asked judges, okay, so what made you give my painting an award, or this one or over that one? And you know, sometimes our judges just say, I pick what I like, and that’s all they’re willing to say. Other times they’re they’re going to define it based on, you know, the objective criteria of design, composition, edge work, other than more intangible stuff, like the emotional connection that they had and and so I was always trying to figure these things out. And and I would see like, for example, what John was looking at for Best of Show paintings. And I realized so many of his awards had architectural things, just contemporary buildings and things in them. And like, well, that’s not really what I want to paint. I do paint really landmark architecture, really interesting Native American things and early national parks history and some of the grand lodges and things like that. But for the most part, I’m painting nature without human influence as much as I can, as pristine as possible. And so I thought, you know, it’s just it’s not going to work. He’s never going to give me an award. And so in 2021 I went to Maui. Told my family before I left, I’m not expecting awards. I’m not looking for awards. I’m not looking for sales. And I don’t care what happens. I I just really, really need to paint from my heart and paint what’s really important to me. And because of what’s going on in the Hawaiian Islands, the rate of extinction is incredibly high because of island biogeography and all the introduced species and how fast things are disappearing. So I made it a goal to find and paint and incorporate endangered species into every painting that I did during that week, and I largely stayed away from people doing things on my own. I mean, of course I tended to paint out some things, but I managed to get a permit to go up to the summit of Haleakala and drive up there in the evening, did a painting at sunset, drove down and camped at night, howling wind and driving horizontal rain all night long. Woke up in the morning. It was still crazy weather. Drove up to the summit, 3000 feet up, and you got to the summit, we were way above the storm clouds. It was crystal clear, no wind, totally calm. You could see a blanket of storm all around the island below. I started hiking at dawn. Hiked a few miles down into the crater, walking on one inch tall frost crystals on the trail. It was just the biggest crystals I’d ever seen. And as I got down into the crater, there was nobody around, no sound. Is the only time in my life I’ve been on this planet and heard nothing, no airplanes overhead, no birds, no wind, no insects, no voices, no cars. It was the most magically peaceful, incredibly beautiful experience as I watched the sun come up stream over the fog into the valley, into the crater there caldera and and then I intentionally put some endangered plants in the foreground. The Haleakala Silver Sword lives and is endemic only to the summit of Haleakala and nowhere else in the world, and they are critically endangered because of the risk of climate change pushing their habitat up higher and higher, and they’re basically going to run out of habitat pretty soon, but also grazing and the harvest and habitat damage and things and so it was really important. So throughout the rest of the event, I painted green sea turtles, Hanu and the scarlet honey creeper, Ev and Nene, the Hawaiian goose, and just, you know, all these endangered species, I was really fortunate to be able to find I did, like, months of research leading up to that, to figure out where they were. And I couldn’t take credit for it either. I mean, people helped me out a lot to be able to get to places and know where things were. And I submitted the pieces to the show without expecting anything to come of it, except I just wanted to tell the story. And my daughter flew out, my younger daughter, Janelle, and. And she forgot her her clothes for the gala that night, so we had to go shopping in Lahaina, and we’re going from store to store and trying to find stuff for us. We’re late coming in. And some friends, when I got there, said, Congratulations. And I said, what? You know, I didn’t expect anything. And I said, Did I win something? And she said, you kind of want everything, but I had, I had actually won the Best of Show from John stern and the for that painting up in Haleakala, also the honor Hawaii, honor Maui award, collective Choice Award, and some other awards. And I just that was really important for me, because I realized at the moment that we and, and it wasn’t like I just came at this on my own, like I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me, like she was saying, like, you gotta, you gotta, just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true, and I that’s exactly what I did for that show, but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit to that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work, and, you know, getting those, those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:30

beautiful, yes, yeah. I think that’s definitely something that I relate to. And I think many of our listeners will definitely relate to that feeling of, oh, if I, you know, get into this show, or, like, if I try to win this one award, then I’ll feel like I’ve really made it as an artist, and I can, you know, put it on my website and my CV, and feel like I’ve accomplished something. But oftentimes, I’ve met a lot of people who feel like a sense of emptiness afterward, where it’s like, maybe they’ve won the award, but then the high kind of gets lost because, I mean, yeah, you won the award, people move on. I mean, everyone else is going to move on too and try to win their other awards over there. And you might as well do it with work that you actually love to do, and if you win, that’s, once again, the bonus, right? The secondary bonus. So I think it’s very inspiring and very on brand for you to suddenly stubbornly persist with your vision. I think of yourself, you know, at that teacher is like, yeah, no, this is my vision. I’m just gonna stubbornly pursue it, and it will reach the right people. And that’s what counts, you know, yeah, and actually speaking of reaching the right people when, like, how was it for you? Like, how did you find your first collectors? And then what did you learn about that process that has helped you? I guess today in your career,

James McGrew: 1:08:07

I was just putting my work out there. I mean, I I just tried to get get my work into galleries, and figured that was the avenue to do so. And I was fortunate that that did kind of work and enough people. I mean, of course, I got turned down from places and shows all the time, like everybody, and I shouldn’t say everybody. I know some people that you know have incredible opportunities all the time, but there were lots of things that didn’t work out. But the ones that did, I just kept focusing on those and moving forward and and I felt like, the funny thing is, early on in my career, I was in that place where I didn’t think about sales, I didn’t think about any kind of recognition or anything, and I was only focused on just painting from the heart, what I love to do, and the stories I wanted to tell. And then over time, because I had to make the living and I had to support a family, is when I got sidetracked, I think, and having to think about the other stuff. And, you know, a number of years ago, really made that full circle transition to the realization that the awards and everything are great and the sales are, you know, great, but the bottom line is, if you just speak from the heart and you’re authentic and do what you did this for in the first place, hopefully things will work. And if it’s inspiring you, it’s probably going to inspire somebody else. If you’re working hard enough at it, and you’re really putting enough out there, it’s probably going to connect with somebody somewhere. And I just try to, and I realize that, you know, most of my work probably won’t connect with people, and that’s okay, but the ones that do, I’m really grateful for every one of those opportunities and those connections. And you know, obviously when somebody buys a painting, that’s always such a wonderful recognition. And I have some collectors that, you know, just brand new, collectors that have bought one painting, sometimes through a gallery, sometimes directly, sometimes from a plein air event, and they, you know, meet me while painting on site, or they see me painting out in a national park. And I give him a card and and say, Well, you know, I’m in these galleries, and you can go see my work over here. And because you can’t ever sell a painting in a national park, so that’s illegal, only concessions can sell in a national park. So I’ve never sold a painting in a national park. I’ve always just, you know, say, you know, if I’m inside, like, well, there’s the Worthington gallery in Springdale or in Grand Canyon, like over at cold studio, if I’m in Yosemite is like at the Ansel Adams Gallery. And, you know, wherever I am, I just refer people to something, but I forgot where I was going with that. Collectors. Oh yes, collectors, how to connect with those connectors. So, you know, it’s just, I think being present, being out there, putting your work in galleries, but then also doing plein air events was a huge door to open up a lot of avenues to collectors. Other galleries, other show invitationals came about that way. And I have had so many other opportunities arise because of those. And plein air events can be incredibly exhausting. It’s a huge amount of work and intensive painting in a short amount of time and subject to the weather and conditions that occur at that time, many of them have quick draws, and so you’ve got two hours to paint a painting, and I would often do like a 12 by 24 it’s about as big as I could do on a two hour window, and that required a huge amount of focus ahead of time. I’d usually have to think it through, visualize it in my mind, usually after a week of painting in that location, whichever park it was in, and and then just give it everything I had for two hours, and I could practically fall over and pass out afterwards. I just, you know, so much energy goes into painting in those situations, but to have the crowds around connecting and talking with you and and seeing the landscape and everything, that’s a really valuable opportunity to help inspire people and get people not just to connect to the work, but also to realize the relationship that artists and art have had with the preservation and public awareness of our national parks and the environment as a whole. And so I really value that opportunity. I’m always grateful for those those chances and those meetings and in those collectors so a lot of my collector base kind of came about that way. Some of them from other big national shows, like the American impressionist society national exhibit and OPA and the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit and and things like that. And and then International, you know, online competitions, the art salon, and they actually just bought one of my pieces for their permanent collection for this year’s exhibit. And so I’m excited for that show. And so we just, you know, every time you just, I think, if you just paint and put your heart in to it and put enough work out there and let enough people see it, it’s bound to connect with somebody at some point. And that’s just kind of a chain reaction that keeps building. If you keep keep at it, and keep putting it out there and keep continually working at it,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:09

yes, yeah, there’s no instant gratification. There no

James McGrew: 1:13:13

it’s a long, long process. And like, I’m especially grateful for my long term collectors. And I have one couple in California that has over 30 paintings, and you walk into their house and it’s filled with some of the best artists who have paint California like their whole house is a museum floor to ceiling. Actually have a few collectors that have lots of you know, paintings in their walls like that, just jam, salon style everywhere. And then I have collectors that have, you know, one painting per wall and just an assortment of different types, and some that can only, you know, afford a small piece. And I really value every one of those and along the whole spectrum,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:57

yeah, yeah. I mean anyone who can appreciate a painting and hang it up on their wall and live with it every day, right? See this painting every day. I think it’s, it’s an honor. It is, yeah, yeah. And actually did want to ask you, because you did so much, really tough public speaking learning on the go, do you find that there are elements of your your time, you know, doing public speaking at the parks that you pull into your career as an artist that has helped you with speaking to people about your work, absolutely.

James McGrew: 1:14:32

And you know, on one hand, art should speak for itself, and you know, oftentimes it does, and a lot of artists are pretty shy and don’t like to go to show openings and things like that, or do a podcast like this, or teach a workshop, or get on stage at plein air convention and do a demo, or, you know, things, but I and I wouldn’t have had I not had that background in environmental education. Education and doing interpretation so much, I think it would, or at least I think it would have probably been a lot more difficult and but I mean, there’s it’s not just comfort and the ease of being able to talk to people. When it comes to doing an interpretive program, it’s a lot of years of learning the techniques to actually build it structurally and and really be able to maximize your ability to reach the widest audience, to really connect with those people, no matter where they are in the political spectrum or their cultural background, or where they’re coming from in the world their age, there’s just so many variables that come into play and and those things, maybe they come naturally to a lot of people, but at least for me, it took a lot of work and a lot of practice and a lot of learning from other masters at teaching and and constantly trying to learn those things. And I found them really important for especially teaching workshops, doing demos at events and and just talking to people at a show opening reception. Many, many people I’ve talked to have considered a painting, but when you’re talking about plunking down 1000s of dollars for a work of art, they want to know more than just what’s the signature on the painting, how pretty is the painting? What’s the status, what’s the you know, what’s the significance. They want a connection with the artist too, and they can read about it, they can listen to a podcast like this, but there’s no substitute for one on one, actual communications and seeing the artist process in the field, talking to the artists at a show, opening reception. And so many collectors have said that that was really important for them, and in many of my collectors, over time, have become very good friends, and I’m really grateful for those friendships, and obviously grateful for the sales, but I’m even much more grateful for the friendships that I’ve developed, and the fact that so many of them tell me that they just really love being able to See my work on the walls, and it takes them to whatever park it is that I have a painting of, and reminds them of their experiences there, or inspires them to go up again. And for me, that’s that’s the most valuable thing when they’re sharing those those meaningful feelings and moments and what the work does for them and how it inspires them to make changes, ultimately, beautiful.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:27

Yeah, yeah. I think there’s so much about, like you said, there’s so many young artists who are introverted, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think many of us are quite introverted,

James McGrew: 1:17:39

but having I’m totally introverted. Oh yeah, me too, which is fine to learn how to break through that, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:46

yeah, you have to. I mean, a lot of the career of being an artist, besides painting, which is honestly one of the hardest parts, but it is literally like the given right for the career, like you have to have good work. You also have to be personable. You have to know how to talk to other people. Have, you know, like, not be afraid to be vulnerable and connect with people and even face, you know, the tough criticisms that come with it, like, Oh, someone might literally come up to you and be like, Oh, your work is really bad. It’s like, Oh, thanks. You just you have to, like, be like, Oh, thank you. Why do you think that you know or, like, just, you know it’s gonna happen, and you have to learn to not take it personally. Like, there’s a lot of interpersonal relationships that happen as an artist, especially if that’s like, the career that someone is pursuing. Yeah, and actually, this segues perfectly into my next question, which is, what advice would you give to someone who wants to pursue being an artist as their career?

James McGrew: 1:18:50

Well, the kind of things we’ve kind of covered so far, so if I could just kind of summarize them, I mean, obviously, be authentic and true to yourself. That’s number one. And because if you’re trying to fake something, it’s just not going to work. You have to speak from experience, and you have to speak from the heart and paint what you know, you know. And that is really number one. Number two is just the mileage. There’s no substitute for time in nature. Time painting from life. Doesn’t matter what your subject is. You know, figure painters doing life drawings, life paintings in Figure sessions. I tell kids all the time, like, if you draw or paint with one hand and all you have is the other hand, we’ll draw that or your pet or your sibling or the view out your backyard window. And like, we can’t always be it’s expensive and it’s difficult to get to national parks, especially with, you know, the advent of social media and crowding that we have today and stuff. So we can’t always, like, go to these incredible places that are super inspirational. Like, we can find beauty every day all around us, and we can find subjects to draw and paint and. Right? And the purpose of working from life so valuable. And I always tell people don’t work from photographs until you’ve painted enough paintings and taking photos at the same time to be able to see where and how and why. The human visual processing system is different than a camera recording system. And then once you’ve done enough of that, you can really know how to manipulate and adjust photos and incorporate them, and there’s nothing wrong with using them. The greatest masters of the 19th century all use photography. No matter how well they could draw the human figure or the landscape, they still use photography, and it’s just a matter of being able to know when and how to make those corrections and adjustments. One other thing about the importance of painting in nature and spending time in nature is we talked about plan art painting. But there’s one thing to just go out and paint outside. That’s another thing to really be present when you’re out in nature. Slow down, focus on everything around you and just really be in touch with everything and open up all of your senses. Be really mindful and be aware of the way you feel, the way the sun is or the wind on your skin, the smells that you’re smelling, the fragrances the flowers that are blooming nearby, or the way that light changes and shifts, and the way that an animal moves, or the way a bird, you know, song is actually I’m hearing bird songs running right now, you know, singing, or all these different things that ultimately come into play, And there is no substitute for time in nature, painting and drawing direct from life, but also just observation, like Asher B Durand and like all these 19th century masters talk about the importance of just studying nature, and part of that is book studying. We talked about my school background, but way more important that is just the observation and really connecting and opening yourself up and being really present without being distracted with other stuff, or, you know, what’s going on in the internet, or your music you’re listening to, or whatever, we just really, really be present in that I have found to be invaluable with really slowing down and incorporating a lot more into my mind and experiencing more, seeing more along the way too. But then also, like we were talking about, the other side that’s really valuable is that interpersonal communication, being open, listening to everybody, incorporating other people’s perspectives and opinions and not taking things personally. You know, I mean, we’ve all done that. We’ve been there at times and taken criticism really painfully from a show rejection or a gallery rejection and or something not working out or appear, not recognizing your work or whatever. And like, I don’t really pay attention anymore on social media. And for a long time, a long time ago, it seemed like it did matter. But now I just use it when I I want to put something out there to try and connect people with the subject that I’m painting, you know, add the interpretive, environmental story behind my work, or help other artists with questions that they have about materials, techniques or or things like that. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s all about just helping others, listening to others, sharing, and trying to just tell the story that of what inspires my work. And then, of course, the the business side of just straight making sales. You know, you really I greatly value and respect and trust all of my galleries, and that’s a really important relationship. They trust me. We have good relationships. We know we’re not going to take each other’s sales or, you know, or undermine something. And you know, somebody sees a painting in a gallery, and you know, they see my work later, I will give the commission to the gallery, and the galleries know that, and I think that’s really important to build that trust. And I really genuinely, like all the people who are the directors and owners of my galleries, and it’s taken a long time working. I mean, it’s hard to even get into a gallery when you’re starting out and and it’s hard to find the galleries that you can trust and and I’ve had some less than favorable experiences of some galleries that were not trustworthy. And, you know, obviously I’m not in those galleries anymore, and but all the galleries that I’m in now, I really, really value those relationships, and so it’s important to find those connections that you trust. And then there’s the stuff that we can do, like we’re doing right now. FASO is an incredibly valuable tool, and it’s not just because you are interviewing me on behalf of FASO, but I do have to say that genuinely, the things that you guys do are invaluable to. Marketing into making sales from this podcast, listening to your interviews, listening to my friends and other artists that I’ve worked with. Some are, you know, just acquaintances. Some are really good friends that you interview, and it’s always fun to learn from them and gather more bits of information here and there, or just, you know, see, that’s so cool. You know, I watched their career develop, too, and but then also the marketing that you guys do on social media, your own marketing, the the collectors alerts. So when people sign up for my newsletter, which is the most important way to connect with my collectors, and you know my newsletters that I send out is the most important way that people get the majority of info for upcoming workshops, from upcoming shows, things that I’ve had happen and and then when people sign up for that, they also have the opportunity to sign up for new artwork alerts. And so every time I put a painting on my website, I get emails from people inquiring about a piece. And, you know, people buy paintings that way all the time, and most time they’re headed to galleries. So the galleries make the sales, and oftentimes before they even get there, and it’s because of the the artwork alerts that you guys put out there. So anyway, and every way that we can put our work out there is valuable and and I have to say it’s you guys are a really valuable tool in that, that that toolkit,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:31

yeah, well, we’re really happy to hear that. I also use all of the my websites, also FASO website, and objectively, you know, I know that I’m obviously, like their host for their podcast, but I also really benefit a lot from using a FASO website. And it’s just, it’s it’s intuitive, it’s easy to use, and they’re always improving it. The team is really great. It’s a small team. They’re always happy to help. And I think in the end, you know, that’s better than you know, going for a bigger company where, like, you’re talking to an AI Chatbot. No hate on AI chatbots, but I think talking to a real person is a million times better

James McGrew: 1:27:10

or trying to design something yourself. Like, you know, I’d much rather have a paintbrush in my hand and be out in nature than on a computer screen.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:27:16

So Exactly, yeah, even though now FASO does have both capabilities, because they have a Squarespace option, where that is a FASO site, but with, like, the capabilities of the Squarespace, like changing it however you want. But for the most part, I think it’s also, I’m totally with you. It’s like, but

James McGrew: 1:27:34

that’s a relatively new invention, like, when I first developed this website a long time ago, it was either learn code, hire a professional, or your guys’s templates, and that made things such an easy segue into being able to put my work out there without all the other stuff. You know, hiring a professional meant having to constantly interact with them as a third party, having the FASO website, you can do it on your own whenever you want, and that’s super, super valuable, without having to know how to do the coding most time.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:09

Yeah, exactly, yeah. They really got rid of the gatekeeping of like, oh, well, in order to be a professional, you need to have, like, certain money to hire a coder to do your website. Instead, it’s like, Oh, you just pay for a website, and you already have these templates, which super great again, for anyone who wants to save time and use that time in the studio, like many of us. But yeah, really happy that that you’ve enjoyed it. And actually, that’s my next question, which is, of course, on your website, I’m sure you have this information. But do you have a year would you like to tell us about your upcoming shows? Or do you have any upcoming workshops? Anything you got going on that you’d

James McGrew: 1:28:51

like to promote? Sure, thank you. So workshops, nothing really set right now, but I am discussing things and for a workshop in Yosemite. So if anybody’s interested, just have them send me a message to my website. I’ll be compiling a list, so I’ll make sure I get those people aware when we do start setting stuff up. But as far as upcoming shows, I have the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit this summer down in Southern California, the the art salon in New York at the summer as well, and then this fall, I have shows in Grand Canyon and Zion invitationals for those two incredible places. I always have an annual show at one of my galleries in Berkeley, Holton Studio Gallery. They have an annual all Artist gallery. They have an incredible group of artists, and they make these beautiful solid oak and walnut frames. So we just send them the paintings, and they make the frames. They design them for the work. And it’s incredible opportunity there. And then the most impressive thing I’m working on right now is for my solo show that opens at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite. And. And that actually opens on May the fourth, and it hangs for almost couple months. And so that’s like the painting behind me right now, and that’s what I’ve been working really long hours, like 12 to 15 hour days the last couple of weeks to get things together for that upcoming show. And then I always have to provide for my galleries, Del Monte fine art in Carmel and Holton in Berkeley, Worthington gallery in Springdale, right outside of Zion and and then, of course, the antelopes gallery in Yosemite. And so it’s kind of juggling all those things and planning things far enough out, but right now, it’s, it’s really intense for an upcoming solo show.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:30:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thank you for being here despite I know how busy you’ve been. Seems like it’s been really hectic for you, so I’m really grateful that you were able to spare some some of your precious time for us here on the podcast.

James McGrew: 1:31:02

Thank you. My pleasure being here, and I really appreciate the opportunity, and I’m honored. And you know, it’s great to have the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:11

Yeah, of course, it was wonderful. And actually, before you go, do you mind telling us what your website and social media are?

James McGrew: 1:31:17

Sure? So at James McGrew fine art for social and Facebook and Instagram. I’m working on others, but haven’t had the time to put those together yet on other platforms and then. But my main place to go that is updated by far the most frequently and is absolutely the most important way to connect, is my website, and it’s James McGrew, fine art, com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:43

awesome, perfect. And I will include all of your links in the show notes as well. For anyone who’s just listening, go check out his work. It is absolutely breathtaking. Don’t miss out. And then if you can go see his work in person, real life, go check it out. So thank you.

James McGrew: 1:31:57

That is actually pretty important. Paintings do look different on screen than they do in person. I do a lot of work to try and create optical illusions with the working properties of my paint that can’t be replicated other ways.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:32:12

Just size wise, it really compresses everything into a different feeling. I mean that like you can’t really capture grandeur in such a small screen, you know, like you have to go see it in person. You know, as much as you can, if anyone really can afford to go do that or is nearby to one of the places where your work is for sure, go check.

James McGrew: 1:32:34

And another great opportunity with the website is the ability to write an artist statement for each painting and like, especially for my upcoming show here with all the interpretive environmental messages behind each important piece in the show, I do write a lot on the website, and that gives me wonderful opportunity to let people read all that information and make those connections so awesome. Be sure to read the interpretive stuff with it too.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:02

Yes, for sure, awesome. Well, thank you so much again, James, and I’m really happy it didn’t rain on us today outdoors, as you should be,

James McGrew: 1:33:13

started working outside and even on studio pieces more than 10 years ago, just because it’s closer to the plein air experience and don’t have to worry about when I do use solvents in the early stages of a painting. I don’t ever use solvents indoors anymore.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:27

So very smart, man. Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Ellen Howard, a Boise-based landscape painter, instructor, art advocate, and writer who works primarily in oils and gouache, known for her tranquil depictions of nature, water, and luminous skies. In this conversation, Ellen shares how she transitioned from a demanding venture capital career into full-time art, guided by lifelong creative influences—especially her grandfather’s travel illustrations and drawings. She explains how an invitation to an oil painting class reignited her passion, leading to years of focused study, plein air practice, and a deep commitment to painting nature’s peaceful moments, from marshlands and seascapes to sunsets and Idaho’s mountains. Ellen also describes how surgery led her to experiment with gouache, a medium whose quick-drying vibrancy and spontaneity now balances and informs her slower, layered oil work. Drawing on her business background, she emphasizes time management, relationship-building, consistent marketing, particularly newsletter marketing, and “showing up and saying yes” as crucial to building opportunities and gallery representation. She encourages artists to develop a body of work they truly love, understand where it fits in the market, be patient with career growth, and actively create their own opportunities rather than waiting to be discovered. Finally, Ellen tells us about her upcoming gouache workshop in Sun Valley, her France Alps workshop, and her participation in major exhibitions like the California Gold Medal Show and the Brinton Museum invitational.

Ellen’s FASO site:
ellenhowardart.com/

Ellen’s Social Media:
facebook.com/ellen.howard.5

instagram.com/ellenhowardart/

Sign up for Ellen’s Newsletter!
ellenhowardart.com/email-newsletter

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Transcript:

Ellen Howard: 0:00

Just show up and say, Yes, you need to be willing to give up yourself to to help. It’s not always about showing up and seeing like, Oh, can I be in this gallery, or, you know, can I be in this show? But, you know, I’m happy to help with XYZ. So I think getting involved that way you learn more about the business, you learn things about yourself, like, what where am I? Where are my skills on the business side, what am I good at? What am I not so good at? What? Where do I need help on that side, but I think the willingness to help others is a big business plus.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:40

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world. In order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Ellen Howard, a Boise based landscape painter, instructor, art advocate and writer who works primarily in oils and gouache, known for her tranquil depictions of nature, water and luminous skies. In this conversation, Ellen shares how she transitioned from a demanding venture capital career into full time art guided by lifelong creative influences, especially her grandfather’s travel illustrations and drawings. She explains how an invitation to an oil painting class reignited her passion, leading to years of focused study plein air practice and a deep commitment to painting nature’s peaceful moments, from marshlands and seascapes to sunsets and Idaho’s mountains. Ellen also describes how surgery led her to experiment with gouache, a medium whose quick drawing, vibrancy and spontaneity now balances and informs her slower, layered oil work, drawing on her business background, she emphasizes time management, relationship building, consistent marketing, particularly newsletter marketing and showing up and saying yes as crucial to building opportunities and gallery representation, she encourages artists to develop a body of work they truly love, understand where it fits in the market, be patient with career growth and actively create their own opportunities, rather than waiting to be discovered. Finally, Ellen tells us about her upcoming gouache workshop in Sun Valley, her France Alps workshop, and her participation in major exhibitions like the California gold medal show and the Brinton museum Invitational. Welcome Ellen to the FASO podcast. How are you today? I’m doing well.

Ellen Howard: 2:35

Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I really appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Of course, I’m really happy to have you, because I think your work has such a unique voice to it. I really, really love your use of color and how you really try to capture specifically those sunsets which are so so so unique. And I feel like you, you really do a great job at basically grabbing the portrait of every sunset, which I think is so wonderful to look at, yeah,

Ellen Howard: 3:04

it’s one of my favorite themes to create,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:09

yeah, yeah. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Ellen Howard: 3:17

Sure, well, I grew up, actually in New England, and and then moved to the Bay Area to raise my family. And now I am located in Boise, Idaho, where the mountains are, and I’m a landscape painter, working primarily in oils and gouache, and I love both of those mediums. Gives me a lot of versatility. And I am also a big art advocate and an instructor for classes and workshops, and I also do a lot of art writing, so a lot of different hats.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:48

Yes, yeah, you are definitely a business lady as much as you’re an artist, which I really love, because it is so hard, it is so hard to have both parts, or both hats, so to speak. Since normally a lot of people go about pursuing this career, they start from the art side and then develop the business side. But you had the unique background of starting in the business side and then going into the art side, which is really awesome.

Ellen Howard: 4:17

Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, on both sides, which has been nice,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:25

yes, and we’ll definitely dive more into that. But first I wanted to ask you, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Ellen Howard: 4:34

Well, I think I’ve always had an artist’s heart. I grew up in a creative family. My mother kind of dabbled in watercolor. My father was a musician, but it was really my grandfather who inspired me. He was in the airlines in the 1930s and 40s, but he was an illustrator. He would do cartoons. He was offered a job at Walt Disney, actually, which he turned down to be in the airlines, but he would come home. Home with all these exotic tales of his travels in Europe and Asia and the Middle East, and he would show me all of his drawings of the people in their traditional garb. So it just spurred a lot of imagination for me. So it wasn’t really until later in life that I got to pursue art. My parents got divorced at a really early age, and I was very practical, and I wanted to make sure that I could support myself, so I ended up going into business first, but I did minor in art history in college, and then, as my kids were growing up, I was involved in their elementary school, and I ran their art in Action Program for seven years, and then I also worked part time in a nearby college in their exhibitions area. So I helped with putting on their shows and talking to donors and sponsors and things like that. So I was always kind of involved in it, but not able to do it until later in life.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:07

Yeah, and when was that moment where you finally picked the brush back up?

Ellen Howard: 6:12

Well, it was funny. I actually was invited to go to an art class with a friend, an oil painting class, and she’s like, do you want to try this with me? And I’m like, Okay, sure. And it was really as soon as I picked the brush up and started painting, I was off, like, I just knew it was what I wanted to do. And I just started taking more lessons. I started at a community college and went to workshops and found teachers in my area that were experts in their field and took instruction from them. I spent a couple years doing drawing classes with charcoal, worked in pastel, and then got introduced to plein air painting out in the field, which I totally loved. So it just, it just kept expanding, like the more people I would meet, they would say, oh, try this, or go to this class and and now it’s just turned into an incredible journey and wonderful career for me. So I feel very grateful I didn’t expect this when I when I started. So I’m very grateful for the opportunities,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:18

yeah, and I find that that’s one of the beautiful things about life as we continue living it, is that it continues to surprise us. Yeah, like the more we follow those little things that interest us, the more it opens these doors we could have never even imagined. And I think that’s it’s, it’s an interesting like perspective to have too, especially when, when you’re young, like to realize this. Because I think we all, and I’m sure you may have experienced this too, have kind of decided I want to go from point A to point B, not realizing that life might throw you at point C, and it’s actually much better than point B,

Ellen Howard: 8:01

yeah, yeah. I’d always thought like, oh, I wished I had started art sooner, but I feel like my background has been helpful too in my career as an artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:14

Yes, yes, for sure, and we will dive into that. But first I wanted to ask you, because you do have both oil paintings and gouache paintings. And I wanted to ask when you first started, did you first start with oils and then fell into gouache? Or when did that romance with those two materials happen for you?

Ellen Howard: 8:35

Well, I did start with oils because I was planning on painting with oils and in the studio, and actually, what got me into gouache about five years ago is I had some surgery and I wasn’t able to lift my arm high, you know, and I usually stand when I when I paint. And so I was like, What can I do? And wash is just starting to have a resurgence. I’m like, Oh, I’ll try this medium, and I just fell in love with it. It’s, to me, it’s, it’s almost like oils. Obviously it’s water soluble, but the the vibrancy of the medium is really fun, and it kind of informs one informs the other, like I take more time with my oils and their primary for my galleries or competitions and oils can take, you know, on plein air, you can finish a piece in a day, but usually for a studio piece, it can take a couple days to a week or two weeks to finish. And sometimes I just need to switch and do something that’s quick and spontaneous. So the energy behind my gouache works and trying to figure out compositions, and then usually I can do something within two or three hours. So it’s kind of a nice feeling to finish a project. So that balance is really nice. So I really have enjoyed using both mediums, and people have been really responding to my gouache work too, which has been great.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:59

Yeah. Yeah, that must be really exciting too, because I bet there’s some sort of also, like, you know, when you go back and forth between the mediums, there must also be a little bit of like, oh, this, this is kind of the cool technique. I can pull this into oil painting, and then, oh, this is, this is something I like to do with oil paints, and I should try this on the gouache to see how it reacts, you know,

Ellen Howard: 10:20

yeah, there’s you can definitely layer with both mediums. The oil, you definitely have more texture and the juiciness of the oils. The gouache is more matte, but you can layer and get some really good marbling effects. It’s just a great medium to experiment in a smaller format, usually gouache is done a little bit smaller than your oils too.

Laura Arango Baier: 10:45

Yeah, that makes sense, since it dries so fast and you can’t really Chase everything all at once, yeah,

Ellen Howard: 10:53

but it’s fun doing it pioneer,

Laura Arango Baier: 10:55

yeah, oh yeah, I bet I just, I’m sorry, I just wanted to ask if you start your gouache on a white background instead.

Ellen Howard: 11:03

Yeah, I’ve experimented a couple different ways. I have toned it like with the yellow ochre, and I am experiment like with my oils. A lot of times I’ll do transparencies before I start the finished product, but I’ve found that I kind of like working on just the white background with the gouache, but I am still experimenting with a lot of different ways to use it.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:27

Yeah, yeah. I was just curious, because I feel like, since gouache is so matte, and it does lose a little bit of that vibrancy once it dries, I would be worried that maybe, like, starting on a darker tone background, kind of like, you know, with oil paints, it would lose also even more of that brightness.

Ellen Howard: 11:47

Yeah, I do it like a very light yellow ochre, yeah. But I agree, it depends on how you layer it and how thick you use the paint. I think one of the way I like to use gouache is in a thicker format. A lot of people use it thinner and so more leaning on watercolor sometimes than on the thickness of gouache. But I think that’s the beauty of the of the medium is when it’s when it’s layered on a thick, thicker basis.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that also makes me curious, can you tell us a little bit more about also your subject matter? So what is it about nature that really draws you in? And then can you tell us a little bit about your process when it comes to painting your work?

Ellen Howard: 12:39

Oh sure. So yeah, I love being out in nature. I’m a big Walker. I hike all the time, and so it just to me, nature is very peaceful, and it gets me to slow down. And so I think, you know, everything’s a lot about deadlines and the rush around, and especially plein air painting. Like I know the light changes a lot, but soon as I set up, there’s just a calm that comes over me, and then I’m like, Okay, I’m set to paint. This is my time. And, yeah, I just think it brings me a lot of peace. And I think my collectors, that’s one thing that has been continually I’ve got a compliment on, is that my paintings look like they’re very tranquil and peaceful. And then when they look at them, they feel, you know, a sense of calm. So that’s that’s been great. And so as far as plein air painting, you know, I do walk around quite a bit to try to find a scene that really excites me or I have an emotional connection with and then I set up. I usually do a small sketch, and then sometimes I do a color wash on my plein air, or sometimes I go right into to mixing the paint. And then, as far as my studio work, it does take me a little bit longer. I’ll do three or four drawings on a subject matter, and then sometimes I’ll do a value study, and then go into the final project. But I’m usually drawn to subject matters that are around water. It’s been I’ve lived on the coast for a long time, so the ocean has been a big, big thing for me. Marshlands in the Bay Area. I love that feeling of the birds coming in, the peaceful, peacefulness of that area. And then sunsets too. I actually started painting sunsets during covid. So I had been painting a lot of seascapes, and covid was such a dark and scary time, and I wanted to switch into a warmer palette. You know? What was it that was more joyful, I guess, a warmer, yeah, warmer palette. And so I started studying sunsets and going out and photographing them and and doing them on location. And it’s just become something that I’ve been really drawn to and that. And then, actually, now in in Boise, in Idaho, I’m. Very drawn to the mountains, so that has been a big surprise for me, how much I enjoy painting the mountains. So it’s a different feeling. You know, I’ve been drawn to the transitory elements in nature, kind of the fleeting moments of light, either early morning or that late afternoon sunset, but the grandeur of the mountains and the permanence of that, and then also just the cloud formations. Like I didn’t understand what Big Sky really meant until I got out here, and there’s just more sky. There’s more changes in the sky out here, and so that’s been a real excitement for me. So I’ve been gearing my work a little bit more towards that lately.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:48

Yeah, yeah. And I love that, because that also highlights, you know, how where we are can really affect what we notice and what we choose to paint. You know, like it is wonderful, of course, to paint lakes and water and, you know, these sunsets. But also it is nice to be able to explore, like, oh, this new thing that I observe and I love, which is mountains and how it’s also really cool, the balance between like, the fleeting impermanence of like clouds and sunset, and then also the permanence of mountains. They’ve been there longer than we have been alive, and will continue to exist beyond us, which also brings a sense of peace, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s very poetic, yeah, yeah. And then I guess also, I wanted to know you also wrote a very interesting quote in your biography, in your website, which is painting as a way of being. Do you mind elaborating on that a little bit?

Ellen Howard: 17:04

It’s just a part of me now, like I look back at before my life, when I wasn’t painting, and now, how a huge change that, you know, I was raising my children and I was in venture capital early on, and so I had a great career in business, but the whole art scene has really taken over my whole life. I would say that every day I’m doing something with art. It’s either I’m painting or I’m writing something, or meeting with an artist or going to an art exhibit. It’s the way I show up in the world, creatively, who I am. So I don’t think I could ever not have art in my life at this point. So yeah, it’s, it means a lot to me.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:57

Yeah, yeah. I love that, because it, it must be a huge contrast as well. It sounds like, you know, that your capital and business sounds like a very chaotic, driven, very, you know, not peaceful type of environment, compared to, you know, painting in a studio where you are your own company for many, many hours.

Ellen Howard: 18:20

Yeah. But also too, like, it was very busy, it was a demanding job, but part of my job was also building relationships between the clients and the portfolio managers, and I think that has helped me in the art world too, because I’ve been a big art advocate trying to build programs for artists. And currently I’m the vice president of the California art club, and I was co chair of the San Francisco chapter for many years. So I really enjoyed, you know, putting together paint outs or critiques or demos, and just trying to bring people together in the art world. It’s been a passion of mine also,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:07

yeah, no, and I think that’s great, because there’s, I think a lot of people have the misconception that artists are introverted, and therefore we’re we don’t go out, we don’t talk to people without realizing that actually this career, as I’ve seen it, is heavily dependent on networking and making connections and going out there and meeting people. So I think that’s an awesome thing to you know, go from business into painting and then deciding, oh, this is something that I think is important to share with others and to help others realize that this is something that can build community. This is something that will bring opportunities to others, instead of, you know, we’re all just hiding in our studio,

Ellen Howard: 19:55

and I think that’s hard as it was hard for me as an artist, I should say that, you know, I went. From going to the office every day to being alone in the studio doing your work, and obviously you have to do that work, but it’s great to be with other artists, because there’s some kind of energy when you get around other artists, like, oh, did you hear about this? Or, you know, or you learn a new technique, or find out something different, and, yeah, just talk about historical works, you know, as on a trip, and we were talking about an artist and all his compositional designs. And, you know, just diving into that kind of stuff really is helpful, you know. And you don’t get that by sitting in an office or, I mean, in your studio, you know, you get that, you know, being around people at a paint out and just casually talking to somebody, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 20:49

definitely yes, yeah. And that actually brings me to a question, which is, when did you become a full time artist? What was that transition like for you.

Ellen Howard: 21:00

I think it was probably around 2012 2014 I started devoting more and more time to being an artist. You’ll laugh. I think in the beginning, I used to set up my easel in my little galley kitchen and then try to cook at the same time I was painting, you know, that kind of stuff. So I got my own studios. That was a big step to have an outside studio, and then to be able to devote more of my time to pursuing my my art, my art background, so in creating the work so and I just, I kept taking more and more classes and meeting more people and and then other doors started opening too. I got into some shows, and I started locally, and then started to get into some of the national shows too.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:54

Yeah, yeah. So you must have spent, like, a good amount of time, you know, building your portfolio and then also networking. And did you, you know, build, maybe, like a series of paintings and then, you know, apply with those two shows? Or did you talk to galleries? How did that work for you?

Ellen Howard: 22:12

I think I started really with local shows, getting into local shows, and seeing what was accepted, and then getting into some of the national shows, and then also going to galleries that I was interested in, going to their open studios or their and just seeing how that worked and who was represented. You know, what their work looked like. You know, would my work fit into that? But it took a it was a long process. It wasn’t something that you just walk in the door and you’re accepted into a gallery so but yeah, after many years, I did actually approach a gallery in Carmel, and I brought him 10 of my pieces and and he said, Okay, I’ll try you out on these five if you sell, you know, we’ll, we’ll give you a chance in the gallery. So, and I sold in the first week three of my paintings. So that was, I was super grateful. It was a great relationship. And, yeah, so that was kind of the start of of getting myself into some galleries,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:24

that’s awesome. So since you do have your background in business and having a more business minded sort of approach to your art, how has your background been the most helpful for your career as an artist? What has been like something that has been really, really helpful for you.

Ellen Howard: 23:42

I think I have strong time management skills. I remember in the beginning, I would take my daytime or out and I would just go, like a nine to one is painting time like, you know, no phone calls, no you know, appointments or whatever. So I was able to manage my time. I think my organized organizational skills have been good. I can put things together. So I’ve put together independent exhibitions, which have been super fun in the Bay Area, got a bunch of artists and got the venue and put together shows, so that it’s helped. I think my ability just to talk to people. You know, in my business background, I had to make a lot of phone calls or go to meetings, and just my ability to present, you know, I think that’s helped quite a bit. And then the marketing, I think just being able to market yourself, I think, is really key too,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:39

yeah, yeah. And that’s actually segues really well into my next question, which is, in your experience, what has been the best marketing or business tactic that you’ve used that has either led to more sales or more opportunities

Ellen Howard: 24:54

for you? Well, I think the funniest thing is, I didn’t expect it, but I started. Newsletter eight years ago, and I started it actually, really for myself. I was, it was an accountability newsletter. So every month I was like, What did I accomplish? What did I get into? Any shows, you know, what paintings that I accomplish? What am I learning? What can I pass on? So, like, the fifth of, the 15th of every month. If I didn’t have, you know, an idea of what I’ve done, I would panic. I’m like, Okay, I’ve got to produce this newsletter at the end of the month. What am I going to say? And so that is just and I’ve done it every month. The last eight, eight years, I have not missed a month, and I think it’s just grown. And I’ve got a nice following on my newsletter. I really enjoy writing it, and it’s, it’s more I do, obviously show my work and what’s coming up for me professionally, but I always come up with a theme, like, what is going on in the world that could help other people, you know, or what, what’s going on. It’s important. Like in February, I took a spin on the Olympics with the figure skaters. And one woman won, Elise, Lou, and another person, Amber, she, you know, she was designated to win, but she had a mistake. And then the male, the quad King, missed some of his jumps. So my the title of the of the newsletter is, what does success look like? So, and I referred it back to a painter, you know, does success look like something that you know you’re getting into every single show, or are you continually putting in work, and all of a sudden you miss one thing, or, you know, so it’s, what does that look for you? You know, all the years of work behind something that people don’t see. So that was an interesting topic. And then this, this month, I just sent out, what, are you tending what matters to what you’re tending to. You know, where are you giving your attention? And with spring coming up in the gardens and things blooming like, how are you tending so, how you tending to your creative life? You know what’s important. You know, as an you know, is there a rush to see your finish painting, or is it you’re tending your garden by tilling your soil, you know the bud is just coming up, and then at time it’ll bloom. So in your creative life, having the patience to see something to fruition, not to always be in a rush to have it finished, which is something I struggle with too. You know, I can get impatient.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:45

So at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art, marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile, friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, yeah. And I love that because that the impatience can also really apply to the career itself, right? Like, Oh, I really want to get into all of these shows, or I really just want to start selling a ton of my work. And it’s it would be nice, but at the same time, like it really does build up slowly, and it takes a lot of patience to allow these opportunities to also happen. Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to ask you to first, what does success look like for you? I.

Ellen Howard: 30:00

Yeah, that’s a hard question. I guess when I finished a painting that has been different for me, that I’ve tried a new technique and I felt that it came out successful. Sometimes it is hard when you feel very strongly about a work and you submit it to a show and it doesn’t get accepted. So that’s difficult. But I think as long as you keep learning and your work keeps improving, so I can look back to last year and say, oh, okay, I’ve improved in that area, there’s still more to go. So that’s what success. As long as I’m enjoying the process and I’m excited about what I’m doing, and I’m continuing and not giving up that successful.

Laura Arango Baier: 30:45

Yeah, that’s awesome, and that’s a great point. I feel like first i’ll probably link that newsletter in our show notes, so that people can go read it and also sign up for your newsletter. And I think also, because it’s such a I think it’s a really important topic, because it’s very natural for that perspective of success to change as time goes on and as your career develops. Like how you said, at first it might be, oh, getting into this show or trying to get into this one Gallery, and then maybe you realize, oh, you know what, this gallery, and I don’t really work. So now I got to change my success vision to something else. And I think that also ties a little bit into what we mentioned at the beginning, which is that life will sometimes, instead of taking you from point A to point B, it’ll take you to point C, and it’s much, much more fun and much more interesting, and just opens way more doors than you would think, yeah.

Ellen Howard: 31:44

And to think broader than just shows like, there’s a lot of path to art. And I think people get stuck into, oh, I have to go down this one street when there’s 10 streets you can go down to and and also, I think, you know, you have to be patient as far as far as what? Going back to the newsletter, you know, it took a while to build my email list, and I find with art, it’s a very emotional purchase. The collectors want to get to know you as an artist. So it’s an easy way, when you start doing a newsletter for them to see who you are, learn about who you are, see if they like your style, without having the pressure of purchasing something. They like your work. They can come to your show. They can come to your open studio. They can reach out to you. But they I have found, you know, even with Open Studios, usually the first year people are not buying that much, they have to get a feel of who you are, and then you build that relationship, and then sales happen after that,

Laura Arango Baier: 32:52

yeah, yeah. And that’s an excellent point, again, with patience. And then I wanted to ask you, how does one go about building that newsletter list.

Ellen Howard: 33:05

So I started out actually, with friends. I was, you know, would you be on my newsletter list? And then every time I went out to a show, I’d hand out my card, and I’d mention, hey, I do a newsletter if you’re interested in signing up. This is, you know, the link, or, you know, when people came to my Open Studios, I always had a notebook out, you know, here’s my newsletter, if you’d like to subscribe, you know, send up your, you know, your email list. So it was over years, just building it through exhibitions, shows, things like that, that I had signups.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:41

Yeah, and again, it’s that patience. And now you have so so many people on your list, I’m assuming, and I think we spoke about this last time as well, that it is artists and enthusiasts and also collectors. So one of the things that I’m curious about as well is, how do you balance out the topics of your your newsletters for collectors versus artists? Because obviously an artist might be reading your newsletter to find out more about process, to hear more about your maybe a little bit about your philosophy on how you how you work through a specific problem versus a collector. Might be a lot more interested in the story, the narrative, the what led to this piece? Part. How do you balance out those topics?

Ellen Howard: 34:35

I usually kind of do a combination of both. They usually say, pick one, like if your collector focus or artist focus, but I don’t do that. So if there’s a new piece, I talk about like, why I painted that piece, you know, what? Why was I drawn to that piece? Where was it? You know, and location wise. So with all my new work, I do say that to give the call. Lecture and understanding of why I’m painting that particular subject matter. And then I do have information about workshops or how I teach, you know, things that I have done that have been helpful for students. You know this last I taught in Carmel a couple weeks ago, and I had the students just do a quick six by eight value study before they did their color. And everybody always struggles with value, but just having that discipline of doing that, a small one, you know, I said, Okay, we’re only going to do, you know, 40 minutes. Give them a time frame, and then it just gives them the structure to create their their color. And they can use that as a reference, too. So I do give tips like that, or I’m working with gouache, you know how that process is going. So I do, I do go both areas,

Laura Arango Baier: 35:53

nice, yeah, because it’s, it is interesting to know, like, considering, like I said, artists just have such a different way of reaching out to specific groups of people, like, for example, in social media, I’ve noticed, at least in my following, most of my followers and fellow artists who are also looking at my work, but definitely on my newsletter. I also do notice that it’s a little bit mixed. It’s some artists, but also some people who are not painters, who are just curious. So that’s why I was also curious. Like, huh, how do how does one balance that out? Because so many opportunities and so many things can come through from those newsletters. Like, maybe an artist, a fellow artist, might be like, Oh, this would be great for a show. But a collector might be like, Oh, this would be great on my wall, you know. So it’s a little bit of, like, a complicated, you know, like, which path do we choose? But having that option of, like, just both and balancing it out, that also sounds like a very good midway point.

Ellen Howard: 37:00

Well, even for artists like, hearing about why I painted something like, I think that backstory, you know, even though it’s geared more for a collector, artists are like, Okay, why am I, you know, painting this subject matter. What is it about this subject matter that I enjoy painting? Because I think you know, no matter who you are, if you’re not excited about what you’re painting, the painting is not going to come out great. You know, there’s not going to be that energy or there’s an emotional tie to what you’re creating. So understanding your why, I think, is very important.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:38

Yeah, yeah, that is true. It is very important for artists to self reflect through also observing other artists and their self reflection. That’s a very good point. I also wanted to ask you, what are some business skills that you would recommend for artists to really focus on, I mean, maybe, like, your top one or two skills that you would say, build that

Ellen Howard: 38:06

just show up and say yes. And so what I mean about that is you have to be in person. You have to show up. So if there’s an open house, you know, if there’s an art exhibition, you just never know who you’re going to meet. And one of the things that opened the door for me, a big deal is that I was looking I had a studio, and this woman, Ruth waters, was opening up a museum with studios, and we were friends, and I said to her, is there anything I can do to help you? And she said, Yes. And she goes, will you be one of my curators? And at the time, I was like, Oh, I don’t have time. I just got my studio. I want to do my work, and but I knew she needed help, so I said, Yes. And that opened up a huge amount of doors. So I served on the curatorial committee. I met a lot of artists, and then eventually I proposed my own show, which was very successful. I worked with two other artists, and it was 19 artists for the exhibition. It was plein air to studio. Very well attended. John stern did our forward for us in our brochure, which was incredible and and that led to me being asked to co chair the California art club San Francisco chapter. So you just don’t know where something is going to lead. And it was just me being willing to help her out in the beginning. So I think as an artist, you need to also, you need to be willing to give of yourself to to help. It’s not always about showing up and seeing like, Oh, can I be in this gallery? Or, you know, can I be in this show? But you know, if. You’re a great writer. Oh, can I help you write an email for this show? Or I’m happy to help with XYZ. So I think getting involved that way, you learn more about the business. You learn things about yourself, like, what, where am I? Where are my skills on the business side, what am I good at? What am I not so good at where do I need help on that side? You know, some people are great with social media. Oh, I’ll do your social media blitzes for your show. But I think the willingness to help others is a big business.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:37

Plus, yes, yeah. You know, that’s very underrated, and you’re probably one of the very first people I’ve heard mentioned, you know, helping. Like, yes, it’s, there’s the way of helping, of like, giving information to other people, kind of, like, how we’re doing with the podcast. But I think, actually, you know, physically, for someone to show up somewhere and as an artist, and offer help, offer assistance that’s really great for building relationships, building your skills, building all of these things that, in the end, like will help your career move forward. So that’s a really, really great tip, and very unexpected too, which I love. Yeah. I mean, you never know what, what someone’s experience might be, kind of like yours. That, oh, volunteering led to this opportunity, and that led to this other opportunity, and then this other opportunity. And you also mentioned, oh, if you’re a great writer, you also mentioned last time that some of your writing has also been in magazine, yeah, can’t remember which one now, yeah, plein air.

Ellen Howard: 41:44

Yeah, plein air magazine, yeah, yes. So yeah, I’ve been working about nine months as a guest contributor for that which has been great, because I get to interview artists, learn more about their process, or I deep dive into a topic. Rayleigh scatter is the next article coming out. It’s how we see the colors of a sunset and how they translate in the landscape also. And so that was a really great article to write, and that’s what I actually demoed at the plein air convention last year. Was that topic in gouache, doing the sunset and gouache. So I have

Laura Arango Baier: 42:25

a little bit of a side question there, because I’m very curious. I’ve only tried gouache a couple times. Do you find that painting a sunset with gouache versus painting with oils? Which one do you find a little bit more challenging

Ellen Howard: 42:40

you’re doing, if it’s plein air, you’re doing it both quickly. So with the with the oils, you can kind of pre mix a little bit to, you know, and then it you can adjust the color. So probably, I don’t know that’s a hard question, probably the gouache is, but you’re moving fast with gouache anyway. So, yeah, it’s a quicker medium. I mean, you you can adjust, yeah, probably the gouache, because even though it’s quicker, you have to get those colors right initially, you don’t have a lot of time to lay over additional colors, and with the oils, you can get the initial color in, but you can tweak it a little bit to brighten it or to tone it down a little bit more. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 43:27

yeah, that makes sense. I was just curious because you mentioned it, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, in terms of final advice, like career advice. What would you recommend for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Ellen Howard: 43:48

I would just recommend that you take some patience and maybe start slowly. You know, you know, if you’re able financially to quit your job and do it full time, that’s wonderful. But I think sometimes doing a slow approach, where you’re doing something part time, and then transitioning into being an artist, and there’s a Yeah, like, a lot of components to it, so you have to do a lot of research, like, what type of artists are you going to be? Traditional abstract artists, figurative artists, you know, where do you see yourself fitting in the marketplace? Or, do you see yourself fitting in the marketplace? Or how you going to navigate that? Navigate that? Or are you going to open up a different line of you know, there’s a lot of online things too. So try to understand the business components of it. First. You know, where you think your work would be most suitable. Things evolve, and your work probably will change. And you know, over time, but kind of understanding that first, and just having a thick skin, because there’s a lot of subjectivity in art, you know. Somebody loves your work, another person doesn’t like your work. So you have to feel comfortable about what you’re doing and strong in your own person on on how you want your work to look and just having the strength to know you know, you will find your your path. But it might not be the first or second or third path that you look like it might be the fourth or fifth path?

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

Yeah, yeah. Those are all excellent points. And I think also, there’s this risk that a lot of especially like early career artists, fall into, which is, instead of thinking, Oh, where does my work fit, they think, oh, what’s the most popular thing, and how do I fit myself into it? Which I think is a big mistake, because they end up hating it later on. How does, how does someone, you know, sit back and decide, you know what means more to me? Like, what would you recommend if someone’s stuck on that, on that sort of business, first versus my art first mindset.

Ellen Howard: 46:09

Well, I mean, you have to paint what you really love, so that comes first, you know, and you’ll develop your style. So you do need to have a body of work, you know that you feel like, okay, here’s 10 paintings that represent what I want my work to look like, or what I’m drawn to. And then the second phase of it is finding where the market, where you might fit with that market. You know, there is there clubs that would be aligned with you, or is there local or national shows, there’s our art organizations like almost. I mean, the plein air movement has been incredible. So most states have a plein air organization if that’s what they’re interested in, and even if they’re not plein air, even attending them, because maybe somebody in that group would know another group that would fit or another couple artists so and then, you know, also too, you can always, you know, do your own shows. You know you can, you can contact, you know, an exhibition space and see if you can rent that. If you want to do your own shows, there’s a lot of different ways to do it. You can go with other groups of artists and put together your own group show. You can advertise your own group show. So sometimes I would say, don’t always wait to be asked to do something. Take the initiative. If you feel passionate about your work, take the initiative. Find a venue. Find a spot you know, or if it’s strong, with a group show, find three other artists that align with your work and present something so don’t be afraid to try something new.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:52

Yeah, creating your own opportunities in that sense is also, yeah, very, very smart, because you never know who shows up to that show that may not have happened to you if you had never had, like, I said, the initiative to even attempt it. So I feel like it’s kind of interesting, because there’s a little bit there of, like, having almost, like, the gumption to just go for it, you know, like, yeah, the strength is just, you know what? I’m not going to sit here and wait for this opportunity to fall in my lap, I’m going to make it happen, and this is how it’s going to happen. And I think having that mentality also really, really helps.

Ellen Howard: 48:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it’s very helpful, yeah, yeah, but you got to do the work first.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:34

Yes, yeah. I mean, that’s the base of everything, is having paintings for people to look at and for people to admire, and then everything else has to come after that, for sure. And then I wanted to ask you, do you have any upcoming shows, exhibitions, workshops that you would like to promote?

Ellen Howard: 48:55

Yeah, I actually have a gouache workshop coming up in April in Sun Valley, so if you’re interested in that, and then I’ll be at the California gold medal show in June, which I’m excited about. I’m also teaching in France in June, so French Alps, and I’m excited. I’ve got 12 students coming over for that. And and then the fall, I’ll be with the bright Museum, small work, for their Invitational show in Wyoming. So yeah, my daughter’s wedding is coming up in May too, so the spring is a big time for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:31

So that’s so exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. You’re welcome. Yeah, sounds like a great year. And I will, of course, include all of links for everything that you have mentioned. And then if someone wants to see more of your work, where can they see it?

Ellen Howard: 49:47

I’m represented at Carmel fine art in Carmel, and also Holton Studio Gallery in Berkeley, California, and on my website also, so you can always contact me through there.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:59

Carl. Perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alan, for this. Really honestly, I took so many notes. This is this has been a really helpful conversation. I hope our listeners have also been taking fervent notes, because it’s one of those rare opportunities to talk to an artist who is very, you know, business focused as well. So thank you.

Ellen Howard: 50:21

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate it, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:26

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode we sat down with Emma Kalff, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90–95% of her income from her art after years of gradual building, side jobs, and business education. She began in sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her, and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts. Her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered, dreamlike paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically rather than from strict pre-planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large 30x40 inch linen paintings—“who, what, when, where, why”—that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically, and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business: balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities, and not waiting passively to be “discovered.” Throughout the conversation, she is honest about the psychological challenges—discipline, burnout, distraction from social media—while still affirming that this open-ended, uncertain time offers artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and Patreon to stay updated on her work!

Emma’s FASO site:
emmakalff.com/

Sign up for Emma’s Newsletter!
emmakalff.com/page/49408/newsletter-signup

Emma’s Patreon:
patreon.com/cw/EmmaKalff

Emma’s Social Media:
instagram.com/emmakalff/

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Transcript:

Emma Kalff: 0:00

That’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere. And it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, yeah, you’re running a business, and you live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Emma Kalf, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90 to 95% of her income from her art. After years of gradual building site jobs and business education, she began in Sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts, her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered dream like paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically, rather than from strict pre planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large, 30 by 40 inch linen paintings, who, what, when, where and why, that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business, balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities and not passively waiting to be discovered throughout the conversation, Emma is honest about the psychological challenges, discipline, burnout, distraction from social media, while still affirming that this open ended, uncertain time offers Artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and patreon to stay updated on her work. Welcome Emma to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

Emma Kalff: 2:32

I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:36

Yeah, I’m excited to have you because I love your work, I think there’s something so unique about the vibe in your work. The general sort of theme that just permeates through all of them is this very otherworldly, very dreamlike. And I’ve never seen paintings quite like that before, so I’m very excited to pick your brain about how they have come to be. So thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you, yeah, yeah, of course. But before we dive into your beautiful work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Emma Kalff: 3:16

Yeah. So I’m Emma Kulp. I live in southwestern Colorado, in a super tiny rural town of 1000 people, I work largely for myself. I’d say like 90 95% of my income is from art. Took me a while to get there, definitely, like, not an overnight thing by any means. I let’s see, I’m in my early 30s now. I started out, went to college in Boston, at Boston University, studied sociology, and then realized pretty quickly that social work wasn’t really going to work for me, because it’s really emotionally taxing and draining, and I kind of found myself all the time in college. I was just in the Arts Building looking at the paintings, because they had this big hall with all the the painting majors work, and I was always in there looking at everything. And yeah, I graduated, and I bought a one way ticket to New Orleans. Didn’t really have a plan, but ended up modeling, figure modeling in art classes and stuff, and just started to become completely enthralled in the art world. Because every time I modeled, I got, like, a little lesson, and I got to watch everybody draw and learn. And so I got hooked really quickly, and I ended up studying at the Academy of Fine Arts in New Orleans after modeling there under alcipus osals. He actually recently passed. He passed in September. Unfortunately, I. But yeah, I had a really, I was fortunate. I had a really, really good education in the arts, classical education, and very rigorous and after that, I did mostly landscape work, a lot of plein air. And then I started, more recently, layering the figure into my work, and I mostly paint oil on wood panel. And, yeah, that’s what I’m doing now.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:34

Yeah, yeah. I think, Oh, I love that. There’s nothing better than, you know, hearing someone who very much. Like, didn’t realize, like, Oh, this is where I’m going, and just went with the flow, because that’s what it really feels like. Because it goes to show that sometimes, you know, our intuition just tends to work in magical ways, or even just the things we naturally gravitate towards. And hearing that you were a model, I love that, because, of course, I studied at academies, and there was nothing more fun to than, like, talking to the model. And usually they’re always artists. They’re, they tend to be musicians, actors, performers, also very, very artistically oriented. So I think it’s really cool that you were able to, you know, get in there and also like, you know, peek at, like, what people are doing, and, like, listen to the lessons, and then decide, okay, now I’m gonna do this because I’m sure it must have given you also a little bit of an idea of what it was going to be like to study how to paint, right?

Emma Kalff: 6:30

Yeah, that’s a good point, actually, yeah. And it, you know, New Orleans, the depth of the art world is very intense, like, there’s a lot of different pockets that you can sort of vanish into in the art world. And so I got, yeah, I got an inside look behind the scenes in like two lane, but also like private artist studios and like sculptor studios painters, like random little offshoot drawing groups that people tried to start that didn’t go anywhere. And, like, it was just a very broad sort of education in a way that I didn’t even, I don’t think I even realized that at the time. But, yeah, it was very, it was very cool,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:16

yeah, yeah. And also just, I think, the really cool thing that I think you experienced, that not many artists kind of think about, also, is getting that insight about the actual structure of these schools. Because sometimes, you know, someone would be like, Oh, I really want to go study here, but then they don’t really, they can’t really visualize or imagine, like, the actual way that these schools are structured, like when you’re working with the model, and then when you’re working on still life or working on or working on another project, it’s a very it’s kind of rigid, it’s very specific. So knowing that is very helpful, because you know what to expect. Yeah, and do you find that you always wanted to follow the path of the artist? Or was that like, you know, it just kind of emerged as you went on,

Emma Kalff: 8:04

yeah, the more I look back on my life, I’m like, I don’t think I could have done anything else. For one thing, I’m really bad at working for other people. I’m like, I don’t have that personality type. Like, I can’t show up at an office at nine o’clock in the morning dressed in a way that I wouldn’t normally dress, and talking in a way that I wouldn’t normally talk like I I cannot do that, unfortunately, so. But also, yeah, from the time I was really little, I think this is the only thing that I really wanted to do. And my mom used to take us to like I grew up outside of Philadelphia, and she used to take us to the Philly Museum of Art all the time. And I would, I’d have these almost like spiritual experiences in front of the paintings at a really young age, like, I mean, just huge paintings, and I would just stand in front of them, and almost like cry when I was even like, I don’t know, 1012, 13 years old. And, yeah, it’s interesting. I was always really attached to painting, and then sort of falling into the art world, you develop this other relationship to it, where I have a more technical view of it now, and, like, I don’t go to a museum and cry in front of the paintings anymore, which is sort of, it’s a bit of a loss, but it’s also just growing into, I think, being an artist and like building a career out of it, you Just start to stand at a different angle towards it. But yeah, I the more I think about it, the less I think I would have done anything else with my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:51

Yeah, I feel like a lot of artists relate to that, also the I can’t imagine working regular quotations. I. Job because I say the exact same thing. It’s like, I don’t like working for someone else. I don’t like being told what to do, because it there’s something about it just feels like micromanagement. So it’s like, it’s funny. But then at the same time, I think being your own boss can be really tough too, because, like I mentioned to you before, it’s like, I hope, I hope your boss is nice to you. Because I think as artists, we tend to be kind of, kind of rough with ourselves. It’s, it’s a bit of a it’s kind of, it’s a double edged sword, because, of course, we want to reach for excellence, and the way to reach for excellence is by, like, working hard towards it. But I think, you know, it’s also useful to not overdo it, because then, if you’re burnt out from putting yourself into so many roles and trying to do so many things, you end up, you know, struggling, and then you can’t work for like, a month or two or a year, because you’re just so burned out. But yeah, I totally relate to that. And then even also that sort of like loss of innocence, of like, Oh, I know how this is painted. It’s no longer, quote, unquote magical anymore, but at the same time, yeah, and it can feel kind of sad, but then you can still kind of look at the images that inspire you anyway, and still be fascinated by them, maybe not in the same sense, because I totally relate to that too, but you still get that feeling of, huh? I wonder how they did that aspect. I wonder how they painted this little piece, what pigments that they use, because it becomes like this almost dissection of understanding of like composition and storytelling and all these things that add complexity. And you can still look at the image and think, I remember when I used to cry in front of this, but at the same time, though, it’s like, oh, I mean, I won’t, but, I mean, I’ll cry, but it’s because I want to paint like, because it like moves me in the same way anymore, but it’s kind of cool, because that means you feel like it’s reachable to an extent. I feel like when, when we’re, you know, incapable of doing it, it does, you know, have a different feeling. But having that capability, it’s like, Oh, I’m gonna grab it. I’m gonna do it. If anything, it’s like, almost like motivational,

Emma Kalff: 12:18

yeah, that is true. It’s more of like a technical fascination than anything else, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:25

and speaking, actually also of ideas and creation. Where does an idea begin for you for your paintings?

Emma Kalff: 12:36

So, yeah, like I said, I went to this really classical school where it was a very one to one relationship. It was like, there’s a piece of fruit on the table at 2pm like, paint the piece of fruit on the table at 2pm don’t mess it up. You know, fix this. Fix that. It was like a very which was great. It was a very one to one relationship with what you were seeing and what you were painting. And I think that’s super important to develop that as an artist, because you’re actually learning the language. Like my teacher used to say, if you come out of an art school, somebody should be able to put something in front of you, any given object on the planet, and you should be able to paint it. And if they’re not teaching you that, then, like, what have you actually learned? So I’m, I’m super grateful for that. But after I got out of school, I did sort of want to deviate from that, I guess, in my own way, and move into, like, more layered work that wasn’t such a one to one relationship to reality. And I had a teacher in school, Gus Hoffman, and he he was always talking about how he builds a composition as he goes and he doesn’t start with a single idea. He just sort of like, goes, follows it and lets it click into place. And so I started exploring that, basically where something starts for me is usually a photo. I always am taking pictures of everything. I try to take a lot of candid photos of people like this is my sister, just like eating something on the side of the road at one point, and that that background is different landscape that I layered in. But yeah, I really like candid images of people. Also, where I live in Colorado is super beautiful. It’s it looks like the Swiss Alps out here. It’s like this huge mountain range, the San Juans with the snow on it, and like, everywhere you turn, it’s just really beautiful. So it’s a combination of photos and the landscape, because I have such a long history of. Of plein air. I am always driving around with an easel in my car, and I always have a couple, like, I probably have three or four panels in my car right now. I have a bunch of paint and stuff. So, like, I pull over whenever I see something I like, and have some time, I’ll pull over and paint it, and then I’ll take that landscape back into the studio and layer stuff into it. Don’t layer a figure. And then sometimes I’ll take something out, or I’ll change the color palette, or just sort of keep moving like that until it sort of clicks into base. I very rarely start with an idea and then execute it exactly how I’ve drawn it. I have a really hard time that I usually kind of let it unfold, which, you know, is it’s a sort of a double edged sword, because I have paintings that took me, like, three years to complete, because they were they were gone over so many times that you wouldn’t recognize the original image if you saw it to the last image, like the final painting that you see, there’s like three other paintings underneath that. But, yeah, that’s, that’s mostly how I work now.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:22

Sorry, I was muted. Yeah, no, I love that, because that it’s, I feel like, in terms of process, you mentioned a lot of things there that were very important, which is, you know, the over planning type of stuff that, like we artists tend to do, or the approach of, like, trying to organically allow a piece to develop as you work with it. I think those are, like, those two parts of of the coin that are, I guess, like we all experience and experiment with those types of ways of working at some point, because the rigid over planning, like you said, like, it just sometimes it just doesn’t work out the same way. Like, like, you lay everything how you think it’s supposed to go, and then it doesn’t. It just doesn’t, like, maybe the arm isn’t in the right place, like, you imagine it in a different spot, but it just physically can’t do that. But then I really love that idea of just allowing something to develop, or even, like a halfway kind of, like what your instructor mentioned, where it’s like, oh, I start with like, maybe this one thing, and then it just comes together. I think that’s really awesome. And then currently with your work, because you created a really cool series that’s very much based on some sort of work that you did, where you went around and you did, I believe it was, it was like, farming, yeah, yeah. I really love those pieces. And then, because it’s so there’s so there’s something very much, like, tied into memory and like, how you know, it’s really cool because, like, even in the painting showing your background there of your sister, I wouldn’t have thought that she wasn’t in that landscape, which I think is really cool too, because you have that’s one of those really difficult things to do as an artist, is to be able to make your figure feel like they’re in that landscape and not like a sticker, which tends to happen sometimes. So I think you’ve really pulled that off, and especially also in the other paintings I’ve seen of yours with people you’re welcome. What are you trying like? What’s your current question that you are chasing right now in your work? What is What are you trying to figure out in your work right now, whether it’s, you know, process or subject matter?

Emma Kalff: 18:48

Yeah, it’s funny talking about questions, because I’m actually working on a series of 530, by 40 inch paintings that are each painting is a question. So there’s who, what, when, where and why, are the five paintings. And it’s my first time working on linen. Actually, maybe since art school, I sort of moved away from campus, but I’m on linen now, and I actually, I really, really like it, but it’s sort of a metaphor, I guess, for this time that we live in like, I feel very, almost like I’m in this existential crisis where I’m a little paralyzed and I don’t know, like what to do or where to go or how I’m supposed to move anymore, because we’re in this socially and politically, like, highly volatile and very transitory space. It feels like, like we don’t have a cultural moment or landmark almost in history to compare to this, because the influence of technology is so heavy. So it’s kind of like we’re all learning how to walk in a way, like how to figure this out and so kind of just. Asking these like super basic questions, feels like a starting place where I can sort of project my ideas onto and I actually got this book. It’s like the dictionary of archetype and symbol in art history when I started this series, because I thought, you know, like we aren’t connected to in the same way that we are in such a confusing time. It’s it that translates into the art world too, right? Like you used to be able to look at a painting and literally read what the artist was saying. It wasn’t like up for interpretation. It wasn’t it was either like commissioned by the church as a direct commission of a certain religious icon or story, or it was commissioned by a wealthy patron who wanted the specific sort of image of their family or what have you. It was very top down, and it was very direct. And even like you can go back and look at old still lifes, and it’s like, in this book, it’s like each object that you look at has this specific meaning, like a candle, if you put a candle, it was like the symbol for the fleeting nature of life. Or you put a deck of cards, and that was the crazy thing to me. Is a deck of cards used to be the symbol for Vice, which I’m like, if you put a deck of cards in a painting. Now, I think people would like that would totally not connect. That would completely not someone would not be like, Oh, you live a life of vice. Like, you know, it was more be like, Oh, this is kind of a fun touch or something. So I think that’s all really interesting. And I I started to look through this dictionary and sort of incorporate some of the symbols into my paintings, and sort of exploring putting those old symbols that has such a concrete meaning into a contemporary context where that meaning isn’t really there anymore, but you can still use the symbol. And I guess I’m thinking about, I don’t think that we’ll ever go back to a time when there’s such a strict definition, visual definition, to things in painting, but I’m curious where we end up a few decades from now, and like, whether we will sort of loosely reinvent some new symbols of meaning, or if we’ll just keep moving in this, like open ended direction, which the open ended direction is great, like, I’m very grateful to be an artist in A time where you can do what you want. And I think I’m, I’m doing what I’m doing, because I’m living in this time. Like, if I was living even 50 or 100 or 200 years ago, I would be completely different, probably. But yeah, I’m, I’m glad that we live in this open ended time. I just think it’s, it’s like, in such a stark contrast to where it was, and it’s, yeah, it’s interesting to to just compare and like, think about where it was and where it’s going,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:14

yeah, yeah. And I feel like, I, I totally relate to that. There’s nothing more fun than like, coming across like, oh, this. This object over here actually means this. And one of my favorite ones was, like, if a portrait painter painted someone and then they put a fly on them, it was supposed to mean that they were a terrible person, or, like, they had, like, some sketchy thing, because it’s like, huh, I would totally sneak that into a painting if I ever did like a painting of someone I didn’t particularly like or wanted to represent as like a negative figure. So I totally love that. I’m also very much into, like, the symbolism of old paintings. And it is, it is a great pity that we don’t quite have that anymore, in the same way, you know, because time goes on and things change, I feel like the equivalent, maybe for a generation, is memes, where sounds have meaning. Now, where you hear it is like, Oh, that. That’s the sound when someone’s really disappointed that the thing they bought turned out to be bad, or, you know, stuff like that. I feel like that’s maybe, like the newest stuff that’s going around. But it is really wonderful, like you said, to be in a time where you can do anything on a canvas, and it will most likely be appreciated and seen by tons of people because internet, which also brings me to something you mentioned, which is we are definitely in unprecedented times. And I heard a person describe it as we are building an airplane in the sky, and we don’t know if it’s going to work, because that’s the repercussions that it’s had on, like, you know, people’s self esteem, like children, for example, the addictive qualities of Instagram and social media and all these things. These are all fascinating things. And then, of course, AI like, there’s. So much happening in our time that we just we don’t know what to do with it. So I think it is, it is a little bit like how you said, an existential crisis. I also feel the same. I also feel like, oh my god, this tiny black box that I hold every day kind of freaks me out. But also I can read stuff that’s really cool about paintings and look at paintings and these things that I love, it’s almost like a love hate relationship, which really sucks, but I totally relate to that. So I’m really excited to see your paintings, because I bet it’ll be a really cool interpretation of, like, different symbols, and I’m very, very curious now do you when do you think you’ll have these completed? Or do you not have, like, a particular timeline for them?

Emma Kalff: 25:47

Um, my loose timeline right now is dropping them in July. I’m hoping that that will give me I have all the concepts, and most of them are like, 50, 60% of the way there, except for who I’m getting really stumped on who, because I don’t want to hit the nail too hard on the head or, like, make it to like, yeah, too, yeah. Like a person with a mask on or something. So I’m trying to, I’m looking for ways to make that one a little more subtle, but I’m thinking I’ll drop them in July. I’m going to put them out through my newsletter, which I’ll give you the link and yeah, so if you’re interested in that, just sign up at my newsletter and you’ll get first dibs on that. I’m really excited about it, and they’re pretty large scale for me, like I, because I lived on the road and did plein air on the road for about a year. I got really used to doing I did like, I think it was 40 little eight by 10 panels, and because that could just stick them in my car, you know, they were the little, thin little panels. So I’m, I’m very happy to have a studio now and maybe doing some bigger work.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:04

Yeah, yeah, I feel like that’s like, oh, maybe not every artist, but I think most people that I’ve met, we always feel like I want to do big. Want to do big. It’s a challenge. Just more space. There’s more detail that needs to be input, right? Because they’re the smaller paintings, they can be very detailed, right? But the bigger ones, the challenge is making it look good. Because I like, if you’re doing something life size, for example, it can be, you know, really tough to really make it work. And at that point, of course, having a studio space is very, very important. You can’t really do that out of your car, yeah, but, you know, having the space to step back and, like, look at the if you have a model, or look at the image, and then look at painting, make sure that it’s looking, you know, optically, all right, yeah, that’s really exciting. It’s always fun to hear, you know, artists like challenging themselves as well. Like, oh, my next thing is a really cool set of pieces. But then also, like, with a the extra part of, like, challenging your technique with size as well, whether it’s smaller or bigger. I think that’s really one of those things that a lot of us should be pursuing as artists as well. You know that challenge trying to find something more, something new for ourselves with what we already know. And I also wanted to ask you, because you did mention before that you make a good 90 to 95% on your work, which is really awesome for you, what was the turning point that made you believe that you can make a living from your work, and did you have, like, a specific mindset that you have to change in order to get there?

Emma Kalff: 28:49

Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, so I moved out to Colorado in 2020, like, right when covid hit, and I worked for a bit on a farm, and then I was unemployed, and I took this artist Summit, this three day artist Summit, with the professional artist Institute. You know Miguel Mayer, no know that name? Yeah, he runs this. It’s called the professional artist Institute, and I think I got it in my email, and I was kind of just living in this, like, covid borderland of like, these long days that ran together and I had nothing to do. And I thought, Okay, I’m going to take this summit. And I sat on my laptop for three days, and they went over all these really fascinating, like very concrete aspects of the art world, the professional art world that I had never thought about, like I had been selling my painting for bucks, you know, on the road, or 60 bucks or whatever. Like, I wasn’t doing that with the aim of, like supporting myself completely. It was just sort of a side. Hustle, and yeah, so I took that, and then I got kind of hooked, and I signed up for like online. You can get this package of online courses through the Professional Arts Institute. So it really was just like hitting the right resource at the right time, and I still worked on the side for three, four years after that, before I, like, went full time. But, yeah, I really, I really don’t have a business skill set naturally. Like, I think every artist is gifted in a certain area. You know, like you have the you have the technical side of like, your competence in making the sort of art that you want to make, and then you have the business side. And like both sides have a ton of individual skills that you have to learn. And it does. It will do it like serves you well to identify, like, where your strengths are. And then the good thing is, you can always learn and make up for what you don’t inherently have, because we live in the internet age, like the internet sucks, but it has helped me tremendously to like, be able to take classes and learn from people. I’m always in a class, like, right now I’m in Lennon bone. He runs stop the starving artist, and that’s all about, like, learning how to sell online, because I’ve always had, like, very local clients, and I want to, like, learn how to sell on the internet now. So yeah, it was really just getting lucky and finding that resource and being like, Oh, this is actually I don’t have to float in this nebulous cloud of of waiting to be discovered or hoping that someone’s going to bump into me on the street and take a big interest in my work and become a patron. Like, I feel like that’s sort of the cloud that I was floating in before I started taking classes. And I think that’s, that’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way, and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere, and it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, it’s, it’s a business, like you’re running, you know, yeah, you’re running a business. And we live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:48

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah. And I think that’s also part of that starving artist myth is the something’s gonna land on your lap, and that’s not, that’s not how it works, unless you’re, you know, already incredibly wealthy and don’t have to worry about your bills, and maybe your wealthy parents have good connections, right? Because that’s oftentimes what happens in certain parts of the art world. No hate to them. I mean, it must be really fortunate to be in that situation. But for for. The 80% of us who are not in that situation, maybe even 90, 99% of us who are not in that situation, we have to find other ways, right? Like, how you’re saying, like, find resources online. Those seem really great. Actually jotted them down, yeah and yeah, just that’s part of it as well. You know, being proactive in it, because it is, yeah, like, the idea of, like, the Bohemian artist who just, like, lives in poverty, and like, you know, this very like Oscar Wilde type of, like, it’s like, you can, you can do that too, if you want. But for those of us who want to have food on the table and maybe, hopefully a mortgage someday, can’t, can’t really do that. Can’t have the bohemian life. So yeah, that’s awesome. And then, since you do primarily live from your work, what are, what are some ways that you’ve been balancing your economy as an artist, and how has that experience been for you?

Emma Kalff: 36:00

What does that phrase mean, balancing your economy.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:02

So, like, you know, like, the, for example, if you want to, like, if you know how much your your rent is, right? Like, do you know? Like, Oh, I gotta sell X paintings, or I gotta do this. Or, like, how have you been managing that aspect of living from your work?

Emma Kalff: 36:19

Yeah, that’s fair. Um, I’m fortunate. I live in a rent controlled space, so my rents not very high. I I would be really struggling if my rent was like $2,000 or whatever most people are paying. But yeah, it’s a mix of commission work, like in a given year, sometimes I’ll have a lot of commissions back to back. Sometimes I won’t also something that helps balance it is to have a wide range of prices. So, like, my original work varies from like 600 to like this one is, like, the biggest one I’ve done, and it’s 13 grand. So there’s a very wide array of price points that people can pick, and then I’ll do like, print releases too. So it’s just figuring out, like, who your buyer is and what they may or may not be able to shell out. And also I usually, if I’m doing a commission like, I’ll let people pay in parts. So sometimes I’ll have a commission that pays out over, like, six months or a year, and it might not be a huge sum, like every month, but it’s still adding into the pot. And then I do classes. I do, like individual, one on one plein air workshops. And what else do I do? I have Patreon where I put, like, a little easy, like simple beginner painter lesson every two weeks. And so with all of those things combined, it’ll shake out every month that I’ve got enough. But I think the important thing is, like having, having a bunch of irons in the fire is really, has helped me, and it’s also like psychologically easier. I think if you have like, 10 Things going it’s kind of scattered brain. But it’s also like, if one thing fails, you’re not you’re not completely bottoming out and being like, oh my god, I can’t do this. It’s like, okay, I’m just gonna throw one more thing on the fire. If it doesn’t work out, it’s fine. But like, that way you always have sort of a rotating group of things that you’re that you can possibly be making money from. And yeah, it helps to balance your like expectations and not be so like having to succeed in any one area, and like, certain things can ebb and flow. Like, if you don’t have, like, I haven’t had a, I have a commission right now, but last year was pretty slow, you know. So then it’s like, the other things can start to take up. And, yeah, it just sort of like, goes in a rotation,

Laura Arango Baier: 39:18

yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s another really great point, you know, you can’t, like, every especially, you know, when you’re working for yourself, and it’s just more organic. In that sense, there are going to be, you know, times of like, Oh, I’m making a good amount, and times of like, oh, okay, I’m not making as much. But you know, if you’re smart, right, and you live below your means and you’re saving money, you won’t be too afraid of, like, Oh no, I’m not selling enough this month. Like, how you said it’s good to have, like, not all your eggs in one basket, because you drop that basket and you’re kind of kind of screwed. So it’s good to have that. Yeah, that’s a really great point. And of course, it does help to have to live in a place that is not killing your. Bank account. Because I think right now that’s also one of the big, big problems that a lot of artists are facing right now. But you know, at least the internet is a wonderful source as well for okay, I can literally live on an island somewhere and still be able to as long as it has a like a UPS or a FedEx or DHL, I can survive, you know, yeah, but yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, too, what so far has been the greatest challenge you have faced in your career as an artist? I

Emma Kalff: 40:43

I think it’s like, staying disciplined in the studio and like, artists are notorious for, like, we only want to work when we’re super inspired, and then when we’re not, it’s like, oh, I don’t want to do this. Like, and I’m, I’m certainly no exception to that. So I definitely have times where I’m just, like, really burned out. I don’t want to go in the studio, I don’t want to paint. I don’t have any exciting ideas going on and having the discipline and, like, making yourself show up is really hard. And sort of in the same vein, it’s been really hard to like all these little incalculable things, right? Like, how long is my work day supposed to be? How quantitatively, how many paintings am I supposed to produce in a month or a year? How many are supposed to go to a gallery? How many am I supposed to like hang on to for myself? How many should be? You know, it’s like when you when you work for someone else, all of those things are sort of taken out of the equation. And it’s a it is an easier life in a lot of respects, because you work a set amount of hours, and then you know exactly what you’re going to be paid and when you’re going to be paid. And to navigate the art world on your own is hard, because you can put in 10 hours of work on a painting and not be paid for that 10 hours for 10 years, right? Like a painting can sell 10 years later, or it can sell next week. And so navigating that alone can be, it can be really tough. And also, like, I think we live in this, well, America, where I am is like, very it’s, it’s super workaholic culture, and then it’s like, you know, you have to balance like, Okay, how much do I want to do and how much of a Break do I want to give myself? And like, yeah. So I think the hardest part has been answering all of those like little questions about, How is this supposed to go? How do I structure my work day, and how do I keep myself, like, disciplined, to where I continue to do it and I don’t burn myself out, but I still produce a set amount of work. Like, that’s all been pretty difficult.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:27

Yeah, I think that’s no matter what I mean, no matter what type of self employment you’re in. I think that’s like, the key, key, key thing is, you know, no, there’s no one to tell you what to do. Like you said, there’s no convenient like, oh, just show up at the office. They tell me what I’m supposed to get done, and then I go home right which, my opinion, that’s a little bit like putting all your eggs in one basket anyway, because it’s, you know, that company goes under, you’re kind of screwed. But, yeah, I think that’s, I totally agree with that challenge, because I also feel that because, I mean, when you’re in a place where, like, you can literally do anything in your time, right? And you have a whole day where you can choose, it becomes very challenging. Because, of course, we have these distracting little beep boop boxes that we have in our pockets that love to be a time suck. But then also I relate that to that too. You know that difficult, like, Man, I’m not inspired today, or like, kind of tired, or like, I just am not feeling it. But you know, still having to show up, I think that’s probably a hurdle we will always face forever as artists. Because unless you know, someone’s really on a roll, and they can keep that role going their entire career, that’s awesome. I doubt that that’s humanly possible. I think most of us, we we have to take vacations too, or, like, actually, Kim across. Asked an article recently by from a study that was done on creativity and how being bored and like, taking time away from like, if you just finished like, a bunch of projects, like, taking some time away from them, and like, let your brain kind of settle down and refresh it really, really helps with coming up with even more ideas like, so there’s, like you said, I think we have since we do live in in a culture, at least in North America, and I would say in some parts in Europe, as well, of productivity, first, productivity first. Like creating working, working, working. It burns you out precisely because there’s no real space to pause. Like, I’m sure many of people listening have also experienced like, you have a break and you immediately fill that break with something to do that has to get done, which, unfortunately, we do also exist in that world where, like, oh, I finished my job. Now I can finally clean my dishes or do my laundry. But there is, you know, some aspect of, like, giving yourself, like, time to just read a book, or, like, sit down in the silence and not listen to anything that also really helps.

Emma Kalff: 46:11

Yeah, I really miss being bored like I, I really miss being like a teenager and these like I, when I was in high school, the summer, days were just eternal, and it was like, oh my god, I could, like, rip my eyes out of my head, but that’s so important, you know, like, and it’s, it’s really a Herculean effort now to make yourself be bored, like, to actively be Like, I’m not going to sit on the phone and I’m going to sit on my couch and, like, stare at the wall until I’m, like, really exhausted from that. I, yeah, I’ve been thinking about just getting a flip phone and, like, leaving my my smartphone in the studio, just as, like, a this is a work thing. Like, I’m going to build for Instagram or whatever, and take pictures for that, but like, sort of walking it away to not have it constantly accessible. I’ve been toying with that, but, yeah, that’s another thing that’s it’s really hard, because now that that eye, like the eye of the camera, is in the studio. It lives in the studio. If you’re, like, that sort of painter, I know not everybody is. But like, I make a lot of videos, and I think a lot of people do, and it’s like, when you when you bring that in, it takes a lot of effort to only film and, like, not let it distract you from working. And that’s it’s really it’s really hard, and at the same time, it’s super cool that you know you can build your this is like the first time in the history of humanity that you can build your own personalized audience that is literally made up of people who specifically want to see what you’re doing. And with the touch of a button, you can say whatever you want to them at any second of any day, like that. Is really cool. It’s really cool. And I think it’s like, a very important tool, but, yeah, like learning how to balance, it is

Laura Arango Baier: 48:15

it’s very difficult. Yeah, yeah. I relate. I relate to that, especially what you just said about, you know, having a camera in the studio, because it does, in some ways, it shifts the energy of the room, because now it’s like, oh man, did I position the camera correctly? Did it like, the is it in the right spot? Or, Oh no, it’s out of focus, or, Oh no, my camera died and I didn’t notice. There’s so many little extra distractions that end up happening. It’s almost better to just have like a surveillance camera or something like, oh, like, because it just, it’s a it’s so distracting to like, Okay, I’m recording on my phone. Oh no. My phone ran out of like, memory. Oh, no, I gotta get, like, a, gosh, like a cloud service or something like, it’s, it’s so much extra stuff, you know, like the whole content creation hamster wheel, as I’m beginning to call it these days. It just feels like it can sometimes be a double edged sword, much like what we’ve discussed, because one, it’s awesome. You can connect with people who can observe, you know what you’re doing and learn from it, or feel inspired by it. Because there’s so many of us out there who do you know go on the internet specifically to connect with other people and be inspired by other people’s projects or other people’s ideas. But then if it starts taking over too much, then it feels like an obligation, and it almost feels like, oh, I want to go into the studio, but I have to record this, but I don’t really want to deal with the tripod and the camera placement, and then, oh no, I bumped into it. Because it was so close to me when I was painting this one part, and now I gotta re record, but then I already painted that, like, it’s just, oh, it is so frustrating. Like there’s like, it just feels like there’s no way. Although I did think of getting, like, those, you know, those really evil metal glasses that have the camera on them. I thought about getting just because I’m not gonna record other people out there. It’s just so convenient for painting. Yeah, it’s like, oh, boop. Now they’re on well,

Emma Kalff: 50:28

because then you film something from the side, but then it’s filmed on this weird like, I like, often will film something and then I look at it after I’ve recorded it, and I’m like, it’s so skewed, it doesn’t even make sense to post this. So then you have to, like, get your camera right here, and then you’re literally, like, painting like it’s crazy, awful.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:48

Yeah, I’ve seen in the early days, I think I saw I was, maybe it was Michael Klein. He did a video tutorial, but he had a GoPro, and it was okay. But I feel like his later videos are, of course, much, much better. The GoPro was a little bit like it just wouldn’t focus completely, or like it would move around a little too like, too much. But I feel like, yeah, that’s, you see, that’s like, one of those unique things that even when GoPros were much, much, much more popular, we were still trying to figure out how to record ourselves for people. So I yeah, hopefully we can find a good solution. Maybe we can all use those met a glasses and make people stop using them to record people who don’t want to be recorded. It’s like, oh, you should market this for artists who are trying to record themselves or stream. But, yeah, yeah. And then also, speaking of marketing, since you said, you know, you mentioned, you have quite a few things going at the same time. Do you find that there’s like, one thing that is one marketing thing, or one like, avenue of sales, almost like, you know, sales funnel, or any sort of like, of these irons that you keep that actually has been the most helpful for your career.

Emma Kalff: 52:08

I think it’s just good old fashioned, like talking to people. I read this thing a few years ago that was like getting out there and socializing and like going to our openings, or like going to the bar, and like talking about your work is not less important than like being in the studio. Like being in the studio, painting is not more important than that. If that’s what you’re trying to do is like, have a career. And I thought that that was really interesting. And I’ve started to like, it’s hard, right? It’s hard to, like talk about your art, because it feels sort of like you’re, like, showing off, or you’re tooting your own horn. Or, you know, it can feel very like self important. At least, I struggled with that, and like I used to when I lived in New Orleans, I had this license where you can sell in the French Quarter. There’s like, this huge raw iron fence around the St Louis Cathedral in the French Quarter, and you can get a license, and then 365, days a year, 24/7, you have this spot that you can set up on the fence and, like, hang your your paintings. And I did that, but I was really bad at it, because I couldn’t talk to people. Like I would just sit there and I would watch people, hundreds of people, it’s the French Quarter, hundreds of people come by every day. And I would watch people, and they would stop and look at my stuff, and then they would keep going. And it took me a long time to be like, Oh, it’s because I’m not talking to them. I didn’t think that, like, I was the sort of catalyst. I felt that the art would sort of like, do its own thing. But over I think I did that for like, two years, and over that time, I started realizing that people that talk and, like, put their stuff out there in a in a nice way for people and like, have a little chat. Those are the ones that are that are selling. And I, I do. I live in a really tiny town, I think I said population of 1000 but there are a lot of people here that love art, and there’s a lot of people with disposable income, there’s a lot of retired people, and so I think, like one of the big mistakes that I’ve made living out here is to underestimate that local the potential that local people might be interested in my work. Like, I think I was in this mindset of, oh, I have to get to New York, or I have to get in these galleries in LA or at least Denver or Santa Fe, I have to get into these urban places. But often, like, You’re the biggest proponent. Like. You’re the biggest sort of factor that that will help people connect, if that makes sense, and just sort of not caring about, like, looking stupid, and just talking about it until it feels natural, it did take a while, like, to figure out what I wanted to say and how to, how to, yeah, but I think just like, staying open and, you know, if someone is, like, expressing an interest in my work, I’ll be like, Oh, why don’t you come by the studio and, like, it doesn’t. It’s not to be like, Oh, do you want to buy this painting. It’s like, No, we’re gonna sit and like, I’ll make us some coffee and we’ll have a chat, and then maybe in a year, you’ll buy something, and maybe you won’t. And like, that’s fine, but like, we’ve had that chat. And, you know, you don’t even have to have, like, a studio. You can just sort of have people over in your living room and be like, these are my three paintings that I have, or whatever. Like, I think that that it doesn’t have to be this huge thing of, like, becoming this big artist in New York or whatever. Like, I think the times are changing, and you can really do it from wherever and like, just work with what you have.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:18

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you’re really emphasizing the local community aspect, because I’ve interviewed very many artists, and a good amount of them have focused first on local communities. And of course, I mean, I feel like it’s like, you become the community artist, right? Like You’re like the well known person in town, and people tend to really love that. You know, it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s our local artist. She does this, or he does that. And I’ve also, I lived on a tiny island of 1000 something. Maybe it was 2000 people tops, and they had, like, two local artists who were very, very beloved, and like, we’re sold so much whenever, like, tourists would come by. So it goes to show, you, know, really being part of some a small community, I think, is so much. It can be so much more fruitful than like New York City, because it’s easy to get lost in New York City, amongst other artists and amongst other people who are also just building, like, very surface level relationships, instead of, you know, becoming involved with community and becoming involved with like, Oh, hey, stop by my studio. Let’s hang out. Let’s have a coffee, right? That’s very different from like, Here’s my card. I hope you like my work, and then maybe that person just throws it out. Because, you know, I when I lived in New York City, that was very much the feeling you get there. Everyone’s really, really trying to make things work and get noticed by Gallery, and get like, 20 million rejections. But that’s, of course, part of it. But then, yeah, nurturing the local stuff is, is very fulfilling and underrated, also, because, you know, it is usually a lot less expensive to live in a smaller community than it is in New York City where, like, the rent, I think, has reached like $5,000 a month. Yeah, I think, but I think that’s for like a multiple bedroom household. Maybe, like a two bedroom. It’s insane. Yeah, hopefully it goes down when I was there. Was definitely not that. But, yeah, it’s definitely a much, much easier in a smaller community. And if you find a place kind of like how, you know, you find a nice place that you resonate with as well. You don’t just move to middle of nowhere, anywhere. I think it’s nice if it’s a place you actually do feel attracted to to some extent. Like you mentioned, you know, your surroundings are very beautiful, and that’s one of the important things that you’re in a place that you feel inspired by as well.

Emma Kalff: 58:54

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think. And it’s also like, I think galleries are really important structurally to the art world. And there’s a lot of, like, really awesome galleries that that sell work for artists and, like, help their career. But I think it’s also like, I used to think, Oh, if I just got in, like, if I just got in, like, my dream gallery, then I would be set. But it’s like, you know, you can get in the coolest, most badass gallery with the best reputation that has a ton of traffic in, like, New York or Chicago or something, and they maybe just don’t have chemistry with your work, and I can’t sell it. And it’s like, there’s something to be said for that too, where it’s like, I don’t know that goes back to having irons in the fire and being like, Okay, if this doesn’t work out, I’ll have something else. But I think the search for a gallery can be really long and difficult and like, yeah, just because it’s a gallery that you will idle. Eyes that carries a lot of artists that you admire doesn’t mean that they’re going to be able to work with you and sell your sell your stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:09

Yeah, yeah, that’s a I think that’s very important reality Chuck, because sometimes it’s even local galleries who like, do like much more to like, sell an artist work, because in the end, it isn’t even, like, the notoriety of the gallery. Or, like you said, like, Oh, my dream gallery, because they have my heroes in it. Like, yeah. But like, you know, sometimes it’s those big galleries that might not have enough, like, room in their roster to add another person. Or, like you said, they don’t resonate, or they can be your heroes, but what if your style is entirely different and just doesn’t fit in with a gallery as well. Like, there are so also, so many factors. So I think, yeah, that’s a very honest reality check right there. And I think that that also goes to show that it’s not surprising to be, like, rejected by galleries time and time again for that reason, because like, Oh, we don’t have space. Your work doesn’t resonate. Sometimes it’s even just a question of, like, Oh, you’re too early in your career, or your price range isn’t in our price range. Like, oftentimes it’s like, no, we’re more expensive than that, and we don’t want to carry someone I I’ve heard that that doesn’t have that range yet, right? So there’s, like, a lot that goes in there. And also, you know, the galleries take a risk when they take on an artist, because, especially when it’s an early career artist, like, well, we don’t know if you sold anything yet, or, you know, all these things, because it is dealing with another business. And, I mean, there are a lot of caveats also as well that go with galleries. Like, Okay, what if, like, five years down the line, I decide to switch things up, and I’m no longer really painting the same thing that they decided to take me on for what then, right? That’s like the conversation that then has to begin with the gallery of whether or not you’ll continue with them, they’ll give you the opportunity to try out this new avenue, which is very natural for a lot of artists to, you know, pursue something else, or do you keep painting these things for this one gallery, but maybe pursue a different one for this other subject matter? I mean, there’s a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah. Oh man. But then I also wanted to ask you, do you have any advice for someone out there who’s listening, who wants to become a full time artist?

