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Francien Krieg - Do Artists Dream of AI Art?

The BoldBrush Show: Episode #54

Show Notes:

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On today's episode, we sat down with Francien Krieg, a Dutch oil painter who specializes in celebrating the beauty of the aging female body. Aside from that, Francien is also an NFT artist and has also begun using AI art in the past year. For this reason, we discussed why she started using AI art, what she recommends for anyone intersted in trying it out, the possibilities of using AI for painting references, and why she thinks AI art is actually going to boost the love of traditional painting rather than destroy it. Finally, we talked about her upcoming AI Art exhibition in NYC!

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Francien Krieg: 0:00

And in the beginning, I was you know, full of anger, to be honest. So I started exploring it out of anger, because I get the idea that it was very easy to create a i. And they presented like there really are this, you know, I'm just being honest about it. And I'm a an artist for 25 years, you know, working hard to get some kind of technique and level and it felt so unfair that suddenly everybody can become an artist. Just type in a few words, and you can create something. And but I don't know, somewhere along the line, I started to enjoy it. And I saw the possibilities of it. Yeah, I saw so much potential and I started to explore and it's addictive.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:44

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We're a podcast that covers art marketing techniques, and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers as well as others are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. On today's episode, we sat down with Francine Creek, a Dutch oil painter who specializes in celebrating the beauty of the aging female body. Aside from that Francine is also an NFT artist. AMP has also begun using AI art in the past year. For this reason, we discussed why she started using AI art, what she recommends for anyone interested in trying it out the possibilities of using AI for painting references, and why she thinks AI art is actually going to boost the love of traditional painting rather than destroy it. And finally, we talked about her upcoming AI art exhibition in New York City. All right, hello, Francine. And welcome to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Francien Krieg: 1:55

Hi, Laura. Yes, I'm doing fine. Thank you so much for asking me again. Second time.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:03

Second time, but it's just us too. Um, and it's about something very interesting. Yeah, very different from last time last time. For our listeners who don't know, Francine Clint and I spoke about NF Ts, which is, gosh, we got so much great information in that one. So if anyone's interested in NF T's go check it out. But today, we are talking about AI art, which I'm so excited about because it tickles my brain. I know for a lot of artists, it's become very divisive. I don't think I don't think either way. I think it's very neutral thing. But um, before we dive into AI, art and the complexities, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Francien Krieg: 2:47

Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I'm hosting. I'm from the Netherlands. I'm a Dutch artist. I studied monumental art in The Hague. But that's a long time ago. But since 25, five years, I'm a painter. Yeah, pretty much traditional painter painting the human body. My main subject is the aging process of the older women, which I find very fascinating, and also very scary. So it's a bit of a sort of self portraits, actually. And have been painting ever since full time here in my studio in small town, in the middle of the country.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:24

Love this. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And I'm so curious about your background, as as you know, studying monumental art. Do you feel that you have because we were just talking before we began the podcast about how, you know, the academics are very much focused on, you know, just technique, technique technique. Whereas monumental doesn't, do you mind telling us a bit about that?

Francien Krieg: 3:46

Yeah, monumental art was mostly sitting alone in a small space. And I had to, like, think really hard about a concept is actually to make art for public space. That is the direction of the art. But it was also making installations, 3d objects, animations, it could be anything actually, could be performance art, I did all of that. It was completely different from what I'm doing now. But it was also very much about the human body, which I'm using now as a concept in my painting. So that is what is so great that I really learned to, to dig deep into myself what I want to express with my arts and that was so valuable for me as education, but it was mostly a lot of thinking a lot of writing about it thinking thinking and then make something but I missed I missed creating too much. So after I graduated, I couldn't wait to just be more direct with ZBrush on the canvas. It's I enjoy that much more.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:54

Yes, yeah. And it's very fulfilling, and I feel like you were able to get that you know, Oh, God, that sight that a lot of people struggle to get, which is the figuring out your why and like, Why do I even do this? What do I enjoy about this? And what do I really want to say with my work with? That is so important?

Francien Krieg: 5:14

Yeah. And I think this why? Because for 50, more than 50 years, I'm painting this, you know, the aging older body. I think I'm keep doing that. Not quitting that subject, even though a lot of people find it difficult. You know, it's not very commercial work. It's not easy. But because I'm so glad you said it's what I want to tell that I keep going. Yeah, so that's, that's the value of it, I think. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:41

Yeah. And you know what, I think maybe those people who feel uncomfortable or maybe don't like the work is because they're afraid of aging.

