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Every artist knows the romanticized version of the life of the artist: the gallery shows, the canvas, the hours of creation. But the artists who actually make it will tell you something different. They’ll tell you about the days when they didn’t feel like showing up. The months without sales. The phone calls they had to turn down. The routines they built not because they were inspired, but because inspiration alone was never going to be enough.

Today’s episode is about the one thing that quietly separates working artists from wishing artists: discipline. Because it was never about talent. Not luck. Not even passion, even though that helps. Discipline. We’ve pulled together some of the most honest moments from past guests on what it actually looks and feels like to build a creative life from the ground up and keep it standing in the long run.

Episodes Mentioned:

126 Scott Tallman Powers

137 Chris Krupinski

139 Jeff Legg

167 Stephanie Marzella

175 Emma Kalff

184 Jennifer Balkan

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Transcript:

Jennifer Balkan: 0:00

Do it because you cannot not do it.

Jeff Legg: 0:04

Talent is like here, and desire is way up here. Yeah, I mean there is an element of talent I think that is very helpful, but unless you really you know love to do it and have the desire to do it, talent really doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Stephanie Marzella: 0:23

It’s discipline. It’s 100% discipline. That’s the biggest thing I can attribute to making it in this career.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the Faso Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn about or sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. Every artist knows the romanticized version of the life of the artist; the gallery shows, the canvas, the hours of creation. But the artists who actually make it will tell you something different. They’ll tell you about the days when they didn’t feel like showing up, the months without sales, the phone calls they had to turn down, the routines they built not because they were inspired, but because inspiration alone was never going to be enough. Today’s episode is about the one thing that separates working artists from wishing artists: discipline. Because it was never about talent, not luck, not even passion. Even though that helps, discipline. We’ve pulled together some of the most honest moments from past guests on what it actually looks and feels like to build a creative life from the ground up and keep it standing in the long run. Let’s start with something simple that most artists overlook until it’s too late - deadlines. Scott Tommen Powers built his career as a gallery and show artist, and he’s very clear about what makes that possible.

Scott Tallman Powers: 1:51

It’s not easy, as you know. You know, doing workshops, doing commissions here and there. Commissions were really tough for me over the years, I do them every once in a while, but I have different, different, different rules about how I handle it. I need to have complete freedom, and you know, selling sketches and and other little things like that. But workshops is a pretty big. That’s a pretty big thing, and and I highly recommend. I highly recommend people keeping that extra. Keeping that. If you’re doing workshops, keep doing workshops. Even if you start to sell everything you paint in the galleries, keep the workshops. Keep that extra revenue stream. Always hum it. I made a mistake. I I stopped for a while, and I shouldn’t have. And so I’m starting back over these past few years of you know teaching and everything else, and and and now that I have a new studio here, I’ll be teaching out of here, and bringing people from out of state, and then locally, and also doing some little videos from around the mountains here, and other things, and doing some online stuff. But but I just think it’s so important to have that extra thing going on in the background, you know, you know, because it’s it’s a roller coaster ride, and even whenever you’re selling everything you paint, you’re not always going to sell everything you paint. You know, you’re going to have some dry spells, but if you have a good engine humming in the background, that’s that’s that would be a wise choice.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:42

Making deadlines is the floor, not the ceiling. Chris Krapinski takes it further. For her, discipline isn’t just about showing up; it’s about only saying yes when you truly mean it.

Chris Krupinski: 3:52

And a discipline-you have to have a discipline. It’s-it’s easy to get sidetracked. You know, if if you’re in the middle of something, and somebody calls and says, “Hey, you want to go do this? How many times do you think, “Oh, yeah, that sounds like fun. Let me go do this, and how many times I’d have to say,”Oh, I’m, I’d love to, but I’m in the middle of something right now. You, it’s discipline. Discipline’s so important. Again, it comes, you know, whenever I put every, whenever I committed myself to two hours a day, that’s a discipline, and you have to live up to that. If it’s there’s so many factors.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:33

Yeah, yeah, and actually, it just reminded me of a quote that I recently heard, and I loved it, and that is, self discipline is the highest form of self-respect because you know you’re you’re setting that boundary, right? If someone like like you just said, someone says, “Oh, let’s go out and go do this really quick, it’s like, “Sorry, I promised myself that I would be doing this instead, so I have to say no. But we can schedule for a time when I can say yes because. I’m busy, and I have to prioritize these things in order to make sure that I feel good and that I’m okay. Again, you can’t give from an empty cup, right?

Chris Krupinski: 5:09

You have to. Oh, absolutely.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:11

Yeah. Oh man. But yeah, there’s so much that goes into it. And one of the things that I that you mentioned that really reminded me a little bit of what you said about how you’ve been able to sell your work is also that in the graphic design aspect, it’s also word of mouth, right? It’s also people being like, “Oh, I heard about this person, and they do such an excellent job, and I can totally recommend them. And I feel like that’s that’s so common within the art world, but we forget that it’s also common and outside, you know, in worlds outside of the art world where your work speaks for itself, right? That’s again back to the it is the fact that you have to do something really well, right? You can’t sell like something that doesn’t work or doesn’t you know even look good, because that’s just putting the cart before the horse, right? The horse pulls the cart, and that’s beautiful work, and that’s how you keep it going. Oh, and then the importance of community.

Chris Krupinski: 6:07

My whole life, anything that I would do, anything, I don’t care what it was, anything. I’m not going to do it unless I can do it to the very best of my ability, because if you do it to the very best of your ability, you’re going to have a good time with it. If you just do it because oh, I committed to this, now I have to do this, you you’re not going to be happy. You’re not going to do a good job. It’s just it’s just a waste of everybody’s time. But if you if so, only say yes when you mean it.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:46

Yes, that even means to yourself.

Chris Krupinski: 6:47

You know, totally.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:51

Yeah, because there’s like I feel like I relate to that so much. Like if if you’re gonna do something, why would you do it, you know, mediocrily? You know, it’s if you’re not gonna do it with your heart, right, or with all that passion, just say no, you know. Yeah, and then you can use that energy for something else because that’s totally fine. But yeah, I totally relate to that because I feel the same about how I cook. I feel the same about how I knit, how I paint.

Chris Krupinski: 7:27

Absolutely

Laura Arango Baier: 7:29

Yeah. I would.

Chris Krupinski: 7:29

I would plan when I was working with the kids. Like I said, the on all night grad party. Well, I said yes that I’m gonna I’m gonna do this decorating committee. This is gonna be the best all night grad party ever, and in your head you have to say that to yourself so you get your whole team excited. You’re excited, and you don’t feel like you’re wasting your time, or you don’t say, “Oh gosh, I I committed to this, so now I have to do it, because that attitude with anything is going to create something that’s half baked. So if you get excited and that goes with your artwork, that goes with my graphic design. That if you commit yourself and be excited about it, and you’re going to do the best job you can, more likely you’ll succeed.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:22

That commitment to doing things fully or not at all is something Jeff Legg learned not in the studio, but running a bicycle shop. When he finally made the leap to painting full time at 30, he brought that business discipline with him.

Jeff Legg: 8:35

Yeah, I have to give my dad a lot of credit. He was very much an entrepreneur all his life, and he always encouraged me to make my own job. You know, he said that’s really the only way to find fulfillment and also really make a decent living. So he gave me the risk-taking genetics, I guess, to to do that. Just I had little kids at the time, you know, so it was a pretty big decision to go go full time without any track record at all. But I I will say that I was pretty confident that I could produce the work. It was the marketing of the work that was probably the most difficult part. But having the experience in the retail business, even though it was a bicycle shop, not art, it taught me a lot. Just about you know being disciplined and marketing and bookkeeping and you know all the nuts and bolts and you know moving parts of running a business. So there’s definitely an advantage to to have having gone through that. And I really truly think if I had started trying to be an artist and selling my work in my early 20s, let’s say, that I probably would have failed and and maybe not be an artist today, perhaps out of discouragement. So. gaining the confidence through owning a business and running a business and some maturity. You know, I was 30 years old when I decided to pull the trigger on painting full time, and so yeah, it was still not not easy at all. Lots of hours painting, lots of hours painting, and you know trying to to master the craft and always having a mindset of 100% you know, wanting to do my best work, not compromising, not not thinking thinking about quantity, but always thinking about quality, and and you know, being true to myself and truth, you know, seeking truth and beauty was always my goal, and you know, trying to communicate, you know, what I saw as beautiful, I suppose, was just really key for me. One other thing I wanted to mention that I I get the question you know from students in particular or people make a comment you know you’re just so talented you know and the there’s a conception that artists walk into a room, they wave a magic wand, and you know a painting appears. That it’s it’s essentially just all talent, and there’s no discipline or work. That’s so far from the truth. In reality, talent is like here, and desire is way up here, so yeah. I mean, there is an element of talent I think that is very helpful, but unless you really you know love to do it and have the desire to do it, that talent really doesn’t mean a whole lot. And I I knew guys in you know in high school that were like just super talented like way more talented than me, but they did they didn’t become artists because they just didn’t have the desire to do it. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there that I don’t think at all that you know you can have just a thimble full of talent and take that extremely far through discipline and hard work and some training. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with you what you said that you know there’s way too much emphasis put on originality, you know, because I don’t think there really is anything that’s original. It’s pretty much all been done, but so I have no problems with doing something that’s been done, but just do it my way, or do it, you know, do it better than what has been done in the past. I think it’s really important to think about.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:44

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, the Faso Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next Faso Show webinar is coming up on the 13th of August with our special guest Kathleen Dunphy. You can find the sign-up link in the show notes. Desire over talent-that reframe matters, especially for artists who came to their practice later in life. Stephanie Marzella speaks directly to that and to something we don’t say enough: that being an artist takes courage, not just skill.

Stephanie Marzella: 14:37

I speak to the people who can come to it a little bit later in life, you know, and that it’s not always. Oh God, I don’t know how you would say it. You know, everybody uses the word passion. You know, and of course we all have. You know, it takes a lot to be an artist. It’s it’s not an easy career, and. I equate the word discipline and drive. You know, you know, natural talent is great. You know, but you can learn. You can learn to have talent. You know, with perseverance. So, I think that that’s really important, and that it’s not always you’re not always born with it. I think artists are willing to go out on a limb, you know, because like flying without a net. It takes a lot of courage to be an artist. It takes a lot of courage for a parent to send their kid to art school too, you know, and artists are young at heart. Like they don’t, you know. I have artist friends who are, you know, almost 80 or in their 80s, and they you would never know it. There’s no. It’s like a ageless. It’s ageless. Everybody is hardworking. They’re fun. They’re adventurous. They’re still out there in nature. They’re still camping. They’re traveling. It’s a pretty unique group of people, and I’m honored to be that. That is what I I can do for a career, but I think that a lot of people may have like a misnomer that we’re just having fun, you know. Like, you know, everybody’s just like you get to paint all day, you know, and but there’s like so much more to it, and you’re not sitting in front of your easel, you know, like going. It’s you. You have. I am exhausted after a day of painting. It’s like a trillion decisions. Every mark you make is a decision, and sometimes we talked about this the other day, like you make a mark, you you do something that’s amazing, like and you’re like, I can’t even believe I just did that, and in the next minute you destroy it accidentally, and you’re just like, no one’s ever gonna see that, it doesn’t exist anymore, you know. But it’s um, I hope I leave a mark. You know, I mean, who knows? You know what’s going to go down in history anymore. But you know, I I think I’ve made my my mark, and um, I’m you know I’m I’m proud of that. So, but I I’m just lucky to be one, an artist. Your heart and soul is tied to your work, you know. Like, not underestimating, or because I’ve never really even done that many traditional jobs. But like, sometimes I think, oh, it would be nice to have a job where I’m not emotionally attached to it. You know, my work is emotional, and I put a lot of effort into it. And then you know when when you have it out there on the market too, or you know in a you have a flurry of sales and you’re flying high, or and then all of a sudden there’s a month you’re just like, what’s happening? You know, am I going to be able to pay my mortgage? You know that is not easy. So when people are like, oh, you’re an artist, you’re so lucky. I mean, they they really have no idea what what they are talking about, as far as the scope of what it takes to be an artist, and we do-I think collectively we do have a joy of life that a lot of people don’t have, and you know, we will take the time to like go chase a hurricane, you know, to take photos and to you know sit somewhere to watch sunset and to walk in the woods and do all that stuff. You know that’s like an added plus, but it takes tenacity, man. Perseverance, discipline. Discipline is the biggest thing. If you don’t have discipline, you are not going to be able to get over those hurdles when you’re questioning your talent, you know, when you haven’t had sales for a while, when social looking at social media and you know every you know everyone posts. You know, we’re not going to post, oh, having a bad day today, or you know, painted horribly today. You know, we’re gonna paint our triumphs, our accolades. You know, and sometimes that’s hard. You know, if you’re in a slump, and then you see, you know, other your friends, whatever, your colleagues winning awards or doing this or that, and it’s it’s discipline that gets you through that, and the best thing as soon as soon as you get back to the easel, and soon as you start painting, you you go into that zone, and you know that is the best remedy for any of those, especially the down moments, is to just get back to your easel. That’s. That’s the place you need to be, you know. But there’s a lot of other things it takes to be an artist too, you know. There’s a lot of the business of art, networking, shipping, creating, packing, unpacking, ordering frames, ordering supplies. Besides overcoming the financial struggles of it, I would say, and I’ve said it before in this interview. is is It’s discipline. It’s 100% discipline. That’s the biggest thing I can attribute to making it in this career, and making it through. I’m a really emotional person. I can get depressed. I can get down. All my friends know. You know, when I’m talking to them on the phone, I’m like, ah, you know. But um, it’s it’s perseverance. It’s it is it really comes down to discipline. I think that’s the. Some people say passion, whatever. I think it’s discipline. You know, it’s like you gotta you gotta get in that studio. You know, can’t be here and there, you know. Granted, if you’re juggling a job, that you know that makes it a lot harder. But it’s just, and you have to have a style now. So, so that’s one thing younger people ask me about approaching galleries. How did you do it? How did you approach galleries or whatever? And the one thing is, you have to have a body of work. I mean, that’s. I think, and it has to be. It has to look like you did it all. You have to. You know. You have to have a style. You know. You don’t want to, unless your style is like really, and you do. You can do whatever. People, dogs, landscaping, and it all. You know. You know. Some artists can do everything. I. I wish I could, but I can’t. And land. My my heart is in landscape. But the you have to have a solid body of work where it’s signature work, you know, like that. That’s who you are. Now, granted, our work is going to change gradually over a course of a career, but you can’t bring in you know approach a gallery with random different paintings or you know different mediums. You have to look like you’re solid in what you’re doing, and they have to know you’re going to be producing that kind of work, and you’re going to be bringing it in regularly. You know, you know they can’t be when you when you get to this level. Like you know, my gallery, they call me. I probably missed a call of theirs a handful of times in the 10 years they’ve been eight. I don’t know how long it’s been eight or nine years. This this gallery. I mean, they’re like, I don’t care what I’m doing when they call. They’re I’m answering the phone, you know, and whatever they need. I’m very fortunate that my gallery is here in town, and they are responsible for the majority of my sales, and I could just paint the work and drive it downtown. I don’t have to pack it or ship it. I’m spoiled, you know. But it’s I don’t know. Again, lost my train of thought, but that’s it’s you know tenacity. I don’t know, but and living with other people, sharing costs, sharing costs, you know. But the when you’re approaching galleries, like you have to. Well, when I moved here, I was represented by a lovely gallery too, and a little bit smaller. And but I would-I had no friends here at all. I didn’t know any. You know, I knew of the artists through social media, but I didn’t know any. So I went. I would go every month. Charleston has a art walk, and I would start out at the gallery that represented me, Dave Gallery, and then I would go right down every month down to the best galleries, so it’s kind of like a line of them, and I’m I made a point to make that people knew who I was. You know, I would be like, I’m new in town, blah blah blah, and I was there every month. And the part of the reason I think Reinert, I was always I always ended the art walk at their gallery because their gallery was the most fun, had great food, and they you know represented some great people, and you have to really put you know you have to put yourself out there, you have to put yourself out there in the eye you know, in that in the gallery you just never know. So I wasn’t even really sure. I I know I wanted to approach them eventually. I’m not even sure how it it kind of organically came about. But someone had seen one of their buyers who only bought work from their gallery saw my work somewhere else and was very moved by it. And then that woman who I’ve never had the privilege of meeting. Told Rein Art Gallery, you really need to check out this woman’s work. Nobody does skies like she does, and that’s how that came about. Word of mouth, you know. You’re like you never know, and they took it to heart. You know, they checked out my work, and and that, but they knew me from coming in the gallery. All the time, you know, and I had some friends represented there. So, you know, it’s it’s good to get yourself out there. It’s not easy to move when you’re in your 50s. You know, I I left friendships at you know 30 year friendships in Rhode Island and art connections. All of our friends were artists, and um, to go start over somewhere new to take a risk like that, but it often pays off. But you have to get yourself out there and like let people know who you are and that you moved there and that you exist and that you know it’s because I think a lot of artists are you know it’s weird we’re extroverts and we’re introverts, you know. Like, I am really like a homebody. You know, I like to be. I like to be in my house, and I really admire the. So many of my colleagues like travel like on a monthly basis. Like I honestly, I am very fortunate that I can make my living painting in my studio. You know, like I like to go on trips and stuff. I hate to leave my dogs. I hate, and they’re costly to leave. But like the amount of different things artists are doing to make a living, you know, teaching teaching workshops, traveling. Then we’re traveling for inspiration and ideas and. and it’s it’s it’s such a huge it’s like social media traveling teaching workshops demonstrations entering competitions I’m not I’m really not a competition enterer but all the different things it’s like it’s a lot of hats

Laura Arango Baier: 26:38

Stephanie named it plainly discipline gets you through the slumps, the comparison spiral, the dry spells. But what does discipline actually look like day to day when no one is telling you how long to work or how much to produce? Emma Kalf grapples with exactly that.

Emma Kalff: 26:56

I think it’s like staying disciplined. in the studio and like artists are notorious for like we only want to work when we’re super inspired and then when we’re not it’s like oh I don’t want to do this like and I’m I’m certainly no exception to that so I definitely have times where I’m just like really burned out. I don’t want to go in the studio. I don’t want to paint. I don’t have any exciting ideas going on. And having the the discipline and like making yourself show up is really hard. And sort of in the same vein, it’s been really hard to like all these little incalculable things, right? Like, how long is my workday supposed to be? How quantitatively, how many paintings am I supposed to produce in a month or a year, how many are supposed to go to a gallery? How many am I supposed to like hang on to for myself? How many should be, you know? It’s like when you when you work for someone else, all of those things are sort of taken out of the equation, and it’s a it is an easier life in a lot of respects because you work a set amount of hours, and then you know exactly what you’re going to be paid and when you’re going to be paid. And to navigate the art world on your own is hard because you can put in 10 hours of work on a painting and not be paid for that 10 hours for 10 years, right? Like a painting can sell 10 years later, or it can sell next week, and so navigating that alone can be it can be really tough. And also, like I think we live in this well, America where I am is like very it’s it’s super workaholic culture, and then it’s like you know you have to balance like okay how much do I want to do and how much of a break do I want to give myself and like yeah so I think the hardest part has been answering all of those like little questions about how is this supposed to go? How do I structure my workday? And how do I keep myself like disciplinary? I continue to do it, and I don’t burn myself out, but I still produce a set amount of work. Like that’s all been pretty difficult.

Laura Arango Baier: 29:38

Emma names attention perfectly: discipline without burnout. Jennifer Balkin brings it home with something that sounds almost counterintuitive. The answer isn’t grinding harder; it’s loving the process enough that the discipline stops feeling like a sacrifice.

Jennifer Balkan: 29:53

It can definitely be hard in the sense that maybe the progress. Quote whatever progress in quotes that a student hopes to make might be a little might happen a little more slowly, and that’s okay. I you know I’ve I think like that’s really we’ve got got your whole life and we’re you know I’m I’m still, I still consider myself a student of all of this. So it’s it it there’s there there are never any shortcuts, no matter what. Like no matter no matter what particular kind of of of instructional program you pursue, or maybe or not at all, and you are just on your own, trying you know learning and figuring it out. It’s time. It is time and patience and discipline and hours and like hours and hours of bad drawings, bad paintings, and you keep on going. And so, so in that sense, like there’s, it’s just literally doing it as much as possible, and that is the way to getting better, like improving, you know. Regardless, there is not. There’s, I mean, I I would say if if like I did not attend the programs that exist now didn’t when I was when I was a a much younger person, and um and I you know, I’m like, oh man, you know, like, ah, if only, if only, I would have gone to said school and done such and such, and it would have been quicker. Like, so, so I do, okay, I do believe that there is a more efficient road to improvement and to great to great improvement for sure for sure, but even with that, it’s still it’s still the hours of of studying and sketching and you know keeping a sketchbook and drawing whenever you can and all that stuff. So in that sense, you know, it’s just like it’s just you gotta love this stuff. You gotta love quote practicing because we’re always practicing, and so it’s like if you don’t love the process, then it’s it’s not worth your time because it’s too it’s too darn hard to like sustain yourself financially for you not to love the process and just love the practice of doing it, do it because you cannot not do it. It’s really hard. It’s really frustrating. There are ways easier ways to make some sustainable living, decent money. Like I’m not even talking about like oodles of money here. I’m talking about like a decent, a decent income. There are such easier ways to do it. So you just have to really want it, and and and be ready. You know, we’re talking about income sources and such. You know, like really, really be ready to embrace various income streams, and that is perhaps you know there’s something that you’ve worked at that’s not art related that you can you know you’ve become successful at and you can hold a job part time that doesn’t take too much of your mental and physical energy that you know and that during your other hours you’re too tired or too spent to be able to make art, so there’s that. Or art related, you know. But but it’s I think it’s really important to be very realistic about the fact that you’re going to have to make some money between your paint, you know, between your ups and downs of your painting sales, but while you’re maybe working on a body of work for exhibition, there’s a chunk of time that you’re doing that that you’re not necessarily like churning paintings out to sell right away. So there are those spans of time, and so that you need to make some money between that. So so anyway, I just I think it’s a very very important aspect of of you know thinking about what life will be like to try to make a living as an artist, and that you know it’s. Time, it’s time and discipline, and you know, getting back to the whole process thing, like you have to just love the act of doing it, and just you really have to love it. You have you have to love the discipline of it, and be willing to put those hours in, and try not to compare yourself to others. You know, which is really, really, really hard these days, you know. We all follow a gazillion artists and enjoy that, and see art, you know, scrolling on our feeds and such. And um, and it’s very easy to kind of get caught up in that, and and be driven, you know, by that and by like, oh, okay, I make this piece and share and see what the response is and all all that stuff and um and that can really suck the suck the life out of you as I have personally experienced and you know being willing to kind of take full on breaks and and sort of work without distraction like really try to remove all the chatter, the noise, so that you can put yourself to work, and also be ready to for to be able to be self-disciplined and self-motivated. You need that. So those are my little bits of advice, but it’s but it’s all pretty beautiful. I mean, that sounded very, very like harsh and like, but I think it’s important to you know to really be realistic. Like you know, it’s yeah, it’s it’s it’s hard work and also wonderful and beautiful.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:40

Do it because you cannot not do it. I keep coming back to that line because it reframes everything. Discipline isn’t the opposite of joy; it’s how joy survives contact with real life, with dry spells, with bills, with the bad painting days, and the comparing yourself to everyone online. Every artist in this episode has lived that, and every one of them kept going anyway. If this episode resonated with you, share it with an artist who needs to hear it today. And if you’re in the middle of a hard stretch right now, get back to the easel. That’s where you’re meant to be. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode we sat down with fine artist Tony D’Amico. Tony is a full-time representational painter and draftsman based in southern Connecticut whose work spans cityscapes, landscapes, coastal scenes, interiors, and everyday local subjects, all unified by his obsession with light, atmosphere, and strong design. He began his journey in art as a child, later studying graphic design, working as a commercial artist and technical illustrator, and eventually running his own marketing and design firm before transitioning gradually into fine art. Plein air painting transformed both how he sees and how he paints, forcing him to simplify quickly, capture specific moments in changing conditions, and infuse his studio work with authentic memories of place, light, and atmosphere. Tony is highly intentional in planning his compositions—often using thumbnails, photography, and Photoshop—to design compelling paintings that go beyond mere realism and invite viewers into a story. Drawing from his marketing background, he emphasizes that artists must learn to present and promote their work, build relationships with collectors and galleries, and accept rejection as a motivator rather than a verdict. For aspiring artists, he stresses persistence, continuous learning, good materials, honest self-critique, and the understanding that developing a true artistic voice and career can easily take a decade or more. Finally, Tony tells us about his upcoming shows and his revised book!

Tony’s FASO site:
tonydamicofineart.com/

Tony’s Social Media:
instagram.com/tonydamicofineart/

facebook.com/tony.damico.524/

Tony’s Book:
tonydamicofineart.com/books

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Transcript:

Tony DAmico: 0:00

Keep your mind open, you know. Never stop learning. Don’t be complacent, saying, “Okay, I’ve wow. Look at this masterpiece that I did, you know, because you because you can always get better. You know, be willing to put in the time, draw, draw constantly, paint constantly, you know. Again, going back to you know studying the artists that you admire, how did they do that? You know, ask yourself.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:27

Welcome to the FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a BoldBrush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with fine artist Tony D’Amico. Tony is a full-time representational painter and draftsman based in Southern Connecticut, whose work spans cityscapes, landscapes, coastal scenes, interiors, and everyday local subjects, all unified by his obsession with light, atmosphere, and strong design. He began his journey in art as a child, later studying graphic design, working as a commercial artist and technical illustrator, and eventually running his own marketing and design firm before transitioning gradually into fine art, plein air painting transformed both how he sees and how he paints, forcing him to simplify quickly, capture specific moments in changing conditions, and infuse his studio work with authentic memories of place, light, and atmosphere. Tony is highly intentional in planning his compositions, often using thumbnails, photography, and Photoshop to design compelling paintings that go beyond mere realism and invite viewers into a story. Drawing from his marketing background, he emphasizes that artists must learn to present and promote their work, build relationships with collectors and galleries, and accept rejection as a motivator rather than a verdict. For aspiring artists, he stresses persistence, continuous learning, good materials, honest self-critique, and the understanding that developing a true artistic voice and career can easily take a decade or more. Finally, Tony tells us about his upcoming shows and his revised book. Welcome, Tony, to the FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Tony DAmico: 2:16

I’m great. How are you? Thanks for having me.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:19

I’m great. I’m excited to have you because you have really interesting work experience, and of course you have gorgeous work that I’m so excited to talk about. I always love talking to illustrators who become fine artists because I swear the the level of work is insane. Just the natural composing and the color work-it’s just it is delicious, so I’m really excited to talk to you about that.

Tony DAmico: 2:43

Thank you, appreciate that.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:45

Yeah, of course. But before we do dive into your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Tony DAmico: 2:53

Well, right now, I guess I consider myself a full-time representational painter and drafts person, and I’m based in Southern Connecticut, about an hour outside New York City. Being at that location, I can easily get to like the Litchfield Hills or on the seashore or in the middle of New York City within an hour, which is which is great, and my work does it ranges from cityscapes to landscapes to coastal scenes, interiors, local subjects, kind of schizophrenic, really, I guess. But but what what ties it all together really is is I’m driven by the atmospheric. atmospheric effects of light and atmosphere and strong design, I want to paint not just a place, but the overall experience of being of being there. And I guess you know, I guess you could say it’s it’s an obsession. If I’m not at the easel, I’m usually doing something art related. You know, studying artists I admire, visiting museums, or experimenting with another medium, drawing, just anything art related. And I’m never bored because there’s always something new to learn, and I think that’s one of the greatest aspects of be about being an artist is that you know you’re never really there. You’re just trying to always to get to the next level.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:35

Yes, yeah. I like to compare it to like Tantalus just reaching out, trying to grab that fruit from the tree and can’t really reach it.

Tony DAmico: 4:43

Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:44

but you’re aiming for it. Some people like to say Sisophus, but I think that one feels a little more punishing than Tantalus.

Tony DAmico: 4:51

Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:52

yeah, yeah. I think your work definitely. You have a lot of range for sure. I wouldn’t call it schizophrenic, but definitely you’ve got. Really great range, and you can also tell that you have a lot of excitement in what you paint. It’s not just like, oh, I’m just gonna paint this because yes, it’s like no, I genuinely enjoy painting this, and that’s I definitely see that in your work, and like just even your New York paintings. It reminds me of when I lived there. You know, it’s like, oh yeah, the vibe, you know, the the feeling of being surrounded by people and the hustle and bustle, it’s you definitely captured it. So

Tony DAmico: 5:25

thanks, thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:26

Of course. And then my biggest question is, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Tony DAmico: 5:37

Art’s always been part of my life. I mean, as far back as I can remember, drawing as a as a kid, even though I didn’t really I didn’t really have many art classes in school, and I was a graphic design major in college, and then after college, I began working as a commercial artist and a technical illustrator, so you know the instructional manuals that you you know you open up something you got to put it together. I would do those those things, which are not extremely creative, but but but use some illustration skills. So in working for ad agencies and several large corporations before opening my own marketing and design firm, so so it’s always been a huge part of my huge part of my life. And then you know after selling the business, that’s that’s my design business. Then I realized that fine art really is my true passion, and it was a gradual journey. You know, built on many many hours of drawing and painting, studying painters, attending workshops, and I learned from every painting the successes and the failures, and the failures, you know, often produce my biggest breakthroughs because I realized, you know, what I did wrong and how to how to correct it, and it really is through persistence and keeping an open mind and willingness to continually improve. Yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:24

I’m. I’m really happy you mentioned that, and that ties into what you said earlier. How you’re always in a museum, you’re always learning, right? It’s not a. It’s not a stagnant career per se. But what’s funny about it too is that it’s not even really. This is gonna sound controversial. It’s not even really a career, right? I feel like we just found this trick to monetize our natural curiosity and obsession for this craft. You know,

Tony DAmico: 7:50

true. I mean, that’s that’s a bonus, right? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:53

it is.

Tony DAmico: 7:54

Yeah, when it does come.

Laura Arango Baier: 7:56

Yes, when it does. I mean, there are those moments where it feels like, oh no, I haven’t sold anything. Am I worth it? Am I good enough? You know, it’s. I feel like it’s natural too to like. Well,

Tony DAmico: 8:06

it’s it’s like a roller coaster. It’s you know, it comes and leaves.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:13

Yes, yes. And then I also wanted to ask. You do have all of this range of you know painting these gorgeous scenes, outdoors cityscapes, everything. What pulls you into those scenes? What is the thing that you you see in a place and say, ah, I need to capture that?

Tony DAmico: 8:40

I think I ask a you know simple question: What will make this scene or whatever I’m looking at what will make this a successful painting? You know, is it is there compelling light atmosphere? Is it have a you know just a natural graphic presence, design, character, and many of my subjects are just ordinary places that people walk by every day. You know, like the scene behind me. It’s just a you know, it’s the hotel. It’s a beautiful building. You know, it’s a hotel in in New York City, and when I went there to do research, I had someone asked me to paint a hotel next to this one, and my wife was with me. She goes, “Well, look at this one. This one’s great. You know, why don’t you paint that too? So I did. I painted it, but when I was done with it, it was it was just kind of boring to me, you know. And I said, you know, what can I do to improve it? So I decided to make the street wet, and you know, bounce all those bright reflections, you know, from the lights off of it. To tell a little bit more of a story, so so whether it’s you know New York Street or a quiet Connecticut marsh or a mysterious interior, I’m always looking for a scene that invites the viewers into the story that I have to tell. You know, New York City remains, you know, probably my favorite subject matter because you know every block represents a different challenge of light and you know architecture and human activity. You know, there’s a lot of stuff going on, and you kind of zone out or zone in, actually, you know, on what you’re doing, and everything else just becomes part of the sounds and sights and smells. Yeah, smells

Laura Arango Baier: 10:53

is very correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. New York does have that quality of it’s. It’s just so dynamic. There’s just so much like in there’s like micro environments in there that are so beautiful in every corner, and it just I think that’s the one thing I do miss about New York City. Not so much the hustle and bustle because it’s very noisy, but it does have a personality and it has so much range and so much dynamism in its architecture, it’s history, just everything about it is amazing. So I think it’s a perfect place to capture, which of course you already have in many paintings, which were in your first book, right?

Tony DAmico: 11:32

Thanks. Yeah. The interesting thing about when you’re painting in New York is that when you paint on the streets, most times people just go right by you. They’re they’re busy, you know. They’re you know they just you know you’re just something else that could be in their way as they’re making their way to their office or whatever. If you paint in the parks, then everybody comes up to you. It’s it’s a interesting experience, that’s for sure. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:02

yeah, yeah. It does have that thing where the people in New York they seem kind of mean, but then, but then they’re also not afraid to just talk to you. No. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s that’s very true. And then since you mentioned, you know, do painting on location. You told me that you actually credit plein air with helping you grow a lot as an artist. Do you mind telling us in what ways you grew?

Tony DAmico: 12:34

Ah, yeah, without without a doubt, I would say it it influenced the way I paint, and it really transformed the way I see. You know, painting outdoor outdoors it forces you to simplify because the light and atmospheric conditions change so rapidly. You know, you’ve got maybe you know two to three hours basically. You know, you kind of freeze that sky in your, you know, the clouds that are moving. You kind of freeze that in your brain, or if you, or you know, the waves of the ocean. Again, you just gotta, you know, pick a specific moment and get it down. But you know, every painting on location, you know, becomes a learning experience, and it’s a visual record of that specific moment in time. I like to think them think of them as visual postcards because they’re they’re record they’re recording that moment in time, you know. And then, I I think I had mentioned to you at one point that. that that I can look at a painting and tell you everything that’s happened. You know that happened that day, even though it might be five years ago. But you know, it that plein air paintings influences my studio work because when I’m back in the studio, like I said, I can recall those sights and sounds, and the real, the the true atmosphere of the day, and that those memories lend authenticity to my paintings. You know, I feel that they’re more meaningful. I guess.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:21

Yeah, yeah, definitely more alive, as in my opinion, because it’s so cool to. Because I’ve experienced that as well, where I’m working on a painting, and I remember exactly what song I was listening to on repeat for one part, or with podcasts, or what may have happened. And it’s really cool to have that, especially with plein air, because plein air, it is you know you trying to distill this experience of a moment into this tiny image, which you then have to like protect and take over to your studio to use that distilled experience and memory into your studio work, right? And then I. Also wanted to know because you do have that background in like graphic design and illustration. Do you find that you had because of your experience with illustration it helped you with plein air? Like, was it hard for you to to do plein air?

Tony DAmico: 15:16

Initially, yeah, without a doubt, sure. Because I was used to painting in a studio, and everything is organized, and you know, in front of me, and nice, neat little-not that neat, but you know, nice, organized, somewhat organized sections, right? There’s no cold weather. There’s no intense heat. There’s there are no bugs. I painted a lot in Florida. There are no alligators, no critters that you gotta watch gotta watch out for. And then you get outside, and and there’s all those things, all those things, and you really have to intensely focus on the scene that’s in front of you, and get it done within the time frame. Yeah, so that training I had before is having to work on a deadline of getting you know an illustration done. Definitely helped me outside when I’m outside painting. Yeah. And

Laura Arango Baier: 16:30

then you also mentioned because you you say that you you take a lot of what you’ve gained from plein air, and you’ve discovered your voice through that. Would you like? How are some ways that you think have also helped you find your voice? Has it also just been certain locations that you’ve realized? Oh, I actually really love this, or has it been learning something, and then that leads to, oh, maybe this is my path. How how have you realized that painting cityscapes and all these things has become like your go to for expressing your voice as an artist?

Tony DAmico: 17:12

I guess if I wasn’t painting plein air, I wouldn’t have gotten to go to some of the most beautiful places I’ve ever, you know, that I’ve ever been to. I wouldn’t have seen these, these places, and that has influenced my my studio work without a doubt. Also, you know, maybe again, that’s why I paint so many different things because I want to translate what I feel onto Canvas, and that hopefully the viewer will enjoy it as much as I did.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:54

Yeah, and then what is because we were kind of discussing this a little bit before, but what do you think is something that could help maybe someone out there who’s listening who is struggling to find their artistic voice, or maybe they’re trying to figure out, I like I don’t even know what I want to paint. Like I know I love it, but I don’t know what. What where should they start?

Tony DAmico: 18:19

What what is their passion? What do they What do they love doing? I mean, we touch upon it briefly. It’s you know, is it a beautiful sunset? You know, is it the energy of the city? Is it a dark bar scene? You know, it’s the challenge, the challenge of capturing that emotion and putting it down on in paint on a canvas. To me, to me, the possibilities are endless. I think there’s, you know, you have so many choices. I know there’s there’s painter’s block, I suppose, at some time, sometimes. But but just keep drawing, just keep practicing, just keep looking at other artists that inspire you. I’m not sure if that answers your question, but

Laura Arango Baier: 19:24

but you know it’s kind of a vague question in the first place, in a sense, because I mean you can’t really tell someone who they are; they have to kind of figure it out. And I, you know, it’s so common to have that question of like, oh, how do I find my voice as an artist, or how do I figure out what I’m meant to paint? Which I think that’s that’s such a heavy question to ask. It’s so it it feels like it’s very loaded with pressure. So I think

Tony DAmico: 19:51

I think I think a lot of I think a lot of artists will you know, and I’m I’m not putting this down, but a lot of artists. You know, they paint one thing. You know, kind of paint one subject because they’ve been successful at it. You know, and probably making you know good money at it. You know, I I personally I just couldn’t do that. You know, I don’t mean that to be a you know put down by any by any means, so, but I enjoy portraying different scenes.

Laura Arango Baier: 20:28

Yeah, yeah, and I think that’s the other thing that maybe some people who are trying to figure out their thing, maybe that’s something else they struggle with. Where it’s like, oh, I love painting this, but I also love painting that, but I also love painting that, and then it’s like, which one do I pick? And it’s like, just start with all of them, and then if you know you enjoy one more than the others, and do that one for a while, and then if you get bored, do the other one. You know, there’s so much. Well,

Tony DAmico: 20:53

to yeah, to me, they’re kind of all the same. They’re kind of the same thing. I mean, you know, if you’re painting a flower or you’re painting a building, you know. People say, “Well, how do you paint the people in these in these scenes? I said, “They’re just they’re just shapes, you know, just like you paint beautiful flowers, right? You know, that’s you know those are shapes that that work in harmony together.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:21

Wow, that’s even more abstract. It’s like I would even dare to say, like, what shapes do you like painting? Which is even more like, oh yeah, what what what shapes are the shapes of the thing that I love? Like that’s even more abstract. But that might even make it a little easier for someone out there who’s like, I don’t, I don’t know. What do I enjoy painting? Yeah, yeah. I think it’s one of those things where we have that thing where we tend to want to either we either want to identify with something really, really bad, or we don’t identify with something, you know. It’s it’s it’s such a particular thing where I’ve actually run into like the issue that’s not. I don’t know if you’ve experienced this. Where like I might approach a painting subject that I I’m like oh enthusiastic about like this is great, and then it turns out I actually don’t enjoy it that much. But you know, maybe you try to force yourself to enjoy it, and then you just don’t. And then you know you have that crisis of like, well, maybe the things that I like to look at aren’t necessarily the things I enjoy painting. You know what I mean?

Tony DAmico: 22:39

Yep. Yep. I I really plan out my paintings, you know, in in advance. I plan out the design of the painting. I plan out whether the you know the the key of the painting, whether you know a realistic point of view versus a you know low key or high key painting, and a tremendous amount of work. I actually work a lot in Photoshop and composing, composing the painting because I’ll take one you know one of my photographs and move a lot of elements around so that so that it works. If if if I don’t do that, or if I’m doing a plein air painting and I don’t spend the time to do a little thumbnail or or frame it in a photograph that I’m taking with my phone, if I don’t spend the time, that painting usually fails.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:48

Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. Because I mean, I I just from experience, you know, trying plein air. I did read a book on composition, and the first thing that it says is your painting. If you don’t compose your painting from the beginning, if you don’t know where things are going to go from the beginning, you’re probably not going to make a nice painting because you’re just putting stuff down without realizing that there are better places to put those things.

Tony DAmico: 24:19

It’s true. Yeah, Edgar Payton’s book is is like was invaluable to me, you know, when I first started out as a as a painter, and they’re still still valid today. His his his little book on composition. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:36

yeah, and that’s something else. It’s I think it’s we treat it as this mysterious thing, which kind of feels mysterious because maybe for the person who’s unaware that you know maybe they’re making a good painting because oh it just felt right to put it there. It is also good to understand why it feels right to put a certain object in a certain location in comparison to others. Same with. Color like it’s good to at least have a general idea, not be super like married to it in the sense that oh I’m only going to use this because then the painting can be boring.

Tony DAmico: 25:11

Exactly. I mean you could be a great technician and and and you know paint everything perfectly, but if it’s not compelling enough to invite that viewer in, it’s not going to be successful.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:25

Yeah, yeah. There has to be like some mystery in it, right? Like I feel like perfect composition. If you just put everything perfect, it’s almost like solving all the problems for your viewer and not allowing them to try to resolve it themselves. If that makes sense, that sounds so abstract.

Tony DAmico: 25:44

No, it’s true. Yeah, absolutely true. Well, it’s like taking, you know, might as well just take a photograph.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:50

Exactly. Yes, and I think that’s one of those things I sometimes ask myself with my work, which is like, is this something that could just be a picture, or is this something that I can play with and turn it into something more mysterious? Because if I can, then I know I have a work of art. Not to say that photography isn’t, but there’s of course a huge difference between like artistic photography and like documenting something.

Tony DAmico: 26:21

Exactly. Yeah. Very. very true yes

Laura Arango Baier: 26:25

yeah yeah and then of course you also have this background with a marketing agency and you had mentioned a little bit how you were juggling both when you were you know at the end of it and also painting what was it like for you when you became a full-time artist? What was that experience like?

Tony DAmico: 26:48

It didn’t. It didn’t happen overnight. It was, you know, my years in business. It it provided valuable experience and and stability, which after selling after I sold sold the business, I began taking oil painting classes, and and I intentionally transitioned through through a consulting period of that work, and so I so I actually had more time to paint. So I was consulting a couple days a week and painting a couple days a week. So gradually the painting just took just took over, and and that’s what I wanted to do. Thankfully, my wife was incredibly supportive, and I worked very very hard to improve my skills and exhibiting my work and building relationships with you know collectors and galleries and fellow artists. Looking back is you know the right decision, but but it doesn’t happen overnight. And a lot of times, you know, students will you know if I’m given workshops, students will say you know well how can I get that right now, you know. I said, well, you know, put 10 years into it, put 10-20, years. That’s that’s that’s what it takes, and you gotta be willing to do that.

Laura Arango Baier: 28:28

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, the FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO Show webinar is coming up on the 16th of July with our special guest Vladislav Yelisayev, you can find a sign-up link in the show notes. Yeah, I agree. I think 10 years is very reasonable. I actually at the first atelier I went to, the instructor would tell the Saudis like this is going to take 10 years, like at least 10 years for you to really like go from student into you know creating your work and like developing your work and then maybe working with a gallery if you are going to do that or if you’re going to do commissions of portraits I get 10 years is the minimum and I get it that you know today with like the internet, we’re all a lot of people are very conditioned into like instant gratification, where they think, so and so did it this fast, and it’s like no, they they probably didn’t, but you get the perception of it from the internet, from seeing like these perfect highlights of their life, or even. Just reading someone’s CV on their website, it it feels in hindsight quite fast, but it’s lots of hours in the studio and lots of hours working and taking workshops, honing your craft, talking to people, which is another thing. Yeah,

Tony DAmico: 30:19

yeah, yeah. I mean there there are prodigies out there, that’s for sure, you know, and everybody, you know, well, so you you get these comments on Facebook that said, oh, you have such a talent, and and you know, I said, you know, maybe maybe talent has a little bit to do with it, but it’s it’s I just work hard. That’s what it is.

Laura Arango Baier: 30:43

Absolutely, I totally agree. I think a lot of a lot of artists that I’ve spoken to share that view of like this. We’re we’re a little bit allergic to the word talent. It exists, like you said, but it’s it’s really so few artists who just are naturally good from the very beginning, so many of us work so freaking hard to get somewhere with our skill that when someone reduces it to talent, it feels a little not nice. So I totally understand because it’s like you just-it’s invalidating like all the years of work, all the years of study, and like crying yourself to sleep over a painting, you know.

Tony DAmico: 31:25

Well, every every successful artist that I know working today has worked and is continuing to work very very hard. So, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 31:36

Yes. Yeah. I mean, the talent, I guess, is probably the craziest. obsession for it-that that could be the talent.

Tony DAmico: 31:47

I guess that’s a good way of nice way of putting it, right? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 31:50

like things. Could be worse

Tony DAmico: 31:52

obsessions, though, right?

Laura Arango Baier: 31:55

So yeah, my talent is secret. I’m secretly obsessed with this. I’m I’m not great at it, but I’m trying. Oh man, yeah. And then I also wanted to ask because you you ran this business and you had very great, huge clients who were actually some of your big clients. What did you learn from running this business that you were able to pull into running your artistic business, like what really helped you?

Tony DAmico: 32:32

An artist can be incredibly talented, right? Use that word again, talented. But but if if people never have the opportunity to discover that work, it it can’t have the impact that it deserves. You have to market, you know, and that’s what I that’s what I’ve learned. Whether you know whether I was working on a Pepsi campaign and they come out with a new product, and we’d be charged with with coming up coming up with with a promotional campaign for it, and then going out and doing these experiences throughout the country, sampling sampling the product. So so you got to get that product in front of the potential buyer, right, and and marketing doesn’t replace good painting. Still has to be good painting, right? But it just simply helps it find the right home.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:41

Absolutely,

Tony DAmico: 33:42

and and and that’s that was that’s kind of key how I brought that back and how I can apply that into my art my art career.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:54

Yeah, but the

Tony DAmico: 33:55

only thing I gotta say and just add this little addendum here when I was working in advertising, I’d come up with a campaign, and I would show maybe three versions of this campaign. The client says, “No, I don’t, I don’t like these. You know, I don’t like them. And I’m saying, “Okay, well, they’re paying for it, so I’ll just come up with another one, and here’s another one, you know, and the rejection didn’t bother me, you know, at all. It’s a little harder when it’s your own personal work, and if someone doesn’t like it or it doesn’t get in a show or whatever, but it also is a motivator because it motivates me to do better, and what I could do to get, you know, get that accepted next time.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:48

Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, I know, like you said, like a lot of illustrators, they get a lot of stuff rejected, but of course, since it’s the client’s vision, and you’re trying to align. Like essentially, you’re like the the the hand that moves like their vision into a paper instead of your own vision. Normally, it’s a little bit easier to disconnect yourself from the result because it’s whatever the client wants. But I think there is this level of vulnerability we have with our own work that it does our

Tony DAmico: 35:22

soul. Our soul is in that

Laura Arango Baier: 35:24

exactly, and it hurts. It hurts when it feels invalidated or rejected, or it feels that way. That’s and I say feels that way because just because you know your piece doesn’t get selected for a group show or for some sort of event exhibition whatever it doesn’t always have to do with the work. Like yeah, you should be producing really beautiful work, but oftentimes it’s just oh maybe like there were just some other like maybe the people who were selecting the pieces just didn’t have the eye that would appreciate your work, or maybe like you know there’s like other stuff going on that you know, oh well, my work doesn’t get picked, and that has not so much to do with the person all the time, but it is important to still make really good work for sure.

Tony DAmico: 36:12

Yeah, for sure. I mean, one thing doesn’t get into one show, wins an award in another show. So it’s a different years

Laura Arango Baier: 36:20

later. I’ve also heard that some person, some person might, you know, have a painting that they put their heart and soul into, and it just keeps getting rejected, rejected, rejected, and then one year it gets picked for some award, like many years down the line, and it’s like, oh, finally, you know, it got appreciated. It’s a little bit like a musician that wasn’t so popular in their time, and then suddenly, oh, now we can appreciate their music. Maybe they were just a little ahead of their time, you know.

Tony DAmico: 36:49

An artist friend of mine said there, there’s a buyer for every painting.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:56

Usually, yeah, and I think that’s the other beautiful thing is there’s room for all of us. I know a lot of people treat it in a competitive aspect, which okay if it’s healthy and it gets you going and doing your stuff, sure. But there’s room for everyone. I mean, not not everyone has the same vision. Not everyone paints exactly the same. We might have similarities because that’s inevitable, especially if you do study at an academy or you go to a specific school, it takes time to develop yourself out of like painting like all of your classmates after some time. But there’s room for all of us. I mean, it’s there’s a lot of people on Earth. I think we forget that.

Tony DAmico: 37:38

And I and I think the artist community really in general, was very, very supportive, you know, very supportive. Yeah, maybe there’s maybe there is a little touch of competition, but but for the most part, it’s you know my French friendships that I’ve you know made over the years is you know very very important to me.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:59

Yeah, yeah, and that’s one of those other things that I like to really emphasize to people who are looking to become artists or are on the path and they’re just sitting in their studio, you know, hoping for an opportunity to land on their lap. It’s like, yeah, but have do you go out and talk to other artists? Do you socialize with other artists, do you go to events? Do you go to exhibitions? If you don’t do that, you’re probably not gonna have some random thing landing on your lap because you’re not, like you said, even with marketing, you’re not putting yourself out there.

Tony DAmico: 38:32

Right.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:33

Yeah, you need to be front of mind. You need to be present. Otherwise, no one’s no one’s gonna know the guy that’s hiding in the basement over there, you know, hiding their work because that’s how

Tony DAmico: 38:47

that’s how the market is that the industry has changed, and that you’re just not an artist. You are, you know, we all have to be marketers as well. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 38:59

yeah, yeah, and I actually wanted to ask you. It’s a little bit of a side question, but do you find that as an artist you are the product, or is it the artwork that’s also the product? Because I feel like there’s always a little bit of like overlap there, where a lot of collectors might buy because they like the artist, not just the painting. Like they have a connection to the artist, and some people might buy because they like the work, but they don’t really care to know the artist. Have you experienced that? Is

Tony DAmico: 39:29

there a is there a box that’s all the above? Because because because it it could be you know it could be all the above. I mean, to me, you know, every painting or drawing that I do represents me. It’s not necessarily a painting on its own. Again, my whole heart and soul goes into that into that work. You know, it’s infused into that work. Whether they know me. Or they don’t know me, you know. That’s what they’re. That’s what they’re buying.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:08

Yeah. And now that you mention that too, do you find that having worked directly, you know, with clients in your business before, did that help you also learn to talk to like potential buyers and collectors?

Tony DAmico: 40:21

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess I would say that I’m probably more of an introvert than an extrovert. But, but, but yeah, it it it forced me to you know to have this conversation, and some of the practices that we used, especially at Pepsi, we had to do a lot of presentations when we worked at at PepsiCo, and actually actually sent us all to an actor acting school to to teach us how to give presentations and discuss, yeah, have discussions, which was again extremely extremely helpful, and and that that works in especially in a in a gallery opening setting. If you have if you’re fortunate enough to have some solo shows, well, you’re you’re you’re expected by the gallery to to do that, you know, to to converse with potential clients, collectors, and and you know some people might have fear about that, but you know most people are nice. They generally are interested in what you’re doing, so it’s easy to talk about that.

Laura Arango Baier: 41:47

Definitely, like it. Let’s say that someone wants to. Let’s say someone’s having like a show and they want to approach a potential collector who’s looking at painting. Like, how would you recommend that an artist approaches them?

Tony DAmico: 42:02

I just strike up a conversation to to you know to find out what interests them, you know what they’re what they’re all about, and be a good listener. Be a good listener because you’ll find that that they’re the ones that will do most of the talking, you know, and and and you know you’ll probably walk away from that making a new friend. Maybe they won’t buy your painting right away, but you never know down the road could happen. So, and just make sure to get all their information. You know that’s important to keep keep good records regarding that stuff. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:43

yeah, yeah, definitely. And then for you currently, how how do you find new collectors, or do you just maintain your relationships with your long term collectors? Like, what has helped you the most to get in contact with potential collectors and collectors?

Tony DAmico: 43:01

Yeah, I’ve had a lot of repeat buyers over the years, which I’m very very grateful for. The galleries do a fantastic job. The galleries that I have, I’m fortunate to be represented by. And then, and then also new exhibitions. I mean, they have the standard national exhibitions, you know, OPA and NOAPs and and AIS. But there’s you know there’s other ones out there like you know Art Renewal Center, the Alamonara. I think that’s how you pronounce it. Prize, enter you know, enter these shows. Why not? You know, it’s just more exposure for you. And obviously, my website. You know, if I can drive people to my website from Facebook or Instagram, a lot of people have bought off my website. A lot of people have bought straight off Facebook, you know, or Instagram. And you know, the the fascinating thing is is is how much people really enjoy hearing the stories behind the paintings and seeing the creative process. Involve them in the creative process. I like putting in progress paintings out there because you know they you know I always get a great response to those. One time, this is a plein air plein air event. Someone came up behind me, and they were amazed at the at the painting, and they said, “Did you paint that by number? And they, you know, I’m I’m in front of the subject, and I’m painting, and they asked me, “Did I paint by number? And and I thought it was someone joking around. I looked around. It was like a you know, kind of a serious family, husband, wife, and the little kids. But I just thought that was that was a funny question. You know, the collectors-they’re not simply buying a painting; they’re connecting with the artists and the experience that inspired it, right?

Laura Arango Baier: 45:20

Yeah, yeah, and oftentimes they’re not super well versed and and how it’s done, which I think is also why they like the. It feels probably mystical to them, like, ooh, how do they do this? Yeah, you feel like

Tony DAmico: 45:34

you’re you’re performing a magic act in front of them. It’s you know, unless unless they come and look at it like right when I start out, and then then you see them walk away with in disgust. But normally, when I paint outside, I’ll have some finished samples with me, so they say they end up looking like that. You know,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:53

that’s smart.

Tony DAmico: 45:54

Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:54

smart. Yeah, I think they’re they’re curious up to a point, unless they’re you know like also artists or like artists at heart that maybe they do some hobby painting and they collect as well, which that’s something else that I’ve encountered. But for the most part, I think a lot of collectors are just like, this is sorcery. You’re hired. It’s like the

Unknown: 46:18

yeah the

Laura Arango Baier: 46:19

magician that they pick to make images on flat surfaces, which does always sound like magic.

Tony DAmico: 46:26

Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:26

Oh man. Yeah. But then, did you also have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full-time artist?

Tony DAmico: 46:38

Keep your mind open. You know, never stop learning. Don’t be complacent, saying, “Okay, I’ve wow, look at this masterpiece that I did. You know, because you because you can always get better. You know, be willing to put in the time, draw, draw constantly, paint constantly. You know, again, going back to you know studying the artists that you admire, how did they do that? You know, ask yourself. You know, you take workshops with the best artists that you can possibly afford. Buy good materials. Don’t buy cheap materials. You know, I know sometimes people can’t do that, but you know, don’t buy three cheap brushes. Buy one good one. You know, so and then critique, critique your way. You know, critique honestly. Critique your work on it honestly. Don’t be discouraged by failure rejection. You know, use that to do something better. To go on and say, “I’ll show them. I’ll get in that next show. But like I said, we we talk talent helps, but it’s really discipline and observation, work ethic. That and you know, many hours at the easel that will build a satisfying career.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:07

Definitely, yeah. That discipline of showing up and just doing it, even if you don’t feel like it.

Tony DAmico: 48:16

Right. I mean, again, it applies to any anything you do, right? If you’re if you’re you know playing sports or playing a musical instrument, got to put that time in.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:29

Yeah, definitely. Or else it’s you know you’re you’ll just keep putting it aside. Yeah, and then I want to hear about your book a little bit more. Do you mind telling us about

Tony DAmico: 48:43

it? No, no, no. Thanks. The revised edition will expand well beyond the New York City work, which that previous book was showcased, and it’ll include more of my more my plein air work and the thought process behind it, but I think it also reflects maybe how I’ve grown as a painter over the years, and it’s not a it’s not necessarily a how to book. You know, it’s not teaching technique. It’s more of a showcase on how I get from you know plein air to studio and yeah that kind of that kind of sums it up. I’m also excited that that a couple things I’m going to be exhibiting in the Treasures of the West exhibition at Loom Gallery, the Loom Gallery Fine Art in Philipsburg, Montana, and then I’ve got a couple of my paintings appearing in Plein Air Magazine and and Modern Impressions Magazine next month. So. So it’s gratifying to see it work reach a broader audience.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:06

Yeah, yeah, very exciting.

Tony DAmico: 50:09

Yeah, it’s good.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:10

Yeah, all good. Yes, and then if someone wanted to see your work, where could they?

Tony DAmico: 50:20

Best place is a website. I make an effort to keep it keep it up to date. People can browse through my paintings and my drawings. They can read articles or see receive any updates regarding the book or what is currently available, what’s sold. I’m also very active on Facebook and Instagram, and I regularly share paintings and the works in progress there, and kind of behind the behind the scenes glimpses or if there’s any backstories, whatever, you know. But you know, most of all, I just gotta say, you know, I’m very grateful for all the wonderful teachers and supportive galleries that I’ve had throughout the years, my my artist friends and collectors, I don’t take any of it for granted, you know. And you know, I’m excited to see what the next chapter is, you know, because I continue to learn and and and hopes of becoming a better painter.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:26

And I think that’s the other interesting thing about a career as an artist is that we think we can have this vision, this far distant vision of what our work is going to be like, but sometimes it it changes a lot, and you end up painting something you would have never expected, and it ends up being a lot better than anything you could have ever imagined. Oh,

Tony DAmico: 51:49

that’s that’s absolutely it’s ever evolving, and again, that’s the that’s the part that keeps keeps us interesting, interested, you know, and interesting. It’s it’s again. I never take it never take it for granted, and I’m very grateful.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:08

Yeah. Oh, and then do you mind telling us what your website is?

Tony DAmico: 52:12

Oh yeah, sure. It’s tonydamiko. com. I’m sorry, TonyDmicoFineart. com. And my Instagram is again Tony D’Amico Fine Art.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:30

Awesome, and then I will be including all your links in the show notes as well for our listeners to go check out your gorgeous work, and to maybe look at signing up for newsletter to see if they maybe want to get a copy of your book, if they love New York City and also love your paintings, and yeah, thank you so much, Tony, for for the chat. I think it’s. I always hear something that I need to hear from each artist, and I I’m very grateful that I get to hear your advice and see your perspective and your view on things. So thank you.

Tony DAmico: 53:01

Oh, thank you, Laura. It was indeed a you know great pleasure talking with you today. Thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:08

Of course. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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To start off the season, we sat down with fine artist and former software developer Maureen Dunlap. Maureen shares how a childhood immersed in traditional oil painting, guided by mentor Arthur Maynard, eventually wound its way through typography, photo typesetting, and front-end development before circling back to a full-time art career. Maureen talks about rebuilding her painting practice after years away, moving from fast alla prima pieces to highly detailed, indirect paintings that draw on Art Nouveau, Art Deco, Pre-Raphaelite, and Baroque influences. She describes her richly layered seascapes, lace-draped still lifes, and narrative figurative works that often live in ornate vintage or trompe l’oeil frames, all infused with her whimsical titles and maximalist sensibility. Maureen also opens up about the realities of being a full-time artist later in life, balancing joy and financial stability, diversifying income with small works and jewelry, navigating social media and online sales, and her growing desire to teach the next generation of painters.

Maureen’s FASO site:
maureendunlap.com/

Maureen’s Social Media:
facebook.com/profile.php?id=100083217888057
instagram.com/maureenjdunlap

Maureen’s Jewelry Store:
instagram.com/the.wonder.cabinet

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Transcript:

Maureen Dunlap: 0:00

You have to set yourself apart in some way, because there you’re right now, you’re like a drop in the ocean of artists. You look, just look on Instagram, but yeah, I mean, I love the academic style, but there’s a lot of people doing it, but you got to make yours different. I like to make mine somewhat different in some way, so you got to figure that out.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:27

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that Fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. To start off the season, we sat down with fine artist and former software developer Maureen Dunlap. Maureen shares how a childhood immersed in traditional oil painting, guided by mentor Arthur Maynard eventually wound its way through typography, phototypesetting, and front-end development before circling back to a full-time art career. Maureen talks about rebuilding her painting practice after years away, moving from fast alla prima pieces to highly detailed indirect paintings that draw on Art Nouveau, Art Deco, Pre-Raphaelite, and Baroque influences, she describes her richly layered seascapes, lace-draped still lives, and narrative figurative works that often live in ornate vintage or trompe l’oeil frames, all infused with her whimsical titles and maximalist sensibility. Maureen also opens up about the realities of being a full-time artist later in life, balancing joy and financial stability, diversifying income with small works and jewelry, navigating social media and online sales, and her growing desire to teach the next generation of painters, reminding us all to set yourself apart as an artist. Finally, Maureen tells us about her upcoming group show in the main hallway of Golden Belt Arts in Durham, North Carolina, running October through December. Welcome, Maureen, to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

Maureen Dunlap: 2:06

I’m very good. Thank you very much for having me.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:09

Yeah, I’m excited to have you, because the first thing, of course, that I notice when I see your work is how absolutely gorgeous it is. I love your reinterpretation of that Art Nouveau style, and just, it just feels like you have a very whimsical personality.

Maureen Dunlap: 2:26

I do. My friends will tell you that,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:29

yeah. And I love that so much. So, I’m excited to talk to you about that, because maybe there’s someone out there who feels a little bit shy, and it’s okay to be whimsical. It’s totally okay to be whimsical. Oh, yeah, let it out in your work, because you know there’s more to life. Be free, but yeah, so before we talk more about your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit more about who you are and what you do?

Maureen Dunlap: 2:53

Okay, well, first I was an artist at age 10, then I became a mom, then I became a software developer, then an artist and crafter. So, those are the steps. There was a period in my life of maybe 15 years when I didn’t even pick up a brush, but yeah, so that was a little challenging. I like you said, I like to be whimsical. I have a good sense of humor. I usually let it out at the most inappropriate times, and I really enjoy doing that with when I name my paintings. I try to think of something different to name them, you know, just you have to try to set yourself apart, you know. So, anyway, yeah, I can. I’ll do that. I’ll show you some of my work, because I have my iPad. I can reverse it and show you around the room. I’m in my studio right now. Let’s see, so I began my journey when, like I said, I was 10 years old. My mother sent me to book - I lived in New Jersey. She took me to the Ridgewood Art Association, which is now called the Ridgewood Art Institute, and I started taking young people’s lessons, mostly learning still life, learning how to use oil paints, and they had a very set curriculum or methodology of teaching art, because the founder of the Art Institute Art Association at the time, it was called the Barn, because it was actually in a big barn, and the upstairs of the barn had, you know, the gabled roof, and also skylights on the north side, so my that man that started it, his name was Arthur Maynard, he later became my teacher, as when I was a young. Adult after high school, he studied with Frank Vincent Du Monde of the Art Institute of the Art Students League in New York, so truly prestigious guy, but he basically taught me everything I know. His main focus was not how to paint, but why, like, why are we painting something a certain way? He was a big proponent of natural light, prismatic palette. He would basically talk about the way light hits an object, and why it looks a certain way. In other words, you’re not painting this apple, you’re painting the light that’s hitting the apple. And it was very, very scientific in a way, which I, it appealed to me. So I started, you know, doing a lot of still lifes, and also a lot of portraits when I became, you know, a teenager, and after high school I studied there for three years before moving on to art, art school, college, and during those three years it was portraits, how to do portraits, and I became a portrait painter. I really enjoyed doing that. I still love doing portraits, and I became pretty good at it. I mean, I was able to start doing commissions in my 20s, so you know that was fun. It was.. I started thinking, like, why doesn’t everybody do this? This is like really easy for me, because I already know the scientific reason for why things look a certain way. I know that you know there’s more blood in the nose and the and the cheeks than there is in the chin and the forehead. I mean, there’s this all this stuff that’s so interesting. So then I went to the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts, which is in Philadelphia, and when I got there, it started out very classical. We would, we didn’t even start painting the first semester, it was cast drawing, going into these rooms full of these statues and trying to draw those exactly right, but when it came to painting, they would just put up a model and turn on all the fluorescent lights. I was horrified. I’m like, what? What are you doing? Why are you doing that? Nobody said anything. I was like, nobody’s noticing this. No, I was just like in my own world there. So you’re like, okay, I’ll do my best, and that became a challenge, and then during critiques, the teachers were just not interested in teaching traditional painting, they, it was the age of abstract expressionism, this is back in the 70s and so I kind of got disillusioned there and decided I need to go get some other skills where I can get a job. There was the Art Institute of Philadelphia, right down the street from where the academy was, and I enrolled there for illustration, typography, graphic design, layout, all those kind of things that were used, like in print shops and magazines, newspapers, things that you know is also creative, and I thought this is fine. I mean, I can still paint my own stuff in my own way, but I can also get a job. So, I did do that. I became actually a photo typesetter back in that day, that it was before, you know, WYSIWYG, and you know, the internet was even, was not even there, and so I was learning typesetting at the time was a ginormous machine, the size of the room, and a black, a black screen, no WYSIWYG, it was like typing in code, and I thought, oh, this is cool, because I always like puzzles, I like, you know, anything that you could have to try to figure out, and those typesetting machines were really complex, as far as they had a lot of keys on the keyboard for letting secondary leading style justification, all this stuff, and you had to type the code, and when it prints out, you say, “Okay, I did something wrong here, and you go back and fix the code. So that became the impetus for me in the 90s to learn how to code for the internet. I thought, “This is a piece of cake, because I was looking at those, the internet code, the HTML. Yeah, and I thought this is so easy. I started my own little web design business at that time. I had kids, and I thought, you know, I’m really going like in a totally different direction here, but it’s still kind of similar. It’s adjacent to what I like to do, but I like doing that too. So, eventually I got better at doing that. Cut to the year 2000 I got hired at Cisco Systems here in North Carolina to work on their intranet, and that was like a huge experience, a huge company with a lot of people and very complex systems, and that was a challenge again, another big challenge. So that I stayed there for 11 years, and then there was a layoff, because you know, you always get caught up in these layoffs, so I had to go to another small company, and after that it was like two or three small companies, which were really sweet and nice and comfortable with like five or six people in the company, you know. I love that, as opposed to 70,000 people worldwide, so I got hired as a front-end developer, which is basically writing code on the back end to make the front end look good. So, in other words, it’s like making art on the front of a computer. Another very complicated, not too complicated, really, but very creative endeavor. so all in all, I was doing that kind of work for about 20 years, and then in 2018 I get laid off from my final company, and I was already like 65 or 63 something like that, and my boyfriend and I took a trip to Europe for a couple weeks, when I came back, suddenly Covid hit, so I thought, well, I’ll just go in my spare bedroom at home and paint, got nothing else to do, I joined Daily Paint Works. I sold a bunch of little tiny, you know, ocean paintings. I started doing my own still lifes. I would.. I didn’t have a good window. Let me take a drink, so I would set up these still lives and buy a bunch of silk flowers, because I, we didn’t have any real flowers, and I didn’t want to, you know, you can reuse the silk flowers and just paint them to look real, so I would do that, and then I would take that photo and bring it into a photo editing app on my computer because I’m very tech savvy now, and like, if I had two or three peonies, I could copy and paste and make seven or eight peonies, so I could do a background of something that wasn’t really there, and I, you know, a shadow, and I would just really compose the picture pixel perfect, and then use that as my reference for a bunch of my still lifes. And about that time I did sign up with FASO, and I actually started selling my work. I don’t know how people found me, but they would, few people like out in Colorado and around the country would purchase these flower paintings, and I also had a bunch of friends on Facebook that became a very good selling opportunity for me, because I’m just post my paintings and I’d get these messages, how much do you want for it, and I’d sell it, sell those paintings. So I think this is awesome, but I kind of got tired of being in my own little room, and so I had found out about this studio space that I, where I work now, which is Golden Belt Arts, and it’s in Durham, North Carolina, in the downtown area, and we have 25 different art studios, most of them are this size, which is 12 by 12, not very big, but still you’re working with other artists, but even though that’s the case, they didn’t have very many people here because of Covid, so they were just like a skeleton crew, kind of, and I felt like safe there, because there’s hardly anyone here. I’m in my own little room, everybody was trying to like prevent from getting COVID, COVID, and so there was this place has a lot of a few studios that are the prime studios with skylights and a. Been tops, and there there was one available, and I was able to move into this one. Now that’s, you know, it’s all different now. People like battling to get these, and I was really lucky that that happened at that time. So, anyway, I don’t know where I’m going with this long rambling question that you asked me, but basically that’s where I am now. As far as the my style, I kind of got a little tired of the flower paint, not tired, but I wanted to do something else, and I began to do a lot of seascapes, ocean paintings, you might have seen them on my website. I sold so many of those, and I just.. I really wanted to make it so realistic that the person felt like they were in the water, so I would find these pictures online of ocean waves with, like, the sun coming through the water, and I just really ham it up with my paintings, and I wanted, you know, usually didn’t put a beach, I would put it like just the wave, and those I had hosts, my whole studio was full of waves at that time, so that was that was a fun period for me. Then I decided, let me try something else, and I thought, what is it that will set me apart? What can I do that other people aren’t doing? I mean, that’s that’s a challenge for artists that are trying to promote their work. I can still do still lifes, and I do. I started getting portrait commissions, which are really excellent, but I thought, let me, let me back up a little bit. When I first came in here and started oil painting again, I was really rusty at first, after years and years of not painting, and the paintings were just not good. I’m like, oh my god, I’ve lost my touch. So I took me a little while, eventually I was back on the saddle, as they say, and I realized that when I was first taught to paint, we would always paint all of Prima, and I love that style - it’s fresh and easy, and just really can be very beautiful. However, I ended up accumulating a lot of work because I was fast, and I could do a painting a day, and I thought, this is this is not sustainable, because I got to buy more canvas, more paint. Let me slow down, see how far can I take it. And I started doing research about indirect painting, doing it under painting, doing, you know, the next layer, the next layer, and I thought, okay, this is something new and different, and I decided to challenge myself to see how far can I take a painting, like I can do this vase on a tablecloth with the flowers, but let me put a lace tablecloth and really try to get into those details, and I’ve just decided this is this is it. I’m in the zone. I could be here all day, and it would just be so much fun trying to make everything picture perfect. And people started really commenting, like, “Wow, you know, they’ll come in here and say everything just pops, the colors, and that that’s because I, I try to first of all, I use the full value range, I stay in the middle range at first, you know, block in with just a very mid tone of everything, then you know, I started adding more darks and more lights, and just building out the form the way I was taught by Arthur Maynard, and I would start putting in really, really dark darks and really bright brights, and see, and the colors, I said, how intense can I make this red dress, or this, whatever the color was, and so I would push it as high as I could to really make it like a form, so it’s the contrast and the vibrancy of the colors that really makes things pop, and I have to explain that some people, they say, “How do you do it? How do you do it? Well, it’s not that hard. It’s just you got to get out of that middle zone. I see a lot of painting painters that I feel like they’re kind of afraid to use black on their palette, which a lot of people say, “Oh, never use black on. Palette, but that’s like one of my main colors to make something go back and make something come forward, and that’s for indoor paint, not for outdoors, because when you go back, you have to do gray things out, but so that’s it, and I started deciding I love these nostalgic art movements, like Art Nouveau, Art Deco, Mookup, Maxfield Parish, Sargent, and the Baroque period, where it was all this gold stuff, the Pre-Raphaelites. I mean, I just started taking ideas from those things, and that’s that’s been a big, very popular thing for me. I try to find these ornate picture frames to go with them. That’s really hard to find, but I, you know, I find some of them on Facebook Marketplace, which usually they’re mirrors. I have to knock the mirror out and take the frame, but yeah, people comment on that all the time, like those frames. I love the frame, so I’ve just loved this environment. I’m a maximalist, I’m not a minimalist person. My house is like that too, you know? I overdo everything. It’s like, why do when you can overdo? Right. In fact, one of my paintings is called Too Much Is Never Enough. I just have fun with it. This, I’m starting a new series right now, which is based on the Pre-Raphaelites. It’s, it’s a series of four paintings, and it’s going to be the women doing serene activities, like reading a book, and it’s all with a lot of flowers around it, and of course, I like to do flowers too, to do people, so that’s kind of a thing I’m working on. I, I did one series a couple years ago of based on Mooka. I did my own interpretation of like the four seasons, so I did a winter one, which was basically the Snow Queen, and then spring, summer, fall, and I had all four of them in a grid on my wall, and somebody bought all four of them. That was like my biggest.. I was like, oh my god, I was so excited. So I really liked the idea of having one painting talk to the next and creating an environment like that,

Laura Arango Baier: 22:44

yeah, yeah, and that can happen where someone sees the set and they’re like, I can’t separate the set, that would be awful, you got to take all of them, you know, girls got to stay together, yes, they have to stick together, yeah, and then you mentioned, you know, when you got back into painting, and you said that you know it’s kind of tough at first, because you kind of, you know, we’re rusty. What, what, what’s something you did that really helped you get back into the zone?

Maureen Dunlap: 23:12

I made a lot of mistakes, a lot of bad paintings, started really focusing on my compositions better. and again slowing down, because the first pass of a painting can look horrible. I mean, you know, you can, you can block in a painting, and it, and a lot of people think, well, that’s it. I guess I’m not a good painter, because it looks like a kid did this well. Yes, it does, but that’s you got to have that under layer, that’s your under painting. So you pretty much, I mean, if you have decent composition, you can save a lot of, a lot of work that you think is no good.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:56

Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, and I have struggled with that too, where it’s like you have like four things down, it’s like this is the worst thing I’ve ever

Maureen Dunlap: 24:05

done. I know,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:06

yeah, because you haven’t finished, right? You haven’t developed it exactly. I like that you mentioned that, because that also invites a little bit more of like empathy with yourself and slowing down that hyper criticism, which is something that most artists tend to have, we tend to be very, very critical of our work. We tend to hold ourselves to, like, a standard that’s like so extreme that sometimes I’m like, who even reaches that standard? I know, and

Maureen Dunlap: 24:32

it’s like, can I save this? I want to have this painting done, but what do I have to do? You know, you really have to contemplate it. Sometimes you put it down for a while, start something else.

Laura Arango Baier: 24:42

Yeah, yeah, and be kind to yourself about it too, because it’s not worth breaking yourself down, because then you’re not going to want to paint ever again. And even,

Maureen Dunlap: 24:50

you know, some paintings that I have spent a lot of time on, still I don’t like them, so doesn’t happen that often, but you know, you don’t, you don’t have. Do every one of them be not everyone’s going to be a masterpiece.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:04

Yes, yeah, and that’s that’s the reality, I think. A lot of painters, majority of painters, have like the either a burn pile or, you know, paintings that we set aside to look at later to see if they can recycle the canvas or maybe continue on it, because those are some options, but yeah, then I wanted to ask you also, since you did software development, is there anything specific from software development, like maybe like the procedure that you did, or anything that you find yourself kind of reflecting a bit when you work on your creative work, or is it totally different, is there? Like, no, it’s not

Maureen Dunlap: 25:42

totally different. The coding, of course, probably doesn’t really translate, but I did also do quite a bit of like photo editing, video editing, so in that respect, you know, social media, of course, the bane of everyone’s existence, trying to, trying to, you know, have, find the time to make these reels and these photos, so for me that’s once I do get into doing that, I really enjoy that too, like I’ll make some videos and really enjoy it, but then that’s like a day I spent doing that, so but but that’s easier for me than it is for other people, especially people my age, that just like, oh, I don’t know how to use a computer, I don’t know, can you help me figure this out, you know, I’m always happy to help people, but yeah, those kind of things, maybe the persistence, because I would have to make sure I got the job done of what was I was trying to make work to have to do a lot of research and redoing and that kind of thing made me be, you know, a very attention to detail, which is critical in software development, and I find that I’m very detail-oriented now in my painting.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:15

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out, ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 16th of July with our special guest, Vladislav Yelisaev. You can find a sign-up link in the show notes. Yeah, because I mean, if you have to hunt down a tiny mistake in code, yeah, really, really specific, yeah. And it’s good that I mean, with painting, it’s definitely a lot of, you know, general to specific, and it’s some specific things that can make or break a painting sometimes, or just improve it. And it’s those tiny improvements over time that make it even better.

Maureen Dunlap: 28:18

Yes, and you learn every time you’re going.. oh, this is something I did last time. Don’t make that mistake again. So, yeah, I do like experimenting a lot with, you know, these different styles, and you know, I started using a couple of things like gold leaf, but can I show you some of these pictures. Let’s see if I can get this. So I started doing these two. This is like my interpretation of tablecloths, and so this is a lace tablecloth, obviously. And it took me a long, long time to do this painting, which is really time consuming to do all these little tiny lace things. Then I decided to do tablecloth. Oh, and these tablecloths are all vintage, so this one was one that my mother had. The tablecloth is really red, not blue, but I changed the color on the computer to blue just for difference, and this is called Hungover, and I actually, I put these little knobs on the ends of the of the curtain rod and the wainscoting, I built these little things on the side,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:37

looks so this is

Maureen Dunlap: 29:40

called crumpled, and it has some others, but I needed wall space, so I had to take some down. This is a recent one, and again I found this frame, which I love, the Art Deco style of that. Then I, this is another recent one called Molten. Sunlight, and I know you could see these in the background, but the two women at the top, again, would love for someone to buy those both. These are my another set of frames that I got, but I wanted to make paintings to go in them. Here’s my, my Mooka tapestry idea. I put a rod at the top with the tassels hanging down. This pink one is called Party Girl, and it’s one of my favorites, and you know, I just really love the color. Then I did this one, it was called Rendezvous, which I like to make up these stories of like these birds got into the house somehow, and have a secret rendezvous, I don’t know, and they’re of course fantasy. I took regular birds and changed the colors. Here’s another experiment I did with her. I tried doing like a collage background and painted her on top of it, which I like the painting, but if you look close, you can see all the seams in the paper, and I’m not sure I love that, but it is what it is. Here’s a magnolia, which one of my favorite flowers. Oh my god, the smell and fragrance. I did a lot of magnolias, a series of them. Just whenever I don’t have anything to paint, I’ll do a magnolia. This is another woman that’s kind of made up with the Mooka theme. Now, on this one, all those leaves at the top of her head, I had a hard time trying to figure out where to place them, so I cut out paper and kind of tacked them on there, and then took each one off and painted it, and I actually tried to make them look like paper, because I thought that was kind of cool. This painting is called Blessed Be the Hair Volume, because I really, I was really trying to do the study of that blonde hair. There’s another Mooka-esque muca-esque one called the Age of Wonder, and this is where I use some gold leaf around the border. Not easy to handle that stuff. Have you ever tried it?

Laura Arango Baier: 32:34

I have. It’s tough.

Maureen Dunlap: 32:36

It is tough. And again, here’s another rose, kind of like a d popping out of the of the oval. I didn’t have a frame, so I painted a frame on the side of the canvas. Here’s one of my ocean scapes, and this here is my latest series I’m working on that I mentioned, which is going to be called the dreaming season. This one here is pretty much done, and this one is kind of done, but this one and that one are still to be completed, so you know that’s that’s given me something to do for a while, and then I have some family portraits here, my my two daughters, this is my son, who sadly passed away, and that’s my boyfriend, Daniel, so that’s my studio.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:47

Beautiful work, beautiful. I really love the dreaming ladies. Yeah, that’s

Maureen Dunlap: 33:53

gonna be fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:54

Yeah, and the painted frame on the pink flowers, like I would have thought it was a real frame. You’re very good, the trompe l’oeil style, which is, yeah, I love

Maureen Dunlap: 34:05

doing that. You don’t have one, just make it up.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:08

Yeah, might as well. I mean, you got the power of creation in your hands, why not?

Maureen Dunlap: 34:13

Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:14

yeah, awesome, yeah. And then I also wanted to ask you a bit about what it was like for you when you decided to just go full time as an artist, like, what was that experience like for you?

Maureen Dunlap: 34:28

Well, it was exciting, but also a little scary. Luckily for me, I was able to collect, start collecting social security. I’m an old lady, so I, I had like a couple years where I was like trying to make ends meet, but then that kicked in, and I, I was all good. I also, you know, had 401 k and stuff, so I feel a little bit financially secure. I say a little bit, you never know what’s going to happen, but yeah, so I’m sorry. What was the question about

Laura Arango Baier: 35:11

what the experience was like when it became a full-time? Oh, yeah,

Maureen Dunlap: 35:13

so very scary, but also very freeing, because I’m like, now I mean I’m retired, I can do whatever I want. I don’t even have to come here if I don’t want to, but of course I want to. I want to stay. I’m busy every second. So, aside from this, I also have a home studio where I do a lot of crafting, because you know what’s funny, once you become a full-time painter, suddenly it becomes a job, and you’re like, I gotta take a day off, you know? I feel obligated to do this, even though I love it. So, if it’s kind of hard, you have to make time, like, for work-life balance, you know? I want to spend time at home with my boyfriend. We also have two parrots that need attention, so I gotta be home with those guys. Yeah, so I’m very busy. I also, you know, belong to a Spanish group, because we meet every Friday. We’ve been doing Spanish for about 15 years, my boyfriend and I, so that’s fun, you know. Go to the gym sometimes, but it’s.. I don’t know what other people do when they aren’t working anymore. I mean, I have a lot of friends from high school that I guess I don’t know what they do. I mean, maybe they go out to lunch or read a book or so very relaxing kind of lifestyle, which you know sounds nice, so maybe that’s great for them, wouldn’t be good for me. I feel like I feel constantly like I’m battling against time, like I have to believe a legacy, but then again, what am I gonna do with all this stuff at the end? I mean, I think about that stuff. I don’t mean to be morbid, but you know, I guess doesn’t matter. It’ll be what it is.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:12

Yeah, I think a lot of people, as they, you know, as they age and they grow in their career, I think we start thinking about those things and I think I could probably confidently say that it touches someone, and that’s what matters, you know. Yeah, it’s.. it is kind of morbid to think about, though. It’s like, oh man, what am I.. that’s life, you know? I mean, yeah,

Maureen Dunlap: 37:38

it’s. you can’t take them with you.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:42

No,

Maureen Dunlap: 37:44

I think I’m going to start doing more oceans again pretty soon, as soon as soon as I finish this series. So be on the lookout for that.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:55

Yeah, no, and I think it’s it’s also one of those things where the moment you kind of start, because you mentioned you know you make jewelry as well, but I feel like also the moment that you start opening yourself up to more creative things, suddenly you start seeing it everywhere.

Maureen Dunlap: 38:12

Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 38:12

like you’re like, “Oh my god, now I want to try this craft over here, because I’m

Maureen Dunlap: 38:17

always, always thinking about the next thing I’m going to make. I see something beautiful, and I need to recreate it in some form, like I have this idea, like even this art deco necklace. I just finished this, actually, this morning, and I have a website I just set up for my jewelry, and I can give you that URL if you want. Later, I’ll send it to you. But, yeah, I just love working with my hands. I also fix a lot of things around the house. I do gardening. I’ve got this. It’s like you could work every second and never get everything done,

Laura Arango Baier: 39:02

yeah. pretty much. That’s like there’s never enough time sometimes. That’s

Maureen Dunlap: 39:08

not it. Your time is our enemy,

Laura Arango Baier: 39:10

yeah, yeah. And then I also wanted to ask, because you know there are a lot of aspects of being an artist that can be pretty challenging, but for you, what has been the hardest thing about being a full-time artist that you haven’t really heard mentioned?

Maureen Dunlap: 39:26

Well, like I said, it’s the thing I’m worried about is just having too much stuff, and where am I going to put it? I mean, this sounds a little silly, but my, my house is full, this place is full, you know, I mean, I again, I slow down, and I go home, and I start making small things. I even started making little tiny paintings, thinking, well, they’re not going to take up a lot of room, you got to be practical, and you know that that’s another thing too with. Of sales, it’s good to have things at various price points. I mean, people don’t usually come in with $1,000 in their pocket to buy a big painting, so you know, make some $20 items, or you know, that’s, and I would say that’s true for even people working at their home studios, you know, you, the daily paint works that I used to do was really good for me, I every painting I put on there for a while was selling, then it dried up, so I thought, never mind, but you know, you again, you have to set yourself apart in some way, because there you’re right now, you’re like a drop in the ocean of artists, you look, just look on Instagram or Pinter, Pinterest, I get a lot of really cool ideas from looking at Pinterest inspiration, but yeah, I mean, I love the academic style, but there’s a lot of people doing it, but you gotta make yours different. I like to make mine somewhat different in some way, so that’s you gotta figure that out.

Laura Arango Baier: 41:18

Yeah, yes, you know what makes you you, which is, I feel like that’s another life journey that just changes over time.

Maureen Dunlap: 41:27

Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 41:28

yeah, yeah. And then I also wanted to ask, because you have, you know, taken on commissions and you’ve sold some work in the past, how did you find those first, you know, buyers or collectors, was it word of mouth, was it?

Maureen Dunlap: 41:43

So, as I said, well, Facebook, Facebook was a gold mine for me for a while, till like the economy got kind of bad, but FASO at first was good. I don’t really know how, how you guys do it, but people were finding my work. Basically, it was mostly my flower still life, so maybe I should go back to that. Those would be snapped up quite often, so I, you know, I would get that person, and then word of mouth. I also had some work at the North Carolina Museum of Art when they had a, they have an annual flower show, Art in Bloom, and I put some stuff in their gift shop and sold them, so you gotta find kind of like these places, I don’t want to be in a gallery, really. That’s something we should never talk about, but I don’t want to give 50% of my money to a gallery, or you know, you would have to double your price, or whatever, which then makes it unreachable for some people. Now that could change, I say that, but I also don’t want to really be beholden to a place that even if I’m here, I have to charge what they would charge because of the contracting that they use, unless they’re really far away. What else? Oh yeah, so people come in here, not as many as we would like, but a few times a person would come in and just randomly just buy a painting, so that course is great. I’ve had some work in restaurants that you know rotate the artwork on their walls. Those are good ways to sell. No, I don’t know how else. I mean, I guess obviously Instagram, social media, which is so hard. I mean, it really

Laura Arango Baier: 44:00

is. Yeah, yeah, I think that’s something that’s changing a lot as well. I think there are less people on social media. I think a lot of people are appreciating much more the in real life experiences. I think a lot of people are probably going much more to like out, like outside of their house places. We’re all getting a little bit tired of the internet.

Maureen Dunlap: 44:22

Yes, right, exactly. I did an art festival, outdoor festival, where you set up a tent and all this. That was a lot of work for paintings like this, like to just let them all over there and hang them up on a grid, and and take them all home, because nobody bought them, so you know, I think the crafting is probably the way that you can make a little more small increments of money if you come up with your own groove on those things, but it’s it’s. A battle, I’m not gonna lie, it’s not easy.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:04

No, yeah, yeah, I mean, being a, an artist is like being an entrepreneur, but it’s also like a little different, because you don’t, you don’t have like one singular product to sell to people, you make very unique products, nothing is the same unless you literally make the same painting, but as prints, that’s like the only exception.

Maureen Dunlap: 45:28

Yes, that’s another thing I don’t have a lot of luck selling prints. I did sell prints of my, my four Mucha women, but the issue I have with doing prints is like a lot of my work is when it’s shrunken down to a print, it looks kind of like a photo of something, and doesn’t accept why would you buy that, you know, like I have a friend who is a wildlife painter, and he’ll paint like certain animals that that people like, so they buy his prints a lot, so that’s, you know, you have to have a niche that’s suitable for prints.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:08

Yeah, I agree. I think selling prints can be really hard, unless it’s like a painting that’s just really beloved. Yeah, Becky, like, oh my gosh, I could have sold this like 50 times, type of painting. Yeah, and that’s the other hard part, which I think that’s one of the conveniences of, like, if you do sell prints, just not having them pre-printed and having, like, a buy to print type of situation, I think is also a little bit more convenient, yeah, and then I also wanted to ask if you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full-time artist.

Maureen Dunlap: 46:49

Good luck, you need to have.. I think I don’t know that you can jump in right away and assume you can make a living, you better have another source of income, and start slowly, but you know, again, set yourself apart in some way, try to have a subject matter or a style that is different, and then join FASO, that’s really been a good, good thing for me, and, and your social media, but again, it’s, I don’t know, it’s a dirt drop in the ocean, these artists are, that’s how I feel, it’s, it’s, I love, love, love doing it, and so I do it for love, not for money, so it’s I would do it anyway. I would pay to do it, actually. I do pay to do it. I, I have to pay for all this stuff in this room, but yeah, I, I love to see like a young artist that’s, or a young person that wants to learn and do this, I’m considering teaching, possibly have never done that, but it’s on my radar. I might do some videos, something like that. Yeah, you got to think of other ways to get money to live,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:22

yeah, especially as an artist, yeah, it’s like you got to wear all the hats, diversify that income, and you know, level out that economic support and stability, because if you don’t, yeah,

Unknown: 48:37

it

Laura Arango Baier: 48:37

can really, I mean, probably not for everyone out there. I think some people really thrive in stressful situations, but I know in my case I don’t think I’d be able to focus on painting if I was constantly worried about I can’t pay my bills this month.

Maureen Dunlap: 48:53

Right, right, right. Yeah, that can be so stressful, and that’s going to show it. Excuse me, showing your work, so you want to get to a point where it’s you’re doing it with joy and you’re in the zone and you don’t care if your place is a huge mess because you’re in the flow state, so that’s kind of me, my home, my home craft studio, it’s like a bomb went off in there and I don’t care, that’s how I, that’s how I work, I clean it up in between, but it’s, it’s just the way it is. It’s nature, the beast.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:31

Yes, the art bomb, yes, the creating bum. Yeah, I totally relate. It’s like I can’t focus on cleaning, I gotta, I gotta go fix this person’s face on my painting really quick. Exactly. yeah, like, and then it gets cleaned up. I mean, it gives you something to, like, do after you’re done, almost like it’s almost like a cleansing ritual afterward. We’re like, okay, now I can clear out the old energy of this painting, and then have a fresh start. Yeah, yeah. And I also wanted to ask you, if someone wants to see your work in person, or if they want to see more of your work, where can they come?

Maureen Dunlap: 50:09

So, if they’re local to North Carolina, they can come to Durham to this, my studio in the Golden Belt Arts Building from Studio Nine, I can I let’s see, I mean, outside of in person, I’ve got all the different socials, some of them I don’t use for painting, so I, you know, it’s more just ranting and raving, so, but my Instagram, I have two Instagram sites now, and my Facebook page, which really I don’t post a lot of my art anymore on Facebook, since I’ve got the Instagram and the and the FASO. So also we’re having a group show here in the main hallway of this complex between October and December, so that’s another thing. I don’t really have anything else planned at the moment.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:16

Okay, yeah, but I’m guessing you know someone can go to your website, which absolutely do you mind telling us what your website is?

Maureen Dunlap: 51:23

Maureen dunlap.com perfect. And also, I have the Wonder Cabinet, which is my jewelry store. It’s brand new, so it’s Wonder hyphen cabinet, and I’m still working on that, put you know, every time I make something, I put it up, so there’s that, and I’m, I’ve been battling the technology to try to get my Instagram page for that to show the product, so people can shop on Instagram, I mean, some people do it, but my God, it’s so hard, it’s so hard to get to get all these things in Meta working and approved, and I spent weeks with that still not working right.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:12

Yeah, it’s one of those things with the way that the landscape of how social media has changed, because I think before it was so much easier to shop from Instagram yet than now. Now it it feels like you got to pay more, or you got to become like a, like, you got to just do all this verification stuff that

Maureen Dunlap: 52:30

you’ll get the check mark on.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:31

Yeah, which I understand, because you know there’s scammers out there, but people are still getting scammed anyway. Like, I

Maureen Dunlap: 52:36

know it makes no sense. This doesn’t mean you’re not a scammer, you just have to pay $15 a month to have a check mark.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:42

Oh, yeah. No, but I mean, like, people who do, like, they get the check mark, but they’re actually scammers, like that’s what I’m

Maureen Dunlap: 52:47

saying. It just costs money, that’s all you can.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:50

Oh, yeah,

Maureen Dunlap: 52:51

they’re scamming you. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:53

no, it’s yeah, I

Maureen Dunlap: 52:55

know it’s there. I have that on my art on my Maureen J. Dunlap is my Instagram painting site, and I do have the check mark there. I don’t know that it does anything.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:11

We try what we can. I know you gotta try all these

Maureen Dunlap: 53:14

things.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:15

Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Maureen, for the very whimsical conversation. Thank you

Maureen Dunlap: 53:23

so much. I’m really, I was looking forward to this.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:25

Yeah, me too. And I do hope you consider teaching, because I think you would probably be a very fun teacher to learn from.

Maureen Dunlap: 53:32

Yeah, I would love to do that. I love sometimes I get young people, like 20 year old young adults, coming in asking me questions, and I love explaining the technical aspects of how to do this, so I’m really thinking about taking on some students. Heck, yeah! Why not? Why not? Yeah. Well, thank you, Laura. I really, really enjoyed this conversation.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:58

Me too. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For our season 14 finale, we sat down with artist and veteran art-marketing writer, Lori Woodward. Lori shares how she went from burnout after art school to rebuilding her skills through workshops, portrait commissions, and writing for major magazines and art organizations. She explains how learning directly from successful peers, mentors, and collectors shaped her understanding of how the art market really works, which is very different from generic marketing advice. Lori breaks down the impact of the 2008 recession, why so many galleries and careers collapsed, and why today’s market, despite economic anxiety, is fundamentally healthier and full of new, younger collectors. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes that no amount of marketing can replace a cohesive, competitive body of work, consistent production, and a recognizable voice that develops only through years of painting, experimenting, and failing forward. She gives practical guidance on pricing, working with galleries, outdoor shows, email lists, and social media, stressing that real relationships and in‑person experiences now matter more than chasing algorithms. Ultimately, Lori encourages artists to build a realistic vision, move slowly but steadily, and design a career that fits their personality—whether that means becoming a local favorite, a gallery regular, or a small‑scale, part‑time professional who still sells meaningful work.

Sign up for Lori’s Newsletter:
loriwoodward.com/email-newsletter

Lori’s FASO Site:
loriwoodward.com/

Lori’s Social Media:
instagram.com/woodwardartist/

Lori’s Article about Pricing:
https://www.artworkarchive.com/blog/how-to-price-consistently-for-art-sales-success

Lori’s Blog:
loriwoodward.com/blog

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Transcript:

Lori Woodward: 0:00

All the marketing in the world, and all the techniques in the world will not sell a piece of art if nobody wants it. It’s got to compete in the marketplace, whichever marketplace that you choose to sell to.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:19

Welcome to the Faso podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For our season 14 finale, we sat down with artist and veteran art marketing writer Lori Woodward. Lori shares how she went from burnout after art school to rebuilding her skills through workshops, portrait commissions, and writing for major magazines and art organizations. She explains how learning directly from successful peers, mentors, and collectors shaped her understanding of how the art market really works, which is very different from generic marketing advice. Laurie breaks down the impact of the 2008 recession, why so many galleries and careers collapsed, and why today’s market, despite economic anxiety, is fundamentally healthier and full of new, younger collectors. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes that no amount of marketing can replace a cohesive, competitive body of work, consistent production, and a recognizable voice that develops only through years of painting, experimenting, and failing forward. She gives practical guidance on pricing, working with galleries, outdoor shows, email lists, and social media, stressing that real relationships and in-person experiences now matter more than chasing algorithms. Ultimately, Laurie encourages artists to build a realistic vision, move slowly but steadily, and design a career that fits their personality, whether that means becoming a local favorite, gallery regular, or a small-scale part-time professional who still sells meaningful work. Welcome, Lori, to the FASO Podcast. How are you today? I’m doing very well, and I’m so happy to be here. Yeah, and I’m so happy and excited to have you, because you have so much experience with art marketing. You’re also an artist, so you’re not just like on one end of, oh well, this is what works. It’s like, no, you’ve actually experienced this yourself, you have, you know, this, the ability to see something that works, and to be able to actually do it. So, I think this is going to be an excellent episode for all our listeners who have tons of questions about the new world we’re in, in terms of art

Unknown: 2:39

marketing,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:40

because things are changing as you always do, so I’m excited to have you for that reason. So, thank you for being too. Yeah, of course. But before we dive into all the delicious, wonderful information about today’s marketing world, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Lori Woodward: 2:59

Okay, well, I’ve done a lot of different things over the years, of course, like you know, most all the artists on your podcast. I started out drawing as a young child, and I’ll just tell you a little story. We won’t get into all the details, but I was probably about four years old, and my mom had some little original oil paintings, they were, they were miniatures, and I had taken my crayons and I drew on the walls, like a lot of kids will do at that age, and no, that didn’t go over well, don’t draw on the walls, so I got a bright idea to improve on these little oil paintings with my crayons, and I believe that some of the crayon is there till my sister has the paintings, I think it’s still there, but you know, I think kids that that are going to be artists that just have that innate curiosity and willingness to do it, they just, they can’t help but not do it, and there are some artists who, you know, started later in life, but they’re generally creative people you know when, when they find that, so I started out. We’ll get into some of your questions. I think that I will, you’ll learn more about me as we go, but I did have a fine art education major at the U of A, and like most universities, I never saw a demo. They wanted abstract work, they wanted something. I was so silly that I kept drawing the model or painting the model. I had one really good. Teacher, but he retired while I was there, and I could not get anything above a C or a B to save my life, but I was on a scholarship, a four year scholarship, so I needed to see it through, so I saw it through, and then I went back to nursing for a year, I said, well, I gotta get a job here, and I was going to teach high school, but those kids were going to kill me, I think. I, I kept the teachers kept asking me for a pass on one of our field trips, so, so then I, I got married. We moved back east to New Hampshire, and I worked at a computer company testing software for 10 years, and I absolutely love that job, and I didn’t do any - I was totally burnt out on art after college, so I didn’t do any art at all. And you’ve heard this story from many artists, you know? I think Matt Smith, he’s one of my mentors, he describes almost the same thing, and I went down to the university. It’s nothing’s changed there, nothing’s changed as far as what I never saw the professor’s work. Sometimes they didn’t even show up. So anyway, I saw it through, and then in the 90s workshops were exploding everywhere, so I started taking workshops, and that didn’t happen in previous years. That opened me up to learning and seeing demonstrations, and it was mostly watercolor, because watercolor was huge back then, and so I took a lot of watercolor workshops, and then I studied with Sandra Freckleton and Jack Beal at an invitational summer workshop for six summers, and she taught me how to control watercolor. She was German, so there was never any mistakes to be made. There were no happy accidents, and I liked that, because I was able to learn how to methodically paint with watercolor, and my expectations. I met my expectations. There wasn’t any. It was all planning, and it was really cool. I really enjoyed it, and then, and then I, after that, I started taking oil lessons with some local teachers and stuff, and, and in about the, you know, 2001 2002 I started getting into art marketing, and I’ll, I’ll tell that separately as we go through the questions, and I was selling it, my work, my watercolors at outdoor shows locally in Maine and New Hampshire, and I just loved that once I was set up and meeting the people, and, and I just thought that gave me a real education, and about how to sell art, and my colleagues, which were local artists at our art association, we met for breakfast on Wednesdays, and we talked business, and, and I learned everything from them, and some of them were extremely successful, and sold, and outdoor shows, the galleries, and made some of them, made a one of them, which I’ll discuss later, made $100,000 a year after gallery commissions and fees, and she mentored me in business. So, later on, I, I got hooked up with.. I went down to the port. I was just doing a ton of portrait commissions in both water, mostly watercolor, a few in oil, and I went down to the Portrait Society of America’s, I think it was their first or second convention, it was down in Reston, Virginia, and somehow I ended up offering my writing. I was writing for Watercolor magazine about other artists at the time, and I started writing their newsletter and editing their newsletter. I met a guy named Calvin Goodman, and at the time he mentored some of the most famous portrait artists, other artists. He was the guy who was the art marketing expert. He was featured in magazine articles, and he started mentoring me, he. And after a while he realized I was very interested in art marketing, and I was learning so much from him that he asked me. He says, “Well, I’m coming out with my latest edition from my art marketing handbook, but I don’t know a thing about websites, because I’m he’s in his mid to late 70s, I don’t know, and he said you seem to be pretty comfortable with this stuff, my husband was a soft software engineer, he was creating my website at the time, and so I said, well, yeah, why not? Why don’t I write a chapter on websites? I already write. I’ll do some research. My husband will work with me, and I, what I did was, I, I had heard that Kevin McPherson had this cool new website where he could upload and maintain on his own, and I thought, well, that’s the future. So I contacted Kevin. I don’t remember how, probably through his website, I don’t know, and, and so Kevin and I had a phone call interview, and he said, you know what, why don’t you, why don’t I give you Clint Watson’s telephone number, because he’s the guy who created my website, and I’d already been following the gallery that Clint was writing a website for. He designed websites, and so I called Clint, and Clint and I had a great interview. His name and Kevin’s name are both in the book, but you can’t find the book anymore, because this was like 2001 and when Calvin passed away, the book kind of passed away with him, and everything had changed. Websites were pretty archaic back then. You had, you had to make sure the images were small, because they wouldn’t upload, and stuff like that, you know, so that’s how I got started with Clint Watson, and then I continued to write for Watercolor Magazine. Eventually, when my art was good enough, and it wasn’t good enough, I wrote about other artists for a long time in 2007 working very hard to improve my work. Steve Doherty, the editor in chief, said, I said, is my work good enough to start doing an instructional column? He said, Yes, it’s stunning. So I always ask, and I’m never insulted if they say no, and so I started my own column, column, then, so that kept me very busy for a long while, and at about that time I had a FASO website, and as soon as I got that up and running, my husband’s like, you know, what, I don’t want to, I don’t want to do this anymore, I don’t have time. He was still working, and I said, and I don’t want to bug you, I want one of these websites, and they’re so reasonably priced, and and I started blogging right away on my website, and somehow Clint Watson noticed my blog, and this had to be years after the interview. I don’t know how he came upon it, but he said, I think I know her, and he, he subscribed to my blog, or what was it back then, RSS, like I can’t remember, but he, he contacted me and asked me to, he was the only one writing the daily newsletter back then, and he asked me to start contributing to their, their what they called Fine Art Views, now I think it’s THE FASO Way.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:23

The FASO Way, yeah.

Lori Woodward: 14:23

Okay, he asked me to start contributing, and I contributed weekly for nearly a decade, and that allowed me to do a lot of research interviews. I just meet people naturally, I meet people, and I also started writing interviews with collectors that I met through Richard Schmidt’s Putney painters and shows a lot of artists as I gained. Um, oh, what’s the word, not a reputation, but as, as people became familiar with my blog, and artists, full-time career artists became familiar with my blog, when I called them to interview or contact, they were happy to give me answers, then I started emailing them, and after the recession, and saying, which didn’t hit art until 2010 It took a while, but, but those artists were more than happy to tell me exactly what was going on, and I didn’t always mention their names, unless they wanted me to, but I gathered a lot of statistics and real-life experiences for what was going on. That’s what went into my blog, was not theories. I wasn’t that kind of art marketer that that says, oh, here’s the protocol, and you should do this, and this, and this, and this, because I found that a lot of times they weren’t artists, they didn’t really, they were marketers, but they didn’t understand how the art market is completely different than every other market, and every venue and every level and every type of buyer or collector can be completely different from another type of buyer collector, so I wanted to get real life stories from artists from all levels, and I’ve, I learned a lot, and I want to get back into that now, because I, I just, you know, being, I just turned 70 this year, and I’m thinking it’s time for me to contribute, because I’ve done a lot through the years, and I just want to, you know, I don’t need the money anymore, I want to contribute, so that’s a long nutshell, but that’s pretty much how I got into all this art marketing. So, let’s see anything else that you want to know.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:11

I mean, yeah, there’s there’s a ton that I want to know. I think it’s very interesting that it seems like you got into art marketing almost by, by chance, like almost like a side thing, instead of directly, like, oh, well, this is something I’m interested in. It was, I’m sure, it came from, like, necessity to some extent, right? Being an artist, actually,

Lori Woodward: 17:34

actually, it wasn’t necessity, because I’m curious, and I notice things and patterns of artists. I think the interest in art marketing outweighs my interest to paint, and always has. I worked at a computer company. I, you know, I just like.. I’m a little bit, you know, I love to write and interview people, and I’m a little bit, you know, those tests where you see if you’re left or right brained, I’m right down the middle, so I could go either way, and most of my art was produced as a result of teaching workshops and step-by-step articles. I had to have an article ready for every issue of Watercolor, which was quarterly, and I wrote for other magazines too. Workshop magazine, I went to the workshops, and I loved that. And I have to be honest with you, this will work into the marketing talk, because it takes a certain kind of person to make a living at art, and I’m not one of them. I cannot spend 40 to 50 hours or more alone in the studio. I feel like I’m in jail. I have to have an outside reason to create a piece of artwork which involves other people. I actually love going to art openings, even if I’m not at in the show. I just love meeting the artist and and the people and the collectors and I’ve no, I’ve known some gallery owners for 25 years, and whenever I see them, they’re always like, here’s a new thing we’re doing, and you know, this is how marketing’s working, so you know, I just love that, but I do produce artwork, and I have sold most everything that I’ve produced in one way or another, but I’m a people person, so.. so let’s see, what else did you want to know here?

Laura Arango Baier: 19:53

Um, well, I kind of want to circle back a little to the recession, okay? Doesn’t he? Recession, because I think today we’re in a very similar situation. I think a lot of people are feeling tons of economic pressure, and it’s very, very reminiscent to the 2008 recession. I’ve actually interviewed quite a few artists who survived through it, which is amazing to be right. I was not at the age where I was worried about my income when it happened, so it’s interesting to hear about it, but I also want to know, we are in a similar situation today, but not entirely, because, of course, there’s the internet. What would you say is, you know, compared to the market crash of 2008 is totally different for artists today who want to sell their work and try to make a living today.