Emma Kalff: 1:02:29

Yeah, my advice would be to, I think if you spend an hour on your craft, like whatever art that you’re making, spend an hour on the business side. So if you spend a day in the studio, spend the next day, you know, marketing and on your computer and, like, researching that sort of stuff like that has really helped me to make a balance of it, because I think it’s really easy to get sucked into one side or the other, of like, oh, I have to market myself super hard, and then you’re not painting, or you’re not, you know, in the studio, or it can go the other way too, where you’re like, Oh, I just like, don’t want to email Today, and I’m just gonna, but it’s really helped me to have that, like, sort of one to one balance. And I think over time, if you, if you really stick to that, like, it’s almost like a mathematical certainty that you will get somewhere. And like, you diversify your your avenues, and you just keep on chipping away on it, you’ll get somewhere.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:48

Absolutely, yeah, little by little. It’s a little by little stuff. But I love that you emphasize you know that balancing both aspects, because it really is, I mean, very difficult to make it anywhere as an artist, if all you have is paintings and you don’t have the wherewithal to know how to do something with them, it can be a challenge. So yeah, having that balance and even the other way around, some people are, like, heavy on the business, but then not enough on the like, figuring out what they’re even painting side. So it’s very good, very great advice. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?

Emma Kalff: 1:04:29

Yeah, just my newsletter. If you want. I can give you the link to my Patreon. Oh, that’s helpful, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, I try to keep it super affordable, and it’s just, you know, two, two, like, really quick, easy lessons a month that’ll help you with your basic skills as a painter. And, yeah, that show that I have coming up, I’ll give you the link to my newsletter so people can check that out.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:59

Awesome. Perfect. And then where can people see more of your work?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:04

So I’m on Instagram a lot. My handle is Emma, call, K, a, l, F, F, and yeah, I’m represented by a band gallery in Denver, and I also work with milk Moon gallery in Telluride and 33 contemporary in Florida. So those are kind of my three that I’m where I have work.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:32

Yeah, cool. And then, what is your website?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:36

My website is just my name. It’s Emma cough.com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:40

yeah, awesome, yeah. Well, likewise, yes, and I will add all of your links also. Yeah, cool, sweet. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much, Emma for the conversation. I definitely have a lot of food for thought, as I usually do with my interviews, but this I like the energy was very sobering but also very hopeful. So I appreciate that.

Emma Kalff: 1:06:07

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:15

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcasts Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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To end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter, and sculptor living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary-focused art school to then find classical, atelier-based training in Florence. Matthew explains how Old Masters like Titian, Van Dyck, Rembrandt, and Velázquez shaped his devotion to painting from life, Baroque optical effects, and the idea of following their principles—especially observation of nature—rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should “go cold turkey” from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls “art zoos” (museums stripped of original context). Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture—sight-size work from life, historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting, and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character—as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time. Underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes: the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong “Odyssey”, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today, and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces.

Matthew’s FASO site:
matthewjamescollins.com/

Matthew’s Social Media:
instagram.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/
facebook.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/

Matthew’s Articles:
Historical Approaches for Contemporary Portrait Practice
Dancing Faun of Pompeii: Removed From Habitat, Out of Context

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Transcript:

Matthew James Collins: 0:00

This idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then, as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate metaphor of the artist is we’re found in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:28

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights to end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter and sculptor, living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary, focused art school to then find classical Atelier based training in Florence. Matthew explains how old masters like Titian Van Dyck, Rembrandt and Velasquez shaped his devotion to painting, from life Baroque optical effects and the idea of following their principles, especially observation of nature, rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should go cold turkey from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls art zoos, which are museums stripped of original context. Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture side size work from life historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character, as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes, the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong Odyssey, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces. Welcome Matthew to the FASO podcast. How are you today? Hello.

Matthew James Collins: 2:29

No, I’m doing well. Thank you, Laura. Thank you for having me here. And it’s I’m doing well. It’s a sunny day in Florence, so it’s always nice. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Oh, I’m so excited to have you too, because, of course, I also studied in Florence, and it is such a beautiful city, and your work is gorgeous. I adore the poeticism of your sculptures, your portraits, and I love when someone is also trying to maintain this beautiful classical skill that we, you know, the torch that we are trying to maintain as artists, which is, you know the lessons that we’ve learned from our predecessors, you know the old masters, everyone in between who is trying to keep this art alive. So I appreciate that very much.

Matthew James Collins: 3:16

No thank you. And that’s why, when a fellow artist gives you a compliment like that, tell you to not be happy, because that’s we. We paint. Probably we make work, works of art for everybody. But if other artists appreciate that’s a little bit something special in it, in pew, they say in Italian.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:30

Additionally, yes, yeah, totally. And also because, I mean, sometimes it feels like, I don’t know if maybe you relate to this, but sometimes we make our work, whether it’s a sculpture, sculpture or painting, and sometimes we’re like, oh, this is, you know, I really love this. But then when other people see it as well, it feels much more like, ah, validation for all this hard work that I’ve been putting into this craft, and that also is very fulfilling. No, definitely,

Matthew James Collins: 3:59

and we don’t, maybe don’t get that validation as much as we’d like. So people, you spend months working on a work of art, and they go, that’s nice. And you’re like, Oh no, but Oh, that’s nice. The best work of art grows on people with time. I think,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:14

yes, yeah, I agree. And it’s it. I think also, like some works of art are just, they have a bit of, like a more of like a softer voice. They don’t have to, you know, be impactful in your face. Sometimes it could be more of, like a calm, quiet sort of contemplation that I think a lot of people hopefully are leaning more towards today because of the crazy revolution of the internet that’s been happening. So I think there’s going to be more appreciation for your type of work as well. Oh, well, I

Matthew James Collins: 4:49

hope so. Thanks. That’s I even see it in Italy. It’s a even in a culture surrounded by beautiful things, they tend to not be as sensitive to the figurative arts as we would like. That’s the so I do most of my work outside of Italy. In fact, they do in France or Spain or the states.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:07

So yeah, that’s the complexity of the markets as well. Not all markets are receptive to specific types of art. I mean, some countries are definitely much more inclined to prefer abstract other places might prefer, especially like western United States level, Western art, which is more towards realism, plein air is loved, I think almost everywhere, yeah, but yeah. So I think it’s awesome that you’re maintaining this craft alive as well. Yes. And then, before we dive into more, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Matthew James Collins: 5:46

Sure. Well, I’m from a town near Chicago, Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago. Grew up there, and obviously my well, not obviously, my parents are artists too. My father’s an architect, my mother’s a writer. And so at Oak Park is very kind of cultural suburb of Chicago as well, too. And so kind of grew up in a creative environment. And so I’ve always went to the museums. We go to Chicago Art Institute all the time. And that was kind of my place where I was introduced to art in first hand as well, too, which I think is really important as well. And that’s where many people don’t have the option to see art. We see art through images on phones and computer screens now, but it’s not the same as seeing works of art in person as well, too. And so and then. But as we all know, this, art isn’t really in let’s say that puritanical culture the practical nature of American culture, it’s about making a living, and so art isn’t seen as very serious way of making a living. So it’s seen as a luxury instead of a necessity. And so obviously, how I became went and started studying art and then didn’t find the right teachers, and obviously, eventually went to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago after high school, and then got a degree in art history. Because when I was there at the school art institute Chicago, which is a wonderful school, they definitely contemporary, let’s say University educations have a certain kind of now, less so than 3040, years ago, in slant towards a certain ideology of art and what its art should be, and it didn’t quite match with my connection of what I thought art should be, which was what I saw in the museum. So it was contemporary, conceptual and other things as well, too. And it those kind of works didn’t quite speak to me the way I when I went to the Art Institute, and I would see everything from El Greco to Sargent to Rembrandt and those kind of just the way these materials were transformed. In oil and in marble, there’s hearing powers, and then there’s Rodin. There’s other sculptures as well too, which kind of inspired me a lot as well. So those kind of a we’re kind of drawn to those things for their beauty. And then obviously I wanted to try to kind of find out how to make those things as well too. And so that’s where I started working and studying. And then eventually found everyone, we all find our own special way to build our skills as well too, and do other things as well, and following your kind of dreams as well. So I kind of dropped out of the School of the Art Institute in that sense. And then I got a degree in art history so I could learn more about these things that inspired me, these objects, paintings and sculptures and buildings. My father being an architect as well, too. And then started my studies on my own with different painters and sculptors as well. So eventually coming to Florence. So I came to Florence in 1994 and that was before the internet. That’s when you just, I just heard word of mouth studying with the paintress in Chicago, and she suggests, well, you already studied. I taught you all I could. So why don’t you go to Florence and study and so, and then I wrote a couple letters, and then I got a couple responses, and they just had, you know, brochures, which they don’t even have brochures anymore, they send in the mail. And then you just kind of got those, like, made a phone call, and then ended up going to the Cecil atelier in Florence so and I studied there for a couple years painting. So that was a wonderful experience where I learned a lot. Is this idea of painting from life, and this idea of building skills through repetition and building your eye based on 19th century French Atelier system as well, too. So, but Florence, back then was a little bit it’s now this. These schools have grown, and they’ve become very much larger and much more, they say, institutionalized. But back then it was, was a couple artists, and there was Charles Cecil and Daniel graves that were just teaching young artists what they knew. Then there’s Richard Saren as well. And then there’s John Angel. So it was a very kind of an interesting and wonderful environment back then, and it was cheaper, so it was easier to live so but so no, it was a wonderful way to learn, especially in a city full of art. So we know Florence. Is Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci the Renaissance and this kind of rebirth in, let’s say, figurative art that happened in the late 1300s 1400 and that’s where it was kind of a re living that kind of experience in the 90s in Florence as well, too. So it was kind of a wonderful experience. So Oh

Laura Arango Baier: 10:21

yeah, that sounds awesome. I mean, I definitely miss that aspect of Florence, the fact that, you know, you walk down one block and you’ll see beautiful buildings, a sculpture in the corner, just this attention to detail throughout the city that just it’s very magical. I think it’s one of those places that, if anyone has that, if anyone has the luck and privilege to be able to go study there, it’s, you know, one of the best places to really immerse yourself in art and in culture, at least in the medieval or Renaissance, also culture, because that’s Florence, in a nutshell. But yeah. And I love also that you mentioned how things have evolved over the years. Because I’ve also heard many artists who studied, you know, in colleges before the 90s, that they did experience this like, oh, well, I want to learn how to actually, you know, draw or paint, kind of like the old masters, but the emphasis wasn’t quite there at that time. It was much more the contemporary of anything. I have heard a lot of artists say that their teachers would say, oh, realism is dead, which a lot of people thought that at the time. So it’s a little bit unfortunate, but it’s wonderful that you know people like Cecil and you know, the schools that have happened in Florence have been so focused on trying to revive this, well, French academic style of, yeah,

Matthew James Collins: 11:53

and it was then, I guess back then, it wasn’t even even successful, wasn’t it was not as French academic that was The kind of the structure, because of this idea of an atelier, where you’d have a group of students working, and then the head teacher would come by a couple days a week, and then you’d have assistant teachers teaching as well too. So it was kind of learning by doing and so and then obviously, not obviously, of course. But then it was this idea of obviously, that was a system that kind of came from the French Academy, a French the French Atelier system, not the academy in France. So it would be private painters studios in Paris, like Carlos Duran who taught Sargent, they’d have their own Bona had their own painting studios. So it’s definitely more intimate than, let’s say, an academy, and that’s where the teacher could transmit certain ideology, not just ideology, share visions of what art could be. And so it was more, instead of French academic masters, is more ideas of when I was there in the 90s, was more Velasquez, Van Dyke, Rubens Titian. So it was this idea of looking towards the art, of looking at the art around us, and trying to incorporate that into our practice too. And then even Sargent, when I was studying their 90s, their sergeant was always important, but wasn’t really the main focus. Let’s say that’s because I was, I’m inspired by Baroque painting so and when I see I think broke painting is maybe one of the highest points of, let’s say, where the eye and the hand and then the individual expression of the artist kind of came through. So that’s where the broke air for me, is one of the best. So because you can’t have this, because you have the Rembrandt, you have a Velasquez, Van Dyke, Guido Reni, all at the same time, same color, same brushes, same everything. And look at such a wide variety of expression too. We’re in the 19th century. It all came closer together. So I mean, if you look at Rembrandt and you look at Van Dyke, you can’t see two way, grossly different ways of approaching painting, but they’re still wonderfully beautiful in their personal expression. And that’s kind of what we all become artists to express ourselves and find our own personal voice. And so that’s where that’s why the bro kind of really attracted me was this variety of expression,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:04

yes, yes. I totally agree with that. And I think probably in part, why the 19th century and then onward, I would say even, yeah, yeah, 19th century. I feel like one of the biggest shifts, of course, was, you know, the camera happening. Because, you know, like, as we know, Bouguereau did use photographs for his paintings as well. And Bouguereau, of course, came he was much more important in the when I was studying in Italy, he was one of the big names going around. Everyone’s talking about Bouguereau, everyone’s talking about Sargent. By that point, I think Sargent was one of the big ones. But I feel very much like you I, you know, my heroes are definitely, you know, like Titian and Van Dyke. Like Van Dyke especially, who was my first love. Like I saw his work when I took art history, and I was like, Oh, this is incredible. His portrait that he painted when he was 13 years old. How sure. Okay, it’s amazing, but yeah. And actually, what you just mentioned also leads me to a quote that you mentioned in your article on realism today, which I will link also in the show notes for some of our readers or for some people who want to go check it out, I totally recommend it. And the quote is, instead of treat, instead of treading in the Old Masters footsteps, Endeavor only to keep the same road. Do you mind telling us

Matthew James Collins: 15:28

some more? That was from, I think that’s from Reynolds. Joshua, Reynolds, and he’s what they he was the wonderful portrait painter, and he was obviously profoundly inspired by Van Dyke. Van Dyke was his. I think first love is all portrait painters. They should be the first love is Van Dyck. But he and his lectures, his discourses on art, which were lectures towards to his students at the Royal Academy. And he was, in some ways, just echoing what Leonardo said, too. So this is where he was saying, we look to the old masters because they inspire us, but the old masters look towards nature and so, and that’s where art, in many periods of art history, art comes from art and then. But art is very derivative. It just comes from art. So just copying art doesn’t create, let’s say, interesting and profound art as well, too. That’s where he goes, That’s so he said, we should follow the principles that they did by looking at nature and then apply them. Employ the language, which is the visual language of art, in a personal way too, but that’s also being well versed in the Old Masters too. This is where the idea of making the grand tour to see paintings in person, which is that’s where everyone who comes to Florence can has the opportunity to do that. And even Reynolds came to Italy to study wonderful examples of Titian. Because obviously Van Dyke, even Van Dyke, came to Italy to study Titian. So Titian is the godfather of, let’s say, portrait painting and oil painting. He kind of made it all. He was the first he did, the first full length portrait. He did portraits life size. He did lots of things that we all kind of take for granted, but he kind of worked those problems up. Because in the end, we make objects, and we need to figure out how to make those things. And that’s the that’s where working with another artist and having a direct dialog with someone who’s more experience is we try to do it on ourselves, but you can, but it’s it’s hard. That’s where creating dialog with other artists is important at every stage of your life. Then that’s where, because of art is lonely, but also in just learning and learning how to do things is and we as artists, we love to talk shops, no colors, brushes, all these other things as well too. So, but he was also even Leonardo says nature is the true Master too. So Leonardo talks about and that goes back to Neil Leonardo’s teacher, Verrocchio, and Andrea Verrocchio is a really important, Pivotal artist for the Renaissance, because he was the one that almost not single handedly, but started drawing from life in the studio. So instead of just copying art from the past and then just redoing it a little bit more refined, like that’s what the late Gothic and international Gothic style is. It was this idea of looking towards nature. They were looking at classical works, like classical sculptures. That’s what influenced them. But then they also started looking towards nature as well too. So it was in verocchio studio where they started doing life studies of each other, drapery studies. And so that’s where Leonardo, writing that down in his notebooks kind of transformed how we see art as well, too, because we’re kind of following it as well. That’s we see the the true form of things too. Because obviously when we look at art and look at, let’s say classical art, I mean in Greek and Roman art, it is this beautiful, naturalistic expression of the human figure, but it is kind of a It’s not stylized, but there’s a way they made them too. So, but in just copying the surface of what those sculptures are, we don’t understand the principles that the artists use to create and conceive them and then express something as well, too. And so that’s kind of, I think that’s lifelong journey for let’s say you want to say classical artist is to try to understand the language, and then in understanding the language, which is proportion and how different things relate to each other, then express that in our, let’s say, chosen material.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:10

So, yes, and that is a lot. It is so much because, you know, we look towards the old masters because they it’s almost like they have this. And I think a lot of students also see it as like, oh, they have the magic formula. But of course, their magic formula is literally just experience and observations, extreme observation of nature. But even then, you know, you can, like you said, there’s nothing better than going to a real painting and observing it and just seeing how did this painter describe this person, or describe the shape of their cheek, or describe how the hands were, which Van Dyck, of course, has his very specific hands from his very specific hand model. So there. Are. It’s like, it’s almost like writing, right, where an author might describe a character in a particular way, or a scene in a particular way, and another one would do it in a different way. But you’re still trying to decipher, ah, what are they looking at? What are they gathering from this image that they’re, you know, visualizing, like, what is that? And then from there, you kind of have to figure it out on your own as well, through, like you said, practice process, observation and repeat and and then figuring out, okay, what are the magic proportions that make something look beautiful? Because then that’s the next thing. So it’s such a deep well of knowledge that you gain as an artist, and it feels like it never ends. You know?

Matthew James Collins: 20:47

No, definitely. And that’s where I guess. And then also the figurative adds the idea of subject matter and other things as well too. And then in addition, it’s the fluency of the material becomes the most important thing. And it’s certainly not most important thing. It’s a it’s how you use your materials as well too. So if you look at Rembrandt, how he created, how paint becomes something more. It becomes life, but it becomes these beautiful colors and impastos, and they all kind of melt together. And even Van Dyck does it as well, too, in a more subtle and delicate way, too. So it’s the fluency of the language using certain materials. And the greatest artists always had that kind of connection with their materials as well, too. And that’s where the I guess, we tend to specialize depending on what we do, because it takes a while to become fluent in these materials and then expand and then fluent, then in terms of the language as well, too. So Titian kind of described paintings as poems. I’d see that as well. I think that’s maybe the perfect way, because they’re not, we’re not writing novels. When things become a little bit too narrative in a painting, it becomes, it’s not living to its full potential. And so, and then it’s how you say something is as important as what you’re saying. And that’s what makes, I think, painting so suggestive and eternal in a certain way.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:59

So, yeah, and that also reminds me of that rule that even the writing has, which is, show, don’t tell. And it’s so similar in painting as well. Because, of course, you can, you can go the Audubon style and like, really get into the nitty gritty of painting something exactly as it is, or you can find a way to use, like you said, your knowledge of medium, to describe it in a more interpretive way that gets closer to your own perception of this thing, while also maintaining the integrity of what it is which is such a challenging little area to reach. You know,

Matthew James Collins: 22:40

yeah, and that’s where, I guess the optical comes out in the broker the optical. So this idea of look at a Velazquez and then the Bruce Lee Sergeant looks at that as well, our Frans halls and the and even Rembrandt as well too. We’re up close. These paintings all kind of come together. They’re just these globs of different color pigments on a canvas with different thicknesses and translucencies, but then you step back and they become something more than what they they seem to be up close. And so we see there’s the kind of the the idea of distance giving order to chaos and expression as well too. And I think that’s a very strong, powerful metaphor that goes through all the arts as well too. That’s it. And it’s at this for art can be also there it’s making the metaphor with music is very valid as well, too, this idea of notes and then how they come together to create something much more rich and deep than just the notes themselves, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:31

Yes, yeah. And then the order of the notes also provides mood, definitely, you know, yeah, whether you have, like, you know, the sad or happy music, which is minor and major. But yeah, it’s exactly that I feel like with painting, we have also such a wide range as well of things to play with with like color value, focus, contrast edges, which is it can it can be a lot, which I think is also why it’s so wonderful to see all the different ways that artists have interpreted the same medium. I think what’s interesting as well, because you brought up, you know, the way that the Baroque were interpreting the optical I find also interesting that today we are, we’ve been so influenced by the camera, right? I mean, of course, it started in the 1860s but we are even more so influenced by the camera because now it’s so readily accessible to everyone from their phone. So I have a couple questions attached to that. So if someone were to want to learn from the, you know, old masters, or try to learn to paint the traditional way? How would you say that they should completely reset their brain away from the camera?

Matthew James Collins: 24:49

Ah, that’s a that’s a great question, and that’s the response to that, because becoming more and more difficult to do that. That meaning. So when I was I would say the best way to just kind of go cold turkey and not look at images and start painting from life, and just paint directly from life and then doing so what happens is the familiarity painting from life every day. And I had the blessing to be able to do that while I was here in Florence, in my own work as well too, is when you just when we start looking at something long enough, and that’s the problem, we don’t have enough time anymore, right? We have all these things. We’re always rushing from one thing to another, looking at something long enough, you’ll see what we see in cameras is not what we see in real life, and that’s where people that go through the training here, and as you’ve done as well, too, you can see the human eye works differently, and that’s what’s and again, what we’re trying to do as artists, I think we all are, and only speak for myself, but we’re trying to speak to someone standing in front of our work who’s looking at it with their eyes too. And I think that’s a very so to remove the filters of the camera, move the filters of other thing, then you can that’s where the Baroque era, where they’re very sensitive how people perceive their works, and that’s why it became optical. I want to have that kind of sort of visceral experience in front of a picture as well, too. Even though we are influenced by we are influenced by photography, people are convinced the distortions they see in cameras are how we see the world, but that’s not how it is so. So this is that’s a tough question, can you eliminate the idea the photograph altogether? Maybe not. Maybe you can’t. And that even today is what kids are growing up, looking at little screens. Because obviously, in the 90s, we had a television, but you didn’t have a screen in front. You had a computer screen. Eventually there was no internet, so you had books. We looked at a lot of books, but that was already a camera looking at a picture, taking a photograph, but it was always not quite as distorted. The cameras weren’t as, let’s say, highly developed, where everything can be in the same focus as they are today, too. So technology is kind of divorcing us from a certain sense of reality, which I think is a bit of a shame. So even how we how you I mean, it’s wonderful we can talk right now, because look at your 1000 miles away. I’m right here, and we can still talk. But again, it’s not the same as seeing someone in person talking to someone in person. That’s this, and I think that’s even more so with experiencing a great work of art. And that’s where I’m getting a degree in art history in Chicago, and then living in Chicago as well too, where there’s obviously beautiful homes, beautiful places, but it’s a art wasn’t quite as central to, let’s say, say, a contemporary American way of living in my house, I was lucky. My parents had oil paintings and still lives, and they collected prints and everything as well too, but most people didn’t. And so to see art, you had to go to a museum. So this idea of an esthetic experience was confined to museums, and that’s very interesting idea as well. So, and this is where, again, coming to Florence, being able to see art in situ, because I studied everything in Slides, in art history, but then seeing in person, it was completely different. And it was almost and I guess a good example is, everyone studies in art history, the raft of Medusa by General com, no and, but when you see it in person, it’s, it’s it’s not, it’s like you never seen it before. It’s impressive when you see it that big in your book, or I see it on a screen, but when you see it in person, it’s a whole different, visceral experience. And that’s the power of art too. And you see that in Florence with the statues and the paintings and the press goes on the walls. And that’s which I would encourage, that’s experiencing things in person will help us overcome this idea the photograph as well, too, because we’re seeing things on small screens all the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 28:42

So yes, yeah, and I have a funny story about the raft of Medusa, because when I first saw it at the louver, it was bigger than my apartment in Italy. I can believe that, yeah, it’s just such a massive painting. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t imagine it, of course, from a tiny image. And when you see it, it is, I was just, this is literally bigger than the layout of my tiny apartment in Florence. And it is amazing to imagine, you know, someone working on this painting, you know, setting up the models and setting up the setting to reference from. It’s, it’s magical, because there’s just so much in the process. There’s so much time that goes into making something well, you know, just just getting it done well. And the other crazy thing that I often think about is the fact that as artists, we gain these skills that are already extremely challenging and difficult to gain, and then when you have to apply them, you’re already at the base level of like, yeah, you have the basics. Now you have to develop that even more. It feels like this never ending tantalizing mountain that you just have to keep climbing when you think you’ve read. The peak. You’re like, nope, now it’s now it’s time to actually apply these insane principles that I’ve learned into something great. And I mean, it doesn’t even have to be like, as insane as the Raft of the Medusa, because, of course, that’s a very ambitious painting. But there’s also, I think, a necessity for people to continue to make ambitious paintings anyway, because it’s inspiring to humanity. I mean, that painting has been around for a very, very long time, and it will continue to, hopefully, to be around and inspire more people to paint a painting bigger than their apartment,

Matthew James Collins: 30:37

and then the humanity in it, and then the drama, and then, and then, that’s where Italy is also a wonderful example. I mean, this Sistine Chapel by Michelangelo. So that’s another, and it’s just one of the many examples of decorative wall painting where the decorative kind of used in a derogatory term. But it’s actually it used to be seen as the highest form of painting is these large scale figure paintings, because they do kind of transform how we live in the environment which we’re observing them because we’re observing them from life, and they kind of surround us and envelop us too. So, and that’s where it can really end. That’s even, I guess, Rubens even wrote an essay on the the sublimity of scale, and so, so making things bigger. So that’s why we all talk about everyone looks at Rubens and thinks all these over exaggerated curves and other things as well too. Making things larger changes how we perceive them. So even the raft of Medusa is kind of seems cartoony, but you see it in person, it doesn’t seem cartoony at all. It seems just right. That’s those are lessons you do. You can only learn by doing, and unfortunately, in contemporary, well in, probably even before in, let’s say, an atelier system, or in any sort of learning academic school setting, it’s difficult to set up those kind of projects and do those things too. So it’s something you learn the skills. Then you just kind of have to jump in and do them, though, and you learn on the on the job.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:01

So, yeah, yeah. And, and also have some sort of economic support on the side so that you can afford to do it. Because that’s the other really tough part of like, Oh, I really want to, you know, make this incredible thing you kind of have to live below your means. And also, you know, be able to manage around economically, so that you can do it, unless someone out there is lucky enough to be wealthy and can just dedicate themselves to it, which more power to them. I hope they they can really enjoy that. But yeah, for the rest of us, it’s, it really feels like a labor of love that we just have to, like, oh, you really want to do this. Okay, you got to find ways to you will find a way to figure it out. Hopefully. Yeah, and then I find it interesting too, because the Reynolds quote also that we mentioned earlier, it’s a it’s one of those. It touches on one of the topics that I think a lot of artists think about, a lot of our listeners think about, which is the idea of the artistic voice. And you also mentioned it, how, like, you know, Van Dyke has had his way of painting with the same exact, exact pigments as Rembrandt, same exact pigments as many of the surrounding painters who were working at the time, and yet you can distinguish them personally. You know, for you, how, what? How was it? How long did you did it take for you to develop your own artistic voice?

Matthew James Collins: 33:26

Well, that’s a maybe. It’s a question. It’s a to respond to the question. It’s an answer in evolution, because we’re constantly refining and finding our voice as well too. So our voice is kind of limited to the skills that we can to use to express it, but it’s also, but it’s in, let’s say, enlarged by the culture we have behind our skills too. So I think there’s this combination between we have we’re, you can say we’re given a certain set of talent, or we build a certain set of skills to illustrate our ideas or to express them mechanically through painting or sculpting or drawing. And that’s what painting is, just drawing and color and then. But we it’s the culture behind them that enlarges them as well too. So it’s this kind of balance in between. And so the voice is everything we kind of absorb. That’s your culture, and that’s where even a artist, I think even Reynolds said, again, he said that most, the biggest crime for an artist was to be uncultured. He said, There’s a you can have all the skills in the world, but if you have no culture, and even he was a had as the hierarchy of the you know, he was a portrait painter, but he saw this idea as Dec figurative, decorative painting as being the top as well, too. But he’s like, having a culture behind you is one of the most important things for developing your own voice, I think, because then it’s just as we look at look Rembrandt, and we look at Van Dyke and we look at Titian, they kind of we they are. They become our men. Mentors, in addition to our mentors that teach us how to hold a brush and mix the color, and then through those two combinations together, something comes out as well too. So that’s kind of what I think it’s this kind of mix between these ideas as well and so but obviously, as we already mentioned before, it is just repetition and work too. And this is where I think a lot of people, there’s a kind of this idea is the art, and that’s especially in contemporary artists. The artist sits down, it’s inspired, and throws paint on a canvas, and that’s the work of art. But obviously we have something more, let’s say sophisticated, not so sophisticated, a little bit more subtle and maybe profound. And we’re searching for something ourselves, too. And so in the act of painting, we find who we are, and we find our personal voice as well. So but not looking at other paintings, that’s I see a lot of art students that they don’t they’re curious about expressing themselves, but they’re not curious about art. And I think if you all the thing, all the artists the past, we just already, we previously mentioned, without exception, they were all extremely curious about art. They and then, for one example is they all came to Italy, except for Rembrandt. Rembrandt didn’t come to Italy, but all the paintings went through Amsterdam. So he saw plenty of Italian art, but they were certainly there’s a curiosity that I think that combines all of us of looking towards and we look at Leonardo, he’s looking at art. But he says, Look, it’s a nature, this idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate, uh, metaphor of the artist is, we’re kind in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our, our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there. And so, so you never quite know your first your voice, and I guess. And I also think in today’s contemporary post World War Two art kind of, let’s say organization of culture is and that some of I had to paint, the painter in Chicago told me he’s like, you know how you become a painter? You get him at first, you get a master’s degree, you paint the same picture 25 times, and you get an art critic, and then you get a show, and then you move forward. And it’s this idea of kind of goes into consumerism and branding yourself. And so that’s, I think, the poetic, obviously, the poetic, I think, should take precedent over developing a style. That’s the whatever happens, happens. You just paint, if it’s beautiful, that you’re in the right direction. That’s another thing that. That’s what impressed me about Baroque artists, especially as well, too. You look at all of them and they went to such a each artist goes through a profound change artistically, from when they started and when they ended and so and wasn’t a planned evolution towards making things more abstract. Towards the end, they were thinking about other things, but they definitely if you look at early Van Dyke and late Van Dyke is two different paintings. You look at early Rembrandt, late Rembrandt is two different painters, almost. So today they wouldn’t be wrecked they you’re discouraged from doing that, because then you don’t have a and Velasquez is probably the best one. He’s he started a caravaggisti, super hard drawn, very beautiful, and then he ended somewhere completely different. And I think that’s Titian did the same thing. So this is where, unfortunately, don’t my advice is, don’t let, let’s say these kind of external but you should do what you want. But I don’t want these external pressures to force me to paint something or paint in a way that that’s not what I’m looking for.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:49

So, yeah, so you’re totally in agreement. Yeah, there’s just, there’s something. It’s interesting. Because, like you said, you know, trying to box yourself into because I feel like, you know, having a voice and having a style aren’t necessarily the same thing, since, I mean, you can make up a style and then, oh, I’m recognized as the person who paints eyes, or the person who paints this very specific thing. And I think the way that we develop as humans is so contrary to creating a product, right? Like we just a product implies something that rarely evolves or stays very much the same throughout. And it’s very like, you like how galleries would be like, Oh, you get exactly what we expect every time, right? Because it sells. But that’s not how humans naturally function, right? We evolve, we learn, we change. That’s how it works for most of us. And then, yeah, maybe there are some painters out there who are very happy painting the same thing over and over. There’s no hate to them, of course. But. But not all of us, you know, have that luck, right where, oh, maybe I feel like, yeah, I’ve painted enough sunsets, but I want to try this other thing, right? And it’s usually curiosity that really pulls you out, and then, oh, hopefully my gallery is okay with this, and they don’t drop me, or hopefully my gallery allows me to have the permission to explore and experiment, right? It can feel very, like I said, very contrary to how we develop as humans throughout life, yeah, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 40:36

I think that’s, that’s normal, and that’s because it, there’s kind of a and, but it’s also this idea of in contemporary world, this idea of franchising, having the same object and same idea, and this is where hopefully things will change. Whereas a work of art is an object and it is beautiful and it doesn’t have to be, it can be just a pretty still life, and it can live. Works of art can exist on so many different levels, which that’s what makes them so wonderful, and that’s and all the great works of art can function and be perceived on so many different levels, but that shouldn’t the artist does. We don’t want to be limited by the most base levels. Either. We’re always looking for something that’s a little bit more profound, and then in those simple that’s that we were talking about these contradictions in art, the in the most simple things, we find the most complex answers, and vice versa too. And so it’s just how many love stories have been written, but Romeo and Juliet, when you seen before, it’s, it doesn’t disappoint, and it’s still, it’s still profound and beautiful. That’s so it’s how it’s said as well, too, in the in the different the the verse is actually magical. So it’s and that’s goes with all the great arts as well. So the portrait is just the face, but again, it’s so much more when you put in the great artists and so and then as we, as artists, we want to get better. So we’re kind of, we have our own personal journey and our own personal journey. If we have the right culture and a good training, we can make some very beautiful things, and then we grow as well too. So that’s the and that’s kind of the which is good and but obviously, when we it’s which is good, but also, we also we also have to survive and other things as well doing. We also want to communicate to a and transmit something that I think the world needs as well. So this is where, again, painting from life, painting beautiful porches, painting things that aren’t photographic, is something I think the world kind of needs now, because we’re also doing things as well. So it’s important to do those ideas. And so, but it’s, it’s actually an act of rebellion in a certain sense, because it doesn’t make much sense monetarily, doesn’t make much sense financially, it doesn’t make much sense in terms of the same mainstream culture as well, too, and so, but again, that’s why I think maybe it’s so important. So at

Laura Arango Baier: 42:58

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But, yeah, there’s something really interesting about how paintings they take so long they take, you know, a priceless amount of time, right? Like you can’t really put a price on the experience and the lived life that you have to gain to paint something like the Raft of the Medusa, for example. That’s, you know, a price that no one could be really able to pay back. And I find that, you know, it is the antithesis of, you know, how. A lot of products are sold today. You know, they’re made to be used and discarded, or used and then broken after a certain amount of time, but paintings, they don’t really fall under that category. So I have hopes that, you know, we will remember that as humanity, that what will remain is the beautiful, handcrafted aspect of us. You know what it means to be a human, but yeah, and then the other thing that I think will always Outlast is the portrait, because it is especially like you had mentioned in one of your articles, that it is life size portraiture that is some of the most impactful to witness, because it it, it does have this uncanny feeling of you’re being observed. You’re being you know, you’re connecting with someone who’s long gone. Can you tell us a little bit about your own process with creating a portrait, and what parts of that process you recommend for people to also do so that they can improve their portraiture?

Matthew James Collins: 46:09

Oh, well, yeah, there’s that, well, there’s way, any different ways of creating portraits. And then I way that I was taught, it says so is the the site size method as well, too, which has kind of been used for lots of different applications, but it was primarily used as a portrait method to create portraits from life very quickly. And so this is where you have them canvas, right next to the side of the model. You stand back at a distance, which would be a viewing distance, which was very logical back in the Renaissance and onwards, because you have your viewers looking at the painting so and so, you could identify different kind of problems as well, in terms of proportion and drawing as well too. And so Van Dyke used the variation on that where he would occasionally put the canvas alongside and then bring the canvas back up to him as well, too. But it’s this idea of using distance to see proportions. And that’s where, just like in everything in life, the further back you get from something and you can see whether it works. And that’s where even Leonardo talks about this idea of viewing distance too. And so I kind of use this method to do life size portraiture, where you just set up the canvas alongside you stand back, and then by observing both your image and the model to scale. You can see, you can you can develop the shapes very quickly and very accurately too. So, but obviously there’s limitations, because it’s can only be, it’s a, you know, the pose has to be one viewing point. You can’t models in different, interesting dynamic poses as well, too. So that’s the beginning point as well. So this is where you can also, as I paint as well, too. Obviously, when you’re trying to learn, you have to have the model sit still, but you always want to discuss, talk with people. And then you can actually, let’s say, Delve and pull out their personality as you observe them over a long period of time too. So this is where I tend to paint portraits from life, pretty much all. And so where people pose, and they pose for several hours, and then I just kind of have a conversation, paint them. And then you, as you observe people, you see who they are. So this is where, again, working from references. It’s two dimensional, two dimensional. Three to two dimension. This three dimension observing something from life and then creating something in two dimensions, not just copying, it’s creating. And so that’s, I think, a very important opportunity, which, obviously it’s actually, it’s actually difficult to try to find people to pose, or people who are willing to pose, but once they do start posing, it’s actually quite pleasant and nice as well, too. It’s, it’s an, it’s a, not a torturous experience, so,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:42

yeah, yeah. I mean, it shouldn’t be, otherwise they won’t do it again. And then you have a half started painting, yeah, which kind of sucks, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 48:51

And then using, I use kind of a historical palette too. So because I was just inspired by the past, so you trying to use the same, I would retry to recreate the palette of what Van Dyke would use, or the British school, or even eg LeBron. And so what’s nice about the feet seat, which is the art gallery here, the gallery the feet see here in Florence, they have a self portrait section of all these artists. And they all, you know, they’re all holding their palettes, and you can see all the colors are using. So you go there not just to appreciate their their wonderful visions of themselves, these artists of the past, but you can see exactly their kind of tools of the trade as well, too. VG Lebrun, Elizabeth. VG Lebrun is one of the best portrait painters the 18th century, and she has a fantastic one self portrait in the Uffizi with all the colors she uses and how they organize them. So I did a lot of research art historically on different approaches to creating portraits as well too. And that was a really formative experience as well, too. And in addition to copying things as well. So I cop, I spent two years copying in the Art Institute when I was a student there as well, too. So this idea of copying, but also reading first person sources to try to find out the kind of mediums they use, the kind of oils they use. Used, and again, I would agree with you, if there’s no like magic medium, but trying different things out and trying to kind of understand what kind of that’s been. Finding Your voice is finding your technique. And finding your technique is experiment, experimenting with different materials where you can get the most beautiful image you can using the materials that are available to you by choice too. You choose. So some people paint thickly, some people paint thinly. I think the best painters do both. So you do so, and that’s a and then it’s just painting from life. And then if you can’t have the time to be able to work on things too. Again, this is where we see things through social media now. And then you see these. It seems like instantaneous works of art, but it takes, it takes a long time to make a nice portrait too, and again, and it’s easy, and that’s where we mentioned earlier about the workshop culture too. Is this idea, I can paint a portrait in two sittings. I can paint a portrait in a sitting. Well, that’s usually not the best portraits, either. So this idea of spending time and then finishing a painting takes a lot longer than starting one, and that’s what’s kind of that’s where the art and the beauty comes in as well, too. So in the general studio practice, I use pretty much what a lot of painters use today in terms of painting from life, but I think distance is really important, being able to stand back and seeing things from a distance. And obviously, because I’m going for optical ideas, but I think that’s also in terms of practical sense that even Leonardo talks about standing back and then using a mirror to see your shapes. BG, Lebrun talks about it. So there’s plenty of sources out there how to improve your portrait painting, but again, it’s again, the more you observe from life, the more you see things that you would not see in a photograph, too. And you see atmosphere through edges. You see create impact through accents and highlights and dark accents as well, too. And so this is where this idea of having the time to start creating paintings from life, especially having people pose, is a really important, I think idea observing people under natural light, if possible, or diffused light, so we can see those edges as well too. So again, in my practice, I try to create in nature what I want to achieve in my painting. So using natural soft lighting, using a certain kind of pose, organizing the lighting the way I want to and so then, in addition to that, using a knowledge of construction to explain the form which is not quite obvious, or to emphasize certain things as well, too, that should have a psychological impact at the end, and a mode of impact as well. So, so I say, yeah, so it’s uh, but also designing things too. You also designing the portrait, I think is the most important thing. So this is where, that’s where looking at paintings will help you make a better portraits and looking and so. And I guess one of the Van Dyke is fantastic, is a and he uses a variety of poses as well too. But no one is quite as, let’s say, creative in poses, as Sergeant. Sergeant. If you look at sergeant, he creates. He has so many different poses and dynamic poses. They tend it is inspiring to see his portraiture and how he can play spaces and put lightings on them to create something that’s quite that brings out the personality of the person.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:16

Yes, yeah. And that also just reminded me, because you mentioned, you know, looking at other painters. That reminds me also of the quote, you know, there’s nothing new under the sun, sure. So there’s no need to reinvent the wheel and try to come up with things when it was probably already done by an old master or another painter, and you can observe how they did it. And you know, you know, create something derivative of that, or try to understand the portrait that you’re doing while also observing one in a similar situation, which is something that I was doing. You know, when I was trying to teach myself some more portraiture outside of class, I would try to find a painting that was in a similar pose to one that I wanted to paint, and then that way, it’s a lot easier to like look at how this specific painter described the cheekbone, or how they describe the shadow under the eye, in the in the, you know, beneath the eyebrows, or the shadow beneath the nose, how they described the chroma of the nostrils or the area around the nostrils. Okay, like, how did they do that? How do they do this without exaggerating? Because that’s the other very typical thing that I think we all go through when we’re starting out, is we tend to we see color and we just exaggerate it, which is also something you learn over time, that gray is your best friend, or low chroma versions, or lower Chroma versions of most colors are much, much nicer to the eye and having little pops here and there. But of course, you learn this through observation and through looking at the old masters and just trying it a million times as well.

Matthew James Collins: 54:59

No, I. I agree. I think that’s where the it’s that is kind of contemporary paint is where you just over hit the color, and then you have to knock it down where it was in the past. It was a little bit. It was the opposite, where you have dead coloring, and then you build up to that. And then when you start looking at the paintings, and I mean, when you see a Titian in real life, it doesn’t disappoint in terms of color, and that’s where, and that’s and Van Dyke especially, that’s where. So these, there’s a sensitivity to color which is quite much more harmonious than that’s even a Monet or you go to late Impressionist paintings well too. There’s a subtlety in those colors which are quite admirable. And then also colorful too. They’re not, they don’t they’re not boring. And so this is where. And again, I would, I think that’s a great advice, too. And I did the same thing. You always want your learning. You kind of find heroes, and you’re kind of development, and you say, Oh, gee, Van Dyke, set up a model like this. I’m gonna set up a model like this and see what happens. And so that think that’s the perfect way to start entering as because we as artists, we have to do it so we understand it. Just talking about is one that is not enough. So it’s in creating something, then we can understand all the intricacies of the construction and application and other things as well too. And at the same time, understand the visual sensibility and language as well too. So in copying old master pictures, I was copying them to understand technique, but then also you become more sensitive to the visual language as well, too. So the only thing that’s new under the sun is us. No, there’s never been you or me before, and we’re unique. And so when we look at the world around us and bring things in, and then we kind of put something out, it becomes unique if we are, I think, honestly and sincere, sincerely using the visual language to its fullest, and that’s where, and that’s where our own personal interests and formations and what you do helps develop our culture. And that’s where the culture comes to the voice, and that’s where it comes out as well, as well. So we kind of, that’s what we need to do. So we don’t, and that’s, again, it is this idea of in contemporary art culture too. It’s this like, Oh, his innovative technique of doing this. And that’s very it’s like, you have to create, like, a brand new, improved formula. It’s like, well, no, I’m not making a new laundry detergent. I’m just, I’m trying to make a beautiful painting. So, and this is where we just use the same these. We don’t have to create something new, but what we create is new, and that’s where, again, what we’re doing is reinforcing how special we are as individuals, instead of just a part of an economic system or part of a commercial system, which we are because we have to, that’s how the world works. But again, I think we’re so much more, and that’s why art is important. It goes back to that we’re trying to through our personal expression of ourselves, people can experience their individuality, and that’s maybe what art should be doing as well, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:54

Yes, that is very, very inspiring. Because, of course, it goes from like, okay, we’re part of this collective thing, but then we’re also, like this tiny piece of it, kind of like, you know, like a loop, you know, like you need the collective to individuate. Because, like Alan Watts, one of my favorite philosophers, he used to say that finding yourself or like, you know, finding out who you are is very difficult. You can only do it through the other because it’s like trying to touch the tip of your finger with the same tip. It’s Wow. You can’t really do that. So exploring the solve has to be through also observing your surroundings and participating, like you said, like in culture, and learning about it and learning about, okay, well, this isn’t what I am, but this might be what I think I am. And then, you know, that’s why I think, also, like you said earlier, that the practice of painting is truly the practice of finding out who you are, which that’s a whole, whole other, very deep, deep well, that you just kind of experience as you do it as well. But yeah, and then I also wanted to ask you, because you also sent me another very interesting article, which I link, and you talk about the museums being almost like an art Zoo. Do you mind elaborating a little bit

Matthew James Collins: 59:23

on that? Sure, yeah, because I did an article for the epic times, which is a new was it New York newspaper, and it was a series called Art speak. So I wrote a series of articles. They asked me about a work, about individual works of art, and then just talk about them. And so in that article, where I talked about art zoos. It was really about art in context. And so it was the fawn, the dancing fawn of Pompe, which is this beautiful little bronze sculpture that’s in the archeological museum there, and so and so it was just talking about that sculpture in particular. But then again, it kind of relates to my whole experience of growing up. In the Midwest, which was in Chicago, being a cultural city, and living in Oak Park, which is a cultivated sort of suburb, and having an artistic family, snuts, and then having a reference point for a big, let’s say important art was the museum too. And so you go there it goes on this esthetic experience that would be reserved for the museum. But then, as you you can see, and so in that article, I was trying to explore the importance of context for what works of art. So a lot of the works we go to museums now, and museums were kind of a phenomenon that kind of grew at 18th century, 19th century, especially the Archeological Museum in Naples. And what kind of really struck me as that, because it’s a wonderful little sculpture that was in a in one of the houses of Pompe, and it was a garden sculpture. But if you look at it, it’s just a masterpiece and an anatomy and this little pond that’s dancing, and so a beautiful sculpture. And what’s interesting Kenneth Clark, sir. Kenneth Clark, in his book The nude, talks about and he kind of points it out as being a an example of the static and the deadness of classical sculpture in terms of kind of something frozen in time, and talking about that in his overall arc of explaining the nude, the elevation of the evolution of the nude in Western Art, and that kind of something hit me is that didn’t quite explain what that sculpture was. Because if you go to Pompeii and you see these houses which were highly decorated with frescoes everywhere, and then there, obviously these houses were like full of people. And this is where, living in Italy, there’s a more there’s a very active social life. And then everything’s kind of, you go into churches, they’re packed with decoration. There’s living in Florence. You see, there’s art everywhere. Art was a in the ancient world, it was as well, too. Art was an integral part of civic life, private life and sacred life, and everywhere. So it was. Art wasn’t something reserved for a museum and so and so talking about and when you look at the fawn in the museum, the archeological museum Naples, you can kind of see what he was saying wasn’t completely wrong. It’s kind of frozen into a little, little fawn frozen in a glass box. But if you imagine in the middle of a fountain with the colorful frescoes and the music and people living their lives around it, then it’s not it’s not frozen anymore. It’s living. And that’s where and a lot of the art we see in museums, most of almost 90 more than 90% was meant to be seen in houses or churches or civic buildings, and they had an other life. And so this is when you see something that’s natural habitat. That’s when you can truly understand what the work of art is, and you can comment on it so and then when you see it in that sense, that’s the fawn isn’t frozen, but it’s dancing within this kind of the life of a house, of a household with families and children and colorful walls and other things as well too, and water and sun and and gardens. And that’s that’s where I did when you go to a museum and they are and I love museums, and I spent too much time, not too much time. You never spend much time. And I love going to museums because, like visiting friends, but you can see that there. When you see altar pieces, you see other paintings. They weren’t meant to be there. They were meant to be somewhere else. And so in my kind of quest to try to figure out, why do those pictures look the way they did? You kind of also have to understand the context in which they were made. And so when we look at when talking this again, it goes back to Baroque painting, when they were thinking about the optical effects. It wasn’t because it was supposed to be in some little room. It was supposed to be in a big room. They usually artists would design things, and they had to be maybe the blessing, the benefit, but also the challenge to design things on commissions for specific spaces. And they took that into consideration when they were creating those works of art. So I was kind of, I’m curious of why would certain pictures be a certain way? Because they would optically correct them so they could look certain, look in a certain way, in a certain wall, on a certain certain lighting as well too, and that’s very obvious in religious paintings as well. So we see, when you see sacred art, you know, paintings in museums, they weren’t meant to be there. They’re meant to be in other spaces. So, and that’s kind of a, I think, a missing link in a lot of art today is we don’t make it for a specific context. And that’s not that’s that’s beyond our control. So unfortunately, so that’s where I kind of see them as art zoos. They see these poor paintings kind of stuck there, where they were meant to be in someone’s home, or meant to be they meant to be lived with every day. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s kind of like a world that’s my life mission is we just need more art on everybody’s walls and everyone’s house, so you can you live with art every day. And I think that’s another lesson of being a blessing. Living in Italy is you see that everywhere art, especially Florence, and even more so than other cities, Florence, there’s art everywhere. And so everywhere, and that’s where it’s on the street corners and the adic was these kind of little altar pieces on every corner. There’s a Madonna and child or a saint, there’s statues, there’s and then there’s. Decorated doorways. There’s door knockers. And so every part of our life is accompanied by art. And so we don’t have to go visit. And so when you have to go visit something that’s in a little room where it’s not supposed to be, that’s kind of sad, I think it’s kind of that’s why it becomes a zoo, because we don’t quite understand what they are. You don’t see seeing a tiger in a zoo is not like seeing a Tiger in the Jungle, and then you understand why the tiger is the way it is, because it’s in the jungle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:29

So, yeah, I love that. Because, like you said, you know, like, Art has always been almost like an active participant in life, and to separate it from its context. It does, it does deaden it a little bit. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of sad to experience it that way. Like, imagine if the ecstasy of st Teresa was outside of the original church, where it is like, Oh, wow, this is an amazing sculpture. But at the same time, like, you push that button, the light turns on, and you’re like, in this amazing experience of a sculpture that is meant to inspire people.

Matthew James Collins: 1:06:15

Yeah, you’re not getting the whole experience either. So if they take the out of where it’s supposed to be. It’s still a beautiful sculpture, but then it’s we’re missing something, and then it becomes something. Then it becomes something. It’s almost not. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s where, how do we solve that? I don’t know, but I was lucky, because I was commissioned to do a couple big paintings for stairwells in a school in North Dakota for a classical school. So I did the decoration of independence, and then I did the foundation of Rome. And that was a wonderful experience, because then I was able to kind of put into practice this idea of using optical taking the view lines where the pictures are seen, and then adjust the the adjust the perspective on the figures, or just this perspective on the viewpoint, so that we could design the picture in terms that how it seemed from a variety of viewpoints too. And that’s another thing where you, when we look at paintings as well, we kind of assume you’re supposed to see just from the front, from the side, but paintings are meant to be seen from all different kinds of angles too. I don’t know I get, I don’t have you. When you go to museums, it’s very kind of fun to look at paintings obliquely and looking slightly from the angle. And you can see how it changes the values and the colors as well too. So it’s this idea of discovery as well. Pictures as well. You see something from far away, and then you come brings you close to it as well, too. So this is where experiencing works of art in person, there’s lots of different levels of experience, from the first impact from a distance, as you get close, to see how things fall into different details and brush work. And so it becomes this a truly interactive experience, which is, I think, something that that, again, it’s a as you that participates in our lives and accompanies us, and then also makes us reflect about things, but also gives us joy and emotions and all these other things as well, too, and it and it makes life better. It just makes life better. I mean, there’s nothing more sad than a blank white wall for me. So what want to see pictures on them?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:20

I totally agree, yes. And that also reminded me of how Michelangelo, when he would make sculptures that we’re meant to be seen from below, he used to play with the perspective to make the upper body bigger in you know, when you would see it like eye to eye, but from below, it’s perfectly proportional, like it looks like, yeah, that’s, that’s a guy who’s perfectly proportional, but you see him, you know, eye to eye, and he’s massive, like, almost like a cone of the way that he’s increased the proportion so that it doesn’t look wonky from below, which is incredible. I mean, the fact that they this is something that is naturally thought of, right? It’s not just like, oh, make a nice sculpture and it’ll go up there. It’s like, No, I want people to see this and to understand what it is from below. I don’t want them to see a receding figure. That is. It is another part of the craft that is so amazing, and it sounds awesome. You know, the what you did the paintings to make sure that they’re seen from the correct angle. I think that’s also like next level, like art in its home, type of feeling, instead of, oh, here’s a painting that I made, and let’s find a wall where it fits. It’s more like,

Matthew James Collins: 1:09:37

Sure, then what happens? Happens. And I like, that’s not a satisfying response. And then it’s also, it goes back to the Greeks too, because the Greeks always use optical correction, I guess, for there’s architecture and sculptures, and that’s where because, and that just shows you, maybe they were looking at the world in a better way than we are. So they’re seeing things that a bit more profound, not profoundly, but they were looking more. Closely, and then living things more fully, too. That’s, again, we tend to coast over things. Now this is just kind of flip across screens and flip across images without truly looking at them, but again, maybe looking at something. And then that’s why we take that, I guess, as ours, we take that on as a responsibility, because if someone’s going to spend time looking at our works of art, we want something to be deep and something that will be rewarding over a long period of time, too. So the same kind of esthetic experience we get when we go to museums, if we have to, that’s to see Van Dyke and everything and Titian, but we see go every time you go back to a masterpiece painting, it never disappoints, and you see new things, and it’s like a it’s there’s a and that’s even a when. And as artists, we see things in a certain way. But even regular people, let’s say this civilian life, they see things that they do enjoy art as well, too. I mean, that’s what’s kind of I think, in hardening is when you see how popular the sergeant show was. I mean, how many people visited that? How many people visited the Bouguer show before there’s a Van Dyke Show, there’s the Reynolds show. So figurative art is kind of making, not just a comeback, but people are are interested in these things as well too, and not just in terms of a an economic, financial thing, but, you know, average, normal people are interested in in art as well too, and it’s our responsibility to make things that are engaging interesting, and then through poetry, they understand this kind of idea of catharsis, and this idea of living through works of art as well too, in a healthy way.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:36

So, yeah, yeah, not saying it is, you know, like you said, like, Oh, it’s just something you swipe on, you know, it like, I also agree it’s our responsibility to make something or to continue to create works that stop people in their tracks. And, you know, instead of making something that’s consumable, like, you know, I think about how commodified like decoration has become, like, even just very simple, like, even this, you know, this video, right? Me editing it like it took, it takes a while to edit a video we become so accustomed to, like, oh yes, of course, it’s being edited. That’s how it is. But that also is something that takes time and effort to put in a specific composition and to make it easy on the eyes, but we take that for granted. But that’s why it’s also good to make paintings and pieces that people certainly will stop and look at and realize, oh, every corner of this 2d surface right has taken a single brush stroke or multiple brushstrokes to fit by a single hand, instead of just, oh yeah, that’s just how it is, because that’s what we expect. Like there’s, I feel like there’s a bit of a disconnect too there. But yeah, I wanted to ask you too, because you mentioned, you know, having you have your courses that you teach, and you also have commissions that you’ve taken. What are some of the avenues that you’ve taken to both live from your work and or from your skills and expertise?

Matthew James Collins: 1:13:12

Well, galleries always help, so I but I’m not a real get big gallery. I tend to paint, and my paintings change, and ideas change, and so I tend to create paintings. But there’s, I have a painting, there’s a one’s going to Lisbon. My figurative work tends to be a bit buried, and travel to different, smaller galleries across Europe. And then I do I’ve been always doing portrait commissions as well, too. So there’s a bit of always getting your work out there and sharing it with people, because that’s what we because that’s what we wanted. We want to, obviously, we’re looking trying to find ourselves, but we want to share our journey with other people. And I think that’s another and again, essentially what we do in creating works of art is we’re trying to share this kind of beautiful experience that we have in creating art with other people. And I think that’s important as well too. We create it for ourselves, but without anyone seeing it. That’s that’s very romantic 19th century bohemian idea, but deep down, we want to people to see the kind of the world and share our vision and so and then so and so different gallery shows. But I’ve never been a big into commercial galleries, because it’s my work tends to be a bit kind of idiosyncratic. But portrait commissions have always been wonderful as well, too. And then I do, I do teaching as well too. So I was teaching at Cecil for a while, and then I’m teaching at a university here in Florence. And then I do, I tend to, and I do some private lessons in my studio now as well too, being slightly dis, I don’t, I’m not, contrary to workshops, but I kind of do a successful workshop. Certain things have to happen. And then the kind of condensing of what I want to kind of transmit, especially in terms of portraiture, which I think I’ve a lot to share, it’s difficult to do in a three or four days as well, too. So I kind of, I always try to paint along with the people that I’m from the very beginning to the end too. So I don’t. Like, do a demo, right? And then everyone paints. I kind of paint as everyone else is painting. And then I kind of teach so this way, and I talk and paint at the same time, yes, so I can do both. So you kind of try to, because a lot of painting is, I think, in terms of teaching painting, it’s seeing how someone paints, and seeing what they’re doing, and then kind of intervene, what is the title? Where’s intervenida is kind of step in at the right moment and then put them on track or change something or adjust something. So, because people tend to do things without thinking about it, they’re used to it. And then, if they’re mixing it, Colorize, oh no, to do that, and then change this. No, stand there. Look at this. And so without seeing someone do that, or just have them do it on their own, and then correct afterward, I see as less productive as being right there and so. And then that kind of limits, obviously what I can do. So I only have a certain amount of space, so I tend to only have one or two students at the most, and then I paint a portrait along with them too. I think that’s maybe the best way to teach anyway, so, but obviously there’s not. There’s other ways to teach as well, too, and you can definitely transmit a lot as transmit a lot as well, too. So I tend to certain painters come in and visit me, and then they kind of, we just paint a portrait together, and that’s one way of learning.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:09

So, yeah, yeah, no, but that’s a that’s an excellent point, because that was actually one of my frustrations as a student as well. Is being told after the fact, oh, no, you did this wrong. And it’s like, Well, you saw me. Why didn’t you intervene, like how you were saying because that would have prevented me from spending so much time trying to resolve something that I could have avoided. But I think, you know, that’s, that’s one of the hard parts as well, and probably the one of the reasons you you keep so few students is because it is hard to do that for every single student when there’s so many of them and only one instructor. Yeah, so I

Matthew James Collins: 1:16:49

and teaching is a skill too. So this is where it’s I was lucky. Where I was, where I studied, I got was an excellent teacher, so I learned teaching skills there. So teaching is communication, it’s also empathy, and then it’s also direction. And so those three different kind of, let’s say, elements come together. I think to make good teaching is where you have to empathize with what the students going through doing, and then you have to be able, to be able, you have to know what the what they should be doing, and then you have to give them direction to do it as well too. So, and that’s and communicate that in a productive way too. Yeah, I’ve had lots and lots of really bad art teachers over the years, and so just, just terrible. And so when I try to endeavor is not do what they did. So because I’ve had studying fresco, they secure and they just come, they say, It’s all wrong, it’s terrible, it’s all bad. I was like, well, that’s thank you for the feedback. But then how do you make that better? Nothing. So it’s like, so yeah, there’s plenty of people that, there’s plenty of teachers that are antiso. Teaching is a, I think, a great way, if you’re an artist, to supplement and to, let’s say, work and share the knowledge that you acquire. But I think first, as we mentioned before, in July, so the problem. So let’s say the the problems of, let’s say contemporary art schools, where students are teaching, they are not teaching very much, and they don’t know how to teach. And so that becomes a problem too. So first, learn how to do something, and then being able to communicate it. Then you become you can teach too. So giving lessons and other things, and obviously need a learning curve. It’s not like you learn how to teach like that. It’s practice. But so definitely, teaching is a, I think, a nice way to augment your because being an artist is hard. It’s a terrible it’s that. It’s terrible, it’s hard, it’s stressful, it’s some people are commercially minded, and they can really make the jump. Like people are commercial artists go into fine art, but they become commercial Fine Arts, and that’s fantastic, and they make very beautiful things. But if that’s not your personality, you just have to kind of deal with that as well, too. But I think in terms of teaching, you have to be able to, as you’ve experienced firsthand, you have to be able to transmit something and help people. If you can’t, well, then that’s you’re you’re benefiting, but the student’s not benefiting as well. So that’s kind of a shame in the end.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:08

So yeah, yeah. And I think it’s almost like a rite of passage for many of us to experience not so great teachers. It’s inevitable. I mean, not everyone that we meet is going to be an excellent teacher. But I think it also teaches us how not to teach, which

Matthew James Collins: 1:19:25

is really great. And then also someone and obviously, art is hard, so obviously, if companies discouraging you, then you just have to keep going. So obviously, if you’re easily discouraged and you stop, well maybe you should, because art is hard and art is it’s hard on every different level. But if it’s something that drives you forward and it needs you, and you need to do it, and you want to do it, then you just do it. And then obviously all the obstacles that are in the way will you overcome them one way or the other. And then obviously it’s but that’s what you. That, unfortunately, it’s not easy, and so you need a thick skin to be an artist, but also you need to believe in yourself as well too. So this is where it’s all again. It’s a it is this kind of circle of contradictions, where these different things come together, where you have to move forward as well.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:15

So yes, absolutely. And I know you just gave some really excellent advice, but do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Matthew James Collins: 1:20:29

Well, I think we’re all full time artists if we’re thinking about and doing it too. So this is where, again, if you if, if you have to get sidelined doing a little bit of this and doing that, that’s where it’s I think we’re kind of, you’re born an artist, and then you can, you can, if you have find the opportunity to express yourself and then be able to make a living off of it, that’s fantastic, because we have to make a living. But in the end, you shouldn’t. Again, unfortunately, that’s how the world is today. I think it’s a shame, because there’s a lot of poetic people that are discouraged from going into the arts because they don’t think there’s an opportunity in it, or they can’t make a decent living, and other things as well too. But if you’re destined to do it, you’ll do it and then just kind of overcome those obstacles as well to become a full time artist. Very rarely are people that are, let’s say, poetically inclined, full time artists, because they, unfortunately, there’s a lot of different ideas that go in together there too. So you just kind of, kind of, I don’t have good advice in that sense, though,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:37

I totally get you. It’s a It’s rough. It’s really rough. I mean, that’s why some people, I think, get day jobs, or they become teachers, or we’re in a bit of a strange time in the world right now. So I think there are weird, different opportunities that appear somehow. But yeah, it’s hard to give concrete advice. I totally agree.

Matthew James Collins: 1:22:00

Yeah, you do the best you can. And then obviously, it also depends on the personality as well, too, and what you want to do. So I mean, this is where, if you’re true to yourself, whatever you do, and then you can still be a great artist and sell, let’s say landscapes. And you could still, still lives. And you can do it as long as you’re being sincere and true to yourself. And for me, if you make beautiful things, that’s the most important thing. And then, obviously, sooner or later, they will be appreciated. Unfortunately, sometimes it’s later, it’s not sooner and so and then, obviously, there’s lots of other aspects of becoming a full time artist, which is networking and business sense and then, but some, I think it’s a lot of those, and then knowing how to insert yourself in certain environments, and then getting certain ideas and gallery shows and but that’s has very little to do with art, as we were mentioned in the very beginning of the conversation about the let’s say art, basil and other things as well, too. That’s a whole different kind of you can become a full time artist and not be a very good artist. And so that’s when you can be a great artist and not be able to be a full time artist too. So but again, that’s, I think there’s space for everybody. So you just have to find out where you fit in there and then do the best you can.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:10

So yeah, yeah, that’s all you really can do. There’s room for everyone. I do. I do agree, yeah. And then if someone wants to take classes with you, or if they want to see more of your work, do you have any exhibitions going on, or anything that you would like to promote?

Matthew James Collins: 1:23:34

But anyone’s interested in taking less wants to come study privately, send me a message, and then, as I do, plenty commissions, anyone’s interested in getting a nice portrait painted, they can always contact me. It’s come out to Florence as well, too. And so and I have a paintings in different museums. So if you happen to be in Barcelona, there’s a painting in the museum there and their permanent collection, and a painting in Florida and in Orlando, at the basilica there. So there’s obviously seeing paintings in real life is the best so, but that’s unfortunate, and galleries in the USA, there’s a nice there’s a jack Meyer gallery of some paintings and sculptures there. So I’ve had the end to be there. So, but other than that, if you come to flourishes, write me, and then you can come visit. So it’d be a pleasure to see other artists and other artists and other art students. Anyone wants to come, just

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:25

contact me. Awesome. Yeah. And then what is your website? And if you have social media, the website

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:31

is like, my name, luckily, Matthew James Collins, and then Instagram is the same thing. Matthew James Collins, artist, so

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:39

perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matthew For the very informative, inspiring conversation. I this was brain candy for me. Oh, well,

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:51

thank you. It’s a pleasure chatting with your wonderful conversationalist.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:54

So thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you to everyone out there for. Listening to the podcast, your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career: collectors. Our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long-term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialogue—through conversations at shows, home salon events, and gallery openings. Many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media, and even texting to stay in touch, share new work, and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity, from handwritten thank-you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers but possible friends, supporters, and “connectors” whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Episodes mentioned in order of appearance:

• 81 Steve Atkinson

• 87 Johanna Spinks

• 94 Karen Blackwood

• 61 Nanci France-Vaz

• 99 Heather Arenas

• 101 Joseph Gyurcsak

• 120 Kim Casebeer

• 130 Scott Ruthven

• 162 David Griffin

• 166 Miriam Schulman

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Steve Atkinson: 0:00

You need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that they’re collecting.

Johanna Spinks: 0:17

You know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime.

Scott Ruthven: 0:23

Nurture your community, your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give?

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career, collectors, our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialog through conversations at shows, home, salon events and gallery openings, many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media and even texting to stay in touch, share new work and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity from handwritten thank you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers, but possible friends, supporters and connectors, whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Steve Atkinson: 1:52

The other thing that illustration gave me and being an illustrator, is understanding people are going to roast me for this, understanding that art is a business, and so if you want to make a living at art, you need to not just be excellent at your technique, especially if you’re you know, representational artists, you also need to be able to understand that there are deadlines, especially if You’re in galleries or in shows. You need to be able to get things done on time. You need to make a profit, make a little bit of a profit, otherwise, you know, you’re going to end up like so many artists that just can’t make a living at it, and understanding, Oh, the other big thing, the big difference between illustration and fine art, is that with fine art, it really is centered on it’s a relationship based way of living with illustration. You have, you know, your commercial clients come to you with with fine art, you need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that They’re collecting. They and this is true in all business. People do business with people that they like, and so having that email list is so important, having social media is important. Advertising can be important, but picking up the phone and calling people who have bought your work and staying in touch with them so important, and something that I’m trying to get better at, because I’m a big introvert, but luckily, I have learned that one on one, I’m I’m really good, but Talking to big crowds of people, or going to shows where there’s a big crowd, that’s a little more daunting for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:06

That’s That’s understandable. I completely relate to that. It is definitely a lot easier to, you know, have your focus on one person. I also get very overwhelmed in large groups. But, yeah, those are excellent, excellent, excellent points. And I think you know, especially, you know, if you have a career in illustration, right, or, like when you did, you get used to all that. Maybe not the one on one collector side, but you definitely get used to deadlines speed and okay, you got to get this done exactly the way that the client wants it. Because, of course, the client is the one who tells you exactly tells you exactly what they want. Versus, you know, in fine art, you can come up with almost anything and and then the collectors have to come to you, you know, but you have to put yourself out there. So it’s a little bit of a back and forth, different, yeah,

Steve Atkinson: 4:57

yeah, yeah, most definitely. And I. I think so often we don’t understand that it really is a relationship driven kind of kind of a calling. I didn’t realize that when I first started, and I’ll tell this little story, I was at a show, and a lot of times you’ll see when artists are at the show, the artists will glom together. You’ll you’ll see somebody that you know, who’s an artist, and you’ll go over and talk to them. And there’s all these collectors that are, that are there, or people that you don’t know yet, and you can spend your whole time just talking to an artist or a bunch of artists that you know. And I had, one time I had someone come up and insert themselves into a conversation that I was having with another artist, and they didn’t know who I was, and when they found that, they said, Oh, are you in the show? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. And they said, well, where’s your art? And it was a show that had many different rooms of art. And I said, Oh, it’s over in this room, over here. And went on to talking to the person that I was talking with. My wife comes up afterwards, and she said, Honey, you may want, if someone comes up and asks where your art is, you may want to take them over and show them. So I never made that mistake again. But it’s just one of those things that’s not innate, unless you realize that you’re building relationships. And it’s nice to talk to the people that you know, but it’s much better to go up and talk to someone, maybe, who’s looking at your art or someone else, and find out what their tastes are in art and start that conversation where they’re from. Do they have any artwork? Is it prints? Is it originals? What do they look for in a painting? I just find that if you start talking to people about what their likes are, the conversation is so easy. I mean it, people love talking about themselves, and so you just go down that road, ask them a question, and you can just nod for 10 minutes, you know. Or a lot of times, you’ll find you have a lot in common. I have made such good friends doing that, and to this day, not just people who buy my art, but people who you just generally like you genuinely like. So it’s, it’s a great experience, if you look at it as this person has something to offer me. I don’t know them, but I know we have things in common. We just have to figure out what they are, yeah, so that’s it. I’m off my soapbox.

Johanna Spinks: 7:35

Dave touched me too. It’s a two way street, you know, and the conversations that we had, and by the way, in the face of Ventura, we I linked in with a newspaper, and all those sitters went on to a radio show too, so after the sketch had been painted. So it really was about, you know, telling their story. And I think that’s what made it powerful, actually. And I will say, if you’re going to do these kind of things again, if you’re interested in putting your artwork out there in terms of marketing, and we have to talk about marketing that, you know, be kind of thinking, Well, you know, what is the end game of this as well? You know, because going off and painting 130 portraits of people is a big time commitment, as you know, doing a show like this, those things are a time commitment. You’ve got to arrange it. You’ve got to do this, that and the other and it was a significant part of my yearly thing, doing that. So I was very aware right from the beginning that they were never going to be for sale, that they were, I think I sold one of them, and then said I did sell one of them, and it was a very bad idea. Changed my mind and asked if I could have it back and give her a painting instead, which, which she lovely, lovely. So agreed to, because this the Boone Special Collections archives had asked if they could take the Malibu and rebuild series into their collection. And she was one, one of the paintings that was missing I needed, I needed to have her included. So in terms of marketing and building your brand, you decide where you’re you know what you’re aiming for. I mean, I really wanted those portraits to be archivally stored somewhere. And I just started with that intention from the very beginning. And it took a lot of effort and a lot of very good people in the towns to help me achieve that. And that goes back to the one on one contact with people you know, the people that that are your connectors. You know, just, you know, nurture those the connectors. You know that somebody said, somebody famous, and I hope I’m not misquoting, but you know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime, and I say if you have 50 serious connectors, you know people who like you, like your art, and. Stay with you over the years that will take you so far. You know, the connectors are as gold as the connectors collectors are. Connectors are as gold as collectors. So, yeah, I would say, always have in mind, you know, that the mountain you’re trying to reach in terms of, you know, well, could this go somewhere? So with the 365 days of drawing, you know, there was a show, there was a book, self published book, there was a article in American artist magazine that was so never think, Oh, I’ve done this. That’s it. Like, think, well, what can I do with it afterwards? Because a lot of the stuff for me happened after the individual Town projects were finished, the paintings were in storage. And then then I said, Well, now I start the what do we do with this?

Karen Blackwood: 10:51

Surely have one collector that is one of my best collectors, who found me online when I lived in Michigan and bought a piece and continues to buy my work out here now, and I’ve had her to my home, and I usually will have a once a year salon show at home where I invite only my collectors or future collectors, kind of like a way to just show them what I’m working on, so they become, you know, friends, and I value them. And then through my galleries, I would say, you know, they maintain a really strong relationship with collectors. And anytime I’m working on a new piece, they’ll make sure that collector gets to see it. And then out on social media, you know, people get to stay in touch. And the newsletter actually on the FASO website, my newsletter. I built a strong following during covid. I couldn’t paint my large paintings. I thought I would kill them and I and I knew I had to paint. So I did a that I could keep working. And I knew I could sustain focus for, you know, a six by eight. So I think I painted about 80 of them, close to 80, and sold them all through my newsletter on FASO. So I would let the buyers know that, you know, next Tuesday, you know, look for my newsletter and first come, first serve. It gets sold to, you know, whoever tells me I want it. And so I built up, you know, I think I added 400 followers from that campaign, on that, on that newsletter, because they were buying the painting. So, so the newsletter is also a big thing, I would say, social media and keeping in touch through a consistent newsletter on FASO has been, yeah, fine art studio online, for those who don’t know, galleries

Nanci France-Vaz: 13:17

is somebody else’s business, and you know, you’re taking a chance that they are going to put you in front of their collectors. Some of the problems today that I see with that, I think in the 90s or turn of the 21st Century, you know, they’re they were really good before the whole social media thing. And I think since social media came out, as a business owner myself, I kind of can feel for, you know, social media artists are able to sell on their own right now, but of course, they have to find the collectors. That’s very difficult to do. I’ve done it, and I have done, you know, in the past year, I do have those collectors that have seen my work through Instagram, and so that’s why I focus on Instagram, or I read about them, and then I went to an event that they were at, and I didn’t say anything to them. I just got to know them. And, you know, I became, I guess, very extroverted as I got older. I was more introverted when I was younger, and then after gymnastics, I would say, in my 30s, I started to come into my own. And then in my 40s, now I was selling. And so I found that you have to get along with people. You have to network by just becoming their friend. You have to build relationships. That’s what business is all about. Build relationships, whether it’s with a gallery, with a collector on Instagram. You know, some people just want people to like their work and follow them, but they never comment or like. Your work, there’s a lot of people like that, so it’s got to be reciprocal. You have to build relationships. Doesn’t matter how many followers that person has. So I try to do that. I try to build relationships with some galleries. I felt like I wasn’t ready because I wanted to find my voice. Now I am. So that’s why I went with Dasha. When Lee asked me to do a solo show, I said, I’m out of inventory. I only have one painting left, and I sold most of those on my own. But I do want to be in a gallery too, because I think both can be lucrative. If I am in a gallery and I’m signed to a gallery, if I have a collector that goes to the gallery, you know, I always get the gallery 50% I don’t undercut a gallery. I think that’s wrong to do. Somebody asked me, you don’t take 50% of your price. I go, No, absolutely not. I do exactly what my gallery would do if my gal, if it wasn’t seen in my gallery, and it’s my client, and I’m not represented by a gallery, I’m just a guest artist. I can sell my work on my own. There is no contract, right? So I do give them, I start with 10% and you know, I won’t give more than you know, some galleries that have asked me, can you go 20% but I’ve had it enough so that I feel like, if I’m going to give up 50% then I’m still making money, especially if I have to ship it. So you gotta, it’s very hard to do your homework. Find the right Gallery and the right galleries that really believes in you, that wants to sell you work. Well, you know what? I think everybody’s trying to figure out the landscape and how to render that landscape for their business and and it’s all good. I totally get it. Like social media changed everything. So they’re trying to figure it out. You’re trying to figure it out. I think being with the gallery, being my mother was a business owner. I’m a business owner. You know, if I had a staff, I would want them to be loyal to me, absolutely. They absolutely have the right I’m definitely Pro Gallery, but you have to pick the right one that works for you. But there are some excellent galleries out there that have artists for a long time, and they have artists for a long time, and they always give them a solo show, and they do quite well with them, and those are the ones that you want to strive to be in. That’s the struggle of artists, whether they’re younger or older. You could be older and breaking into the business. There’s no such thing as age. Age isn’t the number. You know, you can develop work and be quite good at 80 years old. You don’t have to start on year five. It all depends on the time you put in. You have to look at me. I went on the hamster wheel, and I’m trying to catch up, and I think I’m there. I caught up to a certain extent. I wish I had 40 more years in this. Maybe I do, I don’t know, but I think you have to try all of it and see what works the best. But I think having a lot of different venues to try out is good a friend of mine. Francine Craig is a friend of mine, and, you know, she’s done AI. I don’t have any problem with that, as long as they’re not saying it, it’s a painting. You know, they should have their own venue and be able to sell their work their artists, too. But I tend to like traditional work, and she goes into auctions. And I said, Oh, really? She said, Oh, it’s a lower price point. I said, Well, maybe I could do studies that are like six by nine or eight by 10, like real, Listen Live. I put this little, small five by five inch painting in their auction because I was part of the faculty this year, and it sold, and I’ve had it for a few years now, you know, I’m like, Oh, why didn’t I think of doing that? You know? So you never know. Try everything. If that doesn’t work, try something else. Put that painting somewhere else. Maybe it’ll hit that collector base right at

Laura Arango Baier: 19:15

FASO, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrushshow.com that’s BoldBrushshow.com the FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that. Come true, and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Heather Arenas: 20:45

your relationship with your gallery is one that you nurture. And my galleries are a partner with me, like we are both going for a good common cause. They want to make money. I want to make money. And so we’re going to work together to make that happen. And I think that there are a lot of people who are like, Oh, the calories. Are trying to do me wrong, and that’s just not the case. They just, they want to help you as much as help themselves. So it’s definitely a partnership. And so we discuss, you know, whether or not they are willing to give me a collector’s name, and am I going to go around them to go sell directly to that collector? Heck no. You know, I mean, I have a understanding with my galleries that I won’t undercut them. I won’t knock the sale out from underneath of them, any collector that is connected with the gallery. I’m going to run that sale right through the gallery, so because it benefits me just as much, this is a long term relationship. So that being said, one of the things that I do is, if I know that I am going to deliver work, which the two galleries that I have right now are within driving distance, so I will drive my work to the gallery, and ahead of time, I’ll send out a newsletter that basically says I’m going to be at the gallery on this date, and I would love to meet up, come and meet me at the gallery, and we can talk about this piece, you know. And so I’ve met a few collectors that way, who either already bought my work or have been dying to see the work in person, and they met me there, and we forged a relationship together, and that in person thing is just wonderful, and I tried to do that As much as possible. Now I have collectors in England, in France, you know? I mean, I’m not going to get to meet every collector in person, but I love it when they engage with me. And so I will, sometimes, I’ll post a photo of the painting, say, sold online on one of my social media sites, and then the collector will come forth and say, Oh, it was me that bought it. And I’m like, great. This is wonderful. Then I have a conversation that I can engage with them and find out a little bit more why they like the piece, a little bit more about them. And so I’m just always open to the conversation, I guess. And to that end, I send out a newsletter once a month or more, and I try to post on my Instagram page two to three times a week. And I’m just me. I’m not nearly as polished as a lot as a lot of the people who post on Instagram and all the videos that they’re doing now I’m like, I try, I do the best that I can, but I am what I am,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:50

yeah, and honestly, the efforts that you’re putting in are definitely paying off, right? Because I love that idea of, Oh, hey guys, I’m going to be at the gallery this day, and I’d love to meet any of you who’ve collected my work. That’s that’s awesome, because, yeah, oftentimes I have met artists who are, I guess, since there’s that relationship with the gallery, right, and the gallery doesn’t always share who your collector is, you might as well just like, put your foot out there and be like, hey, you know what? I invite you guys to hang out, literally, at the place where you bought my work, or want to buy my work. And that feels a lot more safe, and I don’t know, than trying to, quote, unquote, steal those exact collectors out from the gallery. Yeah.

Heather Arenas: 24:27

Well, and I’ll work with the gallery, and they invite people to come and see me too, you know. So if they know somebody who has been interested in my work, they will specifically call them up and say, Heather’s going to be there on such and such a date, you know? And then we coordinate a time, and I get there, you know, I’m not, I’m not a flaky artist in that I do what I say I’m going to do, and I show up. That’s 90% of the game, right? It’s just show up and then do the work. So Exactly, yeah, it works out really well, though, to have. Have that kind of partnership and understanding with the gallery.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:03

You have to develop friendship. You have to have a gallery that really believes in you don’t just try to be in a gallery where you say, Please, can I get in your gallery? That’s the wrong position to go in. You need to be in places where they say, Yeah, I believe in this work, and because, if they believe in it, they’re going to sell it, because they at the end of the day, when somebody walks in the gallery, remember The Gallerist or the gallery director, those are the people that are going to speak about you. So they have to know you. They have to believe you. You have to develop a relationship. You only need one good gallery. You don’t need a 1020, of them. I mean, I know some artists have that, but really, you have to have that sincere relationship connection to the you know, sometimes the galleries don’t share who the collectors that bought it. Sometimes they do. That depends on the relationship and how that goes. But if you do have a collector that buys from you straight up direct, because I sell things on Instagram or, you know, through my website, or if somebody comes around and says, I bought this from the gallery, always make sure that you send out some sort of Thank you, and that’s really a good thing, like thank you for supporting me and my famp. We send out a note, like a card, and it says, Thank you for supporting me and my fam, my journey, my family, this and that. People have to know how much that means that, you know, you invested in me and gave me I used to make a joke, but I and people would think I’m really seriously. Say, yeah, if I don’t sell pain this month, my my wife said I can’t paint anymore, really. Oh, my god, yeah, so I need to sell, you know. But aside from all the joking, yes, you’re supporting somebody’s journey, you know. And you know, back in the day, if you read the old art books, they would have like, what you call a sponsor, like somebody sponsoring you to be an artist. Well, yeah, artists need to make money like everybody else. So when you find those people that do support, you, let them know. You know how much that means. Just a little note to them or something to keep them in the loop. I’m not that great on my website for doing the newsletters, but I when I just finished a workshop in Belgium. The artists really said, I said, I don’t want to bug people all the time with a newsletter this and that. Say, well, even if you do it four times a year, so I’m actually going to do that based on the feedback I got from this workshop. I’m going to try to do a newsletter every quarter, at least, because I think I didn’t realize that they were telling me they want to hear what I’m doing. So I’m like, okay, yeah, I’m going to do it. We’re going to do it. Yeah? So there’s a goal right there that I’m going to do that I haven’t been doing. You know, make adjustments everything we’re talking about. You hear something, hey, that’s to your advantage. If people are giving you feedback and it’s positive, you have to do something right first.

Kim Casebeer: 28:29

I think it’s very important to show up. So if there is an exhibit, if you are part of an exhibit at a gallery or an art center, or really any place you should you should show up. You should be there, especially during the opening, for sure, and perhaps other times too, I have had situations where the gallery, this is more local my Kansas City Gallery, that’s not very far away, so it’s easier for me to get to it’s a few hours where we’ve had an opening and I’m there. And then we also do, maybe another day, the next day, do a like a demo day, a more relaxed day where we’re demoing and and the idea is, is that we can talk more one on one with people, because it’s not quite as busy, it’s not quite as crowded as the opening night was. And then I’ve had situations where perhaps we try a an ending Reception The show is getting ready, because most of the shows are two, three months long, and then you have an ending reception where people can reconnect with you. And so I think you have to, you have to go to those and and connect, connect with your collectors. Yeah, I think that’s very important, but they also collectors will also connect with you in other ways. And one way I do that is with newsletters. So I have, I actually have two newsletters. One is. I would call it a general newsletter. So it has the show information, but it also has workshop information, classes, all those types of things. So a lot of artists subscribe to that newsletter. And then I have a second newsletter that is dedicated to collectors. And at least mine is, it’s a little smaller, but it is, I would say it’s just as important. And it only talks about the shows that are coming up or or maybe a photo of what’s on my easel at at this moment, those types of things that a collector is going to really be invested in.

Scott Ruthven: 30:40

And then, if you don’t mind, I always like to ask people, How did you find me? Whether it’s a collector, I asked you this when you reached out to me, right? And it’s, it fascinates me. The and I an example I just give is a recent I just picked up some commission for multiple paintings, right? And it’s people that just live an hour away from me, but they found my work when they were visiting their son in California at a gallery in a show that I’m in. So, you know, I’m just a local guy for them, really, and but they saw my painting in person, and they like it. And they said, Hey, this is a Colorado guy. They looked me up. They signed up for my email, and now I’ve got some business from them. So you never know. It just such a great and the YouTube channel I started because I was getting more requests to teach workshops. I do teach plein air workshops, but they take a lot of time, and I’m teaching eight or 10 people, because I don’t like to have a huge crowd. I think I really want to have that individual attention that I give to my students. But there’s only one of me, and the time is just, you know, I can’t the trade off in time is too much. So I started the YouTube channel as a way to just kind of do some live streams and that type of thing and and try to share how I paint. And then that became a community of people that tune in for those and the followership grew. I did monetize eventually, although I’m not gonna, you know, it’s like, it’d be my full time job, because it’s that’s not what I want to do. But I like to teach. I like to share. And so that’s a community of its own. I’ve sold work to that community. But you know, really, I try to, I try to give more than you know, a trick I would pass along is to nurture your community. Your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give? How can you, you know, and giving might just be taking an interest in their life, sending them a nice note, remembering a birthdays, texting them. I mean, I’m on with I text with my collectors. I’m sure a lot of the you know artists do as well, but that’s a great thing to do, because it doesn’t really take anything. Everybody texts today. It’s an easy thing. If you know somebody’s birthday, text them a happy birthday, and so, you know, seek to give some value, rather than always just pulling value out of your audience, whether it’s YouTube or your email list, your your galleries, that kind of thing. Because this emotional bank concept, if you’ve heard of it, you know, you can’t, you can’t keep making withdrawals out of your bank account without putting deposits in. So, you know, I seek to make more deposits than withdrawals.

David Griffin: 33:28

The other purpose is, is giving me a chance to connect in a different way with collectors. Galleries are important, and they have been important to me, but they don’t offer the opportunity to meet and speak on an extended period of time with someone that’s interested in buying your work. Most of it’s done remotely. I’m not there when it happens. Shows are different matter. You can actually speak to, you know, an exhibit at a museum show or at the Coors show. You can actually speak to the people why they’re interested. What, what, what stopped them, what connected? And that’s what I really want to spend also in this art of wandering journey is hopefully being able to connect with new collectors and and establish a relationship, create an opportunity for for the collector to be part of the process of what I’m doing. Not that they would tell me what to do, but I want to know what. I want to know what, what made them aware of what I’m doing, what made them if it stopped them, fine, if it angered them, if it made them happy, if it brought them some peace. I need to know about all that, and the only way I can know about that is having a conversation, or some sort of dialog with them. So that’s the other part of this process. Journey is I want to, I want to open up that avenue of you. Of connecting on a deeper level with the collector or the interested parties. It’s just going to help me better. It’s going to help me communicate better. It’s going to be helped me to be a better artist. It’ll probably help me be a better person. I’ll find out. You know, what it is that I’m doing, if it makes any sense at all to anybody, if it matters. So those are the things that I think are on my mind today and will be for a while. And isn’t it wonderful for me? Isn’t this such a blessing for me to be able to because you’re the first one, you are the initial platform that I’ve been able to that I’ve been given opportunity to announce this new endeavor. So I’m grateful to you for the timing and for the opportunity to talk about what’s on my heart today. So thank you Laura and and BoldBrush and and Faso and all the other thing, all this, this umbrella of wonderful creative people that have given me the opportunity to show my work in such a wonderful fashion. So that’s it continues to be a cool collaboration from my end of the stick, or my end of the bargain of surrounding myself with people that that allow me to be better at what I’m doing.

Miriam Schulman: 36:30

So Instagram tends to be a little bit more confessional. I wouldn’t be as confessional on LinkedIn as maybe Instagram is, but much of the content you’ve posted in the past on those other platforms are it’s exactly the same thing. They like, videos, pictures of your art in progress, your values, pictures of you working your studio pet, all those things. Of course, you don’t have a studio pet, maybe your studio goldfish, I don’t know, yes, yes, all those things behind the scenes content, but you want to make it behind the scenes content that’s interesting to collectors, not other artists. So not, Oh, I couldn’t decide whether to use Payne’s gray or whatever, and this is how I saved my painting. That’s something artists care about. Behind the scenes content for collectors, it’s a different flavor so they want It’s like the difference between knowing how the sausages are made, that’s what artists care about, versus what’s the speech that the waiter gives when he’s telling you the specials that’s like what a collector wants. It’s like the magic,

Kim Lordier: 37:50

I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of. I think, like a lot of us throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium, we have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows. So my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base. And that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know, my friends, people that are who may be listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s your way, and It’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we, kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work. You. Again, remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important. But I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:24

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For today’s episode, some of our past guests share the creative “aha” moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to “find a style.” They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts—reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing—as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Episodes mentioned on this episode:

• 62 Aaron Schuerr

• 77 Aaron Westerberg

• 79 William Schneider

• 118 Shuang Li

• 129 Brian Bateman

• 137 Chris Krupinski

• 139 Jeff Legg

• 144 Christine Code

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up.

Aaron Schuerr: 0:07

So that was like a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project.

Chris Krupinski: 0:13

But later, when I found this, was like, this is the hugest aha moment.

Christine Code: 0:19

That was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:25

Now, before I announce our episode for today, there are some updates about the podcast that I need to inform our listeners about. The podcast. Name will change from the BoldBrush show to the FASO podcast. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush Over the years, we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes confusion for most people, so to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO. Now on to the show. Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a boldbrush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, some of our past guests share their creative aha moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to find a style. They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts, reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Aaron Schuerr: 1:52

Well, like I said before, the newsletter is one of the key, key areas. And then I can add to that a couple of occasionally I’ll do just fun projects. And these really started during the pandemic, you know, because everything was all the galleries were closing, and I thought it was going to be like 2008 all over again, you know, where, you know, galleries are closed, shows are closed, all my workshops are canceled. What am I going to do? And so I started off, I just did a video sale and market it first to the news newsletter subscribers. And that did well, because I was just thinking about, like, let’s put together some projects that just get me through, if I can just get through a month, you know, keep us from getting kicked out of our house or whatever. And then I did. I called it a plein air marathon. And so that one, I did a painting a day, or every week day. I took the weekends off, eight by 10, and until I got to 26 paintings. And so I would go out in the morning and do the painting come back, and then I’d write something up, the newsletter and and that was something where it was just the newsletter subscribers had the first chance of buying it. So I saw them all unframed at that point. I mean, I sold them all for $400 each, which is way under retail, but they’re just unframed, you know, on the spot paintings. But each one, you know, I have a little story with it about what happened that day. And then what I could do is, then I put on Instagram and Facebook. Hey, this is the painting I did. It sold. But if you want to have a crack at the next one, you got to sign up for my newsletter. And so that kind of brought people to the newsletter. And again, I like when I started this project that well, one, it’ll get me out painting will be a good discipline. It’ll get me out painting every day, and then two that, if I just sell a handful of them, you know, get through another month, and I ended up selling all of them. And I ended up having to I did some extras, because there were people that were like, Hey, I tried three times or four times to get one of your paintings, and someone was always there first. So I was like, All right, I’ll do, you know, I’ll do another one for you. So that was, like, a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project, one that I’m just about to do, that I’ve done the last three years. I call it the 12 paintings of Christmas. And it’s six by eight, six by eight or eight by eight paintings. I’ll start December 1, go through December 12. And they’re so they’re little ones, and I frame them because I figure it’s Christmas, so then it’d be nice for people out frame there. I. Nicely framed, but they’re, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re at a price that’s lower than than my normal retail so I’m really careful, though, about like with projects like that, where something is less than, you know, it’s less than a gallery price, that it is a specific project, you know, like the this is, I did the plein air marathon. I ended up only doing it once, and keep meaning to do it again. But this is for this specific project, so it’s different than my other work. I think that’s important, because, one, you don’t want to start undervaluing your work by, you know, seeming like you’re desperate and and then also to have the good relationships with the galleries, because if a gallery finds out like, Wait, you’re selling stuff out of your studio for half the price. No, I’m doing, you know, I’m doing a project that’s very different. I don’t I’m not putting six by eight paintings in galleries, and it’s the set project. So for me, I the nice surprise with those projects is that they were good from a marketing standpoint, but they’re also really good from an artistic standpoint, like the 12 paintings the Christmas helps me plan what studio paintings I want to do in the next year, because I get, you know, I try them out in this small format, and there’s a few of them that I’m like, ooh, that’s an idea I want to go back to. So it’s a nice transition sometimes, between plein air and planning studio paintings. So it helps me out that way. But yeah, finding fun projects like that and making them, I think making them exclusive for like, Hey, this is going out to the you’re you’re a newsletter subscriber. That means you, you’ve chosen to follow what I’m doing, so I want to reward that with, you know, a project like this,

Aaron Westerberg: 7:09

Yeah, no, it was slow. It was over a few years, for sure, because I didn’t know what I was doing, you know, I didn’t know what I was doing. I was just, I just wanted to be a fine artist. I wanted to be a gallery artist, you know. And so I was like, What do I have to do to, you know, to do this? And I just wanted everything to culminate to where it would help facilitate that, you know. So working at borders didn’t really facilitate that, you know, too much, you know. So as soon as I cut that out, I did, but, but, yeah, you know, you know, I think some of when you teach, like, you know, a lot of times I would get, you know, because my drawings were, they were, they’re pretty decent drawings when I was teaching, because I would teach life drawing, and a lot of times I would get people to take my class, and they would see me, and, you know, I was like, you know, 20 something years old, and like, Oh, you’re just a kid, you know, like, I thought you’d be like, an old man or something. And, and I’m like, I think, but some of the best teachers are the ones that are, you know, just kind of learning. And, you know, can do the things, but everything is kind of new and fresh to them. They’re not like, crusted over and, you know, they can actually express the ideas that maybe someone will just be like you just got to go through a million drawings to figure it out. So, you know, draw teaching. I think almost anyone can do that, you know, early on, you know, I think that’s a really good way to start and, you know, it, it doubles down on what you know. You’re teaching somebody you know what you know, and so you have to vocalize it and basically explain it to somebody who has no clue. And it’s also good, I have some good teaching stories, because I’ve taught for a long time, and I’ve taught some, I mean, I taught a guy, I’m positive he was in the witness look relocation program. I mean, I’m positive, you know, this guy was, like, total sopranos guy, and he had a pinky ring that was, like as big as my thumb on his pinky, and you could just smash me in any time, if you want to. He was humongous. But, yeah, I just so teaching is it’s interesting, it’s fun. But you learn more. You get better at your craft by teaching. So I think that is, is a great way to supplement your income. And then, like, the thing I want to say with social media is, you know, it’s, it’s easy to get bogged down in it and just kind of be negative towards it, but it’s like a great opportunity for artists right now. I know tons of artists, and I’m sure most of the viewers do also that just sell, you know, directly or through their Instagram or whatever. They don’t have a gallery, you know, and I. And it’s, it’s also, you know, I think we all have a degree of creativity, and you just have to kind of put it into the into your posts, you know, you, you know, like a lot of people, do the same things over and over, like varnishing the paintings or whatever. I mean, I do that, but, you know, but you just be creative with it, you know, when I when I first got that, like, Aha moment when I and I didn’t get it, the aha moment until after it happened. But what I did is, for that studio sale, I laid out a whole bunch of paintings on my studio floor, and I took a picture of it, and I’m like, I’m gonna have a studio sale, and this, all these are going to be here, and frames and all kinds of stuff. And then people started emailing me that picture back and circling the paintings, like, how much is this one? How much? Like a lot of people, and I’m like, Oh, wow, this is really. This really works, you know, just just kind of organic. I’m not trying to sell individual painting. I’m just kind of showing them what I’m doing, and it worked great. Like I said, I sold almost everything before the actual opening of the studio, sale the physical opening. So I think it’s just a matter of putting your creativity into the marketing side of your paintings, and it can be anything, you know, it can be anything. There’s tons of ways to do it, you know, stuff that’s not been done yet, stuff that’s been done with your own little twist on it. It can be anything, but it’s, you know, when you sell your stuff yourself, you don’t have to give a percentage to the gallery. You know, it’s, it’s very nice. It’s very nice. And you know that, like a lot of galleries, don’t share information, like, who bought your painting, so, so, you know, you get, you develop a relationship with that person. And a lot of times those relationships last years, right? They continue to purchase from you. So you know, it’s, it’s good. And you I mean, I, like no one who has my paintings, you know, I enjoy that a lot. And they send you a picture of it on their wall or whatever. It’s so gratifying, you know, so, so, yeah, that is, that’s a really good side of kind of social media and being able to market yourself and be, you know, be a living artist today.