Francien Krieg: 5:50

I'm pretty sure I think I feel almost like my mission to keep push it in the face of people and also show that this can be beautiful and ageing body and so that we are so conditioned our minds of what a woman's body should look like. And so I feel like a little bit of a feminist to show different sides of, of the female body. But yeah, it's also confronting it's not always a beautiful older woman What I'm showing it's also has something something ugly, I think, even in its if, yeah, if I can use it, use that word. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the harsh reality. It is.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:31

Yeah. But also, I mean, I think it's like even an older like, Renaissance paintings, right? They would make these I forget what they were called. But they were paintings of ugly people, or like old people who I really like intense faces. Those paintings a lot. eautiful anyway.

Francien Krieg: 6:47

Yeah. Yeah. What was the photographer Robin Pugh. I think it's a Dutch photographer. And she also make photos of people who look, you know, unusual, with big ears or like very skinny bodies. It's not not a typical bodies that you see in the social media, for example. And I love that. It has something very vulnerable in its

Laura Arango Baier: 7:12

dose. Yeah, it's a thought. Yeah. Celebrating every aspect of life not just beautiful parts. Yeah. Yeah. Actually just remembered. It's called. It's called a Trone. That's sort of

Francien Krieg: 7:23

that Tony. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But but especially, I think in this time, where people go use plastic surgery, surgery more and more. That may be in the future. We all look the same Saudis, all these people who look very different from this average image. I think we should treasure dolls is something beautiful in it? Yeah. No, yeah, that's

Laura Arango Baier: 7:47

a very good point. Um, and you know what, I'm actually really curious about what got you started on the path of the artists like before you even you know, went to study it, like what set you on that path?

Francien Krieg: 8:01

I have to really dig deep into the past them but so you know, like every artist, I think already, I had a talent of drawing and painting as a young child. Everybody always said, Oh, wow, you're so good. But that didn't mean so much. It was just playing. I think in high school, I got bullied at the point so bad that I quit high school that says also, I think I recognize so many artists who experience the same we're all like a little bit. Yeah, the type of people who are always not like part of the popular people but a little bit. outsiders. Yeah, that's the word I'm looking for outside. So I dropped out of high school and I thought I wanted to be like a beauty session is the name I think so I went to beauty school, you know, 16 years old, you think your appearance is the most important in the world, using makeup and experimenting. So I thought that that will be my future. But of course, during that education, I saw that it's totally not my world. And then I discovered because I had more free time I was you know, drawing and painting a lot and I thought wow, why you should not do that. And I was totally motivated to go back to the adult education finished my high school to get a diploma which I needed for art school and went to art school and haven't regretted for a second Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 9:27

that is so interesting that you went into like, Beauty School. And now you specialize in painting very beautiful, very natural women. I love that

Francien Krieg: 9:37

it's so bizarre well what was I thinking and you know, I just the type of women who choose that direction where I didn't fit in that group also, again, you know, it's funny choice. I was desperate I had to choose something my parents said you have to do something. So I've, I choose that.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:57

But I just wanted to say Clearly opposite of what you're rebelling against, you know, against.

Francien Krieg: 10:09

Also the other side, so that this may be interesting. Maybe it was not total waste of my time.

Laura Arango Baier: 10:14

Yeah, exactly. It was like research.

Francien Krieg: 10:18

I did research. Yeah, that's, that's it.

Laura Arango Baier: 10:22

And then, you know, in terms of the work that you're doing now, right, which you sent me some pictures, and they are amazing. Like, I, I love your old people a lot, I could stare at them for hours. And also, you are, you know, you jumped right onto the AI art, which, of course, is our main topic for today. I'm so curious about it, because it truly has divided the art world I think into especially the traditional art world where like, Oh, this isn't, this isn't art, and other people who just don't give a crap, they won't read into it and say, This is amazing. And I've seen the beautiful work that comes out of AR go, I'm like, holy crap, I didn't even know that that could be made. So what drew you to jumping right onto AI art?