Lori Woodward: 20:49

I think the the 2008 situation was unique, and it hasn’t happened again. There’s always been recessions, the 2008 2008 recession really wiped out a lot of artists who were making very good livings, and galleries closed left and right because it was connected to the housing market, which was everybody was investing in the housing market, and what happened that really hurt living artists is that there were big collectors before 2008 I went to, you know, I painted in Richard Schmidt’s group, and he invited me and the runner of Village Arts and Putney to go with him and Nancy Guzik out to Denver to the governor’s show and and I met avid collectors, I mean 250 paintings, I I know a couple that put a wing on their house for their extra Schmidts and stuff, his his market was never hurt, actually, but what happened was with the 2008 is that people lost with the stock market, including us, we were pretty young, but we lost half of our life savings in our 401 k overnight, and, and that was okay, because we weren’t near retirement age, but a lot of the collectors at that point were people 50 and older, and they lost a lot of their investments, so you know, in the markets, and they thought, “Oh, bright idea, here we go. I’m going to sell my art collection on a secondary market and make some money back, but the problem was that a lot of collectors decided to do that, and they absolutely saturated the market with secondary works of living artists that they bought recently, and I can think of artists, not only did they not make money, but it just brought down the price of all the artworks, except the long dead ones, pretty pretty quickly. It started about 2010 and I know one artist who, I mean, the art market was so hot before that he was a New England artist. I won’t mention his name, but he was selling at several galleries, and this happened with other artists that I knew. They’d have a wall full of art, and a collector would come in and buy the entire. these were expensive paintings for the time. Buy the entire wall of art at once. And so this artist was making $40,000 a month. And then he went after the the recession hit the art market, he went from that to not selling any paintings for 18 months, and he had a wife and two kids in college. Well, he didn’t, couldn’t have the money for college. Fortunately, he prepared financially for bad times, and the best artists, the artists who are older now, who were, you know, probably in their 40s and 50s back then, they survived because they prepared, they had six to 12 months living expenses in the bank for bad times, and as they put money away. Times were good because they lived long enough to see that it could happen, and then other artists out west quit their jobs and got other jobs. They quit art because it was just sitting there, and they needed to feed a family, so they, one of them, went back to school and got a degree for a job that he knew he could have. Now he’s painting again, you know. After the recession happened, I don’t think we’ll, we have returned to anywhere near that kind of situation in the art world. I think that I actually think that the art market I’m I know a lot of artists that are doing very, very well that have been painting all along, and I think the art market is actually doing extremely well, because it’s not the same kind of buyers, for instance, I mean, there’s several layers, but at a recent auction, I think it was Jackson Hole auction, I was listening to podcasts with the guy who runs it, he says there are there are collect new collectors in their 30s and 40s, and one of them bought a Remington watercolor, and he was young. I looked at the results, it was $790,000 He says, “We’re getting new collectors who, who had the means, who were buying, who are getting into collecting. I see a lot of new people, especially, you know, in their 50s, 40s, getting into art collecting, and this has never happened before, is at least in my lifetime. It’s always been older folks, but these are.. I mean, it is.. it is a hot market, the Western market, no doubt about it. The Eastern market is completely different. The Western markets, all it’s getting more and more contemporary. The new West, the auctions, the museum shows, and I know that I know of artists that recently came from out of nowhere, but because of the quality and the of their work, they just went to the top right away, and they’re one of them is in the Prix de West, and five years ago no one knew who she was, Rachel Brownlee, and you know she’s young, I mean it, it’s exploding now. I think most of the art markets are in the East Coast, in the West. The New York market is not doing all that well. People want the younger, the younger collectors want more contemporary, and I think that they like that on a lot of levels. There’s still very much room for traditional type of art and and the Eastern Galleries, it’s a calmer market, it’s old money. Richard Schmid used to say it’s old money back there, and they’re more, their homes don’t have soaring ceilings, and you know, so they’re, it’s a more intimate type of art. They love landscapes back there, especially of where they have second homes and in tourist areas that are seasonal, and, and in the West. In the West, it’s sort of a different crowd. In the West, I’ve heard two to one collector, one art gallery owner, and Scott Steele say that people actually do and always have bought these high-priced artworks by living artists or dead to flip, they, they buy them, and they few years later they put them back in another auction, hope to make profit. They’re not truly, they’re investors, but there are still a lot of really art lovers out there, and so people like me and my friends, and I, you know, I know some of the great artists and great collectors, but I’m never going to be a superstar, and I don’t want to be a superstar, and I’ll tell you why before we answer one of your other important questions about how does an artist get into the market and move towards making a living at art. I don’t want to be a superstar because I’m not willing to do what’s required. To stay there even if I could, even if my art were, you know, spectacular enough to to gain that kind of visibility, and where galleries, gallerists were calling me up and saying, we want your art, we want your art, because I’m already selling, you know, it, and that’s not going to happen for me, but I know even more artists personally who have made a living who are selling pretty much everything they paint, even if they’ve got another job, no matter where they live, and there’s a protocol that needs to be followed to get there on any level in any place, and it takes a long time, and I think the internet, and especially watching people, you know, the cameras sped up and everything. Our brains begin to think that we should be painting a lot faster, when in reality, slower is faster. You will gain more expertise and control over your work if you just slow down and just give yourself six months to to a year to create a body of work, which is something that I want to talk about in depth, because marketing, all the marketing in the world, and all the techniques in the world will not sell a piece of art if nobody wants it, it’s got to compete in the marketplace, whichever marketplace that you choose to sell to, so, so I want to talk a lot about body of work, and I think you asked a question here. You wanted to talk about how artists can prepare and begin to make a living at art. Well, Calvin Goodman told me that this was, you know, around the year 2001 2002 that make over 10 net over 10,000 a year profit is point oh 1% Yeah, now I personally know artists who make a heck of a lot more than that, but there is no shame in making for an artist to be a local celebrity making 20 netting, I’m talking about profit, $20,000 a year. How many of you out there listening would be happy with that, I think. When you’re actually doing it, it, it creates real happiness. Now, some artists are going to go on to make a lot more of that. You have to be consistent, you have to be prolific, and you have to have a continuous, cohesive, recognizable body of work, and what happened to me, I mean, I made all the mistakes early on, is I was showing in a local, it was a frame shop, and back then they sold prints from print companies, but she also sold originals from local artists, she had, she was in an affluent community, and that’s almost a requirement, and people were in there all the time to get their artwork framed, so she had a solo show. I probably put up about 15 paintings that I had done in watercolor. I’d probably taken five years. I don’t, I don’t remember. Took me a long time to create that body of work. Well, a couple came in and bought almost all of them, and and then I sold every single painting in that show, and the show wasn’t supposed to be over yet, and she said, Well, what do you got, you know? And I learned my lesson the hard way, I said I don’t have anything, I don’t, I don’t have any work for you, so being productive with a developed style, and I’ll talk about that a little bit, because that can be very loose and. I know I can use examples of artists who, who do a lot of different subject matter, but it’s, you know, it’s that artist’s work, so you have to be the kind of personality that can pull this off, just can pull off creating that body of work consistently, consistently learning, improving, focusing on at least maybe work in a series for a while, you can change, you can change what you paint, but get started with something you know that’s going to be cohesive, make at least just, just don’t, don’t be posting everything before you’re ready. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard it, and other artists have heard it, even artists who are making a full-time living now. That when they first approached the galleries, the gallerist said, “Yeah, you’re good, you’re on your way, but you’re not ready yet. And I heard that too. I was ready and selling it outdoor shows, I was doing well, but I wasn’t ready for a commercial gallery, and you might ask why. It’s not because I wasn’t consistent, it’s because my skill level wasn’t there yet to compete with the other works they had on the wall, and in some cases, what they had on the wall was nationally known artists, and so I went to the resort areas in New England. I did end up working with some galleries. You wouldn’t know who they were. They sold my work. I didn’t have any replacements because I was too busy writing and doing other things, but I could have made it. I absolutely could have made it. So, so you have to have that body of work. 20 works would be ideal. Frame them all with the same frame, because if you end up doing outdoor shows or art in the park or other shows in your booth, you don’t want it to look like a patchwork quilt. You don’t want it to look like, please don’t buy used frames at antique shops and fix them up and make them all different. You want to look like a professional, even you fake it till you make it. You’ve heard that so, so much. You want to give people the impression that you’re in this for the long run, so that when they purchase your work, they have something to brag about. They love to brag, or a conversation piece in their home. And I learned a lot of these things from a woman named Monique Sakalarius, and she lived in New Hampshire. She’s in her 80s now. I don’t really know how active she is, but she is the one that made over $100,000 consistently every year, and I think she painted about 200 paintings a year. She taught me everything about getting into galleries there and showing it, outdoor shows, how to talk to people. Oh, she was amazing. She’d be people would come up, they knew who she was, because she ended up being a local celebrity, and people would come up to her booth, and she wouldn’t be just sitting there reading a book, she’d be standing there, or she’d sit on their eye level, because it’s about communication. If you don’t know how to talk to people, just smile, ask them where they’re from, or what brought them to the show, just start a conversation, and she would, before you knew it, I just watched her. She’s taken a painting off the wall that they love, and she’s putting it in their hands. They haven’t even said they’re going to buy it yet, but then she’s wrapping it up, you know. Anyway, I was never like that. It worked for her, but she worked in, oh, maybe six or seven gallery commercial galleries too. She sold it outdoor shows that were juried in New England. She’d come home with $10,000 cash in her pocket. I mean, she was the perfect example, and I know artists who are still doing outdoor shows. They’re doing them. I know most of them are in New England, and they’re smaller, they’re more internet. They do the same show every year, and sometimes when you’re new to the show, you don’t get noticed, because people know who they’re going to buy from before they get. Baer never do a show that has crafts or children’s activities. It doesn’t bring out art buyers. It has to be because the it has to be fine craft, but it can’t be something that you could go home and make because that’s a different crowd. You want, ideally, you want it to be even if it’s not Jude, you want it to be two-dimensional art. You want to know that other artists have been doing that show for the number of years, and you want to know what their sales are, and it brings out the same people every year. So, I’ve actually gotten into galleries by doing shows like that, because a new gallery, what they go in Maine or Cape Cod or something, they’ll go to the local show to find artists, and I got invited into a gallery that way. You have to be open to opportunities, you have to be friendly, but your work has to sell. They, I’ll tell you, it’s not a secret, and Monique used to say to this, this to me, she said, gallery gallery owners only care about one thing, will their clients buy your art, because if they don’t, they’re going to go out of business, they do you know that even back I don’t know what they are now, but like the the rental fees on on Main Street in Scottsdale, Arizona, used to be between 40 and $60,000 a month, and they had a staff and they had lighting. Can you imagine what would happen if they had a couple bad months of sales, they, and that’s why during the recession it was like a ghost town, there only the gal, the galleries that stayed open that had been open multi-generational, like Trailside and Legacy, they stayed open, but they carried a different set of artists, and a lot of the other galleries did, so, so let’s get back to the difference now today, and I thought about this, and today I see a huge move of people who are, we’ll talk about collectors, and there aren’t many collectors or patrons anymore. There are art buyers, but they’re tired of spending time online. They don’t go to Instagram, although I found that if somebody says what kind of art do you do, and I’m in a social setting, you know, line dance or whatever, I will just pull up the first page of my Instagram, you know, which has like nine images on it, and I’ll say they’re like, oh, wow, you know, they’re they’re not art collectors, they look like photographs, you know, that’s what they say, that’s a compliment, that’s all they know to say, and and so I say, well, if you’d like one, just click on it, you’ll get a bigger view, then they click on it and I leave it at that, and then we go on, and we just do other stuff, because I don’t - I have learned over the years not to tie anyone down talking to them, because they don’t know how to excuse themselves, and if you’re an outdoor show, you know how they will excuse themselves, is they will ask for your card, it’s an exit strategy for them, so sometimes, yeah, it’s usually an exit strategy. So you want to make relationships, and the best way to make relationships in any opening setting is to not promote your art, not don’t just start talking about your art, talk about their favorite subject, them. I learned this from Jack White, he was a great marketer, he used to write for fine art views too, and it really works. It’s so easy to talk to other people. Where are you from? You know. Oh, yeah, yeah. I’ve been there, always in that beautiful, you know, great. What brings you here? Second home, you know? Just be interested in that. Then you’ll get some people who want to just talk forever. So, what you do is you invite them to go look at the artwork, and then you just leave them alone. If they’re interested in something, you will find that, and I’m just talking in a non-gallery shows setting, if they’re interested in something. Me, you will see them staring at it for a while. If they leave and say, well, we’re, we’ll come back, they never come back, they never come back. But when you see them staring at something, you don’t try. I don’t try to sell them, I try to give them confidence in my, in their decision to like my artwork, because I’m not forcing them to like something about it, but maybe I’ll say, well, you know, what is it? Why, why are you looking at this? Is it, does it remind you of something? Do you collect that thing? I’ve, you know, I’ve gotten yes from different answers, and you find out, well, what is it about this painting that they like, and, and you just really concentrate on that one painting, and you tell them a little bit, don’t tell them, oh, this painting had great meaning for me, and I, I have had artist friends do that, and the people walk away because your meaning for them isn’t their meaning for them, and they actually don’t want you to ruin it for them, so it’s all about them, so you want to always make it about them, they connected somehow to your artwork, and sometimes you know you do shows one year and people connect, and the next year same show nobody connects, or it happens, it’s it happens, it’s you never know what will happen, but you have to be prepared to to communicate and engage with people who seem to like your work, I remember doing outdoor shows where, where I’d be, you know, people come in. I don’t force people to come in my booth. I’ve seen people who do that, and they’ll be polite, but they can’t wait to get back out. They don’t want any pressure sales pressure at all? You sell things by making a relationship, so they come in to looking at around. I said, I don’t. I’m not trying to talk you into buying things, but I’m always interested to see it every show I do. What is grabbing people’s attention, and I said, if I were to say, “Okay, I’m going to give you one a painting in my booth today, which one would you choose? And I’m not going to tell you what everybody else chose, but this is just information for me to see what’s connecting, and they will engage them. It makes a memory for them, and if they come back next year, they’ll probably stop by my booth. And when I’m first started out, I needed to do a lot of that, because nobody was interested in buying mine, because they, they were buying Monique’s or Harriet’s, or, you know, they came all prepared to this year. I want a Monique, you know, or, or whatever. They didn’t know me or see me, and there there was a little competition within the shows, so I’d bring my painting a lot of times I, I won second or third place in a category, and of course I could display that ribbon early on, and I almost always sold that painting. Social proof, social proof is really important. So that’s the outdoor show circuit, it can be a lot of fun. It takes some time to build up a clientele. Everything takes some time. The internet, you know, we watch these.. we watch people like Mark Magior. He was broke for so long, we forget that Bill Anton, who’s. who’s a great Western painter at Legacy Gallery and other galleries, that he didn’t have a lot of money when he first started out. His wife had to have a job, you know. This is the reality of it. So, don’t be in a hurry and create that body work. So, let me talk about what a body of work is. Everything, all your success boils down to the quality and saleability of your artwork. It must compete with whatever venue you sell it with it. Has to, you know, I used to think I could walk into a gallery in Scottsdale with one painting. Hi, I’m an artist, right? I was so naive, but it has to be priced to fit. Into that venue, but a body of work is finished. It can be any style, it can be different subject matter, but I’d say have at least 10 of your best works, have them framed and ready to hang in a, in a frame that you’ve chosen that you know that works for your work across the board, and you know you want, you want it to look like you know what you’re doing, and yes, you need a website, even if people, people think, I’ve got a website, I’m going to sell all my art for women. No, it just makes you look like a professional. People know that you’re in it for real, that you’re serious about it. And I have sold work from my website to people who have searched because I painted landscapes of places, they, I mean, I’ve sold several of people searched for that place of paintings of that place, and came to my website, and I shipped it. They weren’t scams, we had long conversations on the phone, and, and, and they could buy from my website, either using most of them, you know, they wanted to use credit cards, some use paypal, some sent me a check, and I, you know, it took a little bit longer, and I had to, I had to ship it to them, and and that worked out quite well, and remind me to talk about how I used to use my website to sell as I was artist in residence at a BMB luxury BMB when I visited Tucson in February, which was it’s the top visiting month in Tucson. So I had a credit card reader, you know, Square, Square up, but I tended not to use it because I didn’t want to carry all that. It kind of ruins the mood, you know, when you’re, when you’re eating breakfast with the BNB guests, and you know, and your work’s all sitting over there, and you don’t, you know, it’s, it’s sort of an extra bonus. I gave the owners the B and B, they were friends of mine, and I gave them a 20% on all the sales, so they kept what I didn’t sell, and they sold some even after I left. But here’s the key, and I’ll just put this in here, because I’m meandering anyway. But I, what I did was, I pull up my website, and I pull up the painting that that they wanted it, and if I didn’t have the painting on there, I could take a picture of it right there and post it. They could choose it, they could enter their credit card information right there, and oh, and please sign up for my email newsletter. And almost everybody who bought from my from me at the BMB went home, they were small paintings. I painted some of them while I was there. They went home and they bought again from my email newsletter. So back in the day, I don’t know how this works now, but people who bought your paintings in the past were six times more likely to buy again from you, so okay, now we were talking about how is, how about today? My premise was for artists who are just starting out, nothing is different, and nothing is different, because people who are interested in buying art want real print magazines now. They don’t want to be going online all the time, they don’t want to look at your Instagram account, and everybody else is, you know that just really interrupts their minds when they can scroll, and they get, and our minds get so confused. So, the way that things are the same is that you do the body of work, you go to the studio, do something you love, don’t get stuck in a rut that you’re going to hate being stuck in, because you will get known for something, whether it’s it’s locally, regionally, or nationally, and people. Collectors, even on the high level, will say, well, I’ve got enough of that. If they’re not buying for an investment, they’ll say, well, I have three of this artists already. They like variety now. There, I don’t see any patrons who were not investors who aren’t mixing it up, so you, you, you create the body of work, and I wanted to do this this year because I wanted to. I’ve learned a lot, and I want to. I moved to Arizona in 2020 I lived here when I was young, but I moved back from New England, and so you, if you want to sell in Arizona, you got to paint the West. People want what’s ever outside their window. If they’re on vacation and they’re at a tourist place, they might, they might want a seascape, they still life sells everywhere. Kathy Anderson, friend of mine, she sells almost all her still lifes at Legacy Gallery in Scottsdale. Daniel Keys sells his still lifes at Legacy Gallery in Scottsdale. So, if you’re good enough, and people just, you know, they love your work, and it can go anywhere in the country, but in New England, you, I painted Acadia National Park and Maine, because all the resort tourist towns were either in Cape Cod or they were in Maine, New Hampshire rights really didn’t buy much art, so, so I’m creating a body of work, and I need to cut out the false desire and need of posting continuously online, because my body of work is not ready yet, and we feel as artists that we’re so compelled, like, well, everybody’s saying you’re supposed to do reels, and you know you’ll get more engagement, blah blah blah blah. Do you know what? I’d get more engagement if I was already famous, but I’m not going to get, I have about 3000 followers on Instagram, and I, a number of years ago, I sought out to create relationships with Instagram users that were not artists who were lived in beautiful homes on the main coast, or their photographers, or they do other things, and I find them. We used to be able to find them with hashtags, so I’d find them, I’d go to their page, and I’d like, and I’d comment on their stuff, and I’d comment a lot, and all they needed to do was just click on my name and go to my page. Well, I have doctors, and there’s an eye surgeon who’s a photographer who said I could use any of his stuff. He follows me, so I’m getting likes from a very small crowd from people who are not artists, and they tend to like everything that I post, because I don’t post very often, you know, that’s a waste of my time, and not only that, but then I feel like I must go on and like everybody else’s stuff and give them out of boys and out of girls and everything. Well, before I know it, I’m just totally worn out, and I haven’t spent any time in studio, and and I’m getting tired of complimenting other artists’ artwork, and I don’t know about you, Laura, but I got to say that this has been going on for a number of years. Previously, with Facebook, is that I come away from social media feeling like a complete failure when I’m not, because I cannot help but notice people are posting, I got into this show and that show, and here’s my wallet at the Briscoe, and you know, and I feel like, you know, it’s big time FOMO, and and I am not going to probably, probably not going to be in their position, mostly because I, I don’t want to really have that kind of pressure in my life, but I come away feeling pretty bad some days, I think. Think that social media can make an artist feel like, why bother, you know, and do you know that’s false, because I can post one of my paintings on there. We have a private Facebook page in the retirement community where I live, and I don’t, you can’t sell stuff, but I just post what I’m working on, and stuff like that. The residents have bought my paintings, and you know, I don’t, you know, they’re they’re usually small studies, or whatever, and they have the means to buy it. They don’t ever want to have to go to a gallery, they’re not collectors, but they know me and they like my work. So that private page, which is a much smaller group, is a really good place on Facebook for me to post. So anyway, I just wanted to mention that I think you, you talked about social media losing users and people not wanting to use social media. I hear of artists all the time that are saying, oh my goodness, you know, I have an Instagram account, I’m posting, and you know what, people just scroll and they stop when they see something that blows them away, you know, or they know the person, or they think, oh, wow, that that artist is really successful, I want to be like that, you know, but they’re not buying a gallery owner or a manager recently said to me about an artist that posts every single day or multiple times a day, and she’s very successful, but he said, “Where’s the magic? He says, “Where’s.. where’s the the magic that the collector is looking for? You know, so I just thought I’d throw that out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:15

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out, ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 16th of July with our special guest Vladislav Yelisaev. You can find a sign-up link in the show notes. Yeah, no, and it’s, it’s really interesting that you also mentioned the what I like to call the content creation hamster wheel of I have to post something, I have to be present, people are going to forget that I exist, and it does kind of feel that way, and I’ve actually been in and out of social media, like I maybe posted two things in the past four years, because I got so tired, I was, I wrote once, like I’m on hiatus, you want to reach me, go to my website, email me through there, and I did have some people reach out, you know, like, oh, How are you doing, are you okay, and those are the people who actually matter because they are genuinely care, but yeah, I think the way that the algorithm works is just, it’s, it does not lend itself to the level of observation you would get if you go to a museum, if you go to a show, like no one’s, no one’s gonna look at a tiny square image for 20 minutes, the way you would at a museum or at a show, because the whole purpose of the app is to not do that. It’s like it’s to just, okay, I see it, it fills my entire view, because it is a tiny square, and then you move on,

Lori Woodward: 1:04:21

and you move on, and you move on until you’re absolutely exhausted. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:26

and then, and then that brings me to internet fatigue, which is what I’m starting to notice, that I think more people want real-life interaction, real-life everything, like even here in Stockholm, like, I feel like everyone goes outside. Obviously, it’s a summer, and, like, love the sun, but there’s also a level of, like, oh, there’s an event happening over here, we should totally go, or, oh, there’s this happening over there, or, like, there’s a very

Lori Woodward: 1:04:55

dimensional world. Yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:57

exactly. So, I think now we’re reaching the point where the. Pendulum is starting to swing the other direction, and that’s why I have heard marketers say that there are less users interacting on Instagram, and a good portion of the stuff that’s going on is actually just bots, or it is, you know, unfortunately, there are people out there, even on YouTube, every social media platform, who will use fake accounts to manipulate engagement, so it’s

Lori Woodward: 1:05:26

a waste of time. It is. It

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:28

is because half the time you might get like a weird comment on one of your posts, or you might get a weird follow and it turns out to be a bot, so then the follow you got gets removed. So even in that sense it just, if everything feels very, what’s the word in English, like fake, like it just feels like very, like plastic, like it just doesn’t feel like you’re you’re interacting with real people either, like it’s so funny to see people argue with each other online, because it’s easy, right. It’s easy to argue with somebody you’re not looking in the eye, right? Or it’s easy to like talk to someone and say things you would never actually say to anyone in real life when you’re not physically there with them. You wouldn’t have the bravery to do that, right?

Lori Woodward: 1:06:16

And then you walk away feeling irritable. Yes, we don’t need that,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:21

no, or

Lori Woodward: 1:06:22

you read, you see somebody else having an argument, it’s kind of puts you in a bad mood, and then you know that that doesn’t make you want to go and do beautiful art, but you know what, I want to just cite what I’m seeing at gallery openings recently, I can go to some that are a little bit closer to home now that I live in the Tucson area, and then I want to talk about if you’re open to it, about if I were just entering the market in today, and I wanted to be established in the market, where would I spend my time, and what what steps would I take, and so I, what I’m seeing at the gallery opening, I’ve been going to the Settlers Westminster show since the late 90s, it’s been going on forever, it’s in February during the Gem and Mineral show. It’s usually around Valentine’s Day. It’s the biggest tourist time of the year. Now, years ago, they didn’t sell the works from the internet. You had to actually attend, and all works are sold by draw, and if you don’t know what that is, there’s a little box, and you put your name in it, and they pull out the box, and, and you know, they pull the first name, so it’s kind of funny, because I’ve been.. I wasn’t in the show years ago, but some of my friends from Putney were, and they said,’Could you go over and shake my box and see if there’s anything in it, you know, before they’d start pulling the names at usually at about 7o’clock in the evening. So people would come, collectors would come in to to buy from Oklahoma, they fly in from all kinds just to be there to get one of those paintings, and so especially the more famous expensive artists, if they were big collectors. So I put my name in a box a couple times, you know, to buy somebody else’s work, but I, my name didn’t get chosen. Now the exciting thing is that when, when there were a lot of people that wanted the same painting, and it could be expensive because it’s an established artist or it’s a new artist, and they would, they would get the box, and there’d be so many names, you know, stuffed in there, that they’d have to open the box and pull out a salad bowl full of papers for that one painting, and it could be, you know, back then, maybe it could be $5,000 you know, Jeremy Lipkin was in the show, and his would always get the bowl full, and so then they passed the bowl to somebody who’s sitting in the audience at the gallery, and it was so crowded you could barely move. It was so exciting. There was no place to park, and they pull out this bowl, and somebody would have to pull out. They still do this. There are still salad bowls full. They pull out the name, and somebody would, you know, maybe it’s $5,000$6,000 or $10,000 but. Pull out the name, and inevitably that person would scream with delight, and usually a woman, if it was a couple, the woman would scream, and everybody else would go, “Oh, because they didn’t get it, so there’s a sense of competition, which is great, and so in middle years when they did start taking names online, the crowds didn’t come. They weren’t there at the opening. In fact, I remember Scott Jones saying at Legacy Gallery when the Putney painters had the show. He says,”You know, only the artists show up to the openings these days. Everybody else just calls up on the phone, says I want that painting, first come first serve, and they, they sold before the opening night, so there were a lot of red dots already before opening night, so that was so true. It’s like all the artists go to the openings. Well, now again, what I’m seeing is a difference where people, where the room is full again, and people are competing, and they love, they love competing with each other for these, these, and they tend to be newer, younger artists, but sometimes they’re the older established artists, and sometimes they don’t compete for my work, but I have sold two out of the three years, so I’m happy about that. But it’s just an exciting to see that things are going back the way they were, and I’ve also had the chance to go to several openings at Medicine Man Gallery, Mark Seb Blitz Gallery, which is huge, she’s got shows going on all the time, and, and so those openings are full assured there’s artists that come up, but they’re mostly the artists that actually show in the gallery that attend, maybe they live in Arizona, there are a lot of collectors there, and then with Thomas Blackshear, they had a talk afterwards. I even bought something I couldn’t afford, the cowboys heads that were $25,000 but they all sold every single one, and they sold at the opening. There were people there who wanted to meet the artist, and I was so exciting. I was excited to buy a little drawing, a study that he did, you know, just to be part of it. And so I’m seeing a return to old times. If I could turn back Time Song by Cher, I would go back to the way that in some ways that art was sold before the internet. I’m seeing people buy print magazines, the big shows and auctions, and even artists. My friend Darcy Pete, who she comes down to Tucson for the winters, and she sells at a number of galleries around the United States, and she’s part of our little group that talks business on Wednesday. She’s great, and so she advertises in this in this in art Western art collector, other magazines, quarter page ad continuously, and I, she usually sells that painting, so I asked her, well, why, you know, what do you get from doing this? You know, it’s expensive, she said. “Well, I don’t ever expect. I’m not doing it to sell. I’m doing it to keep myself visible with collectors, and just to let them know that I’m a professional, I’m active, I’m out there, so I don’t just disappear from their view, and she’s advertising in the same magazines, and she puts the link in the magazine ad to the show at Settlers West, or to the show at her. She’s in number galleries, she only sells through galleries, so she just always puts the link to the gallery. Now you might, artists might think, well, that’s so unfair. Why would I do that? Why would you do it? Because they have collectors that you will never reach, and that’s why you want to work with. If your work is good enough to get into a gallery, then you can always sell on your own, but you’ve had validation like never before, even if it’s just a local regional gallery, you know. I can, I can cite friends and stuff that sell it at village galleries, they’re like the gallery on most. Most of the crooks are gone, so you know we don’t have to worry about that anymore, but the gallery owner has a different set of clientele who they are the gallery’s clientele, they want to be the gallery’s clientele, they don’t want to be your clientele, and I’ll tell you why, because I know a lot of collectors, they don’t want the artist contacting them, because they’re loyal to galleries to buy their art. The gallery vets the work, they’re not going to sell, they trust the gallery owner that’s been in business for a while, whatever, to vet the work, and they’re not going to sell something that they don’t think is valuable or worthy of being in their gallery, so they are loyal to galleries, and so I think artists need to know that, because they say, well, why won’t they give us the name of the people? Two reasons. It’s not like they’re trying to be stingy, of course. Artists used to go behind the gallery’s back and try to sell directly. Well, that doesn’t happen very much anymore, and the reason why it doesn’t happen very much anymore, is because the person who bought your artwork, for the most part, wants to remain anonymous. They do, they want to buy from a variety of artists, they don’t, they’re they want to have a collection, they’re having the time of their lives because they have the money to collect original art, they actually compete with each other at the shows, and it’s not about the artist. I realized this recently when I finally got into the Settlers West show. I asked, I said, Stuart, you know, do you think my work would sell at this show, that’s all he cares about. I’ve known him for years and years, and years ago, no, it wouldn’t have, it wouldn’t have been good enough. It is good enough to sell, but not at that show. And he said, well, let’s try it out and see how it goes. Now, if you don’t sell anything for two or three years at that show, you’re just not going to stay there. That’s just the way it is, and that’s the way it is at all galleries at all levels. They just cannot afford a wall space for an artist that’s not selling. I got, I got kicked out of ant gallery back in the day when watercolor was hot, and when G Clay Prince came out, watercolor fell sales of water because they couldn’t tell the difference, oils came into folks, so I had to go up and pick up all my watercolors at the gallery in Maine, and and then another artist, she was watercolorist, and same exact thing. Well, she was so depressed. I drove her. I took her out to lunch. We went to the other side of town of Kennebunkport. There was a gallery owner I knew over there. He had a lot of more watercolorists, so we had all our paintings in the car, and and we walked in, and I said to him, I said, “You know, she’s an incredible artist, you should see her watercolors, she’s just so good. And he said, “Oh, sure, said I have some in the car, would you mind if I brought a few in? And I’m so brave, I brought him in. He looked at him. He was blown away. Of course, she’s good. The other gallery couldn’t sell watercolors anymore. That was the problem. So he was in Dock Square, more of, you know, shops and stuff nearby restaurants. So, so we brought him in. I’m going out to get the paintings. She’s still in there, and he said to her, “She’s your agent, isn’t she? And she said, “No, she’s just a friend. Anyway, he took almost all the paintings on the spot, so you never know, you know. Don’t give up if you’ve got good work, and you know comparison is the thief of joy. Just don’t compare yourself to the top artists online, you will not give yourself enough credit. Yes, it has to be good. Yes, people have to want to buy it. Yes, it has to emotionally connect with them. Perfect, perfectly composed paintings don’t sell because they’re perfectly composed. The buyers don’t know anything about composition. They don’t care that the tree’s right in the middle or the horizon. They don’t care. They think it’s truth and beauty. They connect with it. Don’t even worry about that. Not worth it. So, so, where was it going? The galleries, you know, people are wanting to go on real vacations. They want to be in places, they want to eat out at real restaurants. They want, they people do have a lot, especially retirement crowds and stuff. They have a lot of money, they have a lot of time. What are they going to do with it all, well, maybe they want to buy, maybe they have second homes, they want to buy artwork. Now, interestingly, another thing that gallery owner said to me recently, because I’m always asking questions, is do they care, you know, for artists like me who aren’t the superstars, I’m not going to be investment or resold on the market. It’s just true. And I asked, well, so for artists like me who do not have a national reputation right now, but I can, I can’t sell at the gallery shows, do they care about signature memberships? Do they care about hidden? Said no, no way. They don’t care. They don’t even look at who painted the painting. They just buy what they like. And I said, oh, well, that changes everything for me. That gives me a lot of freedom. That means that I can paint a portrait of a cowboy. I love to paint portraits. That means that I can paint landscape, I can paint, I can give a variety of artwork, because it’s about them, it’s not about me at my level, it’s about them creating a conversation piece, a beautiful thing for their home or homes, usually they own more than one, so that just gives me the freedom to paint whatever I want, and I’m seeing even, you know, nationally known career artists who paint, you know, in the West, they might paint, you know, Native Americans, they might paint floral still lifes, they might paint landscapes. Kyle Ma just had a sellout show at Legacy Gallery, he had a number of floral still lifes, he’s a little bit more famous for his landscapes. He sold them all. Now he’s got a name, he’s got that halo around his head, you know. People know his name, but I’m seeing other artists who are, you know, new, pretty new to the scene, who are painting different subject matter, and it’s not even an established style, but they’re painting different subject matter, and they’re, they’re very well painted, they’re representational, of course, they’re not photo realism by any means, but they’re selling both in the same show, and then after people buy the artist, then they might want to know more about the artist, but they originally bought the painting just because they liked it, so I think a lot of what artists think actually happens in the art world doesn’t, it’s just it’s what you’ve heard in the long past, it’s but I know from experience and watching people that there’s a lot of freedom out there on every level, so you know, artists who sell it, local gift shops and stuff, they get a whole wall. The owners just thrilled to have them. They sell everything, and everyone loves them. Who could ask for more than that? Right.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:01

Yeah, yeah,

Lori Woodward: 1:24:01

so do you have any other questions? How are we doing on time?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:07

I think we’re getting close to the end, but I mean, I feel like there’s always so much beyond even just like what we’ve got left to discuss, that like,

Lori Woodward: 1:24:20

oh, pricing,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:22

yeah, that’s actually the next thing I really wanted to cover, because I think that’s like one of the top questions every single artist out there will ever ask, especially when we’re starting out, is how the heck do you come up like a really good pricing strategy that you know if you’re going to purchase a gallery or if you’re going to go and sell, you know, at a show, or you know, an outdoor show of some sort, like what would you recommend?

Lori Woodward: 1:24:49

Okay, so pricing is a really big area, and I wrote a blog years and years ago for American artists, they’re online, it was their number one buy. Um, hit blog for a decade, so artists, it’s very confusing, but your price matters more about where the arts being sold than anything. You can’t arbitrarily price, you can’t arbitrarily put a high price on work unless you’ve got proven sales at that price, so it’s better to start out low. In fact, gallery owner said keep, keep it on the low side, because you know the economy could, could dictate that people, people aren’t going to buy a painting because it’s more expensive unless they’re investing, so you want to keep it reasonable, but you want to always make a profit. There’s no sense in giving your art away. There’s no sense in selling art. If it doesn’t sell, then you just gotta get better. You know that, that’s your, that’s your cue, that’s your wake-up call. But once you do start selling, you, if you’re just starting out, and I did this, and I recommend it to other artists, maybe they’re doing a show at a, oh, I don’t know, country club or outdoor show, or whatever, something where they don’t have to invest a lot of money that you take every single cost that it costs you to make that that work of art, the frame, the materials, part of the show fees, whatever you know, it can split that up, you want to calculate every single cost that it costs you, and then you want to double that to get your retail price, and that way you make a profit. And if somebody wants a little bit, 10% of a discount, I never give a discount unless to buy more than one painting, because it just doesn’t happen that way, but but but, yeah, so you double the cost, you get a retail price, and you know, when you’re just starting out, you need quality materials, because it’s just paintings just look better on linen than they look on canvas, you know, it’s easier to paint on quality materials, you want things to be archival, but you know, so maybe, maybe my costs, or you know, 300 bucks, because I’m not, you know, starting out, I’m not at the the point where my paint, my frames cost 300 bucks, you know, so if so, I’d say, well, my costs are this now. If I work through somebody who takes a commission, then I’m going to add that commission, and it’s important when you work with a gallery that you double the cost of all your your supplies, including your frame, because let’s say I spent $150 on the frame, it’s not unheard of, even if it’s a little one, if I say before we even talking about, you know, the gallery commission, I want to get all that money back for that frame, so I’m going to double that, because most galleries are going to take 50 or 40% so I double the cost of the frame, so we’re, we’re talking 304 $100 of my supplies, we’re not even talking about my time or expertise, but I’m going to at least get back everything that I’ve, that’s cost me. I’m only just getting paid for getting better when I’m first starting out. No, but I want to make profit. I do not want to come home with in the hole knowing I lost money, I never sell to somebody who can’t afford to buy original art, and yeah, you know the reason why is that you don’t go around feeling sorry for people like, oh, well, I want to be able to give art to people that you know, if you’ve got family members, just give them a painting, don’t sell it to them, and and then Monique used to say, I’m not in the charity business, I’m in business, and as, as an artist, a professional artist who wants to make a career out of it, you are a small business, and you have to run it like a business, and it needs to be profitable at every step of the stage. Keep your expenses as low as you can. Don’t try to do shows that it cost you too much. Don’t, don’t pay for ads. I did that early on. I took my best painting, put it on newspaper that was in Scottsdale. Well, I ended up on the same page next to Kevin McPherson. How’s that going to go over, right? Yeah, they made money for me, but I didn’t make anything, so you know, make sure that your work is vetted. It takes a while. Be patient with yourself. Spend, spend as much time as you can in the studio. Here’s another thing that I would do, that I’m doing, is I chunk my weak parts. The stuff I really have trouble with, it’s holding me back from being productive, it’s a, it’s a term that Brian Mark Taylor came up with a number of years ago, says take the thing that you’re weakest with and just do little studies of that part until it’s your strength, take the time to do that, and you will have a lot more fun, and you will get work done a lot faster, so with the pricing, once you sold a work at a certain price, like I just sold my, my eight by 10 at the miniature show, it’s on the low side for $950 I sold my nine by 12 for $980 yeah, my frames were very expensive. I made an investment myself, but I still came home with money in my pocket, right? If I start selling, I cannot sell. I do not sell at where I live in the auditorium. People say, why don’t you sell there? I said, because it doesn’t respect the people who already spent that much money on my artwork, so I can’t undercut, and why would I want to if I can get somebody to buy my work for $950 Why would I want to sell it for any less? So don’t, don’t backtrack once you start selling it, shows that is your retail price, and if you sell most of your work at that retail price, or it all sells too quick, don’t don’t take a huge leap in price just because somebody else who’s really famous is cost so much more. Test the market, raise it by 10% for the next year, or whatever, if you’re really selling out, you can, I mean, if, if your work’s so cheap, everybody’s buying it all the time, raise it by 20% The people who already buy your work will be thrilled, because they’re like, wow, I got a bargain, you know, and this person’s going places, but for the time being, for me, I’m not going to raise my prices. I asked, should I raise my prices this year, and the answer was probably no. There’s a lot of artists that come in, they sell, and they, and they raise their prices too high, too fast, and they just price themselves right out of the market, so, so that’s that’s my advice on pricing to get started, go from there, and it’s a slow growth process, just just know that we’re looking at people online, we don’t see what they did, how they were 10 years ago, you know, but for most of us, there are superstars like Rachel Brownlee, who did the Mountain Oyster Club show three years ago, got an award, sold her painting, her work is spectacular and unique, and must take her hours and hours to get it done, and so she went right to the top, and just a few years later she’s in Legacy Gallery, she’s in Prix de West, but if you look at her work, how many of us could even begin to produce the kind of work that she does, you know, and so there’s a reason why that happened to her, and it’s because of the quality and just the epicness of her artwork, she was doing that for years, and a friend of hers said, “You know what? You should see, you should enter the show and see if you can get in, and that’s what started all. But her work was ready. I know artists that they don’t feel ready, but I mean, I’ve had, you know, studio mates, I don’t feel ready. I don’t feel ready for a gallery. I don’t feel I need to sell my work daily paintings for 20 bucks. I’m going to be nuts. You’re really good, you’re really consistent. And I said, you know what, you’re not ready, but your work is ready. You could be paid. Playing a much bigger game, and she didn’t. She just had a solo show last year at a major gallery in Maine, so there you go.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:35:08

Yeah, yeah, I think didn’t

Lori Woodward: 1:35:11

get there right away, but she got there.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:35:13

Yeah, I mean, there was still all the time that she put into developing her work, right, which actually you mentioned earlier about voice, which I kind of now really want to circle back to that really quick, but yeah, it’s one of those things where, like, some people, they’re a little too overconfident, and they jump too early, and then there are people who are not confident enough, and they use every other thing as an excuse to not do it, which is perfectly normal. It can be, I think, one of the things probably is also like the higher expectations and commitment that you have to have when you’re working with a gallery, specifically with a gallery, because their timelines are so, so strict, right? If you have to have work for a specific show or another show, like, you really like you said, you have to be prolific, or you have to have some sort of really strict studio time, and I think, for, oh, yeah, that’s so

Lori Woodward: 1:36:11

important,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:36:11

yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a huge commitment,

Lori Woodward: 1:36:15

yeah, huge. I once had a gallery, I used to help get other artists into galleries who were already established locally, and gallery owner in Scottsdale said to me, don’t bring me anybody who isn’t painting at least 75 works a year minimum, because that’s what it’s going to take for them to work with galleries and I think that’s pretty much true, because you look at most of the artists, you know, who are career full-time artists making a living, and they, yeah, they teach and stuff too, but they aren’t, you know, maybe they’re in four galleries, they’ve got to keep those walls full, so they, you know, you’re making not only you’re making a huge commitment to the quality of your artwork, but to the production of it. And if you don’t think that you’re cut out to do that, like me, you can still sell your work. I still sell my work. I want to do small work shows invitation. I don’t want to be represented by a gallery, because I think that pressure would throw me over the top. Just being in the small work shows with nationally known artists has been a little bit intimidating for me for the first time in my life, but I just know I’m not going to meet that need. I’m not going to be in the studio all the time. I’m not ready to make that commitment, but that’s okay. It just means I’m going to sell my work on a smaller scale, and I’m happy with that. So, okay, so we cover pricing,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:01

yes, and I wanted to circle back really quick about voice, because I mean,

Unknown: 1:38:06

yes, of course,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:07

I do want to, like, after that, I do want to do, like, a little bit for our listeners, kind of like a checklist type of, like, bing bang boom, if you’re starting out as an artist, like, this is what you got to do, so we can make a little bit of like a summary, yeah, because it’s just it’s a lot, but yeah, so voice, I think that’s another huge, huge, huge thing that a lot of artists, thank

Lori Woodward: 1:38:31

you for bringing

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:32

about, yeah, because it’s like, oh, how do I develop my voice, or what is, what is even a voice, or like, what’s is that different from style, and, like, you know, bada bing, bada boom. Do you mind telling us a bit more? I

Lori Woodward: 1:38:45

can give you examples.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:47

Perfect.

Lori Woodward: 1:38:47

So, so you had the paint in us. Don’t try to paint like somebody else just because they’re successful, and the only way that you’re going to get to find your voice is to paint all the time, do a bunch of studies, find out what works. I mean, I’m, I’ve been painting for 50 years, and I’ll try something out, and I’ll go, well, that was cool. I’m going to try that again, and I want to use my friend Karen Bruces as a, an example. She was the person who did the daily paintings for a long time. She’s very prolific. She did graphic arts before she got into fine art. She’s all she and her husband have always had their own businesses, so they’re really, really excellent at running business, but her, she’s got a very bright contemporary palette, and she paints, she paints for still life. Paints people, she used to paint mug shots. She, she painted room interiors that were just.. I mean, I bought some, and now she’s in a main gallery in Kennebunkport that she got into as a recommendation by a friend who was in that gallery, who saw her work and had the owner come out and and visit her studio, that the best way to get into a gallery is to have another artist who’s in there recommend it. Her style is so recognizable, and it is it. I’ve seen the style. She went from the Daily Painter style, no, Sarah Sedgwick, and, and others, but she developed her own color palette, and it’s very bright, sort of transparent oils, and you cannot walk by one of her paintings and not notice it. It’s just, they are just delightful and fun, and they just give you a good feeling, and she’s, she sells everything, no matter what, what the subject is, of course. When she’s, you know, painting for the gallery along the coast, it’s a seasonal- all those are seasonal galleries. She’s going to paint. She paints people on the beach, you know, carrying lawn chairs and umbrellas and stuff, or kids and inner tubes in the in the waves, and you just know it’s her painting, or lobster boats, or you know, whatever, she developed that style. I watched her develop that style, and she didn’t. She painted continuously fast. She didn’t spend a lot of time worrying about whether it’s coming out, you know. She didn’t think painting was good. She says, “I’ll just put it in the antique shop, we’ll just sell it over there, you know, and and she’s just paints, paints, paints, paints. She doesn’t have a lot of time, so I think she only spends two or three hours a day painting, but she is, she’s become sort of a formula painter, and and I find that people who paint formulas can paint different subjects, but you find your style really fast by just painting and experimenting and being willing to throw stuff out. Oh my gosh, you know, some of my mentors say they cut up their paintings and throw them away, and those are paintings that would be my very best if I could do them, but that’s how you find your voice. You find your voice by enjoying, risking just painting every day without putting a lot of pressure on yourself. You know, it’s just paint. Richard Schmidt used to say that to me, Laurie, it’s just paint. You know, you can scrape it off, you don’t care, it’s, it’s, it’s not who you are, your reputation, just paint, just do it, and that’s how not only do you, you improve by repetition, by failing, by experimentation, and you know if you’re doing that all the time, you’re going to end up with a pretty good body of work, which you can select from, and then maybe you get a little bit selective about, you know, which ones you take to a show, or you, Karen, and I, Karen Bruce, and a number of others of us, you know, back in 2012 I joined their shared studio. It was in a mill building that was run down, but it had a lot of artisans in there, so every they had classes, they had shops, and perfect. We turned the front area, had beautiful windows, lights, French doors into our gallery, and we sold a lot of artwork. We all worked in the back, but we had lights on. We just turned. We just owned that gallery, and we had such freedom. Collaboration between artists is a beautiful thing, especially if you get a group of artists where you’re all just really pretty easy going. Works great. great, but Karen developed style. My friend Monique Sakalarius, she had - she had a formula, so her pain - she painted all her underpants with red, she painted French impressionistically. She had formal training, but she just, everybody recognized her work, and she painted about 200 paintings a year, so, and she sold most of them.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:44:49

Amazing.

Lori Woodward: 1:44:50

Yeah, so, and then another guy, Dennis Sheehan, he’s he’s gearing down now that he’s older, he’s teaching a lot. But he did paint about 400 paintings a year, and he, he, he followed a formula, so he made a lot of money, he had a family to support, you know, there’s he, he did, he did his work was very, very well collected, so just go for it. Play around, find out what you like, experiment. Don’t spend too much on supplies, and say,”Well, if I only try pastel, maybe no. Don’t just stick to one, get very good with it, understand it. Expect to make a lot of failed paintings. Okay, but you’re going to fail your way up to success,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:45:46

absolutely. And then to kind of close off the conversation before we hear about where people can reach out to you, do you mind giving us just like a recap, right? If someone is starting out today and they decide, okay, I’m going to do this full time, what’s like top things for them to really set their sights on?

Lori Woodward: 1:46:15

Well, make create a vision, a vision that is specific, that’s reachable in the short term, that you believe that you can actually do it. Don’t you know, dreams don’t go very far. What, what happens is the next step goes far. So create a vision that you can reach within the next year or two, expect there to be stuff that doesn’t work out, but it, if you don’t try, you won’t get there. I study with mentors, and in the area, I study with people who, whose work I don’t want to emulate them, because I’m not a copycat kind of person, but they can teach principles that I think will help me, and I have more than one mentor, and I don’t tell them about the other mentors, because they actually get jealous, but so study, improve, make sure that go to go to regional galleries, or you know, tourist areas. Do not walk in like you’re a collector. Do not walk up to every painting and look how it’s done, and comment and look at the price, because collectors never do that. They walk in, they don’t look at the price, they don’t look up close, they don’t care about how it’s painting, they just look around, they find something that catches their eye, they walk up to it, but they don’t get real close, because they’re picturing it on the wall, and they only look at the price if they’re thinking about actually buying it, and then they turn around and they look for a staff member, and they want to know more. Okay, so Scott Jones got on my case about that, but he didn’t understand that that you want to see how they treat people who aren’t artists, and so you don’t want to act like an artist, because they’ll ignore you a lot of times. No, it happens. So, go in, visit galleries, find a gallery that isn’t the most expensive, doesn’t have the, you know, super major, you know, well-known artists. There’s lots of galleries on Cape, you know, in tourist areas in Arizona villages. They’ve been in business for a long time. See what the prices are with the artists, you know. Walk up to the gallery owner, see if they’re attentive to you, because a lot of times if they’re not attentive, maybe you don’t want to be in there to ask them, “Oh, tell me about this artist, you know, whatever. Just pretend, find out about the industry, find out, go to Instagram, just to see artists that, who you like. If you look through a magazine, an art magazine, and you just flip through, flip through, and you stop and you dog ear any page that you go ooh and you don’t have to analyze it, justify it, you said ooh and dog ear it, and then you go back and you see what they have in common, and that’s the way that your mo. Is likely to want to paint, it’s true. At least for now, you’ll change in the future, but it’s a starting place. Then you can look up some of those artists online, you can find them, you know, Instagram, social media, whatever, and you’re not trying to be like them, because they’ve been working at this for many years, but it just gives you a direction to move into, to say that’s what I like, that’s my taste, and so I’m going to develop that taste the best I can, see if I can, you know, find some online demos and stuff like that. Don’t even worry about marketing right away until you have that body of work, because you don’t want them saying you’re not ready yet. You want them to say, I’d like to invite you into my gallery, and I’ve had that happen, so you know that’s you want to be, you want to be totally ready to make your debut. Don’t feel rushed, don’t feel pressured, like, oh, you’re supposed to do this and that, the other thing. Don’t feel any pressure, you go at your own pace, because slower is faster.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:51:19

Beautiful. I love that, that is very true, very very true. Yeah, and then do you have any upcoming shows or exhibitions or anything that you would like to promote?

Lori Woodward: 1:51:36

I do the Settlers West miniature show, but what the direction I’m heading is to do more writing again, and I do want to do more marketing research. I’m actively researching what’s working for artists on different levels, artists I’ve known through the years. I just get in contact with them, and I’m going to blog about that. I have a sub stack. Oh no, it’s sort of like, oh, you need more engagement. I think, shut up, I don’t want that. I have about 1500 subscribers to my email newsletter on my website, and most of those are there because I used to write blogs, and so I want to start blogging again. This is the time in my life when I want to contribute and help artists, and so that’s going to be my main thing. I will also post my paintings step by step, and my approach with that has always been even when I’ve done demos for groups and I say, oh, I made it, that was a big goof, I made a mistake. My approach is, I made a mistake, this looks terrible. How do I fix it? You know, because none of us paints perfectly all the time, right. So that’s where I’m going. They should go to my website. They can go to my Instagram if they want. That’s where I post a lot of what I’m currently working on, but I do want to really beef up my blog. I would say that 90% of the visitors that get to my website are coming there for blogs I wrote a long time ago, so that’s who my audience is. It is also a way for me to sell paintings to people who want them, so that’s it. I’m playing a small game now. I’ve done plenty in my younger years,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:53:42

but that’s wonderful, and I think I’m also going to be including all your links. Okay, show notes, but do you mind telling us what your website is?

Lori Woodward: 1:53:51

It’s Laurie L O R I Woodward W O O D W A R d.com just my name.com and my, my, my user number is 5700 It starts. I got that website so long ago.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:54:11

Yeah, you’ve got the, the short numbers. Yeah, that’s how you know you’ve been around for a while, which is amazing. Yeah, but yeah, I think I’m definitely signing up for your newsletter, because I think there’s, you know, you’ve definitely experienced a lot of the art world, the way that it functions, what works, what doesn’t work, and the fact that you’ve experienced it too, like you’ve witnessed artists who experience these types of, like, some of them have had windfalls, some of them have not, some of them have made it work somehow, and that’s, you know, one of the beauties of the art market is precisely that it functions depending on how you function, right? If you don’t like teaching, okay, focus on tackling, if you like teaching, teach. And you can sell on the side, or oh, I just want to do galleries, and I don’t want to talk to anyone. I’m sure you have to be a really, really good painter with a really good connection, but yeah, it’s like you hit the nail

Lori Woodward: 1:55:12

on the head, because, because people want a protocol, and there is no protocol, because we’re all individuals, we have to know who we are and who we are determines on what is realistic for

Laura Arango Baier: 1:55:27

us. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, like kind of like how you said, you know, some some people that they just need to have that prolific quality, that ability to paint fast, and and some people I’ve actually, you know, like Audner Drum, he makes like six paintings a year, and they’re all massive, of course. His price range is different, yeah,

Lori Woodward: 1:55:50

right.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:55:50

Rice range is different, and of course, he’s been around for many, many, many years. So he does have, you know, his collectors from before, but no, he doesn’t really work with galleries.

Lori Woodward: 1:56:03

Yeah, and there is that, there is that option. If I were starting out, I would even get.. I worked with frame shop galleries and local galleries and stuff, and I would start.. I would try to at least get into that, because when people go to your website, who went, I started selling on my own, I left galleries because I wasn’t prolific enough, and I started selling on my own at different venues, even in a high-end antique shop, I rented a booth, I sold everything there, and and I kept in, you know, the people weren’t.. I wasn’t there when they bought it, but I sold pretty well, and I sold on my own for most of my career. I did portrait commissions, whatever, whatever, and you know, you, you, you got to go with your flow, and you end up building an audience over time, but you do once you start building an audience, get them to sign up for your email newsletter, because they will, especially if they bought something from you, then they’re invested, right, so they will sign up, and they will buy again from you, and you can, you know, use that, and you can see who opens it, and you know, stuff like that. I lose, I lose subscribers every time I put an email newsletter out. That’s normal. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:57:35

but yeah. Well, thank you so much, Lori. This was an eye-opening conversation, very encouraging, also, which I really love. I feel like so many, so many times it’s easy to be so bleak about selling as an artist, and I see it’s not. I see

Lori Woodward: 1:57:53

a lot of good things happening, and I, I’m, will be doing research with artists, and explaining to you that they’re doing very well, the people who aren’t doing very well, probably it’s their art is not really ready yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:58:12

Yeah, and that’s one of the hard truths, I guess. It is, it is. Yeah, just develop your work, have a day job if it’s really, really necessary, or have a way to, like, not worry about your economy while you develop that work. Yeah, you

Lori Woodward: 1:58:27

can teach long before you’re.. I taught long before my work was ever gallery ready.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:58:37

Well, there you go. Oh man. Well, thank you so much again, Lori, for being with us. Thank

Lori Woodward: 1:58:43

you for having me.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:58:45

Of course, I’m so happy. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

Join our next FASO Show Live!
https://register.faso.com/live-guest

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Ned Mueller, an American artist and longtime illustrator-turned-fine-painter, known for his strong drawing, expressive plein air and figurative work, and decades of teaching and mentoring artists around the world. He shares his lifelong journey in art, from drawing as a child and training as an illustrator at Art Center School of Design to eventually transitioning into a fine artist with a distinct voice of his own. He talks candidly about facing serious health challenges, chronic pain, and burnout risks, and how having something meaningful to get up for—his painting practice and the support of his wife Karen—has kept him going. Drawing on decades of experience, Ned emphasizes the “four P’s”: patience, perseverance, practice, and passion, urging artists to find subjects they truly love so their excitement shows in the work. He underscores the importance of strong fundamentals—especially drawing and values—explaining that you must first learn to paint what you know, then what you see, and ultimately what you feel. Ned also advises artists to simplify by thinking in big shapes, values, and edges, to do lots of small studies (in plein air and the studio), and to keep sharpening their skills through critique groups, workshops, and consistent practice. Throughout the conversation, he offers grounded yet hopeful insight into building a sustainable art life: do the work, keep learning, accept the hard realities of the art market, and let your love for painting carry you through the long haul. Finally, Ned tells us about his online classes!

Ned’s FASO site:
www.nedmueller.com/

Sign up for Ned’s workshops!
www.nedmueller.com/workshops

Sign up for Ned’s Newsletter!
www.nedmueller.com/email-newsletter

Ned’s Social Media:
www.instagram.com/nedmueller06/

www.facebook.com/NedMuellerFineArt/

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Transcript:

Ned Mueller: 0:00

Sort of the four Ps: patience, perseverance, practice, and do something you love. No, find something you love, because, and you can get excited about, because if you’re not excited about your pain, it’s going to show.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:19

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Ned Mueller, an American artist and longtime illustrator turned fine painter, known for his strong drawing, expressive planar and figurative work, and decades of teaching and mentoring artists around the world. He shares his lifelong journey in art, from drawing as a child and training as an illustrator at Art Center School of Design, to eventually transitioning into a fine artist with a distinct voice of his own, he talks candidly about facing serious health challenges, chronic pain, and burnout risks, and how having something meaningful to get up for, his painting practice, and the support of his wife, Karen, has kept him going. Drawing on decades of experience, Ned

emphasizes the four Ps: 1:19

patience, perseverance, practice, and passion, urging artists to find subjects that they truly love, so their excitement shows in the work. He underscores the importance of strong fundamentals, especially drawing and values, explaining that you must first learn to paint what you know, then what you see, and ultimately what you feel. Ned also advises artists to simplify by thinking in big shapes, values, and edges, to do lots of small studies in plein air and its studio, and to keep sharpening their skills through critique groups, workshops, and consistent practice. Throughout the conversation, he offers grounded yet hopeful insight into building a sustainable art life. Do the work, keep learning, accept the hard realities of the art market, and let your love for painting carry you through the long haul. Finally, Ned tells us about his online classes. Welcome, Ned, to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

Ned Mueller: 2:11

Pretty good, thanks very much, Laura. It’s great to be here. It’s a sunny good day. Summer’s here, and yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:21

yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, I’m excited to have you, because your work is so stunning. Every image that I see is so beautifully composed. I love your multi-figure compositions, and just capturing life the way that you capture it is just.. it’s, it’s so pleasing to the eyes, so I’m really grateful and excited to have you on.

Ned Mueller: 2:45

Well, thanks for those great words, I appreciate them. Yeah, yeah, I’m looking back, I don’t know how I did it. Look back in the 85 85 I’m looking back more than I’m looking forward. So, I, I see what I did, and I look at some of my.. I couldn’t.. I can’t do what I did 50 years ago.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:14

I just

Ned Mueller: 3:15

don’t have the energy, or you know, whatever. So, I do what I can do.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:23

Yeah, yeah, that’s how it is. I feel like that’s one of those natural things about, you know, getting older and also having a career that is so exciting. I mean, being an artist, it’s never like a never-ending array of problem solving in all the senses, and of course, we change, we evolve, our work evolves, and that’s just the natural part about being a human being. But actually, I did want to ask you, if you don’t mind telling us, you know, me and our listeners, a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Ned Mueller: 3:59

Well, I call myself an artist, probably, you know, but I, I had such a nice career as an illustrator, and my training was all in that direction, so I mean, I’ve, I’ve had to make changes becoming a fine artist, but yeah, I started young. I was drawing when I was four years old, and gosh, in school they gave me assignments to do Thanksgiving decorations, Christmas. I got encouragement from my teachers, my parents, and my friends, you know, I didn’t hear some of the, get some of the horror stories you hear what some kids have gone through, and you know, so really lucky that way, and I. And my big break was I got admitted to one of the best art schools in the country Art Center School of Design, and that was great, and I got an illustration, and now I’m older and don’t have the energy, and I’ve got this rare autoimmune disease that I, this pancreatitis that I have to get operated on every month or so, and then I’ve got chronic pain from nerve damage, so it’s limited me, which is really made me frustrated, and really probably the hardest thing to adjust to, you know, from just being healthy for so long, you know, and gosh, but I, but right, like right now I’m feeling pretty good, and I get work done. We go to drawing sessions twice a week, and then I’m getting stuff done in the studio, and so right now, you know, doing okay.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:15

Yeah, it’s good that you, you do what you can when you can, and that’s what really matters, because, of course, painting can be really motivating as well. It gives you something to enjoy, and wake up in the morning and say, I want to continue this piece, and I feel like I have the energy to do it, and I think that’s that’s really great. I think it makes a huge difference.

Ned Mueller: 6:36

Yeah, we have something I think I told it before, we went to a pain clinic at the VA, and the instructor was pretty rough. You guys are in here, you have chronic pain, and chronic pain means chronic pain, you’re going to have it the rest of your lives. And boy, everybody kind of shuddered, you know, because you always have hope. Oh, it’s going to go, but no, often it doesn’t. And, and, and the whole thing was that I have something to get up for in the morning, and also I had my artwork, and half of them didn’t, and half of them were on opioids, and that wasn’t - they just had nothing to get up for, I guess. Even if you have to get up for a peanut butter sandwich, it’s something, but the other thing I’ve got, my dear wife Karen, that she’s a heck of an artist, and she, she really looks after me. Yeah, she.. I wouldn’t be here if one for her.

Laura Arango Baier: 7:51

Yeah, it’s good to have a support system.

Ned Mueller: 7:54

Oh, it really is. Artists need artists too. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:59

yes. Yeah, community artists, just someone who can understand as well. Yeah, yeah. And I actually did want to ask you as well, can you tell us a little bit more about your path as an artist, you know, how it began and where it continued?

Ned Mueller: 8:19

Yeah, like I was saying, and I was drawing, I drew figures and landscapes, mostly drawing, and then when I got in high school, took art, and luckily had a pretty good teacher, and he saw I had had a little bit of talent, so he kind of mentored me along, and that was helpful, so I was doing more painting, and then I went to, I was in Bozeman, Montana, in the state, one of the state colleges there, Montana State, so all my friends were going to school there, and my parents moved to California, so I wanted to stay, but their art department, everything was getting into modern art, and I was really one naive person, and just didn’t understand it or the purpose of it, so I love to draw, so I just took architecture for three quarters, but wasn’t totally happy there, and in the middle of the winter quarter, a bunch of my friends were fed up with winter and everything, and they decided they’re going to drop out of school and go to San Francisco, live on the beach. So I had, what the heck, that sounds like a good idea. Didn’t know what direction I was going. But I, I stayed and finished the quarter, at least my dad would have killed me if I dropped out, and, and so that’s how I got in California, and it lasted about eight months living on the beach, our parents were getting pretty disgusted of us, so they all went back to Montana, and my parents were living just north of San Francisco, and basically my dad said, “Well, what, what do you think you want to do? He said, “I don’t know, I’ve always wanted to be an illustrator or an artist, but I had no confidence, I don’t think I could ever do it, and he said, Well, okay, we get you in an art school, we’re going to get you in the very best one, because that’s what you’re going to compete against when you get out. So that was really good advice. And anyways, we interviewed some other schools and letters, but anyways we drove down to Los Angeles and interviewed Art Center School, and I just had a crummy little cardboard portfolio, some drawings, and a couple of paintings, and they saw something, and they gave, they accepted me, and gave me a scholarship, so I was just overwhelmed. I thought, geez, you know, I’m in this art school with people from all over the world, and yeah, and it was, it was really something, and every teacher was a working professional, so they knew what you needed to know, and it was tough. I mean, they gave you a lot of assignments, nobody was looking to see if you already had four assignments by another teacher or other teacher. Anyways, that it was even tougher to get out of it, had really high standards, and they asked my one of my best friends to leave after six semesters, but they kind of did him a favor, because he wanted to coach football, so that turned out well for him. And I remember the sixth semester I didn’t hand in one assignment, they made with your scholarship, had to go straight through, no breaks, and I just had no gas in the tank. It was just.. I never had that experience. I just hit this wall anyways. They called me into the office, and well, this is it. Gonna get kicked out, and apparently this was not unusual, even happened to older students, and they said you just settle down, get back this next semester, and you know, get some work done. So I did graduated, and I forgot the question. My wandering off of it,

Laura Arango Baier: 13:18

no, no, you’re, we’re discussing, you know, your entire trajectory of becoming an artist,

Ned Mueller: 13:25

yeah. And anyway, so after that, that was 1963 and it was just before Vietnam, and so they’re having the draft and all that stuff, and you know, if you’re in college, you were safe, but once you’re out, you were put on a list, so most of us are trying to get in the reserves, and including myself, but two of my best friends went in the Marine Corps reserves, anyways, everything was filled up and the only thing left was the Marine Corps Reserve. So I went across the street and signed up, and went to boot camp a couple months later, and I, after a month and a half, two months, I got pneumonia really bad, and ended up in the hospital. Couple guys died next to me. I didn’t know it was that serious. Anyways, all of a sudden I couldn’t sleep, and that went on and on, and you know, I don’t know, I was really worried about it. Talk to a chaplain, he said, “Just go back to training and you’ll be okay, and I did, and it did got worse and worse. Anyways, I ended up with a. Breakdown got out, got out the medical honorable discharge, and it’s a long story. What happened there was the issues even before I went in, which I wasn’t aware of, repressed a lot of anger and shame. I won’t go into all that, but anyways, it didn’t help, and ended up just literally like a vegetable, and I admitted myself to the hospital and got some good treatment, got out, got back on my feet, when you know, started out working as a laborer, as a, as a carpenter, started doing work, you know, weekends and nights of my portfolio, and going to drawing sessions, and you know, getting some confidence back, and going to San Francisco for interviews, and so slowly getting freelance work, and this, that, and you know, doing getting better assignments, and gosh, I did everything I was, I did architectural illustrations, I did storyboards, I was a courtroom artist, you know, you do anything that comes along to make money, and the whole key there was not that you had to be the very best, which was kind of my goal, for better or for worse, but that you were reliable, that you’d get the job done, because sometimes there were millions of dollars at stake, and you know some of those, the advertising, so, so I, you know, I was good at getting it done, and yeah, and I did that for 25 years, yeah, and got some great assignments, and gosh, I did at one point, I did murals for the Olive Garden restaurant, just traveling all over the country doing, I got so I could do a six by 12 foot mural in one day, I mean, they weren’t great works of art, but they weren’t bad either. They’re pretty good, and yeah, and so I, and I was doing the thing, because I could draw well, and I want to say here, for drawing well, you don’t necessarily have to draw the figure, I have landscape friends, some of the best in the country, and we talk on the fall star now that’s oh, Ned, you know, you know, you do figures and portraits and all this stuff, and I just do landscapes, I said, yeah, but you don’t want to do figures you love and do great landscapes, so cut that out. And the point is, if like, if you draw, if you were drawing landscapes or even couches or whatever you were doing, after a few years your eye gets so good you could do a good figure, because all this business is is developing our eye, our judgment, and whether you’re drawing it, I mean, if you’re going to do figures, you know it’s good to go to drawing sessions and you know get good at that, but yeah, you’re just developing your eye. The thing of doing figures, because it’s so difficult, and if you don’t love it, you know, you’re just not going to probably survive it, really, because it is a lot of hard work and a long time, and, but if you get good at that, you can. I was able to draw horses and other animals and everything, because I could do the figure, because it was so hard. And, yeah, so it’s not just you have to draw the figure, you know, you draw anything, you’re going to get good.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:46

It’s very true, and that’s definitely something that you gain with illustration, since illustration is very much, you got to figure out how to do all the things, since most of the time you don’t know what jobs you’re going to get, and it’s good to. Had a job, or you can do all of the things that they’re asking for, you know,

Ned Mueller: 20:06

yeah, but then I, you know, illustration started turning to digital, and photography was kind of taking over magazines and stuff, so, so I was wondering what’s going to happen, but anyways, I was coming home from a camping or painting trip in Montana, and there’s a western show in Ellensburg, Washington. I just pulled off this curiosity and went in there, met some of the artists, and geez, they were, you know, doing paintings of stuff that I enjoyed doing, and I thought, geez, what the heck’s going on here? And talked to the other artists, showed him my work, and they said, gosh, you know, because I had gotten pretty good as an illustrator, and they says, “Wow, yeah, you should, if you’re interested, get involved with this, you know. So I kind of hit some of the shows running, because it’s just that I getting into fine arts, like one of the first big shows was this Northwest Rendezvous in Montana, and I had to submit three times because my work was just a little too commercial, you know. It kind of, as an illustrator, you have to develop certain techniques and stuff you can rely on, because you can’t get an assignment and then do a bad painting, and so you had to have some skill levels, and you know some discipline and consistency, so I had that, but in the fine arts it was not so much that you know, looking for something you know that really sets you aside and makes you look different, more more creative, so and I started hanging out with more artists, so to speak, and, and, and just sing, and some of the beautiful work. Gosh, I was started doing plein air, and, and God accepted in the plein air painters of America, and boy, some of those people were just doing wonderful things, and I said, yeah, you know, here I’m sitting here, you know, very nice work, but not really what I’d like to do, so being exposed to that, you know, I think, and if you can, and most artists are pretty open and helpful and friendly, be because it’s like, you know, if you just kind of stay off by yourself, you know, you may not be challenged, but if you’re with a group and you’re painting with people that are better than you in some regards, or whatever, or whole lot of things that kind of makes you try to lift your game, you know. It’s like tennis, if you or anything, if you play with somebody you can beat every time, you’re not going to get much better. So that was good to me, and I just got out there, and I see other artists around here in the area that just for some reason they didn’t want to go, but particularly this area, when I got here, some of the other established artists, and really says, Ned, you got to get your stuff out of state, because if you just hang around here, you know you’re going to be selling your paintings for three or $400 So I did that and saw what I needed to do to get better and to advance there wasn’t no internet. Then you pretty much advanced by how good you got. The better you got, the better galleries you got in, the better shows. So it’s changed now. Yeah, it’s still a lot of that, but gee whiz, yeah, yeah, I don’t know how people keep up with it. It’s really, it’s difficult, you know? I do a little bit. I told other artists or other people, boy, I just.. and they told me, “Wow. Tonight, well, you’re doing a lot more than most people, and I guess I guess I was, and still am a little bit, but this point I’m just kind of painting what I want to paint, you know, and you know, don’t care so much whether it sells or

Laura Arango Baier: 25:22

not,

Ned Mueller: 25:23

so it’s kind of a nice position to be in, yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:28

yeah, and it’s, I think it’s so serendipitous that you ran into the, the Western painters when you were, you know, just hanging out, and then suddenly you went from illustration into fine art, do you find that there were some, because you did mention that your work was a little too commercial, but were there other aspects of illustration, technically speaking, that you felt really set you apart from other fine artists who hadn’t had an illustration background?

Ned Mueller: 25:59

I had that training, where drawing, you know, I, and I had the love of drawing, and I could draw well, and well, I might mention, and I read once in the paper one of the one of the fine art schools here was getting a new director. I interviewed him in the paper, and he says, “You know, we’re not going to teach skills here, and he said, “But they get in the way of creativity, and I thought that’s crazy in a way, he’s right, anyways. In my example, I, I could draw so well, it kind of became a crutch. I thought it enabled me to do, and I was, because, namely, I could do watercolors, I did watercolors, gouache, acrylic, pastels, and oils, because I had this idea to be this great artist, you should be able to do everything and anything, and I finally woke up one day and realized nobody else is trying to do this. It’s insane, you know, the most, most people are maybe doing two or three mediums, you Yeah, but one of my friends, the name was Bill Reese, and he was kind of the dean of artists in the Northwest, but he could do everything, he could sculpt on top of it, and watercolor and oils and pastels and watercolor, but he, he was a rare one, so anyways, I cut it down, I quit doing acrylics and and watercolor and kind of kept it to oils and pastels, and so I was mostly doing, doing that, and I was doing a lot of, I love to do portraits, you know, and I’m pretty good at it, because I love it, you know, and kind of like people like to do figures and portraits anyway, so I, but I didn’t want to ever do it for a living, because that’s kind of what you get caught up doing too much of, so I just do it mostly now to keep my skills sharp, and because I enjoy it, you know, I

Laura Arango Baier: 28:45

like that you just mentioned sharp skills. Sorry, yeah, it is one of those things that, um, we do have to keep honing the blade, so to speak, no matter how long it’s been.

Ned Mueller: 28:58

Yeah, it is, um yeah, and, and even if I get away from doing it for, like, with my health reasons, I wasn’t able to do things much for a month or so, not go back and do it, and, Jesus, you know, start a three hour, the first, first, we’ll one or two, I just couldn’t get with it, but it took, and it just took two or three times. You start getting back to it. It’s, it’s always there, doesn’t leave you, but and you don’t lose it. I don’t think you lose it. It just takes a little while, a little rusty, and you just get back on the horse, so to speak.

Laura Arango Baier: 29:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s one of those things where I think you mentioned last time, it’s like riding a bike a little bit, yeah, where no. Maybe, maybe at first it feels kind of awkward, and then you know you’re back in on it in no time, but yeah, and I also did want to ask too, because you mentioned early on when you were, you know, getting jobs or like getting back into illustration after your time being ill, what did you find that maybe you had a little bit of burnout from school as well, and then have you had maybe some sort of like burnout as well throughout your career? And then if you did, how did you overcome, you know, that feeling of burnout or artist block?

Ned Mueller: 30:41

Oh boy, that’s a tough one, because I did a lot of different things, like, you know, I think if you’re doing the same thing too much, or you probably get burnt, but I, I was doing different subjects, so I think that sort of lessened it, I would get, I don’t want to recall ever getting totally burned out. I just did a portrait workshop this last weekend, and then we went to our drawing session Monday, and I just. I was just flat, you know, and I just wasn’t excited about anything, you know. So, yeah, so that it happens, but I’ve never experienced that total thing. And two, I traveled quite a bit. I love the travel because I love painting different cultures, and I just had a curiosity for that, and I wanted to, and I wanted to expand beyond, you know, just the United States, and I wanted to see the world, and know, and do other things, so yeah, I was always, always busy with something, I mean, it was never, never a quiet air, like I never took a vacation, I think it was for almost 20 years, that’s really dumb, but I think I said I was driven, you know, I didn’t want to fall behind,

Laura Arango Baier: 32:27

yeah. But why do you, why do you say that it was done to not take a vacation,

Ned Mueller: 32:33

not take a vacation?

Laura Arango Baier: 32:35

Yeah, why was it

Ned Mueller: 32:36

done? You really need a break, and you know you need to get a break away from doing it, but even when we did go on a trip or something, I always had my camera, I was always looking to find a scene that I could paint later, so even then I wouldn’t get away from it. Just to, yeah, I think I think that’s that’s healthy. I don’t, I think someone like me, that’s you know, doing it every day, and you know that’s not healthy. I wasn’t healthy.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:17

That’s good to know. Um, I think I agree. I think it’s important to rest as much as it is, you know, to do a lot, but I totally understand. I think a lot of people, like you, especially who are extremely driven, just find it hard to not keep going, you know. It’s tough. Yeah.

Ned Mueller: 33:39

Now I have to, because of my health issue. I have to, so, and I just ask Karen. I still get this urge to, you know, go off someplace and do this and do that, and I’m not even capable of it. can. If she wasn’t here, I’m sure I’d be dead.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:10

That’s very dark. Well, I’m glad that she’s there

Ned Mueller: 34:20

trying to climb this cliff to get a better view of the landscape or something, yeah, but that’s I survived, I got lucky, yeah, fell off a couple of not tall cliffs, but short cliffs, and that didn’t help.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:48

Goodness,

Ned Mueller: 34:50

I mean, they were just things. Yeah, I did a lot of.. I love. Backpacking and hiking in the mountains, so yeah, and coming down on a rough trail, you know, it’s so easy to get in a hurry and stumble, and you know, you hit your head on a rock, it can kill you, so I did that a couple times, and managed to fall in a bush.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:27

At least it was a bush and not a rock. Yeah, yeah. And who says that artists don’t have risky jobs, especially if you do go hiking to find the perfect view and the perfect spot to paint, besides, you know, using toxic pigments and toxic cleaning materials. Yeah, I think we have a very strange kind of risky job.

Ned Mueller: 35:55

Yeah, yeah, it is. Karen just finally got me off of turpentine, what is it? Can’t think the name of it, but it’s, it’s, it’s better, it’s healthier.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:11

Yeah, there’s a, there’s a few brands that are good, there’s mineral spirits, or odorless mineral spirits, there’s Gamsol, that’s what

Ned Mueller: 36:17

I was using, but she, she thought I needed to get rid of that, because there’s no such thing as odorless, apparently.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:24

No, there isn’t. It’s good to have an air purifier, or just like not be anywhere near it for many hours, have good air circulation. Yeah, it can be, could be really risky.

Ned Mueller: 36:39

Then, when I was doing pastels on top of it, and again, all that powder going all over.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:44

Yep, you need to have some sort of suction thing, like a vacuum underneath, so you’re not breathing that in, because that it’s also gonna get really dangerous.

Ned Mueller: 36:56

Learn a mask, and, yep,

Laura Arango Baier: 37:00

yeah, wear one of those like really intense masks with, like, the, you know, like for people who do woodwork, but yeah, besides that, I wanted to ask you also, when you were transitioning into becoming a fine artist from illustration, did you start making paintings to work with galleries, while you were still taking on illustration jobs, or did you just cut, you know, very dry between the two?

Ned Mueller: 37:29

Oh, I was doing both. Yeah, doing both. Yeah, I guess it slowed my transition up, you know, and I, and I, and I hear a lot, a lot of people say, well, illustrators make really good fine artists, because they, they have good skills drawing, and I think better one can draw, the better one can design, you know, I think that sharpens your design skills. I, I think all that’s drawing even probably makes you more sensitive to color. You know, I’ve heard that before. I don’t know if that’s true or not, probably for some people.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:21

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast, and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 18th of June with our special guest, Timothy Tyler. You can find the signup link in the show notes. Yeah, I mean, when I was in school, we used to say you can’t out render a bad drawing, you just can’t. So, I agree, I think drawing is the fundamental thing to learn, and everything just comes from there. And I agree, I think a lot of the illustrators that I’ve seen, who have become fine artists, they’re really excellent composers, just from the get-go. I feel like there’s something with the extreme amount of work that illustrators have to produce that the more you do it, the more you pick up the intuition of how to design a really good image, whether it’s just drawing or value, and then, of course, adding color on top, because I know a lot of illustrators take some sort of, you know, color class where they have to learn, okay, well, these are the colors that represent this, and if you want more mystery, you add more green, or if you want more of this, then you know the image would have. Include that, although that’s, you know, I haven’t personally been in an illustration program, so I’m not totally sure, but I feel like every illustrator I’ve seen has this magical ability to just get it, and I’m like, did I go the wrong way? Should I have been an illustrator

Ned Mueller: 40:17

there for years? You know, Norman Rockwell, one of the greatest illustrators of all time, they made fun of him because, but jeez, his illustrations, as far as I’m concerned, they were fine art. I mean, he designed those things, he would do value studies and color studies, and, and full-size drawings of things before he did the finish, and I’ve got some back there, my wall, that geez, they are just, they’re just beautiful paintings, and tell a story, and credibly designed. Yeah, that’s one thing that getting the fine arts. Maybe it’s the next thing, but a drawing, but the process of getting an image, we, you know, if you get an assignment, you had to make sure you’re on the same page as the art director, so we did value studies, we did color studies, just to make sure you know we were doing what they want, and so I got in the habit of doing those, and I still do those in my fine art work. I find out a lot of my fine art, they don’t do those things, they didn’t expose to that, but I just remember, you know, the important value is the old masters worked in black and white for four years before they went in color, and when I was in art school it was two years, and our first color assignment was three white eggs on a light blue plate, but boy, we learned about value, because when people get into color, the first thing they miss is the value, amongst other things, but it’s really makes a difference. Yeah, so I use it in my paintings.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:42

Yeah, yeah, I feel like hierarchically, you know, to have a really good composition, a lot of people, and it’s natural because we’re so attracted to color, a lot of people, you know, they think, oh well, color, but in reality it’s so, it’s so, so, so much more about value and drawing and just placement of those values in the right places to keep the eye on the canvas, so that you know the color just add it’s like the cherry on top of everything, and to your point also about how illustration maintained that you know rigorous sort of like value study to you know, just doing a lot of studies, a lot of tests before the final piece. It’s very funny, because I find that that’s actually something that the old masters also did, but at some point, I think, you know, at the turn of the century, when unfortunately fine arts was seen as a dying thing, and illustration was able to maintain what I like to call the past the torch, so to speak. I feel like illustration kept it, but a lot of the more modern art schools seem to just avoid it completely, especially when modernism really took over, because it became more like, oh, well, you can have whatever process you want, because we don’t want to limit you, but I feel like that really alienated a lot of people who wanted to pursue fine art and really needed that type of support that illustrators got in their process and the type of process that they maintained, so I find it really interesting that now we’re like hopefully going full circle, where a lot more fine artists today are doing color studies and value studies and testing things, which is important. Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 44:34

yeah, so I think more people are doing it and coming up with our paintings. The exception is like a plein air thing, which I did a lot of that, and I was doing that, I was just starting off and just starting out and painting cold turkey and. I, you know, had probably had more failures than successes, but then I started going back, at least getting a something down, a note or something, and you know, not getting so many clunkers, but there’s a fine line where there’s a lot to be said just for being spontaneous, but you find a lot of the really good solid painters are doing studio work, they’re they have the time to do the studies and everything, and then they’ll have this big beautiful great painting that they’ve thought out well, and it’s just gorgeous. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:49

yeah, I think it’s, it’s a bit of a balance too, because, like, yeah, of course, approaching a painting, it’s important to keep in mind the composition, but then at the same time I don’t know if it’s happened to you, where you look at a painting that’s almost too perfect, it becomes a little bit boring. So it is also nice to keep some of that spontaneity and some of those little accidents that can happen sometimes, where you brush kind of strange, and it’s not really what’s happening in reality, but it works, and at that point you know you start having a bit more of a dialog with, okay, do I want this to be perfect, quote unquote, which isn’t really a thing, or do I want this to be something more alive, and I think that’s, you know, later on, after someone paints more, it’s the type of conversation they have with their work,

Ned Mueller: 46:43

yeah, yeah, they find it that in all my teaching over the years of talking to other artists was kind of three stages, people start out painting what they know, you know, they know the sky is blue and grass is green and in the shadows or cool to go in the shade to get cool, so they paint all that, and and then you get them to paint what they see, but sometimes the sky is yellow or orange, the grass is brown, and most shadows are warm, so no, except for early morning, and sun goes down, and so that makes makes a difference, and they start painting what they see, they start learning more about color and harmony and all that, and then the third stage is the best stage, you paint what you feel more, it gets a more little more emotion in it, but most people want to do the third stage before they’ve gone through the other two, so yeah, I know, if I ever told people I was gonna, they’re gonna do value studies for a week, five days, nobody would sign up, no, you know, because they all want to get into color and everything, so you kind of have to once you explain it to him, show him it makes sense. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:26

yeah, yeah. And that’s very interesting, because I did my first ever attempt at Plan Air yesterday, and I was first of all shocked at how overwhelming it is. It’s windy, there’s geese walking next to you, thinking you have food. It’s, and of course, I had to stop because it started raining, but I decided, okay, I’m not going to overwhelm myself. I’m just going to paint on a white canvas with Van Dyke brown and with some mineral spirits, just so I’m only focusing on value, just trying to lay things out, and I wouldn’t say it was a bad attempt. I’m actually kind of happy with it, but I think, yeah, just focusing on value alone was a challenge, trying to decide, okay, what do I want to bring forward? What do I want to push back? What do I want the center of attention to be? Where do I want to protect my lightest value? Just with that, it’s, it’s a lot to handle with color. I think I would have been so stressed out, I would have panicked

Ned Mueller: 49:37

the first time I went out with friends. Jeez, I have, I was trying to paint some trees, and I tried to paint the branches and all the leaves, and after a couple hours it was just a mess, and I looked at their work, and the hour and a half, they had some beautiful paintings. You learn how to paint, you know, 500 leaves with one brush stroke,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:09

so

Ned Mueller: 50:10

yeah, it’s good to get out there, because it forces you to simplify, you know, forces you to get stuff down, so you can see what’s right and what’s wrong, you know, get the darn thing covered,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:27

yeah,

Ned Mueller: 50:28

yeah, and once I found in my own work, in my students’ work, once they could think more shapes instead of details, they’ve really started thinking more like an artist, you know, getting the big relationships down, and it makes a big difference. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:52

yeah, the big masses, and the just having the right location for things before anything else. Yeah, it’s extreme, like, wow, extremely important. I think the other part that I was panicking a little bit about was the changing sunlight, which, of course, inevitable, we are rotating quite fast. So I also ignored that, because if I didn’t ignore it, I think I would also lose my mind just because you know I was just focusing, you know, I’m just going to get the drawing because there’s this beautiful building, I’m just going to get the building, and some of the really nice trees that I see close by, I don’t want to overwhelm myself with, oh, and now the sun is over here, so let me start putting that, like, no, stop,

Ned Mueller: 51:45

just go out with a 12 by 16 panel and divide it up into four six by eights, and just as does it, you can then with, you know, and on paint it with a number six or eight brush, no ones or twos, and just forces you to see the big color relationships, little, and just concentrate on getting big color relationship, and you can, you, you’ll find out you can do one of them in half an hour. After a while, yeah. And don’t try to do anything big outside, maybe after you’ve done it five or six years.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:40

Yeah, that’s good. I think my,

Ned Mueller: 52:44

you’re going to learn more by doing where you can do 10 eight by 10s or six by eights, and 10 of them, maybe a day or two, instead of doing a large one that takes you all day, you know, you can get 10 paintings done in one day, as opposed to doing one in one or two days. I mean, there’s a lot to be said, you got to blow it up, and everything changes, but you know, and I’ve talked a lot, a lot of other artists said, you know, that’s really, really made a difference for them.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:26

Yeah, yeah. Actually, the canvas that I used, I made sure that I wouldn’t, because I only had like a piece of loose canvas with it, was already pre-gessed. Well, it’s oil primed, and I just taped it down. I was like, I’m not even going to use this entire piece of canvas, I’m just going to use maybe half of it, and that made it a lot easier, but because I got rained on and it was a pretty bad storm, I could only get like 45 minutes to an hour in, so I had to abandon it, but, but, yeah, I’ll try the four little ones, just, you know, kind of like when I did color studies for portraits, where it’s you’re not worried about getting the features perfect, you’re not worrying about the drawing too much, just major placements, major values, and then go from there. Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 54:14

same thing.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:15

Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 54:16

doing a portrait, if you get the, if you get the shape, the shadow shape, right? You get a likeness, you get the right color and right shadow side of a tree, and the light side, it’s going to be a pine tree or a maple that has that look, and yeah, just makes all the difference in the world, but trouble is, we all, you know, and that’s there’s why it’s being a self-taught artist is really tough, because you know you can get with somebody, can really save you a lot of time, you know, can.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:01

Yeah, yeah, and time is something we don’t get back money, we hopefully do, but time is not, time is non-refundable. So I agree, it’s good to get someone that can help who is knowledgeable, but then actually speaking of money, for your career, what were some of the ways that you were able to maintain some of your income as an artist? Was it primarily galleries? Was it commission work? Teaching?

Ned Mueller: 55:31

Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did commission work. I started teaching early. They had me teaching even when I was at Art Center. They started a Saturday group for some of the better high school students there, and they asked me if I’d do it, and I never taught before to know what to do, but I’ve found I enjoyed it, and you know, I, I knew more than they did, so that’s kind of good, and and then they even had me substituting for some of the instructors or teaching life drawing. Boy, I was in a little over my head there, almost got in a fight with a couple of guys, goodness.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:24

Why?

Ned Mueller: 56:25

Oh, I just.. I forget. Probably more my fault, something I didn’t handle, but some of these guys I remember hearing stories of, you know, veterans coming back after the Korean War, getting the GI Bill and going to college, and some of these professors were going on. Well, these were in art classes that were going on too much about theory, and they, they literally grabbed their cow, says, listen, I, you know, I just came through hell, and I want to learn how, and I need to get a job, so teach me how to do something constructive. Just don’t talk,

Laura Arango Baier: 57:18

that’s understandable.

Ned Mueller: 57:20

Yeah. Mm. yeah, so that’s where the, yeah, lucky to have instructors that were working professionals. They, they knew what the heck you needed, needed to know if you’d listen to them.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:42

That’s the key. key, you can lead a horse to water,

Ned Mueller: 57:46

yeah, yeah. And

Laura Arango Baier: 57:48

then, do you find that working with the, you know, like any of the organizations, associations, like Oil Painters of America, or any of that, did that also help you with, you know, making more sales, or also just connecting with other artists.

Ned Mueller: 58:06

Yeah, mainly my sales got better, and I could get more money just because I was getting better. Yeah, there, you know, there, like I said, you didn’t have the internet and all these other things, to you know, Instagram, and all that stuff, to promote yourself, so then it was just, you just, you just got better, and you got in better shows, and better galleries, and sold more paintings and made more money. Yeah, I’m probably the wrong person to ask how to make a good living artist. I’ve never even taken a business course,

Laura Arango Baier: 59:02

I but I think it’s

Ned Mueller: 59:04

pretty typical of most artists, you know. We avoid those things like a plague, but the galleries, you know, did that, and there were better collectors there? They don’t, they don’t teach it in schools anymore, but there’s three states that mandatory they have teach art classes or music, or the three states, rest, they don’t have to, and so the collectors, when I was getting involved, they got it in school, they, they loved it, they studied it. Most of those collectors are dead or dying, so I think there’s less educated collectors, and I think. Right, that’s a big problem, that’s kind of catching up with us, and I live in a high-tech area in Seattle. Here, I’ve seen Microsoft’s collection, it’s pathetic, it’s all hard edge and boring, and you know, no feeling, so yeah, it’s.. I don’t know, it’s.. it’s got to be tough. I’m glad I’m not starting out now. I just glad I was able to start when I did, and we had.. we had good collectors. There were more there. I, yeah. but

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:43

I do think what you said is still, it still holds true, which is the better you are, you know, with your work, the better artists technically skilled, but also in terms of developing your voice as an artist, you know, what makes your painting stand out from the others, it could still be fine art, of course. I think that still holds very true. That really good work when it is marketed, because now, of course, we have social media, and people can actually work without galleries. When you can take care of that marketing side, I still.. I could be naive, though. I don’t know. I still believe that really good work speaks for itself, and if you have a way to market it, show it to people, it’s.. it’s going to make a difference, instead of, you know, marketing something that’s maybe less good or a little bit more well, something that needs more time to develop, I think it’s good work speaks for itself. Again, it could be nice, but I

Ned Mueller: 1:01:50

agree, but then two, if you don’t have, if you don’t have collectors or buyers of all the difference between good art, well, I can tell one story, it might explain a lot. And I did some articles, some of the art magazines, and then they asked me to do a book, but I just, you know, I knew it took a lot of time to do it. I just didn’t want to do it, and and I asked the editor, I says, “Is it true that the bad art books sell better than the good ones? And she said, “Yeah, unfortunately, so because people can identify with the bad work, so that’s why you can see god-awful paintings in a gallery, the worst art outselling the good art.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:50

That’s heartbreaking,

Ned Mueller: 1:02:52

but it’s kind of true.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:54

Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 1:02:57

we, we don’t get around to the galleries like we used to, but geez, we go in there and we see some work in there that is just horrible, and they’re getting outrageous prices for it, and the people buying it, they just, they don’t know the difference.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:18

Yeah, you’re not the first person who mentions that, that buyers are less aware or educated about what makes good work, though I do have hope, because despite the internet being, you know, like the biggest rabbit hole ever, I do come across a lot of people who, at least, you know, they have the wherewithal and the critical thinking to come across an image and research about it and learn about the different art history periods and have a more nuanced interest than you know someone who basically, who just took a basic art course because they had to for credit, so I have some hope that the age of information could still enlighten some important people to be patrons of the arts.

Ned Mueller: 1:04:06

Yeah, and I don’t know, I look at, you know, traditional work, and the best markets that I’ve seen where people can flourish is the Western art, it’s very traditional, and I mean it’s when I, when I started Western art, it was there again. It was, it was ridiculous, you know? People were selling three-legged horses, and you know, people got all caught up in this Western thing. It was, it was crazy, and not so much anymore, but and I guess there’s, it’s always been that way, there’s always been a lot of bad art cells, I know out of. And years ago, and he was, he would paint a farmhouse, and then have trees on each side, and he’d vary the trees, and maybe the farm, and he says, you know, Ned, I don’t want to get any better, because I’m selling everything I do, and now the risk of getting better was too, too scary for him. That’s probably a poor analogy, but it’s,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:36

oh no, but it’s, it’s interesting, because it does fall under, you know, if you are doing the same process on repeats without changing the process, and you always get the same results, then your gallery knows what to expect, and galleries like that. But when you’re an artist who is also doing it, you know, in the I want to get better, I want to explore type of sense, or I don’t want to, I get bored just doing the same thing over and over. I think it, I don’t want to say gets punished, but some galleries don’t quite like change because they want a product

Ned Mueller: 1:06:20

in a way to keep the doors open, but yeah, years ago I had interviewed with some guy, they told me I was unmarketable because I do too many different things in different means, I understood it, you know, got collectors in the rat, they gotta sell stuff to keep the doors open. That’s also why some of these galleries keep some of this bad art there, because it sells, you know, and it keeps the doors open. That’s what they told me. The worst artist brought in a million dollars last year, so you know there’s a true story, and it was he was the worst artist in the gallery, but he was their best seller.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:13

Maybe I need to lower the bar.

Ned Mueller: 1:07:16

Well, yeah, I would

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:20

not. I would be, I would be betraying myself if I did that. That’s awful.

Ned Mueller: 1:07:25

No.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:26

Oh man, that is.. I think we need to discuss something a little less bleak, and

Ned Mueller: 1:07:36

I may be a little too cynical.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:39

Oh no, but you have, of course, the experience to see, you know, the perspective long term of how things have shifted, so it’s absolutely natural. But I did want to ask, oh, learn more

Ned Mueller: 1:07:52

stories, it’ll depress everybody.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:57

I mean, I would love to hear them, but, but yeah, I think it might be a little bit of a bummer for, yeah, but I did want to ask you in less bleak terms, do you have any advice for someone who wants to become a full-time artist?

Ned Mueller: 1:08:22

What are the 4p’s patience, perseverance, practice. What’s the other one? Okay, there’s four of them. Perseverance, yeah, we need that, you know, and like we say, learn how to draw. Don’t have to do the, the figure, you know? If you want to do landscapes or still lifes, you know, induce, do something you love. No, find something you love, because, and you can get excited about, because if you’re not excited about your pain, it’s going to show, and so, yeah, and you think those things would be easy, they’re not. Some people don’t know what they want to paint, and so try different things, try to get, if you’re going to go to an art school, or take workshops, or get them, you know, it just makes sense. Find somebody that you can relate to, that’s, you know, that sincerely wants to help you. I mostly teach because I love it, you know. I know it’s not all about money, I love it, and I have to charge something, so I charge reasonably prices anyways. Uh, and if you do teach well, you know it’s a way to make money, but it’s, and I’ll be better if you love to teach. If you want to help people, you want to sincerely see them get better, but yeah. and it’s, you know, if you have to take commissions or you have to do things or things you may not want to do, but they’re going to pay you well. Do it when you’re starting out, you do what you have to do, you Um, let’s see what else I can’t, you know, do studies, you know, do two studies that you’re sometimes just do to learn color, just do color studies, because if you’re trying to color studies, design, and all that, it’s hard to do, so kind of separate them to go outside and just have fun learning about color, maybe go out and start thinking more about composition and design, and you know very few people can do it all at once.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:22

Yeah, I I think that’s very sound advice.

Ned Mueller: 1:11:26

Yeah, probably just about everybody else would give the same.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:31

I mean, there’s a common thread that a lot of people mentioned, but I think even if it is very similar advice, you gotta hear it a million times. I mean, you hear it once, you think, yeah, yeah, I get it. And then you hear it again, you’re like, I think I get it. And then eventually you’re like, I, wow, I need.. I didn’t think about that, even though you’ve already heard it a million times.

Ned Mueller: 1:11:59

And if you think three or four people are saying the same thing, maybe different words. Gosh, there must be something to it, you know. And these people are doing pretty good work, and you know, and you actually don’t have to be a great artist to be a great teacher either.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:20

Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 1:12:21

people say that, but I don’t, I don’t think so. I think there’s other things involved, and no patience, and relating, and

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:35

yeah, listening, being a good listener as well. Yeah, totally,

Ned Mueller: 1:12:41

even if you’re just getting one person you know that you know that knows something and you know will take you out painting or have you over the studio or talk to you or give you some critiques that’s another thing start a critique group. I’ve always been in a critique group for years, and they’re really helpful. You just need to start maybe four or five people, and then you go to each other’s house, and you bring something to eat, and you critique three or four paintings, or whatever you got each time, that that helps you just got to be Gary. Don’t get somebody in there that’s going to dominate the thing and always have their opinion getting out there. So, yeah, so that key groups are useful, and you make good friends, and

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:48

yeah, yeah, yeah, and you can always bounce ideas, and and you make discoveries about your work, because you know you have someone else looking at it and having a different opinion, because it can be really lonely when you’re in your studio, and sometimes you keep hitting a wall with a problem, and you, there’s no other way to get around at them by showing it to someone else to see what they think, and you can show it to your, you know, to someone who maybe doesn’t have much to do with painting, but they might not be able to resolve it as well as someone who can see it with the eyes that with educated eyes, so to speak, you know. Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 1:14:30

and gosh, what’s I gonna say? Yeah, you know, gosh, I forgot, you know, art groups are kind of nice to belong to. They can be supportive. I know some people enjoy the organization, some people don’t. And, and I was president of. A couple sometimes find out your friends were the ones that abused it more than anything. You thought just because they’re friendly didn’t have to get something in on time or do this or that. Yeah, become an officer, you sure find out a lot about human nature.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:25

Oh, yeah, even just, you know, living your life, you find out a lot about human nature. Yeah, but, but I also wanted to ask you, do you have any upcoming shows or workshops or Zoom classes that you would like to tell us about.

Ned Mueller: 1:15:44

Yeah, far shows I’m mostly, you know, some invitational shows around I submit to, because, like, I’m on designated master with oil painters of America and American Impressive Society, so you’re supposed to enter as many as you can. The nice thing that being a master, they don’t screen your work, they take, so yeah, so you, it’s, it’s too tempting to put in something that you should put in, so you got to be careful that I entered juried shows a lot, because there’s some that they don’t have, like, so many jury shows you have to do it in the last three five years or something. So some of these online shows they don’t have a limitation. So I’ve got paintings from 40 years ago, and when they first started doing those, I entered them, they’re all, and I at one time actually there was somebody keeping track of that after about five years, and I was number one in the country of winning these online jury shows, mainly because they didn’t have a deadline, and I was entering shows I did some of my best paintings, I did 3040 years ago. Now some were one of them just clamped down and decided, well, they’re going to stop that because other artists were complaining. Well, I told them, well, wait, yeah, wait till you get older, you know, and you know you may not be able to do as much or do them as great as you did 3040 years ago, and so I mentioned that to him.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:56

Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 1:17:57

anyways, yeah, everybody has their perspective on things, so I entered those, and anyways, I, I still win some, and last year I got the, you can see it on the wall poster of the Modern Impressionist, but I got, I called it Best Artist of the Year, yeah, hardly. you know, already the best, but you know it’s still nice to get, you know, 5000 bucks.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:31

Yeah,

Ned Mueller: 1:18:32

anyways, the other thing is I have a regular class online class on Wednesdays from 10 to one Pacific Daylight Time, and that’s just work on value studies, color studies, and all things related to art, and that goes on year round, except like in the summer, the summer were taken off in July and August, and we’ve been doing it for years and years, and then I do other workshops. Last week, and I just had an online expressive portrait workshop drawing, and I always limited to 12 students. I just don’t believe in having a lot of students, not fair to them and not fair to me. And then I’m doing a two day plein air workshop on jury shows. Right now I’m in the middle during two shows and yeah, and my website has all this stuff listed, so I don’t do as many as I used to, but yeah, and but I, I like a. Entering jury shows or shows, because I’m an artist, I like people to see my work, and I get an award here and there, and so, yeah, and, yeah, and I once in a while I can still do a halfway decent painting when I, when I’m, when I’m feeling pretty good, and yeah, that’s pretty much it. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:38

Well, if someone wants to maybe join one of your Zoom classes or wants to see more of your work, where can they go

Ned Mueller: 1:20:47

w w w.net mueller.com m u e l l e r. Yeah, great, but yeah, the workshops fill up pretty fast because we limit it to 12 people, and that’s nice. I have some really loyal students that have been doing taking my class for like five or six years, you know, it’s amazing, and I get people from Paul, not all of the, but around the world, Mexico, Shanghai, England, you know. So, yeah, so I got a pretty good life.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:36

Yeah, sounds very comforting to be able to, you know, work on paintings that you want to work on, and still have contact with other artists, even if it’s through, you know, workshops, and of course, your wife being an artist also helps. Yeah, yeah, no, I’ll also include all your links in the show notes as well, for, you know, our listeners, if they want to immediately go to your website and sign up, or check out when your next signups are. They can go visit your links. I

Ned Mueller: 1:22:07

got a newsletter. Join my newsletter, do Instagram and Facebook, and other thing I encourage people to do is do Pinterest. Pinterest, I mean, there’s just great stuff there, you know. Whatever your tastes are, or styles, you know, start your own page, and it grows, and you figure out how you know they start sending you things because they find out what you like, and they send you similar stuff, and trouble is, boy, it’s hard to get off of it.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:22:49

Yeah, I am a regular Pinterest user, so I totally understand.

Ned Mueller: 1:22:54

Yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:22:56

yeah,

Ned Mueller: 1:22:57

all the social things can be pretty addictive.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:02

Yep,

Ned Mueller: 1:23:04

yeah. So be careful. I’m not the best example, but yeah, I follow my own advice and do it less.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:17

Yeah, I will also go out and touch some grass, as they say. Yeah, but thank you so much, Ned. This was a very fascinating conversation. Very, there’s a lot to digest in terms of, you know, my hopes and dreams for the future of art, but I will follow your advice. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank.

Join our next FASO Show Live!
https://register.faso.com/live-guest

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For today’s episode we sat down with Jennifer Balkan, a contemporary representational oil painter and art instructor based in Austin, with an academic background in behavioral neuroscience and sociology. She describes how a lifelong love of drawing crystallized into a serious painting practice after a transformative, self-gifted trip to Paris, which led her to take her first painting class in Austin in 2001. Despite completing a PhD and following a more “rational” career path, she felt an irresistible pull toward painting, ultimately choosing to pursue art full time even amid concern and confusion from friends and family. Jennifer explains that her scientific and sociological studies deeply inform her figurative work, especially her focus on the emotional, cerebral life beneath a subject’s expression and her love of optical color mixing and visible mark-making. She discusses how her inspiration has evolved from narrative series into a stronger emphasis on shapes, light, and color relationships, and how experimenting with different media during the pandemic revitalized her practice and fed back into her oil painting. Jennifer also highlights the central role of Atelier Dojo in her life—as both a co-created figurative hub and an atelier program that nurtures students’ individual voices. Jennifer also shares practical, grounded advice for aspiring full-time artists about embracing multiple income streams, loving the process, and committing to sustained, disciplined practice. Finally, she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops!

Jennifer’s FASO site:
jenniferbalkan.com/

Jennifer’s Social Media:
instagram.com/jenniferbalkan/

Atelier Dojo!
atelierdojo.com/

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Transcript:

Jennifer Balkan: 0:00

You gotta love this stuff, you gotta love quote practicing, because we’re always practicing, and so it’s like, if you don’t love the process, then it’s not worth your time, because it’s too done, it’s too darn hard to like sustain yourself financially for you not to love the process, and just love the practice of doing it.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:24

Welcome to the Fast So Podcast, where we believe that Fortune Favors of old rush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Jennifer Balkin, a contemporary representational oil painter and art instructor based in Austin, with an academic background in behavioral neuroscience and sociology. She describes how a lifelong love of drawing crystallized into a serious painting practice after a transformative self-gifted trip to Paris, which led her to take her first painting class in Austin in 2001 Despite completing a PhD and following a more quote unquote rational career path, she felt an irresistible pull toward painting, ultimately choosing to pursue art full time, even amid concern and confusion from friends and family, Jennifer explains that her scientific and sociological studies deeply inform her figurative work, especially her focus on the emotional, cerebral life beneath the subject’s expression, and her love of optical color mixing and visible mark making. She discusses how her inspiration has evolved from narrative series into a stronger emphasis on shapes, light, and color relationships, and how experimenting with different media during the pandemic revitalized her practice and fed back into her oil painting. Jennifer also highlights the central role of Atelier Dojo in her life, as both a co-created figurative hub and an atelier program that nurtures students in the visual voices. Jennifer also shares practical, grounded advice for aspiring full-time artists about embracing multiple income streams, loving the process and committing to sustained, disciplined practice. Finally, she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops. Welcome, Jennifer, to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

Jennifer Balkan: 2:12

I’m good, Laura. Thanks for having me.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:14

Yeah, I’m excited to have you, because you have such beautiful work, and you just have like such a fun personality to be around as well, and I can see it in your work, and I can see it when I talk to you. So I’m excited to discuss more of that, and how your very unique background also led to you becoming a really great painter somehow magically that we are going to hear about. But before we talk about your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Jennifer Balkan: 2:43

Sure, I’m Jennifer, and I am predominantly an oil painter, but I also love to draw. I would, I classify myself as a contemporary representational painter. Always funny to kind of put labels on your visual stuff, but that helps kind of kind of understand it, and yeah, I’m the art instructor, and but yeah, that is who I am, as far as the visual art part of it, there’s more to more to who I am, but yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:25

yes, there’s always more things in life. Yeah, I think that question can sometimes, some people like, oh, tell us who you are, what you do, and I think some people can really get deep, deep into.. I know, I know, like, well, there’s all other things,

Jennifer Balkan: 3:37

but let’s just talk about the art, yeah, exactly, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:41

but of course the art comes from your experience as a human on on this fine earth, so it can go deep. I mean, it’s it’s inextricable, it just depends on how far you want to go, but, but yeah, you did have a very interesting background before you became a painter, so actually I really want to know, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Jennifer Balkan: 4:06

Yeah, so you know, I have drawn all my life, and always, yeah, always had a pencil or a pen in my hand, and I didn’t, you know, I didn’t study art formally as a kid at all, other than, you know, just playing around, and I think it was really.. I took a couple of, you know, exciting, informative classes in college that were a studio art class, as well as a, an art history class, and loved, loved it, loved them, but was kind of just pursuing other things, trying to figure out what my major was, and, and exploring, and, and so it really wasn’t until at. Actually, after I finished graduate school, not an art on a trip that I gifted myself, I was sitting in an internet cafe when those existed in Paris, and signed up for my very first painting class, I guess, painting class as an adult, and, and that in Austin, that that is so signed up when I came home, having been like super inspired by seeing all these master works, and sort of just trying to, trying to imagine how, you know how to, how to learn such things? Yeah, basically came home in 2001 and took a class and just kind of got hooked and went from, went from there. So that was sort of like the, the spark, the beginning of it all. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 6:00

yeah, and I think also I feel like a lot of people that have interviewed as well have a similar sort of, like, oh, I know I love this, but oh, my family wants me to be rational and have a, you know, a career that they’re not worried about, so and then they always end up just going back into it anyway.