William Schneider: 12:27

Don’t try to find your own voice. And I’d say that because that is one of the pieces of advice that was passed on to me by Bill parks, and he was 100% right. I think that if you just study, become curious about the world, curious about everything. You will gravitate towards certain themes, certain ideas, certain ways of expressing things, style or voice. I think is nothing more than people’s habitual mistakes. In other words, if somebody Okay, Modigliani making these elongate or El Greco making these elongated figures, maybe he had an issue with proportion, but it became a style, you know, and because in art we you cannot paint what we see. What we see is light, light rays hitting the object, bouncing off the object, going into our retina, being projected upside down on nerve endings and our eyeballs in the back of them and going into the brain and being interpreted as as whatever. But in that process, every step of it, you’re losing information, and so the information is filtered through our own verbal constructs and prejudices. I mean, human beings, including artists, talk to themselves incessantly without we never shut up, you know. And so the internal dialog, we can either try to harness it and use it, or we can fall victim to it. And what I mean by that is, you know, a lot of my students, you know, will express their internal dialog. They’ll make it external. And it’s kind of, oh, I started too late. I’ll never be any good. I just don’t get this temperature business. I don’t understand this. Maybe I should take up, go off. I was better at golf, but not really that good. I was like, a 19 handicap, but, and they’re doing saying all of these things, a useful dialog would be, okay, I don’t like this. What don’t I like? Is it too light? Is it too dark? Is it too warm? Is. It too cool, is it too sharp? Is it too soft? Is it too green, or is it too gray? You know, if you ask yourself sort of these paired questions, then you can come up with useful answers. And to circle back to style, Bill parks told me, do not try to find your own style. And then in my own research, I ran across a little, I don’t remember, the excerpt from a letter or somebody recording advice you received from Sargent. John Singer, Sargent about, you know, I want to become a great portrait artist. And Sargent told him, No, don’t try to become a great portrait artist, try to become a great artist, and then you can do portraits. And that’s what Sargent Did you know obvious by his body of work throughout time. And you know, so if you just try to be a great artist, you try to be the best that you can be at the things that interest you, eventually your style will will find you. Yeah, I don’t think I have a style particularly, but then I’ve had people say, oh, you know, I could I recognized your painting right off the bat, really, you know? But it’s, I’m just trying to be honest to the scene that’s in front of me as filtered through my own internal movie, you know, generally, like the anecdote I told you about the persecuted woman. If my best paintings are paintings where it’s not model Sitting in Chair. It’s Romeo sitting at at her mirror, pining from her lost look. It’s, it’s like a movie. And so then I started, start illustrating that movie. It’s that internal dialog, and that’s what I circle back to, that people you’re going to talk to yourself anyway might as well say something that’s useful.

Chris Krupinski: 17:01

Yeah, I actually think I didn’t know what or how powerful the value, the value pattern, or the value scale, should be in the painting for quite a long time. So I always wondered why my painting doesn’t really look right or look good. I also blame you know my color wasn’t right or the detail. I didn’t really know this how to paint this little thing, etc. But later, when I found this like this is the hugest aha moment, you would say, oh, that’s because my value is wrong. Sometimes the process the word saying the value does all the work, but the color gets all the credit. We all know that right? How, how I actually find out and helped myself to improve on the awareness of values is you could simply turn your painting into black white, then instantly you will know, and you compare to the pros or the paintings you admire, you do the same thing, you know, take a photo of that painting. Compare these two, black and white, instantly you will know, oh, that’s why the other painting is so good or so powerful. You know, it’s because the value is correct. Even like the piece as Impressionism. Piece colors everywhere. You couldn’t really realize it. But when you turn it into the black, white. You will see it

Laura Arango Baier: 18:43

at FASO. We inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s boldbrushshow.com. The FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career, thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist’s website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seeing. The right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Brian Bateman: 20:14

I will go back and review perspective. I will go back and review my basic drawing skills. Teaching helps me to go back to those basic drawing skills. So I would recommend, you know, I’d recommend teaching too, because for those of you who have taught, that really, really helps you get back to core basics. Because you’re you’re trying to teach that again to your students, and in teaching that to your students, you’re re teaching that to yourself. And then you’re also learning to communicate, which sometimes my wife says, I have a problem doing. So if you learn to communicate better and get it across to do the student, and you have that aha moment, or they have that aha moment. It makes you feel good you’ve gotten, you’ve got across to them, and that that’s very cool. But back to the core. That helps with the core, at least for me to revisit that

Chris Krupinski: 21:21

I paint every single day. Back when I decided it was going to be important to me to to be a professional artist, I made a commitment to myself, and this is when I still had kids at home, I made a commitment to myself that I would paint at the minimum of two hours a day, no matter what. So Christmas Eve would find me wrapping gifts and then pulling my paints out for two hours. Because I I am 100% sure that the only way you are going to get better is to put the time in. And I so no, aha. Moment happens. It’s like watching your kids grow. Never once did I ever say aha, they grew two inches, because you don’t see that unless you look back, and it just grows slowly and it progresses to where you’re going. And I so no, but when I do look back, I do see tremendous changes, you know, and growth and and whatever. And I just attribute that to time being put in. And so the more time you put in, you it will slowly, it will slowly change and hopefully go to the better.

Jeff Legg: 22:57

Well, let’s see. I wrote down some things that I think might help. Yeah, I guess probably the biggest thing was that, realizing that you can’t really copy color. I mean, color is very relative. It looks, you know, one color looks different next to another color next to another color, and the color is so relative, you could paint anything in any color, and it would as long as the value relationships were were good and correct, that the color doesn’t matter. So I don’t get real hung up on trying to reproduce an exact color. In fact, I will push colors where I want them to be. I mean, after all, we’re dealing with paint, and you can only do so much with paint. Sometimes you have to exaggerate things just to get across the emphasis of a certain color that you want to focus on. So, you know, I put a lot more, a lot more practice into value, you know, relationships, because that’s really the most important thing. So that was a, that was a pretty big thing to realize I didn’t have to be, you know, I’m not a I’m not a camera, you know, I’m not even trying to be a camera. I’m trying to, you know, paint something that looks I want to paint whatever I’m painting to be more than what it is, you know, it’s be more. Even what a camera would capture. So that means taking some liberties, which is a good was a really good segue to one thing that’s I’ve done for about the past 15 years or so is I paint quite often. A lot of it’s from imagination, or a combination of, you know what I’m looking at and my imagination. So I find a lot of freedom in doing work from memory, imagination. And I really, really recommend highly that people work from memory. Is you know more than they do you know. Working from your memory or your imagination, that’s sort of the same thing you are forced to you’re you’re going to force yourself to find out what you really know. Because what you really know is you know should be able to come out as a memory or as your imagination. And the more you practice and exercise your imagination, I think the better artists will be we’re, you know, as a child, our imaginations are much more pliable, and I think we use it more often. And as we get older, we sort of, you know, lose our childlike ability in that way. So I try to practice that. I’ve done a lot of paintings. Still I totally from made up, and you would never know. It shouldn’t matter. I mean, really, in some ways, those paintings are maybe more truthful than trying to, you know, exactly copy what I’m looking at, because they’re, they’re from me, you know, they’re not locked into just, you know, what I’m looking at. You’re kind of an expression. Then the another thing, as far as technique, that was a discovery that has helped me a lot is I’m in love with surface texture. I a painting isn’t a painting unless it has beautiful surface texture, you know. So in my that’s just my opinion, but I like to build up textures and patina and glazes and using regular oil paint, oil paint, even if you add mediums that you know to help speed the drying, they still it takes a day or several days to really be thoroughly dry, if not months, and you certainly can’t really glaze a painting that’s not thoroughly dry. So I discovered alkaline oils, which was a fast drawing oil paint. And depending on the humidity level and and the thickness of the paint, everything, it’ll dry, you know, anywhere from it’ll be pretty darn dry in two or three hours or or overnight for sure, three or four days it’s it’s completely cured out. So that has helped me speed up my process a lot. Then the cool thing about alkids too, is they they all dry at the same speed. They can be mixed into regular oils. You can start a painting with alkyd and end it with regular oils. Or you can do the whole thing with alkid. It’s just a beautiful for me. It’s a beautiful balance, because I can, I would say I would speed up my process by weeks by using alkids, at least in the beginning stages. If not, you know, the entire painting. These paintings are all out, good. Uh, and it is, it’s, don’t misunderstand, it is an oil paint. It’s just a fast drying oil paint. It’s not acrylic. Acrylic dries too fast for me, and it doesn’t have the same feel as oil paint. So anyway, yeah, the using alkaline oils is, I know it’s unconventional. There’s not a lot of artists that really do that, but that’s been a big thing for me. I can, you know, I can do a painting, you know, average size, still life, you. Do all the glazing, everything I want to do to make it that surface quality, the texture and everything. Let that dry, say, a week, and then it’s dry enough to varnish, you know, get it framed and send it, send it off to a gallery. Whereas, if I were using regular oils, I might have, you know, that might be more like a three month process, if not longer, I would say, like I said, I’ve always take a commission work, and commissions kind of drag you down, especially if the client is really prescriptive about what they want. And of course, now that I’m showing in all of these galleries and selling, you know, the work that does come from my heart, I can be a little bit more picky and choosy on the Commission’s I accept. But recently I just commissions just are pressure, no matter what. By recently devised a system that helps alleviate some of that pressure. So let’s say a client asked me for you know, they say, Oh, I love your sunsets with the peachy tones, but I need a 40 by 40. I will say, Okay, I’m going to paint you two or 340 by 40s with the peachy tones for you to choose from. And that has been really great for all of us. It takes the pressure off me to get it right in that one shot. It takes the pressure off the client to be stuck with one, the one and only painting you do for them. It takes, you know, they have choices now. I mean, what’s better than that? And also, whatever gallery this commission is through, I’m getting them all three paintings, and the client picks one, and the gallery has more stock it can hang the other two on the wall and sell them. So it’s a win, win for everybody. And you know what, once in a while, the client will say, Well, you know what, I have room for two. So they actually take two. So the you know, that’s just a bonus. So that’s how I’ve been, how I’ve been dealing with commissions lately. And it’s it’s been working out really well. It really takes the pressure off, off everybody. Um, because the more parameters a client puts around a painting, the less free I am able to make those choices. And sometimes it just ends up in a jumbled mess because their vision doesn’t match my vision, and I can’t take the painting to where, you know, I want to put out my best work. So if I offer three options that way, I can make my three best paintings with the peachy sunset colors and, and they have the choice. And, oh, and yes. So if you are showing in a gallery, just a piece of advice, and you get a random email and somebody asked for a commission. Always ask that collector if they found your work in in a gallery, or did they just find you through a random internet search? How they found you? Because if they saw your work in the gallery, first, you should run that commission through the gallery, it’s just good business. It establishes trust with your gallery, and it just builds that good business relationship with your gallery, so you should always honor that. But yeah, anyways, that’s that was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions. Now, you know, it takes a little bit longer, but the galleries are always wanting work, so it kind of kills two birds with one stone, and it’s that it’s been great that way.

Kim Lordier: 33:29

So I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realized that it’s really truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. You know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like knock on wood. You know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happened to my beautiful space that I love to be in. I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know, and I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be. Able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody. Or, you know, that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here. But it’s just that I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand, and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends, and there was just nothing greater than that for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:34

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials (acrylic vs. oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture paste) and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile, artifact-like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative, experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction, and rescue, and how embracing “happy accidents” and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration, and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career—balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups, and building relationships that lead to gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community, and actively create their own opportunities, and also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram.

Nancy’s FASO site:
nancycrandallphillips.com

Nancy’s Social Media:
instagram.com/nancycrandallphillips

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Transcript:

Nancy Phillips: 0:00

You develop a very thick skin, yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen, you know. I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting. And you know you, you have to let go of your expectations and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening, that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:34

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials, acrylic versus oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture, paste and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile artifact like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction and rescue and how embracing happy accidents and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career, balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups and building relationships that lead to Gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community and actively create their own opportunities. And also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram. For those of you who are watching the video version of the episode. We wanted to let you know the video quality of this episode on our end is not the best for that. We apologize, though this does not affect the quality of the conversation. Welcome Nancy to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Nancy Phillips: 2:34

Thank you. I’m well. Thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Of course, yeah, I’m so excited to have you, because you are actually our second abstract artist to have on the show. And I’m very much enjoying talking to abstract artists, because there are so many aspects of painting in realism that benefits so so so much from the abstract thought and the experimental side. That happens much more frequently with abstract than with realism. So I’m excited to pick your brain, and I love also your pieces. They’re so, so beautiful. I love especially all your blue pieces with the gold. You’re welcome. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Nancy Phillips: 3:23

Well, I’m Nancy Crandall Phillips and I do currently, I do abstract mixed media work. I do a lot of little tiny pieces, and I do very large pieces, and I’ve been doing that for working in that way for about 10 years or so, using the same materials over the last 10 years, but it’s been a long evolution since I got started. I started out doing ceramics. When I was in high school, did a lot of ceramics. In high school, went to college, thought I was going to do pottery, and switched to fiber and fabric design, where I did a lot of mixed media, or I did a lot of soft sculpture work and weaving and print making and that type of thing. Then got out of college, worked in a bank for a little while, which I’ll circle back to, but then ended up working in the interior design industry for about 10 years, but always taking night classes in more ceramics, printmaking, drawing, that kind of thing. Then finally, after about 10 years, decided I really needed to make a change and go back to graduate school. And if I was going to go to graduate school, I was going to do something I loved. So I ended up. Uh, going to art school and still taking night classes at a really great art school, and doing my master’s degree at Cal State Northridge, which was much less expensive than a professional art school, but over that amount of time, got a lot of instruction in the materials that you use. I mean that what intrigued me all along was, well, when I first, let me backtrack a little bit, when I was in college, there was a presentation put on, incidentally, by a sales rep from Grumbacher who explained a lot about the chemistry of paints, and acrylic paints versus oil paints, and you know the differences in how they’re made and and talking about how the chemistry of it all. And you know what you can combine, what you can’t combine? You know, you can put oil on top of acrylic, but not acrylic on top of oil, and acrylic is essentially plastic, and that was a revelation to me. So anyway, fast forward through my early 20s, and I finished graduate school, married my husband, who’s a realist oil painter, and and started layering these things together. And eventually I I started working consistently on canvas and but I was always my let me backtrack a little bit one of my most instructive classes I took when I was beginning in college, taking art classes was about composition, and it was given by an advertising a former advertising executive guy and he and so the whole class was about composition and and how what your eye does with different elements in a comp, in a composition, and talking about how if you have a piece that touches the edge, your eye will immediately go there first. But even more exciting that then that is something that almost touches the edge, and the tension that that, that there’s tension there that you that will grab your attention anyway. So through that, I I have always paid a lot of attention to the edges of things, and I loved Canvas, you know, painting on stretched canvas, but the edge of the stretch canvas bugged me because it was so boring, you know, just Canvas wrapped over stretcher bars. So I started tearing my canvas. I would actually buy painters Canvas wash it in the washing machine because and I would rip it and then wash it in the washing machine so that they had the frayed edges, and so that it wasn’t completely flat. And then I would stretch it on a board and staple it with staple gun, so that it was stretched but uneven along the edges, almost like a carcass, like a skin of a of an animal, you know? And because, in the end, I was interested in my pieces looking like old leather and sort of like artifacts. So I worked that way for quite a while. And so I would work, I would take a piece of canvas, stretch it when it was wet, then it would dry and shrink back. Then I would paint on it and layer. I started collecting papers. I made paper for a while myself too, a little bit. And so I have, I have flat files full of a collection of rice papers and tissue papers. And every time I went to art supply stores, I was buying, you know, exotic papers of all kinds, and layering those on top of the canvas, because and sometimes painting them and layering them down. And when you when you layer them with acrylic medium. The paper itself often disappears, depending on what kind of paper it is and that, and then layering paint on top of that, especially watered down paint, so that it sort of decomposes and settles in all those little crevices. Is, and you can see the little you know, particles of pigment in there is always works for me. So I work like that for a long time. And then would would have, when the paintings were done, I would take them off the the plywood and stretch them over a stretched canvas, so that the edges overhang the stretched canvas, so that they would hang on the wall like they were floating, like a floating piece of canvas or animal skin or whatever, which was fun and lovely but impractical in the real world. And so, you know, you’re always worrying about the edges, and especially if there were paper overhanging the edges, which was which really floated my boat, those get wrecked pretty easily. So finally, I decided this is ridiculous. I need to do something that’s a little more practical in the real world, and that galleries wouldn’t be intimidated by handling, and that wouldn’t get damaged in shipping. So I started buying cradle panels and and then I discovered texture paste, which is a lot like clay. And so I started working the way I work now, which is smearing texture paste all over a cradle panel, then taking canvas and or paper, and then mushing that down on top of the wet texture paste so that it sort of oozes out the sides like clay. And that gives you all kinds of opportunities to embed all kinds of other stuff in there too. So, so that’s the way I’ve been working for the last 20 years or so, and slowly accumulating more stuff to embed in there. And somewhere along the way there, my husband started making the cradle panels and started doing a lot of framing himself. So we were making a lot of frames, and I was doing the gold leafing on the frames, which found its way into my work, because gold leaf is so fun, so and then other things started, you know, sticks. And we, we eventually, about 20 years ago, we moved from LA out to Northern California, out in the country, where we have a lot of Manzanita up here. And so there’s a lot of sticks around that are very intriguing, and so I started attaching those on and, you know, using wire and, you know, pieces of metal and just stuff that is hanging around. Then, about eight years ago or so, we were both in a art auction event up here at the Crocker Museum, and where everyone had big pieces they were auctioning off, but also little tiny pieces that they were donating for an a smaller live auction. And I saw a little piece there with gold leaf in it and other stuff that was just lovely. And met the artist, who was an encaustic artist, and she said, Oh, you know. I said, Oh, tell me, you know, you can embed gold leaf and encaustic. And she goes, Oh, yeah, you should really check this out. So I joined her encaustic group and went over to her studio a number of times. And so she’s my friend now. And so I started layering encaustic on top and and embedding things in that, and working with the the three dimensionality of wax on top of other papers and embedded stuff. And really, really having a lot of fun exploring wax when it’s translucent and when it’s opaque and and how incredibly frustrating it is to try to make it do what you want to do, and working out Ways to work with it in spite of its inability to let you control it. So anyway, that’s sort of brings you to how I’m working now,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:55

yes, and it’s fascinating, because. It feels like, you know, it’s a very experimental, like I mentioned earlier, iterative process where you come across one medium and you’re like, Huh, I’m going to try that out. And then you come across another medium and you blend them, and then it continues to kind of like become a bit of like a step ladder situation, or,

Unknown: 15:20

like, exactly that

Laura Arango Baier: 15:23

adding stuff. And I really, really love how the I feel, like, the very common sort of thread that I’ve noticed is you mentioned, like, how you wanted your canvas with, like, old leather. And of course, you were in the fiber arts, which, you know, natural materials, type of thing, and then jumping on over into like encaustic and like paper, and how both of those materials are very translucent, and playing with the, you know, Hide and Seek sort of aspects of like layering, which I really love, too. It makes me very curious about encaustic too, because it’s such an ancient technique as well. It’s something that’s been used throughout humanity for such a long time. Such a long time. Yes, I love love that so much. But yeah, and what you mentioned about encaustic being like such a difficult medium to use, I think the last time we spoke, I said that kind of sounds like watercolor. So it, from how you’ve described it, too, it sounds like it’s harder in that aspect as well.

Unknown: 16:27

It is. There’s less

Nancy Phillips: 16:30

in some in some ways it is because I’m, I’m into all the layering aspects of stuff, but there’s very few things you can layer on top of encaustic. So it’s, it’s limiting in that way. And, I mean, you can’t really put oil paint on top of encaustic. You certainly can’t put acrylic. It won’t, won’t stick. And part of working with encaustic is, I mean, you’re, you’re, when you’re, you’re painting with melted wax, and then you take a heat gun and have to seal it to the layer underneath, or it will pop off. So you’re working flat with melted wax, with a heat gun, and a heat gun, you know, pushes air out, so it’s, it makes it all move, which is annoying, unless it moves in a way you appreciate. So you learn to work with that too. But anyway, it’s very I find it, I don’t know, evocative and satisfying and infuriating all at the same time.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:45

That’s what’s that’s what’s fun about it, right? It’s, I think it wouldn’t be quite as fun if it wasn’t so challenging. You know? Yeah, I think there’s a very healthy amount of resilience, of course, that one has to, have to work with challenging mediums, but if you really enjoy it and you enjoy the challenge, then it’s totally worth it. And it’s funny, because I was just discussing that with with a friend, where if it’s too hard, you won’t want to do it, yeah, and if it’s too easy, you don’t want to do it. You need to have that like level of discomfort that makes it feel like achievable, so that it feels satisfying, and then you want to do it again. Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna also mention how the way you’re describing the process, too. I’m curious to know, what is your favorite part of the process that you’ve developed over time? I Huh?

Nancy Phillips: 18:45

Well, I I love starting out because all things seem possible. And usually I start out with a plan that that works for about, you know, an hour and a half and then, and then, something doesn’t go according to plan, but in a in a good way. So I find that I I, I make a lot of adjustments along the way, and feel free to change my mind, which you have to if you’re going to do this kind of thing. But starting out is a lot of fun, and usually I get to a point about a third of the way, and I work, let me backtrack a little bit. I work in in layers of things that that at the beginning, at least have to dry for periods of time. So I’ll work for a couple hours on a piece, and then have to go away and come back the next day and do some more. So it’s so it takes me a week or two at least of consistent work to get to a point where. I feel like I’m finished on a piece, and sometimes even longer. So they’re waiting periods when, when things are drying and changing. And, you know, acrylic paint, I I start out with with acrylics which change color as they dry, and I’m a lot of water down acrylics that that move around as they dry and pool in different places in different colors. Work. You know, there’s a big difference between, you know, phthalo blue and ultramarine blue in what they do to each other, what they do to the layers underneath, how they dry, how they pool, all that kind of stuff. So so usually things go along pretty well for the first couple days, and then they all fall apart and and then I go through a period of trying to figure out how I’m going to rescue this stupid thing that’s driving me crazy. And I assume I’m not supposed to swear on these things.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:08

Oh, you can, it’s all good if. Anyway, I totally agree.

Nancy Phillips: 21:15

So anyway, usually there’s sort of a long period in the middle there where I’m trying to rescue it and, and that’s, it’s always gratifying when something happens where you think, oh, you know, this is great. It might actually survive after all. So that’s always a fun part. And usually I’m, I’m doing more experimenting, in the end, with little, you know, tweaking of the converts of the composition. You know, the way, if you’re, you know, if you’re an oil painter, you’re really hitting those highlights that really sort of pull it all together. You do that, and I do that in abstract work as well. And, you know, trying to decide at the end, you know, well, am I going to do wax on this part. Am I going to try to, you know, am I going to throw some gold leaf in there, or some other metallic something? Or lately, or for the last several years, I discovered pigment sticks that you can use on top of encaustic, but you have to care, be careful then, about what you do on top of the pigment sticks. But that’s a whole new thing, of how you can manipulate the pigment sticks. You can, you know, draw with them. You can then go back with paint thinner and mush them around with your fingers, or whatever other things you want to do anyway, kind of those finishing touches are, are gratifying too. So there’s, there’s, there are particularly fun spots along the way with agonizing frustration in between. But that, you know, makes it all worthwhile in the end, usually,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:23

yes, oh man, I love that. That is, it’s very poetic, because it’s always so exciting at the beginning, you know, it’s like a, I think if I see it in a graph, you know, it’s like the excitement. And then it drops like a lot, and then it goes back up towards the end to a very satisfying, hopefully satisfying finish. But I think it’s also really interesting, because there’s this sort of like in the creative process. Along the way, there’s also a destructive process, you know, there’s like this back and forth between you, you know, you move three steps forward, two steps back, sometimes or five steps forward, one step back, and it’s, it’s the same with oil painting too. There’s a lot of push and pull, push and pull, but it’s really cool to see it in a more, I guess, gosh, a more experimental way too, because it is through that experimentation that you discover so much, right? It is you discover, oh, well, like how you said you can’t really use the pigment sticks. Or, like, if you do use a pigment sticks, you can’t really do something on top of them without destroying them. So it’s, it feels much more scientific. Kind of like how you said that, you know, the chemistry side of like, working with materials was what interested you. And I love to like that. Do you ever find that you might start a piece and then you you just, there’s like, no way to salvage it? Have you noticed that happening? Or do you are you able to save like, a good amount of them?

Nancy Phillips: 24:53

Yes, I have a stack of them over to the side that I’m trying to keep out of the. Out of the view of the camera, yes, but often I find that if I if, if things are really going badly, then I don’t care anymore, and I can be really reckless with it, and that’s when better things happen. And I’ve done a number of commission pieces where I’ll I, if I do, if I get a commission for a piece, I try to do two or three, because I find that if I’m if I just do one, it’s it’s too precious. I’m too tentative with it. And if I do two or three, then I can be much more casual and reckless. And the one that I initially started out with, that I think is really going to be successful, is not nearly as successful as one of the others that I was less, you know, I was more, you know, carefree about So,

Laura Arango Baier: 26:05

yes, that is so important, because there’s so much you know, when we put a canvas right, we’re right. We have a canvas ready. It is so easy to put so much pressure on ourselves for it to be the best thing we’ve ever done in our entire lives. It’s like, this is going to be the masterpiece. This is the one. But it is awesome to have that idea of like, okay, I know this piece is important. It’s commissioned. I’m going to make three so I know I have space to, you know, let myself play and not be so overcome with, like, the worry and fear of, oh my gosh, what if this doesn’t turn out and I have to start over? It’s good to have that wiggle room of, like, Okay, I’m going to play around a little bit and not put so much pressure on myself, because I mentioned this earlier. But there’s something, and there’s something really limiting imperfectionism, right? Like it’s such a box that we put ourselves in, you know? And of course, the way that you work, it’s hard to stay in the imaginary box of perfectionism, which I think is so healthy, even if it is frustrating.

Unknown: 27:20

Yes, definitely. So I

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

also wanted to ask you, if you’ve had since you’ve, you know, you’ve had this very long time to be able to experiment and play and learn and repeat the process over and over. Have you had any recent or big aha moments in your work that have really, you know, changed your perspective in your work, or have helped you move forward as an artist.

Nancy Phillips: 27:58

I think it’s a little bit that way, when I start working with incorporating something new, starting to work within caustic was a little bit like that. It changed. It definitely sort of took me on a little off ramp to a little bit different esthetic in the work that I do. And then pigment sticks have sort of expanded that a little bit too. But there hasn’t been anything dramatic. There was a period I after. There was a period after I got out of graduate school where I did pretty consistent work for about, I don’t know, eight years or so, and then got frustrated. It was just going nowhere. So I took, I took a couple years off, and didn’t paint at all for about a year or so. And we were living in an old house at that point, and we were restoring this old house, which you use a lot of art materials when you’re I mean, when you’re working with wood, you work with a lot of the same stuff you work with when you’re an oil painter. And so when we find when we finished that and I went back to painting, somehow that sort of reinvigorated the work that I did and and I think probably at that point I I started working a lot more with acrylic than oil paint, because you can you. You can cover it up and start all over again. Easier you can you can abandon that and start again. Easier with acrylic than you can with oil paint. But anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:19

BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever. It’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special ink FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, you know, I You mentioned something there that I like, because I relate to it. I also took time off in painting. And I think exploring other things can really reinvigorate painting or just like creating, because it kind of puts you, it takes you outside of, like, maybe, like, the same sort of bubble that you’ve been in with painting, and it allows you to gain a new perspective. For some people, it might be reading books. I know reading really can change you, especially when it’s fiction instead of nonfiction. It can really give you some crazy ideas. But home renovation, that’s, you know, in in many senses, it’s crafting, yeah, so it’s, it’s very much like, adjacent to painting, like you said, so much of the same things are used. And it also gives you, I don’t know, there’s something weird about, like, learning a 3d construction of some sort, yes, yes. Suddenly go like, Oh my gosh. I just realized this thing about painting that I hadn’t noticed, which is very funny, because it’s a 3d thing that gets transferred into a 2d level, and it’s like, whoa. It can be really mind blowing. But having that time away, I think, is so important for some people, especially how you mentioned if you get frustrated, and it’s if it’s just not going anywhere and it just feels very dry and you’re not excited for it anymore, it’s very good to step away. Yeah, well, since we’re on that topic, actually, I wanted to ask you, when you stopped painting for those years, because for me, I had a bit of a crisis. Did you happen to go through a bit of a crisis too, in terms of your artistic identity, so to speak.

Nancy Phillips: 33:50

I not real, not, not really. I mean, it’s, it’s always been sort of up and down. It wasn’t dramatic.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:05

That’s good, yeah, because I think it’s also, it can be so defeating too. When you take time off, yeah, it makes you feel like, gosh, I’m a failure. Or, why isn’t this working anymore? Is this even what it should be doing? You know, especially

Nancy Phillips: 34:21

if you’re if you take time off when you’re not liking what you’re doing, yeah, when you’re consistently unhappy with your output, it’s, it’s a little depressing. Yes, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:35

it can be very tough. But I think yourself like, Okay, I’m just stepping away for a short period of time, right? I’m just gonna take some time off. I think that that also really helps with not having so much pressure about like, oh my gosh, I’m just stop. I quit, I give up, because that’s very different. But that also makes me wonder, so you mentioned also that your creative process when you’re creating a piece. 90s, you can find yourself in points of frustration. How do you handle or like, what keeps you going, experimenting on?

Nancy Phillips: 35:15

Can you repeat that? I you, yeah. I you,

Unknown: 35:18

so did. I blanked out for just a second.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:22

Okay, yeah, no, I can repeat that. So when, when you’re working on a piece that’s really challenging for you, or like, when you reach a point when you’re creating a piece that gets challenging, what keeps you going, even when it gets really tough,

Nancy Phillips: 35:40

I walk away from it for a couple days, and usually leave it somewhere where I can see it sort of out of the corner of my eye. And fortunately, we have, we live in a house with a big family room next to the living room, and the family room we’ve converted into studio space so I can I can see what I’m working on in the studio out of the corner of my eye when I’m doing normal life stuff. And that helps, and usually stepping away from it for a couple days and trying to let go of what I thought my next step was going to be, and sort of entertain possibility of doing something radically different. And if I mean, I, because I work in layer of thing, layers of things. It, it’s, I can always put another layer of, you know, I can, I can decide to cover that all up with a, you know, a layer of paper that I’ve painted somehow to, you know, if there’s, if there’s parts of it that I think are really going wrong, I can, I can pile stuff on top of that, to obliterate it somehow and keep, I mean, I find that that if I keep working on it, it gets it’s better than just walking away. You know, usually, usually, the things that our best are things that have gone sideways part way through. You know, things that have come together easily are not as interesting in the end as the ones that I’ve had to save somehow.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:37

Yeah, yeah. It’s really interesting. Because I feel like, like you said, it’s a bit of a balance of, like, okay, working more or stepping away. Because even in oil painting, we also have the issue of, like, overworking, yeah, where a section of a painting just looks like it’s been touched way, way, way more than it should have been. And then, like you said, areas that are just oh, they came together really easily, and they’re not as fun or as, like, nice. So I think that’s really interesting, especially with, you know, how I find that I think abstract in that sense, might be a little more challenging, because you are so dependent on the abstract forms of composition, compared to, you know, like with a realistic oil painting, where you can just lay things out and it’s a it’s a lot more obvious to the eye what things are, because you’re already telling them, this is what this is with abstract that it seems like much more of a challenge to like you said how you had focused a bit more on composition. What would you recommend to someone who maybe wants to improve composition? How much of it is experimentation, and how much might be like looking at other artists who have worked on composition? What have you done to improve your composition?

Nancy Phillips: 38:58

I would say, look, look carefully at paintings you like, and pay attention to what you like about them and where you’re looking and what’s happening there where you’re looking. I think it. I think a vast majority of learning to make successful artwork is learning to stop to not, you know, just whack away endlessly, you know, to to, you know, put down a brush stroke and don’t do three or more. You know, it’s, it’s, really, it’s taken me forever to just not overwork things. And. And you know, to see what one brushstroke will do. And especially because I’m working, I work a lot in materials that move after I put them down. I’m not working in impasto oil paint, although that’s what I love looking at. Just to let, let the paint do, do what it does. And, and, you know, step back and, and, you know, stop messing with it so much. Yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:37

that just reminded me too of something that I thought about, which is dialog, right? Having a dialog like you’re saying with the painting, like it’s, I think it’s a lot easier to notice too and abstract, because you have such a very particular conversation with the materials, because you have, especially with a caustic how you’re describing, that it’s such a challenging thing to work with, you have to have a dialog with them, and that material is telling you, this is what I’m going to do, and you got to figure out how you’re going to react to me, because this is what I’m going to do, right? Yeah? And I think that’s one of the bigger challenges, but the way you’re mentioning it, yeah, I think having a bit more of like that, allowing the medium to speak to you, which doesn’t necessarily always happen with oils, in in a realistic sense, I think it’s a lot more obvious with the abstract.

Nancy Phillips: 41:34

Yeah, kind of but I mean, I think look at, I mean, if you’re a realist painter, look at your realist painter heroes, you know, we you, you know, look at John Singer Sargent and his, you know, his individual brushstrokes are like little abstract paintings. And that’s one of the things that makes his work so amazing is that, you know, if you take, you know, a little tiny snapshot, it looks like, you know, Mark Rothko and, and that’s, that’s the hard part is, is, You know, letting an individual brushstroke speak for itself, and and, you know, let it be paint on the canvas, instead of, you know, paint by numbers, you know, a solid block of, you know, titanium white, you know, inside black lines. And that’s, that’s what I do, just on a different scale, I think. And, you know, incorporating different stuff in there too, but, but it’s, it’s letting your materials do what they do best.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:56

Yeah, yeah. And trusting the process to an extent. Because, gosh, I mean, when it’s like, especially with encaustic, or, like, any of the materials that you use that want to do what they want to do, you almost have that you have to let go so much. You have to surrender so much to the process. How, how is that experience been for you? Like, did you have, you have you noticed that you’ve built a bit of resilience towards, like letting the materials do what they want. You develop a very thick skin,

Nancy Phillips: 43:29

yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen. You know? I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting and and you know you you have to let go of your expectations and and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned, at least. And I mean, I I just finished a piece. I’m entering in a in a show tomorrow where there was all kinds of interesting things going on, but there was way too much interesting things going on, and what I ended up doing to save it, in my opinion, is just, I mean, it’s a relatively medium sized piece, which I usually don’t work medium size. But in this case, I am, and I ended up focusing on a piece, you know, that was like two inches by three inches, because it was interesting, but there was just too much. Noise in the background. So I had to basically isolate that little interesting spot in order to let that be the focal point and be interesting. And, you know, let the back just, you know, take a rest, you know, and, you know, fade into the background so that you’re not so frantically distracted by, you know, all the other things going on in the composition. So it’s not what I intended at all when I started this piece, but that’s where I ended up. And you know, so far so good. We’ll see,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:46

yeah, and you know what it I find that that is so interesting. And I think it happens to anyone who’s creating anything, whether it’s painting a craft, anything where, like we might have an idea of what something, you know, what we want something to turn out to be, and then we have to, you know, come to a compromise where it’s not going to look like that, no matter what. It might come close, but sometimes it might never do that. And I think it’s because in sometimes we have, like, some somewhat of, like a dream, like, way of seeing things where, like in a dream, you know, things don’t always make sense. Like someone’s arm might be coming out in a funny way, but in the dream it looks normal. It’s, I find that it’s, there’s also that practice of, like, imagination that gets translated, and then you just have to deal with reality.

Unknown: 46:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:41

And then I also wanted to ask you, because you do sell your your work, which is awesome, what was it like for you when you you started selling more of your work? Like, what because you, you had mentioned to me you actually did some freelance work on the side. What was it like for you when you were balancing those two things, oh,

Nancy Phillips: 47:03

it’s, it’s always been that way for me. I’ve I, when I first got out of college, I worked in a bank for about a year and a half and learned about finance, and then I worked in the interior design industry, and I thought, Oh, great, I’m going to do all this arts, Arty stuff in the interior design industry, and that didn’t happen. I became the accountant, but that’s always been a skill I have in my back pocket, and so I’ve always been able to freelance that and do art at the same time, and that’s helped a lot. So, so that, I mean, I still do accounting a little bit, not very much, but, but it’s, it works. It works and it helps, you know, run a household with a couple artists in it,

Unknown: 48:09

yes, for sure, but

Nancy Phillips: 48:14

it’s been, it’s, it’s been nice to have, I can, I can, I can see how they sort of influence each other. It’s, it’s nice to have something that’s neat and tied up in a box, and when you’re done, you’re done and and you can put it aside. And then there’s this other thing that you know is hardly ever neat in a box, and but, but, you know, I’m still making order out of chaos in in the artwork that I do so and actually, I mean, in the just the artwork I’ve sold, I mean, I’ve been in a number of different galleries, and they’ve always, it’s always been sort of a fluke that has gotten me in the first, the first gallery I was in, I’ve always entered, did a lot of entering jury shows, and, you know, accumulating those lists on my line, on my resume. And I was getting something, I went into a frame shop to get a piece framed that was going in a show. And the framework, I said, Oh, you know, this is just like all the stuff I framed for this gallery over there. You should, you know, show your work over there. And that’s how I got into the first one. And then I forget how the second or third popped up. And then my husband was in a gallery in Massachusetts, and my brother went in there and started chatting with the owner, and she said, Oh, you know, what does your sister do? Well, she’s an artist too, and so she invited me to an invitational show, and my stuff sold, and then she it. Ended up selling quite a lot of my stuff over the years. So it’s always been sort of fluky things like that. But you never know who’s going to see your work where and think they can sell it and, you know, develop a relationship. So one thing sort of leads to another, at least for me, it’s worked that way. But you got to get your work out there where people are going to see it. So you have to enter a lot of shows and join a lot of art groups. I mean, I’ve, I’ve been in a lot of art groups over the years, women artists, mostly sometimes abstract painting groups, encaustic groups, and a lot of those sort of came and went over, you know, covid But, but you know, they have exhibits, they show and then you know your stuff is out there. And you just never know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:01

yes, yeah. I mean, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned, I think, a few times on the podcast, which is, it’s fine to be, you know, an artist who’s in their studio, but in the end, if you want to get your work seen and sold, hopefully you have to step out of the studio, right? You have to go out and talk to people, or, like you said, you know, you went to a framer and the framers like, oh, this, this, and that, you know, go check those people out. They might like you, right? So having that, you know, human connection part, I think, is so underrated. And you mentioned to me, I think that you also started with, you know, you were also doing auctions as well, like going to those events.

Unknown: 51:46

Yes, yes, yes,

Nancy Phillips: 51:51

yeah, we find that that local community galleries and and museums have art auction Invitational things. So we so my husband and I both get invited to submit work to those venues, which are always, I mean, it’s always a great place to meet other artists and see what the other artists in the area are doing, and get your work out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:18

Yeah, definitely, yeah. And how have you found these events? Have you like, has it been the internet, word of mouth, like, how have

Nancy Phillips: 52:28

you just they’ve been art through gallery owners that represent us. I seem to be on boards of museums, and somehow our names get on lists and so,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:44

yeah, that’s, of course, over time. I mean, as you build your, you know, reputation, but in a way, it is building your reputation where you start getting seen more, yeah, it definitely makes it easier to find those opportunities.

Nancy Phillips: 52:55

Yeah, and if you join art groups, they’re always talking about where, you know, everybody’s talking about where they’re showing and where they’re entering, and you piggyback on your friends, you know, I mean, you know, there’s a lot of word of mouth out there that you can take advantage of. So it really helps to get out of the studio and get interacting with other artists who are doing what you’re doing and going to, you know, conventions and things like that. Yeah, yes, yeah, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:25

I mean, you have to seek those opportunities out, right? I mean, something else that I’ve mentioned, which is, like, I think there are a lot of people, maybe not a lot of people, but it has happened to us at some point where we think, Oh, maybe an opportunity will follow my lap, right? It’s like, it might in the future, but you need to start building up, like, to get to that point,

Nancy Phillips: 53:43

you need to create your own opportunities that you can take advantage of.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:48

Yes, yes, yeah. It’s, it’s a little less common that they fall on someone’s

Nancy Phillips: 53:53

lap, not out of the blue, rarely, yes, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:57

It’s usually a bit of, like, a cause and effect thing, or like, oh, maybe you did a piece for this one thing, and then few years down the line, someone’s like, remembering you. It’s all this person might be perfect for this thing, but you have to have had that experience first of like, having put yourself out there in the first place. No one to find your work if it’s if you’ve never put it out there,

Unknown: 54:16

right, right, right. Yes, absolutely, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:22

And then I wanted to ask you, if you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist,

Nancy Phillips: 54:33

I would say, don’t give up, but have a day job, maybe not necessarily a full time day job. I mean, that’s, that’s why I chose this accounting gig, is because I could do that on freelance, on my own, you know, I have, I’ve, I worked for companies for a while, but I hated. I hated being told what to do and where to be when, and it just worked for me to be able to to have my own clients and do it when I wanted to, so that I could do other things when I needed to. And that’s just, it’s i It’s I think, particularly these days, in this day and age, it’s very difficult to be able to make enough money doing fine art to pay your bills. It’s very, very difficult. And, you know, but some people do it and, but you gotta work hard at it, and you gotta, you gotta get yourself out there and, and I think I don’t do workshops myself, although I’ve I’ve done a couple little day things with artists friends of mine, showing them, you know, how I work with encaustic on top of acrylic, on top of all the other media that I use. But I think that’s how a lot of artists are doing it these days, and it’s a great way to sell your work too. You know, I mean, people who take your workshops love your work, and, you know, put two and two together and take advantage of the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:35

So, yeah, it’s a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a it’s, I think it’s good to be honest with ourselves, in that sense, like how you’re saying, like, if, if living below your means isn’t necessarily a possibility, it is good to have a steady day job to help support, you know, an artistic career, in some sense. And I mean, that’s a pragmatic way to do it, so you’re not starving, unless you have really great family support, which not everyone has. But if you do, that’s awesome. That’s very lucky. Yeah. I mean, so much of being an artist is, you know, it can get really tough financially because it it, you know, again, bring it back to the resilience, resilience within your work, right? But also resilience in the fact that sales are going to go up and down, right? You’re not going to be selling all the time, and you have to be able to plan ahead for those moments where, oh my gosh, like, I haven’t sold in a few months. What can I do? And having that financial anxiety can be really, really tough for some people. So having, like you said something to fall back on that is a skill that you you’ve learned, whether it’s accounting or you know anything that is usually, I mean accounting, for sure, is always in demand. So I think that’s a very wise decision. But if someone you know doesn’t like numbers, right, finding something that they’re good at, that they know that they can put to use in those challenging moments, I think is very, very smart for sure.

Nancy Phillips: 58:13

Yes, yes. It’s necessary in this day and age, anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:20

Yeah, yeah, but, yeah. I think, you know, artists will always exist. I think we’re very stubborn people. You know, we love to do what we do, and we will find ways to do it no matter what. And that’s, I think the biggest thing when you’re an artist is just remembering, man, I love to do this, and I will find ways to do

Nancy Phillips: 58:42

it, yeah, yeah, yes. And when people buy from you, it’s, it’s very gratifying. I mean, it really, you know, is an affirmation of all of that.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:58

Yes, it really completes it. Yeah, it feels amazing, because it’s like, oh my gosh, someone actually wants this, this piece that I agonized over and cried over, and it’s awesome. Yes, awesome. Human connection is beautiful. But yeah, I am now extremely curious about encaustic. Thanks to you. I, you know, have studied a lot of in art history, and I’ve studied a lot of paintings that used encaustic and like old techniques, and I find that fascinating. So I think I will definitely reach out to you if I have any questions about encaustic, just like you know, many of our listeners,

Nancy Phillips: 59:37

YouTube, yes, source of all knowledge, source of a lot of knowledge.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:45

Oh my gosh yes, especially for less well known techniques like encaustic, or less popular, I should say, because it is so niche that you know, the people who do know, they really, really want to share this information. They i. I agree. I mean, there’s so much that can get lost over time if we don’t take care of, you know, collecting that information and spreading it out to others, it can be really, really tough. But then I’m grateful for all those people on the internet who do these niche things and like, they’re like, We need to put all of this on there, because it makes life easier for the ones who do find it like ah,

Nancy Phillips: 1:00:25

but, but beware that that encaustic has its chemical dangers too. I mean, you don’t go messing around with it without learning about because you don’t want to incorporate encaustic and thinners make really bad. They make fumes that are very toxic, so you want to have good ventilation and all that, don’t, you know, sit there in your bathroom, you know, melting wax, very bad idea. So educate yourself before you start messing around with that stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s the same with with oil paints too. I mean, you don’t want to be breathing in turpentine, no, much you don’t want to eat while you’re using lead

Unknown: 1:01:20

white, yes, yeah. So pay attention to that chemistry part, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:26

yeah, because it can be very life or death. I mean, I’ve heard of instructors that I’ve had in the past who are, you know, always using oil paint, and now they have, you know, heavy metals poisoning, or have had it, and it’s good to just avoid it in the first place. So it’s good to know, yeah, the safety precautions of encaustic, you know, kind of like how an oil paint you should never, ever, ever leave a rag crumpled up that has oil paint on it, unless you are very much wanting to burn down your own house. Yeah, yes, which I don’t think many of us do. But yes, that’s a very X point. And then, if someone wants to see your absolutely gorgeous encaustic paintings and other paintings that you’ve made, where can they go? Check them out.

Nancy Phillips: 1:02:12

I have a website, Nancy Crandall phillips.com that has all of my work on it. And also, I mean, there, you should also know, I mean, I have a friend who I helped set up a pottery studio a number of years ago, which has gotten me back into pottery. And there’s, there’s some pottery on the website too, but that’s just for fun, really, because once you’re addicted to these art, material things you can never quite get away from them. So anyway, I agree Nancy Crandall phillips.com is where, and I have an Instagram page too that I’m very bad at maintaining, but hopefully I will be better of that in the future. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:00

And then I will also include all of your links in the show notes for people to go check it out. And then if they watch the video, they will have seen your gorgeous work, which it is so nice. Please go check it out, guys. It makes you really want to try abstract because it’s just, it’s the qualities in it are. So I don’t know, there’s something very peaceful about your work that I

Nancy Phillips: 1:03:25

thank you. I feel like, like, the way my compositions work out. Usually are very sort of landscape. You know, they’re like, anyway, they’re they’re reminiscent of abstract landscapes to me in my head, but anyway, thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:45

Well, thank you, Nancy, this was a fun conversation. I am definitely going to go investigate encaustics, and who knows, maybe I’ll start playing around with some abstract to see if I can let go of all that perfectionism that realism tends to track you too.

Nancy Phillips: 1:04:03

Contact me anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:07

Yes, I will definitely keep in touch. Thanks. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Lordier, a California-based pastel artist, mom, and former flight attendant whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life. Influenced by early California and American impressionists, Kim focuses on value, shape, and expressive color, and credits key workshops—especially learning notan and studying with mentors like Skip Whitcomb—for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her longstanding struggles with negative self-talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the “preciousness” of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative “aha” moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and “ladder” is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison, respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember there is always another canvas to paint. Finally she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops!

Kim’s FASO site:
kimfancherlordier.com

Kim’s Social Media:
instagram.com/klordierart/

facebook.com/kim.lordier

Bob Newhart’s “Stop it!”
vimeo.com/97370236

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

Just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through it, because there’s your way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others her in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Laurier, a California based pastel artist, mom and former flight attendant, whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life influenced by early California and American impressionists. Kim focuses on value shape and expressive color, and credits key workshops, especially learning notan and studying with mentors like skip Whitcomb for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her long standing struggles with negative self talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the preciousness of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative aha moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what she sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and ladder is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison and respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember, there is always another chemist to paint. Finally, she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops. Welcome Kim to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Kim Lordier: 2:13

I’m doing great. Thank you so much, Laura. I’m really honored to be here with you.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:19

Yeah, I’m excited to have you. I am so excited to pick your brain about your art, because I absolutely love your compositions so so much. And it actually, it’s one of those things where you look at it and you’re like, oh, man, this really makes me want to play. It makes me want to play with pastel. So bad, you know, coming, yeah. And that is so funny. Every pastel artist I’ve interviewed or talked to. They’re always so encouraging about trying out the medium, because it really does look magical, even though the piece that you have behind you, I’m just obsessed with the movement of tone in the sky. I’m like, yes, thank you. This is amazing. Yeah. But before we dive in more deeply into your gorgeous compositions, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Kim Lordier: 3:02

Sure, I’m a mom and a wife who probably thinks about values and color and light more than is socially acceptable. You know, when you’re out and about and people are having a conversation and you’re like staring at the, you know, the landscape, or whatever. So I wanted to be a horse trainer or a long haul trucker when I was little. I ended up being a flight attendant, which is kind of the same thing as a truck driver, only my cargo was people. I always been a road warrior. Loved to travel, particularly driving. When I was a youth. I traveled for horse shows and as a flight attendant, of course, flying around the country. And I love to drive for painting and art events, which kind of mean, a nutshell,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:01

yes, and you’re an avid outdoor sleep as well, from what I’ve seen,

Kim Lordier: 4:05

yes, I love being outside. I love Mother Nature.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yeah, yes. And I can tell because it really shows through in your work to that love for capturing just how gorgeous things can be. You know, the especially your pieces that have to, like, have this gorgeous crystalline water. I’m so obsessed with those blues. I love it. Thank you so much. Welcome. Yeah, and actually, I really wanted to know because, you know, many artists tend to do this for a very long time. We tend to have started doing this since we were children. Do you mind telling us when you began to follow the path of the artist?

Kim Lordier: 4:45

Well, I think, like many of us, including yourself, we started really young. Yeah, I was always kind of doodling in school. And, you know, first got my first. Was drawing published in a newspaper in first grade, and that my parents kept around. I had no idea until probably a few years ago, and then in fifth grade, I won an award painting or drawing a shark of all things had been, you know, spending all my little younger years drawing horses and little girls and dresses. And I kind of find out, found out early on about a connection between creating and outside acknowledgement for good or bad. You know, you know, you get that response, and that’s kind of a little bit of a dopamine rush in school when and when I was in high school, I started painting horses like with pastels. So I’ve been working with the pastel medium since I was 15, and I started doing horse and dog portraits at that age and for money. So I kind of had a taste of making money. And you know, when people would ask you to paint their horse, or that emotion that comes when they see it, you know, the painting, they’re like some people will cry and, you know, get real excited. And that was a big, I don’t know, just something that resonated with me. Then I became a flight attendant, and I was still doing the animal portraits. And then I found out, as a flight attendant, I wasn’t really a natural nurturer, so I would find myself getting the service finished and then finding an empty seat or heading up to the cockpit to go hang out so I could look outside the window and see all the beautiful, beautiful land that we were traveling over, or going, You know, flying the all nighter from San Francisco to Boston, we go over the northern pole, or towards the northern North America. And you could see the, I just remember this one time when the Northern Lights were happening and the the ground was just covered in clouds and had these popcorn explosions of of it was a big, big storm all that covered the continent or that I could see in front of me. And so you could see these just lightning flashes. And then just as the sun was just starting to create a little bit of peak on the horizon, it was just the most magical time, one of my favorite times ever flying. But it clearly wasn’t as in serving others that was, that was my, that wasn’t my forte. So, yeah, then I think this journey that I’m on now really culminated in 2001 when right around that time I was just dabbling in painting landscapes from photographs, and I saw a woman give a plein air demonstration, and I it was the first time I really felt like I had to do that. You know, when I was when I studied in school, I studied commercial illustration, and I really felt less than and not. I wasn’t competitive. I had no inner drive to pursue that way of working, and I wasn’t very good at the illustration and the it was just a competitive field when I was in that was right as computers were starting to come into into play. And it’s just a kind of an awkward way place for me. Anyway, I’m kind of jumping around here. So I had become a flight attendant, and 911 happened, and I saw this woman give a plein air demonstration. I knew in my in my gut, that I had to paint from start, painting from life. So I started taking a class from her in oil. I was still doing the animal portraits, and then I also, you know, as a flight attendant, I had the privilege of, you know, getting to see the louver and the Met and Boston Museum, and, you know, all these amazing museums. But I was really never, I loved what I saw, but was really never punched in the gut by a painting until I saw museum Oakland museum exhibition that featured the early California impressionists, and that’s the first time i. Really was kind of floored, and kind of had the wind knocked out of me. This just was everything that, you know, I love, I’d love the illustrators, and looking at the illustrators, and, you know, the the impression of French Impressionists were, it was beautiful work. But the California impressionist and then my later study into more American impressionism really just grabbed hold of me, where there’s a marriage of tone and value and shape along with broken color and the expressive brush work. And at that point in time, I, you know, I was certainly aware of Sergeant and soroya and Zorn and all those guys, but really hadn’t taken it was just kind of early on in my my creative journey. And anyway, so all of that kind of culminated around 911 and started working from life, which was a game changer for me, and things really rapidly progressed from there in terms of, I would say, the quality of my work, my passion, the fact that I started feeling like I had an actual creative bone in my body. Instead of that, I was just able to copy, copy something.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:21

Yes, yeah. And those are all really important names, and I could totally see how that would affect your work, because I think there’s something in your strokes. It’s very it’s expressionistic and impressionistic and abstract, which is very beautiful. I think some of my favorite paintings, you’re welcome. So my favorite paintings of all time have always had a very wonderful element of abstraction, so that the eye itself can kind of like work alongside the piece to complete the image. You know, what might look up close like a little blurry thing from afar is a tree. You know, the eye says, Yeah, that’s a tree. It’s like, no, it’s just a little abstract mark on the on the paper or on the canvas. And I think that’s the magic, I think, in painting. And I wanted to ask you, because I think your compositions are so wonderful. I think anyone who goes and checks out your work should definitely study how you’ve laid out your values and how you’ve laid out your colors, because there is definitely a lot of knowledge that is obvious in your work. How would you say that you developed your skill in composition, you know, like the value composition, or actual physical laying out of the elements, color, composition. What helped you develop that skill?

Kim Lordier: 12:51

I think that the way I learned to see earlier on in my journey was I started studying plein air with this woman, and she was wonderful, and I was doing it in oil with her. And then I started painting this similarly with an underpainting process that I learned painting in oil from her with my pastels. Then I took a workshop with this gentleman by the name of John Barry Raybould, who created, after I took the in on location workshop, he created, he was in the process of creating the Virtual Art Academy, which is a great resource for folks. But he, during his workshop, I was painting in oil, and he kind of had this, you know, break you down before he builds you up, kind of way of working. And he taught us this, not amp process. And if you back in, back in that time, I didn’t really hear the word notan before. And notan, for those who are not familiar with that, is a Japanese term that’s loosely translated as black and white design. And he forced us to the first two full days of the workshop was creating notions with these pens, dark light, dark value, light value, and the middle value, and then the white of the paper. And we had to create compositions with that. And then we couldn’t use any color, even when we were on the whole thing was plein air. So we were composing in black and white, and I really learned the value, ha, ha, of values. And it was, and it was, it was kind of tough, because he would give you gold stars for failing at things. Right? So he had a little sheet on every person that was taking the workshop, and you’d get a gold star for not doing well with understanding value or not understanding edges. And so I just remember, you know, feeling good when I when I got there, and then then quickly realizing that I kind of sucked at all this. But then you know, things you know, turned around. And it really, actually forced me to to really learn, instead of just kind of doing, just diving in and doing, and I think that was the biggest, the biggest thing. And then I kind of took that and started breaking apart. You know, my favorite artists work, living and deceased that way, and understanding that really simplifying shape and values had a great deal of impact from across the room. And that’s kind of what I carry on in, how what I teach in during, you know, my workshops. And then, you know, just building on all of that that I learned really early on. And then, you know, my I took one workshop in pastel. I’ve only had about four or five over the course of my career that I’ve taken but my first workshop was with an amazing past Ellis and oil painter. His name is Lorenzo Chavez, and I remember going up to taking a five day workshop with him on location in Tucson. I’m from California, where it was all big oak, dark oak trees and dense shadows, and out in a Tucson desert, it was so aired, I felt like I was painting a Mars and had no relationship. So I really had to think about, instead of big, dark shapes, you know, how do you compose in terms of value, you know, in a higher key environment? And that kind of led me down a different path. And then a key layer in my journey was is continued to this day as Skip Whitcomb, who’s a pasoli oil painter and a mentor, an amazing, gifted artist, and the most generous soul with His knowledge and he’s had a I just recently, I think, you know, we never stopped learning. I just recently took a an online course with him called orchestrated color through the Tucson Art Academy, which has just been a tremendous joy for me to explore color. Color has always been very intuitive to me. I think color has been intuitively a strength of mine, that that I’ve always had fun with, but just actually learning more about color theory has been really a great asset and confidence builder, and has been really fun. We never stop learning. You know, continued, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:29

yeah, exactly, yeah. I was literally going to say the same thing, how with any craft, it’s, it’s more than a lifetime of things to continue to learn and expand within. So I find that’s one of the only reasons I would ever want to become a vampire, is to just have endless time to really hone a craft. Because even Michelangelo, when he was in his 80s, said, like, I’m finally learning, you know, like I’m getting somewhere, like, Oh no, don’t say that. Yeah. And I really find it cool that your instructor would put a gold star for a failure. Because I think at first it can be kind of jarring. It was very Yeah, yeah, because I can imagine, it’s like, congrats, you failed. It’s like, Oh, thanks. But I think failure is so important. I think we all have such a negative view of it, and that’s normal, I think because we are so used to the whole like being punished for failure, but in the sense of creative work, failure is so important. I think, yeah, you can’t, you can’t grow without messing it up, you know, like, and I think that’s one of the hard parts about being a working artist as well, because you try to sell work, you know, you try to create things so that you can put it in a gallery, and then it goes to solve. One’s home and it’s loved forever. But I think in order to get to that point, you have, you know, a lot of artists, me included, of course, we have to accept that not every piece is going to be nice, but that piece will lead to a better piece, usually, hopefully, fingers crossed,

Kim Lordier: 20:17

yes, and sometimes it’s, it’s the pieces that we love the most, that receive the least amount of outside acknowledgement, or whatever you want to, but I found that the paintings that you know I that really have resonated during my journey have always been because, in hindsight, because I’ve learned something, I tried something new that I was happy with. You know, it was had it was kind of successful in in my eyes, but really in the larger picture scheme of things, that was why I loved it was because I learned something, and I’m like, Hey, I got, you know, I just added another tool to my toolbox. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good painting or a solid painting, so I’ve kind of had to learn that,

Laura Arango Baier: 21:12

yeah, yeah. And I think that’s also why there’s a bit of a balance, I don’t know if you’ve experienced this too, where, when you make a painting, sometimes, especially, I think, I think it especially happens for the rest of one’s life, which is, you start a painting and you think, this is the one, this is going to be a masterpiece. Or, like, you feel like you have this like, Oh, I’m totally going to make this amazing. And then, of course, you get shot down by the reality, which is, it’s always a work in progress. You know, your works develop as much as you continue to develop as a person and as a crafts person as well. And yeah, it just the quicker you can understand that as you know, as an artist, one can understand it as an artist, the better it is. Because, like you said, you might have these exercise pieces or these pieces that you know you were hoping would be a masterpiece, but instead they were a lesson. And it’s so beautiful to have those lessons and to look back, you’re like, Man, I, as much as I suffered through this painting. And I think that’s one of those things where, like you really do suffer as an artist. So sometimes you just, you suffer so much through your work, but then once it’s over, and you can set it aside, and you look back on it, it’s like, Man, I overcame this. And I think that’s, that’s the part that I’ve also been trying to really focus on when I’m doing a really difficult piece or trying to overcome a really difficult problem is I find more satisfaction in solving and overcoming now than I used to before. I don’t know if you relate to that. Yes, it’s less satisfying now to actually get it right the first time.

Unknown: 22:58

Yes, I agree. I

Laura Arango Baier: 23:01

agree, yeah. And I wanted to ask you now, because it kind of ties in really well with asking you about if you’ve had any recent aha moments, or if you have you had like, a like, what’s your biggest aha moment that you’ve had over your creative work?

Kim Lordier: 23:20

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realize that it’s really, truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. And you know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And, you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like, knock on wood, you know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happen to my beautiful space that I love to be in, I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know. And I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody or you know that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here, but it’s just. That I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends. And there’s just nothing greater than that for me, other than being a mom and a wife, of course, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:29

yeah, totally Yeah. It’s living in the moment and just experiencing life, you know,

Unknown: 25:34

yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:37

Because I mean, oh yeah, go for it, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 25:39

Sorry. I had one more thing that was kind of an aha moment on a different scale, or on a different in a different way. I had great advice early on in my career from John Stern, who is the Director Emeritus of the Irvine Museum in Southern California. And I remember, I’m from Northern California in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I remember, you know, traveling down So Cal to go see an exhibition of the early California impressionist which is his one of his fortes, and what the museum, you know, their permanent collection, has an amazing early California Impressionist Collection. I remember, I met him really early on in my career, and he became, he became a mentor and a great supporter of my work. He, he and his beautiful wife, Linda, purchased one of my paintings and or, and they became collectors. Anyway, I remember he took me around and talked to me about the the current show that was up. And then we went back to his office, and we were just chatting. And I, you know, being a past Ellis at that point in time, you know, I kind of had that wiffle waffle, and I asked them, you know, John, should I be painting an oil to be considered a real artist? I know my friends are going to roll their eyes at this. And and he goes, Kim, you know you’re doing beautiful work. And make your mark. Make your mark in your medium. And it was, it was great, great. Very sounded advice. And I took that and rolled with it, and that was that was amazing. And one other thing that an art kind of an AHA thing that helps me move me forward through my journey, was I was also kind of lamenting the fact that our art community up here, at least for representational art, is not as prolific as the community is in Southern California, in my opinion. And I, you know, I remember saying to him, I wish, I wish I lived down there so I could be, you know, closer to the things that are, you know, the events and the people and stuff like that. He goes, Don’t be in a hurry. Or it was more than that. It was also, you know, being represented by galleries and about getting into bigger shows. You know that that hunger that we have as when we’re young and, you know, wanting to climb a proverbial ladder, and he told me, he says, Don’t be, don’t be in a hurry for what you think you really want, because that journey leads to, you know, galleries and shows and deadlines leads to time away for the the creative process of experimenting. And you know that that giving yourself time and grace to go play. And that’s that’s a whole journey in of itself, and and that really resonated with me, and I’ve tried very hard to keep my creative process separate from my marketing and business side of what I do, I think that keeping those things separate, I mean, they truly overlap, but keeping them separate as as much as you possibly can is really, really important. And I appreciate John for his advice way back then, because it’s really helped. I think stabilize. That doesn’t mean it’s gone away. You know that balance is, you know, tough,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:45

yeah, yeah. And I love that you mentioned that, because I’ve also heard that that piece of advice, which I’ve heard a couple people say, it is, enjoy your anonymity, yeah, especially at the beginning. As an artist, I think it’s also in reference to anyone who’s in a creative career, because early on, you’re not tied down by anything like you said. You’re not tied down by deadlines or by the calendar or by the 20 workshops that you might have signed up to teach out of excitement, and before you realize it, it’s, you know, it’s been a year or two or three, and you feel like, oh, man, I haven’t really advanced in in my creative work, right? Like it’s so important, like you said, to have that compartmentalization where, like, you know, you can schedule your experimental work because it and that kind of reminds me of this thing, which is like, there’s things, especially, like you said, you know, when you’re early in your career and you’re hungry, right? As an artist, there’s the things we think we want, and then there’s the thing we the things we actually want, right? So, and sometimes we don’t realize it, right? We don’t realize that the thing we actually want is to just keep creating. And we think we want gallery representation. And this actually leads perfectly into my next question about, you know, having this, I like to call it a Venn diagram, like I mentioned to you before, where we have the Venn diagram of what you want to paint and what sells. And then, for some people, the crossover between those two circles might be really, really narrow, and for some people, it might almost be a complete circle. How do you balance for yourself, creating the work that you want to create, and creating the work that will sell?

Kim Lordier: 31:39

Well, I feel really blessed that I still am passionate and love to paint mother nature in all her glory. So it feels natural to continue to feed the folks who run the amazing galleries that I’m in with the work that inspires me. I I feel extremely fortunate that, I mean, I’m one of my most spiritual places to be is Point Lobos in Carmel, or just south of Carmel, California. It’s along the California coast, and I’ve been represented by two amazing galleries down there, and Jim reserve fine art, who closed his doors because he retired a few a few years ago. And then I’m now down there with Laura Lai and at Carmel fine art, and I’ve always known that if and when that area doesn’t speak to anymore, then I know I have to part ways, because, you know that’s what they want. And our gallery owners that represent us, you know, they have their own esthetic vision and what’s important to them. So I feel blessed that, you know, that’s been a place that I revisit over and over again, that that whole, our whole coastline and the California landscape. So you know, that is, that has been, that has been the easy part. I think a difficult part for me has been, you know, when I travel outside my state and am so inspired by the landscape and the environment and the people, and I’m blessed to be in a few galleries outside my state, in Montana, at alume Gallery, and in Colorado at Wild Horse. And you know, trying to stay true to their vision and and you know, keeping my best work, you know, for them, they all want your best work, and it’s, you know, we don’t always have, we don’t always have our very best work available, because we’re still working so hard to to get to that point. I guess I think that. I think the takeaway is respecting your galleries and respecting the folks that run them, because they have their own vision. And if you’re if you’re not willing to compromise, I don’t happen to be in a position where I could just dictate what it is that I want to paint. I and you know, if you’re in that position, you know, with somebody representing you, oh, and my Hughes Skelly gallery too, down in Balboa Island, you. They all have their own vision. So if you don’t resonate with what they’re wanting, then it’s time to be professional and excuse yourself or have that conversation with you know, are you? Are you willing to carry some something else that I’m Are you willing to try something new with my work? You know, have the conversation and and being open and professional with them is really important.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:28

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art, marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast.

Unknown: 37:08

I don’t know if I actually answered your question.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:12

Oh, you did. I think, I think you definitely did. Okay, good. Because, you know, I’ve heard a lot of artists refer to like relationships of galleries, almost like a marriage or a very, very long term friendship that you have to nurture. And you know, sometimes you have to part ways, or sometimes you have to grow together. And I think that’s a very important, like I said, important conversation to have, because as artists, we’re not just like for the most part. We’re not just this stagnant brand, right? We’re humans who are continuing to grow, and maybe at one point you’re exploring a particular type of subject matter, and then suddenly, as time goes on, you realize, man, I really want to explore this other subject matter, but this gallery in particular, I’m afraid that maybe they won’t take a risk on this new subject matter. Or, you know, how do I discuss it with them? Should I find another gallery for this other subject matter? Because there’s also, like, I think many of us artists, we’re lucky, of course, because I mean living from making beautiful paintings is it’s an incredible blessing. So you know, to maintain that blessing, you also have to realize when you don’t want it to become laborious, in the same sense that you know, if you’re going to suffer through forcing yourself to do something the same way you would an office job, you might as well get an office job. Because, yeah, at least the office job gives you a an actual paycheck in a constant manner. Yes, which is very rough when you’re an artist. Trying to go at it. So, yeah, there’s a bit of a balance. And then if you can, like, you said, if there’s a way to make it more enjoyable for yourself or your painting, like, I’ve heard artists say, like, yeah, you know, I stick to the to, you know, figuring out the stuff that I want to do. And then the gallery says, Hey, can you paint us three more sunsets? I will do it because I know it gives me the paycheck that I need to be able to sit and continue with my experimental work. So it’s, yeah, it’s a balance, hopefully, like I said, that Venn diagram is just a circle, though, for a lot of people, right? But when it isn’t, you got to find ways to supplement, and that’s just the, you know, tough part of being an artist, unless you’re a ridiculously wealthy person already, you know,

Unknown: 39:52

that would be okay. Oh, that’d be great.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:54

Yeah. I would just paint whatever the heck I want and start my own gallery.

Kim Lordier: 40:00

It. Be careful starting your own gallery. That’s a

Laura Arango Baier: 40:03

lot of work. Girl, yes, it is. Yeah. Okay, there you go. I would totally hire people. Oh, man, but I wanted to ask you now, since we’re on a little bit more of the topic of business, when you were still a flight attendant, right? What was that like for you when you decided to shift over to your creative work? What was that like for you?

Kim Lordier: 40:34

It was, I mean, the whole world, and most particularly the United States, you know, there, there was a catastrophic, catastrophic event that happened. And the decision was not difficult. It was like, you know, I, I mentioned earlier, I’m not a natural nurturer. I was, I ended up being a flight attendant because I’m very grateful that my dad was is a right retired captain for a major airline, and when I got out of school, that I’m so thankful that they were able to help me get through college. You know, I flew for the about 12 years. And then 911 happened. And you know, that was, that was a wake up call for a lot of people, the horror of it, and then the Life is short, part of and I, I don’t even want to say this, but the the silver lining around such a horrible event was such that the I went back and flew for about the month of October, after they let that the airs that planes back up In the air, and nobody was flying, and the the airline said, Hey, we’re asking for volunteer furloughs. And I raised my hand because I wasn’t going to lose any seniority, nor was I going to lose my medical benefits. I was going to lose a paycheck, or I lost it pay my paycheck. But it was an opportunity to see if I could do this full time, and I did, and I’ve never looked back, and I’m so grateful for the the opportunities that have come my way since since then but it was, it was, it was a safety net and so that that’s kind of how that that happened for me. I just, I made the choice and never looked back, because, and I feel strongly, you know that you know we are meant to go down a path and the doors open when you know when they’re supposed to So,

Unknown: 43:13

anyway, so that’s, that’s it was. It was quick. And fast is what it was.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes life can be that way. It really becomes a moment where you have this very obvious turning point where it’s like, it’s now or never. Because, like you said, Life is short. You never know, yeah, what’s going to happen tomorrow? We can, we can think that tomorrow’s sunrise is, you know, short for us. But it’s not always the case, and I feel the same way, you know, I try to be like, is this an opportunity that if I don’t take it, I’ll regret forever? If the answer is yes, I’m just going to do it right, yeah? Because yeah, like we said earlier, you only live once, and you got to take that opportunity, if it’s the one that you think is right for you. I’m guessing though, that in that time when you were furloughed, you just focused on making work. Did you also focus like, did you already have galleries that you were talking to or were working with? Or did you have to rebuild that and like, No,

Kim Lordier: 44:19

make right around. Yes, sorry for talking right around that time, it was a lot of things happened all at the same time I mentioned earlier, you know, I saw that the early California Impressionists started painting, painting from life in, you know, 2009 11 happened, and I was, had already been in my first I was invited to be in a cooperative Gallery, and so I was kind of seeing what that what that felt like being in a gallery. You know, when I was I’ve never. Pre that as a goal to be in galleries. I didn’t have a clear vision of what my creative journey was going to be like, you know, moving forward. And so I was, I was already in the Portola Art Gallery at that time, and shoot, I forgot what your question was.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

If you know you’re good, it’s only if you continued, or, like, when you were furloughed, how you managed to, like, you know, get back into or, like, start working with galleries and like, oh,

Kim Lordier: 45:33

right, right. Okay, yeah, yeah. Thank you for the the prompt we let’s see, started working from life to 2001 2002 you know, I’m learning my craft and working, or being in the involved with that gallery, and then I end up getting pregnant. And then my very first, my very first plenary event was Carmel fine art, and I was six months pregnant, and I remember slipping around out in Carmel in the sand dunes with my big belly and my art gear and painting and it was a great experience. And I continued to do plenary events, which is kind of how I got my voice, my work out there, and the galleries I had, I just had I’ve been so blessed my gallery in Carmel. Jim approached me during an event down in the Laguna, Laguna planer painters Invitational, way back in 2005 he goes, I really love your work, Kim. And would you be interested in me representing you up in Carmel? And so, you know, I ended up there bringing him a body of work, and so that, that has been a blessing. Gosh darn it. I forgot what the what your question was. Again,

Laura Arango Baier: 47:21

backwards. And 10 in time, you’re good, you’re good. It’s, yeah, it’s just how you built up, you know, your art career after, yeah, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 47:29

So it’s been, it was, you know, I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of, I think, like a lot of us, throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium. We have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows so my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base, and that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know my friends, people that are who maybe listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s Your Way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work again. Remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important, but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get. The top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke. That’s so corny.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:10

Oh no, but it’s, can’t believe I said that, and it’s a great point. I think it’s, I think I was mentioning this earlier too, like, how, ah, you know, there’s something about making work that also speaks to yourself, right? It’s the work that you care about. Because if you’re painting, you know, someone else’s work, right, you’re imitating someone else, which is totally fine. I mean, we all start with imitation, to some extent. That’s how we learn to write, that’s how we learn language and art being a language, that’s how we learn to paint and express ourselves. But if that’s all you’re doing, using climbing someone else’s ladder, you’re setting yourself up for failure. I mean, yeah, there’s, after so many years of betraying yourself like that, right? Betraying the actual deep message, the ones that come through, you’re gonna feel empty. You’re gonna feel you know, it’s, it’s inevitable, because it’s not your dream, right?

Kim Lordier: 51:16

And and also, climbing summit, I think, I think about climbing somebody else’s ladder is where it’s more about comparing your journey to somebody else’s, where you see somebody being real successful, and you get frustrated because you’re not climbing the rungs the same way as that other person. And so being aware that it’s, it’s your own journey that is that you need to just to stay in and relish and I think, yeah, no, it’s your personal ladder to climb, not not somebody else’s, and to do your best to keep the comparison out of it, because it’s so easy to compare. And you know, if you’re not getting into shows and you’re not getting acknowledgement, that doesn’t mean that your work’s bad, awful or a failure, it just means that that’s just somebody else’s opinion, and the most important opinion is how you feel about your own process. The takeaway, I think, is that if you’re not in love with your own process, then none of the rest of it matters, not the likes, not the hearts, not the followers. None of that matters if you don’t love what you’re doing, and it’s doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to follow the path of how you see somebody else, quote, unquote, making it, because you also don’t know what’s behind the scenes of that artist’s dialog that they say to themselves, that’s a whole nother thing. You know your internal dialog that happens? You know, I have a lot of negative dialog that has run throughout my journey, and that whole feeling of that imposter syndrome, too is a big has been run all through and still does to this day, little little devil on my shoulder that I’m like That flick off, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:18

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, totally. And that’s why, you know, it’s if you have the devil on one side right, telling you all these horrible things, which most of us artists do, it’s better to just, like, go listen to the other side, little angel on the other side, and, like, try to pay attention to that a little bit more. You know, to some extent, it is good to be aware of where you can improve, but not to the point where you’re crying yourself to sleep every night. Absolutely, yeah, and I love that you mentioned, you know, not, not chasing someone else’s, you know, like level of success, or how quickly they’ve ascended, because that’s just their path. You know, you can’t, yeah, sometimes life will throw you into an even more amazing path than you can ever imagine. And that’s why to it, yes, yeah, you have to stay open to that. Yeah, stay receptive and open, because you like a little bit like I said earlier, there’s what you think you want, and then there’s life surprising you with something even more grand or something even more magical that like you’re, I don’t know, 1820, year old self could never have imagined. Because life, of course, continues and keeps going and going. And when you think you’ve seen it all, and you think you know it all, it surprises you again with something even nicer and even more amazing, truth. Yeah, true, yeah. And actually, I did also want to ask you, since we’re on the topic of, you know, like, some of the difficulties of being an artist, besides, you know, the creative aspect, financial aspect, and. What do you what would you say is one of the hardest things about being a full time artist that no one really talks about.

Kim Lordier: 55:08

Um, all I can speak is for from my own journey, and we’ve already, kind of, I already touched upon it, and that’s been a, you know, an a negative internal dialog that I’ve, I’ve battled since, you know, since college, I remember, you know, I studied commercial illustration, and I cut my way through classes because I never felt good enough. And it was very competitive. There was a lot of in a lot of ways, you know, what I felt? It doesn’t necessarily mean it was actually what was happening, but it’s how I felt. But the you know, the harsh critiques, the never feeling like I could draw well enough, like comparing myself to the other people around me. It was a and that I built on that, and still to this day, I kind of battle with that. You know, not again. It’s the comparing that is always going to take, tear you down. It’s not going to keep you, it’s not going to it’s not going to allow you to rise up. So, you know that imposter syndrome? You know, when the successes that I’ve been truly, amazingly Blessed with over the years in my journey, I’ve had some, you know, some wonderful things happen. And basil, you’re like, Is it for real? You know, did you know that I just, Is that for real? You know? And it still amazes me, you know, today, when something beautiful happens, such as this conversation that we’re I’m allowed to have with you and share my journey with you and whoever’s maybe listening, I remember, Oh, back, I don’t know, 10 years ago or so, I was been part of a major national Show, and the curator of the show is she, what is, is a force and an amazing woman in her own right. But I remember her sharing with me, you know, bring me something different, send me something different than what you normally do. This is, this is a place to try something new, and then she invited me to channel another artist’s work, and it threw me for a loop. And it really tapped into she had no idea. She had no clue, but it tapped me into, like, a couple year, I don’t know, sadness wrapped around what I was doing in that I it tapped into all the negative things that I’ve been saying about myself, to myself quietly, that I wasn’t good enough, that I needed to do things differently. I needed to paint differently, be somebody else I wasn’t good enough, that she never said that, but that’s she just pushed that that trigger for me, and it took me a couple of years, really, to get out of it. And funny enough, she’s the same person that I had a conversation with, and I call it my vomitus interruptus moment, where I was talking to her on the phone. She lived in a different state. For me, I had one of those not pouring out of my nose, hiccuping crying sessions on the phone with this professional woman. I can’t believe I’m sharing this with you guys, with you. And she literally said, Kim, I’m clearing my desk for me, for you right now, because I was just like beside myself, and I let it all out, all the insecurities, all the blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just was a cathartic moment and and it was amazing that happened with the same person who, who was slightly the devil on my shoulder, you know, even though she had no idea until then, anyway. And it was a it was all me. It had nothing to do with her. It had nothing to do with her. It was all my all my shit. Use my language, but that’s the truth. Sorry for my potty mouth, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:51

Oh no, you’re good. You’re good. It is warranted. It does feel that way, and I relate so hard to that I think I’ve. Had much like you. You know, those moments of mirroring my own pain, suffering and security onto someone else who really reflects it very clearly, even though they don’t realize it. I’ve also had those moments, and they become almost like a symbol for that pain and that frustration. And of course, I’ve also had my breakdowns about it because it I think one of the hard things too about being an artist is sometimes like, again, you think you want something, and then turns out the thing you actually want has to kind of like surface over time, and I felt that way very much about going to academic school, where I always tried so so hard to fit in. I tried so hard to, you know, fit in with my peers and be admired also by my peers. And it just never freaking worked. And it came to the point where I realized, man, I you know, it’s like a square peg in a round hole. You know, there comes a point where you just can’t force yourself to fit into a mold that just isn’t for you. And the quicker you realize, man, important, yeah, I need to just let myself use these tools that I’ve gained from, you know, learning these skills, and apply them in a way that makes me happy, and get myself out of this bubble that I’ve decided I should fit into, right? And that’s been the hardest thing to deal with. And I, you know, here in your your experience, it’s like off, man, I resonate so hard with that little devil. Yeah, oh, you’ll, you’ll never be able to do this. Or, Oh, you keep failing at this one thing that all your peers can do already. Or, like, you know, just stuff like that.

Kim Lordier: 1:01:53

Yeah, yes. Oh, stop it. You said, stop it. There’s that I just have to share this really quickly. I was working on a lecture that I had mentioned earlier, and I had a friend, Susan, who was helping me along with it. She was she’d kind of edit and stuff like that. And so self I’ve had to work on being less self deprecating verbally and also saying apologizing for everything, which is kind of a thing that I’ve done forever. I’m so much better at it. But Susan helped me, because she made me listen to this Bob Newhart one of his comedy sessions where he’s a psychiatrist, and for those folks who are listening to this and you have if, if you find yourself apologizing or consistently or being self deprecated, or find something that you’re repeating that drives yourself Crazy, check out his episode called stop it because it is hilarious. And the stop it is a is a term or a phrase that I now use for myself to help, help me stop it. I promise you guys,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:20

yeah, no, I’m gonna link it into the show notes. So are very other listeners might also check it out. I think it’s so funny because I didn’t realize that you were gonna say stop it, and I was literally just saying, like, stop it. So now I want to watch it so I can Yeah, it’s hilarious. Yeah, that’s a

Kim Lordier: 1:03:41

great way to reinforce that. And it’s, you know, psychologically, it shuts the brain down. You know, when you say, stop it, you’re, you know, it’s like, it’s like, it stops that cycle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:53

So, yeah, yeah, because it’s so easy to just get caught in that loop, yeah, it just repeats itself, yeah. And then it feeds itself too, which is awful. It’s why it’s so hard to break it. But yeah, totally. I know you’ve also given a ton of advice here, but do you have any final advice for someone out there who wants to make a living for being an artist?

Kim Lordier: 1:04:17

Um, I guess I have a couple things that I’d like to share, if that’s okay. I think, I think it’s super, super important to be professional in every element of the business side of what we do. I know that’s pretty silly to say, but having been on the receiving end of shows, and, you know, doing a little bit of volunteer work that I have done, and realizing that people don’t read their prospectuses all the way through and follow. Follow. You know what’s going to help the volunteers and the folks behind the scene that are working their tails off for you to submit your painting to a show. Just so always read and follow your prospect prospectuses. Honor the deadlines. Don’t be one of those that don’t be an artist cat where you have to be chased down to get what the folks that are working hard need to get to put the show on. I recommend be proactive about pursuing your own like articles. I was the my very first article that I had in the pastel journal, which is when I was pregnant or had just had Ryan, was came from me, because at that point, I’m so old that people weren’t writing about motherhood and being artists, that you wouldn’t find articles like that in magazines. And I approached the editor and asked if we could do, if there could be a, you know, an article written about, you know, being pregnant or and she, like, grabbed it. She said, Yeah, let’s do it. And so I was able to kind of be a part of my first article. So know that if you have an idea or you’re seeing something that’s important to you, that’s not being written about, it’s fair game to go approach an editor or say, Hey, I’ve got this idea. Write it yourself. The new ideas are always out are always out there. So again, respect the volunteers working behind the scenes. You know, I think you mentioned, you know, how to approach galleries and stuff like that. That’s a hard, kind of a hard thing. I’ve been very fortunate to have not really had to go down that path yet. I’m sure that will, that will happen in my future, but I think it’s things are so much different now. You know, going in with a portfolio, and assuming that there’s so many artists out there now and so few galleries, and they’re closing fast that you know, if you find a space that you really want to be a part of, go be a part of the community. First, go introduce yourself to the gallery and get to know what the space is all about. And for every individual artist out there, there’s an individual, individual gallery owner who has their own creative vision, and it doesn’t always mean that your work is going to fit in with their space. They’ll get to know what that is. And I have kind of some personal advice, especially now, our world is constantly changing, and I feel very strongly that happen. Happiness comes from within. It doesn’t come from likes or hearts or your followers. And I, I think it’s so important to trust your instincts, your instincts as they will lead to solid work that will then lead to doors opening down the path that you are meant to walk, not somebody else. And I think I said it earlier, but remember that there’s always another canvas to paint on.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:44

Yes, yes, I’m so so so happy that you mentioned trusting yourself, because that really ties into everything that we’ve been talking about. Because even just like you said, you know, if you lost everything in a fire, you have to trust that all of the work that you’ve done, it wasn’t just a fluke, right? It came from you, and you can do it again. And building that self trust is so important as an artist is trusting that, hey, I can figure this out. I might not know what the heck is going on? I might not know what the problem is right now, but I can trust my my skills and myself and what I’m capable of to figure it out, because Absolutely, that’s all you can really do. Yeah, absolutely won’t have all the answers, but you can try darn hard to try to get them. Yeah, and then I wanted to ask you also, because I absolutely love your work, and I think you know anyone out there should go check it out. Do you have any upcoming exhibitions or shows or workshops that you would like to tell us about?

Kim Lordier: 1:09:58

Sure, let’s see. I. I will be I just finished teaching a workshop couple weeks ago. I do about two a year, maybe sometimes three, but my next workshop will be in Boise, Idaho, and the end of September, beginning of October, and it’s through the pastel society of the West Coast. I’m really excited to get up in that neck of the woods and and play, and then I’ll be judging. There’s a plein air event in Eagle, Idaho that I’ll be judging. That event kind of during the same time. I’ve got an upcoming show that I’m very honored to be a part of in Ojai, California. It’s called Ojai Ojai Mystique at the Ojai Valley Museum, and there’s 19 nationally renowned artists that’ll be that’ll have a major studio piece and a planar piece, and that’s going to be this coming April. I think it opens the 17th and runs through the beginning of August. I think I am brand new and very excited and truly honored to be part of the planner painters of America. They’re one of the first pioneer painting groups in the United States, and they’re having a show at the Thunderbird foundation of arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, called Heart of America. And it’s let me see my notes. I wrote the notes down here, coast to coast, inspiration from America’s premier outdoor painting group, and that’ll be in May, and opens the 15th at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio. And then excited to be going back there again for a show in September with my wild women group. I’m part of seven other amazing women artists. We had a dynamite show that opened last summer at a loom gallery in Montana, and now we’re going to have our second show at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio with my my buddies. I’m going to list them, Shannon Coots, Elizabeth Robbins, Laurie McNee, Stephanie, marzella, Cindy Baier and Ramona youngquist. And I think most of them have Faso websites, so we can find, if I say their names, you can find them on Fine Art Studio online, and, yeah, I’m represented in with my glorious I galleries in Carmel at Carmel fine art, Hugh Skelly gallery in bellboy Island, which is in California, Holton frames and studio, which is in Berkeley, California, wild horse gallery in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, ILLUM gallery West in Montana, and the Thunderbird Foundation for the Arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, that’s a lot.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:29

Yeah, work, yeah, yes. And then, do you mind telling us what your website is?

Kim Lordier: 1:13:37

Oh, yes. It’s way too long to spell out, but it’s my maid, my my maiden name and my married name. It’s Kim Fancher laurier.com and it takes you to the Fine Art Studio Online website that I have. But if you just Google my name, Kim Lordy, a because of Faso, it comes right to the top of of the of the the search engine, which I’m really grateful and then I’m on Instagram and Facebook. Instagram’s K Laurier art, and then Facebook is, I think, Kim dot Laurier. So there you have it. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:20

Yeah. Well, I will also be including all your links in the show notes so people can check out your gorgeous work. And of course, if they watch the video, they will see how beautiful your work is. And I’m so grateful to have had you on the show. Kim, thank you so so much.

Kim Lordier: 1:14:34

Thank you for having me, Laura. I really I’m very honored and appreciate this time and the opportunity, and I’m excited for your personal journey down your creative path. So thank you for sharing a tiny bit of that with me, of

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:50

course, and thank you for being, honestly, a lot of inspiration that I think I really needed so good. Yeah. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

We are soon changing the name of this podcast from The BoldBrush Show to The FASO Podcast. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush, over the years we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes much confusion for most people. So, to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO.

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For today’s episode compilation we explore how artists can reframe rejection as a normal, even necessary, part of a creative career rather than a verdict on their worth. Our past guests describe rejection as an ego blow that must be met with humility, a willingness to learn, and a long-term mindset of steady improvement. Several artists share stories of painful setbacks—unsold shows, declined gallery submissions, ignored emails—but explain how these experiences fueled their determination to work harder and get better. They emphasize building a “thick skin” while still remaining open to tough, honest critique, using feedback to refine both craft and professionalism. The conversation also highlights that rejection isn’t always about the artist’s shortcomings; sometimes the fit, timing, or other person’s vision just isn’t right yet. Throughout, our past guests stress perseverance, self-awareness, and staying committed to the work itself as the healthiest way to survive and grow from rejection. All of the episodes mentioned in this compilation are linked in our show notes.

24 Kelly Eden

46 Hillary Scott

60 Gladys Roldan-de-Moras

63 Noah Buchanan

76 Chris Navarro

87 Johanna Spinks

101 Joseph Gyurcsak

121 Paul Batch

140 Donald Yatomi

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Transcript:

Hillary Scott: 0:00

You don’t quit, the only way to fail is if you really quit. And I think a lot of people, they get discouraged to the point where they do quit, and then, of course, the narrative is like, oh, it’s not it’s not possible. Well, it’s not possible because you quit and you didn’t stay the course, and you didn’t do everything that you could possibly do to make this an option for yourself.

Donald Yatomi: 0:20

I don’t think anybody can teach you how to take rejection, but you got to be ready for rejections, and however you process that, handle that, it comes, rejection comes, you know, even to the most successful people.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:39

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world. In order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode compilation, we explore how artists can reframe rejection as a normal, even necessary, part of a creative career, rather than a verdict on their worth. Our past guests describe rejection as an ego blow that must be met with humility, a willingness to learn and a long term mindset of steady improvement. Several artists share stories of painful setbacks, unsold shows, declined, gallery submissions, ignored emails, but explain how these experiences fueled their determination to work harder and get better. They emphasize building a thick skin while still remaining open to tough, honest critique, using feedback to refine both craft and professionalism, the conversation also highlights that rejection isn’t always about the artist’s shortcomings. Sometimes the Fit timing or other person’s vision just isn’t right yet throughout our past guests stress, perseverance, self awareness and staying committed to the work itself as the healthiest way to survive and grow from rejection, all of the episodes mentioned in this compilation are linked in our show notes.

Kelly Eden: 2:05

Build relationships. Show people you care in any relationship you make on your career path. Show people that they’re special. Art collectors, fellow artists, art galleries, etc. If you start showing in galleries. You know, you can always be honest about your work and experience and invite feedback. So if you’re not sure, you know what price point your work would sell for, you can always ask the curator their opinion. You know, assure them you won’t be offended, and you’re just looking for feedback. And also this is a tough one, but get comfortable with rejection. It happens a lot for artists rejection. Rejection for artists is a spicy type of ego death that can be very, very debilitating. So you cannot let it wound you. You have to put a band aid on it and just keep going. Being an artist is one of the most complicated careers there is because there is so much personal passion behind our work. You know, we are sensitive by nature, and that can make it really, really hard to not take it personally when our work is shut down. So on the flip side of that, artists can also be a little egotistical, so I would say, don’t ever think that you’re too good to learn more. You should be getting better every year, and you should be learning from all of your peers one way or another.

Hillary Scott: 3:36

There are certain subjects, don’t get me wrong, there are subjects that at some point in my career, I would love to be able to tackle them, but I know that there’s just no way that I’ll do them justice at this point. So I just kind of take it just just things that are just outside my comfort zone, you know, that are just a little bit uncomfortable for me, but I know I can do them, and I think I have a good idea of that at this point. Like, you know, there was a time back when I was an illustrator, and my taste was up here and my skills were way down here, and that was very frustrating for me. And I think that was the breaking point where I was like, I actually do need to sign up for some classes, because I really don’t know what I’m doing here. And it took me a long time to get to that point, because I think when you’re younger, there’s a little bit of arrogance, you know, like, you’re just like, Oh, I’m like, I know what I’m doing here. And then at some point, you realize that you’re actually not that good as you think you are. And that’s, you know, it’s a wake up call. It’s, it’s a little bit painful to admit that, but, you know, I did at some point, I was like, You know what? I I definitely need some help, because, you know, if somebody shows me how to do something, I just kind of learn. I learn a whole lot faster by swallow my pride and just going and learning things that I thought I knew but I really didn’t know. So that was a great learning experience for me. And you know, what else I feel like? The more like, the more I learn. Or it’s like, the harder it is. And I know that was another quote, that it’s like, the the more I forget what the exact quote is. But it’s like, painting is so easy when you don’t know how to do it. And I think that was for me, I was like, I was a little bit delusional about my ability for a long time back, mostly my 20s, early 30s. So I’ve been at this latest, you know my landscape chapter for nine years now, so I’m, you know, next year will be 10 years of painting the landscapes, and it has been a long, slow journey. But I just, you know, I’ve learned so much, and it’s been painful. There’s, as I said, there’s been a lot of failures, a lot of rejection, you know, but that’s just part of the journey that’s, there’s no, like, easy way. There’s no shortcut to getting anywhere really worth going. It really resonates because I spent, oh, my God, I started working when I was like, I don’t know, like, 1314, you know, all the jobs right into teaching, right out of college, just to make money, I was a teacher. And then, of course, I took a big detour, and I was like, Oh, the art’s not working out. You know, I was kind of listening to the voices, the negative voices that were saying that art is not a feasible career. And I did fall prey to that a little bit. And I did take a detour, went back to school for something totally different, just to have a sensible job. Of course, that didn’t work out, because I think eventually, yes, a sensible job. And I just, I resented it so much. I’m like, I just always felt like, you know, I’m here to paint, and I’m like, nothing is easy in life. Like, if you no matter what career you’re trying to do, like, if you want to be a doctor, you have to go to school for, I don’t know how many years, like, you know, no matter what the career path you’re trying to do, if it’s worth it in the end, if it’s, if it’s, it’s going to be difficult. And this has been no different. It’s just a different path, and it’s been so worth it, though, like to get to this point and just be able to say to the people who told me I could never do this, and it’s just like, it’s gratifying. But yeah, there’s been $0 set. $0 shows there’s just been, as I said, so much rejection. It’s just the just a lot of struggles along the way. But of course, those make it worth it too, because you don’t quit, the only way to fail is if you really quit. And I think a lot of people, they get discouraged to the point where they do quit, and then, of course, the narrative is like, oh, it’s not it’s not possible. Well, it’s not possible because you quit and you didn’t stay the course, and you didn’t do everything that you could possibly do to make this an option for yourself. Yeah, and I just, I didn’t want to feel like a victim. I felt like, you know, these jobs were like, everyone was saying, you know, this is just how it is. It’s like, No one values the art. And I was like, Well, I’m just going to be a victim to this. Then this, this narrative that it’s like, you have to and I’m not a victim. Like, I don’t have that mindset. My mindset is like, I’m going to fight, I’m going to I’m going to, you know, I’m going to win, even if it takes me, like, 10 years, 20 years. I don’t care how long it takes me, it’s just, I’m a fighter. And when I have a will, when I say I’m going to do something, I I do it. I just do everything in my power. And I don’t make up excuses, you know, I don’t. That’s just how I am. And as far as making a living or making money off your work, I think it’s such a slow, such a slow process. It’s going to be slower than you want it to be. It’s just because these skills to build to a level where you can consistently put out work that’s good and saleable. It’s gonna it’s just gonna take. It’s going to take a while, but you always have to realize why you’re doing it. It shouldn’t be just to make, you know, money. When I don’t think any artist is in this just to make money, I think that it’s you have to love the process of it. You have to always remember why you’re doing it, and just enjoy the process of creating art and just celebrate the small victories. You know, it’s not going to be like, all of a sudden you go from like, you don’t paint at all. You don’t know what you’re doing, you know, you go plan your painting one time, and then you go to selling like a $10,000 painting, like, it doesn’t work that way. You go out there, you just, kind of, you’re just, it’s a career, it’s a marathon, not a sprint. So, you know, and I will say this is that while you are trying to make money, I know a lot of artists, there’s no shame in having a side gig, like, you know, something, a part time job. You may hate it, like I hated mine, but you know, you it’s a necessary part of the thing. And then knowing that eventually, you know, if you really put the time in and you’re really invested in your work, you can eventually break free of it and just, you know it’s over time you’ll make you’ll make that progress, and your work will get more attention, and you’ll get higher end collectors, and you’ll get more visibility. But you just can’t rush it, because there’s just only you can only you learn some. Much so fast, like, I just think that it’s a very it’s a learning curve. You know, whenever you’re learning a new skill, it’s just going to take a while, and it’s going to take, you know, failed paintings and a lot of, again, rejection for shows. And so you have to build up a thick skin. You have to build you have to, if you don’t, you’re going to, you’re not going to survive, you know, and be able. And the other thing I would say is be, this was kind of come into play with the question about, you know, when I was getting instruction, and it’s like, be able to take a tough critique, because I didn’t like the people that were like, oh, it’s really, it’s so good. It’s like, you know, I just, I tell me that it sucks. Like, just tell me why it sucks. Like I need to be. I need tough coaching, because that’s the only way you’re going to get better. If somebody is brutally honest with you, we don’t need to sugarcoat things. I didn’t, you know, I never really learned from professors teachers that would be too nice, and they were afraid to insult me. And I know there are people that get very offended, and they’re like, Oh my God. I’m like, I suck. You have to be willing to take instruction. And, you know, have the brutal truth, and you know, spoken to you.