Francien Krieg: 11:14

Well, actually, because I'm active in the NFT space already for a couple of years. And so I was there pretty early seeing this new development in AI because a lot of NFT artists started to make AI art. And in the beginning, I was you know, full of anger, to be honest. So I started exploring it out of anger, because I get the idea that it was very easy to create AI. And they presented like, there really are this, you know, I'm just being honest about it. And I'm a an artist for 25 years, you know, working hard to get some kind of technique and level and it's felt so unfair, that suddenly everybody can become an artist, just type in a few words, and you can create something that was my first idea and out of anger or frustration, I think I started to also make a i and started offering it for free as NFT and edits the prompts. And nobody is doing that. Because as an AI artist is completely you have to keep that as a secret. You know why? Because in the beginning, I just asked other AI artists, I asked them about their poems, I had no idea that was like, secret. thought everybody liked my question, but then I thought, okay, so I will just add the poems, and, and just offer them for free. And, but I don't know, somewhere along the line, I started to enjoy it. And I saw the possibilities of it. The potential, you know, because I was creating immediately the older and older women, the face of older women, and I thought, Whoa, you know, instead of looking for all the women on the street, and clapping on like strangers, asking if they want to pose me I can just create my own models. And yeah, I saw so much potential and I started to explore and it's addictive. I can I can tell you that you have to think twice before you start using AI because if I start I cannot stop really has something addictive in it. Yeah. Because the rush of making normally it takes me like a small size a few days, big size couple of weeks, for example. And then the feeling that the rush you get when you finish an art piece. And you think yeah, now it's done. That fulfillments you feel inside. So you have dealt with AI like, multiple times in a session. And and that is yeah, that feeling is addictive.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:45

Yeah, the instant gratification. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, especially Oh, and I understand the rage that you felt at first because at first, it felt kind of bothered by it was like, what the hell I studied for so many years exactly. achieve a level of technique. And these people who have never picked up a pencil in their life are calling themselves artists. Yeah.

Francien Krieg: 14:06

But of course, I completely changed my mind about that now, because still, it's the same discussion we have already for a long time with other new techniques that came along, like even like photography, you know, it was also like a threat to the painters at that time. And but because of that development, that was the whole new development of other styles in painting, because it was not necessary to paint realistic because you have photography. So they start to explore other styles. So it always brings new things as well as it I think it motivates creative people to set the bar higher or to explore new directions. Yeah, it's just another tool in art. That's That's how I see it now. And everybody can make an AI picture. Like in a few seconds very easy, but is it art so that this will remain Is the question. That's always been the question. And that is still, I think very hard to make something interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:09

Yeah. And then also, you mentioned about prompting, because like our listeners, I'm gonna say 99% of them have never tried AI art, and they have no idea how it even works. They just type a few words. Do you mind explaining how that even worked? How does prompting work? And all of yeah,

Francien Krieg: 15:27

You have, you have several programs to use, you can use Mid-journey, Dall-e, Stable Diffusion Ai. And you have all kinds of more simple apps are your phone, you know, I don't even know what is all the names, but there's many, there's plenty. But these three are the biggest. You just have to describe what you have in mind. It is. It's handy. If you think upfront what you want to say with the name Michelle does where it starts, what do you want to express. And then you have to have like a global idea of how you want the image to look like. So you start to describe, but it will take some time to learn how to speak the language of the AI because it is a different language, then you will speak to another human being. It has a different way of understanding words. And that also can bring interesting things, even maybe more interesting than my initial idea. So it does feel like is this inspiring and inspiring because of that, because it comes up with totally different thing sometimes then what was my intention? And then I can build on that I continue with that. So it's very, it's inspiring, because he has his own mind. But still, you have to learn how to speak the language. And that takes some time. That is, that's what I noticed really took me a long time to really understand the AI is for me, it's a he always call it a he

Laura Arango Baier: 16:58

maybe it isn't, maybe in your in Dutch, the word for robot is a male.

Francien Krieg: 17:03

Oh, yeah, maybe maybe. For some people, it's a she or it's, but it's like a collaboration. It's not either, if I if I finish a piece, it doesn't feel like I created I cannot take all the credits. And it's more like I'm a curator. So I have like the outputs can be hundreds of outputs. And then I go through all the outputs. And then I decide maybe then one or two images is like very interesting. And I can use that for like another program. Because I'm not using only just one program, I'm using several programs to be sure that it becomes something like nobody can copy. If I can, you know, if you make it too easy, there is a chance that people can easily come up with sort of the same image. And that's not what you want. Are the other hands, the all images are unique. So even if I put again, the same prompt, there'll be a different image. So you can never create the same image that's also sort of unique images. And I want to make clear also how the AI works, because many people think it's like you copy. And some people think oh, the AI is like literally an eye from a picture and like a collage put together. It's not like that. It's like millions of little particles scraped from the internet. And he the AI is creating something completely new. I think that's important to know, because all the commotion around it all the anger. Thank God, I have like a pretty thick skin. So I don't mind. But I do feel a little bit like a pioneer in that area. Although although I do see suddenly colleagues, you know, start to also approach me asking, Oh, how about that AI then suddenly, they see the potential as well, but it will take time. It will take time. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:01

yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And actually, I do remember seeing I think one time he posted. I am pretty sure it was an AI piece. And the comments, I saw some of the comments and they were awful. I was like, oh my god, people are rude. So I saw it and I was like, damn, I hope she's okay because