Jennifer Balkan: 6:20

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, I don’t know, in this, in this life, in this one life, you know, some of us believe we have one life, you are at least on this planet, it’s like you’ve got to do, if you’re lucky enough to be able to pursue a dream, you got to do it, it’s, I mean, that’s basically what happened with me. It’s like, I, I, you know, there are all these, not, you know, this forces that were sort of, sort of trying spelling out a life that I guess I had started putting together, or a path based on what I studied and what I went to school for, and, and that, that just.. I don’t know, like once, once I, once I really discovered painting, I felt so.. I know, so fueled, and so passionate about it in a way that I had not felt like anything else before, it, and so at that point I realized that I’ve got to do this, this like this is what I need to do at the cost expense of letting whatever else go, so yeah, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a strong force,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:43

it’s, it’s like, you know, a magnetic force. It really pulls you back, and it’s, it’s also, you know, for some people it’s even like after a successful career, where, like, they retire, and they’re like, okay, this is what I always wanted to do, and now, like, nothing’s gonna stop me. So it takes a lot, a lot of strength and gumption, to you know, pick up from a sooner stage, right? Like, oh, wow, I like, I studied this crazy major, and then it just wasn’t fulfilling, and I know exactly what fulfills me, you know. I think, yeah,

Jennifer Balkan: 8:16

you know, and I, and people around, you know, friends, family, they were just sort of like scratching their heads, like you just finished a PhD, and so it, my, my graduate studies were different from my undergrad, so my undergrad was in behavioral neuroscience, and then my grad later in sociology with a focus on Latin American sociology, which, which is what brought me down to Austin, the proximity to Mexico, and, and so, yeah, you know, like, had some really great experiences living, living in Mexico, and conducting field work, and it was, you know, really, really beautiful, and so after all, after all of that, and I mean, you know, there were there were a lot of low points, as because that’s that’s what life looks like, and and that, and I think mainly that I just kept on kind of like questioning myself and wondering if this was the thing that I’m, I’m meant to be doing, and so when I, you know, when I discovered the thing, and it was not the same as sort of this, this path that I had started creating for myself, it was like, what, you know, people were just kind of puzzled, and like concerned, and, but you know, you just gotta have to go with what I don’t know with yourself, like with, with you have all the answers for yourself, and sometimes. Don’t know what they are, but you know, in the universe helps guide us to kind of determine what what’s next, so, so, yeah, that is, yeah, kind of went, went, went forward with, with the, with the help of, of having some like wonderful interactions with people who you know, as I was telling you about this when we first met, like a couple of people, and not necessarily in, in visual, in the visual arts, but had, like, taken a big leap of faith, so to speak, like just had pursued a creative, a creative passion, a creative pursuit that was not in line with their kind of prescribed practical life, and just went for it, and I, you know, I kind of glommed onto some of these, these stories, and I’m like, all right, I don’t want to look back someday when I’m when I’m old and regret like not not doing it, so so I went for

Laura Arango Baier: 10:59

it. Yeah, exactly. I was actually going to mention that, you know, the regret part, because, like, you were saying, you know, we have one life that we can control at the moment, maybe, right? Yeah,

Jennifer Balkan: 11:11

right, right. So

Laura Arango Baier: 11:12

it’s good to keep in mind, like, oh man, like, how do I live a life that I know every morning I wake up, I am excited to wake up, and I’m excited to work on a project, instead of, you know, leading all the way down to my deathbed, eventually, and just regretting not having the strength to trust myself, you know. I think that’s, you know, it’s one of those things to consider if someone out there listening is like, oh, maybe I want to be an artist, but I’m a little scared. It’s, it’s scary

Jennifer Balkan: 11:48

indeed,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:48

but yeah, but if you’re gonna regret it at the end of your life, not at least trying, then there’s your answer, you know.

Jennifer Balkan: 11:55

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s just, I don’t know, it’s like it’s taking risks, risks of all kinds, and, and some are much, you know, feel much bigger than others, but, but I like, you don’t, I mean, even in whatever it is you’re studying, you know, whether it’s whether it’s art or something more academic or scientific, it’s if you don’t take these like little, like, I don’t know, kind of throw caution to the wind and trust yourself a little bit in, in taking a step forward, kind of out of your comfort zone. You’re just like, you’re never going to, I don’t know, you’re like, like, I feel like you’re never going to move to the next level, whatever the next level is in life, like in getting to a higher, higher space, and something that’s more rewarding and fulfilling, and and connecting in some way, so, so it is, it’s like it’s not necessarily always the safe way to go, the safe, comfortable, yeah, route, but, but that doesn’t, yeah, I don’t, I don’t, I think like those that don’t, that that are just always on that safe, comfortable route may never get to a spot where they like feel like complete elation, you know, this sort of like this, this bliss that doesn’t last. It’s like, does it’s like these moments of, I mean, that’s just.. I guess that’s just.. I don’t know, this like the metaphysical aspect of our lives and such, which we’re, we, you know, hold on to these like these moments, these flow states that are like very, very precious, and of course, if they were like continuous and they lasted, then they wouldn’t be what they are, and it’s just this, you know, yin yang thing that’s a constant up and down, but it’s good to try to bite onto those little morsels when we can

Laura Arango Baier: 14:02

exactly, yeah, yeah, and actually I also really wanted to ask you, because you, you have such a studied STEM background, do you find that your past studies, you know, neuroscience, sociology, have they affected your career as an artist, or the way that you perceive painting, or the subject matter.

Jennifer Balkan: 14:27

Yeah, I think you know, I think the short answer is yes. I think that, like, I mean, really everybody is what all of us do in our lives, whether we want it to or not, like impact the choices we make, and whatever those choices are, and what we choose to create, what we choose to describe in words and in pictures, and so even if I were to say no, like it has. Has to, it’s like it just like has to impact what I’m, what I’m, or how I’m thinking about what I’m thinking about, and I’m when I’m articulating something with paint or coming up with a, an idea for a series or paintings, and so I think, like, very like tangibly. I love, I love the idea when I, and I’ve always been drawn to painting people, like from from the get go. The the work that has spoken to me most before I ever even started to paint was figurative work, and particularly the kind of figurative work, the kind of mark making that’s probably, I mean, you know, now as a like a learned person in this, which I didn’t know how to describe really before, I’m like optical mixing, basically work that in which you can really see the artist’s hand, but has has a strong capture of, you know, some naturalism and reality, but is very much a little bit of a beautiful abstraction of of swaths of paint, so, so, like, you know, basically getting up close, and you know, this, what, like, what, what reads from a distance as very realistic and very continuous and fluid, is a, is a, is a wonderful little collage of, of little shapes and bits, and so, so that’s so that’s been the kind of stuff that has that has like really really spoken to me over the years and and I see it like I want to, well, so when I’m working on visually describing and and a person or a face or I’m like thinking about what is underneath that skin, so to speak, and so you know, thinking about the thoughts of what’s happening under the expression and really trying to evoke an emotional state in the paint, and and so like that is like that’s very kind of brain like emotional neuro scientific thinking about sort of the cerebral and the emotional within all of us and so somehow when described like describing that in paint, so I am, so I, so I think that just because I always loved that kind of study, it definitely informs the way I think about painting the human subject matter that I, that I do,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:01

yeah, and I totally agree that it is inevitable that you know anything that has happened in our past in some way or another is going to influence what we do, regardless of whether we perceive it that way or not, because the human brain is so complicated.

Jennifer Balkan: 18:16

Totally, yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:19

yeah, and actually speaking of, besides, you know, the evoking emotion and the collage of color, what inspires a piece for you? Like, where does the idea start for you?

Jennifer Balkan: 18:37

You know, it’s so like, as a, as, as somebody who’s been doing this for a while, and I know you, as you know, fellow artist and painter, can relate to what, what you know, what, what drove us at one time change has changed, you know, and I, we, I hope, like I hope, I hope that we all, you know, who are on this path can continue to grow and change. I mean, I know you know we all probably see, see work out there, you know, maybe not know personally or not know personally folks who are like look very much the same as they did, you know, 10 years ago or 15 years ago, and, and so, and it always kind of puzzles me, because I, I get, I don’t know, I get tired of, of the same thing, and what’s like, or like creating the same thing in the same way, and I am, and what’s funny about that is that I think, like, okay, I’m kind of totally going off of thrills here, like, tangent-wise, but I’m realizing, but anyway, bring it back and maybe expand on that thought in a moment, what is what inspires me, so I would say at this moment. And time like shapes and light, and it as, as related to human subject matter. I mean, this is so.. it was like I’m laughing at myself because I feel like this just describes everything, but like human subject matter and objects, people and stuff, and their stuff, not our stuff assigned to them. If you are like creating a composition, and much like you know, in the past I used to think of creating concepts and series somewhat like a storyboard and film, and so I would, and I’ve, I like, actually, to this day, I still continue to paint like this, and I, it’s like something that it’s very hard to shake, and I guess that’s just, you know, we are what we are at some point, but, but from the very start of when I, when I began to paint, I would think in like little series, and so, so it might be, you know, working with a model and kind of coming up with this narrative that includes various physical elements, objects, and things, props that, that kind of tell whatever the narrative is that I’m creating and and so and that and working that out across like you know anywhere from three paintings to six paintings or whatever whatever my my my idea is and so so that of course, is like a little series of something. What we usually label, and I got so accustomed to kind of thinking like that, or maybe it just has always been in me, that that it’s hard. It’s like hard to just paint a painting and leave it at that, like it’s like frustrating, I mean, when it comes to like working on something in my studio, like not just, you know, responding to in the moment of whether you know it’s a still life project or working on a model at the at the school or in an open studio, which all of which I love to do. I just like love somebody puts something in front of me, and okay, draw and paint that thing, like that is that’s a that’s something that I, you know, it’s like just just drawing and painting for paint sake, and not coming up with the the thing that you’re going to visualize, so, so that, yeah, so like, but, but in my, I would say earlier I was very much driven by it, like, okay, I’m creating this particular narrative and spelling it out, and with paint, and but in, in like the last, I don’t know, hand, like few years, I’ve, I’ve been really, I don’t know, like the impact of the light and the color and the shape within the pictorial space is so exciting to me, so it’s like, like, more so than it used to be, and I, you know, when I look at work out there, I am like, so moved when I see really strong shape, I don’t know, like shape relationship, and so when, so now, and things that I’m thinking about now is like, how can I use elements that I, you know, like actual, you know, person, and and various objects and such to create that effect, like I’m so, and and then sometimes and also I love color and so there are times where I’m like I just want to paint pink and yellow, like it has to be pink and yellow, and so so I will like that color relationship will kind of drive something, drive and, and the idea, the concept, whatever. So, I think, like, it’s gotten just less concrete for me, as like, I don’t have to paint like the person doing the thing, but it’s more of, like, yeah, the person might be doing the thing, but there has to be all this exciting light shape thing, you know, first and foremost, almost before whatever the actual identifiable stuff is,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:51

yeah, and I think that’s a really great route to start with, because at its, I guess, at its core, like painting in general is an. Abstract form of reality, because it is a d on a d, so there’s no way around it. You are taking, you’re drawing out from reality, and you’re putting it on something else with the illusion that it’s something entirely different than a flat surface. So, yeah, I think that that makes perfect sense. And I totally relate to, you know, I think a lot of us are so motivated by ooh, this object, and like, what if I put it like this with this other thing, and yeah, and it tells us about this other thing, and that’s perfectly normal, because you know, as humans, that’s how many of us perceive visual narrative, but yeah, I think exploring that is really cool, and it actually wanted to circle back on, you know, what was it like for you? And it’s okay, this is like a little too personal, but what was it like for you when you realized, man, I don’t like what I’m painting anymore, or I’m bored of this, I need to break away. Like, what was that transition like for you?

Jennifer Balkan: 25:55

I feel like it’s.. it hasn’t been so.. I don’t know, dramatic, I guess it’s just like these little moments where, and it’s, it’s usually where I’m, I don’t know, like exploring, maybe exploring a slightly different medium, a different palette, a different, you know, just doing something a little different, and I just, I kind of really recently read another artist, trying to remember who now, I can’t remember somewhere, somewhere out in the social media world where they were saying that if they, if they get stuck in a rut, they try something in a different medium, which I thought was like very relatable, and so one, you know, one thing that, like, really changed, or I don’t know, added, added, and adjusted a lot for me was during the pandemic, like, you know, a lot of, lot of change happened for a lot of people, and it started off as being like really, really hard, I know, I know, you know, it’s like either as an artist you were having the time of your life because like you could lock yourself in your studio and nothing mattered, and I’ve heard of people being like the most creative they ever were, but as an artist and a parent and a kid, you know, just trying to navigate school and isolation and all that stuff, it was, is pretty rough, pretty rough, but anyway, thankfully that’s behind us, but one thing that did happen for me during, during the COVID times was that I discovered some new drawing medium, and it happened because I, you know, at at our school, Telia Dojo, while we were, while we were trying to survive the pandemic, like as a school and financially and such, we we started remote hope hosting remote open studios, which actually ended up being like just a savior for so many people out there that were, you know, I mean, feeling isolated and wanting to continue some kind of drawing communal experiences or painting experience, and so what we, what we would do was that we would, we would host Zoom sessions with recordings of live models, so it was kind of, so we would do these recordings where it’s kind of funny to think about a recording where someone’s just sitting like that, like recorded, like, but but it’s still, it still was not a photo, you know. It’s like we wanted to sort of the feeling of like we’re work, you know, there’s a, there’s a person in there that it’s not totally still. So, at any rate, we did that, and the silver lining in that was that we had, you know, people tuning in from all over the world, which was not, you know, I think that’s what a lot of people talk about now, about pandemic stuff, but so that was pretty neat, and so, so, as, as, as someone to host the Zoom session, you know, we would alternate among the people working at Dojo, and so what I had decided was like, I didn’t always feel like, you know, it’s like computer screen, you’re navigating a Zoom session, letting people in and out, and doing all the kind of technical stuff, and then also working on your, your whatever, your drawing or your painting of the individual on the screen, and we would share, we would take breaks and share and such, so, which was pretty cool, and you could see everybody’s little head, you know, working on their stuff, and, and so at some point I, you know, it just like became a little too cumbersome painting because of the work, you know, because of the key using the keyboard and all of that, so I’m like, oh. To draw, and, but I’m like, I want to draw in color, and so my, I had gotten my kid a set of Posca markers, and so the, are you familiar with those? What those are, they’re paint pens, and so they look like markers, but they’re actually acrylic paint in, in pen form or in marker form, rather, and, and so, anyway, I was like, huh, maybe I’ll try, you know, this is like random, maybe I’ll try using some of these, and so that became a whole thing for me, and, and so, because they, they’re opaque and they dry like that, just like acrylic paint does, but you have a lot of control because it’s really like using a drawing medium, and so, so I, you know, I got really into it, I got really into all the hatching, basically, like, so I would describe the, you know, the physicality of a person with hatching with cross hatching as color mixing, so it was like it just fulfilled this whole like this real fun optical optical mixing kind of process that I love, and, and so I ended up like getting more of them, and getting a bigger palette, and, and really, really kind of rolling with that for a while, so that was a whole new thing, and people responded to them pretty well, and I started doing little commissions of little like portrait heads and such, with doing that, and so that was born out of needing something a little different, and some change, and then, and some change in that, and then from that I got into Bic pen drawing as well, very similar, except ink, and, and using those little, like old, like old school clicky mix, the four, the blue pens with the red, red, black, green, and blue ink, and they also have a couple other varieties of color, so, so, yeah, and so I kind of, I just like developed another way of mark making on with a, you know, dry-ish medium on paper, which was really, really fun and different, and from that, after from that, my next kind of, I don’t know, idea concept was like, how can I merge that with my oil painting, so that kind of like spawned trying to figure out a union between the two, and I did, and I created a body of work with that, bringing those two things together. So, anyway, all this is to say that, like, it’s just exciting to try new things, and so, and I like, but, like, in the end, when looking at all, you know, the kinds of things that I have done, I kind of like laugh, because I realized that there’s still such a similarity, like what I perceive as like such a big step in a different direction in the overarching umbrella of all of it. It’s like you’re still painting the people, you still like the masks, you still like the animal, like it’s just like you still are doing kind of a lot of the same thing, but in slightly different ways, and I guess that I guess that is what, like, really describes, you know, somebody is like personal voice, you know, in through throughout it all, so it’s like you see all these changes, but there’s still kind of a common thread of that, that individual through, through it all, so, but, uh, but yeah, so that has, that has kept me from, I don’t know, things getting like stale after a while,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:16

yeah, yeah, and I think that’s it’s one of those things as an artist, where that growth is there, it’s waiting in, you know, like in your case, like a new medium that you hadn’t explored, and or even just in digging deeper to one subject matter. I mean, there’s, there’s so many different ways to just grow as an artist if you’re looking, and if that’s what you want, I mean, I think it’s inevitable that we grow, and in terms of the voice, I mean, yeah, that’s like one of those things where, like, you look at your work, there’s like one piece part of like the micro and the macro, and like you, it’s like it’s totally different, but then in the macro, it’s like, oh, never mind, still me, it’s still me. Yeah, like I still write exactly the same with pen and with pencil and with a giant marker or Sharpie, it’s still going to be the

Jennifer Balkan: 35:09

same. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 35:11

so it’s yeah, it’s inevitable. And then I also wanted to ask you, how your time with Atelier Dojo has also affected your work and your inspiration as well.

Jennifer Balkan: 35:28

My whole Atelier Dojo existence has been, you know, such an incredible part of my life as an artist, and, and you know, I think it’s just, I don’t know, it’s beautiful, what, when, when, when things unexpected happen, and then they end up being like such a big part of you, and so the story behind that is that back in 2018 my dear friends Denise Fulton and Karen Offit, friends, fellow painters opened up the school, and that was that came out of us regularly painting together, and just painting models together, like we were for a little bit with a couple other people calling ourselves the five LPs, which were the five lady painters, never got, never got the T-shirts with the actual like LP record, but anyway, we talked about it for a while, so, but at any rate, opened up a school, and the initial vision for it was a place where we could teach classes, painting and drawing, not just us, but, you know, other hire other people to host open studios, live open studios, were model poses, and, and also bring workshop artists in from all over the place, so there was like nothing like that in Austin, and we were, you know, we were frustrated that this, these kinds of places existed in, you know, other cities all over the country and world, and so decided that it was time for us, so really got that rolling, and what it was met with like great acceptance from the community, which was wonderful. So you know, we wanted to have a figurative art making, mark making hub in Austin, and like you know that seemed to be a need for other people too, so, so, yeah, so that was, you know, so the dojo became, you know, a popular place from from the get go, and then come about 20, about, you know, probably about a year, like maybe a year and a half later, one of our wonderful instructors, Justin Baiersa had yearned to teach some classes with longer poses akin to what he had studied at in the Angel Academy, where you went. I learned, and so, so he, yeah, so you know, we were like, we’re very open, we’re like, well, if people want them, let’s, let’s do it. And so Justin started teaching a couple classes, a cast drawing class and a long post figure drawing class, and and students were signing up and signing up repeatedly, and wanting, you know, wishing that they could do it on more of a regular, you know, not just a weekly basis, but come in a couple times a week or more, and so it just really organically grew out of a desire of from from students as well as just in teaching it, Danny Grant jumped in with him, and they were co-teaching for a little while, and then come, I guess, in 21 I had, I had just had a solo exhibition, and I was like ready for some change, you know, the feeling of like finishing up a show, and just being, you know, kind of exhausted, so, and also, and also having taught in the same manner I had been teaching for years, which was really wonderful, and I’m like, you know, super grateful that I was able to do that for so long, but wanting to just pause, and I don’t know, be a student for a little bit, be a student again for a little bit, and, and try something different, and I don’t know, just kind of like a little bit of, I was at a little bit of a crossroads in my, in my own art world, meaning I was definitely getting a. Little burned out on the classes that I was teaching, and just the format of them, and so I began to study with Justin at the, at what we were at that point calling Dojo Academy, and I loved it. I just, like, I, you know, I don’t know, I think it was just, it was he chuckled when I told him I wanted to be a student, and but he, yeah, jumped in there, and spending time with these casts, and the figure for longer than I had ever done was really, you know, like I don’t know, just really, really exhilarating, taking a much deeper dive into observational work than I had been doing in the past, and so anyway, super loved it, and kind of just sort of inadvertently became Justin’s assistant with students, didn’t plan for that, but it just kind of happened, I think, like I, you know, I did, I did okay as a student, just having had all the all the experience that I had in a slightly different way, so it, it was like I’m learning something new, kind of, but I, I still, I felt very connected to it, so, so, anyway, fast forward, Justin decides he’s moving out of state, because he’d been in Austin for a long time, and I’m, I realized it was up to me to sort of say to keep this thing going, and so I was like very, very committed to it. I did a ton of research on atelier programs, consulted with some painter friends who are very like well deep in within their own programs, teaching, that is, and, and, yeah, basically, got the program going, hired, you know, it’s, it’s crazy to think about, it’s been through some changes, hiring some different people, we are now at this moment, we have an incredible staff, and we are, I guess, coming up on our third year and graduating our very first students, so.. and it’s like.. it’s just such a.. I don’t know. it’s. it’s so neat to be on other artist students journeys with them, and so that, that’s something that I didn’t experience as a teacher before, before this, and so, though I had, like, you know, it was, I always loved teaching, I loved geeking out on technique, and, and, you know, and I had the range of students, like people, take art classes for all kinds of reasons, some, some pretty serious, some like really, really want to, you know, learn and better their craft, and have some professional goals in mind, and other people are like hard after a hard day’s work, just want to, you know, relax a little bit, and so, and all of that is equally good, you know, it’s like there’s so many reasons for, for, for, you know, trying this kind of thing, but when I started teaching in the academy, it was like, it was, it was just a whole different kind of teaching experience, because you know, continuing to teach the same students over and over, and watch, get to get to be by their side as they were like having those light bulb moments, and these, you know, also pitfalls, like just, you know, the things that happen as we’re, as we’re all learning and continuing to work, and um, and and just like developing like really strong relationships and community and camaraderie and I like, wow, this is such a beautiful thing, and, and it’s like, I can’t imagine life without it at this point, so, so, yeah, Atelier Doda, we’ve been growing, we’ve, we’ve moved into a different space from our original space, and now we’re getting ready to move into an yet another space, because we’re expanding the size with an additional classroom to get to offer more programming, so we still, we have lots of six week classes, we host workshops still from with artists from all over, we have our open studios and we have our three year ish tuition based Dojo Academy program, so lot of good stuff going on at the school and and it’s yeah, it’s a lot. Really great place to be. I feel grateful for it.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:03

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 18th of June with our special guest, Timothy Tyler. You can find the sign-up link in the show notes. Yeah, yeah, and I think if anyone’s in the Austin area and wants to get some good education, they should totally, of course, add the link in the show notes for Atelier Dojo, so anyone can go check it out and sign up for any workshops and fun stuff, you know, you never know, you can try a figure session one night and before you know it, you’re obsessed,

Jennifer Balkan: 46:01

totally, yes. yeah, yeah. Oh, and you know what? One other one thing I wanted to say about that, you know, as I was thinking about some of the questions in advance, something that maybe you’ll, you know, you were thinking of getting to anyway, but something really special about the art program, and something that I think about in my own artistic path is that, that we really, you know, I think, like, as artists, or as, let’s say, as, as growing artists and students, we wonder how we will cultivate our own voice, you know, it’s like, you know, it’s like, I don’t, I don’t want to just learn how to draw and paint well, but I also, you know, I want to, I want to be unique in some way, or I want to, I want to do something a little different, and and be able to express myself in my own way, and have, you know perhaps be identifiable in some way, you know, and and I hear that a lot, like, how, okay, like, how do I figure that out, and I think, like, my answer to it is, like, either, either you already have it, and you just need to work like hours and hours of, of like, you know, really, really learning and practicing and growing within the craft to, to more successfully articulate visually what’s all what’s what’s there, or you maybe don’t know what that is yet, but you’re working on it for hours and hours, and, and experimenting, you know, with instruct, you know, taking the instruction in and trying things in different ways, and, and just, you know, learning the medium, and such, that you just can’t, you will, you will, like, there’s no way you will won’t figure it out, you know. It’s just like you will kind of just gravitate towards something, you know. Certainly, some subject matter, some way of paint handling from all your studies with different people. You like a little of this, a little of that. You take, you know, you take something good from from each person, and then work out how best to describe that yourself, and that becomes the you, and so, so at our school, like, we’re really, we don’t, you know, we’re something that’s very important to us is, is to, you know, is to really cultivate being the best, the best version of yourself, and so that means that when a student comes in, we never want to strip them of what is already there, because something is already there, and so we’re, you know, it’s like with our instruction and our critiques and our, you know, help helping them to grow as a, as a painter, as an artist. There’s, there’s kind of, there’s caution not to, like, you know, remove some of what’s already there, but instead, How can we help improve? How can, how can we help, help them to see a little more, see differently, I guess. And so, and with that, you know, certainly the all the technical stuff, you know, the measurement accuracy and line and mark making and construction and anatomical knowledge and all that technical stuff, but it does not necessarily have to be at odds with the with the the voice that’s that’s already in that that particular student, so we don’t need to kind of strip them of the of the Eunice, I don’t. To take the you out of you, but we just are adding all this other stuff to it, so and I think that also just helps with them coming out the other side and feeling like motivated and feeling like they, you know, maybe they don’t actually know exactly what you know, I mean, you know, it takes a while, as we know, to sort of figure, figure yourself out, but, but they’re not, they don’t feel stripped of anything, so that’s that’s important to

Laura Arango Baier: 50:31

us. Yeah, and I totally appreciate it, because from my experience, obviously, this doesn’t happen to everyone, but you know, when you go to these academic schools, there’s a lot of course competition, and there’s a lot of really rigorous, intense training, which is great. It’s really great, but at the same time, like you said, you know, there’s a little bit of that erasure of the self that happens because in order for you to reach a specific level of skill you need to erase your mistakes a lot, and I had a guest, actually a long while ago, who said your voice is actually the mistakes you repeat, which I thought was really interesting. Of course, you choose what mistakes you want, or what could be deemed as mistakes, right? Because, of course, there’s no real right or wrong in drawing. In the end, it’s really just like, okay, well, if this is my goal, then these are the steps I have to follow. But then, when that’s no longer your goal, say, for example, the super high finish, high render academic style, now you have to figure out, okay, what’s my new goal, and what are the steps that I need to get to there, because if I keep following these steps, I’m never going to get to this other goal, and I think that’s one of the hard parts about graduating from a very rigorous academic program, which is you become so reliant on this from a to b situation that when you want to go to point C, sure, you have some of the starter tools, but you, you don’t even remember what point C was supposed to be anymore, like, like it, because, of course, the academic can, it can be really addictive, it can be really fun, because it’s like, oh my gosh, I could paint a million still lives, because I know I can accomplish it, but at the same time, it’s like, for me personally, I just felt very unfulfilled by that. I was like, yeah, I can paint all these still lives, but I don’t, I don’t get any fulfillment out of it in the same way that I would if I was trying to explore these other ideas that I have, so I appreciate that Atelier Dojo, at least, wants to retain some of that. Okay, let’s think about, you know, how we can make sure that we’re using what you know and what you want and your style, and just develop that, so that it, it’s more accurate without erasing you completely, which I think is it’s a great goal to have. It seems a little hard, but it seems like a great goal. I think, like,

Jennifer Balkan: 53:11

it’s definitely.. I mean, it is.. it’s hard in this.. it’s what am I trying to say.. it can definitely be hard in the sense that maybe the progress, quote, whatever progress in quotes that a student hopes to make might be a little slow, might happen a little more slowly, and that’s okay, I, you know, I’ve, I think, like that’s really, we’ve got, got your whole life, and we’re, you know, I’m, I’m still, I still consider myself a student of all of this, so it’s, it, it, there’s, there, there are never any shortcuts, no matter what, like, no matter, no matter what particular kind of, of instructional program you pursue, or maybe, or not at all, and you are just on your own, trying, you know, learning and figuring it out. It’s time, it is time, and patience and discipline and hours and like hours and hours of bad drawings, bad paintings, and you keep on going, and so, so in that sense, like there’s, it’s just literally doing it as much as possible, and that is the way to getting better, like improving, you know. Regardless, there is not.. there’s.. I mean, I.. I would say, if, like, I did not attend the programs that exist now, didn’t, when I. Was when I was a much younger person, and, and I, you know, I’m like, oh man, you know, like, uh, if only, if only I would have gone to said school and done such and such, and it would have been quicker, like, so, so I do, I, okay, I do believe that there is a more efficient road to improvement, and to great, to great improvement, for sure, for sure. But even with that, it’s still, it’s still the hours of studying and sketching, and you know, keeping a sketchbook and drawing whenever you can, and all that stuff, so in that sense, you know, it’s just like it’s just you gotta love this stuff, you gotta love quote practicing, because we’re always practicing, and so it’s like, if you don’t love the process, then it’s not worth your time, because it’s too, it’s too darn hard to like sustain yourself financially for you not to love the process and just love the practice of doing it.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:11

Thank you. Yes, we’re so happy you said love the process, because there’s always, and I feel like it could, I could just be speaking for myself is the last before we continue to the next part, for the next question, because this is just so fascinating, but I feel like a lot of artists that I’ve noticed, you know, when you’re, you know, in the beginning stages, going into like early career to mid career, and then by the time you’re late career, you’re fine, but hopefully, but I feel like there’s always this, a bit of like a struggle between process and end result, right? And it’s always going to be like, oh, I want this end result, but then you don’t know the process to get to it, or like, the process completely alters the end result, and you know the idea you had in mind at the beginning is just like it never, it’s totally different, it’s not even anywhere close to what it was. It’s almost like when you have like a dream and things make sense in the dream, and then you like try to interpret it in real life, is like hands don’t move like that.

Jennifer Balkan: 57:17

Yeah, I like that analogy, that’s totally,

Laura Arango Baier: 57:21

so I feel like, yeah, loving the process, and just enjoying the process, and allowing that to also let, let your expectations shift, because if you have, like, these expectations about, I need this painting to look like this, and just have this extreme level of control, for some people, it works, and that’s great, but I think also, in the, you know, the side of like experimenting, learning, and allowing yourself to grow, it is so important to release some of that control a little bit, give yourself some room to maybe take things in a direction that you would never expect, that might be even better than this, like extreme uptightness, so it might be preventing a piece from like really speaking back to you, which I like to say that like paintings oftentimes will tell us what it means. It’s like screaming at you, and it’s your responsibility to reply to it and be like, okay, fine, I’ll move this over here, like you’re asking,

Jennifer Balkan: 58:21

I’m experiencing that literally right now.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:26

I feel like we all feel that, or it’s like, shut up, stop looking at me painting. I hear you, stop it.

Jennifer Balkan: 58:33

Yes, yes, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 58:35

yes. So I’m really happy you mentioned process, because the more you focus on enjoying the process, like you said, the easier it is to, I would dare say, like you know, reach a painting that you might not have even expected to have ever reached, you know, if you had just kept limited your vision to like this level of perfection, instead of just like what can go beyond that, you know, glass ceiling that you’re putting, you know, yeah,

Jennifer Balkan: 59:04

yes, that’s

Laura Arango Baier: 59:07

a big one,

Jennifer Balkan: 59:09

so yeah, oh my gosh, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 59:11

yeah, that’s the artist’s life, but also, you know, in terms of the more monotonous side, that is a little bit tougher in the artist’s life. What was the moment for you where you became full time? What was that like for you when you, you know, you said, okay, this is it, no day job, or I mean, having a teaching job is great because you know you’re still an artist, but what was that like for you? That transition,

Jennifer Balkan: 59:40

yeah, yeah, you know, I had to, when I was thinking about this question, I kind of had to like go back and actually remember a few of the steps, like before I was like, okay, here I go, and you know, and play that out a little bit, it was in 2005 Dave, when I think I could have, I said, like, I officially left the part-time job I had as a research assistant at University of Texas, which is, which was a great thing to be able to do, because I could fill the rest of my hours with painting, drawing stuff, and before then my first like opportunity to show work was in 2003 and I was invited, kind of like an artist collective of sorts to exhibit two paintings, and it was like, was a really big deal for me, and, and, and they were received, they were received pretty well, and I then, by kind of via that, had an invitation to a local gallery, and quickly developed a relationship with them, and they, and they offered to give me a solo show in oh four, and so that was super exciting. These are the days where you know, hard to believe for most artists now, but you, you could walk into a gallery with your images under your arm and be like, “Hi, I’m an artist, you want to look at my, you know, my portfolio, which later on, even, even like a little while after that, I remember people saying, “Don’t ever do that again, or like, “Just do not do that, don’t dare do that in New York, you might be able to do that in Austin, but you know this, all like, there are just so many rules and like good guidance as to what you should and shouldn’t do as a, as a pounding the pavement, literally, artist, but it worked for me in that moment, and, and my naive self, and so, so, yeah, so that was kind of like the beginning of me exhibiting work, and and then in oh five, I, so I had been taking some classes, local classes here in Austin, and in 2005 I spent a month at the Denver Art Student League, where I just kind of filled my days with painting and drawing, and it was since I had never been like an official art student, it was as close to that experience, and it was just wonderful, and so when I returned from that was when I decided, like, all right, I think I’m going for it, and, and so that is when I left the part-time job, and, and I had recently gotten married, or in the, in the last couple years before that, gotten married, and my very supportive husband, Jeff, I said to him, I said,’Listen, I know this is like might feel really crazy, but if you can just financially support me for a little bit while I like really kind of figure this out, I’ll get you back at some point. Like, I hope to be able to do the same for you. He’s a super creative guy and musician and has played guitar all his life and such, so I, and a lot of other things, but, but I really, yeah, just with his support I was able to just say, okay, I’ll figure this out, and and so I, so that’s what I did, and then, and then in it was like later that year that I had my very first teaching job, and and the director of the local sculpture academy here in Austin was familiar with my work and asked me if I wanted to teach figure drawing, which was very scary for me, but also exciting and and very intimidating, and when I was taking some really incredible classes in Denver, I thought about the idea of teaching the stuff at some point, and like really, really holding on to some gems of knowledge that great people were bestowing upon me, and note taking, and everything, and thinking, like, okay, maybe I would want to teach this stuff. So that was my first, that was my first opportunity, which, you know, was scary and hard at first, but very rewarding. And then it just, and then more of that started to happen. I then taught figure painting there, and then that, then I ended up getting a couple other jobs, and so forth, and and eventually decided to start teaching in my own studio to small groups, so private but small. Groups of people where I’d hire, we would hire a model, and, and I, that, that, that, that began my regular six week sessions, which, at the time, I had, I had a wait list on them, you know, continually I would, I would alternate between portrait and figure painting, and then eventually I started doing some still life. It just because, at the time, there, aside from the university and the community college, there was very.. I mean, actually, at University of Texas, it.. you know, there was no representational mark making, not so much right now, either a little bit, but at the time zero, you know, it was not, you know, the the trend was not that, and so, so I had, yeah, I like the classes were in demand, which was like pretty good for me, so I did that all like for years up until 2018 where I kind of moved my classes into Atelier Dojo, and then brought on, you know, more students and all that stuff, but, but that, that really, so, so, you know, the teaching was very part-time, and it enabled me to be able to paint, be able to think about showing work do commissions from time to time, so I just, just kind of developing myself alongside that, so, so that was that, was it, that was that little turning point.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:35

Nice, yeah, and honestly, teaching makes you a better artist as well, because it just forces you to know what you’re talking about, and to also, you know, perceive different ways that you can explain to your students something that you know, if you may, if you say it in one way to one guy, he might not understand, or she, you might not understand, but you say it in a different way, suddenly, aha, that light bulb happens, and that’s also extremely fulfilling, you know, the teaching side can be fulfilling in its own way, but yeah, yeah, teaching and

Jennifer Balkan: 1:07:11

learning from students, learning from students, like I just, yeah, I mean, it just, I always found, you know, exactly, just to echo what you said, and, and just having, I mean, you don’t know something until you have to teach it to something else, and figuring out, I think, like a methodical, I think, because of my, because of my kind of patchwork of education, and, and really determining what a really great and effective way of communicating through, you know, in method to be able to teach somebody else, so that was that was something that I had to, I definitely had to figure out, because nobody, it’s not very educational just to watch somebody do their thing without structure, and so I had structure, but I didn’t, it wasn’t so clearly spelled out until I had to figure out how to spell it out for somebody else, and so yeah, that for 100% like, okay, what, what do I.. what do I do again?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:25

Yeah, yeah, that’s changed

Jennifer Balkan: 1:08:27

so much over time too, because you know, like, the more you know, the more you learn to be a great teacher, you should always be willing to continue to learn, and, and, and, and keep current on just everything out there, so you know, just constantly tweaking and adjusting and doing, you know, getting rid of what doesn’t work very well, and so, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:58

yeah, yeah, and it’s, it’s, it’s an endless, you know, sort of well of information, like you said, like you should constantly be learning, and also, gosh, like I know we’ve probably all experienced this as well, but like having a good teacher, it really just changes your life, no matter what subject matter, right? Like, you always remember that moment where that teacher, I think, at its core, what I think really hits when you have a good teacher is the fact that they listen to you and they respond in a way that you understand. It’s almost like they have to learn a very unique little language with you to get you to understand it, at least with painting, and I think that can make a huge difference, equally, that, like, you know, you can tell when a teacher really doesn’t care, like it’s the worst, because then that also kind of stays with you, but yeah, you know, do. Just learning from a good, good teacher, and then also from the side of teaching, you know, learning something as if you were going to teach it, even if you’re not, is also mind blowing. You can learn anything that way.

Jennifer Balkan: 1:10:14

Very good point. Absolutely,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:17

yeah.

Jennifer Balkan: 1:10:17

And, like, and just, and also sitting in other people’s classes, other taking classes, just like continuing your own education, is a wonderful thing. I, you know, I have the privilege of getting to sit in on my fellow instructors, colleagues’ classes, and so, and we, we encourage doing that amongst amongst our little team, so that we can, like, you know, try to stay unified, try not to confuse students. She said this, he said that. What’s the, you know, trying to, like, minimize, like, too much contradiction and conflict, but all, but just, I just, I get so much out of being getting, you know, getting to learn from them as well, and like, oh, wow, I love the way they just described that thing that I understand and describe in a slightly different way to students, like, oh, cool, I’m gonna, I’m gonna use that, like, that will work. I like that, you know, and so that you know, that’s just what I.. I feel very lucky to be able to do that, and then, and to continue my own learning with, with all of that.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:36

Absolutely, yes. And then I also wanted to ask, because you know, teaching, I’m guessing, is a good amount of your one of your incomes, which is great. So many artists, when they, you know, they teach workshops, or they teach at academies, that’s a great source of income, because you get to keep a good amount of it, compared to, you know, working with galleries, of course. But what have, in terms of, you know, making a living as an artist, would have been, would have been some of your income streams that have worked for you, and your unique way of approaching, you know, your business, because everyone does it a little different.

Jennifer Balkan: 1:12:12

Sure, yeah, I mean, really, I would say teaching is really the main one for me, or has been I’ve also done, you know, and continue to do commission work, but really that’s it, that is pretty much it, you know, and being kind of open to different upper, you know, different kinds of teaching in the past. Yeah, I feel like I feel fortunate that that has worked for me, because it doesn’t work for everybody, and not everybody likes doing it, and I, you know, that’s totally fine. So, because it’s worked well for me, I’ve been just keeping, you know, with that predominantly, and I, you know, it’s funny because even in times where I have taught a lot less and I have way more studio time, I.. it’s isolating, you know, it’s sort of like it’s funny because I, I’m around people, you know, as far as, like, professionally, art, you know, art wise, way more than I was before being involved in Dojo Academy, and so there was a time where the life that I had, like, I guess maybe five years ago. Well, I don’t want to. It’s funny, I’m saying five years, I’m like, not the pandemic. I didn’t mean that, like, let’s say before the pandemic would look like, like in the past, past I would have said, oh my gosh, like that is the ideal life. You’re in your studio all the time, teaching your occasional class, and like, what a dream life, you know? Just, just you and your work. So I did that for, you know, a good number of years, and, and it was good for a while, and then it was a little lonely, and even, you know, and I would really look forward to those classes that I would have once a week or twice a week, maybe, and, and you know, place like, oh, cool, my like infusion of and, and like, an open, you know, open studios, it wasn’t as if like I was I was seeing painter friends and such working from models occasionally and such, but like, but anyway, kind of like living the life that I thought I wanted, I. And yeah, kind of felt, felt pretty isolating, and so, and didn’t even realize it until being involved with the school as I am that I have, yeah, it just, it feels there’s just a lot more community, I guess is really the best way of putting it, but, but just also, and maybe it’s my, it’s also my like aging self feeling a sense of purpose, like a sense of giving back, which making art can feel, you know, very narcissistic at a lot of times, it’s like, oh, here I am making my paintings. It’s all about me, my voice, you know. It’s like, here I’m talking about, like, finding our voice and all that stuff. This is what we, what we yearn for, but, but then it’s like, here, buy my work, buy the thing that I’m putting out there, that’s me, you know, that’s which, like, it’s all a matter of perspective, but, um, but I think, like, um, there’s I I think, and maybe it’s just sort of like my years doing this, I, it’s a, it’s a nice balance, you know, and people have different ways of balancing that, all different, you know, all kinds of different ways, and, and, and, so, and I, and I see, like, yeah, just like cool pursuits that other, other, other artists choose to do, whether it’s like working for some kind of organization that promotes the arts in some way for young people, or, you know, all kinds of stuff, but I have found that it, like, for my, it really just, it helps, it, it has given me so much personal satisfaction, in terms of, like, what is this all about, anyway, kind of stuff. Yeah, like putting my work out there has been a big drive for me, but also just to be able to kind of pass it, pass this on, not, not, not my paintings, but like pass this wonderful knowledge and practice on that, that is just a beautiful part of humanity to others who will also yearn it is just like it feels, it feels like a higher purpose for me personally, and that feels, you know, it feels, feels nice, because there’s a lot of questioning about all kinds of stuff right now, and on our planet, and so I’m like, if we can just be remembered once we’re, you know, we’re ruled by the robot overlords, or whatever, whatever’s about to happen to us sooner or later, like humans, they made art, they passed art down, they, they communicated visually, they shared that experience with each other, and like, that’s that’s a bigger thing,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:08

yeah, yeah. And, and you know, speaking of lineage, I mean, it’s what, you know, what we’re doing is literally what’s been happening since the beginning of, you know, cave drawings, you know, yeah, we’re still doing the same thing, just unga boom, pointing it. This is, yeah,

Jennifer Balkan: 1:18:26

exactly, exactly the

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:28

deer that’s over there, and it’s fulfilling, because it feels also like, you know, to add to what you said, is like we’re we’re just following this very long lineage of human creative expression on two dimensional surface of some sort, which is beautiful when you think about the grand scheme of humanity, and what we’ve done, and I think it’s important to remember that, yeah, because even if our name gets lost right in time, maybe someone we taught remembers us and mentions it to their students, and then, yeah, you know, you never know, life is strange. Then I wanted to ask you, if you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full-time artist, do it,

Jennifer Balkan: 1:19:21

because you cannot not do it. It’s really hard. It’s really frustrating. There are ways your ways to make some sustainable living decent money, like I’m not even talking about like oodles of money, here I’m talking about like a decent, a decent income. There’s such easier ways to do it, so you just have to really want it, and, and, and be ready, you know. We’re talking about income, sort. And such, you know, like, really, really be ready to embrace various income streams, and that is perhaps, you know, there’s something that you’ve worked at that’s not art related that you can, you know you’ve become successful at, and you can hold a job part time that doesn’t take too much of your mental and physical energy that you know in that during your other hours you’re too tired or too spent to be able to make art, so there’s that, or art related, you know, but, but it’s, I think it’s really important to be very realistic about the fact that you’re going to have to make some money between your paint, you know, between your ups and downs of your painting sales, but while you’re maybe working on a body of work for exhibition, there’s a chunk of time that you’re doing that that you’re not necessarily like churning paintings out to sell right away, so there are those spans of time, and so that you need to make some money between that, so, so, anyway, I just, I think it’s a very, very important aspect of, of, you know, thinking about what life will be like to try to make a living as an artist, and that, you know, it’s time, it’s time, and discipline, and you know, getting back to the whole process thing, like you have to just love the act of doing it, and just really have to love it. You have, you have to love the discipline of it, and be willing to put those hours in, and try not to compare yourself to others, you know, which is really, really, really hard these days. You know, we all follow a gazillion artists and enjoy that, and see art, you know, scrolling on our feeds and such, and, and it’s very easy to kind of get caught up in that, and, and be driven, you know, by that, and by, like, okay, I make this piece, and share, and see what the response is, and all that stuff, and, and that can really suck the suck the life out of you, as I have personally experienced, and you know, being willing to kind of take full on breaks and, and sort of work without distraction, like really try to remove all the chatter, the noise, so that you can put yourself to work and also be ready to, for to be able to be self-disciplined and self-motivated, you need that. So those are my little bits of advice, but it’s, but it’s all pretty beautiful. I mean, that sounded very, very like harsh, and like, but I think it’s important to, you know, to really be realistic, like, you know, it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s hard work, and also wonderful and beautiful, which is, you know, why we did, why we put the hard work in,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:17

exactly, and to add to the, you know, comparing yourself part, instead of, you know, instead of go touch some grass, which we should go touch some grass, go touch some paintbrushes, like, stay away from your phone, touch some paintbrushes,

Jennifer Balkan: 1:23:34

yes, such a pencil,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:36

and

Jennifer Balkan: 1:23:36

to add to what you just said, like the little touching of grass, it’s you have, yeah, you know, we’ve been, you know, of course, talking about all the, all the painting and art, and being in your studio stuff here, but, but, whatever, whatever it takes for you as a person to sort of like fill your cup, you know, and actually I love being outside and and cycling and stuff, and so, like, and that’s when I’m out. It’s really when I’m not in my studio, and I’m outdoors, and often by myself when I have, like, moment to really think, and not, you know, not necessarily have a lovely conversation with somebody else. But it’s like, but is when I get painting ideas, and so it’s, yeah, so that’s pretty important. Take care of your body and your mind, and in whatever ways work for you.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:30

Totally, totally 100% agree. You have to step away from the canvas as much as you have to step towards the canvas. Yes, yeah, and get sleep.

Jennifer Balkan: 1:24:42

So, important. yeah, that’s hard.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:48

But I also wanted to ask you, if you have, you know, besides your classes at Atelier Dojo, do you have any workshops or any cool stuff that’s going on that you’d like to promote?

Jennifer Balkan: 1:24:59

Yeah. Yeah, so some something new and exciting is that I am involved with a brand new gallery here in Austin, Texas, and similar to our school name, we call it Gallery Dojo, but it is independent of the school itself, so it’s a new endeavor spawned by Denise Fulton, and we will be the gallery will be featuring great contemporary representational artists from all around and includes a handful of us over at the school, so we are having sort of a grand opening in October, and I will have brand new work in there, so that’s exciting, and yeah, I’ve been, you know, I took, I took a some much needed time off after 20 after 2024 when I had two shows, two solo shows, which were very exciting, one at the Wausau Museum of Contemporary Art, and another at a gallery in Smithville, that’s not far from Austin, and, and I needed a break, I needed such a break. Oh my gosh, I didn’t realize I did, so I.. the last, you know, I can’t believe now it’s 2020 26 but the.. the last couple, I guess, or whatever year and a half or so, I have been drawing and painting as much or more than ever, but just like for paint and drawing sake, and so, and just kind of not knowing what’s next, and being okay with that, and so now I’m like, okay, I am finally like thinking about new work and new ideas, instead of just responding, which I needed to just respond, I needed to just respond in paint or in graphite or whatever to something out there, and now it’s like, alright, now I can think about creating from from inside me, so so that will be part of the show in October, and, and I do have a workshop also coming up. I haven’t done that in a few years, since since Dojo Academy. I’ve been teaching exclusively with that, and so I have my first independent workshop, a three-day summer workshop at the end of July at Atelier Dojo on harmonious color in an oil painting as we paint a figure from a limited palette, so that is what’s going on.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:27:53

That’s exciting.

Jennifer Balkan: 1:27:55

If someone wants to see more of your work, where can they go? So I’ve got my website, which is my name, Jennifer balkin.com J E N N I F E R B A L K A n.com and I also have I post regularly on Instagram at Jennifer Balkin, and a lot of you know my day to day whatevers are on Instagram, whereas more completed works are on my website, but lots of studies and stuff are I share regularly, so those are the main places.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:32

Perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Jennifer, for the very engaging conversation. I think we could definitely go on for hours and hours if we were left to our own devices, so it’s a bit of a shame to cut it short, short, quote unquote. Thank you so much for giving us some of your time to share your, your wisdom with us.

Jennifer Balkan: 1:28:55

Thank you, Laura. It’s been such a pleasure, and really nice to connect, connecting with you too, yeah, yeah. Look forward to more. Yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:29:06

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

Join our next FASO Show Live!
https://register.faso.com/live-guest

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On today’s episode we sat down with Sarkis Antikajian. Born in 1933 in Amman, Jordan, Sarkis discovered French Impressionism and Van Gogh as a teenager — a spark that never left him. He immigrated to the United States at 25, spent 35 years as a pharmacist building the financial independence to paint full-time, and retired in 1994 at 62 to finally live his dream. He is now 93, and still paints every day. Deeply shaped by Van Gogh’s persistence, Sarkis believes in loving the process over the outcome, staying curious at every stage of a career, and painting freely without chasing validation or market trends. He has worked across watercolor, acrylic, oil, figurative, landscape, and abstraction — always seeking new ways to see.His advice to artists: find another source of income so financial fear doesn’t limit your creativity, paint often and on inexpensive materials, and stop waiting for anyone else’s approval to make the work that’s truly yours.

Sarkis’ FASO site:
sarkisantikajianfineart.com/

Sarkis’ PBS Oregon Art Beat Video:
https://www.pbs.org/video/oregon-art-beat-painter-sarkis-antikajian/

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Transcript:

Sarkis Antikajian: 0:00

And then I did that, and now I’m 93 years old. I still paint, and that’s my life, like I always say, it’s a way of life, you know. That’s the way it is. Somebody says, an artist said it’s like breathing, you have to, if you don’t breathe, you’ll be dead, and with me, if I didn’t paint, I’d be very unhappy. I had other interests, like sculpt sculpting.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:36

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe the Fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. On today’s episode, we sat down with Sarkis and Tocagian, born in 1933 in Amman, Jordan. Sarkis discovered French Impressionism and Van Gogh as a teenager, a spark that never left him. He immigrated to the United States at 25 spent 35 years as a pharmacist, building the financial independence to paint full time, and retired in 1994 at 62 to finally live his dream. He is now 93 and still paints to this day. Deeply shaped by Van Gogh’s persistence, Sarkis believes in loving the process over the outcome, staying curious at every stage of a career, and painting freely without chasing validation or market trends. He has worked across watercolor, acrylic, oil, figurative landscape, and abstraction always seeking new ways to see. His advice to artists is this: find another source of income, so financial fear doesn’t limit your creativity. Paint often and on inexpensive materials, and stop waiting for anyone else’s approval to make the work that’s truly yours. Welcome, Sarkis, to the FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Sarkis Antikajian: 2:03

Good, thank you for inviting me, Laura.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:07

Of course, I am so happy, and I feel so privileged to have you on the podcast, because you are truly a lifelong painter, and I feel like you have experienced so, so, so much, and your work is so absolutely beautiful, so I’m excited to be able to sit down and talk to you about your life and your paintings, but before we dive into that, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Sarkis Antikajian: 2:35

Well, I was born in 1933 in Amman, Jordan, and I came to the United States in I was 25 years old, and my idea at that time was to study pharmacy, so that I’ll support myself eventually. and at some point become an artist. How did that come about? Is when I was 15 years old, discovered the French Impressionist, a French Impressionist book on and post-impressionist, and then next to it, there was a novel, Lust for Life, about Vincent Van Gogh, and I was just, just fascinated by the whole situation, and I couldn’t figure out how there’ll be such beautiful landscape, these people, you know, these artists painted, so at any rate I became a pharmacist. Eventually, I met my wife, Karen, at the University of New Mexico. And then, when we graduated, we got married, and we lived in New Mexico. We worked in New Mexico for about five years. Part of it is in Farmington, part of it in Gallup, but in Gallup I was sort of, or we both were sort of unhappy because of it wasn’t the type of subject matter that I would love to paint. It had nothing to do with all that beautiful landscape that the artist, French Impressionist, painted, so I just, we decided that somehow we’ll have to find a greener pasture, a greener state. So we found Oregon, and we moved to Oregon, and I thought I was in paradise. We got to about Eugene, around Eugene. We said, okay, somewhere here we’re going to have, I mean, spend the rest of our lives, and that’s where I’m going to become an artist or painter, and but. Then I ended up being a pharmacist for 35 years because I wanted to be independent somehow or another I want to find a way to be independent so that I could be an artist and and since that time, all through that time, I kept thinking of ways how to do it, and eventually I found ways to get independent, and I retired in 1994 I was 62 years old, early social security guy, and since then, after that I had this wonderful new world. Just I had to paint all day long. Sometimes I went crazy painting twice a day, two paintings a day, and at that time I was, we settled down, and just, you know, that that’s what I wanted to do the rest of it, and then I did that, and now I’m 93 years old, I still paint, and that’s my life, like I always say, it’s a way of life, you know, that’s the way it is. Somebody says an artist said it’s like breathing, you have to, if you don’t breathe, you’ll be dead, and with me, if I didn’t paint, I’ll be very unhappy. I had other interests, like sculpt sculpting, and, and writing. I love to write. I’m not a writer. I don’t send my whatever it is, poems. I just do it for my own enjoyment, but that is nothing, because I could take it or leave it. Painting is not that I talk about it, I think about it, I almost dream about it. See, and that’s that’s my life. Wow,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:18

it sounds like a very happy life to be able to paint,

Sarkis Antikajian: 7:23

actually, when you think about it, when I was young, I used to envision in my mind what type of painting I would be painting in my mind, and believe it or not, sometimes I think, okay, I reached that stage, that’s what I wanted to do, and that’s what I’m doing. So it’s a circle just going around the circle, and I ended with this. So how many years I have, it doesn’t matter. See, now I sketch every day just for my own enjoyment, just to be part of the painting establishment, I just, you know, I want to do something with art,

Laura Arango Baier: 8:09

yeah, yeah. And then, when you were, when you first saw the French Impressionists as a teenager, did you, did that inspire you to start drawing and painting then, or did you wait until later.

Sarkis Antikajian: 8:21

Well, when that happened, I started drawing. I, I had a pad, just with, you know, what called school, you know, just lines, just for writing, but I take that pad with a pencil, that’s all we had, pencil, and, and this pad or paper, and I’ll draw my sisters, I draw the dog we had, I draw these trees, just we had one or two bushes over there, or something, and I do that, if there were chickens, I’ll draw those, so I mean, I just went crazy, just growing, that’s all. I had no paint. We didn’t have paint, actually. I’ve never seen a painter at that time, or heard of a painter, or I’ve never seen a painting in real life, or even a print of a painting. So I was just just going with what these French impressions did, and especially Van Gogh, you know, when I saw his self-portrait, I said, “My gosh, I know this guy. You know, it just hit me like I.. I’m familiar, I know him, and reading his letters was something, something else, actually, later on, many years later, I still have his three volumes of letters, and I read towards the whole thing twice. Sometimes I tell my friends, have you read Van Gogh’s letters, the three volume, the. Act like what kind of crazy idea is this? Who cares about the Van Gogh? You see, I mean, anymore nowadays people, I mean, you would think they are insulting them to go back to, you know, as if so, but in reality it’s amazing. I’ve never seen an artist, or heard of an artist that you know almost everything about him through his letters, his successes, his tribulations, his problems that he had, everything, and that’s amazing, because you know, if you look at money, you think, my gosh, he’s he had God-given talent, and all of a sudden he did all this fascinating stuff, just like that. You see, you don’t really know, did he really become as a.. did he.. was he an amateur at one time? Was he a student? You don’t know anything about any of them, but you see the great art that they do with him, not so he was drawing for years, trying to learn how to draw, whether it’s a pencil, whether it’s this charcoal, I mean, he was just doing his atmosphere, and that’s what really inspired me, so I mean, what.. what else I could say, I guess.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:33

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s.. it’s.. it’s a really good point that we, when we see an artist’s work, especially from the past, we only see their best work. We don’t see the work that they burned or that they threw away because it wasn’t good enough. We just see them as these perfect people who made these incredible pieces. So, I think having that insight about Van Gogh is really important, because it goes to show that it takes work, and it takes time, and it takes years to reach a point where maybe you’re satisfied with your work, because I feel like no artist is fully, totally satisfied with their work,

Sarkis Antikajian: 12:13

and yeah, and most of us, at least I know I am, or everybody, maybe all others, we are insecure. We are always trying to evaluate what other people’s perception is about our art, whatever it is we do today. I mean, even if we say, “Well, we don’t care, that’s not true. Every one of us wonders, what do people think now with this Van Gogh business? Now he didn’t really care. He painted grass, just clumps of grass, not once, 345, times. Now, who would want to do that, see, and who would want to buy it? He didn’t really care. The idea is he wanted to paint that, paint the grass, and they’re wonderful. And so, what that means, his heart was in painting, and that should be the way with all of us see in art, in other words, forget about all the selling part. Yes, we want to sell. We want people to love our paintings. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. We just want somebody to give us praise of some sort, you know, tell us how good we are doing, but basically if a person is an artist, like the last thing we need to do really is worry about that, like one guy said, once you do that, you are defeating yourself. Once you start thinking, when are you going to make money, when are you going to get rich? Forget it. Or, in many cases, if you think you, what you are doing is such hot, such good stuff that’s going to last for 200 years, forget it. It’s maybe, maybe not, but almost most of the time it might not be, because there are 1000s of people doing the same thing, are artists, 1000s of people try it, and you are one of them. So, the best thing you can do, love what you are doing, I mean, love not what you’re doing, love the process. That’s where the thing, it’s not the outcome, it’s the process, and that’s what I enjoy, the process. That’s why I paint now. I don’t need to paint, really. I should sit over there, watch TV, but I paint because I love the process. Says I love I paint, I am an oil painter now, or I was for years, but what I do now is watercolor. So, why do I do that? Because it’s fascinating. You put two colors next to each other and they mix in the most, just like a miracle, colors come about, there’s no other medium does that, now most of the watercolors that I see, they’re all glazes and this and that and that, by the time they finish with that, it’s a great painting, they try to emulate other medium, see, that’s not the idea, as far as I’m concerned. If you stick with what the medium is, but all painting, I was both.. I started the watercolor, actually, then I did acrylic until I met this artist, Russian artist Sergey Bongard. How did I meet him? I saw his 19 eight four. I saw his magazine, I say magazine, I think Southwest maybe, or one of those magazines, and they had these paintings at that time. I said, my gosh, that’s the type of painting that I love, so what attracted me about them is they were they were representation paintings, but they were not super realistic paintings. You look at the apple, well, it doesn’t have beginning or end, but nevertheless it’s a delicious apple, what he painted, but it just, and that’s I said, okay, that’s what I love to do, and that really had had some kind of it inspired me to say, okay, that’s good, you could do that with anything or any other subject matter, so when I went, when I came to Oregon. Actually, the first thing I did is join art associations and art centers, and I’d go paint twice, once a week, one day a week, paint, and Fridays. On Fridays, I grew from the nude, and I did that for many, many, many years. Same place I had the key of the play of the art association. They depended on me. I’ve never missed any of it, and I did that. How did I do that? You see, the trouble is, at that time I was doing these figures, figurative work. That’s what this open studio was, figure, and we sort of chose these people, the models. What I wanted the models to be just like what they are. What do they wear? Not a costume, just what they wear. What do they wear normally? How do they have? How does their hair look like? Don’t plaster it with, you know, just make it look good. Forget it. How, if I see you in the street, how would I see you? If it’s torn jeans, go for it, if it’s oversized boots, shoes, go for it. See if you want purple hair. Why not? So this is the type of people I love to paint. Not sometimes I see these artists who are just beautiful, beautiful people, whether it’s men or women, most of them were women. I started thinking, where are these people? I can see them, I don’t see them in the grocery store, I don’t see them walking in the street. Who are they? I’m not interested in that type of painting, so I can’t wait, we were painting these people, and then there was no, you know, we didn’t have a, let’s say what’s called light on them, special, you know, effect, or this or that, we just stood about five, six guy people, men and women, and we paint, so what’s good for one, it’s not good for another, and that was that, wherever you are, and that’s it. You just do the best you can, and we have three hours, and I learned how to paint as quickly as possible. You see this painting behind me, just three hours, actually it’s two and a half hours, because the guy takes 15 minutes break twice, whatever, and that’s it. All my paintings, and actually, this is a small.. I mean, this is 24 by 30. Now, I used to paint 30 by 40, same three hours, but doing that, I was. Part of it was almost like watercolor, it was oil, except that, like watercolor splashes of paint, or loose, you know, just like watercolor, and then when it comes to areas like the face or something like that, then I get it, little bit more opaque, you know, and more and more and more until I get it done in three hours, and I never touch these paintings again. That’s it. Works, they work fine, they don’t work, it’s good enough. And I learned how to paint fast, whether it’s landscape or still life, same with the still life of all everything I painted from life, and I painted in my studio. Now, from life, the idea, as far as I’m concerned, everybody’s crazy about plein air painting, which is wonderful. Now, some of us want to be outside, regardless, like fishermen. They could fish, they could buy the fish cheaper than spending all this money and standing outside waiting to catch a fish. So, with clean air, some people do that, but the idea, I think, behind it is to learn how to see how to see nuances in color, which you really don’t see in a picture, in the photo, you have to look at it and see it, but I think personally, I think if you have experience knowing how things affect each other, one item, one thing, one tree next to another tree, different color, they sort of affect each other. Every one of them depends, the color depends on something else next to it. If you understand that, see, most of us, we don’t see that, we look at it like lectures. Okay, we see the whole thing, and that’s it. But if you, if we study it, and that’s the idea behind plein air, is to how to learn, how to do, how to see that. Now, some people, they go out, but they do what they know, it’s not what they are really experiencing, whether they are not really focusing on what what they are seeing, because every minute is different, and and they are not trying to learn from that. In my mind, I think if you learn plein air, and you learn what it means when you put one color next to another color, or let’s say one vase, red vase next to a green vase. What happens now if you understand that you could be sitting in your own studio and painting paintings that people would think you painted them out outside. It all depends what kind of experience did you have painting outdoors to do that, but nevertheless it’s wonderful to be outdoors painting at any time, assuming then you can put up with whether it’s cold or rainy or whatever, and I did that when it was freezing, when it was raining, so it was a great experience, and I still do it, and our home over here, we, I made it more like, like an oasis amidst, you know, just fields of gray of rye grass, and I had such beautiful areas to paint flowers and trees. All I planted all of the stuff just for the idea that I would paint. I don’t have to run all over the country, all over the world, actually looking for the perfect subject matter, and talking about that. It’s people say everything is paintable, yes, but how do you paint it? That’s where the point is, that we go back to Van Gogh, because the clumps of grass. How do you paint the clumps of grass? And that’s what he did. It didn’t do once, twice, five times, and that’s the idea. I think it’s looking for the perfect model or the perfect scenery. It has to have a building in there, it has to have little water, it has to have some trees. It’s a perfect thing. All you need to do, just get your oil paints and. To go ahead and paint them well. How do you paint something over and over and over? The place around our place, I mean, the landscape around our home, just around in our air, in our place. We live on a six acre property, but most of it is just close to our house, around our house, and I painted year after year, and under different conditions, climate conditions, and I was never getting bored, because I look at it differently every time. I look at part of it, not all of it. I look at sections, bits and pieces. One minute here, one minute there, I could see things I’ve never seen before. I pass by something, I say, my gosh, I really didn’t see that before. Now I see it, and I’ve been living here for, I know, I think 6870 years, or whatever, the same place, but I see things that I’ve never seen before, and I keep painting them. I paint them in different media, I paint them under different times of the day, so I mean, you could be a painter, and you don’t have to really run all over the country or all over the world, you know, to find looking for some, yeah, that’s great to really find new things, it’s wonderful, but basically all you need to do, look around you, and if you are really crazy about the process of painting, it doesn’t make a big difference what you are painting. Just get excited about doing it, and see how you could be enthusiastic about you. Get enthusiastic about doing it, if you do the same thing, like you know how to do it over and over and over and over, you are bound to get bored, and in my mind, boredom is a killer for the artist, and as long as you just keep, I keep thinking, really, what kept me going all these years, loving painting is the newness, something new, looking for something new all the time. So I am in an experimental mode all the time, I am in a learning mode all the time I’m always learning in one of these questions you had. See, in reality, you are learning all through your life as an artist. You can never say, ‘Hey, I know how to do this. Why I’m not, I shouldn’t be worried about it. I know how to do it, but in reality, that’s not true. If you are an artist, everything is new, everything is a problem to solve. It’s a solving problem, solving all the time. Every time you put a brush on the on the canvas, you change the whole thing for good or for worse, one or the other. All it takes is just one brushstroke, and one brushstroke leads to another before you know it. We repainted the painting. What was in the landscape might count up to be something else, you see, because you start from one end, you end up somewhere else. So I think it’s it’s learning process, if a person really thinks about it as a learning process, that you are a student all your life, and even now I’m a student, imagine I really cannot say I really know how to paint, I don’t, because everything is, is I’m looking for something new, something that I haven’t been doing I all my life, that I could repeat it. If I’m able to repeat it, it means it’s I’m done. That’s the point. That’s the time I need to quit. You see, because that’s the time you either get bored or you say, so what’s your use, you know, why do I, why I’m doing this, but if you are always in this learning situation and always looking at something, a new way of doing things, then there’s no end to it, you could do it forever and ever and ever, and you’re happy talking about happy. If I don’t paint, I’m unhappy. Now, if I don’t sculpt, I don’t care. If I don’t write, it doesn’t matter, bother me, because I’m not - I don’t call myself a writer, but paint. Painting, yes. If I don’t paint, unless something happens, if you know, but if I don’t paint, I’m unhappy, and that’s something I always try to avoid. I want to be satisfied in my life, and the only way I do that is painting. painting or doing something in painting or thinking or sketching, sketching, you know, you start thinking, what makes a good painting, what makes a memorable painting. It just amazes me how we look at these wonderful drawings, just fabulous, but then you see one line from, let’s say, Picasso, or somebody, he draws a dave in one line, one end to the other, it’s a line, personally I see it, I still remember it after many years. You see, why is that? What makes me remember that? See, it’s just a line from one end to the other. He just made a dave, so that’s what I think the art is. What, which painting that you look at, like I go to a museum, believe me. After I finish, I remember one painting or two paintings, that’s it. All the rest of it is gone now. Those two paintings must be what sort of luck do something for me, and I remember them year after year, after year, after year. I may not remember the museum, but I remember the paintings, so I think I’m talking too much.

Laura Arango Baier: 31:58

No, not at all. I think you’ve, you’ve made a lot of really excellent points, I think, particularly the importance of approaching any subject with curiosity, like you’re saying, like, how would I paint this, or how could I express this, kind of like how Van Gogh was painting grass and a bunch of different ways, trying to understand what he’s painting, and I think that’s, yeah, that’s a good point about the importance of not, like you said earlier, obsessing over the outcome, and just enjoying the actual process, allowing yourself to sit with all the fun little parts, and I’ve experienced when I make a painting, I get to one point and I’m bored, and I always wondered why, and I feel that what you’re mentioning, it makes a lot of sense. It’s like, oh, I’ve done this before, of course I’m bored.

Sarkis Antikajian: 32:56

Yeah, you know, I tell really people to see the thing is love artists, or you know, in the beginning, let’s say, trying to learn how to art. I tell them, just do love paintings, love many, many paintings, and do the same thing again, again. It doesn’t mean I’m not saying when I say that I’m not saying do it. Do the same thing over the same way. You could change the medium, you could change the color, you could put it under this, you could put it outside, you could put it inside. Just change the thing, but do the same one, and you do it over and over and over. You don’t have to go all the time scratching your head, figure out what I, what you’re going to paint. You see, it doesn’t matter what it is, it could be just a cup or anything, you know. It doesn’t make much difference, but you see that the thing is, many, many, unfortunately, many people who paint are worrying about how to do the perfect painting. Well, there is no such thing, and if you do that, like the guy says, you are defeating yourself. It’s not, it’s not such a, such a idea to think that you are going to have a make a masterpiece again. Forget about that. You see, you paint and see exactly what you are doing, and, and where you are going, if you keep trying to change things the way you want it. Again, there’s another thing, painting, you see, for me to be able to do something like. Something exactly doesn’t appeal to me. I don’t know if you are a technician. Yeah, love people love technicians. They love to paintings that they look like just humans. I mean, just beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Well, for me, I don’t know. I as respect these people, I admire them for their technical ability, but if it doesn’t do, if I forget about it after I leave the room, then it doesn’t do any good. It doesn’t do me any good now? Sometimes even a kid is just a child does something. It appeals to me more than a painting in the museum. Why something about it? There’s that freedom. They do it because they are doing it. They’re not worried about somebody else looking at it. They don’t care. They are just doing it because they want their love to do it, and they do it their own way. So, in other words, a painting that really a person just keeps at it, keeps at it until it comes completely beautifully polished. Well, it doesn’t appeal to me now. Maybe that’s my weakness, maybe, but it doesn’t appeal to me. I love a painting that it doesn’t make much difference. I mean, technically speaking, maybe it’s not such a good painting, maybe it has all kinds of defects. It doesn’t matter to me. How do I see the whole thing? What does it look like? Does it give the impression of the person or the thing? Does it give the essence of the thing rather than surface polished wonderful thing, that well, okay, maybe everybody likes that because they, you know, they admire the technical ability, but well, again, it just, you know, maybe that’s maybe I, maybe I do that as a watch card, because see, I painted all my life quickly, maybe I just want to justify that, maybe I’m making, making a point out of that. Well, in reality, that’s what I like to do, you see, it’s not matter of whether because it, I cannot, it would bore me if I did it, if I worked on something day in day out, I just cannot do it, but again, maybe that has to do with personality, maybe, or maybe because I wanted to paint a lot and I want to learn a lot, and that’s the only way you could learn by painting a lot, just simply sitting over there with a small brush and dabbing at the painting forever and ever and ever. I’m not so sure how you could learn from that. The idea is there’s another thing, love people, love practical students, they go buy these expensive linen, expensive stuff. Well, I tell you, if I was going to paint on something that’s going to cost me $100 I wouldn’t want to do that, because I want to paint on something that I could paint it, if I don’t like it, throw it away. See, period, that’s it. Now, if I end up doing a masterpiece, which is very unlikely, but suppose I did. Suppose by miracle, see, I did. If somebody really loves to loves it, and they think it’s valuable painting a bit. You did protect it. Latrec, I’m sure you know who Le Creek is. Well, he painted on cardboard. You think he cared? He worried about the longevity of his paintings. No, I love his work, and he just did it on cardboard. He didn’t do it on fancy material, he just did it. Most of it is just pencil, chalk, whatever it is, no, whatever he could find. So, in our , why waste, why put some kind of constraint over what you are doing? Why not just do something that it’s not precious? Now it might get to be precious for you, because maybe you could stumble on something. Hey, all my life I wanted to do this and. The a it was one brush, I managed to do it. Maybe you cannot repeat it, but that’s okay. Try it again. You see, chances are you won’t be able to. You see, there’s always something by accident, like one guy says everybody, what this guy says. Everybody does a masterpiece, you see, once in a lifetime or something like that, you know. But the idea is, how to be able to do paintings that you, that make you feel good. Maybe it doesn’t make somebody else happy, or maybe somebody else won’t appreciate it, but that doesn’t matter. It’s once you do it, you feel good about it, and you go to the next thing you want to do, or get yourself excited about doing, and, like I said, you know, boredom, if you, if you are good at it, technically speaking, and you can repeat it over and over, like I always say, you know, like making a pair of shoes. If you can make one pair of shoes, you can make 1000, but not so with painting. You cannot, even if you repeat yourself, you cannot. You try to do the same thing again, you cannot do that. See, but if you have a process of doing the same thing without trying to learn, you might end up getting bored after a while, and some people manage to do that. That’s okay. Another thing, you know, like this branding thing, I’m against, you know, everybody says, well, you need to be branded, don’t jump from one thing to another, stay with one thing, if you are portrait, just stay with that, if you are all painter, just stay with that. I am against that personally, I’m against that, the reason I say that, because one thing teaches you do something else, you just can’t learn from one to the other. Now, when I was painting watercolor, and then painting acrylics, when I took this Sergey Bongards workshop in Rexford, Idaho, for two weeks, I thought I was just wonderful, great thing that would happen to me. Well, he had about 60 students in this workshop, and I was just a beginner, and I thought, because his brochure, whatever it is, said, “Oh, you could, you could paint in any other, any medium, supposedly. Okay, so I took my watercolor, because that’s what I was painting, and he, and on my, on our lunch hour, I’ll sit over there, and, and they had, you know, his helpers had still life setups all around a barn like buildings for students to paint, so I’ll sit over there on my lunch hours, eat my sandwich, and paint watercolors, a watercolor blotch from one of these still lives setups. One day I looked around, you know. This was maybe second, third day, fourth day. I felt like somebody was standing behind me. There was nobody. Everybody went somewhere else, you see. They offered them to eat their lunch or do whatever. Lo and behold, it was, it was Sergey Bongard standing there. So he looked at it, he says, “Good. He says,”Then he looked at me. He says,”You want to become an artist? I said, “Yeah, sure. He says, “Well, tomorrow go get some oil paints, buy this kind of the size, 20 by 2416 by 20, whatever. Actually, 20 by 2424 by 30. Buy these brushes, buy this paint, and paint oil paintings for the rest of the workshop. And he says, if he’s told me, if you learn how to paint oil well, you could paint any other medium if you, if you want any other medium, but learn how to paint in oils. So that’s when I started painting in oils, and I did that for the rest of it, and I painted even his workshop, painted figures, people with all, with, although I haven’t really used oil, see, I was doing watercolors, so I mean, it was, so I mean, really, it’s just a marvel of what leads to. One thing leads to something else, and inspiration comes probably from nowhere. If I didn’t see this guy’s painting, you know, images of his paintings, this magazine, I wouldn’t have known who he is. I just happened by luck to see that now, what he did is you ask about inspiration. He inspired me, but not the way one would think. It’s not the way he didn’t teach me how to paint. His demonstrations where he painted a still life from life in he had some kind of setup, but the figures, if he painted the figure from a pencil sketch, figure pencil sketch of another artist, Russian artist, but he turned that pencil sketch into this beautiful figure, colorful, lovely, some Russian peasant of some sort. Then, for the landscape, he had his pencil drawing of some kind of a rainy something, some kind of something with pencil. It’s just a drawing. He stuck it over there on the easel, and he painted this wonderful moody landscape. So, in other words, we didn’t really learn from that. When I was giving workshops, I gave off workshops, and I’ll do a painting from beginning to end. Not only that, I left these participants to ask me anytime, stop me anytime, and I kept talking what I’m doing now with Sergey Bongard, you can’t even breathe, let alone talk, you see, you can’t ask any question, nothing until he takes a break, then he turns around, he says, okay, well, by that time you better ask an important question, not this crazy question. Otherwise, you, you get reprimanded on that. For some, you know, I mean, you better know what it is that you are going to ask, but he won’t allow anybody to, you know, ask. But nevertheless, what did he teach me? Really, he taught me what it takes to become an artist, that’s what he said, that’s what he nowadays. You just don’t become an artist without working at it, without really having that way of life that you really chose. It’s not something that you know, you say, “Okay, I’ll take it or leave it. I’ll do this and find out if somebody would like it. Somebody might not like it. It’s not that way. It’s a.. it’s a battle throughout, and you do it because you know you want to do it. You have to do it,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:22

I. that’s beautiful. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The Faso Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey. This is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 18th of June with our special guest, Timothy Tyler. You can find the signup link in the show notes, and that’s I love that you really emphasize how it’s so important to allow yourself to be as free as a child in that sense, right? To, oh, I just want to paint this flower, why? Because, yes, you know, there really doesn’t have to be a deeper reason, and I think when we become adults, we’re so focused on having to do things in a certain way, and oh, well, I should only do this one subject matter forever, because I know I’m good at it, even though I kind of want to paint ducks, for example, like I feel like a lot of artists put themselves in this little cage of, okay, I have to fit in here, and then they wonder why maybe they’re not happy, or they, they have like desires to paint something else, but they feel like, oh, I can’t, because my gallery maybe doesn’t like that. That’s, you know, that’s

Sarkis Antikajian: 50:01

right, that’s right. They are afraid, they’re afraid the gallery won’t like it. They’re afraid they think they are going downhill. You see, if all of a sudden they are doing something little different, they think, oh boy, this person is just, you know, he’s not making it. You see, in reality, that person may be going in, has a different trajectory, a different way, he’s trying, or he or she trying to do something different, maybe, but somebody else might think they are going downhill, that’s not true, and really, this branding thing, I think, puts a, you know, it’s you just can’t get out of it after a while, you’re stuck with it, you just can’t get out of it, because you feel like if you got out of it, failure, so you end up doing the same thing over and over and over, and maybe you can make a living that way, maybe because everybody expects the same thing, expects you know, lucky, if you are, if you play it the same way all the time. Well, maybe people expect that maybe they don’t know that all your paintings are like that. If you paint something in a gray, just all gray, gray, gray, okay? Maybe you like it. Lot of people like that. See, talking about that, though. You see, the thing is talking about color. If it wasn’t for color, I’d never be a painter. I love color. Now, personally, I think of myself about an old-fashioned person, but when it comes to color, I’m not. And, but the thing is, lot of people don’t like color, they want to have something which fits their homes, if they want to buy it. In my mind, it should be a painting, more like an accent, like a vase in the corner, completely different. Everything else is gray, and this vase is an accent, so is a painting. The painting should be, should be an accent, some something over there. You look at it, my gosh, it’s just wonderful. But if you make that gray, also like the couch, or whatever it is, then it just defeats the purpose. So, I mean, it’s just, again, I don’t really know, I don’t know what I’m talking about, it maybe is, maybe that’s not, I shouldn’t be talking like that, but I keep thinking, really, the idea is, do just go with what you are, what you want to do and forget about what other people want you to do and and that is very difficult because you see of the insecurities we have and let’s face it we want people to love us we want people to love whatever it is we’re doing, you see, the paintings we’re doing, because after all, you know, I mean, you start thinking, my gosh, you know, like sometimes people ask me, what do you do, I’m a painter, they think I’m a house painter, sudden I turned around and say, well, no, it’s art painting, you see. Oh, okay. You know, oh, it loves to sit over there. They tell me, sit out and look out the window, you know, there, and just play over there with some pencil or whatever it is. Okay, I just don’t say anything. If that’s the case, that’s alright. Do it if you want, do it if you want to have fun. Go ahead and do it. They really don’t know what a painter goes through, and it’s not a bad thing, but it’s the reason I’m saying it. Go, he goes through, or she goes through, because it’s a battle in our, it’s a learning process, you don’t, you know, there’s no way you could say, “Hey, I know how to do this, and I could repeat it as many times as I want. It’s an impossibility. Every brush stroke could really ruin the painting, could change everything. When I’m painting in like these figures, I’m all over the place. I never in one place, even in a minute, see, I’m just doing all over because I know darn well something would lead to something else. Sometimes people would tell me, why did you put this. Thing over there, you see, what did what made you do that? I really don’t know. Something just told me do it, and that’s it. That’s why I did it. You see, sometimes it ruins the whole thing, sometimes it doesn’t, sometimes makes it that’s what you want ends up the type of painting you want,

Laura Arango Baier: 55:26

yeah, but then how can someone overcome that pressure of oh, I should be painting this, how can someone just allow themselves to be free from the pressure,

Sarkis Antikajian: 55:42

you know, when I started painting for three four years, I never showed it to anybody, not even to my wife or kids, nobody. I didn’t show it to anybody, and in reality, the idea is to overcome that, I is not to, in a way, not not to look for. There are a lot of people, for example. It just amazes me. I have even friends. If you look at their painting before you know it, they give you a whole speech about the painting. Well, as far as I’m concerned, it is what it is. That’s it. This is that’s what you see. You like it good, you don’t like it good. Now, the idea is, I think, is to paint with the idea that you are not really doing a perfect painting, never, because you have to be in a sketching in an experimental mood mode all the time. If you are not in an experimental mode, you are doing what you know all the time, and if you are doing what you know, you are not going anywhere, and it doesn’t matter. Maybe that’s time, maybe people pat you on the back, you see, because once you switch anything, chances are people would look at it like yesterday, before, or a few days ago, or yesterday, actually, or some. We had, we were in a gallery, they had my paintings, one of my paintings, and on the bottom there was some, which I had some red, something red, reddish, so this person tells me, “Oh, of course, they haven’t seen that many of my paintings. That’s trouble again, if you don’t see many of somebody’s paintings, and if you see something, you think, well, this person is doing something different when reality is not so. So I can’t wait. When he saw this red star, so he says, “You know, well, that’s why did you do that? You see, well, this was in a grassy area. It’s just very grassy area, and it’s a low, low, what you call it, low land. There’s water and there’s brambles, you know, just blackberries. Well, these were blackberries at the time. At certain time, the leaves were reddish, and that’s what I saw, and that’s what I was trying to emphasize, the impression of the place, and because, see, normally they see my maybe my figure paintings and they are wonderful, how come you painted this like that? Well, because that’s what it is. See, I can’t do something else if that’s what it, that’s what I’m painting, and it just amazed me. I said, okay, you know that that’s all right, and the person is mind you, as a painter, also, you know, who said that. Well, okay, you know, but normally you don’t really take a painting start wondering, why does a person, what did the person do that, what did he put, why did he or she put this color in there, for what reason, chances are intuitively the artist did that because the feeling is to do that is to put that in there, and chances are it works, but the thing is about, about how to, how to avoid getting in this insecurity situation, I think if you, if you are, let’s say, worried about something about the painting, just leave it alone, you don’t need to even to show it to anybody or. Are if you want to show it to PC, and normally let’s say my wife, I don’t show her a painting unless I’m unhappy with it, she might look at it and she says, well, I think something bothered me about here, she doesn’t know what it is, but something’s bothering me. Okay, that’s a good thing to hear. You see, and then I start looking at it. Sure enough, I might, because she’s looking at it from different point of view, she’s not looking at it from my side of it, and chances are with brush stroke I could fix whatever it is that was bothering her, maybe, or maybe I just forget about it, but again, I think the idea is if you don’t want people to be critical, all this critique stuff, lot of people get in the critique stuff, is you know where they join group of people and they critique each other’s. I don’t really go for that, because I don’t want to critique anybody’s painting, and I don’t want anybody else to critique my painting, because really I’m doing it. I’m the one who’s doing it, good or bad, because somebody is.. I mean, it’s a subjective thing. What’s good for me might not be good for you or for somebody else. And you see, we could never see it’s not a type of business that chances are many would like it. It’s not when I say something. Well, I mean it’s not such a job where it’s a profitable job where you could do a lot of people and people would love to have it. It’s not people have to love it, people come over here to the gallery, my gallery, out of the blue, you see. I don’t know, David, they find me, maybe from my website, FASO website, maybe, or maybe from the newsletter I used to send for 15 years. I used to send newsletter, and and they come, and if they buy a painting for $3,000 Let’s say I started thinking now, why would a person do that? You see, mind you, I almost tried to talk them out of it. Sometimes I do believe it, and I tell them, I tell my God, you need a, you need a painting like you need a hole in your head. You see, just forget about it, see, I mean, they think I’m crazy, see, but, but in a way, the reason I price it like that, because galleries price it like that, so I can’t do anything else. As far as I’m concerned, that’s another thing I tell friends, never give anybody a painting unless they tell you we cannot live without it, if they say I cannot live without it, I’d love to have this, then give it to them, but don’t gift anybody a painting, give, give them a vase that way they could break it, they don’t like, and say the dog broke it, you see, and get away, but if they, if you give them a painting, they are stuck with it, and if they don’t like it, who knows what’s going to happen to it eventually, probably goodwill or sometime place, you know, and get rid of it. Don’t do that, I tell them, just, just don’t give anybody a gift, a painting, because, see, you don’t really know, they might tell you they okay, yeah, thank you, but they might hate it, and they are stuck with it, with the painting, it’s not something they could get rid of, they hide it, they cannot hide it, they have to put it on the wall, they have to put it someplace, because you are their friend. I mean, you are really causing love, anguish the other side for them. So, but love people do that, I guess. They give you know, you know, they think they’re doing somebody a favor. You see, they give paintings, you know, as a gift, you yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:23

that’s very wise. It’s definitely a burden on the other person if they receive something that they don’t really like, because then it’s like, oh, oh no, yeah, it’s a very, it’s very good advice. And as for, you know, removing the pressure, I think. Yeah, you’re totally not showing it to anybody is great, because I think you’re right. A lot of the, especially today with the internet and everything, I think a lot of artists are, and me included, because, of course, I’m part of this age where we have this feeling of, oh, if I make something, I have to show it to someone. Or I feel this pressure of I need, like you said, maybe it’s like the validation that, oh, you did a great job, pat on the back, or oh, this isn’t so good, and then I feel bad, right? So I think, yeah, removing that pressure of being observed, I think

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:05:18

that’s unfortunately this Facebook and places like that, if you put your painting, chances are somebody might remark, which is not a good remark. Let’s say, and if you have thick skin, or whatever, you just don’t have that, then you’re unhappy hearing something like that, so I don’t know that such a good thing, you know, to do that. I like the newsletter I used to send for 15 years. I quit doing that just about a year ago, I think, or maybe months ago. I would put paintings in it that I have done that month. Let’s say I sent the newsletter on the first of each month, but I’ll put in it images of the paintings that I did the month before, and I will talk about paintings, I’ll talk about art. It wasn’t a selling point. I wasn’t trying to sell anybody anything, but nevertheless, I did sell people from that, you see. But in reality, the purpose of its purpose wasn’t a selling point. It was to show them what it is and show them why I did that, and, and why I’m doing this, and write about art in general, maybe just put my ideas about this or that, but again, in, you know, just stay in the same area, you see, not just go completely different subject, completely crazy, and I had really good response. For I had sent it for about, I know, 300 over 300 people, and I had really good response. But then, at the time, at this time, about, I don’t know, six, seven months, eight months ago, I said, “That’s it, you see enough of that, because you know you have to worry about it, you have to think about it, you have to. So I quit doing that. It was great, I mean, for 15 years, every month, every month I sent one of those newsletters. I know FASO sends recommends maybe just few, just for sale, sell, selling, you see, number two or three paintings, these are for sale, and prices, and whatever it is, but that’s not, wasn’t the purpose of mine, it was more like, I don’t know, that the blog, I don’t even know what a blog is, it was something like that, but it had my painting images of my paintings in it, and people, I guess, appreciated, and some of them were surprised that I would quit. They were unhappy that I quit, but I had to, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:20

so

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:08:20

I don’t know, really. Dealing, the idea is it’s a lonely type of a profession. If you call it profession, you do it because you want to do it, you see, not because, not for the purpose of having praise from anybody, because if that was, that’s the case, you have, you’ll be neurotic by the end, you finish, by the end of your life, you’ve had it, you see, it just doesn’t work out like that, you do it because you just want to do it, and you can’t do without doing it, and that’s what makes you happy, and that’s the case, because you know if you are lucky, you’ll make money out of it, some money, which is great, you get, you know, and I, I get out of the blue, people buy my paintings, they come over here to the studio, which is this, which is a mistake to do that, but nevertheless they do. You know why? Because they have too many choices, and that’s about the worst thing you could do, is have too many choices. I want this, no, I want that, no, I want this, I want that. They turned around, you know, and finally they decide on something you see, but it’s in a way, it’s they get so confused in the museums, that’s why they put one painting and they don’t put another painting right next to it, they put it four or five feet away from it, you see, so that you won’t get, you know. Sidetracked, you know, just looking at both of them, same time, you just look at one at a time, but it’s good. I, I, the studio over here, I have all these paintings, I have my wife made books just for us, I mean, for sure, not to sell, and these books have all these paintings numbered, everything else. So, in other words, if you look, people come and look through these books. If they want to see one, we pull it out for them. There are some paintings on the wall, which they could see, but those are maybe figurative words talking about figures, hardly anybody buys figure paintings. I have many of them. The only people who bought my paintings are other artists, believe it or not, not not the public. Why would a person put a figure, you know, like some somebody like that. People would ask him,”Who’s this relative? Who’s that? Why are you having this painting? You see, when it comes to figure, unless it’s a commission, and I don’t take any commissions, but but people don’t want to have figures on their walls, somebody they don’t know doesn’t make much difference, even if they love the painting, they don’t do that, because everybody’s going to ask them, Who is this person, and, and that’s about the worst thing to explain to them. Well, that’s it’s a painting, you know. So, I mean, but I, I love to do portraits, if you call that portrait. I love to do that. It’s the most, you know, why? Because you could never repeat yourself. These, like this guy over here, I painted him maybe 20 times. Every time is different, every time it’s different, and I, I somehow or not, with all the stuff, I managed to have fairly good likeness, not perfect likeness, because I’m not a portrait painter, I don’t claim to be, and I would never want to. You know, you talk about Sargent Sargent’s paintings, believe it or not, all these commissions. If I’m right, I read about him that he hated doing that, but that’s what gave him money. You know what he enjoyed doing painting his friends sketch like painting both colors, and that’s what he enjoyed. All these fabulous ladies, you know, huge. You see them in, in, in museums. He hated doing that, you know. If you look at it, I think that’s what I read someplace, and that’s what what he didn’t like, that he didn’t enjoy that, he enjoyed the sketches he did of his friends, old paintings, and I, and those I love. Otherwise, I mean, these, yeah, okay, that’s great, they’re wonderful, but for me, they don’t mean anything, like one person, I guess, told this bong guard, the guy I’m talking about, this Russian guy. Oh, she told him, “You made my ring small over here. He told her,”Well, why didn’t you tell me that? I would really make it as big or as, as whatever it is, as you want, you know. Just tell me what you want, and we’ll do it. I mean, people, people love their, you know, to have their painting, their figure, their face painted, but, but these, like I said, these people I really love to paint are the people who you see in the streets the way they are, and I tell them, just come the way you are every day, don’t come all dressed up with fixed hair and all this stuff, don’t do that, you just come the way you usually, because that’s what I love to do with it. Just pick these people, and that’s the most enjoyable thing to do, is paint these people just the way they are, and because if it was something somebody very beautiful, and this and that, I don’t think I could improve on that. I could, I don’t know how I could paint, paint it like that, because most of them are so polished, you know. Technically speaking, they’re wonderful. Now, mind you, I appreciate what they do. I, you know, they’re just wonderful. Technically speaking, they’re just wonderful. These artists, I mean, they do fabulous stuff. It, but this painting, as far as I’m concerned, bores me. It’s boring. Okay, I see it. Okay, just a few minutes later, I forget about it. Yeah, the idea is, how to get these paintings that stay with you. You could always remember them, and that’s the trick, I think. If a person manages to do that, which some of sometime you can, sometimes you can’t, most of the time you can’t.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:36

Yeah, and I guess the only way to maybe achieve that is by painting a lot.

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:15:40

That’s just about it.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:43

Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask you if you have any final advice for someone who wants to pursue becoming an artist as a profession.

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:15:57

That is a tricky situation. The reason I say that I think they should have some confident income other than painting, unless they inherit something some people do, we see, or they have their parents support them, or somebody supports them, because if you don’t have another income, you are, you have, you are in a bind, you worry about what you’re doing, you worry about the waste, you worry every time you buy a tube of paint, it costs you $30 ends up in the trash, and you know whatever it is you’re doing for nothing, and that should not be your worry. You should have some kind of an income, so that you’ll be able to experiment. If you do not experiment, you are not in the student mode as a student all your life. I personally don’t think you should be an artist, you see. If you think it’s something, well, okay, in 10 years I’ll be an artist. Believe it or not, I didn’t even call myself an artist for many, many years. Never did I call myself painter because I didn’t really know what artist means, really. What is it? It sounds like a like something I don’t even understand. Artist, what is that? And calling myself an artist, it wasn’t something I was able to do or to say, so I mean the idea is have something, some kind of income, and paint a lot, and don’t paint on if you can’t afford it, paint on something in a paint on canvas, cheaper canvas. There’s all kinds of canvas. Don’t worry about it, because if you make it by chance, miracle, a masterpiece, somebody is bound to maybe mount it on a board. Then you have a wonderful. it doesn’t need to be linen, it would last as long as the board lasts, but if your paintings are not good, they’re gonna go in the trash eventually, sooner or later. I mean, lot of people, believe it or not, buy paintings, then their kids don’t like the painting, they might end up in, you know, somewhere else. Who knows where? Because they don’t like the painting, they change their mind. They like something else, maybe pop art, or some.. I don’t know what you see. So, but they inherited these paintings, and they don’t know how to get rid of them, you know, maybe they give him goodwill, they sell them, who knows what they do with them, so that’s that’s the point, is that if you want to be an artist, the idea is paint a lot and open with open mind, and don’t worry what medium are doing. Pick and choose what you like, but which medium fits you? Now, certain, maybe certain kind, maybe oil painting, maybe doesn’t, doesn’t work for you, for the artist. Okay, just go for it, but try it, try something different. If you don’t get bored, boredom, like I say, is your enemy, and just keep at it, and sooner or later you do it now. Someday, maybe, just like me, I ended up as a pharmacist. I don’t say I was, I did very well as a pharmacist, money, because I have never been out of a job, never, but people thought my heart was in pharmacy, and it wasn’t. See, because I was dependent, I did a good job with it, but in my heart I was, I want to be a painter, I want to be an art, I want to be a painter, so I stuck with it for so many years until I decided just that’s it, I’m done with it. I went to the person I worked for. I said, that’s it. This is my last day, buddy. He said, see that I’m done. I’m an artist now. I’m a painter, and that was the end of it. I was never happier, because I could do it without any worries. Where am I going? How am I going? Am I selling what I’m doing over here, wasting my money with my family? You know, I mean, really, look at your family, they start looking at you. What the heck are you doing? You see now, thankfully, my family support the idea of me being a painter, but some might not. You see, some say, well, gosh, here we are. We can’t find money for this, for that, for that, and you’re just wasting all this money. So then chances are you cannot experiment. You’re afraid to waste, you’re afraid to throw anything in the trash can. Somebody will see it, your relative would see, your wife would see it, your husband would see it. You don’t want that. You say, “What the heck are you doing if you don’t know what to do? Why are you doing it? Why is it in the trash can? They don’t know that it’s something you have to go through. It’s your life you have to go through that, you cannot make something perfect. It will never happen. It can never happen. It might be, get to be to your liking. Yes, to your liking. For a while, chances are you just move on into something else, and something else would be to your liking. So, I mean, that’s, that’s, I mean, to give advice to an artist, I think. I don’t know, unless they have some sort of money, you know? I mean, sort of somebody gave them some money or something, but otherwise, I think, find some way, somehow, to have another income just to support your business, your whatever it is you’re doing. It’s craziness. I keep calling it, it’s crazy. You know, sometimes I wonder whether we are really normal people, this, you know, these artists, I mean, you start thinking now, who is in the right mind will stand in front of a canvas day in, day out, or paper, or something like that. Why, for what reason? Not people are not standing in line to buy it. You don’t know that we will ever sell it. You don’t. I have so many paintings over here in my studio. I mean, love figurative work. Now, how could I sell those? And I don’t care. I really don’t. I don’t care what happens to them. It doesn’t matter to me, they are done, you know. People admire them, but they wouldn’t buy them, because I said, “Who would want to have a figure, somebody’s portrait on a wall? You don’t know who he is, and chances are the paintings I do are not polished so well that somebody would admire my, you know, dexterity, or somebody we call it, you know, I mean, hey, it’s a painting, it has blemishes, it has this, it has that, and I like that, I personally like that, and I stopped there. I could next day mess around with it, and, and get it looking nicer and more finished, but, but I don’t. It is what it is. That’s it, because if I do change it, it changes the whole thing. Personally, I think, how to get the person’s personality, you know? You know, you have to just tell somehow another, you have to manage to get the person’s actually in prayer. Question, you know, I think in one of your questions, how would, about you know, about painting that you would like? I think, what would you like to see in your painting, or something like that? I forgot what was I would love, if I were at all possible, to have an impression of something rather than a rendering of something, if I’m able to, that’s why I personally admire some of these caricature guys, people who do caricature, and I tried it over the years, off and on, I was never able to do it. They are talented people. They are. That’s what they can do. Something I could never do. And believe it, if I could take that, if I’m able to borrow some of that and put it in my painting, I’ll be the happiest person. But I can’t, you see. Yes, I do love exaggeration. Some people don’t like that. I exaggerate in color and form to a certain extent, because I love to do that. I love to push it a little bit, simply because something appeals to me on the person, like I said, it’s not, it’s not a person who wants me to really love them. They just sit there because they need the money, they are most likely their students or something or another. They love it, so most of them enjoy, they look at it, they love it. Believe now, some of them bought my painting, you know, some of these people, they’re all and on time to also, you know, just pay a little bit at a time. I guess they just like that, because it is what they are. That’s what they are, you see. It’s not something which made them completely different, lovely, something lovely, and that it’s not. It’s a personality, that’s what they are. They just block what I did. If you have tattoos, put the tattoos in it. If there’s something, turn up trousers or whatever it is, or shirt that’s what it is, or something doesn’t match something else. Okay, that’s good, that’s what they are, and they love it, you know. I enjoy what they do, you know, the freedom some of these young people nowadays, freedom, they, they have. I appreciate that, because I could never do that, you know, because they just, they come sometimes. I will sit in a restaurant, you know, and we see these students come by, teenagers, my class, no two people are alike, none of them, every one of us different, hairstyle this and that, and bad depends, and I know what set-letting, or at least they are free to do whatever it is they want to do, all the power to them, so

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:05

beautiful. Yes, yeah. Oh, man. Oh, being an artist is a tough, tough thing, huh?

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:28:16

But it’s a wonderful thing. I mean, I wouldn’t want to be anything else truthfully. If you asked me, what would you, if you had come back in mother life, I would want to be a parent, or I wouldn’t want to be anything else. There’s nothing I would want, would have wanted to be, or crave to be, or let’s say aspire to be. It’s just that’s what it is, that’s what I want to be. I don’t know, some people, maybe it’s a crazy idea, maybe it’s a crazy way of thinking about it, but I honestly think I wouldn’t have chosen anything else if I come in a different life. Let’s say a different person, I would would want to be the same to the same, maybe in a different way, but still be a painter, because there’s nothing like it, and the change you change with it, and you have to change, actually you have to move on all the time, change, because if you don’t, again you’ll be bored,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:29:38

very well said, beautiful. And then I wanted to ask you, if someone wants to see your paintings, where can they see them?

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:29:49

It’s for one thing, I have the only gallery gallery I have now is the rental sales gallery of the poor. Lund Art Museum, that’s where I have my paintings, but then I have my studio, I mean my gallery over here, and people ask me, we would love to come at an all right, all you need to do is call me, we can a day and they do come, they come and they buy something, sometimes even they are painters, they say would love to come, but I’m sure come by and they come and look, they got upstairs is where I paint, if I’m painting indoors, see, I have my easels and stuff, and paint, and all that stuff. So, they want to see what kind of brushes I use, what kind of paint I use, and it’s never the same. Sometimes I have some paint, I don’t even know why I got them, you know. They are sitting there, brand new, doesn’t use them, but so my, and then from my website, people see my website, and then they want to see if any of these paintings are available, maybe, or they want to come, that would lead them to my gallery, to my studio. Another thing, my book, they see my book, the coffee table book, and and they see the, they say, yeah, I would like to have that some epics painting, or that, if it’s available, they get it, and the other thing, otherwise the newsletter that I sent, that was good, and what else I might have my paintings here and there, but mostly this is it, you know, really, I didn’t have them in other galleries, I had I had retro, I believe, or not, as retrospectives, and those were great, because a lot of people, you know, so on all the stuff that I did, because I do drawing, I do all kinds of things, believe it or not, within last few years, I even did abstracts and I believe really, like one guy said, under every painting there’s an abstraction, which is true. I learned that after a while, and abstract, I really never was interested in it when I was painting years back, I was more opinionated in a way, but within the last few years, I started thinking, you know, really, there’s something to it. It’s the same requirement, you need a reasonable color harmony, you need a reasonable design, you know. Shapes certain shapes go together, so it’s not that easy. It’s much easier to sit over there and paint from something you see rather than from a blank piece of paper or canvas and show me what you can do and come out with some kind of an abstraction, abstract painting that appeals to you, and again, even that, believe it or not, it’s your personality shows through, even in that, even if you’re a representational painter, your personality would show in abstract if you did it, but you don’t do one, you do many, see, a lot of people jump from one thing to another to another, they do one. If you want to emulate somebody, do many, do 100. Then you decide what part of it you want to use, because mind you, we all learn from somebody else, whether we like it or not. Looking at somebody else’s painting, you might gain something without knowing it, you know. Subconsciously, you’ll gain something from it. You see, that would help you in your painting. We all learn from somebody else. There’s nobody you know, just completely. You’re not in a, in a cocoon, whatever it is, you know. You’re not just completely isolated from everything else. You are impressed by something, either somebody, somebody’s painting some something, something you know changes you every time you look at something, you’ll change and. You know, like abstract paintings, I mean, I do. Better than that, I started even selling them these abstracts. I mean, I can believe it, you know? I mean, I say, okay, you know, but it’s not something, mind you, I’m not an abstract painter. Now, my paintings are called them representational painting, but not necessarily realistic. That’s the way I call my paintings representational, but not necessarily realistic. But with abstraction, it’s different, and I don’t think it’s easy to do. People think,”Oh my god, the monkey would do it. Well, that’s not true. Try it. A lot of people, they say they see what I did. They say, ‘Oh, you know what? We tried it. Oh my god, I give up. You say I’m not going to do it again. Yeah, sure, because not easy. You have a blank piece of, they have canvas blank, and you have to make something, and you have to have some design, something that you, you like. How do you do that? Brushstroke at a time, at a time, change, change, change, change, until you got it. See, you don’t even know how you end up with this. You end up with this because something told you that’s it. This is what you got quit, because if you do some more, you’re changing it again. You’re starting back from beginning. So, I mean, it’s not, it’s not easy, and it’s wonderful to try. I personally recommend it for anybody to give it a try. See, just, just for the heck of it, you know, do something small or something. I do these big, actually 36 by 36 you know, abstraction. I have a bunch of them, and this is what I’m saying. If you want to try something else, do many, don’t do one, do many, because you do one, it’s not going to do any good. Even if you succeed, it’s not going to do any good if you do 2345, then you can decide, can I use some of this in my own painting, or forget about it, that’s it. Dave, it chances are you might gain something from it, you know, and that you could use, even if you’re represents your patron, you could, you get again something from it. So, I mean, it doesn’t hurt to try something else. It’s not going to tear up your, you see, that’s again branding, you know. Well, okay, don’t show it to anybody. If you don’t show it to anybody, that’s fine. If you are in galleries and you’re afraid, because who’s to say, you know, gallery, then manage, or whatever, you don’t know what they like, you know, they really don’t, you really don’t know, you’re lucky if the manager, owner, or manager loves your paintings. I did have some like that, and they sold a lot of my work, simply because they loved them. They bought paintings from me, so they loved what I did. Now, how do you find somebody like that? You know, but if you are lucky, you can get somebody like that. Otherwise, most of these managers, they want to, they want to see what people like, and if they like it, you are good. If they don’t like it, you’re out. See, they tell you,”Well, your type of art is not working here, you know.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:41

Yeah, yeah, those are all very, very good points, and once again, I love that you emphasize the importance of always learning and always being curious and always experimenting, because it goes to show that no matter how old you are and how long your career has been, you’re always always learning,

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:39:03

you have to be young, you have to stay young, and I stay young. I don’t know, I, you know, you really have to be in a young, young, you have to have young feelings, see that you could really, and I still believe it or not, I still love, like to learn, I like to learn, if I can, you know, but sometimes you can, sometimes you can, sometimes you can’t even talk.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:39:34

Oh man, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sarkis, for all your incredible advice and wisdom, I think I really needed to hear this as well, because I need to let myself be free and stop showing stuff to people if I don’t want to. Well, thank you so much again for being a guest on the show.