Gladys Roldan-de-Moras: 11:13

That’s a really good question I want to tell you, and I share this with a lot of people, because it relates to many other professions, especially musicians, you know. But I started little by little, I started selling when I was telling you I was teaching, I was also selling paintings that I was doing that I don’t even know. Want to know where they’re at, you know, because sometimes you wish it would disappear. I don’t even know where that but at second hand furniture stores, that’s how I started. My paintings would sell for 50 $100 at all. And I remember traveling to Mexico once, and we would go all the time to visit the family. And my son, David, who’s a wrong, you know, a man now with his own family, young children. He was, like, four or five years old, and we were walking down the the main aisle when, when the airports were all open, you know, where there was no, no, you can’t go past. You know, back then probably, you were probably his age, but, but anyways, there was a local gallery that used to display paintings on the main on the main corridor as you were going into the gate, and my my son pulls at me, says, Mom, mom, there’s your painting. And I’m like, what? And I turned around and I look at my painting. I said, Why is my painting here? I sold it at the second hand furniture store for, you know, whatever. And this one was like, I think $500 I had jumped like from there to, you know, I remember it was at least double or something. And I was about to leave, and I said, when I come back, I’m going to call and see what this is about. And as soon as I got back, the owner, she says to me, she says, Well, we’ve been selling your paintings very often. I thought it was you that was bringing it. And I said, No, it’s not me. But so I remember, because I was selling for $100 that I made a jump to 500 you know, or something like that. But it was big for me. Way back, it was big, but I have been very careful to sell my paintings, and be little by little, raising my prices, raising my price, never coming back down because I wanted you know, you think about collectors, and you say, well, if they are willing to buy one of my paintings and pay whatever amount you know, you don’t want to know that. Oh, well, you know, unfortunately, some artists will say, Well, if you buy it at my studio, it’ll cost you less or than if you buy it so and so, which is so wrong, you know, so wrong in so many levels. So I have been very, very careful through the years that as I moved from little galleries to finally another gallery to another, that whatever you buy at the gallery for whatever it is, you’re going to buy it in my studio for whatever the same amount I’ve never so I’ve been very careful, which has helped me, I guess, Because galleries also get burned about people, because now with social media, any person interested in your work, well, they go Google you, and then they can find you. What I do, I usually do, is I ask people, where did they if that happens to me? Somebody caught Where did you hear from me? Of course, you never know if they’re going to tell you the truth or not. They could say, Well, I went to this gal. And I heard about you, and I Googled you. But what I’ve done is, when they mention a gallery or another one, I always call the gallery and I tell them, Listen, I don’t know if you know this person, but this person has contacted me, and if I do sell, you know, you know, I’ll you will get your but anyway, so what I’ve been is I’ve been very, very, very careful. And when I started selling, it was hard to let go some of the paintings. It really was. Now I find it as an honor that anybody would consider, you know, to add their painting to their collection. But I have been very careful. I have been rejected many times, and that is fine. I just recently, because I still have my old studio in my house. Before I built this studio, there’s still a lot of stuff I haven’t moved over, and I came across it. I came across a letter from a gallery which I had submitted my work and and the gallery wrote me a letter, a very nice letter that said, you know, we just don’t feel we are a fit for you now. And that was, you know, I took it was very hard because, you know, you’re an artist. We put our hearts in our sleeves. Thankfully, we’re not like performers. At least, you know that we have to sing there in live. At least we can paint then go take it over, and then take rejection, kind of, you know, in private or where, but it’s a very, it’s very sensitive. But I found this letter, and I found a letter of that same gallery inviting me, okay, now I was so happy that I felt, I must say, with years different said, you know, the gallery was right. I wasn’t, probably ready for that, or maybe they didn’t believe I. Don’t know, you know. But the thing is that it’s hard to take rejection, but I, you know, I have taken, I have had shows where I did not sell one piece of opinion. So we have to learn that, at least in my life, it’s not all been wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. You know, it’s, it’s learning, it’s trying to be strong and to make not take it personally that well, okay, they didn’t like my work. Well, it’s not because not You’re not good. Like another friend artist says to me, when you have a show and a painting doesn’t sell, well, it’s just that the right collector hasn’t come across. And it’s true, it’s true. It’s happened to me, man, I find a home. I send it somewhere, like they’ll find a home. So so it was very rewarding moving into selling my paintings I was able to afford, you know, buying my own, you know, because, you know, this, this, this business, takes a lot of investment. These paintings that are back here, actually, most of these are G click copies. Some are originals, but this few, and there’s more to where there. And the only reason I have those here, they don’t have the beautiful frames that I usually I had very simple frames, but we know that frames are expensive and all of that, so it’s you have to put money to make more. But it’s been very rewarding. Sometimes it’s been hard. It hasn’t been easy. I still remember going, somebody told me once, how did you get into the Santa Fe market, you know, which was a very hard market to get into it. It was many years ago, and back then, I remember doing this, and I made CDs. It was in social media, or here’s my website. It was just, really, just started, I made these CDs with music, and it had, like a a show of my paintings. And at the end it would stop and say, looking for representation and and my name, and, you know, my phone number. And then I put them in one of those old, you know, covers. And I literally went through all Canyon Road and drop and drop them off. And one gallery called me, and that put my foot on Canyon Road, and I will still remember, I will still remember that, but it was, it’s a hard, you know, it’s not an easy road, but it is a rewarding, you know, wrote, and these are the kind of things i A lot of people come and ask me about and, and I try to be as honest and help them. And why not? You know, people have been so gracious to share with me the way they did it, or be it technically, or, you know, some experience about this business of being an artist. I I’m I’m very happy when I have time to be able to talk to them and give me give them my advice. And now I must say that I’ve been very fortunate that I have never submitted to a show. I have always been invited. It, for which I’m very grateful. I have been invited to so many other art shows, which I wish I could say yes. And you know, you work so hard, all your Oh, I would like to be in the show. This would be amazing. And then it comes to a point where, yeah, you are invited. But can you do it? Can you really paint that many paintings in such you know, and it has been very hard to call people or write them and say, I’m sorry I can’t do it as much as I want. And you hope that you’re not burning bridges, but it’s the honest truth. Just like galleries, I’m waiting for you to present something new, but I don’t know if I’m getting slower as I’m getting older in age, or what it is, or made more complex paintings, but I don’t paint that quick. I paint every day, long, long. Day, 1012, hours, not 10, no, maybe up to 10 hours, but, but I don’t paint that quick, so it’s hard to say no, but you have to, otherwise you’re sacrificing in my point, in my in my experience, you’re sacrificing quality. And I just recently had to ask one of these major shows, if I could sit out for this year because I have so many commissions that I have that have been requested from me. And I said, Yes, and I need to deliver these. So they were very nice, and they said, Yeah, that I hope just you don’t just not show up anymore. I said, No, I just really need one year. But it’s But getting back to the like the business thing, I always tell my students, be very careful, that if you are going to go up on your prices, that you’ll be very careful, and you do not come back because collector’s world is very small, galleries world is very small, and you have to be very professional about this, so that people have credibility in your work, you know. And so I have been that way and and I couldn’t be happier to where I’m at right now.

Laura Arango Baier: 22:19

Applebrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast.

Noah Buchanan: 24:00

um, that’s a great question. I I think for me, because I love the narrative in in in traditional painting, realism, representational painting, whatever you want to call it, that’s always been my biggest inspiration. You know, even just from looking at storybooks and illustrations as a child and later, reading all of the classics that were illustrated by NC Wyeth. So I have a strong love for the narrative, but I think traditional illustrators like NC Wyeth, like Norman Rockwell, Howard Pyle, who I, who I regard as masters, you know, they I think the role of the illustrator is to give the story in a more straightforward way. But they don’t always do it that way. I mean, sometimes they just depict the they illustrate the story being told. You know. Because that’s their role. They’re an illustrator. Their image accompanies a novel or story of some kind. I like it. For me. I like it when there’s a piece of the narrative is there, but there’s also a mystery waiting to be investigated or solved by the viewer. Or maybe it’s never solved. Maybe they maybe it leaves them with the feeling of mystery. I think that’s important to leave the viewer with, with either a mild or strong dose of mystery to the work, even if the painter has a specific intention in mind, and what they’re doing and what they’re what narrative they’re telling. That’s where my interest in narrative artwork falls. I think, I think a lot about dreams and how dreams are narratives of types, but dreams are fascinating narratives because they can, they can take, you know, a sudden left turn, or they can have multiple outcomes, or the narrative can change, but and yet still feel cohesive with its initial story. I mean, you know, dreams are, can be wild and crazy and and a lot of people just count them, you know. But I think a lot of artists look at their dreams very seriously. So for me, when I make narrative paintings, I think about dreams a lot, because something that I think is true, something I feel is true about dreams, is that it makes sense that this is true to me, because it’s it’s happening in your mind, happening in your brain when you have a dream. Everything that happens in that dream, everybody that you encounter and interact with, is really just you wearing, you know, a disguise or a mask or a different outfit or cloaked in, you know, the skins of another animal or monster. And so when we make a painting, a multiple figure, narrative painting, we’re really tapping into that flavor of a dream, or playing all these roles, you know, and we’re looking at all these different aspects of our own persona, and then we’re asking our viewer to do the same, of course, because I don’t think narrative Painting is about the painter themselves. It shouldn’t be, I don’t think narrative painting, you know. I think we don’t want to create the impression that an artist is really just narcissistic and completely engaged in their own neuroses. You know. I think it’s important for an artist to to work with all of these themes and traditions, the Jungian one, the campbellian one, but to realize that there’s a duty when making narrative art, to always pull the audience in to make this can make it powerful for them. You know, to say, well, let’s say this painting embraces or grapples with issues of abandonment or or rejection and some way, or, you know, maybe that leads into topics of isolation. It’s important for the artist to say, you know, even though they’ve experienced that themselves in their own life, to not make it a soap opera painting about the way, the exact way in which Dave experienced it, but to really zoom out in the narrative and say, How can I deal with themes of rejection, isolation, abandonment? I’m just picking ones at random, right? Big human theme that will pull in the whole audience. Everyone that’s going to look at this can find a way in to resonate with what’s going on in the story in the painting, or the characters and what they’re doing in the painting, to find a way to see themselves in the painting. I think, for me, narrative artworks, really, they they have that they have that what’s the word, that requirement that they need, that that accountability to speak to the audience, to pull in the audience. And you know, we don’t need to give them a fully scripted version of what’s happening in the painting. A mysterious version of what’s happening is really better, you know, because it does it just, it just tickles human intrigue more, but it also might leave openings or seats in the audience for the audience to feel, for the individual viewer to feel like they can now inhabit the you know, and be part of the audience, be part of the the or really take part in the performance of what’s happening. Feel. They’re in there. I hope. I hope and strive for those feelings in my painting. I’m not saying that I can do that, or that I always do that. I think I do it sometimes when I’m lucky, but I always think about it and and that’s something I want to have happen in my paintings. Definitely.

Chris Navarro: 30:16

I don’t believe in overthinking things like I remember that lady asked me. She goes, Yeah, I want to sculpt a dinosaur. I want light to come out of it. And I said, Yeah, never even in my mind I would come up with that ideas, 90 year old lady. And she says, I want to leave a big monument to the state of Wyoming at the Tate museum. And I want it to be a dinosaur, light coming out of it. And I thought, wow, that is what a request. Well, if I’m gonna do a dinosaur, I’m gonna do it a T Rex. And if I’m gonna do light out of it, I know I gotta have a negative cavity in there, so I’ll make it half flesh and half skeletal. So when you look at one side of the whole sculpture, it looks like a completely fleshed out T Rex. Then you’d spin it around and it would be a total skeleton. And I don’t know it was kind of it was a cool concept. It had Art com light coming out of and she’s the same lady also commissioned me to do, I did a 17 foot tall Jesus Christ, and was Sacred Heart of Jesus, and she wanted light to come out of his heart. Designed that, and it was a challenge to do that. So I’ve only done two sculptures of light coming out of him, and Mary. Alice Tobin was the Benefactor commissioned me to do that. And and I know the last piece I was working on, she passed away before I got it done for but you know, you know, artists need those kind of collectors and sponsors to do a lot of these big projects, you know. And I’m always grateful for that, because, I mean, I get to make a living doing something. I do for nothing, you know, and I get paid for it, and I’ve been able to make a good living at it. But I don’t want to take it for granted, because granted, because I know what it’s like not to have nothing, and I know what it’s like to be at the bottom, looking your way up, trying to, like, go into five galleries, and they all turning you down because they don’t want to represent you because, you know, it’s not good enough. I know what that’s like. It’s not a good feeling, but it fires you up always. You know, I’m trying to help other artists out, and I tell them, I let rejection work for me, but someone tells me that my work’s not good enough, or I can’t get in this show, or or I get rejected for this, or get a rejection letter for applying for a big show, or a gallery turns me down. Says, No, you know, I say, Oh yeah, okay, look, give me a chance. I’m gonna work a little harder and get it right, you know. And then, I mean, the first time I went to Jackson Hole, Wyoming, shredding in galleries was before I became a professional. I had like, five or six little sculptures, and I went in in my little portfolio, and I knocked on five doors. I started at the best Gallery, and went down to the other ones. I said, Well, these are the five galleries I’d want to be in, they all told me now. And I went, my wife was waiting for me in the car, and I went back, and I said, You know what, I’m not good enough yet to get in these galleries. I want to go home and work harder. That’s how I took it. I didn’t say, like, oh golly, I can’t, you know this and that. I mean, you’re not going to please everybody with your work, and you shouldn’t try to, you know what? You should try to do the very best. And that’s the only thing I can really do. I can’t do anything else, and I try not to let others but what’s going on in someone else’s mind? Really, I got no control of that, but I can try to control my mindset, and that’s kind of how I look at it. And I’ve been fortunate to make a living at it with that kind of mindset. You know, I know there’s a lot of young artists, because I get approached by all these artists that want to be represented at my own gallery, and some at my own gallery in Sedona, and we only have probably about 15 artists, and I have to take somebody down to put somebody new up, and it’s hard rejecting these young artists that come in there and they bring their portfolios, because I know what it’s like, you know. And I tell them that, I said, man, good luck. Because you know what? Just keep working hard. I said, the more that you know how you get better. Make lots of art, and the more art you make, the better you’re going to get. I mean, I don’t know any other simple way to explain it, but the sheer number of hours you put in the process, that’s how you get better. There’s no quick fixes, there’s not no gallery, there’s not no art agent, there’s not no article in some magazine that’s going to make your career. It’s a lifelong struggle. You just keep doing and go into the next thing, you know, like, when I finish a big sculpture, I put that aside. Don’t even think about it anymore. I go start on another one, you know. And that’s, I think that’s the way I’ve approached it. I’m not saying My way is doing it is the right for everybody. It’s just worked for me.

Johanna Spinks: 34:14

And, you know, that’s the other thing that we as artists, we have to learn to handle the disappointments, you know. And Ray Kinsler talked about that a lot, you know. And one story that he would say was he had a two certificates on his mantelpiece. Same painting entered into a competition the year before, rejection letter. The next year, he got the gold medal for the painting, and he kept it side by side, those two certificates to remind him that you really you have to enter art competitions, I guess, but you can’t judge yourself by it too much. You know you’re dealing with somebody else’s, the judge’s idea of of who you are, and you know whether they like this, that or the other.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 34:55

I think as far as the journey of the interior. Careers, I had a opportunity was I applied for a contest to be on the Forbes ranch out west to American artists in 2006 2005 maybe. And so I I I didn’t get in that contest, but then I was asked by Steven Doherty, who, at the time, was the publisher of the American artist magazine, that he have something better for you. It was a long rejection letter. Usually those letters I like, Okay, you didn’t get in whatever, but this was a long rejection layer. I said, I better read it. So we read it, and it said, I have something really cool for you, maybe more interesting than the trip you overlapped with another artist, but I really want to do a full feature article on you about your interiors, and so I I said, Oh yeah, that’s fine. So I had an opportunity where I had my laptop, and I happened to be traveling from New Jersey to Boston, and I wrote the entire article on the train, and then I submitted to him. I was really excited about this opportunity, so I wrote the article and submitted it to me. Loved it, and when he published that article, it put me on the it put me on the national level. It exposed me to many different galleries and and you know, at that time, if you got an article from Steven Doherty, it was a very important turning point in your career. It was a big deal. So it did make a big difference. And then I had galleries calling me about my interiors. And my interiors basically started with painting situations in my house where I had my family members. And then I was trying to record the different light situation, this and that. And then I had broadened it to, you know, social situations outside the studio, different places, notable environments, and those type of things. But the journey right now has been very interesting, because I’ve been I started about two and a half years ago, and I have some of them in the back of me right now, but I’ve been painting my studio over and over again in different way, light and situations and all that. Well, I I likened it to Giorgio Morandi. Giorgio Morandi really never left his studio, and he painted the still lifes for about 50 years. And I thought, wow, that’s very interesting. Wyeth never really left his properties, and he kept finding more and more and for more more subject information and growing that story and studio is not very big, but I post these things on Instagram. People think I have this huge studio or whatever, but it’s just the interesting way the light travels in here, and I purposely let the mess grow in different ways, and then I tried to record it again and again and again, and I just did another one last night. So it’s just a continual journey. I don’t know what is going to come out of those yet, because I’d have probably about 40 of those paintings so far. Some of them I have sold off already, but I have a good amount of them. So I don’t know where that’s going yet, but I just keep following it and doing it. I’ve entered some in competitions and all that business, and it’s been an interesting journey because and a great lesson for artists, um hearing this that you know, if you do a one off of a subject matter, that’s great, and it turns out great. And then you want to say you want to move on, but there is something about um, staying in a certain vein, and really work in that vein, and that starts to get really deep. And that’s exactly what has happened with the Studio series. Thing I it’s, it’s been a quite an interesting journey, and I’ve been getting deeper and deeper into it. It’s, it keeps moving along in such interesting in different ways, different life, different moods, different that, you know, it’s just unbelievable when I start to include myself in it at times. So I’m just having a lot of fun with that. Yes, I work on landscapes and other things I am best known in. For collecting my interiors, of course, because that that’s something that is really one of the spots where I really do flourish well. So, yeah,

Paul Batch: 40:10

especially, I mean, I still get rejection now, like, and there’s like, what I like to move up, you know, sure, you know, at some point would I like to, I don’t know, maybe do a museum show or, you know, have, like, you know, that kind of thing. That’d be awesome, you know. And what kind of work would I want to do for something like that? And my head’s starting to go to these places now, because I’m getting a little older and like, what I want to say through my landscapes and my portraits and things like that. You know, that becomes more but early on, yeah, you got to be able to get rejected constantly, all the time, by everybody. You know. You know, your family is going to reject you, your friends are going to reject you. The person that owns the gallery is not even going to talk to you. You know, like, I’ve that stuff early on is really difficult. You got to just get okay with it. I didn’t come from an area where there was galleries, or I don’t come from an income bracket where people buy actual art, so I had to kind of learn about that stuff, you know. And in school all that stuff was dirty. Nobody wants to talk about it, you know, it’s like, I want to sell, I want to be on our is, you know, it’s like, no, no, just, you know, I don’t know, get a grant, go live off of some commune or something, and paint pictures. And it’s like I wasn’t gonna fit me. I, you know, I didn’t want to do that stuff. Not that there’s anything wrong with it. It’s just I didn’t, you know, sugar, I just lost what was in my head. What were we talking about?

Laura Arango Baier: 41:51

I lost it too. I’m being honest. But it’s great. It’s great. We were talking

Paul Batch: 41:56

about rejection, rejection, rejection. Yes, lots of rejection. So feel free to cut me off at any time. I saw a couple of things out there so early on, like one of the I’ll bring up some of my more painful moments. I was at the local art gallery. It’s in West Hartford in Connecticut, and I had been there for a couple years teaching and doing stuff or whatever. But anyways, so they’re having one of these nights. It’s a fundraiser night, and they’re like, Hey, Paul, you want to go paint outside, and then we’ll raffle off your painting at the end. I’m like, Yeah, sure. That sounds fun. You know that I would do anything for them at that point? You know? I was like, absolutely. So I go out there, my wife comes. We weren’t married yet. I don’t think we’re married. I don’t think we’re married. I don’t know. We might have been married. No kids yet, though. So I’m out there and I’m painting, and, you know, a couple people come by and, you know, paintings done, pop it in the frame. You got to go stand up. You got to auction it off, right? I know maybe like 30 people in the audience. Nobody wants to bid shit on my painting. So I got me standing up there next to the thing I worked on, and like, the price drops, like, and I’m still standing there, and nobody wants to bid and I’m just got that stupid look on my face like, fucking kill me. Now, you know, I am done. Just let me go die off in the corner somewhere. This is the most horrible thing in my life. Nobody wants to pay like, 200 bucks for this thing, like, seriously, like the cost of the frame. No, nobody. It’s not even worth it at that point, you know. So, I mean, I did. I did all kinds of stuff like that early on, just trying to put myself out there, you know, just because you got to go out there and people got to tell you no, and you got to take it, and you got to say, I don’t care. I’m going to get better tomorrow. Frick this my the gallery I work with now, the most is probably at is, is Addison Art Gallery at the Cape Helen, if you’re watching, hello. I love telling this one too, because it took this is, this is nine in sign language. We don’t do three. This is nine. So it took me nine years of emails to this woman before she would talk to me. So every year, while I’m at home with the baby and trying to, like, hey, I can do David casting, sure. Well, I’m in that headset. I’m like, I was getting American art collector and some of these magazines and stuff, and I saw a painting by Paul Schulenburg that I liked, and it was a like a bathrobe hanging off a door, you know, no big deal, right? But the lights hitting it nice. I like the way it’s painted. And I’m reading the article, and he seems nice. And I noticed a gallery, and then the woman working at the gallery, Helen, she owns a gallery. It’s her gallery. And then I see them again in the same magazine, you know. And I’m like, and it started to put it together. Like, wow, she’s really working for this dude. Like, I need, I need a Helen. I need this woman, you know. So I. I ended up having a list of about 2025, galleries that I would email every like six months or so. And I would just send out all my paintings, or whatever, all my, you know, portfolio images, send them out. No, nobody. Nobody responds to those things. You know, every what, what would be nice. Would be like, Hey, not bad. Try back next year, you know, those kinds of things. I was like, oh, somebody said something, you know, but, yeah, no, after nine years, and I never went there before, that’s my problem, right? I didn’t go to the gallery, right? Anybody now who wants to get in the gallery? You have to take your butt and you have to go into the gallery, and you have to say hello, and you tell them up front, you’re an artist and you’re just here to look, you talk, and you just go to the openings, you make friends with the artist. You know, I think that’s still a good way to get into galleries. I did this cold email stupid thing, because I was, you know, whatever, after nine years, she sends me back an email and says, Hey, we’re having a paint out, I don’t know, next month, why don’t you come it wasn’t like, Hey, your paintings look fantastic. I love your work. It was, hey, we’re having a paint out, why don’t you join us? I was in Connecticut. She was at the Cape. It was probably like, five, six hours. I’m like, Oh God, I’m gonna have to get a hotel. I’m looking at my wife. I’m like, do I do this? And she’s like, well, yes, you do this, because right now you have nothing. You know, the furniture store you were showing artwork at has long gone. You know, kids are in diapers. So I’m like, okay, so we slept it. We got two kids at this point. I go up there and it is an all day interview. Now, it’s not an official interview, right? I get there, there’s a paint out. I don’t do these things. I was I had almost very little plein air experience at the time. So I go there, and I’m because I just paint on my kitchen table and stuff like that. So anyways, so I go there, and you have to go sign up in the morning. And I go, Hi, I’m the guy you know. And she’s like, cool, go, here’s some places you’re gonna paint. I had no concept of the cape at all. I was just happy it was, like a gray rainy day, because I hate green, and I can do gray rain and, like, right? Yes, that mood. I can do that mood. So I’m like, All right, fine. So I go and I paint and I say hi to people. And I don’t like to say hi to people. I’ve gotten way better at it, but, like, at the time, I was just like, I want to be an introvert artist. Leave me alone. You know, that kind of stuff. And I had to go paint on location, come back at lunchtime, show her what I did. I get sent back out to go paint some more. But looking back, there was all the interview. So it was meeting the other artists. It was working and talking with her that day. It was jumping through whatever she wanted me to jump through, because we had an exhibition at the end of the day where we hung up our wet paintings, and we stood there and, you know, did that whole thing, which all new to me. You know, I do not feel comfortable standing next to my artwork, smiling and saying, Hey, look what I did. I do not like doing that. I would much rather talk about anybody else’s work in the gallery except mine. I’ve gotten better at it, but at that point, I’m an idiot about these things, and she was making people come and talk to me. So now I’m talking with, like, collectors from the gallery, her friends, these people, and I assume they are going back and giving her the thumbs up or the thumbs down as to like, hey, this guy’s a jerk, or, Oh, he seems nicer. I don’t know what happened behind the scenes, but at the end of the day, my wife was in the parking lot with the two kids. It was getting near the end, and I’m like, can we go? You know, the kids are like, restless, so it’s like, fine, it’s almost over. Let’s just go. I get in the car. We start driving down the road. Got a long ride back to Connecticut. Helen calls me up because there was no, like, goodbye or nothing, I don’t know, like, and she’s like, Hey, there’s somebody here that wants to talk to you. Where’d you go? So I just turned the car around. I was like, hang on, I’m just outside. Went really fast, back to the place, ran inside, talked to who she wanted me to talk to, and then, um, thank God I did, because then after that, we were good and, like, I was in, but what I didn’t realize, like, wow, you know, so that’s a long Helen story, but awesome. That was my in that’s how I got in there. And then once you prove yourself at a gallery show, you can do the work you do the work other galleries notice, you know, the more exposure you can get through other venues, because she helps promote me. So I get in the magazines once in a while now, thanks to her and things like that too and stuff. So I mean all that really helped elevate me out of my kitchen. I mean, I’m forever grateful for that, but what I didn’t expect the interview day to be like that, that was that was just a wild day, and I look back on that really fondly, but I was a mess.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:12

Oh man, hindsight is 2020, but that’s awesome.

Donald Yatomi: 50:15

That’s, Can I say one more thing? Of course, that would be helpful, but it’s very, very hard. Is, is, I don’t think anybody can teach you how to take rejection, but you got to be ready for rejections, and however you process that and handle that, it comes, rejection comes, you know, even to the most successful people like, you know. So just be, just be aware that it does come. And, you know, you got to be able to take a rejection and learn from it and and sort of like, have that self want awareness that, hey, maybe, you know, maybe I’m, you know, I’m not ready for this, you know. But there’s another thing too. Is when you get a rejection, it’s not always your fault, meaning it’s not just your work that it’s that’s an issue. Sometimes it’s the other person that you’re proposing to that they’re, they’re not, they’re not being able, they’re they’re not able to see the value of you. Just yet, you know, they don’t see the potential, or they don’t see a value of you. So it’s like I said, it’s not rejections will come, but it’s not always going to be you that’s being rejected. They’re actually, you know, not not being able to appreciate you kind of thing.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:48

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode we sat down with Stacey Peterson, a Colorado landscape painter and former chemical engineer. Stacey discusses her lifelong love of art, early influences from her creative mother and inspiring high school teachers, and how she eventually transitioned from engineering to full-time painting. She explains how problem-solving skills and professionalism from engineering transferred directly into her art career and helped her manage the business side of being a self-employed artist. Stacey shares major artistic influences, including the Canadian Group of Seven, California impressionists, and several contemporary landscape painters, as well as the pivotal mentorship with Jay Moore that encouraged her to paint what she truly loves—the outdoors. She describes her attraction to strong light effects and color in the landscape, her process of narrowing each painting to a single primary idea, and the different roles plein air studies and studio work play in her practice. On the business side, she emphasizes relying heavily on strong gallery relationships, staying active on social media for visibility and connection, and the long-term networking value of juried shows, while advising artists to keep putting in the hours since that allows one to develop a recognizable personal style. Stacey also talks about teaching, recovering from a serious leg injury while keeping up her practice with acrylic gouache studies, and shares her current focus on restocking galleries and her upcoming participation in Plein Air Painters of America and Oil Painters of America shows.

Stacey’s FASO site:
staceypeterson.com/

Stacey’s Social Media:
instagram.com/staceypetersonart/

facebook.com/staceypetersonart/

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Transcript:

Stacey Peterson: 0:00

If you have a recognizable style that’s all your own, it’s a lot easier to sell your work, especially to get into galleries and shows, because you’re not automatically competing with five other people who look like you. So I think that spending the time, and I guess this goes back to the like being a little bit of a hermit, and putting in all those hours, is when you go do that. That’s that’s how you develop your style. So putting in the time to develop your own voice is very important if you want to sell your work.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Stacy Peterson, a Colorado landscape painter and former chemical engineer, Stacey discusses her lifelong love of art early influences from her creative mother and inspiring high school teachers, and how she eventually transitioned from engineering to full time painting. She explains how problem solving skills and professionalism from engineering transferred directly into her art career and helped her manage the business side of being a self employed artist, Stacey shares major artistic influences, including the Canadian Group of Seven California Impressionists and several contemporary landscape painters, as well as a pivotal member for today’s episode, we sat down with Stacey Peterson, a Colorado landscape painter and Former chemical engineer. Stacey discusses her lifelong love of art, early influences from her creative mother and inspiring high school teachers, and how she eventually transitioned from engineering to full time painting. She explains how problem solving skills and professionalism from engineering transferred directly into her art career and helped her manage the business side of being a self employed artist, Stacy shares major artistic influences, including the Canadian Group of Seven California Impressionists and several contemporary landscape painters, as well as a pivotal mentorship with J Moore that encouraged her to paint what she truly loves, the outdoors. She describes her attraction to strong light effects and color in the landscape, her process for narrowing each painting to a single primary idea and the different roles plein air studies and studio work play in her practice. On the business side, she emphasizes relying heavily on strong gallery relationships, staying active on social media for visibility and connection and the long term networking value of juried shows, while also advising artists to keep putting in the hours since that allows one to develop a recognizable personal style. Stacey also talks about teaching recovering from a serious leg injury, while keeping up her practice with acrylic wash studies. And finally, shares her current focus on restocking galleries and her upcoming participation in plein air painters of America and oil painters of America. Shows, welcome Stacy to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? Good.

Stacey Peterson: 3:05

Thank you. How are you? I’m really good. I am

Laura Arango Baier: 3:08

so excited to have you because your paintings are absolutely beautiful. They just feel like this, the scenery that just envelops you, and it’s, it’s just, it’s pretty to look at. It is eye candy for just the shapes and the abstract forms, like I was just observing them and like, this is eye candy for the artist. So I’m excited to pick your brain about it for many, many reasons. But before we dive into your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Stacey Peterson: 3:41

Of course, Thanks for the kind words. I am a Colorado landscape painter. I live in Evergreen Colorado, which is up in the mountains, outside of Denver, and I paint 99.9% landscapes. Love being outside, and that is just like what I’m really passionate about. So I’ve been doing this for about 18 years as my job, and it’s the best job ever. I love it so, so,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:09

yeah, awesome. Yes, it is the best job ever, because you get, hopefully, a really nice boss that doesn’t control your hours too, too much, and gives you a break sometimes. But you know, it’s, it’s one of those things, but that’s awesome 18 years and before that, of course, you were actually in a different career path. But I wanted to ask you, before you tell us about this really interesting, cool career path you had before that evolved into something even cooler. When did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Stacey Peterson: 4:44

Um, I think that I’ve always been an artist as long as I can remember. Um, my mom is not an artist, per se, but she’s very creative. Has a great eye for design, and had always done crafty type things. So I grew up in a house where I had a mom who was doing flower arranging one week or stained glass another week, and she actually worked in an art gallery where I spent a lot of time as a child and actually took my first steps. So I feel like I’ve been surrounded by art forever, and I have just always loved painting and drawing ever since I was a little kid, and as I got older and got into high school, I had some amazing, really inspiring art teachers in high school that were really impactful on me. So I feel like I’ve loved art as long as I can remember, and I’ve just kind of evolved along the way and gotten more and more into it as time went by.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:42

Yes, and you also mentioned a couple things there that are. I think I’ve noticed with a lot of artists, which is support in some sense, whether it’s a teacher, family member, you know, like your parent, for example, like being exposed to some of it. It isn’t always the case. Of course, some people are like, no one in my family’s artistic at all, but it does help a lot to have that family support, or like the just like someone in your life who sees it and, you know, supports you through it. Because I think there could be some really good artists out there who unfortunately were forced into a different path. But actually, that’s the next part, which is, so you were originally an engineer, which I think is really phenomenal, amazing, challenging, crazy. Can you tell us a bit about you know, how you went from artist, wanting to be artist, to engineer and then

Stacey Peterson: 6:41

back to artist. Sure thing, I always loved art, as I said, but I’ve also always loved science. Did well in school and when it was time to figure out where to go to college and what to do for my career, I think I had a very supportive family as far as my art goes, but I think that they were also very logical and encouraged me to consider all of my options. And I felt like I should probably go get a degree in something that was going to be something that would be easier to support myself with, or something that was a little bit more stable. And so I ended up going to the Colorado School of Mines, which is an engineering school here in Colorado, and I majored in chemical engineering and minored in environmental science. So I worked as an engineer after I graduated for about six years before I switched to being an artist full time. So really big change, but I did do art the whole time, and I don’t know, I don’t regret it, like I learned a lot in my engineering school and my engineering work that I think still applies to what I do now. So I think I wouldn’t change it.

Laura Arango Baier: 7:55

Yes, yeah, I agree. I think sometimes things happen in a specific order for a reason, or, you know, just things. Life has its way of working out in mysterious ways. And I think it’s, it’s fascinating, you know, to have gone into a very, very rational career, into a what a lot of people consider to not be a very rational career, which is being a creative person, you know, like we mentioned earlier about, you’re your own boss. You have very, you know, free range in terms of what hours you can work and whatnot. So it feels a little bit more loosey goosey compared to very strict linear like work. Time starts, this time ends, this time, which you can also maintain as an artist, of course. But also, I wanted to ask you, too, do you find that there has been any transference, per se, of skills that you’ve noticed from engineering that went into your paintings?

Stacey Peterson: 8:56

For sure, I think there’s a lot people have a misconception that engineering is not creative, that it’s this very left brain type, type activity where you’re just crunching numbers all day. But at the end of the day, when you study engineering, and when you work in engineering, it’s all about problem solving, they teach you how to take all of these inputs that you have and you have this problem, and you have to be really creative. You’re often in a room with a bunch of people trying to figure out, okay, this is what we have, but we have to get from A to B, and how do we how do we solve that problem? How do we get there? And there’s a lot of creativity involved in that, and I think that that applies to everything. I laugh that a lot of my friends from engineering school, hardly any of them are still doing engineering. They’ve all gone on to very different careers, not quite as different as mine. But I just think that the skills you learn prepare you to do just about anything that you want to tackle. Um, so I think there’s that, there’s problem solving. I can look at a painting, or when I was learning how to paint, and I can say, oh my gosh, this isn’t working. How can I get there? What are some resources I can use? So there’s a lot of creativity in approaching a problem in the same way. And the other thing I would say is that I personally think that being successful working for yourself is actually pretty difficult, and I’m not sure had I gone to art school and then tried to make a living as an artist when I was 21 or 22 years old, that I would have had the professional skills or business skills or even maturity to tackle that at the time, I wonder if it like you said, it’s very loosey goosey. I worry that had I been 22 when I tried to make this work, I wouldn’t have had the maturity or the business skills to figure out how to make it work. So I think having a career beforehand can really help, because you come at it with a lot of business skills that you might not have otherwise, and I do see that with a lot of my professional artist friends, most of us had some sort of professional career before we did this, and theirs might not be as different. They might have been doing illustration or graphic design, but I think that having a boss, having deliverables, having a job like it, teaches you a lot of skills that you need to use to be a successful fine artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:25

Yes, I totally agree. And also the aspect of lived life as well life experience, because as an artist, right? There’s especially if you start early, like you said, if you were like 22 it’s very unlikely that a 22 year old has the social skills of, say, for example, 30 year old, right? Because they haven’t had to experience that, especially when it’s, for example, sales Right? Definitely not unless they’ve worked really hard on a summer mall job and they’ve had to deal with customer service, right? But from what I’ve seen, most artists are very reserved or introverted, or tend to mostly just talk with other artists. So I think in that sense, I totally agree. I mean having the lived experience skills of dealing with other people, dealing with a boss who, like you said, has, you know, they demand deliverables. They tell you, Okay, this is how things should do, should work. So that you know how to do them as well is really good as, like, a practice for like, okay, that means that, you know, when I’m with my own stuff, I really need to be on my game to know exactly what I need to do so that my lights don’t get shut off next month. You know, because it’s all on you. And I think that’s the like, like you said, that’s a challenging part about being your own boss, your own everything, lot of responsibility. But of course, as the saying goes, you know, with a lot of freedom comes a lot of responsibility. And I think as artists, I’ve it’s so funny, because you would think it’s it’s so difficult that someone would give up. But every artist I’ve met has been like, this is the best job in the world. I would never give it up, even though it can get really hard, and sometimes you don’t sell for a while, but then suddenly you do, and then you just want to keep going, because it’s just, even just the mental exercise of the problem solving of paintings, or being excited for your next painting, and it just seems to roll forward in a really natural way that makes you be like, Huh? I mean, as long as I keep paying my bills, that’s totally fine, you know? Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, because since you did go into engineering prior to painting, I wanted to ask you in terms of your influences your paintings, because, of course, landscape beautiful, and you have mentioned to me before that you absolutely love being outdoors. You are an Outdoors Woman. Who would you say have been your greatest influences in your work?

Stacey Peterson: 14:07

I have been in love with art for a long time, so I’ve always followed art, and I have probably too many artist influences to mention, but when I was younger, I really fell in love with the Canadian Group of Seven that was probably like the first group of artists that I really followed that weren’t just, you know, the ones you would know in grade school, like Monet or Picasso. I was just really drawn to the design and the color choices. They’re not strictly representational, and I just got really excited about that, probably around the time I was in high school. Once I got more into landscape painting in my 20s, I really fell in love with the California impressionists, very inspired by their work, especially. Usually, like William went just love his brushwork and color Edgar pain, his sense of design, you know, his use of big, big, simple shapes, really speaks to me. Yeah, so I think that. And then there’s a lot of amazing contemporary artists, like I can’t even begin to mention how many contemporary artists have inspired me. You know, Clyde, aspevig, Len schmeal, George, Carlson, just too many to even think of. But there’s just so many amazing artists alive right now to follow. So I think that’s a big thing. And then I would say one person who’s really affected me in person, I I’ve taken a lot of workshops with different artists to learn how to landscape paint and learn some of the basics. But I had done a mentorship with Jay Moore, who lives here in Colorado. And prior to doing the mentorship with him, I took my very first plein air workshop with him, and at the time, I was painting all portraits and still lives and things that felt like very organized, like I could figure out how the forms work on a well lit face, whereas the landscape, to me, feels a little bit more ambiguous. It’s a little harder to organize to me, or at least at the time, and I remember talking to Jay, and him just asking me, like, Oh, you’re doing portraits. Like, well, what do you really love? And I was like, Well, I love being outside, like the outdoors, like, that’s my passion. I, you know, live in Colorado. I love the Rocky Mountains. I hike, I bike. And he just looked at me and was like, Well, that’s what you need to paint. So I think that that was a big inspiration for me deciding to even pursue this path. Was someone just telling me, You know what, this might not be the easiest for you, but this is what you should do.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:54

So, yes, yeah. And that’s interesting, because oftentimes I’ve heard also, you know, the advice of, oh, well, paint, paint what you’re good at, because you’ll enjoy that, of course. But it’s so challenging when the thing you enjoy is the thing you’re not so good at, right? And it’s good to push through it. And I totally relate with you on that, because for me, it was I really want to get good at portraits because I suck at them, because I love portraits. And then I decided to do a bunch of master copies. And I think, you know, as you develop skill, it becomes even more enjoyable. It’s so difficult at first though, because it’s like, oh man, I really don’t know what I’m doing. And this really sucks. And I can only imagine with landscape too, and plein air being like the Marathon of painting. You know, it’s like the sprinting marathon, because you got to catch the light and you got to, you know, do all of these complex things that, you know, once you insert color in there, that’s really challenging. What was that like for you when you were learning plein air and learning landscape, how did you feel, you know, when you started doing it, knowing that this is something you love, did you find that it was really difficult for you at first to land in it, or did you still get pretty excited to move forward with it?

Stacey Peterson: 18:19

I was excited to do it from the get go. I really leaned into plein air from the beginning, because I do like being outdoors, and so I could go hike and paint outdoors. And so even if my painting was terrible, I was enjoying being out there, and I think that helped. I was really bad at painting landscapes at the beginning. Like when I have taught workshops, I keep a couple of my beginning landscapes in my studio, and I will show them to my students. Like, look you guys where I started, and I’ve come a long way through a lot of practice, so it is definitely not something that came easy to me. Like, I definitely was a much better portrait painter or still life painter, before I tried to do landscapes, but I think that the fact that I wasn’t very good at it is what made it really interesting to me. I think when I was doing engineering, I had gotten to a point in my job where I was sort of doing the same type of tasks over and over, like I might be doing a different task for a different client, but it was the same work, and that got really difficult for me to enjoy doing over and over. And so I think that’s exactly what I love about doing this, is that there’s always something new to learn or a new challenge, a new thing to work on, a new medium I can try. There’s always something and I think that that is part of what I love about what I do, is that I’m always working on something new. I’m always getting excited about something different. And if I get to a point where things are feeling a little bit stagnant, that’s when I’m going to be like, Okay, what can I do different right now? Should I start working on paintings of a different size? Should I try out a different medium for a little while? I really like to depend on mixing things up and learning new things. So I think that that, although it was hard, it was exactly what kept me engaged.

Laura Arango Baier: 20:12

Yeah, and I think that’s a really great logical step right, which is, if the same things are happening over and over again and it gets too monotonous, you got to throw something new in there, no matter what it is, right? And that’s really great that you were able to overcome your maybe that self criticism that a lot of artists tend to have of like, oh, this is terrible. How could you you know that I think a lot of artists carry within themselves because we’re so hard on ourselves, we really want to get the thing and make it look how we envision it and how we want to, you know, describe it to the world that is so challenging, but it’s really great when you overcome that. I think that makes it even more of a gosh, like a really great victory. We say, ha, I pushed through all of those terrible paintings so that I can come up with something even better. Oh, man. And then I actually want to ask you as well, since you do love hiking, and you know you’ve been out, you’ve looked at spots, what is it that makes you stop and say, I want to paint this. How do you select an area? And then what is your process like after that?

Stacey Peterson: 21:25

I it’s hard to pick just one thing, but I definitely just always loved going hiking and mountain biking camping, and I’m the kind of girl that if there’s a beautiful sunset, I’m going to walk outside and take a picture of it, or make sure that I go enjoy it. And I think that that’s really impacted my painting a little bit. I really am drawn to strong light effects more than anything, and color. And so those are usually the things, when it comes down to it, that draw me to a scene. I love painting big mountains and aspen trees and rivers and whatnot, but usually what draws me to a scene is going to be really strong light hitting it, or really beautiful color. I really, I really try to, you know, I’ll obviously be outside and have an emotional connection to a scene. But when I get back to the studio and I start thinking about doing a painting, I usually go through a process of thinking about, what was it that made me have an emotional reaction to that scene? Was it the mountains? Was it the trees? Was it the way the light was hitting? I try to pick out one thing that really stood out to me, because I think that was one of the things that was difficult when I learned how to landscape paint, was that I would go out there and there would be, like this amazing scene that would have mountains and a river and beautiful clouds and trees with light, and I would do, like a really big painting, and I would try to paint it all. And my paintings were just not good, and I couldn’t figure out why. And I think, over the years, what I’ve really landed on is that I need to pick the one thing that really jumped out at me, and then all of the other things kind of need to take a backseat. And that’s part of I think the difference between plein air painting and studio painting, to me is, when I do a plein air painting, it’s I’m just trying to kind of get the shapes and the color and it’s like immediate notes. It’s not to me that’s not a finished painting, but when I go into the studio, I’m taking that as a reference, but I’m making a lot of decisions in the studio about what’s important and what’s not important, and then kind of moving things around and working with edges and working with values to actually make my painting say what I want it to say.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:49

Yes, exactly. And I think that’s the other really wonderful thing that planet artists do as well, which is, you know, that initial note taking, right is like, it’s so important, because, like you said, it’s like, oh, maybe it’s the trees, maybe it’s the mountains, maybe it’s, you know, the light that I’m trying to capture. And I think having that reference of the study, even though plein air can also make a really beautiful finished piece as well, if someone has the extreme skill to pull that off, because I have so much respect for plein air artists. I think it’s so hardcore, first to be out of your studio, and second to go paint really, really fast before the light changes. But yeah, that’s awesome. And of course, if you add to that, like you said earlier, the experimentation aspect, right? If you find like, Oh, I’ve never painted this one tree before. I think that also makes it really, really interesting, because then you’re able to use like you mentioned, like different components to be the narrative, the main storyteller of the painting, like the color, the light, the actual tree that you’re painting, like you have this gorgeous. Snow covered tree is like your main focus in one of your paintings. And I, I am sucker. I’m a sucker for snow covered trees. So I love those because it’s just, I think snow is one of those really versatile things to paint, because it’s just, once you get it, it looks so beautiful. Yeah, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, because, as you mentioned earlier, you did have a job in engineering for a while, but you were still painting while you were doing that, what was it like for you when you went from your job engineering to tapering off into painting? What was that process like for you?

Stacey Peterson: 25:40

Yeah, I I painted the entire time that I worked as an engineer. It started as a hobby, for sure, even in college, I took some painting classes at the local community college. And then after college, I moved to Texas for an engineering job, and being very outdoorsy and moving to Houston, I was a little bit like a fish out of water. I didn’t quite know what to do with myself on the weekends now that I couldn’t go hiking or camping as much, and so I really started leaning on art classes then as like something to do to keep myself happy and well rounded. And so I was painting the whole time I was working as an engineer. It wasn’t until I moved back to Colorado that I really got into landscape painting and started doing that. But after a couple of years of that, I did get into a gallery in Denver, and they were selling my work really well, even while I was still doing engineering. So I kind of knew it was my end goal to quit my job and become an artist, but at the time, I didn’t want to do that, until I knew that, like I actually had clients and interest in my work, where people going to buy my work. So I think getting into a gallery that sold my work well really gave me that confidence to make the leap. And when I had my daughter, I kind of had planned to go back to work part time, but it didn’t work out the way I wanted it to. They wanted me to be traveling a lot, and I didn’t want to be doing that. And so I was like, You know what? This is the time. And so I cut the cord completely with engineering at the time and quit to become an artist. And I will say, because I had just had my first kid, my whole life had just changed, like, all of a sudden, I also had this, like, human being that I had to keep alive and take care of, but, yeah, I just haven’t looked back. Like, ever since then, I’ve loved it. It’s a great job, always challenging, always something new to be working on. And as I’ve raised my kids, it’s also been a fantastic career as a mom, because it’s 100% flexible, like, if I need to go pick up a kid and hold the day because they’re sick, I can, if I need to work at 10pm because I didn’t get stuff done earlier, I can. So I’ve really just loved the flexibility of it, as well as the fact that I’m doing what I love now

Laura Arango Baier: 28:09

at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com, that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true, and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year. Then start now by going to our special link, faso.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah. I think that’s, I agree. I think that’s one of the best parts about it. It’s the I know some artists have like, a studio outside of their house, which is also really nice, but it is also very. Lenient when you’re a parent, to be available, like, yeah, you know, painting can take a long time and a lot of hours of focus, but I think there’s a really good balance that can happen. I’ve met so many artists who, have, you know, raised kids and have been artists and have made a living from it, and I think it’s amazing time management, which is really awesome. But then, speaking also, a little bit more on, you know, galleries and marketing. Have you found that there’s, like, one really lucrative marketing tactic, or one very lucrative way that you’ve been able to sell more work? Has it just been galleries? Has it been also, you know, maintaining a newsletter, social media, like what, or painting societies, for example, what? What has been like your combination of eggs, I should say, in your basket,

Stacey Peterson: 30:54

I would say, I would say, there’s, there’s three things that I’ve really focused on the first that has been pretty much my everything, and my constant since I started, is that I have amazing galleries selling my work. And there’s always, like, a lot of talk, like my friends are always surprised when I tell them what a gallery commission is, but I when I say it’s worth every penny I like, mean it with 100% of my art, because I am not a salesperson. Like, I am super introverted. I almost AM, like, apologetic when I’m trying to sell my work, like, I don’t know my husband makes fun of me. I just like, I am not if you start talking to me about a painting, I’m not going to talk you into buying it. It’s just is not something that I’m good at. I could probably work at it more. But my galleries have been amazing, and I have a few that I have some really long term relationships with, and a few that are newer to me in the past few years, but they’ve all been amazing. And so I make, I would say, 99.9% of my income through gallery sell sales. I don’t sell through my studio. I don’t like to do it. Usually, if somebody contacts me through my website, I’m saying, where’d you see my work? Did you see it at such and such a gallery? And then I’m going to pound them off on that gallery to deal with the sale, because that’s just, it’s it’s not my thing, and I really value my galleries. So that’s the first thing, the second. I do like to keep my social media updated. I find that I don’t sell a lot through social media, per se, but I just think it’s it’s fun. It’s a good way to get a buzz out there about yourself as an artist, if, if you post paintings and people get excited about them, I find that it’s just kind of a good way for people to start to know who you are if you have a big following. And I also find that I like to post a lot about process. I love posting like a work in progress or a video or, you know, just like some words about what I’ve been doing. And I find that people really respond to that, and even if it’s artists who are more interested in learning how to paint than buying art, I just find that that that buzz does a lot to like. It keeps me motivated. I guess it keeps me excited. So whether it’s helping me sell paintings or not, I’m not even sure to tell you the truth, but it keeps me engaged and excited about art, and so I think it’s really important for my career. And then the third thing that I would say has really helped me career wise over the years is just doing shows. When I started, I tried to do like little jury local shows. And I did get into like a gallery up in Breckenridge, because the owner saw one of my paintings at a show in Denver that I did that was real small. And then I started doing the national shows, like oil painters of America, American impressionist society, that sort of thing. And I just found that doing shows like that is kind of like rolling a snowball, like you start doing it, and it’s real small, and it feels like you’re not doing much. But as you get into the bigger and bigger shows, you go to them, you meet a lot of people, and all of the sudden it’s like you don’t even know when it happened, but when I started, I was having to beg galleries to carry my work. I was having to send them a packet and talk them into it and give them like a trial group of paintings. Whereas once I started doing the shows, and I bigger and bigger shows, and I met more and more people, I just feel like things got a little bit easier because people knew me, like a lot of the galleries I’m in now, I met at shows, and so they were either they invited me because a collector recommended me, or we met at a show and got along so I wouldn’t count out those juried shows. As far as making an impact, sometimes you feel like, Oh, it’s so expensive. I had to enter the show. I had to mail my painting. I had to travel to the show. I had to my painting didn’t sell, and then I had to ship it back to myself. And you can look at that and be like, Oh my gosh, I just spent hundreds of dollars, and it wasn’t worth it. But in the end, I feel like those have been worth their weight in gold to me because because of the networking opportunities that they gave me. So I think that they are. I think now that I look back at my career, they were, they made a bigger impact than I even thought at the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:27

So nice. Yeah, no. And I love that you described it as like a snowball effect also, because that makes, you know, it makes a lot of sense. You know, it’s, I think a lot of artists, myself included. I could just be speaking for myself, though, but I think a lot of us are very excited right when it’s like, oh, I have my work and I really want to sell it and I want to get it out there. And then, like you said, you know, it can be very disappointing when you ship it out to a show, it doesn’t sell, and then you ship it back to yourself, and you’re a poor student or a poor artist at that point, maybe you have your day job, and it hurts. But like you said, the networking, the having done it in the first place, it means you’ve gained experience, right? You know how to ship a painting out now. You know how to send it, maybe to a framer, and then your framer ships it out to the other person. You can pay for the invoice. There’s a whole process that goes in, and it makes it a lot easier for the future in future shows or bigger ones, and then eventually it leads to a sale. Or you meet a person, even if you didn’t sell anything, Hey, you made a really great friend, or you met a future collector or a future gallery representative. And there’s so many more possibilities that open up. And I love that you also mentioned that over time, it feels like it gets a little easier, which makes perfect sense, because the more you put yourself out there, the more people see you, and then the more they recognize you, and then suddenly you’re part of it, right? You’re not just like hiding in your studio, like a lot of us, like to do, so it’s pretty great,

Stacey Peterson: 37:07

yeah, for sure. And I will say, I guess also, the big benefit of the social media and the shows, which you touched on a little bit with what you just said, is meeting other people. I’ve made so many amazing artist friends through both of those things, and having friends who are artists is also such a big inspiration just going on a trip together and painting, or when I used to do plein air shows, and having a group of people to go paint with and share ideas with for the week, I can’t underestimate having artist friends. Like, what a big because my friends where I live, like everyone thinks it’s really weird that I’m an artist. I don’t have any artist friends that are local, but I love all the artists that I’ve met across the country that are just huge inspiration.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:53

So, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, that’s the other underrated thing, right? Because you get to maybe go visit them on a trip, or you run into them at another like OPA event or another plein air event, and you get to see how they’ve grown as artists, how you’ve grown as artists. Or maybe they’re like, Oh yeah, you know, I have this gallery, and they’ve been great. You know, I can recommend you vice versa, because in the art world, at least that I’ve noticed, word of mouth really is one of the best things that I’ve seen, because it’s, in many ways, it feels like a very small world. Everyone kind of ends up hearing about everyone else, especially at OPA and like the plein air events. So it’s very important, one, you know, to go out there, and two, to help others as well. I mean, I think, you know, making it a lively, happy community where everyone helps each other through all the tough parts. Because being an artist can be really difficult, is also, I think, the really great benefit of the career, for sure. Yeah, and then, do you happen to have any really good advice, maybe for someone out there who on one side right? So maybe two pieces of advice you might want to share on one side, really, really wants to get better at something they’re not quite good at as an artist. And then, do you have any advice for someone who wants to make a living as an artist?

Stacey Peterson: 39:32

Okay, the first one I feel like painting with other people is a huge one when you’re starting out, if you’re struggling with something. I think that when I was beginning and I was really struggling, it was a huge help for me to go take a workshop, or even, you know, like oil painters of America, when they do their show every year, they have demos and workshops and. And I think that if you’re struggling with anything, it’s very helpful to go watch demos or listen to other artists talk about art and figure out how they’re approaching things, and think about how that can help whatever you’re struggling with. I will say, as I branched out and got a little bit better at art and a little bit more evolved in my career, I have also gone the complete opposite direction and done this slightly hermit like thing when I’m struggling, where I really feel like I need to just lock myself in the studio and work through it. So I feel like at the beginning, it was very helpful to go get other people to help me when I was struggling. But once I knew a bunch of basics about art, I had the tools I needed, but I needed to figure out on my own how to make those tools apply to making a painting look good. And so I definitely, I think, since covid on, I haven’t been traveling for as many shows. I haven’t done any plein air shows. I’ve really just been locked in the studio with myself and trying to work through developing my own style and the things that were bugging me about my paintings, like, How can I fix that using these tools that I got from all these great artists I’ve talked to? But how can I apply that in my own way? So it’s it’s it’s not a very satisfying answer to the question of, like, what can you do when you’re struggling with something? But there is a point where just being willing to, like, stubbornly work on it over and over and scrape the bad paintings and keep working on it is kind of just what you need to do to get there. So I do think there’s a lot of just putting in the hours at some point as well. Like I had years where I was like, I’m just going to try and do 100 paintings, even if they’re little studies. And I think putting in the time helps. The second question was marketing, that one is tough. I will say that like I think that, like a lot of artists, I think that the marketing and selling of my work is probably my weakest area. I will say what I tell most of my students, if they are wanting to get into selling their work and make this career is that they really do need to focus on having their own style in their work. I know a lot of people will go around and take a lot of workshops from the same person, or they’ll like a certain style and so they’ll emulate that. But I find that the most successful artists I know our artists who I can walk into a show and I can see their painting across the room and be like, Oh, that’s so and so’s painting. I don’t have to go read the little sign to see who painted it. If you have a recognizable style that’s all your own, it’s a lot easier to sell your work, especially to get into galleries and shows because you’re not automatically competing with five other people who look like you. So I think that spending the time, and I guess this goes back to the like being a little bit of a hermit, and putting in all those hours is when you go do that. That’s that’s how you develop your style. So putting in the time to develop your own voice is is very important if you want to sell your work,

Laura Arango Baier: 43:24

absolutely, yes, and that’s, it’s one of those funny things, you know, finding your style that it feels like, it’s almost like, when you look at it directly, it disappears. You know what I mean? It’s almost like, like a disappearing object, like you can only see it on, like your peripherals, but directly looking at it makes it disappear. And I think that’s one of those challenges that that so many, especially early artists, have, because, one, they haven’t put enough enough hours in, like you said, but also, I think because they’re trying to chase after something that just takes time, right? Like, it’s not, it’s like your handwriting. We all learn how to, I mean, at least when I was in school, we did calligraphy, or, like, not cursive, right? When you try to do cursive, you have to learn the letters, and then over time, that becomes, you know, like your own handwriting, and suddenly it’s not really like the same exact cursive that everyone else is writing, but that can only happen with so many hours of writing, right? And I think that’s one of those comparisons that I’ve heard quite a bit. But yeah, it feels like this elusive sort of mythical thing. It’s like, oh, my voice is an artist, but how? Right? And I think that’s why it’s such a common question to get. And actually, I have a bit of a follow up to that. How long would you say that you started to notice that you had a style in your work?

Stacey Peterson: 44:59

I think that when i. Started landscape painting, there are certain things that jump out at me about a given scene that I think have been constant, like even when I look at paintings of mine from 20 years ago, there are things that I was really excited about that I’m still excited about in my work. And so I do think when I look at my paintings from 20 years ago, and now I can still see a little bit of that voice back then. Like I love atmospheric effects, like I love the way the mountains turn blue when they’re distant. I love that sort of thing. I love strong light, like the late evening or the early morning. That’s my favorite thing. So I think that that’s been a common thread in my paintings, when I look at things I was doing 15 years ago, that’s what I was painting then, and that’s what I’m painting now. But I think that probably, like 1015, years in, is kind of when I stopped worrying about my style and had done enough painting that it just sort of felt like it is what it is now. And when I see a grouping of my paintings at a show compared to everyone else, there came a point probably, like five, six years ago, where I was like, Okay, you can pick out my work compared to everyone else’s. And it’s kind of just because I’ve been doing this long enough, but now it’s mine, whereas at the beginning, I would take a workshop and I would try and make my trees like so and so, or I would like the way, you know, this other guy painted water, and I would try that. I just don’t do that anymore, now that I’ve been at this almost 20 years. So I think that the longer I’ve been at it, for sure, the more it’s evolved into being just me, and it’s not really something I’ve focused on. It just it’s like, you said the handwriting, I feel like, at the beginning of being an artist, I was like, Oh, I really want my style to be like this. Like, I really like this about other people’s works, and I want to emulate that, whereas now, like, I don’t think about my style at all. I just paint. And there are things I look at in my paintings like, oh, I don’t really like that. I’ve been doing this a lot, and I’m going to fix it, but I don’t really think about it in terms of style. It’s just in terms of technique. Or how can I better say what I want to say?

Laura Arango Baier: 47:15

Yes, yeah. And I love that also, because, like you mentioned, you know, maybe you tried to emulate the way someone else did, especially in the beginning, right? Because in the beginning, just like with handwriting, we learn by imitation, right, which I think is one of the most natural ways that humans learn. Even as children, we imitate what our parents are doing as kids, and I find that it’s very similar with painting and just learning anything you have to imitate it in a repeated sort of fashion, and over time, as you you know, oh, maybe I’m going to try to paint this water the way that I want to paint it, or just using these tools that I’ve developed in my toolbox as an artist, just to see what comes out. And then you repeat the process again and again and again and again. I mean, it’s very iterative process, which is so funny, because that actually reminds me a little bit of engineering, which it seems like it’s a little bit of that, you know, it’s like, it’s so funny because I feel like painting is also very much like the scientific method. You know, you have your hypothesis and you have your variables, and then you have to go through your experiment and then see, oh, what was the result? What variables should I change for the next one? And, etc, etc. It feels like a very logical process for it being a creative process as well, which is very funny, since you also mentioned engineering being very creative. Yeah. It’s the same I’m saying yes, it can be yes, but yeah, do you, by the way? Oh, I also wanted to ask you, because you mentioned that you’ve had students. Do you when did you find that you felt like ready, or that you started getting invited to teach workshops in your career.

Stacey Peterson: 49:03

I think once I’ve been painting, once I’ve been doing this professionally, like maybe five or six years, I had a lot of galleries that would have me come in and give a demo, or at a plein air show, I would give a demo, or they would have us all show up and paint somewhere one night, and the collectors would come around and ask questions, and I really enjoyed doing that, and really liked talking about process and meeting other artists too. So I really enjoyed the teaching aspect of giving a demo. So I started giving workshops. I was asked to do one by, like, some arts organizations, and did that, and then I did some at a local art center. And then for a while, I taught workshops out of my own studio, because I just really, I really did enjoy, like, bringing students into my studio, and just like sharing with each other all week about art. And I think it makes me a better artist to try and. Figure out how to verbalize what I’m doing, makes me really think about what through it what I’m doing as well. So I think it benefits both the student and me when I’m teaching. And it’s not something I’ve been doing as much lately, because I just like, haven’t been able to divvy up my time well enough to give a lot of energy to teaching, but I will definitely get back to it, because it’s something I really enjoy doing,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:25

yeah, and I think also it really it’s another form of networking as well that I’ve noticed, you know, you meet other students, and then sometimes you have returned students, which is really nice, or, you know, you just start building another community of support and care, and then you see how their work develops if they continue painting as well. So I think that’s one of those almost passing it forward thing as an artist where, well, I was taught this, and now I want to teach it because I enjoy teaching, or because I think it will, you know, continue to forward this legacy of painting that we’ve all been holding on to since painting has been one of those very long held human traditions, which I think is also very poetic,

Unknown: 51:09

yeah for sure, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:11

And then speaking of workshops or exhibitions, do you have any upcoming shows? Anything that you would like to promote?

Stacey Peterson: 51:19

Um, I will say I am laying a little bit low this year. I know I shared with you already, but I broke my leg very badly about three months ago. So I have been like, learning how to walk, and I was off of my I was out away from the easel for two full months. So I started out this winter realizing that none of my galleries have any artwork because I had two months off right when I needed to be like finishing and framing stuff for all my galleries. So I have said no to a lot of shows this summer because I really want to work on just getting my work done and getting my galleries stocked. So I’m really just looking forward to all of my galleries everywhere having fresh work for the rest of this year. But I am very much looking forward to I was just invited to join plein air painters of America a few months ago, and so I will be going to their show in southern Utah in May, which is a paint out and then a show. So I’ll be doing a couple studio paintings for that. And really excited to get out there and paint with some amazing landscape painters who I’m really excited to learn from, and also be a part of the show, because it’s just a big honor. And then the oil painters of America show is in Steamboat Springs this year, which is a few hours from here, and I have a gallery right across the street, so I will be going up there for that one as well, for sure, just because they’re always so great to attend so but yeah, beyond those two, I am just really trying to, like, lock in and support my galleries this year, because I ended last year in an unconventional way.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:58

So, yes, yes, that sounds awful. You would think that you’ll be able to paint, though, but it seems a little uncomfortable to try to paint with a giant cast on your leg.

Stacey Peterson: 53:10

I did, I will say, I will say, art got me through. I sat. I was kind of stuck on the couch for a couple months. I was completely non weight bearing, and I felt like I couldn’t oil paint, because it was hard to figure out, like a setup that wasn’t going to, like, destroy my couch in my living room or wherever I was sitting. But I did pick up. I started doing acrylic gouache, and so I did a ton of studies, like I did one a day almost the whole time that I was non weight bearing, and they’re not something I would sell, but it was super inspiring, and got me really excited to get back in the studio. So I will say I did do art. It just wasn’t what I give my galleries.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:50

So yes, yeah, it’s good, because it keeps the practice going. And then, I mean, what else are you going to want to do when you were forced to sit

Stacey Peterson: 53:59

around exactly? I was so grateful. I was like, Oh my gosh. I am so glad I can do this.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:05

So yes, yeah, I think a lot of artists would be very happy to have a forced, forced time to paint. Yeah, oh man. But then if someone wants to see your gorgeous work, whether in person or virtually, where can they see your work?

Stacey Peterson: 54:24

Sure thing. Um, so my website is Stacy peterson.com as simple as it gets, make sure you spell my name right. It’s S, T, A, C, E, y, I have work on Instagram, Facebook and tick tock all under Stacy Peterson art, if you just Google that. And then I have galleries throughout the Rocky Mountain West that show my work. I have sex galleries, which is here in Cherry Creek in Denver. I have wild horse Gallery, which is up in Steamboat Springs, Colorado for. F, O, R, fine art, which is up in white fish Montana and big fork Montana. And then Turner fine art, which is in Jackson Wyoming, and Ballard’s fine art, which is in Sheridan Wyoming. I’m trying to think, am I forgetting, oh, OB, joyful Gallery, which is in Crested Butte, Colorado. So I think I don’t think I missed anyone, but yeah, they’re all mostly up in ski towns. But yeah, stop and do a gallery. That’s where I sell all my work.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:32

So awesome. Well, thank you so much, Stacey, for the very inspiring, actually inspiring and interesting conversation, I definitely changed my perspective on engineering. It feels like we’re engineering paintings now. Oh man. Well, thanks again for being on

Stacey Peterson: 55:53

the show. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. It was fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:58

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast, your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Stephanie Marzella, a painter living in Charleston, South Carolina, with a preference for painting intimate landscapes that pull the viewer into the scene as well as big sky landscapes that provide an escape to peace and tranquility. Stephanie discusses her artistic journey, emphasizing discipline and perseverance. She tells us how she transitioned from textile design to oil painting, and how she was influenced by the American tonalists. Stephanie highlights the importance of having a cohesive body of work, having the courage to paint what you want, and suggests making strategic moves if possible; In her case, she moved to Charleston for better artistic opportunities. She shares her experiences with social media, galleries, and the challenges of being an artist, including financial struggles and the need for a supportive environment. She stresses the significance of emotional connection in her work and the joy of seeing her paintings evoke strong reactions in viewers and discusses her spiritual approach to painting, emphasizing the emotional connection between her work and the viewer, which she believes completes the artistic process. Finally, Stephanie lists her current and upcoming exhibitions, including shows at Reinhardt Fine Art, Ballards Fine Art, and the Southeastern Wildlife Expo.

Stephanie’s FASO site:
stephaniemarzella.com/

Stephanie’s Social Media:
instagram.com/stephaniemarzella/

facebook.com/stephanie.marzella.5

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Transcript:

Stephanie Marzella: 0:00

Your heart and soul is tied to your work. It takes courage to paint what you want. Artists are willing to go out on a limb. You know, because, like flying without a net, it takes a lot of courage to be an artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:17

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights for today’s episode, we sat down with Stephanie marzella, a painter living in Charleston, South Carolina, with a preference for painting intimate landscapes that pull the viewer into the scene, as well as Big Sky landscapes that provide an escape to peace and tranquility. Stephanie discusses her artistic journey emphasizing discipline and perseverance. She tells us how she transitioned from textile design to oil painting and how she was influenced by the American tonalists. Stephanie highlights the importance of having a cohesive body of work, having the courage to paint what you want, and suggests making strategic moves if possible. In her case, she moved to Charleston for better artistic opportunities. She shares her experiences with social media, galleries and the challenges of being an artist, including financial struggles and the need for a supportive environment, she stresses the significance of emotional connection in her work and the joy of seeing her paintings evoke strong reactions in viewers, and discusses her spiritual approach to painting, emphasizing the emotional connection between her work And the viewer, which she believes completes the artistic process. Finally, Stephanie lists her current and upcoming exhibitions, including shows at Reinhardt fine art, Ballard’s fine art and the southeastern wildlife Expo. Welcome Stephanie to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? I’m good. How are you today? I’m great. I’m so excited to have you because you are so down to earth. And funny enough, I feel like your work is so magical and mystical. It’s dreamy. So it’s such an interesting reflection of your inner world when you yourself are so down to earth. So I am excited to pick your brain about your extremely beautiful, mystical, amazing tonalist and colorful pieces. But before we dive into your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Stephanie Marzella: 2:32

Well, I’m Stephanie marzella. I’m a landscape painter, and I live in Charleston, South Carolina that I moved to almost 10 years ago now, and mother, daughter, sister, dog lover, nature lover, definitely outdoorsy. Do a lot of walking. And I don’t know that’s a good question. Who am I?

Laura Arango Baier: 3:02

Yeah, it is. I think that’s a perpetual that’s a pretty deep question. Every day I ask that question, yeah, it’s one of those stare in the mirror questions and then dissociate and then get back to work. Right, right. Yeah. Too much time on that? Oh, yeah. But I think, you know, the synopsis you gave is quite accurate and quite great, because it leads right into the next question, which you have quite a unique answer to, compared to many of my past guests. And that is, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist.

Stephanie Marzella: 3:42

I, unlike many of the other artists that I’ve heard interviewed, I did not, at a young age, have some child prodigy esque experience that was like, you’re going to be an artist. It wasn’t like that at all for me. So I, however, I did have a really profound connection to nature, and that’s when I think back to like how that came about. I think that had a lot to do with it. We had a, I come from a Italian family, not a very outdoorsy bunch at all. My mom always was dressed up every day, and, you know, ready for the day, and there was no no go into the park, or, you know, going not up, yeah, definitely not a nature loving family so, but we had amazing backyard that had woods and that led down to a ravine. And, you know, back in the day, you were allowed to go out and play and, you know, experience stuff. So I would go down there, and, you know, climb down the side of the ravine. And then there was, like this babling, Crick. You know, we always said Crick, but. Creek since I’ve moved east, but, um, and I would, I would just sit down there and just, you know, watch the sun sparkle on the water, and just like listening to the sounds of nature, and climbed a lot of trees. And so nature was always, I like to be in the woods, and I really liked trees, so spent a lot of time down there. I don’t think my mom really enjoyed like that, but, um, I did and but it wasn’t, it wasn’t the classical route. I mean, I hear a lot of people saying, Oh, I knew when they came out of the womb that I was going to be an artist. That wasn’t the case. I did appreciate beauty. I appreciate sun. I always love sunsets. Still, my paint a lot of sunsets. I always love the sky and but I, when I I was very lucky to, well, I’ll go back to junior high school, my first real awareness, I used to color a lot, color inside the lines, very perfect and lot of crafts, you know, back in the day, stuff like that. But I in junior high school, I started taking art classes, and I was always interested in the arts. Though, my mother was a dress designer, a performer. She was in the theater, she sang at nightclubs, so it was like always, in that respect, she was very a major influence as far as the arts, and she appreciated the arts. Thank goodness. So because I don’t think I would have went to art school if my mom really didn’t appreciate the arts. So I am very thankful for that. But in like, seventh or eighth grade, I started taking art classes, and I could tell that I was, you know, better than a lot of the kids around me. I really enjoyed it, and that was kind of my first interest in it, in it. But then in high school, we had a vocational high school, so you could either go the college route, or you could go. You could become a cosmetologist or mechanic or a print typesetter or whatever those kinds of things. You could major in commercial art, and you would have like commercial art all day long. But I didn’t want to go into commercial art. But I, you know, I started focusing more on art, but I was focusing on all the arts. And I really didn’t know if I was going to go to art school or go to, like, school for theater or something like that. But, um, I just, I just, I had a really amazing high school art teacher. Just just, I mean, those those teachers are really, really important. So I was really fortunate because I wasn’t going to go the college route, so I filled all my credits for English through the theater. So I never took speech, you know, I never did anything like traditionally, and I never took math after science after ninth grade. I was in all these advanced classes, but I just was like, I don’t want to do any of this stuff. I know I don’t want to do any of this stuff. And by 11th grade, I didn’t I could have graduated. I had all my credits to graduate. So I was like, should I graduate? And I was like, No, I don’t want to do that. Want to have fun. So in my 12th grade year, I decided I was going to go to art school, and I focused on getting a portfolio together, pretty much for my whole 12th grade year. But I had art four hours, visual arts four hours a day, and I had theater an hour a day, and I had like, singing classes, like an hour a day. That was pretty much my whole high school thing. So I had a lot of time to and my teacher was great, all kinds of mixed media. You know, we did everything. We did drawings and, you know, every kind of medium. So he exposed us to a lot, really, really, really fabulous teacher. And that was my path to to it. But it wasn’t, it wasn’t drawing amazing things when I was three or anything like that. So I speak to the people who can come to it a little bit later in life, you know. And that it’s not always, oh, God, I don’t know how you would say it, you know, everybody uses the word passion, you know. And of course, we all have, you know, it takes a lot to be an artist. It’s, it’s not an easy career. And I equate the word discipline and drive, you know, you know, natural talent is great, you know, but you can learn, you can learn to have talent, you know, with perseverance. So I think that that’s really important, and that it’s not always you’re not always born with it,

Laura Arango Baier: 9:48

yes, yeah. And it’s great that you mentioned that, because I think a lot of people put this glass ceiling on themselves very often, about how far they think they can go, versus. How far they can really go if they want to, right? It’s that, like you said, perseverance. So it’s pushing past the I mean, there’s nothing better than at least that I’ve experienced, like, coming from spite where someone says he can’t do that, and then you just go, like, watch,

Stephanie Marzella: 10:20

yeah, I’m gonna do it right. Drives you exactly whatever it takes to create that drive. Hopefully it’s not too negatively based. But you know, whatever makes you do it

Laura Arango Baier: 10:34

is good, yeah, for sure, yeah. And even if someone is talented. I mean, if they’re not even using it, or if they’re not doing anything with it, I mean that the person that’s working their butt off to get somewhere is always going to get farther than someone who’s just sitting around like, Yeah, I’m talented, not painting. I don’t gotta. So you have to

Stephanie Marzella: 10:56

enact, you know, you have to enact it and drive, drive, persevere arts, because, you know, there is days you really have to push yourself, you know, or you know, we all will get into that. But anyways, I wanted to say that I went to the a five year bachelor of fine arts program at the Cleveland Institute of Art, and grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and didn’t go far for college, but it was an amazing school right across the street from the Cleveland Museum of Art, which is an amazing museum still free to this day, and it was and it was a great education, but I don’t think a lot of people know this. I was majoring in glassblowing, so that was my major until, like, my fourth year, and then, and I was in ceramics and stuff, and I was doing a lot of three dimensional stuff, and I was just like, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to, from the, you know, from the idea in my head to the third dimension, I don’t want to go that many steps. And I really didn’t think I would build a hot shop in my like I didn’t see myself going out and monitoring glass at two o’clock in the morning and everything. Although I really loved I loved it, but I switched to textile surface design, textile design and and I majored in textile design and drawing and glass or minored in glass blowing. So I really loved textile design. My mom was a designer. I grew up around sewing and fabric and all that stuff. I love repeat, interlocking repeats, making them really fluid, where people can’t see the lock, you know, all that stuff. So and that was the basis when I graduated from school, I got a job at a wallpaper company, and I started out as a colorist. So when you start out, that’s the lowest level. So you’re a colorist. And we this is prior to computers and all that. And if you ever looked at wallpaper book, so that was popular, as I used to be, but you would like see the same designs and different color combinations, and we were responsible for all those color combinations, and we, we hand painted them all with gouache, you know. So it was really and, you know, all the colors had to sit flat on the wall. Nothing could pop forward or anything. So we, you know, I learned how to work with color, like a lot of color, which continues till this day, even though I do a lot of tonalist work as well, but I use a lot of color.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:31

So, yes, you have an unlimited palette.

Stephanie Marzella: 13:36

I do, I do. I wish. Sometimes I wish I didn’t. Because, you know, I don’t, I don’t travel a ton, but when I do, everybody’s, you know, oh, I’m bringing four colors, you know, I can make all the colors from four or and I’m just like, Oh, my God, oh, speaking of, I’m going to show you unlimited but there’s unlimited palette. Yes, it’s like, there’s probably like 60, I mean, there’s like 60 colors on there. So it’s very hard for me to narrow that down when I travel and I’m very seduced by paint. When I go on the art supply store, I really like, Oh, that’s a new color. Oh, I gotta try that, you know. So I, I wish I had a palette would make things a lot easier.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:23

But then I think the way that you work, from what I’ve seen, is so intuitive that it’s really, you can’t really cage that intuition into just a few colors very easily. But it’s, it is really nice. So to see your tonalist work, which is literally like one color the opposite, yeah, which is exactly total opposite, so you could travel with one.

Stephanie Marzella: 14:50

I really do like, I like, when I one of my, my first plein air events, plan air east, and I did a i. I was a nervous wreck there, but I did a tonal it. I did Tona list pieces, pure sepia toned pieces for like, my competition pieces, which were completely different than everyone else’s, you know. And I know that people were thinking, What is she doing, you know, what is that? What is that brown painting she’s doing? But I loved it. I think they’re amazing. And I had transitioned from working in a lot of different mediums. When I first left the I moved to Chicago with my husband. He was a went to the Cleveland Institute of Art too, and he was a toy designer, and his job paid more than mine. So we moved to Chicago, and then I started freelancing, and was doing wallpaper and fabric design in our apartment. And then I had my son, like, a year later, and I worked in my apartment doing that. And whenever I had free time, I would experiment. I used wash, you know, so I started painting, doing my own artwork and in between freelance jobs. So and I painted everything in that apartment, my teapots, my teacups, my carrots, fruit, everything. And my poor son spent a lot of time in his swing while I was doing my freelance work. But and I and then I started working with like gouache, obviously, because that’s what I did for my job. But then I added past. I was doing mixed medias with pastels, and then I, you know, had acrylics and, like, it just was mixing, like, everything together. And then I phased out of slowly, we moved to Rhode Island, and we lived there for 28 years, and I started slowly doing less freelance work and did predominantly all for years, I did pastels, and I always worked on a dark ground. So I would work on a dark ground, you know, dark to light. I made a conscious decision to switch to oils, because the galleries, well, that was back in the day when they were framing pastels with mats, not the way they frame them now, with no mats, which is fabulous, and you’d ship them, and, you know, the glass and everything, and then the people would get it, and the pastel was on the mat, and then you get it back, you had to reframe it, you know, remat it, and everything. And a lot of galleries didn’t want to show work under glass. So I was like, I’m going to, I got an article in pastel Journal magazine with my, you know, when I had started doing the big skies, low horizons, and then I was so proud of that, and then I promptly switched to oils. And I was like, I didn’t want to fall back on pastels, so I had, like, 1000s of dollars of pastels. I taped them all up in boxes, brought them down into the basement, and I had one, a set of oils, like several years before, at the Copley Society of Art, I was a member there. And it was funny. It was, it was a mixed media piece, like with was my girlfriend’s daughter actually, which I hardly ever do people but, and when they gave me the award, it had like a blurb next to it, like a paragraph. And the award said, We think you should be painting in oils, basically, you know, it said what it liked about the piece and the energy in it and everything. But you should be painting in oils. And I won this really gorgeous set in this gorgeous wooden box of Windsor Newton oil paints with brushes and mediums and everything. Was very seductive, but I had tried it when my kids were little, and then I was using, like, some kind of, I don’t know, terpenoid or something that smelled like oranges. And I was just like, this is going to kill my kids. So like, I don’t, I didn’t like the smell of it, and I was just like, I just don’t think this is healthy. So I just kept with pastels and washed. I was, I used to do big wash still lifes and lots and lots of still lives. So then I went, when I switched to oil the white canvas, having come from a medium where I was working dark to light, the white canvas just was a It was awful. It was like a stumbling block. I couldn’t get the depth. Everything looked cartoony to me, like I just couldn’t get the depth that I wanted. And then I was reading an article. It might have been about Dennis Sheehan or something. I don’t know. I know he how he starts tonally. And I was like, No, that makes complete sense to me. So I did not know how to oil, you know, I really didn’t had I experimented with oils in college, but definitely not the way I do. And I glaze with oils. And I’m very calculating. My process is really slow, but so I started like, I would just paint the whole canvas. Brown, just brown. Like, there’s one behind me that’s in the works, but dark, dark brown the whole canvas, and with really energetic, giant like brushes like this, you know, so like, when I was starting a piece of just, like, warming up, you know, just like, really big strokes, very abstract, cover the whole canvas and then wipe out my image, you know, like wipe out, wiped out the water. Wipe all with towels and rags and cotton balls and Q tips and whatever. And then I have to let that completely dry. And that’s where, then, that’s where all the color comes in. So then that has to completely dry. I work a lot of pieces at one time, and there’s usually like 20 to 40 of them in the studio. And then if the gallery needs something or something, I’ll, I’ll pull something out of the lineup and maybe concentrate on that more to get it, you know, to get it to wherever it needs to be. But then I start building color on there with Windsor and Newton blending and glazing medium. And do want to give a shout out to Gamblin for that their ash color, Ash phalto, because that’s what I do all my tonals. And it’s one color. There’s not more than one color, and it’s it’s a fabulous color. If they stopped making it, I would be very, very upset, and it, it can. It’s just super versatile, very warm brown. So that makes it easier, too. It’s one color.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:34

I totally jotted it down that sounds amazing,

Stephanie Marzella: 21:38

and that’s how I start, you know, it kind of came out organically, like, and I didn’t know how to oil paint, so in a way, this was, like a very kind of cautious way of delving into it, you know, like very thin layers, like very, very thin, transparent layers. And then you and you get colors that you would have never gotten because they’re shining through one another, you know. So it’s exactly, and you get a lot of mood, which brings us to tonalism, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 22:17

And I think that’s, yeah. It’s a very interesting thing that you landed on considering, you know, a lot of your paintings are so colorful, and which is technically kind of the opposite of tonalism. But then, of course, just tonalists that have works that are purely tonalist, and it’s such a particular genre. Why? Like, how did you land on tonalism as your your genre?

Stephanie Marzella: 22:47

Well, I, when I made the move to Rhode Island, that was really my first exposure to, like, the ocean and the way Rhode Island situated, we have, like, New Hampshire Vermont, met like and that was my first exposure to mountains, and I did a lot of hiking. I could kayak out of my backyard, and we had a really beautiful cove, and my studio faced the sunset. That was the first time I had a house where we built a studio. And, you know, because I’ve always had a studio in a extra room, a bedroom or something, you know, so I would, I was still painting, still lives and stuff. But I was, like, always looking at this amazing backyard, you know, where you could kayak out of it. So I started, I was always, I was mixing it up. So I started to do some landscapes, but I went to a show at the Boston Museum of Art, and I cannot, I tried to look it up. I tried to look it up to see that what the name of it was, something like Barbizon to Impressionism, or paths to Impressionism, or something. And I went with a friend, and that show just changed my life. It just sort of blew my mind. That was my first awareness of George Innis. I remember, like, the first time I saw a George Innis painting, and I was like, he paints, like I feel. He paints what I feel, the spirituality of nature, which to me, is like my, I guess it’s like my church, you know, I that’s where I feel the best out in nature. So, but this was my first time where I was like, people, the mood, you know, the emotion, like it just like, moved you to tears. And that was my first awareness of the American tonalists. And I was just like, I cannot wait to learn more about, you know, the American tonalist. And it was like, Dwight, try on, Bruce crane, twalkman, Lathrop, I mean, and I started collecting, like, antique books on them. I like read everything I could read about them. And I. Uh, I just George inniss son wrote a book about him. And like, you know, he was wild. He would like, go into people’s houses when they weren’t home, and like, take paintings they bought, and like, change them. Like, take them back to a studio, change them, you know, they’d come home. It’d be like, different. But it was the first time I was like, when you become a landscape painter, you have to find your own style, which is completely different than the style I had when I was painting still lives. You know, you have to, sort of, you have to develop it. You have to come into your own so that, you know, when people walk into a room, they’re like, that’s a Stephanie marzella right there. You know, that’s what I hope anyways. And it was the first time I felt like it sort of gave me license, which is funny, to paint what I feel, not what I see, you know. And a lot of times, like, when I was be at a plein air event and people come behind me, they’d be like, the sky, sky doesn’t have any clouds in it. That tree’s not in the middle of, you know, or like, you know, that trees in the middle, it’s not on the side or whatever. And I’ve never like all as much as I admire artists who, you know, like, then, like, they show their painting in the midst of a landscape and it matches exactly. And I’m just like, the colors match exactly, and you can’t even tell the paintings there. And it’s like, I’m blown away by that. I’m amazed by that. But I I am there to, you know, put my spin on it. I never paint what’s in front of me. I paint what it makes me feel, you know. And I hope that, I think that’s the strength of my work. It moves, I hope it moves people, you know, emotionally, that they’re not just like, oh, that’s a that looks like a photo. You know, a lot of people think that’s a compliment, but I really don’t, but

Laura Arango Baier: 26:43

yeah, it’s 5050, I think, you know, I think some well meaning people mean it as a compliment, but a lot of artists, a good number of artists, are like, no, but no, like, Yeah, I can’t, please don’t reduce me to a tiny thing that’s attached to your phone, yeah, because it takes so much more work and interpretation than you know. I mean cameras, as we know, and this is a tiny little rant, but cameras, they flatten all the values to get rid of all the pretty colors, all the nuance, so I understand why, you know, well meaning people might say it’s like a picture, and then it’s like, I’m gonna pretend that that’s a good thing. Thank you. Oh my gosh, yes. I can only draw stick figures a penny for every time. We’d be so rich, all of us artists, speaking of, yeah, speaking of artists, too, I think that’s one of those words that I like to ask some of my guests about. And I wanted to ask you, what does it mean for you to be an artist?

Stephanie Marzella: 27:53

I think artists are willing to go out on a limb, you know, because, like flying without a net. It takes a lot of courage to be an artist. It takes a lot of courage for a parent to send their kid to art school too, you know? And artists are young at heart like they don’t. You know, I have artist friends who are, you know, almost 80 or in their 80s, and they, you would never know it. There’s no it’s like a ageless. It’s ageless. Everybody is hard working, they’re fun, they’re adventurous, they’re still out there in nature, they’re still camping, they’re traveling. It’s a pretty unique group of people, and I’m honored to be that. That is what I I can do for a career. But, um, I think that a lot of people may have, like, a misnomer, that we’re just having fun, you know, like, you know, everybody’s just like, you get to paint all day, you know, and but there’s like, so much more to it, and you’re not sitting in front of your easel, you know, like going, it’s you, you have. I am exhausted after a day of painting. It’s like a trillion decisions. Every mark you make is a decision. And sometimes we talked about this the other day, like, you make a mark, you do something that’s amazing, like, and you’re like, I can’t even believe I just did that. And in the next minute, you destroy it accidentally. And you’re just like, No one’s ever gonna say that it doesn’t exist anymore, you know, but it’s, I hope I leave a mark, you know? I mean, who knows? You know what’s gonna go down in history anymore, but you know, I think I’ve made my my mark, and I. I’m, you know, I’m proud of that so, but I I’m just lucky to be one an artist, your heart and soul is tied to your work. You know, like not underestimating or because I’ve never really even done that many traditional jobs, but like, sometimes I think, oh, it would be nice to have a job where I’m not emotionally attached to it, you know, my work is emotional, and I put a lot of effort into it. And then, you know, when, when you have it out there on the market too, or, you know, in a, you know, a flurry of sales, and you’re flying high, or, and then all of a sudden, there’s a month you’re just like, what’s happening? Am I going to be able to pay my mortgage? You know, that is not easy. So when people are like, Oh, you’re an artist, you’re so lucky. I mean, they they really have no idea what what they are talking about as far as the scope of what it takes to be an artist. And we do, I think collectively, we do have a joy of life that a lot of people don’t have. And, you know, we will take the time to, like, go chase a hurricane, you know, to take photos and to, you know, sit somewhere, to watch sunset and to walk in the woods and do all that stuff. You know, that’s like an added plus, but it takes tenacity, man, perseverance. Discipline. Discipline is the biggest thing. If you don’t have discipline, you are not going to be able to get over those hurdles when you’re questioning your talent. You know when you haven’t had sales for a while, when social looking at social media, and you know, every you know, everyone posts. You know we’re not going to post, oh, having a bad day today, or, you know, painted horribly today. You know we’re going to paint our triumphs, our accolades, you know. And sometimes that’s hard, you know, if you’re in a slump, and then you see, you know other, your friends, whatever, your colleagues winning awards or doing this or that. And it’s it’s discipline that gets you through that. And the best thing as soon as soon as you get back to these zones, soon as you start painting, you go into that zone, and you know that is the best remedy for any of those, especially the down moments, is to just get back to your easel. That’s that’s the place you need to be, you know. But there’s a lot of other things it takes to be an artist, too. You know. There’s a lot of the business of art, networking, shipping, creating, packing, unpacking, ordering frames, ordering supplies. Yeah, that’s what it means for me be an artist. I love it, and it’s a lot of hard work. It is.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:56

I mean, with great freedom comes great responsibility. And I totally agree with your how you’ve how you’ve seen you know people who you know you you see them and they just, they’re so ageless, but they’re 80, and they’re so bright and so youthful, right? It’s like I was literally just saying, like, yeah, you know, maybe the fountain of youth is just having a creative career, because you have this way of, like, getting out all of these, these things that a lot of people keep inside of them, and then, you know, kind of haunts them. But also, like the typical day job can be so monotonous and sad, and I feel like when you’re an artist, it’s very much not monotonous, like it’s a whole new painting every time. It’s a whole new demon you got to face. It’s a whole new mountain to climb, in your case, whole new tree to climb, if you want. So it’s, it’s very it’s much more what’s the word? There’s, there’s just something new every day, compared to, you know, the typical day job that a lot of people would have, and it never, it never

Stephanie Marzella: 34:03

gets easier, if any, if anything, it gets harder. I’ve talked to a lot of my artist friends. Sometimes they’re like, gosh, you know, I just was looking back at some old work of mine. And I think that sometimes I think my older work was better, you know, and you’re just always trying to top yourself. And every to me, every painting is a is a puzzle. You know, it’s like solving a puzzle. And then, you know, people always ask you, when, how do you know when a painting is done? That question and all the only I’m actually trying to leave a painting sooner than that’s one of my goals, is to leave a painting sooner than I would have in the past. Think it’s a Virgo thing, but just to leave it alone, you know. And like, you know, people always, you know, as artists, we send photos and stuff to our friends, like, this is what I’m working on, you know. And they’re like, it’s. Done, you know? And you’re like, No, it looks better in the photo, you know, it’s, it’s not done, but, um, just to, I want to try to, like, not be so what I consider, like perfect, you know, about stuff, I want to, I want to leave some unfinished quality, like, not unfinished, but I like to leave a layer. I like to leave a layer, since I glaze something from every light layer exposed. Still, I don’t, you know, I want there to be proof of, like, kind of each layer. And not sure, I think I trailed off there.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:39

But, no, I think it’s, it’s an ever continuing dialog that an artist has with their work, right? Like it’s a conversation that spans not just like one painting, but it’s all the paintings forever and ever. And I think that’s really interesting, because that really, you know, makes me think more about, you know, how, as artists, we have these two sort of, like these two things that can happen to us, especially when we’re trained, which is, you and we talked about this last time, you know, the whole feeling of, you know, feeling this obligation to paint a particular thing, or to paint a particular subject, versus what do I actually want to paint? Right? And I think that’s one of the hard parts of especially, you know, probably throughout the entire career of an artist, but especially at the beginning, because it’s so easy to be so pulled in by obligation. But then I’ve noticed, at least with my work, that every painting I’ve done out of obligation, it’s just not, it doesn’t have that quality, you know, it’s missing that something, you know, it

Stephanie Marzella: 36:49

takes courage to paint what you want. Like, I’ve had people say, like, oh, or, you know, she says, I have the low horizon line, the big sky, you know? And that’s my that is my absolute favorite thing to paint, and it’s usually, if I go plein air painting, you know, that I’ll I come up with, like, sort of a, you know, different, kind of a different composition, which I do need to do that. But I, to me, my landscapes are, there’s such a huge abstract area, and every one of them, like, if anything, I’d like my work to be born abstract. So the whole, you know, it’s set in a like, I live in the low country here, but when I lived in Rhode Island, I was, I am in love with marshes, like I am not really. I can’t really paint the ocean very well. I’ve tried, but, like, marshes just really speak to me quiet water. And it has to do with my whole spirituality, reflectiveness, you know. And one of I told you this the other day, but one of my best experiences in my life was I lived on this tidal Cove, and moving to Rhode Island too was my first awareness of tides. You know, tides are huge and how much a tide can change a landscape. So you could paint the exact same view at a different hour every day, and it’s completely different, because the tides go in, they go out, they’re high, they’re low, Moon tides, whatever. And I that was really influential. And like I would see I, you know, that was my favorite time of the day when the water was absolutely still, which tend to happen, you know, at Slack tide, between the tides, but like at sunset, and it would just the water would just be still, you know, and it is. It’s like inner peace. It’s so peaceful. So I could kayak out of the backyard. And this was also besides the American tonalist, that was a changing point in my work. Was I was kayaking. It was like at sunset, and the water was completely reflecting the sky, but it was all peach, like a peach, like a coral, like satin. And was like paddling. It was like paddling through silk sharmoose, which is a fabric that’s like, so quiet and, you know, and that is just, that’s what it that is what I want to paint. That’s my favorite thing to paint, so and I have the whole sky in the water to do whatever I want. And I like to work with texture too. I use golden molding pace, if you like. Zoom in on some of my paintings on Instagram, you’ll see that there’s like, a texture there. And I do that sometime. I love different mediums. I love different it’s part of my problem too. When I go on a painting trip, is because I can’t say, oh, I have these four colors I use, and then this is the surface I always paint on. That’s the huge problem for me. I like to make I make some of my own surfaces. I paint on canvas, I paint on panel. I paint on panels that I make with golden molding paste on them. So it’s like gesso then molding paste, then gesso again, and just I get. I like that. You know, if I had a bigger studio and I had a big work table, like a flat work table, where I could do more kind of more experimenting, that would definitely be something I would love to have. But the like, I’m painting nature, but there’s a lot of abstract qualities in my work. So, like, I really like simple compositions, so that I can just have work with the beauty of paint itself, in the application of the paint and lost edges. And, you know, I like, like, it’s, I want it to be an escape, an escape from reality. That’s what, you know, I want. Like, I wanted to transport you somewhere I don’t really, I’m not, like, a site specific painter, you know, people say, like, where is that? And it’s collect, you know, it’s remembered. It’s pieces of this, pieces of that, like I do sometimes construct a painting on on the computer, where I take part of a marsh, you know, from over here, and a sky from another photograph that I took. I’m a horrible photographer, and just, you know, sort of piece it together for, like, an idea, you know. And then, sort of, I don’t, I know a lot of artists like, you know, seeing like, they work from these big screens, you know, they’re, they have, like, big screens, and they’re painting exactly what they see on the screen. And I cannot do that. I cannot do that. I mean, a lot of it is created in the process of painting the painting. And you never get Ramona young quest, and I talk about this all the time, but you, even though you have a style, and every you know you people know that that’s my work, every time I am starting a painting, it’s like, I’m still questioning which brush to grab, which color to choose, and I’m like, am I going to be able to Do it? Am I going to be able to figure this out? It doesn’t get it doesn’t get easier. It never gets easier. You know, still, like, is this the right brush for this? Like, like, sometimes you’re just but you do know what you’re doing, you know you do, but you feel like you’re reinventing the wheel every time. At least for me, it doesn’t, it doesn’t get any easier.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:22

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, you know, yes, I can totally relate to that, especially in the which, which brush should I use? Question, but what’s funny is that, in the end, right? You go through all this agonizing, right? You’re like struggling in front of this, this painting, which is kind of comical, if we think about it, but then in the end, it’ll still look like you’re painting, right?