Francien Krieg: 19:23

I will feel more bad if people posted negative comments about my painting because I do feel more connected to my paintings. That will be a little bit depending on who says it of course because I'm also used to negative comments about my fainting as well. But I always look if it's really nasty comment, I will always check out who is the person and like, Okay, I don't mind. But yeah, the especially Instagram, I think it's depending on of course who are your followers. I am longtime on Instagram. So my followers are mostly out of the traditional art art world. And I think that's where Robots. Yeah, it's not ready for the AI to really embrace it. And but I'm mostly active on Twitter, because if you want to be active in the NFT space in the AI space, that all happens on Twitter, and their people are so friendly to each other, you know, that's such a different community. Yeah, it's very nice, because it's all kinds of different techniques, different kinds of artists. It's not, it's not my following on Instagram, it's mostly painters. But Twitter is like, video artists, performance artists, also painters, digital artists, an actor, actor, even who's also doing something with AI, it's completely different fields. And there's even a lot of collaborations going on in AI as well, with all these different artists. So yeah. I like spending time on Twitter, because it's a nicer community. When it's about AI,

Laura Arango Baier: 21:04

yeah. Yeah. And it seems like it's more diverse in in because like, for example, like with Instagram, right? They, the algorithm works in such a way that it connects you with other people who maybe paint, like car oil painters who paint in a similar way, and blah, blah, blah. But it seems like the algorithm for Twitter the way it connects with people doesn't really have that. So I think that's,

Francien Krieg: 21:26

I'm not sure how it works. But I also get the feeling, but maybe it also depends on who you connect with, of course, because you do get suggestions as well on Twitter. Oh, you should follow that person. And it's mostly somebody then in NFT, or in AI? Yeah. So it does work the same in big lines, but active in a different area. So that will be the difference. Maybe? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I wonder where it's where it's the whole discussion is going with AI with all the lawsuits I didn't follow. It's too much lately. Because, because, yeah, you had because art is saying all our work is being abused. And they want to have like the option to opt out on the database. So their work will not be abused. I think that's fair. You know, if people feel more comfortable with that should be an option. But I do still believe that the way they look at it is they should first try it. And try to understand the technique behind it before they have a strong opinion. And maybe maybe even bend it into something positive and see the potential.

Laura Arango Baier: 22:39

Yeah, I mean, I do know, Christopher Remmers, who, you know, he's been on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Some of his work, right. He uses AI. Yeah, uses AI. But to create references that he absolutely cannot find in reality, I think recently, he mentioned like, a flower that was glowing. And he needed that for a painting, but he couldn't obviously find like some random picture of a glowing flower, even in nature that doesn't exist. So we had to make his own. So he could use it.

Francien Krieg: 23:06

Well, you know, what I admire about him that he's open about it. Because I know for a fact there are many, many traditional artists using it, but not telling anybody they keep it a secret. And I do understand it a little bit, because what I heard through colleagues, is that a big part of the traditional gallery worlds, the gallery owners, they're not crazy about artists to using AI as reference. And yeah, so there's still this, that strong opinion about it. So I can understand if artists are a little bit shy to share that information. But I'm sure with time, that will change as well. So I think this Christopher is very brave, that he just shares this information. It's very good.

Laura Arango Baier: 23:51

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And he's wonderful. He's very open to you know, tools, which is, as you said, a tool. It's a collaborative tool. And you know, what, even when the camera was invented, right, then like the 40 years that artists became exposed to it, I can tell you that William it off Bouguereau Use photo references, I can tell you that a lot of artists in that time period who were academics maybe at the end of their lives, things photo references, because it really oh my god, this is so useful. Maybe I can't hire a model. And also like the whole idea of like, Oh, you shouldn't use like AI as a reference if you're gonna have work for gallery that's like, in my opinion, that's really dumb because I know so many painters and artists out there who before AI art would take hundreds of reference images, maybe 50 reference images go on Photoshop and collage them together. How

Francien Krieg: 24:47

I mean, we're not completely not compared to the artists who work like traditional onelook form life model is already we already in a traditional time where people are you using the que se Photoshop and making some edits and changes. And now this is okay, it gives more options. I think it gives more freedom to really create what you want to say, because I was always limited with my models, you know, the 80 year 85 year old woman who comes to bolster me, I cannot ask, please sit on like this woman behind me, you know, sit on your knee and book a box for me. You know, they have like pain in the hips or pain in the everywhere. So now suddenly, I can put this all the ladies, let them do things that in real life will be very hard to find. And so that that's incredible. So that's the same as Christopher of Mrs. She's also finding this. Yeah, there's magic in this way. I love it.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:44

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it becomes like how you said, you know, every image is unique. So it's like, you just made your own reference without worrying about copyright or like, stealing from someone else. Or like, Oh, I found an image on the internet, but he can't use it. Because, you know, it's Jackie, and they have copyrights.