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:39:57

Thank you very much for for. The invite, and doing this, I don’t know, I’m.. I haven’t.. I haven’t done this, actually. I don’t know, maybe twice with the art beat, I guess. I did that, which was different, actually. Art beat.. well, I appreciate it. I wish you all the luck as a painter.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:40:23

Thank you so

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:40:24

much.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:40:26

Oh, thank you. You too.

Sarkis Antikajian: 1:40:28

Thanks.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:40:30

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What does it actually mean to make it as an artist? We’re not talking about the bubblegum advice you find on Instagram. We’re talking about the real work of being an artist; the day-in, day-out marathon; the changing goals artists experience as their careers progress. In this episode we wade out into the weeds of making it in the visual art business.

We’ve had the privilege of sitting down with some of the most seasoned working artists we know, and when we ask them about success, the answers always surprise us. So for this episode, we’ve pulled together some of the most honest, hard-won perspectives from past guests. These veterans share what success actually requires, what it costs, and what it turns into over time.

Episodes Mentioned:

100 Kevin MacPherson

101 Joseph Gyurcsak

105 SC Mummert

130 Scott Ruthven

140 Donald Yatomi

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Transcript:

Donald Yatomi: 0:00

What is success to you?

Scott Ruthven: 0:02

You set a goal for yourself, and the goal might be lofty, right? You want to be a self-supporting professional artist,

SC Mummert: 0:07

you know that all takes a level of ambition and drive to go ahead and see that through, and you’ve got to have that work ethic to make that, you know, to make that function, and that directly to me that directly correlates into, you know, how much success you experience on some level.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:25

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. What does it actually mean to make it as an artist? Not the Instagram version, the real version, the one that looks different at 25 than it looks at 50, the one that shifts quietly under your feet while you’re busy just trying to keep painting. I’ve had the privilege of sitting down with some of the most seasoned working artists I know, and when I ask them about success, the answers always surprise me. So today I’ve pulled together some of the most honest, hard-won perspectives from past guests on what success actually requires, what it costs and what it turns into over time. We often start our careers chasing milestones, the magazine feature, the gallery acceptance, the moment someone finally says you’ve made it. But what happens after that moment arrives?

Kevin Macpherson: 1:35

I guess having a vision, like as I said earlier, when I wanted to be an illustrator, I wanted to be the best, and I never had my parents never pushed me to do anything, you know. I didn’t have that thing. Sometimes when people, maybe their parents were a lawyer, and they want them to be a lawyer, they, you know, kind of fight that, you know, they don’t do what they want to do, so I had my own path, and I think I’ve always made my own choices, whether they were good or bad, and not tried to necessarily follow someone else’s method of success, again, maybe that’s a stupid thing, because there’s great people that we can learn from, and you know, skip over some things. I some people I remember a very fine artist when we were starting out. He really stressed he wanted to get into the Southwest art magazine or something, and he finally did. He thinks, okay, now I’ve made it, but you every time you get into a magazine, and I’ve been in hundreds and written my books, and you know they’re all little stepping stones, so I don’t think there’s one thing that’s going to make you all of a sudden be the star, and you know we’ve all, you know, I always, I remember like getting articles, the up and coming artists, you know, like, you know, when we’re young, all of a sudden, now 40 years are passed, you know, now we’re the old guys, you know, like that old guy, he’s still alive, they say,”Oh, Kevin’s still alive, you know, it seems like it goes in a blink of an eye, in a way, and you know, so again, finding your path, that you enjoy the process, I think, is important to it. The struggles, I guess, I’ve always accepted the struggles. One of the hardest things for me that I have dealt with was always extremely shy, you know. I didn’t, you know, I couldn’t go in front of people in school, you know, I, I got out of even oral book reports. My teacher knew I couldn’t do it without passing out, so she let me illustrate my book reports, and I think that was her name was mrs. Penny, so I love her to this day, that she helped me, you know, one more stepping stone of doing my art, and when I became a fine artist and was asked to teach, I literally had to go to a hypnotist for eight weeks just to get the courage to get in front of the people the first time, and and I would just have sweat attacks, and into this day when I still do keynote speaking for the Portrait Society, or the Plein Air Convention, or wherever it might be. I just was in Ireland a couple of weeks ago, and did that at the Art in the Open. I still have anxiety about that. So, overcoming that for me as part of my career, as getting out in front of people and sharing teaching, which is very rewarding to me, and I really see that’s one of the best things I think the art has given me the opportunity to share that knowledge through my books and my workshops, but overcoming that fear that I had my whole life is one of the. Biggest struggles, but it’s important that I force myself to do it, so I can add that much more part to my art life.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:08

Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I can imagine how it’s fascinating, because as artists, it’s a very solitary career, it’s a very in your studio or away from people in your own little world type of career, but it’s, it’s amazing to think that it’s actually quite a social career, especially if you want to, you know, sell your work or have some success, right? You have to put yourself out there, so it’s, it’s very important, like you said, to overcome that. Wow, that’s amazing.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 5:42

Yeah. yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 5:44

so actually now that we’re on the topic of success, right, because obviously success has different meanings for everyone, but in terms of your career, what do you find has been the greatest key to your success?

Kevin Macpherson: 6:02

I think just continuing to do it, you know, to continue to strive to improve, and, and that word, improving, or, you know, is tricky. It’s more like an evolution, I think. You know, there’s things I painted 30 years ago I couldn’t do today, and maybe some of those are my finest paintings, you know, like never know when you’re going to get that great one, so you know moving forward every day and continuing, you might get that great one. There’s. I was just in Ireland, as I mentioned, and I went back to a location that was near one of my best paintings I ever done. It was called Celtic Brilliance. That painting I did it, and the day before I painted that painting on location, I had eight weeks of painting in Ireland that I was just doing some miserable stuff. At least mentally, I got really depressed, and I never got that. For I don’t know why, but I was.. I had one of my worst painting days right before my best painting day. So we never really know when that’s going to happen, when. when all of a sudden something clicks, something works, and as I said, the evolution, as I continue to do new subjects or try different things, I evolve, and so sometimes my evolution, you know, my collectors sometimes say, “Oh, your work is changing, and I know what they mean by that. They mean I don’t like it anymore, you know. I prefer what you were doing before, and so.. and that that happens. So, again, you have to, you know, trust yourself that you’re moving in a place that might get you somewhere. So, sometimes we go down a path that you get worse for a while, right before something new happens.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:09

Kevin’s point about stepping stones is one I keep coming back to. Success isn’t a destination that you arrive at, it’s something you keep redefining as you move, but staying in motion, especially when things aren’t working requires something beyond talent, it requires structure. Joseph Gurksack came up as a professional illustrator before transitioning to fine art, and that background gave him something a lot of studio artists don’t have: business discipline. He had a lot to say about what consistency, community, and honest feedback actually do for a career,

Joseph Gyurcsak: 8:41

you have to have an organized business artist, or well, let’s, let’s phrase it this way, professional graphic artist, or professional illustrator, at least in my time of coming up, you really had to be quite the business person, very organized, and you had several different hats at the time, you had, you know, your part where you had your skill, and you could do whatever you needed to do as far as being called to the job, but you also had to be able to communicate well with the different companies that you were working with, and you also had to understand your own accounting. You also have to understand how to be organized in your, in your studio, and deliver a job on time, and get have good rep record keeping, be your own photographer, and you know, at the end of the day, if you take, if you look at the total job description of any of these, and this certainly applies to fine artists too, but I like to say. There is an abundance of illustrators that became fine artists and became very successful painters in the fine art world, because they had the discipline in their illustration career, so that illustration career discipline really helped me in the studio, when I come into work, my studio is usually very organized, and I know exactly where I’m going and what I’m trying to do to get accomplished for that work, because I have galleries that need, you know, want the next painting or this, that so it having a structure and having a plan always in the beginning, not as much now, because I’ve accomplished many, many of my goals and been very blessed that way, but in the very beginning I was doing various self-help tapes and things like Tony Robbins and all this stuff, and trying to find structure to my career and trying to find, you know, the steps that needed to be done. One year, the five year, 10 year, what does that look like? Where do you want to be? You have to know where you’re going to get there, so you have to have steps, and even though if you write out these steps, you might not accomplish them exactly the way it goes, but at least you have some sort of direction, and you will see if you journal your steps and your path, you will see that you most likely you will accomplish a lot of things on that list, you’ll be able to tick them off and say I’m on to the next thing and check it off. So, yeah, I’m all about that. That really, when I was struggling as a transition from an illustrator to a fine artist, I was really struggling for order and direction, and I didn’t know how that would happen to become a fine artist. I didn’t even know what that meant. I was getting in really good galleries right off the bat, and I had no idea how good they were, and I blew some of those relationships. So, I learned really early on, whoa, this was a bad thing, and I can’t get back in that gallery now, so yeah, no, you, you learn along the way, you have to have failure, you have to have failure, so you just gotta own up to where your weaknesses are, and then you have to work on them, because you’re going to have really good strengths, and then you’re going to have areas where you really have to focus on, hey, this is a deficit. Hey, I might be a really great painter, but I’m really disorganized, and I can’t deliver these paintings in time. What’s going on here? How can I do this better? So you always have to ask the question, how can I do this better? And if you get into a rhythm and a full blow, and you start to see, you know, hey, this worked. I’m having success. I’m getting into shows. I’m, you know, again selling the paintings, you know. You stay in that mode, and you slowly work in that, and you improve and extend yourself a little bit more. There was another turning point was in the early 90s. Artist magazine had John Howard Sandin, keys to success. He was a portrait pair. He’s now passed away, but he had 17 steps. I know if I’m saying this now, people are going to ask you for it, so I’ll send

Donald Yatomi: 13:42

you a copy

Joseph Gyurcsak: 13:42

of it, but yeah, I followed those 17 steps. It’s not something you could do in a week, a month, a year. It’s going to take many years to do the 17 steps if you really do them right, but that I credit with giving me the power, the direction, the organization to become what you term as a professional, right? Because you know at some point you’re going to like, if I can liken it to, I tell my kids, I, you show up to a demo and everything changes. Well, and you planned on doing something a certain way, and you had to lecture a certain way, and this and that, and you were going to do this painting. It was pre-planned, and now you have hundreds of people watching you do this painting, and everything is wrong. Everything changes. Well, being a professional is having the ability to move when you need to, and change when you need to, and be seamless, and that that’s not something you can.. oh, I got to train to be prepared, that happens over time through our unfortunate failures, you know, and people don’t like to hear that, but you have to learn through. To the things that you did in the past. Oh boy, man, I really failed there. I’ve got to do better than that. So I have found that to be, you know, like so many other people have said, you know, the win when you’re winning, there’s nothing to learn from that. That’s just a lot of fun. It’s the end point of something, but there’s nothing to learn from that. It’s just the glory, right? But when, when you’re going through stuff and you have to continually make adjustments, that’s when you’re really growing. It’s a couple things, I think. Being.. I wrote down some things. being inflexible is really bad, you know, if something is, you can work on something, and you can be determined to push it through, and you can give something that respectful time to develop it, but if you keep running into a wall and there’s absolutely no breakout, you really have to have some self reflection and look back, doesn’t mean that you have to change everything, but there may be some adjustments you have to do to make your idea or your journey or whatever it is, work better, so being inflexible is not always a good thing. You can be stubborn and say I’m holding on to this, this is what I’m going to do in this night, that’s great to a certain point, but I think you have to be able to take criticism, and you have to be able to sometimes allow yourself to hear other people’s opinion, and you have to reflect on that once you hear it, because it may be a difference maker. There may be, say, if you’re in your own little mode for a long time and you haven’t reached out to anyone, it’s probably a good idea to join a group or be part of something that’s bigger than you, so that you can get feedback and the relationships that you develop as an artist over time are pretty invaluable. I have so many artists that I can reach out to, and they reach out to me just for a quick conversation to hear how they’re doing, what we’re doing, what’s happening, what are you struggling with, that type of thing is really, we’re just trying to get rid of this email here. Yeah, those kind of things be consistent. Being consistent is probably the biggest downer that I see with the young artists that aren’t being successful. The reason why they’re not being successful is they’re probably having a consistency issue. So, if you had some success with something like I said earlier, maintain that, do that over again. Don’t start a new foundation somewhere else. I mean, it’s all in these success books and tapes, and whatever you want to, I mean, you hear these things over and over, but there is true that has it’s valid, you, if you find something that’s working, stay with it, do more of it, you know, and do it to the highest degree, and don’t compromise on the level of product that you’re going to put out there, it has to be your very best every time, and then the next one should be better than that one, so you’re always trying to up your game, and also, like John Howard Sanders said, hit your self to a star for a time, be with someone else that has already made it, and that you’re really loving their career. You don’t have to copy them, but you have to see how what’s making their thing tick so well, and how are they doing it, and if you can get in a situation where you can get a into a mentor program as a young artist. It’s really valuable to get that, that personal time, one on one with a, with an experienced artist, and get that feedback, what they really need to hear, what you, what you really need to hear. As far as, hey, you’re over here now, but you’ve got to do these things to get over there, and what’s your goal? Okay, again, where are you going, and what are the steps that you’re going to need to get there? We have to figure that out and break that down, figure out what you know, what are your weaknesses, where do. Have to work on those things, you know, that type of stuff. That mentality will get you there. And being disciplined, like I said, going in the studio, doing, having a certain time and a certain place to work. I remember we didn’t move too far from our other house, it’s just a block away, made the big move. My wife, my wife, God bless her, Lisa. She, when I was starting out as an illustrator, she’s like, yeah. And I was teaching in this back room, and then we started having children. She’s like, you can’t do this in here, and they’re like, well, where am I going to do it? She’s like, no, you have to have a separate studio in the yard or something. I said, well, how’s that going to happen? We can’t do that. Yes, we can start looking at buildings and figure out what we’re going to build there. So I’m like, really, and she’s like, yeah, you need it. So I built, we had this barn built in the backyard, and that was my studio, and you’d walk down there, and the students could go down there, and I could do my work down there, and I could do my teaching, and it was, it was a valuable thing. You have to have a set workplace with limited distraction. It’s very, very good for you to have a place that you can go to, and, like I said before, that’s well organized, so that when you’re ready to work, you know, look, the reality is, when you’re a young artist, unless you’re really successful right off the bat, you’re going to have to have other jobs. That was my journey, I had really rough spots, and I had all these other jobs and things, and the main thing that kept me on course was teaching to other artists, so that I could always have my head in the game, and the second other thing that I always prided myself on was keeping the studio in an organized fashion, ready to go. Everything was ready to work when the inspiration happened, because if you’re going to have to clean up for four hours before you do a painting, it ain’t going to happen. So, and if you have a limited amount of time, I have over the years, over my journey, have sometimes very limited time to paint, so when I come in, it’s I’m a nighttime painter. A lot of times I do a painting and I’m ready to go. I turn the light on, I can work, I’m organized. That kind of stuff will give you success, especially if you’re on the journey. You start selling your paintings and enter shows, you have to be part of programs, find out where you, where your home is, where you feel most invited with whatever artist group, because there’s going to be groups that you may, maybe never can get in, but there might be other artist groups that you’ll be really accepted in some society on the I’m in the Oil Painters of America as a signature member, and I’m a signature member of the American Society Impressionist Society. So I have gained the level of signature level, and that takes a while to do that, but I’m part of those groups. I know all the artists in those groups, they know me. It’s a great relationship. It’s nice to have that support around you as you’re growing as an artist, and also it kicks your butt a little bit when you go to a show and you see some amazing pains, you’re like, “Damn, you know, I gotta my game a little bit more here, you know, because I remember the first time I got in Oil Painters America, I went there and I was like, okay, this is why I couldn’t get in for like eight years, because I smelled the paintings and they were like, wow, they kick ass, so okay, it’s a wake-up call. Okay, this is at another level. So, and same thing with the American Precious. I love those guys, and you go to the show, and you’re like, God, all right. I love my painting, but look at that thing, you know? Like, it’s good to do that. It sharpens you, you know? Does that make sense? All that stuff, right?

Laura Arango Baier: 24:24

Yeah, definitely. Because I understand, you know, we, a lot of us become artists because we’re very independent, we’re very introverted, we’re very sometimes shy, and we almost exist in a bit of a vacuum, right? We don’t really have a community, we stay in our studio, we paint all day, so I, it is a great, great thing, like you’re saying, to go out, meet other artists, and feel a little bit challenged every so often in, in your ways, because they’re also growth might stagnate, you know, it might be very hard to continue that growth if you’re still doing the same thing over and over without. Maybe shifting that vision by saying the

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:04

feedback,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:05

yes, yes, that is so key, yes, and actually that goes seamlessly into my next question, which is, What do you find has been the key to your success,

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:22

I am. I’ve been always a competitive person. I don’t want to say I was a full jock kind of person, but I was in sports, I was in football, I was in track, I was a captain of the track team. I think those early on things were good for me, because I had struggled. I didn’t really learn, and this may be sound shocking to you, but I didn’t really learn to read or write till I was in my 30s. So, the key to my success is perseverance and determination, sheer determination. I’ll, well, first of all, you asked me early on my journey. I, you don’t choose to be an artist, you don’t wake up one day and say you’re going to be an artist. I, at least, I don’t look at that way. Yeah, people can want to become a painter and everything, but it for me in the soul, I mean, really, when you get down to it, I don’t, it’s a calling, it’s a calling, because there’s no way that you can stay with something for 50 years, I’ve been painting for 50 years, there’s no way you could stay into for something with all the ups and downs that you would be able to come out on the other side in a better way if you weren’t fully committed to it, you know, and it was a passion, and it’s one thing to have a passion that’s good and that’s important, but you also have to have a burning desire, and you have to have, you know, that determination to follow through, and, like I said, I have changed God so many times over the years. There was a time where I was a Trump Lloyd type painter in the beginning, and I knew that that wasn’t my calling. I felt it, it wasn’t me, I could render like so many other artists, and I loved that stuff, but it wasn’t me. So I had to keep going on the journey and find out where I really lived, and it all has to do with that perseverance, that determination, staying focused, and never giving up. The hardest times, when you’re about to give up, I could tell you from my 50 year journey as a painter, when I was just about ready to throw the talent, something great would happen, because I had the fishing line out there for multiple things, and then as I got the bad news about, oh, you’re not accepted in this show, you didn’t do this, you didn’t sell this, and then one good thing would happen and pull me along again, so you know, in order to, to, you know, keep going, you definitely have to get, like I said, the feedback, you have to get your peer, you know, feedback is really important, because when you, when you are involved with other things beyond your studio, those things help lift you up and give you more confidence. So, I know artists are going to lack confidence when they’re, when they’re failing and they’re struggling. It’s important to say you have to just keep working through it, and, and I remember one time there’s so many turning points in my life, if you think about 50 years, but I was really down and having a really hard time and pretty depressed, and my wife said to me, Why are you doing this? And I said, she said, You used to do this because you loved it, and now I don’t see that in you, and my God, those words were so penetrating, because I thought, oh my God, she’s right. Originally I did this because I loved it, not because of all these other things, whether it worked out or not. And every time I come in the studio now, I think about I’m doing this, and I’m blessed because I can do this thing and I can do it well and I appreciate just the the ability to do it, I think when you’re in order to have success, if I could wrap that up in something. And share that with the artists, is that you, you have to, you have to be completely free, your mind has to be clear, and that’s the point where you’re in the zone, and you’re creating something incredible that sometimes after you finish the creation, you don’t even know how you arrived there, and then that work or that art I have found when I share that, that speaks to the volume of people out there, and there’s something undeniable about you painting some truth with your own vision, with your own heart, and if it comes out extraordinary, there’s something that can’t be denied about that. I have entered paintings that I was like, you know, this is this is this painting is like something to me, it’s like, and other people feel it, whether it wins an award or not, but I get you get feedback, especially on social media now, but when you put it out there and people are giving you feedback, it’s not, oh, I just need that feedback to survive, but it’s important because you have a certain, you put a part of you out there, and when you put that part of you out there, and it’s sincere, and it’s real, and it’s part of you. People are definitely going to recognize that, and I could say, you know, there is no term for being original or finding your style. Just paint where your gut and be free in your mind, and do your work, and the rest of it will will all fall into place, as if you just keep working at it, you know. Yeah, there are skill levels that need to be addressed, and all this stuff, if you want to reach a certain representational painting, or whatever, whatever painting, it doesn’t have to be anything like I’m doing, or like any other artists do, but you’ll find your zone if you’re really digging down deep and you’re following that path, and then you start sharing that path. I think a lot of artists I had students over the years that they were coming for a long time, they wouldn’t enter their paintings and anything, and I’m like, no, you have to put that out there, you have to put that out there, you’ve been in this journey, and you know, now you start need to share, so just Saturday mornings with, I’m not traveling, I have a Saturday morning class here, and I’ve been doing that forever, you know, it’s my way giving back. So, two of my students, three of my students were telling me about awards that they recently won, and they were so excited about it. Now, I’ve been working with these artists for a couple years, and I’m like, yes, that’s what, not the awards, so much, but the fact that they put their work out there and let people see it. You can’t really just live in that bubble and do the work, do the work. I know other artists that have never taken their work out, and I’m like, this is fabulous, you need to enter this or that, and they won’t do it, but you know that’s their loss. I mean, I feel like when you create a painting, it’s got to go out into the world. My wish is that yes, it’s going out to the world, it’s going to find that. I just had a call from my gallery yesterday, one of my pains, the woman said she has to have the painting, she has, if she doesn’t, she’ll be sad. My God, what better compliment for success do you need to hear than that? Like, the person is actually emotionally attached to it before they even bought

Scott Ruthven: 33:55

it. Like,

Joseph Gyurcsak: 33:55

that’s it. You made the connection. You only have to make a connection to one person at a time, when you’re selling their paintings, too,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:04

that idea of feedback as a lifeline, not just ego validation, but real directional information came up again and again, and so did the question of what’s actually driving you when you walk into the studio. If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 18th of July with our special guest, Timothy Tyler. You can find the signup link in the show notes. At Boldbrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, be. Because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity, and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles, and a free monthly art contest, open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that, to sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s B O L D B R U S H show.com The FASO Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e-commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So, if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com, that’s FASO.com. SC Mummert has built a career that runs almost entirely on intentionality, he spent six weeks away from the brush just to understand the marketing, and what he discovered changed how he thought about creating altogether.

SC Mummert: 36:49

I’m just going to say it, because I think it’s fair. You know, your own work ethic, your own self-discipline will have a tremendous impact on your own success. I feel, you know there’s not going to be anybody to wake up and force you to go down to the studio and do this, you know, and ideally you don’t need that anyway, but still it’s not there, and so you have to have a level of drive, you know, to go ahead and I would say achieve to achieve any success, as I mean, I’m an entrepreneur, I would say that any, any artist that’s out trying to do will say what I do. You have to be, you’ve got all these different hats you’ve got to put on, you know, where you’ve got your shipping hat, you’ve got your, you know, maybe your marketing hat, you’ve got all these different things that you got to do as an entrepreneur, and so forth. And so, you know, that all takes a level of ambition and drive to go ahead and see that through, and you’ve got to have that work ethic to make that, you know, to make that function, and that directly to me, that directly correlates into, you know, how much success you experience on some level. I think there’s, there’s that that interactive thing that, you know, my dad used to say, the harder you work, the luckier you got, you know. And I think that that’s there’s some truth to that, you know. If you have that, if you roll your sleeves up and you apply yourself because you love what you do, you know, when that happens, then it’s remarkable what can unfold, you know. And again, I’ve experienced that. I’ve been very privileged to be allowed to do what I love for a living, you know. Grateful that is, that should probably be everybody’s question that we need to ask ourselves. What happened to me? So, what happened to me? About, I’ll make it up here, because it’s, it’s, it’s almost like I can’t tell what a year is anymore, because a year goes by for me, it feels like about 90 days or something, it’s just, it’s pretty odd, but so I’ll just say, like, four years ago, maybe five years ago, I became disgusted with my own lack of understanding about marketing, and so I went ahead and put the brushes down for, I think, like six weeks, which is quite a spell. And then began to just read everything I could and try to immerse myself into this and really get a better understanding on marketing, and which helped. All that was beneficial. Then I went ahead and found a couple of coaches. I, in fact, I’m still working with a guy out of Australia, and there’s another guy out of.. I was, I was getting coached by two guys, whenever out of Australia, the other guy out of Atlanta, Georgia, and I’d have these weekly coaching sessions, you know, when they were helping me with marketing, and. and that transformed me also, because there’s it’s very comprehensive, actually, in what happens when you begin to understand and get a better grip and dig into marketing, it actually helps you in the creation of your art. You wouldn’t think it would necessarily, but what it begins to do, it helps you start to. It a grip on your audience that you’re creating the art for, and so, for example, like we’ll just use Nashville, that maybe that’s the Center for Country Western Music, we’ll say those guys know exactly what their audience is, you know, I, and when they craft a song for their audience, and they, they’re making a song that they enjoy that they love making, but they also understand what their listeners and what their audience, what will appeal to them, and so it’s a win-win. And so, what happens once you begin to understand marketing and maybe building an avatar for the kind of person you’re in fact trying to create your product for, and so forth, and I’m not saying make something that you don’t like, that’s not my point, but the very, the very best thing that can happen is that you find something that you enjoy making and you find out it’s also happens to be something that the audience is seeking, and so when you, when you, when you have that convergence like that, which is happening in my own life, frankly, right now, so when that, when that happens, then you have the best of best of everything, because it’s all synergistic, you know, and so, but that a lot of that understanding with with marketing and so forth continues to affect almost everything that I do right now, including concepts for paintings, and so forth, and you know that creative element, that’s it’s a little mysterious, even to me, you know that. How you can kind of put all this together, and, and go to sleep, and wake up in the morning, you’ve got an idea that maybe you didn’t have when you went to sleep, and maybe you’re subconscious and worked on that, whatever, I don’t know, but the bottom line is that something pops out, but this marketing element actually influences that as well, you know, whatever you, whatever pops out of you, you know, and then that again affects what you end up producing, and so as far as marketing, so what happens is this is this is interesting because marketing will always take time. Marketing will take time. Now, the marketing, the time could be you, besides some easels at a park with your work, and you’re talking, you’re interacting with people that may walk by in the park, and you’re maybe you’re talking to them about, you know, them buying your art, that’s taking time, took time to set the easels up to drive there, set your art up, and so forth, time, so there’s all that investment of time, so that same little micro example of is can be applied to almost everything, you, there’s always time spent to end up being a success in art via via some marketing vehicle, and that vehicle can be the thing in the park. It can also be a gallery. The gallery is simply a vehicle to market your art. A show can be a vehicle to market your art, and so on and so forth. So, as long as we understand the vehicle and the price we’re going to pay, whether it’s time or a percentage that you give away of money rather than your time to stand there, you know, so forth. It’s all picking a vehicle, and what’s going to be the most successful fit for you. Maybe it’s time on Facebook, you know, maybe it’s, you know, however that’s done. Maybe a social media like I’m saying, you know, it’s just finding the vehicle that fits your own pre-elections, and you know what you feel is going to be your time spent best with your, you know, your personality, and that’s all that’s all marketing. And in my particular instance, I work hand in glove with the galleries that I’m in, and we, it’s pretty remarkable, because it takes a very special gallery to work with me. I’ll just, I’ll just say that, and that’s that’s no criticism against anybody else. It’s, it’s just what I, what we have. Part of the reason why I have, I would say I would assign my success to is that I have galleries that I can take and give concepts to, and they will spend the time to take these concepts, and maybe I’ll give them maybe eight concepts. I’ll pick the number eight, and I’ll say, well, here these are concepts that I’ve come up with. What do you think about that? And what they’ll do is they’ll actually take their high net or ultra high net worth clientele that they have this relationship with that I don’t have that they’ve gone ahead and fostered and poured themselves into, but they’ll take the initiative to go ahead and run those concepts past their clientele, and then the clientele will say, well, I think these, I don’t like it, because I like them all, but that doesn’t mean that the clients will, the people with the money, and so they’ll go ahead and say, well, here I, these, and maybe they’ll pick three or four out of the eight that are winners, and so then I’ll go ahead and produce the three or 4p Paintings will say, and I know you’ll be shocked to hear they’re selling before they’re off the easel. In many cases, because they’re virtually pre-sold. In fact, I had - there’s a national show here in the West Coast that wanted me in the show, and a guy got a hold of me on behalf of the guy running the show, and he said,”Well, here we just want a painting, he’s mummer. He says,”I don’t care what it is, we just want one of your paintings in the show. And I said, “Well, gosh, that’s flattering. I said,”I don’t have anything. And he said, “Come on, every artist has got paintings hanging around their studio. I said, “Dude. I said, “I don’t. I said, “Come on over. He was a local guy that called me, and he said, “No. I said, “His name was Mark. I said, Mark, come over to the studio, you find a painting you can put in the show. I said, I’m wiped out. The only painting I have is on the easel. Now that’s a.. any.. he said, really? I said, Mark, yes, you know. And I said, if it wasn’t that way, something’s wrong, you know? Because, because I want.. I want that’s the level of success that I hope for, you know. And so, in the good news is that I’m very blessed that that’s been happening that way, and but I’m trying to give you kind of a glimpse behind the scenes of the mechanics that, so there’s this marketing stuff that’s affecting the way that I create the concepts, and I get feedback from my galleries as well, they’ll tell me, well, they don’t like this, and this is why they didn’t like it, but they’d like this, and this is why they like that, and so forth. So I’m getting all this live feedback, and I feel that all success is based on a all progress. I’ll just say it this way, all progress is based on a on a feedback loop, on an accurate feedback loop. So if you saw, I couldn’t even walk to my car if I did, if I close my eyes, which are my feedback loop, if I, if, if I try to walk to my car, maybe my hands become my feedback loop, or a stick, you know, and I can try to find my way to my car, but it’s all based on feedback, and that’s critical to an artist, because what happens if we don’t have feedback, if we, and that could be that could be feedback from someone standing at at their easels in the park, and people are, and they’re talking, then they’re interacting, and they’ll say, well, gee, you know, I, I like this landscape here, but I don’t like the dog you painted here, and, well, why not, you know? And then you can start to get this feedback, so that’s all that will all benefit you, and maybe sometimes we don’t like hearing that, but I think it’s all beneficial. I think even the bad stuff will help us, you know. We can go.. well, I don’t think I’m going to do that again. We can, we can learn, but it’s all based on this, on this feedback. And my galleries are very, very efficient and very good at doing it with me. And not every gallery is prepared to do that. There was a gallery I was up in Carmel, California, which is an amazing small town. Have you been there? So

Laura Arango Baier: 47:51

good things,

SC Mummert: 47:52

it’s amazing, and it’s just as high net worth. We’ll just say very charming town that has.. last time I was up there. They had 82 galleries in this little small area, so just mind blowing. And so I poked my head in. I was actually asking marketing questions to one of the sales guys in this large gallery up there, and they said, “Well, here, just.. and so he introduced me to the owner, and I said, ‘Listen, I’m an artist, I don’t want to take your time, you know, if you’re busy, please, you know, I’ll let you go. Oh, no, no. And so they wanted to talk to me. And so then, well, what, you’re an artist, look, let me see your art. And so the easiest thing these days is to whip your phone out, you know, and you can show somebody a picture of your art. Well, the next thing I know, they’ve got the other owner in, and they’ve got me back in a room, and they want to carry my art, you know, and which I mean, wow, that’s very flattering. I appreciate that. And so we’re talking about percentages and all that stuff, you know. Okay. Well, we’ll see. Well, as it turned out, the reason why I bring that up, as it turned out, they were not prepared. They said what they said. They said,”Listen, you make 10 paintings, and then we’ll pick six out of the 10 that we like, and we’ll take the six, and I thought, well, if I do 10 paintings, I want all 10 to sell, I don’t want to just have four back in my studio, right, and so, and I said, well, you know, I need, okay, because every region and market is different, so Carmel will have a different market than Santa Fe, New Mexico, and Santa Fe, New Mexico will have a different market than downtown New York City, you know, so forth, and so you ideally you’re creating just like the Nashville with the country was, you know, you’re creating product that’s going to be a success in that market, and they weren’t willing to spend the time to give me the feedback to be a success, I felt, you know, in their market, and I understand that I’m not here to criticize that. It’s just that I, I’m looking for a gallery, and actually, in fact, I’m fortunate to work with galleries that will invest that time, and it’s been very successful for both of us. Franklin,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:01

that convergence he describes making what you love and discovering it’s also what your audience needs, that’s the thing every artist is chasing, whether they name it or not. But getting there takes showing up consistently over years in the practical, unglamorous ways. Scott Ruthven is one of those artists who brings a genuinely unusual lens to all of this. He came to painting after a long career in business, and it shows in the best possible way.

Scott Ruthven: 50:27

I was thinking about this last night, so I’ll start off with just bookkeeping and accounting, which seems kind of left field here, right? But it is one of those things. If you’re going to be selling your work, then you need to have those skills. It doesn’t have to be hard, but what’s really hard is if you wait all year and you try to remember what happened. That’s crazy, but you know there’s a lot of tax advantages. Everything as an artist, you know, if you’re going to paint, all your materials, all your time, your travel expenses are all tax deductible, so if you’re going to claim the income and pay taxes on that, you should look for and record and keep track of your deductions as well, but it can be a lot, so but I do think about that as a business. This is my business here, and I try to keep up with that. I do keep up with it on a daily basis. It’s part of my workflow, so bookkeeping is, you know, what I would say, accounting scares people away, but it’s bookkeeping, recording your mileage, recording your sales, that kind of thing. So that came really natural to me, but so beyond that kind of, you know, mired down in the weeds bookkeeping stuff, you know, I became comfortable speaking to large audiences, being accountable to goals, and my communication clarity, and communication promptness, you know, having a product like we said that looks good, it looks good from the back, it’s got certificate of authenticity, it’s got the little things that people care about as a product, right? The frames clean, it doesn’t have little smudges of fingerprints. I can’t tell you how many times I go into galleries and you see a frame full of fingerprints and dust, and you know the artist has just reused that thing over and over again, or somebody has. You know, my business career taught me that, you know, those details matter, and you know another example is if you’re you’re in a show or you’re not even going to a gallery, but you’re in a show and you’ve got to ship work, follow the instructions, be prompt replying to emails, the coordinator, whoever’s putting that work in to mount that show really appreciates that, and when you’re somebody you want them to say, “Gosh, you were a pleasure to work with. When you can do that, Who I have so many examples where my name was top of mind with somebody because of a good experience, right? And then when an opportunity came up, my name was in the top of their top of their mind, and so I got another opportunity, because they thought of me, you know. So it’s those details we got to produce good work, but that’s kind of the given. It’s all the other things, which can be a mountain of work. Honestly, it is running a business. You got to think about it as a business, try to be profitable, try to build on whatever you’re building, so you’ve got a network, you’ve got collector base, you’ve got social media following, all of these things you’re saying yes to opportunities, lot of times we don’t, I want to say no to an opportunity, I don’t really.. there was a movie a few years ago, probably too long ago, but I think it was called Yes Man, and he couldn’t say no to something, and it changed his life, that’s kind of, you know, the nutshell.. I couldn’t remember all the details, but to a point, you shouldn’t just say yes to everything and you’re chasing your tail, wasting all your time, but there are a lot of great opportunities that come up, and they might be scary because they push you out of your comfort zone, but you have to say yes, because you never know where they’re going to lead, who you’re going to meet. I meet fascinating people when I travel to these shows, or I plan air paint. Sometimes I pinch myself. I think, how do I.. some of the people I know and have met, and the experiences that I’ve gotten to do, I never would have if I weren’t like a TV personality or a rock star or something. I think, wow, this is amazing life. So, it can be a great life as an artist. Get out there, be uncomfortable, be professional, and you know, set, and then let’s talk about goals for a minute. Goal setting is another thing I learned from business, and I think can be a struggle for artists. There’s a great book that I recommend by Gary Keller, and it’s called The One Thing, and this book, The Essence of It, I read it two or three times when. You know, basically every year for a few years when I first found it, because I thought it was a great reminder, and it’s about, you know, how you, you set a goal for yourself, and the goal might be lofty, right? You want to be a self-supporting professional artist. Well, that’s hard to undertake at one thing, and it seems daunting, and maybe you procrastinate because you don’t know where to start, and so the whole concept of the one thing, which you should read, because there’s probably a lot more to it than I remember, but my key takeaway that changed my life in business, and this was years before doing art full time, but you know, you take that thing, you have your goal, you got to know where you’re going first of all, but then every day when you get up if you think about your goal, and you think, well, what’s one one thing I could do today? The smallest little thing, it doesn’t matter, what’s that one thing I could do today to move me in that direction. And that should be one of your top priorities, and you should do that before you get sucked into the rest of your day. You have alignment where you want to go, and then you’ve got just one little thing, and you think I could do that one thing today. Maybe it’s like I haven’t sent a newsletter. I’ve never sent a newsletter. It intimidates me. Well, what’s the one thing I could do today? I go into my Faso website and look at that newsletter link in there, and see what it takes, and just open that today. Maybe that’s your one thing. So, now you got past that scary thing. Well, tomorrow is all right. You know what? Maybe I’ll just write down an outline of what a monthly email or newsletter would be, and what you.. you know what happens is success builds on success. You say, I already moved forward a little bit, I can do this, and pretty soon you know we way underestimate what we overestimate what we can do in the short term, and then we weigh underestimate what we can achieve in a long period of time, or in a long distance of time, and you know it’s just I see that over and over in myself, if I move forward a little bit at a time on a regular basis toward a goal that I’m really sure of, and this is really, you know, trying to review your goals every day, do they align with where you are, who you want to be, where you want to be, and then thinking about that one thing, and you know, some days that one thing turns into five things, but you look back over a year and you know you’re amazed. I do a YouTube video or a YouTube channel, and I was looking at that. I pulled it up here. I have 78 videos on there now. If I, at the beginning of that thought. Okay, I need to start a YouTube and film 78 videos. I would be completely overwhelmed and never start. I can’t even really believe that I’ve done 78 videos, which you know isn’t a whole lot. There’s people with hundreds and hundreds, right? But for me, I look at that and I can barely even remember doing all of that work. It just seems like, how did it grow, but it was just doing one at a time, a little bit at a time, whatever I had the energy for, and you know, then back over time, that’s something that’s built on itself. People have subscribed, it gets more views, I’m reaching more people, I sell more art, I sell art from that kind of thing. So that’s a great book, and definitely one of the skills that I got from business is goal setting and holding myself accountable to achieving results over a period of time, so setting the timeframe for yourself and going after it as small in chunks as you need to for your your work and life situation

Laura Arango Baier: 58:42

through the one small thing today. I love that, because it makes the overwhelming feel possible. But all of these definitions of success - discipline, structure, marketing, community - they all still assume you know what you’re building toward, and that’s actually the harder question. Donald Yatomi came from the corporate video game world, which means he has a very particular perspective on what it costs to trade freedom for security and what it means to finally stop.

Donald Yatomi: 59:06

I mean, at the end of the day, it’s like you’re gonna, you’re gonna flourish, and you know, flourish. When I use the word flourish, it doesn’t always equate to money. It’s like, what, what is success to you, right? What, it’s man, when I was like, when I was working in the corporate world, doing video games, man, they pay you a lot of money, but you’re, you’re not really happy, you know what I mean, because you’re in this corporate structure, there’s so many rules and policies, and then it’s a collaboration decision in regards to art, so you got the whole world deciding what your art is supposed to look like in video games, right? So, and that’s your typical corporate structure, anyways, and you’re sitting. Sitting on the computer from Monday through Friday for eight to 10 hours, and you’re stuck, you know what I mean. And you know, for people that like to travel or take vacations, you have to go through all these steps to get permission to be allowed to go, and you know, it took me a long time to realize that, man, it’s like that’s you’re giving up your freedom for money, so it’s like, where do you put success? So that’s why I told you that I love that last webinar with with John Master, or Don

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:40

John, yeah,

Donald Yatomi: 1:00:41

he was able to articulate, I gotta watch it again, but he, he was able to articulate what was success to him, right? So it’s a balance between income, freedom, and doing what you love to do, right? So that’s you just got to put where, where your importance are

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:01

income, freedom, and doing what you love- three things that seem simple until you try to hold all of them at once. What strikes me about every one of these conversations is that success doesn’t get easier to define the longer you’re in it. If anything, it gets more personal, more specific, more yours. The goal posts move, and maybe that’s not a failure of ambition. Maybe that’s just what growth feels like. Thanks for listening. If something from today’s episode landed with you, I’d love to hear it. Reach out, leave a review, or share this with an artist in your life who’s in the middle of figuring it out. That’s what this community is for.

Learn the magic of marketing with us here at FASO!
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For today’s episode, we sat down with Todd Williams, a Nebraska-born impressionistic oil painter who discovered his calling as a child, went on to study at the Kansas City Art Institute, worked a decade as an illustrator for Hallmark, and has since spent about 25 years as a full-time fine artist represented by major galleries. His work is driven by a desire to evoke emotion at both a distance and up close, with paint quality, broken color, and expressive brushwork often carrying as much weight as the subject itself. Technically, he emphasizes the “science” of painting—values, composition, clean value planes, and his value–color–mixture approach—as the left-brain foundation that lets him later enter a childlike, intuitive “spirit of painting” mode. A major milestone was his Legacy Nebraska Collection, a five-year project tied to Nebraska’s sesquicentennial that deepened his connection to place, history, and Native American subjects, and led naturally into his current series of bold, expressive Native American portraits and Western work. His advice to artists centers on perseverance, choosing strong and simple subjects to set yourself up for success, learning from both failures and wins, and accepting the ongoing tension between painting what sells and painting what most moves you. Over time, his definition of success has shifted from financial hunger and high output toward health, spiritual grounding, contentment, and relationships—treating the studio as a sacred space and the artistic journey itself as the true destination. Finally, Todd tells us about his upcoming activities, including teaching workshops with the Indiana Heritage Arts group in Nashville, Indiana and at the Merrick County Museum in his hometown of Central City, Nebraska, participating in ongoing and future Western-themed exhibitions (such as at the Museum of Western Art in Kerrville and Settlers West Gallery in Tucson), and contributing to the traveling “Painting the Arkansas Parks” exhibition organized through the Heart of America Artists for 2026–2027.

Todd’s FASO site:
toddwilliamsfineart.com/

Todd’s Social Media:
instagram.com/toddwilliamsfineart/

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Transcript:

Todd Williams: 0:00

Set yourself up for success, you know, and because a lot of times what we do is we choose maybe not the right reference to use, or we choose not the right subject, and you know, you need to keep things a little bit more simple in the beginning, so you can kind of build confidence in that, and so again, getting back to the four value planes, if you’re doing landscape painting, those are really important, just to keep those very simple, you know, within the values and those value planes, and then everything else will kind of fall into place.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:37

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that Fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights for today’s episode. We sat down with Todd Williams, a Nebraska-born impressionistic oil painter, who discovered his calling as a child, went on to study at the Kansas City Art Institute, worked a decade as an illustrator for Hallmark, and has since spent about 25 years as a full-time fine artist represented by major galleries. His work is driven by a desire to evoke emotion at both a distance and up close, with paint quality, broken color, and expressive brushwork often carrying as much weight as the subject itself. Technically, he emphasizes the science of painting values, composition, clean value planes, and his value color mixture approach as the left brain foundation that lets him later enter a childlike, intuitive spirit of painting mode, a major milestone was his legacy Nebraska collection, a five-year project tied to Nebraska’s sesquicentennial that deepened his connection to place, history, and Native American subjects, and led naturally into his current series of bold, expressive Native American portraits and Western work. His advice to artists centers on perseverance, choosing strong and simple subjects to set yourself up for success, learning from both failures and wins, and accepting the ongoing tension between painting what sells and painting what most moves you over time. His definition of success has shifted from financial hunger and high output toward health, spiritual grounding, contentment, and relationships, treating the studio as a sacred space and the artistic journey itself as the true destination. Finally, Todd tells us about his upcoming activities, including teaching workshops with the Indiana Heritage Arts Group in Nashville, Indiana, and at the Merritt County Museum in his hometown of Central City, Nebraska, participating in ongoing and future Western-themed exhibitions, such as the Museum of Western Art in Kerrville and Settlers West Gallery in Tucson, and contributing to the Traveling Painting the Arkansas Parks exhibition, organized through the Heart of America artists for 2026 through 2027 Welcome, Todd, to The FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Todd Williams: 2:53

Good, thank you, Laura.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:55

I’m excited to have you, because I saw your work, and I really thought I need to pick his brain about how he thinks through these gorgeous broken colors, and just the way that you navigate the canvas with your brush strokes is just.. it is so beautiful to look at, and I can’t get tired of just looking around your canvases, just seeing where all the colors end up, and how it creates such beautiful portraits and landscapes. So, I’m really happy to have you, and pick your brain about

Todd Williams: 3:28

it. Thank you. That’s so kind. Yeah, for me, I’ve always had, like, this dream of really wanting my work to evoke an emotion, really, to the viewer, and to be exciting on multiple levels, and so the actual paint itself to me was really exciting, and sometimes that in my mind, as I’m creating, becomes even more important than the subject is just the paint itself, and so you know, from a distance, you want your word to really read well, right? You want people to go, “Wow, I want to get up closer to that and see it, but then when they get up close and maybe even go in really close to see the details, I want them to be excited about the paint quality, and so for me that’s just.. I don’t know, something. As, as I began my journey as an artist, I wanted to try and evoke that type of an emotion to the viewer.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:39

Yeah, yeah, and I think it definitely shows through. There’s a very, like, it feels like you really care about what you’re painting, but also you don’t want to lose the expressiveness of the paint, and I can definitely see it. I really love how you treat your subject matter. It feels, yeah, it feels very delicate, but also expressive. It’s very. State,

Todd Williams: 5:01

thank you. Yeah, there is sensitivity to it, and of course, all the artists will tell you it’s really, you know, it’s about the values, and you have to get those right first, and then after you really accomplish that, what I would call the science of that, because there really is a science of painting, then you can get into more of your right brain and the creative side, and kind of let those, like, childlike enthusiasm to me is, is kind of the best way to describe it, is like you just kind of let, let the spirit kind of flow out of that, and let the work have a voice of its own, you know.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:45

Yeah, I agree, and I think that’s one of the hardest parts of pursuing, you know, an artistic career as well, is how to allow yourself to do that. Right, I feel like a lot of people hold themselves back from that state, because maybe they think, oh, it’s so silly, it’s childish, or, or maybe they’re afraid of being vulnerable, but yeah, yeah, actually, before we dive into that aspect, because I think we can totally dive into that more, I actually want to ask you, when you began to follow the path of the artist,

Todd Williams: 6:25

so you know, I got my BFA at the Artist In Kansas City, and then I ended up getting an internship with Hallmark Cards my senior year, and so that last semester it was really the first time, really, you know, at an early age I actually had some money, I was like, and so for an artist, you know, when you, when you have the dream, become an artist, and for me that dream started really early, and we can kind of get into that later, but I knew that it’s not about getting rich, you know, it’s not, it’s not the occupation that necessarily even your parents want you to become, because I remember some stories I can tell you here a bit later about my dad and sitting down with my art professor from high school, and you know, it’s like, what, you know, he wants to be an artist, and so anyway, it all worked out well, and I am very thankful for that, but it’s tough, so when I, after I, upon graduating, and had some experience at Hallmark. I kind of sent my book out and ended up getting hired from Dayspring Cards, and then I worked for them for 10 years, and they, while I was working for them, they actually became a subsidiary of Hallmark, so I ended up working for Hallmark again, and under that umbrella. So it was really fun. It was great for me to grow. It was a great time to really find my own voice, and kind of, you know, just who, what I wanted to say and speak through my paintings, because I really didn’t know. And as an artist for Hallmark and Dayspring, I kind of had to be a jack of all trades, right? I had a, you know, like, say there was a sentiment editorial written for Mother’s Day, and they would go, ‘Hey, we want you to do a painting of a woman in the garden, you know, you know, tending to her flowers, and we want you to paint it in like a Monet impressionistic style, so that would be the, you know, the direction they gave me, so that was great. I enjoyed that, but then again, it just wasn’t me exactly. And so, after 10 years with them, working full time, which was a huge blessing, I was able to step away from that and pursue fine art, and so I’ve been painting full time now for almost 25 years. At one point in my career, I had seven galleries coast to coast, all the way from Seattle, Washington to Martha’s Vineyard, so it was, it was, you know, a lot of work, but I was just really prolific. I worked really hard providing all those galleries with work, and you know, if the piece doesn’t sell there, you send it somewhere else, and voila, it somehow sells. So, sometimes there’s no rhyme or reason to that, but so yeah, after almost 25 years it’s been great. I mean, I’ve had a lot of financial success, you know, some years are always better than others, but you know. It’s I didn’t, you know, getting back to the main point was I didn’t become an artist because of the money, I became an artist because I really felt like God had given me a gift and I needed to use that to my fullest potential, so

Laura Arango Baier: 10:18

yeah, yeah, and you certainly have, and consider you had seven galleries, that’s a lot, that’s a lot of work. Oh my gosh, insane. But yeah, and actually I do want to go back into the voice aspect, and that aspect that we were just talking about, you know, that childlike sort of flow approach to painting, because I find that it’s very natural for an artistic voice to progress as the years go on. So, in your career, how has your artistic voice revealed itself as you’ve painted more and more, and how have you maybe found yourself allowing yourself to also step into that vulnerable childlike, I guess, identity while you paint?

Todd Williams: 11:15

Yeah, so kind of getting back to, you know, really like the science of painting, and some of those foundational truths, as I learned more in studying art, you know, with with other great professional artists through the years, because really, you know, when I was at the Art Institute, you know, they teach you composition, they teach you color theory, but they don’t really teach you necessarily some of the aspects that goes into, like, say, mixing paint, like, how do I actually mix that correct value and that correct color, and so as I began to learn more throughout my career and began to teach myself, I kind of broke it down into, you know, these different truths or disciplines. I had the privilege of studying with some great artists, like Obama, and CW Monday, Dan Gearhart. So, you know, you kind of get all this information, and then you kind of becomes a part of you, and then you kind of add your own little spin to it, but you know really that those aspects, or that language to creativity, and specifically painting is really the same sometimes Sometimes the words that we use are a little bit different, but there’s really not anything new under the sun, right? But it’s just really taking that information and letting it really become a revelation within yourself. And I remember being in my studio, painting, and then all of a sudden the light bulb comes on after you know miles and miles of canvas, oh, that’s what Avannis meant, or that’s what you know CW meant when he said that, and so then those things are instilled within you, they become a part of you, and then once you have that, it’s almost like you know Pablo Picasso, what he had spoken, you have to learn the rules before you can break them, and so once you have that left brain knowledge, then it helps, then what you said, that childlike, the right brain, then, or really the spirit of painting, just let, let that flow, and so even with mixing, like when I teach part of the things I teach is called the VCM, it’s the value color mixture, and so within a certain value plane, say like a sky or something, we’ll actually look for that correct value color mixture, and then we’ll bend it, you know, warmer on one side and cooler on the other, but it’s really the same value, and so within that you still have that clean value playing, you know, like Edgar Payne talks about the four value planes, so for me that’s where when I solve all the issues ahead of time it then allows me to then flow out and be more creative, more spontaneous, get into the paint more, get into the paint manipulation, because I’ve solved all the other issues and there’s so much to think about, right? When you’re actually in it, and it’s tough. It’s not easy. I remember Avantis Berberian saying one time to us, as I was in one of his workshops, he said, if you wanted to do something easy, you should have become a brain surgeon, I. Yeah, because the amount of focus that we need as artists, and sometimes it’s very isolated to a specific amount of time, it’s almost like brain surgery, you know, maybe it’s only for a few hours, but you have to be just so in tune to that process, you know, in that zone, you know, into that right brain, and so to me, if I can solve all the other issues ahead of time, it helps me not get out of that zone. If that makes sense,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:35

yeah, yeah, it’s a delicate balance, yeah, because sometimes you can. I don’t know if this has happened to you. It probably has, because it’s, you know, it’s very common, but like, you might start painting, and then you start overthinking, and you start overthinking. Oh, but this, this might not be right, but what about over here? But then there are other moments where it’s almost like it’s too quiet in your brain, and it’s just also not really going anywhere, so it’s like a like that sweet spot of like, okay, this is the knowledge base that I have, like you said, you have to have that knowledge base, and then okay, How do I temper my thoughts so that they’re not overwhelming and controlling the flow, but yeah, I think also it’s just sometimes it just some paintings just don’t work. I don’t know if that also happens to you, or it’s like it’s.. I’ve tried, it’s just not working. Do you ever feel that way?

Todd Williams: 16:32

Yeah, absolutely. And those are the times too, I can feel when I just get mentally and sometimes physically tired, and I now you know, at this stage of my career, I have gained the wisdom to go, you know, what it’s time to step away, you know, maybe for that whole day and come back fresh the next day, because part of the thing, too, as the author of your painting, you know, you’re you’re creating something, and you’re so attached to it, and I have to somehow be detached from it to see it again with fresh eyes, because you’ll fall in love with, like, one area of the painting, but if that area is not correct, if those values and shapes are not correct, then the rest of the painting is now fractured, right? So it really becomes problematic if you continue in that, say that day, or whatever, that you’re working, and so it’s, it’s challenging, you know. Every time that I go to paint again, I think all of us artists struggle with, oh my gosh, you know, is this going to turn out, and there is that a little bit of seed of doubt, but you have to just push through, right? And then once you push through, the confidence comes, and then you know you kind of get into that zone, right, into the spirit of painting. This is what I like to call it. So there is something kind of magical about it, and I think a lot of the success successful artists will tell you that sometimes the paintings will just paint themselves, like, like I’ll go back and I’ll look at some of my favorite paintings, and the ones that I like the most, that are most dear to my heart, you know, other artists will also connect with that piece, but then I noticed that the public, or those art collectors, those are the pieces that they just kind of pass by, and you know, and I’m like, oh my gosh, they, you know, and those, those pieces, though, I think become this like little gems, you know, and I look at them, and then I’ll have other artists, like recently I had a show at the Western Art Museum in Kerrville, Texas, and there was two pieces I had in the show, and thankfully they both sold, but one of them sold the opening night, and then the other one sold, you know, a week later, and there was one piece all the artists loved. They didn’t even mention the other one, right? And then all the public that came and spoke to me, they all loved the other painting, and I can share those images with you later. What’s called Ken Spirits, and the other one was called Dream Raven. They were both part of my kind of Native American series that I’m doing right now, but it was just a really interesting, you know, thing to reflect on because. Of you know, how the two minds think differently, you know, as us artists, we see things differently than someone who’s not an artist, right? So, anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 20:16

yeah, that, you know, what, that is so true. I’ve had that happen to me too, where, like, I might make a painting, and, like, wow, this is actually kind of nice, and maybe my artist friends also agree, but then it doesn’t get any attention from non-artists, and I find that that’s also very true with musicians, where a musician’s favorite music is not necessarily a song that the public likes, or they might be like that’s okay, but it just, it’s, but then the musician obviously hears it and thinks, oh my gosh, the chord progressions here, and how they did this movement, and how they did that, you know, it’s yeah, we have a, I guess, as artists, we have like that attunement to the particulars of how something is composed, and like, ah, it’s yeah, it’s hard for an untrained eye, I guess, to catch that, yeah,

Todd Williams: 21:11

yeah, and some of those paintings too, I look back on, and I’m like, I don’t, I don’t even know how I painted it, like, how, how did I do that, and because there is a process that I go through and how I teach also is where you build up like that shape, right, you find and define that edge per se and then you destroy it and then you build it back up, and so it’s kind of a juxtaposition, where, and like James Turner, you know, and let’s see, I’m trying to think, anyway, we’ll come back to that, but it’s kind of like, you know, that openness, right, the kind of the abstractness that you find in some certain areas of a painting, and sometimes as artists we’re like, oh my gosh, how did he do that, and a lot of times that is just a process of like trying things, and then you don’t like it, and you scrape it out, and then you put something else down, and then you smear it around, or whatever, and then the next thing you know, you’re like, “Whoa, I like that, and so you leave it, and how, how, like years later, when you go back and look at that piece, I just don’t, you know, how did I come up with that? I don’t know, but I really love it, so it is part of that, you know, process. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 22:46

yeah, yeah, it’s a funny, happy accidents, and they’re really hard to replicate, for sure. But I wanted to ask you, do you mind elaborating a bit on the spirit of painting?

Todd Williams: 23:00

Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, my faith is important to me, and so when I step into the studio and begin that process, to me that’s a form of worship, you know, and so it’s, you know, there’s something about the very active painting, not always the end product, but just the journey to it, the actual process of creating that I believe is his healing, it has power, and it has the ability, you know, for, for us, just as human beings, you know, to help us be better balanced, really, you know, as human beings, and so sometimes my wife will tell me, man, you’re just so cranky, you need to get back in the studio, you know, and because you know you, you have to wear so many hats as an artist, and you’re doing all this, you’re, you know, doing all that, and you know, and so it’s just, and you forget, oh yeah, I should be in the studio painting, also, and sometimes that gets neglected, and so you know, my wife’s really good at, you know, what you need to get back in there, just, you know, paint, you know, and get alone to yourself, and then when I get into those moments, too, you know, where it’s just yourself, because you know painting is really an isolated, you know, situation, and that’s really good, and you know, sometimes too, you know, just going outdoors and painting in plein air, there’s something about that that I just feel more in tune to my own spirit, but then also the spirit of God, and just. Helps me be more grounded and kind of come back to that balance that I need desperately, and you know, in the world in which we are right now, there’s just so much negativity all the time that it becomes, you know, you have to just shut that off, right, and you have to kind of escape into your own world, and so that happens when, when you get into that painting, and you enter into that zone, and that right brain, to me, that’s when it really is about the spirit. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:41

yeah, yeah, I totally relate to that, because there’s a, you know, there’s so many aspects of painting that is very, it’s almost ritualistic, right, where you take your brushes, you take your paints, and it’s usually the same sort of steps, and it, I find that I also move towards my work a lot more differently when I treat it as more of a sacred space, and just, oh yeah, this is my easel, because it just makes it more special. It makes it gives it more of like a feeling of a spiritual feeling. So I totally relate with that, and it is, there’s.. it feels easier to get into that zone when you do treat the space in that sense as well, at least from my experience. So, I totally, totally agree with, with that. And it’s such a safe.. it’s a safe place, it’s sanctuary as well for artists, since we’re such sensitive people. It’s like, okay, no, I need to hide away for a bit, and you know, untangle all the knots in my head for minutes in my safe space, and then I’ll go back to society, you know.

Todd Williams: 26:51

Yeah, and it takes a while to kind of get into that, right? When you first enter into your studio and you start painting, and so you want to preserve that, you want to make sure nothing interferes with that, and so that’s why again it’s important to kind of try and solve all those issues, you know, more of the left brain thinking, get that out of the way, and so when you get in there, all you can just stay in that right brain the whole time, you know, and and then when you step out, you know, maybe that’s a good time to take a break, to you know, step away, go outside, go for a walk, you know, whatever it may be. I know a lot of times after I finish my paintings, it’s so important to see, like we were talking about, because of the author, you’re so connected to it to see it in a different aspect, right? You know, so you know, as artists, we’ll turn them upside down, we’ll get it through a mirror, we’ll get other people’s opinions, you know, people that we trust. I pop them in a frame, I’ll put them up on the wall, and so when I come in and have breakfast in the morning, and I’ve started on a new piece. I can kind of continue to look at the piece, I can squint at it, I can really just try and analyze it, you know, again with fresh eyes. Now I’ve stepped away from that specific painting, and I’ve moved on, but now I can see it later, you know, maybe it’s a week or two later before I have to send it out, so you know it’s always good. It’s hard for, for all of us artists, I think, you know, because we tend to kind of like procrastinate a little bit, that the deadline comes. Oh no, I got the show coming up, and you know, my painting is still wet,

Laura Arango Baier: 28:44

yeah. Yes, it’s so interesting. I feel like a lot of artists, we procrastinate, but it’s because we know how important it is, so we feel the pressure of, oh man, it’s got to be good, it’s got to be good. But then it turns out all right, you know? I don’t know, you just end up really, really tired, and then you have to recover for a few days, and that sucks, but yeah, yeah. And actually, I wanted to ask you, is there a question that you’re currently chasing in your work? Is there something that you’ve been recently searching for on your canvases?

Todd Williams: 29:20

Well, you know, I think a lot of artists, if they’re honest, they would probably tell you, you know, that there’s, there’s, there’s this, what would be the term, the correct, there’s this battle sometimes to me of like painting something that that I really am excited about, and then also painting something that will sell, and I noticed, and it wasn’t. Always this way, but here recently, like, so, so back in the day, let’s just say, hypothetically, okay, you know, back in the 90s, right, when I first really started painting, you know, as an illustrator, and then went professional in the early 2000s and I remember just talking to other artists and stuff like that. If you did a great painting, I mean, it was just like boom, boom, boom. I mean, you just selling paintings all over the place, and now it’s not so much about a great painting, it’s actually doing something that connects with the viewer, and so now the subject becomes just as important as the painting itself. Obviously, you know, as artists, you know one of my number one things is design, and I, if I, if I’m not happy with my composition or design, there’s no reason in painting it right, and whereas before I just like plop down and paint whatever’s in front of me, and really don’t give any concern to that, but now I really take my time to really make sure that that design is as powerful as possible, you know, based on the subject, you’re a little bit limited, but anyway, that’s to me always a challenge, you know, even at this stage of my career, and so I’ll have ideas, and then I’ll kind of live with them for a while, and then I’ll kind of tweak them a little bit, and you know, bend them here or there, and so there is that little bit of balance between my artistic, creative endeavors, and then also I need to make a living, and you know, paint something that will connect with people, so some artists will say, well, that’s just smart business, and then other artists will say, well, you’re selling out, so you know it’s there, is that challenge, and so for me, I still deal with that, I guess. When you ask that question, that’s kind of what kind of popped into my mind, so

Laura Arango Baier: 32:21

if you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May with our special guest, Deborah Keirce. You can find the sign-up link in the show notes at BoldBrush. We inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. Boldbrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity, and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles, and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that Fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free@boldbrushshow.com that’s B O L D B R U S H show.com The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e-commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So, if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, that’s FASO.com forward slash podcast. It’s, you know, it’s fair, because I think that’s the, you know, the two wolves that we all have inside of us as artists, is the wolf that’s like, I just want to paint what I love, and that’s it, and even if it’s crazy, no one gets it, and then the other wolf that’s like, yeah, but like, we gotta sell stuff, because we need money, so we can’t really paint that really wacky thing that you’ve got on. Mind, unless you have some money already saved up, so you can do that, so it’s, yeah, it’s a bit of a balance, and I think that’s something we all have to deal with as artists, unless we’re unbelievably wealthy and not concerned with selling paintings at all, but we’re not, for the most part,

Todd Williams: 35:19

yeah, you know, you know, just to step back a little bit, you know, it really is a blessing, you know, to be able to say, hey, I can provide for myself and my family by creating artwork, and that alone is a blessing, right? I mean, so I’m thankful, I’m grateful for that. I really truly am. And so we, as artists, we just have to continue to have that thankful heart, you know? No matter what stage we’re at, and the key is always is perseverance, really. It’s not giving up, right, and so for the artists that are watching, you know, today this is that’s really the key. It’s it’s not anything other than just the miles and miles of canvas, the the success and the failures, and all those combine into knowledge, and so one of the things I teach when you approach a new painting is knowledge versus observation. You bring all that knowledge that you have, you know, all those failures, all those successes into your next piece, so that gives you that leg up on the next composition, on the next piece, and so you have to use that to your, your, you know, to your best ability to again solve all the issues, make it easy on yourself. A lot of times, too, when, when I teach workshops, I just got done teaching a workshop in Fredericksburg, and with the DK Fredericksburg art group there, and just a wonderful group of artists, and it’s, but the struggle is always a lot of times the same, as you know, set yourself up for success, you know, and because a lot of times what we do is we choose maybe not the right reference to use, or we choose not the right subject, and you know you need to keep things a little bit more simple in the beginning, so you can kind of build confidence in that, and so again, getting back to the four value planes, if you’re doing landscape painting, those are really important, just to keep those very simple, you know, within the values and those value plans, and then everything else will kind of fall into place, but anyway, this kind of ramble there for a second.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:56

Oh no, but it’s, it’s actually very relevant to my next question, which is perfect, which is actually, when was the turning point for you, where you realized you could make a living as an artist?

Todd Williams: 38:10

Okay, so I want to just share a little story with you, real quick. I ended up doing this entire series in my home state, Nebraska, called the Legacy Nebraska Collection, and this is this is one of the collector set books that I did, and you know we put this together, and so you know it has a really nice pearl encasement, and we had printed 1000 of those and they ended up all selling out, and so I ended up doing a second edition a few years ago, and then we kind of did a different cover on the book for that, but I mean that was really one of the highlights in my career, but what was kind of funny was my wife wrote the editorial bio for that in the introduction of the book, and we went back to my third grade teacher and interviewed her, because it was really back then my mom had got me this set of colored pencils, and I was kind of just taking them, and I had a poster of a tiger on my wall, and I was like, “wow, and so I sat down, and I had this large piece of cardboard, and I did this drawing of a tiger, and colored it in, you know, with all its stripes and stuff, and as I was doing it, and I was laying on the floor, my mom came by, and she’s like, “Wow, you should take that in the show and tell, that’s really good. And I’m like, “What, really? And so the next day was Friday, and I don’t know if you remember, we used to have show and tell on Fridays, and so I brought that in and showed it to my class and showed it to my teacher. It and they just went on and on about it and raved about it and I remember walking home that day and I was carrying this large piece of cardboard and it was like as big as me really and with the Nebraska wind and on the plains I mean I was like whoa then started like coming away from me and but I just remember walking home that day, and I was like, man, I, I really want to be an artist when I grow up, you know, and I almost like, in my heart, I was just like praying to God, and I was like, God, I would, I just would love to be an artist when I grow up, and so when we were doing this bio for the book, we reached out to my third grade teacher, mrs. Hauserman, and she said, “Todd, I remember that day, and you know, of course, this is whatever decades later, right? And she’s like, “I remember, and I looked, there was a.. I think it was a second or third floor was where, where we met, and, and I only lived a few blocks from there, and so I would walk, you know, back and forth to school, and she looked out the window, and she saw me walking home, and she said that she also prayed for me that day, and I was just like, what, and I just like, there was something that you know surpassed, you know, what we can see, right? And that just really touched me. And so, to me, that was that was really the point, and it’s really weird to say, you know, went all the way back to the third grade, but then that was instilled in me. Then later, when I was in high school, my art teacher there, David Jorgensen, he sat down with my parents, and he was like, you know, I was a senior in high school, parent-teacher’s conference, and he was like, I really think Todd should go on and study art, he really has a gift, and my mom was like, oh my gosh, this is so exciting, and my dad’s like, what really, and so he goes, yeah, he repeats himself again. My dad’s like,”What really? And so, anyway, I went on to study at the Central Community College in Columbus, Nebraska. They kind of baby stepped it a little bit, you know, right. And then I transferred to the Art Institute in Kansas City, and I, as I mentioned earlier, I then got my BFA and did an internship with Hallmark Cards, and then right out of graduating I ended up getting a full-time position with Day Spring Cards, and then we moved to Siloam Springs, Arkansas, me and my family, my daughter was a year and a half at the time, and so it was just such a, you know, great transition, you know, for me as an artist, and then after working for them for 10 years, I stepped away to pursue really my own voice, right, to really be professional fine artists, and but before I stepped away completely, and with the mentorship and influence from CW Mandi, he was helping me and looking at my work, and he said,”Todd, I really feel like you’re ready, and so it’s actually 1999 when I approached the Legacy Gallery in Scottsdale, I had won a scholarship to study at the Scottsdale Artist School, and while I was there, I mean, there’s just like a mecca of galleries, I thought, you know, here’s my chance to maybe get into a gallery, and not only did I get into Legacy Gallery, but I ended up getting into the Meyer Gallery in Santa Fe through my connections there, because they, at that time, they had a gallery in Scottsdale, so that really was really.. I remember we went back to the hotel, and my wife and I, and our daughter, and I gave them the good news that I actually got to, you know, top galleries in the United States, you know, here in one fell swoop, and we’re jumping up on the bed, you know, hey, holding hands, jumping up on the bed, and celebrating, and it was just, you know, a beautiful time, and so that to me was really, again, just a great stepping stone, because once, once I got into those two galleries, I continued to work full time. I went to my wife, I went to my family, and I said, you know, I really need to dedicate some time separate from 41 Working 40 hours a week, and so they allowed me every Saturday to get into the studio to produce paintings, you know, for those galleries, right. So once that started to really flow, I started to be able to provide for the galleries. I felt more confident than in stepping away, which was basically three years later. I mean, I love my job at Dayspring. It was so, so great, and I love all the people there, and so it was hard for me to step away, but once I did, that very first year I doubled my income. So, I mean, it’s just, you know, anyway, I feel like that that was a turning point, and then the second turning point was really in 2011 you know, we kind of went through the recession of 2007 2008 you know, there’s a little bit of hangover, and so a lot, some of my galleries were kind of slow, and you know, we weren’t selling a whole lot, and so I was going home to Nebraska for my mom’s birthday, which was in May, and this was 2011 and I had already done a series of paintings and had some solo exhibitions with my series from Vienna and Prague. This painting right here is the St. Charles Bridge from Prague, and then I ended up doing another because I was so successful, that was at the Meyer Gallery in Santa Fe. I did another series from Italy, and then I was like, okay, I love doing these series of paintings. How about I actually end up doing a series from my home state of Nebraska? And so that’s when this idea came to me in 2011 to kind of go into the different counties of Nebraska, and I started in my hometown of Central City, Nebraska, which was Mary County, and then I started with some of the surrounding counties in doing those, and I sat down with Michael Smith, he was the executive director of the State Historical Society of Nebraska, and this was 2012 and I was sharing him with my idea, my vision of doing this series of paintings, so he, he goes, Well, when do you expect to have all these paintings done? And I said, well, I’m going to give myself five years, so 2017 Well, that’s when he was like, oh my gosh, well, you know what 2017 is? And I said, no. He said, well, that’s Nebraska Sesquicentennial, and so I was like, okay, Susque, what, what’s that term, and ended up just everything kind of fell into place, he put me in charge, or in contact with the Nebraska 150 Commission, because that was Nebraska’s 100/50 statehood anniversary, and then later I was able to meet with the governor and the First Lady, and they were just like, we love what you’re doing, we want this to be a part of our celebration for Nebraska Sesquicentennial, and just everything kind of started to fall into place, and so they really selected me then to be the exclusive artist to represent the state of Nebraska, and that took five years of my life, and so in 2012 I went to all those galleries. At that time, I did have seven galleries that represented me nationally, and I had to say to them, I said, I have this unbelievable chance, this, you know, opportunity, you know, for myself as an artist, and just because of my love for my home state of Nebraska to do this, and they were all very much in favor of that, and he encouraged me and said yes, you know, we support you in this, go for it. And so, for me, as we traveled throughout the state, excuse me, Nebraska PBS station ended up doing a 60 minute documentary, also, and so they would travel around with us, and as we would go into the different counties, you know, meet with each county historical society, we’d also meet with some of the local historians, and so what I was trying to do was gather information to find out really. What would be the one thing if you had to just pick one thing to identify with that county within the state, and so that was hard at times, and, and very interesting, the whole business side of that, the sponsors, the logistics of that exhibition, because it ended up being 123 works of art. Well, what do I do with all those paintings? And then it was going to be a statewide traveling exhibition in 2017 you know, during the Susque Centennial celebration. So there was a lot of logistics things there. There’s things on the business side that you know we, I can probably talk about for hours about how that came about. But anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:53

that sounds very stressful,

Todd Williams: 50:56

though. That’s a lot.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:57

Oh my gosh, yeah. Because it’s like it’s a beautiful idea, and it’s amazing also because it’s something I’ve been thinking about in the last few weeks, which is how there’s this thing that happens through an artist, an artist’s career, where, like, at the very beginning, you know, we reach out and find opportunities, but then there comes a point where we start making our own opportunities that makes sense, kind of like how you did, you’re like, oh, well, I should just paint my home state, because I mean, my paintings over there did great, so I want to, you know, do something for my home state, and then, bam, you get all of these, it’s like, it’s like opening Pandora’s box, except, of course, it has much better things in there, but it’s yeah, you just, you had your own, you know, you made your own opportunity by accident, and it really just comes from like that hit with inspiration, and then you just go for it, you just ask the right people about it, you start investigating, and suddenly you get a lot of people on board, and I think that’s a huge testament to the importance of following that instinct and following that inspiration, and just make your own opportunities, because, like, they’re not going to fall on your lap willy nilly, you know. We all hope, we all wish, but that doesn’t always happen like that.

Todd Williams: 52:13

Yes, that’s that’s really a good point. I’m glad you brought that up, because to me it was kind of a god thing, because I didn’t really plan for all that, right? I just kind of wanted, just from my own heart and passion. I just had always thought, wow, you know, I’ve done these series in Europe, but I would love to do a series in my home state, and then when that’s once that started, it kind of ended up into something even greater than I had originally purchased, and now, or it really thought of, but for me that really has then moved into, in a very natural way, my next series, because when I was in my home state of Nebraska, and learning some of the history, and going into the counties, I learned a lot more about the Native Americans. Right, I learned a lot more about their story, and how important it was to not only the state of Nebraska, but a lot of states, you know, within the United States of America. And so I just love that. I love some of the history, I loved learning more about it, and so that kind of wanted me to dive into it even more. And part of the Legacy of Nebraska series, I did do several Native American pieces to represent some of those counties, and so it’s really became a natural evolution to now do this next series, as which I’ve been currently working on since then, and so I wanted to kind of do just, you know, faces, you know, and I, I’ve always loved portraits, I love faces, but I never really tackled that very much, I always did. You know, in the beginning, you know, they, a lot of this, you know, if you go any type of any academic, you know, school, or you know, go over into Europe, you know, and and join in on some of those academic art schools or workshops, or whatever. They always tell you to start with the still life first, right? You’re dealing with one light, one light source, you know? You got your highlights, mid tones, you got your shadows, so it’s very simple, right? You know, keep everything as simple as possible. Then, as you can successfully accomplish that subject, you move to the landscape. Once you kind of then get that honed in, then you kind of move to the figure or portraits, right? And so, for me, I’ve always wanted. It to do more figurative work. I’ve always wanted to do more portrait work, and so that’s kind of what that led into with my current series within more of the Western genre, and specifically some of the Native American subject matter.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:19

Awesome. Yeah, and that’s.. I feel like painting is.. I like to say it’s a gift that keeps on giving, where there are endless things to learn, just endless.. you think you.. if you think you’ve learned it all, you.. you’re wrong, because the more you.. you’ve.. you paint, the more you realize there’s so much more to know, and it’s a lifetime or more of learning, and it’s.. it can be very daunting, but I think that’s great. I love those portraits, the ones with the red background, or the.. it’s.. they’re so.. yeah.. or the blue background. It’s very beautiful, because there’s a starkness to them and an expressiveness at the same time, or they’re very. like their presence, you know,

Todd Williams: 56:03

yes, and it, you know, to me too, as an artist, you want to do something that stands out a little bit, you, you want to be unique, but it’s hard to be unique when everything’s already been done, right? So you know, but you kind of keep trying, you know? You just, you have to just keep trying, and I know the most successful artists, like a lot of galleries that you know, directors and people I used to work with, gallery owners and things like that, they would say, you know, Todd, you just, you should just do one thing and just stick to that one thing and just do that one thing well, that way you can be known for that one thing, and I said, well, and it’s probably because of my illustration background, you know, too, it’s just painting multiple different things, and having to be like I said, a jack of all trades. I had a, I had a paint in acrylic, watercolor, Karen Doss crayons, you know, pastels. I mean, you know, we did silk painting, we did etchings, I mean, we did everything, you know, just whatever you can think about for two dimensional artwork, you know. I’ve done it, and you know, maybe I was kind of good at that, but I wasn’t great. And so, yeah, there is, there is that, there is that truth. If you just paint the same thing over and over and over and over again, you’re going to get really have a lot of knowledge for that subject, but it’s really, then I, that’s why I like to do things in a series, you know, like I’ll do a series, and then once I feel like that series has kind of reached its, you know, moment in time, then I’ll kind of move on to something else, and maybe it’s a slight, slight tweak here and there, but, but I do notice that I do notice that within the commercial realm that the most successful artists will pretty much paint the same painting over and over again, but they just change the composition, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the same subject matter, I guess, is what I’m trying to say, and not that there’s anything wrong with that, you know, because there is the business side of things, but for me, I do want to challenge myself, especially at those times where I’m feeling kind of blase about things, like, okay, well, what am I going to do next, I really want to challenge myself to try, and you know, not necessarily reinvent myself, but just create something that maybe that I don’t see out there right now. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 58:54

yeah, yeah, and I like, we mentioned earlier, it’s those two wolves, there’s the one that’s like, I want to try all of these new paintings and new things, and then the the other wolf, it’s like, well, but galleries want you to create a product that they can rely on, because they’re a business, and you’re like, yeah, I know, I totally understand that, I think that’s what we all kind of have to face at some point, because we’re not, we’re not stagnant creatures, right? We’re not gonna, I mean, sure, maybe someone out there is blessed enough to really want to paint the exact same thing forever, but I, I highly doubt that, because I feel like, as humans, you know, you evolve, we change, we age, we experience new things. It’s impossible to always paint the same thing forever, just because of that, you know. We’re always going to evolve, we’re always going to change, and therefore our work is naturally going to do the same as well. So, I think it’s, it’s a little bit funny, because the. Salaries, and you know, buyers, they want something that’s exact, something that’s always going to be the same, something that’s always reliable, and, like, yes, we can rely that this artist always paints these trees really well with the sunset, but then, of course, that artist might be like a little bit tired of the trees with the sunset, because I feel like I’ve already, you know, done it a lot of times, so yeah, I think that’s one of those hard parts of like trying to step outside of that gallery’s comfort zone and have that conversation with them about, well, I want to explore this direction a bit, and coming to, you know, some sort of compromise about it as well,

Todd Williams: 1:00:43

and I think if, if you know, if I’m, if I’m honest, and if you talk to other professional artists and they’re honest, they’ll tell you that we go through seasons right within our career, and sometimes it is important to build those relationships and kind of paint what they want, right, and so you obviously need to make money, you need to be successful, you need to provide for yourself, and you know, provide for your family, and and so there there are those decisions that you know during that season of life that it’s it’s important that you probably, you know, choose those wisely, but then later, you know, you’ll go through other seasons and stuff like that, where you know there’s more important things than money, you know, and what are we going to do, like, like, I, I’m by far not rich or anything, but I make a good living, you know. I’m able to provide for my family, you know. I have a good home. How much money do I really need to be happy? And what, what is more important, you know? And so there’s for, for me, it’s the difference between striving and being led, and so I always just kind of really want to not strive in what I’m doing, but be led in what I’m doing, you know, and again, that just comes from, you know really seeking right, you know what, what seeking wisdom for really what what is the proper direction for your career, and each person is going to be in a different season, and so it’s always good to you know make those decisions and have that wisdom accordingly to what season you’re in.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:46

Yeah, yeah, and I love that, because that segues perfectly into my next question, which is, How has your definition of success evolved as your career has progressed?

Todd Williams: 1:03:00

Yeah, that’s, you know, answered that, I guess, in some ways is, you know, as you know, again, I’ve been paying out professionally now on my own for 25 years, I guess you could say, even those 10 years was still, I was still a professional artist, even though I was working for a company, you know, like Hallmark and Dayspring, but yeah, it really.. when I did that Legacy Nebraska series, to that entire collection of work, I loved it. I mean, it was so great. I mean, I started it, you know, when I was in my 40s, and then when I ended it, I was 50, and I was like, what happened to my 40s? But you know, I love painting so much, you know, and I like, I was telling you about the seven galleries, and I would get into the studio and my wife would come in and hey, you gotta eat, you need to eat supper. Oh yeah, I guess I should eat. Okay, and then she’d go, you know, it’s like midnight, I’m going to bed, you should probably come to bed. I’m like, well, I’m just going to paint for a couple more hours, and then the next thing I know, the sun’s coming up, I mean, this, this would literally happen to me, and I’m like, wow, but you know, you just get into it, I have, you know, just have so much, so much passion, and so much love for it, the time just flies by, and I don’t feel tired all the time, but now I’ve done that kind of caught up with me a little bit, and I had some shoulder issues, actually in both shoulders, and and so I had to start listening to my body a little bit more, and so now I’ll paint, and then maybe the next. Day, I won’t paint, I’ll kind of give my body a little bit of break, you know, not that I have to, but I’m just trying to be smart about it. And I avoided surgery, I didn’t have to have surgery, like I talked to some of my other peers and stuff, and they’ve had, excuse me, shoulder surgeries, and you know, other things have happened, you know, throughout their career and stuff like that, and I’ve always been careful. I don’t like to take medication, I like to be really natural, and you know, everything I take or what I put in my body, and so just to me now at this point my career, my health is really important to me, and so my art is still really important, but I have to listen and have wisdom about that, and then also then when it comes to the finances, you know, we’re at a point now where you know we’re more secure in our finances, I guess you could use the term I’m not as hungry as I was when I was younger, and that hunger can be great, that can help you know feed you and your success, but yeah, so that has changed for me, and I don’t produce as many paintings, you know, every year like I used to, but that’s okay, you know, I’m okay with that, and I’m very selective now on what I choose to do, like the different shows I’m in, the different galleries I’m in, you know, all those things, there’s so many opportunities for artists out there, which is great. I think there’s no better time to be alive and be an artist than now, because there’s more people that have knowledge of the arts, there’s more art appreciation, there’s so many great things that are going for us right now as artists, and there might be a multitude of more artists out there, you know, producing and wanting to become artists, but that’s great, I embrace that, there’s enough room for all of us to be successful, there really is, so it shouldn’t be a competition, but for me, like, I have more contentment in my heart to just live in the moment, and I think in one of our earlier discussions, my, my daughter Jessica has been able to help me, and it’s taken a while, but to set, sit back, relax, you know, and enjoy the moment that we have, because I think sometimes I’ve always been this person that I’m always doing this, so I can then attain that later, and I miss out on this, the moment that I have right now, and when I did the Legacy Nebraska collection, that did help me, though. It helped me, you know, when I stepped away from the galleries, and I began to just kind of travel throughout my home state. I did really enjoy that process, and it’s really about those relationships that I built as I look back now. I think those relationships were more important to me than even the work that was accomplished, and so I always, you know, if I have an opportunity, I always like to tell people that art, when you’re actually painting, it’s all about relationships, because you have to relate that one value next to the other value, you know, your darkest dark, your lightest light, that edge, you know how sharp or hard is that edge compared to this soft or even lost edge, here, you know, how what’s the highest chroma in your painting, and where should you place that, and then being selective on that, you know, because if you have so much chroma everywhere, it’s kind of chaos, right? And so something needs to kind of play the lead, you know, I want my paintings to be poetic and have that great power and centrality of focus within it, and so you have to use much reserve, but for me that came really from just, you know, stepping back, you know, and really analyzing things, you know, thinking more and painting less, and try and live in the moment and enjoy the moment, because before you know it, you know it’s gone, and so, but where I wanted to go with the relationships was there. Are only really two things that have eternal value in my mind, is our relationship with God and our relationship with each other. Most relationships will continue and have eternal value, and the things, these other things, you know, they are what they are, but just enjoy the process, you know, enjoy life now, where it’s at, and that, that would be the best advice I could give, you know, any, any artist listening today, it’s just enjoy where you’re at, and, and it’ll come, you know, keep working hard, keep persevering, don’t give up because you’ve been given that gift for a reason, so keep going, you got this, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:54

bravo. Yes, yes, I like to say that the journey is the destination, yeah, because it, it really, like, you know, when you start living in a moment, like you’re saying, it really makes you.. I don’t know, it feels like you relish it more. There’s, there’s more feeling in it, and sometimes, you know, you can look at a painting you did and look at a certain spot and be like, I remember exactly how I felt when I painted that spot, or what I was listening to, or, you know, or the conversation I had with So and So at that moment, and you start, you know, kind of embedding your work with your memories and the moments that you felt at that time, which is really beautiful too.

Todd Williams: 1:11:35

Yeah, that’s so true. I remember some of my trips, like, as you were talking, or reminded me of when I took a trip to Martha’s Vineyard, and I had a gallery there, and I was painting, and like when I got back home, and I had those plein air paintings, like those were just so precious to me, because each one held a memory, and so I ended up doing like just larger studio paintings based on my plain error studies, so I could keep those, like, and I still have those, you know, for my own personal collection, and CW Monday told me one time, too, like, even with, you know, you see my some of my European collection behind me, this is part of that, some of those solo exhibitions that I had at the Meyer Gallery, and I was just like, he was just like, you know, after all those series of pieces that you do, hold back a couple paintings, you know, keep some for yourself, you know, because that’s your maybe that’s your retirement, you know, maybe that’s a painting later, you know, right now it’ll sell for 10,020 years from now it’ll sell for 50,000 you know, you know that’s our hope, but yeah, I like to hang on to some of my paintings for my personal collection, because they do mean so much to me, and you’re right, it’s attachment to that moment in time,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:59

yeah, that’s that’s very smart, and also very, yeah, that’s I should start doing that too. Just start keeping some of my better pieces, and once I have like a good breadth of them,

Todd Williams: 1:13:13

don’t have to sell them all.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:15

Yeah, that is, that’s a good point. I think, of course, at first, when you’re early career, it’s harder to have that, just because I feel like when you’re starting out, it’s a lot harder to get like really, really, really good paintings, of course, and then as you start building that up, then it gets easier, but yeah, yeah, and then speaking also of exhibitions and shows and workshops, do you have any shows, anything coming up that you’d like to tell us about?

Todd Williams: 1:13:43

Oh, yeah. Well, I actually will be teaching with the Indiana Heritage Arts Group in Nashville, Indiana, and that’s part of the Brown County Art Gallery, also, and they’re celebrating their anniversary, and I was really honored, because I don’t know if you know much about the Brown County Art Group, but they had basically a colonization that was taking place there at the turn of the century, and you should, should Google that, Brown County artists, and similar to what was going on in Taos, right, you know, a lot of people are familiar with the Taos artist colonization in the early 1900s but the same thing was going on in this little town of Nashville, Indiana, which they call Brown County, and anyway, they asked me to come and teach a workshop there to their members, and so I’ll be doing that here later on this month, in May, and then I’ll be going back to my home state of Nebraska to Central City and teaching a workshop there in with the. Barrett County Museum, and last year was the first year that I did that, and they weren’t actually officially open, but they’re actually open now. It’s a brand new facility that they were able to get funding for, and so for me to go back to my hometown, you know, it’s just really great, and you know, my mom and dad still live there. My wife’s mom still lives there. You know, we have siblings that live there, and so that workshop is going to be june 29 30th, and july 1. It’s a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, kind of leading up to the Fourth of July weekend, so all that information is on my website, Todd Williams Fine art.com You can kind of go under the info. There’ll be like a workshop section specifically for that. As far as shows go, you know, I don’t really have.. we just got done with the Western Art Museum with the Roundup, which is an annual show that I do every year, and then I’ll be doing a four-person show with them in 2028 and that’ll be in September of 2028 and so that’s, you know, some pieces that I’m working on now, and kind of setting aside the Settlers West Gallery kind of represents me, I’ve been a part of their miniature show, and last year I was part of their, their fall show that they do, and that’s in Tucson, Arizona, and the other thing is I am the executive director of a nonprofit art group here in Northwest Arkansas, and we, about three years ago we started a process where we went into some of the state and national parks, and we held plain air events, and so at those plain air events we would give out cash awards, you know, we’d have prizes, merchandise awards, they would paint for, you know, two or three days, and then we’d have like an exhibition, and then award ceremony. So we did that at seven different locations throughout the state of Arkansas. And then this year, in 2026 in January, that body of work, it’s a 50 works of art with 25 artists, it has their plein air painting. They selected one of the plein air paintings from one of the parks, and then as a study, and then they also then a did a studio painting based on that smaller plein air study. So it’s kind of like a fill to finish exhibition where viewers can come in and see that process of the artists that kind of go through, and then that’ll be traveling throughout the entire state of Arkansas for 2026 and 2027 So this is kind of the book that we put together. Also, it’s a celebration of nature and art, painting the art itself parks and Governor Huckabee Sanders, she wrote a really nice two-paragraph quote for us for the exhibition, and then Shay Lewis, who’s the executive director of the parks department and the secretary, he also wrote the forward for a book, and we kind of used some of those quotes, you know, in the exhibition, and we have that show opening up, and it’s called Arts on Main, it’s a museum in Van Buren, Arkansas, and we have an opening reception on that on may 15, but you could go to that website if you’re interested, it’s Heart of America artist.com and that’s plural artist.com so Heart of America, so

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:14

yeah,

Todd Williams: 1:19:14

a lot of stuff going on, so it keeps me busy,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:17

yeah, yeah, and I’ll include all of the links in the show notes as well, so if anyone’s interested, they can just go to the show notes and find the links there. But yeah, thank you so much, Todd, for the conversation and for the inspiration. And yeah, it’s.. it’s.. I have a lot of notes now.

Todd Williams: 1:19:38

Thank you, Laura. I appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:40

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For today’s episode we sat down with Linda Doll, an 84‑year‑old lifelong multimedia artist. Linda shares how a childhood spent drawing in Brooklyn and studying at the Brooklyn Museum eventually led her to pursue art seriously after age 30, culminating in graduating with honors in painting and printmaking. She describes a pivotal moment with California watercolorist Rex Brandt, whose advice to “start with your strength” helped her stop imitating others, list her own strengths, and finally claim her unique artistic voice. Linda explains that when she began painting her family and scenes of peaceful, everyday life purely for herself, that work unexpectedly became her signature style, winning major awards, building an international reputation, and leading to teaching engagements around the world. She emphasizes that artists should find a niche at the intersection of what they love, what they’re good at, and what others respond to, while being realistic about business: pricing low at first, raising prices gradually, and building a solid collector base. Linda also shares practical and philosophical advice on staying creative over a lifetime—working in series, experimenting with multiple media, adapting to physical limitations, and maintaining a daily practice of “wetting the brush” or drawing. Above all, she urges aspiring full‑time artists to be themselves, trust their inner voice, and use their personal strengths so they’re leading with their own vision rather than constantly chasing trends. Finally, Linda tells us about her upcoming demos and urges us to keep up with her events by visiting her website!

Linda’s FASO Site:
lindadoll.com/

Linda’s Tutorials and Mentorship:
lindadoll.com/page/13300/videos-and-classes

Linda’s YouTube Channel:
youtube.com/@lindadoll

Linda’s Social Media:
facebook.com/lindaadoll/
instagram.com/lindadoll5/

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Transcript:

Linda Doll: 0:00

Yes. And again, I think a lot of artists, they don’t know who they are, they don’t know where they want to go, they don’t know what their style is, what is their artistic voice? And what I learned is it’s your own voice. It’s the voice you already have. But we’re afraid to use. Rex once said to me, if you are copying somebody else, or if you’re not using your strength, you’re always running to catch up. If you use your strength in your own voice, you’re always two steps ahead and everyone’s trying to catch you. Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe the Fortune favors of BOLDBRUSH. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn about or sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others we’re in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Linda doll, an 84 year old, lifelong multimedia artist, Linda shares how a child had spent drawing in Brooklyn and studying at the Brooklyn Museum eventually led her to pursue art seriously after age 30, culminating and graduating with honors in painting and printmaking, she describes a pivotal moment with California watercolorist Rex Brandt, whose advice to start with your Strength helped her Stop imitating others, list her own strengths and finally claim her own unique artistic voice. Linda explains that when she began painting her family and scenes of peaceful everyday life purely for herself, that work unexpectedly became her signature style, winning major awards, building an international reputation and leading to teaching engagements around the world. She emphasizes that artists should find a niche at the intersection of what they love, what they’re good at, and what others respond to while being realistic about business, pricing low at first, raising prices gradually and building a solid collector base. Linda also shares practical and philosophical advice on staying creative over a lifetime, working in series, experimenting with multiple media, adapting to physical limitations and maintaining a daily practice of wetting the brush or drawing above all. She urges aspiring, full time artists to be themselves, trust their inner voice and use their personal strengths so they’re leading with their own vision, rather than constantly chasing trends. Finally, Linda tells us about her upcoming demos and urges us to keep up with her events by visiting her website. Welcome Linda to the FASO podcast. How are you today? I am fabulous. Thank you. Awesome. I’m so excited to have you because you have an incredible breadth of work and technique, and you’re such an explorative artist. And it’s really wonderful to talk to someone who just goes with the flow and just goes wherever their their inspiration takes them. Because I find that to be really inspiring. I think many of us hear the tip of like, Oh, you got to focus on one thing. But I think not for everyone. You know, I don’t think it works for everyone, and I love that you really have made it work for you. So I’m really happy to have you and to be able to pick your brain. Oh, thank you. Welcome, yeah. But before we dive into more of your work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do? I’m an 84 year old artist, still working, still producing, still absolutely loving art, still loving learning, still enjoying experimenting, as you just said, I I love trying new things and just just really, you know, pilots love to fly, and they get paid well. And I always figured that artists work hard, and we should get paid well, but they love to fly and I love to produce art. So that’s been my philosophy my whole life.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:50

Yes, and that’s a great philosophy to have, because I think, obviously, you know, the economy is important, but at the same time, I mean, if you’re going to be painting something that makes you miserable, you might as well get a normal day job, because then you know for sure your paycheck is coming in, you know. But yeah. And then, since you’ve been painting for a very long time, I wanted to ask you as well, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist

Linda Doll: 4:20

as child, I spent every moment I had drawing. I would draw my own paper dolls, and I would draw the clothing for them, and I would sit on a blanket. I lived in Brooklyn, New York, in a in an apartment house. I wasn’t allowed out to play. We didn’t have a backyard, so my mother would lay a blanket down in the foyer, and I would sit on the blanket and pretend I was on the beach, and she would give me a picnic lunch that I would sit and I would draw for hours, and then she would take me to the Brooklyn Museum, and I would it was the only place that was cool in Brooklyn. And it was during the period when polio was a national epidemic, and so you weren’t allowed to get hot or be out in the sun or be out in the heat. And the Brooklyn Museum was a big stone building that was cool. And so I would go take several art classes and drawing classes, and I would spend a good amount of my summer at the Brooklyn Museum. So I actually have been drawing since I was little, but I was not good enough to be in the art club in high school. I hate to say this. I think the nun just wanted girls that would become nuns, and I wasn’t good material, so I thought I wasn’t good enough. And so many artists go through the period where they doubt themselves, where they don’t think they’re good enough, where they almost walk away from it because they’ve been embarrassed by teachers that that said they weren’t good or they didn’t do something right. And so I didn’t do art then for a while. And then after my children were born, an adult ed teacher was teaching a watercolor class, an oil class, actually, at a local school. And I want, I thought, Oh, I think I’ll go take a class. And she was the one that really encouraged me to not just do it as a hobby, but to do it seriously, that I had talent and that I should use it. And so then I went to junior college and went to college, and I didn’t graduate college until my daughter graduated high school. So even though I always drew and I always painted, I didn’t really take it serious until I was what 30 years old, and I graduated with honors, with painting and printmaking from San Diego State, and everything was so easy and fun for me and I, I just loved it. And so that’s when I got really, really serious. And we moved about that time. Well before that, we moved from, well, we moved from New York to New Jersey to to Massachusetts to Florida, then to California. When I came out here, I fell in love with the California School of watercolor and Rex Brandt and George post and George Gibson. And I was very fortunate to be able to study with all of them, Millard sheets, you name, the whole California school. And I had the opportunity to take workshops or classes from every one of them, but I realized I wasn’t really a Californian. I was, I almost want to say, by coastal, the New York influence. I couldn’t quite get rid of there was this back and forth, so I spent a lot of time trying to be somebody else. And again, I think a lot of artists, they don’t know who they are, they don’t know where they want to go, they don’t know what their style is, they don’t know what their personality is. You know their voice? What is their artistic voice? And what I learned is, it’s your own voice. It’s the voice you already have, but we’re afraid to use and so we spend a lot of time copying other people, or looking at other work and thinking, Oh, I could do that. Oh, I could do that. But Rex once said to me, if you are copying somebody else, or if you’re not using your strength, you’re always running to catch up. If you use your strength in your own voice, you’re always two steps ahead and everyone’s trying to catch you. And I really liked that statement, and I remember he gave a lecture on Start with your strength, this exact topic. And when he was done, I was very puzzled, because it didn’t make sense to me. So I went up to him and I said, Rex, if that’s true, why do you keep telling me not to draw so much? I know California painters like to draw direct. I mean, paint direct, but why if I like to draw Do you tell me not to? And he thought about it for a minute, and then he said to me, I guess because it’s not my strength. And that was the day I found my voice, and I decided I went home from that workshop. I was fortunate enough to be his assistant every summer for four summers, and to stay in his home and be with he and his wife, Joan Irving Brandt, who are fabulous artists. And I went home and I decided that I. Had to make a list of what are my strengths and what are my weaknesses, and how could I use my strengths and stop always fighting my weaknesses? And so I decided that drawing was my strength, organization was my strength, the grid system was my strength. Very clean, transparent color was my strength. Mixing color was my strength, and I made a list of what I wasn’t good at. And impromptu was not I was not good at impromptu. I wasn’t good on just sitting in front of a piece of paper and trying to imagine this whole painting. I like to see something, even if it was just the corner of the room and the shadows in the way the corner one wall played against the other. I need to see something to get inspired. And so I made this list. And about that time, my dad died, and I realized I had never painted anyone in my family, especially my dad, and I decided that I wanted to do my family in happy, healthy times, and I wasn’t going to worry about who bought it. I wasn’t going to worry about who liked it. I was going to paint a whole series of paintings for me. Well, that opened an entire world. So I did my mother sitting on the beach with my nieces and nephews. I did my husband with his son, my daughter on his shoulders. I did children playing nicely, and mother sitting relaxing, reading a book, I did all the things that I wanted my life to have was almost like I was painting the world I wanted to see. And one I had a party at my house. There was an artist in town, and everybody that came in went into my studio, and they came out with their I hadn’t showed the series to anybody. I had about 20 paintings, and I thought they were just color drawings, and nobody would like them, and they were just my family. And I wasn’t being serious, but I was enjoying myself. Every one of them came out and told me that that was my voice, that was who I was. That’s what I needed to do. I sent one to AWS and got one in immediately. I sent one to NWS, got in immediately, got my signature in both organizations. Won top awards in every show I entered, was asked to jury all over the world. My paintings went on a travel several travel shows for both organizations, people around the world saw my work and invited me to come teach in their state. So I’ve taught in every state and in probably 30 countries around the world, and all because I was doing something that I absolutely loved and meant something to me. And my people would ask, When is your painting successful? And I would say, when someone takes one moment and takes a deep breath, looks at it, and just takes one moment of silence in the day, or one minute of peace in the day. I’m not going to paint a Guernica. That’s not who I am. I’m not going to paint the atrocities of war. I think it’s wonderful that someone else does that, but it’s not me. I wanted to give pleasure and joy and peace to people. I’m a mother, and my aura is blue. I mean, I am the nurse, the mother, the you know, I take care of people, and so my paintings needed to do the same thing. I know that sounds kind of corny, but that’s, you ask me what I do, that’s what I do.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:05

Yeah, yeah. And your work definitely transmits a lot of peace and tranquility and calmness, and even just your use of color, you know, it, it’s, it’s so like these beautiful washes and, yeah, I can totally see, you know why I

Linda Doll: 14:23

paint every painting, no matter how large it is, with three colors, only

Laura Arango Baier: 14:28

awesome,

Linda Doll: 14:29

one red, one yellow and one blue. I use the printers colors. I use cyan, magenta and reproduction yellow. And I love mixing my own color. Absolutely love mixing color. To me, that’s just sheer pleasure. It’s food for my soul.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:46

Yeah, yeah. And actually, it’s so funny that you mentioned that I recently got myself cyan magenta and like, a proper yellow to try that out, because I know that you can actually mix red from that, which is something that people don’t realize. Mix red with like the magenta and the yellow.

Linda Doll: 15:03

Okay, on my web page, I actually have a full demonstration of me doing a painting that I did for Bulgaria, and I kept a copy of it and put it on my web page, and I take you through step by step and and wash by wash. So if anybody’s interested? It’s www Linda doll com, and it’s right on there,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:26

yeah, and I can also add the link to that in the show notes. So

Linda Doll: 15:31

yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:31

anyone out there,

Linda Doll: 15:32

they just enjoy seeing it. It’s a very different way to work. I work in I work in layers, almost as if it’s funny. When I was when I was, well, I’m still a teacher, but when I had some larger classes, I used to have people look at cards, calendars on the internet. Well, we didn’t have as much internet then, but any books and find something that they wish they had painted and they would have shown to a kindergarten teacher, a college instructor and a gallery owner of a gallery, they wanted to get in something that that they would show to a wide range of people and say, This is my this is my best work I did, and I did it myself as well, and I found out everything I loved was a Sarah graph, but I didn’t want to do serigraphs. But I got the idea that if I kind of did my watercolors as if I were doing a serigraph, layer by layer, that I could please myself. And that’s part of how my whole system, or not system, but my style developed. And so they’re very, very I wait for one layer to dry. You’ll, I mean, if you see the video, it’s, it really does explain exactly what I do. And so it became, I became very well known in my area, and especially in the gallery that I was in, and everybody wanted a painting of their family. I could do, I mean, I could have done commissions. I mean, I couldn’t do, I couldn’t do enough of them that, you know. I mean, they take time, and we some we talk about pricing. My pricing was fairly high for a watercolor and for what people were surprised that I was able to get the money that I could. But it’s all supply and demand. So if you have something that nobody else is doing and that they can’t get anywhere else. And if you’re lucky enough to find a family, which I did, who was very popular in town, who had me do their family, and everyone who came to their house then wanted one of their family. So yeah, supply and demand, find out where your audience is. Find out what are you good at, and what do people like that you do, and how can you combine that to make yourself very unique. And I know one of the questions you had asked me was, how do you find your voice, and how do you find your collector base? And part of it is finding being unique if you’re doing what everyone else is doing, it’s hard. It is a hard business anyway, so if you have something nobody else is doing. So I would ask artists, what do you love? What sport do you play? What hobby do you have? Maybe you want to just paint. I mean, you might not want to do figures, but if you did, maybe you want to do golfers on the golf course. I mean, there’s a market that boy you want to put, put one or two in the golf club. Everybody will want their painting on the golf course. So you know, or if you flowers, if you love to paint flowers, find a way to do them a little differently and then show them at the at a floral show, or show them at a botanical garden, or show them somewhere where people are really interested in flowers, and you might even or if You like pets, you might at the at your groomers. You may put your your paintings at your groomers or at your veterinarian. So figure out what it is you really love. What are you good at? What what paintings have people commented most of yours. When people come into your studio, what do they see? And say, Oh, I love that one. That’s your answer. That’s your clue. And like I say, Find something you do differently, and most of the time it’s something you’re already doing in your life. If you love to cook, maybe you want to paint vegetables. Tools and and kitchen stuff, and find a kitchen store or a gallery that that appreciates or do the the kitchen things differently. But that’s what I really strive for people to find where their heart is, what, what do they love, and then figure a way to paint that. And if you’re an abstract painter, then find a find a way to do your abstracts a little differently. Go to a furniture store and see what colors they’re showing. And maybe you could do your abstracts in that and show it in a furniture store. I know that everyone wants to be in a high class Gallery, and they want to have, you know, this high reputation, but the market is really hard right now. So if you want to make a living as an artist, you may have to start somewhere else, and then then you have the collector base to go to a gallery and say, yes, I’ve sold 200 paintings at the furniture store. I’ve sold so many paintings here my you know, my vet sells paintings every month. You need to have that collector base, or that that resume, that you have people like what you do, and they want to pay for it. And too many artists, I think, want to start out at the top, and they don’t want to work their way up. I’m sorry, but that’s a reality, and we all do that. It meet me as well. You know, it’s just yeah, but there are ways, if somebody really wants to try to make it, then the other way is classes. You know, having some classes, you might even start in your own studio, or you might start with adult ed programs. And a lot of times, students will buy paintings. And then I was working at the at the junior college when I got a call from Johanna Morell, who ran Flying Colors art workshops, and she took Americans all over the world on art workshops, and asked me to be one of her teachers. And I mean, I, you know, Italy, France, Germany, Japan, Bali, you name it, I’ve taught there because she took me to teach there. And so I made a really good living. I’m one the few artists that I know that that made a really, really good living being an artist, but I also worked very, very hard there, you know, I don’t know any occupation you have that you don’t work hard. So you can’t just play. It might be, it may feel like play, but you’re also working. You’re also doing the business side of art. You’re also promoting yourself. You’re having a website, you’re you’re putting stuff on social media. I’m a photographer as well, and I post a flower every single day on Facebook and Instagram, just to keep my name out there. When I do some new collages, I put it on both Facebook and Instagram, and I get all kinds of comments, and I often get a quote, is that one for sale? And I send them to my web page because I’ve got a shop on my web page. I’m I was in several galleries. Unfortunately, I’ve had to pull out temporarily. I’m dealing with a cancer, and I’m cancer free right now, but I’ve had a rough couple of years, so I pulled out, and my goal is next January to be back in the open market. But right now, I’m still producing. I’ve got a new body of work to put out there when I get back out there. And then my collage work, I’ve started to do collage, and I’m absolutely loving it. And was fortunate enough to take first place on one of the BoldBrush’s competitions, which was $1,000 award, which was fabulous. And any artist who’s not doing that and entering that is foolish. That gets your work out there. It gets you known. Having a newsletter from FASO is a wonderful way to go. I guess I’m talking too much about business. Did you have questions you wanted to ask? I’m

Laura Arango Baier: 24:24

sorry, no, it’s great. Um, I mean, I wanted to touch a little bit further on actually your work, because I know that you’ve experimented with a lot of different materials and different things. So my question is, how, like, Where does an idea begin for you?