Stephanie Marzella: 44:27

And that is the magic. That’s a, you know, it’s not magic, it’s discipline. You took years to develop that style, but there’s still, I told you the other day that I have brushes like this brush here. Let’s see. Know how to use this all right, my brushes are destroyed. I don’t I don’t even know what this brush is. I would have to pull all my brushes out and look at the, look at the and try to figure out even what brand it is. But like, I am jealous of artists who are like, Oh, I just got my new brush. Is, you know, and they use these set brushes, and they can do a whole painting with one brush, you know, I have, like, you can see, I’ll turn my computer. I have, like, a lot of brushes over there. I have brushes from college, still. I have brushes that look like a squirrel’s tail tied to a stick, you know, like, I don’t know how I mostly use chip brushes, like the little hardware store brushes. And I just, I just, sort of like I do. I wish I had, sometimes, I wish I had a set palette. I wish I had a set surface, you know. I wish I had a set size. I like to work, you know, just, I am just all over the place, and that’s kind of the excitement of it. But then it’s kind of a, kind of makes it more it kind of makes it more difficult sometimes, too. You know, like, it’s like, what surface should I paint, especially when I go, when, when I go plein air painting, like at the plein air events, I have to credit, we were talking about plein air the other day too, but I have to credit, like, point when I did plan air Easton, it really connected. I mean, I do recommend that I very get extremely stressed out at a point air event. And it took a little bit of the joy out of it for me, because I used to go plein air painting long before it was a thing with my old French easel, you know, and with my girlfriends. And there was just no pressure. We were just out there. We knew we drinking after, and it was just had a great day, you know. And there wasn’t a pressure to have a finished, sellable, award winning painting when you were done, you know. But that experience, and especially plenary Easton was, I highly recommend it, because it connected me to so many artists and and then, you know, social media, obviously, we didn’t have that when we were younger. So you could admire an artist on the west coast, but you know, you just read about them in a magazine. You know, it wasn’t like you had your phone number or anything. So like that is one you know, blessing with social media is to be able to reach out to people and have galleries reach out to you, and you know, to be have direct contact with people by, you know, through messaging and stuff, but the friendships and the valuable friendships and connections made through that event are everlasting, you know, so as much as I did not enjoy the anxiety of it, because I, you know, I admire the artists who are, like, out there, three, I’m good for a painting a day. It takes me forever, like, good five, six hours to do a painting, and then I’m exhausted. But, you know, some people go out morning, noon and night, and they’re, you know, they have a flashlight on their head, and they’re smoking cigarettes and talking to their friends, and they seem like they have limitless energy, and they’re really enjoying it too, you know. And they’re talented, you know, that was definitely not my experience, but that connection made in that world is, it’s fabulous. And those artists are really amazing. So I do recommend that. I do recommend it if, whether you’re doing it on the local level or national level, you know, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:13

And that actually seamlessly flows into, you know, the side that I like to, you know, ask, which is, you know, the more of the marketing, business side of being an artist. Because, since you’re, you know, since we’re discussing bit more of that networking aspect, you know, in your experience, do you find that networking has it helped your career a lot as an artist?

Stephanie Marzella: 48:39

Yes, of course. I’m trying to think of a specific example, but, um, yes. And I think the you know, with the galleries too, they’re they’re following you on social media. Now, my Instagram is 100% pretty much my artwork. And anybody who follows me on Facebook knows I love my dogs, so they’re heavily featured on my you know, my Facebook is art and my life, basically. But I think people, everybody has different opinions. But I think people like having a sense of who you are, you know, a little bit of a little peek into your life. You know how you live, or what you do, or what your kids look like, or what your studio looks like, you know, it makes it, it makes a connection that I think is is valuable, and it says who you are as a person, you know. So I don’t stick strictly to business with Facebook, but I think I, yeah, I think I make some pretty I don’t make a lot of moves, but I make strategic moves, you know, and like moving to Charleston was a strategic move. I lived in Rhode Island for 28 years, and I miss it greatly, and all my friendships there, but I. The New England art scene at the time. It’s coming back now, or, you know, there’s more, a little more options there, but there were not the amount of galleries that are here in Charleston, South Carolina, and people come here to buy art. And so that was I was like, living in a century home in Rhode Island. My job’s a mobile my husband’s job is mobile. And I was like, I know I can make a lot a better living down in South Carolina, you know, and I could get a new house with three prong plugs, which was very enticing after having a century home. And I know that my income will significantly go up. We moved to South Carolina, and we just did it. You know, took a long time to sell our house, but we picked up and we moved and that was everything I hoped it would be. You know, there is, like, a huge art community here. There’s, there was even more galleries when I moved down here. But, like, there’s, we have a French Quarter here with, like, a lot of galleries, you know, where you can walk, and, you know, every month they have an art walk, and you can just hop from gallery to gallery. And I’m very lucky to have the gallery that represents me now, rein art here in rein art, fine art in Charleston, and one of the finest galleries I’ve ever been represented by, with a really professional team in that gallery. And you know, it takes a long time to work up to that level. Now, I think I want to talk about some young artists like coming in. But back to social media. So like, I have been contacted by galleries through Instagram, and a lot of things came about organically. Like, I’m represented by Ballard’s fine art out in Sheridan Wyoming. And when I was my first awareness of her, you know, all of a sudden, I just started seeing her and her collection of art. And I was like, this woman has really amazing taste, you know, and I think she really represents some really nice, you know, really, really solid artists. So I just wrote her a note, because I she sort of came out of nowhere. And I was just like, I just wanted to say, I think you really post some really gorgeous work. I really respect the artists you collect. And it was, it was honest. It was just totally honest. And then she just wrote me back, you know, a few days later, and she’s like, I really like your work, you know, but you know, I love the emotion in it. I love the softness of it. And, you know, I’d love to have a couple of your pieces here at the gallery. And so that totally was, you know, messaging, just messaging somebody, you know, you never know what’s going to come out of it. And galleries are following you, you know, like on Instagram and stuff, you can see, you know, who’s following you. And that’s how it happens. A lot of times you see someone following you. You see them like, you know, repeatingly, you know, liking your work and stuff. And then you could tell. You could tell. And then, you know, then it’s like, I could tell they like my work, you know, either they reach out to me or I’m gonna, you know, I could reach out to them because you know that they’re looking, you know, every time you post the story or whatever, you know. So it’s information, it’s information. And I told you, I told you the story from back, back in the day, but when, before all of this stuff, they basically before the internet, was like, I was reading, I used to get pastel Journal Magazine, because I was a pastel artist, and I was just like, Man, I want to be in This magazine, you know. So I, and that was back in the day when we had slides, and we had a mask them off with silver tape. And, you know, if you wanted to be in something, you had to send a sheet of slides and, you know, type your resume and all that stuff. But I called and the Maggie price, the editor, or whatever, of the magazine, you know, I asked to speak to her, and I and she, you know, she got on the phone, which is amazing to me, and I just said, I said a little white lie. Just, I just said, I, you know, I’m curious how you can get, how you get featured in your magazine, because I would really like to be featured in your magazine. And I said I had a dream last night. I opened the magazine, and there was a story about my work that was not true. I was dreaming of being in the magazine and hoping I would be in an event. I didn’t actually have a dream, just, you know, a little spin on the words. And she said, Send me. You know, your work. She was a delight, and she passed away sadly, but she was a fabulous woman, and she, you know, like in that, you know, you had to mail everything out, and everything you know, wasn’t like anything. Nothing was immediate. It. And then I came home one day and, like, there was messages on the answering machine, you know, it was like her, and she’s like Stephanie, this is Maggie price. I’m gonna make your dreams come true. And I was featured in the magazine, and then I promptly take up all my pastels and switch to oils. But I just, you know, it was a beautiful article, you know. But it’s like, you know, a little creativity there. But it takes guts, you know. It takes guts to call, to make a blind call, takes guts every time you send your, you know, especially back in the day, every time you send those slides out and, you know, hope for the best and stuff like that, you know. And like, when I recently went on a trip with the wild women and Bob Baier, who’s a who’s a writer, was a writer for plein air magazine, you know, I was like, he’s probably looking for material, you know, fresh material to write about and stuff. And then I, you know, I contacted him, and I said, you know, I’m going to go on this trip with these fabulous women painters, and it might be something you’re interested in writing about, you know. And then he did. He wrote about it, you know. So it’s, and that’s all through social media. That’s all through just, you don’t even have to get the courage to call. You can just send a message, you know. I mean, it’s really, I mean, what’s the worst that can happen?

Laura Arango Baier: 56:26

Yeah, you don’t say no, and that’s it, right? Nothing to lose. Definitely. Yeah. And then you started mentioning too about, you know, younger artists and, like, you know, getting kind of, like, leveling up slowly. Do you mind expounding on that a little? Yeah, so

Stephanie Marzella: 56:45

I feel for younger artists today, and I’m very honest about my journey, like I gave you a little bit of things. So I was a textile designer. We moved I started freelancing, and had my kids, and then my free you know, in between jobs, I could experiment and start doing my own artwork. And that’s when I started to do my own artwork. I also got involved in a lot of a local we were in Chicago for a couple years. So, like, Chicago’s huge, and there’s a lot of there’s a lot of art stuff around Chicago, and Chicago a lot of art groups. And I got, didn’t know anybody you know, starting from scratch. So I joined, like, different art Evanston Art Center, and I don’t even know, like Schaumburg Art Center, all this stuff, and started meeting people that way, and like, getting a little more into art and exhibiting and entering competitions. In addition to doing my freelance work. Then my husband was a toy designer, and so he we moved to Rhode Island because he got a job at Hasbro So, and this is circling back to younger artists today, or single artists, or whatever, back in the you know, in the day, we didn’t have to have a cell phone plan, we didn’t have to have the internet. We weren’t paying off college debt from college tuitions that cost an exorbitant amount. You know, we could work a summer job and put a dent in our tuition. You know, nowadays you you know that is, you know, some, a lot of kids are leaving college with a huge financial debt to start their life out with, which I think is daunting, you know, and so. But we when I moved to Rhode Island, I was still freelancing and everything, but I was starting to do more and more artwork and exhibiting in galleries, local galleries, not really like but New England’s kind of small, a lot of so I was in galleries in Maine and Massachusetts and all around New England, and I’m going to lose my train of thought. Bring me back to what I was saying. Oh, so then I started, like, just doing a little bit more of that. But I was in a situation where I was married, I was taking care of kids. I had a studio in my home, and I had a partner who had a weekly paycheck and health insurance. Okay, so I know a lot of artists, when they’re interviewed, they, you know, they, they, I’m speaking for myself. I know they’re like, I worked really hard, hard. I worked at night, I had 10 jobs or whatever. But that wasn’t my case, and I think that a lot of a lot of women artists, a lot of my colleagues, you know, we were able to juggle being a wife, being a mother and like maybe freelancing, but also having time where, you know, we didn’t have to go out every single day to so that our family had health insurance or whatever, so we had that ability to juggle a lot of things and focus on art. Now I myself am not the kind of person who can. I need to paint natural daylight, so I can’t. I could do the business of art at night, but I am really, really disciplined that I’m in my studio. I like to work a. Day shift. I like to have my evenings to myself, so I don’t work around the clock, so I feel a little spoiled. I do think, if people speak realistically, there’s a lot of artists who had a partner of some kind, you know, a wife who was had a full time job, or husband who had a full time job that made it easier for the fine artists to become a fine artist or transition. You know, now, you know it’s now. I am no longer married, but I am with my longtime partner now, and he is a long haul trucker, so he’s gone all times. I could focus like 100% on my work, and it’s but, I think, but you know what I mean, I had that cushion. I think some people might have. I’m just trying to be real. Some people have family money. Some people, oh, and the only ways, so going back to that. So after I got divorced, when I the reason I was able to because my friend, a meaning. Friends are like, you’re not gonna be able to make it as an artist, you know? You better get realistic. You’re gonna need to go get a real job, you know? And I was just like, they don’t know me. They don’t know how determined I am. And I took class. I went to bartending school. It’s like worst case scenario, March end at night, you know, because it can’t paint at night and but I the reason I personally was able to continue was because our house appreciated in values so much. My husband and I bought a house. We had it for six years. We ended up getting divorced. That house appreciated a beautiful amount, and it was the profit on that house that gave me the cushion to make it from 2006 a good eight years where I had that to fall back on if I didn’t make enough money to pay the mortgage or something, you know. And it was still really scary. I taught, like, lessons in my house and, you know, mixed it up, but and then when I moved down here, it wasn’t until I moved down here and started getting it was started to be represented by Ryan art that, you know, it was a long haul. I’m 64 now. You know, it’s not like it happens overnight. And I just think if I was a young artist today, I think they have such a bigger challenge. So, like, either if I wasn’t in a relationship where somebody was bringing in stable income or something like that, I’d probably have, I would make a strategic move and I but I also would probably move somewhere affordable, like, maybe it’s not clear, close to a gallery scene or something, you know, but somewhere, and I am very willing to live very frugally, you know, maybe not in the best surroundings. And I would probably have roommates. You know, my daughter, she’s she lives in a loft in New York City, and she has like, five roommates, and they’re all artists of different types, but that’s how they do it, you know. And social media is a huge help. I mean, these younger kids have a they know all the tricks with social media and stuff, you know, and where that’s hard for me, you know, but I think it’s a much harder road for now. All we needed was a roof over our head and ramen noodles, pretty much, and you could live really affordably.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:45

So, yep, yeah, exactly. There’s so much more added on top of, like the starter pack, right for for an artist, especially now that you know, since you mentioned also social media, so much of it is content creation and recording this and photographing that, and that’s

Stephanie Marzella: 1:04:06

so time consuming. That’s so time consuming, like, I feel like I’m old fashioned, you know? And like, social media is a little bit of a chore for me, you know? It’s not something I gravitate I like when, before they change the algorithm? You know, I post a painting and get like, 5000 likes on it, you know, and now it’s like reels and like, the way it was before better, you know? But it’s just like, simply gotta stay out there, you know, you gotta keep your website going. You gotta, like, it’s a lot of work. But I just, I do feel for younger people, I think, I think it’s a little bit harder road.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:43

Yeah, and it’s definitely it also feels unpredictable, to say the least. Now that, you know, we have AI and we have all of these things happening all at once, that it’s like, oh my gosh, how can I even what’s even going to happen?

Stephanie Marzella: 1:04:59

It’s. It’s moving so fast, if it’s moving fast for you,

Unknown: 1:05:04

oh, goodness, yeah, imagine how fast it’s moving for

Stephanie Marzella: 1:05:07

us, you know. And it’s, yeah, you know, it’s a journey,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:13

wild, yes,

Stephanie Marzella: 1:05:15

it’s funny too, because I remember, like, you know, being I was a member of the Providence art club in Rhode Island, you know, just looking at the older women artists, like, you know, that you admired and and just thinking, wow, there’s like, they’re really up there in their careers, and I really admire them. I want to go talk to her, but like, I’m nervous too. And then all of a sudden, you’re that older woman artist, you know, you were saying, like, the joy of like, it just it takes, you know, it’s a long time, but it’s like, you know, to earn the sort of the respect you deserve in this industry. You know that you in this industry, and you know, and then before you know it, you’re the, you’re the 80 year old artist still doing it out there that people you know, time is like flying by, but you still feel like you’re young, you know, yeah, young in spirit. And that’s what I love about being an artist, you know, that never goes away.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:12

Hopefully, hopefully, yes. I was gonna say the same thing, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, do you have any final advice for someone out there who wants to become a full time artist,

Stephanie Marzella: 1:06:26

besides overcoming the financial struggles of it, I would say I’ve said it before in this interview, is, is, it’s discipline. It’s 100% discipline. I that’s the biggest thing I can attribute to making it in this career and making it through. I’m really emotional person. I can get depressed. I can get down. All my friends, know, you know, when I’m talking to them on the phone, I’m like, you know? But it’s perseverance, it’s, it is it really comes down to discipline. I think that’s the some people say, passion, whatever. I think it’s discipline now, it’s like, you gotta, you gotta get in that studio. You know, can’t be here and there, you know, granted, if you’re juggling a job that you know, that makes it a lot harder, but it’s just and you have to have a style now. So that’s one thing. Younger people ask me about approaching galleries. How did you do it? How did you approach galleries, or whatever? And the one thing is, you have to have a body of work. I mean, that’s, I think, and it has to be, it has to look like you did it all. You have to, you know, you have to have a style. You know, you don’t want to, unless your style is like, really, and you do. You can do whatever, people, dogs, landscape and it all, you know. You know, some artists can do everything. I wish I could, but I can’t, and my heart is in landscape. But the you have to have a solid body of work where it’s signature work, you know, like that. That’s who you are now, granted, our work is going to change gradually over a course of a career. But you can’t bring in, you know, approach a gallery with random different paintings, or, you know, different mediums. You have to look like you’re solid in what you’re doing, and they have to know you’re going to be producing that kind of work, and you’re going to be bringing it in regularly, you know, you know they can’t be when you when you get to this level, like, you know, my gallery, they call me. I probably missed a call of theirs a handful of times in the 10 years they’ve been, I don’t know how long it’s been, eight or nine years this, this gallery. I mean, they’re like, I don’t care what I’m doing. When they call, they’re I’m answering the phone, you know, and whatever they need. I’m very fortunate that my gallery is here in town, and they are responsible for the majority of my sales, and I could just paint the work and drive it downtown. I don’t have to pack it or ship it. I’m spoiled, you know. But it’s, again, lost my train of thought. But that’s, it’s, you know, tenacity, I don’t know, but and living with other people, sharing costs, sharing costs, you know, but the when you were approaching galleries like you have to Well, when I moved here, I was represented by a lovely gallery too, and a little bit smaller and but I would, I had no friends here at all. I didn’t know any, you know, I knew of the artist through social media, but I didn’t know any so I went. I would go every month, Charleston has a Art Walk, and I would start out at the gallery that represented me, dare Gallery, and that I would go right down every month, down to the best gallery. So it’s kind of like a line of them. And I made a point to make that people. Knew who I was, you know, I would be like, I’m new in town, blah, blah, blah, and I was there every month. And the part of the reason I think Reiner, I was always, I always ended the Art Walk at their gallery, because our gallery was the most fun. Had great food, and they, you know, represented some great people. And you have to really put, you know, you have to put yourself out there. You have to put yourself out there in the eye, you know, in that in the gallery. You just never know. So I wasn’t even really sure. I know I wanted to approach them eventually. I’m not even sure how it kind of organically came about. But someone had seen one of their buyers who only bought work from their gallery, saw my work somewhere else, and was very moved by it. And then that woman who I’ve never had the privilege of meeting, told Reinert gallery, you really need to check out this woman’s work. Nobody does skies like she does. And that’s how that came about, word of mouth, you know, you’re like you never know. And they took it to heart. You know, they checked out my work and but they knew me from coming in the gallery all the time, you know, and I had some friends represented there. So, you know, it’s good to get yourself out there. It’s not easy to move when you’re in your 50s. You know, I left friendships that you know, 30 year friendships in Rhode Island and art connections. All of our friends were artists, and to go start over somewhere new, to take a risk like that. But it often pays off. But you have to get yourself out there and like let people know who you are and that you moved there, and that you exist and that, you know, because I think a lot of artists are, you know, we’re, it’s weird. We’re extroverts and we’re introverts, you know, like, I am really, like a homebody, you know, I like to be, I like to be in my house, and I really admire the so many of my colleagues like travel, like, on a monthly basis. Like, I honestly, I’m very fortunate that I can make my living painting in my studio, you know. Like, I like to go on trips and stuff. I hate to leave. My dogs I hate and they’re costly to leave. But, um, like, the amount of different things artists are doing to make a living, you know, teaching, teaching workshops, traveling, then we’re traveling for inspiration and ideas. And it’s such a huge it’s like social media, traveling, teaching workshops, demonstrations, entering competitions. I’m not, I’m really not a competition enterer, but all the different things, it’s like, it’s a lot of hats,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:48

you know, yes, exactly. It’s so much to keep track of, but, you know, I love that. In the end, it’s what you said, you know, I’m grateful that I can do this, because there is, in my opinion, there’s a payoff, which is, you feel fulfilled, right? You feel like you wake up in the morning and it’s like, Huh? I’m at peace, you know? Like, yeah, maybe some days you can have, like, some some mood shifts, but in the end, you know, you go back to your easel and you’re painting, and you’re sending your work, and someone’s buying it and admiring it in their home. You know, it’s like, that’s kind of crazy. When you think about it, I

Stephanie Marzella: 1:13:29

never consider a piece finished. We’re tapping on it before. When is it done? To me, it’s done when I start, like, it’s when the puzzle is finished. You know, like I’m looking around a canvas, and I’m like, nothing’s sticking out weird to me anymore, you know, like I’m looking, looking, looking, come back, you know, give it fresh eyes, looking, looking, looking, put it aside for a day, and then just like, nothing’s because usually there’s something, it’s like, I don’t like that, like, what’s happened there that’s sticking out too much. And then when it finally has that, I call it the hum, when it’s just nothing is jumping out at me, saying, Okay, you gotta fix me, you know. And then that’s when it’s done for me. But to me, when a piece is truly finished, is this cheapens it somehow, like when someone buys it, but it’s when someone, I mean, think of the rare connection that is. So I’m expressing myself on Canvas. So, you know, I’ve taken years to to come up with this style or whatever, and it’s hanging on a wall in a gallery. And I do a lot of little pieces too. I always will do little pieces. They’re labor intensive. You do not get not cost effect is effective, but I always want, I love small art. I can mostly collect small art, and I love that. I always want to have something lower end cost wise for new collectors. You know, whatever I like, I like all I love small art, but it’s when someone com. Comes into a gallery they don’t even know you exist. They don’t even know your work exists. Some people are coming in to see your work specifically, okay, but that they see your painting. And I know that my work moves people because my gallery calls me and tells me somebody was crying in front of one of your paintings today, and they had told you the story where they called me one day and said this man who was not an art lover, didn’t frequent galleries, you know, was there with friends in Charleston visiting, and he started crying in front of one of my paintings. And like, his wife was just like, what’s going on, you know? Like, she was like, I think she was embarrassed or something. And he was just like, I don’t know what’s going on. Like, he’s like, I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t even know, like, what’s happening right now, there’s just something about this painting that’s, I don’t know it’s, it’s, and he couldn’t really verbalize it, you know. And that, you know, it connected to his heart, and it moved him and moved him to tears. You know, my paintings can move me to tears, but it’s because they’re frustrating me sometimes.

Unknown: 1:16:05

Anyways, the that is an amazing

Stephanie Marzella: 1:16:10

you know, it comes from my heart. I feel like painting. My painting is spiritual. It’s my spirituality. And, you know, you sort of, you do you sort of give birth to it. It never becomes normal. It’s not like a paint by number, you know, ABC. I do it this. I do it this way, and it’s done. It’s always this process. But to me, a painting is finished when it connects with somebody enough where they’re like, I have to own that. I have to live with that. I have to bring that into my home that is like, and they’re paying a chunk of money too, you know, it’s like a, it’s an amazing compliment that your work can move somebody that, that they’ll buy it, you know, because they have to, they have to Have it. That that is rare. I think, probably too rare, you know, but look how amazing that is. It is, you know, you were sitting in front of a white canvas, and all of a sudden this, you create this thing that’s attached to your heart and soul, and then it connects to somebody else’s heart and soul, and they buy it. That’s when it’s finished. That’s when the process is complete. That’s what I think,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:28

yeah, I totally agree. It’s, I think that’s one of the beauties of being an artist, is, you know, that connection that you just mentioned. And often, sometimes it can happen with multiple people too, or, like multiple people might like, you know, one painting or react to it. And of course, only one, one of them can purchase it, unless you sell prints. But I think, I think that’s the nice part. The really beautiful part of being an artist is connecting with people, you know, through emotion, through color, through experience. Because in the end, you know, we’re all, we’re all trying to figure this stuff out, too,

Unknown: 1:18:05

you know, right? Yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:09

But then, if someone did want to go see your work, are you, do you have any upcoming shows exhibitions, or do you have any work in your gallery?

Stephanie Marzella: 1:18:19

Year round at Reinhard fine art. They mean they don’t have specific shows. They just exhibit their artists work. And at Ballards in Wyoming, Ballards fine art. And right now I’m in in a guest as a guest artist at a loom gallery. My website, I’m in the South. I do the southeastern wildlife Expo. And a lot of people come to Charleston for that in February, I just had a show at Reinhardt, a two person show at Ryan art in October. And what is it? September, wild women are doing a show at the Thunderbird foundation, so I’m excited about that. And we’ll, we’ll plan our paint out there, and we’ll all get together, you know, and it’s, we’re friends and colleagues, and it’s, it’s a really, that’s a really great group, newer group, great group, powerful women with a lot of spirit and a lot of tenacity, I think, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:25

yes, yes. I’ve had the privilege of interviewing quite a few of you, and you’re all very wonderful, unique, spunky,

Unknown: 1:19:34

spunky women. I love it. It’s very inspiring.

Stephanie Marzella: 1:19:37

It’s a group. It’s like we’re wild at art, yeah, wild in spirit.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:46

Yeah. And then, do you mind telling us what your website and social media are?

Stephanie Marzella: 1:19:50

My website is www, Stephanie marzella.com easy. My name and my Instagram is Stephanie marzella. Am I forgetting Facebook? I’m forgetting anything. I don’t have a YouTube channel or anything like that. I’m impressed by you do all that stuff, but I’m easy to contact. Just google my name and, you know, I have like articles on my website Connect, you know, connected to my career and upcoming events, and as soon as I finish a painting, it gets put on my website.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:29

So, very disciplined, like you said, Well, I will be including all of your links in the show notes so our listeners can go check your stuff out and hopefully weep from joy, because it is very beautiful work to look at. Thank you. It’s so ethereal and magical. I totally recommend it.

Stephanie Marzella: 1:20:53

Thank you. I hope that I like that. I do think it’s magical.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:59

It is. I love it, yeah? So thank you so much for being a guest on the show today.

Stephanie Marzella: 1:21:05

Thank you for having me, and it was really nice to meet you too. Yeah, yeah, you too. So I will be listening for your next podcast after this.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:15

Heck yeah. I hope so. All

Stephanie Marzella: 1:21:17

right, well, have a good night. Now. You’re in the you’re in the night time already, right? So have a good, relaxing evening. Thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:25

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Miriam Schulman, a New York–based artist, author of the book Artpreneur, and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. Miriam left a Wall Street career after 9/11 and has since built a long-term, sustainable art business while coaching other artists on marketing and mindset. She explains how sales training at a gym gave her the “aha” moment that sales skills are transferable and can be used to successfully sell art. A core theme of her book Artpreneur is choosing to believe you are an artist, claiming that identity early and confidently rather than waiting for external permission. Miriam identifies common mistakes artists make, especially underpricing their work and assuming “cheaper is easier to sell,” arguing instead that higher prices signal trust, quality, and a better collector experience. She strongly advocates for email marketing over social media, detailing why email vastly outperforms Instagram in engagement and how artists should collect addresses and email weekly in a personal, story‑driven way. Finally, she recommends LinkedIn and YouTube (used thoughtfully and collector‑focused) as better long‑term platforms than Instagram, and closes by urging artists to “keep marching forward,” taking consistent steps rather than freezing in fear or blaming external circumstances.

Get your free first chapter here!

schulmanart.com/believe/

Order Artpreneur here:

artpreneurbook.com

The Inspiration Place Podcast:

schulmanart.com/podcast/

Episodes mentioned:

• The Inspiration Place Episode 342: How She Sells Art on YouTube ft. Aramis Hamer

• The Inspiration Place Episode 357: The Artist’s Guide to Growing on Patreon ft. Aramis Hamer

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Transcript:

Miriam Schulman: 0:00

Okay, so the biggest mistake people make is they believe that cheaper is easier to sell. So if you’re if your fur baby needed surgery that cost $2,000 and you have some sort of cream or neighbor down the street or down the hall, depending whether you live in an apartment or like I do, or wherever, and they say, Oh no, I know a guy who can do that same surgery for you for 200 bucks? No, you’re not doing that. You don’t because it’s a, it’s It’s trust. Is this for real? So money is one way to signal to people that you’re for real.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:35

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Miriam Schulman, a New York based artist, author of the book, artpreneur, and host of the inspiration plays podcast. Miriam left a Wall Street career after 911 and has since built a long term sustainable art business while coaching other artists on marketing and mindset. She explains how sales training at a gym gave her the aha moment that sales skills are transferable and can be used to successfully sell art. A core theme of her book, artpreneur is choosing to believe you’re an artist, claiming that identity early and confidently, rather than waiting for external permission. Miriam identifies common mistakes artists make, especially underpricing their work and assuming cheaper is easier to sell, arguing instead that higher prices signal trust quality and a better collector experience. She strongly advocates for email marketing over social media, detailing why email vastly outperforms Instagram and engagement and how artists should collect addresses and email weekly in a personal story driven way. Finally, she recommends LinkedIn and YouTube used thoughtfully and collector focused as better long term platforms than Instagram, and closes by urging artists to keep marching forward, taking consistent steps rather than freezing in fear or blaming external circumstances. Welcome Miriam to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? I’m good. How are you? I’m good. I’m really excited to have you, because you have one of the coolest books that I’ve seen, I have yet to read it. I’m excited, though, to read it, because you teach basically what I think every artist who listens to this podcast wants to know, especially artists who already have a good amount of work that they want to try to sell and put out there. So I’m really excited to pick your brain, especially about your book, as I mentioned, entrepreneur, which our listeners can go and check out. We do have the links in the show notes at this point, so go check it out. But before we dive in even more into your really awesome advice and tips, do you mind telling us a bit more about who you are and what you do, sure.

Miriam Schulman: 3:03

So I’m Miriam Shulman. I am, like you said, author of our preneur, host of the inspiration plays podcast. And I haven’t always been an artist. So I have been an artist since 2000 which, Whoa, that was 26 years ago. But when I was younger, I wanted to be an artist, but I was told you couldn’t make a living that way.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:23

Did you hear the same thing? Yep, unfortunately, yeah.

Miriam Schulman: 3:28

So I believe them. So I took the practical route and I went to Wall Street. But after 911 happened, I knew I couldn’t go back to that world. And at first, I still didn’t believe that I can make a living that way. So I painted on the side, and I was working at a gym selling personal training packages. And during that sales training, that’s when I had my aha moment. I saw, Oh, these sales strategies can be used to sell anything, including art. So that was 26 years ago or so, and I’ve been making a sustainable living ever since. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:09

That is awesome. And I think it’s even cooler that, you know, you went the practical route and then decided, no, I can’t, I can’t handle this, which I think a lot of artists that have actually interviewed on the podcast have had a very similar epiphany, where suddenly there where suddenly they’re like, I can’t see myself. You know, living in this environment, when I have this inner creative being that really wants to come out. And I think the missing piece, of course, is the part that you mentioned, that I think a lot of people appreciate, is the money making part. Because, of course, you can’t, can’t eat, can’t eat your paint, unfortunately. So it is good that you, you know, realize, like, Aha, you know, putting these things together that really helps to make sales. Because I think a lot of artists are very shy about selling their work, or they feel like it’s somehow different from other parts. Products, which it can be, in a sense, but the strategies are basically similar, right? So that actually brings me to two questions. The first one being, when did you decide, okay, I’m going to follow the path of the artist, even before you know, you decided to take the practical route. Was it a moment in your childhood, what was it? Okay?

Miriam Schulman: 5:22

So when I felt that I was an artist was way back in the fourth grade, my fourth grade teacher, I was the new girl in school, and my fourth grade teacher made me the class artist. Now I don’t know if I demonstrate was demonstrating any kind of talent back then, because my job as class artist was to glue toothpicks onto the pumpkin that was the jack o lantern, and the teacher decided what that design was. So like, clearly, did not require any talent, but her saying that to me, I chose to believe it. I chose to take on that identity. Oh, I’m an artist. Okay, yes, I’m an artist. So that’s why, in my book, artpreneur, I start with the chapter choose to believe, because that’s really the first step, is being able to look in the mirror and say, This is what an artist looks like, and being able to tell the world that

Laura Arango Baier: 6:21

absolutely, yeah. I think you know what? That’s probably one of the hardest hurdles for some people, is them, you know, feeling like, oh, is it safe for me to label myself this? Am I actually an artist? And I myself, have also struggled with that as like, am I? But am I? And I think that, yeah, changing that mindset into Yes, this is what I am. And I can, you know, I mean, I can have a side job and still be an artist, right? Like, at the core, it is what you are, right?

Miriam Schulman: 6:50

It’s that same moment in Harry Potter when Hagrid says you’re a wizard, Harry so it’s like, oh, I’m a wizard.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:57

Okay. Oh, that’s a great comparison. I love that. Yeah, no, it’s for sure. That’s the first hurdle. And then, actually, I wanted to ask you also, because since you went through this, you know, these stages of like, okay, I’m side job figuring stuff out. When did you realize? Okay, I want to help other artists figure this out too.

Miriam Schulman: 7:22

Okay, so I started my coaching practice in 2019 so that was a good 19 years of being a sustainable artist. Because I know I get a lot of snark on social media when people see my ads for coaching, they’re like, Oh, another artist who couldn’t make a living and now is teaching No my friend. I’m 57 years old. I’ve been doing this a very long time, but even before I started coaching other artists, I was doing it kind of for free, meaning, not my art for free, but giving people advice for free. So I wanted to be in masterminds with other artists. I would create these mastermind groups, but I ended up being their free coach. So my first step was not actually to start a coaching program. The first thing I did was actually put together the podcast. So I was giving advice, still giving advice for free. But then people started to ask me, oh Miriam, please coach me. Please take my money. Please become an artist, business coach. So I was following what my intuition, what the Muses in the world, what the universe was telling me,

Laura Arango Baier: 8:34

that’s awesome. And yeah, there are a lot of naysayers out there. I feel like there’s this horrible thing that people say or like, Oh, those who can’t do teach, which I think makes absolutely no sense, because no, almost every single artist I’ve interviewed has taught workshops or has taught other students, or has taught, you know, in some sense, whether it’s business, whether it’s painting, portrait, etc, it’s no it’s another source of income. And it’s really sad that teaching kind of gets so devalued into a stage of like, oh, you’re not you’re not real. It’s like, no, actually, in order for you to be able to teach, you have to be the legitimate thing. Otherwise you can’t. And then people would notice, right? So yeah,

Miriam Schulman: 9:17

I mean, there are plenty of coaches sometimes I stumble upon who are giving really bad advice because they didn’t do the thing first. I was like, and so sometimes I’ll do a whole YouTube episode. I won’t say Johnny so and so, I’ll just say, Oh, I saw this video, and the advice is really bad. And let me just tell you how it really works.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:39

Yes, yeah. And I think that’s one of those interesting thing that’s that’s happened with the internet, which we will talk more about the internet in a bit, which is, there’s just so much information out there, and there are so many people who are doing the fake it till you make it type of thing, to the point where they’re even when they make it, they’re still faking it. They haven’t actually learned anything. And I think that’s yeah, that gives a bad rep to the people who do know, yeah, do want to help? Yeah, yes, but yeah, at least, at least we can vouch for a fact that you know you do have your book has incredible tips. It’s very inspiring from what I’ve seen, and of course, on your website, you do have the first chapter available for anyone who’s interested in reading, which is really cool. I wanted to ask you also, because obviously, everything that you’ve written in your book, and everything that you’ve taught it has to be based on your own experience, your own mistakes, or, you know, any past one where you’re like, Oh man, I wish I’d known this. Let me help people so that they don’t make that same mistake. What would you say is the most common mistake that a lot of artists make when they’re trying to make a living? Okay?

Miriam Schulman: 10:52

Yes, I am going to answer that, but I also want to make sure the listeners know how to get a free the free chapter of my book, so I know everything’s linked in the show notes, but if you’re driving Shulman Art com slash, believe you can get chapter one absolutely free. Okay, so the biggest mistake people make is they believe that cheaper is easier to sell. I believed it too, like when I first started out, when I was doing my portraits, I didn’t know what to charge. I looked around, what are other people charging and then I charge less because I wanted to be affordable and I thought I was just starting out. No, not a good idea. Think, if you think about it from the customer’s point of view, think about from yourself. Let’s just think about yourself. Are you going around looking for the cheapest vet for your puppy? Or kitten? No, no. If you’re, what do you have? Laura, do you have a pet? I do not so sad. Okay, well, dog, yeah, okay, so our listeners do though they have fur babies. So if you’re, if your fur baby needed surgery that cost $2,000 and you have some sort of cream or neighbor down the street or down the hall, depending whether you live in an apartment or, like I do, or wherever, and they said, Oh no, I know a guy who can do that same surgery for you for 200 bucks. No, you’re not doing that. You don’t, because it’s a, it’s It’s trust. Is this for real? So money is one way to signal to people that you’re for real. And I had this experience actually on the other side, because I do collect art, there was an artist who I follow I really like, and they had their art for sale during Black Friday, and they they said it was an original painting for$1,000 and it was big, and they had it on sale for 750 and I kept sending her emails. It was like, Is it a print? Is it an embellished print? I ended up buying it. But even after I got it, I was like, looking at it. Did she fool me? Is this really hand painted? So it’s not a good idea to undersell your services. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:08

And also, I think, I think it’s because there’s two things that get really confused there, right? We have this, this sort of thought of, like in the regular market, right? You would think, Oh, you have, like, this loaf of bread and this loaf of bread and, like, one’s a little bit cheaper. I’ll take that, but that’s, you know, obviously you have tons of options of bread, and

Miriam Schulman: 13:28

they’re all, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, that’s if you’re choosing between petridge farm and wonder bread. Okay, exactly. But if you have a loaf of bread from petridge Farm, petridge, how do you say it? I have audiological processing, so whatever Wonder Bread, Wonder Bread, and it’s whatever, it’s $3 for the Wonder Bread. But then there’s a bakery where it’s freshly baked and it’s $12 yes, it’s more expensive, but what’s going to taste better? What are you going to slice up and serve to you know, when you meet whatever, when you have your boyfriend’s parents over for the first time, you know, like there’s, are you going to serve them wonder bread? Or are you going to serve them something from a fake or eight or if you’re bringing a loaf of bread over to somebody’s house because you’re a guest, are you going to bring a loaf of Wonder Bread? Never, never. No, you will. You will spend $12 or$20 I don’t know what the loaf of bread costs. I forget. I don’t like pay attention, because I want the loaf of bread from the bakery.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:33

Yes, yeah, exactly. I mean, you’re paying for the quality, and not just the quality that’s for. Also, like, okay, that Baker had to study that.

Miriam Schulman: 14:42

It’s not even that. It’s it’s not, it’s not even that. See, that’s thinking of somebody who’s a seller. Oh, you’re paying for their education. No, as a consumer, I don’t care how long the baker took to learn his craft. I care about what my mother in law is going to think, or the people I’m bringing the. For bread over I’m thinking about the experience

Laura Arango Baier: 15:03

that makes sense. That makes sense, yeah, I mean, I’m thinking also from the perspective of the artist, right? Because and this kind of ties back into the imposter feeling of like, oh, but am I an artist? Can I sell my work? It feels icky, right? It feels wrong to sell my work for so and it’s like, yeah, but you have years of experience, you have all of these amazing paintings that you can make that you know someone out there is totally gonna love, right?

Miriam Schulman: 15:33

Yeah, I get that. There’s that feeling. And you know what? You don’t have to sell your work. You don’t have to. You can be a hobby artist. Totally fine. It’s totally out. But if you want to make a living from your art, you got to get over that feeling. So I was coaching an artist. I’m going to shout her out, Megan Mayberry, she does these amazing headdresses. So she’s in Galveston, Texas, which is like, it’s like New Orleans as far as Mardi Gras and headdresses go. And when she first started coaching with me. She was telling me how she set up a booth, and she was letting people try on the their headdresses. I was like, Well, were you selling it? Were there any price that? No. And I said to her, Listen, every time you show up, there needs to be a shopping opportunity. And I was very hard on her, and she was very upset. But now fast forward, six months later, she’d made $30,000 in six months from her headdresses, but she said that was one of the most important lessons, was that everything is a shopping opportunity, and she has very, very creative ways of making it not feel icky to her or her customers, to make it feel like an experience. So for example, this January, she had a first cake night. So that first slice night, which is something I’m not as familiar with, Mardi Gras and those traditions. I don’t know if you are Laura, but this is like a thing, like the first cake, King’s cake, or something like that. There’s like a little baby in the cake. Is that it okay? Yeah, I have no idea so, but she invited bakers. It did a whole she did this whole thing, and it was just like, and she made 1000s of dollars with her headdresses in a week. But she made this experience because high end buyers want that experience. So it’s the experience, not the transaction, that’s going to matter. So yes, you do have to feel uncomfortable, but your success is on the other side of that discomfort. Totally.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:34

Yes, and that is a good point, because one of the comparisons that I’ve also heard is, you know, art comparing artists to luxury brands, because luxury brands also, they provide experience, right? Some, some really high end stores, you have to make an appointment to even be able to go in and look at their their purses or their shoes, and then they have, like, the really special catalog that only specific collectors get to see and they get to see it before everyone else, like, they have a bit of a tier system that I think a lot of artists don’t consider because, you know, we’re so used to seeing like, very normal like online shopping, or shop now, or like sale and all of these things that we don’t realize that. Yeah, I mean, if, if you want to sell to the people who really care about your work and who see it for what it’s worth, you also have to see your own work in the same vein, right? You have to see its own worth as well. Yeah, yes. And speaking of the internet, I think that’s been one of the biggest things for artists, especially in the last 26 years since, of course, before that, it was mostly galleries. Even in the early 2000s It was mostly galleries that were the quote, unquote gatekeepers, or like the ones who really call the shots. But now, with internet marketing, the internet internet you can sell through your website, it’s become a bit of a email marketing sort of situation that is what seems to help artists all the most, at least from what I’ve heard from multiple guests that I’ve had. Do you mind telling us a bit more about what are some of the best ways for artists to start collecting emails or start building a list. Maybe you know they’re starting from zero.

Miriam Schulman: 19:25

Yeah, okay, the number one way it sounds. It’s gonna sound so boring, but this is the number one way. Okay, I’m gonna model it for you. Hey, Laura, I have a show coming up. Would you like me to send you an invitation? Yeah, sure. Okay. What’s your email address? That’s it. That’s it. That’s, that’s how it works, okay? Or the other way is, you don’t have a show coming up, and Laura says to me, Miriam, where can you see, where can I see your art? That’s, that’s a very common question art as well. Get, they’ll either get, where can I see your art, what’s your gallery? And a lot of artists freeze thinking they’re not legit. They don’t have a gallery. That’s not true. That’s not where that that question is coming from, by the way, they just want to know how to follow up with you. Okay, where can I see your art, what’s your gallery? Or the third one is, do you have a card? They don’t actually want a card. By the way, they don’t want a card. So all three of those questions are an excuse for you to say, I would love to make sure you’re invited to my next show. That doesn’t mean you have a show on the calendar. You will someday, and then you get their email address. That’s how it works. That’s it. That’s the best way, really. I mean, there’s other ways too, but that’s, that’s the easiest and the best way?

Laura Arango Baier: 20:46

Yes, yeah. And I’ve also heard that it also helps to do it in person, you know, like, collect family, friends, you know, people who are closest to and then from there to start branching out. If you go to a show, if you go to, like, an opening of some sort, which Funny enough, you know, for a career that’s actually it seems like a very solitary one being an artist, since you’re in your studio, it’s actually very, very, very much dependent on networking and on, you know, talking to people, which is amazing.

Miriam Schulman: 21:16

Yes, however, this is a yes. And since many artists are introverts, and they get very nervous when they hear that these are usually one on one conversations which introverts thrive in. This is not you getting up on a stage. This is not public speaking. They are always one to one interactions. So if we talk about building our audience, there are three ways, and only three ways to build your audience, and the first one you hit upon Laura, which is your universe? So your your universe starts with friends, family, co workers, people you went to high school with, anyone you come into contact with, in person or online. That’s your universe, okay. The second way are other people’s universes. That’s what I’m doing right now. Today. I’m on the on the on the podcast, talking to Laura’s audience. So that is another way it’s so other people’s and by that, I’m not talking about paid advertising, advertising. I’m talking about free publicity. And a lot of my artists, especially ones who live in places where there’s not a lot of people. Like, I have an art client, Elizabeth mordensky, who was living in Montana. She’s like, Well, how do I do this? I was like, well, you get get some publicity. She got a article in art collector magazine. It led to $29,000 in repeat art sales, and lots of artists, lots of examples, over and over again, getting it through publicity. And then the third way is paid advertising, but that is for fine artists, not as effective actually, as the first two methods, which is good news. So it’s not something that you have to do.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:03

Yeah, that’s very good news, because oftentimes those paid advertisements can be so expensive, it’s so unreachable for a lot of people. And it’s like you said, it’s not even as effectively. It doesn’t really seem to work. Like I’ve seen people who, for example, they’ll advertise on like Facebook or Instagram, and it’s, it’s so, like, I would say maybe, like, one or 2% actually, is the conversion that I’ve noticed, at least from, you know, what friends have told me in terms of selling paintings, it’s really hard, because I think a lot of people are also becoming very disenchanted with The targeted ads that keep popping up on social media. Like, I think everyone’s really tired of that they’re looking really for like, that authenticity of like, oh, this is a human being who isn’t outwardly trying to sell me things. You know.

Miriam Schulman: 23:53

Well, the thing is, is that if you’re putting artwork in front of people, what collectors want is meaning not medium, and they want the connection to the human who has made the art. So that has to come first, and that’s why the advertising is so difficult, because it’s very hard for you to get to know them through an advertisement

Laura Arango Baier: 24:22

at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH. Show.com The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah, it feels like a mask and like, Yep, it immediately scares people away. For sure they can.

Miriam Schulman: 26:11

I just want to put a caveat in there, because a lot of people have found me for my business coaching. And before I did business coaching, I did online art classes, they have found me through through the ads. But that was never taking someone from an ad to a purchase. It was usually an ad to a free experience, kind of like how a bakery gives give you a little piece of of of like cookie at the counter, and then maybe you’ll buy the cookies, so giving them a free taste of that before they get the whole thing. So it’s really that relationship piece still has to come in the middle before you make the sale.

Laura Arango Baier: 26:55

Yeah, that’s a really good point. I think that also works really well with, you know, marketing on, not directly marketing, but just putting stuff on YouTube, or teaching free tips, or teaching, you know, or just, oh, if you like, sign up here. You get a free you get a postcard of one of my paintings, you know. Or if you really want to go old school, but it is, it’s true because it it shows more like, oh, like, I don’t want anything from you directly. Just look at my stuff, and then from there, it feels like a lot easier if someone does want the stuff to go for it, yeah. So if someone already has like, a good number of, like, email signups, right, what would you say is the next best thing to do with that list?

Miriam Schulman: 27:45

Okay, so here’s the problem with a lot of artists, either they don’t have an email list, which we’ve kind of talked about, we didn’t really talk about that actually, why you need an email list rather than social media? We can’t Okay, so when I wrote artpreneur, I was talking mostly about email, and my editor said, Oh, she’s in her 50s. I guess she’s old fashioned and doesn’t believe social media. I was like, Oh no, my friend, I’m way ahead of you. People who still think social media works are the ones who are a little bit behind. So when I wrote my that, when I wrote the book, when the editor gave me that the average engagement rate on Instagram was 1% which is still low, but not as low as it is now. So 1% is one out of 100 or 10 people out of 1000 by the time I went to edit that chapter to make a bigger case for why social media is not as effective as email, it had dropped to 0.6% and now that we’re in 2026 the average is 0.36% and It’s not 0.36% for artists, it’s 2% for colleges and sports teams, the average for everybody is point three. 6% for most artists, it’s more like point one or point two. So that’s one person out of 1000 people. What is an engagement that means they’re either DMing, you liking or commenting, and yes, somebody commenting saying, is this available as an NFT, which is a scam, also counts as that very low engagement rate. So now that we’ve discussed about that, you compare that to email. Email has a 24% open rate, so you would need 6000 followers on Instagram to get the same engagement as only 100 people on an email list. Let that sink in, 6000 100 that’s why it’s so much easier to build a business using email marketing than social media.

Laura Arango Baier: 29:58

Yeah. Yeah, not. It makes perfect sense, I think, because it takes, it’s so much more trouble, quote, unquote trouble, right? It takes more steps to sign up for someone’s newsletter or sign up for their blog or, you know, email updates, because you have to actually have interest. You have to go on their website. You have to type in, you know, your email. In some cases, you get an email back saying, Hey, you have to confirm that you’re signing up for this. And those are all these extra steps that really make you know this person is dedicated to this, instead of just looky Lou, who’s just scrolling, or even, you know, mindlessly, just not even paying attention to what they’re looking at.

Miriam Schulman: 30:39

Okay, so let me answer your question once you have so we said, so the biggest mistake I say that people, they either don’t have an email list, but the next biggest problem is they have an email list, but they’re afraid to use it. Those are the artists who think that email is bothering people. So they said, Well, I only send four emails a year or once a month, which is better, but you don’t treat Instagram that way. You would never only post four times a year on Instagram. So why are you? Why are you treating email that way? The way I like to help artists see how important it is, is someone who’s your email subscriber, is like your friend. Could you imagine if, or like a boyfriend or girlfriend, if, if a guy was interested in you and said, What? What’s your your phone number, and you gave him your phone number and he took three months to call you? Well, that’s what you’re doing when somebody gives you the email address and it takes you three months before you send an email. That’s not a nice way to treat somebody.

Laura Arango Baier: 31:50

That’s an interesting perspective on that, yeah. I mean, they care enough to like want to know more, right? So it’s good to nurture that,

Miriam Schulman: 31:59

and you want to show them that you do what you say you’re going to do. That’s the first step of trust. We talked about trusting people online. We’re in a trust recession. You got to build that trust. Part of that trust is starts with doing what you say you’re going to do.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:15

Yes, yeah, huh? I’m like, mentally jotting down, like, Okay, I know what I’m going to do next, so that’s awesome. So now that we’re actually, since you mentioned timing, what would you say is probably more or less a really good average for, like, sending out newsletters, or like,

Miriam Schulman: 32:37

every single week, and don’t call it a newsletter. Okay, people don’t even want newsletters. I’ve heard some people recently say, oh, newsletters are back. No, they’re not. Nobody wants a newsletter. Write an email as if you’re writing to a friend. Write an email the same way you would be writing an Instagram post when you do a newsletter. That’s very early, 2000s you know, of all the different sections all and what it is is that you’re not sending a lot of emails, so you’re trying to get everything in to that one email. But people, again, they’re only opening 25% of your emails. So even if you did send an email four times a month, every single week, maybe they’re only opening one because it’s 25% okay, but don’t put so much pressure on yourself that everything has to be in that one email. And let’s talk about one more thing, about why I’m such a big believer in email. So when you post something on Instagram, we talked about the engagement rate. The algorithm decides if somebody is going to see it an email, the person who you’re sending to, they decide if they’re going to open the email or not. So you have some control over that. Did you write a good subject line? Do you write good emails? So if you write good subject lines, that makes them want to open it not. Laura Studio News, I hope that’s not you. Laura, no, I know it’s I know it’s some listeners, though I’m so sorry listener, I am so mean, and it’s my job to be mean to you and tell you what’s real. If you’re sending every month, February news, March news, nobody wants to open that. If it’s if it’s Jack’s Studio News is your subject line every single time, nobody’s opening it. And once people stop opening it, what’s going to happen to that email? It’s not going to land in their inbox anymore.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:42

It’s gonna go to spam or they unsubscribe. It

Miriam Schulman: 34:46

actually probably will go to spam because that like Gmail will say, Oh, they never, you know. Miriam is never opening this. And it starts you have, sometimes things start showing up in a spam folder instead of your inbox, even things you want to get that’s something.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:00

Happens, yeah, yeah. And it’s sad, because it’s like, Oh, I do care about this. I just haven’t had time to read it, or haven’t, like, opened them in a while, right? Life? Yeah, interesting, yeah. Um, I mean, weekly, that’s pretty intense. But I love, I love the tip of, like, you know, writing it as if you’re writing to a friend and not like, I think a lot of artists are very much like how you said, like, early, 2000s geared for like newsletter. This is what’s going on in my life. This is what happened. These are the awards I got.

Miriam Schulman: 35:30

And, yeah, no, no, you don’t want that. Nobody wants that. I don’t

Laura Arango Baier: 35:32

think they care. Yeah, I’ve actually had a lot more replies and hits on like blog posts that I just, like, announced and like, in an email, like, oh, new blog posts, and then it just shows, like, part of it, and then they can read the rest on my website. And I think that’s that’s done much better since it is a much more honest, like direct like, Oh, this is this, is this, and these are my thoughts on this. Yeah, that’s really cool. And then, since we’re also touching a little bit on social media, because it’s become, gosh, I miss the old Instagram, probably as much as all the artists from like 2016 to 2020 do. Since we know that Instagram is, you know, kind of going downhill and you can, you can feel free to explain a little bit more about you know why you think that is? What are some of the other platforms that you would recommend for artists to pursue instead of our old friend Instagram?

Miriam Schulman: 36:32

Yeah, it’s not that Instagram is being mean to us. It’s just it’s not possible for Instagram to show us everything that we’re following. You know, I know I have, I’m following like 800 accounts. There’s, there’s no way I could keep up with that. That would be a full time job. So it’s not just big bad, Instagram’s fault. I think the two best platforms to be on right now are LinkedIn in YouTube with giving an edge to LinkedIn. For artists, especially the only place that YouTube is better for artists, if you art teaching, it’s hard for artists not to lapse into art speak on YouTube and turn it into a tutorial. And that’s not going to drive art collectors to you, so you have to be very careful and intentional about the kind of content you post on LinkedIn. People have jobs, and I do know a lot of artists who are doing very well there. So one of the case studies to talk about is Casey Lynn Hancock. Have you heard of her? So she sells paintings between 35,000 and 100,000 Yes, that’s each on LinkedIn. It takes her a few months before she sells it, but that’s worth it. Just have to sell two of those a year. Yeah?

Laura Arango Baier: 38:01

So, because it is so I’ve of course, used LinkedIn in the past, and probably not as much as someone who has a regular corporate job, but in terms of, like using it as an artist, what’s like, an example of a post that someone can make would be treated like Facebook or Instagram

Miriam Schulman: 38:20

in that sense, yes, but okay, so Instagram tends to be a little bit more confessional. I wouldn’t be as confessional on LinkedIn as maybe Instagram is, but much of the content you’ve posted in the past on those other platforms are it’s exactly the same thing they like, videos, pictures of your art in progress, your values, pictures of you working your studio pet, all those things, of course, you don’t have a studio pet, maybe your studio goldfish, I don’t know. Yes, yes, yes. All those things, behind the scenes content, but you want to make it behind the scenes content that’s interesting to collectors, not other artists, so not, Oh, I couldn’t decide whether to use Payne’s gray or whatever, and this is how I saved my painting. That’s something artists care about. Behind the scenes content for collectors, it’s a different flavor so they want. It’s like the difference between knowing how the sausages are made, that’s what artists care about, versus what’s the speech that the waiter gives when he’s telling you the specials. That’s like what a collector wants. It’s like the magic.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:43

Yes, it’s like what you said earlier, like the experience attached to the painting, or the creation of whatever it may be, versus, yeah, no, I totally get that. And that’s so funny, because it is true. Whenever I look at, you know, my followers, for example, on Instagram, I would. Probably estimate that 80% are other artists, which isn’t a bad thing, of course, because sometimes artists like to swap, right? Like, oh, I’ll take this piece, you take that piece and like, you know, it’s a trade, trade, trade off. But obviously it’s a million times better when it’s a collector actually buying. Well, swapping doesn’t pay the mortgage. No, it does not, unfortunately. But, yeah, that’s a really good point. That’s a really good point. Trying to see it from the perspective of the collector is definitely important. Hey, that’s really cool. And so you mentioned something about also about YouTube, like, if someone did want to pursue YouTube because people, you know, now, they’re getting tired of short form content. YouTube is becoming much bigger because it’s long form. People actually seek it out, kind of like how, you know, newsletters are also some emails are also some way that people like to seek artists out, or seek someone else. Yeah, what? Like, how can an artist make it work? Because you said, like, teaching, but like, what’s the difference between, like, you know, the type of teaching that you mentioned, where it’s, like, just tutorial, versus, you know, the other type?

Miriam Schulman: 41:11

Yeah, so I have a course I teach the audience building workshop, and in it, I talk about the two case studies. I talk about Casey Lynn Hancock with LinkedIn, I break down her strategy and the other artists I talk about is a YouTube strategy. It took me a while to find an artist on YouTube who was using it not for to sell art classes, not to sell artists business coaching, but only for their art. So the artist to check out is ao Hamer. She actually has two YouTube channels. One is a little more confessional, and the other one is a little more collector focused. So you can check out what she’s doing and see if you can reverse engineering and engineer it. I mean, I break it down in the class, but like to give it justice to what she’s doing. It’s hard for me to do that, and if, like, the time we have here,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:07

yes, awesome. Yeah. Well, that’s perfect, because it is. I have obviously, like, looked at other artists like YouTube’s, and it’s always a little bit like, oh, you only have, like, they only make, like, maybe a little bit of side income from YouTube. And YouTube, of course, can be lucrative. Okay, use it, right?

Miriam Schulman: 42:25

Let’s break that down. Okay, so one thing that, and I also have some podcasts, which no one has to pay for, that you can link to in the show notes, where I interviewed ao hammer about her YouTube strategies. And we also we did two of them because we talked about her Patreon strategy, just a separate one. So most of her income is not from the YouTube ads. She does make some she also makes some money from Patreon, but the biggest driver for her is because that platform allows her to connect with her collectors on that level where they feel like they know her, and that makes them want to buy her art. It also has led to brand partnerships. So you can check out those two videos, video slash podcasts.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:18

Yeah, yeah. I will definitely link those and I will listen to them, because I think that’s, you know, being an artist today. Think it’s very much you wear all these hats. You know, you’re like the one man band, or one woman band type of situation where you have to do all the things. And, of course, passive income and, like, getting really good leads to sales, I think are so, so so valuable. Because if you have all your eggs in one basket, like, if an artist only works with a gallery and they’ve never, like, done their own marketing, and that gallery goes bust, you’re kind of starting from scratch, right? Whereas, if you know you have a little bit going on in different platforms, and you make sure that you’re organized about it, you’re taking care of it, if a gallery that you’re working with goes bust, you’re not necessarily as like scrambling for, oh no, how am I going to pay, you know, my bills this month, you know. And then I wanted to ask you also, in your experience, right? Obviously, you know, you have some really great insights, you know, in your podcast episodes about some of the strategies that you can employ. But what would you say are some of the like, say for YouTube, like, what’s like the best strategy for someone to, like, get a collector through there or LinkedIn?

Miriam Schulman: 44:38

Okay, so, like I said, it’s a slow burn on LinkedIn. It takes Casey months. But this is no different than what I’ve always experienced in my 25 years of being an artist. It can take up to six months between when somebody hands me their email address at a fair and then. Or they purchase off of an email, and that’s with me sending emails every single week, so it can take that long to build that relationship. But the point of the email, it’s not to get an email from every person every single time. It’s to remind them that you exist, so that when they’re ready, you’re there and you’re in front of them. Think about the things that you buy off of email. I don’t know about you, but I I’ve been very guilty of doing a lot of shopping lately. It’s just too easy. It was the holidays too. It was like, it’s way too easy, but half the time it’s because I get an email. Oh, you like press on nails? Did you look at the wicked press on nails? Well, no, I didn’t, but now I will. Oh, it’s January. Do you see these white frosted press on nails? No, but let me add that to my cart. Oh, and here’s something else you might like. So it’s because they sent an email that reminds me. But then there’s other things I buy less frequently, and it just reminds me that they exist, so that when I’m ready to buy XYZ thing, a Kate Spade handbag, whatever it is, oh, okay, that’s what I’m going to go

Laura Arango Baier: 46:14

to Yes, yeah. And you actually just reminded me because another platform that I think is very underrated, and I don’t know if you’ve heard too like much about it, and I actually didn’t even send it in my notes, but it just came to mind, is Pinterest? Have you heard much at all about Pinterest? And okay, yeah.

Miriam Schulman: 46:31

So here’s the thing about Pinterest. Pinterest is like a database. It’s SEO search, so it helps Google find you. So that’s the reason for pinning on Pinterest. It’s not for the end user who is looking like that’s how it used to be. You know, people looking for recipes or people looking for ideas. It’s more of the search helping the search engines find you. And that’s why YouTube is so good, is because Google owns YouTube,

Laura Arango Baier: 47:01

exactly, yes. Okay, that’s, yeah, that’s interesting. That’s really cool. But then, in that case, do you think artists should, like, totally abandon Instagram, or is it

Miriam Schulman: 47:13

I didn’t say that? Oh no. That’s

Laura Arango Baier: 47:15

actually a question that I’m having because I’m at, I’m close. It’s, it can be such a,

Miriam Schulman: 47:20

okay, this is what you should this is what you should abandon posting regularly. What you want to do is have nine pillar posts, nine posts that are pinned to the top, so that when somebody lands on you, because they’re they see your art in a gallery, they hear about you, and they check you out that they can see those nine posts at the top of your feed that in each one has a purpose of what it’s going to do, and you can refresh those nine pillar posts periodically, but yeah, move away from being the content machine for Mark Zuckerberg. Not good for you. Yes, and that’s people had art careers long before Instagram came along,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:02

yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s exactly what I was, you know, wondering, because it has become, and I’ve, I have so many great friends and so many awesome friends who are content creators, quote, unquote, or who are artists, and they’re all experiencing the same exact burnout, which is why I say, like, Oh man, I’m so close to just closing Instagram and, like, never opening it again. But at the same time, it is a place where I DM my friends, and it’s still the place where, like, I connect with oh so and so was doing this last weekend, and that’s so cool, you know, like, it’s still a bit of that personal sense. But at the same time, it just feels like, oh, so

Miriam Schulman: 48:42

put the same energy that you used to put into Instagram, into sending an email every week, and you’ll be more successful.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:51

That’s good to know. That’s good to know. I think that takes so much pressure off. I think for our listeners, anyone out there who is, you know, panicking about regular posting, or posting multiple times a day, which is something else that I keep hearing, and it just, it sounds like torture.

Miriam Schulman: 49:06

Yeah, I just want to say something else about that. I’m not just speaking from my experience. So since I’ve been coaching other artists, I can tell you about the other artists, what the experience I’ve had. One of my clients is Lynn Samus, and the year before she came to work with me, 2023 she had made $13,400 from sales of her art through galleries. In 2024 the year she was working with me, she made over $90,000 from her art. But here’s the reason I’m bringing her up, her most successful month was August of 24 she made over $20,000 that month, and that was the same month that her Instagram account got hacked. So her success did not depend on Instagram. I have lots of stories just like that, so not necessarily. They got half the month their most successful month, but basically how email marketing made a huge difference for them. I’ve gotten many artists over that six figure mark, and it’s not about becoming a better real creator, or creating a carousel or creating stories that’s exhausting.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:17

Yeah, yeah. Because again, like, it’s what I said, being a one person band, being video editor, recorder, music picker, because, oh no, it’s copyrighted. I can’t use that song, right? There’s so much that goes into just creating the content that you know, like 80% of the hard work, which is making the painting, becomes, suddenly becomes, like, the 20% of importance of the whole thing, which really sucks, because making the painting itself is the hard part for a lot of artists. So to add on top of that, just like all of the Toots and whistles and all these things are like, Oh, I gotta record, and I gotta do this, and I gotta it’s exhausting, so it’s good to know that you don’t have don’t have to, you don’t have to do that. Can go nice and slow and build a list over time of people who actually care instead of trying to scream into the void of Instagram, as I like to say, awesome. Yeah. Well, this, this has been a really productive not just for me, hopefully for our listeners too. Conversation. Do you have any final advice for someone who wants to make a living as an artist?

Miriam Schulman: 51:30

Yeah, so I want to end our conversation today with the same way I ended my book artpreneur, and that is, keep marching forward. There’s gonna be many times where you think you’re doing all the things and you’re still not getting the results you want. But if you keep putting one foot in front of the other and not blaming your boots, what do I mean by that? Don’t blame the circumstances. It’s not the economy. It’s not keep keep marching, put one foot in the front of the other if you’re going in the wrong direction, the only way you’ll know is if you keep on walking, and then you can always turn around and go in a different direction. But if you’re just standing there spinning, you’re not going to get anywhere. So keep marching forward.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:09

Oh, I love that. Yeah, it’s very easy to get paralyzed with the fear of all the possibilities, especially, you know, when you’re an entrepreneur, an entrepreneur, you see all the possibilities, and then suddenly you’re like, oh no. Like, oh no, like, I don’t know which way is the quote, unquote right way to go. It’s like analysis paralysis, but yeah, just picking one thing going forward and then seeing how it works, I think that’s definitely takes a huge load off for a lot of people, including me. Oh man. And then where can people go check out your artwork and your services and your awesome book?

Miriam Schulman: 52:45

All right, well, if you like what you heard today, there’s more of that at the Inspiration Place, both on podcast and YouTube form. I’d love to give you a free chapter of the book. Shulman Art com, slash believe if you do buy the book, though, we have a whole bonus package for you, so you can check that out. Artpreneur book.com, awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:09

Well, thank you so much, Miriam for all of these awesome tips. I was taking down a good amount of notes because I’m also ready to just focus on the things that actually work, and I hope our listeners will too. So thank you, all right.

Miriam Schulman: 53:24

Well, thanks for having me today, Laura, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:27

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Cindy Baron, a Rhode Island-based painter, with mastery in both watercolor and oil paints in her gorgeous landscape art. Cindy shares how she identifies first as a mother and grandmother, and then as an artist. She emphasizes that passion and continual growth are the foundations of her creative life. She explains her methodical, problem-solving approach to painting, how she embraces mistakes as essential teachers, and even uses dancing and exercise in front of her works to resolve artistic decisions. Cindy reveals deeply personal health struggles, and describes how her easel, brushes, and paints became the lifeline that carried her through pain, and how for her “art is best medicine”. On the professional side, Cindy offers business and marketing advice for artists—staying professional online, regularly creating new work, building relationships with galleries, and using shows, magazines, and social media strategically. She closes by urging aspiring artists not to procrastinate, to “just do it” despite fear of failure, and mentions her upcoming solo show, workshops, travels, and that her in-progress book, The Guilt Box, will further share her story.

Cindy’s FASO site:
cindybaron.com

Cindy’s Social Media:
facebook.com/cindy.baron.5

instagram.com/cindybaronart/

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Transcript:

Cindy Baron: 0:00

I had it not been for my easel, my paint brushes and my paints, I could not write this story, because that is what got me from point A to point B, and I didn’t give up. But I painted. I painted all day long. If I couldn’t sleep at night, I painted, you know, you name it, I paint it. I painted my way through the whole thing, and that is one of the best medicines art.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:29

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the gold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Cindy Barron, a Rhode Island based landscape painter with mastery in both water color and oil paint. Cindy shares how she identifies first as a mother and grandmother and then as an artist. She emphasizes that passion and continual growth are the foundations of her creative life. She explains her methodical problem solving approach to painting, how she embraces mistakes as essential teachers and even uses dancing and exercise in front of her works to resolve artistic decisions, Cindy reveals deeply personal health struggles and describes how her easel, brushes and paints became the lifeline that carried her through pain, and how for her, art is the best medicine on the professional side, Cindy offers business and marketing advice for artists, staying professional, online, regularly creating new work, building relationships with galleries, and using shows, magazines and social media strategically, she closes by urging aspiring artists not to procrastinate, to just do it despite fear of failure, and mentions her upcoming solo show, workshops, travels and that her in progress Book, the guilt box, will further share her story. You. You welcome Cindy to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Cindy Baron: 2:07

I am great. It’s a wintry day here, but it’s it’s beautiful, so I’m great. I hope you’re doing good. You’re far away, so I know it’s winter for you, too, and night,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:19

yes, yes, although it’s probably much colder where you are, funny enough, since you guys had a crazy snowstorm, we actually just lost color snow here. But I’m excited to have you, because you are so masterful in two mediums in such an equal manner, and I love the way that you work your atmospheric perspective and the use of composition and tone and your landscapes is absolutely delicious to look at. It is something to study. I was actually staring at your work for that reason.

Cindy Baron: 2:55

Thank you. You’re

Laura Arango Baier: 2:56

welcome. And of course, that’s a ton of hard work that I can tell went into that and continues to go into your work. So I I admire you, and we’re gonna have even more reasons to admire you, both me and the listeners, shortly, but before we dive into all of that, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Cindy Baron: 3:20

Okay, so everybody would like to me to say that I’m an artist first, but I’m not. I’m a mother, I’m a grandmother, and then I’m an artist. I put all of that in perspective in the same the way I said it, I’m a mother, I’m a grandmother, and I’m an artist and an entrepreneur, and soon to the author, I’m working on that, so I’m adding some titles as I go go along. But that’s me. I live in Rhode Island. Most people think I live out west because I’m out there so much. But no, my home is actually Rhode Island. I’m from Indiana, and I have lived all over the place, so I decided to keep my home here in Rhode Island. My kids love it, so I have a great studio, and it’s been a lot of it’s been hard, and it’s been a long time in waiting, but it’s here. So that’s who I am. I’m a mother, I’m a grandmother and an artist,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:23

perfect, yes, and, you know, and that’s something that I’m pretty sure a lot of artists listening to this podcast can relate to, having that sort of tier of, you know, my children, my family, and then, of course, my creative job, or creative, I guess endeavor work, because it doesn’t really feel like a job. I think for a lot of artists, it feels more like invocation calling passion.

Cindy Baron: 4:51

Yes, it’s, it’s, it’s all of that. I have a deep passion for what I’m doing and for all three of my jobs I’m. Mother, grandmother, artists, I have a deep passion for all of that, because you only get this one life. And you know what? I give it all as much as I can and without passion, no, but you don’t go anywhere, you know? And I will tell you know, let’s start it off this way. You could have the most famous athlete, and he could be so talented if he didn’t have the passion, the talent doesn’t go with him. So the same with art, if you don’t have the passion, you can have the talent. But if you don’t have the passion, you don’t have you don’t have the movement that you want to portray with people. So that’s my my number one thing I go on, it’s all about passion.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:47

Yes, and I totally agree. I think it’s really interesting, because I it’s very rare to find an artist who isn’t passionate, at least successful one. I think it’s a lot easier to find it an artist who are maybe still finding their way, finding their footing, or figuring stuff out, but once you know, you reach that point of like you have found the passion that’s, I think, when a lot of the career aspects really start to kick in. You know,

Cindy Baron: 6:13

just mind you, you can, you know, we’re still an artist is always evolving. It does not, you know, have I figured everything out yet? No, if I had, it’d be a whole lot easier than it is. But no, I have not figured everything out. I don’t want to figure everything out, because, guess what, when you grow, it just makes that passion even more passionate. So we’re always growing. We always need to be stimulated. We always need new locations or new things to paint or museums. We need other artists, you know, that we admire. I just listened to Eric growth. Had someone on the other day with aspavic. Clyde aspavic, and you know what? You’re never too old, you’re never too famous, you’re never too talented to just sit in and listen to other artists. And so you know that you’re always growing, you’re always evolving, and that’s why, you know you don’t want to learn everything yet. You know, hopefully I make it to 90, you know, and in good shape, and whatever, I will still be listening and, you know, growing at 90. So that’s the one, the other key thing you need to remember, you always got to grow

Laura Arango Baier: 7:28

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that’s one of the most important factors. And I think, I think artists can see it a lot more clearly, maybe than other professions, like, maybe, like, office jobs or, you know, like the more difficult path that someone might take. I think growth is a little bit more it’s seen in a little bit of a different way. But I think for artists, it’s so obvious to us, like, because it’s directly on the canvas, we’re just like, Oh man, I really don’t know how to describe this part of this tree, or I really don’t know how to do this, and you have to figure it out in order to complete the image, you know, versus, oh, I have to learn something new on Excel, which, if someone wants to do that, they can. But I think with art, it’s so I feel like there’s a certain tenacity that we have to face, or we have to have within us to really face the problem head first on the canvas, because it’s such a direct representation of our skills, our knowledge, our our use of color, use of composition, that it’s it can defeat you so easily. You know, when it’s

Cindy Baron: 8:33

it can take, yes, it can take you down really fast. You can think, wow, you know, you can do for me. I can do a drawing and then a transport, you know, to start a painting. And you look at and go, Well, this isn’t the way it’s supposed to come out, you know. So it there, it’s both sides. I have a lot of failures, you know, and, and I have, I call them some successes, because I’ve yet to paint my best painting yet, you know, I, that’s the way I, I like to say it. I’m in competition with myself, not with anybody else, you know, it’s, I’m just in competition to grow and be better and paint better, and learn and and, you know, so the only competition I have is with me, myself and I but it’s, it’s, it’s, art is so subjective. Your painting is so subjective. You know, reading a book is so subject. Everything has you can interpret it so many different ways, but it’s showing your creative side. So you have to get your mind to think this will work out. This will be fine. Let me go back into my mind to figure out how to get it on canvas so it’s very subjective. And then you get very sensitive to what people might portray your painting as, or your book as, or whatever. But you have to remember you’re painting for you right now. Know, you know, yes, you’re painting for a gallery, or you’re painting for a show, but you’re, you’re more or less painting for yourself, because if it doesn’t please you, it’s not going in the gallery, it’s not going in the show. So I’m painting for me, then it can go to other, you know, the other events, or the other venues. So it, yeah, it’s very subjective. It’s a very solitaire job. You know, I love my job. I spend, I would say, a good 10 to 12 hours in my studio. I can go upstairs and cook dinner, because I love to cook. I love to make big soups and pots of this and pots of that, and to have that smell going through the house, wine down in my studio is like a stimulant for me. I love stuff like that, so I multitask. But I’m in my studio 10 to 12 hours a day, and I’ll bring my dinner down here and sit in front of my paintings. I’ll give you another thing I do in my studio, and I exercise in front of my paintings, so they’re all lined up in the wall over here, and I exercise in front of like, four or five paintings, because those four or five paintings haven’t gotten to where they need to be. So this is a little secret that you got. Might want to try, but I have some really funky music I put on, and I have the most ugliest fun. You know, I’m trying to get better at dancing. And I dance, and I do this for a good 30 minutes, and it’s not a slow dance or whatever. I mean, I am dancing and doing the whole thing, and I do it in front of my paintings, and that is where I make the remainder of the decisions on how to finish that painting, is by exercising. And then after that, you know, I get ready to paint, and then I stop and go cook, and then I come down. So it’s, you know, I spend a lot of time here by myself doing that, but it works. And then every now and then I gotta take myself out to dinner. So that’s my reward, if something goes good. So I don’t know, I don’t know, you know we were, we were talking about it. We’ve gone off and all these little angles, and I just sit here and I’m like, Oh my God. People are gonna think she is weird, but now I dance in front of my paintings. Try it. You like it? Yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:28

And you know what? I love that you mentioned exercise, because I love going to the gym, and I have actually found that exercise, or even dancing like how you’re describing sometimes leads to a very random epiphany in my work where, like, I’ll be, you know, working out, and suddenly, during my my rest time between sets, I’m like, Oh my gosh, this thing, of course, I’m gonna have to try that, you know, and then, you know, go back to the studio and then try it out. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t, but oftentimes it’s a great epiphany.

Cindy Baron: 13:01

Well, I’m not a doctor, but I swear it releases something in your brain, you know. And plus, it puts you in a better mood, you know, especially if you’re dancing like me, you know. So it puts you in a better mood. And you things just, you just figure things out, you know, you get it. Just works. Just try it. Everybody dance in front of your paintings through really funky music the way you want to dance. Nobody has to watch you, but you can figure things out in your paintings and in life and in work and in everything. It just works. You gotta do the little happy dance.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:36

Yes? Oh my gosh, yes.

Cindy Baron: 13:41

I’m all fun. Exercise is, is a big form of my days and and the reason why that is is because I have to stay healthy. That will again, I’m going to touch base on later, but it’s, it’s, it’s also become an addiction. It’s a good addiction, because, like I said, it helps the mind, it helps life. It helps your mood, it helps your paintings, you know, it helps, it helps everything, plus it makes you hungry to eat good soup that I just made on the stove, you know. So it’s, it’s a little it does everything. Exercise is key to everything. It really is. And painting, I totally agree.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:22

I totally agree, especially because painting can be such a sedentary job, and it can be exhausting to be sitting for so many hours, and it’s very important, like you said, to to move around. It’s, it’s the healthiest thing you can do. And actually wanted to ask you, when did you realize, or when was it, you know you, when was the moment that you noticed? Okay, I am going to follow the path of the artist.

Cindy Baron: 14:49

Oh, I was young. Oh, very young. When, as far as if talking about age, I knew very early that I was an artist. And, um. Actually my teachers in elementary school did my high my high school teacher actually had me a system in the local art center on weekends to help students learn to draw. My my strength was in drawing. Painting was hard, but my strength was in drawing. But I knew very, very early I was, I was very young, and I come from an eclectic, artsy family, and so we all do something a little bit different. My older brother is an amazing you know, he was every what everybody focused on, because he was so good, I had to work hard to get from point A to point B. But I knew very early on. And then I threw myself out there into local art shows. You know where you paint, and there are art shows that in the summertime. And then I threw myself into galleries. And you know, it was all trial and error, but I was, you know, from elementary school. By the time I’m in my 20s, I was professional. I was selling, but, you know, it’s in my work has evolved a lot since then. But no, I knew very early. I mean, the schools would have me call Cindy. She can do it, you know, bring Cindy into the office, she can do that mural on the wall. And it was me, or my older brother, who was very talented, so we were known in school to do that. So it was, it was early. I see it in my son’s, you know, because we all, we have that little drawing skills. And I see it in my grandchildren. There’s something, you know, a little artsy with them. Plus we have music in my family. So, you know, we all, we’re all little eclectic, all a little strange, you know, little art. You know, artsy, but I see it, you know, I can see it in my younger, the younger generation, and that’s so exciting to art. But now it was early, and I made the leap to become professional in my 20s, and then it just, it just grew from there. But I knew, you know, I knew early on, I knew I wanted to be an artist. I just, I just did. I just didn’t know where it would take me,

Laura Arango Baier: 17:22

yes, and you know what? That’s a great point. I think a lot of people who embark on this artistic path journey, they don’t really know where the where it takes you, and it can take you to so many different places, because oftentimes, you know, we start with one idea of what we think we want to paint, or what genre we might want to dive into. And then as time goes on, you know, all these influences come in. We have experiences in life. We have, you know, we come across a color that we suddenly feel like, wow, this color is amazing. I want to play with this. And actually, that brings me to my next question, which is, since you’ve had such a very long time to work on your craft and your skill. How have you noticed, or how did you notice how your process evolved? And how did you start to get to know how your brain works?

Cindy Baron: 18:14

Oh, my gosh, my brain. Oh, anybody that gets in my brain is they’re going, Wow, I I have a different thought process than most other artists now. I am not traditionally changed. I worked in a tool and dye company. I have no higher education. I have to tell you, through trial and error, through mistakes, through certain artists that really inspired me when I was young, and I’ve tried them all. I’ve done charcoal, pastels, watercolors, oils. It’s, it’s all through trial and error. It’s, it’s, you got to make the mistakes. You’ve got to experiment. You have to do it all. You got to try different surfaces to find out what your style is. I am very comfortable in my style now, but I don’t want it to become. How do I want to say I still want it to grow, you know? But I’m very comfortable with what I’m doing. I love teaching my style, because it’s different than most artists. I am different than most artists. I’m a more methodical thinker painter. I have to draw things out and then think about it and then paint. I do it in stages. I work with what, especially with the watercolor, what might happen with them. You know, if you have a mistake on a watercolor, which is very easy to do, I learned how to conquer that mistake and turn it into something beautiful. And the only way I learned this is because I made a ton of mistakes. I. Still making mistakes. There can still be a dud on a on a oil painting here that I just literally throw the canvas across the room and start all over. Because my thinking is, oh, that Canvas has bad, bad vibes on it. It’s got to go out the door. You know, I just get rid of the whole thing instead of painting over it later. It’s all through trial and error. You have to put the steps in just like an athlete. My sons were shooters, and they had, every day they had to make 100 straight shots. And guess what? If they missed one at number 79 they started over again with at one to get to 100 and they did it, and they succeeded. They were they overachieved, and what they were doing. And I look at myself that way. I am still evolving. I am still, you know what I call myself, an overachiever? No, no, but I do know that I have so much room up here in my brain to learn something new. Don’t give me a computer to learn on. That is, I can come and build you a garage. That’s the way my brain works. So I’m giving you a little insight to my brain. My friends com me over. I come with tools. You know, don’t count me to don’t bring me over to fix your phone, as you may notice, or the computer, or this or that, because that is I just something happens and I short circuit. But if you said I have a wall that just fell down, I said, I’ll be right over. I got a toolbox, I can fix it. It’s just, it’s, my brain is like a carpenter. It knows how to to build, repair, fix, rethink. That’s how my brain is. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a different brain. But I am still, you know, I’m still evolving. I’m still learning. I think that’s the great thing. We have a big capacity to learn so much more. So that’s how it works. It’s, it’s, I’m different. I’m just different, and that’s okay to be different. You know, every artist is different. Every artist can do things, handle things a little bit different, different way. I’m very methodical. I’m very slow thinking. I’m very like, Okay, what if I do it this way? Can I conquer that part? If I do this? Can I do you know? So that’s, that’s the way my brain works. So that’s the best way can tell you, you know, the art is in there. I don’t know what part it’s in, or the creativity, you know, because I’m not a doctor, you know, I don’t or neural again, I know none of that is just that. I know I can build, and that’s part of a painting. I can build a painting. So that’s the way my brain is, my brain can build. So that’s, that’s the best way I can tell you about my my brain and how I do things,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:09

yeah, yeah. And I think what, what is very highlighted in how you describe yourself is that you are very much a proactive problem solver. But also, I think you you have something that I think our listeners should probably emulate, because there’s nothing better than talking to someone who has, you know, that self confidence in their skill, right? It’s very different to be like, Oh, I don’t know what I’m doing, and to like, you know, plummet down into depression, but when you know it’s like, I mean, I don’t know how to do it, but I’m going to figure it out, because I trust myself to figure things out, that’s, I think, one of the biggest ways to determine how much a person can grow. And you definitely have that.

Cindy Baron: 23:56

And the thing is, you don’t put a time limit on yourself. Well, I need to grow by tomorrow. You know? I need to have this painting by tomorrow. That doesn’t happen for me. I, you know, I’m a slow process, and I figured things out, and at my speed, case of, case in point, at plein air competitions, you know, they say, Well, you need five paintings for this. You need to do that. You need to paint here. You need to paint that there. And mind you, that’s all good. I’ve done a ton of them. I had to take when you tell me, like, there’s artists out there doing three, four paintings a day, and I’m like, and no, I had to take myself out of the equation and go, wait. I’m going to get one painting done today. And how many do I need by the end of the week? I need four. Okay, then my brain is okay. But if you tell me, you know, I gotta build a library, I gotta do this, and I gotta do that, it’s like panic. And then I need to go have a scotch. You know, it’s something in my that happens to me. So then I decided, no, you have your four by the end of the week. Five. It’s not going to be 56789, 10. There will be four, but those four paintings are going to be quality paintings. So that’s how I I, you know how I work? Because it if the last thing I want to do is 10 years down the road, go to somebody that purchased a painting at a plane air event, and I sit there go, oh my god, I’m so sorry. And you bought that, you know, I don’t want that part. So that’s why I made that rule up. Now I don’t do any more plein air competitions. It those are hard, and God bless every artist. And I’ve met a ton of friends, but it doesn’t work for me. My my my mind is I’m stressed, I have anxiety, and it’s just like, No, so

Laura Arango Baier: 25:47

yeah, that’s a good point. Every artist like you said, is different, and some artists do really great with that level of stress and anxiety and pressure. I’m very much like you. I crumble and I have a breakdown, and then I need to probably have a Scotch with you, because it’s, it’s too much. It’s too much. It’s I, and I relate to with the methodicalness, right? Because sometimes you know you have to understand what you’re looking at properly and solve it through drawing it, sketching it, making studies of it in order to really hit that note that you want to hit with the painting. Yes, which you certainly do. So it counts for something. I mean, your process definitely works for you, and that’s the important part.

Cindy Baron: 26:36

Yeah, it doesn’t, and that’s what makes us all unique. That’s what makes every artist unique? We all have our own process, and it’s okay. You want, you know, you want to take that long. It’s okay. You want to paint faster. It’s okay, you know. But you got to find what works for you. I know what works for me, and so you got to find that that. And at once you find that, then you know, you’re set go. You know, paint as much as you can, make as many mistakes as you can, because you learn from your duds. And I have a lot of duds, and I call I tell all my students, those duds are a blessing. And here’s the reason why you learn more from your mistakes and your duds than you do anything that’s successful. My sons would say, you know, they would look at if they had a bad game, they would they would learn from that bad game. They’re not going to look in the game that they made 30 points and made all these foul shots, because guess what? You know that happened, and it was great, but they learn from their mistakes. So they could get to those games to do the, you know, to make the 30 points or whatever. So you know, you learn from your mistakes.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:52

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, absolutely yes, yes, yes. And I love that. You know, seeing the mistakes is as a blessing, like you said, instead of seeing them as you know, something that haunts you every night before bed. Maybe it’s just me, though, but

Cindy Baron: 29:49

that sometimes happens, but dance in front of that painting the next day, and then you go, wait, I think I feel better about it.

Laura Arango Baier: 29:58

Yes, definitely. Me, and then I wanted to ask you, because you have something very special in store for us today, and I’m very excited to hear about it. Do you mind telling us how you have leaned on your easel?

Cindy Baron: 30:13

Okay, so this is a very personal story, and like I told you, you’re the first person I’m coming out public with it, but it’s a very personal story. I have been writing for years on it, and it will be part of my book. Well, it will be a big part of my book when it happens, because I think it’s instrumental in helping every single person out there. It really is, and it’s, you know, I’m going to give you a quick little outline and then tell you why I leaned on the easel. I grew when, you know, as a child, I we had a very unstable home, so it wasn’t, you know, that was the hard part. And then meeting somebody that literally destroyed. I met a bad person, and I’ll leave it at that. And then I married and had two wonderful sons, and we were in the sports world. We it. My job was tied to making them succeed. My husband was a division one basketball coach, and my sons were professional basketball players, but the reason why they got to do all that is I had to devote my time to them. And then my art was last, which was usually in the middle of the night. It doesn’t make for a good mood for you sometimes. So every chance I could get, I would get to the easel. And so finally, you know that my career is going good, and my kids are, you know, off playing games, and I had shows lined up, and I knew I had a heart defect. I was born with a heart defect. So they basically told me, at this is at the young age of 50 that I was going into heart failure, and I let yo I haven’t done everything yet. You know, that was my first response. And and he goes, Well, you know, we have to, you don’t have a choice. So I said, Okay, can we do it tomorrow? You know, that’s how I am. So, you know, I don’t let me sleep on this. Well, it took a month for them to map out what they were going to do to my heart. My heart basically wasn’t formed right, and was basically working backwards. And I developed pulmonary hypertension. And it was it. I felt it because I’d been on heart meds for, oh my gosh, 20 years and so, and that’s the way they were controlling, you know, all the arrhythmias and stuff that was going on. But I still ran, I still I jog, I exercise, I would walk the sand dunes, I would climb the mountains. I still did everything, you know. I’m just thinking, hey, you know everything’s fine, until they said, No, you’re not fine. And so, you know it, it was in the middle of basketball season, and it was the wrong time to have the heart surgery. But there was, there wasn’t anything we we could do. I so I had to go do it. I had a seizure that ruined my motor skills, so, but that was short lived, and so then the I got that, I slowly got that back, along with my eyesight. Yeah, it was, it was something that just happened, low complication, and then I got pneumonia. And so I didn’t leave ICU for seven days, and it was, there was a point where it was like, Yeah, this isn’t going well. So instead, you know, they take the tubes out, and next thing you know, they’re putting the tubes back in. And so it was a long six month rehab, but during that, I also got a huge depression. It was and and that will happen after, you know, heart surgery. So the lucky thing is, is my studio was in the living room of our house, and what I did is I painted, I painted, I painted, and it took me out of my head. It took me out of the discomfort. I did my rehab, I did my walking, I did everything. And if you do everything, they tell you to do, you improve each day. And then, you know, I leaned on some medication to get the, get the depression, you know, better. And then I went off of it, because I’m one of these, like, Don’t keep me on too long, you know, I’ll do this. When I went in for heart surgery, I said, Yeah, I’m gonna be out in three days. The big guy upstairs said, Guess what? I got something to teach you. And so that was a long I had to cancel shows. I had to cancel workshops. I had no air. Could not walk and talk and breathe at the same time, I had to choose one thing. I had a little lung bag on to help drain the lungs. It’s only because they were making my heart work the right way. So they rebuilt my heart. And the cardiologist that did it, or the surgeon that did it, actually wrote about me in his book, because I was a pediatric adult anomaly. And once they got in, he had to read map the way he was going to do the surgery, because he found other stuff. So I was one of those, those I teaching like, you know, students, you know, they had everybody in there. And the funny thing is, I say this as a joke, because you can tell I’m upbeat about it, but I said I’ve had more men’s hands on my chest that I wish it felt good, but it didn’t. But guess what? It was education. Once again, I’m going back everybody’s learning, and they had to learn last minute How to revamp once they got in there. So it was Major. Major wasn’t your your bypass surgery or anything like that. It was Major. They were trying to save my life, you know, basically. So I get through the Depression, and I fly to it’s six months later, and I fly to Jackson, hole Wyoming to have a show, the show that had to be canceled a little bit, and then put back in. And I went with a girlfriend of mine. And here’s the biggest and I would love to send you that photo. It’s we climbed, we did a hike, and I got up to Lake solitude, and I just did, I did it, and I danced on the rocks and and it was, you know, but guess what? I did it. It just took me a while to do it, but I did it, and I got off all meds. I’m now med free, no heart meds, no nothing, because they made my heart work the way it’s supposed to work. But had it not been for my easel, my paint brushes and my paints, I could not write this story, because that is what got me from point A to point B, and I didn’t give up. But I painted. I painted all day long. If I couldn’t sleep at night, I painted, you know, you name it. I painted. I painted my way through the whole thing. And that is one of the best medicines art, your books, your create, your My I had all my art books out. I had, you name it, Scott Christensen, I had two of his books. I’m just laying them on the floor, and I’m looking at them, and I’m like, you know, and then I could go to the easel, and then I felt good, you know, it’s just that was the best medicine that you could ever ask for. Is the paintbrush, the paints and the easel. It just, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, I needed, my mind, the depression, everything, everything was gone. And I’m back to hiking, and I’m just doing my I’m doing it all the way I wanted to do and so, but it just, you know, a little detour. And then after that, my marriage failed, and that was 30 years plus. And so once again, I entered all those plein air competitions, and I got in them, and then I went, Oh, my God, I’m doing it. And you know what? The roadmap and my traveling art studio was the best medicine I could do to get through that. So once again, I leaned on art. You know, there’s a common theme here. I just turned my attention to the art and took myself out of me. You know, I took vacations from me with my art, you know, I It’s like, I don’t talk about me, I don’t do this, I don’t do that. I’m just painting. And because I had, I’m not I’m a person doesn’t like to be sad or depressed. I, you know, I just like upbeat things. So and you know, that was that was difficult to be honest. I would not want that on anybody ever and so now I’m back. My career is booming. I’m doing everything that, you name it. I was going to move to Colorado, and so I was going to leave Rhode Island, and I thought my kids were on their own. They’re working overseas, you know, everybody’s happy I did my job. So I was going to move to Colorado, and I put my home in a pod, sold a bunch of stuff, and in my car were three colors of suitcases, winter, spring and like, in between. So I knew, you know, the pink suitcase was summer and this and that. So I had everything, you know, color coordinated, and I had my little art studio thing. And I’m driving to I’m on my way to Colorado. I had no home, absolutely no home now. So I’m going to Colorado to find something, you know. And I stopped in Indiana to see my mom, and she was very. Ill. Next thing you know, I spent six months in Indiana because she had cancer, and so going to Colorado. Guess what? Just got I was like, okay, you know, it just, yeah, it just didn’t happen. So my kids were coming home for the summer. So I drive back to Rhode Island. I have no home. So my girlfriend, my girlfriend, her husband, I mean, they are like my family, so I stayed with them for a few months until I could, you know, purchase a home. Because my kids came home, I thought, Okay, I’ll purchase a home. So I had went to my doctors, I did the cardiologist, and it was time for your colonoscopy. So I’m very upfront about this. I have my colonoscopy. I have cancer. I had no idea I had cancer. And taking care of my mom, she lived in a housing authority type place, and I had a little easel set up in her room. So that was my traveling easel. So once again, I’m setting up my traveling easel, and I sat there and I had the biggest, baddest, worst talk with the big guy upstairs, because I was like, this isn’t supposed to happen this way. It’s this isn’t I did all my jobs. I did everything was supposed to do. My career is great. Everything’s booming. I’m so excited. And guess what? Cancer didn’t care. Does not care. That was hard, and I went through, you know, once again, that was a long process, and I did chemo and radiation every day for eight weeks, and it then I have little surgeries for the next couple of years and but then my immune system took a hit, a hit, a big hit. So once again, I did seven years to repair my immune system from the chemo and cancer. But guess what I did? You’re going to see the common theme I painted. I turned to my easel, and guess what? I painted some most like it. I’m thrilled to talk about that, even though I had a lot of long, tough experiences, painting brings me joy. So I, you know, if, if you can give me a paintbrush and an easel, I’m I’m happy, I really am. So that’s the common theme. I turn my pain, my anxiety, everything I had to go through, I turned to the easel. The easel has never let me down. Now it may paint a bad painting from time to time, but it’s still standing. It’s wooden. It’s still standing. It’s not going anywhere. And so guess what? You have to stand with it. And I paint it every day, especially with cancer. There are nights like you just don’t sleep. So I would paint. I just, I just, would, you know, I go to my studio was in the basement, and I went to the basement, and I would just paint and paint and that that was, that was, that was a good thing. And then, you know, you know, you got covid, you get everything else, and nobody’s doing anything. So I painted, and I got a whole lot done, you know. So I’m trying to tell everybody here. And once again, I’m still turning to my easel, you know, to get through, you know, the little things. But I’m trying to tell everybody here that write a book. Go cook. Turn to cooking. Turn to whatever, turn to paint, turn to something that art that brings joy and stimulates that creative mind. Because once you do that, it will take you out of your pain, in your agony, because you have something else. You have a new best friend. You know that best friend is going to help you through all of this. And you don’t, you know. And the other thing you know, like, I want my friend, I got have a lot of friends, and I go out with them. I tell them, I said, I’m on vacation from me. You know, we’re going out to have fun. So I don’t, you know. Every now and then, you know, I have a nice little talk with a friend. But other than that, no, no, I work it out in my studio. I exercise. I beat my brushes up, I get the canvases going, I make mistakes, and I do it all to get out of to get into here, but to get out of here. So I get all the bad stuff out by exercising. I get all the good stuff in by painting. And so those are the things that you know, I’ve, yeah, there’s, there’s other things in there, but that’s going to be left for the for the reader, but it’s been a I’ve had a challenge. I have had a challenge, but it didn’t destroy me. You know, cancer. I’m a cancer survivor now, you know, and I am very proactive on everything. Thing. If they said, Oh, you know, we got to go in and fix something. I have a pacemaker that makes me climb all the mountains, you know. And, yes, will we be tweaking me some more? Yes, the heart is something now. I beat cancer, but the heart is something I still, we still have to fine tune every now and then and but it didn’t stop me. What it did was actually make me fight harder. It actually made me work harder. It actually gave me discipline. It gave me a purpose. It gave me goals, because that’s the way my brain works. Again, we talked about the brain. My brain can build things. So I know I can succeed, you know, I know I can do these things, you know, because I’ve had to turn to what is important to me, family, my, you know, my family, my grandkids, my and my art. So I keep and I’m very spiritual. You know, I turn, you know, I have my prayers, with with, with everybody. I’ve saints, gods, Jesus, you name it, I say my prayers, you know, and and I I’m grateful for a lot of things, but I’ve also had a lot of stuff thrown at me that I had to fight for, and I had to figure out why the big guy upstairs gave me this walking path. But he did, you know, he did. And my mom died a couple of months ago, and I was her hospice care person, and I went to I’m emotional about this. You can tell so and my mom didn’t like me too much. And I’m saying this laughing. She just had her reasons. And I think the reason why is I left home? I just left, you know, I left Indiana and, and which was good, I was breaking a cycle, to be totally honest, I broke a cycle. And so I went, but I was the one that held her when she died, you know, so I was the one that was there for but this is what I did. Guess what I did? Doing this, being there with her, I had my little plein air easel beside her bed, and I painted. And she would call out every now and then. I go, Mom, I’m still here. You know, I’m painting. And I painted beside her, her bed, because, guess what? I turned to the brush again. I turned to the paints again. So you might see that in my paintings, I put a lot of emotion, I put a lot of atmosphere, I put a lot of that in. It’s because I’m going on all the stuff I went through to get from point A to point B. I don’t know what’s coming down the road. All I know is I have healthy kids, everybody’s on their own, and I can tackle it. And I will have my paintbrush. I will have my easel. It comes in many sizes. I got the big easels and I got the traveling easels, but I will have those, because that is what is going to save me. So that’s this little story that you’re getting a little snippet of it. There’s a lot of ugly stuff in between some of that, but it’s that’s my story on why I paint. I paint because I love it. I paint because someone gave me a blessing, someone gave me a talent. I paint because I feel it. I paint because I want to share it, and I want to share my story, because I think it will help people along the way that that this is just too hard. I can’t do it or whatever. You can do it. You can do it in Jimmy valvano’s favorite sayings, never, never, ever give up. And that is the one thing I always remember. It’s not my saying, you know, but it’s, it’s, it’s something you got, you know, you got to give your best. You really do. You got to give your most, the most that you can. So I’m very passionate about it. This book has taken me a long time. I’ve had an A writer look at and like, yeah, don’t quit your day job yet. But I should guess what, I’ll get there. So now it’s, it’s, it’s coming along. So I gave you a short little outline of why I’m passionate about the things I do.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:17

Yes, so thank you so much for sharing that is, it is so inspiring to have you, of course, on the other side of the screen, and to hear this because you’re such like you’re saying, you’re very upbeat, you’re a go getter, you’re so like you would never imagine that you have gone through so many trials and tribulations in life. So thank you for sharing that. I’m sure one of our listeners out there might, you know, find themselves in a similar position, and will definitely need your words.