Francien Krieg: 25:59

Yeah. So Well, I was always making my own photos because of that reason, because it's so difficult. But yeah, that's not that's what you make is your own image, as far as I know. But so that's that's still the discussion, I think, as well. So I'm not sure actually, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 26:16

We'll see where that goes. Yeah, it's barely been like a year since it's really

Francien Krieg: 26:22

exploding. But but not only with the arts, I will also the GPT chats, of course, it's a big, big change. And, you know, it's been been used on so many different levels, even in the medical medical worlds, to his great advantage where people suddenly get cured because of AI machines. It's, it's bizarre. It's bringing a lot of positive things as well, we should not forget about that. Yeah. And so

Laura Arango Baier: 26:52

an AI. Yeah, some AI came up with a way to like, discover cancer, or like, compare like cancer cells from other cells or something like that. I was like, yeah, yeah.

Francien Krieg: 27:01

Yeah, of course, AI will become much smarter than the human being. And that's very scary. I saw also, the global about the robot has also AI, playing tennis to someone, and I think he beats the human being he was better. And so not realistic. It was bizarre to see. But I'm afraid so I'm not afraid. But it is a bit scary development. I have to be honest as well. You know, I'm not sure where it's going. But yeah, for Yeah, I'll just on my own little, in my own little worlds. I'm enjoying the developments.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:37

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what it is. I mean, earlier, you said that you're just playing? So?

Francien Krieg: 27:42

Yeah, yeah, well, it started this, it started displaying, but to be honest, I'm playing to create a reference for my paintings. But that is a completely different way of making AI images, then if I say I want to create AI, just as an image on its own. And so, like, now I was, you know, invited for an art show with physical pieces, even if those lead slides with AI driven computer. So I first make the digital file the AI work artwork, and then the computer is making like a physical painting. Yes, but it's also AI driven. It's crazy. And it's also of course, for me as a painter a little bit mixed emotions about it, because I think well, you know, I can also paint that and as a machine takes over that's but so suddenly, you know, I get asked for this kind of crazy beautiful shows because it's it's an honor it's a very small group exhibition with big names and in the gallery in New York and, and even Tokyo, Japan, it's going worldwide, I think even am, but these outputs I created for that show, I will not use as for paintings, so this is different way of creating AI for me, it's two different worlds. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 29:02

so interesting. So fascinating. And the other fascinating thing that I think, you know, some people have concerns, right? Like I've seen maybe a few YouTube videos about people who have worked with AI or created AI and then left because they thought that the AI was conscious. How do you how do you feel about that? Do you feel like when you're prompting it, do you feel like it's just like you're talking to a living conscious thing?

Francien Krieg: 29:32

Know I'm pretty down to earth I don't I don't have that feeling at all. I don't have that it's I think, even if I use the chat GPT and I asked like simple questions if it's something about emotion I always you know, gather like really computer answer is not a normal human being, you know, and if I make an AI the prompting the reactions shows me that it's not understand Finding my words as a human being, it's sometimes even to direct how he explains the words. Right? So if you use like very poetic sentence, he will go in a completely different direction probably. And if you just be like, straights, woman with the sounds, standing in the fields, you know, you have to be just very clear. And then you can of course, add all kinds of actions like, sharp and sharp or photographic or Painterly. These kind of words. Ya know, so I don't feel like it has conscious, but it is happening in the world where they creates, you know, AI driven machines, which do have like a conscious, I think, I was even talking to someone from loot. That's the guy who, it's a big platform where they made a game to conquer pieces of lamps was like, a VR. And he had a new development in that game where you can now just talk to an AI person. And I haven't tried it yet, because I talked to the man yesterday, and I have to create a new account to have access to that AI but he said, that was like talking to a friend. Like really, you can talk it like from human to human. And he responds, like with a conscious, so that sounded so fascinating. I cannot wait to give that a try. Yeah, can we

Laura Arango Baier: 31:37

have another discussion about it?

Francien Krieg: 31:40

Maybe he can take my place you will have discretion with with that guy. Yeah, you know for for lonely people. Maybe it can be the future. I have like a robot friend

Laura Arango Baier: 31:54

who married her AI boyfriend or something like

Francien Krieg: 31:59

that story really? But that's not a physic not a physical robots, then the most efficient ball now?