Linda Doll: 24:45

In my dreams? No, not really dreams, I go to bed early. My husband has passed away, so I live alone, and so I often get in bed a little early knowing I’m going to lay there. For about an hour before I fall asleep. But I call that my creative time, and I just lay there quietly, and I think about, okay, I have a painting that’s going or I have a new series I want to start, and I have a little pen and pencil next to my bed, and all I have to write is one word. But last night like I was laying in bed, and I thought, doors. I want to do doors and windows. And so I I know exactly. I almost painted, not painted. I almost collaged a collage in my sleep and in my in that state of half sleep and half wake. And I wrote on the on the piece of paper, doors, windows. And when I got up this morning, I could visualize all the ideas I had so quiet time, meditation time. And there’s different ways to meditate. You can do that wide awake and fully dressed, but for me, laying in bed quietly before I fall asleep, seems to be when I get the very best ideas and the most creative ideas and things I never would have thought of for me any other way. Yeah, so it’s quiet time, and it’s just getting into a thinking state, or I don’t even say thinking, creative state of what haven’t I done? What can I try next? I’ve never done anything with windows and doors and somehow, and somehow, it always, it always seems to replicate my life. So there must be a window or door that’s going to open for me, because usually when I get an idea like that, it’s almost a foretelling of something to accept when something com I mean, that’s weird, but yeah, a lot of times it’s things that are happening in my life anyway, that I maybe haven’t even recognized. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 27:05

no, and that really that’s so cool because it also reminds me of the way that Dali used to get his ideas for his pieces, which is that he would take a nap, or he would be in that semi asleep state where he would start to fall asleep, and he would hold some keys in his hand, and the moment he would fall asleep, he would drop the keys, and then whatever image he had at that moment, he would write it down, or whatever word or anything. So it’s very reminiscent of that. And I think it’s really cool, because I think we really, when you really tap into that, it is such a wealth of deep inspiration. And sometimes you get goofy ideas, and maybe it’s not really one to pursue, but oftentimes you’ll get something that’s just like, Oh my gosh. Like, how, where did that come from? That was so perfect. You know,

Linda Doll: 27:54

by the way, I didn’t really respect Dolly for a long time, and I was teaching in catechism Spain, and I got to go to the dolly house and studio. Oh, my God, that man was one of the most creative people ever. I have a total respect, and I’m embarrassed that I wasn’t at a level I could appreciate him before that. But he was a genius. He really was, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 28:23

I agree he’s one of my favorites. I think there are, you know, just like with any any musician, for example, not every song is going to be your favorite, so not every painting of his is going to be my favorite, either, but there’s, I can definitely appreciate his breaking away from the norm, really persuading

Linda Doll: 28:45

what he had in his studio were unbelievable. I mean, creativity beyond what I could ever think of. Yeah, yeah. It was just what he was doing with mirrors, what he was doing with I mean, everything, and then I got to go to the museum with his jewelry, a visionary. I mean, just unbelievable. So and what? What I usually say when I don’t like somebody, I never say I don’t like them. I say, You know what, I’m not at a level yet where I can appreciate them. I haven’t learned enough about them. And once I did, wow, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:21

if you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May, with our special guest, Deborah Keirce. You can find the sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush. We inspire. Artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today, right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com forward slash podcast, that’s FASO.com forward slash podcast,

Linda Doll: 31:39

yes, I totally agree. And actually, speaking of you know that having like different materials, right? Because Dali worked with different materials, but you’ve been working with different materials for a while. Do you mind telling us a little bit more about the current technique or material that you’ve really, really gotten into? So when I was in school, they used to tell you you had to stick with one thing you had to be known for one thing. And I looked at all, you know, Picasso, I looked at Dolly, I looked at all these people, and I thought, well, how come they didn’t have to do that? Why do I have to do it if they didn’t? So I gave that up a long time ago, and so I do. I’m actually a Zentangle certified instructor, and I do great, big, huge Zentangle drawings. I do photography, I do digital collage, I do regular collage, I do watercolors, I go urban sketching every single week. I but you know what? They always look like mine. I don’t care which media I do, somehow I come out through all of them, and everybody always knows it’s mine, because somehow I’ve managed to, in every single one of them, come up with a Well, like I said earlier, certain colors, certain compositional devices, certain you know, I like the grid. I like the cruciform. I like I like simple I like big, simple shapes. So whether I’m doing a collage or whether I’m doing a watercolor or whether I’m doing photography, those things come through if I let them. And so, yeah, I right now I’m really enjoying collage, and I’ll tell you why. Right now I can’t bend over a full sheet watercolor, and I wasn’t able to paint, and I wasn’t going to give up doing art, and I decided I had to find something I could do, small and sitting with a pillow behind my back, and I needed to work with what I had to work with. And so I rearranged my studio. I don’t know if you can see behind me. I have a huge room, and I’ve got a huge drafting table, and I’ve got three short tables, and so each one is a station. And so the one behind me, with a nice chair with a with a back cushion, is where I can sit and do collage and not hurt and be able to work and get something done. And I just have to be creating. It’s, it’s food for my It’s like eating. You know, our body needs to eat and our soul needs creativity. So I, and I’m actually right now coaching for a Kathleen of got my, my brain just flipped out. Okay, my I’m coaching for Catherine rains class and helping her and answering questions for artists. And I just love that I can I had so many good teachers who. Shared with me, and I love sharing. There’s too much knowledge in that head not to share it, and it’s not mine. I didn’t make it up. It’s all been given to me, and I feel like I need to pass it on to the next generation. So this is really been fun. So she has 2000 students that she has an online class, and every other day, I go on and answer questions from the students, any question they want to ask about art they can ask, and I answer right online. And I am loving that. It’s really gotten me motivated to even do more of my own work.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:37

Yeah, yeah. I love that. And I think you mentioned a couple things there that I’m like, oh yes, you know, even one is that constraints oftentimes breed the most incredible ideas, or the best renewals of ideas. So like the constraint of you, okay, well, I can’t, you know, bend over and paint, but I will do something else that works within this constraint, I think that is, you know, it just, it’s that perseverance of, I need to make something. I need to do something. I have the same itch in my hands. I call it like the creative itch, like I’m, like, I’m itching. I need to hold something and use it to make a thing, any craft.

Linda Doll: 36:18

While I was sick, I made every one of my great grandchildren an afghan. I crocheted an afghan. I’m now making them, knitting them hats. My hands have to be doing something all the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:31

Yes, I relate so deep to that. And then I also wanted to circle back to something else you mentioned earlier about your ideas as well, which is the importance of quiet time, because I think also, especially if you’re knitting, crocheting, doing anything, that kind of shuts off your brain in a funny way and just lets you be in the moment, I also find that that really helps your brain decompress, and it becomes more of like, it’s almost like tilling the soil to allow like, little seeds to start to emerge. Because if you, if you start, you know, I guess if you, if you put too much information in your brain, and you don’t allow yourself to sift through it and to settle it in your head, you just end up really tired and overworked and burnt out, and then suddenly you you end up not doing anything for like, weeks. I don’t know if you relate to that, because you’re just

Linda Doll: 37:31

so tired. Yes, yeah, yeah, no, it’s that one hour, like I said, it’s, it’s one hour every night that I just lay there, and it’s I’m just amazed at how many how I can get into a creative state. And when I’m in my studio, I’m more productive, but I’m not as I don’t come up with new ideas as much. I tend to do more of what I do all the time, where, when I’m in that state, I, like, I said, I came, I can’t wait today to get and figure out how to do some windows and doors, and how to sketch some windows and doors and then put them into the collage. I mean, I’m, I have this whole idea of this whole new series. I’m like, yes, okay, I got another series to do, and I usually work in series. I will work on four to six pieces at a time, and they’ll all have something in common, so they all kind of hang together as a series. And then I may never go back to that series again, because I always want to be and sometimes people say, Well, can you do that in blue? And I’m like, a no, that needed to be red,

Laura Arango Baier: 38:51

yeah, yeah. And that actually also reminds me, you know, that stubbornness of like, just following your vision, and this is this, is it? This is what I’m being called to do. I think earlier, you also mentioned how artists, we work really, really hard. And you know, when you’re trying to find your voice as an artist, I think one of the hardest things is also to set aside all of those expectations of, oh, I should be doing this. I should be doing that. That’s also the hard work is staying as true to yourself as possible without I mean, yeah, it’s good to reference other artists, especially, you know, old masters and people that you admire, because nothing exists in a vacuum. It’s inevitable, but at the same time, you know it’s hard work to really just focus on your own vision and to stick to it without, you know, getting distracted by, like, oh, but it would be so cool, like, that guy over there is doing that, or that person over there is doing that. And, you know, it’s good to, once again, quiet time and to just strictly, you know, focus on, on your vision. Yeah,

Linda Doll: 39:56

my my goal, and I’m pretty. Strict with it is to either do a drawing or wet the brush every day. I don’t have to produce something. I don’t have to finish something. It might just be a sketch in my sketchbook. As I say, I go out urban sketching a lot, and those sketches never come out of the sketchbook. But it’s me working. It’s thinking, it’s my hand eye coordination staying sharp. It’s so every day, I just set time aside. And it’s usually in the morning, I usually get a cup of coffee and go in the studio, and then after about an hour, if I have other things to do, then they get done. But I put art first,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:44

yeah, I mean,

Linda Doll: 40:46

and maybe only for a short time, but like today, I have some appointments and things I have to do. So well, this is art. I count this, but typically I would go in the studio with my cup of coffee for an hour and do something, and in collage, it might just be making more papers I’m going to collage with, or it may be actually doing a full collage. Or it might be when I was doing my watercolors, it might be just doing the drawing and coming back the next day and putting on some washes, and it might be another day before I put finish it. I don’t have to finish a project at one time, but I have to work every day. Yes, and it’s

Laura Arango Baier: 41:30

that consistency that really just beats out anything. I mean, every artist that I’ve interviewed and has been successful and has, you know, just really reaped the rewards of the career is there. They’ve all been so, so, so adamant about consistency. And it makes perfect sense, because it really does, like it, like, in your case, right? You have, like, I’m just gonna paint my loved ones on the beach and I’m gonna stay consistent with, you know, the theme and the way that they’re laid out, and how much you know the inspiration behind it. You’re you’re not just painting this. Oh, well, I guess I gotta paint another one. No, you’re definitely doing it from place of love.

Linda Doll: 42:11

So even that series had a series within a series. So when my father first died, I did a lot of paintings of fathers with children. And then when I got what I called finished with that, then I did mothers with children. Then when I got done with that, my mother started to date somebody. And I did a whole series of senior citizen romance and seniors holding hands and walking on the beach. And then when that got done, I did a whole series of shadows and reflections. Every painting had to have a shadow and a reflection. And then when I got done with that, I did a series of bocce ball players. And then I did a series of golfers. So even within the series. I didn’t allow myself to get bored or to get complacent. I continually kept asking myself, what else could you do that’s still in that series? And then in the meantime, I’d be doing the commissions of people as well, and I didn’t really enjoy the Commission’s as well as the ones that I really wanted to do. But one of the other things you touched on was financial and people needing to make money. I mean, we need to live, and the cost of living has just gotten huge. So the commission was, wasn’t my create. It was creative, but it wasn’t my real creative time. But I knew that I could make a lot of money. I could make enough that I could take several days and do my own paintings. And when it came to pricing, I actually priced it based on whether there was 1234, people in the painting, and whether there was a pet in the painting, and you know, a lot of times it was families of four and a pet, well, that takes a long time. And like I say, I was fortunate enough, my prices got up there really high. And that is a problem that I want to tell people about. When your prices get too high, you better have a good collector base, because it’s a lot easier to sell less expensive paintings. But once you go up, you can’t come down, so be careful. Excuse me, be careful. When you’re a new painter, don’t think you can get what the advanced painters, or the painters who have been painting and having a collector base for years get just because you think yours is as good as theirs, doesn’t mean everybody else thinks that. So my advice to new painters was always to start lower and have series, and when they sell out, raise the price on the next series and raise it a little bit every single time, until you have a nice collector base, absolutely. But I see way too many painters who say, Oh, but I don’t want to really sell it. I’m going to put a $5,000 price on it. Like, who’s going to buy it? Come on and it’s it. There’s something about selling a painting that motivates you to paint another painting or two more. It’s just a nice satisfaction when it’s not your family, when it’s a total stranger who comes to you and says, Oh, I love that. That reminds me of my son and his wife. I want to buy that. Man. Do you start you it’s, it’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s energy, food. So I know we have a wide range. We have very advanced painters on this call, but we also have some new ones. And I would say, go up slow with your pricing it. And I think Frank Webb used to always say that a 200 if you’ve done 200 paintings, you’re a beginner. If you’ve done 500 paintings, you’re an intermediate. And until you get to 1000 paintings, you’re not an advanced painter. So stop thinking, because you did five paintings, you’re an advanced painter.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:30

That is true. That is Yeah, true, yeah. And, but then how did, how did you figure out your pricing strategy? Besides, you know, just having, like, different, oh, that’s these different characters. Like, where was your starting point? Like, did you look at other people’s work and compare? Or, how did that go?

Linda Doll: 46:48

I started out in a co op gallery. And Co Op galleries, you work one day a week, and you’ll pay a much less commission. And I started, I started lower, and I had a price for every size. Excuse me, every size had a different price range. So with watercolor, it was quarter sheet, half sheet, three quarter sheet and full sheet was, you know, where the size is approximately. And I know a lot of people do it with measurements. They take the width and the height, and then they multiply it by an amount, and that’s a really good way to go. And so I started at what I thought was a very reasonable price. The San Diego watercolor society sells a lot of work. So I looked at what price they were selling at. And at that time I was president of the Society, so I had all the information that I needed. And so I went on the low side, and when I started to sell quite a few of them. Then every January 1, I would raise the price a little bit okay, and every single year I would raise the price just a little bit on January 1, and the old pieces would stay at the regular price, and the new pieces went up. And that worked for me. And I was fortunate, this Co Op gallery sold a lot, and a gallery in La Jolla ona happened to come in, loved my work and invited me to go to her gallery. Then it was 50% commission. But then I raised my prices considerably more because the co op gallery was 20% so I had to take a little higher jump. I also had to absorb a little bit. It kind of was a compromise of what I would raise the prices to, and then I kept raising them every January 1.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:50

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I’m guessing you didn’t raise it like, let’s say you may raise it like, about

Linda Doll: 48:55

10% Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:57

there you go. That makes perfect sense. Yeah? Also because, you know, inflation, change of concepts,

Linda Doll: 49:03

um, La Jolla has a lot of visitors. So even though it was a little annoying, not annoying, just a little extra work, um, I told the gallery that they could unframe My piece, I would put a com, what I called complimentary framing, which was a good archival mat, nice thick, you know, a ply mat, and a Nielsen metal frame, which was very easy to just undo two screws and take it out. And if anyone traveling, well, I didn’t care if they were traveling, but if anybody wanted the painting, then she would unframe it. And we had a deal that if they only, if they wanted the mat, if they didn’t want the frame, she could take off 10% if the they didn’t want the mat in the frame, she could take off 20% and roll it, put it in a tube, and she. Take 10% off for shipping it to them, where they were, you know, I mean, and we shared the, the the I didn’t take the full, you know, but she had so many people, and then I would go in and pick the frame up, bring it home and put another painting in it, bring it back and deliver it again. So it was a little extra work. But like I said, there’s, there’s some parts of the business that are just plain work,

Laura Arango Baier: 50:25

yeah, yeah. It’s a lot of taking care of all the little things like that, like the, oh, making sure that the piece is framed and that the frame is working and that it has, of course, your signature has the math, that everything is smooth, and then delivering the pieces. It’s the

Linda Doll: 50:44

other thing I just popped in my head. I always advise artists never to date their paintings on the front, because the minute they see a date on the front of last year or the year before, they always say, Do I get a discount? It’s an old painting, and it may be one of the best paintings I’ve ever done, and I kept it in the studio for a year because I wanted to grow into it. So I always tell people not to, to put that date on the front, that that can be a real deterrent to people buying it if they think it’s old and nobody else wanted it,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:19

yeah, oh, I’ve never heard that, but that’s, I mean, that’s kind of silly. Can I get a discount? As it were, machines,

Linda Doll: 51:26

the other thing I usually tell people, if they’re working on paper, is to sign their paintings with a graphite pencil and a good number two, I mean, to be because if they, if they take your painting and they try to reproduce it, the the reproduction will flatten the signature. And if you use a to be pencil, and you look on the side, you can actually see the graphite, and even framed, you can tell if it’s an original or a print.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:59

Interesting, that’s

Linda Doll: 52:01

a Yeah, yeah. Now not all media you can sign with pencil, but if it’s possible, I do prefer to sign with something that won’t reproduce, that will reproduce flat, and then when people can’t just make prints of your work,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:16

yeah, yeah. That’s a really good tip. Um,

Linda Doll: 52:20

yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:21

And then I also want to, I want to go back a little bit, because I want to ask you about what your transition to becoming a full time artist was like, like, what was the moment where you were like, Oh my gosh, I’m making a living from this. What was that like for you?

Linda Doll: 52:38

Um, so I was pretty much a hobbyist in teaching at the the junior college. You know, I mean, I was half serious, half professional and half not. And when I started to work for a flying colors art workshops, and I started teaching workshops, and my income went up severely. And at that time, my husband was starting his own company, a computer company, and financially, we really needed me to have an income. And I realized that I was making really good money and I could become and that a lot of my students would buy my pieces. So not only and that at that time, a lot of the watercolor societies all over the USA knew me and started asking me so every single month, all year, I traveled one week a month or two, and taught all over the US and all over the world. And my husband had to take care of the kids, but he knew that that’s what we needed to do to get his business up and going, and it kind of forced me to become professional, and to to to to accept that I was a professional. Um, sometimes it’s hard everyone else accepts us, except ourselves, and we need to be put in a situation where we say, Yes, this is how much I charge. This is I am a professional. I would love to come and do your workshop, but this is my rate. This is what I do, and this is what I give. And I actually made a course manual that I gave to all my students, that was never available for sale. And so when somebody came to my class and say, Illinois or Chicago or somewhere, they’d go home and they’d show their their their course manual to their sister or their brother or somebody, and then another organization would say, my sister was in your class. I want you to come to Florida. I want you to come to Alabama. And so word of mouth was really you could take ads in magazines, and unless people knew you, and unless someone else had taken your class. So once it got the ball, got. Rolling. Wow, it just, it just really got rolling. And so every single month I had a very good income. And so I was making $700 a day, plus all expenses. And if you do that for a week or two, and then you have two weeks to go home and paint in your studio anything you want. So that was for me really, um, I just got thrust into it,

Laura Arango Baier: 55:31

yeah, yeah. But I think the gosh, I Oh, that is so it’s so interesting, because I think a lot of artists relate. There’s like that feeling of like, you said, like, imposter syndrome, of like, Oh, but I mean, I’m just, I’m just doing this. Who, what? Who would even do? I deserve this, and I think y’all

Linda Doll: 55:51

deserve it, yes, and artists deserve to be considered as a professional, and they deserve to make good money. Sorry, but you need to accept that and tell yourself, yeah. And so that’s where the pricing comes in. And you need to price it. You need to make at least your framing, plus maybe double it, you know. Or, you know, you need to make as much as, as as your gallery’s making, you know, or, or, yeah, so you need to take yourself serious. It got to a point where this is another thing I like to advise artists with. And I know that organizations don’t like me to do this, but organizations will call you all the time and ask you to donate a painting for an auction, and they have no idea, really what they’re asking for. And so it might be a $1,200 payment, and they want it framed, you know, so you you’re talking $2,000 is what they’re really asking for, and they have no idea, and they’re going to auction it off for $200 and think they’re doing good. I’m serious. And so I used to say them, you know what, my inventory is low. How about I donate $100 to your organization instead? And they’re like, Oh, thank you. That’s wonderful. And if they said, Oh, but we really wanted to feature your painting, and we really wanted it as a draw, I’d say, Okay, I’ll give you a painting, because they were, they were going to be advertising me as well, not just sticking me in a back room and selling it for 200 so I wanted to know, and it’s only fair that if I give something, I get something in return, and advertising for an artist is good return, but not if it’s you’re not going to get it. So I would test them and say, What if I, what if I donate $100 I mean, the frame was more than $100 yeah, and I do. These were, these were very good organizations. They were organizations I believed in. I just they had no idea what they were asking for.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:08

Yeah, I have also run into people who work in whether they’re like, hosting workshops or artist residencies, and they make demands that, like, make absolutely no sense for an artist, and you can tell that they themselves are not an art themselves are not an artist, because usually the timeline is totally wrong. They’re like, Oh, we’re expecting this number of paintings in this time period. It’s like, that’s not going to happen. What size are we talking Do you want? Big Do you want? Because the only way I’m going to get that number done is if they’re all very small paintings, because that is just not feasible. So

Linda Doll: 58:43

when I went to Bulgaria no Albania, Dan No, I’m sorry, Pakistan, I was invited to the university in Pakistan to stay in the university and teach the female the female students at the university, but they wanted a painting in return, and then they would pick up all expenses. And I said, Fine, but I’m not going to do it while I’m there. There’s no way I can teach the class and do a painting that I want hanging in your university that I can be proud of. So I I actually ended up giving them three paintings because they really were fabulous, and they really took care of me. And so what I did was I took a lot of photography. I took a lot of pictures. A lot of people there, the president of the university, the teachers who were really good to me, and I did three paintings that included them, and sent it back six months after, and they knew they were coming, but I needed time, I, you know, I wanted it to be appropriate and hang in their university, and to have people look at it and go, Oh, that’s Dean so and so, that’s, you know, and so. Well, they were more than willing to wait. You know, I told them I was good for it, but that I was it wasn’t going to be something I painted there, and it wasn’t going to be something from California that was inappropriate in their the way they dress, the way they you know, a lot of my you know, we dress in short. So we dress inappropriate for Pakistan, so I wanted to do something that was very appropriate for them.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:29

Yeah, yeah. And that goes to show to the importance of communication as well with, like, any organization that an artist works with, you know, what are the expectations? What? And, you know, how can you compromise? And I think that was an excellent compromise, especially considering they patiently waited as well, and they were happy with the results. And that’s what matters. They

Linda Doll: 1:00:50

were thrilled. Yeah, they really were.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:52

I mean, they wanted, when they got three, that’s really great. But yeah, and then, besides all of these incredibly awesome pieces of advice. Is there one final piece of advice that you would like to give any listener who really wants to become a full time artist?

Linda Doll: 1:01:09

Be yourself. Be yourself. Figure out who you are. Figure out what’s important to you. Figure out what you love to do more important than what other people want from you. What do you enjoy? What is your strength? How can you always be ahead of everyone, instead of running to catch up? What can you do? What do you do that’s unique? Find a find a niche. Might be a small niche, but any niche is better than none. Find something that that you love and others love that you

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:47

do beautiful. Yes, I think that’s those are all excellent pieces of advice, but yeah, I

Linda Doll: 1:01:55

know we all have a strength. Every one of us have strengths and every one of us have strong personalities. There’s not an artist on this call who doesn’t have a strong voice when it’s something they care about. Use that voice in your painting or in your collage or in your photography or whatever it is.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:14

Yeah, yeah. It’s very true, and again, that I think it’s really hard work to allow yourself to do that right, to give yourself the permission and the validation, to say, Yeah, my voice does matter. My voice.

Linda Doll: 1:02:27

Trust your inner voice.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:29

Yes, yeah, perfect. Yes. And then if anyone wants to learn from you, or wants to see some of your work, do you have any upcoming shows or any upcoming events that you’d like to promote.

Linda Doll: 1:02:42

I usually put my work on my web page, which I said earlier, www dot Linda doll com. I will be doing a demonstration in Denver in July. I’ve kind of limited this year. I’m just starting to open my calendar up again, but I have a couple of demos. I also have some videos on procreate for the beginner artist, so that they can start to use procreate if they want. That’s all free on YouTube, and the link is in my web page, all the supplies I use. I have a supply list on my web page that lists all the products I use and and I do do a lot on Amazon, but it’s the link to Amazon to a lot of the products I use. I do post a lot on Facebook. Linda doll com and Instagram. Linda doll five, I think, no, I’m sorry, Facebook is Linda doll and Instagram is Linda doll five, and I’d love you to follow me. And I do post all different things. I try to keep it pretty art. Occasionally I put family, but mostly it stays art. And whether it’s a photograph I’m posting or the group out urban sketching, it’s it’s just me loving life, enjoying myself and sharing it on social media, and then I do post on my on my Facebook. I’ve been really bad this year about my newsletter, just because of issues, but my goal is to get back to start doing my newsletter again, so you can sign up for my newsletter. If you’re interested, email me. Linda doll@me.com if you have questions. I love to hear from artists. I love to mentor artists. I also have a mentoring program where you you don’t sign up for any specific time, you just sign up for one at a time. It’s about 45 minutes. You send me six to eight paintings, and we on Zoom, we go over them, and I don’t critique them as much as analyze them. I like to ask you questions about what was your intention? Where does your eye go first? So. It’s not me telling you how to change your painting, because I want the paintings to stay yours, and I want you to still be able to enter shows with them. I want you to feel like you made every decision in in the piece. So I’ll usually say, you know, either you need a dark in the top left, or you need a light in the bottom right, you know, squint down. Which one feels better to you? So I do have that program, and it’s pretty inexpensive. I think it’s $50 for a critique session with me. And I just love I have quite a few people all over the country who just, you know, every two or three months, sometimes it’s six months, email me and say, Okay, I need another critique or analyzing session and and I love I love mentoring artists. I just don’t want to do full teaching anymore. But at 84 I think I’m entitled to it.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:02

Yes, sure, you’re definitely entitled to a well deserved

Linda Doll: 1:06:06

but I’m Greek, totally computer literate. I think I do really well for my age. So

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:11

yeah, I mean, you even have Amazon links. That’s crazy. I don’t have Amazon links.

Linda Doll: 1:06:16

Yeah,

Unknown: 1:06:16

yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:17

Oh man, but it was such a wonderful treat to have you? Oh,

Linda Doll: 1:06:20

I love talking with you. Thank you, yeah, thank you for inviting me,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:25

of course, and thank you for being here. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple, podcast Spotify or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you. Bye.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Tanner Steed, a Denver-based oil painter and instructor who built a full-time career through self-directed classical training, mentorships with leading figurative artists, and a practice rooted in painting his lived experiences with a focus on strong composition and poetic mystery. Tanner shares how he built his career by treating art like any other skill in the brain—showing up daily, doing master copies, and effectively creating his own “atelier” when formal schools weren’t an option. He urges artists to paint what they genuinely love instead of chasing trends or specific collectors, trusting that sincere, well-crafted work will find its audience. A big part of his advice is to start paintings over and over to strengthen composition and value design, build or initiate community (from family collectors to plein air groups), and maintain multiple income streams through galleries, direct sales, teaching, and educational content. He also emphasizes persistence—reaching out repeatedly to mentors, reinventing yourself socially when needed, and committing to be “the last one standing” in the long game of artistic mastery. Finally, Tanner closes by mentioning current and upcoming projects, including his 100 Flowers Sale, a group show at Saks Galleries, an Art Renewal Center piece showing at Sotheby’s, workshops in Rome through Rome Art Residencies, and a future painting workshop along the Danube River cruise.

Tanner’s Sale!:
tannersteedart.com/collections/228563

Tanner’s FASO site:
tannersteedart.com/

Tanner’s Social Media:
instagram.com/tannersteedart/

Tanner’s YouTube:
youtube.com/@tannersteedart

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Transcript:

Tanner Steed: 0:00

You just have to put in the work. I think this may be controversial, but I think it’s actually easy to make it as an artist, I think if you’re willing to put in the work, and you believe that it’s possible like truly believe then it’s going to be easy, hard work shows, and if you’re persistent, it pays off.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Tanner steed, a Denver based oil painter and instructor who built a full time career through self directed classical training, mentorships with leading figurative artists and a practice rooted in painting his lived experiences with a focus on strong composition and poetic mystery, Tanner shares how he built his career by treating art like any other skill in the brain, showing up daily, doing master copies and effectively creating his own Atelier when formal schools weren’t an option. He urges artists to paint what they genuinely love, instead of chasing trends or specific collectors, trusting that sincere, well crafted work will find its audience. A big part of his advice is to start paintings over and over, to strengthen composition and value design, build or initiate community from family collectors to planner groups and maintain multiple income streams through galleries, direct sales, teaching and educational content. He also emphasizes persistence, reaching out repeatedly to mentors, reinventing yourself socially when needed, and committing to be the last one standing in the long game of artistic mastery. Finally, Tanner closes by mentioning current and upcoming projects, including his 100 Flowers sale, a group show at Saks galleries, an art renewal centerpiece showing at Sotheby’s workshops in Rome, through Rome art residencies, and a future painting workshop along the Danube river cruise. Welcome Tanner to the FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Tanner Steed: 2:16

I’m fantastic. How are you

Laura Arango Baier: 2:18

I’m doing great. I’m really happy to have you because your work is so beautiful. It has such a particular interesting voice, where you just have this way of playing with the chroma of your pieces and the way that you compose. It’s just it’s so beautiful to see. So I’m excited to pick your brain today about that.

Tanner Steed: 2:38

Well, thank you very much. That’s very kind of you to say,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:41

of course, yeah, but before we do dive in about your gorgeous work and your technique and process, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Tanner Steed: 2:50

Sure, so I’m an oil painter. I live here in Denver, Colorado. I’ve been drawing and drawing on my life, painting for only seven years now. And, yeah, would you like me to kind of go into my background, like how I got started?

Laura Arango Baier: 3:13

Sure, yeah,

Tanner Steed: 3:14

cool. So, yeah, in hindsight, being an artist was absolutely my life path. I had grandparents and uncles who were in in the art world. My mom was an interior designer, and like esthetics were just I was surrounded by an appreciation for the esthetics. And I think having a mother as an interior designer, she was like, you know, constantly setting up the entire house, setting up like little still lives everywhere, and combining different colors. And, you know, it was like a daily thing. She’s still does it to this day. And I think that really shaped my esthetic preferences at a young age. And, yeah, some of my earliest memories when it comes to drawing and art, my grandparents would take me to, you know, Denver Art Museum or the Nature and Science Museum, and I’d always have like, a little clipboard and, you know, piece of paper, and I’d draw the animals or copy the paintings, and it was just, you know, a fascination of mine. And I, I was a pretty shy kid in like, elementary school, very, very quiet to myself, and I always found like a calming, just a peaceful state of mind when I was drawing, you know, I could be in my own head, and it was, it was a very, it’s still to this day, is like the best. Place to be. You know, I get kind of like the equivalent of a runner’s high after I’ve been drawing, you know, for quite some time. I’m sure you you know, that feeling, it’s wild. But yeah, I Yeah, drawing and painting has been in my life, my whole life. But it wasn’t until, actually, after college, that I decided to go into fine art as a profession. I went to school here in Denver at MSU Metropolitan State University, and I studied human development with an applied concentration in education. So my intention actually was going to be to work at an elementary school, probably like, teach fifth or sixth grade. I knew I wanted to work in, you know, maybe education, and I loved working with kids. I’ve been working with kids since high school, and while I was at school, I learned, you know, how to build a curriculum and then how the brain learns. I studied like the both the physiological and psychological development of humans over the course of a lifetime, and in that, I came to the realization that any skill, art, sports, anything is basically the same structure and same process in the brain. And at that point, I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I could apply what I did when I was skateboarding or teaching myself about mycology and apply that to something like art. And so I looked at, you know, the Florence Academy and the angel Academy, and I was like, wow, it would be spectacular to go there, but life circumstances were kind of restricting me to to go. And so I looked at their curriculums, and I’m like, wait a minute. I can buy plaster casts, I can buy the barg book, and I can do all of this work on my own. And there’s so much you know on the internet, youtube and different art websites, and I accumulated all of that information and just put in work every single day while I was teaching. And eventually I wanted to bring that work to a master artist. And at the time, I was obsessed with Richard Schmid and Daniel sprick. They were like my two, you know, masters that I really, really looked up to, and very, very different. You know, Richard Schmid, very loose painter, Dan sprick, very surreal, more on the tighter side, but still loose in his own way. And you know, Richard was still alive at the time he he moved to, I think he was on the east coast at this time. And I was like, oh, where’s, where does Daniel sprick live? I had the Juliet Aristides classical painting book, and I, I was just fascinated by his work. His work kind of terrified me, actually. I was like, you know, blown away with what was possible. But anyways, I found out he was in Denver, and I emailed him. I was like, hey, I really look up to you. I’d love to take you out for a cup of coffee and just get to know you. Maybe show you my sketchbook. And he didn’t respond. So I was like, okay, whatever. I’ll I’ll keep working in my sketchbook, keep painting, keep doing the work. I remember there was an opportunity to send questions through a podcast that he was doing. He was on the John Dalton podcast, and I sent him a question, he answered it, and he gave me suggestions for you know what to do next. So I did that work, and I emailed him again. He didn’t answer and so I I found out he was going to be at the plein air convention in Denver. And so it was like, Okay, I didn’t have a lot of money at that time, but I was like, I got to meet this guy. So this is, like, all borderline stalker. It’s hilarious. So I I bought tickets for the convention with the intention of meeting him, and then covid hit and canceled the convention. And I was like, Oh my gosh. I like, how is this gonna work? A few more months went by, I emailed him one last time, and to my surprise, he finally answered, and he said, All right, come to my studio. And you know, I. I was freaking out. I was so, so excited, so nervous. I had watched his documentary on YouTube. There’s like, a PBS documentary on on repeat. I, you know, was just obsessed with Him and in His work. So when I walked into his studio for the first time, I already knew the whole studio, and it was so surreal. I watched him paint for a bit. I showed him my sketchbooks, and maybe spent maybe an hour or two there, and he ate lunch, and I asked him questions, and then he said, as I was leaving, he’s like, we’ll be in touch. I was like, what I thought this was going to be just a single interaction, meeting your hero. And within a week, he said, Hey, why don’t you come to my figure sketching group? And I’m like, Oh, cool. So I showed up to that group with, you know, paper charcoal. And I was anticipating it being just Dan the model, and maybe, you know, one or two other people. But no, it was all of the Denver legendary artists. And you know, Kwong HO and Adrian Stein and Anna rose Bain and like all of these people, and I was so nervous, and I did the most terrible portrait of my life, but from that moment on, I had been returning to The Wednesday group. They’ve all become peers and friends, and now Dan is not only a mentor, but like a best friend now, and I, I am now working out of Kwang ho studio, which is the wall divides Dan’s studio from kwangs. So that’s where I am now. And yeah, the rest is history. Now we’re teaching workshops together, and, yeah, we went to Egypt. Fabulous. So that’s a brief history.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:10

Oh, but that’s awesome. It’s really great when it’s like, you know, you see someone like you who just refuses to give up, you know, just, I’m gonna do this, I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this. Stays consistent, and there’s a breakthrough. I mean, it’s like, of course, there’s a breakthrough, because you kept going, right? And I think that that’s a really big testament to that perseverance, you know, like through learning the craft and then meeting your hero and waiting so long to meet him, and then, you know, being dashed left and right, like, geez, the pandemic. Oh,

Tanner Steed: 12:47

yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:48

But it’s great that it worked out, and there you are still working alongside him, which is really cool. And I want to circle back to something you did say, because you mentioned that when you saw his work in Juliet Aristide’s book, you were terrified. I want you to expand on that a little bit.

Tanner Steed: 13:06

Yeah, so that’s been kind of a common theme in my life, where if I find something terrifying, or if I’m afraid of something, it’s a sign that I probably need to push myself in that direction. So when I saw Dan’s work, it was the most mysterious artwork that I had ever seen. I could not believe that someone was capable of turning paint into what he creates. Now, you know, I’ve seen him paint hundreds of pieces, and it it all makes sense, you know, you know, I don’t paint like Dan, you know, or like on his level, absolutely not. But, um, I at least now understand the mystery. But when I first saw it in the Juliet Aristides book, it was just, yeah, it was mind blowing. I could not back engineer what he was doing. It was just so, so mysterious. Whereas, you know Richard Schmid was, you could see the brushstrokes. I understood how brush strokes could turn into brushstrokes, but the illusion of Dan’s work just was on another level to me. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:39

wow, yeah, no, that’s, I really love that, you know, the when you’re faced with something that you fear, right, most people would be like, running the other direction, right? Instead of, you know, you reacted with curiosity, like, how the heck like, I want to do that right? And I think again, that really goes hand in hand with that perseverance. Where, you know, it’s very often that we’re faced with so many challenges, especially on the easel, and I think it is natural to just want to give up because it’s so hard. Painting is so so so difficult. But I think, of course, it always feels incredible when you’re able to push past that fear and go for it again and again, like a crazy, mad scientist who just can’t put the dog bone down and just keep going. Like, the only thing that might stop you is, Oh no, it’s three in the morning and I haven’t eaten all day, you know, yes,

Tanner Steed: 15:36

oh, tell me about it. My gosh, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:39

Like you’re 10 coffees in, and you’re like, why am I

Tanner Steed: 15:41

anxious? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:44

exactly. It’s like, I like, brush isn’t straight now, yeah, and that’s, that’s one of those things that, of course, over time it should be tempered, because, if not, you just end up burning yourself out, right? So it’s good to take it easy, but it is nice to have that impetus to just like, go, go, go, go, and not give up. Yeah, and speaking of, you know, having stuff on the easel, what would you say is a theme or question that keeps popping up in your work for you, like, what’s what’s on there?

Tanner Steed: 16:19

Well, you know, something that’s really important to me is painting my own life experience. You know, maybe when you start painting, you are more focused on how to reproduce what’s happening in front of you, until you understand the technique, and you know that that eventually will become very simple, very easy to just reproduce what’s happening in front of you. So I will paint from my own life experience, whether it be painting outdoors, I do a lot of traveling and paint on location as much as I possibly can. And now I don’t really try to reproduce what is happening in front of me. Rather, I will paint the thing, but then try to cast it into this other realm and make it just, you know, a little bit more interesting than it actually is. And it is already, you know, interesting. If I chose to paint something, it’s already got a fundamental quality of beauty, or whatever it is, psychological interest. And then I just, you know, kind of crank it up a notch, you know. So I guess I’m not sure what I would call that theme, but maybe just increasing the level of mystery in whatever the subject is that I’m painting, whether it be a single flower or like I’m looking behind the camera, I’m working on a painting of a caravan of camels walking in the desert, and there’s the cityscape of Cairo behind it. I can send you a picture of this later, but yeah, yeah, it’s really important to me to paint the things that I’ve that I’ve experienced, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:28

yeah, yeah. And that’s a great point, because oftentimes we especially in the beginning, when you’re like, especially starting out as an artist, and it is important too, is to you start by learning how to draw or paint the thing as it is, right? Because that’s the starting point. If you’re not accurate, it doesn’t matter how nice you render your drawings. Wrong, it’s gonna look bad no matter what, unless that’s the intention. But oftentimes it isn’t, you know. So having that base to work from, of course, is really important. But then now, like you, you reach that point of, okay, what is the essence of this object? What is this object trying to how does this object differentiate itself from others? Right? It’s kind of like how, when you learn to draw portraits, everyone at some point just looks exactly the same.

Tanner Steed: 19:20

Yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:21

everyone’s the same. But then when you’re trying to get that likeness, you realize, like, oh, you know, if I really push this feature a little bit, it makes them look more like them than they look, you know, kind of like, it’s really funny to see those competitions like Elvis impersonators, your Dolly Parton,

Tanner Steed: 19:38

and

Laura Arango Baier: 19:39

oftentimes the actual person wouldn’t even win because the impersonator has exaggerated their essence to such a perfect level that it’s like, yeah, that that’s totally them. It’s like, no, that’s horrible. There’s like, no, no, no, no. It’s this,

Tanner Steed: 19:54

right, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:55

right, exactly. So, yeah, um, I forgot what that’s called, um. But I, if I remember, I got to tell you, because it has an actual name to it that effect. But yeah, and having that life experience, I think, is also very important, like you said, like it’s, it’s good to imitate and learn, because that’s how we start. That’s how we learn language, that’s how we learn how to write and to walk, even. But yeah, just what something is telling you, right? What their story is through your eyes, through a unique lens that is entirely colored by your own life experiences and all of these incredible things. That’s why, you know, you can get two artists paint the same exact flower to look different, you know,

Tanner Steed: 20:37

right?

Laura Arango Baier: 20:38

Especially they allow themselves to explore more, more of that narrative or poetic side of the flower, instead of just the this is what it is. I’m in the Audubon Society, and I will paint this bird biologically, or, like how you mentioned with mycology. It’s like, Oh, I’m just going to sketch this little mushroom exactly as it is. Because we need to have a we need to be able to identify it.

Tanner Steed: 21:01

Yeah, exactly

Laura Arango Baier: 21:02

yes. But yeah, I think that’s, it’s, it’s important. And actually, speaking of, you know, skill and leveling up like that, starting from that baseline, what is something that you focused on that really helped your artistic

Tanner Steed: 21:19

skill? Let’s see. I mean, there’s a million ways I can answer this, but 111, thing that comes to mind is starting over and over and over and over again, because the start of a painting is the most important thing. What I mean more specifically, is composing, trying different compositions, different patterns of light and dark shapes. That is what is going to make or break a painting. It has to be interesting from the start. And you know, you it’s very important to be able to spend, you know, as much time as a painting needs, you know, hundreds of hours could go into something to make it look pristine. But if that composition isn’t interesting in the first unless you’re planning on doing some major compositional changes later. You know, it’s really gonna, it doesn’t matter how much you render it and make it look, you know, realistic. It’s just, yeah, it’s gotta, gotta be interesting from the start. So something that I’m doing right now that’s so so fun, and is kind of a win win with my collectors and people who subscribe to my newsletter. I’m so I just got married this past weekend to Olivia, and we’re going on honeymoon to Florence, actually, tomorrow. And to help fund that honeymoon, I’m doing kind of a crazy, crazy sale. I wouldn’t normally do this, but I’m painting 100 flowers, and the first one is $1 and the last one is $100 and, you know, one plus two plus three, it adds up, and it’s going to help pay for the honeymoon. But anyways, this is doing exactly what I’m recommending, where I’m starting a new painting every couple of hours, they’re all the same flower or the same vase. And I am just trying all of these wild, different compositional approaches, different color harmonies, different sizes of the flower, different just, different feelings. I’m trying to cast them each into their own fiction. So although it’s the same subject, they’re all, yeah, interesting, different starts. So that would be a good way to practice this. This concept is just doing 100 of the same subject and just watching your creativity flow, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:19

yeah. That’s a great tip. And I think that, like, even beyond being a beginner artist, I think, yeah, it I had it when I was at Angel Academy. Michael, John Angel used to say that all the time. I was like, you’re painting, if it doesn’t have that feeling at the beginning,

Tanner Steed: 24:38

yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:38

it’s probably not going to have it later. And it’s so true, like, that feeling is really the composition, right, the value scheme, the location of the objects. And it’s always like, that’s and that’s even before color, because color, I like to say, is a cherry on top. It’s like, okay, this is like the disaster we had at the end. And, oh. We’re emphasizing it too much without having the baseline working is it’s not gonna really work unless that’s what someone’s going for. Then, yeah, but yeah, I totally agree, yeah. Just I think that also really helps those instincts, the natural instincts of like, composition, to really help it like, to help your brain figure it out too. Because I think, you know, we all really aspire to paint like the old masters, or paint like really, really well, and have these incredible paintings like, I think of like, you know, Solomon, J Solomon. And when you really look at the composition like, it makes perfect sense, and it is built upon years and years of experience. So, yeah, I think that’s a really great exercise. I want to do that. I’m just gonna start doing that too. Why not

Tanner Steed: 25:50

attached to each individual one? You know? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:54

yeah, that’s great. It’s totally great. And then you became a full time artist recently, right in like, last three years? Right?

Tanner Steed: 26:07

Yeah, yeah, three, four years. I don’t know. I lose track. People ask, and I just say a random number. And I usually say like five or six, but I honestly don’t know.

Laura Arango Baier: 26:22

Well,

Tanner Steed: 26:22

yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe three, I don’t know, maybe, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 26:26

but you became full time. What was that transition like for you? Like, when was the moment where you thought, Oh my gosh? Like, first off, I can make a living from this, and, second of all, now I am making a living from this. What was that like for you?

Tanner Steed: 26:39

So it was, it was fantastic. I so I went to school for human development education. During that time, I this school I was working at actually asked me, like, hey, the the art teaching position opened up, if you want, you could apply. You probably have a good chance. So I was like, what? Okay, I’ll apply. And I got that job, and I taught there for three years, and that was amazing for my artistic development and and I loved doing it, love working with the kids, but what I got to do for three years is practice and teach the fundamentals over and over and over and over again. And the school I worked at was very flexible in the curriculum. So I I looked at Angel Academy and Florence Academy, and I was like, All right, guys, we are drawing and painting from life. We’re going to do bark plates in sixth grade, and I got to practice all of that with the kids, and it was amazing. So and during that time, covid hit, and it was not great for the kids, but it was fantastic for me, sorry to say so when we had to teach online, I was teaching out of my studio, just, you know, over zoom, and I had, you know, my demo going, and then as soon as class would end, I would work on my own work. And even while I was at the school, I would always have my easel right next to me, and every single break I had, I’d be working on it, and every day after school, I’d be working on my own work. And during that time, I accumulated a lot of many pieces, and I would put on my own mini solo show. I I had a couple collectors who were open to having the show at their their houses, and I would remove all of the other artwork on their walls and hang up all of my own stuff. And I collected an email list, and I would do this annual solo show at different collectors houses. And I gave them, I said, Okay, you have an option. Either you can pick one of the paintings and that’s your piece, or you can get 10% of the proceeds, so they were getting something out of it. And they almost always just picked a painting, and I would sell quite a few. And I did that year after year while I was teaching. And, you know, I had to choose, am I going to be, you know, an educator for the rest of my life, or do I take this seriously? And I knew from a very young age that I was not going to have a very normal, you know, nine to five job career path, so I made the. Jump, and I had already met Dan and Quang at that time, and I had a, you know, like a career jump off party, where everyone met up at my parents house, and we, yeah, I just fully committed. And because I didn’t really have many other income sources, it kind of forced me to say, Okay, well, now I have to sell paintings. I have to, you know, teach a little bit. And it’s just, it’s worked out, it’s fantastic, and it’s only grown from there, and now I feel very, very successful and happy. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:50

oh, that’s awesome. And you sound very fulfilled, of course, yes, yeah, that’s really cool. At that annual sale, that’s genius,

Tanner Steed: 31:01

yeah?

Laura Arango Baier: 31:02

Because, I mean, I don’t think a single collector would ever be like, No, I don’t like when one of your paintings, yeah,

Tanner Steed: 31:08

they’d

Laura Arango Baier: 31:08

be like, hell yeah, come over here, yeah. And that’s really great, yeah. And then that actually brings me to the next question, which is a perfect segue, which is now that you’ve, you know, you’ve had your career for a while, if you were, like, say, with your current knowledge, if you had to start from zero all over again,

Tanner Steed: 31:30

yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 31:30

what would you do

Tanner Steed: 31:33

in terms of, like,

Laura Arango Baier: 31:35

to get from to Become a

Tanner Steed: 31:36

Professional?

Laura Arango Baier: 31:37

Yeah?

Tanner Steed: 31:39

Okay, so I would say that you have to put in the hours you got it. You got to do good work before you can start, before you can start selling your work. So just work your butt off, practicing doing as many master copies as possible. I think that really accelerated my growth is trying to go to the art museums and do copies in the museums, or take photos, go back home, copy the painting, bring the my little panel to the painting in person, if they don’t allow you to paint in the museum and just say, Okay, that is the standard. Pick your favorite artist, make that your standard. And say, I need to be at least as competent as this. But you know, inevitably you’re going to realize that, holy crap, that that’s a pretty high level, and I have very high expectations for myself, and there is a balance of pushing yourself to that level to compare yourself with master artists, and then also being realizing that it’s going to Take some time right to get there. So, yeah, just you have to be, I think in order to succeed, you need to be committed to drawing and painting every single day or as much as you possibly can, because there’s no shortcuts. Absolutely not. And something that Dan has always told me is it’s not about the like short term gains, it’s the people who succeed are the last men standing. So just keep going and keep improving your craft. Okay. Now, as for like, first collectors, first people who are going to buy your work, there is nothing wrong with the first people being you know, family members, your brothers, your sister, your parents. That’s okay, your parents, friends, your parents, friends, friends. You know, when I was first doing these solo shows and quotations, they were at my first one was at my parents house, and then the next one was at a someone who came to the event, and it was they were a serious became a serious collector from that point on, and they’ve been buying work all along the way. So anyone and everyone you know wants to support you, just start there. There’s nothing wrong with that. And then eventually you will get gallery representation, if you choose to. Now with social media, you don’t have to. You can do it all on your own. I have chosen to do a little bit of both. I still will sell privately, but often I will also. So I’ll have shows at a couple of different galleries here in Colorado. And yeah, it’s just one one step at a time.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:11

If you’ve been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 23rd of April with our special guest, Shana Levinson, you can find the sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSHshow.com. The FASO Show is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com, forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year. Then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, I’m writing notes, because truly, like, you know, it’s one of those things where it’s like, Duh, of course. But at the same time, it’s so easy to just glean over that part, just because it’s so obvious. But yeah, starting with like that core support group, right? I think many artists oftentimes feel like outsiders, or they feel like, oh, who? Like my my family. Just, you know, they think I’m an artist, but they don’t get it. You know, they just don’t get it. Because, like, no, they do. They they try to get it, hopefully, maybe not everyone, but if they do, then that’s, that’s awesome, because that’s your it’s so important to have that support system with family, a spouse, like just anyone that’s really close, and then expanding from there, yeah. And then I think what’s really interesting too, is the collector aspect of it, when how, how it develops. So like, for example, there must be, now that you’ve sold quite a few of your pieces, you must have somewhat of an idea of, like, who your ideal collector is. Do you have like, Do you have any tips about how someone could kind of get an idea of what their idea of ideal collector is?

Tanner Steed: 38:51

Well, let’s see. I would say, don’t worry about that. I would say, paint what you love, and if you truly put in all of your effort and your passion into that project, the collectors will find you. I don’t think it is wise long term to try to paint for collectors or to find you know, yeah, just, just paint what you love. And the collectors will there’s, there is a collector for every single subject matter. So if you were like, I’m really into mycology, although I’ve never painted mushrooms, which is shocking, let’s say I loved painting mushrooms. Well, then I would go to the Colorado Mycological Society and show the people in that group. Look, I painted some mushrooms. You they’re going to be interested. You know, if it’s like landscapes. Or still lives flowers. There are so many people in this world, and there is room for every subject matter. There’s Yeah, I have no doubt,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:14

yeah. And now that you mentioned subject matter, would you say that you figured out what you really, really wanted to paint pretty quick, or was that also a bit of a process for you?

Tanner Steed: 40:26

Well, it’s funny, I am I love painting everything. So I paint figures, I do landscapes, I do still lives. And I really gained a lot of confidence with my ADHD when I met Kwong, because Kwong is the definition of ADHD. He He’s so chaotic. He paints every subject matter in all different styles, and he is extraordinarily successful. And if you paint it well, it’s, it’s going to sell. You know, it’s, if you paint it with your passion, it’s going to sell. So I, I A typical day in the studio is I am literally surrounded by like five different pieces, and I’m simultaneously working on all of them, and for some that may drive them mad. For me, it is amazing, because while I’m working on one, I’ll sit down and take a break and look at another and say, oh my gosh, I know how to solve that now and then I’ll go over and and work it out, and one will influence the next. And even though they’re all possibly different subject matters, they will influence each other. And the consistency is the way that I’m painting all of them, so they will all look like my work, but they’ll be totally different things.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s really funny, because you’re the second artist I’ve heard who says they have like, five paintings going at the same time.

Tanner Steed: 42:08

Really, yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:10

yeah. And that because they’re working on one, it solves another one,

Tanner Steed: 42:15

amazing,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:15

yeah. And I’m like, Huh? Because I’m also at a stage for like, I feel like one painting isn’t enough, like, because it’s, I love oil paint, but it’s such a slow dryer, and I hate acrylics. I will never, I’ll probably never really be tempted to use acrylic unless you know, who knows the future is a strange thing. Who knows, but having, like, multiple pieces I use liquid, yeah. But even then, like, I feel like, No, I like, because there’s so like, to get certain effects, you need a lot of layering, and you need a lot

Tanner Steed: 42:47

of

Laura Arango Baier: 42:48

time in between those layers. Sometimes it’s like, oh, I need this to be dry, like, now, because I am so ready for the next part and to just keep going. But I feel like it always like, stops the process. So I think having, yeah, multiple pieces is probably the way to go. I also have ADHD, so that’s what I’m like, I relate, or more, yes,

Tanner Steed: 43:10

and paint it. Sometimes I’ll paint two of the exact same scene and compose it slightly differently. So you can, you know, paint a glaze on one, learn from that experience, and apply it to the next one. And then while this one’s drying, you can solve this one, and then while this one’s drying, you can move on to the next step. So I just did that with six of the same still lives. That’s the the last one up there. I’m not sure if you can see

Laura Arango Baier: 43:41

that,

Tanner Steed: 43:42

but, um, yeah, it’s, it’s so fun to painting is just so fun. I it

Laura Arango Baier: 43:49

is, it is, it’s, it’s a fun puzzle. It’s like,

Tanner Steed: 43:53

it

Laura Arango Baier: 43:53

is, you could just work on it forever. You really could. Which, actually, that’s such a great question Now that it’s come up. Which is, how do you know when a painting is finished,

Tanner Steed: 44:03

when it’s sold? None of, none of my paintings are varnished until they’re sold. I, I, I always believe that there could be a next step, but once it’s sold and and in someone’s home and they think it’s worthy of being purchased, then, then I’m done, and that’s good, but yeah, I also that this might be a good marketing tip is to varnish after it’s Sold if they’re local, because it allows you to contact them six months to a year after the painting has been finished, and that allows you to reconnect with the the client, check in with them, make that you know, human connection and. To share with them all of the new life experience that you’ve had, and then that often leads to the next sale.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:08

Yeah, that’s pretty genius. Um, yeah. I don’t know what else to say about that, because I’m like, taking notes, like, Haha. But yeah. And then I guess the other really interesting thing about being an artist is also like galleries, right? Not just like collectors. Do you, do you prefer to work with galleries? Or do you, like, prefer to work directly with collectors? Or do you do you do, like, a little bit of both? How does that work

Tanner Steed: 45:42

for you? I do both. So I am represented at the Broadmoor galleries in Colorado Springs, and they’ve been absolutely wonderful to me. And I go there a few times a year for, you know, different painting events where maybe I’ll I often. I love painting Olivia. Olivia is the definition of my muse. She’ll pose for me anywhere we go, whether we’re traveling or if we’re at an event, like at the Broadmoor. And I every time I go there, it’s funny, okay, I don’t know if you’ve found this, but it’s much easier to make a sale with someone if you are actually present, because that person is able to, you know, connect with you as the individual. They’re excited to hear your story one on one, and they feel that personal connection that is huge for developing a client base. And so, yeah, every time I go to the Broadmoor, I end up selling something. Every time I go to any, any painting event, I’ll sell something because of that, that connection. So I love working with galleries. And I also will work, I’ll have, like, many studio sales where, you know, people might come here and and buy pieces or just buy it off my website. Yeah, I think you need to have multiple legs on the table and multiple income streams. So we are a small business, right? And we have to do a lot of of work. So I will I sell in instructional videos. I’m about to come out with one on my website with these rug paintings. I’ve got a pretty a great system down, and that’ll be coming out soon on my website. But, um, yeah, I sell paintings off my website. I sell through galleries, instructional videos, and I teach a class out of my studio here on Sundays. And then I also do, like, international work workshops, and I love kind of being all over the place, and it’s been beneficial. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:14

yeah, no, that’s, that’s, that’s the other really interesting thing about, you know, being an artist is that there isn’t one single way to be an artist, right? There are so many different ways that someone can use all of their strengths in all of these specific little corners to really have all those legs under the table, like you said. So I find that it’s, yeah, you know, it’s really like, what works for you works for you. And sure, maybe some people listening might be like, Oh, I could never. And that’s totally fine too, because it’s really like, it’s whatever works. But I totally agree, like, having, having, like, different things going on, and you feel like you could still do them well, right? You’re not just, like, jumping around and like, leaving things, like, half done and like, it’s like, right now, it’s more like, No, I’m doing all these things because I genuinely care about them, and I’m getting them done well, and that’s what matters, right? Yeah. And then I also wanted to ask you, because you, you have a little bit of, like, the the more what I would say, like, the non Atelier starting point right? Since you started out without that, which is really interesting to me, because you still were able to find that network anyway. Because one of the, obviously, one of the beneficial things about going to one of those schools is you’re not just paying for the school and the education and the staff. You’re also paying a little bit for the network and connections you get from those places.

Tanner Steed: 49:37

Certainly, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 49:37

yeah. What was it like for you to build that connection and those networking groups outside of these schools.

Tanner Steed: 49:46

Well, I think I just got really, really lucky with, you know, discovering that Dan was here in Denver. I. But he the only reason why he responded to the email was he said, Oh my gosh, this guy is persistent. He said, Tanner was persistent. And I think if you were not going to an art school or an atelier, you need to do research and see if you’re unable or not willing to move out of your local area. You need to find out what artists that are making it and that you respect, not just, you know, using people or whatever in your local area, but if you genuinely respect and appreciate what they’re doing. Find out who is within an hour of you. It’s very likely that there is someone, you know, being an artist, we tend to be more on the introverted side, and we, you know, stay in our studios and don’t really reach out and we see social media. But I think you’d be surprised with how many people are actually around you who are in the exact same situation as you. So if, if it isn’t a local legend nearby or whatever, maybe make a plein air painting group, try to create community yourself by posting on social media and say, Hey, I’m meeting up in Denver or at the Platte River or going to red rocks or whatever, wherever your local area is. And just say I’m going to go paint there. If anyone’s like to join. Come hang out and I I’ve I’m lucky in that I was born with a temperament to make friends. Everywhere I go, I tend to to find it pretty easy to engage with people. So I understand that for people who are more introverted, that that that can be a little bit more difficult. But for those people, if anyone’s listening and is like that when I if you remember earlier in the station, I said that when I was in elementary school, I was very, very quiet and very introverted. Well, the transition from elementary to middle school, I realized that because no one knew me in middle school, I could reinvent myself. I said, You know what? I am tired of being the quiet kid in the back of the room that doesn’t really talk to anyone. I want to make friends and be a new person. So consider that you have many opportunities to do that in in life if you’re aware of it, and you could choose that right now and post on social media or whatever and just say hey, if anyone wants to meet up and make a friend, you can do that. There are absolutely people local or even online. There are many online communities that you can look into. I teach online too, and I know a lot of other artists who also do that, and you can meet up digitally with people too. But I really lucked out with the Wednesday group here. There are so many fabulous people in Denver, and they’re all so I found that the best artists are usually very, very humble and very open to sharing their their knowledge, because you can explain how to draw and paint as much as you want, you know the but you have to put in the hard work in order to get there. So most of the best artists are not hiding anything. They’re like, Sure, I’ll explain this. And yeah, you have, you have to put in the work.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:11

Definitely, yeah, yeah. And that’s it is true. You got to come out of your shell, and you got to reach out to people. Because I think oftentimes, also, especially in the beginning, we hope and wish that you know some opportunities just gonna land on our lap, like, that’s that’s not gonna happen unless you know you’re lucky enough to be like, you know the child of very wealthy parents who have a great network connections, and they already have friends, and they could just laugh about how wonderful your art is. But if you’re like most people who really work hard for it, no you you have to put that word out for yourself. You have to find that community and build it too. I think other people. Are also hoping they’ll become part of the community, instead of realizing you can just start one, right?

Tanner Steed: 55:05

Absolutely,

Laura Arango Baier: 55:06

yeah, yeah, totally. And I know that you’ve already given, like, a ton of really awesome advice, but do you have any final advice for someone to become a full time artist?

Tanner Steed: 55:20

Well, I already said you just have to put in the work. Let’s see. Well, I I think this may be controversial, but I think it’s actually easy to make it. As an artist, I think if you’re willing to put in the work and you believe that it’s possible like truly believe, then it’s going to be easy. You just put one foot in front of the other and talk with all of the people you you look up to reach out to them on Instagram, whatever you’re going to be able it hard work shows, and if you’re persistent, it pays off. And what’s what’s difficult is not making it and selling your art. That’s that’s a side thing. What is truly difficult is comparing yourselves to the Masters in the museum. That is the goal. For that is my goal. And it’s a wild, extraordinary goal, to be respected, not just by your peers, but to be respected by those masters in art history. And I’m going to work for the rest of my life trying to achieve that. And, you know, it’s, it may take 50 years before I paint something that’s worth, you know, sitting next to a Rembrandt or Vermeer or whatever, whoever. But I’m just, I’m gonna give it everything I’ve got and, and I hope you do too, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 57:29

yes. I mean, it’s, it’s definitely very contagious motivation. So yeah, and actually, what you mentioned, it reminds me of a quote that I read recently, which I really loved, which is that real freedom is actually mastery over the self, because it’s there’s no way around it, right? Like if you’re tied down by your own bad habits or your own limiting beliefs, like you’re not going to be free to pursue these higher goals, right? So Self Mastery, which is everything that you’ve been describing, right? Like, being consistent, showing up anyway, putting in the hours, like, that’s all self mastery. And that makes perfect sense, too, because you did study like, how to learn, learning, how to learn like. So it’s baseline, the most important way to figure out how to even do the thing and then go from there. So, yeah, awesome, awesome. And then do you have any upcoming shows or any fun stuff that you would like to promote?

Tanner Steed: 58:35

Sure, let’s see, by the time this podcast comes out, tomorrow night will be over. No tonight. Oh my gosh. I have a show tonight. I have a show tonight at Saks galleries in Cherry Creek. It’s a group show with all the people in the Wednesday night figure drawing group that I was talking about. It’s called in good company. It’s going to be fantastic. I have a piece going to the art renewal center Sotheby’s exhibition I recently, let’s see last year, Dan sprick and I on the way to teach in Rome, we stopped by Egypt and got to paint there for nine days, and I’ve painted a whole series based on that extraordinary experience. And one of those pieces is the Sphinx painting. You can actually see behind me, that little sphinx up there that that’s the one I did on location. And from that, I did a larger piece, just 18 by 24 that’s going to be going to Sotheby’s at the yeah art renewal center show that’ll be in July. And then, let’s see. I’ve got a couple upcoming workshops. I’m teaching in Rome through Rome art residencies and. And that’s in just three weeks. So I’ll probably be doing that again next year, and next year, April of 2027 I’ll be teaching a workshop on the Danube River. We’re doing a riverboat cruise where we’re going to paint, all along the way, in different cities. The boat will move overnight. We’ll park and then go paint on location and explore the city. It’ll be wonderful. We’ll do that for, I think, eight nights, and I think that’s it. I also teach here out of my studio. And, yeah, check my website for other things. I probably forgot something, but my website is Tanner steed art.com and Instagram is Tanner steed, art, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:07

perfect, awesome. And I hope, I sincerely hope, our listeners, go check out your work and go see it in person. As always, seeing art in person is a treat. It is amazing.

Tanner Steed: 1:01:18

Oh, it’s so much better than Instagram. My gosh, it just does not translate, does it?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:22

Yeah, there’s no way. So, yeah, thank you so much Tanner for giving us some of your precious time. You’ve been extremely busy. You had your wedding. You were leaving tomorrow. You have your show tonight. So thank you so much.

Tanner Steed: 1:01:35

Oh, it’s my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:38

of course. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode we sat down with Alyse Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of live painting at music festivals where she learned to paint intuitively “with the music.” She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, art college, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full-time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full-time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking, since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people, and learning basic marketing because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible artists often do well. Alyse also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors (e.g., newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards) and reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually, through small, steady steps rather than a single “big break.” Finally, Alyse tells us about her upcoming group show “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty” at Threyda Gallery in Denver, opening May 1, 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website.

Alyse’s FASO Site:
alyserussell.com/

Alyse’s Social Media:
instagram.com/alysefireflyart
facebook.com/AlyseFireflyArt/

Threyda Gallery “Bloom: A Kaleidoscope of Botanical Beauty”
threyda.com/pages/gallery

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Transcript:

Alyse Russell: 0:00

If you consistently put yourself out there, are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice. I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s it’s about perseverance. If you can have all the skill skill in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re going to sell any of them.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:18

Welcome to The FASO Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a gold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Elise Firefly Russell, a figurative painter whose work blends realism with surreal, colorful, often floral elements, a style that was largely shaped by years of life painting at music festivals, where she learned to paint intuitively with the music. She explains that her path included attending an art magnet school, Art College, and then gradually building a career through live painting gigs that evolved into larger festivals and gallery shows. Returning to full time painting after a break for family health issues, she describes dealing with imposter syndrome and how winning the BoldBrush contest and reconnecting with a gallery reassured her that she is indeed a professional artist. Her core practical advice for becoming a full time artist is to maintain consistent studio hours, treat art like a real job, and avoid burning out by overworking Since regular rest actually helps the work improve. She also emphasizes the importance of putting yourself out there by showing up at events, talking to people and learning basic marketing, because even highly skilled artists won’t sell if no one sees their work, while less technically skilled but visible, artists often do well. Elise also highlights nurturing relationships with collectors through newsletters, personal notes, holiday cards, and also reminds artists that careers usually grow gradually through small, steady steps rather than a single big break. Finally, Elise tells us about her upcoming group show, Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty at three to Gallery in Denver, opening may 1 2026 and running through the end of May, with the show also viewable online at the gallery’s website. Welcome Elise to The FASO Podcast. How are you today?

Alyse Russell: 2:18

I’m good. I’m good. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Laura Arango Baier: 2:22

I’m good. I’m excited to have you, because I think your work is so beautiful. I love the blending of the surreal and the figurative, especially figurative because I am also a figurative artist, and I love seeing how other artists express all of the different ways that we can celebrate the human body and make it interesting and beautiful and decorative. So I am excited to chat with you, also because you recently won the BoldBrush contest, and that’s actually how I saw your work, and was like, Oh my gosh, I got to interview her. So I’m happy to have you. So thank you for being here, and also thank you for being here with a very pained voice. So if you need to take little breaks, you can

Alyse Russell: 3:06

appreciate it,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:08

of course. And then before we dive into your actual work, your gorgeous work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Alyse Russell: 3:18

Well, I both times figurative artists. I actually recently dove back into painting full time, but it’s been a part of my life for a long time now, and I enjoy working on studio and all different types of settings, live, painting, traveling. I love traveling and music, and that’s pretty that’s pretty much all I have time for in my life this point. So, you know, not, not much else, not much else to me. I have three dogs that I love. And yes, that’s, that’s what encompasses most of my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Awesome, yeah. And I really love the live music aspect, because you’d mentioned to me, actually, that that inadvertently led you into becoming a full time artist, which I am so curious to hear about that. But also, like, did your path to becoming an artist start before that? Or, how did that get going for you?

Alyse Russell: 4:28

Um, it did. Yeah, I went to, I mean, I’ve always been, like, creatively inclined, like my whole ever since I, you know, as a small child, I think, and so I then I went to, like a magnet Art High School, and that’s where I have started learning more technique. It was very much just into the fun fundamentals, both realism and like design or design oriented. Said classes. And that’s where I first started oil painting. We had like a figure day and a still life day. And I was always really drawn to the painting. The figure from, from, really from, from that point. It was a little bit, I think it got a little bit tiring just because of, you know, being in school and having it be repetitive and, like, demanding. But I always enjoyed, enjoyed the figurative classes, that’s pretty much what started my my interest in realism and painting and then, but I didn’t really see myself as just becoming a painter. I figured that I would go into, like, a art adjacent type of field that be a little more stable, like, I don’t know what I hadn’t really gotten that far yet in my but maybe something in, like, fashion design, or something like, I considered maybe like art therapist, you know. So something related, but that has a more defined, like, career trajectory, yeah. And then I I actually had had left. I did go to F where art college, and I left there my senior year. I had some family, and my mom was sick at the time, so I come home, and I was, you know, working a part time job, and I started meeting some people who were doing live painting at, like, small music and arts events in Baltimore and I, I had shared some of my work with them, and they invited me to paint, which is, is very fun. It’s very different from a studio practice. So takes some getting used to, especially because, like everyone, at least at the time that I was painting with painted in acrylics, which is much more manageable when you’re painting in a in a venue live. But I I don’t like acrylics. I’ve actually gotten a little more into them in recent years, just as, like, a sort of under painting kind of basis, um, but at the time, I was like, No, I hate this plastic paint, and I don’t, I want to bring oil to all the events, which I did. So that was a little bit of a learning curve to be able to, you know, cleaning up is kind of a mess, like when you don’t have an art studio and everything. But yeah, it was, it was very fun. And it was, there’s something about like I would paint a little bit more intuitively. I’m sort of going with the music, so to say, and I would like, I would have a figure reference, right, like, to kind of be the main focal point of the painting, and then for the rest of the painting, I would kind of intuitively add more surreal effects, or, like, floral that kind of thing, into the work. And that’s kind of how my my voice developed, as far as, like, what I’d like to paint, and, yeah, you just kind of evolve from there. I yeah, I started doing more, more live painting. And it’s something where, like, at parts with the small, smaller events. It’s something where you might just, just be live painting, or you might have, you know, prints for sale, like, just, like paper prints for sale, something like that. And then from there that went to painting at larger but not huge festivals. I don’t do any of the like, really large ones, but bigger festivals, which would have, like a whole gallery set up, and then the live painting as well. So which, yeah, it’s super fun, and I still love to do. I don’t do as as many anymore as I used to, but I still at least do a couple festivals a year. And, yeah, I still love it. It’s, it’s. Tiring, and it’s a lot to kind of paint in that environment, but it’s very fun, and I think you do get some you have to kind of think quickly, or you won’t be putting a painting together. So it’s it’s a good place to kind of branch out and have more intuitive work and maybe surprise yourself a little bit with what you would want to put in a painting. Yeah, and I do like, I do a little like for the long for the festivals, it would be like three to three days of painting. So I do plan a little bit for the for the painting, but I don’t plan like every detail like I would maybe a longer studio piece. So it can be kind of fun that way. And just being inspired by the other live painters and the music and just the different setting and like the, you know, it’s definitely brings its own vibe to the painting. And, you know, it’s is visually inspiring, and, you know, musically inspiring. And I think that does kind of come across in the in the work, or influence the work, which is, yeah, very enjoyable, I think, and something that a lot, not everyone, has gotten to experience, painting that way,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:32

yeah. I mean, just hearing about it, I feel a little bit stressed.

Alyse Russell: 11:38

It can be, oh my gosh, I will tell you, is a little bit of a side tangent. But the last year, I painted at Mountain Music Festival in West Virginia, and I was actually starting out with an acrylic under painting, which I’ve started doing now at festivals, just to make with the dry times and everything, just so I can get something down wet into wet paint the entire time. And I was asked, or they had given, a lot of the artists an opportunity to paint with one of the bands on stage. So that was very fun. I painted for a bluegrass band called Shadow grass, and I was on stage with them, like, not directly with them, but there was, like, a portion of the stage that they had kind of curtains off so that you were away from the band’s stuff. And you know, it, it was, it was kind of last minute, like, I didn’t know, going into this festival that I was going to be at this, and I was painting it acrylics that I was, I You couldn’t, you know, bring oil onto the stage for like, safety reasons with the turpentine, like, you know, that kind of stuff. So I had to, like, I didn’t have a lot of paint. That was, like, I had only brought, like, I think I was just doing under, under painting and like, a kind of terror about that sort of color. I don’t think it was called, like, whatever the acrylic paints called, I don’t know, but it was like, it was like, a terror about the color, and that’s all I had brought. So basically, get gather a bunch of paint from other people so that I could have a, you know, a palette to continue the painting up there. And it was live, and there was, you know, a whole audience watching me. It was very stressful. It was very stressful. It was very fun, though. And I, you know, I don’t think I’ve ever painted that quickly in my entire life, because it was like everyone is whole audience staring at me, and I’m, like, trying to make it look like fun for everyone, like I’m doing something, and I’m not just, you know how painting is, like, a lot of the time you’re really just like, staring at your painting. So very entertaining for people, I don’t think so. I was trying to, like, really be expressive and, like, to, you know, painting the whole time, and I got the entire figure blocked in, like, I think it was like a, it was even, I think it was a 24 by 30. Actually, it’s a piece that I, I started. I started this piece at Mountain Music Festival last year. It’s actually going in this upcoming show that I have as well. So, so yeah, so that’s a fun coincidence. But yeah, it sorry. So side tangent, but talking about a big, stressful live painting that was about the most high stress situation. It was very fun, but it was definitely like I felt like a lot of pressure,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:58

for sure, for sure. Sure, which you know two things about that one, I bet you know, to some extent it’s like, you probably don’t get that much, you know, people looking at you the entire time when you’re normally, you know, working on in your stall, like on your paintings at the music festivals. But also I feel like, uh, probably your experience at magnet school may have, uh, prepared you pretty well, because I know that this, I mean, I also went to a magnet school, so I know that it’s extremely stressful and, like, demanding high it’s like the amount of criticism and judgment and workload is insane, so it must be nice to at least channel it in a happier location.

Alyse Russell: 15:46

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, I think it said. I think that did prepare me for and just the gradual that, and like, getting ready for gallery shows and different things, like, there’s other high stress situations definitely helped prepare me for that. And it’s also, it’s like, once I was up there, there wasn’t anything I could do about it. So then I then I pretty much was just enjoying myself once I got kind of into it, you know? But, yeah, I would stop to like, you know, you naturally stop when you’re painting to like, just like, observe your painting and see what your corrections you need to make, or, you know, whatever. And I would, every time I would stop, I’d be like, Oh no, I need to paint more, because there’s all these people watching me, you know. And it was, it was, it was very fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:43

That’s really awesome too, because, you know, like you mentioned before, there’s a certain level of intuitive painting that has to happen. Since you’re on the spot, you’re being watched, and it’s, of course, you can’t, like you said, you plant some but then you also have all the unexpected things, like how that happened, where you’re suddenly in front of everybody, or just like, I bet, also, because I did want to ask you about, you know, what your greatest inspiration and influence is, I’m assuming also, you know, to some extent, like the music itself also inspires you to move in a particular color range with your work or in a particular emotion, right?

Alyse Russell: 17:26

Yes, I guess they think so. It definitely has a has a big influence. I think it’s more subconscious. Like, I don’t put a lot of real thought into like, Oh, I’m hearing it, or I’m seeing that. It’s kind of just a subconscious like process. I think that it’s definitely made my paintings more colorful. Um, I think it’s a very colorful environment, so I think that that has was definitely way that it influenced my work. I Yeah, and then just, it’s kind of a, you know, just the the feeling, like the emotional tone of the festival, I think is a big, big influence. Um, yeah. I otherwise, like I, you know, it’s funny, I don’t listen to music a lot when I paint anymore in the studio sometimes, but I don’t know, I usually just have some random background noise on so that I don’t get like. I’ll either get like too hyper, focused, or what I’m doing forget to eat, or, you know, stuff like that, or I or I’m like, I’ll stop because there’s no background noise. So I just have like a TV on, or something like, I won’t be paying attention to it, but I just have like, something on in the background. And, yeah, as far as other artists influence, um, I don’t know. I think you know, of course, like any of the greats and like real, you know, John Singer, Sergeant, they call the normal things that everyone says, I guess, um, then I do love some oh my gosh, that’s his name. Of course, it’s like, I can never think of anyone’s names when I want that, even if I’m very familiar. I

Laura Arango Baier: 19:33

really

Alyse Russell: 19:37

Oh my gosh. Him is Oh. It’ll come back to me. It’ll come back to me later. Why my brain does that? But it’s just like, I don’t know.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:51

Yeah. Like you get asked, and suddenly you forget. It happens to me too. I swear I know things. Yeah. Know who I’m talking about. It’ll come back. So no worries, when you remember, you can you can mention it

Alyse Russell: 20:06

got you, yeah, it’ll when I stop trying to think of

Laura Arango Baier: 20:09

it Exactly, that’s exactly how it works. But yeah, yeah, I think a lot of those old masters, and you know, the more recent masters, are also really great influences, especially for figurative and realistic work. And then I wanted to ask you as well, when you get an idea, you know, where does it begin? Does it start with, like an image or a feeling? How does, how does a piece start for you? And then, what is that process like?

Alyse Russell: 20:43

Um, I think there’s two kinds of ways, usually like, depending on if I am shooting all my own reference photos or not. Because I don’t always, like, I would love to have time and everything to to shoot everything myself, as far as the figure reference. Um, but when I don’t, especially when I’m a lot of times when I’m live painting, or when I’m doing, like, these quick things, I don’t have time to, like, prepare all of that beforehand. So I will use pose space, and I’ll just, so basically, I’ll think of, like, you know, it’s going to be a figurative work. So I will kind of look through and until I find a pose that just like, strikes something with me. Like, Oh, that’s really that makes me feel something like, that’s a really nice pose. And then, usually when I work that way, I’ll be a little bit more intuitive, and I will just kind of have like, like, compose something with the central figure where I want it, and then I’ll kind of let the rest sort of just intuitively come into the painting, yeah, and I do end up making changes sometimes that way, because I’m like, Oh no, I didn’t like that. Let me Yeah. Like, I think the painting, oh, my God, wait, break in the clouds, the one I with, the that I wanted a brush with, I think, with that one, I originally had more Laurel in the background, and it just wasn’t working for me. So I changed all of that and changed color scheme. And yeah, I just, I’ll just let myself make like, I think you can’t be afraid to change your painting, or you never will get you know where you want to go, especially long term with your voice and how you want to paint. So yeah, like stuff like that will happen when I when I plan my own, like, this big thing behind me, basically, this is a friend of mine who models and did a shoot with her and I, so it’s going to be kind of a under, underwater, underwater, and not underwater scene, if that makes any sense. Was like, I got a sky, but it’s got like a like fish and coral and everything going on there. And for that, what I did was I I had my motto, and I bought a bunch of flowers that were, like coral colored, and I kind of arranged those around her, and then I had a tapestry in the back that was like a night sky. So I just had a suggestion of, like, you know, what the color scheme and painting was going to look like. So that’s a little more how worked for my larger. For my larger, more like studio work. And for those I think, I don’t know, I think it’s more of, yeah, an idea just kind of like a suggestion about an idea just coming to me, and then I just kind of develop it. If you’ve

Laura Arango Baier: 24:15

been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The FASO Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you’re a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you’re stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don’t miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next FASO show webinar is coming up on the 21st of May, with our special guest, Debra Keirce, you can find us, sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently. In desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH show.com. The FASO Podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, and I, again, I love how colorful it is, because I think it’s, it’s one of those things where it’s it’s very easy to be afraid of color, if that makes sense, but it’s really clear that you know, you have this way of using it and applying it in a way that shows through really well. I think, the way that you you compose your colors and the way that they work together in a piece, you’re welcome, and it just transmits so much joy also, which is why I really love looking at your work, because it’s just like, Ah, yes, this, this makes sense. It’s it’s happy, it’s beautiful, it’s well composed, like color wise composition, like figurative composition, it’s really great.

Alyse Russell: 27:24

You’re welcome.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

Yeah. And then I wanted to ask you too, because since you’ve been doing this full time for some time, have you noticed that your process has evolved in a particular way since you’ve been like, working more and more full time.

Alyse Russell: 27:41

Yes, I think I’m still a little bit all over the place right now. It’s just because I did take a period of time off from painting full time, just I had some family health issues going on, and I just didn’t I felt like I needed to, like art takes a lot of focus and energy, and I felt like I needed to just take a step back to prioritize other things. So, you know, but before that, when I really was working very much full time, I I adjusted to having a very regular schedule, and I think that helped a lot, like, I would hate pretty much nine to five, five days a week, just, you know, get up in the morning. I had a home studio, but I actually this is funny, I think. But I I like to feel like I was, like, leaving the house for work. So I actually my studio is the front room of my house, and there was the side door. So I actually put my couch in front of the door into my studio. So I had to go around my house and unlock the front door to get into my studio, and it just made me feel like I was having to get up and go to work, and not just like walking into the other room, but that helped me keep focused. And I think, yeah, like having a full time practice, having a regulated schedule, really helped my work improve, because the tendency to overextend myself painting, like you get really into your painting, and you’re like, oh, I can. I’ll just paint another couple hours. It’s fine, you know. And you like, haven’t eaten dinner, and you’re like, kitchens a mess, and you’re, you know, so, and what would end up happening is, I paint so much, but then then you’re, you’re not really making up any time, because then you get, like, burnt out, putting in long hours, you know? So I just, yeah, really. I made myself keep a consistent schedule as just regular studio practice hours, and that really helped help improve my my paintings and how I worked, because I was giving myself rest. And I think that I improve faster with it’s like you have time to absorb what you’re learning from your paintings, when you have time to just process and not be actively working. So I think that was important, and that did just make things more regular. I think I actually produced more work that way. And was, you know, just able to be more consistent and have better work?

Laura Arango Baier: 30:47

Yeah, yeah, those are that’s an excellent point, because I think there’s many artists out there, including myself and maybe some of our listeners, who have probably painted into the very wee hours of six in the morning from the previous day, and then it takes a few days to, like, properly recover from that, so suddenly it’s like, all these hours you put in, you could have just, like, put them in in a different way, where you weren’t putting your health, like, in a whirlwind of mess. So I totally relate, I think, and I totally agree there’s it’s so important to be consistent and to have that compartmentalization, right? Like, how you were saying having your studio separate, or, like, feeling like it’s a separate space that you’re stepping into. Because I think it’s also happened to me where it’s like, oh, it’s not room over there. I’m just gonna, like, I just walk in, but there’s no real sense of I’m walking into my workplace now. And I think that’s something else that maybe some of us struggle with. So it’s a great point as well. And then I wonder, yes, oh, yeah,

Alyse Russell: 31:56

oh, sorry. I was just gonna say that that’s, you know, having taken time off and going, like, that’s what I’m actually trying to take my own advice right now and get back to that. Because I, I was nervous. I had a little bit of imposter syndrome coming. So I was like, am I a full time I’m not a full time artist anymore. Am I a professional artist? Like, I don’t know, you know. So I, I start. I took a lot when I made the decision, this is only back in December of last year, so I really only been painting full time again, quote, unquote, since January of this year. And I was very nervous about it, because I, yeah, I had that little bit of imposter syndrome. And it was very affirming when the when the BoldBrush, just that movie works. I was like, Oh no, I’m good. I’m good. Like, I’m I’m a professional. I can do this, you know. And, and then I picked up a gallery that I had worked with reached out to me right after that. So I was like, okay, like, oh, it’s like a big relief off of me to like, okay, I can start. I can build this back up again. And so, yeah, now I’m working on, I took a big workload just trying to get myself back in the door. But now I’m working on trying to regulate my schedule back to how it was and have more consistent same hours. Yeah, it could be a lot. And of course, like having the consistent hours always does go out the window a little bit. I think when you have, like, a big deadline or something, because what are you going to do? You know?

Alyse Russell: 33:37

Yeah, I think it’s important that I’m working on getting back to that,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:42

yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, catching you in this very particular window of time is also very interesting, because I think it is also it happens. And it will happen to every artist, really you have this period of time or like, work, work, work, work, work, and then life happens, right? And you have to step away for a little while. For some people might be having kids, for some people might be an accident. So I think it’s what you’re going through now, is literally, like, Ah, of course, you know, like being able to have, like, a reliable way to step back into the studio, like having that consistency again, having, you know the support system for yourself, because it can be really hard as a self employed person, like, no one’s telling you what to do. No one’s telling you what time to show up, right? Like being a good boss with yourself without being a mean boss. Like, no, no, you’re only working this hour to this hour, right? For example, I think catching you in this time is is really great, because it’s an interesting transitional phase, right? Because you went full time and then took a pause and now back to full time. So I think it’s Yeah, I think it’s a testament too, because I’ve also been a bit of a hiatus, and hearing you say, Oh, well, I. Was able to get back into it, and I’m still alive, and it’s going well, it’s like, oh, that kind of, you know, makes me feel like, Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, you’re consistent. And you tell yourself, I can do this and I can go back into the studio, and even if I’m not painting, I’m still an artist, which I think is another thing that many of us struggle with. It’s like, How can I be an artist if I don’t paint? I think it’s good to hear that it is okay to take a break, and it is okay to get back into it, and to feel a little funny about it at first, but to just keep going. You know,

Alyse Russell: 35:33

yeah, for sure, I It’s definitely been I didn’t imagine that it was gonna go jinx myself right? Like, you know, but it went, it went a lot quicker than I imagined. I was like, I don’t see it almost a little overwhelming, because I was like, Oh yeah, it is okay, you know. But I’m, I’m very grateful. Like, I could not be more grateful at how, how smoothly it’s gone so far, and especially because I was nervous, you know? And, yeah, just, I’m grateful for all my recent opportunities and this opportunity, and I’m super happy to be painting again full time, like it’s it’s been, really, I’ve missed that. I, you know, I’m definitely one of those people, like, I need to paint or I’ll be a little bit insane. So it’s been, it’s been very nice, despite a little hectic, but it’s been very nice. And I’m hoping I’ll, yeah, get into a little more easy flow schedule here soon.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:42

Yeah, that’s awesome. Um, and then I wanted to ask you, so the first time you became full time, what? What was the moment where you realize, excuse me, the moment where you realize, oh my gosh, I’m making a living from this. I’m, like, full time. Like, what was that like for you?

Alyse Russell: 37:01

I mean, it’s, it’s a good feeling. I think that when I, like, I probably quit my part time job before I really should have, but, you know, because so there was a little bit of a rough transition the first time around there where was painting full time. But I don’t know if I was super comfortable thinking, though, but that’s okay, but, you know, I got through it. It was very exciting, but it was, it was a lot of it was a lot of stress. I just it’s hard to, unfortunately, have even a part time job and try to be a full time artist, because it’s kind of like there’s only, feels like there’s only time for one or the other, or at least for me, like some people can have, oh, I do this job, and then I do this job, and then I do this, and it’s I, but I’m not that person, you know. So it, I think it went a little I had a period where I kind of said to myself, like, you know what? Because I had been down on myself after just struggling, like, a little bit financially, with only having art as an income. And there was just a moment where I said to myself, like, I, you know, I am art, like plenty of artists make good plenty good money selling art full time. And there’s no reason, because I was kind of thinking like, oh, I should have stayed in school. I should have done this or that, you know, I was like, You know what? Like, I don’t there’s no reason like I was like, I need to just really concentrate, start keeping make sure I have consistent hours. I need to really start paying more attention to marketing. You know, really be smart about the work I’m doing. And not just because a lot of you know, being a painter, you’re just like, you know, you’re like, obsessed, or like, I, you know, I think most people, you’re like, obsessed with your work and and just like, the process of working, and it’s kind of like, I mean, I think for me, it’s something I sort of would have to have to do to some degree. I’m not making any money on it, you know. So I think because I get to a place where I was like, Okay, I have to be smarter about this and and think about the financial aspect more strategically, and really make a commitment to that. And then I think once I did that, it was very free flowing, and it felt really good, you know. And, yeah, things became more consistent. And just over time, like, you kind of think there’s going to be this big break moment, but for me, it’s, it wasn’t like that. It was just like little steps, you know, until I was like, oh, you know what, I’m actually. Uncomfortable, like, I’m good, you know. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:08

awesome, yeah. And I find that, you know, for most people, I think that’s how it is, because I feel like I totally agree with the you think there’s going to be, like, a moment where, like, there’s a windfall of, like, I don’t know, like, a ton of shows or, like, bunch of sales. But I think just focusing on, like, those consistent little steps is so I feel like it is so stabilizing, you know, it’s so like, Okay, this is the solid ground that I can rely on. And if there is, like, a sudden windfall where, like, I sell a bunch of work, that’s awesome. But that’s the hard part about being an artist as well. You know, like, the you’re gonna have, like, times for there’s a lot coming in, and there’s gonna be times when you don’t have too much coming in. So you have to find, you know, all those ways to fill in the gaps, especially now economically, we’re in the craziest time. Yes, but I also wanted to ask you, you know, what is something that you wish you knew when you started out that you now, know,

Alyse Russell: 41:09

um, you know, honestly, I think that would pretty much be it like that, you know, you just have to, there’s not going to be a moment. Or at least for me, there wasn’t where you’re like, Oh, I’ve made it now. Like, it’s very gradual. It kind of happened before I even noticed. I thought to myself, like, one day, like, Oh, I was actually putting, like, a new commission in my calendar. And I was like, Oh, I have six months of commissions right now. Like, books. Like, I don’t like, I, you know what I mean? And I was like, Oh, I like, Oh, I like, do this full time, like, all my money is good, like, I’m, you know, it’s like, so happened so gradually, it’s like I didn’t even notice, like, I didn’t even notice at first that that that’s where I was, you know, I think it would have been helpful at the start of my career to know that, like, it was going to be so gradual, like that. Because it’s not like I was expecting, like, to just blow up overnight or something, but you kind of, I guess I was thinking, like I would get into a really good gallery or something, and then it would be, like, smooth sailing, or like, it would be this kind of moment, but no, just kind of, like, consistency, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:30

nice, yeah, no, it’s, it’s how I think, I think that’s a hard part too, that it is so gradual that for Anyone, like, in early stages of the career, right, where they’re still getting their footing, it almost feels like nothing’s happening, until, you know, you have that moment like you where it’s like, oh, my calendar is full. Like I I’m doing this all day, like I’m I don’t have my job anymore, of course. So this is my job. And I think you know, having that patience as well to, like, settle down and realize, okay, what’s the next project, what’s the next thing, and also putting yourself out there, which actually, this leads me to my next question, which is, how did you find your first collectors, and what have you learned from that process of finding these collectors?

Alyse Russell: 43:21

So my first collector, who’s been one of my biggest supporters, and he he still collects my work. He has, he has a lot of my pieces. Actually, I think he’s pretty much gotten something from every like major show or exhibition or something like that I’ve done. And I met him at one of the first music festivals that I like painted at. I actually have some large original work there, which is a little risky, because it’s now I don’t take the big pieces out to shows anymore. I just bring like chic, like prints, you know. But he, he bought it. Was a four by five foot large painting. And he, he bought that. I think he actually gave me a deposit there. And then, you know, we, you know, exchanged information, and he purchased that after the festival. And that was, yeah, that was a big help. And I think, as far as collectors, I think what’s really important is, you know, it’s buying art is a very like personal, personal thing. And you know, when people purchase your work, it’s, it’s such a good feeling, because they a lot of times feel so emotionally connected to it. And you. For me, sometimes doing a painting is like, it’s like, I just have to get this out of me, this expression. And like, once the painting is done, like I kind of, I’m like, I have, like, a moment, a few moments where, like, a day or two, where I’m like, oh so happy with my piece. And then after that, I’m kind of like, okay, like, I don’t want this anymore. Like, I don’t want to look at this ever again. And so it’s, it’s great to have someone be like, I love this. And it makes me feel, you know, this type of way. It reminds me of this or, you know, and and I want to look at this in my home for the rest of my life, you know, essentially. And like, it’s such a wonderful feeling. And so, yeah, so it’s very, I think, very, very personal having collectors, and especially like repeat collectors, you know, and you know, they’re very invested in you, I think. And so I like to really show that you know that I appreciate that. And I used to be very consistent with, like, my email newsletters again, getting something I’m getting back into again. But I think that’s important for me. I also like to do, I’ll send Christmas cards to all my collectors, and I’ll do like, a little, you know, tiny, like sketch painting that’s like our original sketch, and I’ll sign it and have a little note and send those. And I think things like that, things like that, are important to show you know, how much I appreciate my collectives, and that sometimes I feel like I care more about my work than I do, like whatever you know, like, get this out of here, and that you know that. So it’s just nice to have people feel moved by my work. And, yeah, I think that’s that’s just just maintaining that. So just letting them know that you you appreciate them is important. I think how you maintain and keep keep them coming back to to buy more work, or look at more work, or, you know, any, anything, or just, or, you know, like, I’ve had a I’ve had a few repeats, quite a few repeat, like, commission collectors, too. So I think that’s nice. And I think it’s, yeah, just making it personal, and, you know, letting them know that you appreciate them?

Laura Arango Baier: 47:42

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think the other really cool thing that you mentioned there is, you know, you met one of them at a live music show, right? Like, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned many times, actually, on the podcast, and it always comes up, and that is the importance of physically going out there and talking to people. You know, if someone’s asking about one of your pieces, or if you have, like, a show exhibition, anything your work is there, someone comes up and looks at the painting. Talk to them. You know, like it’s so important to talk to people, because you might, you know, learn something from this person. Maybe they buy something, maybe they don’t. But I think you know, most collectors, and you might attest to this, most collectors, they buy the work, not just because they love it, but because they also got to know the artist and appreciate who the artist is as a person, right? So you know that really highlights the importance of networking, you know, putting yourself out there, talking to people, you know,

Alyse Russell: 48:45

yeah, for sure, yeah, I think that it’s really important. I tried to get to all my show openings, if possible. It’s not always possible. I’m excited to go. I’ve never been to the gallery at the next show I have upcoming. I’ve never been to this gallery, and I’m going, it’s in Denver, and I’m going out, so I’ve never been. I’m excited. I haven’t met any of these people yet because, just because Denver is far from me, but, yeah, very exciting. And, you know, it’s, it’s so much fun to meet everyone and hear, I love to hear people’s perspective on my work, because I like to leave, I mean, I think there are, of course, like meetings in my work, but I like to leave it a little bit open to interpretation, because sometimes I’ll have a collector or or just someone come up and talk to me about my work, and they’ll say something about it that I hadn’t even thought of, but then I’m like, Oh my God, that’s so true. And I was actually going through something like that at the time that I made this painting. And, you know, so it’s so funny that you should mention that, and I never even thought about that, you know. And. So I think that really adds to the work and makes it just more of a, you know, like you think a painting is done, but it’s kind of adds on to that process of the painting and like what the painting is about. And I love hearing what what other people have to say with their interpretations. And I think that people do that’s something that’s big, live painting. A lot of I usually don’t sell the live painting like at the event, because it’s, it’s going to come home with me and get, you know, touched up and signed and varnished and all that. But a lot of the paintings I have sold to someone from the festival, and it being that they came and chatted with me about the painting and what it was about, and how they were interpreting it, and and then, of course, they got to see me. I don’t finish them per se at the festival, but I try to get them, like, locked in in a way that’s everything that’s going to kind of be in the finished painting is in there, and you can tell what’s going on. And, like, maybe the focal point is kind of a little more finished. And so, yeah, people really like to they felt connected to the work that way. It’s really fun. It makes the paintings that are done that way, I think, a little bit special, extra special, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:29

yeah, yeah. And also, because it’s a moment that you shared with some of the people who have observed it, right? It’s like, oh my gosh, yeah. It’s like that one time that I met you at that festival, and this is like the physical memory of like having been there and having had a great time. And I think that’s the other beautiful thing with painting, especially when you’re painting, something that really comes from your soul, right from from within, from that inner voice, is that it speaks to someone else, and also it creates a connection, through memory, through sense, through all of these things that you know, if you hadn’t been there and you’d been painting in your studio, wouldn’t quite be the same. There’s, of course, people still love studio paintings, and they’ll buy them. But there is something extra special about you know, you know collectors, or possible collectors, just people watching a piece that they might be interested in in person like not a lot of people get the privilege of watching an artist paint live, mostly because we’re reclusive and we don’t want to be looked at. But hey, that could just be me.

Alyse Russell: 52:39

Yeah, yeah, no, it’s so it’s so true, and, you know, it’s funny, because I’m very, I don’t, I’m not live painting. I don’t want anybody, but, like, I hate recording my process and stuff, so it’s funny. I don’t want anybody in my studio, you know. So it really is something like, a little little bit special, a little different, dating, live, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:02

Yeah, and actually, I wanted to ask you as well, do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Alyse Russell: 53:19

Yeah. I mean, I think really just consistency is the key. Like, if you consistently put yourself out there and you know are taking that time to hone your skill and find your voice, I think that you know the sky’s the limit. Really, it’s, it’s just, it’s about perseverance, you know, it, I think it’s really just about putting yourself out there, because, like, ultimately, like, like, you know, if you, if you’re gonna have all the skill scale in the world, and if no one sees your paintings, you’re not going to sell any of them. So. And then, you know, on the flip side of that, you’ll see artists who, like, you know, I’m not saying anything about the you know, that to maybe not be my personal favorite, or I don’t think have the most technical skill, you know, but do very well, and you know, it’s because they put themselves out there and they learned how to market themselves, and they took chances, you know, to get where they are. Thank you. Just consistency, putting yourself, putting yourself out there and and that helps you, yeah, find your voice as well, just consistently keeping going,

Laura Arango Baier: 54:49

absolutely, absolutely. And then you get all of the crazy opportunities by putting yourself out there, which is what you said as well. And speaking of opportunities, do you mind telling us about your. Upcoming show?

Alyse Russell: 55:02

Yeah, of course. Upcoming show is that gallery called tereda. I hope I’m not. It’s one of such funny things where I’ve never heard anyone say it, so I hope that’s how you pronounce it. I’ve only ever seen it written down the Rada, and it’s kind of a psychedelic art gallery in Denver, Colorado, and, yeah, it’s, it’s, I haven’t been there in person, so I’m actually really excited to go. I’ve seen a lot of pictures. There’s a lot of artists that I whose work I really love, and, you know who I’ve looked up to, have have worked there, have shown there, and they’re, they’re really wonderful gallery. They’re always very professional and do a great job with everything. I’m very excited to see the show. It’s a group show. It is called Bloom, a kaleidoscope of botanical beauty. It is a group show, opening may 1, 2026, and then I doesn’t stay here, but I believe it’s just running through the rest of the month, May to June, and the opening reception is May 1. And then can it’s Yeah, once it’s up, you can view all the work from the show. You’ll be able to view all the work from the show on a website to be ww.sereda.com, T, H, R, E, y, D, A, and, yeah, very excited about that. Awesome. And, yeah, I’m excited to see everyone else’s work. Of course, I haven’t seen anybody yet, so, yeah, very exciting. Yeah, see real paintings in real life is like the best thing ever?

Alyse Russell: 57:03

Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I’m looking forward. It’ll be a it’ll be a good show. And, yeah, there’s not many upcoming, and that’s the only gallery that I’m currently working with as of right now, and just really have nothing else going on yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:33

Not yet, exactly,

Alyse Russell: 57:34

yeah, but

Laura Arango Baier: 57:35

yeah. But if someone does want to see more of your work and maybe stay up to date, where can they do

Alyse Russell: 57:43

that? My website, www Elise firefly.com and Instagram would be at Elise Firefly arts and, yeah, keep up with me on both of theirs. I’m pretty up to date on Instagram, usually my website. I am starting up my new email newsletter again. So if anyone, it’s usually like monthly to bi monthly. Usually send out, but that will have all the updates on upcoming shows, studio sales, anything like that, and just kind of behind the scenes of my work process, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 58:29

and then I’ll include all your links as well in the show notes, and then your newsletter link, and then the show link so people can go check out your your upcoming show. But yeah, well, thank you so much, Elise for the conversation. I feel very, very seen and validated and inspired. So thank you so much.

Alyse Russell: 58:51

Yes, thank you that was, that was that was great. That was very fun. I feel that, yeah, that felt very validating for me as well. So thank you so much for having me,

Laura Arango Baier: 59:04

of course, and I’m excited to see your future work as well.

Alyse Russell: 59:08

Thank you. Yes, I’m very excited. Got to finish this large piece back here next I think. So that’ll be fun, and I’ll have Yeah, I’m very excited to be back at it.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:23

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On today’s episode we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite park ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings blend rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored abstraction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry, and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms, and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full-time painter and seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect people emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory, and truly knowing one’s subject—whether it’s a cliff face, endangered owl, or peregrine falcon. Over time his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission: using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists to be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long-term perseverance, and on building real human connections—with collectors, galleries, and fellow artists—rather than chasing awards or trends. J Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite (opening May 4), as well as group shows including the California Art Club Gold Medal Exhibition, the Art Renewal Center Salon in New York, and invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year.

James’ FASO site:
jamesmcgrewfineart.com/

James’ Social Media:
facebook.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

instagram.com/jamesmcgrewfineart/

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Transcript:

James McGrew: 0:00

I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me like she’s saying, like, you gotta, you gotta just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true and I but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work. And, you know, getting those those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:42

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. On today’s episode, we sat down with James McGrew, a landscape oil painter and longtime interpretive Yosemite Park Ranger whose representational landscapes and wildlife paintings lent rigorous scientific understanding with a deep emotional commitment to environmental education. James shares how a lifelong bond with Yosemite and early encouragement from teachers and family pushed him toward a career in representational painting, even when art schools favored obstruction. He explains how studying biology, geology, chemistry and environmental education deepened his understanding of light, landforms and ecosystems, making his landscapes more convincing and meaningful. James describes his dual life as a full time painter and a seasonal Yosemite interpretive ranger, using both roles to connect with people, emotionally and intellectually to the natural world. He emphasizes the power of working from life, developing visual memory and truly knowing one subject, whether it’s a cliff face endangered owl or peregrine falcon. Over time, his motivation has shifted from personal inspiration to a clear conservation mission, using art as a vehicle to advocate for fragile ecosystems and endangered species. He also advises aspiring artists be true to themselves, spend time in nature, focus on long term perseverance and on building real world, human connections with collectors, galleries and fellow artists, rather than chasing awards or trends. Finally, James tells us about his upcoming solo show at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite, opening may 4 as well as group shows, including the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibition, the art renewal center salon in New York, and Invitational events at Grand Canyon and Zion later this year. Welcome James to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

James McGrew: 2:47

Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m doing well.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:50

Thank you. I’m excited to have you. Yes, I’m excited to have you because your work is beautiful and it is so authentic. How much you love nature, which, of course, we will touch so much more on where that stems from. But I’m very excited to have you to be able to pick your brain about your work and your inspiration and how you are a multi disciplinary person, which is really awesome because you have so many things to pull from. But before we dive into all of that good stuff, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

James McGrew: 3:23

Sure, so I My name is James McGrew. I’ve been a full time professional artist for about 30 years, and for about 25 summer seasons. I was an interpretive park ranger in Yosemite as well, seasonally for about a couple months each summer. And so whether I’m doing my painting or photography or video work or writing or having done, you know, programs, presentations, or teaching a workshop, one hour workshop, or a photography workshop, it’s really kind of all the same thing. I think of myself as an environmental educator. So it’s all just different ways of using different vehicles for communication to connect people with the places that I love.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yes, yeah. And you know that goes back to the you are an absolute nature lover. I think, I don’t think I’ve ever met someone as involved and as enthusiastic, motivated to really dive into the importance of conservation and environmentalism and nature and also be a phenomenal artist. I think that’s one of the coolest things. You’re welcome. So I wanted to ask you, too, because you’ve always had this love of nature, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

James McGrew: 4:44

That’s that’s tough to say, because it was so early that I don’t remember a lot of things really well back then, I’ve come across some photos of me at the dining room table with watercolors painting when I was, like, four years old. If. I do remember getting in trouble in school and math class around third grade frequently for drawing Yosemite drawing, kind of all the time so. And then when I was eight years old, my aunt gave me a set of pastels, soft pastels, and and then another friend of our family, about a year later, another much bigger set of Rembrandt soft pastels, and then my dad gave me oils that he had the from college when I was 10. So it’s been as long as I can remember, really, but that’s just the actual act of painting, drawing. The bigger part of that the deep resource that I draw upon, the inspiration for all the artwork, is just my connection with nature. And that goes back even further. So when I was four months old, my parents first took me backpacking in Yosemite, not with a pack of my back. You know, I was the backpack, but they have photos of me and in Yosemite National Park in the back country, and they said I was just enthralled with my eyes wide open and my mouth open, just looking up at the cliffs. And I don’t quite remember that trip some reason, but I do remember a few years later, about six to eight years old, and one really important trip when I was eight years old for my birthday, and we were backpacking in hecheschi and the northwestern part of Yosemite, and that was a record snowpack year, with massive snow melt in late June, with the waterfalls raging and thundering. And it just had such a vivid impact on me, emotionally, mentally, and I can still remember it. Fact, I remember getting in trouble in school, drawing from that trip just behind the waterfalls, they were so big, you know, later on, so the next year in school. So I think that background the art path is just it’s been there for a really long time.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:54

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Would you say that your I guess, desire to turn it into more of a career. Was that something that started or, you know, like maybe early as well, like when you were maybe in high school, or was that like later down the line?