Cindy Baron: 49:49

And guess what, I still have bad days I go shopping. Yeah, I do something, you know, like, I’m like, Okay, it’s time for me to go have a steak. Dinner somewhere, you know. I mean, this is just me, you know, I don’t like to stay in the funky area of the of that. I have to, I have to go, No, I got to get out of this. Just, just go. I tackle, you know, the issues I need to tackle. But so does my easel. I sit with my easel and I tackle it with my easel. You know, I, you know, that’s my best friend, you know. So it did. You know, my kids are on their own, you know, they got, they’re doing their things, but, you know, the easel is always with me.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:31

Yeah, it’s all reliable. I hope it helps. Yes, I would say so I’m, I’m very inspired. It’s really great too, because it also puts things in perspective. Of like, you know, if, if someone such as you, for example, would go through a moment where suddenly you can lose the rest of your time, right, the time that you thought you had left to live, suddenly you’re told, Oh, it’s going to be cut short or you might not make it. I think that really highlights what your priorities are in life, right? Like what means so much to me? What do I want to do with the time that has been given to me? And what would I do now if I knew tomorrow was my last day? You know, I think those are very important things to consider, right?

Cindy Baron: 51:16

Right now, seriously, I’ve had two major obstacles that I had to fight for my life, you know, that’s, that’s basically, you know, I, it’s, I had to fight. I’ve always been in survival mode and but I turn it into a good survival mode instead of a bad survival mode, you know? And it does, it does shape you as a human being. It shapes you as an artist, you know what? What this has shaped me is, what the reason why I paint the way I paint, and I’m not done yet, you know? I want to travel. I want to paint Switzerland. So I’ve got to keep my heart in shape, because I’m climbing and painting. That’s, you know? Those are things. Those are goals. I have goals that I’m going to do. So those are things, those are things I look at, beautiful.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:05

Yes, yes, yes. And then I’m curious, do you know more or less when your book might, might be out?

Cindy Baron: 52:13

Oh, it’s in the process writing. It’s gonna, it’s, it’s, the title of the book is going to be called the guilt box, but there’s a little segment in the in the book that’s about the ever changing palette, and the in that refers to life and your artwork. So, you know, life is an ever changing palette, but so is your artwork, you know. So it’s got a double, whatever that word is, it’s got a double meaning to it. But no, it’s, it’s, it’s good, it’s gonna be, it’s, I want to help people. It’s a real life story. And I’ve had some nice, not nice things, you know, growing up, and I just, I want to share it that it doesn’t that part doesn’t have to define you, but it does define you, but you got to turn that defining into what you really want the people to see you defined as, not what you know you think you should be defined as, like, Oh, I just can’t do it, you know, with my heart surgery. Do you think, you know, the average person out there is under and go hike the Tetons. They’re going to go, nah, stay low. Now, I’m not even going to leave my house. I did it, and they I had major construction work. It’s like bridges and you name it. It’s like overpasses. You know, that’s how much construction work they did. But I could, I did I like, no, I need to climb that mountain. I need to get there. It was the most exhilarating thing I’d ever experienced. It was, and I’m going to send you that photo when we hang up. It was exhilarating, mind you, I lost like, 20 pounds, you know. And I shouldn’t lose 20 pounds, you know, I’d and it was, it was, it was hard, but it was, it was good, but I painted, I did. I hiked it, I painted. I had an show at a gallery in town, and I had the best time of my life. I did, best time of my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:20

Yes, wow. I think I also really love how you’re very much expressing, you know, this, this dark side that has happened, but then you’re so full of light, You’re so bright, you’re so like, you know, really making lemonade out of the lemons. As much as I can’t

Cindy Baron: 54:36

change anything, you can’t change a thing, but you can change this. Can’t change a thing. I can’t change any other thing to make it better, or whatever, you know, but you can change this, and this has changed to art. My painting, so paint,

Unknown: 54:56

I want to say I don’t have time. No, you have time. Fine, go paint. No, I don’t have time. Don’t do that.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:05

Yes, totally. And I also really admire your discipline, which, of course, having had worked with athletes and in athletic fields, I think it’s, it’s excellent to have built that discipline as well, which actually kind of leads me into my next question, because you were very busy being a mother as well being a family woman, helping your sons, working alongside them in their basketball careers. When did you notice or when did you finally make the jump into becoming a full time artist, and then what was that jump like for you?

Cindy Baron: 55:49

The jump? Well, everybody would say you were a full time artist, you know, raising your kids because I’d paint at night. You know, the jump came slowly, because I was already gradually getting into being more full time. Right now you can I’m labeled full time and overtime. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the jump wasn’t bad. Paying your bills is what helps you jump even a little bit more. It’s like, okay, I got bills. I bought a home. You know, I’ve got a beautiful home, and I’ve got things I’m doing to it, but the jump was slow, methodical again, and I had to pay bills. And so, you know what? It’s just like, okay, you know, I’m going, I’m gonna pay the bills. I can do this. And I was already there because I had gallery representations. I had, you know, so I had things that had to be somewhere. I just got to do it more like my sons were overseas, and I was single, so therefore, you know, what, I had all the time in the world. So it was, it was slow and methodical, but so it really wasn’t hard for me, you know, making sure the bills were paid were you know, that gives you a whole lot of discipline. You can’t tell the electric company. Sorry, I can’t pay you this month, you know. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, paying the bills is a big goal. And guess what, I had a little cushion, you know, I could, I could go full time, because being married, you know, I still, you know, he didn’t rely on my income. My income actually hurt us. So, you know, I we got to rely on on his income. And it, he did very good. You know that that’s an art in itself. And we’re and we’re good friends, but, um, so, like I said, it was a slow, methodical, so it was very easy for me to do. It really was. It was very easy. I know for other people it’s hard, you know, because you might not have the cushion behind you. I have, I had a cushion behind me, and so I couldn’t use a lot of the cushions, but, you know, I still had to, I still had to make a, you know, I still had to get out there and make a living, so and, and it worked. Now I have a nice cushion because I’m on Social Security. Yeah, so, guess what? I love it.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:39

Yes, it’s definitely, it takes a lot of pressure off, and it is, it is useful and helpful to have, you know, have had spousal support when you had it, then it’s right that, yeah, continue.

Cindy Baron: 58:50

I’m sorry I should never interrupted you. But guess what? You know, you do need that support system. You know, people out there have family you know, or friends, or whatever you know. You you do need that support system without a shadow of a doubt.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:05

So, yes, yes, yes. I think also because it really does alleviate a lot of the pressure, which, as we were saying before, sometimes, for some artists, it might be hard to have that financial pressure behind you, you know, like, oh, gosh, I got to pay the bills, and I haven’t sold anything. Because, as you know, you know, with this career, it’s highs and lows, highs and lows, highs and lows, and it’s very much planning for the future. You got a high moment where, oh, I made a good amount of money. Okay, I need to make sure that I’m putting a good portion of that into a backup account, because I don’t know if I’m going to sell anything for six months straight, and if I don’t sell anything for six months straight, I don’t want to be worried that, oh no, I’m going to get kicked out of my house. Absolutely yes. And I think that’s also a lot of artists also tend to have day jobs, or they have other, you know, reliable sources of income, especially today. And.

Cindy Baron: 1:00:00

I think, you know, yes, especially today and and the younger artists coming up without any support system. I know it’s hard, you know, and I’m a, I’m a big advocate for them. I love to to buy other artists, paintings, Christmas gifts. I buy from artists, because it’s great to support them. So, you know, at times are tough, even though you know it’s, it’s, I am okay. But today, you know, everybody is holding on a little bit, you know, tighter. So you need that, you know you need that other job, or you need something and that, you know, it’s, it’s, um, it’s, it’s hard right now, until things like stable out, you know, it’s hard right now, I have to tell you, during covid, I had a great year, because I think everybody redesigned their homes. It was buying art, you know, was a really weird thing. You would think nobody, you know, would be buying that. Was weird. But, you know, today, you know everything, it’s hard, you know. And I’m at a different stage in my life, so it’s different. But for the younger artists, yeah, it’s hard, you know, you may, you know, if I had to get out there, I would be the best waitress in the most expensive restaurant, or I would be a bartender, and I would do a great job. That’s what I would do, just so I don’t, you know, tax my mind or something like that, but no, I would turn it around like, no, no, I’ll be the best at that, but I can still paint at night or something like that, or during the day? Yes, so no, but it’s hard now, it really is, and I feel, I feel for that, and I buy when I can, I buy from artists. Yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:54

And actually, this leads very well into my next question, which obviously, you know now things are a little bit different. But is there anything that you’ve noticed and in general, I think a lot of the things that have worked in business and marketing in the past can still work, especially in the art world, since a lot of it is very much still in person, networking or real life, meeting other people or connecting with other people. What would you say is the biggest marketing or business advice that has helped you in your career?

Cindy Baron: 1:02:30

It’s changed over the years. The biggest marketing advice you know at a time you know Facebook and Instagram is, is a great freebie, you know. And that’s changing now for artists, because, you know, you used to get all these, you know, exposure and all this kind of stuff. So they’re changing that, too, and they’re now wanting money to boost things and the blah blah, blah. And to be honest, we all knew this would probably come because it’s been many years of just free online exposure and all that kind of stuff. And I’m a big advocate. When you do that, you stay very business. Don’t go down any other avenue, you know. Don’t bring in anything else every now and then, on Facebook, Instagram, it’s all my paintings. On Facebook, I did find collectors and gallery do like to know a little bit about who you are. Like, I’ll post something about my sons, you know, or it would be something like that. They like to know there’s that little personal side, but don’t go under any other avenue, and you keep it very business like and the reason why galleries want they need to know. They don’t. They don’t want to know, you know, what your belief is in this and blah, blah, blah, they want to know how well they can rely on you to get them the paintings they need to talk to their collectors to it, you know, go meet their collectors. They want to know that very business side of you and that little bit of personal you know, whether it’s your your kids or something else. But galleries watch this. You know, you may not know that the galleries do watch that also, you know, another good marketing thing. And I am a signature member with planar painters of America. And I’m also a master with oil painters of America and American impressionist society and Laguna plein air painters, and there’s a couple others on there. I keep very professional with them. My paintings, they go in those shows. Now this is another good marketing thing, but yet professional thing you need to do is you. I see out there, because I judge a lot of these shows that an artist gets one painting and that’s a, you know, it’s in all these the same shows. No, you need to make sure that you produce something new for them. Because galleries, once again, and artists and professionals like to see that you can create something you know, new. They need to know you’re just not a how do I want to a one painting person, or what, whatever I’m trying to say with that one? But you need to, your website needs to be updated. I, you know, I’m very lacks in that. And I take, I take note to myself to make sure I keep that one updated. Your resume needs to be updated, and you need to treat these shows very professional. And if you get involved with an art group, I you need to make sure your dues are paid, because they look at that too. You need to make sure everything is in line so they know you’re professional. And then you’ll be invited to maybe demo at a show or something like that. So all these things are little marketing skills that you need to keep very professional. And then you just have to get out there. You just have to, you know, go to a local restaurant or something and look at their walls and say, Listen, do you mind if I just hang a painting in here and and, you know, that’s exposure. There’s all these different little marketing skills. Get your business card, your little brochure, a little booklet. I do little postcards. When I meet somebody, I have clients that call me, and I have to be very professional with them and send photos, and yet, respect their privacy and yet, but that’s all marketing skills, because that person goes to the next person said, you need a painting you go to this person. So these are all those social skills that you need to keep up to date or in good, good favor. I’m looking for the right word for that. I when I was younger, I did all these outdoor part shows, and I had a trailer. I had it all, and I would drive to all these shows all through the Midwest and the East Coast and and I did very well. I would paint all winter, and did about six shows in the summertime. And then it came a time where, you know, I had to stop doing that so I could travel with my sons. But those outdoor park shows, I still have people coming to me because, oh, I have this painting. Do you have anything else, or whatever? So these are things, you know, it may come back from way back when to to now, but just stay very professional with what you do. And once again, the internet is great with that. I know nothing of Tiktok or any of the other kind of stuff. I don’t know that. I’m just on Instagram and Facebook, and I post every now and then. You don’t have to post every day, but when you do post, make sure it you have a little story about that piece of art or whatever, how something relates to this or relates to that, and that’s another great marketing skill. Go to galleries. I you know, in the I’m in about five galleries now, and that I can’t handle anymore, but one of the galleries, Cheryl at Highlands art gallery in Lambertville, New Jersey. I was at a basketball tournament with my son, and I went, Oh, that’s only an hour that way. I’m going to drive over there and go to the gallery, because I, you know, I always knew about her gallery. And I went in there and I introduced myself. I didn’t say, Hey, I’m looking for representation. I didn’t bring in art or anything like that. I just went to introduce myself. I and you know what? That was great. Guess what? A year later, she called me, she goes, I’d like to represent you, but she also follows to make sure, this is why I’m going back to that your postings and all that, you know, they follow to make sure you can create new work. You’re not just creating one piece of work and taking it five different six different areas. You know, they they look at the work you’re creating, and they don’t want to hold your hand or beg you for a painting or walk you through something. They need to know that you just like, I’ll get it. I have a gallery in California. Car just fine art. And they keep me tied to the easel. So, I mean, that’s, it’s really good. So I know when something goes out the door, I’ve got another one going on, on the easel So, and I go out there for, you know, a month or so at a time, and I paint, I plein air paint, so, and I stop in and I see them and talk to them. I’ll be out there again in the spring, but I got to go north. They have people I’ve got to go see, and I got to paint up north in California. So it’s as far as marketing, try everything. I’m quite sure there’s going to be something new coming down the road. And stay very professional. Go out and meet gallery owners. Don’t go carrying a painting in like in the old days. Just go in and meet them and you know. And then you can tell them, Well, I’m an artist, and you know what? You never know what will come with that. And there’s, there’s new things. I think there’s a new avenue on the internet, and I can’t remember what it was called. Somebody wrote about it, and I can’t remember it was called, but there’s going to be a ton of new things coming down the road, so you gotta try it all. Just stay very professional. Introduce yourself and stay very professional.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:19

Yeah, you know, you make some excellent points about the art world, because a lot of it has become very online, stuff, like Facebook, Instagram, and that is very useful, but it’s still at its core, a very people focused career. You have, like you said, you have to go and introduce yourself. You have to, you know, talk to people. You have to be basically, you have to present yourself, to be in front of mind, right? If you want to work with a gallery, a gallery is not going to know who the heck you are if you don’t go up to them and present yourself, and, you know, obviously not with the sole intent of working, you know, using them, right? Because they’re people, too, and they’re a lot of artists have described galleries and working with galleries as a relationship, whether it’s family or a marriage, either one. So it is a very people focused thing. And talking to other artists, you know, going to shows, going to any event that has other artists and galleries and collectors, it is so people focused, you would be surprised, since it’s such a lonely career. You know.

Cindy Baron: 1:12:22

One other avenue is the gallery in California, cargu, fine art. He saw a painting of mine because I won an award at Laguna, and he saw it, and he called me. He goes, I’d like to represent you, because it was in a magazine. So that’s the other avenues. The magazines are good too, you know. So yeah, and they have great programs for artists and payment plans and whatever. So you know that the magazines will work well for you. And that’s how I got into some of the galleries, is they saw my paintings and called so that’s another avenue, and they it gets expensive, but, you know, ask the Ask the magazine and the advertisers. Can you work with me? I need help. So it doesn’t hurt to ask,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:12

No, exactly, and you have to have the, you know, just the worst thing they can say is no, you know, like, just ask. That’s what. That’s also one of my favorite things to think about. It’s like, well, what have I got to lose? I already am not in the magazine, so might as well ask, you know. But yeah. And then I wanted to ask you if you have any final advice for anyone listening out there who wants to be either a full time artist or make a living from their work.

Cindy Baron: 1:13:41

Okay, you get, just got to do it. You know, there’s, there’s a famous look. It’s not my slogan, but, you know, it’s a Nike slogan that says, Just do it. You just got to do it. But don’t procrastinate. Because guess what? You might not be able to paint tomorrow, you know, so you got to do it today. So don’t procrastinate. We made that word as artists, try to try to eliminate, eliminate that in your vocabulary. So you just got to go, you just got to do it, and don’t prepare, procrastinate and just know there’s a space for you somewhere. There’s a lot of artists out there, there’s a space for you. You can find that space. You know, it’s it’s it, it will happen if you work hard enough for it. I have a great work ethic, and I have goals. I have my faith and I have my family. So, you know, I put everything in the proper order and just do it. Tomorrow is not promised. I didn’t make that slogan, but Tomorrow is not promised for anybody you know, so do it today. So that’s, that’s the best advice I can give you. And don’t worry about failure. I’m still failing. So that’s, that’s my advice. Is just going to do it perfect.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:03

And then do you have any upcoming shows or exhibitions or workshops that you would like to promote?

Cindy Baron: 1:15:09

Last year, I was on the road so much, and I said, I’m not going to do that this year. Guess what? I’m looking at my chalkboard because I’m little old school here, but I have an solo show at the Providence art club in Providence, Rhode Island, coming up in May. But I have two workshops, one in Atlanta. It’s two workshops. One’s an oil and one’s a watercolor. And guess what? It’s all on my website, if you want to find it. And then I have, I’m teaching two again in Scottsdale, Arizona. Love that area, in April, the end of April, and that is a what, one week is a watercolor, and one week is an oil. And then I’m, once again, just like last year, I’m running a car. And I drove through the canyons and painted all solo. And I went to Sedona and painted. I went to the Grand Canyon and painted. I went to the vermilion cliffs and painted. I’m doing the same thing, but I gotta be in Utah at, um, oh my gosh, I’m not quite sure, and that will be in May. And so I’m going to be on the road again for another, oh, three weeks. And I said I wasn’t going to do this, but it just looks so appetizing that I went, I gotta go, so I’m doing that. And then in September, I’m with a group of very talented, amazing women, and we’re called the wild women of the West, but they live on the east too, so it’s a show, and that will be in September, which will be on my website. And so, yes, I have a lot coming up. And then July and August, I’m it’s Gigi camp. I get my grandkids, and it’s, they call it Gigi camp. So we, we, we have fun. So I devote that time to family, and then September, it’s back to work. So beautiful. That’s it, but I’ll have it all on my website. I can’t list all the dates, but it will be up on my website, perfect.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:15

And do you mind telling us what your website is and also on social media? Okay?

Cindy Baron: 1:17:20

Um, is Cindy barron.com and then it’s basically Cindy Barron art, Cindy Barron. Just Google Cindy Barron, and it’s right there. My kids kept it. My kids set that up. So they kept it very easy for me to get it. So it’s just Cindy barron.com so you can look at, you can go there on my website. I have, I just update it with the coming workshops, and I got a update with the shows coming up. And then I do the Coeur d’Alene art auction. I’m an invited artist, so I paint for that, and that’s in May too. So these are all things that will keep me tied to the easels behind me.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:05

Yes. All reliable. Yes, yes. Well, awesome. Thank you so much, Cindy for sharing your incredible story. I am so looking forward to your book. I think I would, I would definitely love to read a copy of it in the future, so I will also, I will sign up to your newsletter so you can notify me when it’s ready, because I’m I’m so down to read it, but thank you so much for being here on the show today.

Cindy Baron: 1:18:33

Thank you. I so appreciate you thinking of me, and I appreciate that so much. And I wish the belt best for you and and your endeavors, and just

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:45

paint Yes. Thank you. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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On today’s episode we sat down with Sandra Duran Wilson, an abstract painter, sculptor, author, and scientist based in Santa Fe. Sandra discusses how her dual upbringing among scientists and artists, plus early plein air experiences with her great aunt, shaped her experimental, curiosity-driven approach to art. She explains that creating is “like breathing” and that her artistic voice emerged over thousands of paintings, influenced by her background in cognitive science and early fascination with cellular structures seen through a microscope. She also discusses how intention, story, and lived experience transform craft into art, emphasizing that story can be conveyed through color, texture, layers, and emotion rather than literal representation. Sandra describes her book Awakening Your Creative Soul and related “soul spark” exercises as a manual for weekly play and experimentation, rooted partly in her years working with people in addiction and trauma recovery. Sandra also gives us tips about quieting the inner critic, using strategies like “muting” it, keeping a playful side canvas, working quickly with timers, and embracing imperfection and surrender—especially for perfectionist oriented artists. Sandra also shares how she built a career as a full-time artist through outdoor shows, teaching, writing, and relationships with collectors. Finally, Sandra highlights her upcoming Ireland workshop and a long-term installation project wrapping burned trees in painted canvases to respond to climate-change-driven wildfires.

Sandra’s FASO site:
sandraduranwilson.com

Sandra’s Social Media:
instagram.com/sandraduranwilson/

facebook.com/sandraduranwilsonartist

Sandra’s YouTube Channel:
youtube.com/sandraduranwilson

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Transcript:

Sandra Duran Wilson: 0:00

So don’t be afraid to call yourself an artist. Just you get to choose what kind of artist you get to be. Go do what motivates you? Follow that voice. My voice has changed. My direction of where I’m going reinvent yourself. Being true, I think, is a good part of it, and I think if you’re true, you might find that happiness.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:21

Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors the gold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world. In order to hear their advice and insights. On today’s episode, we sat down with Sandra Duran Wilson, an abstract painter, sculptor, author and scientist based in Santa Fe, New Mexico, Sandra discusses how her dual upbringing among scientists and artists, plus early plein air experiences with her great aunt shaped her experimental curiosity driven approach to art. She explains that creating is like breathing, and that her artistic voice emerged over 1000s of paintings influenced by her background in cognitive science and early fascination with cellular structures seen through a microscope. She also discusses how intention, story and lived experience transform craft into art, emphasizing that story can be conveyed through color, texture, layers and emotion rather than literal representation. Sandra describes her book awakening your creative soul and related soul spark exercises as a manual for weekly play and experimentation, rooted partly in her years working with people in addiction and trauma recovery, Sandra also gives us tips about quieting the inner critic, using strategies like muting it, keeping a playful side canvas, working quickly with timers and embracing imperfection and surrender, especially for perfectionist oriented artists. Sandra also shares how she built a career as a full time artists through outdoor shows, teaching, writing and relationships with collectors. Finally, Sandra highlights her upcoming Ireland workshop and a long term installation project, wrapping burned trees in painted canvases to respond to climate change driven wildfires. Welcome Sandra to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 2:19

I’m doing great, Laura, thank you. Thanks for inviting me to the show.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:23

Yeah, thank you for being here. You’re actually I’m so happy to say our first abstract artist, I have been researching your work because I think your work is very beautiful. It’s expressive, it’s atmospheric, as you know, is expected of abstract but I really love the personal touches that you have through your work. It’s very It has an ethereal quality to it, and the composition, and I think that’s also why I wanted to bring you on, is precisely because I find that abstract art is extremely composition heavy, a lot more than people might expect or realize. So I am so excited to pick your brain also, besides that, you’re a scientist, which is also really cool. Oh, man. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 3:16

Okay? Well, as you said, my name is Sandra Duran Wilson, and and I am a painter primarily, but I also do sculptural work and installation work, but primarily painting. I also am an author of six art technique books on acrylic painting. I’ve written for acrylic Artist Magazine, and way back in the day, several other magazines that are no longer around, I had monthly columns, and I’m a teacher, although I’m finishing up that career pretty soon, just to focus more on my own work, and I’ve been teaching People for 25 years, both in person and online. I have a YouTube channel which has over 100 videos on it that it’s really geared toward just ideas for people that are just starting, or even someone who’s looking for something weird and quirky, because my background Lynn’s, you know, kind of I love to experiment. And so in a video, you might find me just going off track and oh, well, let’s just try this and see what happens. So that’s what I do. And I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and it’s a very beautiful place high up in the mountains. A lot of people think we’re in the desert, but we’re not. We have snow outside the window right now, and can go skiing, and it’s a very beautiful place, very inspirational place to live. And artists have been coming here because of the. Light. We are at 7000 feet altitudes, so we have these incredibly blue skies and beautiful light to influence us. So that’s me, awesome. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:13

And I love that you said that you love to experiment, because, of course, you know, being scientists, artists, I think that’s one of the things about painting that I think a lot of people don’t explore as much, which is experimentation, one because it’s it can be scary, since it’s unexpected results, but I think that’s one of the the things that a lot of artists should be doing a little bit more, is experimenting, at least on their free time. But I want to dive into your background a little bit more. So do you mind telling us a bit about when you began to follow the path of the artist?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 5:49

Well, I think I have to say that I always did, just because of the family I grew up in. And on. Half the family, they were scientists, doctors. The other half, they’re an artist. So for me, did it was a combination of the two. Not a lot of times people will say, Oh, you’re good at art, but you’re not good at math or science. And so that kind of gets stuck in people’s brains that, you know, oh, I can’t do that. I can’t be good at math, I can’t be good at science, but I like to draw. Well, it’s, you know, drawing is science in a sense. So I had my first oil painting set at the age of six, and I would go plan air painting with my great aunt, Santa Duran, and we painted. I grew up in the border of Mexico, and so we would go out and just paint, and then she would help my brothers and I, we would do little landscapes and still lives. And it was, it was just a lot of fun, and but as an artist, as a career, it was probably as a teenager when I started. And I’ve had a lot of different ways of art making as a living, but when I was a teenager, I think the first thing I did there was something I wanted some like a bag or some kind of clothes. And my mom was like, No, I’m not buying that for you. So I said, Well, I’m going to make it. And so I it was a leather and so I got the leather, and I did the stitching and the bead work on it. And before you know it, my friends wanted something, and then, you know, a little shop wanted something. So I was making and selling accessories, and then that led to later on to stone cutting sculpture, then silversmithing and jewelry, on and on and on. So yeah, I’ve had other jobs during that time too, but I’ve always done art.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:02

Wow, I love that the there’s so much emphasis in handcraft because, you know, I, I like to think that at its core, you know, being an artist like a in general, I think you’re a crafts person. And then it becomes art when it I guess it transcends just an object that is useful, right? It’s like, Oh, this isn’t just, like a belt. This is beautiful belt, right? It’s a belt that is made with a specific stitch that gives the specific quality. It isn’t just, you know, oh, I bought this painting print at, I don’t know Michael’s, which nothing wrong with that, but it’s a little bit different when it’s made by human through their hands and their expression and their lived experience. I think that’s what really elevates handcrafts. Nothing wrong with handcraft. I think handcraft is amazing and beautiful, and I am also a very crafty person, so I can relate.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 9:04

I think the intention of Art Is it art? It comes from your purpose. I mean, you’re the person creating. I was just at a museum show yesterday, and it had to do with South African telephone wire weaving. So it started out as an essential way of during apartheid, many of the people were put into places where they had to work and they were not allowed their own belongings. So they were taken they were personalized, like a mug or something that they used every day, and telephone wire was something that they could go scavenge and find. So you take that it’s an, you know, you’re basically repurposing, recycling art or materials, excuse me, then you elevate it to something beyond a. Just craft. It becomes something of who that person is. It gives their voice a place out in the world that will last past them. And if you look at art in that sense, I mean, there’s so many different forms of art. You know, we were talking earlier about ancient art, things that we see left in the world. Many of those things were just maybe murals on a wall that were decorative or instructional. So I think you know to come back full circle to what is art. I mean, craft. You definitely have to have the craft of something. You know, an elephant can take its tail and make a painting, so to speak. And I’ve seen this at art shows. But is that art, or is it just happenstance? I mean, for the person who’s going to pay a lot of money for it, I guess it’s art, but what is your relationship with it? And I think what is art becomes a very personal question and answer,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:12

yes, yes, very well stated. I totally agree. And actually this very seamlessly brings me to a very good question that I think, I think it’s a question that has many different answers for many different people, and that is, why do you create?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 11:33

For me, personally, I create because it’s like breathing. I have to, you know, it’s, it’s just something I’ve always, always done, whether, you know, as a child, as a teenager, moving on, and even, even when I was doing other making jewelry, I always thought of my my jewelry as miniature sculptures, and I always wanted to take them and make them really large, but metal is expensive, and, you know, it’s 20 something years old at the time, and I couldn’t afford to do that, but it was always a way for me to express my view of the world. And I think really deep inside. The reason I create is to make sense of my view of the world, because sometimes it’s like a, you know, it’s not a normal view. Most artists don’t see the world as as other people do. And I’ve, I’ve seen some like little cartoons or memes where somebody might see red, blue and green, and an artist is going to see 30 different shades of that. And we just, we see the world in a different way. And as a as a scientist, I see the layers. I mean, my first abstract painting was done when I was six years old, looking through my dad’s microscope at cellular level. So I’m painting the cells. I’m painting I think it was a leaf or something, and so I’m seeing the, you know, the structure. So when I look at like a forest, I see the trees, but I also see in my mind, what makes up beliefs, what makes up art, what makes up the earth? And I see all of these webs of interconnectedness, and that is, I think why I create is to make sense of that world so to kind of draw other people into it.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:40

And I think you mentioned there something very important, which is, you know your vision, right, the way you see the world. And I think that’s something it’s very interesting when you think about it, because that requires you know the vision, right? It requires self awareness to know what your vision is, of course, and that what’s funny is, I find that it’s a little bit like that transition between early childhood to maybe like later childhood, teenage hood, where it feels somewhat like you’re emerging it doesn’t. It’s like a slow emergence into consciousness, rather than, Oh, I’m awake now, at least for I don’t know, maybe someone out there does feel that I suddenly woke up, type of feeling. But I feel like that’s how artistic vision kind of is, and then developing it, or even noticing it. I think that’s one of the harder aspects at first, because, interestingly, I think that that’s that leads to artistic voice eventually. So I wanted to ask you, actually, how, how have you developed or noticed your own vision and turned that artistic vision into what became your voice? As an artist?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 15:02

Well, I often get asked by my students is, you know, if they’re just starting out, how do I develop an artistic voice? And my simple answer to them is, you paint a lot, or you draw a lot, or you sculpt, you know, whatever your medium is you do it a lot. And I remember hearing the saying, after you’ve made 1000 paintings, then you start to figure out what you’re doing. And when I was first starting out and I heard that, I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, that’s crazy. But now that I’m past 1000 paintings, I’m absolutely understand what that means, because even as even as much as I try and maybe do something a little different, my voice is like my voice, it’s not going to Change. And it has gotten that way from just painting a lot. I don’t care if I’m print making or doing acrylic, or doing encaustic or sculpture, this vision in my mind is still coming through. And you said something earlier, that is is very it’s developmental, and the way the brain develops. As my final degree in science was in cognitive science, how we learn and develop and so that age from, you know, basically around two years old, the children draw the big headed people. And that is true all over the world, no matter the culture. Then as the brain develops, they begin to change that self awareness, as you said, Laura, and it, you know, they begin to be aware of things outside of themselves and other people. There was a very wonderful study, I cannot recall the woman’s name. It was back in the 60s in San Francisco, she followed children for a very, very long time, from early childhood all the way up, I think, until about 12 in drawing in art, she collected their art, and around the age of nine, most kids stopped drawing. And what happens at the age of nine is you develop, you start to develop abstract reasoning. And they wanted something to be so realistic, if they couldn’t draw the fire truck or the doll, or whatever they were, you know, the, you know, spaceship, whatever they were trying to draw, if they couldn’t draw it. So realistically, they just gave up. And I think for a lot of artists, you get to a point where you’re like, Okay, I want to draw this or develop this. And for me, it’s an abstract artist. I mean, yes, I had years of training as a as a drafts person. You know, I know how to draw. I mean, look at Picasso. He was one of the best drawers there is. But then I wanted to go beyond that. I wanted to see what that’s where my voice started to come in. So what is my voice trying to say without the apple sitting on the table. What is the feeling of the apple? And that’s where abstraction comes in. And I think a lot of artists get to that point to where, okay, I want something more. I want to see beyond this, whether it’s changing their style or changing their approach to art making,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:41

yes, yes. And I love that you mentioned that you know that it takes time, right, that figuring it out, what it all means to you, how it comes through. Those are all so dependent on that, you know, act of just continuing to perform it. And I, I imagine all the nine year old kids who didn’t, didn’t draw that fire truck perfect, and they didn’t give up, and we’re like, Gosh, gosh darn it, I’m gonna do it no matter what. And I think that’s, you know, the some of the artists like us who just stuck around and kept going because we just needed to continue. Like you said, it’s like breathing. It’s you know, like this is what comes naturally. And I think also that reminds me a bit of your book, which you mentioned to me last time, called awakening your creative soul. Because there’s, you know, the this, you know, it’s and it’s so funny, because it’s very much a scientific method. Now that I think about it, and speaking to you about it’s like, of course, you know, you you have your hypothesis, you experiment, you get your conclusion, and then you repeat and maybe change. Change some stuff around in your variables, right? And eventually, of course, that leads to that artistic voice, but also primarily that creative act. You mentioned that it helps wake up the artistic spirit. Do you mind telling us a bit about your book, how it developed, and then a little bit of what you would recommend for artists out there.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 20:27

Well, the book was, it was the sixth book, my last one. The first five were very specific techniques. One was acrylic painting for encaustic effects. The other one was all about transfers so on this book on awakening your creative soul. It was really, it was a way to get people to create every week. You know, this is was for people who are not in their studios. These were for people who have to, you know, do their other life skills, jobs, whatever, and then they have to carve out a little bit of time to feed that creativity. And so I also developed a little thing that went along with it. Was called mixed media soul sparks, which was how the YouTube channel started. And it was just, you know, here’s 15 minutes. So follow along with this for 15 minutes, and it maybe it’ll give you a little spark of inspiration. So every week there were 52 there are 52 chapters in the book, which is goes along with each week of the year. But just to jump back a little bit where some of the the ideas came from. I spent 10 years working in a residential treatment facility for addiction and trauma. Now I wasn’t a therapist in that sense, but I got to and it wasn’t an art therapist, but I was more of a guide for finding, for helping people find their spirit. And I would we had 13 acres of land. I take people out on the land. We do different things. Sometimes we do crafts, sometimes we do experiential stuff. It was just a way for them to tap into that part of their spirit that had been pressed down for so long. And so that’s how some of the ideas made it into the book. Were things that I had developed over that decade, and people, you know, that really helped them in in some ways. And so I thought, Okay, well, let’s take that idea and work with it. And some themes were like related to seasons. Others were just like meditation or self discovery and creating from that sense of place. Because I really believe that the creative process is it’s it’s not just what you create with your hands or your feet or your mouth or whatever you know it is you know, whether you’re an actor or a painter, a singer, musician, it’s your whole emotional, your mental, your spiritual, all of that goes into the creation of whatever you want to create. And if you’re locked off from a part of that, if you’re, you know, creating something very rigid, and you’re not tapping into that soul Spark, then your art is not going to have a depth that it could have. And so I believe when you really dig deep, you find that depth, and that really gives you a stronger voice. So the book is, it’s not a technical guide for painting by any means. It’s, I would say it’s a manual for play.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:56

So I think that’s perfect, because, again, you know, play an experiment are very similar, yes, yeah, yes, yes. I remember

Sandra Duran Wilson: 24:10

an artist giving up. She was like, Oh, don’t use that word play. Art is serious business. Like, okay, I can see that that means a lot to you, that it’s serious business, but I don’t know. I just don’t want to go through my life all serious. I’m like, too much of a playful person, so I’d rather my worldview be more playful.

Laura Arango Baier: 24:38

Yeah, and I think there’s something else that comes attached to play that experimentation also has, which is curiosity. And I think that’s what makes gosh, I feel like a lot of the inventions that have happened, you know, through history, have just been through sheer Cure. Curiosity, just someone who’s like, how does that work? How can I make that work? It’s like, every time I look at like ancient Roman technology, I’m always fascinated about the people who put their heads together to make it happen. And that’s no different from, you know, someone wanting to develop their paintings, right? It’s like, Oh, I wonder what happens if I switch out this red for a green, just opposite, right? How do I, how can I use that and make a similar image, and then suddenly you learn something new through that? But it is, I think, nurturing that curiosity that I think also really helps the artwork, right? Absolutely.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 25:45

That’s like, one of my taglines. It’s like, I’m a curiosity instigator. And it’s, it’s like, to me, that’s the whole, I guess, if I had to sum it up in one word, why do I create? And it’s like, to entertain my curiosity is, it really is, because it’s like, well, what would happen if, if I tried this? And, like I said, I’ll do that a lot of time on camera when I’m filming for for YouTube videos, like, I go totally off track. Oh, let’s try this, you know, and see what happens and and if it turns to mush. Well, now we know, how do I am a lot of times when I’m teaching in person, I’ll really try and mess something up as much as I can, because I don’t want people to think that, oh, every painting is like, oh, it just runs along this perfect course, oh, gosh, any artist knows that never happens. And I call it the the really ugly middle. Sometimes those teenage years can just get really nasty, and you have to work through that phase. And if you get to that place and you put something away and you don’t look at it again, you’re never going to learn how to really push beyond that. And I don’t care what type of artwork you do, you’re always going to have a painting that’s going to push you, and you’re going to have to say, Well, what do I do now? And if you’re not willing to get down and dirty and messy with it, then you’re losing an opportunity to really push beyond your comfort zone. And so I would rather just jump right into it right away. It’s like, oh, let me just see how I can really mess this up. And the people are like, in the class, you know, they might, maybe I have a painting going there. Oh, that’s so beautiful. I’m like, Okay, let’s just mess it up. And they’re like, Oh no, and it’s like, okay, so now it’s not precious anymore. Now I can really go for it, because I’m not so attached to the preciousness, and I’m not afraid to try something new. That’s a big piece. Big, big lesson.

Laura Arango Baier: 28:02

Yeah, it is huge lesson. Because you mentioned a few things there that, especially that last one, you know, kill your darlings. Yes, exactly. It’s a it can be hard. And I think it’s because oftentimes when we create something, and I’m sure it happens in abstract as much as it does in realism. When you make something and you have no idea how to replicate it or how it happened, right, you become obsessively protective of it, but oftentimes that holds you back even further from something even better, right? Because you’ve now limited your vision to this, this false sense of perfection, right? Perfection tends to hold us back from making something even cooler, because perfection is such a strange concept that is still limited by your own lived experiences, so you can never really attain it. But also, the other thing you mentioned there, which I think many of our listeners, including myself, struggle with, is when you’re when you’re doing these experiments right, when you’re allowing yourself to mess things up, as you’re saying, how, how how can you turn off the hyper critical voice that’s always vigilant, that always wants you to No, no, what are you doing? You’re messing it up. But like, how do you turn off that judgmental side? It’s probably not perfectly possible, but how do you recommend it? Well, I

Sandra Duran Wilson: 29:39

learned a long time ago to trust the process, because, you know, the being an abstract painter, in a way, it’s different than being a realistic painter. I may start out with something realistic, and then I turn it into something abstract, or do. Other way around. There’s a painting behind me, if you can’t see, if you’re just listening, but it is a painting I did based on a hike to the Grand Canyon. It’s the one back there, and it was more the experience of the feeling. There’s some little details in there about the petroglyphs that I saw, the night sky, some other elements. So I’m taking the trip. I’m taking the emotions. I’m taking everything from that journey, and I’m learning how to put it into a painting without it being realistic. So in my mind, I’m still seeing all the realistic elements, but I’m translating it to something different. I think when I’m translating, it’s easier for me to turn that critic off, because I’m like, okay, critic, you’re speaking Greek. I’m speaking Swahili over here, so don’t even mess with me. Okay? And, and it’s like, this is how I have to operate for a while now, later on, when I’m coming back to the painting and trying to finish it, you know, the critic may come up, but here’s a here’s a real important piece about the critic. The critic has a function, you know, I there’s a the critic that is totally out of control that you know, goes back to your childhood, or, you know, that teacher that told you you could not paint. Why did you paint that tree blue? You know, that’s the out of control. Critic, okay, that one you can learn to turn off. And one of the tricks I use with my students is, I said, Okay, think of it as a remote, remote control. Boom. You hit the mute button. So she’s working at a table, and she drew this circle on the table, and I’m going around the room, and I come back over there, she’s pounding on the table the button. She goes, that critic is really being strong right now. It’s like, so she’s muting the critic. So sometimes just a tangible tool like that a visual to mute that critic. But the other critic is, is that you need to listen to, it’s like, well, that shape is really not working, and that color next to that color, maybe you should do something about that. So that’s you have to have that critical part of analyzing your painting, but the out of control critic, yeah, not so much so muted.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:42

Well, oh, I wish I were that easy to mute it. I’ll have to try

Sandra Duran Wilson: 32:46

this practice. Practice, yes, and sometimes just go, just get an old remote, and the actual physical act of holding it and pressing that button becomes a trigger in your mind. So it’s, it’s a matter of training your mind. It’s doable. It just takes a little practice and turn your paintings upside down. Absolutely always turn them upside down. So then you you fix things sometimes just by turning them upside down in abstraction. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:21

Yeah. That’s actually one of the big things they recommend sometimes for you know, if you’re I mean, one of the things, obviously, is just step away for a little while. That’s one of the big ones, because your eye gets tired, your brain gets tired, and it’s good to see things with a fresh eye, especially the next morning. And that can either be a really good thing a really bad thing. It could be like, Oh, I think I did great today, and you go to your students suddenly, like, oh my gosh, what was I thinking? Or it can have the opposite reaction, which is like, Oh, this is terrible. And the next year, like, Huh, that’s not so bad. Yeah, it’s, you know, it happens either way. But, yeah, I think that critical voice that, you know, big, loud, mean voice, I think that’s the really hard one to shut off when you’re experimenting. Do you think maybe playing or trying to switch into like just focusing on play? You think that would also help a lot more with showing off that big guy.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 34:23

I think it really that’s a really good point. Is that, you know, if you shift the mindset to where I am not creating my masterpiece, here I am just experimenting. So my trip with that, and I do this still all the time in my studio, I always have a second panel or canvas around that. Maybe I’ll have some leftover paint, and I just really don’t like to waste things, so I would just go paint something on or I have some medium, I’ll go make a texture over there, and I’m not attached to that piece. It’s not like, I’m just like, throwing paint on it, piling it up. I’m actually putting it on with intention, but not like, am on my masterpiece over here. So this is my play piece, and you can do that if you’re a realistic painter or if you’re an abstract painter, and you’re going to find that a lot of times, your play piece, it’s going to be much better than your masterpiece, and that is a great way to train yourself to let go and because you can tell that critic, hey, look, I’m just a silver I’m playing over here. Don’t, don’t, don’t be sticking your nose. Don’t even look over here. You know, if you want to go do that, go to the other one. Leave me alone. I’m over here. And pretty soon you’re going to find that, Oh, I love this technique. I’m going to do it more often, and then you find it’s easier to make that switch.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:58

That’s pretty genius,

Sandra Duran Wilson: 36:00

but it’s your mindset you gotta trick. You gotta trick that, that critic. So there are ways to trick it. And then after you keep doing this over time, it gets less and less, you know. It’s just like any kind of trauma, you know, over time, it starts to recede so but I think the you know, like speaking of looking at it as trauma, it’s like, okay by confronting it, by saying, Okay, I see you, I hear you, but this is what I’m going to do about it. So this is what I choose to do about it. So it is an internal conversation that you have. And yes, so painting is a great way to work through issues.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:47

It is. I mean, I think for many of us, we come to realize eventually, you know, when you’re and, like you said, it doesn’t really depend on the intent, right, and on that self awareness aspect of, you know, reflection, which I think many artists have it. Yeah, a lot of people that I’ve spoken to usually find that their work really does reflect their inner thoughts, whether it’s inner turmoil, happiness, etc, and sometimes it might even show the opposite, which is funny. I recently interviewed an artist who said that she had the opposite reaction. It’s almost like, you know, when she was upset, her work would reflect happiness instead, and then when she was happy, she would enjoy looking at the darker aspects. So it’s like, oh yeah, that’s pretty cool. But I really love that trick that you mentioned for that critical voice. Because I think, like I said, many artists struggle with that and having that outlet of like, Oh, I’m just gonna play over here. And then once that play, you know, works out. And I totally agree, I have noticed that sometimes my little doodles or fun stuff that I do on the side always have. It’s almost like this, this like they have, like, more air to breathe. If that makes sense, it’s if it’s liberated, it’s more free than like, the very exact like thing. Sometimes a color study, right? A lot of people who do plein air, for example, they’ll say, like, their initial feeling of an area, and when they painted those brush strokes, oftentimes are much more alive than the final studio piece, which is very interesting.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 38:32

Well, it’s because they’re, they’re putting themselves into that, you know, that emotion at that time, and another great way to get that same alive feeling is to limit your time. I do. I started out doing a thing. It was like seven minute paintings. And of course, you know, obviously they’re very small. You could have your palette all mixed up. And I found that I reduced it to anywhere under five, sometimes even three minutes, if I was doing a really quick, like you said, color landscape study or something, because I found that what happened between five and seven minutes is I started to get in there with those Little details, and it lost that freshness. So I recommend that, you know, to just start your studio day, or even if you’ve just got 10 minutes, you know, mix up a quick little palette and just, you know, keep a little notebook around, and it’s just, it’s really liberating to do that. Set a timer, okay, four or five minutes, and boom, you’re done.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:43

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Sandra Duran Wilson: 43:20

What exactly do you mean by externally motivated?

Laura Arango Baier: 43:24

So I would say externally motivated examples would be like, Oh, the way that that guy painted that is so cool. I want to paint something exactly like that. Or my gallerist is telling me I should paint this more, and I guess it’s okay, because I kind of enjoy it. Or even just, you know, being too exposed to, like I said, like a social media or like a lot of outside influences, that kind of muddle, that sort of inner voice that’s like trying to come out. How do you balance that?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 44:00

Well, I think that you know, once you’re aware of your inner voice, once you know your inner voice, that at least from Okay, I’m going to, just going to speak from my experience. I know what my visions for many things are, for many projects, my inner voice, I know I trust it, but I love to look at other techniques, other ideas. And many times it’s like something I see in a museum show or gallery show, it’s like, Oh, I really like that idea, but that idea sparks something else for me, so I can take that grain and plant it in my field, and it’s going to come up and it’s going to show my voice. Now, if you’re just starting out, and you’re looking at a lot of different things on social media, or hopefully you’re going to gallery shows and to museum shows to. See and experience many different kinds of art. That’s how we learn. I mean, that’s how it used to be. You would go paint from the Masters, and you have to be influenced by that to hone your skill. But then you and again, it comes back to just paint more paint, more paint, more you might find that I really like how this particular technique. I mean, personally, for me, I love texture, whether it’s applied texture or implied texture. And I’m a technique driven person, so I’m going to say, Oh, well, I like how that what if I did this? What if I use this material and incorporate it in to that and and just played around with that. But when somebody tells me, Oh, you better paint this way, I’m like, really. Now I do commissions for people, but where I would tell them, it’s like, okay, we’re deciding on the size, we’re deciding on the color palette, and then you leave the rest to me, and I’ll send you pictures, and I don’t take payment until I’m done, because I’m not going to paint something that I can’t sell myself. So whether it’s for a gallery or whether it’s for a person, you know, this is like, this is what I paint. But yes, I’m flexible, you know, I can, I can paint you something, you know, in this color palette or so, there’s a way to work around it, but still stay true to your own voice. And I really think that you need to be exposed to a lot of different kinds of art. I remember when I first started in art school, and I was looking at performance art, it’s like, the hell is this? Like? I just really didn’t get it, and I found that the stronger reaction I had to something the more I understood it, that I got drawn into it over time, and because I began to look underneath what, what is this person? You’re sitting in an empty room, wrapped in a hide, you know? And it was like, or they’re, you know, so, just something really bizarre. And I said, Okay, well, why are they doing this, you know, I got curious. So once I started unearthing the why of what they’re doing, I began to understand it, and that, I think, helped me develop my voice, because it’s like, why am I painting this. Why am I seeing the world this way? So when you’re when you see something that you’re kind of like, oh, I don’t like that. Well, why don’t you like it? Understand why you don’t like it. This was a challenge I used to do. Sometimes I would like be going back in the days when we had magazines. You could do it on social media now, but I’d be flipping through a magazine, and maybe I was looking at doing a remodel project in my house. And so I’m looking at like a house magazine, and I’m looking through it, and it’s like, they’ve got colors or they’ve got decorations that I just I can’t stand, but I’d have to challenge myself to find one thing on the page that I liked, and so that’s a good exercise to go. Hmm, why don’t I like this? And what is there in that that I can take and use myself? Yeah?

Laura Arango Baier: 48:44

So, yes. So I actually do the same thing, which is so funny, and I’m sure maybe some other people have done it in a different way. It’s kind of like, you know, your sibling or a friend shows you maybe an outfit that they really like, and it’s not really your style. You don’t vibe with it, but it’s their style. So you try to find something in it that you like, so you say something positive, unless it’s just absolutely horrendous, and you’re just like, What are you even thinking? But I think that’s, yeah, I totally agree. That’s a very important quality, too. And once again, it makes perfect sense. You know, being someone who, you know, who’s a scientist, right? You have to almost or not always, but I think you become so naturally used to asking yourself the why of everything all the time. And I think that’s one of the best ways to go through life actually, because you don’t just say, Oh, I really hate this, right? It’s like, but why? You know, I think that’s such an important quality, because I used to have that reaction about specific artwork as well. And then, you know, once. Start asking yourself, but why do I not like it? What? What is it that it represents to me? Or maybe it reminds me of some negative experience I may have had? And then suddenly you’re in the realm of like, you know, critical thinking and reflection, and then self awareness, and then you can look at the piece again, and then almost make peace with it, because you’re like, Ah, I understand now, this is the thing. And you can pull something, like you said, Something positive from it, then you that you then can pull into your own work, or into story, which I think that’s something else that I wanted to cover with you a little bit about story, because that’s, I think it becomes very much attached to, just like, you know, writing a book, a really good book, really good plot. I think painting also has that composition of story that it’s really based on story. How have you develop story in your work?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 51:05

Well, I think story is any visual artist or any artist, any creator, their story. I mean, we are all storytellers, whether we’re artists or not. I mean, just our relationships, the way we go through life, we live on stories. You know, the stories are about interactions with other people. And if you’re not having interactions with other people, that, in itself, is a story. So to just to get back to, you know, what we were saying right before, it’s like, if you have a reaction to something, you know, and then to go, why don’t I like this or what? So here’s a tip, the stronger, the bigger your reaction is, there’s something there, and that gets to story. So, like, if the story is, you know, what am I trying to say, it’s like, I’ll, I’ll read quantum physics or science fiction, and it’s like, the possibilities. For me, it’s like these amazing possibilities. I almost went into physics, and my friends who were physicists, they’re like, you know, you really would not do well with this. It’s too too structured for you. And I’m like, you’re probably right, you know? So I started to look at physics in a different way. I would read about theoretical physics, and it’s like, oh, this is possible. And so I would start to create worlds of, what does it look like? What does a glue on or move on or black hole look like in to me, and what is the story of like? Why would I even, you know, I didn’t have to have a whole sci fi opera, but it was just like, what does this look like? And why would it look like that? And so that would be a story. It was funny. I was doing, I spent a lot of years doing outdoor art shows here in Santa Fe and right next to us is Los Alamos, which is a large research scientific facility with a lot of physicists. And they would have big conferences, and I’d get these physicists drawn into my my booth, and I remember having a conversation with one one day and saying, yes, you know, this is a glue on, and this is a move on, and which are tiny, little particles. And he’s looking at it, he goes, hmm, yeah, I think that’s what it would look like. Alright, I got it. But, you know story, story can be told through color. Story can be told through composition, emotion, lack of movement, stillness, chaos, feelings. These are all stories. And I think that by being exposed to more types of art that you wouldn’t normally look at, you’re going to understand story better because that. I went to this exhibition yesterday, and it was about it’s actually about story and time. And it was a wide range of everything, from film to traditional Hispanic arts to just everything. But it was about, it was a really good lesson in, how do people tell story, story of place, story of displacement, story of pain, of loss, you know? So we’re all telling a story, no matter what we paint. And I think in in abstract work, you know, it’s harder because people are not seeing like, Okay, here’s the building, here’s the. Barn here’s like you can it’s, in a way, it’s easier to convey a sense of home or loss or joy or sadness when you have things you know instant tells, when you’re just using color and shapes to tell a story, you have to really evoke a mood to tell the story, and that can be more challenging as an abstract artist. So there’s one painting behind me on this side, and that’s actually an image I made of using oil and water that I photographed shooting down through the oil and water to a gold leaf panel that I had created before. So I made that imagery and then trans put it into it’s embedded in Plexiglas, which is then embedded into a long wooden panel that I created a lot of texture and multiple layers. So for me, layers are telling a story. There’s layers, little, tiny things that you really have to get up close and see, you know, almost with a microscope. But that is my story. And somebody asked me, they said, Well, why do you paint on these long, skinny panels? And I really didn’t know, until I stopped and thought about it, and it was like, Oh, these are, like, the slides that I looked at through my dad’s microscope.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:33

I was going to show that it looks like a slide. It does. It does, yeah,

Sandra Duran Wilson: 56:39

and I find that stories. Sometimes I’m painting and I’m just like, in the moment, I’m creating, and I don’t know the story until I look back. And sometimes it might be a year, sometimes I might be more and then I’m going, like, that’s what that is about. So it can be part of us knows what we’re doing, and the other part has to get in on it later on.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:05

So, yeah, yeah, it’s that union shadow side. Yeah, exactly, yep. And you you gotta, yeah, it’s gonna come out, whether you want to or not. It will make itself known

Sandra Duran Wilson: 57:22

absolutely and it’s our job as artists to then pay attention and to see it. So that’s the other piece.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:33

It’s so fascinating. I love it. I love it again. Because I think, you know, it’s that aspect of I think the one thing I really appreciate and love about abstract is the level of surrender that has to happen, that oftentimes, I think realist painters might struggle with. Because, of course, when you’re limited to recreating reality in a specific way, or even even just working from imagination has its limitations. You have to practice surrender and but then return to control, and then back to surrender and return to control in this cyclical sort of way that I think is so much easier to see an abstract than it is to see in realism. So I think we were talking about this earlier. Realism has a way of attracting and I’m also speaking from experience here, perfectionists, who are a little bit neurotic, want things to be exactly how they’re supposed to be, but then when you have that surrender of abstract it can be a little bit scary for people who are perfectionists.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 58:53

You say, you know you have to surrender you want something and realistically to look like what you think it should look like. But here’s the question, ask yourself, well, if I had, you know, if I looked at it through a different filter, through a different lens, or if I only had vision in one eye, or if I couldn’t see, what would it look like? You know, start to put yourself into different positions of like, what is it really supposed to look like? There’s going to be, you know, you it’s a way to trick yourself into letting go of some of that perfectionism. Because, you know, there’s really no perfectionism, man. And you know, as we were talking earlier, the difference between, you know, the photographs, they flatten out a 3d you know, into a two dimensional so there’s tricks of the lenses. And if you’re painting from a photograph, or even if you’re in a museum and you’re painting from something, another painting in front of you, there’s limitations. And I think this is you need to honor those. Limitations, you need to say that, yeah, that’s part of the process. So let me see if I can push it beyond those limitations and just start to let go a little bit

Unknown: 1:00:22

easy. It’s not easy.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:24

Yeah, it isn’t, I think it’s really funny, because even just reaching a high level of technique, right? That’s, I think, when many artists start realizing the importance of that surrender, or they get so tired of that hyper focus on almost like coloring book style, like color in the perfectly made drawing type of situation, I think that’s when the magic starts to happen, because then it’s like, okay, how do I unlearn All of these habits that I’ve built around this excessive focus on technique, and how can I translate those skills into something more full of surrender or freedom, like we’re saying,

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:01:13

painting with just a palette knife,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:15

oh, or a massive Brush? Does

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:01:18

that count? Or your hands, your fingers.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:21

Oh yeah, I already do that, but that’s a good one too. Just don’t use dangerous pigments, you guys, right?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:01:30

No, I always wear gloves, even with acrylics. Oh yeah, but yeah, it’s a change tools. Yeah, that’s a good or try a different medium. Yes, play around in watercolor, if you’re an oil painter, or encaustic, if you’re an acrylic painter, or, you know, just try something new. Exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:55

I think that’s one of those ways to really trick the system and hopefully also the critical voice. Fingers crossed, but yeah, so I wanted to ask you now because I’m also very curious to know, since you’ve had a very fascinating path through all of these different crafts, different jobs, what was it like for you when you became a full time artist?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:02:26

Well, like I said, early on, I was always, I was a artist, you know, but I also had a second job, so when I transitioned to only doing artwork and not doing another job, then it was, it was really scary, because I had been working, you know, like I said, a decade at this facility, and I had Just met my husband, we just got married and bought a house, and was like, boom. Then the company was sold and I lost my job. So I was like, oh, okay, so now, because I was already doing my artwork, I said, Well, I guess I’ll just have to do more art shows. Do you know, do my work more well with within the first year, I made more money doing just my art than I had doing both. So, I mean, I had already, excuse me, and art already been out there. So it wasn’t like I was just starting, but it was a matter of trusting. It was, you know, it was a hell of a lot of work. I mean, it, we’re still, sometimes I work seven days a week. It’s, it’s crazy to be a full time artist. It’s, it’s, I told a friend of mine, I said I fired my old boss because I was working all the time. You know, my videographer, we, we would be, like, cranking out these videos and, and I said to him, I was like, Yeah, I fired that boss. Let’s work a half day. And it’s, you know, it took me many, many years to get to that point of like, okay, well, I don’t have to be constantly working. And so it is. I mean, every, every artist path is going to be completely different. You know, can you go out and be a full time artist? I don’t know. You know, it depends. You know, what’s your How much do you have to spend on, you know, your rent and your food? Where do you live in the world? What are your expectations? Everybody’s different. But to create, to satisfy that creativity within a person, whether you’re a lot of people I get are the ones that at nine years old, they stop drawing, and they’re like, oh, okay, I’m going to go get this job. You know? I’m going to. Go, and then they reach they’re their 50s, they’re in their 60s, and they’re like, I want to go back and draw that plane. I want to go back and find that creative spirit. And those are a lot of the people I work with. And it’s important that you don’t have to make your living as an artist to enjoy your creativity. You just need to create. So everybody’s answer is going to be different. Do I need to pay the bills? If you’re 25 years old and you’re just starting out, you need to pay bills. You might have to work a couple of jobs. You know, it’s unless you’re extremely lucky and that you get great gallery representation, and it happens and but you just really have to be working all the time. You really have to be painting more, getting out, doing shows. Just because you’re in a gallery doesn’t mean you’re going to sell paintings. So for me, my route was to sell directly myself and fortunate to live in a city that people come from all over the world to see art. So I was able to meet people and sell my work and keep them as collectors, and over time, just building that up. So everybody’s route is going to be different. So I guess the first thing you need to say is, how do I take care of myself? And then why do I want to paint? So for some people, they’re like, they never want to show their work. That’s what they’ve told me. Then they sell something, and suddenly it changes. And they’re like, oh. And it because it’s like, oh, you know, you get this immediate response to your work. And so then they want to do it more. And so I just have one of my students who’d been with me in Mexico not long ago, I was doing a retreat down there. And so now it’s like, oh, I need a website. I’m selling my work. And so I was like, Okay, here’s your link. Get your website up and be legit and sell more work. So, you know, and she’s retired from a long career. But yeah, so,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:18

yeah, yeah. I think I love that you mentioned that you know that validation that happens for a lot of artists when they sell a piece, whether it’s the first piece or even in their 100th piece. I think we’re always low key kind of doubting ourselves, like this piece, this piece good, I don’t know could just be realism, the hyper No, no, no. Okay, good.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:07:45

I would say to my husband, say, oh my gosh, am I ever going to sell another painting? And he would just look at me like, Yeah, I think you will, yeah. We all go through that doubting that. Oh no. You know, it’s like, what’s wrong? What’s wrong with the work, what’s wrong with me? And it’s no, we all have that insecurity. But then you sell something, you’re like,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:07

it’s like, Oh, good. I’m not a I’m not a fake. That’s good. I mean, it’s not good, but it’s good to know that we’re in good company.

Unknown: 1:08:20

Yes, absolutely,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:21

yeah, yeah. Because it is, yeah, it’s, I think deep down, I think the part about it that kind kind of is scary, is the vulnerability, you know, it’s the feeling like, Man, I worked so many hours on this, or I put my heart and soul into this piece, and it’s important, you know, and who could ever see it in that light, or who could ever care about it, right? That’s, I think, one of the only other things that really comes to mind is like that. Again, it could just be that hyper critical voice that says, but who cares? You know, like, there are hundreds and 1000s of really beautiful paintings out there that are probably better than yours, right? And I think that’s the hard part that I think a lot of artists, when they’re thinking of selling, I think that’s one of the big things, also, speaking from experience here to overcome, which is that imposter syndrome. You know?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:09:21

Well, it gets back to story. So what is the other part of the story? Is you’re creating this work. You’re, you know, we talked about all the different ways of story. But the story continues when somebody buys that work, or somebody lives with that work, even if you give it away to someone, you know that becomes part of the story, or I have a lot of work that’s in public art collections, and so a lot of people will see those, and that is the to me, that’s the total, the other half of the story. My creating. It is. Is the first half how people interact with it. It’s the other half, and they get to make up their story. They get to say what they see, what they feel. And I step back, my job is done, because I made my story. And if they want to see something different than what I that’s their story. It becomes their story. And I think that is the beauty of, you know, imposter syndrome. I mean, come on, it’s like we’re all imposters in life, and we’re all realist it’s like, I I understand that imposter thing. It’s like, yeah, am I really an artist? And I know people who had a hard time saying that, but it’s like, oh, just don’t be so damn serious. Yes, you’re an artist. You made that. It’s like, get over it. Let’s go on. It’s like, when somebody thinks enough about a piece to take it and say, I really want this and and you’re going, Oh no, but it’s not this. It’s not it’s like, just close your mouth and say, Thank you. That’s the best advice. Don’t say, oh, but this is the No no no. Say thank you, and, oh, I’m so glad you’re getting it and, and that’s the best thing you can do.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:29

Yes, I actually think that that bit where you said, Oh, shut up. To stop taking it seriously, I think I’m going to clip that and just play it for myself the next time I feel like I’m having, like, one of those moments where I’m stuck in my head about it. It’s like, Sandra said, so. Sandra said, so she believes in you.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:11:49

That’s right, I do, I do believe in you. And this imposter syndrome thing is like, Nope, you’re real. I see you. You’re there. You’re no imposter. So there you go. Thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:03

Thank you. And everyone out there, you are, you are an artist. You’re listening.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:12:09

Yes, there’s a little side to that. I remember a student I had a long, long time ago, and we were talking about that. We were talking about calling ourselves artist. And she was, I don’t want to call myself an artist, and I’m like, Really, why is that? And she had taken a painting class at a museum in the city where we were, and she said that the teacher was just so mean and nasty that she never wanted to be like that. I’m like, Well, you know, there’s a lot more artist out there than that one person. So use that person as an example, and you can be a different kind of artist, but, and she was quite talented, you know? And I said, so don’t be afraid to call yourself an artist. Just you get to choose what kind of artist you get to be. So, yeah, be a good one. Be a happy one. Don’t be happy. Have to be happy. Just be go do what motivates you? Go do what. What is it? Follow. Follow that voice. My voice has changed my direction of where I’m going over the years, and I like to say, I change my direction every decade, reinvent yourself. So being happy doesn’t have to be part of it, but being true, I think, is a good part of it. And I think if you’re true, you might find that happiness, or the joy I mean, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:44

I agree. I agree. There comes and it’s, it’s so funny, because it’s, it reminds me a lot of the Stoics, and also aspects of Buddhism, you know, where you can recognize your sadness, but it’s, it’s a part of being alive, right? So sometimes it’s happened to me, and I’m sure it may have happened to you as well. Where, like, when you recognize that through that sadness, you’re participating, or through that suffering of some sort, you’re participating in the human condition, right? The experience of being human. It’s almost a strange kind of happiness that happens through that

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:14:24

well, it’s part of that letting go, that surrender, beautiful,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:32

oh, yeah. And then back to the more mundane aspects, unless you want to mention something more.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:14:39

Stoicism is very good philosophy for see or Buddhism. And you know, you just, you see something, you name it, you’re you let go of the fear of it, and you just move on. It’s like, Yeah, I’m feeling sad today. Okay, well, still gotta go do the dishes or go grocery shopping and. You know, just keep moving, and eventually that mood will change.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:05

Yeah, yeah. And I think I also read somewhere, I know this is a bit of a side note, but it might help someone out there who’s an artist, who’s very anxious or sad, but it actually only takes 90 seconds to feel an emotion. Then the more you try to avoid it, the more it prolongs it, actually. So, like you said, you know, you name it, you recognize it, you let yourself feel it,

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:15:33

and then and smile smile, because smiling will change your mood or laugh.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:40

Yeah, yeah, look up some funny videos. That’s what I like to do sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yes, um, but yeah. Back to the more mundane, uh, aspects of the business side of being an artist. Actually, it’s not as it’s not that mundane. I think it can be very exciting, but do you mind telling us how it is that you developed that collector base for yourself? What were some of the the marketing aspects that you did that really helped put your work out there?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:16:18

Well, I think the the most, the biggest way. Was, like I said, I did outdoor art shows every weekend, six months out of the year, I’d be up at three or four o’clock in the morning and all kinds of weather. Hell of a way to make a living. But I did it for quite a few years, and I met a lot of different people. I also had my work in galleries. I would submit to some exhibitions, juried exhibitions, to get my work in. And I just in teaching, writing and teaching opened up to a lot more people. So a lot of my students became collectors, or collectors became students, which I really loved. I had some really big collectors, and one of the women, she started to take a course with me, and now she’s doing beautiful work of her own. So it’s relationship is what? How you build a collector base, whether that relationship is online, whether it’s in person, whether it’s with your gallerist. Usually a gallery will not share collector information, because that’s their business. But if you have a good relationship with your gallerist, they open up opportunities for me, for you to, you know, have exhibitions to meet and greet. One gallery I was in would let me come in and paint, you know, and so I’d be in this in the gallery painting, and I would meet a lot of people, and they see what you’re doing. And they’re like, Oh, I love that. And they buy stuff. So it’s, it’s, I guess the thing I said to myself early on when I had to say, Okay, I’m a full time artist now, is say yes to opportunities. And I said yes to a lot, lot of opportunities that were like, well, that was a dumb one. But, you know, you just, you just say yes, you have to kind of keep moving. And it’s a bit different world right now. People are not, you know, a lot of galleries, especially since covid have closed. A lot of major galleries I was in don’t exist anymore. People are getting older. The gallery owners are retiring, and younger people are buying more online. So I’m, you know, I still sell things online more so to people that are ready by my work. But here’s the thing you’re going to sell when you first start out, you’re going to sell to your friends and your family. That’s going to that’s who’s going to buy your work, and that’s for everybody, you know. We’ve all been there. Then you start to sell to people you don’t know. And that’s really the big Whoopty, Whoo, yeah, you’re going to go out and celebrate, and then you’re going to start to get into more shows or galleries, or you’re going to meet more people, and maybe they’re going to or maybe they’re going to buy a small piece from you online, and then once they see the quality of it, then they’re more apt to buy something larger. I mix experimented with doing some of the big art venues. My gallery’s taken my work to like, you know, Art Miami and New York and San Diego, the big art fairs. And I don’t know it’s they didn’t do a lot, but everybody’s got an amp. Opinion of how to sell. And I don’t know it’s like you just, you keep trying different things, you find something that works for you. And if you’re on social media, and I do a lot on social media, but it’s it’s not as strong at conveying my story every day on social media, and I just decided that I’m tired of feeding that lion every day, that my joy in creating is more important than really creating content every single day. So I’ve decided not to do that so much. And do I sell as much work? I don’t know, but you’ve got to do what’s going to keep you sane, what’s going to keep you healthy, what’s going to keep you happy. And if you really don’t like doing something, you’ve got two choices. You either outsource it or you don’t do it. So that’s kind of my motto. It’s like there are things that I have other you know, I’ve learned how to do all my own video editing, and I really had a good time with it, but I am not very fast at it, so I hire a videographer who’s very good at it, and then I can spend more of my time developing the painting. The same with other, you know, business things that if you can’t afford to pay somebody trade, I’ve gotten my work in a lot of places, my eye doctor, my doctor, people, you know your gym and you know waiting rooms, get your work out there, get it the more you can have it seen, the better.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:54

Yes, absolutely. I’ve also spoken to artists who have their work in restaurants as well. That’s helped them also sell work. Yeah, it is. The only thing

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:22:05

with restaurants is your work comes back smelling like the restaurant,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:22:10

unless someone buys it. Then, then, you know what? If the food was good, that’s kind of a good memory. Yeah, that’s true, yeah. Oh, man. So Sandra, do you have any upcoming shows, exhibitions, workshops, anything fun that you would like to promote?

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:22:29

Well, I do have my final in person teaching event. It’s going to be in Ireland this summer, and it’s in an art school in County Mayo in western Ireland. And I think I still have a couple of places left in the in the workshop. I don’t think it’s quite sold out yet, so it’s going to be a lot of fun. I’ve taught there before, and it’s just an absolutely beautiful place, part of the country. And so I, you know, if you’re interested in that, it’s on the website. I have some, as I said earlier, I’m kind of changing directions, and I’m working on an installation project of in New Mexico. We’ve a few years ago, we had a very large forest fire that destroyed it was the largest in the history of the state. And I’ve connected with some people who have lost their home, a good portion of their forest. And we’re doing a project where we’re creating painted canvases, and we’re wrapping the burned tree in these colorful canvases. We’re doing video and photography installations of it. And I started this project a few years ago in art residency in southern Italy, and then I continued it in a residency in France by wrapping these very large chestnut trees in this forest in eastern France. And it gave, I mean, that was such a lush, beautiful place. And it when I got home, and I was like, Okay, this is we don’t have those big kind of trees here. And then I started looking at the burn scars, and I was like, What can I do to bring awareness of the climate change and the effects of climate change into people’s awareness without it being horrific or feeling like I’m beating them over the head with information? And so I got this idea of creating an art and it’s evolving. It’s it’s still developing. I’m going to get the people whose land we’re working on. I’m going to get them to my studio to also paint some of the canvases and do some of these installations, and then we will take the project into a gallery setting or museum setting. So. It’s kind of a long term project, but it’s my passion project right now, so I’ll be, I’ll be posting more about it on social media as it goes along. And so those are the things that I have

Laura Arango Baier: 1:25:14

exciting, yes, and then do you mind telling us what your website and social media are, and YouTube channel for that matter.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:25:22

Well, my, my website is Sandra Duran Wilson and my name and this, I think, for my business, Facebook, it’s Sandra Duran Wilson artist, and it’s all, it’s all under my name, branding is, and that’s another thing in marketing, is keep your branding under your name. Some people will come up with different, you know, names for their business, but if you keep your your your branding for your social media and your website under your name, then it’s a great way for people to remember who you are and to find you again. So and the YouTube channel is also under Sandra. Duran Wilson, awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:09

Well, thank you so much, Sandra. It was an absolute joy to talk art inspiration. Wonderful. Yes, yes.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:26:18

I know we kind of roamed around a few places, but I, that’s how I like to create too.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:25

Yes, it’s just, you know, going with the flow, intuition, just, you know, yeah, it’s following that, that voice, almost of, oh, this reminds me of this. And then it’s a, it’s a really great dialog. I really enjoyed it.

Sandra Duran Wilson: 1:26:40

I enjoyed it too. Our conversation. Thank you for having me, of course, and

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:45

thank you for being here. You’re welcome. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For our first episode of the year, we sat down with Romona Youngquist, an artist who describes herself as a lifelong “country girl” and homebody whose deepest desire has always been to paint the rural surroundings she loves, often within a 20-mile radius of her home. She recalls recognizing her calling as an artist as early as age four or five, and later feeling that oil paint was her true medium after experimenting with watercolor and acrylics in college. She also tells us about how throughout her life she held a series of unconventional jobs, but always returned to nostalgic rural landscapes, eventually realizing she could not keep a “normal” job and had to make art her livelihood. Romona explains that her paintings are driven by intuition, memory, and emotion rather than strict realism: she chases a very specific feeling in the light and design of a scene, mixing plein air sketches, photos, and childhood memories of Oklahoma’s skies and trees. She also talks about the tension between nostalgia and change, seeing herself partly as a visual historian preserving vanishing farmsteads, gardens, and rural spaces, and notes how her work has evolved toward more layering and a desire for greater simplification and abstraction. Romona offers advice to aspiring artists; she stresses building a large, solid body of work, considering financial stability, and accepting that painting is an ongoing, often difficult process where doubt never fully disappears, but commitment to one’s vision is essential. Finally, Romona tells us about her upcoming shows!

Romona’s FASO site:
romonayoungquist.com

Romona’s Instagram:
instagram.com/rlyoungquist/

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Transcript:

Romona Youngquist: 0:00

If that’s what you really love to do, if this is what you want to do, you just make it. You just do it. You just force yourself. And you just get in a place where, and like I said, have a lot of paintings before you actually make the jump and solid, good paintings. And just if that’s what you want to do, you just make it work.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:24

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world. In order to hear their advice and insights. For our first episode of the year, we sat down with Ramona Youngquist, an artist who describes herself as a lifelong Country Girl and homebody whose deepest desire has always been to paint the rural surroundings she loves, often within a 20 mile radius of her home. She recalls recognizing her calling as an artist as early as age four or five, and later feeling that oil paint was her true medium. After experimenting with watercolor and acrylics in college, she also tells us about how throughout her life she held a series of unconventional jobs, but always returned to nostalgic rural landscapes, eventually realizing she could not keep a normal job and had to make art her livelihood. Ramona explains that her paintings are driven by intuition, memory and emotion, rather than strict realism. She chases a very specific feeling in the light and design of a scene mixing plein air, sketches, photos and childhood memories of Oklahoma’s skies and trees. She also talks about the tension between nostalgia and change, seeing herself partly as a visual historian preserving vanishing farmsteads, gardens and rural spaces, and notes how her work has evolved towards more layering and a desire for greater simplification and abstraction. Ramana offers advice to aspiring artists. She stresses building a large, solid body of work, considering financial stability and accepting a painting is an ongoing, often difficult process, where doubt never fully disappears, but commitment to one’s vision is essential. Finally, Ramona tells us about her upcoming shows. Welcome Ramona to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Romona Youngquist: 2:21

Good. How about you?

Laura Arango Baier: 2:24

I’m doing great. I am so excited to talk to you, because you and I could literally talk for hours and hours and hours. And of course, I have invited you because your work is so beautiful, it is so nostalgic. It really pulls you into that, if anyone has you know, grown up at a farm or grown up in a rural area, you can really feel like you’re sitting in the grass and you’re observing this beautiful landscape that you wish you could stay in forever. And I think that’s one of the main things that really pulled me to your work. So I’m so excited to have you for that reason.

Romona Youngquist: 2:59

Oh, thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:03

But before we talk about more of your beautiful work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Romona Youngquist: 3:10

Well, I I’m just a country girl. Actually, I feel like I just grew up kind of a Feral Kid and and all by all I have really ever wanted to do is paint my surroundings and and and relay what I see to other people that used To I used to get mad because people wouldn’t pay attention to what I’m looking at, and that’s part of the reason why I paint so yeah, and, and I’m very much a stay home. I used to say I have a mild case of agoraphobia, but my neighbor goes, I had to look that word up. And isn’t that actually what we used to call home bodies? I go, oh yeah, that’s right, I forgot about that. So, yeah, so where were we going with that?

Laura Arango Baier: 4:18

Oh, man, well, I mean, it makes sense to be a home body when home is a beautiful place that you, you know, want to just look at all day. I mean, I’m also a bit of a home body. And I think there’s also a natural inclination as an artist, kind of like how you were saying, where it’s almost like the way that we perceive the world sometimes can be so specific, like, Oh, don’t you see the light falling on that the tip of that tree? Or, don’t you see just the way that the, I don’t know, the ground is glittering with the snow? You know, all of these very specific things that I can definitely see that you capture in your work. So I understand the frustration of your child. Old self being like, but don’t you see?

Romona Youngquist: 5:02

Yeah, I couldn’t share I had nobody to share that with. It seemed like I felt very lonely in my little bubble of prettiness in my head. And yeah, and so, speaking of, you know, being a home body, I actually like to paint very close to home too. I’d say 20 miles radius. But Russell Chatham was very into that too. He painted, and he’s, he’s one of the first landscape painters that I go, you know, I just, I, I studied, you know, I just loved his work. And I have a story too, maybe later on, when I finally got to meet him. It was so funny. But, um, but anyway, I, I paint very local and and it’s so cute now, because around town, people will go, I just saw Ramona painting when I was going down the road. So it was like, Oh, my God, this is working. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 6:14

yeah, that’s so sweet. Because, you know, it’s like, how it was saying your work has this way of striking, you know, like, just like the way that you position, for example, like the viewer, right? It really pulls you into the image. It’s almost like you’re down low in the grass, which is why I said it that way. And it really reminded me of my own childhood, because I grew part time at, like, my grandparents farm. And it was one of my favorite things to, you know, see the sunlight on the side of the house, and you’re sitting away from it, and you’re, you know, looking at little grasshoppers hopping around, or hearing the birds or seeing the breeze, you know, it’s, it’s really nice to hear, like, from other people, like, Oh, I saw Ramona painting, right? And it’s like, you could see it in real life, and you can see the actual painting too, like what you’re trying to capture, and I think that’s really beautiful. And besides that, though, I’m also really curious to know, since it seems like you’ve had this tendency since you were young, when would you say that you began to follow the path of the artist?

Romona Youngquist: 7:19

Well, I mean this, a lot of people know my this story. I like to tell it because it’s true and but I knew, and I was like, four and five, I think it was, I was at a preschool type set, or not, a kind of a, yeah, preschool type setting. And the teacher had us drawing. And so I drew this rooster, and she came up to me, which I’m sure she did every single kid, and but she held up my rooster, and she goes, Look at this rooster. Is just amazing what she did. And I go, she goes, she’s an artist. I go, Oh, I’m an artist. And it’s like, because I remember the feeling when I was also doing the drawing, how much I loved it. I was so happy and so calm and and, but that was the first person that really recognized Well, I thought maybe she did, but, like I said, she did everybody else, I’m sure. But from then on, it’s like, deep down, I knew that’s what it was that I wanted to be, yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:36

I think I have heard a lot of artists have their own, like, moments kind of that is usually in childhood, where they will say something similar. It’s like, what was this moment in that moment? But I love that yours is a rooster.

Romona Youngquist: 8:52

And guess what? I still have my chickens that I love. Oh, my chicken cup.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:00

Cup. Yeah, no, it’s, um, I think that makes a lot of sense too. And it makes sense with, like, the type of, sort of homey, rustic feeling that you get from your work. So I think that’s really wonderful. And the fact that, you know, you’re so young, and then that also makes me wonder, you know, because you’ve had quite a bit of an interesting timeline in your life with becoming an artist and all you know the different things you’ve done. When would you say that you started really painting work for yourself? Or do you find that you were always as even as you know, child, teenager, young, adult adulthood, like, were you always painting, or was it something that you kind of stopped and then, you know, went back into?

Romona Youngquist: 9:47

Well, I really, I drew all the time, you know, and you hear that a lot about artists. I didn’t really grow up having material. Else. So I use my pencil until I got, I mean, in high school, we have the art class, which I of course, is my favorite class. I was always in there and and, you know, our our art teacher did, he was pretty good with the basics. And so fixing, and so I was introduced to that. And, you know, I didn’t really know I hadn’t been to museums, and I hadn’t really seen real art until I got I went to college to escape my little town, so I shouldn’t have been college material, but I went and took some art classes and stuff, and then I really got to use materials in painting, and it wasn’t, and I was doing watercolor and acrylics, and those were okay, but It’s like, I felt there was this thing I needed to do, but none of that was getting I wasn’t getting there until I was introduced to oils. And I was like, Oh my god. It was life changing. It was like, This is my soul thing. I love it so much. And so I’ve been doing that ever since. I don’t know where we going with that, either.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:27

Well, just, you know, if you kept painting or, you know, drawing, yeah,

Romona Youngquist: 11:31

oh, yeah. So, so in, really, in my 20s, mid 20s, I was in this little gallery up in Alaska, and I was doing my, not my Alaska, not Alaska scenes. I was doing, you know, my nostalgic stuff that I love to do. Oh, my God, those were popular. And it was like, this is but this is what, just what I want to do. This is what I love to do. And so I just kept doing that. And that’s when it really I go, Okay, I can’t really have a normal job because I I just can’t hold down a job. I would get fired from anything because I’m just not a good employee. So I go, I have to figure out how to make this work. There’s no two ways around it. So I just worked my butt off, and I still, do, you know, and just made it work.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:30

Yeah, oh, man, I am so curious to know about these jobs, if you don’t mind telling us, you know, just like a few of those jobs that you think were, I guess, like the funniest or strangest ones that you tried out while you were making things work.

Romona Youngquist: 12:51

Well, when I was going to college, and that was another thing I had to make it work. I got a job. There was a new country bar, and I got a job as their boot shine girl. This was a whole new thing, and so I had to learn how to shine shoes. I had to go. This was Fresno, California, and so I went downtown and found this shoe shiner, and kind of shadowed him for a while. And I even learned how to crack, you know, everything so I would shine boots. And then went up in Juneau, up in Alaska, I go, I hate jobs. I hate real jobs. And so I decided I was going to have a vending cart. So I had, I had lived in Philadelphia a little bit too. And so I, I made Philly cheesesteaks in general Alaska. And there’s some other weird jobs too. I’ve had so many weird jobs, but things that aren’t normal,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:12

yes, yeah. And I think that’s, you know, that’s so lines up with, I think a lot of like, just like the type of mentality we have as artists, right? We’re not looking for like, we look for something that’s interesting and strange, usually, you know, like, it’s like, Huh, that’s that looks kind of fun. I kind of want to try that, because I can relate to that with the types of jobs that I’ve had as well, this being one of those jobs where it’s like, oh, this is fun. I get to talk to really cool artists, yeah, and it’s a bit unconventional, because it’s not something you hear about very often, but I think that lines up so well with your character. Just yeah, it was a shoe shiner. Wow. Oh, did that help with your painting skills?

Romona Youngquist: 15:07

I made good money.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:09

I yeah, when people still use shoe shiners? I don’t know if that’s

Romona Youngquist: 15:15

but this is boot shining. Oh, that’s in a country bar.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:19

Oh, no. Skippy little outfit, yeah, oh, okay, wow. There you go,

Romona Youngquist: 15:27

rhinestones and all that stuff, and then actually doing a really good job shining shoes or boots.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:35

Yes, oh, man. So that also leads me to my next question, because it’s very clear that, obviously these jobs were really just a means to an end, right? When did you realize, okay, this is my calling. Being an artist is my calling. When was that moment for you,

Romona Youngquist: 15:57

well, to realize that it was my calling. Was probably in my 20s. That’s when, I mean, I, I didn’t want to do a real job. I go this and and it’s, it’s most, I wouldn’t say, self taught. I didn’t go to art school. I I basically learned the skills by when I got older, and I figured out, oh my God, all these wonderful painters out there. And I used to take the Richard Schmidt landscape book, this was in the My early 20s, from the library. Oh my god, I checked that book out so many times, I mean, and then I actually didn’t give, didn’t put it back in the library one time, and my but my friend took it. So it’s missing. I’m sorry. Yeah, it’s missing. And, but I don’t have it and, but I paid for that. I paid for the book, because anyway, and so, where was I going with that one? Oh, self taught calling. Oh yes, I mean, and so I just figured, I go, this is a calling. This wasn’t anything else. I mean, intuitively I knew from my when I was little, this is what I want. This is why is met. I meant to be. There’s nothing else except for maybe baking. But, I mean, anybody can bake, but this is what I this is what I’m supposed to be doing. I I’ve always known that and and I never really deviated from that idea. And I just felt like there was something and so much of what I do is intuitive. I really don’t know what the hell I’m doing half the time, more than half the time, and people, that’s why I can’t I would never teach. How can I teach other people to do what I have no idea what I’m doing, right? And yeah, so I believe it’s a calling, and I and I love that. You know, it’s comforting to know that it’s something in me. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:40

yeah, yeah, no, totally. And I think I love that you mentioned the intuitive part, because I think it’s one of those things that isn’t mentioned very much, actually, now that I think about it, when it comes to being an artist or a painter, even though it’s almost too obvious, maybe it’s so obvious, it’s not mentioned just having that intuition of about it. And I’ve heard other artists similar to you also mentioned, like, Oh, I just, you know, move around, for example, with composition, I just move stuff around until it feels right, right? And I think that’s like, yeah, that’s intuition telling you, like, this is how things are going to look the best. Do you find that in your process that’s like one of the things that you do, or what’s, what’s your artistic process? Like when you find, you know, a scene that you really want to paint

Romona Youngquist: 19:33

that’s interesting? You asked that because I was just thinking about that. It’s a feeling, and I probably everybody has it. I guess I see a scene I go by, you know, hundreds of times. And of course, it’s the light that hits it, but it’s a feeling that I get kind of it. It’s just such a strong feeling. It’s like that, I’ve got, I’ve got that is what I’m looking for. I mean, I have to put that down and then it in a painting, because it’s just making me feel like it needs to be done and and so I try to keep that feeling, and I think the big part is design, and that’s why I sometimes I don’t even feel like I’m a real artist, because I just it’s like, it’s a design and how I feel, and it’s in my head, and I don’t know how I’m going to do it, and there’s a lot of mistakes and I and I do a lot of different crazy things To get that feeling on, on the canvas. And sometimes these big paintings, that’s why I like to do the big pings, because I you get more feeling from them, and you feel like that. I want people to feel what that feeling is when I see that scene. I don’t know how to explain it otherwise.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:21

Yeah, no, I think that makes perfect sense, because there’s, I can, I can relate to that, and maybe you can, you might relate to what I’m about to say, which is like, you know, it’s kind of like when you enter a room and the light is coming in in a particular way, in a particular season, and then if you imagine that the room were in a different direction, the feeling is totally different. Oh, yeah. So I think, I think I can definitely relate to that if that’s the case. But yeah, do you find that the image that really captures you. Do you think? Or do you find that there’s a story attached to it, that you create in your in your mind? Or is it just wordless,

Romona Youngquist: 22:12

totally, it’s a story of and it mostly comes back to that four and five, again, four or five, growing up in Oklahoma and this rural, just little town, I mean, dirt roads and stuff and and I would just stand in the road and and watch the trees in The Sky against the trees, and it’s like, I that’s what it is to me. It’s just that that place or that garden, it’s like, oh, walking through that garden kind of like what you said, you know, sitting in the grass and and observing, because I don’t think a lot of people do that anymore, but walking through, in my eyes, this beautiful place, and I just want to hold it in time, you know, a place that used to be, but maybe isn’t there anymore. There’s all kinds of stories that that old lady made this garden, she and it’s still, some of the plants are still there, but they’re not doing well, but they’re still there, hanging on to what you know, she had, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:38

yeah, it also reminds me a bit of like the as you as you know, as time goes on and you move to a new place, or you leave a place, and you realize that, kind of like you said, that place no longer exists. So even if or it still exists, but even if you go back, it’s no longer how it used to be. And it feels like some distant sort of location that is no longer reachable. And it’s kind of, I think that’s maybe also why your work feels nostalgic. It’s that feeling of like not being able to return to this physical location any longer. So it’s more of a place to live, in your mind or in your heart during your memories that you can close your eyes and you’re there again, but you wish you were physically there again. Yeah, yeah.

Romona Youngquist: 24:28

You know. What’s funny about that is, I was on Google Earth, and I go, I wonder what it looks like. Does it look the same? And the place was, we’re very depressed in this little Oklahoma town. And it was the same I walked with the camera. I went through all the you know, where I stood, and some of the little meadow. Those are the little in the woods with my dog. I I walked through those places, and guess what? The trees were still there, and the the my house, but it was much smaller, but everything was really overgrown, but it was still what I was seeing. So it was very cool.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:23

Yeah, yeah, at least that’s really nice, because the place that I wish I could go back to, which is my grandparents farm, it got sold off a while ago, and they like tore down all the trees, all my grandma’s plants. So we did go back, and it was really sad, because the place that I remembered, of course, was no longer really there, even though the place was still technically there. So that, I think that’s one of those difficult things to reconcile, but you just mentioned something really interesting. Do you find that, do you paint mostly from memory, or do you paint on location? Or is it a bit of a blend of both?

Romona Youngquist: 26:07

It’s it’s a blend, for sure, but it seems like a lot of the skies and the trees are still from what I used to see as a kid, and you can see that in my stormy, some of my stormy scenes, it’s, it’s all of what I saw, but I also use them. You know, I, I used to paint outside a lot more, and that’s actually one of my teacher. The best teacher was Mother Nature. I swear she’s hard, she’s really hard, but that was how I really learned. But, yeah, that’s it’s definitely a mixture.

Laura Arango Baier: 26:52

So you go, like, on location and like, if you painted from life, right? You would probably take like, little painting notes, or do you take mostly pictures. Do what’s, what’s that intuitive process? Like for you,

Romona Youngquist: 27:05

um, I like to paint little, little sketches. Just for me, I do. They’re, they’re mostly inflammation. Like my planner, work is nothing that I strive to actually finish. I’ve got so many, but I reuse them. I go through and I say, okay, yeah, that’s what that looked like, plus photographs, drawings, memory, and so I use it all, whatever gets me a painting. It’s all game,

Laura Arango Baier: 27:47

yes, and gets you that feeling, you know, that vibe, again, of that story, yeah, that’s awesome. And then when, when did you realize, like, Okay, this is I’m gonna quit all my really crazy, funky jobs, and I’m just gonna focus on painting. What was that moment like for you?

Romona Youngquist: 28:11

The best, but the scare. It was very scary, and, you know, but it was also a transition too, because it seemed the more I sold, the less I thought about, you know, having to do something else. And so then I also, you know, having a fat when the kid, you know, I had, we had the kids and, and I don’t know that was that was difficult to do that and try to make money. But I just kept I did. I just, that’s all I did. I mean, that’s all I do. So I just made it a point is this is I have to do it. I have to make it work. And a lot of, especially female painters, I think, find that, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:12

yeah, balancing, yeah, balancing, raising kids and painting, yeah, I can imagine.

Romona Youngquist: 29:20

But it seems like yeah they It’s funny though, when you when you have little kids and you’re painting, you get really smart with your time. Seems like when I’m old, now I’m older, and now I can feel fart around. It’s like, I gotta get serious. Oh, I I can still do that later. But when you have little kids, you know it’s like, Nope, they’re napping. Gotta do it.

Laura Arango Baier: 29:49

Yes, yeah. And you can’t procrastinate anymore, because you got to make the most of the time that you’ve got. Yeah. Yeah, I have a very small niece, and that’s how it feels. Whenever I was helping take care of her, I always felt like, Okay, I’m going to do as much as I can while she’s sleeping. Yeah, yeah.

Romona Youngquist: 30:16

And I had twins,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:18

oh, goodness gracious, yeah,

Romona Youngquist: 30:19

a three year old, and then the twins were born. Holy mackerel. I don’t even know how I survived that. And it kept, yeah, some of my best work, though, was those times it’s really weird.

Laura Arango Baier: 30:34

That’s interesting. I wonder if it also has to do with because there’s always a bit of a balance between time and effort, right. Like, if, like, I don’t know if this has happened to you, where, if you have too much time allowed to do something, it’s almost easier to dilly dally, but then when you you have to focus on getting that one thing right. Kind of like, how a lot of plein air painters improve so so fast is also because of that time constraint. Yes, yes. I find that it, yeah, it makes sense that maybe you feel like that was, you know, really, really good work as well, because you had no choice,

Romona Youngquist: 31:14

no and it was fresh. It was down. It’s fresh and it now, it’s like, I can kill a painting just by overdoing it, and I didn’t overdo it at then it was like, very innocent stuff. Seem like, now it’s now my paintings are jaded. Overwork them.

Laura Arango Baier: 31:40

Oh no, but your work is so gorgeous. It’s still so gorgeous. But yeah, I think definitely the skill that you must have built with that having to really focus and get it done, get it done, get it done, that must have definitely also helped develop your work. How you do it now as well, you know?

Romona Youngquist: 32:00

Yeah, I think so. But now it is where the work is. It’s like it’s to a different level where there’s so many layers that, so many layers that, that that wasn’t it wasn’t there before.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:24

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Romona Youngquist: 35:55

thinking of that, that’s very interesting, too, lonely trees and when I found that when when I was more kind of down and depressed, my paintings got really bright, and when I when I was in a really good place, I did A lot of tonal work so people that knew me, when they saw the bright ones, they go, Oh no, what’s wrong?

Laura Arango Baier: 36:29

So you Okay? Ramona, what happened that is so interesting.

Romona Youngquist: 36:38

I was trying to make my make my happy place on campus. Yeah, anyway, so, yeah, that brought, yeah, you’re, by the way, your work is just so beautiful. Oh, I appreciate so soulful, and you’re all of that. Oh, there’s so much emotion, so much

Laura Arango Baier: 37:01

emotion in your work. Thank you. I hope I can continue to do that. I’m still very much in the early days, so I don’t even to me. It’s like, I don’t even have a portfolio. What are you

Romona Youngquist: 37:14

talking about? Oh my you’ve got it. I mean, I’m so jealous of your youth and your skill already. It’s like, Oh, my God, oh,

Laura Arango Baier: 37:24

well, thank you very much. Oh, man. But to get back to your gorgeous work, because I think your work definitely speaks to a very deep level of that nostalgia. When did you figure out for yourself that this specific theme is what you wanted to paint, you know, like the house with the grass and the trees and like the very rustic, beautiful landscapes, when did you was that always something that, oh, this is what I want to do? Or did you try out different other different genres before it’s

Romona Youngquist: 38:03

that’s the only thing I wanted to do. I had I admire people that do, you know, portraits and the figure, and that is the only thing I wanted to do is, I, you know, I don’t even want to do street scenes. I just love the rural landscape. And basically, without people, it’s like I’m anti social. Why would I want them in me on my paintings? No, I just love nature so much, and what I see around me, yeah, that’s I’ve I’ve always known that.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:47

Yeah, that’s so interesting, because that kind of reminds me what you mentioned earlier about feeling alone in your your way of seeing things and like seeing a very specific beauty that maybe the people around you didn’t capture. And I find that that’s, if anything, that is what it feels like, you know, by you saying, Oh, I don’t paint people in my words, like, yeah, I understand that. You know, maybe you still feel that sort of loneliness in your vision, you know, in the way that you perceive the world, because you find that other people don’t understand it, or maybe didn’t when you were a kid, you know, right?

Romona Youngquist: 39:27

Yeah, and still to this day, maybe you know, actually, I think you know people need to see to experience the nature that they do, they’re not doing it. It’s like so it makes me sad, and I don’t, I don’t want it to go away. I don’t want the those grandma gardens to go away. I don’t, you know, the farms and they’re. They are. It’s so sad. I don’t know how many times I go by a scene and just like, it makes me sad about your your grand grandparents farm. It’s gone. It was there, and, you know, just last week, and it’s gone. It’s like, I’m just so thankful that I got it down. You know, on a painting, it’s part of it. Being a historian, in a way, artists are historians,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:33

yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, they were the original captures of history as well, until the camera, of course, rolled along. But yeah, totally. And also, I think, in many senses, right? Because there are the different types of painting that I like to refer to, because there’s like the fully expressive type where everything comes from, you know, the artist’s mind. And then, of course, there’s like the straight up, like Audubon Society, like we were just painting this, this very biographical, in this very biographical way, which, again, nothing wrong with the spectrum, right? There’s room for everyone. And then, of course, like there’s artists like you who are capturing, of course, this location, but you’re also capturing your story of it, right? Your own perception of it without being, you know, like the overly Audubon or the leaning completely towards expression only. It’s very much like this is how I perceive this beauty, beauty in this one place, in the way that I remember it, right?