Laura Arango Baier: 32:05

I was like, on an app, I think. Yeah.

Francien Krieg: 32:09

But no, no, no. It cannot be an official marriage then of course, it was a joke idea.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:16

I mean, some woman the Eiffel Tower, like in the 80s? I think so. You never know.

Francien Krieg: 32:22

I never heard of this crazy things, wants to marry the Eiffel Tower. You can adore it. You know, you can make pictures. You can climb it, you can do many things. What does marriage mean Nana? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 32:33

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Francien Krieg: 34:18

So but have you tried AI or if you tried, I tried

Laura Arango Baier: 34:23

it but with with Clint actually one day we were talking about it because we were going to interview Kevin Kelley which I recommend listen to episode two because we also talk about AI art a little bit. And he he has mid journey and I tried to get on the journey but their servers are full so I couldn't, couldn't try it. But I was able to tell him a prompt. And he very kindly, you know, put it in and then sent me the images. And I was so intrigued because it was like you said, you know not at all what I had in my head of the image that I wanted to see it was totally different and Uh, you know, on the one hand, it gives me like a little bit of peace of mind that, you know, even a machine can't really replicate what's in my head, which makes me you know, makes my idea unique in the sense that I came up with it. Although there's nothing new under the sun, everything, you know, everything's already out there. So it doesn't really matter. So on that side, it gives me like, you know, okay, as an artist, I can still, you know, come up with original ideas. That's how many members do,

Francien Krieg: 35:27

how many poems did you use? You tried one time,

Laura Arango Baier: 35:30

just one. So, of course,

Francien Krieg: 35:32

I never be like what you have in mind. And I think the whole art about it is to keep trying and changing the prompts just as long that you have an image that you feel like connected to. I mean, this is how I work for me, it's important if I see the image, it's it feels like a little bit the same same five as what I want to find my paintings. Because it's very easy to drift away from what you have in mind and go a different direction. And for me, that's the main problem also with AI to stay to keep that focus and stay close to your initial thoughts. To keep that red line. That's that's very difficult, because it's quickly going in different directions.

Laura Arango Baier: 36:17

Yeah, it's almost like the struggle with AI that I would see is like, it can pull you in a direction that maybe you wouldn't want to go or maybe a direction that isn't authentic to you. Which Yeah, that's That's

Francien Krieg: 36:31

right. It doesn't Yeah, yeah. Well, to be honest, I don't know. I don't know how you see majority. Because, for me, if I only use prompts in majority, it quickly gets to beaut for everything is quickly it gets very kitsch. I always recognize if somebody uses only the journey images is like this exaggerated beauty. I don't like the style. So for me, that's a challenge. First, images in another program, stable diffusion, where I can make nudity because there's when majority is of course, so prude, you cannot even have a shoulder that's already a problem. It's really goes far. So I have to trick a little bit. The system of maturity and use the images are made in stable diffusion. Whereas a lot of nudity, and then many times not always, but many times he accepts the some nudity in it, because I made it in another program. So that's also something I discovered maybe I should not say that out loud, or they will change.

Laura Arango Baier: 37:31

I mean, I think it's inevitable to you know, in the in the painting world, at least for nudity to exist, because that's always been a painting. So hopefully they'll do anything about it.

Francien Krieg: 37:40

I'm trying to come back there for maturity and to have the discussion, but it's very difficult to have like a one on one conversation with the creators. Yeah, yeah. Because it's it's an important conversation because like you say, in art, nudity is an important part of it. And now, I every time I feel treated like Gamson pervert, you know, because I want to show some skin. It's it's horrible. It's America, I'm afraid. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:11

Well, there you go. Yeah. But also like the other the other interesting thing I mean, I'm open to trying out ai, ai art because you know, for the same reason that maybe like other people do, which is one curiosity and two, there's that whole magical like, what magic spell did you use with like the prompting, right? Because it's, it can get so specific but that's why people are so protective about hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and prompting. So how long would you say like on average? Would it take you make an image that you would say okay, this is it this is the image that I wanted How long does it take you

Francien Krieg: 38:53

this can variety a lot to be honest but it can be weeks can be weeks before I really find a style that think wow, this is beautiful here and then you can continue then it can go fast and you can have like hundreds of nice images in a day but to get to that point where you where you find like that divide combination of words and images and it all fits together. Yeah, that that can take for me that that's always take some time. I was working the old my holiday every evening I was making a i My husband was not happy because you know it was a holiday but I was because I had this project in the back of my mind I want to make I want to create and it was only after the holiday that I came up with a theory which I really liked. So it can take some time but of course maybe I maybe I'm not so talented in it. Maybe people are going to be faster. I don't know. I do notice the longer I do it the more critical I guess that's that's also when I just started I think I quickly likes something. And now. Yeah, I want to take it further and further to I really, really like it. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:08