James McGrew: 7:13

Well, you know, it was always there. As long as I can remember, there were times that I thought about it and things. But of course, there’s always the thing that you hear from so many people, starving artists. You can’t make a living as an artist. And so on my I have to credit my my family, for tremendous amount of support and always encouraging me, and also a lot of teachers along the way. And I remember my sixth grade art teacher, she told my parents at a teacher parent conference like, you know, I normally tell students don’t plan to make a career as an artist, but you really should encourage your son to do so. And so they did, and they told me that, which, you know, I so I think, you know, it’s really, I have to give a lot of credit to other people for helping steer that path. I mean, I’ve always had that energy and that notion, but when I was in high school. I didn’t quite know what it was that I really want to do. I painted all the time, and was always studying work and and then when I went to look into going to college, actually, for my high school senior project, we had to do something that would be a legitimate career. And at that time, I was I loved art, I loved nature, and I loved bonsai, which is a form of art with, you know, potted small trees. And so I thought, well, it could incorporate all these things together. And I thought, well, landscape architecture, perhaps. So I did a thing on that at the time, just a little kind of interlude. And I think part of that had to do with my art teacher and my sophomore or junior year who asked me to use a certain technique with pastels in a painting, and I demonstrated with demos that I was able to do it, and I did it, and then I did it in parts of that painting. But I really wanted to kind of follow my own voice and my own heart and some things that I’ve been playing with pastel since I was eight years old, and I didn’t see the way she was trying to get me to paint as being really the way that I see and experience the world. And there are some areas that, when we look at stuff that you know, there’s high detail and sharp edges and texture, and the other areas that are kind of blurry, and I was trying to paint that way, and some areas I was smudging, and other areas I was leaving sharp. And she just wanted the whole thing to be kind of, you know, sketchy with the pastels, without ever being able to blur any areas I’m like. So I did some spots that way, and then I left other areas softer, and I intentionally smudged other areas and softened edges. And she gave me a D on the painting, and it was the only time I had not gotten an A on a painting. And she says, I did this to teach you a lesson. And she goes, You didn’t listen to the instructions. And but then when we had the end of the year art show, she had it hung front and center in the entryway to the entire school as the showpiece. So I got really kind of confused with that. And but then it really kind. Sunk in that, yes, you do have to listen to your instructors, but it also kind of backfired. It made me even more entrenched in how important it is to follow my own voice, and it just it didn’t feel right to do somebody else tell me do with my artwork, because my artwork is an expression of me and how I feel and how I interpret the world, and so still super valuable experience, and so kind of an important, you know, moment there, but that, I think, is probably part of the reason why I was a little unsure for a little bit. But then when I went to go look at college, and I went to the dean of the art department of the school that I was looking at going to, and they looked at my work and said, We think your work is wonderful, but it’s very representational. And that’s not the direction the art world is moving. They said, any university you go to, it’s going to be about abstract expressionism, being expressive with acrylics and just throwing color on canvas. And if you want to learn to paint with oils, and you want to learn to and you want to learn to draw properly and paint with an old master style, a classical style, that’s just it. You can come here, but you’re not going to probably be happy. And so I was really kind of put off by that, and just decided it was time to study the other thing that I loved, which was nature and figure out how to get to Yosemite, somehow, my favorite place in the world. And so I went to get a degree in biology. And then as I was taking courses in biology, and we had to take additional science courses and other disciplines like geology and chemistry and physics and things like that. And I realized along the way how interrelated all sciences are, and just how inspiring it was and how exciting it was to just learn more about what I wanted to paint. And so I added minors in chemistry and geology, and still taking every art class that I could, you know, from art history to darkroom photography to biological illustration when I was in grad school, and so just lots of stuff along the way. But my real inspiration for art was going to museums and looking at the works that really moved me. Like, I can’t remember, I can’t remember what year it was, but the first time I ever walked into a room full of Rembrandts and I just, you know, art skipped a few beats. They were alive. They were breathing. They were just so real. And then they the American Masters who painted the places that I love, like Thomas Hill, Thomas Moran, Albert Bierstadt, and other artists in similar styles in the 19th century. And of course, the ones that we all look at today, like Sargent and Zorn and Zorya and those guys, but, you know, I was looking a lot at the artists who painted the landscapes that I loved, especially, and so that was all kind of inner mixed together, but not really knowing what I wanted to do with it, other than somehow figure out a way to keep painting, figure out a way to get to Yosemite and be in the place that I loved. And at the end of my four years in undergrad, I was on a geology field trip, and we were in Yosemite at the entire course is actually on the geology of Yosemite National Park. And for the end of the course, we went to Yosemite for a week long field trip. And while I was there, I learned about this internship program with the National Park Service and the Yosemite Conservancy. And I just like, This is it. I have to be this. I got to apply to this. So throughout my time in school, I tailored every project in every class to something to do with Yosemite. So in a Native American narratives course, I tailored it to the awanichi in Yosemite. In organic chemistry, I wrote my year long term paper on the reactions of ozone, air pollution, with terpenes and chlorophyll in in pine trees in the park. In entomology, I studied bark beetle so like of course, I studied geology and of our national parks and all my geology courses. So everything was just really tailored. And I had all these papers written and things, and so I submitted this volume of stuff and photos of my photography and my paintings, and I applied for a wilderness position to just be on patrol on the trails and making sure people were safe and camping properly with permits. And they asked me, because of my background, if I could work in interpretation and be able to do programs for the public. And when they said, working in Tuolumne Meadows with campfires with 300 people, like my heart really skipped debate. Like, I don’t want to do public speaking, you know, but I mind. I don’t mind communicating with people through my work. I love doing that, but actually performing in front of a crowd, that’s really scary. And so they said, Well, you can give it a shot, and if it doesn’t work, you can move to wilderness. But we’d really like you to give it a try, you know. And they let me do it in a less intense environment, in Yosemite Valley. And. First, I was not very good, and I heard these incredibly brilliant speakers, longtime park rangers had been there for decades, who were just some of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met. And they could take any tangible object that we see in nature and then just layer all these levels of intangible concepts that just pull at the heartstrings and make people really think and make connections. And that was scary at first, because, like, oh my god, I can share some knowledge, but like, I don’t know how to do this, you know. And over time, I did, and I kept working at it, and I eventually I realized I had the potential to connect people with nature and inspire people that would have lasting impacts outside of their visit to a national park. And so then I went to grad school for a Master’s of Science in environmental education, and all along the way, kept painting. And today, after 25 summers as an interpretive ranger, and the rest of the year and On days off and before and after work, I was always painting. And so it’s, it’s really been predominantly an artist, but it’s, it’s all, like I said at the beginning, a vehicle for communication as an environmental educator. And so as to how that path kind of became realization that it would be making a living as an artist, I don’t really know. There’s any one time, I guess, when I was young, and I was more kind of confident in everything and my knowledge of stuff, I just walked into galleries like, Hey, do you want to sell my work? And I was very fortunate that I landed some shows in college at some major galleries, and things were successful from right, from the beginning. And so I never really questioned that, and never thought about it. And I’ve just been very, very fortunate that the right doors open up at the right times, and I met some really wonderful people that, you know, saw what I was trying to do with my work, and I’m really grateful for those opportunities. So it’s just been like part of who I’ve been my entire adult life. Really, I’ve not known any other path other than that. So there wasn’t any one pivotal moment to make a living as an artist, just sort of all happened. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:09

It feels very organic, like your love for nature, very organic. But yeah, you’ve mentioned a lot of stuff there that’s very fascinating, you know, like the having the proper support from teachers, and sometimes even, like the, I guess, like that stubborn sort of, well, I have my vision, and this teacher is trying to like, because I think many artists have definitely gone through that situation. I feel like it’s almost rite of passage where butt heads with an instructor at some point, because they just don’t seem to, I don’t know, see what you see, and it is hard to come to terms with that. And I think that also dissuades a lot of people from pursuing art as a career, and the challenges of wanting to be representational, also in a time, especially, you know, 2030, years ago, in a time where it was considered a dead thing. Like, why would you do that? Especially, gosh, I feel like from the 50s up until like 2000s is when contemporary schools were all modernist and almost anti representational, which is kind of sad, because it’s still, you know, no hate on contemporary art, but there’s room for everyone you know, like even contemporary art stems from observation of nature and comes from realism, comes from representational work. So it’s good that you push past that and you still kept going stubbornly.

James McGrew: 18:40

But I actually, I already is I thought I knew the most about art when I was younger, and the more I keep studying, the more I realize how much more there is to know. And it’s like you reach a certain level with your work, with a certain level of accomplishment and a certain level of understanding. And you kind of break through these barriers, and you keep going up and up, and all of a sudden you begin to see things in masterworks in museums that you couldn’t see before that. And as far as I know, those never end, you know, they just keep getting more and more and more. So you begin to realize just how much there is to really learn, and just how brilliant a lot of the masters were, both contemporary and, you know, for the last hundreds of years of throughout art history.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:24

Yeah, and like you said, it’s the gift that keeps on giving. Like, the more you know, the less you know. And it’s similar with science. You know, the more you learn, the more questions you have. And it just keeps going on and on and on. And actually, speaking of science, I wanted to ask you, do you find that your increase in like knowledge about biology, chemistry and all these different scientific components has that influenced your understanding of painting and how to create like an image that seems more realistic just based on that

James McGrew: 19:55

Absolutely, in fact, I would say that’s kind of the foundation, the most important thing. And. And you know, we think about this, look at davinci’s work, you look at Rembrandt’s work, you go back to these master figure painters and the studies they did with human anatomy, with dissections and things, and they really early on, that’s when you start to really see figure work that starts to look real. And every great figure painter today, of course, studies anatomy to some degree, and it’s really important to know the bone structure and the musculature and everything and how things work. And the reality is the same with your painting nature. So I mean human animals versus, you know, other wild animals, birds and things, you still have to know the anatomy. It’s also important to know the behavior. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been really fortunate to encounter incredible species that are very rare, endangered species in the wild, pretty frequently, and sometimes that’s just a product of being out painting plein air, very still, very quiet by yourself for two hours with all of your senses heightened, and animals just they lose their sense of fear, and they go about their business, and they’ll reveal themselves to you and like, go walking or flying right by in front of me while I’m working, but also just knowing what I’m intentionally looking for stuff and knowing when and where to find them, and then be able to tell the stories about those animals, how they fit in an ecological niche, or the background behind that thing and the story that’s being told through my work. And sometimes I’m adding a visual story in the painting. Other times it’s the captivating thing, and I’m adding an interpretive writing that goes with that pain, that elaborates and gives you some more information on the natural history or ecological status, on endangered species status or things like that. So that’s all super important. And and then, of course, the anatomy of nature is, you know, geology, and also physics. And the more we understand geology and why rocks break the way they do, why they layer and color the way that they do, that’s really important, and what to look for in the landscape. I mean, you know, you look at the Impressionists and just looking at a thing and finding a color and value and the relationships of those strokes next to everything around it is valuable, and you can just create a painting that way. But it helps a lot if you also are kind of looking for certain things. And you know why a rock should be more angular in certain situations, or softer and more rounded than others. Why that there would be certain colors on the cliffs? Why, with physics of atmosphere and light through Rayleigh scatter, why things compress and value and become more blue as they recede, and why you have different light source versus, you know, warm and cool and light source versus reflected light and a shadow, and there are no fit rules. And like I was at on faculty plein air convention last year, and and one of the other faculty members came up and used my painting as a demo for somebody he was trying to talk to. And and the guy said, okay, so somebody else told me that the shadows should be warmer than the light source, and it’s always that way. And like, well, there’s a lot of situations where that’s the case, but it’s not always true. And at this time of day, it was sunset. So I said, you know this, the atmosphere has filtered out all the short wavelengths of the spectrum. We only have the long wavelengths coming through, so the light source is very warm, but the shadows right now reflecting blue light from the sky, so it’s completely reversed of what you think. And if you’re not making observations in nature and also understanding what’s happening with that physics, you know it might be a lot more complicated to try and figure things out. And then the other side of all of that doesn’t matter what genre of work you’re doing or what your subject matter is, is knowing human visual processing system, how we perceive things, how we process how it triggers certain emotions, how we can play off of our processing system, like the way the Impressionists did, using like, for example, equal value, complementary colors and juxtapose near each other. And you know, the rods and the cones and our retinas are wired to different parts of the brain, and so rods are looking at grayscale, and cones are looking at color and detail. And so if you put those equal value complements next to each other, the brain has a hard time figuring out what’s going on, and that’s what causes the vibrance and atmosphere you see in Impressionism. And I mean, even fasori wrote about it, with the Mona Lisa, with the the green earth that was used, and the verdaccio and the under painting, and then the Vermillion mixed with lead white into the the over painting, and you get that resonance and vibrance of two complementary colors there and and create like, as he said, it looked like the veins in her neck were pulsing. We can’t see that now, because the varnish has changed and the paints changed. But you know, we can rely on what was written about it and see that in more contemporary works that do the same thing. So whether they knew the science behind what was happening or not, certain artists figured these things out along the way. And we can study the art, or we can. Study the science or both. And I think it’s all really valuable and instrumental into helping know what to look for, and that speeds the process and helps us when we’re inevitably always getting stuck, you know, in a painting, trying to figure things out why something’s not working.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:18

Yeah, yeah. And that’s it’s so fascinating, because now it’s, I’m even more intimidated by landscape just the idea of, like, Huh? I wonder if this is limestone over there, and what kind of reflective nature limestone has, and maybe granite doesn’t have, and all of these things that could definitely, I would say it could improve the understanding of a painting, which is great. And I think it’s also up to the person, if they want to go that far to like, really understand what they’re looking at, which is exactly what Leonardo did right with his illegal anatomy shenanigans, which really helped him understand the insertion points of muscles and why, you know, certain things are shaped the way they are, or even, like the very famous Michelangelo sculpture where the pinky is slightly lifted, so this one muscle is exposed that isn’t normally exposed unless your pinky is lifted. So, yeah, I think there is a beautiful combination of, like, knowledge and observation that I think a lot of successful paintings and sculptures and other art forms tend to have. So I think, if anything, it might, it might spark intimidation, but curiosity as well as like, Oh, okay. Like, how would that work? Or, like, how does why does this look funny? Maybe there is a scientific observational reason why it’s not working in my painting. So that’s really interesting. And actually, speaking of I

James McGrew: 26:46

do that when I teach a workshop, I always mix that the stuff that you standard teach in a workshop, design, composition, draftsmanship, values, color theory and, of course, edges, you know. But I also teach all the natural history sides of things, and the visual processing system and the art history and all that stuff and how it interweaves together to help people be able to see better and work more efficiently and effectively and and know what to look for and when and how and anticipate. So much about plein air painting is not capturing something in the moment, it’s knowing what’s going to happen. Like, you know, sunset lasts for five minutes, and you can’t paint a good sized painting in that amount of time, usually. But you know, you have to kind of know where things are likely to go.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:35

Yeah, yeah. And that’s the part about science that’s so useful. It’s the repetition, right? The the replication of experiments. It’s the knowing what’s going to happen. Like you said, just based on, oh, well, these are the conditions that are happening. I’m just going to lay out, for example, like lay out all of the structure of my painting. And that way, once I know that sunset hits where I want it, where I know it’s going to be, I know exactly where I’m going to start popping those colors on, where I need to, to make a convincing, you know, image. And I think that’s, that’s, I like to say that plein air is like running a crazy marathon, which actually leads me to my next question, because I know you do plein air, of course, and you do studio work. What is your process like? You know, from searching for your subject matter up to finished piece.

James McGrew: 28:27

That’s a great question. It’s a big question. The most important thing, like we’ve been talking about, is just observing nature and spending time in nature and letting that sort of reveal itself. You know, what really moves me? What inspires me. Sometimes I’m actually looking for something on purpose, like looking for peregrine falcons or looking for spotted owls or great gray owls or bears or something that I’m intending to paint for a reason. And we’ll put myself into that habitat on purpose, set up a landscape painting and be working, and invariably, I’ll have a long lens on a camera set to high speed and have another panel set and ready to go quickly. And then if that animal shows up, I’ll usually do a quick study of them, even if it’s only a matter of strokes, or I might incorporate them into the painting that I’m already working on. And then, of course, grab some quick reference photos. And most important, just really absorb that moment and suck it as much as I can in through my senses, and pay attention to everything I’m observing and feeling at the time. And I think a lot of it is intentional, but a lot of it is also beyond our kind of intended control, like just so many of the things that we’re feeling when we’re out in nature, ultimately do come in through all of our senses, whether it be visual or auditory or olfactory or touch and and then just even the way we’re feeling at the moment and aware of what’s going on and like, there’s times I’ve been on a vertical wall on a cliff in Yosemite rock climbing to get an image or something, you know, and one of the paintings is in my next upcoming show. Actually. Is peregrine falcons hunting bats at sunset, and I was really reliant on a park biologist and a couple of outstanding world class rock climbers to get me into that place, to be able to get there, to experience that, do a study on site and get the photo references. But also it was so intense my senses were heightened, and like, I could paint it without their references, because it’s just so indelibly ingrained, because because of the experience, because the emotion of where I was, you know, 300 feet off the ground at the time, so that that all kind of comes into play. And whether we’re consciously thinking about it or not, it’s channeled through the brush when you’re there on site. And so when I’m out in nature painting, it’s sometimes kind of planned. Other times it’s just whatever happens and what inspires me, and I don’t know what I’m going to look for for the day. I mean, I rely on my background to know when the light’s going where, like in Yosemite Valley, for example, I know certain times of the year when the light hits certain waterfalls, when to anticipate certain things, when it hits certain sequoia groves, when it hits certain cliffs. And the same is true in other landscapes that I paint a lot, like Zion and Grand Canyon and and things like that. But then there’s stuff that you just you can’t predict, and when certain wildlife is going to arrive, when weather changes unexpectedly, when something hits, that just really makes you excited and inspired. Like, oh, I have to paint that right now. I was not what I was thinking, but get my gear out go, you know, and gotta record it. And I almost never paint a studio piece without a plein air reference, at least one, and I have to have experienced it on in person. So I often hesitate to take on commissions if somebody doesn’t have, you know, something that they’ve already seen me paint, and I already have planner references and photographs of my own, my own memories, and so that’s a really important part of the process. But then, of the images that I’ve gathered in the studio to plan our studies and and things, there are certain ones over time I’ll kind of sometimes know right away, oh, that’s gonna be my big show piece for my next show. Other times, I just look at stuff and kind of figure out, all right, which ones am I going to orchestrate into certain pieces and figure out which ones I need to tell the story to round out the body of work and to put together for a thematic body for a show like every one of my big solo shows have a thematic body behind them, an artist statement that’s describing how all those paintings fit into an umbrella. And so I usually am planning those out at least a year ahead of time. And so those, those are kind of going into what I’m designing for the studio pieces. And then, like I have right here behind me, I have a big piece of Yosemite that’s going to be one of the pieces in my show. I’m making some last adjustments to it now and then the plein air reference here that I painted on site one morning, got up at dawn, went out to this viewpoints, a steep scramble up on some granite cliffs, to that spot, and set up. And I painted, I don’t know how many times from that area, all different times a day, all different times of the year. And this one that I really didn’t want to put up for sale. So many of my plein air paintings I never put out for sale because they’re just too valuable as a reference for a studio piece. And this one I’d been wanting to do, and I just knew it would fit with the theme of the show. And so use that to orchestrate in conjunction with my memory and my photos and come up with the big studio pieces,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:29

amazing, wow,

James McGrew: 33:30

and try and channel the same emotions that I had while I was in the field. And sometimes I have to just really kind of visualize and think and try and go back in my mind to try and get back into that place. Sometimes I rely on certain music to get me there and fit the same kind of a mood.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:49

Yes, yeah. I think that’s one of those underrated parts of being a painter, which is memory. I think a lot of a lot of the most important part of the process is part memory and part, of course, like immediate reaction to what you’re seeing and immediate capturing, right? But I think you know, having the memory is so so so valuable. I mean, that means you can, you know that means you can close your eyes and you have learned something so well that you can visually recreate it without necessarily having to see it because you’ve observed it so much. And I think that’s one of those skills that I think is, you know, necessary to develop that observation memory. Like, if I could close my eyes and repaint the painting that I’m making on a separate scrap of paper, I probably could type of skill set. I did. I have a funny little question, which is, do you think you could paint a scene from one of your favorite areas without any references, just from memory? I.

James McGrew: 35:00

Definitely I have, and I do, yes, when I was a kid, I loved fishing. I love trout, and from when I was eight years old, I started using pastels to draw very species of trout. By the time I was a teenager, I could paint any species of trout that lived in the Sierra, just from memory, the different color patterns. And, you know, Rainbow, golden, cutthroats, browns, brook trout, which are actually char, but they all have very different color patterns and thin Ray patterns and shapes and everything. And those were the things that I was, you know, for a little while there, that I love to paint a lot and but the other landscape too, you know certain key things in Yosemite. Yosemite is in the Grand Canyon in Zion, Yellowstone. So many of our big, iconic Western national parks are almost more like painting portraits than landscapes in some respects, because, like, if you know you’re reading Edgar Payne’s book or John Carlson’s guide, landscape painting, like just so many of these books about you know how to modify the landscape and and be able to orchestrate a landscape that kind of works, that only works when you can really fudge things a lot with Yosemite, the features are so iconic and so well Known, like the abanici and Yosemite refer to Half Dome as tissiak. And there’s an Indian legend behind that, and everything. And like, there are, like, there’s, there are profiles of a human face, couple of them in the Face of Half Dome, and with the lichen streaks and oxidation patterns on the streak on the face. And if you don’t get that right, you look at the geology right, like people recognize it right away. And it’s like messing up the features of somebody’s face, or, if you’re doing a figure study, and getting their one arm kind of wonky or something, you know, or the hands, is always, of course, you know, really hard to paint, too. So that’s just something that is really important when painting really well known landscapes, and you you have to kind of rely on that knowledge of it being more like a portrait painting than just a straight landscape. But that’s not to say you can’t fudge things, because we do perceive things differently. And my biggest struggle with our big national parks, and so many artists have said the same to me, is, how do you capture the sense of scale? You know, if we’re looking almost 5000 feet up at the Face of Half Dome, or two and a half 1000 feet at Yosemite Falls, we’re looking 12 miles across the Grand Canyon. And how do you gather and convey the sense of scale with the emotional impact, without just resorting to pure abstract you know, works or or like Bierstadt did and completely move mountains around, or Moran did the same thing and do lots of degree Thomas Hill and by the way, all those guys also study with scientists. And at the time frame the science expeditions, the Hayden expedition, things like that. Scientists were working side by side with photographers and painters, and they were all sharing the knowledge interchangeably between each other, so there really wasn’t the kind of difference that we see today of different fields, but I think that’s all really kind of instrumental in coming up with the landscape piece of one of our national parks, which for me, the reason I paint them partially is because they’re so beautiful and just so inspirational. And when I was a kid, and when I was younger, like that was just my inspiration, I just was excited and moved inside to do it. But then something changed when my first daughter was born. She’s now 29 and in fact, her and her husband are due in July, some of your grandfather, but so that’s even adds more to it. But I remember there was this day I was near Glacier Point in Yosemite, and when I was in my late teens or so, you feel kind of invincible, especially if like you’re an athlete or something, and you’re you’re out in these places, and you’re not really thinking about the potential danger times. And there was one day where there was just this light bulb that I remember really clearly, and I was at this ledge of a cliff, and I was trying to get a better perspective for a photograph, and I stopped, and I was the first time I ever really remember feeling that and thinking, Oh, I have another reason to be careful now. And it was my daughter, you know, had been born, and that also changed the trajectory of the purpose of my work. And it wasn’t any longer just because it was something that inspired me and I just wanted to share it with other people for kind of selfish reasons, because I liked it, it was really more because I was trying to help inspire people to conserve nature for future generations, and the need to help protect the environment and all of our national our big Western national parks that kind of laid the foundation for the national park system that is not just now nationwide, but spread around the world. Started with Yosemite. In 1855 with the first tourist party, where Thomas Ayers did a series of drawings of Yosemite Valley that then were reproduced, and then that were photographers. And then one of the most famous artists in the country that time, Albert Bierstadt, came and painted. And then he was in his studio, he had a couple pieces of Yosemite, and that was when senators and congressmen and he, it’s also said that may have been Abraham Lincoln, may have been influenced. So the signing the Yosemite grant in 1864 was highly linked to that. And then our early parts like that became national parks like Yosemite in 1890 surrounding the Yosemite grand and then Yellowstone in 1872 and same with the Grand Canyon And mukuntu weep, which is actually Zion today, and so many other parks owe their existence to the works of artists spreading awareness to The public and to Congress and presidents that ultimately inspired legislative support that set aside those places. And today we can look at them as the places that most really get people inspired. I was reading The FASO Way, one of the things that Clint sends out, he sends out these wonderful writings that really are make you think. And today’s writing was from another writer, Laura, I have to look up the name again, but it was a really intriguing thought process of creativity and how humans have creativity that cannot be replicated with AI. And even more interesting than that was that humans ultimately unlearn creativity. The propensity and opportunity of creativity is much greater in young humans than it is as people age and we think we know things in the environment, we lose a sense of wonder and curiosity and just thinking about what if and why and how that we think of more when we’re younger. And I think national parks, because they’re so otherworldly, so beautiful, they’re places where we can experience wildlife that is dangerous, often deadly, that it gets our heart beating fast, makes us really take note and be like, Wow. And these giant cliffs and geysers and waterfalls and 3000 year old giant sequoia trees that think about the human history that’s occurred in one lifetime of one tree, and all these things that are just so inspiring to people, even the most jaded people who think they know what a tree is, or they know what the landscape is, they know what beauty is, and they Go to National Park, and they still just can’t help but hold back, you know, tears sometimes, or just keep their mouth closed as they know,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:50

yeah, yeah. That’s the beauty of, you know, going to the source, right? Going to nature. And also just hearing about how your, you know, your view of your subject matter has evolved over time, you know, from enthusiast down to really just wanting to Cheryl that there’s so many beautiful things that need to be protected and taken care of. And I’ve also, when I took my environmental science class in high school, they kept repeating the phrase like, We are the stewards of the earth. Because, you know, we’re, we have like the we’re like the top of the food chain at this point, and it is our duty and responsibility to maintain harmony within that food chain, because we have the wherewithal to do it. I mean, animals are just going to continue doing what they’re going to do, and humans are. We’ve been interrupting that for so long that it’s good to be conscious of our own consequences, of our own actions, and to protect and maintain the beautiful earth that is honestly like a miracle in so many senses. So I think it’s very inspiring to hear you know how your relationship to this, this very long term relationship with your subject matter, has evolved in a beautiful way. You know, thinking about future generations like that.

James McGrew: 44:10

There’s an old proverb, and it’s, I’ve seen it attributed to various different cultures, but it’s, it’s basically the same thing, and that is, take care of the earth. It wasn’t given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. And that’s really true.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:27

That hits hard, because it’s true. I mean, I constantly were like, Oh my gosh, what? What’s coming next, but I feel like that’s anyone who studies the environment. I think losing constant dread and anxiety about it one of the reasons I loved my environmental science class, but it was also like, you know what? I think I like not knowing sometimes, because

James McGrew: 44:50

it’s so true, I have that thought quite often, like, once you know, like when you’re just blindly seeing pretty things in nature, like, great. But then once you want. Understand the ecological complexity and the influence of, let’s say, endangered species. For example, you know, you think, Oh, that’s a pretty tree, or that’s a pretty animal or fish or whatever, and then you realize it’s completely destroying the ecosystem, because people brought it there. And you know, it’s like, once you know these things, you can’t unsee them, and then know them. And it does totally change your perspective of looking at the world. And there is definitely both a positive and a downside to that, actually, but it keeps me constantly driven to work harder and harder at not just painting better and better like that’s an endless, you know, trajectory, endless work, but also endless learning about my subject and being able to tell that story in the background, and especially today, this is one of the most pivotal moments. The rate that we’re losing species, species diversity, and everything is happening so incredibly fast, and most people are completely unaware, because we just don’t see it in the news. There’s so much other stuff that’s monopolizing news time that unless you’re really actively looking for it, you’re probably not aware of how much things are really happening and just how fast. So I try to keep up on that stuff and also incorporate that into my work. And like I said, I’m emotionally driven with it, in addition to the just the background,

Laura Arango Baier: 46:18

yeah, yeah, it’s the the so called 11th Hour. Oh, I remember that. That’s also very but you know, sometimes there is good news, environmental good news, which, you know, we always celebrate that, but in your time, oh yes, there’s actually a good amount of good news. It’s just, you know, it’s good to not be totally riddled with bad news. So I tend to follow you know, both the very serious news and then also the fortunately, much happier news about breakthroughs in science that are helping the environment, like the breakthroughs about, oh, we’ve come up with a way to undo microplastics, which I’m excited about, because I think that’s one of the biggest risks for the future of humanity, and it’s always been a risk for the environment and for animals. And yeah, anyway,

James McGrew: 47:11

I do incorporate, you know, my upcoming next show, for example, I do have a few paintings that I have actually coming out, so like the California Art Club Gold Medal exhibit, I have a painting of a of a juvenile, recently fledged California spotted owl. It’s just this downy little fuzz ball with these giant dark eyes. And you can’t help but like, have it melt your heart and just want to reach out and hug them. They’re just so adorably beautiful and cute, sweet and just heartwarming. And having spent a lot of time around them is just unbelievable. And they are in serious trouble. I paint a lot of California condors. I mean, they were down to like, 22 individuals left on the planet, and it’s been an incredibly intensive effort to just keep them live. And they’re still critically endangered. But you know that is, that is a really big issue that we are dealing with. But on the flip side of that, I try to remember that there’s a lot of stuff that’s really hopeful another species, the peregrine falcon, which has inspired me since I was a teen, and at that time, they were really critically endangered. Couldn’t see them in the wild. I mean, I remember reading Galen Raul’s write ups in National Geographic and his photography, as a photographer. He was a nature photographer and rock climber, and the story about how they were critically endangered because of DDT thinning their eggshells, and they were all dying, and they were crashing catastrophically globally. And this is the top predator of the skies, the fastest creature on earth. They fly at 240 miles an hour, and you know, they they’re not afraid of anything, and they’re just the most phenomenally incredible creatures to watch when they’re so not just fast, but agile, and they’re also incredibly intelligent. They’re related to parrots, not other raptors, and they have an incredibly high level of intelligence and creativity, problem solving, they use tools. They make toys. They work together as teams, male and female, mate for life, and they do all kinds of things together. And so the more time we spend in nature, the more we really see stuff that we may not otherwise notice. And it’s been spending hundreds of hours out where peregrine falcons live on the cliffs of my favorite national parks, and getting to observe them so much that I’ve observed those behaviors and watched juveniles learning to teach themselves to make toys and hunt and just things that you don’t really see written about otherwise. And that’s all come from just a lot of time in nature and observing nature. And in the 1970s there were no peregrine falcons in Yosemite they’d gone completely extinct locally and through intensive efforts of the Peregrine fund, funding things, the National Park Service and biologists, rock climbers and all these people working together, age. Educators, scientists, and of course, the Endangered Species Act was created in early 1970s DDT was banned and other organochloride pesticides. And so through all this cooperative work and understanding and research and funding, peregrine falcons were brought back from the brink and delisted in the late 1990s and now there are, like, 15 nesting pairs on average every year in Yosemite. And I’ve watched the same pairs returning to the same nest sites year after year, and watched them changing their hunting behaviors and their teaching behaviors with their children according to their Young’s different personalities and how many young they have. And it’s just, you know, this wonderful ray of hope to see what we can do when we put our minds to it, the works of artists and scientists and educators and and everybody. It’s never hopeless. You know, we see some stuff that, at times, can definitely make us feel kind of down, but it’s important to remember the potential that we have that’s so wonderful and that it can keep us going and keep us pursuing, helping to protect these things and inspire.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:11

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James McGrew: 54:36

It was actually the reverse my income as an artist, and was making the summer side income as a ranger, but I not at the very beginning, though, like the very first few years. Of course it was, it was always a struggle, and I did work much longer seasons with the Park Service. My first couple seasons, actually, I was still in grad school, so. So after my summer internship in Yosemite, I went to grad school, and then I had a couple of winters where I worked at Crater Lake National Park in Southern Oregon. I was at Southern Oregon University, and so on weekdays, I was at school, and then on weekends, I drive to the park and do snowshoe walks interpretive programs up at the park. And then once I graduated, went back down to Yosemite. And so it was initially, yes, there were longer seasons and and more reliant on that, but it wasn’t very long before I was, I was really doing a lot more of the painting and relying on that as a bigger source of income. But they still, they both still go hand in hand. And there are some ways we can reach people through visual arts beyond the scope of the immediate vicinity, the landscape. And there are ways that we can connect people in nature, right there in the moment. I mean, there’s no substitute for watching a bird dropping out of the sky at 200 miles an hour. Or watch a bear, you know, hunt something right in front of you. Or watch a mountain lion jump 15 feet in a single leap up a cliffside in complete silence and just disappear. Or have a great, great owl fly out of a tree and go right by you like a ghost without the slightest sound whatsoever. And they’re gigantic owls. You know, there’s just, there is no substitute for these kinds of experiences. And being able to share those with people on site and inspire them and teach them is really great, too. So I’ve always really liked the balance, regardless of what the income level is and it’s, it’s really the payment for me has always been seeing people smiling, seeing their eyes open wide and and seeing them connecting through every way that I can, I can manage to try and share what I can with people,

Laura Arango Baier: 56:51

yeah, yeah. And I’ve heard so many artists say the same, where they feel like Lucky, almost like, wow, I make money off of this thing that I really love, and I’m just doing it because it fulfills me and it makes me wake up happy every morning. And sure, we struggle with some paintings here and there, because no painting is ever in the park. They’re always a struggle in the park, but not always. But to a greater extent, though, it gives you a really good reason to get up in the morning and enjoy just being alive and the celebration of how every moment is a new moment. You know, the eternal Now, as they say, I think is, is one of those things that you know, unfortunately, we do need money to live unfortunately, but it is wonderful to have that as, like, almost like, the secondary reason, or even tertiary reason for painting and for, you know, being out in nature, which is extremely amazing. If I wanted

James McGrew: 58:01

to get rich, I wouldn’t try to be an artist or a park ranger or a teacher or an educator. You know, that’s never been the purpose for any of it, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:09

Yeah. It just feels like the lucky bonus that you get for doing what you love every day, which is extremely inspiring as well. Though. I think, you know, it’s, I feel like a lot of artists we have like this calling for it, right? It’s not like you said, like, if I wanted to be rich, this isn’t what I would do, but I do it because it is compulsory. It is what my my insides are screaming for. It’s I have no other thing that could ever fulfill me this deeply. And of course, money could never have that so but we still need it.

James McGrew: 58:44

It’s true. And even as an artist, though, it’s very easy to get derailed and sidetracked, and you do have to make a living. And I’ve, I’ve put two daughters through college, and they’re both adults now. And you know, it’s has not been an easy road, that’s for sure, and there’s a lot of pressure to, you know, make a living, not just for yourself, but supporting a family, and especially like in that case, when you’re raising kids, all completely dependent upon your income. And so it’s easy to get lost in terms of the focus. And you can be focused more on the income and the business side of stuff, and winning awards, or getting into a gallery, or getting recognition from your peers or from judges and or magazine articles. And you know, I’ve been very fortunate to achieve all of those things, but the times that I was really seeking them, I think the most because it just felt like I had to because I needed to support the family, and I was more focused on it for financial purposes than, you know, inside, some of the most important realizations in my career came when I kind of just forgot all about that and just said, That’s not what’s really important. And I remember in one of the Maui planner painting invitationals in 2020 and I’ve done most of the major invitationals on the western US for many years, and had a great time painting with wonderful artists and friends, and inspired to learn from them, and met so many wonderful collectors and so many wonderful people at the shows and the judges and and things. And I remember John Stern, who was the judge for Laguna Invitational for many, many years, and the Maui Invitational for many years, well respected writer, art critic and curator and everything and and it seemed to me, I was for a while, I was always trying to figure out what a judge had in mind when they were trying to figure out who to give an award to, or what painting to give an award to. And I’ve at times asked judges, okay, so what made you give my painting an award, or this one or over that one? And you know, sometimes our judges just say, I pick what I like, and that’s all they’re willing to say. Other times they’re they’re going to define it based on, you know, the objective criteria of design, composition, edge work, other than more intangible stuff, like the emotional connection that they had and and so I was always trying to figure these things out. And and I would see like, for example, what John was looking at for Best of Show paintings. And I realized so many of his awards had architectural things, just contemporary buildings and things in them. And like, well, that’s not really what I want to paint. I do paint really landmark architecture, really interesting Native American things and early national parks history and some of the grand lodges and things like that. But for the most part, I’m painting nature without human influence as much as I can, as pristine as possible. And so I thought, you know, it’s just it’s not going to work. He’s never going to give me an award. And so in 2021 I went to Maui. Told my family before I left, I’m not expecting awards. I’m not looking for awards. I’m not looking for sales. And I don’t care what happens. I I just really, really need to paint from my heart and paint what’s really important to me. And because of what’s going on in the Hawaiian Islands, the rate of extinction is incredibly high because of island biogeography and all the introduced species and how fast things are disappearing. So I made it a goal to find and paint and incorporate endangered species into every painting that I did during that week, and I largely stayed away from people doing things on my own. I mean, of course I tended to paint out some things, but I managed to get a permit to go up to the summit of Haleakala and drive up there in the evening, did a painting at sunset, drove down and camped at night, howling wind and driving horizontal rain all night long. Woke up in the morning. It was still crazy weather. Drove up to the summit, 3000 feet up, and you got to the summit, we were way above the storm clouds. It was crystal clear, no wind, totally calm. You could see a blanket of storm all around the island below. I started hiking at dawn. Hiked a few miles down into the crater, walking on one inch tall frost crystals on the trail. It was just the biggest crystals I’d ever seen. And as I got down into the crater, there was nobody around, no sound. Is the only time in my life I’ve been on this planet and heard nothing, no airplanes overhead, no birds, no wind, no insects, no voices, no cars. It was the most magically peaceful, incredibly beautiful experience as I watched the sun come up stream over the fog into the valley, into the crater there caldera and and then I intentionally put some endangered plants in the foreground. The Haleakala Silver Sword lives and is endemic only to the summit of Haleakala and nowhere else in the world, and they are critically endangered because of the risk of climate change pushing their habitat up higher and higher, and they’re basically going to run out of habitat pretty soon, but also grazing and the harvest and habitat damage and things and so it was really important. So throughout the rest of the event, I painted green sea turtles, Hanu and the scarlet honey creeper, Ev and Nene, the Hawaiian goose, and just, you know, all these endangered species, I was really fortunate to be able to find I did, like, months of research leading up to that, to figure out where they were. And I couldn’t take credit for it either. I mean, people helped me out a lot to be able to get to places and know where things were. And I submitted the pieces to the show without expecting anything to come of it, except I just wanted to tell the story. And my daughter flew out, my younger daughter, Janelle, and. And she forgot her her clothes for the gala that night, so we had to go shopping in Lahaina, and we’re going from store to store and trying to find stuff for us. We’re late coming in. And some friends, when I got there, said, Congratulations. And I said, what? You know, I didn’t expect anything. And I said, Did I win something? And she said, you kind of want everything, but I had, I had actually won the Best of Show from John stern and the for that painting up in Haleakala, also the honor Hawaii, honor Maui award, collective Choice Award, and some other awards. And I just that was really important for me, because I realized at the moment that we and, and it wasn’t like I just came at this on my own, like I had people in my life that were really important in my life, my partner telling me, like she was saying, like, you gotta, you gotta, just forget about what you’re chasing. You know, forget about the sales, forget about the awards, just just paint and and it’s absolutely true, and I that’s exactly what I did for that show, but I had to come up with it on my own terms and get to that point all on my own eventually, even though I knew what to do and people were telling me, but once I actually hit to that point and just didn’t care what happened anymore, what I received, what sold, and I just painted from my heart what was really important through my work, and, you know, getting those, those rewards were, I guess, just sort of a recognition that that was the right direction,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:30

beautiful, yes, yeah. I think that’s definitely something that I relate to. And I think many of our listeners will definitely relate to that feeling of, oh, if I, you know, get into this show, or, like, if I try to win this one award, then I’ll feel like I’ve really made it as an artist, and I can, you know, put it on my website and my CV, and feel like I’ve accomplished something. But oftentimes, I’ve met a lot of people who feel like a sense of emptiness afterward, where it’s like, maybe they’ve won the award, but then the high kind of gets lost because, I mean, yeah, you won the award, people move on. I mean, everyone else is going to move on too and try to win their other awards over there. And you might as well do it with work that you actually love to do, and if you win, that’s, once again, the bonus, right? The secondary bonus. So I think it’s very inspiring and very on brand for you to suddenly stubbornly persist with your vision. I think of yourself, you know, at that teacher is like, yeah, no, this is my vision. I’m just gonna stubbornly pursue it, and it will reach the right people. And that’s what counts, you know, yeah, and actually speaking of reaching the right people when, like, how was it for you? Like, how did you find your first collectors? And then what did you learn about that process that has helped you? I guess today in your career,

James McGrew: 1:08:07

I was just putting my work out there. I mean, I I just tried to get get my work into galleries, and figured that was the avenue to do so. And I was fortunate that that did kind of work and enough people. I mean, of course, I got turned down from places and shows all the time, like everybody, and I shouldn’t say everybody. I know some people that you know have incredible opportunities all the time, but there were lots of things that didn’t work out. But the ones that did, I just kept focusing on those and moving forward and and I felt like, the funny thing is, early on in my career, I was in that place where I didn’t think about sales, I didn’t think about any kind of recognition or anything, and I was only focused on just painting from the heart, what I love to do, and the stories I wanted to tell. And then over time, because I had to make the living and I had to support a family, is when I got sidetracked, I think, and having to think about the other stuff. And, you know, a number of years ago, really made that full circle transition to the realization that the awards and everything are great and the sales are, you know, great, but the bottom line is, if you just speak from the heart and you’re authentic and do what you did this for in the first place, hopefully things will work. And if it’s inspiring you, it’s probably going to inspire somebody else. If you’re working hard enough at it, and you’re really putting enough out there, it’s probably going to connect with somebody somewhere. And I just try to, and I realize that, you know, most of my work probably won’t connect with people, and that’s okay, but the ones that do, I’m really grateful for every one of those opportunities and those connections. And you know, obviously when somebody buys a painting, that’s always such a wonderful recognition. And I have some collectors that, you know, just brand new, collectors that have bought one painting, sometimes through a gallery, sometimes directly, sometimes from a plein air event, and they, you know, meet me while painting on site, or they see me painting out in a national park. And I give him a card and and say, Well, you know, I’m in these galleries, and you can go see my work over here. And because you can’t ever sell a painting in a national park, so that’s illegal, only concessions can sell in a national park. So I’ve never sold a painting in a national park. I’ve always just, you know, say, you know, if I’m inside, like, well, there’s the Worthington gallery in Springdale or in Grand Canyon, like over at cold studio, if I’m in Yosemite is like at the Ansel Adams Gallery. And, you know, wherever I am, I just refer people to something, but I forgot where I was going with that. Collectors. Oh yes, collectors, how to connect with those connectors. So, you know, it’s just, I think being present, being out there, putting your work in galleries, but then also doing plein air events was a huge door to open up a lot of avenues to collectors. Other galleries, other show invitationals came about that way. And I have had so many other opportunities arise because of those. And plein air events can be incredibly exhausting. It’s a huge amount of work and intensive painting in a short amount of time and subject to the weather and conditions that occur at that time, many of them have quick draws, and so you’ve got two hours to paint a painting, and I would often do like a 12 by 24 it’s about as big as I could do on a two hour window, and that required a huge amount of focus ahead of time. I’d usually have to think it through, visualize it in my mind, usually after a week of painting in that location, whichever park it was in, and and then just give it everything I had for two hours, and I could practically fall over and pass out afterwards. I just, you know, so much energy goes into painting in those situations, but to have the crowds around connecting and talking with you and and seeing the landscape and everything, that’s a really valuable opportunity to help inspire people and get people not just to connect to the work, but also to realize the relationship that artists and art have had with the preservation and public awareness of our national parks and the environment as a whole. And so I really value that opportunity. I’m always grateful for those those chances and those meetings and in those collectors so a lot of my collector base kind of came about that way. Some of them from other big national shows, like the American impressionist society national exhibit and OPA and the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit and and things like that. And and then International, you know, online competitions, the art salon, and they actually just bought one of my pieces for their permanent collection for this year’s exhibit. And so I’m excited for that show. And so we just, you know, every time you just, I think, if you just paint and put your heart in to it and put enough work out there and let enough people see it, it’s bound to connect with somebody at some point. And that’s just kind of a chain reaction that keeps building. If you keep keep at it, and keep putting it out there and keep continually working at it,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:09

yes, yeah, there’s no instant gratification. There no

James McGrew: 1:13:13

it’s a long, long process. And like, I’m especially grateful for my long term collectors. And I have one couple in California that has over 30 paintings, and you walk into their house and it’s filled with some of the best artists who have paint California like their whole house is a museum floor to ceiling. Actually have a few collectors that have lots of you know, paintings in their walls like that, just jam, salon style everywhere. And then I have collectors that have, you know, one painting per wall and just an assortment of different types, and some that can only, you know, afford a small piece. And I really value every one of those and along the whole spectrum,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:57

yeah, yeah. I mean anyone who can appreciate a painting and hang it up on their wall and live with it every day, right? See this painting every day. I think it’s, it’s an honor. It is, yeah, yeah. And actually did want to ask you, because you did so much, really tough public speaking learning on the go, do you find that there are elements of your your time, you know, doing public speaking at the parks that you pull into your career as an artist that has helped you with speaking to people about your work, absolutely.

James McGrew: 1:14:32

And you know, on one hand, art should speak for itself, and you know, oftentimes it does, and a lot of artists are pretty shy and don’t like to go to show openings and things like that, or do a podcast like this, or teach a workshop, or get on stage at plein air convention and do a demo, or, you know, things, but I and I wouldn’t have had I not had that background in environmental education. Education and doing interpretation so much, I think it would, or at least I think it would have probably been a lot more difficult and but I mean, there’s it’s not just comfort and the ease of being able to talk to people. When it comes to doing an interpretive program, it’s a lot of years of learning the techniques to actually build it structurally and and really be able to maximize your ability to reach the widest audience, to really connect with those people, no matter where they are in the political spectrum or their cultural background, or where they’re coming from in the world their age, there’s just so many variables that come into play and and those things, maybe they come naturally to a lot of people, but at least for me, it took a lot of work and a lot of practice and a lot of learning from other masters at teaching and and constantly trying to learn those things. And I found them really important for especially teaching workshops, doing demos at events and and just talking to people at a show opening reception. Many, many people I’ve talked to have considered a painting, but when you’re talking about plunking down 1000s of dollars for a work of art, they want to know more than just what’s the signature on the painting, how pretty is the painting? What’s the status, what’s the you know, what’s the significance. They want a connection with the artist too, and they can read about it, they can listen to a podcast like this, but there’s no substitute for one on one, actual communications and seeing the artist process in the field, talking to the artists at a show, opening reception. And so many collectors have said that that was really important for them, and in many of my collectors, over time, have become very good friends, and I’m really grateful for those friendships, and obviously grateful for the sales, but I’m even much more grateful for the friendships that I’ve developed, and the fact that so many of them tell me that they just really love being able to See my work on the walls, and it takes them to whatever park it is that I have a painting of, and reminds them of their experiences there, or inspires them to go up again. And for me, that’s that’s the most valuable thing when they’re sharing those those meaningful feelings and moments and what the work does for them and how it inspires them to make changes, ultimately, beautiful.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:27

Yeah, yeah. I think there’s so much about, like you said, there’s so many young artists who are introverted, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think many of us are quite introverted,

James McGrew: 1:17:39

but having I’m totally introverted. Oh yeah, me too, which is fine to learn how to break through that, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:46

yeah, you have to. I mean, a lot of the career of being an artist, besides painting, which is honestly one of the hardest parts, but it is literally like the given right for the career, like you have to have good work. You also have to be personable. You have to know how to talk to other people. Have, you know, like, not be afraid to be vulnerable and connect with people and even face, you know, the tough criticisms that come with it, like, Oh, someone might literally come up to you and be like, Oh, your work is really bad. It’s like, Oh, thanks. You just you have to, like, be like, Oh, thank you. Why do you think that you know or, like, just, you know it’s gonna happen, and you have to learn to not take it personally. Like, there’s a lot of interpersonal relationships that happen as an artist, especially if that’s like, the career that someone is pursuing. Yeah, and actually, this segues perfectly into my next question, which is, what advice would you give to someone who wants to pursue being an artist as their career?

James McGrew: 1:18:50

Well, the kind of things we’ve kind of covered so far, so if I could just kind of summarize them, I mean, obviously, be authentic and true to yourself. That’s number one. And because if you’re trying to fake something, it’s just not going to work. You have to speak from experience, and you have to speak from the heart and paint what you know, you know. And that is really number one. Number two is just the mileage. There’s no substitute for time in nature. Time painting from life. Doesn’t matter what your subject is. You know, figure painters doing life drawings, life paintings in Figure sessions. I tell kids all the time, like, if you draw or paint with one hand and all you have is the other hand, we’ll draw that or your pet or your sibling or the view out your backyard window. And like, we can’t always be it’s expensive and it’s difficult to get to national parks, especially with, you know, the advent of social media and crowding that we have today and stuff. So we can’t always, like, go to these incredible places that are super inspirational. Like, we can find beauty every day all around us, and we can find subjects to draw and paint and. Right? And the purpose of working from life so valuable. And I always tell people don’t work from photographs until you’ve painted enough paintings and taking photos at the same time to be able to see where and how and why. The human visual processing system is different than a camera recording system. And then once you’ve done enough of that, you can really know how to manipulate and adjust photos and incorporate them, and there’s nothing wrong with using them. The greatest masters of the 19th century all use photography. No matter how well they could draw the human figure or the landscape, they still use photography, and it’s just a matter of being able to know when and how to make those corrections and adjustments. One other thing about the importance of painting in nature and spending time in nature is we talked about plan art painting. But there’s one thing to just go out and paint outside. That’s another thing to really be present when you’re out in nature. Slow down, focus on everything around you and just really be in touch with everything and open up all of your senses. Be really mindful and be aware of the way you feel, the way the sun is or the wind on your skin, the smells that you’re smelling, the fragrances the flowers that are blooming nearby, or the way that light changes and shifts, and the way that an animal moves, or the way a bird, you know, song is actually I’m hearing bird songs running right now, you know, singing, or all these different things that ultimately come into play, And there is no substitute for time in nature, painting and drawing direct from life, but also just observation, like Asher B Durand and like all these 19th century masters talk about the importance of just studying nature, and part of that is book studying. We talked about my school background, but way more important that is just the observation and really connecting and opening yourself up and being really present without being distracted with other stuff, or, you know, what’s going on in the internet, or your music you’re listening to, or whatever, we just really, really be present in that I have found to be invaluable with really slowing down and incorporating a lot more into my mind and experiencing more, seeing more along the way too. But then also, like we were talking about, the other side that’s really valuable is that interpersonal communication, being open, listening to everybody, incorporating other people’s perspectives and opinions and not taking things personally. You know, I mean, we’ve all done that. We’ve been there at times and taken criticism really painfully from a show rejection or a gallery rejection and or something not working out or appear, not recognizing your work or whatever. And like, I don’t really pay attention anymore on social media. And for a long time, a long time ago, it seemed like it did matter. But now I just use it when I I want to put something out there to try and connect people with the subject that I’m painting, you know, add the interpretive, environmental story behind my work, or help other artists with questions that they have about materials, techniques or or things like that. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s all about just helping others, listening to others, sharing, and trying to just tell the story that of what inspires my work. And then, of course, the the business side of just straight making sales. You know, you really I greatly value and respect and trust all of my galleries, and that’s a really important relationship. They trust me. We have good relationships. We know we’re not going to take each other’s sales or, you know, or undermine something. And you know, somebody sees a painting in a gallery, and you know, they see my work later, I will give the commission to the gallery, and the galleries know that, and I think that’s really important to build that trust. And I really genuinely, like all the people who are the directors and owners of my galleries, and it’s taken a long time working. I mean, it’s hard to even get into a gallery when you’re starting out and and it’s hard to find the galleries that you can trust and and I’ve had some less than favorable experiences of some galleries that were not trustworthy. And, you know, obviously I’m not in those galleries anymore, and but all the galleries that I’m in now, I really, really value those relationships, and so it’s important to find those connections that you trust. And then there’s the stuff that we can do, like we’re doing right now. FASO is an incredibly valuable tool, and it’s not just because you are interviewing me on behalf of FASO, but I do have to say that genuinely, the things that you guys do are invaluable to. Marketing into making sales from this podcast, listening to your interviews, listening to my friends and other artists that I’ve worked with. Some are, you know, just acquaintances. Some are really good friends that you interview, and it’s always fun to learn from them and gather more bits of information here and there, or just, you know, see, that’s so cool. You know, I watched their career develop, too, and but then also the marketing that you guys do on social media, your own marketing, the the collectors alerts. So when people sign up for my newsletter, which is the most important way to connect with my collectors, and you know my newsletters that I send out is the most important way that people get the majority of info for upcoming workshops, from upcoming shows, things that I’ve had happen and and then when people sign up for that, they also have the opportunity to sign up for new artwork alerts. And so every time I put a painting on my website, I get emails from people inquiring about a piece. And, you know, people buy paintings that way all the time, and most time they’re headed to galleries. So the galleries make the sales, and oftentimes before they even get there, and it’s because of the the artwork alerts that you guys put out there. So anyway, and every way that we can put our work out there is valuable and and I have to say it’s you guys are a really valuable tool in that, that that toolkit,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:26:31

yeah, well, we’re really happy to hear that. I also use all of the my websites, also FASO website, and objectively, you know, I know that I’m obviously, like their host for their podcast, but I also really benefit a lot from using a FASO website. And it’s just, it’s it’s intuitive, it’s easy to use, and they’re always improving it. The team is really great. It’s a small team. They’re always happy to help. And I think in the end, you know, that’s better than you know, going for a bigger company where, like, you’re talking to an AI Chatbot. No hate on AI chatbots, but I think talking to a real person is a million times better

James McGrew: 1:27:10

or trying to design something yourself. Like, you know, I’d much rather have a paintbrush in my hand and be out in nature than on a computer screen.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:27:16

So Exactly, yeah, even though now FASO does have both capabilities, because they have a Squarespace option, where that is a FASO site, but with, like, the capabilities of the Squarespace, like changing it however you want. But for the most part, I think it’s also, I’m totally with you. It’s like, but

James McGrew: 1:27:34

that’s a relatively new invention, like, when I first developed this website a long time ago, it was either learn code, hire a professional, or your guys’s templates, and that made things such an easy segue into being able to put my work out there without all the other stuff. You know, hiring a professional meant having to constantly interact with them as a third party, having the FASO website, you can do it on your own whenever you want, and that’s super, super valuable, without having to know how to do the coding most time.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:09

Yeah, exactly, yeah. They really got rid of the gatekeeping of like, oh, well, in order to be a professional, you need to have, like, certain money to hire a coder to do your website. Instead, it’s like, Oh, you just pay for a website, and you already have these templates, which super great again, for anyone who wants to save time and use that time in the studio, like many of us. But yeah, really happy that that you’ve enjoyed it. And actually, that’s my next question, which is, of course, on your website, I’m sure you have this information. But do you have a year would you like to tell us about your upcoming shows? Or do you have any upcoming workshops? Anything you got going on that you’d

James McGrew: 1:28:51

like to promote? Sure, thank you. So workshops, nothing really set right now, but I am discussing things and for a workshop in Yosemite. So if anybody’s interested, just have them send me a message to my website. I’ll be compiling a list, so I’ll make sure I get those people aware when we do start setting stuff up. But as far as upcoming shows, I have the California art Club’s gold medal exhibit this summer down in Southern California, the the art salon in New York at the summer as well, and then this fall, I have shows in Grand Canyon and Zion invitationals for those two incredible places. I always have an annual show at one of my galleries in Berkeley, Holton Studio Gallery. They have an annual all Artist gallery. They have an incredible group of artists, and they make these beautiful solid oak and walnut frames. So we just send them the paintings, and they make the frames. They design them for the work. And it’s incredible opportunity there. And then the most impressive thing I’m working on right now is for my solo show that opens at the Ansel Adams Gallery in Yosemite. And. And that actually opens on May the fourth, and it hangs for almost couple months. And so that’s like the painting behind me right now, and that’s what I’ve been working really long hours, like 12 to 15 hour days the last couple of weeks to get things together for that upcoming show. And then I always have to provide for my galleries, Del Monte fine art in Carmel and Holton in Berkeley, Worthington gallery in Springdale, right outside of Zion and and then, of course, the antelopes gallery in Yosemite. And so it’s kind of juggling all those things and planning things far enough out, but right now, it’s, it’s really intense for an upcoming solo show.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:30:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thank you for being here despite I know how busy you’ve been. Seems like it’s been really hectic for you, so I’m really grateful that you were able to spare some some of your precious time for us here on the podcast.

James McGrew: 1:31:02

Thank you. My pleasure being here, and I really appreciate the opportunity, and I’m honored. And you know, it’s great to have the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:11

Yeah, of course, it was wonderful. And actually, before you go, do you mind telling us what your website and social media are?

James McGrew: 1:31:17

Sure? So at James McGrew fine art for social and Facebook and Instagram. I’m working on others, but haven’t had the time to put those together yet on other platforms and then. But my main place to go that is updated by far the most frequently and is absolutely the most important way to connect, is my website, and it’s James McGrew, fine art, com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:43

awesome, perfect. And I will include all of your links in the show notes as well. For anyone who’s just listening, go check out his work. It is absolutely breathtaking. Don’t miss out. And then if you can go see his work in person, real life, go check it out. So thank you.

James McGrew: 1:31:57

That is actually pretty important. Paintings do look different on screen than they do in person. I do a lot of work to try and create optical illusions with the working properties of my paint that can’t be replicated other ways.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:32:12

Just size wise, it really compresses everything into a different feeling. I mean that like you can’t really capture grandeur in such a small screen, you know, like you have to go see it in person. You know, as much as you can, if anyone really can afford to go do that or is nearby to one of the places where your work is for sure, go check.

James McGrew: 1:32:34

And another great opportunity with the website is the ability to write an artist statement for each painting and like, especially for my upcoming show here with all the interpretive environmental messages behind each important piece in the show, I do write a lot on the website, and that gives me wonderful opportunity to let people read all that information and make those connections so awesome. Be sure to read the interpretive stuff with it too.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:02

Yes, for sure, awesome. Well, thank you so much again, James, and I’m really happy it didn’t rain on us today outdoors, as you should be,

James McGrew: 1:33:13

started working outside and even on studio pieces more than 10 years ago, just because it’s closer to the plein air experience and don’t have to worry about when I do use solvents in the early stages of a painting. I don’t ever use solvents indoors anymore.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:33:27

So very smart, man. Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Ellen Howard, a Boise-based landscape painter, instructor, art advocate, and writer who works primarily in oils and gouache, known for her tranquil depictions of nature, water, and luminous skies. In this conversation, Ellen shares how she transitioned from a demanding venture capital career into full-time art, guided by lifelong creative influences—especially her grandfather’s travel illustrations and drawings. She explains how an invitation to an oil painting class reignited her passion, leading to years of focused study, plein air practice, and a deep commitment to painting nature’s peaceful moments, from marshlands and seascapes to sunsets and Idaho’s mountains. Ellen also describes how surgery led her to experiment with gouache, a medium whose quick-drying vibrancy and spontaneity now balances and informs her slower, layered oil work. Drawing on her business background, she emphasizes time management, relationship-building, consistent marketing, particularly newsletter marketing, and “showing up and saying yes” as crucial to building opportunities and gallery representation. She encourages artists to develop a body of work they truly love, understand where it fits in the market, be patient with career growth, and actively create their own opportunities rather than waiting to be discovered. Finally, Ellen tells us about her upcoming gouache workshop in Sun Valley, her France Alps workshop, and her participation in major exhibitions like the California Gold Medal Show and the Brinton Museum invitational.

Ellen’s FASO site:
ellenhowardart.com/

Ellen’s Social Media:
facebook.com/ellen.howard.5

instagram.com/ellenhowardart/

Sign up for Ellen’s Newsletter!
ellenhowardart.com/email-newsletter

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Transcript:

Ellen Howard: 0:00

Just show up and say, Yes, you need to be willing to give up yourself to to help. It’s not always about showing up and seeing like, Oh, can I be in this gallery, or, you know, can I be in this show? But, you know, I’m happy to help with XYZ. So I think getting involved that way you learn more about the business, you learn things about yourself, like, what where am I? Where are my skills on the business side, what am I good at? What am I not so good at? What? Where do I need help on that side, but I think the willingness to help others is a big business plus.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:40

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world. In order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Ellen Howard, a Boise based landscape painter, instructor, art advocate and writer who works primarily in oils and gouache, known for her tranquil depictions of nature, water and luminous skies. In this conversation, Ellen shares how she transitioned from a demanding venture capital career into full time art guided by lifelong creative influences, especially her grandfather’s travel illustrations and drawings. She explains how an invitation to an oil painting class reignited her passion, leading to years of focused study plein air practice and a deep commitment to painting nature’s peaceful moments, from marshlands and seascapes to sunsets and Idaho’s mountains. Ellen also describes how surgery led her to experiment with gouache, a medium whose quick drawing, vibrancy and spontaneity now balances and informs her slower, layered oil work, drawing on her business background, she emphasizes time management, relationship building, consistent marketing, particularly newsletter marketing and showing up and saying yes as crucial to building opportunities and gallery representation, she encourages artists to develop a body of work they truly love, understand where it fits in the market, be patient with career growth and actively create their own opportunities, rather than waiting to be discovered. Finally, Ellen tells us about her upcoming gouache workshop in Sun Valley, her France Alps workshop, and her participation in major exhibitions like the California gold medal show and the Brinton museum Invitational. Welcome Ellen to the FASO podcast. How are you today? I’m doing well.

Ellen Howard: 2:35

Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I really appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Of course, I’m really happy to have you, because I think your work has such a unique voice to it. I really, really love your use of color and how you really try to capture specifically those sunsets which are so so so unique. And I feel like you, you really do a great job at basically grabbing the portrait of every sunset, which I think is so wonderful to look at, yeah,

Ellen Howard: 3:04

it’s one of my favorite themes to create,

Laura Arango Baier: 3:09

yeah, yeah. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Ellen Howard: 3:17

Sure, well, I grew up, actually in New England, and and then moved to the Bay Area to raise my family. And now I am located in Boise, Idaho, where the mountains are, and I’m a landscape painter, working primarily in oils and gouache, and I love both of those mediums. Gives me a lot of versatility. And I am also a big art advocate and an instructor for classes and workshops, and I also do a lot of art writing, so a lot of different hats.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:48

Yes, yeah, you are definitely a business lady as much as you’re an artist, which I really love, because it is so hard, it is so hard to have both parts, or both hats, so to speak. Since normally a lot of people go about pursuing this career, they start from the art side and then develop the business side. But you had the unique background of starting in the business side and then going into the art side, which is really awesome.

Ellen Howard: 4:17

Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah, on both sides, which has been nice,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:25

yes, and we’ll definitely dive more into that. But first I wanted to ask you, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Ellen Howard: 4:34

Well, I think I’ve always had an artist’s heart. I grew up in a creative family. My mother kind of dabbled in watercolor. My father was a musician, but it was really my grandfather who inspired me. He was in the airlines in the 1930s and 40s, but he was an illustrator. He would do cartoons. He was offered a job at Walt Disney, actually, which he turned down to be in the airlines, but he would come home. Home with all these exotic tales of his travels in Europe and Asia and the Middle East, and he would show me all of his drawings of the people in their traditional garb. So it just spurred a lot of imagination for me. So it wasn’t really until later in life that I got to pursue art. My parents got divorced at a really early age, and I was very practical, and I wanted to make sure that I could support myself, so I ended up going into business first, but I did minor in art history in college, and then, as my kids were growing up, I was involved in their elementary school, and I ran their art in Action Program for seven years, and then I also worked part time in a nearby college in their exhibitions area. So I helped with putting on their shows and talking to donors and sponsors and things like that. So I was always kind of involved in it, but not able to do it until later in life.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:07

Yeah, and when was that moment where you finally picked the brush back up?

Ellen Howard: 6:12

Well, it was funny. I actually was invited to go to an art class with a friend, an oil painting class, and she’s like, do you want to try this with me? And I’m like, Okay, sure. And it was really as soon as I picked the brush up and started painting, I was off, like, I just knew it was what I wanted to do. And I just started taking more lessons. I started at a community college and went to workshops and found teachers in my area that were experts in their field and took instruction from them. I spent a couple years doing drawing classes with charcoal, worked in pastel, and then got introduced to plein air painting out in the field, which I totally loved. So it just, it just kept expanding, like the more people I would meet, they would say, oh, try this, or go to this class and and now it’s just turned into an incredible journey and wonderful career for me. So I feel very grateful I didn’t expect this when I when I started. So I’m very grateful for the opportunities,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:18

yeah, and I find that that’s one of the beautiful things about life as we continue living it, is that it continues to surprise us. Yeah, like the more we follow those little things that interest us, the more it opens these doors we could have never even imagined. And I think that’s it’s, it’s an interesting like perspective to have too, especially when, when you’re young, like to realize this. Because I think we all, and I’m sure you may have experienced this too, have kind of decided I want to go from point A to point B, not realizing that life might throw you at point C, and it’s actually much better than point B,

Ellen Howard: 8:01

yeah, yeah. I’d always thought like, oh, I wished I had started art sooner, but I feel like my background has been helpful too in my career as an artist.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:14

Yes, yes, for sure, and we will dive into that. But first I wanted to ask you, because you do have both oil paintings and gouache paintings. And I wanted to ask when you first started, did you first start with oils and then fell into gouache? Or when did that romance with those two materials happen for you?

Ellen Howard: 8:35

Well, I did start with oils because I was planning on painting with oils and in the studio, and actually, what got me into gouache about five years ago is I had some surgery and I wasn’t able to lift my arm high, you know, and I usually stand when I when I paint. And so I was like, What can I do? And wash is just starting to have a resurgence. I’m like, Oh, I’ll try this medium, and I just fell in love with it. It’s, to me, it’s, it’s almost like oils. Obviously it’s water soluble, but the the vibrancy of the medium is really fun, and it kind of informs one informs the other, like I take more time with my oils and their primary for my galleries or competitions and oils can take, you know, on plein air, you can finish a piece in a day, but usually for a studio piece, it can take a couple days to a week or two weeks to finish. And sometimes I just need to switch and do something that’s quick and spontaneous. So the energy behind my gouache works and trying to figure out compositions, and then usually I can do something within two or three hours. So it’s kind of a nice feeling to finish a project. So that balance is really nice. So I really have enjoyed using both mediums, and people have been really responding to my gouache work too, which has been great.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:59

Yeah. Yeah, that must be really exciting too, because I bet there’s some sort of also, like, you know, when you go back and forth between the mediums, there must also be a little bit of like, oh, this, this is kind of the cool technique. I can pull this into oil painting, and then, oh, this is, this is something I like to do with oil paints, and I should try this on the gouache to see how it reacts, you know,

Ellen Howard: 10:20

yeah, there’s you can definitely layer with both mediums. The oil, you definitely have more texture and the juiciness of the oils. The gouache is more matte, but you can layer and get some really good marbling effects. It’s just a great medium to experiment in a smaller format, usually gouache is done a little bit smaller than your oils too.

Laura Arango Baier: 10:45

Yeah, that makes sense, since it dries so fast and you can’t really Chase everything all at once, yeah,

Ellen Howard: 10:53

but it’s fun doing it pioneer,

Laura Arango Baier: 10:55

yeah, oh yeah, I bet I just, I’m sorry, I just wanted to ask if you start your gouache on a white background instead.

Ellen Howard: 11:03

Yeah, I’ve experimented a couple different ways. I have toned it like with the yellow ochre, and I am experiment like with my oils. A lot of times I’ll do transparencies before I start the finished product, but I’ve found that I kind of like working on just the white background with the gouache, but I am still experimenting with a lot of different ways to use it.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:27

Yeah, yeah. I was just curious, because I feel like, since gouache is so matte, and it does lose a little bit of that vibrancy once it dries, I would be worried that maybe, like, starting on a darker tone background, kind of like, you know, with oil paints, it would lose also even more of that brightness.

Ellen Howard: 11:47

Yeah, I do it like a very light yellow ochre, yeah. But I agree, it depends on how you layer it and how thick you use the paint. I think one of the way I like to use gouache is in a thicker format. A lot of people use it thinner and so more leaning on watercolor sometimes than on the thickness of gouache. But I think that’s the beauty of the of the medium is when it’s when it’s layered on a thick, thicker basis.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that also makes me curious, can you tell us a little bit more about also your subject matter? So what is it about nature that really draws you in? And then can you tell us a little bit about your process when it comes to painting your work?

Ellen Howard: 12:39

Oh sure. So yeah, I love being out in nature. I’m a big Walker. I hike all the time, and so it just to me, nature is very peaceful, and it gets me to slow down. And so I think, you know, everything’s a lot about deadlines and the rush around, and especially plein air painting. Like I know the light changes a lot, but soon as I set up, there’s just a calm that comes over me, and then I’m like, Okay, I’m set to paint. This is my time. And, yeah, I just think it brings me a lot of peace. And I think my collectors, that’s one thing that has been continually I’ve got a compliment on, is that my paintings look like they’re very tranquil and peaceful. And then when they look at them, they feel, you know, a sense of calm. So that’s that’s been great. And so as far as plein air painting, you know, I do walk around quite a bit to try to find a scene that really excites me or I have an emotional connection with and then I set up. I usually do a small sketch, and then sometimes I do a color wash on my plein air, or sometimes I go right into to mixing the paint. And then, as far as my studio work, it does take me a little bit longer. I’ll do three or four drawings on a subject matter, and then sometimes I’ll do a value study, and then go into the final project. But I’m usually drawn to subject matters that are around water. It’s been I’ve lived on the coast for a long time, so the ocean has been a big, big thing for me. Marshlands in the Bay Area. I love that feeling of the birds coming in, the peaceful, peacefulness of that area. And then sunsets too. I actually started painting sunsets during covid. So I had been painting a lot of seascapes, and covid was such a dark and scary time, and I wanted to switch into a warmer palette. You know? What was it that was more joyful, I guess, a warmer, yeah, warmer palette. And so I started studying sunsets and going out and photographing them and and doing them on location. And it’s just become something that I’ve been really drawn to and that. And then, actually, now in in Boise, in Idaho, I’m. Very drawn to the mountains, so that has been a big surprise for me, how much I enjoy painting the mountains. So it’s a different feeling. You know, I’ve been drawn to the transitory elements in nature, kind of the fleeting moments of light, either early morning or that late afternoon sunset, but the grandeur of the mountains and the permanence of that, and then also just the cloud formations. Like I didn’t understand what Big Sky really meant until I got out here, and there’s just more sky. There’s more changes in the sky out here, and so that’s been a real excitement for me. So I’ve been gearing my work a little bit more towards that lately.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:48

Yeah, yeah. And I love that, because that also highlights, you know, how where we are can really affect what we notice and what we choose to paint. You know, like it is wonderful, of course, to paint lakes and water and, you know, these sunsets. But also it is nice to be able to explore, like, oh, this new thing that I observe and I love, which is mountains and how it’s also really cool, the balance between like, the fleeting impermanence of like clouds and sunset, and then also the permanence of mountains. They’ve been there longer than we have been alive, and will continue to exist beyond us, which also brings a sense of peace, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s very poetic, yeah, yeah. And then I guess also, I wanted to know you also wrote a very interesting quote in your biography, in your website, which is painting as a way of being. Do you mind elaborating on that a little bit?

Ellen Howard: 17:04

It’s just a part of me now, like I look back at before my life, when I wasn’t painting, and now, how a huge change that, you know, I was raising my children and I was in venture capital early on, and so I had a great career in business, but the whole art scene has really taken over my whole life. I would say that every day I’m doing something with art. It’s either I’m painting or I’m writing something, or meeting with an artist or going to an art exhibit. It’s the way I show up in the world, creatively, who I am. So I don’t think I could ever not have art in my life at this point. So yeah, it’s, it means a lot to me.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:57

Yeah, yeah. I love that, because it, it must be a huge contrast as well. It sounds like, you know, that your capital and business sounds like a very chaotic, driven, very, you know, not peaceful type of environment, compared to, you know, painting in a studio where you are your own company for many, many hours.

Ellen Howard: 18:20

Yeah. But also too, like, it was very busy, it was a demanding job, but part of my job was also building relationships between the clients and the portfolio managers, and I think that has helped me in the art world too, because I’ve been a big art advocate trying to build programs for artists. And currently I’m the vice president of the California art club, and I was co chair of the San Francisco chapter for many years. So I really enjoyed, you know, putting together paint outs or critiques or demos, and just trying to bring people together in the art world. It’s been a passion of mine also,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:07

yeah, no, and I think that’s great, because there’s, I think a lot of people have the misconception that artists are introverted, and therefore we’re we don’t go out, we don’t talk to people without realizing that actually this career, as I’ve seen it, is heavily dependent on networking and making connections and going out there and meeting people. So I think that’s an awesome thing to you know, go from business into painting and then deciding, oh, this is something that I think is important to share with others and to help others realize that this is something that can build community. This is something that will bring opportunities to others, instead of, you know, we’re all just hiding in our studio,

Ellen Howard: 19:55

and I think that’s hard as it was hard for me as an artist, I should say that, you know, I went. From going to the office every day to being alone in the studio doing your work, and obviously you have to do that work, but it’s great to be with other artists, because there’s some kind of energy when you get around other artists, like, oh, did you hear about this? Or, you know, or you learn a new technique, or find out something different, and, yeah, just talk about historical works, you know, as on a trip, and we were talking about an artist and all his compositional designs. And, you know, just diving into that kind of stuff really is helpful, you know. And you don’t get that by sitting in an office or, I mean, in your studio, you know, you get that, you know, being around people at a paint out and just casually talking to somebody, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 20:49

definitely yes, yeah. And that actually brings me to a question, which is, when did you become a full time artist? What was that transition like for you.

Ellen Howard: 21:00

I think it was probably around 2012 2014 I started devoting more and more time to being an artist. You’ll laugh. I think in the beginning, I used to set up my easel in my little galley kitchen and then try to cook at the same time I was painting, you know, that kind of stuff. So I got my own studios. That was a big step to have an outside studio, and then to be able to devote more of my time to pursuing my my art, my art background, so in creating the work so and I just, I kept taking more and more classes and meeting more people and and then other doors started opening too. I got into some shows, and I started locally, and then started to get into some of the national shows too.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:54

Yeah, yeah. So you must have spent, like, a good amount of time, you know, building your portfolio and then also networking. And did you, you know, build, maybe, like a series of paintings and then, you know, apply with those two shows? Or did you talk to galleries? How did that work for you?

Ellen Howard: 22:12

I think I started really with local shows, getting into local shows, and seeing what was accepted, and then getting into some of the national shows, and then also going to galleries that I was interested in, going to their open studios or their and just seeing how that worked and who was represented. You know, what their work looked like. You know, would my work fit into that? But it took a it was a long process. It wasn’t something that you just walk in the door and you’re accepted into a gallery so but yeah, after many years, I did actually approach a gallery in Carmel, and I brought him 10 of my pieces and and he said, Okay, I’ll try you out on these five if you sell, you know, we’ll, we’ll give you a chance in the gallery. So, and I sold in the first week three of my paintings. So that was, I was super grateful. It was a great relationship. And, yeah, so that was kind of the start of of getting myself into some galleries,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:24

that’s awesome. So since you do have your background in business and having a more business minded sort of approach to your art, how has your background been the most helpful for your career as an artist? What has been like something that has been really, really helpful for you.

Ellen Howard: 23:42

I think I have strong time management skills. I remember in the beginning, I would take my daytime or out and I would just go, like a nine to one is painting time like, you know, no phone calls, no you know, appointments or whatever. So I was able to manage my time. I think my organized organizational skills have been good. I can put things together. So I’ve put together independent exhibitions, which have been super fun in the Bay Area, got a bunch of artists and got the venue and put together shows, so that it’s helped. I think my ability just to talk to people. You know, in my business background, I had to make a lot of phone calls or go to meetings, and just my ability to present, you know, I think that’s helped quite a bit. And then the marketing, I think just being able to market yourself, I think, is really key too,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:39

yeah, yeah. And that’s actually segues really well into my next question, which is, in your experience, what has been the best marketing or business tactic that you’ve used that has either led to more sales or more opportunities

Ellen Howard: 24:54

for you? Well, I think the funniest thing is, I didn’t expect it, but I started. Newsletter eight years ago, and I started it actually, really for myself. I was, it was an accountability newsletter. So every month I was like, What did I accomplish? What did I get into? Any shows, you know, what paintings that I accomplish? What am I learning? What can I pass on? So, like, the fifth of, the 15th of every month. If I didn’t have, you know, an idea of what I’ve done, I would panic. I’m like, Okay, I’ve got to produce this newsletter at the end of the month. What am I going to say? And so that is just and I’ve done it every month. The last eight, eight years, I have not missed a month, and I think it’s just grown. And I’ve got a nice following on my newsletter. I really enjoy writing it, and it’s, it’s more I do, obviously show my work and what’s coming up for me professionally, but I always come up with a theme, like, what is going on in the world that could help other people, you know, or what, what’s going on. It’s important. Like in February, I took a spin on the Olympics with the figure skaters. And one woman won, Elise, Lou, and another person, Amber, she, you know, she was designated to win, but she had a mistake. And then the male, the quad King, missed some of his jumps. So my the title of the of the newsletter is, what does success look like? So, and I referred it back to a painter, you know, does success look like something that you know you’re getting into every single show, or are you continually putting in work, and all of a sudden you miss one thing, or, you know, so it’s, what does that look for you? You know, all the years of work behind something that people don’t see. So that was an interesting topic. And then this, this month, I just sent out, what, are you tending what matters to what you’re tending to. You know, where are you giving your attention? And with spring coming up in the gardens and things blooming like, how are you tending so, how you tending to your creative life? You know what’s important. You know, as an you know, is there a rush to see your finish painting, or is it you’re tending your garden by tilling your soil, you know the bud is just coming up, and then at time it’ll bloom. So in your creative life, having the patience to see something to fruition, not to always be in a rush to have it finished, which is something I struggle with too. You know, I can get impatient.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:45

So at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art, marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile, friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yeah, yeah. And I love that because that the impatience can also really apply to the career itself, right? Like, Oh, I really want to get into all of these shows, or I really just want to start selling a ton of my work. And it’s it would be nice, but at the same time, like it really does build up slowly, and it takes a lot of patience to allow these opportunities to also happen. Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to ask you to first, what does success look like for you? I.

Ellen Howard: 30:00

Yeah, that’s a hard question. I guess when I finished a painting that has been different for me, that I’ve tried a new technique and I felt that it came out successful. Sometimes it is hard when you feel very strongly about a work and you submit it to a show and it doesn’t get accepted. So that’s difficult. But I think as long as you keep learning and your work keeps improving, so I can look back to last year and say, oh, okay, I’ve improved in that area, there’s still more to go. So that’s what success. As long as I’m enjoying the process and I’m excited about what I’m doing, and I’m continuing and not giving up that successful.

Laura Arango Baier: 30:45

Yeah, that’s awesome, and that’s a great point. I feel like first i’ll probably link that newsletter in our show notes, so that people can go read it and also sign up for your newsletter. And I think also, because it’s such a I think it’s a really important topic, because it’s very natural for that perspective of success to change as time goes on and as your career develops. Like how you said, at first it might be, oh, getting into this show or trying to get into this one Gallery, and then maybe you realize, oh, you know what, this gallery, and I don’t really work. So now I got to change my success vision to something else. And I think that also ties a little bit into what we mentioned at the beginning, which is that life will sometimes, instead of taking you from point A to point B, it’ll take you to point C, and it’s much, much more fun and much more interesting, and just opens way more doors than you would think, yeah.

Ellen Howard: 31:44

And to think broader than just shows like, there’s a lot of path to art. And I think people get stuck into, oh, I have to go down this one street when there’s 10 streets you can go down to and and also, I think, you know, you have to be patient as far as far as what? Going back to the newsletter, you know, it took a while to build my email list, and I find with art, it’s a very emotional purchase. The collectors want to get to know you as an artist. So it’s an easy way, when you start doing a newsletter for them to see who you are, learn about who you are, see if they like your style, without having the pressure of purchasing something. They like your work. They can come to your show. They can come to your open studio. They can reach out to you. But they I have found, you know, even with Open Studios, usually the first year people are not buying that much, they have to get a feel of who you are, and then you build that relationship, and then sales happen after that,

Laura Arango Baier: 32:52

yeah, yeah. And that’s an excellent point, again, with patience. And then I wanted to ask you, how does one go about building that newsletter list.

Ellen Howard: 33:05

So I started out actually, with friends. I was, you know, would you be on my newsletter list? And then every time I went out to a show, I’d hand out my card, and I’d mention, hey, I do a newsletter if you’re interested in signing up. This is, you know, the link, or, you know, when people came to my Open Studios, I always had a notebook out, you know, here’s my newsletter, if you’d like to subscribe, you know, send up your, you know, your email list. So it was over years, just building it through exhibitions, shows, things like that, that I had signups.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:41

Yeah, and again, it’s that patience. And now you have so so many people on your list, I’m assuming, and I think we spoke about this last time as well, that it is artists and enthusiasts and also collectors. So one of the things that I’m curious about as well is, how do you balance out the topics of your your newsletters for collectors versus artists? Because obviously an artist might be reading your newsletter to find out more about process, to hear more about your maybe a little bit about your philosophy on how you how you work through a specific problem versus a collector. Might be a lot more interested in the story, the narrative, the what led to this piece? Part. How do you balance out those topics?

Ellen Howard: 34:35

I usually kind of do a combination of both. They usually say, pick one, like if your collector focus or artist focus, but I don’t do that. So if there’s a new piece, I talk about like, why I painted that piece, you know, what? Why was I drawn to that piece? Where was it? You know, and location wise. So with all my new work, I do say that to give the call. Lecture and understanding of why I’m painting that particular subject matter. And then I do have information about workshops or how I teach, you know, things that I have done that have been helpful for students. You know this last I taught in Carmel a couple weeks ago, and I had the students just do a quick six by eight value study before they did their color. And everybody always struggles with value, but just having that discipline of doing that, a small one, you know, I said, Okay, we’re only going to do, you know, 40 minutes. Give them a time frame, and then it just gives them the structure to create their their color. And they can use that as a reference, too. So I do give tips like that, or I’m working with gouache, you know how that process is going. So I do, I do go both areas,

Laura Arango Baier: 35:53

nice, yeah, because it’s, it is interesting to know, like, considering, like I said, artists just have such a different way of reaching out to specific groups of people, like, for example, in social media, I’ve noticed, at least in my following, most of my followers and fellow artists who are also looking at my work, but definitely on my newsletter. I also do notice that it’s a little bit mixed. It’s some artists, but also some people who are not painters, who are just curious. So that’s why I was also curious. Like, huh, how do how does one balance that out? Because so many opportunities and so many things can come through from those newsletters. Like, maybe an artist, a fellow artist, might be like, Oh, this would be great for a show. But a collector might be like, Oh, this would be great on my wall, you know. So it’s a little bit of, like, a complicated, you know, like, which path do we choose? But having that option of, like, just both and balancing it out, that also sounds like a very good midway point.

Ellen Howard: 37:00

Well, even for artists like, hearing about why I painted something like, I think that backstory, you know, even though it’s geared more for a collector, artists are like, Okay, why am I, you know, painting this subject matter. What is it about this subject matter that I enjoy painting? Because I think you know, no matter who you are, if you’re not excited about what you’re painting, the painting is not going to come out great. You know, there’s not going to be that energy or there’s an emotional tie to what you’re creating. So understanding your why, I think, is very important.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:38

Yeah, yeah, that is true. It is very important for artists to self reflect through also observing other artists and their self reflection. That’s a very good point. I also wanted to ask you, what are some business skills that you would recommend for artists to really focus on, I mean, maybe, like, your top one or two skills that you would say, build that

Ellen Howard: 38:06

just show up and say yes. And so what I mean about that is you have to be in person. You have to show up. So if there’s an open house, you know, if there’s an art exhibition, you just never know who you’re going to meet. And one of the things that opened the door for me, a big deal is that I was looking I had a studio, and this woman, Ruth waters, was opening up a museum with studios, and we were friends, and I said to her, is there anything I can do to help you? And she said, Yes. And she goes, will you be one of my curators? And at the time, I was like, Oh, I don’t have time. I just got my studio. I want to do my work, and but I knew she needed help, so I said, Yes. And that opened up a huge amount of doors. So I served on the curatorial committee. I met a lot of artists, and then eventually I proposed my own show, which was very successful. I worked with two other artists, and it was 19 artists for the exhibition. It was plein air to studio. Very well attended. John stern did our forward for us in our brochure, which was incredible and and that led to me being asked to co chair the California art club San Francisco chapter. So you just don’t know where something is going to lead. And it was just me being willing to help her out in the beginning. So I think as an artist, you need to also, you need to be willing to give of yourself to to help. It’s not always about showing up and seeing like, Oh, can I be in this gallery? Or, you know, can I be in this show? But you know, if. You’re a great writer. Oh, can I help you write an email for this show? Or I’m happy to help with XYZ. So I think getting involved that way, you learn more about the business. You learn things about yourself, like, what, where am I? Where are my skills on the business side, what am I good at? What am I not so good at where do I need help on that side? You know, some people are great with social media. Oh, I’ll do your social media blitzes for your show. But I think the willingness to help others is a big business.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:37

Plus, yes, yeah. You know, that’s very underrated, and you’re probably one of the very first people I’ve heard mentioned, you know, helping. Like, yes, it’s, there’s the way of helping, of like, giving information to other people, kind of, like, how we’re doing with the podcast. But I think, actually, you know, physically, for someone to show up somewhere and as an artist, and offer help, offer assistance that’s really great for building relationships, building your skills, building all of these things that, in the end, like will help your career move forward. So that’s a really, really great tip, and very unexpected too, which I love. Yeah. I mean, you never know what, what someone’s experience might be, kind of like yours. That, oh, volunteering led to this opportunity, and that led to this other opportunity, and then this other opportunity. And you also mentioned, oh, if you’re a great writer, you also mentioned last time that some of your writing has also been in magazine, yeah, can’t remember which one now, yeah, plein air.

Ellen Howard: 41:44

Yeah, plein air magazine, yeah, yes. So yeah, I’ve been working about nine months as a guest contributor for that which has been great, because I get to interview artists, learn more about their process, or I deep dive into a topic. Rayleigh scatter is the next article coming out. It’s how we see the colors of a sunset and how they translate in the landscape also. And so that was a really great article to write, and that’s what I actually demoed at the plein air convention last year. Was that topic in gouache, doing the sunset and gouache. So I have

Laura Arango Baier: 42:25

a little bit of a side question there, because I’m very curious. I’ve only tried gouache a couple times. Do you find that painting a sunset with gouache versus painting with oils? Which one do you find a little bit more challenging

Ellen Howard: 42:40

you’re doing, if it’s plein air, you’re doing it both quickly. So with the with the oils, you can kind of pre mix a little bit to, you know, and then it you can adjust the color. So probably, I don’t know that’s a hard question, probably the gouache is, but you’re moving fast with gouache anyway. So, yeah, it’s a quicker medium. I mean, you you can adjust, yeah, probably the gouache, because even though it’s quicker, you have to get those colors right initially, you don’t have a lot of time to lay over additional colors, and with the oils, you can get the initial color in, but you can tweak it a little bit to brighten it or to tone it down a little bit more. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 43:27

yeah, that makes sense. I was just curious because you mentioned it, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, in terms of final advice, like career advice. What would you recommend for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Ellen Howard: 43:48

I would just recommend that you take some patience and maybe start slowly. You know, you know, if you’re able financially to quit your job and do it full time, that’s wonderful. But I think sometimes doing a slow approach, where you’re doing something part time, and then transitioning into being an artist, and there’s a Yeah, like, a lot of components to it, so you have to do a lot of research, like, what type of artists are you going to be? Traditional abstract artists, figurative artists, you know, where do you see yourself fitting in the marketplace? Or, do you see yourself fitting in the marketplace? Or how you going to navigate that? Navigate that? Or are you going to open up a different line of you know, there’s a lot of online things too. So try to understand the business components of it. First. You know, where you think your work would be most suitable. Things evolve, and your work probably will change. And you know, over time, but kind of understanding that first, and just having a thick skin, because there’s a lot of subjectivity in art, you know. Somebody loves your work, another person doesn’t like your work. So you have to feel comfortable about what you’re doing and strong in your own person on on how you want your work to look and just having the strength to know you know, you will find your your path. But it might not be the first or second or third path that you look like it might be the fourth or fifth path?

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

Yeah, yeah. Those are all excellent points. And I think also, there’s this risk that a lot of especially like early career artists, fall into, which is, instead of thinking, Oh, where does my work fit, they think, oh, what’s the most popular thing, and how do I fit myself into it? Which I think is a big mistake, because they end up hating it later on. How does, how does someone, you know, sit back and decide, you know what means more to me? Like, what would you recommend if someone’s stuck on that, on that sort of business, first versus my art first mindset.

Ellen Howard: 46:09

Well, I mean, you have to paint what you really love, so that comes first, you know, and you’ll develop your style. So you do need to have a body of work, you know that you feel like, okay, here’s 10 paintings that represent what I want my work to look like, or what I’m drawn to. And then the second phase of it is finding where the market, where you might fit with that market. You know, there is there clubs that would be aligned with you, or is there local or national shows, there’s our art organizations like almost. I mean, the plein air movement has been incredible. So most states have a plein air organization if that’s what they’re interested in, and even if they’re not plein air, even attending them, because maybe somebody in that group would know another group that would fit or another couple artists so and then, you know, also too, you can always, you know, do your own shows. You know you can, you can contact, you know, an exhibition space and see if you can rent that. If you want to do your own shows, there’s a lot of different ways to do it. You can go with other groups of artists and put together your own group show. You can advertise your own group show. So sometimes I would say, don’t always wait to be asked to do something. Take the initiative. If you feel passionate about your work, take the initiative. Find a venue. Find a spot you know, or if it’s strong, with a group show, find three other artists that align with your work and present something so don’t be afraid to try something new.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:52

Yeah, creating your own opportunities in that sense is also, yeah, very, very smart, because you never know who shows up to that show that may not have happened to you if you had never had, like, I said, the initiative to even attempt it. So I feel like it’s kind of interesting, because there’s a little bit there of, like, having almost, like, the gumption to just go for it, you know, like, yeah, the strength is just, you know what? I’m not going to sit here and wait for this opportunity to fall in my lap, I’m going to make it happen, and this is how it’s going to happen. And I think having that mentality also really, really helps.

Ellen Howard: 48:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it’s very helpful, yeah, yeah, but you got to do the work first.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:34

Yes, yeah. I mean, that’s the base of everything, is having paintings for people to look at and for people to admire, and then everything else has to come after that, for sure. And then I wanted to ask you, do you have any upcoming shows, exhibitions, workshops that you would like to promote?

Ellen Howard: 48:55

Yeah, I actually have a gouache workshop coming up in April in Sun Valley, so if you’re interested in that, and then I’ll be at the California gold medal show in June, which I’m excited about. I’m also teaching in France in June, so French Alps, and I’m excited. I’ve got 12 students coming over for that. And and then the fall, I’ll be with the bright Museum, small work, for their Invitational show in Wyoming. So yeah, my daughter’s wedding is coming up in May too, so the spring is a big time for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:31

So that’s so exciting. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. You’re welcome. Yeah, sounds like a great year. And I will, of course, include all of links for everything that you have mentioned. And then if someone wants to see more of your work, where can they see it?

Ellen Howard: 49:47

I’m represented at Carmel fine art in Carmel, and also Holton Studio Gallery in Berkeley, California, and on my website also, so you can always contact me through there.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:59

Carl. Perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Alan, for this. Really honestly, I took so many notes. This is this has been a really helpful conversation. I hope our listeners have also been taking fervent notes, because it’s one of those rare opportunities to talk to an artist who is very, you know, business focused as well. So thank you.

Ellen Howard: 50:21

Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. I appreciate it, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:26

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode we sat down with Emma Kalff, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90–95% of her income from her art after years of gradual building, side jobs, and business education. She began in sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her, and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts. Her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered, dreamlike paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically rather than from strict pre-planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large 30x40 inch linen paintings—“who, what, when, where, why”—that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically, and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business: balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities, and not waiting passively to be “discovered.” Throughout the conversation, she is honest about the psychological challenges—discipline, burnout, distraction from social media—while still affirming that this open-ended, uncertain time offers artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and Patreon to stay updated on her work!

Emma’s FASO site:
emmakalff.com/

Sign up for Emma’s Newsletter!
emmakalff.com/page/49408/newsletter-signup

Emma’s Patreon:
patreon.com/cw/EmmaKalff

Emma’s Social Media:
instagram.com/emmakalff/

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Transcript:

Emma Kalff: 0:00

That’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere. And it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, yeah, you’re running a business, and you live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Emma Kalf, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90 to 95% of her income from her art. After years of gradual building site jobs and business education, she began in Sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts, her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered dream like paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically, rather than from strict pre planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large, 30 by 40 inch linen paintings, who, what, when, where and why, that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business, balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities and not passively waiting to be discovered throughout the conversation, Emma is honest about the psychological challenges, discipline, burnout, distraction from social media, while still affirming that this open ended, uncertain time offers Artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and patreon to stay updated on her work. Welcome Emma to the FASO podcast. How are you today?

Emma Kalff: 2:32

I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:36

Yeah, I’m excited to have you because I love your work, I think there’s something so unique about the vibe in your work. The general sort of theme that just permeates through all of them is this very otherworldly, very dreamlike. And I’ve never seen paintings quite like that before, so I’m very excited to pick your brain about how they have come to be. So thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you, yeah, yeah, of course. But before we dive into your beautiful work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Emma Kalff: 3:16

Yeah. So I’m Emma Kulp. I live in southwestern Colorado, in a super tiny rural town of 1000 people, I work largely for myself. I’d say like 90 95% of my income is from art. Took me a while to get there, definitely, like, not an overnight thing by any means. I let’s see, I’m in my early 30s now. I started out, went to college in Boston, at Boston University, studied sociology, and then realized pretty quickly that social work wasn’t really going to work for me, because it’s really emotionally taxing and draining, and I kind of found myself all the time in college. I was just in the Arts Building looking at the paintings, because they had this big hall with all the the painting majors work, and I was always in there looking at everything. And yeah, I graduated, and I bought a one way ticket to New Orleans. Didn’t really have a plan, but ended up modeling, figure modeling in art classes and stuff, and just started to become completely enthralled in the art world. Because every time I modeled, I got, like, a little lesson, and I got to watch everybody draw and learn. And so I got hooked really quickly, and I ended up studying at the Academy of Fine Arts in New Orleans after modeling there under alcipus osals. He actually recently passed. He passed in September. Unfortunately, I. But yeah, I had a really, I was fortunate. I had a really, really good education in the arts, classical education, and very rigorous and after that, I did mostly landscape work, a lot of plein air. And then I started, more recently, layering the figure into my work, and I mostly paint oil on wood panel. And, yeah, that’s what I’m doing now.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:34

Yeah, yeah. I think, Oh, I love that. There’s nothing better than, you know, hearing someone who very much. Like, didn’t realize, like, Oh, this is where I’m going, and just went with the flow, because that’s what it really feels like. Because it goes to show that sometimes, you know, our intuition just tends to work in magical ways, or even just the things we naturally gravitate towards. And hearing that you were a model, I love that, because, of course, I studied at academies, and there was nothing more fun to than, like, talking to the model. And usually they’re always artists. They’re, they tend to be musicians, actors, performers, also very, very artistically oriented. So I think it’s really cool that you were able to, you know, get in there and also like, you know, peek at, like, what people are doing, and, like, listen to the lessons, and then decide, okay, now I’m gonna do this because I’m sure it must have given you also a little bit of an idea of what it was going to be like to study how to paint, right?

Emma Kalff: 6:30

Yeah, that’s a good point, actually, yeah. And it, you know, New Orleans, the depth of the art world is very intense, like, there’s a lot of different pockets that you can sort of vanish into in the art world. And so I got, yeah, I got an inside look behind the scenes in like two lane, but also like private artist studios and like sculptor studios painters, like random little offshoot drawing groups that people tried to start that didn’t go anywhere. And, like, it was just a very broad sort of education in a way that I didn’t even, I don’t think I even realized that at the time. But, yeah, it was very, it was very cool,

Laura Arango Baier: 7:16

yeah, yeah. And also just, I think, the really cool thing that I think you experienced, that not many artists kind of think about, also, is getting that insight about the actual structure of these schools. Because sometimes, you know, someone would be like, Oh, I really want to go study here, but then they don’t really, they can’t really visualize or imagine, like, the actual way that these schools are structured, like when you’re working with the model, and then when you’re working on still life or working on or working on another project, it’s a very it’s kind of rigid, it’s very specific. So knowing that is very helpful, because you know what to expect. Yeah, and do you find that you always wanted to follow the path of the artist? Or was that like, you know, it just kind of emerged as you went on,

Emma Kalff: 8:04

yeah, the more I look back on my life, I’m like, I don’t think I could have done anything else. For one thing, I’m really bad at working for other people. I’m like, I don’t have that personality type. Like, I can’t show up at an office at nine o’clock in the morning dressed in a way that I wouldn’t normally dress, and talking in a way that I wouldn’t normally talk like I I cannot do that, unfortunately, so. But also, yeah, from the time I was really little, I think this is the only thing that I really wanted to do. And my mom used to take us to like I grew up outside of Philadelphia, and she used to take us to the Philly Museum of Art all the time. And I would, I’d have these almost like spiritual experiences in front of the paintings at a really young age, like, I mean, just huge paintings, and I would just stand in front of them, and almost like cry when I was even like, I don’t know, 1012, 13 years old. And, yeah, it’s interesting. I was always really attached to painting, and then sort of falling into the art world, you develop this other relationship to it, where I have a more technical view of it now, and, like, I don’t go to a museum and cry in front of the paintings anymore, which is sort of, it’s a bit of a loss, but it’s also just growing into, I think, being an artist and like building a career out of it, you Just start to stand at a different angle towards it. But yeah, I the more I think about it, the less I think I would have done anything else with my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:51

Yeah, I feel like a lot of artists relate to that, also the I can’t imagine working regular quotations. I. Job because I say the exact same thing. It’s like, I don’t like working for someone else. I don’t like being told what to do, because it there’s something about it just feels like micromanagement. So it’s like, it’s funny. But then at the same time, I think being your own boss can be really tough too, because, like I mentioned to you before, it’s like, I hope, I hope your boss is nice to you. Because I think as artists, we tend to be kind of, kind of rough with ourselves. It’s, it’s a bit of a it’s kind of, it’s a double edged sword, because, of course, we want to reach for excellence, and the way to reach for excellence is by, like, working hard towards it. But I think, you know, it’s also useful to not overdo it, because then, if you’re burnt out from putting yourself into so many roles and trying to do so many things, you end up, you know, struggling, and then you can’t work for like, a month or two or a year, because you’re just so burned out. But yeah, I totally relate to that. And then even also that sort of like loss of innocence, of like, Oh, I know how this is painted. It’s no longer, quote, unquote magical anymore, but at the same time, yeah, and it can feel kind of sad, but then you can still kind of look at the images that inspire you anyway, and still be fascinated by them, maybe not in the same sense, because I totally relate to that too, but you still get that feeling of, huh? I wonder how they did that aspect. I wonder how they painted this little piece, what pigments that they use, because it becomes like this almost dissection of understanding of like composition and storytelling and all these things that add complexity. And you can still look at the image and think, I remember when I used to cry in front of this, but at the same time, though, it’s like, oh, I mean, I won’t, but, I mean, I’ll cry, but it’s because I want to paint like, because it like moves me in the same way anymore, but it’s kind of cool, because that means you feel like it’s reachable to an extent. I feel like when, when we’re, you know, incapable of doing it, it does, you know, have a different feeling. But having that capability, it’s like, Oh, I’m gonna grab it. I’m gonna do it. If anything, it’s like, almost like motivational,

Emma Kalff: 12:18

yeah, that is true. It’s more of like a technical fascination than anything else, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:25

and speaking, actually also of ideas and creation. Where does an idea begin for you for your paintings?

Emma Kalff: 12:36

So, yeah, like I said, I went to this really classical school where it was a very one to one relationship. It was like, there’s a piece of fruit on the table at 2pm like, paint the piece of fruit on the table at 2pm don’t mess it up. You know, fix this. Fix that. It was like a very which was great. It was a very one to one relationship with what you were seeing and what you were painting. And I think that’s super important to develop that as an artist, because you’re actually learning the language. Like my teacher used to say, if you come out of an art school, somebody should be able to put something in front of you, any given object on the planet, and you should be able to paint it. And if they’re not teaching you that, then, like, what have you actually learned? So I’m, I’m super grateful for that. But after I got out of school, I did sort of want to deviate from that, I guess, in my own way, and move into, like, more layered work that wasn’t such a one to one relationship to reality. And I had a teacher in school, Gus Hoffman, and he he was always talking about how he builds a composition as he goes and he doesn’t start with a single idea. He just sort of like, goes, follows it and lets it click into place. And so I started exploring that, basically where something starts for me is usually a photo. I always am taking pictures of everything. I try to take a lot of candid photos of people like this is my sister, just like eating something on the side of the road at one point, and that that background is different landscape that I layered in. But yeah, I really like candid images of people. Also, where I live in Colorado is super beautiful. It’s it looks like the Swiss Alps out here. It’s like this huge mountain range, the San Juans with the snow on it, and like, everywhere you turn, it’s just really beautiful. So it’s a combination of photos and the landscape, because I have such a long history of. Of plein air. I am always driving around with an easel in my car, and I always have a couple, like, I probably have three or four panels in my car right now. I have a bunch of paint and stuff. So, like, I pull over whenever I see something I like, and have some time, I’ll pull over and paint it, and then I’ll take that landscape back into the studio and layer stuff into it. Don’t layer a figure. And then sometimes I’ll take something out, or I’ll change the color palette, or just sort of keep moving like that until it sort of clicks into base. I very rarely start with an idea and then execute it exactly how I’ve drawn it. I have a really hard time that I usually kind of let it unfold, which, you know, is it’s a sort of a double edged sword, because I have paintings that took me, like, three years to complete, because they were they were gone over so many times that you wouldn’t recognize the original image if you saw it to the last image, like the final painting that you see, there’s like three other paintings underneath that. But, yeah, that’s, that’s mostly how I work now.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:22

Sorry, I was muted. Yeah, no, I love that, because that it’s, I feel like, in terms of process, you mentioned a lot of things there that were very important, which is, you know, the over planning type of stuff that, like we artists tend to do, or the approach of, like, trying to organically allow a piece to develop as you work with it. I think those are, like, those two parts of of the coin that are, I guess, like we all experience and experiment with those types of ways of working at some point, because the rigid over planning, like you said, like, it just sometimes it just doesn’t work out the same way. Like, like, you lay everything how you think it’s supposed to go, and then it doesn’t. It just doesn’t, like, maybe the arm isn’t in the right place, like, you imagine it in a different spot, but it just physically can’t do that. But then I really love that idea of just allowing something to develop, or even, like a halfway kind of, like what your instructor mentioned, where it’s like, oh, I start with like, maybe this one thing, and then it just comes together. I think that’s really awesome. And then currently with your work, because you created a really cool series that’s very much based on some sort of work that you did, where you went around and you did, I believe it was, it was like, farming, yeah, yeah. I really love those pieces. And then, because it’s so there’s so there’s something very much, like, tied into memory and like, how you know, it’s really cool because, like, even in the painting showing your background there of your sister, I wouldn’t have thought that she wasn’t in that landscape, which I think is really cool too, because you have that’s one of those really difficult things to do as an artist, is to be able to make your figure feel like they’re in that landscape and not like a sticker, which tends to happen sometimes. So I think you’ve really pulled that off, and especially also in the other paintings I’ve seen of yours with people you’re welcome. What are you trying like? What’s your current question that you are chasing right now in your work? What is What are you trying to figure out in your work right now, whether it’s, you know, process or subject matter?