Romona Youngquist: 41:39

Yeah, right. But the funny thing is, though I do, I’ve known this for about five years or more. I don’t know something like that, that there’s a transition happening where I want them more simplified. It’s just like I’m not getting it. It’s like, I don’t know how to explain it, but almost more of a abstract feel to it, more feeling than anything. Yeah, I just want to capture is some kind of a challenge that I’m trying to do with myself, and I don’t even know what it is, which is basically how I’ve been going by the seat of my pants the whole dang time.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:26

Oh, man, I love that. But I was about to say, like, well, if you don’t know how you’re or what you’re doing, then you’re on the right track. Ramona, throw you back to that. Yes, you’re on the right track.

Romona Youngquist: 42:40

I am on the right track, whatever that might be. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:44

And you know what? I’m noticing more and more, at least for me with my own work, that the harder it is to figure it out, the more important it is to do it. You know the Oh, it’s like, it’s almost like having a pebble in your shoe where, like, you just can’t ignore it, like it’s something that like, the more difficult and the less you understand it, the more I feel like, the more obsessively so I become with trying to figure figure it out, try to do it anyway. And it’s I think also that the more you do work, kind of like how you mentioned, like, very abstract, very mental, like, from memory, type of work, I think that’s the hardest work. Oh, it is so hard and I and that’s one of the reasons why it’s so important to do it right.

Romona Youngquist: 43:41

But, yeah, but it’s so hard to figure out when you don’t know what it is, it is. It’s just like, it’s so there’s so many, so many ruined paintings I’ve been ruining so many. That’s why it’s taken me so long. Everybody so mad at me. I get to the point where they’re they’re really pretty, like a god dang, it’s too damn pretty, and I just f it up. But sometimes they’re just like, oh, okay, I like that. Now. I like it. And then I start anyway. It’s such a process. It’s so interesting.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:32

It is, yeah, yeah, because I find that. I mean, when you paint from, strictly from reality, right, strictly from life. It’s very different from painting, in that mixed sort of way, where it’s reality slash memory, which I feel like it’s, you know, since it’s what you do like you would definitely understand how you know what I was trying. To describe about the difficulty of it, you know, to try to make it work, because, like you’re saying, there’s so many mistakes that happen, and it’s so experimental in a lot of ways, because you got to put it in a way that makes sense. And it’s almost like trying to paint a scene from a dream where it makes sense in your dream, we’re like, yeah, totally. That guy could totally have seven fingers, and then you try to recreate it on a on a canvas, and it’s so hard because it doesn’t actually make sense in the Dream Vision.

Romona Youngquist: 45:33

Yeah, that’s, that’s how I always have to look at the painting, is, does it make sense to somebody viewing this? Does this make sense? And so, yeah, so that’s a good point. Doesn’t have to make sense exactly,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:55

if it’s pretty and if it gets the point across, that’s also what really matters. Because in the end. I mean, I’ve, I’ve seen so many paintings that like, from a distance, they look exactly as as they’re supposed to, but if you really get close to it, the brushstrokes are so abstract. It’s, it’s literally splotches sometimes, or just loves that, yes, just layers interesting.

Romona Youngquist: 46:19

That’s what I I want, not just pretty. I want it to be interesting to see up close what is going on in there, what kind of angst was coming through that, you know is, you know, that’s the fun part to me. And then when you get back, it’s like, oh, it’s making sense. So you can have it all.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:45

Yes, yeah. It’s that dance between, like, the literal description of something, and then the abstract description of something, you know,

Romona Youngquist: 46:56

and then it’s like, how when do you know it’s finished when you’re in the process of all of this stuff. How do you know to finish it? Yeah, I’ve got, like, paintings here for, I mean, going on two years, and it’s like, I don’t know.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:19

I think that’s probably the million dollar question. Besides, how do I price my work is, how do I know it’s done

Romona Youngquist: 47:29

exactly? Yes, it’s like, and most of the time it’s like, well, you took, you take pictures of it. It’s like, well, it should have been done like, in the middle, yeah, now I screwed it up. I, you know, I look back, it’s like, in the middle. It was great. Couldn’t show left it, but I had to learn something again.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:56

Yeah, and I think, in a sense, it also gives me peace of mind that you mentioned that, because, yeah, because it goes to show that you don’t really graduate from that ever. So it’s fine to just accept, like, you know what? It’s part of the process that it’s, you know, sometimes the painting will change, and I’ll be maybe a little disappointed with how it evolves. Because if there’s one thing that I think many artists hope for as they grow, as you know, in their career, or even as an artist in general, is that you know that first of all, that that doubt goes away. It never does. Apparently, I interviewed so many artists, they all tell me the same thing, no, those voices don’t go away and then, but it does give me peace of mind that, like, not, you know, I can’t expect every painting to eventually get really, really, really good or, I mean, if anything, I might get better at preventing a painting from, you know, going through so much of, like, an up and down, but it’s inevitable, you know, like it’s gonna have up and down, and you the quicker people accept it. And you know, hearing you say that the quicker I accepted and other artists accepted, maybe the less painful it will be. Fingers crossed. Good luck with that. Yeah, we’re trying here. We’re trying,

Romona Youngquist: 49:23

I remember we are our talk earlier. Yeah, you’re going through the same type of thing.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:30

Yeah, we’re just trying to figure it out, you know?

Romona Youngquist: 49:33

Well, I think that’s it’s just important. It’s the process you got, you got to do it. But you Oh, I wish it was easier. I tell you this, this is painting is like learning to golf. It’s like, the more you know, the less you know. It’s like you. It’s just like, seems like them. The more you, the more you paint is. It’s, it’s just like, there’s no way I’m going to reach that. I I don’t know is that everybody, does everybody feel that? Or do you get to a certain skill level that you’re comfortable? It’s like, Ah, I’m not, I’ll never be. I can tell. I think

Laura Arango Baier: 50:25

I would be more worried if I was comfortable, in a way, would be, it would be, but at the same time, I mean, I think there’s a bit of a balance, right? Because there are some artists who very, you know, they might enjoy painting sunsets, and very, very good at it, and that’s very comforting. But at the same time, what if you know, like, it’s still not satisfying? I think there’s some point where, like, it has to be hard enough where it’s satisfying, but not so hard that you won’t do it. You know, like, it has to be a good level of challenge to keep you going. Because I don’t know if you’ve also experienced this for like, you think, oh my gosh, how could I ever paint this one thing that I’ve never attempted to paint before? And suddenly you learn to paint it, and you’re like, oh, wow, that’s amazing. Oh, this other thing over here I could never and then you do that, and it’s like, oh, I figured it out. You know,

Romona Youngquist: 51:23

oh, no, that’s a challenge. Yeah. That’s like, yeah, some like, feared of work. Oh, I’m just in awe of what I see and what I just think it’s so hard, it’s got to be, it

Laura Arango Baier: 51:44

can be at least, yeah.

Romona Youngquist: 51:49

Now the skill,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:52

yeah, but I think painting landscapes is

Unknown: 51:54

hard, really, yeah, I’ve never

Laura Arango Baier: 51:57

done it, so that’s why it’s like, Hmm, that’s amazing. I don’t know how to do that. Maybe I’ll try it one day. We’re in like, opposite places. Yeah, it’s just a matter of trying it, maybe. But I also did want to ask you, since you know we’re still talking about you and your career, when did you notice that your career started picking up, that you started like selling more of your work, because you did mention in Alaska, you were selling some of your nostalgic sort of pieces. Did that also help kick start your career? Or was it, you know, maybe something else that got you going as well.

Romona Youngquist: 52:42

No, I think that did. But then we moved to Oregon, and, oh, I felt like that’s I just fell in love with the landscape. And I think that really I That’s when I noticed I went to a trajectory that was just where I want. This is where I wanted to be. There’s so many paintings everywhere I looked. I just it was crazy. And so I worked just as many as I could, because, I mean, I loved it. I mean, I still love, it is just so, so wonderful. But I was in a gallery. I got into a really good gallery called Lawrence gallery, back in the day, it was just, it was the gallery of the valley here and and I sold really well, and I’m so thankful for that and that that really got me going and and then in Arizona, an artist kind of told me about, I mean, there he he mentioned his gallery that he can’t, I mean, about my work or something. And that really got me going, because I got into that gallery, and that was probably the biggest jump. And so nice. That’s awesome, Yep, yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:19

That’s really, I mean, it goes to show, you know, like, when your work really speaks to someone, I think that’s one of the biggest, like gains, and then, of course, that inevitably, magically, and it’s so funny, because every single time that I talk to an artist who’s had, you know, some success with their work, has Been able to sell it. It always turns out very similar, where their work is just so beautiful, it’s unavoidably like going to be seen, you know, like, as long as you put it out there as well, and you talk to other artists and like, you make sure that you’re connecting with people as well, which I think is another underrated part of being an artist. We. We were such loners, but we do rely on, and we need to remember to rely on also socializing

Romona Youngquist: 55:10

with other artists. Kind of have to do it

Laura Arango Baier: 55:13

yes, because then if you’re if you’re a lonely artist in your studio, then that’s like the epitome of the whole starving artists dilemma that a lot of people Yeah, exactly, yeah. You can’t, you can’t do much as an artist without a community or a gathering of some sort. So it’s Yeah, I love that you mentioned that because, you know, it’s like, oh, you know, a friend of mine really loved the work, mentioned it to their gallerist. And here we are right because, you know, they loved it so much, and that at, you know, the barest level means your work is beautiful, and it, you know, merits being seen by a lot of people. You know.

Romona Youngquist: 55:58

Thank you. You’re

Laura Arango Baier: 55:59

welcome, yeah. And then I also want to ask you, because I love that you have this intuitive like, go with the flow vibe. Do you? Do you have any advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Romona Youngquist: 56:22

Oh, well, I actually would tell them to just go outside and paint as much as you can before you be. I would say, okay, get a big body of work ready. I mean, huge and you have a backup, because you never know, but it’s so hard. I think, like I said, the more I know is such a struggle that it’s daunting, and I’m afraid if, if I gave somebody advice, I’d scare them off. But no, I would say, you know, if that’s what you really love to do, if this is what you want to do, you just make it. You just do it. You just force yourself. And you just get in a place where, and like I said, have a lot of paintings before you actually make the jump and solid, good paintings. And just if that’s what you want to do, you just make it work.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:38

Yes, I like that. I think that’s excellent advice, because you can’t really do much with an, I guess, undeveloped work, you know, like, and I am guilty of that when I was, you know, in my early days as an artist, it’s so easy to be like, Okay, this is how you can do it. And this is, you know, I just do this and do this and do that and talk to that guy, and then it’s like, wait, but like, am I even painting what I like? Am I even painting what makes me happy? And then, of course, suddenly you get this dip. We’re like, oh my gosh, I’m depressed, but I’m doing the career I wanted, which is being an artist. What’s going on? And it’s like, yeah, I’m not pursuing my my vision anymore. I’m pursuing like, the either the dollar sign or the market outside, exactly, or like the outside sort of approval, right? Because it isn’t necessarily like, for me. It isn’t really like the Oh yeah, like this person’s amazing. It’s more like, oh their work is nice, right? It’s like the that approval part, which is, I think, why a lot of artists also seek out, you know, improving their technique so much. But I mean, technique could never, ever replace having that vision. You know, you can have all the technique in the world, but it will never necessarily give your art a soul. You know,

Romona Youngquist: 59:02

I like that. You know, you have to make sure you have that vision before you really make you know you do this, you’ve got to have that vision. I mean, you know a lot. And another part of me says to knowing what I know now, if you’re able to have another career, which I didn’t obviously do, if you really love painting and you have a vision, maybe do it on spare time, maybe, maybe not make it a career, maybe. But then, I don’t know that’s that’s another aspect of it. You know, could you sometimes when it gets so hard. Yeah, you can it can be a love hate relationship.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:04

So no, I totally agree. I totally agree. Because especially with the state of the world right now, where it feels very unstable in a lot of ways, economically, yeah, all of these things, it is good to have something to fall back on, yeah, because if there’s one thing that will make you hate your work fast, it’s the fact that if you don’t have, like, a solid financial base to work from, you’ll end up hating it to some extent, kind of like I just said that love hates, like, oh, supposed to do what I love you want to and to protect the love you have for this, this skill, right? This, this thing that is okay if it’s a hobby, right? I think that’s one of those things that some people, they want to monetize all their hobbies. It’s like, you don’t have to just enjoy it, right? Yeah, it is. I think it’s very pragmatic to consider that aspect. Like, it’s nice to imagine a utopia where it could be done and it can, but it has so many ups and downs, and now we’re, you know, again, unstable, yeah, in an unstable moment of time, I’m so tired of being in like, Unstable Times. Oh, my God, that it is, it is good to have something else going on to protect that love. It’ll be hard, but hey, at least you get to still experience, you know, creating something without that economic pressure, without the fear of, oh my gosh, my lights are gonna get turned off, or what am I gonna eat next month you can’t eat paint, you know.

Romona Youngquist: 1:01:41

Now you know, yeah, I think it is much harder right now. I think being a young artist would be, it would be so hard to do it right now. And, yeah, and that love hate thing, and once you’re on survival mode, oh, sometimes you can’t do your best work that way. Sometimes you can. Some people are forced. I mean, I’ve always been on survival mode. So what am I to talk that’s just but, yeah, being on survival mode right in this moment in time is, that’s tough, yeah. And I would definitely tell somebody, you know, you get a young, anybody that says, you know, I really want to do this, you know. And then they always, I guess, how many paintings Do you have? It’s like, Nope, you got to have way more than that. So that’s my advice. There we go, yes, absolutely. Body of work, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:54

And I think the other thing that goes along with that having that body of work is also you give yourself the time to experiment as much as you can. Yeah, because yeah, later on, if you’re working with a gallery, because I have heard it’s funny. I have heard artists also say, like, enjoy being anonymous for a while, for as long as you can when you’re an early artist. Because suddenly, when you start, you know, getting more known, the market starts to also demand back from you, yes.

Romona Youngquist: 1:03:28

And then there’s a judgment you can’t deviate Exactly. And then, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:36

Yep, yeah, those are the tough parts. Also, I just remembered you didn’t tell us about when you met this artist who was your the landscape artist that you looked up to. His name was Russell.

Romona Youngquist: 1:03:49

Oh yeah. Russell Chatham, yes, yes, oh yeah. I bought his book. I mean, I his book is in tatters now. But anyway, he’s a much loved. He died, you know, not too long, kind of, I don’t know how long it’s been, but anyway, so he’s just my idol, and I was in Sun Valley, and he was actually there in a show. It was a fly artist that fly fish show is like, Oh my god. Russell Chatham is right here, and there’s a show tonight, and I’m going. And so I go, and there he is. It’s like, in his work, and it’s like, I was starstruck. And finally I go up to him, and it’s like, okay, what do I ask him? That’s stupid me. I go watch your palette, like, Duh. What a stupid thing. But he was so kind, and he was so funny. He’s. He has this crooked nose, and he’s, you know, he’s taller, tall. And he looked at me, and he goes, Well, he goes, my advice is, you know, you have six colors on your palette, you know, basic colors, and more than that. If you have more than that, you’re effed. It’s like, oh, my god, that was the best advice I’ve ever had. It’s like, every time I wanted to go and get all these beautiful colors, you know, I I start putting them on my palette, it’s like, oh, Russell said you’re effed more. And so I really tried to keep it to a minimum. And it’s always, it’s, it’s just some it’s been great. So I love that. I I got to meet him and and I knew he, you know that that foul language?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:03

I mean, I think to some extent he’s definitely right. I know, obviously there are a lot of artists out there have different numbers and paints on the palette, but there is, you know, I think the reason he must have said that too is because it’s so much easier to harmonize a smaller palette than it is a very extended palette. I am. I’m a limited palette person, so my I have four, and I’m pretty I might extend to six now, just don’t do seven. No, no, but yeah, there’s, it’s, it’s certainly much easier to harmonize a smaller palette than a larger one, unless you know, you know how to handle all well. He was basically talking,

Romona Youngquist: 1:06:49

you know, a new artist. You know, somebody that’s not skill. Somebody is skilled. You can do

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:55

what you watch. But, oh yeah, for sure, for sure, I think limited palette is the best to start with, you know, like, you’re because of that, because it’s so it’s the, you know, shiny new object thing where it’s like, oh, and that color is so pretty, yeah. So I recently got myself some Ultramarine violet to play around with because, you know, it’s the really nice thing about starting with that limited palette when you’re the beginner and even later on, when you’re still an expert. You know, playing with limited palette is that you you get such a great base to start with, and then with the Ultramarine violet, it’s like, okay, I already know what I’m doing, and I can, you know, intuitively understand where to start, peppering it in, or, you know, play around with it, experiment with it in, with more knowledge on me than, like, if I was just a beginner, wanting to play with all the colors. You know, right?

Romona Youngquist: 1:07:40

Exactly. I want to try that, though that sounds, that sounds very interesting,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:49

yeah, yeah. Because it’s a really nice transparent, like, it would be very pretty. I tried it for a glaze, and it was very, very pretty. So, yeah, that’s what

Romona Youngquist: 1:07:57

I’m thinking. Yeah. Girl,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:59

so a nice sunset,

Romona Youngquist: 1:08:02

yeah, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:06

but, yeah. So do you mind telling us if you have any upcoming shows, exhibitions, fun stuff that you got going on that you’d like to promote?

Romona Youngquist: 1:08:15

Well, yes, I have the, you know, the art elements, local gallery that I’ll be in in August. That’s going to be my, my big focus right now and then, wild women of the West. We have, let’s see that. I’m a part of Shanna. Is a part of it this nine of us really wild painters. No, we’re not wild, it’s just wild women, you know, paint the West, and so we get together, and that’s really fun. And we’re doing in in, oh heck, that one is in September. I have to get back to you on that one. See, I knew I would space something out, because it’s the end of the deal here, and I’m going to Scotland to paint next year with the group, and that’s exciting because I’m leaving home that’s not in my 20 Mile surrounding area. So what, what will happen to me? I don’t know, but yeah, and new stuff all the time on my website, Ramona youngquist.com, and see what else. Now I’m just this this year, I’m just focusing on, really, on that art elements show and whatever happens, happens. I’m just doing a lot of experimentation and but thank you so much for having me.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:09:54

Yeah, thank you so much for being here. Actually, do you mind telling us your

Romona Youngquist: 1:09:57

Instagram handle? Really quick. Oh. Ramona young puss,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:02

that’s easy, yeah, it’s easy, yeah. But it was awesome to have you on. I think you know, this is one of those conversations that definitely hits deep in terms of being an artist and trying to figure stuff out. So I appreciate, I appreciate having you on.

Romona Youngquist: 1:10:20

Oh, and I appreciate you. I mean, you gave me all kinds of ideas to just, you know, like you said, We’re loners, but when we actually talk to people, it’s like, why didn’t I do that more often? Yeah? It’s like, I actually like that. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:37

Well, thank you, and I hope you have a lovely rest of your day. You too in Sweden, yes. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

Get over 50% off your first year on your artist website with FASO:
https://www.FASO.com/podcast/

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https://register.boldbrush.com/live-guest

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In our final episode of the year, we sat down with David Griffin, a fine artist with a love of capturing the nostalgic scenes of his childhood. David shares his journey from pre‑med student and college baseball player in Lubbock, Texas to becoming a successful illustrator and, later, a fine artist rooted in realism and storytelling. He recounts formative experiences at the Illustrators Workshop in New York, his years sharing a Dallas studio with top illustrators, and the lessons they taught him about composition, narrative, and creating “a place for the eye to rest.” David explores how memory, truth, and heritage—big skies, ranch life, and family artifacts—shape his work and give it emotional honesty. A major focus is David’s new long-term project, “The Art of Wandering,” where he will document how mental and physical wandering with a sense of wonder leads to ideas, large paintings, and deeper relationships with collectors and fellow artists. David also dives into the idea of art as a lifelong calling, discussing struggle, hard work versus talent, the trap of imitating others, and the importance of finding one’s own authentic voice by pursuing one’s own heart. David closes by reflecting on art as a conversation without words, his hope that truthful work outlives the artist, and his gratitude for the creative community and opportunities ahead.

David’s FASO site:
davidgriffinstudio.com

David’s Social Media:
instagram.com/davidrgriffin

facebook.com/david.griffin.5

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Transcript:

David Griffin: 0:00

I don’t know that art is supposed to be fun. I think it’s supposed to be purposeful. I think we have joyful moments, but I think the struggle is what makes our art better. So if anyone’s listening out there about at the beginning stage or even intermediate, pursue your own heart. Somebody says, Be true to yourself. I think that’s a trite statement, but you, that’s where your voice is going to come from, inside you, not outside you. It’s going to come from the whispers inside you.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:36

Welcome to the BOLDBRUSH show, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In our final episode of the year, we sat down with David Griffin, a fine artist with a love capturing the nostalgic scenes of his childhood. David shares his journey from pre med student and college baseball player in Lubbock, Texas to becoming a successful illustrator and later a fine artist rooted in realism and storytelling. He recounts formative experiences at the Illustrator’s workshop in New York. His years sharing a Dallas studio with top illustrators and the lessons they taught him about composition, narrative and creating a place for the eye to rest. David explores how memory, truth and heritage, big skies, ranch, life and family artifacts shape his work and give it emotional honesty. A major focus is David’s new long term project, the art of wandering, where he will document how mental and physical wandering with a sense of wonder leads to ideas large paintings and deeper relationships with collectors and fellow artists. David also dives into the idea of art as a lifelong calling, discussing struggle, hard work versus talent, the trap of imitating others and the importance of finding one’s own authentic voice by pursuing one’s own heart. David closes by reflecting on art as a conversation without words, his hope that truthful work outlives artist and his gratitude for the creative community and opportunities ahead. Welcome David to the BOLDBRUSH show. How are you today?

David Griffin: 2:24

Oh, I’m wonderful. This is a real pleasure and an honor for me to be invited to be with you, and thank you for including me in this.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:33

Yeah, of course, I’m so excited to talk to you, because the moment I saw your work, I had so many words come to mind. I had this feeling of expansiveness, feeling of this beautiful play of focus, texture, color, light, especially you have one painting that I couldn’t stop looking at. I can’t remember the title, but it’s this beautiful, shaded sort of landscape with a canyon in the back, and the only thing that really lights up is the top of the canyon. And I think that painting it is so fun to look at.

David Griffin: 3:12

Well, thank you that those happen, those accidents, those happy accidents, happen when you wander around, which we’ll get to in a little bit. But well, thank you for that. That’s a kind and that affirmation, as we talked about before, will now last me for about three weeks. So that’s the energy from this whole process is going to be a lot of a lot of giddy up in my day. Give me a lot of giddy up in my day. Anyway, that’s a that’s some West Texas slang for you. We’ll just start out with that. And people always ask me, when I’m other places in the country, where are you from? This it happened, oh, multiple times. I’m in the Coors show coming up in January that’s coming up, 2620 26 January the seventh is the opening. But so those people would come from all over the country to the show, and they would say, Well, where are you from? And I would always answer, well, I was born in Lubbock, Texas. I went to school at Lubbock High School and in Texas Tech. In fact, I had two teachers my I had two teachers in high school that my parents had had also as students in the same high school. They thought, Well, what your accent is so strong? So after a few years of this, I got kind of tired of answering the same question with the same answer. So I thought, well, I’ll just see if I can outsmart somebody. And so the next time someone asked me, this was the next show, this was the following year. And I said, Well, I’m originally from Boston, and I lived in Boston for 45 years, and I’ve just moved to Texas. I. And I’m working on my Texas accent. Do you think it works? And they went, Oh yeah, it’s working very well. So after about an hour, I got to feeling guilty because they took the bait and and they bit, and I felt guilty about deceiving them, so I went by, found them. I said, Look, I’m not from Boston. I’ve been to Boston. I love Fenway Park. I love baseball at Red Sox, but I’m not from Boston. I’m from Lubbock, Texas. They go, you completely fooled us. And to change who I am for a minute, or was for a minute. Anyway, I A that would lead me into telling you what. Maybe you would like to ask me a question and I’ll answer otherwise, I’ll start off and just, you know, extemporaneously speak about anything on my mind. You probably don’t want that. So why don’t you?

Laura Arango Baier: 5:57

Oh, no, that’s totally fine. I mean, I do want you to tell us some more about who you are and what you do now we know you’re from Texas and not from Boston, yeah.

David Griffin: 6:08

Well, as I said, I grew up in Lubbock, Texas, a small town. It was a small town when I was there. It’s not a small town any longer, up in the panhandle of Texas, known for cotton, raising cotton, and it’s, it was, it’s a huge part of that economy and culture. Now dairy farming has become a real big part of but it’s an agricultural city, town, neighborhood. So like I said, I was born there I went to high school. There I went to I just stayed and went to school at Texas Tech University. Back then. That’s different than my children, who visited 14 colleges. It seemed like before they decided on the one they were going to go to. I didn’t just decide. I just said, Well, I’ll just go to tech. I’ll just, you know, while I’m here, that’s a good school. There’s only for me to look around. So I didn’t. Years later, I probably thought I should have looked around, but I didn’t, because I met my wife there, and we married while we were in school, but she went to tech as well. But it was an interesting journey that I took from being what I thought I was going to start out to be. Was a doctor. So I my initial classes were, were, you know, engaged in the in the pre med area, chemistry, sciences, biology, all those things that I quickly found out, not quickly, soon enough, found out that I had no business being in no aptitude for had I had also walked on and made the baseball team at Texas Tech, so I was trying to play baseball there as well. Well, my journey to being an artist is really a path with a lot of turns and crooked paths and even wandering off into a ditch or two off the road. So about two years into college, I quickly found out, with some help of some of my instructors, that I had no business being in pre med. I’ll be transparent here, and as honest as I know how to be, and that is, I flunked two classes, calculus and analytical chemistry, and at that time, this was going on in the early 70s. 1971 into the Vietnam War was raging, and it was a big thing, and you were and the draft was in full force. And so at that time, if you were not a full time student in college, meaning you had to be taking 12 to at least 12 hours that your deferment, or your your classification went from 4f to one A and and they quickly found you. So I had to make a decision from that those two grades, what I was going to do. I had, I need. I had, literally, I had about two days or three days to decide my major had to change and I had to go back and re I didn’t have to re register, but I had to change my major. So I never I didn’t know an artist. I didn’t know anything about being an artist. There were no artists in my families, my extended families. But I always had like to draw. For some reason, I just like to doodle and draw. And I would, I could, I could make things look somewhat realistic. So I thought, well, I’ll just do that. I’ll just start taking life drawing classes at Texas Tech at night, I was working some during the day. I. So I started taking that, and the next thing I knew, within about a month or two, I thought, this is really something I have connected to. So from that, I just started completely over with my curriculum. And took life drawing, took some took color theory, took design, took graphic design, no illustration or no painting. Did I take? I just took the basics of design in color theory, and I had a right Cheatham was it had just come to Texas Tech. He had been walking working for Saul Bass, which is who was a big graphic designer on the West Coast. Had done a bunch of big had big plants. He was a big movie poster guy. Designed a lot of big movie posters. Frank was a really good, great teacher, and so he taught us about design and color theory. And I still use those thoughts today. This is 50 years later. So long story short, about a year and a half after that, after that change of my life, basically, one of my instructors had sent some work of mine to a what was then a brand new school up in New York. It was an illustrator called illustrators workshop in New York. It was upstate New York in Tarrytown, New York, right on the Hudson, Terry towns, famous for Ichabod, crane and Headless Horseman. So we went up there. Didn’t know any of the didn’t know anybody. In fact, that was my first time to New York City or even see a museum. My very first museum to see was the Metropolitan Museum in New York City as a 20 year old, 2020, 21 excuse me, didn’t know anyone, so it was an Illustrator’s workshop. I studied with Mark English, Bernie Fuchs, Bob peak, Robert hindale and Fred otness, and we all. We just took turns going to their studios. They would bring us projects, and we would work on and we’d go into the city to do research and come back. We took the train back and forth to Manhattan, back to Terry Kent, and for the bigger part of that summer, that’s all we did was learn how to be an illustrator. And so that was my first introduction into the art world. And at that time, these illustrators were making really good money as an illustrator. They were Sports Illustrated. Was buying a lot of work, Time Magazine, Newsweek magazine, Ladies Home Journal, spending 1000s and 1000s of dollars per image, per per illustration. So I just thought, automatically. I thought, well, this is where I belong. I belong in this. This is, this is a good choice. David, well, I was by far the weakest in the class. There were 44 students, and they from all over the world, from Canada, from Germany, Europe, United States, all over Mexico, South America, South Africa. I really found out real quickly what it was to be the lowest man on the totem pole, because that was me. I did. I really didn’t belong in the classes, but I was, I was so interested in learning about this so and I’m an illustrator, for about 10 years, then from about 1976 to about 86 and I, and even in that point, I had been so fortunate, really fortunate, divinely fortunate. I got, I was asked to share a studio space with what was then, who was then, he’s still alive. He’s one of my best friends, an illustrator, Bart Forbes and Jack Unruh had built, had bought a house just outside of downtown Dallas, and they turned it into studios. And they were two. They had their two studios, and they had an open studio, and they asked me if I would like to come in and pay rent and share a studio space with them. We had, it was wonderful. And I guess for the next 10 years, I learned so much from those guys. Not they didn’t intend to teach me, but by watching them deal with clients, work with deadlines. And back then, illustration was really, basically, you got a script for a story or a novel or something, and you were going to illustrate this script, so watching them interpret verbally into visual their their their verbal vocabulary into a visual vocabulary was a huge lesson for me of learning how. And Forbes and Jack Unruh were just wonderful. They would, they would call me up into their studios and say, Hey, would you critique this illustration for me? I’ve got to send it to Sports Illustrated or sports or field tomorrow. It’s got to go out tomorrow. But I need some I need for you to look and I’m, I am as green as SAP, green out of the tube of paint. That’s as green as I was. And they were asking me their opinion. And they this was not a joke to them. They were very serious about hearing what I had to say. And I thought, my doc, no one’s ever asked my opinion about much of anything, and so that made me realize that your voice did that, that the human voice and the human mind has a real valuable part of communicating to other people and Communicating in dialoguing with other people. And the one thing I learned from Jack Unruh particularly, he came up one day and he said, Look at this. And he did a lot of pen and ink and big things. He said, I want you to look at this, but I want you to tell me if there’s a place for the eye to relax. And I thought, what? And I said, Yeah, over here. He said, Okay, that’s so that’s my first that was my one of the first big lessons was learning that a visual image had to need, or needed an area for the for the eye, the viewer, to sit metaphorically in this image and rest and take a breath and just absorb and so that I still that’s one of my biggest missions, or biggest messages, is finding a place the eye to relax. So that’s that’s always been important to me, and it still is today. Well, I can continue, or you can interrupt me, and we can change and shift gears here, if you’d like to go in a different direction.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:15

Oh, well, I think it’s absolutely fascinating, because I can definitely see the illustrative approach in terms of composition and color play in your work. And I think to me, it’s very fascinating, because a lot of the type of schooling that has happened today for artists in general has shifted into the more contemporary approach of just paint what you feel you don’t have to know how to paint, and that’s like the majority of art schools today. But I have found that it is illustration that has really continued bearing that torch of the past realist painters, especially at the turn of the century, because, you know, realism had started to die out. You know, the Great War happened, and then World War Two, and then the Cold War and Vietnam and all these things, I think, disenchanted a lot of people, and the world shifting really made people stop enjoying realism as much. But illustration really maintained that. And I love hearing how your background. And, you know, taking this illustration workshop helped you with color composition and how to see a painting. And like you said, you know, the storytelling aspect, the turning of verbal feeling, idea, or, you know, story, into a visual representation of something. And I think that, to me, is one of the most wonderful, amazing things of illustration that I think a lot of art schools like, you know, the, I don’t want to say traditional, but the more contemporary art schools, even actually the Atelier systems that are happening today are lacking. It’s either pure technique or pure concept, but there’s no real wherewithal of, how do I actually use these things to compose? Right? It’s as if someone goes to a music school and they learn how to play the violin really, really well. They know how to play Beethoven or Bach or any of these old musicians, very, very well. But then now they go out into the world and they want to compose their own music that takes a very different approach than just knowing how to play the instrument really, really well. But all this to say that, I think it’s fascinating, you know, having had the opportunity to really study illustration in a time when illustration was still very much a very wonderful career to have, before, of course, digital took over, and then all the illustrators, unfortunately had to shift gears either learn the digital. Or find a different job or become traditional fine artists, which that actually did happen a lot to a lot of illustrators, from what I’ve noticed. So yeah, I find that to be absolutely fascinating. And if anything, I It also makes me wonder, what does it mean to you to be an artist. Okay?

David Griffin: 20:26

To backtrack just a little bit. So those were the people, the elder, early illustrators that I I was introduced to contemporary illustration. But they all had learned some personally, but others like I had through books, paintings of the old illustrators, Howard Powell, NC, Wyeth, Frank Schoonover, well, I can just, I can go through all kinds of lists of all of them, but what they did was they had to tell a story. And so the narrative became so important. It it wasn’t equal to the visual, but it was every bit almost as important. So that’s what I learned about that. And so what it meant from what it means for me to be an artist, is really, there’s a heritage that that I have grown up well, I have in my art career, have grown up with the heritage of telling a story. We all have a story to tell, and stories resonate with people. Visual stories have a double, twice as many, a multiplied chance of of connecting with the viewer, if the visual connects with the story, if the story is is visually apparent, then I believe, and I know this, I don’t just believe it, I know it that really connects with with People. So having learned that, I saw the value in that, and so you’re not that many years later, like I said, I was in Illustrator for about 10 years. Then I decided that I was really tired of being just a pair of hands. I was reading scripts. I had a overnight deadline, in some cases, to deliver something to them that they could use in a printed so you have line which I learned at a really valuable time of my career. The deadlines are important, but that also taught me how to think a little quicker. I had to make a decision. I had to do so put paint on the canvas, and that’s what I learned, is is developing a storyline quickly in my head, and that words mattered, and I needed to figure out how I could visually take care of that. So what an artist means to me is that I have learned how to communicate what I think in my own life better. People that know me know that I can talk and I’m not. I don’t have a problem speaking to almost anyone in one language, English, I don’t I know a little Spanish, and that’s it. And most of it’s not to be derogatory, but most of its text message text Max Spanish, which is kind of a slang between English and Spanish. But what I learned that when I finally decided that this is what I was going to do, much to the chagrin of my family, they didn’t think that. They thought art and being an artist was a hobby and could be done after hours or on weekends. This is, that’s not you. That’s, that’s your job. And I still have friends today who say, Well, you don’t work. David, you don’t. You just stand up in front of an easel, eight or 910, hours a day and six, seven days a week, that’s not work. Well, I would argue with most of them, but maybe all of them that it is work because painting is hard work, but being an artist to me has allowed me to communicate something that’s deep in my core, from my faith, from scripture, from whatever I’ve grown up with, and today’s the paintings that I’m producing today are, for the most part, memories from my childhood. And so I’ve been I’ve been able to become a little more aware of my heritage where I grew up, the part of com, the country I grew up with. You mentioned early on in the conversation that one of the things that that you noticed about some of my paintings were the expanse well to grow up in Lubbock, Texas. That’s what I knew. Was expanse, very small horizons, big skies, big areas of just cotton farming or ranches. And we had a small ranch, a medium sized ranch, and so I knew about the concept of being a small person in a big world and in today’s in my work today, I still one of the first things I think about is, can I describe the scale of what I’m talking what I’m visually talking about. Well, that’s really easy for me to draw from my childhood big skies in Lubbock. You could look west or east, but most the time West, and you would see a cloud formation, and maybe a storm was coming in, and you could watch it from miles away form, get darker, darker, louder, and so that made a huge impact on me, and that was in the daytime, as well as not at night. You could hear the clouds, see em, see the lightning. All those things have become so important to to continue to speak about visually and so back to your question, what it means to be an it means that I can speak genuinely, authentically, with with some with transparency about who I am, who, where I came from, my studios this I’m in my Colorado studio today, and will be for a while, but my Texas studio, what I have is items emblematic, items of my heritage, Charit my heritage, legacy. In Colorado studio, I have my grandfather’s saddle that he was a cowboy from the time he was he was abandoned at 11 by his father at 11 years old. From 11 till 22 he was a cowboy. And I have his saddle that from the matador ranch in 1916 I have, I have the saddle in my studio, and I have another saddle of my saddle in in my Texas studio, but I have hats, my father’s hats, so all those things remind me of of who I am, and what I what my purpose is, what my heritage is. And I think that’s so important. When I talk to young people, I say, Don’t Don’t forget of where you came from, because that’s so important to who you’re going to become, the good stuff and the bad stuff. And so I’m grounded by elements in my studios that helped me remind me of that, and it just it enhances the fact that I get to be an artist that I was, is my in my estimation, I’ve been called this is the one thing I can do, and if it’s called talent and but it’s a gift, and my intention is to be the best steward of this gift I can be. So this is a lifelong process. I don’t I’ll work till I can’t work my I know there were artists that I’ve known that have worked until they no longer were breathing, and some of them were in the studio when that happened. And I hope that’s what happens to me, that I’m here working on something, and it’s time’s up and but that will, that nothing would bring me greater joy, other than my family, than that, that I can do this my entire life and continue to learn. And that leads, I guess, to the to one of the question of questions, was what I’m doing now. And about a month ago, I had a I had a painting in a show in the idol George museum show, the quest for the West Show. And at the title of the painting was the art of wandering. And somebody commented on that and said, That’s a title of a book. You that’s, that’s your title of your book. I know you, and you’ve wandered around a lot in your life, and I thought my, this is something so my, I’m in, in the new year, I’m going to it’s not an announcement, but it will be promoted is for the next 1412, to 1415, months. That’s what I’m going to do, is document the art of my wandering, and that’s inside the studio and on location. And I mean by wandering, I mean wandering with wonder. Uh, what I’ve learned, the many things I’ve learned from many artists, valuable things that I’ve learned from other people was that regardless of what I think I want to paint, if I allow myself to wonder, and that means mentally as well as physically, that ideas will come from many sources, but they don’t come with a with a lot of fireworks. They don’t come with a blast of neon or a loud trumpet sound. They come in little whispers and little nuances of when I’m wandering around in my mind or I’m wandering in outdoors. The the art of wandering is a specific message that and any I want to document this I want to I want to document for the next 14 months, 15 months, the paintings I’m working on, what inspired me, what stopped me, what stopped me in my wandering, in my search, in my being outdoors, or in my mind wondering what stopped me. And I want to make note of that, and I want to document the paintings, and I want to talk about them in stages. So I’ve never done this before, but I want, I’m going to invite people into the studio and with me on location, and we’ll film, and I’ll, I’ll interview other artists as I want to interview you, and I’ll, and we’ll talk about the the because I believe this is a common thread that runs through all of our lives, all of our artistic, creative lives. I think we’re all looking for something, and how we look for that may be a little different, and this is not a novel idea, but it is novel for me. So I’m going to invite people to on the journey with me, this this wandering with me, and we’re going to stop, and we’ll be still for a while, and we’ll think about things, and that’s part of the wandering. You don’t have to be active. Want actively wandering. You can be sitting still, wandering in your mind, wandering with wonder, is what I want to pursue. Has the world gotten so big and so complicated and so loud that we can’t we can’t sit still and just let our minds wander, explore with a sense of wonder, where we are. Who? How do we connect? Who do how do we connect with this, this creation? Where are we involved in all this? So that’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to work on larger paintings during this next year and a half. Whatever it is. I don’t have a deadline, but I think at the end of it, I’ll know, and I want to pursue the idea of doing a solo show with the with these and documenting these things verbally and visually. And what, what has struck me is this will be the first time that I’ve ever had a body of work, extended body of work, that I that the story will hopefully will be, will be a thread through all the paintings and drawings or whatever I include in this and there’ll be a narrative that will be up, down around the corner, down the stairs, up the stairs, up the mountain, down the mountain, and that will hopefully resonate with people about what it means for me to be an artist. So I’m going to pursue that with all I have and, and, and I’ll, I’ll bump into things, and I’ll drop the ball a couple of times, and I’ll wander off the I’ll get off in the weeds probably, and that may be fun too, but I’m not so concerned about making mistakes, because I think as artists in my life anyway, my failures, which are many multiplied, have been the best teachers for me, so I’m not afraid of wandering off and failing and looking maybe a little foolish, because those are the times that I really learn valuable lessons about what it means to be an artist. And so I’m going to as as courageously as I can. I’m going to pursue this, probably not in a fearless manner, but as close to fearless as I can be, just continuing to walk toward my failures and seeing what I can learn from those and maybe there will be somebody in the audience, listening, watching whatever it is, maybe that’ll raise. Resonate with them, and we can, we can learn about these parts of being an artist together. We can learn together. And I can learn from them, from their feedback, if they are comfortable commenting, some of them may and and I realize when you offer somebody a chance critiques, there will be critiques. And so I have to, I have to be aware and understand that that all words are valuable and they mean something. I have to figure out which ones mean something to me. And so anyway, so that’s what I’m working on now, and I’m excited about doing it. I’ve hired a young person in the UK, as a matter of fact, and she’s going to help me visually and physically move through these things with some editing and writing and other things so and I will acknowledge her skill gladly, and this collaboration will be fun, I think. But anyway, that’s the that’s there’s some mystery in it. There’s certainly some uncertainty about all of it. But I’m, I think I’m far enough in my career that I think this is what I need. I need to do this. I need to I would regret not doing it. I think so I’m going to do this, and we’ll figure out what happens in the meantime. The other purpose is, is giving me a chance to connect in a different way with collectors. Galleries are important, and they have been important to me, but they don’t offer the opportunity to meet and speak on an extended period of time with someone that’s interested in buying your work. Most of it’s done remotely. I’m not there when it happens. Shows are different matter. You can actually speak to, you know, an exhibit at a museum show or at the core show, you can actually speak to the people why they’re interested? What, what, what stopped them, what connected? And that’s what I really want to spend also in this art of wandering journey is hopefully being able to connect with new collectors and and establish a relationship, create an opportunity for for the collector to be part of the process of what I’m doing, not that they would tell me what to do, but I want to know what. I want to know what what made them aware of what I’m doing, what made them if it stopped them, fine. If it angered them, if it made them happy, if it brought them some peace, I need to know about all that, and the only way I can know about that is having a conversation, or some sort of dialog with them. So that’s the other part of this process. Journey is I want to I want to open up that avenue of of connecting on a deeper level with the collector or the interested parties. It’s just going to help me better. It’s going to help me communicate better. It’s going to be helped me to be a better artist. It’ll probably help me be a better person. I’ll I’ll find out, you know, what it is that I’m doing, if it makes any sense at all to anybody, if it matters. So those are the things that I think are on my mind today and will be for a while. And isn’t it wonderful for me? Isn’t this such a blessing for me to be able to because you’re the first one, you are the initial platform that I’ve been able to that I’ve been given opportunity to announce this new endeavor. So I’m grateful to you for the timing and for the opportunity to talk about what’s on my heart today. So thank you Laura and and BOLDBRUSH and and FASO and all the other thing, all this, this umbrella of wonderful creative people that have given me the opportunity to show my work in such a wonderful fashion. So that’s it continues to be a cool collaboration from my end of the stick or my end of the bargain of surrounding myself with people that that allow me to be better at what I’m doing. So thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:30

Well, thank you at BOLDBRUSH, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BOLDBRUSH provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the BOLDBRUSH. And if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BOLDBRUSH show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BOLDBRUSH Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast. You can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast. I mean, I think if anything, We’re the lucky ones too, to be able to experience a project that you are beginning that definitely means so much to you and will certainly connect with other artists who have a wandering mind and who like to wander. I, for sure, am very inspired by your project, because there’s something you mentioned a little earlier at the beginning about this kind of thing that happens to some artists, which is what you think you want to paint, or what you think you want to do, versus what naturally wants to come forth. And that’s actually something that I’ve been meditating on too. So it’s very the timing is perfect for you to be mentioning these things, because, yeah, it’s it’s one thing to think, Oh, well, this looks fun and exciting, and it’s another thing to really tune into that inner whispering voice that guides you in this gentle manner about what your calling is, which also brings me to another thing you mentioned about people thinking, this isn’t a job. I think it’s very funny, because a lot of people assume that being an artist is just, Oh, you just, you just hang out all day. You don’t do anything, I bet you just paint like one painting in a day, and then you go to your patio and hang out. And I think a lot of people have that impression, which is so incorrect. And I agree with you that this isn’t something. This is a lifelong career. It’s, I like to say that this you can’t retire from a calling you. It’s always there. It’s not something that you can just stop. You know,

David Griffin: 43:12

no, I think it’s like for me and like for other creatives, this is like breathing. And that’s, that’s a very, maybe even exaggerated statement, but I remember I had an instructor one time, Bettina stanky, wonderful lady, wonderful painter. I mean, just wonderful person. And she said she came up to me one day we were studying, I was studying with her, and she said, Griff, I’m going to say something to you, and you’re going to you, and you’re going to, you’re not going to understand it, but you need to starve for your work. You need to, you need to do without something for your work. And I didn’t understand initially what I thought she means, well, I’ll just go hungry. I won’t sell anything, and I’ll be I’ll be homeless, or I’ll be destitute, or my wife will want my wife and I’ll be wandering around begging food. She didn’t mean that at all. What she meant was, eventually found out you need to struggle in your work. You need to struggle with this, because otherwise you really won’t struggle. Can bring out things that a comfortable comfort zone place will not. Struggling difficulties suffering will bring about things that that a comfortable calm time won’t so that’s what she meant. And so in good times and bad times, you and I are still artists, and whether it’s Monday or it’s Tuesday afternoon or 430 and Friday morning, we’re still an artist. And I’m I’m not. I can’t be the only one that wakes up at four in the 30 in the morning thinking that’s how I fix that. Painting. That’s where that’s going to be. That’s what I’m going to do. So it’s a 24 hour occupation calling for me, and that’s so important for young people to know and learn, is that they think that that success comes by. I’ll do that, and they’ll like my work. Well, that’s the trap. It’s a it’s a horribly detrimental trap. So the sooner you allow yourself to be yourself and find out what’s inside you, the sooner you get to be comfortable and confident in your own voice, in what you’re doing, in although we are our own worst critics, the only real way to be, I think, to be a real artist is to learn what the truth is and the truth inside us. I remember seeing an interview with Andrew Wyeth one time his documentary, wonderful golly, wonderful artist, the whole that whole family from NC to Andrew to Jamie, love, all their work been inspired by all their work for on on all kinds of levels. But in this interview, he was asked, What’s the most important part of his art is specifically in his paintings? And he said, memory and truth, and that was the answer to his question. And so when he said that, I started, I stopped what I was doing, and I sat down and listened, because he was going to elaborate on what those two things meant, memory and truth. So he, of course, he deals with all of his memory just as as I spoke about in my own life, but he said, I have to be truthful about this. That’s the other component that’s just as important as the memory. So I think that really kind of affirmed where i, where i What I was pursuing was in my own memory, and trying to be as honest as I could and authentic about that work. So his statement had a had a multiple advantage and in blessing to me, and that it kind of affirmed what I was trying to do. I think that’s what we’re talking about an artist’s voice, and how you determine how you get to that voice. What is the path to your own you know, accomplishing that, I think again, that visual voice, your artistic voice, is a lifelong pursuit. It’s it’s complete. I really don’t think you understand the purpose of having an artistic voice, and that is that, that it’s nimble, that it’s organic, and it’s going to change. The voice is going to take on new, new aspects it may not change in a personal way, or personal personality way, and it may, but I think as we grow as artists, our voice is going to become more sensitive, more more aware of of of what you want to say and how to say it. So I think it’s a lifelong process the voice. But I do think in the beginning we all, or at least I did, I started out thinking my voice was somebody else’s work, and that’s, oh, that’s my voice right there. Or this guy paints cowboys. Look at that horse he painted that is beautiful, whether it was Frank Tenny Johnson or my friend Bill Anton, one of the best western artist around of all time. Bill Anton, well, I’ll just do what he did, or what he’s doing, or Jim Reynolds, who I studied with, and I knew horses and cattle, and I we had a ranch, so I did that. But what I think really quickly found out was it has to come from a different place. Your voice has to come from something inside you. And I spoke about this as whispers. I was looking for my voice in as if the songs that I’m looking for love in all the wrong places. I was looking for my voice in all the wrong places. Not that those artists weren’t didn’t respect my but, but, but they were. Their work was noticed as the standard, the very best standard, whether it’s Bill Anton or Jim Reynolds or or Frank Tenny Johnson or Scott Christiansen or Eric Bowman. All. People, Logan Haji, that have stated that are contemporary and have set a standard. They’ve set the level the bar very high for the rest of us to pursue that same sort of excellence. And these are good men and women that Denise malkey pastel is. It’s a wonderful artist. All these people have inspired me to pursue, they have pursued their own voice, and it’s inspired me and encouraged me to inspire my and to pursue my own voice. So I did that years ago, and it’s still being refined. But I think there is a mistake when you start out thinking that someone else’s success can be transferred to you and can be transferred to your own, and you can just that. Can be your voice too. Well, that is a trap, and it’s and it’s, it’s a trap that that’s debate is really enticing. It’s very, you know, oh, wow, this is fun. You know, I don’t know that art is supposed to be fun. I think it’s supposed to be purposeful. I think we have joyful moments, but I think the struggle is what makes our art better. So if anyone’s listening out there about at the beginning stage or even intermediate, pursue your own heart, somebody says, Be true to yourself. I think that’s a trite statement, but you that’s where your voice is going to come from inside you, not outside you. It’s going to come from the whispers inside you. And I was so grateful for so many artists that that showed me that in a very physical manner, they didn’t wag their finger at me and say, Don’t do that again. Don’t, don’t go that. They just told me by what they did, how they did it, how they pursued it. And because of that, I got to learn it at my own speed, which we all do. We all learn at different, different speeds, different times. Everybody’s everybody’s different. And the and the difference, the specific difference that you will bring to the art world, is what the world needs, not they don’t need a copy of somebody else. They need you, your authentic self. So when I finally figured that out, things got a lot more fun for me, and I’ve used that word fun again, they became a lot more. I could draw from a place that I didn’t have to go look for. I had it inside me. It was there, cover it. But anyway, so that’s one thing about a voice, and it is important. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s probably essential. But how you get there is your your decision. But I would just, I would share that pursuing somebody else’s success as your voice is not the correct way to do it, and you’re going to find out the hard way that it’s not the right way. So anyway, I could go on and on and on about all this, my life is an artist, because that’s like I said, it’s, it’s, it’s my life as an artist is, is I is intrinsic, intrinsically connected to my faith, to breathing, to being a human, to being to be a to be curious, to be a wanderer, all those Things are components in my life that I’m so glad great. It’s it’s much more it’s a much more rich. It’s a much richer life. If you allow yourself to wander into these areas that you were either they were mysteries to your certainty and uncertainty that you find out at the end of it, that when you get beyond the struggle, that it was worth it and you would do it again. So that’s what I would be encouraged. Don’t be afraid. You know, be courageous, whatever that word means in an artistic artists life to be courageous, you’re going to have to put yourself out there. You’re going to be you’re going to be exposed, if you will, and you got to be prepared to to accept rejection is a harsh word, but there. There are going to be people that aren’t as complimentary as you’d like for them to be about things you’re doing, and they’re they’re going to find fault, or they’re going to find errors, and everyone has them, and no one’s work is perfect. So you have to be prepared for the comments and learn how to either learn from them or ignore them, one of the two, and probably a little combination of both. Anyway. I love being an artist. I love the life that it’s provided for me, the opportunities like this today, of being included in this wonderful podcast and and the people I’ve met, the other artists I’ve met that can we? Can we can go beyond competing with each other to being to being comrades, brothers and sisters, working to pursue this a common goal, a that we all need, and that the world needs. The world needs good art. The world needs all kinds of art. Art is important. Art in music and dance, in theater and literature, poetry, painting, sculpture, that it just enriches your life if you will allow it to, if you if you will avail yourself to these things, they will. They’ll return the favor. They’ll return, and it’ll be multiplied by what you probably what you expect. So I’m so grateful to be able to be one, the recipient of this gift, and the recipient of all the things that art brings to someone’s life. Someone asked me, or I’ve been asked, well, if you weren’t an artist, what would you do? Well, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know what I’d do. I guess I could. I could, I guess I could sweep up, I guess I could clean up places. I guess I could do things like that. I could be, I could be a mechanic, or I could be a welder, or I could be but it all, it would all have something creative in it. But fortunately, out of desperation, I was given a gift to be an artist, and I think that’s I wouldn’t trade that for anything and and I’m grateful every day that I get to do what I do, and and be a part of the the community of artists that all pursuing the same things, to trying to make give people a chance to a distraction from the noise, a distraction from the pain, distraction, you know, in a peaceful, beautiful way, you know, pursuing beauty and pursuing truth. That’s what I’m that would be, if I had to put things in my in a perspective. I guess those two things would be what I would be about pursuing those two things, beauty and truth. Anyway, this is you’ll you’ll edit this. I will say there’s one particular painting that I just finished, and it kind of talks about the conversation, and the name of the painting is conversation without words. And I’ve told you how important my titles are to me. That’s another area of struggle. This particular painting is titled conversation without words. It’s a recent painting, and I’ve had people comment on it, and I think that’s exactly what as artists. What we do is we, we, we communicate without words. And that’s the important part of my life is, is communicating without without a word, without a verbal noise. It’s interesting one to speak to that about conversation without words. I had a woman call me years ago. She was pursuing a PhD at Arizona State University in music, and she called me and she said we never had met. She said she may have said, Mr. Griffin, and I don’t know why she would call me that. She may hopefully she’s a Dave, but she said, I want to use your painting that I have been inspired by in my PhD, in my doctoral thesis and in the jury process, I want to, I want to put your painting up for the jurors to see when I go before them with my thesis to be juried, to see if my doctorate, if I actually get the PhD. So I want to pursue and I want to get. Your permission to use this your painting as I’m playing this music. I have composed music to this painting. I have been composed the music that I’m going to use for my PhD dissertation by one of your paintings. And I thought, boy, that’s you can’t be you got the wrong number. You didn’t Did you supposed to call somebody else? No, but so I, she sent the music to me, and her pursuit was learning how to look at a painting and hear noises, feel the heat, feel the cold, maybe the wind. You hear the noise the bird or the cricket or the or the or the twig you just stepped on walking across the field, or the the noise of an animal. And so her music was very avant garde. You couldn’t it. The melody was a little bit discordant, very, I’ll put it this way, you couldn’t dance to it. It wasn’t music. But what it did was it opened my mind up to thinking, how can I pursue a painting? How can I pursue a visual thinking about all these other senses being affected. Now, I’m not going to be able to paint something that makes somebody shiver. But I can try. I’m not going to be able to paint something that maybe feel, that they feel the wind, or they hear the wind, or they hear the bird, or they hear the animal, or they hear the noise of someone walking through wandering, the noise of wandering. But I can pursue that from a from a visual standpoint, it’s not going to be a deterrent to me. It will only enhance what I’m trying to do. And so when, when I got there with that conversation and got her music, it really, it really encouraged me to think about the other parts of the visual that I can at least try to introduce, introduce those into the conversation. So conversation without words, that’s important to me. That’s sort of a, I guess, a mantra of mine, to have a conversation, start the conversation without any words and see where it goes. And so far, from my standpoint, I’ve been very fortunate that people have responded and so that so that conversation is continuing, and it will continue, and I’m so grateful that I get to continue that conversation and how I pursue this life as an artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:40

Yes, yes, and, and I, I am very grateful to have you on the podcast, because it’s so inspiring to you know, hear someone who’s painted for so long, and have this level of gratitude and openness, and there’s, there’s this vulnerability in your work that I think is also what really shows through that is inspiring to others as well. I think, you know, one of the reasons this woman reacted to your painting as well is there’s, yeah, there’s an honesty in your work. And I think that’s something else that a lot of artists should pursue. Like you said, you know, with finding that truth inside of themselves, because others resonate right? There’s you know, to touch on what you said earlier about pursuing someone else’s success versus listening to that inner whispering that’s trying to guide you somewhere. Only one of those paths is going to make a huge difference to you and create a sense of fulfillment that you are very much showing us in this interview today, which I think should be more than enough inspiration to our listeners and viewers to just, you know, wander and listen and pursue that truth and memory, like Andrew Wyatt said, because I think that, in the end, that’s what really matters, and that’s what we leave behind as artists. That’s, you know, you look at ancient Greek sculptures, and that honesty and truth and beauty is what’s left behind, yes, of that empire, of that world, of that civilization, it’s always the arts that are the thing that really, I think, represent humanity, as you were saying, as well.

David Griffin: 1:04:35

Well, I think that, I think you’re exactly right about that, the antiquities, we may know about their philosophy, we may know about their policies, we may know about we may but what we actually know it is what’s stood the test of time, and those are the things like the arts, the sculpture, the literature. The paintings, the poetry, the music, the drama, the plays, all those things. Those are the things that speak loudly, and they’re the ones that really tell the true story about the culture or the truth tellers. And so we can learn from that, and hopefully we’re doing you and I are doing things that will outlive us. If they’re important enough, if they’re valuable enough, maybe they will. But that behooves all of us to pursue that, because it may, in fact, what someone’s going to remember about you and me and other artists, they will remember our personalities if they knew us, but if they didn’t know us, then, then what they’re going to know about us is what we did, what we left behind and and so we have to be aware that those things need to matter, and they need to be pursued in a in with excellence, so that if, that is what’s left behind, then that it speaks truth and beauty as as they as all the past parts of masterful work, from Rembrandt to Michelangelo to NC Wyeth, all of them, Just John Singer Sargent, all those people have left things behind that we’re all still looking at and pursuing. So that’s whether that, whether that happens with us or not. That’s remains to be seen. But we should pursue it with everything we’ve got because of that, because of the possibility of that. So, wow, this has been fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:47

Yes, it has been. I mean, I could 100% listen to you all day. I’m actually a little sad having to end the episode, because it’s like I said, it’s inspiring to hear someone who has so much gratitude and experience and in this career, you know, it’s it makes me wonder too, you know, how it feels like all of us artists kind of have this similar wavelength or frequency that we we kind of understand each other through, because I find that what you mentioned earlier as well about what would you do if you weren’t an artist? That’s something I’ve been meditating on very recently. And I just imagine nothing. I can’t imagine my life without it, and it’s, it’s very comforting to hear you say something similar. Of I mean, you would probably figure it out, of course, because you need to live somehow. You need to make money somehow. But it just feels like this is it right? This isn’t something that you can just choose to no longer do right? As I said, and as you mentioned, this is a calling and not a job, something you can’t just, Okay, I’m not going to listen to the calling anymore. If you don’t listen to the calling anymore, you’re just going to end up very, very depressed and anxious, you know? So I think it’s very comforting as well to hear you say that. So I also wanted to ask you, do you have and I know you’ve given us so many great pieces of advice, but do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

David Griffin: 1:08:38

Well, I certainly know that struggle having gotten married in college, and the responsibility of now supporting a family we we had, we didn’t have children till later, but there’s an added responsibility when someone else is in the picture. So I would say that it’s not an early on. It’s going to be it’s going to be difficult, because you’re going to the time that you need to put in may be restricted, the time that you need to put in to to be able to personally accomplish the things that you want to as an artist. But I think it just it takes time. And I think the 10, 10,000 10,000 hour rule, maybe just the beginning. You know, people say, Well, you need to have it do something 10,000 hours, then you become proficient at it. I’m thinking it’s 110,000 hours, not just 10,000 it’s a lifetime. And I think you have to continue to think about that. This is wherever you. Are in your career, in your artistic pursuits, even if you’ve just started saying, Well, I’m just going to Saturday afternoon. I’ve got some time. I’m just going to start a painting. Wonderful. That’s the best place to start. Start when you want to start and start with what you have. Start wherever you are. You’re going to want to pursue and look at and and and digest and absorb as much information. Reason going to museums and talking to other art you’re going to you’re going to benefit by all of that. But deep down, you’ve got to be aware that time in, time in the studio, time on location, time with a brush on you in your hand, time on the piano, time at the top writer. I mean, excuse me, at the computer typing writing theory or writing, writing a story. It’s just going to take time and you you can’t. I would say it’s easily. It’s probably easy to, very easily to get discouraged, because you’re not going to see maybe the results you want to at first, you’ve just got to, you’ve got to put it in your mind that this is a, if you can put it, is it, it’s a lifelong pursuit, and that’s the only real there’s no easy way to do it. The path is not is not paved on a flat road for you, you don’t want it to be you don’t want a smooth path. That you’re not going to learn on a smooth path. What you’re going to learn is when it gets a little rough. So I’m not sure that answers the question. My daughter’s an artist, and I had to have the talk with her, one and about the birds and the bees. It was the conversation about being an artist, and I said, if you want to pursue this, that you have to, you have to listen to that whisper. You’ve got to listen to that and be, be, be aware of that. If you want to do it, it’s going to take time, and it’s going to be and it’s going to be struggles. There are going to be struggles. There’s going to be people that that don’t like what you do, and consequently don’t translate, try not to translate. They don’t care for your work, meaning they don’t care for you. That those are two different things and don’t connect them, because they’re and we’re all, we all have all connected those. Laura doesn’t like that painting. She doesn’t like me. That’s that’s not true. But we have to learn how to get around that and pursue that in a, in a, in a in an adult way, in a mature way, and say, This is what I have to do, and this is and I had to put in time, and I may have to sacrifice some time to do this, to be good at anything, you’re going to have to put some time in. So I would say, and I would also say that, and I’m going to this is probably going to ruffle some feathers, but I think talent is overrated. I think I heard Chuck Close interviewed one day. Chuck Close is, was a wonderful painter did some, I mean, some really innovative things with the with the portrait, in the way he pursued that. I mean, really innovative novel, almost maybe was novel, probably is novel. But what he said was, talent is overrated. Hard work. Is what it is. What comes down to is just putting the time in and putting the work in. And you’re going to hear that over and over and ad nauseam. You’re going to hear it to you can’t stand it anymore. It’s hard work. It’s just going to have to. You’re going to pursue this. You’re not going to you may not see the rewards. You may certainly may not see a financial gain in it immediately. But if the if the calling is honest and it’s in it and it is authentic, then if you were to say, well, I can’t do this anymore. I got to go do something else. There’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing wrong with supporting your art in other with other vocations. That’s we’ve all had to do it. Every one of us have had to do this. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But if it’s an honest calling, you’re going to be looking for ways to come back to the studio. You you’re going to be looking for ways to get on the piano. You’re going to be get back to the guitar. You’re going to be look. You’re going to do, what you’re going to find out is, no, I can’t go to dinner tonight. Why? Well, I’ve, I’ve got to go in the studio, and I’ve got something on my heart that I have GET OUT OF MY I’ve got to get it out of my head and onto some piece of paper or on the canvas or something. And you’re going to that’s going to hit you one day, and you’re going to say. No, I have to do this other thing. I have to it that sounds like a harsh and almost absolute statement, but I’m not. If you’re really called to be an artist and you’re going to there are going to be times when you say, No, I can’t do I have to go into the studio. I’ve got to go out on location. I got to go sit out the piano. I’ve got to do something. This is I have to do this. And I think when that happens, then you’re going to realize, then, you know, sorry, you just got bit, and it’s and you’re and you you’ve been inoculated, and this is your life. But, you know, Laura, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a very rewarding pursuit. And and the rewards are like putting bread on the water. It comes back to you multiplied and over and over and over again, to the point that you think, what have I done to deserve this blessing, and so that’s that, that is why you pursue it. I mean, not for the gain, but for the knowledge that you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing. You’re doing you’re doing it for the right reason. And if you are to be an artist, and I will say this art, art, or creative pursuit in any area, is awfully good, and that’s a that’s a sidebar, but I’ve saved a lot of money and not having to pay a therapist by being in the studio the Art, my art has, has, has allowed me to cure up a lot of mental problems. It’s great therapy, if nothing else, it’s great therapy.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:50

Yes, it’s very cathartic, for sure, it is.

David Griffin: 1:16:53

It will uncover who you are, and it’ll, and it will uncover what kind of mood you’re in. It’ll, it’ll, whether you want it to or not, it’s gonna, it’ll show up. And now you might have to correct it, or maybe you don’t want to correct it, but it’s gonna, your emotions are going to show up if you allow them to anyway. That’s, I’d encourage anybody that wants to be an artist to pursue it at any level, because I don’t think you’re going to ever be I mean, there are disappointments, but I think it’s, it’s a satisfying pursuit, and it and it is worth the effort, it is worth the time, and probably, and to be honest, it’s worth the struggle and the suffering. It is it is it is for me,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:39

yes, I think, I think a lot of artists definitely agree that despite its roller coaster sort of feeling where, you know, some months you sell, other months you don’t, or some months you feel like you’re on a roll and you’re painting, painting, painting, and other times it’s a bit of a dry spell. I think many artists have told me I wouldn’t change this for the world. I would still choose this career no matter what. And I find that it also has something and it feels kind of mystical, if you really think about it, which is, there’s an aspect of being an artist where you know you paint for yourself, or you paint these things that matter to you, or this truth that you have within you, and then you share it right, whether it’s social media, or you go and you apply to an exhibition, a competition, anything, and suddenly you know if your work really resonates with others, You are now found in the midst of other artists and collectors and galleries who might also think, wow, like, we want more of this. And then this is where that mystical part comes in, which is authentic work. Once it’s put out there, and you have the bravery to put it out there, it feels like it kind of creates a bit of like this, like you said, like these blessings that come in of like now I’m selling my work. Now suddenly i I’m working with a gallery, or I have a collector who’s really enthusiastic and is purchasing, you know, many of my works. Or or you meet other people, and then that connects you to other collectors, other museums, galleries, etc, who you know. It becomes kind of like the the chaos theory, where the flapping of the butterfly’s wing causes a storm on the other side of the Earth, type of situation. And your work is that butterfly you know?

David Griffin: 1:19:40

Yes, what a wonderful that’s a wonderful description of what we all should pursue. Because we don’t know, we probably will never, ever know that the complete result of what we’ve done, what we are doing, how that affects everybody. But I. Even if it just affects one person, even if it just if the only person it affects is us, if we’re the only, if we’re the only benefactor, then that from that result that’s going to be energy to continue to pursue it, which eventually you’re going to connect, if you haven’t already, it’s going to connect with somebody, and that’s and the world is much smaller than we want to believe it is, especially in today’s world. You can put an image out there, and somebody in Asia will see it. I mean, I can, I can be in love of Texas and put something on the internet, and somebody on the moon would see it, and maybe it’s an encouragement to them. Maybe they’re at a maybe they’re at a low point, and they think, Well, I just need to see something that that encourages me to keep doing this. If that’s the only response and only result, then it’s ever been worth the effort, because then you’ve because that’s going to be, that’s going to be passed on from them, and then on, and so it’s just multiplied on down the road. And so, I mean, we have to live, we have to eat, we have to we have, we need the commerce. We need the economy of the art world to be good. But, and we all have that, we all have to have that that’s not anything that can’t be ignored. And hopefully, if you’re an artist, at some point it gets easier to pursue the financial or to we withstand the roller coaster ride of the financial part of this, because there is that, and it’s, and I don’t know that it even matters where in your career you are. I think there it’s still, we just keep paying the ticket to get on the roller coaster, and we just keep and that’s, you know, and like, I heard somebody say, I like going up and I like going down. I just, I like the ride. And I think that’s one thing that I would say, is I’ve really enjoyed this ride. This has been a this has been a blessing. This ride has been a blessing. And I don’t want to get off the roller coaster, up or down. I don’t want to get off. I want to stay on it. So with that in mind, I hope this encourages people. If you know, if they if they don’t like what I say, then they probably should tell me, and I’ll take that as a as a compliment, in a way. But we all need to be encouraging each other to pursue what we think is is beautiful and what’s truthful, and that that makes the world a better place, makes us better people. And that’s that’s a that’s an admirable pursuit in itself. Rich people absolutely be joyful in kind and compassionate, and maybe somebody’s work will do that. For you, I know it’s done it for me. It’s changed my mind about things. It’s opened my mind up about a lot of things that if I hadn’t encountered that piece of music or that literature or that painting or that sculpture that I would have been my my life would have been less than, probably than than it is. So I’m grateful for that. So hopefully we can all be part of that bigger picture and and contributing in our own way to do that with excellence and a smile on your face, if you can do it, if you put a smile on your face,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:50

yes, yeah, I think for sure, with a smile on one’s face. Because, you know, like you said, despite the difficulties that having this career compose. It’s still amazing. You know, it’s still something worth waking up in the morning to do every single day.

David Griffin: 1:24:09

Well, it’ll be fun to see, yeah, and it’ll be fun to see how, when you move to Stockholm, if your work changes, if you I suspect you’re going to be influenced differently and those things, or that’s exciting to to, to pursue a little bit of an uncertainty, to pursue a mystery and and and the excitement of that mystery. So, so when I interview you in about however many months it is away, then you’ll be able to tell me some really encouraging things about what the move has done for your work and how that’s how the move has been a good move, and it’s in fulfilling. And and this will be fun to be the pot. You’re going to continue the podcast. Are you not?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:25:07

Yes, of course, yeah, it continues.

David Griffin: 1:25:12

Well, it’ll be interesting. Are you going to learn the language in Sweden?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:25:17

Is it Swedish? Swedish? Yes, actually, I’m learning it. Now you’re learning some, okay, good, yeah. Because, I mean, I think if you really want to understand a culture and understand people, you have to, and especially if you’re moving there, you have to learn the language, yeah, because so much of culture and the way people think and perceive the world around them is so dependent on language that learning a new language in itself is also it really broadens your mind. And if anything, the one of the things that has truly affected my art and my expression has been learning other languages. Yeah, so it’s it’s fascinating, and you will definitely hear all about it when you interview me, well,

David Griffin: 1:26:02

I’ll look forward to that, and I’ll have some really tough questions. I’m going to throw some really hard

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:07

I’m excited. I love difficult questions.

David Griffin: 1:26:10

This is going to give me some time to really think up a difficult question that’s not yes or no,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:20

open ended. And actually, I wanted to ask you something before you go, which is, if you have any upcoming shows or workshops or fun stuff that’s happening that you would like to tell us about,

David Griffin: 1:26:33

sure, well beyond the art of wandering journey in been I’m excited about being in the course show again. This is my 15th year, and it, it’s a it’s a wonderful venue with the other artists and getting to speak to people interested in art and and there’s 1000 people there one night to do one thing. Well, they do one thing, they can eat and drink, but they’re there to buy art. So you’re you’ve got a captive audience of people that that want to learn the language and want to know about the work, and want to know about the artist, and are genuinely interested. And then maybe you’ll sell something along the way, and that’ll be a benefit too. So we have that that opens. I said the seventh. I think the opening is January the eighth, and it runs through the month. And then I’ve got a small show in Mount Carmel, Utah, with the plein air painters of America, Papa plein air painters of America, the Papa group that I’m part of now, and that’s in May. And then I’ll have the idol George quest for the West show that’s in Indianapolis, and that’ll be in September, and that will be enough for me. That’s enough. And along the way, we’re going to keep talking to people like you, finding out what the art world is really doing and and where we can plug into things. And as will happen with you, it’ll probably happen with me. I’ll have a door to open. I’ll have some opportunities along the way to that that’s exciting too. Just I’ve got enough to do. I have enough to do from the next couple of years, I’ve got my days are full, but that doesn’t mean that I won’t add to it, and so that’s what I’m pursuing. And I look forward to connecting with new people, new friends, and along the way that we can all share this, share this conversation with not monolog dialog, and we can, we can learn from each other and be better at what we do.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:47

So do you mind telling us what your website is and your social media galleries?

David Griffin: 1:28:53

Well, my website is David Griffin studio.com in its fine art fine art studio. What is Faso stand

Laura Arango Baier: 1:29:03

for? Yeah, fine art studios online.

David Griffin: 1:29:08

That’s I’m not very good at that. I’m going to get better at posting the most current work. But my my most current work is on my Instagram page, and that is David R Griffin, and that’s I’ve tried to post weekly on that, and that’s probably the place, if someone’s interested or they want to communicate, that’s the best way. And I’m changing my Well, I’m not changing. I’m adding to my email. I’m going to start using David Griffin studio@gmail.com I think more. And then I’m going to another URL that I’m going to introduce in the new year. So there’ll be some I’ll completely confuse people how to get a hold of me. But if they, if they look on the website. And get my contact information that that if they want to add to the conversation, which I would love for them to do, then they can contact me that way. And if they’re ever in Dallas and they want to come by the studio, all they had to do is call me. I’d love to I love people to come to the studio and we can talk about things that, at least that matter to some of us, maybe more of it,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:30:23

absolutely well. Thank you so much, David for your absolutely amazing, inspiring conversation. I will be thinking about this for many years. I think

David Griffin: 1:30:37

that’s that you never know how these things turn out. My expectation was pretty high, but but you’ve exceeded any expectation I had, and it’s much better than I ever thought it could be, especially anything that I’m involved in. But this has been a blessing, and I thank you for thinking of me, including me in this, because I know of the other people that you’ve interviewed, and I feel very honored to be included in that group of wonderful artists. It’s a it’s a nice neighborhood to live in. It is. It is very much so. And I’ll keep my grass cut and I’ll keep my yard clean so I can stay in the neighborhood,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:16

yes, of course, and we’ll keep in touch. Good.

David Griffin: 1:31:20

Thank you, Laura, of course, okay.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:23

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with realist oil painter and former radiologist Carl Bretzky, who shares his journey from growing up interested in art and photography, through a medical career in interventional radiology, to becoming a full-time artist in 2016. He explains how studying with Joe Paquet and participating in plein air events around the country shaped his love for landscape, urban scenes, and especially nocturnes, which he believes are often easier and faster to paint than daytime scenes due to their homogeneous darks and clear value transitions. Carl discusses his use of the rule of thirds and his approach to composition, often reimagining scenes—like his piece Hotel Laguna Nocturne—in the studio to adjust skies, colors, and clouds for stronger visual impact. Carl also tells us about his use of the prismatic palette, rooted in the teachings of Frank Vincent DuMond, and how understanding prismatic color shifts and subtle gradations helps create convincing light, atmosphere, and distance. Finally, Carl offers advice on building an art career through instruction, plein air competitions, galleries, networking, and social media, emphasizing saying yes to opportunities, maintaining an active studio practice, and cultivating community with other artists.

Carl’s FASO site:
carlbretzke.com

Carl’s Social Media:
instagram.com/carlbretzkeart

facebook.com/carl.bretzke.3

Carl’s Videos:
Instructional Videos

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Transcript:

Carl Bretzke: 0:00

Decided that I’m just going to go about trying to learn, and as I go, if someone offers me to some opportunity, I wasn’t going to say no. So my goal is to always say yes to things, and I’ve kind of looked at everything that way. Teaching, you know, you definitely get to be a better artist by teaching, because you in order to tell someone else, you better know what you’re talking about, and so all that effort makes you a better painter. In the end,

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with realist oil painter and former radiologist Karl bretzky, who shares his journey from growing up interested in art and photography through a medical career in interventional radiology to becoming a full time artist in 2016 he explains how studying with Joe Paquette and participating in plein air events around the country shaped his love for landscape, urban scenes, and especially nocturnes, which he believes are often easier and faster to paint than daytime scenes due to their homogeneous darks and clear value transitions. Carl discusses his use of the rule of thirds and his approach to composition, often reimagining scenes like in his piece, hotel Laguna Nocturne in the studio to adjust skies colors and clouds for stronger visual impact. Carl also tells us about his use of the prismatic palette rooted in the teachings of Frank Vincent du monde, and how understanding prismatic color shifts and subtle gradations helps create convincing light, atmosphere and distance. Finally, Carl offers advice on building an art career through instruction, plein air, competitions, galleries, networking and social media, emphasizing saying yes to opportunities, maintaining an active studio practice and cultivating community with other artists. Welcome Carl to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Carl Bretzke: 2:06

Good. Thank you. Laura, great.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:09

I’m so excited to have you because I think your work is so beautifully made, and it is so like the nuance and the color and the shifts in everything it’s so it’s delicious to look at. It makes you feel like you’re actually at the location. So I’m excited to have you. Yes, of course, you’re very welcome. And I’m especially interested in your nocturnes, because I’m very much a lover of nocturnes, and it’s not so often then you run into a plein air artist, or planner painter, or painters in general, who do very many nocturnes, probably because it can be kind of scary to some people to explore that, but I think

Carl Bretzke: 2:51

people don’t practice very often so, or they weren’t trained that way. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:57

And also I think it’s intimidating to attempt it, because I think a lot of people have these incorrect notions about how to paint a Nocturne and what it entails compared to daytime painting. But we can dive into that a little bit after you tell us about who you are and what you do.

Carl Bretzke: 3:17

So I guess I mean, right now I describe myself as a realist oil painter. But my background goes back. So I was born and raised in a small town in Minnesota, and high school was a lot about art for me. I was also into photography back then, so when I got to college, all my fun classes were art classes, and then I kind of fit those in between science classes. For some reason, everyone thinks they need to take science classes, which I did. And at some point, a buddy of mine said, you know, you’re one class away from being pre med, so why don’t you do that? And I said, Okay, I’ll do that. And once you get started in the medicine realm, it just kind of all keeps feeding into each other, and you don’t have to think too much about it once you decide you want to do it. So I went into medicine 20 years ago. My wife, who is an artist, she was taking classes from Joe Paquette in the Minneapolis, St Paul area. And I don’t know if you know Joe, but he’s a kind of one of the early plein air painters of America, artists, and great teacher. And I started taking classes from him 20 years ago. I did it for 12 years, studio painting, plein air painting, which was his specialty, and figure drawing. And I did that for 12 years. And then about that time, I started doing plein air events around the country that started in 2010 and I’ve done anywhere from, I suppose, four to seven or four to eight events a year. And. And I did that even when I was working as a physician. But then in 2016 I quit my I retired from medicine, and I went full time into art. And so now, every day, I get up and I go to the studio and enjoy myself that, you know, people say, is art fun? Not sure it’s fun, but it’s consuming. For me, it’s all consuming. So I get here and I start painting, and three hours go by and I’m a happy person,

Laura Arango Baier: 5:32

yes, yeah. I mean, it’s definitely a fulfilling, almost a obsessive thing, trying to complete something or figure something out within a painting. Yes, it’s like a puzzle that, you know, you can’t pull yourself away from sometimes. Yeah, you

Carl Bretzke: 5:52

know, I haven’t thought of it like that, but that’s exactly what it feels like to me. It’s like, I want to try to really create real atmosphere and see, like, where the sun comes up, make that way brighter than everything else. And how can I do that? How can I trick the viewers mind into thinking that looks real? And to me, that’s that’s a kind of a fun puzzle, like you said.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:15

So, yes, yeah. And so much of it is also, you know, creating, like you just said, the illusion of something. And since you know, our range of values is so limited with paint compared to reality, there’s so much you know, like sorcery and tricks that have to happen in order to recreate something that is actually not easy to recreate on a flat surface with the limited range that we have. So yeah, it’s a fun thing.

Carl Bretzke: 6:46

Sorry, light and pigment are such different things, and you’re trying to create light with pigments. So yeah, that’s yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:56

It is yeah, and it’s a yes, recreating light that’s that’s a huge challenge, and especially if you’re painting, you know Plein Air, which is what you do, and landscape. Why did you decide that landscape and plein air were going to be your, your like favorite thing to paint. How did you land on that?

Carl Bretzke: 7:23

That goes back to the way I was taught. This is through Joe Paquette. He was a landscape painter, plein air painter, and before that, when I was in college, I had done more edgy kind of modern realist things, and I did a lot of graphite drawing back then, and so it was just what had presented itself, was painting with Joe outside or whatever, and by default, became nature. Although more recently, even back then, I liked doing urban things also. So really, any scene, I don’t want to be pigeonholed into being a landscape painter or a Nocturne painter. I really have a kind of a diverse interest in what I want to paint. And I’m trying to think of why that was, and I’m thinking back to when I used to do photography for our high school yearbook and things like that. I was always looking for an interesting image, and so that could be anything. And so I kind of paint anything,

Laura Arango Baier: 8:26

yeah, yeah. And I can totally see that. I feel like the way that you compose your images as well is kind of like the way that you would want to compose a photo as well. It like fits for both categories, which makes sense. You know, rule of thirds, finding a really nice spot for the vanishing point, higher lower, horizon line, type of playing around, which I think photography is a really great sort of playing ground for visual composition. It is.

Carl Bretzke: 8:58

Yeah, glad you said rule of thirds, I use that all the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:04

That’s good. Well, it’s it’s a good one. I think that’s one of the best ones, just for getting a really quick, good composition that really pulls the eye in and gives a sort of balance to an image. Yeah, but yeah, it depends on the story you’re telling as well with the work, but yes,

Carl Bretzke: 9:22

I find it really helpful for those that don’t know rule of thirds is you try to put your focal point somewhere in the outer thirds or the upper lower thirds, but not in the middle, not too far to the edge. And when I do Nocturne scenes, I really use that because, like, let’s say you see a gas station lit up at night by lights overhead. Both people just paint the gas station in the right spot, but then they don’t realize that means the lights now are going to be on the edge of the picture, because they’re so much higher. So I’m looking at the most you know, the highest contrast area, which is actually. Lights, and I will place them in the upper third or whatever, and then shrink everything else down as needed to fit into the painting. So it’s something I use a lot, actually,

Laura Arango Baier: 10:13

yeah, yeah. And that’s another really interesting thing is kind of sort like, and I think maybe photography helps with this as well, is imagining the finished piece before actually doing it. Because I think it’s very easy to get excited about a certain scene or certain image, and then, like you said, you get to the part that’s actually, you know, one of the important pieces of the painting, which is light, and you realize, oh, oh oh no. I need to shift everything around, maybe start over, add more Canvas somehow, if you can. And then, you know, you’re kind of Oh, in the junk, in a bit of a pickle, as I like to say. So it’s better to have that, you know, all set up and ready. And I actually did want to ask you, too, since you mentioned nighttime painting of a gas station. When did you decide I want to tackle Nocturnes? Was that part of your learning with with Joe? Or was that something that you decided? Hmm, I really like the way these clouds look at night.

Carl Bretzke: 11:15

I actually have a specific story about it, because I was in Carmel for the Carmel art festival plenary event. That was the first one I had ever done. And I was in 2010 and we were looking at galleries around town. And I walked into one of the main galleries, and there was a painting sitting on the floor, a big one, and I and it looked like it was just a black canvas, like a modern art black canvas or something. And I walked over to it, and the owner of the gallery came over and said, let me show you this. And he picked it up, put it in the light, and it was a beautiful Nocturne. All the color comes alive. Then in the light it ended up. It ended up. It was a Charles Rollo Peters, who’s a very famous Nocturne painter from, I’m guessing, 1800s or early 1900s but at that point, I said, I’m going to try to do that in the plenary event. And I ended up doing a Nocturne painting the best I could at the time, because I really hadn’t been trained in it, and I liked out. And I said, Okay, from now on, every plenary event I do at least one Nocturne painting, and I’ve done that now for let’s say I was 2010 so 25 or 15 years, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:27

yeah, that’s a good amount of time to be practicing, yeah,

Carl Bretzke: 12:32

but you learn a lot along the way, that’s for sure.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:35

I can imagine. And then what would you say is the biggest difference between painting a daytime painting and a Nocturne.

Carl Bretzke: 12:46

So you and I talked about this a little earlier, Laura, but to me, if I had students that were just starting out, I think I would start them with nocturnes, because they’re actually I find to be easier and quicker than doing a daytime painting. Not that you shouldn’t learn how to do a daytime painting. Certainly should. But the nice thing about a Nocturne is that most the time, the darkness surrounding your focal point is pretty homogeneous, and so if you just draw where you’re going to put your main structures in a little outline. You can take dark pigment and just kind of cover the rest of the painting with dark and you’re halfway done painting your painting, and then you go back, and you start noodling, noodling all the illuminated parts of it. And when you’re doing that, it’s easier, because it’s artificial light, and artificial light drops off quickly. As you move away from the light source, you can really see nice gradations of value. And at the same time as that value drops off, there’s a color change, and I teach this in my workshops, but it’s a prismatic color change, which I don’t know if we’ll get into today, but just keep in mind that as light drops off, color will change. And so those are fun things to see. You see those in a Nocturne painting, and you learn a lot about transitioning from one color to another and from one value to another. Then you go out in the daytime with the bright sunshine and the ground plane may all look the same color and value, but in fact, now that you know that it should change from right to left, if the sun’s on the right, you can make a subtle shift in your value and a subtle shift in your color, which would have been hard To see, I think, for beginning painter, if you just started doing bright daytime scenes. So I don’t make sense, but that’s how I pick and I if I need a fast painting, I’ll do a nectar, because I can get it done pretty quickly.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:55

Yes, and and beautifully as well, which is the other important thing? Um. And I think that’s so cool. I never considered moonlight as artificial light, because it’s just a reflected light from the sun. So it isn’t itself the light source, which I think is very interesting to think of it though, because it’s it does have, because it’s so limited in its strength, right? Unlike the sun, it is definitely much more obvious to see those nuances. And I think the best example of a daytime painter who really caught those nuances in, you know, like old painter Vermeer, you can definitely see it in the back walls of his paintings, that very, extremely subtle shift, yes, yes, yes, which is like, Ah, of course. I mean, the same thing does have to happen with the sun, especially, like you said, when it’s moving from one direction to another, the light, I mean, has to taper off gently, right? Because we are in a giant sphere. So it makes sense. Oh, man. But then I want to ask you a bit more about your process, like when you painted hotel Laguna your Nocturne.

Carl Bretzke: 16:07

All right, so the the one you’re referring to, you can probably put it up in the after we get done. But hotel Laguna Nocturne was one I just did in the studio. In the last month or so I’d come back from Laguna plein air Invitational, which was in October, and I had done a painting of it then, and I wanted to redo it with a whole different sky and knowing what I’d learned from that plein air piece. And so I think I ended up with a better painting than the original plein air one, but it was just, it’s fun to think about how I wanted to change things from the original painting. I added a little more color than was what I really saw, and the cloud cover was different from when I painted it, so I wanted to put in a lot more clouds in this one. So it was interesting painting it because a Nocturne, you can really be deceived as far as how much color you are or are not putting in things. And if you look at the clouds in that painting, they look gray. But in fact, that’s got so much brown and red and yellow in it. But for some reason, against this dark background, blue, it reads as more of a gray.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:27

But yeah, I can see that I actually also would have thought orange, but I mean, Brown is orange, so

Carl Bretzke: 17:36

yeah, yeah. And I will sometimes mix paint on my palette and think, Okay, that’s a color, but you never know till you actually put it on your canvas. See it in next to everything else. So that’s kind of how I go about my final touches for like, a Nocturne painting. I just need to see how it looks on the canvas next to everything.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:57

Yeah, that makes sense. And actually, now that we’re on the topic of color. I do want to know a little bit more about your, you know, the prismatic palette approach to color and light. Can you explain a little bit what that is?

Carl Bretzke: 18:10

Yeah, it’s probably, I think people think of it as more complicated than it probably is. But back in the late 1800s Frank Vincent Dumond, I think he was credited with coming up with a prismatic palette. But if you think actually, he had a quote. He said, silently glowing over this entire landscape is a rainbow. You must learn to see it. It is always there. And he is talking about, remember, earlier I’d mentioned, as light drops off, it changes color? Well, it changes color for a reason, scientifically, and I won’t go into that, but essentially, things usually move in a prismatic sequence, which is the sequence of color in a rainbow. So you go violet, blue, green, yellow, orange, red, right? Yeah. So that’s a prismatic sequence, and you start seeing that over and over again in your landscape paintings. As you move into the distance, you lose yellow, move more towards orange and towards red, also the just the distant objects become bluer because you have blue scattered light between you and the distant objects from scattering in the atmosphere. And so it just makes sense, if you’re going to put your colors out on your palette, you put them in the sequence of a rainbow. So that’s what a prismatic palette is. I will, I will lay out my warm colors from yellow CAD, yellow light CAD, Yellow, Cad, Scarlet, CAD, red. Alizarin, so they go from light to dark, but they also move prismatically. And then I’ll put my blues out, manganese cobalt, ultramarine blue, and then a violet. And that also is a prismatic color shift, and goes from lighter to darker. So that’s what a prismatic palette is. I learned it from Joe Paquet, and he learned it from John Osborne, who learned it from Frank Mason, who learned it from Frank Vincent Dumon. And there’s been, you know, 1000s of offshoots of other people doing it since then, and the original prismatic palette was laying it out in the sequence of rainbow. But then he also did strings, adding white to each of those colors to lighten them as you move out to one side, we I don’t do that.

Laura Arango Baier: 20:32

Yeah, I think that’s something that’s helpful at first, if you’re like a beginner at it, because when I was in school, I definitely I had to do strings, and I had to lay out my palette in a similar way, except it was more like, it was definitely from lighter value to darker value. And then within them it would be like, Okay, this is your dark red, dark orange, and then like your neutral or like your black. So, but the difference is, of course, I had a limited palette instead of, you know, like a warm yellow, cool yellow, warm red, cool red, type of situation that some people also like to do when they sort their palettes.

Carl Bretzke: 21:10

Um, yeah, I like the idea of a limited palette. It’s just too late for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:16

You’ve tasted the rainbow. I know, yeah, yeah, I can understand that. I think once you know how to navigate within any you know range of colors that you’ve chosen, I think it’s, it’s it becomes just so much easier to manage around something. But I think the nice thing about limited palette is the portability of it. I don’t have to carry a bunch of different paint tubes. I just carry them in four. Yeah, yeah, which is very pleasant. But of course, the drawback is you have to, if you want to get a specific mixture, you have to make it yourself. So there’s pros and cons to that. There is a lot of mixing that still happens with an extended palette. But when you start out with only four and you have to make the entire breadth of colors, it’s a little harder, yeah, especially going to specific orange, jeez.

Carl Bretzke: 22:12

I mean, people say that that gives you color harmony, because there’s a little of everything and everything. But even with a prismatic palette, I don’t go from cat yellow light to orange abruptly. There’s usually a mixture in there, so there’s always a blending going from one color to another.

Laura Arango Baier: 22:30

So yeah, yeah, that’s that rule that you learn pretty quickly when you start mixing color, which is how to not make mud, right? Mud is, uh, mud can be nice if you use it wisely, but it can also detract you from painting. Yeah, yeah, but you were gonna say something about mud, muddy, I was gonna

Carl Bretzke: 22:59

say, I use mud in a Nocturne, pretty commonly, but I intentionally able to do it.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:07

Yes, yeah. I mean, what we consider mud, I guess, is so dependent, like how you’re saying earlier about the colors around it anyway, that’s it can become a very beautiful gray, if you know how to manage mud, yeah,

Carl Bretzke: 23:22

if you’re looking great, exactly the one place where I see people make mud and they don’t want it is when they try to paint sunset quickly. It’s just there. It just changes so fast. And you keep second guessing what you should put down. Pretty soon you’ve got cools and warms mixed together, and then you get the mud.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:44

Yes, oh, that’s painful. That’s painful. Yeah, that’s one of those things that you learn over time is you need to have like, 20 brushes and make sure that they don’t blend too much if you want to keep a clean color unless, of course, you have that intentional desire to, okay, I need to mix these two. And I could just use this one brush and work around it. But keeping a clean brush, I think, is one of those underrated things.

Carl Bretzke: 24:13

I’m not good at it. But yes, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 24:18

I mean, again, since painting is really just an open ended thing. We have these guidelines that we set just to help, you know, manage the medium, because oil painting can be a bit of a tricky medium, probably not as tricky as watercolor, in my opinion, but it can be tricky. And how, you know, at first it’s easy to fight with the medium. You know, you’re fighting with the oil paint. It’s like, it’s not doing what I want. So that’s like, Yeah, well, you have to learn to, you know, move around it in a way. And one of those ways that I remember learning was keeping my brushes very clean. If I’m painting and I’m going to pick up the color again, I need to wipe the brush and then pick it up again. Yeah. Yeah, it’s those little tidbits. Oh, man. But, and then I wanted to ask you a little bit more too about your process, like, from you know, the very beginning of, you know, I’m looking for a specific, you know, site that I want to paint, or, Oh, I’m trying to find the light hitting a particular manner that I want to paint. What is that process like from beginning to end for you when you’re making a painting?

Carl Bretzke: 25:29

So I guess it would be similar to someone looking for a photograph that they want to shoot. I if I’m at an event, I’ll drive around until I see some composition that looks interesting to me. And I think most people that do that know that you can spend way too much time doing that. And I’ll never forget, I was at Lighthouse Plein Air, which is in Jupiter beach, and I was meeting up with Jason sakran and Hannah Lucero. What was his first name? Anyway, they were painting already, and I was looking for a painting right where they were, and I could not find anything. And I came back 30 minutes later, and they said, Carl, you haven’t started painting. And then Andrew Lucero said, Carl, just paint. So I set up right there and I started painting, and ended up with a good painting. But I think you can spend too much time looking so it’s more important how you paint something. Try to find something in your own backyard, and something you like if you if I do happen to come across like, just the perfect scene and I can paint it. That’s the That’s the ultimate but you don’t always find the perfect scene.

Laura Arango Baier: 26:47

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Carl Bretzke: 29:07

So again, I think if I’m trying to speak generally to an audience, I would say that the years I spent learning from somebody were very helpful. And again, it was mostly Joe Paquette, but I’ve done lots of workshops with other people, and St Paul Art Academy, which is in was local, learned a little bit about classical painting there. So anytime you can get instruction, I would do that. That was very helpful for me. But I think one thing that a lot of people don’t know, and I think it’s true is that plein air painting is great for studio painting, and the more that I can paint outdoors from life or indoors from life, or whatever, the better my paintings are going to be if I’m using photo reference. So that’s one of the reasons I do the plein air event. Yes, I think it makes me a better painter. And the other thing it does for me is that, you know, if you go somewhere for four days to paint, or five days and you’re in a competition, you try really hard because you don’t want to be embarrassed, and you end up doing two, three paintings a day. So at the end of the week, I’ll have 10 paintings done. They have a big sale that they’ve been advertising for all year and and then they have prize money. So they’re great things to do. By the time you’re done, you’ll have done a lot of paintings in a week. And then try to compare that to how many paintings you finished in your studio this week. It’s like maybe one at the most. So the volume of stuff you get done in the plenary event, I think, is very helpful for improving,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:50

yes, and that’s a really great point, because, of course, I mean, how much you practice right is going to influence how good you get, especially intentional practicing. I know a lot of people talk about the 10,000 hour rule, but it’s more like 10,000 intentional hours. I mean, you can’t sit and paint the same thing over and over again without if you’re not paying attention to it and not actually learning from it, you’re not really moving forward very much, not as much as you could. You know,

Carl Bretzke: 31:23

I think the learning part you might get from other people, but you may not see yourself. So, you know, there’s certainly people who do the same painting over and over because it was successful. But if you want to move forward, you need someone to say, hey, paint something else. Or, why don’t you try this in your painting? And I’ve had that, luckily, my wife’s an artist, so I get lots of advice.

Laura Arango Baier: 31:49

Yeah, that’s the nice part about having an artist, spouse or partner, is getting that trusting their vision as well, to like, tell like, yeah, I see your potential. You could totally try this and you’ll do great. You know,

Carl Bretzke: 32:06

I’ve been surprised. Actually, people who aren’t painters will come in and if I ask them what they think, they have an opinion, and they might be right, just because it’s a fresh set of eyes. So I do like other people around looking at my art,

Laura Arango Baier: 32:22

yeah, and that’s something that’s very underrated. I because I of course, being an artist, knowing other artists, we tend to be hermits. We tend to like to hide away, and then we get too much in our heads, and we don’t realize how underrated and how amazing and useful it is to get out of our shell and talk to another person and show them our work. It takes the level, oh yeah.

Carl Bretzke: 32:48

Sometimes it’s not always negative. Sometimes they see something you did that they like, Oh, that’s really good. You remember that?