Yeah, I feel like maybe that's, that's kind of like the same process we have as painters, too. We're like, we're so satisfied really making just a good image. And then eventually, we're more and more critical, like, no, no, I can take this further, I can take this further, even with our own techniques. So it makes perfect sense. Yes, true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And speaking of, you know, the creative aspect, how do you think that AI generated art can impact the art world, and what people perceive to be creativity,

Francien Krieg: 40:39

I do think they will become, the art will become better even. Because I do I do think that for, for now, the traditional, a lot of traditional artists, they're so focused, I cannot put on one big pile, of course, maybe, maybe too much generalizing. But a lot of painters, they are so focused on to have this perfect technique. And, and, and that's it, you know, they're able to create, imitate something they see or resulting from an image. And which, of course, also has its value. But now, when a now with AI development, where it's so easy to make something realistic, I think we are forced to push it further or in another direction. Maybe you have something with more meaning in, in the artwork or a create something. Yeah, that's completely new technique. It will for sure, change the art worlds. I'm convinced about that.

Laura Arango Baier: 41:39

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think it's definitely yeah, it's I, I've heard a lot of artists say this to where they feel like it's going to push traditional artists in maybe a higher level or in a different way. Kind of like, you know, how you said earlier how people after the camera reacted with like impressionism right where they had, which also technically coincided with the invention of the pink tube. So it made crazy colors available to painters. So it was like, two things just met with each other. But we'll see how that how that affects our world. Because I mean, again, it is, I feel like it is so valuable for artists who need specific references, especially imaginative realism, right, which is, God, you can't find out an old Pegasus in the wild, you can just go find a flying horse, it's much easier to just go on, you know, one of these programs and be like, hey, you know, create a flying horse, maybe

Francien Krieg: 42:33

give me a flying horse? Yeah. So yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:35

I mean, it will take a lot more work, because of course, you have to prompt it. But it's much easier to learn how to prompt it than it is to like, make maybe a model horse and then and then put it in the correct lighting. And like, there are so many ways to do the same thing. And also, I did recently interview someone else who uses he uses blender to make it like, yeah, yeah, and change the lighting. So it's really not so different from that

Francien Krieg: 43:04

difficult program I have, it's on my PC, and sometimes I give it a try. But really, that's a whole other education, I think. But you know, to come back to traditional art, I don't think AI is a threat, because a lot of painters also feel oh, the will be day and the paintings will disappear, because we now have AI. But I think even that the painting, the paintings will become more valuable, because those are like, You cannot compare AI. It's digital, you know, you cannot hold it. It's it's nothing physical, it stays a digital file. So the paintings will become even more valuable, I'm sure of it.

Laura Arango Baier: 43:47

I agree. I completely agree. I mean, it's it's like, you know, buying a dress at a store versus, you know, going to a tailor and getting happy. Yeah, one feels more valuable than the other one was made in a factory, but the other one was hand held

Francien Krieg: 44:05

twice. Okay. It's both okay. But well, yeah, it's made a little bit more better. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:13

I mean, it's whatever the person values or whatever, you know, maybe like a tailor can't like for example, right, even in knitting, because I love knitting. You can hand knit something, but there's also machine knitting. And it makes you know, the knitting a lot more even and a lot faster. So

Francien Krieg: 44:31

yeah, but this Yeah, like these little things that makes it human. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely good.

Laura Arango Baier: 44:38

Like one better than the other. Right? It just one saves your time, that's for sure.

Francien Krieg: 44:42

Yeah, there's even this AI artists, Lily Lily. Oh, I will send the link maybe later. But she's like very popular as an AI artist. And she's using even like the small deformations that is still in AI, but slowly disappearing, which he thinks is fair. was sad because she whole artwork is around that team like, like six fingers or too many arms, this kind of crazy things that happens like little happy accidents in AI and she uses that in her own benefits actually. So that's also funny that we think the, you know, the new AI that is everything is perfect, but still, there are also little mistakes, almost like human little mistakes.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:28

Yeah, yeah. And they're sweet. I do I do agree that they can be. I mean, they're funny. They're very fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but then, you know, I'm also curious to know, like, if if someone wanted to try AI art, and they've never done it before, what do you recommend? Where should they start?