Emma Kalff: 18:48

Yeah, it’s funny talking about questions, because I’m actually working on a series of 530, by 40 inch paintings that are each painting is a question. So there’s who, what, when, where and why, are the five paintings. And it’s my first time working on linen. Actually, maybe since art school, I sort of moved away from campus, but I’m on linen now, and I actually, I really, really like it, but it’s sort of a metaphor, I guess, for this time that we live in like, I feel very, almost like I’m in this existential crisis where I’m a little paralyzed and I don’t know, like what to do or where to go or how I’m supposed to move anymore, because we’re in this socially and politically, like, highly volatile and very transitory space. It feels like, like we don’t have a cultural moment or landmark almost in history to compare to this, because the influence of technology is so heavy. So it’s kind of like we’re all learning how to walk in a way, like how to figure this out and so kind of just. Asking these like super basic questions, feels like a starting place where I can sort of project my ideas onto and I actually got this book. It’s like the dictionary of archetype and symbol in art history when I started this series, because I thought, you know, like we aren’t connected to in the same way that we are in such a confusing time. It’s it that translates into the art world too, right? Like you used to be able to look at a painting and literally read what the artist was saying. It wasn’t like up for interpretation. It wasn’t it was either like commissioned by the church as a direct commission of a certain religious icon or story, or it was commissioned by a wealthy patron who wanted the specific sort of image of their family or what have you. It was very top down, and it was very direct. And even like you can go back and look at old still lifes, and it’s like, in this book, it’s like each object that you look at has this specific meaning, like a candle, if you put a candle, it was like the symbol for the fleeting nature of life. Or you put a deck of cards, and that was the crazy thing to me. Is a deck of cards used to be the symbol for Vice, which I’m like, if you put a deck of cards in a painting. Now, I think people would like that would totally not connect. That would completely not someone would not be like, Oh, you live a life of vice. Like, you know, it was more be like, Oh, this is kind of a fun touch or something. So I think that’s all really interesting. And I I started to look through this dictionary and sort of incorporate some of the symbols into my paintings, and sort of exploring putting those old symbols that has such a concrete meaning into a contemporary context where that meaning isn’t really there anymore, but you can still use the symbol. And I guess I’m thinking about, I don’t think that we’ll ever go back to a time when there’s such a strict definition, visual definition, to things in painting, but I’m curious where we end up a few decades from now, and like, whether we will sort of loosely reinvent some new symbols of meaning, or if we’ll just keep moving in this, like open ended direction, which the open ended direction is great, like, I’m very grateful to be an artist in A time where you can do what you want. And I think I’m, I’m doing what I’m doing, because I’m living in this time. Like, if I was living even 50 or 100 or 200 years ago, I would be completely different, probably. But yeah, I’m, I’m glad that we live in this open ended time. I just think it’s, it’s like, in such a stark contrast to where it was, and it’s, yeah, it’s interesting to to just compare and like, think about where it was and where it’s going,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:14

yeah, yeah. And I feel like, I, I totally relate to that. There’s nothing more fun than like, coming across like, oh, this. This object over here actually means this. And one of my favorite ones was, like, if a portrait painter painted someone and then they put a fly on them, it was supposed to mean that they were a terrible person, or, like, they had, like, some sketchy thing, because it’s like, huh, I would totally sneak that into a painting if I ever did like a painting of someone I didn’t particularly like or wanted to represent as like a negative figure. So I totally love that. I’m also very much into, like, the symbolism of old paintings. And it is, it is a great pity that we don’t quite have that anymore, in the same way, you know, because time goes on and things change, I feel like the equivalent, maybe for a generation, is memes, where sounds have meaning. Now, where you hear it is like, Oh, that. That’s the sound when someone’s really disappointed that the thing they bought turned out to be bad, or, you know, stuff like that. I feel like that’s maybe, like the newest stuff that’s going around. But it is really wonderful, like you said, to be in a time where you can do anything on a canvas, and it will most likely be appreciated and seen by tons of people because internet, which also brings me to something you mentioned, which is we are definitely in unprecedented times. And I heard a person describe it as we are building an airplane in the sky, and we don’t know if it’s going to work, because that’s the repercussions that it’s had on, like, you know, people’s self esteem, like children, for example, the addictive qualities of Instagram and social media and all these things. These are all fascinating things. And then, of course, AI like, there’s. So much happening in our time that we just we don’t know what to do with it. So I think it is, it is a little bit like how you said, an existential crisis. I also feel the same. I also feel like, oh my god, this tiny black box that I hold every day kind of freaks me out. But also I can read stuff that’s really cool about paintings and look at paintings and these things that I love, it’s almost like a love hate relationship, which really sucks, but I totally relate to that. So I’m really excited to see your paintings, because I bet it’ll be a really cool interpretation of, like, different symbols, and I’m very, very curious now do you when do you think you’ll have these completed? Or do you not have, like, a particular timeline for them?

Emma Kalff: 25:47

Um, my loose timeline right now is dropping them in July. I’m hoping that that will give me I have all the concepts, and most of them are like, 50, 60% of the way there, except for who I’m getting really stumped on who, because I don’t want to hit the nail too hard on the head or, like, make it to like, yeah, too, yeah. Like a person with a mask on or something. So I’m trying to, I’m looking for ways to make that one a little more subtle, but I’m thinking I’ll drop them in July. I’m going to put them out through my newsletter, which I’ll give you the link and yeah, so if you’re interested in that, just sign up at my newsletter and you’ll get first dibs on that. I’m really excited about it, and they’re pretty large scale for me, like I, because I lived on the road and did plein air on the road for about a year. I got really used to doing I did like, I think it was 40 little eight by 10 panels, and because that could just stick them in my car, you know, they were the little, thin little panels. So I’m, I’m very happy to have a studio now and maybe doing some bigger work.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:04

Yeah, yeah, I feel like that’s like, oh, maybe not every artist, but I think most people that I’ve met, we always feel like I want to do big. Want to do big. It’s a challenge. Just more space. There’s more detail that needs to be input, right? Because they’re the smaller paintings, they can be very detailed, right? But the bigger ones, the challenge is making it look good. Because I like, if you’re doing something life size, for example, it can be, you know, really tough to really make it work. And at that point, of course, having a studio space is very, very important. You can’t really do that out of your car, yeah, but, you know, having the space to step back and, like, look at the if you have a model, or look at the image, and then look at painting, make sure that it’s looking, you know, optically, all right, yeah, that’s really exciting. It’s always fun to hear, you know, artists like challenging themselves as well. Like, oh, my next thing is a really cool set of pieces. But then also, like, with a the extra part of, like, challenging your technique with size as well, whether it’s smaller or bigger. I think that’s really one of those things that a lot of us should be pursuing as artists as well. You know that challenge trying to find something more, something new for ourselves with what we already know. And I also wanted to ask you, because you did mention before that you make a good 90 to 95% on your work, which is really awesome for you, what was the turning point that made you believe that you can make a living from your work, and did you have, like, a specific mindset that you have to change in order to get there?

Emma Kalff: 28:49

Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, so I moved out to Colorado in 2020, like, right when covid hit, and I worked for a bit on a farm, and then I was unemployed, and I took this artist Summit, this three day artist Summit, with the professional artist Institute. You know Miguel Mayer, no know that name? Yeah, he runs this. It’s called the professional artist Institute, and I think I got it in my email, and I was kind of just living in this, like, covid borderland of like, these long days that ran together and I had nothing to do. And I thought, Okay, I’m going to take this summit. And I sat on my laptop for three days, and they went over all these really fascinating, like very concrete aspects of the art world, the professional art world that I had never thought about, like I had been selling my painting for bucks, you know, on the road, or 60 bucks or whatever. Like, I wasn’t doing that with the aim of, like supporting myself completely. It was just sort of a side. Hustle, and yeah, so I took that, and then I got kind of hooked, and I signed up for like online. You can get this package of online courses through the Professional Arts Institute. So it really was just like hitting the right resource at the right time, and I still worked on the side for three, four years after that, before I, like, went full time. But, yeah, I really, I really don’t have a business skill set naturally. Like, I think every artist is gifted in a certain area. You know, like you have the you have the technical side of like, your competence in making the sort of art that you want to make, and then you have the business side. And like both sides have a ton of individual skills that you have to learn. And it does. It will do it like serves you well to identify, like, where your strengths are. And then the good thing is, you can always learn and make up for what you don’t inherently have, because we live in the internet age, like the internet sucks, but it has helped me tremendously to like, be able to take classes and learn from people. I’m always in a class, like, right now I’m in Lennon bone. He runs stop the starving artist, and that’s all about, like, learning how to sell online, because I’ve always had, like, very local clients, and I want to, like, learn how to sell on the internet now. So yeah, it was really just getting lucky and finding that resource and being like, Oh, this is actually I don’t have to float in this nebulous cloud of of waiting to be discovered or hoping that someone’s going to bump into me on the street and take a big interest in my work and become a patron. Like, I feel like that’s sort of the cloud that I was floating in before I started taking classes. And I think that’s, that’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way, and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere, and it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, it’s, it’s a business, like you’re running, you know, yeah, you’re running a business. And we live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:48

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah. And I think that’s also part of that starving artist myth is the something’s gonna land on your lap, and that’s not, that’s not how it works, unless you’re, you know, already incredibly wealthy and don’t have to worry about your bills, and maybe your wealthy parents have good connections, right? Because that’s oftentimes what happens in certain parts of the art world. No hate to them. I mean, it must be really fortunate to be in that situation. But for for. The 80% of us who are not in that situation, maybe even 90, 99% of us who are not in that situation, we have to find other ways, right? Like, how you’re saying, like, find resources online. Those seem really great. Actually jotted them down, yeah and yeah, just that’s part of it as well. You know, being proactive in it, because it is, yeah, like, the idea of, like, the Bohemian artist who just, like, lives in poverty, and like, you know, this very like Oscar Wilde type of, like, it’s like, you can, you can do that too, if you want. But for those of us who want to have food on the table and maybe, hopefully a mortgage someday, can’t, can’t really do that. Can’t have the bohemian life. So yeah, that’s awesome. And then, since you do primarily live from your work, what are, what are some ways that you’ve been balancing your economy as an artist, and how has that experience been for you?

Emma Kalff: 36:00

What does that phrase mean, balancing your economy.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:02

So, like, you know, like, the, for example, if you want to, like, if you know how much your your rent is, right? Like, do you know? Like, Oh, I gotta sell X paintings, or I gotta do this. Or, like, how have you been managing that aspect of living from your work?

Emma Kalff: 36:19

Yeah, that’s fair. Um, I’m fortunate. I live in a rent controlled space, so my rents not very high. I I would be really struggling if my rent was like $2,000 or whatever most people are paying. But yeah, it’s a mix of commission work, like in a given year, sometimes I’ll have a lot of commissions back to back. Sometimes I won’t also something that helps balance it is to have a wide range of prices. So, like, my original work varies from like 600 to like this one is, like, the biggest one I’ve done, and it’s 13 grand. So there’s a very wide array of price points that people can pick, and then I’ll do like, print releases too. So it’s just figuring out, like, who your buyer is and what they may or may not be able to shell out. And also I usually, if I’m doing a commission like, I’ll let people pay in parts. So sometimes I’ll have a commission that pays out over, like, six months or a year, and it might not be a huge sum, like every month, but it’s still adding into the pot. And then I do classes. I do, like individual, one on one plein air workshops. And what else do I do? I have Patreon where I put, like, a little easy, like simple beginner painter lesson every two weeks. And so with all of those things combined, it’ll shake out every month that I’ve got enough. But I think the important thing is, like having, having a bunch of irons in the fire is really, has helped me, and it’s also like psychologically easier. I think if you have like, 10 Things going it’s kind of scattered brain. But it’s also like, if one thing fails, you’re not you’re not completely bottoming out and being like, oh my god, I can’t do this. It’s like, okay, I’m just gonna throw one more thing on the fire. If it doesn’t work out, it’s fine. But like, that way you always have sort of a rotating group of things that you’re that you can possibly be making money from. And yeah, it helps to balance your like expectations and not be so like having to succeed in any one area, and like, certain things can ebb and flow. Like, if you don’t have, like, I haven’t had a, I have a commission right now, but last year was pretty slow, you know. So then it’s like, the other things can start to take up. And, yeah, it just sort of like, goes in a rotation,

Laura Arango Baier: 39:18

yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s another really great point, you know, you can’t, like, every especially, you know, when you’re working for yourself, and it’s just more organic. In that sense, there are going to be, you know, times of like, Oh, I’m making a good amount, and times of like, oh, okay, I’m not making as much. But you know, if you’re smart, right, and you live below your means and you’re saving money, you won’t be too afraid of, like, Oh no, I’m not selling enough this month. Like, how you said it’s good to have, like, not all your eggs in one basket, because you drop that basket and you’re kind of kind of screwed. So it’s good to have that. Yeah, that’s a really great point. And of course, it does help to have to live in a place that is not killing your. Bank account. Because I think right now that’s also one of the big, big problems that a lot of artists are facing right now. But you know, at least the internet is a wonderful source as well for okay, I can literally live on an island somewhere and still be able to as long as it has a like a UPS or a FedEx or DHL, I can survive, you know, yeah, but yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, too, what so far has been the greatest challenge you have faced in your career as an artist? I

Emma Kalff: 40:43

I think it’s like, staying disciplined in the studio and like, artists are notorious for, like, we only want to work when we’re super inspired, and then when we’re not, it’s like, oh, I don’t want to do this. Like, and I’m, I’m certainly no exception to that. So I definitely have times where I’m just, like, really burned out. I don’t want to go in the studio, I don’t want to paint. I don’t have any exciting ideas going on and having the discipline and, like, making yourself show up is really hard. And sort of in the same vein, it’s been really hard to like all these little incalculable things, right? Like, how long is my work day supposed to be? How quantitatively, how many paintings am I supposed to produce in a month or a year? How many are supposed to go to a gallery? How many am I supposed to like hang on to for myself? How many should be? You know, it’s like when you when you work for someone else, all of those things are sort of taken out of the equation. And it’s a it is an easier life in a lot of respects, because you work a set amount of hours, and then you know exactly what you’re going to be paid and when you’re going to be paid. And to navigate the art world on your own is hard, because you can put in 10 hours of work on a painting and not be paid for that 10 hours for 10 years, right? Like a painting can sell 10 years later, or it can sell next week. And so navigating that alone can be, it can be really tough. And also, like, I think we live in this, well, America, where I am is like, very it’s, it’s super workaholic culture, and then it’s like, you know, you have to balance like, Okay, how much do I want to do and how much of a Break do I want to give myself? And like, yeah. So I think the hardest part has been answering all of those like little questions about, How is this supposed to go? How do I structure my work day, and how do I keep myself, like, disciplined, to where I continue to do it and I don’t burn myself out, but I still produce a set amount of work. Like, that’s all been pretty difficult.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:27

Yeah, I think that’s no matter what I mean, no matter what type of self employment you’re in. I think that’s like, the key, key, key thing is, you know, no, there’s no one to tell you what to do. Like you said, there’s no convenient like, oh, just show up at the office. They tell me what I’m supposed to get done, and then I go home right which, my opinion, that’s a little bit like putting all your eggs in one basket anyway, because it’s, you know, that company goes under, you’re kind of screwed. But, yeah, I think that’s, I totally agree with that challenge, because I also feel that because, I mean, when you’re in a place where, like, you can literally do anything in your time, right? And you have a whole day where you can choose, it becomes very challenging. Because, of course, we have these distracting little beep boop boxes that we have in our pockets that love to be a time suck. But then also I relate that to that too. You know that difficult, like, Man, I’m not inspired today, or like, kind of tired, or like, I just am not feeling it. But you know, still having to show up, I think that’s probably a hurdle we will always face forever as artists. Because unless you know, someone’s really on a roll, and they can keep that role going their entire career, that’s awesome. I doubt that that’s humanly possible. I think most of us, we we have to take vacations too, or, like, actually, Kim across. Asked an article recently by from a study that was done on creativity and how being bored and like, taking time away from like, if you just finished like, a bunch of projects, like, taking some time away from them, and like, let your brain kind of settle down and refresh it really, really helps with coming up with even more ideas like, so there’s, like you said, I think we have since we do live in in a culture, at least in North America, and I would say in some parts in Europe, as well, of productivity, first, productivity first. Like creating working, working, working. It burns you out precisely because there’s no real space to pause. Like, I’m sure many of people listening have also experienced like, you have a break and you immediately fill that break with something to do that has to get done, which, unfortunately, we do also exist in that world where, like, oh, I finished my job. Now I can finally clean my dishes or do my laundry. But there is, you know, some aspect of, like, giving yourself, like, time to just read a book, or, like, sit down in the silence and not listen to anything that also really helps.

Emma Kalff: 46:11

Yeah, I really miss being bored like I, I really miss being like a teenager and these like I, when I was in high school, the summer, days were just eternal, and it was like, oh my god, I could, like, rip my eyes out of my head, but that’s so important, you know, like, and it’s, it’s really a Herculean effort now to make yourself be bored, like, to actively be Like, I’m not going to sit on the phone and I’m going to sit on my couch and, like, stare at the wall until I’m, like, really exhausted from that. I, yeah, I’ve been thinking about just getting a flip phone and, like, leaving my my smartphone in the studio, just as, like, a this is a work thing. Like, I’m going to build for Instagram or whatever, and take pictures for that, but like, sort of walking it away to not have it constantly accessible. I’ve been toying with that, but, yeah, that’s another thing that’s it’s really hard, because now that that eye, like the eye of the camera, is in the studio. It lives in the studio. If you’re, like, that sort of painter, I know not everybody is. But like, I make a lot of videos, and I think a lot of people do, and it’s like, when you when you bring that in, it takes a lot of effort to only film and, like, not let it distract you from working. And that’s it’s really it’s really hard, and at the same time, it’s super cool that you know you can build your this is like the first time in the history of humanity that you can build your own personalized audience that is literally made up of people who specifically want to see what you’re doing. And with the touch of a button, you can say whatever you want to them at any second of any day, like that. Is really cool. It’s really cool. And I think it’s like, a very important tool, but, yeah, like learning how to balance, it is

Laura Arango Baier: 48:15

it’s very difficult. Yeah, yeah. I relate. I relate to that, especially what you just said about, you know, having a camera in the studio, because it does, in some ways, it shifts the energy of the room, because now it’s like, oh man, did I position the camera correctly? Did it like, the is it in the right spot? Or, Oh no, it’s out of focus, or, Oh no, my camera died and I didn’t notice. There’s so many little extra distractions that end up happening. It’s almost better to just have like a surveillance camera or something like, oh, like, because it just, it’s a it’s so distracting to like, Okay, I’m recording on my phone. Oh no. My phone ran out of like, memory. Oh, no, I gotta get, like, a, gosh, like a cloud service or something like, it’s, it’s so much extra stuff, you know, like the whole content creation hamster wheel, as I’m beginning to call it these days. It just feels like it can sometimes be a double edged sword, much like what we’ve discussed, because one, it’s awesome. You can connect with people who can observe, you know what you’re doing and learn from it, or feel inspired by it. Because there’s so many of us out there who do you know go on the internet specifically to connect with other people and be inspired by other people’s projects or other people’s ideas. But then if it starts taking over too much, then it feels like an obligation, and it almost feels like, oh, I want to go into the studio, but I have to record this, but I don’t really want to deal with the tripod and the camera placement, and then, oh no, I bumped into it. Because it was so close to me when I was painting this one part, and now I gotta re record, but then I already painted that, like, it’s just, oh, it is so frustrating. Like there’s like, it just feels like there’s no way. Although I did think of getting, like, those, you know, those really evil metal glasses that have the camera on them. I thought about getting just because I’m not gonna record other people out there. It’s just so convenient for painting. Yeah, it’s like, oh, boop. Now they’re on well,

Emma Kalff: 50:28

because then you film something from the side, but then it’s filmed on this weird like, I like, often will film something and then I look at it after I’ve recorded it, and I’m like, it’s so skewed, it doesn’t even make sense to post this. So then you have to, like, get your camera right here, and then you’re literally, like, painting like it’s crazy, awful.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:48

Yeah, I’ve seen in the early days, I think I saw I was, maybe it was Michael Klein. He did a video tutorial, but he had a GoPro, and it was okay. But I feel like his later videos are, of course, much, much better. The GoPro was a little bit like it just wouldn’t focus completely, or like it would move around a little too like, too much. But I feel like, yeah, that’s, you see, that’s like, one of those unique things that even when GoPros were much, much, much more popular, we were still trying to figure out how to record ourselves for people. So I yeah, hopefully we can find a good solution. Maybe we can all use those met a glasses and make people stop using them to record people who don’t want to be recorded. It’s like, oh, you should market this for artists who are trying to record themselves or stream. But, yeah, yeah. And then also, speaking of marketing, since you said, you know, you mentioned, you have quite a few things going at the same time. Do you find that there’s like, one thing that is one marketing thing, or one like, avenue of sales, almost like, you know, sales funnel, or any sort of like, of these irons that you keep that actually has been the most helpful for your career.

Emma Kalff: 52:08

I think it’s just good old fashioned, like talking to people. I read this thing a few years ago that was like getting out there and socializing and like going to our openings, or like going to the bar, and like talking about your work is not less important than like being in the studio. Like being in the studio, painting is not more important than that. If that’s what you’re trying to do is like, have a career. And I thought that that was really interesting. And I’ve started to like, it’s hard, right? It’s hard to, like talk about your art, because it feels sort of like you’re, like, showing off, or you’re tooting your own horn. Or, you know, it can feel very like self important. At least, I struggled with that, and like I used to when I lived in New Orleans, I had this license where you can sell in the French Quarter. There’s like, this huge raw iron fence around the St Louis Cathedral in the French Quarter, and you can get a license, and then 365, days a year, 24/7, you have this spot that you can set up on the fence and, like, hang your your paintings. And I did that, but I was really bad at it, because I couldn’t talk to people. Like I would just sit there and I would watch people, hundreds of people, it’s the French Quarter, hundreds of people come by every day. And I would watch people, and they would stop and look at my stuff, and then they would keep going. And it took me a long time to be like, Oh, it’s because I’m not talking to them. I didn’t think that, like, I was the sort of catalyst. I felt that the art would sort of like, do its own thing. But over I think I did that for like, two years, and over that time, I started realizing that people that talk and, like, put their stuff out there in a in a nice way for people and like, have a little chat. Those are the ones that are that are selling. And I, I do. I live in a really tiny town, I think I said population of 1000 but there are a lot of people here that love art, and there’s a lot of people with disposable income, there’s a lot of retired people, and so I think, like one of the big mistakes that I’ve made living out here is to underestimate that local the potential that local people might be interested in my work. Like, I think I was in this mindset of, oh, I have to get to New York, or I have to get in these galleries in LA or at least Denver or Santa Fe, I have to get into these urban places. But often, like, You’re the biggest proponent. Like. You’re the biggest sort of factor that that will help people connect, if that makes sense, and just sort of not caring about, like, looking stupid, and just talking about it until it feels natural, it did take a while, like, to figure out what I wanted to say and how to, how to, yeah, but I think just like, staying open and, you know, if someone is, like, expressing an interest in my work, I’ll be like, Oh, why don’t you come by the studio and, like, it doesn’t. It’s not to be like, Oh, do you want to buy this painting. It’s like, No, we’re gonna sit and like, I’ll make us some coffee and we’ll have a chat, and then maybe in a year, you’ll buy something, and maybe you won’t. And like, that’s fine, but like, we’ve had that chat. And, you know, you don’t even have to have, like, a studio. You can just sort of have people over in your living room and be like, these are my three paintings that I have, or whatever. Like, I think that that it doesn’t have to be this huge thing of, like, becoming this big artist in New York or whatever. Like, I think the times are changing, and you can really do it from wherever and like, just work with what you have.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:18

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you’re really emphasizing the local community aspect, because I’ve interviewed very many artists, and a good amount of them have focused first on local communities. And of course, I mean, I feel like it’s like, you become the community artist, right? Like You’re like the well known person in town, and people tend to really love that. You know, it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s our local artist. She does this, or he does that. And I’ve also, I lived on a tiny island of 1000 something. Maybe it was 2000 people tops, and they had, like, two local artists who were very, very beloved, and like, we’re sold so much whenever, like, tourists would come by. So it goes to show, you, know, really being part of some a small community, I think, is so much. It can be so much more fruitful than like New York City, because it’s easy to get lost in New York City, amongst other artists and amongst other people who are also just building, like, very surface level relationships, instead of, you know, becoming involved with community and becoming involved with like, Oh, hey, stop by my studio. Let’s hang out. Let’s have a coffee, right? That’s very different from like, Here’s my card. I hope you like my work, and then maybe that person just throws it out. Because, you know, I when I lived in New York City, that was very much the feeling you get there. Everyone’s really, really trying to make things work and get noticed by Gallery, and get like, 20 million rejections. But that’s, of course, part of it. But then, yeah, nurturing the local stuff is, is very fulfilling and underrated, also, because, you know, it is usually a lot less expensive to live in a smaller community than it is in New York City where, like, the rent, I think, has reached like $5,000 a month. Yeah, I think, but I think that’s for like a multiple bedroom household. Maybe, like a two bedroom. It’s insane. Yeah, hopefully it goes down when I was there. Was definitely not that. But, yeah, it’s definitely a much, much easier in a smaller community. And if you find a place kind of like how, you know, you find a nice place that you resonate with as well. You don’t just move to middle of nowhere, anywhere. I think it’s nice if it’s a place you actually do feel attracted to to some extent. Like you mentioned, you know, your surroundings are very beautiful, and that’s one of the important things that you’re in a place that you feel inspired by as well.

Emma Kalff: 58:54

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think. And it’s also like, I think galleries are really important structurally to the art world. And there’s a lot of, like, really awesome galleries that that sell work for artists and, like, help their career. But I think it’s also like, I used to think, Oh, if I just got in, like, if I just got in, like, my dream gallery, then I would be set. But it’s like, you know, you can get in the coolest, most badass gallery with the best reputation that has a ton of traffic in, like, New York or Chicago or something, and they maybe just don’t have chemistry with your work, and I can’t sell it. And it’s like, there’s something to be said for that too, where it’s like, I don’t know that goes back to having irons in the fire and being like, Okay, if this doesn’t work out, I’ll have something else. But I think the search for a gallery can be really long and difficult and like, yeah, just because it’s a gallery that you will idle. Eyes that carries a lot of artists that you admire doesn’t mean that they’re going to be able to work with you and sell your sell your stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:09

Yeah, yeah, that’s a I think that’s very important reality Chuck, because sometimes it’s even local galleries who like, do like much more to like, sell an artist work, because in the end, it isn’t even, like, the notoriety of the gallery. Or, like you said, like, Oh, my dream gallery, because they have my heroes in it. Like, yeah. But like, you know, sometimes it’s those big galleries that might not have enough, like, room in their roster to add another person. Or, like you said, they don’t resonate, or they can be your heroes, but what if your style is entirely different and just doesn’t fit in with a gallery as well. Like, there are so also, so many factors. So I think, yeah, that’s a very honest reality check right there. And I think that that also goes to show that it’s not surprising to be, like, rejected by galleries time and time again for that reason, because like, Oh, we don’t have space. Your work doesn’t resonate. Sometimes it’s even just a question of, like, Oh, you’re too early in your career, or your price range isn’t in our price range. Like, oftentimes it’s like, no, we’re more expensive than that, and we don’t want to carry someone I I’ve heard that that doesn’t have that range yet, right? So there’s, like, a lot that goes in there. And also, you know, the galleries take a risk when they take on an artist, because, especially when it’s an early career artist, like, well, we don’t know if you sold anything yet, or, you know, all these things, because it is dealing with another business. And, I mean, there are a lot of caveats also as well that go with galleries. Like, Okay, what if, like, five years down the line, I decide to switch things up, and I’m no longer really painting the same thing that they decided to take me on for what then, right? That’s like the conversation that then has to begin with the gallery of whether or not you’ll continue with them, they’ll give you the opportunity to try out this new avenue, which is very natural for a lot of artists to, you know, pursue something else, or do you keep painting these things for this one gallery, but maybe pursue a different one for this other subject matter? I mean, there’s a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah. Oh man. But then I also wanted to ask you, do you have any advice for someone out there who’s listening, who wants to become a full time artist?

Emma Kalff: 1:02:29

Yeah, my advice would be to, I think if you spend an hour on your craft, like whatever art that you’re making, spend an hour on the business side. So if you spend a day in the studio, spend the next day, you know, marketing and on your computer and, like, researching that sort of stuff like that has really helped me to make a balance of it, because I think it’s really easy to get sucked into one side or the other, of like, oh, I have to market myself super hard, and then you’re not painting, or you’re not, you know, in the studio, or it can go the other way too, where you’re like, Oh, I just like, don’t want to email Today, and I’m just gonna, but it’s really helped me to have that, like, sort of one to one balance. And I think over time, if you, if you really stick to that, like, it’s almost like a mathematical certainty that you will get somewhere. And like, you diversify your your avenues, and you just keep on chipping away on it, you’ll get somewhere.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:48

Absolutely, yeah, little by little. It’s a little by little stuff. But I love that you emphasize you know that balancing both aspects, because it really is, I mean, very difficult to make it anywhere as an artist, if all you have is paintings and you don’t have the wherewithal to know how to do something with them, it can be a challenge. So yeah, having that balance and even the other way around, some people are, like, heavy on the business, but then not enough on the like, figuring out what they’re even painting side. So it’s very good, very great advice. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?

Emma Kalff: 1:04:29

Yeah, just my newsletter. If you want. I can give you the link to my Patreon. Oh, that’s helpful, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, I try to keep it super affordable, and it’s just, you know, two, two, like, really quick, easy lessons a month that’ll help you with your basic skills as a painter. And, yeah, that show that I have coming up, I’ll give you the link to my newsletter so people can check that out.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:59

Awesome. Perfect. And then where can people see more of your work?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:04

So I’m on Instagram a lot. My handle is Emma, call, K, a, l, F, F, and yeah, I’m represented by a band gallery in Denver, and I also work with milk Moon gallery in Telluride and 33 contemporary in Florida. So those are kind of my three that I’m where I have work.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:32

Yeah, cool. And then, what is your website?

Emma Kalff: 1:05:36

My website is just my name. It’s Emma cough.com,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:40

yeah, awesome, yeah. Well, likewise, yes, and I will add all of your links also. Yeah, cool, sweet. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much, Emma for the conversation. I definitely have a lot of food for thought, as I usually do with my interviews, but this I like the energy was very sobering but also very hopeful. So I appreciate that.

Emma Kalff: 1:06:07

Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:15

Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcasts Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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To end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter, and sculptor living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary-focused art school to then find classical, atelier-based training in Florence. Matthew explains how Old Masters like Titian, Van Dyck, Rembrandt, and Velázquez shaped his devotion to painting from life, Baroque optical effects, and the idea of following their principles—especially observation of nature—rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should “go cold turkey” from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls “art zoos” (museums stripped of original context). Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture—sight-size work from life, historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting, and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character—as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time. Underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes: the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong “Odyssey”, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today, and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces.

Matthew’s FASO site:
matthewjamescollins.com/

Matthew’s Social Media:
instagram.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/
facebook.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/

Matthew’s Articles:
Historical Approaches for Contemporary Portrait Practice
Dancing Faun of Pompeii: Removed From Habitat, Out of Context

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Transcript:

Matthew James Collins: 0:00

This idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then, as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate metaphor of the artist is we’re found in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:28

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights to end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter and sculptor, living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary, focused art school to then find classical Atelier based training in Florence. Matthew explains how old masters like Titian Van Dyck, Rembrandt and Velasquez shaped his devotion to painting, from life Baroque optical effects and the idea of following their principles, especially observation of nature, rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should go cold turkey from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls art zoos, which are museums stripped of original context. Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture side size work from life historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character, as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes, the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong Odyssey, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces. Welcome Matthew to the FASO podcast. How are you today? Hello.

Matthew James Collins: 2:29

No, I’m doing well. Thank you, Laura. Thank you for having me here. And it’s I’m doing well. It’s a sunny day in Florence, so it’s always nice. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Oh, I’m so excited to have you too, because, of course, I also studied in Florence, and it is such a beautiful city, and your work is gorgeous. I adore the poeticism of your sculptures, your portraits, and I love when someone is also trying to maintain this beautiful classical skill that we, you know, the torch that we are trying to maintain as artists, which is, you know the lessons that we’ve learned from our predecessors, you know the old masters, everyone in between who is trying to keep this art alive. So I appreciate that very much.

Matthew James Collins: 3:16

No thank you. And that’s why, when a fellow artist gives you a compliment like that, tell you to not be happy, because that’s we. We paint. Probably we make work, works of art for everybody. But if other artists appreciate that’s a little bit something special in it, in pew, they say in Italian.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:30

Additionally, yes, yeah, totally. And also because, I mean, sometimes it feels like, I don’t know if maybe you relate to this, but sometimes we make our work, whether it’s a sculpture, sculpture or painting, and sometimes we’re like, oh, this is, you know, I really love this. But then when other people see it as well, it feels much more like, ah, validation for all this hard work that I’ve been putting into this craft, and that also is very fulfilling. No, definitely,

Matthew James Collins: 3:59

and we don’t, maybe don’t get that validation as much as we’d like. So people, you spend months working on a work of art, and they go, that’s nice. And you’re like, Oh no, but Oh, that’s nice. The best work of art grows on people with time. I think,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:14

yes, yeah, I agree. And it’s it. I think also, like some works of art are just, they have a bit of, like a more of like a softer voice. They don’t have to, you know, be impactful in your face. Sometimes it could be more of, like a calm, quiet sort of contemplation that I think a lot of people hopefully are leaning more towards today because of the crazy revolution of the internet that’s been happening. So I think there’s going to be more appreciation for your type of work as well. Oh, well, I

Matthew James Collins: 4:49

hope so. Thanks. That’s I even see it in Italy. It’s a even in a culture surrounded by beautiful things, they tend to not be as sensitive to the figurative arts as we would like. That’s the so I do most of my work outside of Italy. In fact, they do in France or Spain or the states.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:07

So yeah, that’s the complexity of the markets as well. Not all markets are receptive to specific types of art. I mean, some countries are definitely much more inclined to prefer abstract other places might prefer, especially like western United States level, Western art, which is more towards realism, plein air is loved, I think almost everywhere, yeah, but yeah. So I think it’s awesome that you’re maintaining this craft alive as well. Yes. And then, before we dive into more, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Matthew James Collins: 5:46

Sure. Well, I’m from a town near Chicago, Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago. Grew up there, and obviously my well, not obviously, my parents are artists too. My father’s an architect, my mother’s a writer. And so at Oak Park is very kind of cultural suburb of Chicago as well, too. And so kind of grew up in a creative environment. And so I’ve always went to the museums. We go to Chicago Art Institute all the time. And that was kind of my place where I was introduced to art in first hand as well, too, which I think is really important as well. And that’s where many people don’t have the option to see art. We see art through images on phones and computer screens now, but it’s not the same as seeing works of art in person as well, too. And so and then. But as we all know, this, art isn’t really in let’s say that puritanical culture the practical nature of American culture, it’s about making a living, and so art isn’t seen as very serious way of making a living. So it’s seen as a luxury instead of a necessity. And so obviously, how I became went and started studying art and then didn’t find the right teachers, and obviously, eventually went to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago after high school, and then got a degree in art history. Because when I was there at the school art institute Chicago, which is a wonderful school, they definitely contemporary, let’s say University educations have a certain kind of now, less so than 3040, years ago, in slant towards a certain ideology of art and what its art should be, and it didn’t quite match with my connection of what I thought art should be, which was what I saw in the museum. So it was contemporary, conceptual and other things as well, too. And it those kind of works didn’t quite speak to me the way I when I went to the Art Institute, and I would see everything from El Greco to Sargent to Rembrandt and those kind of just the way these materials were transformed. In oil and in marble, there’s hearing powers, and then there’s Rodin. There’s other sculptures as well too, which kind of inspired me a lot as well. So those kind of a we’re kind of drawn to those things for their beauty. And then obviously I wanted to try to kind of find out how to make those things as well too. And so that’s where I started working and studying. And then eventually found everyone, we all find our own special way to build our skills as well too, and do other things as well, and following your kind of dreams as well. So I kind of dropped out of the School of the Art Institute in that sense. And then I got a degree in art history so I could learn more about these things that inspired me, these objects, paintings and sculptures and buildings. My father being an architect as well, too. And then started my studies on my own with different painters and sculptors as well. So eventually coming to Florence. So I came to Florence in 1994 and that was before the internet. That’s when you just, I just heard word of mouth studying with the paintress in Chicago, and she suggests, well, you already studied. I taught you all I could. So why don’t you go to Florence and study and so, and then I wrote a couple letters, and then I got a couple responses, and they just had, you know, brochures, which they don’t even have brochures anymore, they send in the mail. And then you just kind of got those, like, made a phone call, and then ended up going to the Cecil atelier in Florence so and I studied there for a couple years painting. So that was a wonderful experience where I learned a lot. Is this idea of painting from life, and this idea of building skills through repetition and building your eye based on 19th century French Atelier system as well, too. So, but Florence, back then was a little bit it’s now this. These schools have grown, and they’ve become very much larger and much more, they say, institutionalized. But back then it was, was a couple artists, and there was Charles Cecil and Daniel graves that were just teaching young artists what they knew. Then there’s Richard Saren as well. And then there’s John Angel. So it was a very kind of an interesting and wonderful environment back then, and it was cheaper, so it was easier to live so but so no, it was a wonderful way to learn, especially in a city full of art. So we know Florence. Is Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci the Renaissance and this kind of rebirth in, let’s say, figurative art that happened in the late 1300s 1400 and that’s where it was kind of a re living that kind of experience in the 90s in Florence as well, too. So it was kind of a wonderful experience. So Oh

Laura Arango Baier: 10:21

yeah, that sounds awesome. I mean, I definitely miss that aspect of Florence, the fact that, you know, you walk down one block and you’ll see beautiful buildings, a sculpture in the corner, just this attention to detail throughout the city that just it’s very magical. I think it’s one of those places that, if anyone has that, if anyone has the luck and privilege to be able to go study there, it’s, you know, one of the best places to really immerse yourself in art and in culture, at least in the medieval or Renaissance, also culture, because that’s Florence, in a nutshell. But yeah. And I love also that you mentioned how things have evolved over the years. Because I’ve also heard many artists who studied, you know, in colleges before the 90s, that they did experience this like, oh, well, I want to learn how to actually, you know, draw or paint, kind of like the old masters, but the emphasis wasn’t quite there at that time. It was much more the contemporary of anything. I have heard a lot of artists say that their teachers would say, oh, realism is dead, which a lot of people thought that at the time. So it’s a little bit unfortunate, but it’s wonderful that you know people like Cecil and you know, the schools that have happened in Florence have been so focused on trying to revive this, well, French academic style of, yeah,

Matthew James Collins: 11:53

and it was then, I guess back then, it wasn’t even even successful, wasn’t it was not as French academic that was The kind of the structure, because of this idea of an atelier, where you’d have a group of students working, and then the head teacher would come by a couple days a week, and then you’d have assistant teachers teaching as well too. So it was kind of learning by doing and so and then obviously, not obviously, of course. But then it was this idea of obviously, that was a system that kind of came from the French Academy, a French the French Atelier system, not the academy in France. So it would be private painters studios in Paris, like Carlos Duran who taught Sargent, they’d have their own Bona had their own painting studios. So it’s definitely more intimate than, let’s say, an academy, and that’s where the teacher could transmit certain ideology, not just ideology, share visions of what art could be. And so it was more, instead of French academic masters, is more ideas of when I was there in the 90s, was more Velasquez, Van Dyke, Rubens Titian. So it was this idea of looking towards the art, of looking at the art around us, and trying to incorporate that into our practice too. And then even Sargent, when I was studying their 90s, their sergeant was always important, but wasn’t really the main focus. Let’s say that’s because I was, I’m inspired by Baroque painting so and when I see I think broke painting is maybe one of the highest points of, let’s say, where the eye and the hand and then the individual expression of the artist kind of came through. So that’s where the broke air for me, is one of the best. So because you can’t have this, because you have the Rembrandt, you have a Velasquez, Van Dyke, Guido Reni, all at the same time, same color, same brushes, same everything. And look at such a wide variety of expression too. We’re in the 19th century. It all came closer together. So I mean, if you look at Rembrandt and you look at Van Dyke, you can’t see two way, grossly different ways of approaching painting, but they’re still wonderfully beautiful in their personal expression. And that’s kind of what we all become artists to express ourselves and find our own personal voice. And so that’s where that’s why the bro kind of really attracted me was this variety of expression,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:04

yes, yes. I totally agree with that. And I think probably in part, why the 19th century and then onward, I would say even, yeah, yeah, 19th century. I feel like one of the biggest shifts, of course, was, you know, the camera happening. Because, you know, like, as we know, Bouguereau did use photographs for his paintings as well. And Bouguereau, of course, came he was much more important in the when I was studying in Italy, he was one of the big names going around. Everyone’s talking about Bouguereau, everyone’s talking about Sargent. By that point, I think Sargent was one of the big ones. But I feel very much like you I, you know, my heroes are definitely, you know, like Titian and Van Dyke. Like Van Dyke especially, who was my first love. Like I saw his work when I took art history, and I was like, Oh, this is incredible. His portrait that he painted when he was 13 years old. How sure. Okay, it’s amazing, but yeah. And actually, what you just mentioned also leads me to a quote that you mentioned in your article on realism today, which I will link also in the show notes for some of our readers or for some people who want to go check it out, I totally recommend it. And the quote is, instead of treat, instead of treading in the Old Masters footsteps, Endeavor only to keep the same road. Do you mind telling us

Matthew James Collins: 15:28

some more? That was from, I think that’s from Reynolds. Joshua, Reynolds, and he’s what they he was the wonderful portrait painter, and he was obviously profoundly inspired by Van Dyke. Van Dyke was his. I think first love is all portrait painters. They should be the first love is Van Dyck. But he and his lectures, his discourses on art, which were lectures towards to his students at the Royal Academy. And he was, in some ways, just echoing what Leonardo said, too. So this is where he was saying, we look to the old masters because they inspire us, but the old masters look towards nature and so, and that’s where art, in many periods of art history, art comes from art and then. But art is very derivative. It just comes from art. So just copying art doesn’t create, let’s say, interesting and profound art as well, too. That’s where he goes, That’s so he said, we should follow the principles that they did by looking at nature and then apply them. Employ the language, which is the visual language of art, in a personal way too, but that’s also being well versed in the Old Masters too. This is where the idea of making the grand tour to see paintings in person, which is that’s where everyone who comes to Florence can has the opportunity to do that. And even Reynolds came to Italy to study wonderful examples of Titian. Because obviously Van Dyke, even Van Dyke, came to Italy to study Titian. So Titian is the godfather of, let’s say, portrait painting and oil painting. He kind of made it all. He was the first he did, the first full length portrait. He did portraits life size. He did lots of things that we all kind of take for granted, but he kind of worked those problems up. Because in the end, we make objects, and we need to figure out how to make those things. And that’s the that’s where working with another artist and having a direct dialog with someone who’s more experience is we try to do it on ourselves, but you can, but it’s it’s hard. That’s where creating dialog with other artists is important at every stage of your life. Then that’s where, because of art is lonely, but also in just learning and learning how to do things is and we as artists, we love to talk shops, no colors, brushes, all these other things as well too. So, but he was also even Leonardo says nature is the true Master too. So Leonardo talks about and that goes back to Neil Leonardo’s teacher, Verrocchio, and Andrea Verrocchio is a really important, Pivotal artist for the Renaissance, because he was the one that almost not single handedly, but started drawing from life in the studio. So instead of just copying art from the past and then just redoing it a little bit more refined, like that’s what the late Gothic and international Gothic style is. It was this idea of looking towards nature. They were looking at classical works, like classical sculptures. That’s what influenced them. But then they also started looking towards nature as well too. So it was in verocchio studio where they started doing life studies of each other, drapery studies. And so that’s where Leonardo, writing that down in his notebooks kind of transformed how we see art as well, too, because we’re kind of following it as well. That’s we see the the true form of things too. Because obviously when we look at art and look at, let’s say classical art, I mean in Greek and Roman art, it is this beautiful, naturalistic expression of the human figure, but it is kind of a It’s not stylized, but there’s a way they made them too. So, but in just copying the surface of what those sculptures are, we don’t understand the principles that the artists use to create and conceive them and then express something as well, too. And so that’s kind of, I think that’s lifelong journey for let’s say you want to say classical artist is to try to understand the language, and then in understanding the language, which is proportion and how different things relate to each other, then express that in our, let’s say, chosen material.

Laura Arango Baier: 19:10

So, yes, and that is a lot. It is so much because, you know, we look towards the old masters because they it’s almost like they have this. And I think a lot of students also see it as like, oh, they have the magic formula. But of course, their magic formula is literally just experience and observations, extreme observation of nature. But even then, you know, you can, like you said, there’s nothing better than going to a real painting and observing it and just seeing how did this painter describe this person, or describe the shape of their cheek, or describe how the hands were, which Van Dyck, of course, has his very specific hands from his very specific hand model. So there. Are. It’s like, it’s almost like writing, right, where an author might describe a character in a particular way, or a scene in a particular way, and another one would do it in a different way. But you’re still trying to decipher, ah, what are they looking at? What are they gathering from this image that they’re, you know, visualizing, like, what is that? And then from there, you kind of have to figure it out on your own as well, through, like you said, practice process, observation and repeat and and then figuring out, okay, what are the magic proportions that make something look beautiful? Because then that’s the next thing. So it’s such a deep well of knowledge that you gain as an artist, and it feels like it never ends. You know?

Matthew James Collins: 20:47

No, definitely. And that’s where I guess. And then also the figurative adds the idea of subject matter and other things as well too. And then in addition, it’s the fluency of the material becomes the most important thing. And it’s certainly not most important thing. It’s a it’s how you use your materials as well too. So if you look at Rembrandt, how he created, how paint becomes something more. It becomes life, but it becomes these beautiful colors and impastos, and they all kind of melt together. And even Van Dyck does it as well, too, in a more subtle and delicate way, too. So it’s the fluency of the language using certain materials. And the greatest artists always had that kind of connection with their materials as well, too. And that’s where the I guess, we tend to specialize depending on what we do, because it takes a while to become fluent in these materials and then expand and then fluent, then in terms of the language as well, too. So Titian kind of described paintings as poems. I’d see that as well. I think that’s maybe the perfect way, because they’re not, we’re not writing novels. When things become a little bit too narrative in a painting, it becomes, it’s not living to its full potential. And so, and then it’s how you say something is as important as what you’re saying. And that’s what makes, I think, painting so suggestive and eternal in a certain way.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:59

So, yeah, and that also reminds me of that rule that even the writing has, which is, show, don’t tell. And it’s so similar in painting as well. Because, of course, you can, you can go the Audubon style and like, really get into the nitty gritty of painting something exactly as it is, or you can find a way to use, like you said, your knowledge of medium, to describe it in a more interpretive way that gets closer to your own perception of this thing, while also maintaining the integrity of what it is which is such a challenging little area to reach. You know,

Matthew James Collins: 22:40

yeah, and that’s where, I guess the optical comes out in the broker the optical. So this idea of look at a Velazquez and then the Bruce Lee Sergeant looks at that as well, our Frans halls and the and even Rembrandt as well too. We’re up close. These paintings all kind of come together. They’re just these globs of different color pigments on a canvas with different thicknesses and translucencies, but then you step back and they become something more than what they they seem to be up close. And so we see there’s the kind of the the idea of distance giving order to chaos and expression as well too. And I think that’s a very strong, powerful metaphor that goes through all the arts as well too. That’s it. And it’s at this for art can be also there it’s making the metaphor with music is very valid as well, too, this idea of notes and then how they come together to create something much more rich and deep than just the notes themselves, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:31

Yes, yeah. And then the order of the notes also provides mood, definitely, you know, yeah, whether you have, like, you know, the sad or happy music, which is minor and major. But yeah, it’s exactly that I feel like with painting, we have also such a wide range as well of things to play with with like color value, focus, contrast edges, which is it can it can be a lot, which I think is also why it’s so wonderful to see all the different ways that artists have interpreted the same medium. I think what’s interesting as well, because you brought up, you know, the way that the Baroque were interpreting the optical I find also interesting that today we are, we’ve been so influenced by the camera, right? I mean, of course, it started in the 1860s but we are even more so influenced by the camera because now it’s so readily accessible to everyone from their phone. So I have a couple questions attached to that. So if someone were to want to learn from the, you know, old masters, or try to learn to paint the traditional way? How would you say that they should completely reset their brain away from the camera?

Matthew James Collins: 24:49

Ah, that’s a that’s a great question, and that’s the response to that, because becoming more and more difficult to do that. That meaning. So when I was I would say the best way to just kind of go cold turkey and not look at images and start painting from life, and just paint directly from life and then doing so what happens is the familiarity painting from life every day. And I had the blessing to be able to do that while I was here in Florence, in my own work as well too, is when you just when we start looking at something long enough, and that’s the problem, we don’t have enough time anymore, right? We have all these things. We’re always rushing from one thing to another, looking at something long enough, you’ll see what we see in cameras is not what we see in real life, and that’s where people that go through the training here, and as you’ve done as well, too, you can see the human eye works differently, and that’s what’s and again, what we’re trying to do as artists, I think we all are, and only speak for myself, but we’re trying to speak to someone standing in front of our work who’s looking at it with their eyes too. And I think that’s a very so to remove the filters of the camera, move the filters of other thing, then you can that’s where the Baroque era, where they’re very sensitive how people perceive their works, and that’s why it became optical. I want to have that kind of sort of visceral experience in front of a picture as well, too. Even though we are influenced by we are influenced by photography, people are convinced the distortions they see in cameras are how we see the world, but that’s not how it is so. So this is that’s a tough question, can you eliminate the idea the photograph altogether? Maybe not. Maybe you can’t. And that even today is what kids are growing up, looking at little screens. Because obviously, in the 90s, we had a television, but you didn’t have a screen in front. You had a computer screen. Eventually there was no internet, so you had books. We looked at a lot of books, but that was already a camera looking at a picture, taking a photograph, but it was always not quite as distorted. The cameras weren’t as, let’s say, highly developed, where everything can be in the same focus as they are today, too. So technology is kind of divorcing us from a certain sense of reality, which I think is a bit of a shame. So even how we how you I mean, it’s wonderful we can talk right now, because look at your 1000 miles away. I’m right here, and we can still talk. But again, it’s not the same as seeing someone in person talking to someone in person. That’s this, and I think that’s even more so with experiencing a great work of art. And that’s where I’m getting a degree in art history in Chicago, and then living in Chicago as well too, where there’s obviously beautiful homes, beautiful places, but it’s a art wasn’t quite as central to, let’s say, say, a contemporary American way of living in my house, I was lucky. My parents had oil paintings and still lives, and they collected prints and everything as well too, but most people didn’t. And so to see art, you had to go to a museum. So this idea of an esthetic experience was confined to museums, and that’s very interesting idea as well. So, and this is where, again, coming to Florence, being able to see art in situ, because I studied everything in Slides, in art history, but then seeing in person, it was completely different. And it was almost and I guess a good example is, everyone studies in art history, the raft of Medusa by General com, no and, but when you see it in person, it’s, it’s it’s not, it’s like you never seen it before. It’s impressive when you see it that big in your book, or I see it on a screen, but when you see it in person, it’s a whole different, visceral experience. And that’s the power of art too. And you see that in Florence with the statues and the paintings and the press goes on the walls. And that’s which I would encourage, that’s experiencing things in person will help us overcome this idea the photograph as well, too, because we’re seeing things on small screens all the time.

Laura Arango Baier: 28:42

So yes, yeah, and I have a funny story about the raft of Medusa, because when I first saw it at the louver, it was bigger than my apartment in Italy. I can believe that, yeah, it’s just such a massive painting. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t imagine it, of course, from a tiny image. And when you see it, it is, I was just, this is literally bigger than the layout of my tiny apartment in Florence. And it is amazing to imagine, you know, someone working on this painting, you know, setting up the models and setting up the setting to reference from. It’s, it’s magical, because there’s just so much in the process. There’s so much time that goes into making something well, you know, just just getting it done well. And the other crazy thing that I often think about is the fact that as artists, we gain these skills that are already extremely challenging and difficult to gain, and then when you have to apply them, you’re already at the base level of like, yeah, you have the basics. Now you have to develop that even more. It feels like this never ending tantalizing mountain that you just have to keep climbing when you think you’ve read. The peak. You’re like, nope, now it’s now it’s time to actually apply these insane principles that I’ve learned into something great. And I mean, it doesn’t even have to be like, as insane as the Raft of the Medusa, because, of course, that’s a very ambitious painting. But there’s also, I think, a necessity for people to continue to make ambitious paintings anyway, because it’s inspiring to humanity. I mean, that painting has been around for a very, very long time, and it will continue to, hopefully, to be around and inspire more people to paint a painting bigger than their apartment,

Matthew James Collins: 30:37

and then the humanity in it, and then the drama, and then, and then, that’s where Italy is also a wonderful example. I mean, this Sistine Chapel by Michelangelo. So that’s another, and it’s just one of the many examples of decorative wall painting where the decorative kind of used in a derogatory term. But it’s actually it used to be seen as the highest form of painting is these large scale figure paintings, because they do kind of transform how we live in the environment which we’re observing them because we’re observing them from life, and they kind of surround us and envelop us too. So, and that’s where it can really end. That’s even, I guess, Rubens even wrote an essay on the the sublimity of scale, and so, so making things bigger. So that’s why we all talk about everyone looks at Rubens and thinks all these over exaggerated curves and other things as well too. Making things larger changes how we perceive them. So even the raft of Medusa is kind of seems cartoony, but you see it in person, it doesn’t seem cartoony at all. It seems just right. That’s those are lessons you do. You can only learn by doing, and unfortunately, in contemporary, well in, probably even before in, let’s say, an atelier system, or in any sort of learning academic school setting, it’s difficult to set up those kind of projects and do those things too. So it’s something you learn the skills. Then you just kind of have to jump in and do them, though, and you learn on the on the job.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:01

So, yeah, yeah. And, and also have some sort of economic support on the side so that you can afford to do it. Because that’s the other really tough part of like, Oh, I really want to, you know, make this incredible thing you kind of have to live below your means. And also, you know, be able to manage around economically, so that you can do it, unless someone out there is lucky enough to be wealthy and can just dedicate themselves to it, which more power to them. I hope they they can really enjoy that. But yeah, for the rest of us, it’s, it really feels like a labor of love that we just have to, like, oh, you really want to do this. Okay, you got to find ways to you will find a way to figure it out. Hopefully. Yeah, and then I find it interesting too, because the Reynolds quote also that we mentioned earlier, it’s a it’s one of those. It touches on one of the topics that I think a lot of artists think about, a lot of our listeners think about, which is the idea of the artistic voice. And you also mentioned it, how, like, you know, Van Dyke has had his way of painting with the same exact, exact pigments as Rembrandt, same exact pigments as many of the surrounding painters who were working at the time, and yet you can distinguish them personally. You know, for you, how, what? How was it? How long did you did it take for you to develop your own artistic voice?

Matthew James Collins: 33:26

Well, that’s a maybe. It’s a question. It’s a to respond to the question. It’s an answer in evolution, because we’re constantly refining and finding our voice as well too. So our voice is kind of limited to the skills that we can to use to express it, but it’s also, but it’s in, let’s say, enlarged by the culture we have behind our skills too. So I think there’s this combination between we have we’re, you can say we’re given a certain set of talent, or we build a certain set of skills to illustrate our ideas or to express them mechanically through painting or sculpting or drawing. And that’s what painting is, just drawing and color and then. But we it’s the culture behind them that enlarges them as well too. So it’s this kind of balance in between. And so the voice is everything we kind of absorb. That’s your culture, and that’s where even a artist, I think even Reynolds said, again, he said that most, the biggest crime for an artist was to be uncultured. He said, There’s a you can have all the skills in the world, but if you have no culture, and even he was a had as the hierarchy of the you know, he was a portrait painter, but he saw this idea as Dec figurative, decorative painting as being the top as well, too. But he’s like, having a culture behind you is one of the most important things for developing your own voice, I think, because then it’s just as we look at look Rembrandt, and we look at Van Dyke and we look at Titian, they kind of we they are. They become our men. Mentors, in addition to our mentors that teach us how to hold a brush and mix the color, and then through those two combinations together, something comes out as well too. So that’s kind of what I think it’s this kind of mix between these ideas as well and so but obviously, as we already mentioned before, it is just repetition and work too. And this is where I think a lot of people, there’s a kind of this idea is the art, and that’s especially in contemporary artists. The artist sits down, it’s inspired, and throws paint on a canvas, and that’s the work of art. But obviously we have something more, let’s say sophisticated, not so sophisticated, a little bit more subtle and maybe profound. And we’re searching for something ourselves, too. And so in the act of painting, we find who we are, and we find our personal voice as well. So but not looking at other paintings, that’s I see a lot of art students that they don’t they’re curious about expressing themselves, but they’re not curious about art. And I think if you all the thing, all the artists the past, we just already, we previously mentioned, without exception, they were all extremely curious about art. They and then, for one example is they all came to Italy, except for Rembrandt. Rembrandt didn’t come to Italy, but all the paintings went through Amsterdam. So he saw plenty of Italian art, but they were certainly there’s a curiosity that I think that combines all of us of looking towards and we look at Leonardo, he’s looking at art. But he says, Look, it’s a nature, this idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate, uh, metaphor of the artist is, we’re kind in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our, our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there. And so, so you never quite know your first your voice, and I guess. And I also think in today’s contemporary post World War Two art kind of, let’s say organization of culture is and that some of I had to paint, the painter in Chicago told me he’s like, you know how you become a painter? You get him at first, you get a master’s degree, you paint the same picture 25 times, and you get an art critic, and then you get a show, and then you move forward. And it’s this idea of kind of goes into consumerism and branding yourself. And so that’s, I think, the poetic, obviously, the poetic, I think, should take precedent over developing a style. That’s the whatever happens, happens. You just paint, if it’s beautiful, that you’re in the right direction. That’s another thing that. That’s what impressed me about Baroque artists, especially as well, too. You look at all of them and they went to such a each artist goes through a profound change artistically, from when they started and when they ended and so and wasn’t a planned evolution towards making things more abstract. Towards the end, they were thinking about other things, but they definitely if you look at early Van Dyke and late Van Dyke is two different paintings. You look at early Rembrandt, late Rembrandt is two different painters, almost. So today they wouldn’t be wrecked they you’re discouraged from doing that, because then you don’t have a and Velasquez is probably the best one. He’s he started a caravaggisti, super hard drawn, very beautiful, and then he ended somewhere completely different. And I think that’s Titian did the same thing. So this is where, unfortunately, don’t my advice is, don’t let, let’s say these kind of external but you should do what you want. But I don’t want these external pressures to force me to paint something or paint in a way that that’s not what I’m looking for.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:49

So, yeah, so you’re totally in agreement. Yeah, there’s just, there’s something. It’s interesting. Because, like you said, you know, trying to box yourself into because I feel like, you know, having a voice and having a style aren’t necessarily the same thing, since, I mean, you can make up a style and then, oh, I’m recognized as the person who paints eyes, or the person who paints this very specific thing. And I think the way that we develop as humans is so contrary to creating a product, right? Like we just a product implies something that rarely evolves or stays very much the same throughout. And it’s very like, you like how galleries would be like, Oh, you get exactly what we expect every time, right? Because it sells. But that’s not how humans naturally function, right? We evolve, we learn, we change. That’s how it works for most of us. And then, yeah, maybe there are some painters out there who are very happy painting the same thing over and over. There’s no hate to them, of course. But. But not all of us, you know, have that luck, right where, oh, maybe I feel like, yeah, I’ve painted enough sunsets, but I want to try this other thing, right? And it’s usually curiosity that really pulls you out, and then, oh, hopefully my gallery is okay with this, and they don’t drop me, or hopefully my gallery allows me to have the permission to explore and experiment, right? It can feel very, like I said, very contrary to how we develop as humans throughout life, yeah, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 40:36

I think that’s, that’s normal, and that’s because it, there’s kind of a and, but it’s also this idea of in contemporary world, this idea of franchising, having the same object and same idea, and this is where hopefully things will change. Whereas a work of art is an object and it is beautiful and it doesn’t have to be, it can be just a pretty still life, and it can live. Works of art can exist on so many different levels, which that’s what makes them so wonderful, and that’s and all the great works of art can function and be perceived on so many different levels, but that shouldn’t the artist does. We don’t want to be limited by the most base levels. Either. We’re always looking for something that’s a little bit more profound, and then in those simple that’s that we were talking about these contradictions in art, the in the most simple things, we find the most complex answers, and vice versa too. And so it’s just how many love stories have been written, but Romeo and Juliet, when you seen before, it’s, it doesn’t disappoint, and it’s still, it’s still profound and beautiful. That’s so it’s how it’s said as well, too, in the in the different the the verse is actually magical. So it’s and that’s goes with all the great arts as well. So the portrait is just the face, but again, it’s so much more when you put in the great artists and so and then as we, as artists, we want to get better. So we’re kind of, we have our own personal journey and our own personal journey. If we have the right culture and a good training, we can make some very beautiful things, and then we grow as well too. So that’s the and that’s kind of the which is good and but obviously, when we it’s which is good, but also, we also we also have to survive and other things as well doing. We also want to communicate to a and transmit something that I think the world needs as well. So this is where, again, painting from life, painting beautiful porches, painting things that aren’t photographic, is something I think the world kind of needs now, because we’re also doing things as well. So it’s important to do those ideas. And so, but it’s, it’s actually an act of rebellion in a certain sense, because it doesn’t make much sense monetarily, doesn’t make much sense financially, it doesn’t make much sense in terms of the same mainstream culture as well, too, and so, but again, that’s why I think maybe it’s so important. So at

Laura Arango Baier: 42:58

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But, yeah, there’s something really interesting about how paintings they take so long they take, you know, a priceless amount of time, right? Like you can’t really put a price on the experience and the lived life that you have to gain to paint something like the Raft of the Medusa, for example. That’s, you know, a price that no one could be really able to pay back. And I find that, you know, it is the antithesis of, you know, how. A lot of products are sold today. You know, they’re made to be used and discarded, or used and then broken after a certain amount of time, but paintings, they don’t really fall under that category. So I have hopes that, you know, we will remember that as humanity, that what will remain is the beautiful, handcrafted aspect of us. You know what it means to be a human, but yeah, and then the other thing that I think will always Outlast is the portrait, because it is especially like you had mentioned in one of your articles, that it is life size portraiture that is some of the most impactful to witness, because it it, it does have this uncanny feeling of you’re being observed. You’re being you know, you’re connecting with someone who’s long gone. Can you tell us a little bit about your own process with creating a portrait, and what parts of that process you recommend for people to also do so that they can improve their portraiture?

Matthew James Collins: 46:09

Oh, well, yeah, there’s that, well, there’s way, any different ways of creating portraits. And then I way that I was taught, it says so is the the site size method as well, too, which has kind of been used for lots of different applications, but it was primarily used as a portrait method to create portraits from life very quickly. And so this is where you have them canvas, right next to the side of the model. You stand back at a distance, which would be a viewing distance, which was very logical back in the Renaissance and onwards, because you have your viewers looking at the painting so and so, you could identify different kind of problems as well, in terms of proportion and drawing as well too. And so Van Dyke used the variation on that where he would occasionally put the canvas alongside and then bring the canvas back up to him as well, too. But it’s this idea of using distance to see proportions. And that’s where, just like in everything in life, the further back you get from something and you can see whether it works. And that’s where even Leonardo talks about this idea of viewing distance too. And so I kind of use this method to do life size portraiture, where you just set up the canvas alongside you stand back, and then by observing both your image and the model to scale. You can see, you can you can develop the shapes very quickly and very accurately too. So, but obviously there’s limitations, because it’s can only be, it’s a, you know, the pose has to be one viewing point. You can’t models in different, interesting dynamic poses as well, too. So that’s the beginning point as well. So this is where you can also, as I paint as well, too. Obviously, when you’re trying to learn, you have to have the model sit still, but you always want to discuss, talk with people. And then you can actually, let’s say, Delve and pull out their personality as you observe them over a long period of time too. So this is where I tend to paint portraits from life, pretty much all. And so where people pose, and they pose for several hours, and then I just kind of have a conversation, paint them. And then you, as you observe people, you see who they are. So this is where, again, working from references. It’s two dimensional, two dimensional. Three to two dimension. This three dimension observing something from life and then creating something in two dimensions, not just copying, it’s creating. And so that’s, I think, a very important opportunity, which, obviously it’s actually, it’s actually difficult to try to find people to pose, or people who are willing to pose, but once they do start posing, it’s actually quite pleasant and nice as well, too. It’s, it’s an, it’s a, not a torturous experience, so,

Laura Arango Baier: 48:42

yeah, yeah. I mean, it shouldn’t be, otherwise they won’t do it again. And then you have a half started painting, yeah, which kind of sucks, yeah.

Matthew James Collins: 48:51

And then using, I use kind of a historical palette too. So because I was just inspired by the past, so you trying to use the same, I would retry to recreate the palette of what Van Dyke would use, or the British school, or even eg LeBron. And so what’s nice about the feet seat, which is the art gallery here, the gallery the feet see here in Florence, they have a self portrait section of all these artists. And they all, you know, they’re all holding their palettes, and you can see all the colors are using. So you go there not just to appreciate their their wonderful visions of themselves, these artists of the past, but you can see exactly their kind of tools of the trade as well, too. VG Lebrun, Elizabeth. VG Lebrun is one of the best portrait painters the 18th century, and she has a fantastic one self portrait in the Uffizi with all the colors she uses and how they organize them. So I did a lot of research art historically on different approaches to creating portraits as well too. And that was a really formative experience as well, too. And in addition to copying things as well. So I cop, I spent two years copying in the Art Institute when I was a student there as well, too. So this idea of copying, but also reading first person sources to try to find out the kind of mediums they use, the kind of oils they use. Used, and again, I would agree with you, if there’s no like magic medium, but trying different things out and trying to kind of understand what kind of that’s been. Finding Your voice is finding your technique. And finding your technique is experiment, experimenting with different materials where you can get the most beautiful image you can using the materials that are available to you by choice too. You choose. So some people paint thickly, some people paint thinly. I think the best painters do both. So you do so, and that’s a and then it’s just painting from life. And then if you can’t have the time to be able to work on things too. Again, this is where we see things through social media now. And then you see these. It seems like instantaneous works of art, but it takes, it takes a long time to make a nice portrait too, and again, and it’s easy, and that’s where we mentioned earlier about the workshop culture too. Is this idea, I can paint a portrait in two sittings. I can paint a portrait in a sitting. Well, that’s usually not the best portraits, either. So this idea of spending time and then finishing a painting takes a lot longer than starting one, and that’s what’s kind of that’s where the art and the beauty comes in as well, too. So in the general studio practice, I use pretty much what a lot of painters use today in terms of painting from life, but I think distance is really important, being able to stand back and seeing things from a distance. And obviously, because I’m going for optical ideas, but I think that’s also in terms of practical sense that even Leonardo talks about standing back and then using a mirror to see your shapes. BG, Lebrun talks about it. So there’s plenty of sources out there how to improve your portrait painting, but again, it’s again, the more you observe from life, the more you see things that you would not see in a photograph, too. And you see atmosphere through edges. You see create impact through accents and highlights and dark accents as well, too. And so this is where this idea of having the time to start creating paintings from life, especially having people pose, is a really important, I think idea observing people under natural light, if possible, or diffused light, so we can see those edges as well too. So again, in my practice, I try to create in nature what I want to achieve in my painting. So using natural soft lighting, using a certain kind of pose, organizing the lighting the way I want to and so then, in addition to that, using a knowledge of construction to explain the form which is not quite obvious, or to emphasize certain things as well, too, that should have a psychological impact at the end, and a mode of impact as well. So, so I say, yeah, so it’s uh, but also designing things too. You also designing the portrait, I think is the most important thing. So this is where, that’s where looking at paintings will help you make a better portraits and looking and so. And I guess one of the Van Dyke is fantastic, is a and he uses a variety of poses as well too. But no one is quite as, let’s say, creative in poses, as Sergeant. Sergeant. If you look at sergeant, he creates. He has so many different poses and dynamic poses. They tend it is inspiring to see his portraiture and how he can play spaces and put lightings on them to create something that’s quite that brings out the personality of the person.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:16

Yes, yeah. And that also just reminded me, because you mentioned, you know, looking at other painters. That reminds me also of the quote, you know, there’s nothing new under the sun, sure. So there’s no need to reinvent the wheel and try to come up with things when it was probably already done by an old master or another painter, and you can observe how they did it. And you know, you know, create something derivative of that, or try to understand the portrait that you’re doing while also observing one in a similar situation, which is something that I was doing. You know, when I was trying to teach myself some more portraiture outside of class, I would try to find a painting that was in a similar pose to one that I wanted to paint, and then that way, it’s a lot easier to like look at how this specific painter described the cheekbone, or how they describe the shadow under the eye, in the in the, you know, beneath the eyebrows, or the shadow beneath the nose, how they described the chroma of the nostrils or the area around the nostrils. Okay, like, how did they do that? How do they do this without exaggerating? Because that’s the other very typical thing that I think we all go through when we’re starting out, is we tend to we see color and we just exaggerate it, which is also something you learn over time, that gray is your best friend, or low chroma versions, or lower Chroma versions of most colors are much, much nicer to the eye and having little pops here and there. But of course, you learn this through observation and through looking at the old masters and just trying it a million times as well.

Matthew James Collins: 54:59

No, I. I agree. I think that’s where the it’s that is kind of contemporary paint is where you just over hit the color, and then you have to knock it down where it was in the past. It was a little bit. It was the opposite, where you have dead coloring, and then you build up to that. And then when you start looking at the paintings, and I mean, when you see a Titian in real life, it doesn’t disappoint in terms of color, and that’s where, and that’s and Van Dyke especially, that’s where. So these, there’s a sensitivity to color which is quite much more harmonious than that’s even a Monet or you go to late Impressionist paintings well too. There’s a subtlety in those colors which are quite admirable. And then also colorful too. They’re not, they don’t they’re not boring. And so this is where. And again, I would, I think that’s a great advice, too. And I did the same thing. You always want your learning. You kind of find heroes, and you’re kind of development, and you say, Oh, gee, Van Dyke, set up a model like this. I’m gonna set up a model like this and see what happens. And so that think that’s the perfect way to start entering as because we as artists, we have to do it so we understand it. Just talking about is one that is not enough. So it’s in creating something, then we can understand all the intricacies of the construction and application and other things as well too. And at the same time, understand the visual sensibility and language as well too. So in copying old master pictures, I was copying them to understand technique, but then also you become more sensitive to the visual language as well, too. So the only thing that’s new under the sun is us. No, there’s never been you or me before, and we’re unique. And so when we look at the world around us and bring things in, and then we kind of put something out, it becomes unique if we are, I think, honestly and sincere, sincerely using the visual language to its fullest, and that’s where, and that’s where our own personal interests and formations and what you do helps develop our culture. And that’s where the culture comes to the voice, and that’s where it comes out as well, as well. So we kind of, that’s what we need to do. So we don’t, and that’s, again, it is this idea of in contemporary art culture too. It’s this like, Oh, his innovative technique of doing this. And that’s very it’s like, you have to create, like, a brand new, improved formula. It’s like, well, no, I’m not making a new laundry detergent. I’m just, I’m trying to make a beautiful painting. So, and this is where we just use the same these. We don’t have to create something new, but what we create is new, and that’s where, again, what we’re doing is reinforcing how special we are as individuals, instead of just a part of an economic system or part of a commercial system, which we are because we have to, that’s how the world works. But again, I think we’re so much more, and that’s why art is important. It goes back to that we’re trying to through our personal expression of ourselves, people can experience their individuality, and that’s maybe what art should be doing as well, too.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:54

Yes, that is very, very inspiring. Because, of course, it goes from like, okay, we’re part of this collective thing, but then we’re also, like this tiny piece of it, kind of like, you know, like a loop, you know, like you need the collective to individuate. Because, like Alan Watts, one of my favorite philosophers, he used to say that finding yourself or like, you know, finding out who you are is very difficult. You can only do it through the other because it’s like trying to touch the tip of your finger with the same tip. It’s Wow. You can’t really do that. So exploring the solve has to be through also observing your surroundings and participating, like you said, like in culture, and learning about it and learning about, okay, well, this isn’t what I am, but this might be what I think I am. And then, you know, that’s why I think, also, like you said earlier, that the practice of painting is truly the practice of finding out who you are, which that’s a whole, whole other, very deep, deep well, that you just kind of experience as you do it as well. But yeah, and then I also wanted to ask you, because you also sent me another very interesting article, which I link, and you talk about the museums being almost like an art Zoo. Do you mind elaborating a little bit

Matthew James Collins: 59:23

on that? Sure, yeah, because I did an article for the epic times, which is a new was it New York newspaper, and it was a series called Art speak. So I wrote a series of articles. They asked me about a work, about individual works of art, and then just talk about them. And so in that article, where I talked about art zoos. It was really about art in context. And so it was the fawn, the dancing fawn of Pompe, which is this beautiful little bronze sculpture that’s in the archeological museum there, and so and so it was just talking about that sculpture in particular. But then again, it kind of relates to my whole experience of growing up. In the Midwest, which was in Chicago, being a cultural city, and living in Oak Park, which is a cultivated sort of suburb, and having an artistic family, snuts, and then having a reference point for a big, let’s say important art was the museum too. And so you go there it goes on this esthetic experience that would be reserved for the museum. But then, as you you can see, and so in that article, I was trying to explore the importance of context for what works of art. So a lot of the works we go to museums now, and museums were kind of a phenomenon that kind of grew at 18th century, 19th century, especially the Archeological Museum in Naples. And what kind of really struck me as that, because it’s a wonderful little sculpture that was in a in one of the houses of Pompe, and it was a garden sculpture. But if you look at it, it’s just a masterpiece and an anatomy and this little pond that’s dancing, and so a beautiful sculpture. And what’s interesting Kenneth Clark, sir. Kenneth Clark, in his book The nude, talks about and he kind of points it out as being a an example of the static and the deadness of classical sculpture in terms of kind of something frozen in time, and talking about that in his overall arc of explaining the nude, the elevation of the evolution of the nude in Western Art, and that kind of something hit me is that didn’t quite explain what that sculpture was. Because if you go to Pompeii and you see these houses which were highly decorated with frescoes everywhere, and then there, obviously these houses were like full of people. And this is where, living in Italy, there’s a more there’s a very active social life. And then everything’s kind of, you go into churches, they’re packed with decoration. There’s living in Florence. You see, there’s art everywhere. Art was a in the ancient world, it was as well, too. Art was an integral part of civic life, private life and sacred life, and everywhere. So it was. Art wasn’t something reserved for a museum and so and so talking about and when you look at the fawn in the museum, the archeological museum Naples, you can kind of see what he was saying wasn’t completely wrong. It’s kind of frozen into a little, little fawn frozen in a glass box. But if you imagine in the middle of a fountain with the colorful frescoes and the music and people living their lives around it, then it’s not it’s not frozen anymore. It’s living. And that’s where and a lot of the art we see in museums, most of almost 90 more than 90% was meant to be seen in houses or churches or civic buildings, and they had an other life. And so this is when you see something that’s natural habitat. That’s when you can truly understand what the work of art is, and you can comment on it so and then when you see it in that sense, that’s the fawn isn’t frozen, but it’s dancing within this kind of the life of a house, of a household with families and children and colorful walls and other things as well too, and water and sun and and gardens. And that’s that’s where I did when you go to a museum and they are and I love museums, and I spent too much time, not too much time. You never spend much time. And I love going to museums because, like visiting friends, but you can see that there. When you see altar pieces, you see other paintings. They weren’t meant to be there. They were meant to be somewhere else. And so in my kind of quest to try to figure out, why do those pictures look the way they did? You kind of also have to understand the context in which they were made. And so when we look at when talking this again, it goes back to Baroque painting, when they were thinking about the optical effects. It wasn’t because it was supposed to be in some little room. It was supposed to be in a big room. They usually artists would design things, and they had to be maybe the blessing, the benefit, but also the challenge to design things on commissions for specific spaces. And they took that into consideration when they were creating those works of art. So I was kind of, I’m curious of why would certain pictures be a certain way? Because they would optically correct them so they could look certain, look in a certain way, in a certain wall, on a certain certain lighting as well too, and that’s very obvious in religious paintings as well. So we see, when you see sacred art, you know, paintings in museums, they weren’t meant to be there. They’re meant to be in other spaces. So, and that’s kind of a, I think, a missing link in a lot of art today is we don’t make it for a specific context. And that’s not that’s that’s beyond our control. So unfortunately, so that’s where I kind of see them as art zoos. They see these poor paintings kind of stuck there, where they were meant to be in someone’s home, or meant to be they meant to be lived with every day. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s kind of like a world that’s my life mission is we just need more art on everybody’s walls and everyone’s house, so you can you live with art every day. And I think that’s another lesson of being a blessing. Living in Italy is you see that everywhere art, especially Florence, and even more so than other cities, Florence, there’s art everywhere. And so everywhere, and that’s where it’s on the street corners and the adic was these kind of little altar pieces on every corner. There’s a Madonna and child or a saint, there’s statues, there’s and then there’s. Decorated doorways. There’s door knockers. And so every part of our life is accompanied by art. And so we don’t have to go visit. And so when you have to go visit something that’s in a little room where it’s not supposed to be, that’s kind of sad, I think it’s kind of that’s why it becomes a zoo, because we don’t quite understand what they are. You don’t see seeing a tiger in a zoo is not like seeing a Tiger in the Jungle, and then you understand why the tiger is the way it is, because it’s in the jungle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:29

So, yeah, I love that. Because, like you said, you know, like, Art has always been almost like an active participant in life, and to separate it from its context. It does, it does deaden it a little bit. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of sad to experience it that way. Like, imagine if the ecstasy of st Teresa was outside of the original church, where it is like, Oh, wow, this is an amazing sculpture. But at the same time, like, you push that button, the light turns on, and you’re like, in this amazing experience of a sculpture that is meant to inspire people.

Matthew James Collins: 1:06:15

Yeah, you’re not getting the whole experience either. So if they take the out of where it’s supposed to be. It’s still a beautiful sculpture, but then it’s we’re missing something, and then it becomes something. Then it becomes something. It’s almost not. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s where, how do we solve that? I don’t know, but I was lucky, because I was commissioned to do a couple big paintings for stairwells in a school in North Dakota for a classical school. So I did the decoration of independence, and then I did the foundation of Rome. And that was a wonderful experience, because then I was able to kind of put into practice this idea of using optical taking the view lines where the pictures are seen, and then adjust the the adjust the perspective on the figures, or just this perspective on the viewpoint, so that we could design the picture in terms that how it seemed from a variety of viewpoints too. And that’s another thing where you, when we look at paintings as well, we kind of assume you’re supposed to see just from the front, from the side, but paintings are meant to be seen from all different kinds of angles too. I don’t know I get, I don’t have you. When you go to museums, it’s very kind of fun to look at paintings obliquely and looking slightly from the angle. And you can see how it changes the values and the colors as well too. So it’s this idea of discovery as well. Pictures as well. You see something from far away, and then you come brings you close to it as well, too. So this is where experiencing works of art in person, there’s lots of different levels of experience, from the first impact from a distance, as you get close, to see how things fall into different details and brush work. And so it becomes this a truly interactive experience, which is, I think, something that that, again, it’s a as you that participates in our lives and accompanies us, and then also makes us reflect about things, but also gives us joy and emotions and all these other things as well, too, and it and it makes life better. It just makes life better. I mean, there’s nothing more sad than a blank white wall for me. So what want to see pictures on them?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:20

I totally agree, yes. And that also reminded me of how Michelangelo, when he would make sculptures that we’re meant to be seen from below, he used to play with the perspective to make the upper body bigger in you know, when you would see it like eye to eye, but from below, it’s perfectly proportional, like it looks like, yeah, that’s, that’s a guy who’s perfectly proportional, but you see him, you know, eye to eye, and he’s massive, like, almost like a cone of the way that he’s increased the proportion so that it doesn’t look wonky from below, which is incredible. I mean, the fact that they this is something that is naturally thought of, right? It’s not just like, oh, make a nice sculpture and it’ll go up there. It’s like, No, I want people to see this and to understand what it is from below. I don’t want them to see a receding figure. That is. It is another part of the craft that is so amazing, and it sounds awesome. You know, the what you did the paintings to make sure that they’re seen from the correct angle. I think that’s also like next level, like art in its home, type of feeling, instead of, oh, here’s a painting that I made, and let’s find a wall where it fits. It’s more like,

Matthew James Collins: 1:09:37

Sure, then what happens? Happens. And I like, that’s not a satisfying response. And then it’s also, it goes back to the Greeks too, because the Greeks always use optical correction, I guess, for there’s architecture and sculptures, and that’s where because, and that just shows you, maybe they were looking at the world in a better way than we are. So they’re seeing things that a bit more profound, not profoundly, but they were looking more. Closely, and then living things more fully, too. That’s, again, we tend to coast over things. Now this is just kind of flip across screens and flip across images without truly looking at them, but again, maybe looking at something. And then that’s why we take that, I guess, as ours, we take that on as a responsibility, because if someone’s going to spend time looking at our works of art, we want something to be deep and something that will be rewarding over a long period of time, too. So the same kind of esthetic experience we get when we go to museums, if we have to, that’s to see Van Dyke and everything and Titian, but we see go every time you go back to a masterpiece painting, it never disappoints, and you see new things, and it’s like a it’s there’s a and that’s even a when. And as artists, we see things in a certain way. But even regular people, let’s say this civilian life, they see things that they do enjoy art as well, too. I mean, that’s what’s kind of I think, in hardening is when you see how popular the sergeant show was. I mean, how many people visited that? How many people visited the Bouguer show before there’s a Van Dyke Show, there’s the Reynolds show. So figurative art is kind of making, not just a comeback, but people are are interested in these things as well too, and not just in terms of a an economic, financial thing, but, you know, average, normal people are interested in in art as well too, and it’s our responsibility to make things that are engaging interesting, and then through poetry, they understand this kind of idea of catharsis, and this idea of living through works of art as well too, in a healthy way.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:36

So, yeah, yeah, not saying it is, you know, like you said, like, Oh, it’s just something you swipe on, you know, it like, I also agree it’s our responsibility to make something or to continue to create works that stop people in their tracks. And, you know, instead of making something that’s consumable, like, you know, I think about how commodified like decoration has become, like, even just very simple, like, even this, you know, this video, right? Me editing it like it took, it takes a while to edit a video we become so accustomed to, like, oh yes, of course, it’s being edited. That’s how it is. But that also is something that takes time and effort to put in a specific composition and to make it easy on the eyes, but we take that for granted. But that’s why it’s also good to make paintings and pieces that people certainly will stop and look at and realize, oh, every corner of this 2d surface right has taken a single brush stroke or multiple brushstrokes to fit by a single hand, instead of just, oh yeah, that’s just how it is, because that’s what we expect. Like there’s, I feel like there’s a bit of a disconnect too there. But yeah, I wanted to ask you too, because you mentioned, you know, having you have your courses that you teach, and you also have commissions that you’ve taken. What are some of the avenues that you’ve taken to both live from your work and or from your skills and expertise?

Matthew James Collins: 1:13:12

Well, galleries always help, so I but I’m not a real get big gallery. I tend to paint, and my paintings change, and ideas change, and so I tend to create paintings. But there’s, I have a painting, there’s a one’s going to Lisbon. My figurative work tends to be a bit buried, and travel to different, smaller galleries across Europe. And then I do I’ve been always doing portrait commissions as well, too. So there’s a bit of always getting your work out there and sharing it with people, because that’s what we because that’s what we wanted. We want to, obviously, we’re looking trying to find ourselves, but we want to share our journey with other people. And I think that’s another and again, essentially what we do in creating works of art is we’re trying to share this kind of beautiful experience that we have in creating art with other people. And I think that’s important as well too. We create it for ourselves, but without anyone seeing it. That’s that’s very romantic 19th century bohemian idea, but deep down, we want to people to see the kind of the world and share our vision and so and then so and so different gallery shows. But I’ve never been a big into commercial galleries, because it’s my work tends to be a bit kind of idiosyncratic. But portrait commissions have always been wonderful as well, too. And then I do, I do teaching as well too. So I was teaching at Cecil for a while, and then I’m teaching at a university here in Florence. And then I do, I tend to, and I do some private lessons in my studio now as well too, being slightly dis, I don’t, I’m not, contrary to workshops, but I kind of do a successful workshop. Certain things have to happen. And then the kind of condensing of what I want to kind of transmit, especially in terms of portraiture, which I think I’ve a lot to share, it’s difficult to do in a three or four days as well, too. So I kind of, I always try to paint along with the people that I’m from the very beginning to the end too. So I don’t. Like, do a demo, right? And then everyone paints. I kind of paint as everyone else is painting. And then I kind of teach so this way, and I talk and paint at the same time, yes, so I can do both. So you kind of try to, because a lot of painting is, I think, in terms of teaching painting, it’s seeing how someone paints, and seeing what they’re doing, and then kind of intervene, what is the title? Where’s intervenida is kind of step in at the right moment and then put them on track or change something or adjust something. So, because people tend to do things without thinking about it, they’re used to it. And then, if they’re mixing it, Colorize, oh no, to do that, and then change this. No, stand there. Look at this. And so without seeing someone do that, or just have them do it on their own, and then correct afterward, I see as less productive as being right there and so. And then that kind of limits, obviously what I can do. So I only have a certain amount of space, so I tend to only have one or two students at the most, and then I paint a portrait along with them too. I think that’s maybe the best way to teach anyway, so, but obviously there’s not. There’s other ways to teach as well, too, and you can definitely transmit a lot as transmit a lot as well, too. So I tend to certain painters come in and visit me, and then they kind of, we just paint a portrait together, and that’s one way of learning.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:09

So, yeah, yeah, no, but that’s a that’s an excellent point, because that was actually one of my frustrations as a student as well. Is being told after the fact, oh, no, you did this wrong. And it’s like, Well, you saw me. Why didn’t you intervene, like how you were saying because that would have prevented me from spending so much time trying to resolve something that I could have avoided. But I think, you know, that’s, that’s one of the hard parts as well, and probably the one of the reasons you you keep so few students is because it is hard to do that for every single student when there’s so many of them and only one instructor. Yeah, so I

Matthew James Collins: 1:16:49

and teaching is a skill too. So this is where it’s I was lucky. Where I was, where I studied, I got was an excellent teacher, so I learned teaching skills there. So teaching is communication, it’s also empathy, and then it’s also direction. And so those three different kind of, let’s say, elements come together. I think to make good teaching is where you have to empathize with what the students going through doing, and then you have to be able, to be able, you have to know what the what they should be doing, and then you have to give them direction to do it as well too. So, and that’s and communicate that in a productive way too. Yeah, I’ve had lots and lots of really bad art teachers over the years, and so just, just terrible. And so when I try to endeavor is not do what they did. So because I’ve had studying fresco, they secure and they just come, they say, It’s all wrong, it’s terrible, it’s all bad. I was like, well, that’s thank you for the feedback. But then how do you make that better? Nothing. So it’s like, so yeah, there’s plenty of people that, there’s plenty of teachers that are antiso. Teaching is a, I think, a great way, if you’re an artist, to supplement and to, let’s say, work and share the knowledge that you acquire. But I think first, as we mentioned before, in July, so the problem. So let’s say the the problems of, let’s say contemporary art schools, where students are teaching, they are not teaching very much, and they don’t know how to teach. And so that becomes a problem too. So first, learn how to do something, and then being able to communicate it. Then you become you can teach too. So giving lessons and other things, and obviously need a learning curve. It’s not like you learn how to teach like that. It’s practice. But so definitely, teaching is a, I think, a nice way to augment your because being an artist is hard. It’s a terrible it’s that. It’s terrible, it’s hard, it’s stressful, it’s some people are commercially minded, and they can really make the jump. Like people are commercial artists go into fine art, but they become commercial Fine Arts, and that’s fantastic, and they make very beautiful things. But if that’s not your personality, you just have to kind of deal with that as well, too. But I think in terms of teaching, you have to be able to, as you’ve experienced firsthand, you have to be able to transmit something and help people. If you can’t, well, then that’s you’re you’re benefiting, but the student’s not benefiting as well. So that’s kind of a shame in the end.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:08

So yeah, yeah. And I think it’s almost like a rite of passage for many of us to experience not so great teachers. It’s inevitable. I mean, not everyone that we meet is going to be an excellent teacher. But I think it also teaches us how not to teach, which

Matthew James Collins: 1:19:25

is really great. And then also someone and obviously, art is hard, so obviously, if companies discouraging you, then you just have to keep going. So obviously, if you’re easily discouraged and you stop, well maybe you should, because art is hard and art is it’s hard on every different level. But if it’s something that drives you forward and it needs you, and you need to do it, and you want to do it, then you just do it. And then obviously all the obstacles that are in the way will you overcome them one way or the other. And then obviously it’s but that’s what you. That, unfortunately, it’s not easy, and so you need a thick skin to be an artist, but also you need to believe in yourself as well too. So this is where it’s all again. It’s a it is this kind of circle of contradictions, where these different things come together, where you have to move forward as well.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:15

So yes, absolutely. And I know you just gave some really excellent advice, but do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Matthew James Collins: 1:20:29

Well, I think we’re all full time artists if we’re thinking about and doing it too. So this is where, again, if you if, if you have to get sidelined doing a little bit of this and doing that, that’s where it’s I think we’re kind of, you’re born an artist, and then you can, you can, if you have find the opportunity to express yourself and then be able to make a living off of it, that’s fantastic, because we have to make a living. But in the end, you shouldn’t. Again, unfortunately, that’s how the world is today. I think it’s a shame, because there’s a lot of poetic people that are discouraged from going into the arts because they don’t think there’s an opportunity in it, or they can’t make a decent living, and other things as well too. But if you’re destined to do it, you’ll do it and then just kind of overcome those obstacles as well to become a full time artist. Very rarely are people that are, let’s say, poetically inclined, full time artists, because they, unfortunately, there’s a lot of different ideas that go in together there too. So you just kind of, kind of, I don’t have good advice in that sense, though,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:37

I totally get you. It’s a It’s rough. It’s really rough. I mean, that’s why some people, I think, get day jobs, or they become teachers, or we’re in a bit of a strange time in the world right now. So I think there are weird, different opportunities that appear somehow. But yeah, it’s hard to give concrete advice. I totally agree.

Matthew James Collins: 1:22:00

Yeah, you do the best you can. And then obviously, it also depends on the personality as well, too, and what you want to do. So I mean, this is where, if you’re true to yourself, whatever you do, and then you can still be a great artist and sell, let’s say landscapes. And you could still, still lives. And you can do it as long as you’re being sincere and true to yourself. And for me, if you make beautiful things, that’s the most important thing. And then, obviously, sooner or later, they will be appreciated. Unfortunately, sometimes it’s later, it’s not sooner and so and then, obviously, there’s lots of other aspects of becoming a full time artist, which is networking and business sense and then, but some, I think it’s a lot of those, and then knowing how to insert yourself in certain environments, and then getting certain ideas and gallery shows and but that’s has very little to do with art, as we were mentioned in the very beginning of the conversation about the let’s say art, basil and other things as well, too. That’s a whole different kind of you can become a full time artist and not be a very good artist. And so that’s when you can be a great artist and not be able to be a full time artist too. So but again, that’s, I think there’s space for everybody. So you just have to find out where you fit in there and then do the best you can.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:10

So yeah, yeah, that’s all you really can do. There’s room for everyone. I do. I do agree, yeah. And then if someone wants to take classes with you, or if they want to see more of your work, do you have any exhibitions going on, or anything that you would like to promote?

Matthew James Collins: 1:23:34

But anyone’s interested in taking less wants to come study privately, send me a message, and then, as I do, plenty commissions, anyone’s interested in getting a nice portrait painted, they can always contact me. It’s come out to Florence as well, too. And so and I have a paintings in different museums. So if you happen to be in Barcelona, there’s a painting in the museum there and their permanent collection, and a painting in Florida and in Orlando, at the basilica there. So there’s obviously seeing paintings in real life is the best so, but that’s unfortunate, and galleries in the USA, there’s a nice there’s a jack Meyer gallery of some paintings and sculptures there. So I’ve had the end to be there. So, but other than that, if you come to flourishes, write me, and then you can come visit. So it’d be a pleasure to see other artists and other artists and other art students. Anyone wants to come, just

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:25

contact me. Awesome. Yeah. And then what is your website? And if you have social media, the website

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:31

is like, my name, luckily, Matthew James Collins, and then Instagram is the same thing. Matthew James Collins, artist, so

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:39

perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matthew For the very informative, inspiring conversation. I this was brain candy for me. Oh, well,

Matthew James Collins: 1:24:51

thank you. It’s a pleasure chatting with your wonderful conversationalist.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:54

So thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you to everyone out there for. Listening to the podcast, your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career: collectors. Our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long-term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialogue—through conversations at shows, home salon events, and gallery openings. Many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media, and even texting to stay in touch, share new work, and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity, from handwritten thank-you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers but possible friends, supporters, and “connectors” whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Episodes mentioned in order of appearance:

• 81 Steve Atkinson

• 87 Johanna Spinks

• 94 Karen Blackwood

• 61 Nanci France-Vaz

• 99 Heather Arenas

• 101 Joseph Gyurcsak

• 120 Kim Casebeer

• 130 Scott Ruthven

• 162 David Griffin

• 166 Miriam Schulman

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Steve Atkinson: 0:00

You need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that they’re collecting.

Johanna Spinks: 0:17

You know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime.

Scott Ruthven: 0:23

Nurture your community, your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give?

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career, collectors, our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialog through conversations at shows, home, salon events and gallery openings, many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media and even texting to stay in touch, share new work and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity from handwritten thank you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers, but possible friends, supporters and connectors, whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist’s career over many years.

Steve Atkinson: 1:52

The other thing that illustration gave me and being an illustrator, is understanding people are going to roast me for this, understanding that art is a business, and so if you want to make a living at art, you need to not just be excellent at your technique, especially if you’re you know, representational artists, you also need to be able to understand that there are deadlines, especially if You’re in galleries or in shows. You need to be able to get things done on time. You need to make a profit, make a little bit of a profit, otherwise, you know, you’re going to end up like so many artists that just can’t make a living at it, and understanding, Oh, the other big thing, the big difference between illustration and fine art, is that with fine art, it really is centered on it’s a relationship based way of living with illustration. You have, you know, your commercial clients come to you with with fine art, you need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they’re going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that They’re collecting. They and this is true in all business. People do business with people that they like, and so having that email list is so important, having social media is important. Advertising can be important, but picking up the phone and calling people who have bought your work and staying in touch with them so important, and something that I’m trying to get better at, because I’m a big introvert, but luckily, I have learned that one on one, I’m I’m really good, but Talking to big crowds of people, or going to shows where there’s a big crowd, that’s a little more daunting for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:06

That’s That’s understandable. I completely relate to that. It is definitely a lot easier to, you know, have your focus on one person. I also get very overwhelmed in large groups. But, yeah, those are excellent, excellent, excellent points. And I think you know, especially, you know, if you have a career in illustration, right, or, like when you did, you get used to all that. Maybe not the one on one collector side, but you definitely get used to deadlines speed and okay, you got to get this done exactly the way that the client wants it. Because, of course, the client is the one who tells you exactly tells you exactly what they want. Versus, you know, in fine art, you can come up with almost anything and and then the collectors have to come to you, you know, but you have to put yourself out there. So it’s a little bit of a back and forth, different, yeah,

Steve Atkinson: 4:57

yeah, yeah, most definitely. And I. I think so often we don’t understand that it really is a relationship driven kind of kind of a calling. I didn’t realize that when I first started, and I’ll tell this little story, I was at a show, and a lot of times you’ll see when artists are at the show, the artists will glom together. You’ll you’ll see somebody that you know, who’s an artist, and you’ll go over and talk to them. And there’s all these collectors that are, that are there, or people that you don’t know yet, and you can spend your whole time just talking to an artist or a bunch of artists that you know. And I had, one time I had someone come up and insert themselves into a conversation that I was having with another artist, and they didn’t know who I was, and when they found that, they said, Oh, are you in the show? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. And they said, well, where’s your art? And it was a show that had many different rooms of art. And I said, Oh, it’s over in this room, over here. And went on to talking to the person that I was talking with. My wife comes up afterwards, and she said, Honey, you may want, if someone comes up and asks where your art is, you may want to take them over and show them. So I never made that mistake again. But it’s just one of those things that’s not innate, unless you realize that you’re building relationships. And it’s nice to talk to the people that you know, but it’s much better to go up and talk to someone, maybe, who’s looking at your art or someone else, and find out what their tastes are in art and start that conversation where they’re from. Do they have any artwork? Is it prints? Is it originals? What do they look for in a painting? I just find that if you start talking to people about what their likes are, the conversation is so easy. I mean it, people love talking about themselves, and so you just go down that road, ask them a question, and you can just nod for 10 minutes, you know. Or a lot of times, you’ll find you have a lot in common. I have made such good friends doing that, and to this day, not just people who buy my art, but people who you just generally like you genuinely like. So it’s, it’s a great experience, if you look at it as this person has something to offer me. I don’t know them, but I know we have things in common. We just have to figure out what they are, yeah, so that’s it. I’m off my soapbox.

Johanna Spinks: 7:35

Dave touched me too. It’s a two way street, you know, and the conversations that we had, and by the way, in the face of Ventura, we I linked in with a newspaper, and all those sitters went on to a radio show too, so after the sketch had been painted. So it really was about, you know, telling their story. And I think that’s what made it powerful, actually. And I will say, if you’re going to do these kind of things again, if you’re interested in putting your artwork out there in terms of marketing, and we have to talk about marketing that, you know, be kind of thinking, Well, you know, what is the end game of this as well? You know, because going off and painting 130 portraits of people is a big time commitment, as you know, doing a show like this, those things are a time commitment. You’ve got to arrange it. You’ve got to do this, that and the other and it was a significant part of my yearly thing, doing that. So I was very aware right from the beginning that they were never going to be for sale, that they were, I think I sold one of them, and then said I did sell one of them, and it was a very bad idea. Changed my mind and asked if I could have it back and give her a painting instead, which, which she lovely, lovely. So agreed to, because this the Boone Special Collections archives had asked if they could take the Malibu and rebuild series into their collection. And she was one, one of the paintings that was missing I needed, I needed to have her included. So in terms of marketing and building your brand, you decide where you’re you know what you’re aiming for. I mean, I really wanted those portraits to be archivally stored somewhere. And I just started with that intention from the very beginning. And it took a lot of effort and a lot of very good people in the towns to help me achieve that. And that goes back to the one on one contact with people you know, the people that that are your connectors. You know, just, you know, nurture those the connectors. You know that somebody said, somebody famous, and I hope I’m not misquoting, but you know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime, and I say if you have 50 serious connectors, you know people who like you, like your art, and. Stay with you over the years that will take you so far. You know, the connectors are as gold as the connectors collectors are. Connectors are as gold as collectors. So, yeah, I would say, always have in mind, you know, that the mountain you’re trying to reach in terms of, you know, well, could this go somewhere? So with the 365 days of drawing, you know, there was a show, there was a book, self published book, there was a article in American artist magazine that was so never think, Oh, I’ve done this. That’s it. Like, think, well, what can I do with it afterwards? Because a lot of the stuff for me happened after the individual Town projects were finished, the paintings were in storage. And then then I said, Well, now I start the what do we do with this?

Karen Blackwood: 10:51

Surely have one collector that is one of my best collectors, who found me online when I lived in Michigan and bought a piece and continues to buy my work out here now, and I’ve had her to my home, and I usually will have a once a year salon show at home where I invite only my collectors or future collectors, kind of like a way to just show them what I’m working on, so they become, you know, friends, and I value them. And then through my galleries, I would say, you know, they maintain a really strong relationship with collectors. And anytime I’m working on a new piece, they’ll make sure that collector gets to see it. And then out on social media, you know, people get to stay in touch. And the newsletter actually on the FASO website, my newsletter. I built a strong following during covid. I couldn’t paint my large paintings. I thought I would kill them and I and I knew I had to paint. So I did a that I could keep working. And I knew I could sustain focus for, you know, a six by eight. So I think I painted about 80 of them, close to 80, and sold them all through my newsletter on FASO. So I would let the buyers know that, you know, next Tuesday, you know, look for my newsletter and first come, first serve. It gets sold to, you know, whoever tells me I want it. And so I built up, you know, I think I added 400 followers from that campaign, on that, on that newsletter, because they were buying the painting. So, so the newsletter is also a big thing, I would say, social media and keeping in touch through a consistent newsletter on FASO has been, yeah, fine art studio online, for those who don’t know, galleries

Nanci France-Vaz: 13:17

is somebody else’s business, and you know, you’re taking a chance that they are going to put you in front of their collectors. Some of the problems today that I see with that, I think in the 90s or turn of the 21st Century, you know, they’re they were really good before the whole social media thing. And I think since social media came out, as a business owner myself, I kind of can feel for, you know, social media artists are able to sell on their own right now, but of course, they have to find the collectors. That’s very difficult to do. I’ve done it, and I have done, you know, in the past year, I do have those collectors that have seen my work through Instagram, and so that’s why I focus on Instagram, or I read about them, and then I went to an event that they were at, and I didn’t say anything to them. I just got to know them. And, you know, I became, I guess, very extroverted as I got older. I was more introverted when I was younger, and then after gymnastics, I would say, in my 30s, I started to come into my own. And then in my 40s, now I was selling. And so I found that you have to get along with people. You have to network by just becoming their friend. You have to build relationships. That’s what business is all about. Build relationships, whether it’s with a gallery, with a collector on Instagram. You know, some people just want people to like their work and follow them, but they never comment or like. Your work, there’s a lot of people like that, so it’s got to be reciprocal. You have to build relationships. Doesn’t matter how many followers that person has. So I try to do that. I try to build relationships with some galleries. I felt like I wasn’t ready because I wanted to find my voice. Now I am. So that’s why I went with Dasha. When Lee asked me to do a solo show, I said, I’m out of inventory. I only have one painting left, and I sold most of those on my own. But I do want to be in a gallery too, because I think both can be lucrative. If I am in a gallery and I’m signed to a gallery, if I have a collector that goes to the gallery, you know, I always get the gallery 50% I don’t undercut a gallery. I think that’s wrong to do. Somebody asked me, you don’t take 50% of your price. I go, No, absolutely not. I do exactly what my gallery would do if my gal, if it wasn’t seen in my gallery, and it’s my client, and I’m not represented by a gallery, I’m just a guest artist. I can sell my work on my own. There is no contract, right? So I do give them, I start with 10% and you know, I won’t give more than you know, some galleries that have asked me, can you go 20% but I’ve had it enough so that I feel like, if I’m going to give up 50% then I’m still making money, especially if I have to ship it. So you gotta, it’s very hard to do your homework. Find the right Gallery and the right galleries that really believes in you, that wants to sell you work. Well, you know what? I think everybody’s trying to figure out the landscape and how to render that landscape for their business and and it’s all good. I totally get it. Like social media changed everything. So they’re trying to figure it out. You’re trying to figure it out. I think being with the gallery, being my mother was a business owner. I’m a business owner. You know, if I had a staff, I would want them to be loyal to me, absolutely. They absolutely have the right I’m definitely Pro Gallery, but you have to pick the right one that works for you. But there are some excellent galleries out there that have artists for a long time, and they have artists for a long time, and they always give them a solo show, and they do quite well with them, and those are the ones that you want to strive to be in. That’s the struggle of artists, whether they’re younger or older. You could be older and breaking into the business. There’s no such thing as age. Age isn’t the number. You know, you can develop work and be quite good at 80 years old. You don’t have to start on year five. It all depends on the time you put in. You have to look at me. I went on the hamster wheel, and I’m trying to catch up, and I think I’m there. I caught up to a certain extent. I wish I had 40 more years in this. Maybe I do, I don’t know, but I think you have to try all of it and see what works the best. But I think having a lot of different venues to try out is good a friend of mine. Francine Craig is a friend of mine, and, you know, she’s done AI. I don’t have any problem with that, as long as they’re not saying it, it’s a painting. You know, they should have their own venue and be able to sell their work their artists, too. But I tend to like traditional work, and she goes into auctions. And I said, Oh, really? She said, Oh, it’s a lower price point. I said, Well, maybe I could do studies that are like six by nine or eight by 10, like real, Listen Live. I put this little, small five by five inch painting in their auction because I was part of the faculty this year, and it sold, and I’ve had it for a few years now, you know, I’m like, Oh, why didn’t I think of doing that? You know? So you never know. Try everything. If that doesn’t work, try something else. Put that painting somewhere else. Maybe it’ll hit that collector base right at

Laura Arango Baier: 19:15

FASO, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrushshow.com that’s BoldBrushshow.com the FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now, more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that. Come true, and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Heather Arenas: 20:45

your relationship with your gallery is one that you nurture. And my galleries are a partner with me, like we are both going for a good common cause. They want to make money. I want to make money. And so we’re going to work together to make that happen. And I think that there are a lot of people who are like, Oh, the calories. Are trying to do me wrong, and that’s just not the case. They just, they want to help you as much as help themselves. So it’s definitely a partnership. And so we discuss, you know, whether or not they are willing to give me a collector’s name, and am I going to go around them to go sell directly to that collector? Heck no. You know, I mean, I have a understanding with my galleries that I won’t undercut them. I won’t knock the sale out from underneath of them, any collector that is connected with the gallery. I’m going to run that sale right through the gallery, so because it benefits me just as much, this is a long term relationship. So that being said, one of the things that I do is, if I know that I am going to deliver work, which the two galleries that I have right now are within driving distance, so I will drive my work to the gallery, and ahead of time, I’ll send out a newsletter that basically says I’m going to be at the gallery on this date, and I would love to meet up, come and meet me at the gallery, and we can talk about this piece, you know. And so I’ve met a few collectors that way, who either already bought my work or have been dying to see the work in person, and they met me there, and we forged a relationship together, and that in person thing is just wonderful, and I tried to do that As much as possible. Now I have collectors in England, in France, you know? I mean, I’m not going to get to meet every collector in person, but I love it when they engage with me. And so I will, sometimes, I’ll post a photo of the painting, say, sold online on one of my social media sites, and then the collector will come forth and say, Oh, it was me that bought it. And I’m like, great. This is wonderful. Then I have a conversation that I can engage with them and find out a little bit more why they like the piece, a little bit more about them. And so I’m just always open to the conversation, I guess. And to that end, I send out a newsletter once a month or more, and I try to post on my Instagram page two to three times a week. And I’m just me. I’m not nearly as polished as a lot as a lot of the people who post on Instagram and all the videos that they’re doing now I’m like, I try, I do the best that I can, but I am what I am,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:50

yeah, and honestly, the efforts that you’re putting in are definitely paying off, right? Because I love that idea of, Oh, hey guys, I’m going to be at the gallery this day, and I’d love to meet any of you who’ve collected my work. That’s that’s awesome, because, yeah, oftentimes I have met artists who are, I guess, since there’s that relationship with the gallery, right, and the gallery doesn’t always share who your collector is, you might as well just like, put your foot out there and be like, hey, you know what? I invite you guys to hang out, literally, at the place where you bought my work, or want to buy my work. And that feels a lot more safe, and I don’t know, than trying to, quote, unquote, steal those exact collectors out from the gallery. Yeah.