Laura Arango Baier: 32:56

Yeah, I was well, and that ties into what I was gonna say about you know, it’s a little bit of a vulnerable thing to show your work, because you feel like, Oh no, they’re gonna judge me. And it’s very easy to attach our self worth to our paintings when reality, you know, it’s a skill you improve at it. It’s always getting better. Hopefully, if you’re, you know, putting the work so if anything, it’s it’s even more useful to help you move forward as an artist, to show it to someone, especially someone you can trust to be kind and say, you know, what needs to be said in a way that isn’t going to be like a slap in the face, you know, oh, man. And I wanted to ask you, because I’m so curious. Since you you were a radiologist, specifically, would you say that you had some transferable skills that you gained from studying radiology that helped you with painting.

Carl Bretzke: 33:49

Yeah, I mean, of all the medical specialties, I guess radiology is a very visual specialty, so and my specifically, I did interventional radiology, which is surgical procedures under X ray guidance. So I’m looking at a monitor, working on someone through small incisions and catheters and trying to weave my way through the body. And so I’m looking at two dimensions, trying to imagine three dimensions. And so now it’s three dimensions in art, looking at three dimensions, trying to put it down in two dimensions. So whether that really helps me, I don’t know, but I thought it was kind of an interesting corollary. But, yeah, the visual specialty, I guess that part of, part of why I was attracted to radiology as a specialty,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:39

yeah, yeah. And then the other aspect, I think is interesting is, you know, you might see an image in radiology, right? And then think, oh, there’s this mass here. And maybe another person who’s never really been able to tell that nuance apart, they can’t. They don’t see it until you point it out and you really shape it out for them, right? You have a bit more of that practice of nuance with value shifts.

Carl Bretzke: 35:04

That’s right, you learn to inspect very well.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:08

Yes, yes, yeah. Would you say that that’s given, definitely given you an edge when you’re, you know, working on your paintings.

Carl Bretzke: 35:19

But, I mean, it’s fun to think maybe it did, but I was interested in art way before I did medicine. Feel like I’m still using some of those things that I learned before I was in medical school.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:34

Yeah, so maybe it’s even the other way around. Maybe it was, you know, observational thing that helped you with it into radio. Radiology, I think that makes sense, yeah, yeah. And then, of course, you got a lot of practice in radiology to also, you know, see those shifts. And then going back to the painting, where it’s like, yeah, I can see the shifts happening just naturally, which is really awesome, because that’s one of those things that I think is kind of hard to notice when you’re early in you know, learning how to paint and learning to create something realistic is realizing, Oh, what do you mean? The things around me aren’t just one flat tone. No, they’re not

Carl Bretzke: 36:16

how it works. Gradations are really important in art, and it is one of the last things you learn, I think, first and shape and color and perspective and proportion, which is all good. You need all that. But then at the end, at least start thinking about transitions so

Laura Arango Baier: 36:38

and then it makes sense, too, that that would be one of the last things, because so much of the bulk of learning to paint is learning to draw and learning to see value like that. I think those are, like the core, core things, because color is the fun part. That’s like the Yeah, it becomes complicated once you get there, but you can’t make a painting work if your drawing and values aren’t working no matter what color you use. Yeah, you can. You can’t render yourself out of a bad drawing.

Carl Bretzke: 37:12

And you can’t keep throwing color at something without having something to balance at some neutral. The big teaching of piquettes was, you know, you balance color with neutral tones. And so I always try to think about that when I’m painting, not try to do too much color everywhere. Save it for a few spots Exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:34

And I think that’s another, another thing that we were talking about earlier, like the gray, how it can be so underrated. It is the power color booster, in my opinion, because you can have a whole painting that’s just gray or very neutral, and then you start adding those touches of color, and suddenly it’s colorful. Exactly, yes. And then for you, what was it like when you transitioned out of being a physician like, Did you taper off your hours little by little? Or, you know, how was that transition like? And when did you say, oh my gosh, I’m, you know, a full time artist. Now, this is great,

Carl Bretzke: 38:16

yeah, no, so let’s see. 2010 is when I started doing the plenary events. But before that, I’d been taking classes with Joe for almost 10 years, I guess. And I always had, I had a day off each week, and I think I was on call every third or fourth weekend, so I had a lot of weekend time, off, vacation time, and I would always do art. And at the time, my wife would join me. She was an artist also, and so it was easy to do both at the same time. I was able to do my medical career and painting at the same time. But then in 2016 when I quit or when I retired, I take this combat over in it two, two years earlier, I went part time. I job shared with one other radiologist. And so as that two year period, I really hit it hard in the plein air world. And then when I retired, I got my studio and I was able to come here every day and do all the plenary events I wanted. And so it seemed like, I guess, it was fairly gradual in that respect, that I was part time for a couple years, and then finally, full time art.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:35

That’s nice. Yeah, I’ve had so many artists on, and some of them, you know, they have that technique of, okay, I’m going to taper off little by little as I build my career, which is, in my opinion, it can be stressful because, of course, you’re trying to time manage, and I think the time management can be a lot. And I can imagine you, having been in the medical field, how much more stressful it can be, since I feel like medical fields tend to have crazier hours than. The average career depending, of course, and then I’ve had other guests who are like, Yeah, I just cold turkey quit and started. It’s like, oh, that’s scary.

Carl Bretzke: 40:12

I you know, I’m so happy I had a different career earlier, or at least did two things at the same time. I think it made art a little bit easier that there was things I didn’t have to worry about. But part of my career in medicine, you go from one case to another case to another case, and I really learned to compartmentalize those segments of time and you’ve got to totally get out of one mindset to go on and do be effective in the next one. And I think that helps me in art. Think I can put things behind and not think about them while I’m concentrating on what I’m doing. Yeah, at least my wife says I do that. So

Laura Arango Baier: 41:02

I mean it, I’m it’s probably extremely helpful, because there’s nothing worse than being in front of your canvas and you’re thinking, like, Did I take the laundry out?

Carl Bretzke: 41:11

Right? I really get consumed by what I’m doing in the paint when I’m doing a painting, but I did when I was in medicine too, doing a case.

Laura Arango Baier: 41:21

So, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s good, because then you have all of your mental faculties just like focused on on this one thing, yeah, yeah. And, of course, that helps with improving over time at what at your craft, because you’re being extremely intentional and concentrated on it, which is very important. You know, it’s not just pushing paint around. Yeah, this doesn’t help. But, yeah. And then so career wise, I wanted to ask you, because since you did get involved with plein air a bit, you know, within the time that you were still a physician. How has working within, you know, these groups, painting, societies, competitions, exhibitions, how has that helped your career as an artist?

Carl Bretzke: 42:12

Yeah, they all contribute. I mean, I guess I like to think of it as kind of building a brand, more or less, but I’ve let it happen organically. I think I’m not pushing it. Someone told me what. I think it was. Joe said, you know, don’t get out there too early. And by that, I think he means, you know, don’t get ahead of yourself. You know, you got to learn these things first. And so I decided that I’m just going to go about trying to learn, and as I go, if someone offers me to some opportunity, I wasn’t going to say no. So my goal is to always say yes to things. For instance, even this podcast, I knew that if I did it, you know, it takes a little effort, but I’ll probably learn more about how to do it better next time by doing it this time. And I’ve kind of looked at everything that way. Teaching, you know, you definitely get to be a better artist by teaching, because you in order to tell someone else, you better know what you’re talking about. And so I’ll study it, anticipating what kind of questions might come up and so forth and so. All that effort makes you a better painter in the end, or a better presenter, or whatever it is.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:29

Yeah, that’s so true. You know, having having those opportunities presented to you and saying yes to them, yep, that’s that’s where opportunity becomes growth. You know, it’s like growth is knocking at the door in the sense of opportunity. Of course, it isn’t always helpful to say yes to everything if you don’t have a bandwidth, yeah, but for a time, it is very useful to say yes and then start deciding and being a little bit more picky about what you say

Carl Bretzke: 44:00

yes but anyway, it’s really worked well for me to do that, but not everything is offered to you as an opportunity, either, and specifically the plein air events, you’re going to have to pursue those. So the nice thing about the way most of these planner events are set up is that they’re juried events. You send honest images of what you’ve done, and they will decide whether you’re a fit for that event or not. And so that’s something I would recommend. You know, if you’re interested in this plein air world at all, you know, try to get involved in some of the plenary events. There’s a whole range of big and small events in the plenary world. So there’s should be something for almost everybody, and I think it’s a good way to get your name out there. The other surprise, I wasn’t surprising to me, but the Plein Air. Invention, and Eric Rhodes empire of you know, plein air magazine and all that has been very helpful for me and for my my brand. So I thank him for that. But again, say yes and pursue plenary events,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

yeah, yeah. And would you also say that the networking that happens at these events? Would you say that that has also had an effect on your trajectory as an artist,

Carl Bretzke: 45:35

probably, but it certainly has made me happier. I mean, it’s really enjoyable to get to know another group of people. And so this group that does plein air events, it’s like a traveling circus. You know, I say that all the time, so I see these same people over and over again, couple times a year, three times a year, and then online, I’ll see them, and I feel like they’re close, close friends, and that’s fun to have in art, and even if you don’t do the plenary events, I think it’s important to try to find a group of people that do what you do, and you’ll be happy to have one more group in your life.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:17

Yeah, yeah. And that, you know, brings it back again to how I mentioned earlier, the importance of, you know, having other eyes on your work, especially eyes that you respect as well. It isn’t just a random person, it’s someone that you know you can confide in, who maybe has a similar view that’s in the same like genre, right? Like plein air, it is very helpful. It’s very underrated to have that community, right? Yeah, I like it. Yes, yes. And then, what final advice would you give to someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Carl Bretzke: 46:59

Hmm, those are kind of my my points always say to seek, to seek instruction when you can. I’m happy that I have somewhere to go every day to do my art if you’re a full time artist. For some people, that’s in their house, which is fine. I do like that. I have to travel to an office more or less, and there’s other people around, but you can easily do it both ways. And like you said, it’s pretty it can be a solitary thing, so it may not matter to many people.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:41

Yeah. I mean, it’s a bit of a big question, if you think about it, because there are so many things that come into play when you’re an artist, especially a career artist,

Carl Bretzke: 47:52

you haven’t talked about, I’m sorry we haven’t talked about galleries yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:57

Yeah, we can totally mention galleries.

Carl Bretzke: 47:58

I mean, if you do, it is helpful to have galleries, to have somewhere to send your work if you’re not doing a plenary event or if you don’t have any sales out of your studio. So I found that to be very helpful thing. I’ve got about four galleries at any given time, and I guess I could name them, but do I name them?

Laura Arango Baier: 48:22

You can? Yeah, you totally can. Maybe there’s someone out there who lives

Carl Bretzke: 48:26

close by, all right, so grinning gallery. They’re in Sag Harbor, New York, out on Long Island. And then there’s Callaway Fine Art in Washington, DC, Doug Flanders and Associates in Edina, Minnesota, and then the kicker, Nick gallery in downtown Minneapolis. Those are the four currently. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:50

And then, how have you managed? Because, of course, I’ve met artists who work solely with galleries, and oftentimes it’s a bit stressful to send work to each of them. How have you managed that?

Carl Bretzke: 49:04

You become an expert packer and shipper, and I honestly, my half my suiting is set up so I can pack and ship. So save all your old frame boxes, because you’ll need those to ship stuff out. That’s it, yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:26

How do you manage the aspect of like, oh, well, you know, this gallery wants to do a show, and have to send them X number of paintings, and then this other gallery is asking if I want to do a solo show or another show, and they’re asking for X number of paintings. How do you balance out how many like your hours and like being able to, like, send out what paintings where,

Carl Bretzke: 49:45

yeah, no, it can be a difficult if I have a solo show, or two person show or something coming up, I usually I get almost a one year notice so I can start working on pieces. And then a lot of that ends up being a. Mixture of larger studio works, and then I fill in with some plein air pieces that might be left over from one event or another. Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if you can see my studio. I’m just going to rotate, but I I’m not short of paintings right now,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:17

so I’ve got lots of beautiful work, yeah,

Carl Bretzke: 50:21

and I like having them up on the wall just so I can, occasionally I might see something that I want to work on, and I’ll just go over and add paint if I need to. It also keeps my frames nice, not having to pack them up.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:33

Yeah, that’s a that’s a really great point to have your, you know, your paintings displayed like that, and to have the frames as well. And then it’s good that you can have a large breadth of work as well, to be able to be like, Oh, I can send this out to this gallery. I can send this out to that gallery. And that’s one of those things that I think is can vary so much from artist to artist, is how much work you put out, like your speed of working and understanding like, okay, am I fast painter, my slow painter? And then how can I arrange my life around my speed as well? Because if someone’s a fast painter, it’s probably a lot easier to get work out there and sell a bit more. But then, if you’re a slow painter, you have to find other means to, you know, support your income that isn’t just selling paintings, so it’s

Carl Bretzke: 51:25

a bit of a or maybe you can charge more if you’re a slow painter,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:29

not too Yes, exactly, you

Unknown: 51:32

don’t know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:33

yeah, yeah. And again, that’s one of those, like, dependent things, and it’s so person to person, artist to artist. It’s you got to discover it for yourself. Like, for example, I found out I’m actually not. I used to think I was a slow painter. I’m actually not. And that’s kind of posing a bit of a problem for me, because I’m I’m even doubting if oil paint is like the correct medium for me, because I want to keep going and going. But you know, oil paint tends to dry slowly, unless you use dryer.

Carl Bretzke: 52:00

So I went to I graduated from the com, from Colorado University in Boulder, and I had an art teacher out there. He said, Carl, I like your work, but you should take more time. And he was right, and I probably still need to do that, but that’s probably where the plein air world kind of fits for me a little bit

Laura Arango Baier: 52:23

the speed. Yeah, yeah. You have to, you have to paint so fast to catch all the stuff out there. The sun moves so quickly across the sky. Or rather, we, we spin very quickly the earth. So, you know, that poses a problem if you’re not a fast painter. But yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. And then do you have any upcoming shows or workshops or anything that you would like to promote?

Carl Bretzke: 52:53

So they have a kind of a holiday show at grinning gallery right now with I have a few pieces in that pretty much all the galleries have some of my work right now that’s on display workshops. I don’t do a lot of workshops. I typically will do, like a one day or two day preceding a plenary event, if I’m invited to do that, and then I’ve got a three day workshop coming up at Main Street Art Center in Lake Zurich, Illinois. That’s April 24 through 26 so that’s available. Winslow Art Center. They’ve done some recordings of me that are available online, and then, of course, streamline video and what paint Tube video. They’ve got two of my videos out, one on nocturnes, one on Sunset,

Laura Arango Baier: 53:46

awesome, yeah. And then I will link all of your your website, your Instagram, which, by the way, do you mind telling us what your website and Instagram are?

Carl Bretzke: 53:55

Yeah. So my website is Carl bretzky.com very easy. And then Instagram is see bretsky art, I believe, and Facebook is just Carl bretsky. But anyway, you’ll find me on both Carl bretzky would get you there. And it’s interesting that you just mentioned that because I, I, I use my website, kind of as my archive, I put everything I paint on the website, pretty much, and it’s chronological, so the more recent is always the first page, and then it goes back to older things as you go through pages. But I’m trying to, I was trying to think about this today, that most of my friends or people that know my work know it through Facebook and Instagram. I think they go to those sites much more frequently than your website or my website, and so I would say to anyone. Another piece of advice is, don’t ignore Facebook and Instagram as far as valuable, as far as boost. In your your image, or your your work. I think it’s helpful.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:05

Yes, I agree. It’s definitely. It’s nice to have a website because it’s a great landing spot for people who know you, but then they need to know you somehow. And of course, Instagram and Facebook are like, basically advertising, in a sense, like they get out there.

Carl Bretzke: 55:21

Yeah, I mean, I actually, I feel guilty that I like it so much. But I like it because I can look at other people’s art, and I get a kick out of doing that, and then hope, and a lot of them get a kick out of seeing mine. So depends how you use it, I think, and I just use it more in the interest of art.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:41

Yeah, yes, it’s a double edged sword, yeah, yeah. It can be. It could be great to research and to get excited and get inspired, but then if it takes over your life, you suddenly start hating your own work, and then, yeah, and then you end up in a pit of sadness. Yeah, I think we’ve all been there, but yeah, oh, continue. I was

Carl Bretzke: 56:05

gonna say the website, besides archiving my work, it keeps track of, kind of all the braggy things that, you know, the awards and different associations I’m in and so forth. So if anyone was interested on the planet in the plenary events I’ve done that’s all on there and also links to the videos. I didn’t realize that FASO was its own entity, and that you’re part of that, but I was going to tell you that I love FASO. I can navigate it so easily myself. I haven’t had to have anyone help me. I mean, that’s amazing for me. So yeah, I love it.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:45

I will be including all of your links in the show notes so everyone can go check out your gorgeous Nocturnes and your gorgeous daytime paintings. And yeah. So thank you for coming on to the podcast.

Carl Bretzke: 56:55

My pleasure. Thanks. Nice to meet you and talk to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:59

Yes, same here. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For this week’s episode, we made a compilation of our past guests reflecting on how early influences, mentors, and disciplined study shaped their art, and how they often feel driven to keep growing rather than staying comfortable. They describe learning fastest by painting from life—especially in plein air—tackling unfamiliar subjects, simplifying values, and using subtle color temperature shifts instead of high-contrast effects. Throughout the episode, our past guests stress intentional decision-making in composition and color, the importance of not overworking a piece, and the deep community and life-changing connections formed through workshops and shared painting experiences.

Episodes mentioned:

158 Cynthia Rosen

156 Shanna Kunz

155 Scott D. Prior

154 Julie Davis

151 John Morra

138 Michelle Dunaway

137 Chris Krupinski

136 Bill Davidson

127 Jill Basham

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Transcript:

Cynthia Rosen: 0:00

I always paint what I don’t know, what I’m not familiar with. And they said, you like the challenge? I said, No, I don’t like not knowing how to paint something.

Shanna Kunz: 0:14

I really like to simplify my values as down to as few as possible, and then create the activity within those values with temperature shifts.

Jill Basham: 0:26

When I’m painting, I try not to get too defined with it too quickly.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:33

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For this week’s episode, we made a compilation of our past guests reflecting on how early influences, mentors and discipline study shape their art and how they often feel driven to keep growing rather than staying comfortable. They describe learning fastest by painting from life, especially in plein air, tackling unfamiliar subjects, simplifying values and using subtle color temperature shifts instead of high contrast effects throughout the episode, our past guests stress intentional decision making in composition and color, the importance of not overworking a piece and deep community and life changing connections formed through workshops and shared painting experiences.

Cynthia Rosen: 1:33

Well, we’ve seen artists that have said, Okay, this is what’s going to sell. This is what I’m going to do, and I won’t put anybody down. I mean, if that’s works for them, it’s fine. It doesn’t work for me, I’ve been lucky. I mean, incredibly lucky. You know, people see things in my work that I don’t. Maybe because I see it all the time, and I’m most often discontent with it. It’s occasionally it’s like, Oh, I really like that piece. You know, one out of 10 pieces, it’s like, oh, that worked. How did happen? You know, most of the work, it’s like, well, it could be better. But, you know, people paint for different reasons. I had an uncle who, actually, he’s the person who gave me my first paint set when I was in junior high. He gave me, I don’t even know what kind of paint it was, but it stuck. You know, it’s like, that’s when I fell in love with art. I mean, for me, it was painting, what you could see, super realism. But anybody who engages in any of the arts in this life, in my book, is lucky. You know, for visual artists, you walk outside and it’s like, oh my God, look at that. For a musician, you hear a sound or beat and you say, Wow. You know, for a poet, you read a beautiful piece of poetry. Or a writer, you find some literature, and the use of the words is stunning, you know. So I think anybody engaged in any of the arts, theater, anything is blessed, because there’s something that can make our day unexpected. We can have a tough day at work. I mean, when I was teaching, it’s like, you can have a tough day teaching, or you can be loading grocery bags and somebody’s nasty to you. But if you have some kind of esthetic for a visual artist, which what I talk about most. It’s like, walk outside to see something beautiful, and it’s like, oh, relieves that stress from the day. But, yeah, it’s so if you want to be a Sunday painter and you get pleasure from it. It’s fine, you know, it’s what you want to do with your work, if you want it to grow, if you’re content just not worrying about that, you know, that’s fine, too. As a professional artist, I always want to grow. I have an acquaintance who’s a really fine, really fabulous and highly reputable painter, who said, when they go to the plein air events, they paint what they know. And so these plein air events for anybody who does. And now are these opportunities to go to a different location. It could be for three days, it could be for a week. The ones I used to participate in, I’ve sort of stopped doing them now, but we get put up in people’s homes. And so the only costs you have to color are the transportation and food and these, the hosting organization would constantly be showing your work with the opportunity for sales. So you know this person said they always paint what they’re familiar with, no matter where they go. And I said, I always paint what I don’t know what I’m not familiar with. And they said, you like the challenge? I said, No, I don’t like not knowing how to paint something, and it can get you in trouble. The first time painting cars, I went out with a group of people up on this hill overlooking a town. 630 in the morning, no traffic. There was like this one little shop that was open and there would be a car in front of it’s like, okay, I’m petrified of cars. I didn’t know how to paint them for me. I just want four wheels, warmth in the winter, windows that work in the summer, that will get me where I need to go. That’s what a car is. So how to paint something mechanical that I’m so unfamiliar with? So I started to paint it, only to find out that those cars were parked in front of a coffee shop. So they kept leaving. Every 10 minutes, the car would drive off and there would be a new car there. The first time I was in Florida and it was raining, and it was at plein air vent in Tequesta, Florida, and there were these two boats in this waterway that were just set these great angles to each other. And so I’m standing in this garage where it’s covered, and I’m looking out on this waterway, I’m going to paint boats. And somebody comes by and says, You’re not painting the boats, are you? It’s like, yeah, look at the angles. You know, the composition, it’s awesome, the dynamics. I was all excited. They said they’re going to move. What do you mean they’re going to move? Whatever. So I’m going to, you know, I’m painting them. Well, yes, the current is constantly shifting. The boats are constantly shifting. And finally, I wiped one out and just painted the other. You know, I kept waiting for, okay, it’s going to come back this way. Well, that didn’t really quite happen. So, and this was a quick draw, so you’re timed, you know, you have an hour and a half, two hours, whatever you have, to complete the painting, get it framed and display it. So for me, it’s like, I will go where there are votes, because I don’t understand votes. I am amazed that somebody had that kind of mind that they could if you look at the skeleton of a boat, it’s gorgeous. I mean, how they decided to make the curves so this thing would cut through the water the way it does. It’s just amazing to me. But for me to paint a boat, I’ve been on a couple of cruise ships, and in terms of a fishing boat, maybe I’ve been on one or two in my life, so I don’t understand votes. So if I’m somewhere where there are boats, I want to paint boats because I don’t get them. So, you know, it’s a it’s not the challenge. I just don’t want to be incapable of painting something, you know, and I don’t perceive it as a challenge. But yes, so our work is growing. For me, I like that change. It can be frustrating. I can do a horrible painting happily. I paint on ampersand gesso board, and I’ve discovered that, oh, I can sand it down. A year later, after the paint is all dry and cured, I can sand it down. Yeah, and use some of that residue color that’s left on the board, and you incorporate that into a new painting. But doesn’t mean my painting successful, and I still don’t like painting boats, even though, intellectually, I know they’re just a shape, but I will still go paint them if I happen to be where they are, until I feel comfortable.

Shanna Kunz: 10:34

I really like to simplify my values as down to as few as possible, and then create the activity within those values with temperature shifts. I just I had a professor that told me one time that high contrast, high value contrast, is like pounding somebody over the head to get their attention. Low value contrast and temperature shifts, is like somebody’s playing the violin, catching your attention, and it just grows and grows and grows and grows on you. So my work is very rarely about the pound on the head. It’s just not a lot about extreme contrast in value. It’s it is so much more about the color temperature shifts within and holding a value playing together. That’s a that’s a really big deal to me.

Scott W. Prior: 11:32

You know, when I was going to Orange Coast College, taking junior college by my mom and dad’s house, and I was taking drawing classes and stuff, and I was sat down by one of my favorite instructors there, who Dory Dunlap rip. She was like, You should study illustration. Gave me the hub of the wheel talk and how illustration goes into fine art and the graphics and the animation and all the stuff. And I’m like, Okay, that would be smart, you know. And, and I learned there’s a lot about, you know, telling a story with your images, and a lot about that is composition. Part of that is composition. And that just naturally came to me being able to, you know, people are like, 1/3 two thirds, or this or that, or I’m like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m just drawing it out so that my I’m happy with it. You know? They’re like, well, you’re doing it automatically. I’m like, Well, cool. Whatever you want to, whatever you say, are awesome, you know? So illustration has definitely helped. Given me that part of my painting, with my painting, it’s helped with that. That’s just part of it. It’s part of the package, you know. And I learned from a lot of people I didn’t like you have a lot of others, a lot of people that are out doing plein air, and they just take workshop after workshop with one guy or girl or, you know, whatever, and they study with the same person all the time. You’re not I had the opportunity to study with tons of insanely great illustrators, and I dabbled in the fine art department too. So I was going over to the fine art department, painting with these amazing Fine Art painters. So what? And then the best thing that I had made, move I made at while I was at school, is I got offered a job to do college work study. So I worked for the illustration department, and I had a set of classes, you know. And so then I was, I’d set up a class, and I’d have my my stuff outside the classroom or right by the door. So sometimes I would sit in with the instructor if I didn’t have anything to do in the office. So I got extra time with all these and the school doesn’t know this is illegal maneuvers people, the school doesn’t know that I did this. They know now, but I was sitting in on a lot of classes as well, so I had an opportunity to study with tons of people and learn and pick their brains, and then the archive, you know, searching through the stuff. So then I was working for the illustration department that director left, I went over to the fine art department and worked with Craig Nelson. And so my last year was doing work study with the fine art department, but I was still an illustration major, so it was overlapping, you know, trying to keep it going and learn as much as I could while I was there. And, you know, it helped you gotta, you know, you got to put yourself out there so you. You have to take those chances. One of the things that helped me out was the director of the illustration department. When I started working there, she started like, watching me, and she had a sit down like with me, telling me what I was needing to work on. I’m like, Okay, thank you. And she’s also, I need to have a sit down with your wife. Okay, so we had another meeting, and she basically was like, Scott screwing around too much. He needs to work his ass off if he wants to be competitive. And my wife’s like, yeah, that’s what we’re here for. She’s like, so you’re going to hardly see him, because he’s going to be working his butt off all the time. And I was like, okay, everybody’s in on this now. So I just wasn’t all in on it, you know. And here we are today. Excuse me,

Julie Davis: 16:06

plein air is because the Laurel, whom I mentioned earlier, she taught two classes still life and plein air painting at the school here. And so I jumped into both of them, and she taught one for six weeks, and then the next for six weeks, and then and I ended up taking, you know, two years, three years worth of classes from her. So my introduction to landscape painting and to any painting was still life in in plein air. I didn’t really have an option of, you know, doing a landscape indoors. So, but instantly, when I did that, I knew that this was a blast. It was a huge challenge, and it was kind of a nightmare, and it was a lot of chaos, but it was also like, I can do this. I can I can draw, you know, I can be creative outside you kidding me, you know, I mean, it’s just the best thing I could have ever created. So that was a no no brainer to me. And and still is, and, and then trees are sort of my focus on. Those became came around when I was really new in her class. And every time, you know, we’d go outside, I would just be like, oh, like, what do I do? How do I compose anything? How I am terrible at it, at this I’m terrible at painting trees. Like, you can’t be a landscape artist if you don’t paint trees. Well, right? Like in my brain, okay, this is it became. It began as a challenge to myself to improve, basically. And I said neck for the next year, for every single time I go out painting, I’m I’m not going to try to compose anything. I’m not going to mess with, you know, racking my brain on that. I’m going to just find a tree or a bush. But, like, the trees here kind of short so, but I’m going to find a tree, and I’m going to paint it, and that’s what I’m going to find. And so it took out, like, you know, it’s like changing your wardrobe to just white shirts and jeans or something. It was like, oh, okay, this is so much easier. And you know, I was terrible at it for a while, but at the time I was I was blogging, and so I was in the daily painting. Thing was big deal. So I was really pushing myself to do studies and just small little sketches outdoors and always on trees. And so then I started getting some momentum, you know, on the blog, and people seeing that and watching that, and watching my process and my evolution. And you know, as with anything, when you study and you practice, you get better, and you have aha moments, and you put those in your in your your pack, and you’re like, Okay, I’m beginning to, you know, you get some traction. And so, you know, along that, that path I got, I got better, and I developed different ways of, you know, different brushwork, or just all kinds of stuff. I have very specific memories of, you know, paintings that I did that was like, oh, that’s how you can do that, you know. And that’s the benefit of doing a ton of small sketches or studies. Instead of trying to do a completed painting outdoors, every time is that you’re you you get the miles in and the whole process, you know, you condense it to much shorter process by by doing that many and the small ones, the big ones, you know, takes a lot longer to complete. You don’t, you don’t get the process of beginning the painting. And, you know, all that goes into that and and the drawing, and just all of it. It’s compressed applebrush.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:59

We inspire. Artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast

John Morra: 21:38

that can also, that can also mean when you’ve been on a project for a long time, a real long time, what’s a long time? Some people think working for on a painting for a week is a long time. I think working on a painting for six months is you’re approaching long time. And by the way, you can get tunnel vision and really screw yourself up. All right, there’s a famous story of Titian starting paintings and then turning them against the wall so he didn’t see them for a while, and then when he flipped them back around again and said, Oh my god, now I see what’s wrong with it. Okay, that’s a very good idea. Which is, which is why, if you can help it, having something going on the side is really a good idea just to break up your tunnel vision. Easier said than done, because when you’re really excited about something, you get out of bed in the morning, you want to go jump in and, you know, solve these problems. Taking a break from it can be really good, because then you’ll, you’ll, you know, it’s the same way. That’s the same way you check your design in a mirror. You see it with fresh eyes. Beware of the mirror, though, because anything looks weird in the mirror at first and so, yeah. I mean, if you’re looking in the mirror to see if the figures forearm is way too long or way too short, or the nose is too long, yeah, you’ll see it. But watch out, using that on your composition, because that can that can really introduce all kinds of serious doubts. Yeah, be careful with that. It can. It can really show some things, but don’t overdo it. Or else you can just say, you’ll never get anywhere. You’ll never make a painting. You look in the mirror and you say, oh, no, it’s all wrong. I Oh, it’s a disaster. And then you just give up. That’s why I sometimes call it the mirror of shame, you know, because it it shows you your mistakes, but it also makes you feel like, you know, I’m an imposter. I’m a terrible designer. It can do that too, so watch out. What those damn mirrors. Be careful.

Michelle Dunaway: 23:33

Yeah, and I guess it depends on whether it’s like a Studio Gallery, kind of larger portrait, or an alla prima, or, you know, landscape. I’ll start first with the, you know, more simpler, you know, when you’re traveling and you’re, you know, either doing plein air, or, you know, painting someone, to me, that’s a little bit like a treasure hunt, right? It kind of brings out that kid explorer in me, of like, looking for a buried treasure where, you know, I was recently teaching at the portrait Society of American DC. And we do this. They do this faculty, face off the first night, and you don’t know what model you’re going to get. You don’t even know where you’re going to set up or what artists you’re going to be painting with. There’s three artists to a model. You draw a number out of hat. You go to that where that number is, and you don’t really have control over the model and lighting. You can collaborate with the other artists, but it has to be a good view for everybody. So you just kind of extract treasure from the viewpoint you have, the lighting situation you’re in. And there’s something beautiful to me about that lack of control and that excavation of that and the same with the landscape, with, you know, changing light and even bugs and such and nature, you know, just like having a limited amount of time to just capture something from life, and, you know, with light and and it that really, to me, hones your sensitivities to what moves you as an artist, right? And someone could get that same. Experience that I got at portrait society if they go to an open model workshop, you know, and you set up and, you know, pick your space to draw or paint often before the model has set the pose. And sometimes, you know, you’ll get a pose you really like and a view you really like, and sometimes you won’t. And I actually always learned more on the poses where I didn’t have an inspiring view, because I had to find something that moved me and pull it out and make it the dominant feature in the painting and and so that really kind of hones your sensitivities on the other side, you know, the flip side of that. And I try to do that, you know, a lot paint from life, especially when I travel and have time to, you know, spend a few days, you know, here and there, doing landscapes, or you’re painting from life, is working on something in the studio. And of course, I’d love to paint from life all the time, but, you know, that’s just not realistic. You know, some, especially, even some of the poses that I’d want to do, someone can’t hold for, you know, they might hold it once and then never speak to me again because it’s too hard to hold, you know. So it’s like I always want to take care of my models, you know, and keep them safe and healthy, but so I do utilize photography, and I think as long as you paint from life regularly, you’ll know what to change in photography, because even the best cameras, and I have a really good camera, but it lies to you, it pushes the contrast, it dilutes the color, it makes everything A sharp edge, you know, especially even with the more technologically advanced the systems get. You know, I had this new camera that I took in Africa, and when I was going there the first time a couple years ago. And it’s like, you can zoom in and see the dirt on the whisker of a lion, you know, it’s like that detailed. I don’t need that for painting. So a lot of times we with photography, you do have to really selectively edit what you’re going to paint so that your painting looks more like you painted it from life and how the human eye sees. But often for me, I’d say from the genesis of a creation of a painting, like why I choose certain things to paint first, it comes from observation, which we already talked about, just just being really observant of people around you, whether you’re interacting with them personally or seeing them from a distance. And sometimes I can, if it’s a friend of mine, I can recreate it or take a picture in the moment, or sometimes, if it’s someone I don’t know, maybe ask them to model or recreate it with another model, because it may not be about the particular person, but about a gesture or a feeling or some of their humanity that I’m seeing come through, and I can kind of replicate that same thing with with the model that I bring into a photo session with. And so after that inspiration, it’s gathering reference. And I try to do that pretty quickly, after I have the initial inspiration, even if I may not have time to paint it for months, or, you know, I have some things that I have had reference for that I haven’t painted for years, that I will still paint at some point, but gathering the reference. And, you know, doing a photo shoot. My ideal situation is to get you know, if someone inspires me that I want to paint, try to paint them from life for a couple hours, even if it’s a different kind of pose, and then do a photo shoot with them over a couple days. So just like you and I converse for like a half an hour, getting to know each other before doing this interview, that we have time to converse with them, get to know them, and maybe do some photos the first day, and then bring them back for a second session and do more photos, because I don’t just want to overly art direct to get my idea often when I see who they are and what they do naturally, what develops in the best reference develops out of a combination of an idea I had and allowing them to just bring themselves to the moment. And that kind of creates this other thing that I couldn’t have come up with on my own, these beautiful moments, right? And it might be how someone tilts their head, or how they move their hand, or something that you pull into that and it, and then it becomes this kind of collaboration, so to speak, you know, honestly, I know that I also love doing commissions, for that fact, because it’s more of a collaboration, but so once I have the reference, then the process between that and painting, and this is Something I teach to my advanced online class, is they’ll, they’ll send in their photos, and I’ll teach them what, something that I do on all of my reference, that I’m using photo reference for is I don’t, generally don’t have one photo that I know, oh, I’m going to paint this photo, right? I will have five or six photos from a session, and maybe take the hands from one or background from another, and kind of combine it. And I’ll do it in Photoshop, very basic Photoshop, because I leave it really rough because I know I’m going to paint it. So it’s just equivalent to doing a color study of merging elements, creating the composition, figuring out the parameters of the canvas, and also. So problem solving and strategizing as if I were doing the painting before I ever put paint to Canvas. And this is a very important part that’s not often talked about enough in like a in person all the prima class, but it’s something I learned, not in art school, but I learned from being friends with other fine artists that were in galleries and doing this work before I was doing this work and I was able to observe them and ask them questions in their studios, this is that pre planning, right? You’re there many different ways from a photo that you can compose it, crop it, subdue elements, enhance elements, because it’s still very important to get the essential focal point versus the peripheral elements. You know, a hierarchy of importance. What do you want to say in the piece? Right? We don’t want to just copy a photograph. We’re not a copy machine. But what? What do we want to say? And when you do that same process with photography as you would do painting from life, then often people are like, Oh, you painted this from life? And it’s like, no, I couldn’t have painted this person in this pose from life. They’re walking, or they’re, you know, whatever. They’re out in a forest and there’s moving sunlight, and sometimes I’ll do a quick little study, but doing, doing those, those comps in Photoshop. Some people like to do it in oil paint. Do you like little comps? To me, I love to do it on the computer. And I’m like, it’s really, really rough. I mean, it could be so much better, but I don’t spend time learning how to do photos. I mean, I use Photoshop Elements like the really basic basic because I don’t want it to be overly refined or polished. I just want it to be enough of a jumping off point for me to know where I’m going and at that point. And this is what I teach the students, because I do it with their photographs and screen share and and ask them, like, what do you want? And like, ask them the questions, like, what do you want to be the dominant focal point? What do you want? Where do you want the eye to go? How can we orchestrate the rhythms to to bring about that visual story that you’re wanting to convey through this piece of art? And sometimes that’s dark in an area, bringing out light in another area, things that mimic what a brush would do. And we’re we’re problem solving basically, so that when you start the painting on the canvas with your brushes and your paint, you’ve problem solved 90% of it, and you have a clear idea of where you want the finished painting to go. Then there’s the balance of you know, and I guide them through this where, you know, we work over weeks on certain paintings that they’ve chosen their own private work, and I share what I’m working on for galleries. And then the process for myself is you kind of know, 80% where you’re wanting to go. You have a clear intention, you’ve strategized, and you start painting. But I still try to leave that 20% open to the fluid creativity of the moment, because I might start painting and it might start going in a slightly different direction, but I might like that better. And to me, I find it’s very important to have that balance and not be so attached to what I wanted to do that I miss out on something even better. You know, there’s stuff that comes through. It’s kind of like you and I were talking about traveling before we started the recording, right? It’s kind of like when you’re going to a new city you’ve never been to. Yes, there are a few key things that I might really want to see. Maybe there’s an art exhibition or a landmark or historical building or something, but I always want to leave in big swaths of time open to wander and explore and discover things that I couldn’t have found in a tour book and I don’t have, you know, I don’t want to over schedule myself, and that’s the same way with painting. I want to have a clear intention, a game plan, but I want to be really present through the painting process, and be open to the fluid creativity of the moment, because sometimes that can be just so beautiful. And so that process is, you know, varies the time scale, you know, as you’re working through things and and then when I’m like, think I’m almost done, but I want to change just maybe a few things, right? But you’ve been looking at it for a long time, and that’s where I recognize in myself the perfectionism comes in. I’m like, I just want to refine a couple things. The best advice. And I got this from my mom in high school when I was working on a painting, and I was like, just working on a painting for myself, you know, and I would overwork things. And she’s like, when you are 99.9% done and you just want to change a few things, leave it for 24 hours. Don’t look at it. Leave it. Come back with fresh eyes. If those things still bother you adjust them, but a good portion of the time you won’t remember what they are. And I’d say, Good 70% of the time I come back and I’m like, I can’t even remember what I wanted to change, because I know, like it is done, and that keeps you from overworking. Because I get that question a lot from students. And then if something still really bothers you. Then you come back and you can see it clearly, you know,

Chris Krupinski: 35:03

no, they’re, they’re, they’re very, very intertwined. Graphic Design, everything you do, has to have a reason. You can’t just say, you know, if a client says to me, Well, why did you use that color? I can’t just say, oh, because I liked it. That is not an acceptable reason. There has to be a reason. So it’s not just color. With everything you’ve used, you have to have a reason. So I think that’s carried over into my painting, because everything I do has a reason. You know it’s it’s, for instance, when we, when I was talking about shadows before in the foreground, I will never use Kodak’s color palette ever. I use my I use my photos as reference only, and I develop my own color. So in these shadows, if I, if I relied on Kodak, my shadows would be great. But I don’t, I think, Okay, what am I going to use? What, what palette am I going to use in these shadows? And I pay attention to, I pay attention to color overall, throughout all of the shadows. So if I use a violet, you’re going to see it everywhere in the shadows, and then also temperature from from warm to cools as it moves away. But all of it has a reason in my head, all of it. And I think, I think that’s so important that you think about this and you have a reason for what you do, just not arbitrarily throw things down. And I think because of that, it, it just, in the end, creates a better a better painting, because it, it causes you to really look at what you’re doing and understand what you’re doing. In fact, one time I was doing a step by step, and what I did is, after a step, I would stop, and I would look and I would sit down and write all my thoughts down, not just what I did, why I did it, you know, why did I put this here, and why was it important to me, and why did I use this color, and blah, blah, blah, and, you know, so that just reiterates how much time I spent thinking about what I do. But anyway, so this is so yes, graphic design definitely has a play in my fine art.

Bill Davidson: 37:45

Actually, that’s a very good question, but I’m not sure I’ve ever told anybody this. I was going to a studio and trying to learn from this guy, and then, and I saw plain air, and I went, wow, there’s workshops and plein air. And part of it is this, the greatest fun of it’s being out there. I mean, it’s and you learn so fast when you’re out there, but you need studio to prepare yourself. I’ll never forget, I took my teacher out plein air painting. I said, Well, go play near painting, because I go into a workshop. He went out there and did it one time. Went right back into the studio, and I went see so I changed teachers. But here’s, here’s the thing. It’s just and the plein air. People are fun. They’re a lot of fun. They’re all helpful. And you get together so like, it’s really fun. I’ll teach four indoor workshops, maybe a year, and then I teach one. I live in the Monterey Carmel area, so I teach two a year out here because it’s so beautiful, and it’s six to eight people. And I actually, I’m getting ready to teach one in the Eastern Sierras this year, where I’m going to do the same thing, six to eight people. And you’re there, you paint a solid four days. But what happens is this, you get to know each other. They start forming groups. You go to dinners. I mean, it’s a game changer. It’s not just painting. It’s a whole life experience that’s just amazing. And when I was teaching them in Europe before covid, we would have 30 people, 15 students and 15 partners, and we would go to Italy, all over everywhere, and we’d go for like, eight, nine days. But the amazing thing was, you form bonds and friendships, and then you know each other all over the country. And the other thing was this, each time, when we announced the workshop the following year, it’d be sold out in four hours. So it’s like, wow. So you just get all these bonds. I mean, it’s turned into more than art. I would say now, most of my best friends, or a lot of the ones my newer best friends, were all formed in art. And I’ve met even though, when I was a trial lawyer, I met lots of people. I’ve met way more people have been seen way more of. Amazing things, being a playdare artist. So it’s a life changing, altering experience. And I encourage everybody. You need to go to these live workshops. You need to be in, like around the artists. You meet them. I mean, I know artists now that because of the workshops they they go across the country, they can stop at almost every city and visit with an artist they met in one of the workshops. So it’s really fun. So that’s why. And I mean, it’s like, I mean, I don’t want to be in the studio, I want to be outside, and I want to learn. And you learn faster painting from life. Everybody will tell you that now you do the studio work, because I teach out at the booth Museum, I think every summer, in July, which is wonderful in Cartersville, Georgia. So I do that when I teach up at Highland. So I do teach indoor ones. And I think you have to have that before you get outside. I think you can go outside too. I just throw you. Here’s what I would say. You throw yourself into it, and don’t judge yourself. And you get around people that are supportive and that can teach you things where you learn, and it becomes a lot of fun. I get a lot of doctors, dentists. I mean, it’s amazing. What little the people that are coming to workshops, they all get to know each other. It’s, it’s just, it’s a life altering experience.

Jill Basham: 41:21

Well and then. And in that sense, it’s maybe, for me, when I’m painting, I try not to get too defined with it too quickly. Because, yeah, you know, I think the thing is, and I’ve done it both ways, where I do get defined in an area too quickly, and then I do get precious about it and like, Oh, I just want to hold on to that little bit. But I think that if you can sort of be a bit more abstract in your start, yeah, and just looking at shape and overall, just the big picture simplifying put it in simply. It can end up, as long as you have a strong design and value structure, and end up being a very solid thinking.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:11

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For today’s episode we sat down with Barbara Jaenicke, an accomplished fine artist known for her impressionist landscapes created in oil and pastel. Originally from New Jersey, Barbara moved to Atlanta and later to Bend, Oregon, where the scenery continues to inspire her work. Her journey began with various art media and developed into a passion for capturing light, atmosphere, and reflective elements in nature. After careers in advertising and marketing, Barbara gradually transitioned into full-time painting, applying business and organizational skills to support her art practice. She emphasizes relentless skill development, time management, and perseverance as keys to succeeding as an artist. Barbara believes that genuine drive and a love for beauty are essential, encouraging artists to stay inspired and tackle both the creative and business sides of their careers. Finally, Barbara tells us about her upcoming workshops as well as her solo show at Cole Gallery in Edmonds, Washington, which features coastal and mountain scenes!

Barbara’s FASO site:
www.barbarajaenicke.com/

Barbara’s Social Media:
instagram.com/barbaracourtneyjaenicke/

Barbara’s Book:
Painting the Poetic Landscape

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Transcript:

Barbara Jaenicke: 0:00

You have to be true to yourself and know where you are in your journey realistically. And there’s nothing productive with getting down on yourself. You know, artists have many setbacks. Everybody has self doubt and you know, geez, you just, you just have to push through it and just know you’re going to go through ruts. You just have to start another painting work through it. You know, many times you have to regain your confidence.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:28

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Barbara Janicki, an accomplished fine artist known for her impressionist landscapes created in oil and pastel, originally from New Jersey, Barbara moved to Atlanta and later to Bend Oregon, where the scenery continues to inspire her work. Her journey began with various Art Media and developed into a passion for capturing light, atmosphere and reflective elements in nature. After careers in advertising and marketing, Barbara gradually transitioned into full time painting, applying business and organizational skills to support her art practice. She emphasizes relentless skill development, time management and perseverance as keys to succeeding as an artist, Barbara believes that genuine drive and a love for beauty are essential encouraging artists to stay inspired and tackle both the creative and business sides of their careers. Finally, Barbara tells us about her upcoming workshops, as well as her solo show at cole gallery in Edmonds, Washington, which features coastal and mountain scenes. Welcome Barbara to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:55

I’m doing very well, Laura. Thank you so much for inviting me to be part of the BoldBrush show. Happy to be here, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:02

and I’m happy to have you, because when I came across your work, I think one of my favorite things about it is how much you play with the focus you know, how much you know you have these beautiful, sharp areas and then surrounded by this beautiful, dreamy softness that really just pulls you into the scene. And I think that’s one of the best things, besides the way that you describe water, I think it is. It is absolute eye candy. So I’m very excited to pick your brain about your process and your gorgeous work. But before we dive in, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do? Oh, sure.

Barbara Jaenicke: 2:42

Well, I I was born and raised in New Jersey. Lived for a long time in Atlanta, but I currently live in Bend Oregon. I’ve lived here for the past 10 years. We moved here for the scenery, and I’m a wife, I’m a mom of a college student, and I’m a professional Fine Art painter, and have been for little over 20 years. And I work in oil and pastel and paint mostly landscapes, although I do dabble every now and again in still life, and my style is more painterly Impressionism. I like a loose style, very edited style. It’s usually what I shoot for. It took a while to to really loosen up my work. It was a goal of mine. I was admired artists who could do that well. So that’s what I’ve always strived, strive for with my work, and also capturing light in my work is something that is important to me.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:50

Yeah, yes, yeah. And I think you’ve definitely done a great job. I was admiring one of your paintings. You’re welcome where you have this gorgeous little stream and this snow surrounding it, and the way that you captured the reflections on that dark stream, you can tell that it’s dark, right? It’s a black little stream, but at the same time, or seemingly black on top, you have these gorgeous reflections that, ah, yeah, definitely

Barbara Jaenicke: 4:16

achieving, yeah, reflective elements in the landscape is a favorite theme of mine. That’s why I like to paint snow. It’s very reflective. You can have a lot of fun with color temperature. With color palette, it expands the value range. It expands the temperature range. With reflective elements, you know, white water does the same. And I’ve been doing a lot with white water, and, you know, moving water and waterfalls, and, you know, a little bit with clouds and just other other things that sort of extend, extend that value range in a painting. So that’s, that is what I, I enjoy quite a bit in landscape painting. And it’s when other artists do that, well, I call them my go to artists who, you know, work that I love looking at and inspires me that tends to be what they capture, well in their paintings, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can tell you have that love for the water, for sure, and the reflective surfaces, because you can really see it in the strokes and in the just the flavor, the way that you describe it. Why did you gravitate so much towards the landscape? Having been, you know, raised in, you know, New Jersey, which is very much cities. Why landscape?

Barbara Jaenicke: 5:38

Well, you know, I really didn’t get into painting more seriously. You know, I was a painter. I was an artist when I was younger, you know, living in New Jersey. We lived, you know, in central New Jersey, so it wasn’t really urban area. So I did always love being outside. And, you know, especially now, I love hiking. I love being outdoors. And it’s really landscape paintings that have always inspired me. So that’s why I sort of gravitated toward that I, you know, as I was younger, I, like most artists, I dabbled in all kinds of subject matter. I did, you know, I did pet portraits for a while, really everything and anything, just trying out different subject matter, even different media I, you know, worked in Well, I think my my first medium I worked in was just pencil. I loved drawing, and that’s really sort of where I came into it was just a love of drawing. So I did a lot of pencil drawing, charcoal drawing, a lot of pen and ink. You know, this is that way back when I was a teenager, I went through this whole pen and ink phase, I did watercolor. We did a lot of that. In my high school art classes. Did acrylic, an oil pastel. I did all of that. So I kind of ran the gamut of lots of different types of media to work in, and when I got back into it years later, I sort of had two starts to my painting journey. One was when I was a teenager, back when I was in high school, and then a little in college, I painted quite a bit. Then during my early careers, my you know, I call it my first and second career. Before I came into painting career, I got back into it maybe 15 years later, when I had a little bit more time kind of job with better hours, so I had more time to paint, to classes, that sort of thing, and in the evenings. But when I got back into it at that point, at that second, my second start, I’ll call it, I I started, I guess, a little bit with drawing, and then I thought I would try a little bit of pastel, because that’s what I did early on. I did a little pastel before I went into oil when I was a teenager. But I and I figured I’d go eventually into oil. But at that time, all the better pastel products were on the market, the sanded surface papers, the softer consistency pastels, and I really enjoyed those. So I did stick with pastel for quite a while, and got into back into oil a little later than I had intended, but I eventually did, and so now I currently work equally in both. But you know, like I said, as the as I really studied the work of other artists, I really was drawn to landscapes, so I did gradually gravitate toward mainly landscape. So that’s, that’s why I’m primarily, primarily a landscape painter.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:12

Now, yeah, it makes sense, because, I mean, the landscape is such a beautiful thing to paint, right? It just, it’s a gift that keeps on giving. Even the same location every day is a different day, right?

Barbara Jaenicke: 9:28

Yeah, there’s a lot of variety, I think, in landscapes. You know, I always have to sort of chuckle when I go with artists to paint at a particular location, and they’ll say, Well, I don’t know if I want to go back there. I painted it once already. And for me, a lot of locations I could paint there every single day for a year and paint a different painting. You know, I you know, the composition is different, the lighting is different, the atmosphere is different, you know, the vegetation is different from one season to the next. So you. You know, to me, I could make a completely different painting. You know, when I when I still lived in Atlanta, and I was painting quite a bit, we, we used to travel to Minnesota once a year, and it’s usually just after Christmas time. So there was always snow on the ground. And living in Atlanta, we would get a little tiny bit of snow maybe once every few years. So as I was visiting Minnesota over the course of it was probably almost 20 years I, I was stockpiling my snow reference photos, snow scene reference photos, and at a certain point, I started bringing my painting gear up there and painting out in it. And so what would happen is I would try to take as many reference photos and collect some studies. It was a family thing, so not a ton of time to do that, but I would really try to stockpile my reference photos of snow scenes, but I would have to make them last a whole year. And so that’s when I really started training myself to use either the same image or many similar images of the same basic view of the same basic landscape and crop into it many different ways. Zoom out, zoom in, vertical, horizontal, and it really trained me to understand how to work a composition each painting may focus on something a little bit different in each painting. So it really having it’s almost like having that limitation improved some skills in the design and composition thinking through more of a very precise visual statement about the landscape. Is it about the light on the tree, or is it about light peeking through the tree, these delicate tree edges, or is it the light skimming across, you know, the field behind it? So it’s something where you’re really going to take your focus a little different, throughout the scene. And you know, I would get so much mileage out of a single reference photo. And I was doing a teaching, a lot of teaching around that time, so I needed lots of reference, and I was making some headway with some success with snow scenes, as far as entering them in shows and that sort of thing. So of course, you want to keep it up, and that’s then what students want to learn from you. So I had to make snow scenes work with only having a week’s worth of or even less five days worth of reference photos last me the entire year. So again, it was like a limitation that helped me gain some skills.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:05

Yeah, oh my gosh, that’s a that’s really awesome, though. Because, like you said, there’s you can look at one place, right? But if you really notice the place, you can definitely capture or see a lot more than if you’re just glancing in a place, right?

Barbara Jaenicke: 13:22

And the more you study a subject, yeah, the more you see. But now I live where we get we don’t get a ton of snow right here in the city of Ben, but it’s there for me to drive to, you know, about a 45 minute drive up into the mountains for whenever, whenever I need it so it’s handier now.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:44

Oh, yeah, yeah, you don’t have to stretch out four pictures. Yeah.

Barbara Jaenicke: 13:50

But you know, there are those favorite subjects I’m real particular about my reference. And you know, even when you know places I’ve known that are my that have become my favorite places to paint on site. I’m particular about what what it offers in terms of the composition. And so even though I might go to all these different places to paint or take reference photos, I’m pretty particular about what’s going to make its way into a larger painting. So I still have to put those skills to use. I still have my favorite reference photos that have served me well, because they just have a lot of the nuts and bolts in them that I look for for a good composition, good visual statement about the subject, whether you know it’s usually the lighting, if it has or has maybe some good edge variety to work with. So there’s, there’s always those favorite subjects that will make their way into a painting, maybe a few times.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:57

Yeah, yeah. And then in terms of your. Process. Since you mentioned, you know, having reference images. Do you do a little bit of both, like, you know, on site, sort of note taking, and then also, you know, pictures, and then

Barbara Jaenicke: 15:09

studio, yeah, yeah, I’ve, you know, there are many ways to bring visual information back into the studio. When I was back in Atlanta, I had a wonderful group of painters there that we went every Tuesday, and we would go paint. And we did that for a year. So I was in the habit of painting weekly on site, so that, you know, an experience like that over the years is really invaluable to the landscape artist. And when I moved here, I to understand the landscape. I did a lot of painting with, you know, local painters, and maybe not quite as much as weekly. But for the first few years I was here, I went out pretty weak frequently, and painted on site, either with a group or some, you know, nearby areas I could, I would just, you know, head out and paint on my own. There’s even in, even in and around my neighborhood where I live, there are some pretty nice views to paint where it’s easy for me to just go and paint on site. But I’m also the type of artist where I also like little zoomed in snippets of the landscape, like a little clump of snow covered grass next to some water, and I’ll sometimes just use that as a nice subject to study and understand the landscape, just By studying something from life after you are studio bound for too long, sometimes you just have to get out for a little bit. And you know, see it from life. But we go on a lot of hikes here. My husband and I love to hike, and we have a couple of friends that hike as well that we like to get out with. And bend is a great place for that, because there are just so many areas to go see and hike to. We’re, we’ve been here for 10 years, and we were still learning of new places to go and explore. But a lot of times, if I’m if it’s too far to go to bring painting gear, and also, you know, when you’re with non painters, it’s, you know how that goes. You don’t want to make them sit there and wait while you try to get a painting in. But sometimes I’ll bring my little gouache kit and I’ll beg for maybe 15 or 20 minutes to do just a little color study. And sometimes they’ll be amenable to that, and that’s usually an okay thing. It’s good for a quick little rest stop. So I’ve taken a liking to gouache for that reason, and I don’t really use it for finished work, but just for these quick little color studies. And they’re fun. It’s fun to do. It’s you can I have my little, tiny, little scale down gouache backpack with a little gouache kit in it, and that’s been a lot of fun. So I’ve developed a habit of doing a little color study, but also some notes I’m, you know, I want to be able to describe what I’m looking at, what is special about it and what’s peaking my interest. What is the real exciting part of what I’m looking at? I want to be able to remember that that’s all the stuff that photos don’t capture. And so I’ll do that. And then other times, if, if it’s still a situation where I’m not going to bring the gouache kit, but maybe just bring a little notebook, I’ll do a little just a pencil sketch in the notebook, and then it’s the note taking. That is really the information I need. You know, one thing I want to be able to jot down is the mid value of that scene that I’m looking at. That’s something that the photos always get wrong. So what is my mid value? So I understand what I’m looking at when I look at a reference photo back in the studio, and then again, I describe all those other things. What’s exciting about it? What does the light look like? What is the color of the light, all of those sorts of things. And if I have none of that, I don’t have the gouache kit, I don’t have my painting gear, I don’t have even a sketchbook. What I’ll also do is use my phone, and sometimes I can, with my finger, jot some notes on the one of the photos, or I’ll take video, and I’ll talk over the video and describe all of those things that I’d like to capture. So that’s become another way that I do that. So just it’s, you know, at that point, it just becomes fun to find different ways, I think, for me, to bring visual information back into the studio. And you know also, I found that some of my most successful paintings are those that have been inspired from a. Hike, an all all day hike, when I was completely immersed in the landscape all day, just looking at it, being amazed, just understanding what is so beautiful and amazing about the scenery that I’m looking at all throughout the day, looking at how the lights changing throughout the day. It’s just that that whole immersive aspect in it that really, I think, is just as important as if you’re trying to paint a quick study, fighting the light, trying to look at all the the nuts and bolts of the lights and darks and all that sort of thing. Sometimes it’s it’s also helpful to just slow down and just soak it in and really just observe. And if I can get in the studio, maybe within a week after that hike and at least do a quick study, I’ll usually have something that has a little bit more inspiration behind it. So that’s, you know, to me, I think constantly bringing back visual information and all those different ways, I think is all important in the studio,

Laura Arango Baier: 21:17

yeah, and I think you definitely have a very awesome way of doing it. I mean, you’re really going at it from so many angles, because you mentioned recording, and then, you know, checking, you know, keying those values. And then gouache, which, you know, I love gouache, because it just dries quickly. And, you know, it’s, it’s not as funny medium, yeah. And I think the one trouble, the one troublesome thing that could happen is maybe, like, you know, the wash colors. It’s kind of, you know, across the board, since companies don’t really have the same color, right, they’ll call it like, Yeah, this is burnt umber, but it’s not the same Burnt Umber as this other company. I think that’s, I could see, maybe that being the only real challenge. But, geez, yeah. I mean, when you really want to capture a scene and be able to pull it back into your memory, you really have to do what you can to put yourself back in that place. And I think that’s very smart to, like, take a recording and, like, describe things as much as you can. That’s, wow. I’ve heard that one before.

Barbara Jaenicke: 22:26

Oh, yeah. And it’s, you know, I think I got it to a certain point where I had to realize that I want to do something more than copy my subject matter, you know, as the type of style that I work in. I want it to be Painterly. I want to want it to be impressionist in style. I really want to to have more of a visual message within the painting than just a copy of it. And you know, and I’ll try to bring back that visual information to the studio. I think hitting it in, you know, various ways, you know, each time I gather visual information it, it allows me to not simply copy it. Now, when we paint on site as plein air painters, yeah, you have to understand the landscape. You want to understand what you’re looking at, get the values correct, what does the light look like? So, you know, in a way, you’re doing a little bit of copying more so in just seeing from life and understanding what you’re looking at. And of course, you you know you’re trying to do all that as far as a visual statement too, if you can lock into that when you’re on site. But I think when you’re not under the gun with that time with you know how long you have the light for, sometimes it allows you to tune into other things happening in the landscape, you know, I think all of us, you know, as whenever you’re starting out as a painter, you know, I say you’re a beginner, and you start out, there is a time period where you do have to copy. That’s, you know, every artist has to learn, like that. You there’s copying involved. You have to learn how to see, but the when you get further on your journey, for I think for most artists, the the goal is to go beyond just just copying. And so I guess that’s why, you know, I’m trying to look for other ways to bring back that visual information. And to me, it’s just become more fun when I find different ways of observing the landscape to bring it back into the studio. It’s really just, you know, bringing those solid ideas and plus and just the inspiration into the studio. I think every artist has gone through that period. Where, especially a professional artist, when you have deadlines and you’re, you know, you’re trying to get work into shows and sell in galleries and that sort of thing, it you know, it is work. There are many times where, when the you know, it’s not quite as fun as a lot of people think, that you know you’re having all that fun in your studio. So I think, you know, I’ve gone through those periods, especially when I’m real busy trying to teach workshops and get work banged out in the studio. And you know, you don’t, you don’t want it to become drudgery. And there are many times it can become that. It’s, you know, if you’re a working artist, it’s not a hobby. It’s not a fun little hobby. It’s it. You have deadlines. It’s work. So you I think it’s been important for me to find ways to continue, get to continually make it fun to remember that inspiration. What drives me? Why do I do this? And, yeah, I think just, you know, finding ways to continually be inspired by the landscape, or, you know, really, whatever it is I’m painting, you have, you have to keep that inspiration going

Laura Arango Baier: 26:18

for sure. Yeah, yeah. And, like you said, you know, if you’re caught in deadlines, and you know, you have to perform, right, because you have to make good work so that it sells, so that, you know, you can continue doing this career, it can become, you know, painful, almost like, Oh, I gotta do this, and I don’t really want to. So I think it’s very smart to try to re vitalize that inspiration, that joy, because it can, yeah, it can drag you down if you’re not careful, you know that, and it affects

Barbara Jaenicke: 26:51

the quality of your work. It really does, yeah, it really affects, you know, it shows, you know, paintings that come together a little bit more easily were many times paintings that there was something that I was more inspired by and not forcing it.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:13

And I think that’s so important, because you can, like you said, you can see it in the work when it feels like, oh, this poor person’s car was out of gas. Type of situation where they’re just pushing through something, it’s like, calm down. It’s okay, it’s okay, take a break, right? But, of course, deadlines, and I, actually, I wanted to bring that up, because you were an art director and you were, you know, in the corporate marketing world before, you know, you went back into fine art as your first love. Um, how has that, you know, influenced not just maybe, like the the business side, but also the compositional side, the sort of, like the quick thinking, sort of, uh, aspect of painting? Well, yeah, I had the

Barbara Jaenicke: 27:57

I’ve had, you know, three careers, yeah, the first two. One was in advertising, the other in marketing. You know, all three careers I’ve enjoyed and have all sort of fed off the other. And, you know, progressed as an art director, as an art director in I worked on the agency side, and I was the type of art director that, yeah, I worked with a I was always teamed with a copywriter, and we would come up with the concepts for ad campaigns. I worked mostly in print advertising, and, you know, part of that was, you know, coming up with what we call the big idea. And you know, kind of an umbrella idea for an ad campaign, like a series of ads. And usually that big umbrella idea resulted in a tagline, like a company that has a tagline, and all of the advertising sort of tied into that tagline that wrapped everything up. And so that was always the goal. It was really creative effort where you really had to, you know, expand your thinking to come up with those ideas. It’s basically, you know, visual with the verbiage that went it went with it and, you know, combined, it had a nice, you know, punchy idea to it now, as a painter, I didn’t realize until, you know, much later in this career that I’m in now how it it’s sort of the same thinking in that you’re, you’re coming up with that big idea of a main visual idea you want for a painting, and you want to stay on track with that main visual idea, and every element within the landscape that you then address has to support that main idea, whether it’s an area of the landscape that stays quiet or something that has a little. More punch to it that leads your eye, you know, to some of the main areas of the landscape where you want the viewer to look and you know, for example, if, if I have a landscape with some rocks and there’s sunlight coming across, well within that landscape, there’s trees in the background, there’s grasses in the foreground, other little rocks poking up here and there, but I want to stay on track with the idea being light just skimming across the tops of some large rocks. Well, everything I do in that painting to address that has to make sure that it remains about that main idea. You know, if there’s grasses on the side, that’s just a supporting role, I don’t need to render those in a way that’s going to steal that attention. So in other words, I’m not going to render everything equally. I have to stay on track with that main idea. If it’s, you know, a mountain in the distance and small buildings in front of it. I want to think through all of the proportions throughout the composition to make sure those mountains compared to the little buildings, stay that same proportion. Or I want to set it up to a very specific proportion so that it those, those little buildings look dwarfed by the large mountain, because that’s my idea, the large mountain looming over the little building. So everything I do in that designing that composition supports that main idea. And so really, it sort of is the same sort of thinking that I did back as an art director, and also as an art director, I you know, things like understanding composition, design, proportions. You know, whenever you’re designing advertising, all of that has to fit together in a certain size and have a nice eye appeal to it. So yeah, when all of those years thinking through those things definitely lends itself to everything that goes into composition for painting. Then when I moved into I basically went from the agency side to the corporate side. One thing I wanted to do was use the other side of my brain for a while. You know, it’s just starting to burn out a little bit on the creative side of advertising. It was still fun, but I I got to a point where I felt like I was enjoying the scheduling and organization of those projects more so than banging out the creative after a while they you know, you rehash the same ideas and not quite as fun, but it was still fun, but it was just Time to move into something else. And I also wanted, you know, selfishly, wanted better hours in advertising. Although I really enjoyed the career you work crazy hours, you just do it’s, you know, it’s not, definitely not a nine to five job. And, you know, I just, I wanted a little bit more of a life in the evening and on the weekends. So and I wanted more time to paint, I really wanted to get back into fine art. So that was a pretty important impetus to making that change. And and I did get back into painting when I had more of a nine to five job in marketing, and that career really helped me a lot with a lot with writing. I had some jobs in marketing where I did the writing, other jobs in which I worked with the ad agency creatives and worked with writers and did more editing. And so it was a lot about developing written communication that was very concise, very compact. Try to get a message a clear, clearly communicated message across in the short, shortest amount of words as possible. And also make it grammatically correct. So definitely that that background helped me quite a bit. I never would have thought that a career as a fine art painting would involve so much writing. But for things like your website, your social media, posts where you want to, you know, really pack a punch in just to in a few sentences. Otherwise you totally lose the the reader scrolling through, you know, their social media feed newsletters, you know, any of that stuff you you need to be able to clearly communicate what you do and. Communicate your work, descriptions about your paintings, all that you’re, you know, you’re always asked to write up, this, that and the other thing about your work, your teaching, yeah, you know, workshop descriptions, that sort of thing. So there’s, there’s a lot of writing. And luckily, I do enjoy writing. I’ve written articles for some of the art magazines, and I’ve always enjoyed that. So it’s definitely it has been a good background to have when I worked in marketing, to give me some knowledge in that area. And you know, also, there’s, you know, I do place some paid advertising. So just knowing a little bit about how that all works, it’s done quite differently than when I was doing all that back in the 80s, as late 80s was early 90s, was when I was an art director. But yeah, having all that knowledge certainly, I think, gives you a leg up on getting all that, all that done on top of, you know, your your painting endeavors, just trying to actually create the work. So, yeah, they all have, sort of all. Each of my three careers have sort of built on each other and been Advent advantageous to what I do now, for sure,

Laura Arango Baier: 36:23

yeah, wow. I think just hearing you, you know, discuss it, obviously, it’s like, yeah, we all know that as artists, we have to wear so many hats, and we have to do all the things. But I think, you know, the way that you just described it is like, oh my gosh, we have so much stuff that we do really have to do. Like, you just, like, don’t really consider it, because, you know, all you want to do is paint and just focus on this one thing that you’re doing. But in order for that, you know, it almost feels like the 20% is the painting and the 80% is all the other business side, right? That we have to do,

Barbara Jaenicke: 37:01

yeah, yeah. I try hard to not get those percentages too out of whack. It’s, it’s definitely at least 5050, but some weeks it does, yeah, skew to the business and marketing and and, you know, you have to squeeze that in for, you know, definitely you have to squeeze it in. But yeah, it’s always a balancing act.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:26

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly BoldBrush live webinars, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next BoldBrush Live Webinar is coming up on the fourth of December, with our special guest, Kevin McPherson, you can find the sign up link in the show notes. At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com, the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile, friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, yes, yeah. And this actually brings me to another question that I think you know, it’s, I feel like it’s become more relevant now because, you know, social media and because of, you know, I. AI, unfortunately, what defines an artist for you?

Barbara Jaenicke: 40:06

Yeah, that? Well, that’s definitely a question that can go in a million different directions.

Unknown: 40:13

But to me, it’s an artist is someone I think who is,

Barbara Jaenicke: 40:22

and I don’t, I don’t ever, ever want to use the word somebody who’s talented with, you know, producing art, because that’s definitely not me. It definitely doesn’t apply to me. But it’s, I think, someone who is very unexplainably driven to create an original work of beauty or passion that is a response to, you know, something an idea, something that we’re inspired by, and you know, for many people, that it basically revolves, revolves around capturing beauty. Now, all there are so many different styles of art, so it’s not always about beauty. I’m, you know, I’m an artist who definitely falls into that category. I want to capture beauty, but sometimes it’s just something they’re passionate about. So it’s more like an inner drive and not something that’s only a natural gift. You know, I had to work at developing my skills as as an artist. It was definitely not something that came naturally to me, but something that it’s more the drive, that inner drive, that I don’t know where that comes from. You know, that really is the God given gift, not the the actual skill. It’s the the drive inside me is the the God given gift, and that’s why I say it’s unexplainable, because it’s, you know, there are some, sometimes, you know, you you want to be able to really push your skills as far as you can. And sometimes I think, why do I do this to myself? Why? Why am I putting myself through this? So I think it’s just, you know, something we’re passionate about, and, you know, you don’t want to give up at it. And it’s, you know, the the the prize at the end is having a painting that is successful. You know, to me, that’s, you know, that’s that feeling of elation when the painting works and you’re happy with it. And you have to go through a lot, you have to go through a lot of duds to get to that, but, but that’s, that’s the prize at the end. And I think that’s why we, we all do it. And I do, you know, I’ve got a funny story that sort of as sort of a precursor to what I ended up doing now in my life. And this is was, of course, told to me. I don’t remember it, but when I was about three, and my sister was about she was six or three years apart, and at my grand we were at my grandmother’s house, and like a lot of people at that time, they had those crystal chandeliers, and, you know, she had one in her dining room. And at a certain time of day, light would come through the window, and it would, you know, light up the crystal chandelier. So you have all these prisms of color all over the place, and it affected my sister and I differently. My sister, she danced. She saw it and danced around the time the dining room she you know, just it made her happy. I had a completely different response. I wanted to capture it in my hand, and I went into another room, and I opened up my hands, and it was gone. And I started crying because I wanted to capture, I wanted to take it with me. So I just laugh at that story, and I think that’s it’s sort of, since it’s something I did when I was so young, I think that’s just, that’s what’s in my nature to want to just capture beauty and be able to take it and use it somewhere else. So just kind of a weird, funny story. But I have to, you know, it wasn’t until, you know, more recent years that I thought, yeah, that kind of is sort of a foreshadowing type of thing that stayed with me until, you know, right up into adulthood.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:30

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that so much. And, oh, I think what I really love that you mentioned is that drive for sure. Yeah, because we’re all, we all have that capability to be creative, right? We all have that capability and in different mediums, in different ways. Could be music, it could be painting, it could be, you know, decorating a house, right, right? Yeah, but, but what like you said, what really keeps us going is. Our specific artistry or craft, is that drive, because it’s so it’s so easy to give up. It’s so easy. I mean, how many people out there don’t keep going because maybe it doesn’t capture their interest, or they don’t have that drive to continue in that path, but they do have it for a different one, right? And I love that you mentioned that too, because it doesn’t really box in the idea of an artist as much as other definitions, yeah, because I do find that creative people who are artists in this sense that also spills over into other crafts, right? I mean, it’s not just oh, yeah, I’m an artist in the sense of painting. It’s like, No, I’m an artist in the sense that I like, like like you said, capturing beauty. I like creating and sharing this beauty that I want, you know, I see in the world, and I want to share it, and I interpret it, and I want to put it back out there. And I think that’s, oh, that’s a really great definition, yeah, yeah.

Barbara Jaenicke: 45:57

I don’t know how other people define that. I, you know, possibly it’s a question you ask a lot of people, but I don’t know that that’s my take on it.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:06

No, I love it. I love it, and it makes perfect sense. I think it’s most inspiring for sure way of viewing it. Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you too, because you know, you had these very challenging careers before you stepped into fine art, what was it like for you when you decided to just, you know, cut your old career and just go for painting? What was that transition like for you?

Barbara Jaenicke: 46:36

Well, for one thing, I want to make a correction there that this is the most challenging career than all the other

Unknown: 46:45

ones, for sure,

Barbara Jaenicke: 46:49

but I guess maybe, no, I have to just laugh at that. But you know what’s funny is just a quick aside, but it’s funny that you put art in the job title, and there’s a different level of respect versus working in the corporate world. When I worked in corporate marketing, and I would tell people my job title, what I did, I honestly got much more respect. They thought I was smarter than when I described a career that had art in the name of it, and but my career as an art director and what I do now were definitely more challenging careers in terms of time, stress, keeping on deadlines, doing it well on a deadline. And you know, in marketing, I’m sure there’s other you know, there’s stressful jobs in marketing, but in comparison, I mean, I still had deadlines. I still had busy days, for sure, but overall, it like I said, it was more of a nine to five job, and I had several jobs in marketing. They were all sort of the same. But yeah, that’s a frustrating thing. People stereotype you if you’re an artist of any type, which is unfortunate. But anyway, let’s get back to your question about, How did I make that transition? And I think, like a lot of artists, it was certainly gradual. It wasn’t just, you know, quit the job one day and you know, you’re a income generating fine artist the next I mine was prompted by my company’s layoff where I was working at the time, and so I was without a job at a weird point where my husband and I were wanting to start a family, and we’re noticing, all right, we might have this little gap between, you know, now and when that might happen. Now we wanted to have me at least be home part time, as you know, a part time, you know, stay at home mom, that was the goal. And so we looked at finances, and we said, well, let’s, let’s try see what we could do. And we don’t know how long, you know, it’s going to take, you know, before we have a child. So we made it work. And you know, it ended up being about a year and a half, maybe just under a year and a half, before we had our son. And so I looked at that time between when I had my job and when I was a mom, I looked at that time like gold, and I didn’t waste a second of it. I had thought, well, at that time, I was getting back in, you know, into painting for a few years at that point. And somebody had had told me that, you know, I could consider teaching at, you know, one of the local art center. Dollars. And, you know, when I first heard that, I thought, Oh, am I good enough to do that? Is that something I want to do? I’m without a job, so I probably can’t be too picky, but, but anyway, during that time, you know, if the first thing I thought is, you know, I need to really buckle down and get my skills up as much as I can. I need to be good at what I do if I want to teach it. And I was making a little bit of headway with the local art scene, getting into shows, selling a little bit of work. So I was on my way already, but I really wanted to push myself. And so I went to at this was in Atlanta at the time, and there was, you know, a lot, since it’s a bigger city, there was a lot happening there as far as opportunities to learn, and, you know, different groups to be involved in, that sort of thing. So I went to, I attended anything that was free or affordable to gain little tidbits of knowledge. I thought I want to constantly learn open my eyes to just different types of art, types of skills, things that might help me, even if it’s just understanding, supplies, that sort of thing, any little tidbit better ways of framing all that sort of thing, you know, I really wanted to turn myself into a sponge and not waste a second of that time that I wasn’t working a full time job. And really within almost funny like the day, I didn’t particularly like my job at the time, so I wasn’t all that unhappy with losing the job, but I have to say, I never stopped keeping my day planner. I’m still, I still keep a paper day planner. I’m not a little bit on my phone, but I like a paper and pencil, and I had never stopped scheduling my time and being organized and efficient about what I want to get done each day. So I kept that up, and I just basically hit the ground running, so that within about a year, it was like through a co worker of my husband’s who was looking for somebody to teach a drawing class for their young adult church group, and I thought I could do that. So that’s where I started with, teaching a drawing class. I priced it dirt cheap, just in case I realized I wasn’t very good at this. And so I tried it. And I understand, I think many artists would tell you this, that once you start teaching something that you’ve been working at for a while, you realize you you know more than you think you did about it, and it becomes just very rewarding to pass that knowledge on to others, and especially if it’s something you’re passionate about. So I realized I wasn’t terrible at it and and I thought I might enjoy this. So so the teaching aspect progressed from there. Once I had a little bit of confidence in doing that, I approached a local art center and started teaching there. And then, you know, a few other local art centers. Eventually I taught from my studio in Atlanta, and then from there, started teaching workshops. After a few years, I started teaching the out of town workshops. But, yeah, you know, my career grew just incrementally. And I think that does that for a lot of people. You know, as my son got a little older, you get a little bit more studio time, and really pushed myself with trying to enter shows, getting published in art magazines. It just sort of progressed, you know, little by little from there. And I think that that’s probably how it happens for for a lot of artists, you have to just build on it little by little. So both with the producing paintings and with the teaching, yeah, just kept working at it. And my son’s in college now, so yeah, so I have a pretty full schedule now,

Laura Arango Baier: 54:15

yeah, I can imagine. And I think what I like also is that, you know, I think what you what you mentioned too. It really emphasizes the that slow, building that, you know, steady, stable, sort of, okay. First we start with, really, you know, getting good at the skill. And then, okay, now that I’m good, I can teach. And then that actually builds the skill even more, because you realize, huh, there’s this tiny gap in my knowledge that I can notice now, but then I have the solutions as well, because I’ve been doing this and I can understand it. And now you can learn these things three times better, because when you teach, you need to know the subject extremely well. And then from there, of course, you know, joining shows, painting societies, and then getting more, uh. Getting yourself out there. And I think a lot of people, and I’ve been mentioning this many recent episodes, a lot of people who are artists don’t realize how important it is to network and to socialize and to have community as an artist, to really get your work out there. Otherwise, you know that I feel like the stereotypical starving artist is an artist who stays in their studio and doesn’t realize the importance of socializing.

Barbara Jaenicke: 55:24

You work in a cocoon for quite a while, but yeah, teaching it definitely in order to teach something to someone else, you have to figure it out yourself and make sure you know better ways of describing it. And I’m sure other people have, who have been on here have said this, that it really force reinforces your own knowledge of skills that you teach to others. I think that works in really any field.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:50

Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. And I’m curious to know also, because since you mentioned earlier, you know, the crazy hours and like all the I can imagine, you know, having to handle the business side of your two previous careers. Do you find that that has also helped you business wise in your art career?

Barbara Jaenicke: 56:12

Oh, absolutely. I think time management is definitely something you need to be good at. You know, you wouldn’t think that, you know, or the lay person would not think that for an artist, but really in any field where you’re self employed. And you know, if you’re a professional fine artist, you’re not working for a company, you’re self employed. So you have to be comfortable with any all that goes along with being self employed, and, yeah, time management skills. And I mentioned that, you know, I keep a day planner. I keep a pretty structured schedule. I keep a work day I have, you know, work hours, and I don’t mess with them, you know. I try to be kind to myself, and every once in a while, give myself a little breathing space if I’ve had an especially busy week. But you know, you get the idea. I keep, I keep a schedule. I try to work efficiently all of my painting or my studio time, my painting time, I do when I have the most brain power. So I plan those for during the week, during the bulk of the day. I plan when I do the business end of it, when you know my my brain is maybe not at full power. So you get to know yourself and know you know, when you’re a little bit more mentally alert and have the most brainpower a lot of the peripheral tasks, like, you know, varnishing, framing, that sort of thing I do, you know, on, usually the weekends, or stuff that I’m needing to bang out on the computer evenings, or first thing in the morning, evenings, weekends, that sort of thing. I try not to work seven days a week, but, you know, things spill into the weekend. I don’t mind, you know, getting on the computer for a little bit on the weekend, or, you know, that’s when I can get a couple pieces framed that need to ship out. I like to just get that done and not have that creep into my studio painting time. So I try to structure my schedule that way. And you know, anytime you’re in the business world working for any kind of company, yeah, you usually have to stay with in a schedule. Time is money, and you you know you want to be efficient with how you get work done and meet your deadlines, that sort of thing. So, yeah, I think a lot of people who have worked in the corporate world, or, you know, it’s something like advertising, where you have to stick to debt deadlines, you maybe have better time management skills.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:58

Yeah, yeah, for sure, I’ve also heard the same, you know, about people who’ve worked in illustration that has also, you know, tied to, like, deadlines and absolutely, yeah, yeah. And I, actually, I love how, you know, earlier you mentioned this is the hardest career you’ve had, because me, as a lay person who’s never experienced a corporate world, I would say the corporate world as extremely stressful. But, you know, just thinking on it and hearing, you know, discuss the time management, time management aspects, and like the the self employed aspect, right? Of being an artist, I can, I can definitely see why you would say that it’s the hardest, since it’s so a lot of it just has to do with,

Barbara Jaenicke: 59:36

you know, everybody’s, you know, needs are different, as far as you know, their financial situation, and it just depends on, you know, does this need to be income generating, you know, equivalent to if I was still working in marketing, and, you know, that’s the gist of it. If it’s, of course, much less stressful. If you know, your income doesn’t need to pay bills. Of course. Um, so I’m coming at it from, you know, it has to be a full time job that that pays the bills. And I think any artist would agree to that. So, you know, unfortunately, money always puts, you know, stress on everything. So you just have to be smart about if this is something you want to do as as your your profession that pays the bills, you have to come at it a little differently than if it’s more of a hobby that doesn’t necessarily require the same deadlines. So it just, you know, it works differently for every person in whatever the situation that they’re in. Yeah, so. But I think for those of us who are able to make it work as a profession, it is very rewarding. It is definitely a rewarding career to have, and you know, to see the results. And you know, everybody has ups and downs in it. You know, you go through phases where you know nothing selling, you know, a workshop didn’t fill the way you wanted to, that sort of thing. You have ups and downs, so you just have to plan for those times.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:12

Yeah, yeah. It actually makes me wonder, do you obviously, I mean, you’re an artist now, and this is what you love, but do you find that you get a deeper sense of fulfillment now from your daily life than you know, in different in your different careers,

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:01:29

depends on the day. It definitely depends on the day. You know, when I worked in marketing and a little bit easier schedule, I have to say, I probably had more of a social life because, because I had more time to do those things, to get together with people in the, you know, evenings and weekends and, you know, I do live, you know, when we moved here to bend, I was especially busy at that time for a variety of reasons, with, you know, the amount of workshops I was teaching, that sort of thing. And, yeah, it was just harder to, you know, make a social network for just friends, that sort of thing. It’s just, I have that, but it’s smaller. Now, I think anybody who has a busy schedule, it’s just harder to do, but when you have more time to do that, it’s maybe a little easier. You know when, when you have more of a nine to five job, you can usually just go home at the end of the day and do your own thing, doesn’t you know your work in you know, most cases, and you know it’s nice when you have a job that doesn’t creep into the week, evenings and weekends, you know, just logically, you have more time to do the fun stuff with friends that you like.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:50

Yeah, it’s easier to compartmentalize. And also, I mean, the nine to five gives you a very exact, you know, check every, every bi weekly or month, right?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:02:59

Comes with health insurance, and 401, K, usually too,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:04

I think. But, you know,

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:03:05

I think for a lot of artists, though, are, you know, other artists become our friends. I think for me, we’re a little spread out, but my artist friends are just my a lot of you know them are my closest friends, and we go on painting trips. And you know, they’re, they have really become my closest friends, but they’re not local here, which is, you know, a little sad, but, yeah, you keep in touch. You do have to work at keeping in touch with everyone. But you know, if, as you’re attending events or going on painting trips, that’s really what keeps you close. And you know, I think with any, for anyone, when you have that bond of, you know, the same profession, that really keeps you close, and so that’s important to me,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:53

yeah, yeah, totally. And actually, since you mentioned too, you know, meeting these friends, I’m guessing you’ve met them, you know, through networking or through going to these events. Do you find that, because I have heard this from many artists, you know that attending these events and going to painting societies or becoming a part of communities or competitions or these things, do you find that going to those has also helped you a lot in terms of the exposure of your work and getting your work out there.

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:04:25

Oh yeah, yeah. Certainly, you know, sometimes, at some of the events, you have collectors there, but actually just Yeah, I think it’s important even for other for your peers to know you, to get to know you. And you know, at a lot of these events, there are a lot of learning opportunities, so that’s a good thing to keep your learning going, especially if you’re doing a lot of teaching, trying to produce work on a schedule in your studio. Video. Sometimes you get away from your own learning, and so it’s important. And you know, as I’m saying this, I need to actually do it. I haven’t been able to attend a lot of these, but I want to. But yeah, it’s just to watch some of the demos. And, you know, here’s some of the talks it. It really is quite inspiring to be able to do that.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:26

I really love that you mentioned learning, and it’s because, you know, it’s so easy as an artist to, I guess, forget that you’re still learning. Or like to you think, like, Okay, I’m at a very good stage. I kind of know what I’m doing, and you do it, but it’s still important to go back and enrich and go enrich yourself, and go back to those fundamentals and kind of do a bit of, like, a, you know, kind of like a routine maintenance check on, like, yourself.

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:05:57

Yeah, it’s, it’s actually easy to fall into the trap of just thinking you know what you need to know already to do what you need to do. There are times, sometimes you forget about some of the basic stuff as you’re trying to forge ahead with getting work out of, you know, off the easel and out of your studio. Yeah, sometimes you have to take a step back and turn yourself into a student again. So, yeah, yeah. So that’s why, you know, events like that are, you know, great to attend. You know, they’re also great places to, you know, for if you’re an instructor, for teaching opportunities to talk to, you know, some of the people they’re attending. And, you know, they might keep you in mind, to bring you to a venue that sort of thing.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:49

Yeah, yeah, totally. And, you know, like, like I said, it also helps with a bit of exposure. Is there anything specific, or do you have any like, things that you’ve noticed, business wise, that have really helped your exposure as an artist, so that more people see your work?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:07:08

Yeah, that’s a good question. I, you know, I try to come at that exposure thing with from many different angles, and I think that’s just my marketing background. That’s sort of how you do it. You know, several different ways of, you know, advertising and promoting and that sort of thing. But I think, you know, early on, you know, one of the things that definitely helped me was when I was teaching back in Atlanta, out of my studio, I started keeping a blog. And at first it was purely for providing a recap to my students who attended those classes. And I, you know, I would, you know, do a quick little demo, and then they would paint, and I would help them for the duration of the class. And then, you know, after they left, I would maybe finish up or fine tune the demo and post the finished on my blog, and then I would just write up a recap of what the class covered, and, you know, that sort of thing. And what I started doing was posting the link on Facebook. Now things have changed a little bit about with links since then. But as I would, you know, I would, you know, on Facebook, I would post the the demo that I did talk about what we focused on, because every every class, I had a particular focus, a topic that we’re going to study that day. And with sending people then to my blog. I started building a following there. So I think that made a big difference with starting to, you know, make some headway with exposure. The other item that I think probably helped me was after I had started getting into shows and maybe some galleries and building a little bit of a following with my blog and on social media. I I was or I approached the pastel journal to do an article, and the editor and Hebner, when she responded, she said she already had me on her list of people to contact to be featured in an article, which I was really happy about. So I think getting into getting published in an art magazine is a great way to get some exposure, you know, out there to the readership of that publication. And so since then, I’ve, you know, I’ve been approached for articles, and I’ve also queried other publications, and, you know, maybe proposed an idea for an article. That sort of thing. So that’s always a really great way to get some exposure, if you can have your work and yourself and your writing published in an art magazine.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:13

Yeah, totally. And I love that. You know, you also just went for it and asked, right? I think that’s the other thing maybe a lot of people are afraid to do is, oh, how could I, you know, a little bit of that imposter syndrome of like, oh, but I’m not there yet. I’m not important enough. Yeah, I don’t Yeah. What do I know?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:10:31

Yeah, I have that big time and yeah, you have to just toughen up and just go for it. Yeah, yeah. I Yeah. I totally, totally get many days like that, yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:44

I think that’s one of those typical artists daily life issues where one day you look at your work and it’s like, oh, this is so bad. And then the next day, like, it’s not that bad. And then another day you’re like, oh, gosh, I can’t look at it, yeah? But it also, you know, comes down to, like, just being really honest with yourself about your skills as well. It’s like, well, if these voices that are, you know, full of doubt were true, you know, then I wouldn’t have had this opportunity, this opportunity, right? Like, there’s that balance that we have to kind of keep where you can’t go too much into being delusional about, you know, oh, I’m terrible. But you also can’t be delusional about being too good. It’s very much absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:11:28

You have to be, yeah. You have to be true to yourself and know where you are in your journey realistically. And you know, there’s, there’s nothing productive with getting down on yourself, you know, even though I do that a lot, but I, you know, I have to be realistic and say that I have accomplished things and I can still build on that. You know, artists have many setbacks. You know, lots of funny memes on social media about, you know, setbacks for artists, because they’re true. It’s, it’s, you know, everybody has self doubt, setbacks, and, you know, geez, you just, you just have to push through it. And just know you’re going to go through ruts, and you just have to work through it. You just have to start another painting, work through it. And, you know, I forget what the saying is. You know, inspiration finds you working or something like that. I can’t think right at the moment, but, and it is so true, you just, you just have to work through it. And you know, many times you have to regain your confidence. You know, real easy to lose your confidence when you go through a run of really bad paintings.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:51

Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s also where community also comes in, and the importance of having those artist friends and having people around you that are supportive, because it’s so easy to fall into that dark pit of despair as an artist and not want to come out of it, or, you know, start having this narrative about your work and yourself that is entirely untrue. So that’s the point where I would say, if you start feeling that way, you know, go get a hug. Find find a friend, get a hug, have, you know, some time off and then get back into it, right?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:13:26

Because, and we all, yeah, we all have those days, you know, I have days too. I either get just so overly frustrated or I’m just tired. We all have those days where you feel like you’re sleep way, sleepwalking through the day. And on those days, if I have framing to do, I’ll frame framing day or varnishing day, or, you know, organize the studio day, something that’s still going to, you know, be productive and help me, as I, you know, move on to the next day. So, yeah, I found that, you know, once I get too, too frustrated on a painting, I do need to stop. I do need to stop, take a breath, either do something else that needs to be done and then start fresh another day. It’s, you know, as artists, we, I think we, we sometimes can get into our heads too much, and it is quite the mind game. When you’re trying to think through a painting and it’s just not going well, you just have to keep at it. I know it’s an overused phrase to just keep at it, but that’s true.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:36

It is, yeah, I just gotta keep rowing that little boat forward, because that’s the other thing, right? If you stop, you know, moving forward, you’re going to be stuck in that frustration, right? You have to, you have to keep moving to get out of it, otherwise, you stop there. So, yeah, it’s a lot of, it’s a lot of, I think people don’t realize that. I think it’s, you know, create. Creative Work has, like you said, a bit of this intellectual challenge that comes up no matter what you do, that you have to face. I think that’s the hardest hurdle, sometimes, not so much the work itself, but it’s the mental aspect of it that can really just dig into and hurt if you’re not careful. Yeah. So yeah, totally, totally, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, do you have any final advice for someone who wants to make a living as an artist?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:15:36

Well, you know, all artists approach their careers a little bit differently. So, you know, I don’t think there’s a one size fits all for that, but I think for anyone you just the first thing you have to do is make sure you are constantly pushing your skills as high as you can. You know, I have had people ask me that when I know that their their skills aren’t where they should be to be able to generate an income from it, but but then I’ve also known other people who have the skill but really don’t put the effort into actually getting the business side of it going so that could go either way. But, you know, I think, yeah, I mean getting your skills as high as you can, if you’re not an organized person, which artists often aren’t, but it’s one of those things that it’s a skill you have to develop. You just have to become good at it. I know for me, what I lack is an innate sense of patience. That’s a skill that I’ve had to learn to be patient at the easel, and I’m still not all the time, but I’m not a patient person in other areas of my life. So that is something that you may have to at least pretend you have a skill that you may not have. So time management for anything. Again, it’s that you know self employment thing, whatever it is that you do, if you are self employed, you have to learn how to manage your time well, understand the business side of it, and constantly be very forward thinking in terms of knowing you know what opportunities are ahead, what you need to prepare for, so you don’t miss those opportunities, Whether it’s entering a show or having opportunities to get your work published. You know, any of those you want to constantly know the opportunities that are around the corner and plan for them and always have plenty of opportunities down the road that may be. You know, income generating opportunities you do, unfortunately, you do, if you want to make a living at it, you you have to consider those. You can’t just be an artist for, you know, art’s sake and not want to deal with with any of that. You have to be honest with yourself. You have to be smart about it if you do want to do this as a business, and, you know, be a self employed person, so you have to, you know, balance that those you know increased skills that you’ll continually push with what you have to do for the business side of it.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:38

Absolutely, and I really love, gosh, that you mentioned, you know, the importance of planning, right? I think, of course, a lot of artists, and especially early on, when we’re all like, playing with the idea of like, oh, I would love to be an artist. You know, we don’t really think about like, Oh, this is the season where I sell the most, or this is, this is when this event is happening. So I should, you know, start working on planning a painting, you know, that I can apply to this with. And then that hopefully goes through, and then that might lead to this other thing. And then suddenly, you know, you might have a few galleries, and it’s like, Okay, shoot, they’re all asking me to participate in a show. I need to plan my time out so that I have pieces for these shows so it, yeah, I think that’s at the point where it does get really hard, and it can be, you know, a challenge for most people. But I love that you really emphasize that because,

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:19:35

yeah, and the artists that I know who have been successful at this as a career, as their full time career, have become very good at that. They’re a little bit more business minded. And it doesn’t even mean that they came from any kind of business background. It just means that they’ve learned to become that way and think that way. For that part of their career,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:03

yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s the truth of it is, you know, the bulk of the work isn’t just painting. It’s also business, especially if you want to, if you want to make an income from it, for sure, for sure. And it can also be fun. I mean, again, going to events, meeting people, it can be fun if you, you know want it to be as well. Yeah. And then, do you have any upcoming shows, exhibitions, workshops, that you would like to promote?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:20:33

Yeah, I mean, I do have. And, well, let’s talk about, you know, the teaching first, I want to mention that, you know, I got a whole full calendar for 2026, of workshops all over the place. They’re all here in the US. And then I do also have, you know, a whole, a separate website. You can get to it from my website, but a separate website where I have videos in my book, if you see that, and then I have a book that came out last year, a book of lessons. Basically. It’s 20 some lessons, both oil and pastel. So you know you like my work and want to can’t make a workshop that I’m teaching. Can’t make it to any of those. Those are some options. As far as shows I do will have one coming up right around the corner. It opens December 4 at cole gallery in Edmonds, Washington, all have eight pieces there in a little solo show titled the mountains to the coast. So it features a lot of recent coastal scenes and mountain scenes and a range of sizes from 24 by 36 to 11 by 14. I think it’s the smallest one. They’re all those are all oil paintings. The show will be up online, I believe, by the time this is aired. And yeah, that show. You get to it from my website, Barbara Janicki do com, or you could go right to coal gallery.net is where you could see

Unknown: 1:22:23

the show up online for that. Yeah, so I’m excited about that one.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:22:28

Yes, it sounds awesome. And then do you mind telling us your social media and where people can see more of your work?

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:22:36

Sure, yeah. As far as other galleries, I’m in Mockingbird gallery right here in Bend where I live. That sure makes shipping, delivery things easier. Wonderful gallery, really glad to be in that one, as well as a loom gallery West in Phillipsburg, Montana, and also the artful deposit in Bordentown New Jersey, which is kind of a nostalgic place for me, because my very first art classes were right around the corner there in New Jersey from that gallery. And my social media is, I’m on Facebook and Instagram. I on Facebook. I’ve got a business page and a personal page. I post more of my art on the business page, which is Barbara Janicki fine art on Instagram, I’m my name shows as Barbara Courtney Janicki. You can see all my artwork there. Then my website, of course, is Barbara janicki.com I keep a newsletter that I write about once, roughly once a month. And you can, of course, sign up right at my website. And yeah, I usually try to, I’ll post upcoming shows, upcoming workshops, and every once in a while, if I have new work that I feel, you know, I might have something interesting to share about the process. I’ll, I’ll share a little bit of that on my newsletter.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:11

Yeah, well, thank you so much, Barbara. I will include all of your links in the show notes as well, so people can go check out your stuff. Sign up for the newsletter, get your book or your your painting videos and yeah, thank you for the lovely chat.

Barbara Jaenicke: 1:24:25

Well, thank you, Laura. Really appreciated it and enjoyed the conversation.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:29

Yeah, yeah. This has definitely gotten me more in, like, the business mindset, for sure, and the importance of it. I also keep an agenda. But yeah, work hours, very important. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.