Heather Arenas: 24:27

Well, and I’ll work with the gallery, and they invite people to come and see me too, you know. So if they know somebody who has been interested in my work, they will specifically call them up and say, Heather’s going to be there on such and such a date, you know? And then we coordinate a time, and I get there, you know, I’m not, I’m not a flaky artist in that I do what I say I’m going to do, and I show up. That’s 90% of the game, right? It’s just show up and then do the work. So Exactly, yeah, it works out really well, though, to have. Have that kind of partnership and understanding with the gallery.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:03

You have to develop friendship. You have to have a gallery that really believes in you don’t just try to be in a gallery where you say, Please, can I get in your gallery? That’s the wrong position to go in. You need to be in places where they say, Yeah, I believe in this work, and because, if they believe in it, they’re going to sell it, because they at the end of the day, when somebody walks in the gallery, remember The Gallerist or the gallery director, those are the people that are going to speak about you. So they have to know you. They have to believe you. You have to develop a relationship. You only need one good gallery. You don’t need a 1020, of them. I mean, I know some artists have that, but really, you have to have that sincere relationship connection to the you know, sometimes the galleries don’t share who the collectors that bought it. Sometimes they do. That depends on the relationship and how that goes. But if you do have a collector that buys from you straight up direct, because I sell things on Instagram or, you know, through my website, or if somebody comes around and says, I bought this from the gallery, always make sure that you send out some sort of Thank you, and that’s really a good thing, like thank you for supporting me and my famp. We send out a note, like a card, and it says, Thank you for supporting me and my fam, my journey, my family, this and that. People have to know how much that means that, you know, you invested in me and gave me I used to make a joke, but I and people would think I’m really seriously. Say, yeah, if I don’t sell pain this month, my my wife said I can’t paint anymore, really. Oh, my god, yeah, so I need to sell, you know. But aside from all the joking, yes, you’re supporting somebody’s journey, you know. And you know, back in the day, if you read the old art books, they would have like, what you call a sponsor, like somebody sponsoring you to be an artist. Well, yeah, artists need to make money like everybody else. So when you find those people that do support, you, let them know. You know how much that means. Just a little note to them or something to keep them in the loop. I’m not that great on my website for doing the newsletters, but I when I just finished a workshop in Belgium. The artists really said, I said, I don’t want to bug people all the time with a newsletter this and that. Say, well, even if you do it four times a year, so I’m actually going to do that based on the feedback I got from this workshop. I’m going to try to do a newsletter every quarter, at least, because I think I didn’t realize that they were telling me they want to hear what I’m doing. So I’m like, okay, yeah, I’m going to do it. We’re going to do it. Yeah? So there’s a goal right there that I’m going to do that I haven’t been doing. You know, make adjustments everything we’re talking about. You hear something, hey, that’s to your advantage. If people are giving you feedback and it’s positive, you have to do something right first.

Kim Casebeer: 28:29

I think it’s very important to show up. So if there is an exhibit, if you are part of an exhibit at a gallery or an art center, or really any place you should you should show up. You should be there, especially during the opening, for sure, and perhaps other times too, I have had situations where the gallery, this is more local my Kansas City Gallery, that’s not very far away, so it’s easier for me to get to it’s a few hours where we’ve had an opening and I’m there. And then we also do, maybe another day, the next day, do a like a demo day, a more relaxed day where we’re demoing and and the idea is, is that we can talk more one on one with people, because it’s not quite as busy, it’s not quite as crowded as the opening night was. And then I’ve had situations where perhaps we try a an ending Reception The show is getting ready, because most of the shows are two, three months long, and then you have an ending reception where people can reconnect with you. And so I think you have to, you have to go to those and and connect, connect with your collectors. Yeah, I think that’s very important, but they also collectors will also connect with you in other ways. And one way I do that is with newsletters. So I have, I actually have two newsletters. One is. I would call it a general newsletter. So it has the show information, but it also has workshop information, classes, all those types of things. So a lot of artists subscribe to that newsletter. And then I have a second newsletter that is dedicated to collectors. And at least mine is, it’s a little smaller, but it is, I would say it’s just as important. And it only talks about the shows that are coming up or or maybe a photo of what’s on my easel at at this moment, those types of things that a collector is going to really be invested in.

Scott Ruthven: 30:40

And then, if you don’t mind, I always like to ask people, How did you find me? Whether it’s a collector, I asked you this when you reached out to me, right? And it’s, it fascinates me. The and I an example I just give is a recent I just picked up some commission for multiple paintings, right? And it’s people that just live an hour away from me, but they found my work when they were visiting their son in California at a gallery in a show that I’m in. So, you know, I’m just a local guy for them, really, and but they saw my painting in person, and they like it. And they said, Hey, this is a Colorado guy. They looked me up. They signed up for my email, and now I’ve got some business from them. So you never know. It just such a great and the YouTube channel I started because I was getting more requests to teach workshops. I do teach plein air workshops, but they take a lot of time, and I’m teaching eight or 10 people, because I don’t like to have a huge crowd. I think I really want to have that individual attention that I give to my students. But there’s only one of me, and the time is just, you know, I can’t the trade off in time is too much. So I started the YouTube channel as a way to just kind of do some live streams and that type of thing and and try to share how I paint. And then that became a community of people that tune in for those and the followership grew. I did monetize eventually, although I’m not gonna, you know, it’s like, it’d be my full time job, because it’s that’s not what I want to do. But I like to teach. I like to share. And so that’s a community of its own. I’ve sold work to that community. But you know, really, I try to, I try to give more than you know, a trick I would pass along is to nurture your community. Your collectors don’t always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give? How can you, you know, and giving might just be taking an interest in their life, sending them a nice note, remembering a birthdays, texting them. I mean, I’m on with I text with my collectors. I’m sure a lot of the you know artists do as well, but that’s a great thing to do, because it doesn’t really take anything. Everybody texts today. It’s an easy thing. If you know somebody’s birthday, text them a happy birthday, and so, you know, seek to give some value, rather than always just pulling value out of your audience, whether it’s YouTube or your email list, your your galleries, that kind of thing. Because this emotional bank concept, if you’ve heard of it, you know, you can’t, you can’t keep making withdrawals out of your bank account without putting deposits in. So, you know, I seek to make more deposits than withdrawals.

David Griffin: 33:28

The other purpose is, is giving me a chance to connect in a different way with collectors. Galleries are important, and they have been important to me, but they don’t offer the opportunity to meet and speak on an extended period of time with someone that’s interested in buying your work. Most of it’s done remotely. I’m not there when it happens. Shows are different matter. You can actually speak to, you know, an exhibit at a museum show or at the Coors show. You can actually speak to the people why they’re interested. What, what, what stopped them, what connected? And that’s what I really want to spend also in this art of wandering journey is hopefully being able to connect with new collectors and and establish a relationship, create an opportunity for for the collector to be part of the process of what I’m doing. Not that they would tell me what to do, but I want to know what. I want to know what, what made them aware of what I’m doing, what made them if it stopped them, fine, if it angered them, if it made them happy, if it brought them some peace. I need to know about all that, and the only way I can know about that is having a conversation, or some sort of dialog with them. So that’s the other part of this process. Journey is I want to, I want to open up that avenue of you. Of connecting on a deeper level with the collector or the interested parties. It’s just going to help me better. It’s going to help me communicate better. It’s going to be helped me to be a better artist. It’ll probably help me be a better person. I’ll find out. You know, what it is that I’m doing, if it makes any sense at all to anybody, if it matters. So those are the things that I think are on my mind today and will be for a while. And isn’t it wonderful for me? Isn’t this such a blessing for me to be able to because you’re the first one, you are the initial platform that I’ve been able to that I’ve been given opportunity to announce this new endeavor. So I’m grateful to you for the timing and for the opportunity to talk about what’s on my heart today. So thank you Laura and and BoldBrush and and Faso and all the other thing, all this, this umbrella of wonderful creative people that have given me the opportunity to show my work in such a wonderful fashion. So that’s it continues to be a cool collaboration from my end of the stick, or my end of the bargain of surrounding myself with people that that allow me to be better at what I’m doing.

Miriam Schulman: 36:30

So Instagram tends to be a little bit more confessional. I wouldn’t be as confessional on LinkedIn as maybe Instagram is, but much of the content you’ve posted in the past on those other platforms are it’s exactly the same thing. They like, videos, pictures of your art in progress, your values, pictures of you working your studio pet, all those things. Of course, you don’t have a studio pet, maybe your studio goldfish, I don’t know, yes, yes, all those things behind the scenes content, but you want to make it behind the scenes content that’s interesting to collectors, not other artists. So not, Oh, I couldn’t decide whether to use Payne’s gray or whatever, and this is how I saved my painting. That’s something artists care about. Behind the scenes content for collectors, it’s a different flavor so they want It’s like the difference between knowing how the sausages are made, that’s what artists care about, versus what’s the speech that the waiter gives when he’s telling you the specials that’s like what a collector wants. It’s like the magic,

Kim Lordier: 37:50

I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of. I think, like a lot of us throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium, we have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows. So my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base. And that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know, my friends, people that are who may be listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s your way, and It’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we, kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work. You. Again, remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important. But I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:24

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For today’s episode, some of our past guests share the creative “aha” moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to “find a style.” They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts—reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing—as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Episodes mentioned on this episode:

• 62 Aaron Schuerr

• 77 Aaron Westerberg

• 79 William Schneider

• 118 Shuang Li

• 129 Brian Bateman

• 137 Chris Krupinski

• 139 Jeff Legg

• 144 Christine Code

• 170 Kim Lordier

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up.

Aaron Schuerr: 0:07

So that was like a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project.

Chris Krupinski: 0:13

But later, when I found this, was like, this is the hugest aha moment.

Christine Code: 0:19

That was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:25

Now, before I announce our episode for today, there are some updates about the podcast that I need to inform our listeners about. The podcast. Name will change from the BoldBrush show to the FASO podcast. Although we had reasons to use the name BoldBrush Over the years, we have discovered that separating our offerings into two brands causes confusion for most people, so to solve that issue, we are retiring the BoldBrush name and moving all of our offerings under our main brand, FASO. Now on to the show. Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a boldbrush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, some of our past guests share their creative aha moments that transformed both their work and careers. You’ll hear how structured projects and daily discipline can unlock unexpected growth, and why understanding value matters more than obsessing over color. Our guests reveal how real artistic voice emerges naturally over time, rather than from trying to find a style. They also discuss the power of painting from memory and imagination instead of copying reality. Finally, they explore mindset shifts, reframing commissions, embracing the process over the product, and using creativity in marketing as key breakthroughs on their artistic journeys.

Aaron Schuerr: 1:52

Well, like I said before, the newsletter is one of the key, key areas. And then I can add to that a couple of occasionally I’ll do just fun projects. And these really started during the pandemic, you know, because everything was all the galleries were closing, and I thought it was going to be like 2008 all over again, you know, where, you know, galleries are closed, shows are closed, all my workshops are canceled. What am I going to do? And so I started off, I just did a video sale and market it first to the news newsletter subscribers. And that did well, because I was just thinking about, like, let’s put together some projects that just get me through, if I can just get through a month, you know, keep us from getting kicked out of our house or whatever. And then I did. I called it a plein air marathon. And so that one, I did a painting a day, or every week day. I took the weekends off, eight by 10, and until I got to 26 paintings. And so I would go out in the morning and do the painting come back, and then I’d write something up, the newsletter and and that was something where it was just the newsletter subscribers had the first chance of buying it. So I saw them all unframed at that point. I mean, I sold them all for $400 each, which is way under retail, but they’re just unframed, you know, on the spot paintings. But each one, you know, I have a little story with it about what happened that day. And then what I could do is, then I put on Instagram and Facebook. Hey, this is the painting I did. It sold. But if you want to have a crack at the next one, you got to sign up for my newsletter. And so that kind of brought people to the newsletter. And again, I like when I started this project that well, one, it’ll get me out painting will be a good discipline. It’ll get me out painting every day, and then two that, if I just sell a handful of them, you know, get through another month, and I ended up selling all of them. And I ended up having to I did some extras, because there were people that were like, Hey, I tried three times or four times to get one of your paintings, and someone was always there first. So I was like, All right, I’ll do, you know, I’ll do another one for you. So that was, like, a big aha moment of, you know, creating a fun project, one that I’m just about to do, that I’ve done the last three years. I call it the 12 paintings of Christmas. And it’s six by eight, six by eight or eight by eight paintings. I’ll start December 1, go through December 12. And they’re so they’re little ones, and I frame them because I figure it’s Christmas, so then it’d be nice for people out frame there. I. Nicely framed, but they’re, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re at a price that’s lower than than my normal retail so I’m really careful, though, about like with projects like that, where something is less than, you know, it’s less than a gallery price, that it is a specific project, you know, like the this is, I did the plein air marathon. I ended up only doing it once, and keep meaning to do it again. But this is for this specific project, so it’s different than my other work. I think that’s important, because, one, you don’t want to start undervaluing your work by, you know, seeming like you’re desperate and and then also to have the good relationships with the galleries, because if a gallery finds out like, Wait, you’re selling stuff out of your studio for half the price. No, I’m doing, you know, I’m doing a project that’s very different. I don’t I’m not putting six by eight paintings in galleries, and it’s the set project. So for me, I the nice surprise with those projects is that they were good from a marketing standpoint, but they’re also really good from an artistic standpoint, like the 12 paintings the Christmas helps me plan what studio paintings I want to do in the next year, because I get, you know, I try them out in this small format, and there’s a few of them that I’m like, ooh, that’s an idea I want to go back to. So it’s a nice transition sometimes, between plein air and planning studio paintings. So it helps me out that way. But yeah, finding fun projects like that and making them, I think making them exclusive for like, Hey, this is going out to the you’re you’re a newsletter subscriber. That means you, you’ve chosen to follow what I’m doing, so I want to reward that with, you know, a project like this,

Aaron Westerberg: 7:09

Yeah, no, it was slow. It was over a few years, for sure, because I didn’t know what I was doing, you know, I didn’t know what I was doing. I was just, I just wanted to be a fine artist. I wanted to be a gallery artist, you know. And so I was like, What do I have to do to, you know, to do this? And I just wanted everything to culminate to where it would help facilitate that, you know. So working at borders didn’t really facilitate that, you know, too much, you know. So as soon as I cut that out, I did, but, but, yeah, you know, you know, I think some of when you teach, like, you know, a lot of times I would get, you know, because my drawings were, they were, they’re pretty decent drawings when I was teaching, because I would teach life drawing, and a lot of times I would get people to take my class, and they would see me, and, you know, I was like, you know, 20 something years old, and like, Oh, you’re just a kid, you know, like, I thought you’d be like, an old man or something. And, and I’m like, I think, but some of the best teachers are the ones that are, you know, just kind of learning. And, you know, can do the things, but everything is kind of new and fresh to them. They’re not like, crusted over and, you know, they can actually express the ideas that maybe someone will just be like you just got to go through a million drawings to figure it out. So, you know, draw teaching. I think almost anyone can do that, you know, early on, you know, I think that’s a really good way to start and, you know, it, it doubles down on what you know. You’re teaching somebody you know what you know, and so you have to vocalize it and basically explain it to somebody who has no clue. And it’s also good, I have some good teaching stories, because I’ve taught for a long time, and I’ve taught some, I mean, I taught a guy, I’m positive he was in the witness look relocation program. I mean, I’m positive, you know, this guy was, like, total sopranos guy, and he had a pinky ring that was, like as big as my thumb on his pinky, and you could just smash me in any time, if you want to. He was humongous. But, yeah, I just so teaching is it’s interesting, it’s fun. But you learn more. You get better at your craft by teaching. So I think that is, is a great way to supplement your income. And then, like, the thing I want to say with social media is, you know, it’s, it’s easy to get bogged down in it and just kind of be negative towards it, but it’s like a great opportunity for artists right now. I know tons of artists, and I’m sure most of the viewers do also that just sell, you know, directly or through their Instagram or whatever. They don’t have a gallery, you know, and I. And it’s, it’s also, you know, I think we all have a degree of creativity, and you just have to kind of put it into the into your posts, you know, you, you know, like a lot of people, do the same things over and over, like varnishing the paintings or whatever. I mean, I do that, but, you know, but you just be creative with it, you know, when I when I first got that, like, Aha moment when I and I didn’t get it, the aha moment until after it happened. But what I did is, for that studio sale, I laid out a whole bunch of paintings on my studio floor, and I took a picture of it, and I’m like, I’m gonna have a studio sale, and this, all these are going to be here, and frames and all kinds of stuff. And then people started emailing me that picture back and circling the paintings, like, how much is this one? How much? Like a lot of people, and I’m like, Oh, wow, this is really. This really works, you know, just just kind of organic. I’m not trying to sell individual painting. I’m just kind of showing them what I’m doing, and it worked great. Like I said, I sold almost everything before the actual opening of the studio, sale the physical opening. So I think it’s just a matter of putting your creativity into the marketing side of your paintings, and it can be anything, you know, it can be anything. There’s tons of ways to do it, you know, stuff that’s not been done yet, stuff that’s been done with your own little twist on it. It can be anything, but it’s, you know, when you sell your stuff yourself, you don’t have to give a percentage to the gallery. You know, it’s, it’s very nice. It’s very nice. And you know that, like a lot of galleries, don’t share information, like, who bought your painting, so, so, you know, you get, you develop a relationship with that person. And a lot of times those relationships last years, right? They continue to purchase from you. So you know, it’s, it’s good. And you I mean, I, like no one who has my paintings, you know, I enjoy that a lot. And they send you a picture of it on their wall or whatever. It’s so gratifying, you know, so, so, yeah, that is, that’s a really good side of kind of social media and being able to market yourself and be, you know, be a living artist today.

William Schneider: 12:27

Don’t try to find your own voice. And I’d say that because that is one of the pieces of advice that was passed on to me by Bill parks, and he was 100% right. I think that if you just study, become curious about the world, curious about everything. You will gravitate towards certain themes, certain ideas, certain ways of expressing things, style or voice. I think is nothing more than people’s habitual mistakes. In other words, if somebody Okay, Modigliani making these elongate or El Greco making these elongated figures, maybe he had an issue with proportion, but it became a style, you know, and because in art we you cannot paint what we see. What we see is light, light rays hitting the object, bouncing off the object, going into our retina, being projected upside down on nerve endings and our eyeballs in the back of them and going into the brain and being interpreted as as whatever. But in that process, every step of it, you’re losing information, and so the information is filtered through our own verbal constructs and prejudices. I mean, human beings, including artists, talk to themselves incessantly without we never shut up, you know. And so the internal dialog, we can either try to harness it and use it, or we can fall victim to it. And what I mean by that is, you know, a lot of my students, you know, will express their internal dialog. They’ll make it external. And it’s kind of, oh, I started too late. I’ll never be any good. I just don’t get this temperature business. I don’t understand this. Maybe I should take up, go off. I was better at golf, but not really that good. I was like, a 19 handicap, but, and they’re doing saying all of these things, a useful dialog would be, okay, I don’t like this. What don’t I like? Is it too light? Is it too dark? Is it too warm? Is. It too cool, is it too sharp? Is it too soft? Is it too green, or is it too gray? You know, if you ask yourself sort of these paired questions, then you can come up with useful answers. And to circle back to style, Bill parks told me, do not try to find your own style. And then in my own research, I ran across a little, I don’t remember, the excerpt from a letter or somebody recording advice you received from Sargent. John Singer, Sargent about, you know, I want to become a great portrait artist. And Sargent told him, No, don’t try to become a great portrait artist, try to become a great artist, and then you can do portraits. And that’s what Sargent Did you know obvious by his body of work throughout time. And you know, so if you just try to be a great artist, you try to be the best that you can be at the things that interest you, eventually your style will will find you. Yeah, I don’t think I have a style particularly, but then I’ve had people say, oh, you know, I could I recognized your painting right off the bat, really, you know? But it’s, I’m just trying to be honest to the scene that’s in front of me as filtered through my own internal movie, you know, generally, like the anecdote I told you about the persecuted woman. If my best paintings are paintings where it’s not model Sitting in Chair. It’s Romeo sitting at at her mirror, pining from her lost look. It’s, it’s like a movie. And so then I started, start illustrating that movie. It’s that internal dialog, and that’s what I circle back to, that people you’re going to talk to yourself anyway might as well say something that’s useful.

Chris Krupinski: 17:01

Yeah, I actually think I didn’t know what or how powerful the value, the value pattern, or the value scale, should be in the painting for quite a long time. So I always wondered why my painting doesn’t really look right or look good. I also blame you know my color wasn’t right or the detail. I didn’t really know this how to paint this little thing, etc. But later, when I found this like this is the hugest aha moment, you would say, oh, that’s because my value is wrong. Sometimes the process the word saying the value does all the work, but the color gets all the credit. We all know that right? How, how I actually find out and helped myself to improve on the awareness of values is you could simply turn your painting into black white, then instantly you will know, and you compare to the pros or the paintings you admire, you do the same thing, you know, take a photo of that painting. Compare these two, black and white, instantly you will know, oh, that’s why the other painting is so good or so powerful. You know, it’s because the value is correct. Even like the piece as Impressionism. Piece colors everywhere. You couldn’t really realize it. But when you turn it into the black, white. You will see it

Laura Arango Baier: 18:43

at FASO. We inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. FASO provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s boldbrushshow.com. The FASO podcast is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career, thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist’s website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today, right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seeing. The right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast,

Brian Bateman: 20:14

I will go back and review perspective. I will go back and review my basic drawing skills. Teaching helps me to go back to those basic drawing skills. So I would recommend, you know, I’d recommend teaching too, because for those of you who have taught, that really, really helps you get back to core basics. Because you’re you’re trying to teach that again to your students, and in teaching that to your students, you’re re teaching that to yourself. And then you’re also learning to communicate, which sometimes my wife says, I have a problem doing. So if you learn to communicate better and get it across to do the student, and you have that aha moment, or they have that aha moment. It makes you feel good you’ve gotten, you’ve got across to them, and that that’s very cool. But back to the core. That helps with the core, at least for me to revisit that

Chris Krupinski: 21:21

I paint every single day. Back when I decided it was going to be important to me to to be a professional artist, I made a commitment to myself, and this is when I still had kids at home, I made a commitment to myself that I would paint at the minimum of two hours a day, no matter what. So Christmas Eve would find me wrapping gifts and then pulling my paints out for two hours. Because I I am 100% sure that the only way you are going to get better is to put the time in. And I so no, aha. Moment happens. It’s like watching your kids grow. Never once did I ever say aha, they grew two inches, because you don’t see that unless you look back, and it just grows slowly and it progresses to where you’re going. And I so no, but when I do look back, I do see tremendous changes, you know, and growth and and whatever. And I just attribute that to time being put in. And so the more time you put in, you it will slowly, it will slowly change and hopefully go to the better.

Jeff Legg: 22:57

Well, let’s see. I wrote down some things that I think might help. Yeah, I guess probably the biggest thing was that, realizing that you can’t really copy color. I mean, color is very relative. It looks, you know, one color looks different next to another color next to another color, and the color is so relative, you could paint anything in any color, and it would as long as the value relationships were were good and correct, that the color doesn’t matter. So I don’t get real hung up on trying to reproduce an exact color. In fact, I will push colors where I want them to be. I mean, after all, we’re dealing with paint, and you can only do so much with paint. Sometimes you have to exaggerate things just to get across the emphasis of a certain color that you want to focus on. So, you know, I put a lot more, a lot more practice into value, you know, relationships, because that’s really the most important thing. So that was a, that was a pretty big thing to realize I didn’t have to be, you know, I’m not a I’m not a camera, you know, I’m not even trying to be a camera. I’m trying to, you know, paint something that looks I want to paint whatever I’m painting to be more than what it is, you know, it’s be more. Even what a camera would capture. So that means taking some liberties, which is a good was a really good segue to one thing that’s I’ve done for about the past 15 years or so is I paint quite often. A lot of it’s from imagination, or a combination of, you know what I’m looking at and my imagination. So I find a lot of freedom in doing work from memory, imagination. And I really, really recommend highly that people work from memory. Is you know more than they do you know. Working from your memory or your imagination, that’s sort of the same thing you are forced to you’re you’re going to force yourself to find out what you really know. Because what you really know is you know should be able to come out as a memory or as your imagination. And the more you practice and exercise your imagination, I think the better artists will be we’re, you know, as a child, our imaginations are much more pliable, and I think we use it more often. And as we get older, we sort of, you know, lose our childlike ability in that way. So I try to practice that. I’ve done a lot of paintings. Still I totally from made up, and you would never know. It shouldn’t matter. I mean, really, in some ways, those paintings are maybe more truthful than trying to, you know, exactly copy what I’m looking at, because they’re, they’re from me, you know, they’re not locked into just, you know, what I’m looking at. You’re kind of an expression. Then the another thing, as far as technique, that was a discovery that has helped me a lot is I’m in love with surface texture. I a painting isn’t a painting unless it has beautiful surface texture, you know. So in my that’s just my opinion, but I like to build up textures and patina and glazes and using regular oil paint, oil paint, even if you add mediums that you know to help speed the drying, they still it takes a day or several days to really be thoroughly dry, if not months, and you certainly can’t really glaze a painting that’s not thoroughly dry. So I discovered alkaline oils, which was a fast drawing oil paint. And depending on the humidity level and and the thickness of the paint, everything, it’ll dry, you know, anywhere from it’ll be pretty darn dry in two or three hours or or overnight for sure, three or four days it’s it’s completely cured out. So that has helped me speed up my process a lot. Then the cool thing about alkids too, is they they all dry at the same speed. They can be mixed into regular oils. You can start a painting with alkyd and end it with regular oils. Or you can do the whole thing with alkid. It’s just a beautiful for me. It’s a beautiful balance, because I can, I would say I would speed up my process by weeks by using alkids, at least in the beginning stages. If not, you know, the entire painting. These paintings are all out, good. Uh, and it is, it’s, don’t misunderstand, it is an oil paint. It’s just a fast drying oil paint. It’s not acrylic. Acrylic dries too fast for me, and it doesn’t have the same feel as oil paint. So anyway, yeah, the using alkaline oils is, I know it’s unconventional. There’s not a lot of artists that really do that, but that’s been a big thing for me. I can, you know, I can do a painting, you know, average size, still life, you. Do all the glazing, everything I want to do to make it that surface quality, the texture and everything. Let that dry, say, a week, and then it’s dry enough to varnish, you know, get it framed and send it, send it off to a gallery. Whereas, if I were using regular oils, I might have, you know, that might be more like a three month process, if not longer, I would say, like I said, I’ve always take a commission work, and commissions kind of drag you down, especially if the client is really prescriptive about what they want. And of course, now that I’m showing in all of these galleries and selling, you know, the work that does come from my heart, I can be a little bit more picky and choosy on the Commission’s I accept. But recently I just commissions just are pressure, no matter what. By recently devised a system that helps alleviate some of that pressure. So let’s say a client asked me for you know, they say, Oh, I love your sunsets with the peachy tones, but I need a 40 by 40. I will say, Okay, I’m going to paint you two or 340 by 40s with the peachy tones for you to choose from. And that has been really great for all of us. It takes the pressure off me to get it right in that one shot. It takes the pressure off the client to be stuck with one, the one and only painting you do for them. It takes, you know, they have choices now. I mean, what’s better than that? And also, whatever gallery this commission is through, I’m getting them all three paintings, and the client picks one, and the gallery has more stock it can hang the other two on the wall and sell them. So it’s a win, win for everybody. And you know what, once in a while, the client will say, Well, you know what, I have room for two. So they actually take two. So the you know, that’s just a bonus. So that’s how I’ve been, how I’ve been dealing with commissions lately. And it’s it’s been working out really well. It really takes the pressure off, off everybody. Um, because the more parameters a client puts around a painting, the less free I am able to make those choices. And sometimes it just ends up in a jumbled mess because their vision doesn’t match my vision, and I can’t take the painting to where, you know, I want to put out my best work. So if I offer three options that way, I can make my three best paintings with the peachy sunset colors and, and they have the choice. And, oh, and yes. So if you are showing in a gallery, just a piece of advice, and you get a random email and somebody asked for a commission. Always ask that collector if they found your work in in a gallery, or did they just find you through a random internet search? How they found you? Because if they saw your work in the gallery, first, you should run that commission through the gallery, it’s just good business. It establishes trust with your gallery, and it just builds that good business relationship with your gallery, so you should always honor that. But yeah, anyways, that’s that was sort of an aha moment. That’s how I deal with the pressure of commissions. Now, you know, it takes a little bit longer, but the galleries are always wanting work, so it kind of kills two birds with one stone, and it’s that it’s been great that way.

Kim Lordier: 33:29

So I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realized that it’s really truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. You know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like knock on wood. You know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happened to my beautiful space that I love to be in. I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know, and I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be. Able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody. Or, you know, that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here. But it’s just that I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand, and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends, and there was just nothing greater than that for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:34

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For today’s episode we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials (acrylic vs. oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture paste) and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile, artifact-like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative, experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction, and rescue, and how embracing “happy accidents” and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration, and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career—balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups, and building relationships that lead to gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community, and actively create their own opportunities, and also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram.

Nancy’s FASO site:
nancycrandallphillips.com

Nancy’s Social Media:
instagram.com/nancycrandallphillips

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Transcript:

Nancy Phillips: 0:00

You develop a very thick skin, yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen, you know. I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting. And you know you, you have to let go of your expectations and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening, that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:34

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with abstract mixed media artist Nancy Crandall Phillips, who shares her artistic journey from ceramics and fiber arts to the richly layered encaustic and mixed media work she creates today. She explains how a deep interest in the chemistry of materials, acrylic versus oil, wax, gold leaf, papers, texture, paste and an early education in composition and edges shaped her highly tactile artifact like surfaces. Nancy describes her iterative experimental process, emphasizing cycles of excitement, frustration, destruction and rescue and how embracing happy accidents and letting materials behave on their own terms is central to her work. She also discusses the emotional side of being an artist, including taking breaks from painting, dealing with frustration and building resilience and trust in the process. Nancy also talks about the practical realities of an art career, balancing freelance accounting work with painting, entering juried shows, joining art groups and building relationships that lead to Gallery representation and auctions. Nancy closes with advice for aspiring artists to persist, cultivate community and actively create their own opportunities. And also invites listeners to explore her work on her website and Instagram. For those of you who are watching the video version of the episode. We wanted to let you know the video quality of this episode on our end is not the best for that. We apologize, though this does not affect the quality of the conversation. Welcome Nancy to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Nancy Phillips: 2:34

Thank you. I’m well. Thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:38

Of course, yeah, I’m so excited to have you, because you are actually our second abstract artist to have on the show. And I’m very much enjoying talking to abstract artists, because there are so many aspects of painting in realism that benefits so so so much from the abstract thought and the experimental side. That happens much more frequently with abstract than with realism. So I’m excited to pick your brain, and I love also your pieces. They’re so, so beautiful. I love especially all your blue pieces with the gold. You’re welcome. But before we dive more into your work, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Nancy Phillips: 3:23

Well, I’m Nancy Crandall Phillips and I do currently, I do abstract mixed media work. I do a lot of little tiny pieces, and I do very large pieces, and I’ve been doing that for working in that way for about 10 years or so, using the same materials over the last 10 years, but it’s been a long evolution since I got started. I started out doing ceramics. When I was in high school, did a lot of ceramics. In high school, went to college, thought I was going to do pottery, and switched to fiber and fabric design, where I did a lot of mixed media, or I did a lot of soft sculpture work and weaving and print making and that type of thing. Then got out of college, worked in a bank for a little while, which I’ll circle back to, but then ended up working in the interior design industry for about 10 years, but always taking night classes in more ceramics, printmaking, drawing, that kind of thing. Then finally, after about 10 years, decided I really needed to make a change and go back to graduate school. And if I was going to go to graduate school, I was going to do something I loved. So I ended up. Uh, going to art school and still taking night classes at a really great art school, and doing my master’s degree at Cal State Northridge, which was much less expensive than a professional art school, but over that amount of time, got a lot of instruction in the materials that you use. I mean that what intrigued me all along was, well, when I first, let me backtrack a little bit, when I was in college, there was a presentation put on, incidentally, by a sales rep from Grumbacher who explained a lot about the chemistry of paints, and acrylic paints versus oil paints, and you know the differences in how they’re made and and talking about how the chemistry of it all. And you know what you can combine, what you can’t combine? You know, you can put oil on top of acrylic, but not acrylic on top of oil, and acrylic is essentially plastic, and that was a revelation to me. So anyway, fast forward through my early 20s, and I finished graduate school, married my husband, who’s a realist oil painter, and and started layering these things together. And eventually I I started working consistently on canvas and but I was always my let me backtrack a little bit one of my most instructive classes I took when I was beginning in college, taking art classes was about composition, and it was given by an advertising a former advertising executive guy and he and so the whole class was about composition and and how what your eye does with different elements in a comp, in a composition, and talking about how if you have a piece that touches the edge, your eye will immediately go there first. But even more exciting that then that is something that almost touches the edge, and the tension that that, that there’s tension there that you that will grab your attention anyway. So through that, I I have always paid a lot of attention to the edges of things, and I loved Canvas, you know, painting on stretched canvas, but the edge of the stretch canvas bugged me because it was so boring, you know, just Canvas wrapped over stretcher bars. So I started tearing my canvas. I would actually buy painters Canvas wash it in the washing machine because and I would rip it and then wash it in the washing machine so that they had the frayed edges, and so that it wasn’t completely flat. And then I would stretch it on a board and staple it with staple gun, so that it was stretched but uneven along the edges, almost like a carcass, like a skin of a of an animal, you know? And because, in the end, I was interested in my pieces looking like old leather and sort of like artifacts. So I worked that way for quite a while. And so I would work, I would take a piece of canvas, stretch it when it was wet, then it would dry and shrink back. Then I would paint on it and layer. I started collecting papers. I made paper for a while myself too, a little bit. And so I have, I have flat files full of a collection of rice papers and tissue papers. And every time I went to art supply stores, I was buying, you know, exotic papers of all kinds, and layering those on top of the canvas, because and sometimes painting them and layering them down. And when you when you layer them with acrylic medium. The paper itself often disappears, depending on what kind of paper it is and that, and then layering paint on top of that, especially watered down paint, so that it sort of decomposes and settles in all those little crevices. Is, and you can see the little you know, particles of pigment in there is always works for me. So I work like that for a long time. And then would would have, when the paintings were done, I would take them off the the plywood and stretch them over a stretched canvas, so that the edges overhang the stretched canvas, so that they would hang on the wall like they were floating, like a floating piece of canvas or animal skin or whatever, which was fun and lovely but impractical in the real world. And so, you know, you’re always worrying about the edges, and especially if there were paper overhanging the edges, which was which really floated my boat, those get wrecked pretty easily. So finally, I decided this is ridiculous. I need to do something that’s a little more practical in the real world, and that galleries wouldn’t be intimidated by handling, and that wouldn’t get damaged in shipping. So I started buying cradle panels and and then I discovered texture paste, which is a lot like clay. And so I started working the way I work now, which is smearing texture paste all over a cradle panel, then taking canvas and or paper, and then mushing that down on top of the wet texture paste so that it sort of oozes out the sides like clay. And that gives you all kinds of opportunities to embed all kinds of other stuff in there too. So, so that’s the way I’ve been working for the last 20 years or so, and slowly accumulating more stuff to embed in there. And somewhere along the way there, my husband started making the cradle panels and started doing a lot of framing himself. So we were making a lot of frames, and I was doing the gold leafing on the frames, which found its way into my work, because gold leaf is so fun, so and then other things started, you know, sticks. And we, we eventually, about 20 years ago, we moved from LA out to Northern California, out in the country, where we have a lot of Manzanita up here. And so there’s a lot of sticks around that are very intriguing, and so I started attaching those on and, you know, using wire and, you know, pieces of metal and just stuff that is hanging around. Then, about eight years ago or so, we were both in a art auction event up here at the Crocker Museum, and where everyone had big pieces they were auctioning off, but also little tiny pieces that they were donating for an a smaller live auction. And I saw a little piece there with gold leaf in it and other stuff that was just lovely. And met the artist, who was an encaustic artist, and she said, Oh, you know. I said, Oh, tell me, you know, you can embed gold leaf and encaustic. And she goes, Oh, yeah, you should really check this out. So I joined her encaustic group and went over to her studio a number of times. And so she’s my friend now. And so I started layering encaustic on top and and embedding things in that, and working with the the three dimensionality of wax on top of other papers and embedded stuff. And really, really having a lot of fun exploring wax when it’s translucent and when it’s opaque and and how incredibly frustrating it is to try to make it do what you want to do, and working out Ways to work with it in spite of its inability to let you control it. So anyway, that’s sort of brings you to how I’m working now,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:55

yes, and it’s fascinating, because. It feels like, you know, it’s a very experimental, like I mentioned earlier, iterative process where you come across one medium and you’re like, Huh, I’m going to try that out. And then you come across another medium and you blend them, and then it continues to kind of like become a bit of like a step ladder situation, or,

Unknown: 15:20

like, exactly that

Laura Arango Baier: 15:23

adding stuff. And I really, really love how the I feel, like, the very common sort of thread that I’ve noticed is you mentioned, like, how you wanted your canvas with, like, old leather. And of course, you were in the fiber arts, which, you know, natural materials, type of thing, and then jumping on over into like encaustic and like paper, and how both of those materials are very translucent, and playing with the, you know, Hide and Seek sort of aspects of like layering, which I really love, too. It makes me very curious about encaustic too, because it’s such an ancient technique as well. It’s something that’s been used throughout humanity for such a long time. Such a long time. Yes, I love love that so much. But yeah, and what you mentioned about encaustic being like such a difficult medium to use, I think the last time we spoke, I said that kind of sounds like watercolor. So it, from how you’ve described it, too, it sounds like it’s harder in that aspect as well.

Unknown: 16:27

It is. There’s less

Nancy Phillips: 16:30

in some in some ways it is because I’m, I’m into all the layering aspects of stuff, but there’s very few things you can layer on top of encaustic. So it’s, it’s limiting in that way. And, I mean, you can’t really put oil paint on top of encaustic. You certainly can’t put acrylic. It won’t, won’t stick. And part of working with encaustic is, I mean, you’re, you’re, when you’re, you’re painting with melted wax, and then you take a heat gun and have to seal it to the layer underneath, or it will pop off. So you’re working flat with melted wax, with a heat gun, and a heat gun, you know, pushes air out, so it’s, it makes it all move, which is annoying, unless it moves in a way you appreciate. So you learn to work with that too. But anyway, it’s very I find it, I don’t know, evocative and satisfying and infuriating all at the same time.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:45

That’s what’s that’s what’s fun about it, right? It’s, I think it wouldn’t be quite as fun if it wasn’t so challenging. You know? Yeah, I think there’s a very healthy amount of resilience, of course, that one has to, have to work with challenging mediums, but if you really enjoy it and you enjoy the challenge, then it’s totally worth it. And it’s funny, because I was just discussing that with with a friend, where if it’s too hard, you won’t want to do it, yeah, and if it’s too easy, you don’t want to do it. You need to have that like level of discomfort that makes it feel like achievable, so that it feels satisfying, and then you want to do it again. Yeah, yeah. And I was gonna also mention how the way you’re describing the process, too. I’m curious to know, what is your favorite part of the process that you’ve developed over time? I Huh?

Nancy Phillips: 18:45

Well, I I love starting out because all things seem possible. And usually I start out with a plan that that works for about, you know, an hour and a half and then, and then, something doesn’t go according to plan, but in a in a good way. So I find that I I, I make a lot of adjustments along the way, and feel free to change my mind, which you have to if you’re going to do this kind of thing. But starting out is a lot of fun, and usually I get to a point about a third of the way, and I work, let me backtrack a little bit. I work in in layers of things that that at the beginning, at least have to dry for periods of time. So I’ll work for a couple hours on a piece, and then have to go away and come back the next day and do some more. So it’s so it takes me a week or two at least of consistent work to get to a point where. I feel like I’m finished on a piece, and sometimes even longer. So they’re waiting periods when, when things are drying and changing. And, you know, acrylic paint, I I start out with with acrylics which change color as they dry, and I’m a lot of water down acrylics that that move around as they dry and pool in different places in different colors. Work. You know, there’s a big difference between, you know, phthalo blue and ultramarine blue in what they do to each other, what they do to the layers underneath, how they dry, how they pool, all that kind of stuff. So so usually things go along pretty well for the first couple days, and then they all fall apart and and then I go through a period of trying to figure out how I’m going to rescue this stupid thing that’s driving me crazy. And I assume I’m not supposed to swear on these things.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:08

Oh, you can, it’s all good if. Anyway, I totally agree.

Nancy Phillips: 21:15

So anyway, usually there’s sort of a long period in the middle there where I’m trying to rescue it and, and that’s, it’s always gratifying when something happens where you think, oh, you know, this is great. It might actually survive after all. So that’s always a fun part. And usually I’m, I’m doing more experimenting, in the end, with little, you know, tweaking of the converts of the composition. You know, the way, if you’re, you know, if you’re an oil painter, you’re really hitting those highlights that really sort of pull it all together. You do that, and I do that in abstract work as well. And, you know, trying to decide at the end, you know, well, am I going to do wax on this part. Am I going to try to, you know, am I going to throw some gold leaf in there, or some other metallic something? Or lately, or for the last several years, I discovered pigment sticks that you can use on top of encaustic, but you have to care, be careful then, about what you do on top of the pigment sticks. But that’s a whole new thing, of how you can manipulate the pigment sticks. You can, you know, draw with them. You can then go back with paint thinner and mush them around with your fingers, or whatever other things you want to do anyway, kind of those finishing touches are, are gratifying too. So there’s, there’s, there are particularly fun spots along the way with agonizing frustration in between. But that, you know, makes it all worthwhile in the end, usually,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:23

yes, oh man, I love that. That is, it’s very poetic, because it’s always so exciting at the beginning, you know, it’s like a, I think if I see it in a graph, you know, it’s like the excitement. And then it drops like a lot, and then it goes back up towards the end to a very satisfying, hopefully satisfying finish. But I think it’s also really interesting, because there’s this sort of like in the creative process. Along the way, there’s also a destructive process, you know, there’s like this back and forth between you, you know, you move three steps forward, two steps back, sometimes or five steps forward, one step back, and it’s, it’s the same with oil painting too. There’s a lot of push and pull, push and pull, but it’s really cool to see it in a more, I guess, gosh, a more experimental way too, because it is through that experimentation that you discover so much, right? It is you discover, oh, well, like how you said you can’t really use the pigment sticks. Or, like, if you do use a pigment sticks, you can’t really do something on top of them without destroying them. So it’s, it feels much more scientific. Kind of like how you said that, you know, the chemistry side of like, working with materials was what interested you. And I love to like that. Do you ever find that you might start a piece and then you you just, there’s like, no way to salvage it? Have you noticed that happening? Or do you are you able to save like, a good amount of them?

Nancy Phillips: 24:53

Yes, I have a stack of them over to the side that I’m trying to keep out of the. Out of the view of the camera, yes, but often I find that if I if, if things are really going badly, then I don’t care anymore, and I can be really reckless with it, and that’s when better things happen. And I’ve done a number of commission pieces where I’ll I, if I do, if I get a commission for a piece, I try to do two or three, because I find that if I’m if I just do one, it’s it’s too precious. I’m too tentative with it. And if I do two or three, then I can be much more casual and reckless. And the one that I initially started out with, that I think is really going to be successful, is not nearly as successful as one of the others that I was less, you know, I was more, you know, carefree about So,

Laura Arango Baier: 26:05

yes, that is so important, because there’s so much you know, when we put a canvas right, we’re right. We have a canvas ready. It is so easy to put so much pressure on ourselves for it to be the best thing we’ve ever done in our entire lives. It’s like, this is going to be the masterpiece. This is the one. But it is awesome to have that idea of like, okay, I know this piece is important. It’s commissioned. I’m going to make three so I know I have space to, you know, let myself play and not be so overcome with, like, the worry and fear of, oh my gosh, what if this doesn’t turn out and I have to start over? It’s good to have that wiggle room of, like, Okay, I’m going to play around a little bit and not put so much pressure on myself, because I mentioned this earlier. But there’s something, and there’s something really limiting imperfectionism, right? Like it’s such a box that we put ourselves in, you know? And of course, the way that you work, it’s hard to stay in the imaginary box of perfectionism, which I think is so healthy, even if it is frustrating.

Unknown: 27:20

Yes, definitely. So I

Laura Arango Baier: 27:25

also wanted to ask you, if you’ve had since you’ve, you know, you’ve had this very long time to be able to experiment and play and learn and repeat the process over and over. Have you had any recent or big aha moments in your work that have really, you know, changed your perspective in your work, or have helped you move forward as an artist.

Nancy Phillips: 27:58

I think it’s a little bit that way, when I start working with incorporating something new, starting to work within caustic was a little bit like that. It changed. It definitely sort of took me on a little off ramp to a little bit different esthetic in the work that I do. And then pigment sticks have sort of expanded that a little bit too. But there hasn’t been anything dramatic. There was a period I after. There was a period after I got out of graduate school where I did pretty consistent work for about, I don’t know, eight years or so, and then got frustrated. It was just going nowhere. So I took, I took a couple years off, and didn’t paint at all for about a year or so. And we were living in an old house at that point, and we were restoring this old house, which you use a lot of art materials when you’re I mean, when you’re working with wood, you work with a lot of the same stuff you work with when you’re an oil painter. And so when we find when we finished that and I went back to painting, somehow that sort of reinvigorated the work that I did and and I think probably at that point I I started working a lot more with acrylic than oil paint, because you can you. You can cover it up and start all over again. Easier you can you can abandon that and start again. Easier with acrylic than you can with oil paint. But anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 30:19

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Nancy Phillips: 33:50

I not real, not, not really. I mean, it’s, it’s always been sort of up and down. It wasn’t dramatic.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:05

That’s good, yeah, because I think it’s also, it can be so defeating too. When you take time off, yeah, it makes you feel like, gosh, I’m a failure. Or, why isn’t this working anymore? Is this even what it should be doing? You know, especially

Nancy Phillips: 34:21

if you’re if you take time off when you’re not liking what you’re doing, yeah, when you’re consistently unhappy with your output, it’s, it’s a little depressing. Yes, yes, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:35

it can be very tough. But I think yourself like, Okay, I’m just stepping away for a short period of time, right? I’m just gonna take some time off. I think that that also really helps with not having so much pressure about like, oh my gosh, I’m just stop. I quit, I give up, because that’s very different. But that also makes me wonder, so you mentioned also that your creative process when you’re creating a piece. 90s, you can find yourself in points of frustration. How do you handle or like, what keeps you going, experimenting on?

Nancy Phillips: 35:15

Can you repeat that? I you, yeah. I you,

Unknown: 35:18

so did. I blanked out for just a second.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:22

Okay, yeah, no, I can repeat that. So when, when you’re working on a piece that’s really challenging for you, or like, when you reach a point when you’re creating a piece that gets challenging, what keeps you going, even when it gets really tough,

Nancy Phillips: 35:40

I walk away from it for a couple days, and usually leave it somewhere where I can see it sort of out of the corner of my eye. And fortunately, we have, we live in a house with a big family room next to the living room, and the family room we’ve converted into studio space so I can I can see what I’m working on in the studio out of the corner of my eye when I’m doing normal life stuff. And that helps, and usually stepping away from it for a couple days and trying to let go of what I thought my next step was going to be, and sort of entertain possibility of doing something radically different. And if I mean, I, because I work in layer of thing, layers of things. It, it’s, I can always put another layer of, you know, I can, I can decide to cover that all up with a, you know, a layer of paper that I’ve painted somehow to, you know, if there’s, if there’s parts of it that I think are really going wrong, I can, I can pile stuff on top of that, to obliterate it somehow and keep, I mean, I find that that if I keep working on it, it gets it’s better than just walking away. You know, usually, usually, the things that our best are things that have gone sideways part way through. You know, things that have come together easily are not as interesting in the end as the ones that I’ve had to save somehow.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:37

Yeah, yeah. It’s really interesting. Because I feel like, like you said, it’s a bit of a balance of, like, okay, working more or stepping away. Because even in oil painting, we also have the issue of, like, overworking, yeah, where a section of a painting just looks like it’s been touched way, way, way more than it should have been. And then, like you said, areas that are just oh, they came together really easily, and they’re not as fun or as, like, nice. So I think that’s really interesting, especially with, you know, how I find that I think abstract in that sense, might be a little more challenging, because you are so dependent on the abstract forms of composition, compared to, you know, like with a realistic oil painting, where you can just lay things out and it’s a it’s a lot more obvious to the eye what things are, because you’re already telling them, this is what this is with abstract that it seems like much more of a challenge to like you said how you had focused a bit more on composition. What would you recommend to someone who maybe wants to improve composition? How much of it is experimentation, and how much might be like looking at other artists who have worked on composition? What have you done to improve your composition?

Nancy Phillips: 38:58

I would say, look, look carefully at paintings you like, and pay attention to what you like about them and where you’re looking and what’s happening there where you’re looking. I think it. I think a vast majority of learning to make successful artwork is learning to stop to not, you know, just whack away endlessly, you know, to to, you know, put down a brush stroke and don’t do three or more. You know, it’s, it’s, really, it’s taken me forever to just not overwork things. And. And you know, to see what one brushstroke will do. And especially because I’m working, I work a lot in materials that move after I put them down. I’m not working in impasto oil paint, although that’s what I love looking at. Just to let, let the paint do, do what it does. And, and, you know, step back and, and, you know, stop messing with it so much. Yeah, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:37

that just reminded me too of something that I thought about, which is dialog, right? Having a dialog like you’re saying with the painting, like it’s, I think it’s a lot easier to notice too and abstract, because you have such a very particular conversation with the materials, because you have, especially with a caustic how you’re describing, that it’s such a challenging thing to work with, you have to have a dialog with them, and that material is telling you, this is what I’m going to do, and you got to figure out how you’re going to react to me, because this is what I’m going to do, right? Yeah? And I think that’s one of the bigger challenges, but the way you’re mentioning it, yeah, I think having a bit more of like that, allowing the medium to speak to you, which doesn’t necessarily always happen with oils, in in a realistic sense, I think it’s a lot more obvious with the abstract.

Nancy Phillips: 41:34

Yeah, kind of but I mean, I think look at, I mean, if you’re a realist painter, look at your realist painter heroes, you know, we you, you know, look at John Singer Sargent and his, you know, his individual brushstrokes are like little abstract paintings. And that’s one of the things that makes his work so amazing is that, you know, if you take, you know, a little tiny snapshot, it looks like, you know, Mark Rothko and, and that’s, that’s the hard part is, is, You know, letting an individual brushstroke speak for itself, and and, you know, let it be paint on the canvas, instead of, you know, paint by numbers, you know, a solid block of, you know, titanium white, you know, inside black lines. And that’s, that’s what I do, just on a different scale, I think. And, you know, incorporating different stuff in there too, but, but it’s, it’s letting your materials do what they do best.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:56

Yeah, yeah. And trusting the process to an extent. Because, gosh, I mean, when it’s like, especially with encaustic, or, like, any of the materials that you use that want to do what they want to do, you almost have that you have to let go so much. You have to surrender so much to the process. How, how is that experience been for you? Like, did you have, you have you noticed that you’ve built a bit of resilience towards, like letting the materials do what they want. You develop a very thick skin,

Nancy Phillips: 43:29

yeah, and you, and you, you have to be open minded to pleasant surprises that happen. You know? I mean, they talk about all, you know, the happy accidents that happen in painting and and you know you you have to let go of your expectations and and try to see possibilities that you can build on things that are happening that that you didn’t expect, but are actually a better way to go than what you had originally planned, at least. And I mean, I I just finished a piece. I’m entering in a in a show tomorrow where there was all kinds of interesting things going on, but there was way too much interesting things going on, and what I ended up doing to save it, in my opinion, is just, I mean, it’s a relatively medium sized piece, which I usually don’t work medium size. But in this case, I am, and I ended up focusing on a piece, you know, that was like two inches by three inches, because it was interesting, but there was just too much. Noise in the background. So I had to basically isolate that little interesting spot in order to let that be the focal point and be interesting. And, you know, let the back just, you know, take a rest, you know, and, you know, fade into the background so that you’re not so frantically distracted by, you know, all the other things going on in the composition. So it’s not what I intended at all when I started this piece, but that’s where I ended up. And you know, so far so good. We’ll see,

Laura Arango Baier: 45:46

yeah, and you know what it I find that that is so interesting. And I think it happens to anyone who’s creating anything, whether it’s painting a craft, anything where, like we might have an idea of what something, you know, what we want something to turn out to be, and then we have to, you know, come to a compromise where it’s not going to look like that, no matter what. It might come close, but sometimes it might never do that. And I think it’s because in sometimes we have, like, some somewhat of, like a dream, like, way of seeing things where, like in a dream, you know, things don’t always make sense. Like someone’s arm might be coming out in a funny way, but in the dream it looks normal. It’s, I find that it’s, there’s also that practice of, like, imagination that gets translated, and then you just have to deal with reality.

Unknown: 46:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:41

And then I also wanted to ask you, because you do sell your your work, which is awesome, what was it like for you when you you started selling more of your work? Like, what because you, you had mentioned to me you actually did some freelance work on the side. What was it like for you when you were balancing those two things, oh,

Nancy Phillips: 47:03

it’s, it’s always been that way for me. I’ve I, when I first got out of college, I worked in a bank for about a year and a half and learned about finance, and then I worked in the interior design industry, and I thought, Oh, great, I’m going to do all this arts, Arty stuff in the interior design industry, and that didn’t happen. I became the accountant, but that’s always been a skill I have in my back pocket, and so I’ve always been able to freelance that and do art at the same time, and that’s helped a lot. So, so that, I mean, I still do accounting a little bit, not very much, but, but it’s, it works. It works and it helps, you know, run a household with a couple artists in it,

Unknown: 48:09

yes, for sure, but

Nancy Phillips: 48:14

it’s been, it’s, it’s been nice to have, I can, I can, I can see how they sort of influence each other. It’s, it’s nice to have something that’s neat and tied up in a box, and when you’re done, you’re done and and you can put it aside. And then there’s this other thing that you know is hardly ever neat in a box, and but, but, you know, I’m still making order out of chaos in in the artwork that I do so and actually, I mean, in the just the artwork I’ve sold, I mean, I’ve been in a number of different galleries, and they’ve always, it’s always been sort of a fluke that has gotten me in the first, the first gallery I was in, I’ve always entered, did a lot of entering jury shows, and, you know, accumulating those lists on my line, on my resume. And I was getting something, I went into a frame shop to get a piece framed that was going in a show. And the framework, I said, Oh, you know, this is just like all the stuff I framed for this gallery over there. You should, you know, show your work over there. And that’s how I got into the first one. And then I forget how the second or third popped up. And then my husband was in a gallery in Massachusetts, and my brother went in there and started chatting with the owner, and she said, Oh, you know, what does your sister do? Well, she’s an artist too, and so she invited me to an invitational show, and my stuff sold, and then she it. Ended up selling quite a lot of my stuff over the years. So it’s always been sort of fluky things like that. But you never know who’s going to see your work where and think they can sell it and, you know, develop a relationship. So one thing sort of leads to another, at least for me, it’s worked that way. But you got to get your work out there where people are going to see it. So you have to enter a lot of shows and join a lot of art groups. I mean, I’ve, I’ve been in a lot of art groups over the years, women artists, mostly sometimes abstract painting groups, encaustic groups, and a lot of those sort of came and went over, you know, covid But, but you know, they have exhibits, they show and then you know your stuff is out there. And you just never know,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:01

yes, yeah. I mean, it’s one of those things that I’ve mentioned, I think, a few times on the podcast, which is, it’s fine to be, you know, an artist who’s in their studio, but in the end, if you want to get your work seen and sold, hopefully you have to step out of the studio, right? You have to go out and talk to people, or, like you said, you know, you went to a framer and the framers like, oh, this, this, and that, you know, go check those people out. They might like you, right? So having that, you know, human connection part, I think, is so underrated. And you mentioned to me, I think that you also started with, you know, you were also doing auctions as well, like going to those events.

Unknown: 51:46

Yes, yes, yes,

Nancy Phillips: 51:51

yeah, we find that that local community galleries and and museums have art auction Invitational things. So we so my husband and I both get invited to submit work to those venues, which are always, I mean, it’s always a great place to meet other artists and see what the other artists in the area are doing, and get your work out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:18

Yeah, definitely, yeah. And how have you found these events? Have you like, has it been the internet, word of mouth, like, how have

Nancy Phillips: 52:28

you just they’ve been art through gallery owners that represent us. I seem to be on boards of museums, and somehow our names get on lists and so,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:44

yeah, that’s, of course, over time. I mean, as you build your, you know, reputation, but in a way, it is building your reputation where you start getting seen more, yeah, it definitely makes it easier to find those opportunities.

Nancy Phillips: 52:55

Yeah, and if you join art groups, they’re always talking about where, you know, everybody’s talking about where they’re showing and where they’re entering, and you piggyback on your friends, you know, I mean, you know, there’s a lot of word of mouth out there that you can take advantage of. So it really helps to get out of the studio and get interacting with other artists who are doing what you’re doing and going to, you know, conventions and things like that. Yeah, yes, yeah, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:25

I mean, you have to seek those opportunities out, right? I mean, something else that I’ve mentioned, which is, like, I think there are a lot of people, maybe not a lot of people, but it has happened to us at some point where we think, Oh, maybe an opportunity will follow my lap, right? It’s like, it might in the future, but you need to start building up, like, to get to that point,

Nancy Phillips: 53:43

you need to create your own opportunities that you can take advantage of.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:48

Yes, yes, yeah. It’s, it’s a little less common that they fall on someone’s

Nancy Phillips: 53:53

lap, not out of the blue, rarely, yes, exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:57

It’s usually a bit of, like, a cause and effect thing, or like, oh, maybe you did a piece for this one thing, and then few years down the line, someone’s like, remembering you. It’s all this person might be perfect for this thing, but you have to have had that experience first of like, having put yourself out there in the first place. No one to find your work if it’s if you’ve never put it out there,

Unknown: 54:16

right, right, right. Yes, absolutely, yes.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:22

And then I wanted to ask you, if you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist,

Nancy Phillips: 54:33

I would say, don’t give up, but have a day job, maybe not necessarily a full time day job. I mean, that’s, that’s why I chose this accounting gig, is because I could do that on freelance, on my own, you know, I have, I’ve, I worked for companies for a while, but I hated. I hated being told what to do and where to be when, and it just worked for me to be able to to have my own clients and do it when I wanted to, so that I could do other things when I needed to. And that’s just, it’s i It’s I think, particularly these days, in this day and age, it’s very difficult to be able to make enough money doing fine art to pay your bills. It’s very, very difficult. And, you know, but some people do it and, but you gotta work hard at it, and you gotta, you gotta get yourself out there and, and I think I don’t do workshops myself, although I’ve I’ve done a couple little day things with artists friends of mine, showing them, you know, how I work with encaustic on top of acrylic, on top of all the other media that I use. But I think that’s how a lot of artists are doing it these days, and it’s a great way to sell your work too. You know, I mean, people who take your workshops love your work, and, you know, put two and two together and take advantage of the opportunity.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:35

So, yeah, it’s a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s a it’s, I think it’s good to be honest with ourselves, in that sense, like how you’re saying, like, if, if living below your means isn’t necessarily a possibility, it is good to have a steady day job to help support, you know, an artistic career, in some sense. And I mean, that’s a pragmatic way to do it, so you’re not starving, unless you have really great family support, which not everyone has. But if you do, that’s awesome. That’s very lucky. Yeah. I mean, so much of being an artist is, you know, it can get really tough financially because it it, you know, again, bring it back to the resilience, resilience within your work, right? But also resilience in the fact that sales are going to go up and down, right? You’re not going to be selling all the time, and you have to be able to plan ahead for those moments where, oh my gosh, like, I haven’t sold in a few months. What can I do? And having that financial anxiety can be really, really tough for some people. So having, like you said something to fall back on that is a skill that you you’ve learned, whether it’s accounting or you know anything that is usually, I mean accounting, for sure, is always in demand. So I think that’s a very wise decision. But if someone you know doesn’t like numbers, right, finding something that they’re good at, that they know that they can put to use in those challenging moments, I think is very, very smart for sure.

Nancy Phillips: 58:13

Yes, yes. It’s necessary in this day and age, anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:20

Yeah, yeah, but, yeah. I think, you know, artists will always exist. I think we’re very stubborn people. You know, we love to do what we do, and we will find ways to do it no matter what. And that’s, I think the biggest thing when you’re an artist is just remembering, man, I love to do this, and I will find ways to do

Nancy Phillips: 58:42

it, yeah, yeah, yes. And when people buy from you, it’s, it’s very gratifying. I mean, it really, you know, is an affirmation of all of that.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:58

Yes, it really completes it. Yeah, it feels amazing, because it’s like, oh my gosh, someone actually wants this, this piece that I agonized over and cried over, and it’s awesome. Yes, awesome. Human connection is beautiful. But yeah, I am now extremely curious about encaustic. Thanks to you. I, you know, have studied a lot of in art history, and I’ve studied a lot of paintings that used encaustic and like old techniques, and I find that fascinating. So I think I will definitely reach out to you if I have any questions about encaustic, just like you know, many of our listeners,

Nancy Phillips: 59:37

YouTube, yes, source of all knowledge, source of a lot of knowledge.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:45

Oh my gosh yes, especially for less well known techniques like encaustic, or less popular, I should say, because it is so niche that you know, the people who do know, they really, really want to share this information. They i. I agree. I mean, there’s so much that can get lost over time if we don’t take care of, you know, collecting that information and spreading it out to others, it can be really, really tough. But then I’m grateful for all those people on the internet who do these niche things and like, they’re like, We need to put all of this on there, because it makes life easier for the ones who do find it like ah,

Nancy Phillips: 1:00:25

but, but beware that that encaustic has its chemical dangers too. I mean, you don’t go messing around with it without learning about because you don’t want to incorporate encaustic and thinners make really bad. They make fumes that are very toxic, so you want to have good ventilation and all that, don’t, you know, sit there in your bathroom, you know, melting wax, very bad idea. So educate yourself before you start messing around with that stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:10

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s the same with with oil paints too. I mean, you don’t want to be breathing in turpentine, no, much you don’t want to eat while you’re using lead

Unknown: 1:01:20

white, yes, yeah. So pay attention to that chemistry part, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:26

yeah, because it can be very life or death. I mean, I’ve heard of instructors that I’ve had in the past who are, you know, always using oil paint, and now they have, you know, heavy metals poisoning, or have had it, and it’s good to just avoid it in the first place. So it’s good to know, yeah, the safety precautions of encaustic, you know, kind of like how an oil paint you should never, ever, ever leave a rag crumpled up that has oil paint on it, unless you are very much wanting to burn down your own house. Yeah, yes, which I don’t think many of us do. But yes, that’s a very X point. And then, if someone wants to see your absolutely gorgeous encaustic paintings and other paintings that you’ve made, where can they go? Check them out.

Nancy Phillips: 1:02:12

I have a website, Nancy Crandall phillips.com that has all of my work on it. And also, I mean, there, you should also know, I mean, I have a friend who I helped set up a pottery studio a number of years ago, which has gotten me back into pottery. And there’s, there’s some pottery on the website too, but that’s just for fun, really, because once you’re addicted to these art, material things you can never quite get away from them. So anyway, I agree Nancy Crandall phillips.com is where, and I have an Instagram page too that I’m very bad at maintaining, but hopefully I will be better of that in the future. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:00

And then I will also include all of your links in the show notes for people to go check it out. And then if they watch the video, they will have seen your gorgeous work, which it is so nice. Please go check it out, guys. It makes you really want to try abstract because it’s just, it’s the qualities in it are. So I don’t know, there’s something very peaceful about your work that I

Nancy Phillips: 1:03:25

thank you. I feel like, like, the way my compositions work out. Usually are very sort of landscape. You know, they’re like, anyway, they’re they’re reminiscent of abstract landscapes to me in my head, but anyway, thank you very much.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:45

Well, thank you, Nancy, this was a fun conversation. I am definitely going to go investigate encaustics, and who knows, maybe I’ll start playing around with some abstract to see if I can let go of all that perfectionism that realism tends to track you too.

Nancy Phillips: 1:04:03

Contact me anytime.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:07

Yes, I will definitely keep in touch. Thanks. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.

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For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Lordier, a California-based pastel artist, mom, and former flight attendant whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life. Influenced by early California and American impressionists, Kim focuses on value, shape, and expressive color, and credits key workshops—especially learning notan and studying with mentors like Skip Whitcomb—for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her longstanding struggles with negative self-talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the “preciousness” of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative “aha” moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and “ladder” is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison, respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember there is always another canvas to paint. Finally she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops!

Kim’s FASO site:
kimfancherlordier.com

Kim’s Social Media:
instagram.com/klordierart/

facebook.com/kim.lordier

Bob Newhart’s “Stop it!”
vimeo.com/97370236

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Transcript:

Kim Lordier: 0:00

Just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through it, because there’s your way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others her in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Kim Laurier, a California based pastel artist, mom and former flight attendant, whose deep love of nature and travel strongly influences her landscape work. She began drawing and painting animals as a child, started earning money from pet portraits as a teenager, and later experienced a major turning point in 2001 when she saw a plein air demonstration and committed to painting from life influenced by early California and American impressionists. Kim focuses on value shape and expressive color, and credits key workshops, especially learning notan and studying with mentors like skip Whitcomb for sharpening her compositional and color skills. She speaks candidly about her long standing struggles with negative self talk and imposter syndrome, and how learning to detach from the preciousness of finished paintings and embrace the process has been her biggest creative aha moment. On the business side, Kim emphasizes professionalism, honoring gallery relationships, and balancing what she loves to paint with what she sells, while accepting that each artist’s journey and ladder is unique. She advises aspiring artists to trust their instincts, avoid unhealthy comparison and respect the people working behind the scenes in the art world, and remember, there is always another chemist to paint. Finally, she tells us all about her upcoming shows and workshops. Welcome Kim to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Kim Lordier: 2:13

I’m doing great. Thank you so much, Laura. I’m really honored to be here with you.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:19

Yeah, I’m excited to have you. I am so excited to pick your brain about your art, because I absolutely love your compositions so so much. And it actually, it’s one of those things where you look at it and you’re like, oh, man, this really makes me want to play. It makes me want to play with pastel. So bad, you know, coming, yeah. And that is so funny. Every pastel artist I’ve interviewed or talked to. They’re always so encouraging about trying out the medium, because it really does look magical, even though the piece that you have behind you, I’m just obsessed with the movement of tone in the sky. I’m like, yes, thank you. This is amazing. Yeah. But before we dive in more deeply into your gorgeous compositions, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Kim Lordier: 3:02

Sure, I’m a mom and a wife who probably thinks about values and color and light more than is socially acceptable. You know, when you’re out and about and people are having a conversation and you’re like staring at the, you know, the landscape, or whatever. So I wanted to be a horse trainer or a long haul trucker when I was little. I ended up being a flight attendant, which is kind of the same thing as a truck driver, only my cargo was people. I always been a road warrior. Loved to travel, particularly driving. When I was a youth. I traveled for horse shows and as a flight attendant, of course, flying around the country. And I love to drive for painting and art events, which kind of mean, a nutshell,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:01

yes, and you’re an avid outdoor sleep as well, from what I’ve seen,

Kim Lordier: 4:05

yes, I love being outside. I love Mother Nature.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:08

Yeah, yes. And I can tell because it really shows through in your work to that love for capturing just how gorgeous things can be. You know, the especially your pieces that have to, like, have this gorgeous crystalline water. I’m so obsessed with those blues. I love it. Thank you so much. Welcome. Yeah, and actually, I really wanted to know because, you know, many artists tend to do this for a very long time. We tend to have started doing this since we were children. Do you mind telling us when you began to follow the path of the artist?

Kim Lordier: 4:45

Well, I think, like many of us, including yourself, we started really young. Yeah, I was always kind of doodling in school. And, you know, first got my first. Was drawing published in a newspaper in first grade, and that my parents kept around. I had no idea until probably a few years ago, and then in fifth grade, I won an award painting or drawing a shark of all things had been, you know, spending all my little younger years drawing horses and little girls and dresses. And I kind of find out, found out early on about a connection between creating and outside acknowledgement for good or bad. You know, you know, you get that response, and that’s kind of a little bit of a dopamine rush in school when and when I was in high school, I started painting horses like with pastels. So I’ve been working with the pastel medium since I was 15, and I started doing horse and dog portraits at that age and for money. So I kind of had a taste of making money. And you know, when people would ask you to paint their horse, or that emotion that comes when they see it, you know, the painting, they’re like some people will cry and, you know, get real excited. And that was a big, I don’t know, just something that resonated with me. Then I became a flight attendant, and I was still doing the animal portraits. And then I found out, as a flight attendant, I wasn’t really a natural nurturer, so I would find myself getting the service finished and then finding an empty seat or heading up to the cockpit to go hang out so I could look outside the window and see all the beautiful, beautiful land that we were traveling over, or going, You know, flying the all nighter from San Francisco to Boston, we go over the northern pole, or towards the northern North America. And you could see the, I just remember this one time when the Northern Lights were happening and the the ground was just covered in clouds and had these popcorn explosions of of it was a big, big storm all that covered the continent or that I could see in front of me. And so you could see these just lightning flashes. And then just as the sun was just starting to create a little bit of peak on the horizon, it was just the most magical time, one of my favorite times ever flying. But it clearly wasn’t as in serving others that was, that was my, that wasn’t my forte. So, yeah, then I think this journey that I’m on now really culminated in 2001 when right around that time I was just dabbling in painting landscapes from photographs, and I saw a woman give a plein air demonstration, and I it was the first time I really felt like I had to do that. You know, when I was when I studied in school, I studied commercial illustration, and I really felt less than and not. I wasn’t competitive. I had no inner drive to pursue that way of working, and I wasn’t very good at the illustration and the it was just a competitive field when I was in that was right as computers were starting to come into into play. And it’s just a kind of an awkward way place for me. Anyway, I’m kind of jumping around here. So I had become a flight attendant, and 911 happened, and I saw this woman give a plein air demonstration. I knew in my in my gut, that I had to paint from start, painting from life. So I started taking a class from her in oil. I was still doing the animal portraits, and then I also, you know, as a flight attendant, I had the privilege of, you know, getting to see the louver and the Met and Boston Museum, and, you know, all these amazing museums. But I was really never, I loved what I saw, but was really never punched in the gut by a painting until I saw museum Oakland museum exhibition that featured the early California impressionists, and that’s the first time i. Really was kind of floored, and kind of had the wind knocked out of me. This just was everything that, you know, I love, I’d love the illustrators, and looking at the illustrators, and, you know, the the impression of French Impressionists were, it was beautiful work. But the California impressionist and then my later study into more American impressionism really just grabbed hold of me, where there’s a marriage of tone and value and shape along with broken color and the expressive brush work. And at that point in time, I, you know, I was certainly aware of Sergeant and soroya and Zorn and all those guys, but really hadn’t taken it was just kind of early on in my my creative journey. And anyway, so all of that kind of culminated around 911 and started working from life, which was a game changer for me, and things really rapidly progressed from there in terms of, I would say, the quality of my work, my passion, the fact that I started feeling like I had an actual creative bone in my body. Instead of that, I was just able to copy, copy something.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:21

Yes, yeah. And those are all really important names, and I could totally see how that would affect your work, because I think there’s something in your strokes. It’s very it’s expressionistic and impressionistic and abstract, which is very beautiful. I think some of my favorite paintings, you’re welcome. So my favorite paintings of all time have always had a very wonderful element of abstraction, so that the eye itself can kind of like work alongside the piece to complete the image. You know, what might look up close like a little blurry thing from afar is a tree. You know, the eye says, Yeah, that’s a tree. It’s like, no, it’s just a little abstract mark on the on the paper or on the canvas. And I think that’s the magic, I think, in painting. And I wanted to ask you, because I think your compositions are so wonderful. I think anyone who goes and checks out your work should definitely study how you’ve laid out your values and how you’ve laid out your colors, because there is definitely a lot of knowledge that is obvious in your work. How would you say that you developed your skill in composition, you know, like the value composition, or actual physical laying out of the elements, color, composition. What helped you develop that skill?

Kim Lordier: 12:51

I think that the way I learned to see earlier on in my journey was I started studying plein air with this woman, and she was wonderful, and I was doing it in oil with her. And then I started painting this similarly with an underpainting process that I learned painting in oil from her with my pastels. Then I took a workshop with this gentleman by the name of John Barry Raybould, who created, after I took the in on location workshop, he created, he was in the process of creating the Virtual Art Academy, which is a great resource for folks. But he, during his workshop, I was painting in oil, and he kind of had this, you know, break you down before he builds you up, kind of way of working. And he taught us this, not amp process. And if you back in, back in that time, I didn’t really hear the word notan before. And notan, for those who are not familiar with that, is a Japanese term that’s loosely translated as black and white design. And he forced us to the first two full days of the workshop was creating notions with these pens, dark light, dark value, light value, and the middle value, and then the white of the paper. And we had to create compositions with that. And then we couldn’t use any color, even when we were on the whole thing was plein air. So we were composing in black and white, and I really learned the value, ha, ha, of values. And it was, and it was, it was kind of tough, because he would give you gold stars for failing at things. Right? So he had a little sheet on every person that was taking the workshop, and you’d get a gold star for not doing well with understanding value or not understanding edges. And so I just remember, you know, feeling good when I when I got there, and then then quickly realizing that I kind of sucked at all this. But then you know, things you know, turned around. And it really, actually forced me to to really learn, instead of just kind of doing, just diving in and doing, and I think that was the biggest, the biggest thing. And then I kind of took that and started breaking apart. You know, my favorite artists work, living and deceased that way, and understanding that really simplifying shape and values had a great deal of impact from across the room. And that’s kind of what I carry on in, how what I teach in during, you know, my workshops. And then, you know, just building on all of that that I learned really early on. And then, you know, my I took one workshop in pastel. I’ve only had about four or five over the course of my career that I’ve taken but my first workshop was with an amazing past Ellis and oil painter. His name is Lorenzo Chavez, and I remember going up to taking a five day workshop with him on location in Tucson. I’m from California, where it was all big oak, dark oak trees and dense shadows, and out in a Tucson desert, it was so aired, I felt like I was painting a Mars and had no relationship. So I really had to think about, instead of big, dark shapes, you know, how do you compose in terms of value, you know, in a higher key environment? And that kind of led me down a different path. And then a key layer in my journey was is continued to this day as Skip Whitcomb, who’s a pasoli oil painter and a mentor, an amazing, gifted artist, and the most generous soul with His knowledge and he’s had a I just recently, I think, you know, we never stopped learning. I just recently took a an online course with him called orchestrated color through the Tucson Art Academy, which has just been a tremendous joy for me to explore color. Color has always been very intuitive to me. I think color has been intuitively a strength of mine, that that I’ve always had fun with, but just actually learning more about color theory has been really a great asset and confidence builder, and has been really fun. We never stop learning. You know, continued, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 18:29

yeah, exactly, yeah. I was literally going to say the same thing, how with any craft, it’s, it’s more than a lifetime of things to continue to learn and expand within. So I find that’s one of the only reasons I would ever want to become a vampire, is to just have endless time to really hone a craft. Because even Michelangelo, when he was in his 80s, said, like, I’m finally learning, you know, like I’m getting somewhere, like, Oh no, don’t say that. Yeah. And I really find it cool that your instructor would put a gold star for a failure. Because I think at first it can be kind of jarring. It was very Yeah, yeah, because I can imagine, it’s like, congrats, you failed. It’s like, Oh, thanks. But I think failure is so important. I think we all have such a negative view of it, and that’s normal, I think because we are so used to the whole like being punished for failure, but in the sense of creative work, failure is so important. I think, yeah, you can’t, you can’t grow without messing it up, you know, like, and I think that’s one of the hard parts about being a working artist as well, because you try to sell work, you know, you try to create things so that you can put it in a gallery, and then it goes to solve. One’s home and it’s loved forever. But I think in order to get to that point, you have, you know, a lot of artists, me included, of course, we have to accept that not every piece is going to be nice, but that piece will lead to a better piece, usually, hopefully, fingers crossed,

Kim Lordier: 20:17

yes, and sometimes it’s, it’s the pieces that we love the most, that receive the least amount of outside acknowledgement, or whatever you want to, but I found that the paintings that you know I that really have resonated during my journey have always been because, in hindsight, because I’ve learned something, I tried something new that I was happy with. You know, it was had it was kind of successful in in my eyes, but really in the larger picture scheme of things, that was why I loved it was because I learned something, and I’m like, Hey, I got, you know, I just added another tool to my toolbox. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good painting or a solid painting, so I’ve kind of had to learn that,

Laura Arango Baier: 21:12

yeah, yeah. And I think that’s also why there’s a bit of a balance, I don’t know if you’ve experienced this too, where, when you make a painting, sometimes, especially, I think, I think it especially happens for the rest of one’s life, which is, you start a painting and you think, this is the one, this is going to be a masterpiece. Or, like, you feel like you have this like, Oh, I’m totally going to make this amazing. And then, of course, you get shot down by the reality, which is, it’s always a work in progress. You know, your works develop as much as you continue to develop as a person and as a crafts person as well. And yeah, it just the quicker you can understand that as you know, as an artist, one can understand it as an artist, the better it is. Because, like you said, you might have these exercise pieces or these pieces that you know you were hoping would be a masterpiece, but instead they were a lesson. And it’s so beautiful to have those lessons and to look back, you’re like, Man, I, as much as I suffered through this painting. And I think that’s one of those things where, like you really do suffer as an artist. So sometimes you just, you suffer so much through your work, but then once it’s over, and you can set it aside, and you look back on it, it’s like, Man, I overcame this. And I think that’s, that’s the part that I’ve also been trying to really focus on when I’m doing a really difficult piece or trying to overcome a really difficult problem is I find more satisfaction in solving and overcoming now than I used to before. I don’t know if you relate to that. Yes, it’s less satisfying now to actually get it right the first time.

Unknown: 22:58

Yes, I agree. I

Laura Arango Baier: 23:01

agree, yeah. And I wanted to ask you now, because it kind of ties in really well with asking you about if you’ve had any recent aha moments, or if you have you had like, a like, what’s your biggest aha moment that you’ve had over your creative work?

Kim Lordier: 23:20

I think the biggest aha moment i I’ve had was when I gave up. I gave up worrying about the end result or the finished product, when I took the preciousness out of what I do and realize that it’s really, truly about the process that gives me the greatest joy. It’s the doing of it, the being there, that that zen like state that you end up in when the whole world goes away and you’re one with your pigments. I mean, that’s really cool. And you know, when I when I gave that up, when I gave up the feeling that I had to create a painting, I realized that there’s always another canvas to fill. There’s always another piece of paper to have. And, you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, like, knock on wood, you know, if I were to have a studio fire or something catastrophic happen to my beautiful space that I love to be in, I think I’d be, I mean, it would be horrible, you know. And I know this has happened to people, but I just know that I have the capacity of creating more, and that is a beautiful thing to be able to sit with, but I don’t wish that upon anybody or you know that’s not what I’m trying to get at after here, but it’s just. That I love the doing. I love being out on location with my feet, my toes sunk in the sand and while I’m painting at the beach, or, you know, having climbed in, you know, miles up into the Eastern Sierras to to go paint with my friends. And there’s just nothing greater than that for me, other than being a mom and a wife, of course, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 25:29

yeah, totally Yeah. It’s living in the moment and just experiencing life, you know,

Unknown: 25:34

yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:37

Because I mean, oh yeah, go for it, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 25:39

Sorry. I had one more thing that was kind of an aha moment on a different scale, or on a different in a different way. I had great advice early on in my career from John Stern, who is the Director Emeritus of the Irvine Museum in Southern California. And I remember, I’m from Northern California in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I remember, you know, traveling down So Cal to go see an exhibition of the early California impressionist which is his one of his fortes, and what the museum, you know, their permanent collection, has an amazing early California Impressionist Collection. I remember, I met him really early on in my career, and he became, he became a mentor and a great supporter of my work. He, he and his beautiful wife, Linda, purchased one of my paintings and or, and they became collectors. Anyway, I remember he took me around and talked to me about the the current show that was up. And then we went back to his office, and we were just chatting. And I, you know, being a past Ellis at that point in time, you know, I kind of had that wiffle waffle, and I asked them, you know, John, should I be painting an oil to be considered a real artist? I know my friends are going to roll their eyes at this. And and he goes, Kim, you know you’re doing beautiful work. And make your mark. Make your mark in your medium. And it was, it was great, great. Very sounded advice. And I took that and rolled with it, and that was that was amazing. And one other thing that an art kind of an AHA thing that helps me move me forward through my journey, was I was also kind of lamenting the fact that our art community up here, at least for representational art, is not as prolific as the community is in Southern California, in my opinion. And I, you know, I remember saying to him, I wish, I wish I lived down there so I could be, you know, closer to the things that are, you know, the events and the people and stuff like that. He goes, Don’t be in a hurry. Or it was more than that. It was also, you know, being represented by galleries and about getting into bigger shows. You know that that hunger that we have as when we’re young and, you know, wanting to climb a proverbial ladder, and he told me, he says, Don’t be, don’t be in a hurry for what you think you really want, because that journey leads to, you know, galleries and shows and deadlines leads to time away for the the creative process of experimenting. And you know that that giving yourself time and grace to go play. And that’s that’s a whole journey in of itself, and and that really resonated with me, and I’ve tried very hard to keep my creative process separate from my marketing and business side of what I do, I think that keeping those things separate, I mean, they truly overlap, but keeping them separate as as much as you possibly can is really, really important. And I appreciate John for his advice way back then, because it’s really helped. I think stabilize. That doesn’t mean it’s gone away. You know that balance is, you know, tough,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:45

yeah, yeah. And I love that you mentioned that, because I’ve also heard that that piece of advice, which I’ve heard a couple people say, it is, enjoy your anonymity, yeah, especially at the beginning. As an artist, I think it’s also in reference to anyone who’s in a creative career, because early on, you’re not tied down by anything like you said. You’re not tied down by deadlines or by the calendar or by the 20 workshops that you might have signed up to teach out of excitement, and before you realize it, it’s, you know, it’s been a year or two or three, and you feel like, oh, man, I haven’t really advanced in in my creative work, right? Like it’s so important, like you said, to have that compartmentalization where, like, you know, you can schedule your experimental work because it and that kind of reminds me of this thing, which is like, there’s things, especially, like you said, you know, when you’re early in your career and you’re hungry, right? As an artist, there’s the things we think we want, and then there’s the thing we the things we actually want, right? So, and sometimes we don’t realize it, right? We don’t realize that the thing we actually want is to just keep creating. And we think we want gallery representation. And this actually leads perfectly into my next question about, you know, having this, I like to call it a Venn diagram, like I mentioned to you before, where we have the Venn diagram of what you want to paint and what sells. And then, for some people, the crossover between those two circles might be really, really narrow, and for some people, it might almost be a complete circle. How do you balance for yourself, creating the work that you want to create, and creating the work that will sell?

Kim Lordier: 31:39

Well, I feel really blessed that I still am passionate and love to paint mother nature in all her glory. So it feels natural to continue to feed the folks who run the amazing galleries that I’m in with the work that inspires me. I I feel extremely fortunate that, I mean, I’m one of my most spiritual places to be is Point Lobos in Carmel, or just south of Carmel, California. It’s along the California coast, and I’ve been represented by two amazing galleries down there, and Jim reserve fine art, who closed his doors because he retired a few a few years ago. And then I’m now down there with Laura Lai and at Carmel fine art, and I’ve always known that if and when that area doesn’t speak to anymore, then I know I have to part ways, because, you know that’s what they want. And our gallery owners that represent us, you know, they have their own esthetic vision and what’s important to them. So I feel blessed that, you know, that’s been a place that I revisit over and over again, that that whole, our whole coastline and the California landscape. So you know, that is, that has been, that has been the easy part. I think a difficult part for me has been, you know, when I travel outside my state and am so inspired by the landscape and the environment and the people, and I’m blessed to be in a few galleries outside my state, in Montana, at alume Gallery, and in Colorado at Wild Horse. And you know, trying to stay true to their vision and and you know, keeping my best work, you know, for them, they all want your best work, and it’s, you know, we don’t always have, we don’t always have our very best work available, because we’re still working so hard to to get to that point. I guess I think that. I think the takeaway is respecting your galleries and respecting the folks that run them, because they have their own vision. And if you’re if you’re not willing to compromise, I don’t happen to be in a position where I could just dictate what it is that I want to paint. I and you know, if you’re in that position, you know, with somebody representing you, oh, and my Hughes Skelly gallery too, down in Balboa Island, you. They all have their own vision. So if you don’t resonate with what they’re wanting, then it’s time to be professional and excuse yourself or have that conversation with you know, are you? Are you willing to carry some something else that I’m Are you willing to try something new with my work? You know, have the conversation and and being open and professional with them is really important.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:28

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Unknown: 37:08

I don’t know if I actually answered your question.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:12

Oh, you did. I think, I think you definitely did. Okay, good. Because, you know, I’ve heard a lot of artists refer to like relationships of galleries, almost like a marriage or a very, very long term friendship that you have to nurture. And you know, sometimes you have to part ways, or sometimes you have to grow together. And I think that’s a very important, like I said, important conversation to have, because as artists, we’re not just like for the most part. We’re not just this stagnant brand, right? We’re humans who are continuing to grow, and maybe at one point you’re exploring a particular type of subject matter, and then suddenly, as time goes on, you realize, man, I really want to explore this other subject matter, but this gallery in particular, I’m afraid that maybe they won’t take a risk on this new subject matter. Or, you know, how do I discuss it with them? Should I find another gallery for this other subject matter? Because there’s also, like, I think many of us artists, we’re lucky, of course, because I mean living from making beautiful paintings is it’s an incredible blessing. So you know, to maintain that blessing, you also have to realize when you don’t want it to become laborious, in the same sense that you know, if you’re going to suffer through forcing yourself to do something the same way you would an office job, you might as well get an office job. Because, yeah, at least the office job gives you a an actual paycheck in a constant manner. Yes, which is very rough when you’re an artist. Trying to go at it. So, yeah, there’s a bit of a balance. And then if you can, like, you said, if there’s a way to make it more enjoyable for yourself or your painting, like, I’ve heard artists say, like, yeah, you know, I stick to the to, you know, figuring out the stuff that I want to do. And then the gallery says, Hey, can you paint us three more sunsets? I will do it because I know it gives me the paycheck that I need to be able to sit and continue with my experimental work. So it’s, yeah, it’s a balance, hopefully, like I said, that Venn diagram is just a circle, though, for a lot of people, right? But when it isn’t, you got to find ways to supplement, and that’s just the, you know, tough part of being an artist, unless you’re a ridiculously wealthy person already, you know,

Unknown: 39:52

that would be okay. Oh, that’d be great.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:54

Yeah. I would just paint whatever the heck I want and start my own gallery.

Kim Lordier: 40:00

It. Be careful starting your own gallery. That’s a

Laura Arango Baier: 40:03

lot of work. Girl, yes, it is. Yeah. Okay, there you go. I would totally hire people. Oh, man, but I wanted to ask you now, since we’re on a little bit more of the topic of business, when you were still a flight attendant, right? What was that like for you when you decided to shift over to your creative work? What was that like for you?

Kim Lordier: 40:34

It was, I mean, the whole world, and most particularly the United States, you know, there, there was a catastrophic, catastrophic event that happened. And the decision was not difficult. It was like, you know, I, I mentioned earlier, I’m not a natural nurturer. I was, I ended up being a flight attendant because I’m very grateful that my dad was is a right retired captain for a major airline, and when I got out of school, that I’m so thankful that they were able to help me get through college. You know, I flew for the about 12 years. And then 911 happened. And you know, that was, that was a wake up call for a lot of people, the horror of it, and then the Life is short, part of and I, I don’t even want to say this, but the the silver lining around such a horrible event was such that the I went back and flew for about the month of October, after they let that the airs that planes back up In the air, and nobody was flying, and the the airline said, Hey, we’re asking for volunteer furloughs. And I raised my hand because I wasn’t going to lose any seniority, nor was I going to lose my medical benefits. I was going to lose a paycheck, or I lost it pay my paycheck. But it was an opportunity to see if I could do this full time, and I did, and I’ve never looked back, and I’m so grateful for the the opportunities that have come my way since since then but it was, it was, it was a safety net and so that that’s kind of how that that happened for me. I just, I made the choice and never looked back, because, and I feel strongly, you know that you know we are meant to go down a path and the doors open when you know when they’re supposed to So,

Unknown: 43:13

anyway, so that’s, that’s it was. It was quick. And fast is what it was.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes life can be that way. It really becomes a moment where you have this very obvious turning point where it’s like, it’s now or never. Because, like you said, Life is short. You never know, yeah, what’s going to happen tomorrow? We can, we can think that tomorrow’s sunrise is, you know, short for us. But it’s not always the case, and I feel the same way, you know, I try to be like, is this an opportunity that if I don’t take it, I’ll regret forever? If the answer is yes, I’m just going to do it right, yeah? Because yeah, like we said earlier, you only live once, and you got to take that opportunity, if it’s the one that you think is right for you. I’m guessing though, that in that time when you were furloughed, you just focused on making work. Did you also focus like, did you already have galleries that you were talking to or were working with? Or did you have to rebuild that and like, No,

Kim Lordier: 44:19

make right around. Yes, sorry for talking right around that time, it was a lot of things happened all at the same time I mentioned earlier, you know, I saw that the early California Impressionists started painting, painting from life in, you know, 2009 11 happened, and I was, had already been in my first I was invited to be in a cooperative Gallery, and so I was kind of seeing what that what that felt like being in a gallery. You know, when I was I’ve never. Pre that as a goal to be in galleries. I didn’t have a clear vision of what my creative journey was going to be like, you know, moving forward. And so I was, I was already in the Portola Art Gallery at that time, and shoot, I forgot what your question was.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:24

If you know you’re good, it’s only if you continued, or, like, when you were furloughed, how you managed to, like, you know, get back into or, like, start working with galleries and like, oh,

Kim Lordier: 45:33

right, right. Okay, yeah, yeah. Thank you for the the prompt we let’s see, started working from life to 2001 2002 you know, I’m learning my craft and working, or being in the involved with that gallery, and then I end up getting pregnant. And then my very first, my very first plenary event was Carmel fine art, and I was six months pregnant, and I remember slipping around out in Carmel in the sand dunes with my big belly and my art gear and painting and it was a great experience. And I continued to do plenary events, which is kind of how I got my voice, my work out there, and the galleries I had, I just had I’ve been so blessed my gallery in Carmel. Jim approached me during an event down in the Laguna, Laguna planer painters Invitational, way back in 2005 he goes, I really love your work, Kim. And would you be interested in me representing you up in Carmel? And so, you know, I ended up there bringing him a body of work, and so that, that has been a blessing. Gosh darn it. I forgot what the what your question was. Again,

Laura Arango Baier: 47:21

backwards. And 10 in time, you’re good, you’re good. It’s, yeah, it’s just how you built up, you know, your art career after, yeah, yeah.

Kim Lordier: 47:29

So it’s been, it was, you know, I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I’ve been a part of, I’ve been part of, I think, like a lot of us, throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium. We have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they’re a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows so my dealers and shows that I’ve participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base, and that’s probably that’s been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know my friends, people that are who maybe listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there’s no one way through this, because there’s there’s just, there’s Your Way, and it’s not the same as anybody else’s. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work again. Remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important, but I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else’s ladder. Relish your own climb, and don’t be in a hurry to get. The top of your ladder, because that’s when it’s time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke. That’s so corny.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:10

Oh no, but it’s, can’t believe I said that, and it’s a great point. I think it’s, I think I was mentioning this earlier too, like, how, ah, you know, there’s something about making work that also speaks to yourself, right? It’s the work that you care about. Because if you’re painting, you know, someone else’s work, right, you’re imitating someone else, which is totally fine. I mean, we all start with imitation, to some extent. That’s how we learn to write, that’s how we learn language and art being a language, that’s how we learn to paint and express ourselves. But if that’s all you’re doing, using climbing someone else’s ladder, you’re setting yourself up for failure. I mean, yeah, there’s, after so many years of betraying yourself like that, right? Betraying the actual deep message, the ones that come through, you’re gonna feel empty. You’re gonna feel you know, it’s, it’s inevitable, because it’s not your dream, right?

Kim Lordier: 51:16

And and also, climbing summit, I think, I think about climbing somebody else’s ladder is where it’s more about comparing your journey to somebody else’s, where you see somebody being real successful, and you get frustrated because you’re not climbing the rungs the same way as that other person. And so being aware that it’s, it’s your own journey that is that you need to just to stay in and relish and I think, yeah, no, it’s your personal ladder to climb, not not somebody else’s, and to do your best to keep the comparison out of it, because it’s so easy to compare. And you know, if you’re not getting into shows and you’re not getting acknowledgement, that doesn’t mean that your work’s bad, awful or a failure, it just means that that’s just somebody else’s opinion, and the most important opinion is how you feel about your own process. The takeaway, I think, is that if you’re not in love with your own process, then none of the rest of it matters, not the likes, not the hearts, not the followers. None of that matters if you don’t love what you’re doing, and it’s doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to follow the path of how you see somebody else, quote, unquote, making it, because you also don’t know what’s behind the scenes of that artist’s dialog that they say to themselves, that’s a whole nother thing. You know your internal dialog that happens? You know, I have a lot of negative dialog that has run throughout my journey, and that whole feeling of that imposter syndrome, too is a big has been run all through and still does to this day, little little devil on my shoulder that I’m like That flick off, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:18

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, totally. And that’s why, you know, it’s if you have the devil on one side right, telling you all these horrible things, which most of us artists do, it’s better to just, like, go listen to the other side, little angel on the other side, and, like, try to pay attention to that a little bit more. You know, to some extent, it is good to be aware of where you can improve, but not to the point where you’re crying yourself to sleep every night. Absolutely, yeah, and I love that you mentioned, you know, not, not chasing someone else’s, you know, like level of success, or how quickly they’ve ascended, because that’s just their path. You know, you can’t, yeah, sometimes life will throw you into an even more amazing path than you can ever imagine. And that’s why to it, yes, yeah, you have to stay open to that. Yeah, stay receptive and open, because you like a little bit like I said earlier, there’s what you think you want, and then there’s life surprising you with something even more grand or something even more magical that like you’re, I don’t know, 1820, year old self could never have imagined. Because life, of course, continues and keeps going and going. And when you think you’ve seen it all, and you think you know it all, it surprises you again with something even nicer and even more amazing, truth. Yeah, true, yeah. And actually, I did also want to ask you, since we’re on the topic of, you know, like, some of the difficulties of being an artist, besides, you know, the creative aspect, financial aspect, and. What do you what would you say is one of the hardest things about being a full time artist that no one really talks about.

Kim Lordier: 55:08

Um, all I can speak is for from my own journey, and we’ve already, kind of, I already touched upon it, and that’s been a, you know, an a negative internal dialog that I’ve, I’ve battled since, you know, since college, I remember, you know, I studied commercial illustration, and I cut my way through classes because I never felt good enough. And it was very competitive. There was a lot of in a lot of ways, you know, what I felt? It doesn’t necessarily mean it was actually what was happening, but it’s how I felt. But the you know, the harsh critiques, the never feeling like I could draw well enough, like comparing myself to the other people around me. It was a and that I built on that, and still to this day, I kind of battle with that. You know, not again. It’s the comparing that is always going to take, tear you down. It’s not going to keep you, it’s not going to it’s not going to allow you to rise up. So, you know that imposter syndrome? You know, when the successes that I’ve been truly, amazingly Blessed with over the years in my journey, I’ve had some, you know, some wonderful things happen. And basil, you’re like, Is it for real? You know, did you know that I just, Is that for real? You know? And it still amazes me, you know, today, when something beautiful happens, such as this conversation that we’re I’m allowed to have with you and share my journey with you and whoever’s maybe listening, I remember, Oh, back, I don’t know, 10 years ago or so, I was been part of a major national Show, and the curator of the show is she, what is, is a force and an amazing woman in her own right. But I remember her sharing with me, you know, bring me something different, send me something different than what you normally do. This is, this is a place to try something new, and then she invited me to channel another artist’s work, and it threw me for a loop. And it really tapped into she had no idea. She had no clue, but it tapped me into, like, a couple year, I don’t know, sadness wrapped around what I was doing in that I it tapped into all the negative things that I’ve been saying about myself, to myself quietly, that I wasn’t good enough, that I needed to do things differently. I needed to paint differently, be somebody else I wasn’t good enough, that she never said that, but that’s she just pushed that that trigger for me, and it took me a couple of years, really, to get out of it. And funny enough, she’s the same person that I had a conversation with, and I call it my vomitus interruptus moment, where I was talking to her on the phone. She lived in a different state. For me, I had one of those not pouring out of my nose, hiccuping crying sessions on the phone with this professional woman. I can’t believe I’m sharing this with you guys, with you. And she literally said, Kim, I’m clearing my desk for me, for you right now, because I was just like beside myself, and I let it all out, all the insecurities, all the blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just was a cathartic moment and and it was amazing that happened with the same person who, who was slightly the devil on my shoulder, you know, even though she had no idea until then, anyway. And it was a it was all me. It had nothing to do with her. It had nothing to do with her. It was all my all my shit. Use my language, but that’s the truth. Sorry for my potty mouth, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:51

Oh no, you’re good. You’re good. It is warranted. It does feel that way, and I relate so hard to that I think I’ve. Had much like you. You know, those moments of mirroring my own pain, suffering and security onto someone else who really reflects it very clearly, even though they don’t realize it. I’ve also had those moments, and they become almost like a symbol for that pain and that frustration. And of course, I’ve also had my breakdowns about it because it I think one of the hard things too about being an artist is sometimes like, again, you think you want something, and then turns out the thing you actually want has to kind of like surface over time, and I felt that way very much about going to academic school, where I always tried so so hard to fit in. I tried so hard to, you know, fit in with my peers and be admired also by my peers. And it just never freaking worked. And it came to the point where I realized, man, I you know, it’s like a square peg in a round hole. You know, there comes a point where you just can’t force yourself to fit into a mold that just isn’t for you. And the quicker you realize, man, important, yeah, I need to just let myself use these tools that I’ve gained from, you know, learning these skills, and apply them in a way that makes me happy, and get myself out of this bubble that I’ve decided I should fit into, right? And that’s been the hardest thing to deal with. And I, you know, here in your your experience, it’s like off, man, I resonate so hard with that little devil. Yeah, oh, you’ll, you’ll never be able to do this. Or, Oh, you keep failing at this one thing that all your peers can do already. Or, like, you know, just stuff like that.

Kim Lordier: 1:01:53

Yeah, yes. Oh, stop it. You said, stop it. There’s that I just have to share this really quickly. I was working on a lecture that I had mentioned earlier, and I had a friend, Susan, who was helping me along with it. She was she’d kind of edit and stuff like that. And so self I’ve had to work on being less self deprecating verbally and also saying apologizing for everything, which is kind of a thing that I’ve done forever. I’m so much better at it. But Susan helped me, because she made me listen to this Bob Newhart one of his comedy sessions where he’s a psychiatrist, and for those folks who are listening to this and you have if, if you find yourself apologizing or consistently or being self deprecated, or find something that you’re repeating that drives yourself Crazy, check out his episode called stop it because it is hilarious. And the stop it is a is a term or a phrase that I now use for myself to help, help me stop it. I promise you guys,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:20

yeah, no, I’m gonna link it into the show notes. So are very other listeners might also check it out. I think it’s so funny because I didn’t realize that you were gonna say stop it, and I was literally just saying, like, stop it. So now I want to watch it so I can Yeah, it’s hilarious. Yeah, that’s a

Kim Lordier: 1:03:41

great way to reinforce that. And it’s, you know, psychologically, it shuts the brain down. You know, when you say, stop it, you’re, you know, it’s like, it’s like, it stops that cycle.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:53

So, yeah, yeah, because it’s so easy to just get caught in that loop, yeah, it just repeats itself, yeah. And then it feeds itself too, which is awful. It’s why it’s so hard to break it. But yeah, totally. I know you’ve also given a ton of advice here, but do you have any final advice for someone out there who wants to make a living for being an artist?

Kim Lordier: 1:04:17

Um, I guess I have a couple things that I’d like to share, if that’s okay. I think, I think it’s super, super important to be professional in every element of the business side of what we do. I know that’s pretty silly to say, but having been on the receiving end of shows, and, you know, doing a little bit of volunteer work that I have done, and realizing that people don’t read their prospectuses all the way through and follow. Follow. You know what’s going to help the volunteers and the folks behind the scene that are working their tails off for you to submit your painting to a show. Just so always read and follow your prospect prospectuses. Honor the deadlines. Don’t be one of those that don’t be an artist cat where you have to be chased down to get what the folks that are working hard need to get to put the show on. I recommend be proactive about pursuing your own like articles. I was the my very first article that I had in the pastel journal, which is when I was pregnant or had just had Ryan, was came from me, because at that point, I’m so old that people weren’t writing about motherhood and being artists, that you wouldn’t find articles like that in magazines. And I approached the editor and asked if we could do, if there could be a, you know, an article written about, you know, being pregnant or and she, like, grabbed it. She said, Yeah, let’s do it. And so I was able to kind of be a part of my first article. So know that if you have an idea or you’re seeing something that’s important to you, that’s not being written about, it’s fair game to go approach an editor or say, Hey, I’ve got this idea. Write it yourself. The new ideas are always out are always out there. So again, respect the volunteers working behind the scenes. You know, I think you mentioned, you know, how to approach galleries and stuff like that. That’s a hard, kind of a hard thing. I’ve been very fortunate to have not really had to go down that path yet. I’m sure that will, that will happen in my future, but I think it’s things are so much different now. You know, going in with a portfolio, and assuming that there’s so many artists out there now and so few galleries, and they’re closing fast that you know, if you find a space that you really want to be a part of, go be a part of the community. First, go introduce yourself to the gallery and get to know what the space is all about. And for every individual artist out there, there’s an individual, individual gallery owner who has their own creative vision, and it doesn’t always mean that your work is going to fit in with their space. They’ll get to know what that is. And I have kind of some personal advice, especially now, our world is constantly changing, and I feel very strongly that happen. Happiness comes from within. It doesn’t come from likes or hearts or your followers. And I, I think it’s so important to trust your instincts, your instincts as they will lead to solid work that will then lead to doors opening down the path that you are meant to walk, not somebody else. And I think I said it earlier, but remember that there’s always another canvas to paint on.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:44

Yes, yes, I’m so so so happy that you mentioned trusting yourself, because that really ties into everything that we’ve been talking about. Because even just like you said, you know, if you lost everything in a fire, you have to trust that all of the work that you’ve done, it wasn’t just a fluke, right? It came from you, and you can do it again. And building that self trust is so important as an artist is trusting that, hey, I can figure this out. I might not know what the heck is going on? I might not know what the problem is right now, but I can trust my my skills and myself and what I’m capable of to figure it out, because Absolutely, that’s all you can really do. Yeah, absolutely won’t have all the answers, but you can try darn hard to try to get them. Yeah, and then I wanted to ask you also, because I absolutely love your work, and I think you know anyone out there should go check it out. Do you have any upcoming exhibitions or shows or workshops that you would like to tell us about?

Kim Lordier: 1:09:58

Sure, let’s see. I. I will be I just finished teaching a workshop couple weeks ago. I do about two a year, maybe sometimes three, but my next workshop will be in Boise, Idaho, and the end of September, beginning of October, and it’s through the pastel society of the West Coast. I’m really excited to get up in that neck of the woods and and play, and then I’ll be judging. There’s a plein air event in Eagle, Idaho that I’ll be judging. That event kind of during the same time. I’ve got an upcoming show that I’m very honored to be a part of in Ojai, California. It’s called Ojai Ojai Mystique at the Ojai Valley Museum, and there’s 19 nationally renowned artists that’ll be that’ll have a major studio piece and a planar piece, and that’s going to be this coming April. I think it opens the 17th and runs through the beginning of August. I think I am brand new and very excited and truly honored to be part of the planner painters of America. They’re one of the first pioneer painting groups in the United States, and they’re having a show at the Thunderbird foundation of arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, called Heart of America. And it’s let me see my notes. I wrote the notes down here, coast to coast, inspiration from America’s premier outdoor painting group, and that’ll be in May, and opens the 15th at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio. And then excited to be going back there again for a show in September with my wild women group. I’m part of seven other amazing women artists. We had a dynamite show that opened last summer at a loom gallery in Montana, and now we’re going to have our second show at the Maynard Dixon Gallery and studio with my my buddies. I’m going to list them, Shannon Coots, Elizabeth Robbins, Laurie McNee, Stephanie, marzella, Cindy Baier and Ramona youngquist. And I think most of them have Faso websites, so we can find, if I say their names, you can find them on Fine Art Studio online, and, yeah, I’m represented in with my glorious I galleries in Carmel at Carmel fine art, Hugh Skelly gallery in bellboy Island, which is in California, Holton frames and studio, which is in Berkeley, California, wild horse gallery in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, ILLUM gallery West in Montana, and the Thunderbird Foundation for the Arts in Mount Carmel, Utah, that’s a lot.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:29

Yeah, work, yeah, yes. And then, do you mind telling us what your website is?

Kim Lordier: 1:13:37

Oh, yes. It’s way too long to spell out, but it’s my maid, my my maiden name and my married name. It’s Kim Fancher laurier.com and it takes you to the Fine Art Studio Online website that I have. But if you just Google my name, Kim Lordy, a because of Faso, it comes right to the top of of the of the the search engine, which I’m really grateful and then I’m on Instagram and Facebook. Instagram’s K Laurier art, and then Facebook is, I think, Kim dot Laurier. So there you have it. Awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:20

Yeah. Well, I will also be including all your links in the show notes so people can check out your gorgeous work. And of course, if they watch the video, they will see how beautiful your work is. And I’m so grateful to have had you on the show. Kim, thank you so so much.

Kim Lordier: 1:14:34

Thank you for having me, Laura. I really I’m very honored and appreciate this time and the opportunity, and I’m excited for your personal journey down your creative path. So thank you for sharing a tiny bit of that with me, of

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:50

course, and thank you for being, honestly, a lot of inspiration that I think I really needed so good. Yeah. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.