Francien Krieg: 45:48

I think the majority is a good way to start, because that's still for free. But you have to go to the discord channel. And that's, that, but it will be public. So what you create, everybody can see. So you can go to if you go to discord, you see newbie, and under new, you click on newbie, and then you click slash, imagine, you can start prompting, but you have dial a bit, I think it's paid also and stable. The Huishan is also paid. That was for free oils. But now suddenly, they change also affordable. So but it's not like it's like 10 Euro, you can start with 10 euro per month is not very expensive. But for someone who's just curious, I wanted to try it, for sure majority is because the level of the technique is so high of majority, I think it's still it's one of the best, for sure. And you still have runway, I didn't mention that one before. That also has a lot of possibilities. Also, to make film clips based on words, that's the newest, which so I didn't do much with it, it's also paid so you can really try for free. And you can make their images based on poems but so So the video is extra you can more of like two images together that I posted on Instagram a couple of times this kind of animated species. So those those can be a good start.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:15

Yeah, and then in terms of marketing, you know, like, do you feel like the way that AI art is marketed? Is it like the same way that you would mark it regular, you know, traditional paintings?

Francien Krieg: 47:27

No, no, well, it's slowly changing. Like for example, the show which I mentioned that Sally also a physical I was already in a couple of shows with AI work which were also in a physical get gallery but then they use of course the big computer screens. That is also funny. And I noticed that a lot of collectors it's not like the old fashioned collector who has the paintings hanging out but now they have like one big screen and I have the whole NFT AI collection you know flipping the works. So it's yeah, it's the new collector I think most AI artists at this moment as far as I know, they sell their AI work as NFT so that is the way to market your AI and if I can speak for myself I'm also a noun den selling AI as Prince as she claimed Prince is also people also seem to like that to have the people wants to have the desire to have something physical in their hands for many people still a bridge too far to have only like a digital file on their computer and I can totally understand that that's you know, I also want to hold something and treasure it but I am also became a collector by the way with NFT so I really like to have this whole collection on my on the blockchain as well. So I collect from Ai artists Yeah. So yeah, that's my advice for marketing if you want to start selling AI work first join Twitter that's important part and find your community there. There's so many options on Twitter you know, the Twitter space is where you can speak you can start a group with people who have the same passions. That's very it's very direct contact on Twitter compared to Instagram. It works in a different way and that's what I really like more direct contact with collectors also for example, compared to what Instagram yeah so that's that's the way for now as far as I know.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:40

Yeah. Awesome. Do you do you find that it's easier for you to read like to find collectors or for collectors to find you directly through Twitter compared to Instagram? Like do they just message you like, hey, I want to collect like one of your pieces or?

Francien Krieg: 49:56

Well, you know, you've already made it to pieces and they're on the blockchain so it's goes more We're all the way around, you know, you just have to be visible, you know, reach out to people. If you like someone else's work, you just respond to it. But just be yourself. Be authentic. Of course, don't try too hard. But if you see somebody buys your work, it's of course, it's nice if you reach out to them personally, I say, hey, great, thank you. And then you have contacts. It's as simple as that.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:23

Yeah, yeah. So it's basically the same as like regular paintings, you know, or like someone. Yeah.

Francien Krieg: 50:28

And that's, yeah, that's when it's the same. But if I sell like a real painting for because the those amounts, of course, are completely different than compared to an NFT, at least my NFT is, I know, lots of NFT artists who sell their work for crazy amounts, but I'm not there. You know, for me, you can still I'm still affordable. So yeah, there's also a difference, then, of course, the content. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:57

I love it. Oh, this has been so fascinating. Like, I definitely want to try my journey now. Thanks to you. Because, yeah, that was

Francien Krieg: 51:03

my question. Are you motivated now to give it a try? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:09

yeah, definitely more than one prompt, because I mean, you know, like, most people get an idea in their head, right? Like, you probably, you know, get this to where you like, really want that exact idea on your canvas. But oftentimes, even without the AI right before AI is like, trying to put it on a paper, it's almost like trying to write down a dream, it makes absolutely no sense. You know, like, nothing really works. But in your head, it works. So I feel Yeah, with mid journey, it might help solve those little like, problems, which is very cool. I

Francien Krieg: 51:43

think it's important that you will be open minded with AI to not keep too tight, or your first initial idea what you want to say, but also open up for AI and what he comes up with, and then maybe go with that seed. So collaboration, you work together. Just as long thing you both like it.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:04

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And then, you know, the other thing that I've been asking my guests that I find very interesting is aside from your paintings, right? Do you have any other hobbies that people wouldn't expect? Right, that you're actually very good at? Or, you know, you just enjoy on the side that maybe,

Francien Krieg: 52:24

I wish, I wish I, I wish I had time, I'm such a workaholic, I think I have two small children. Well, the one is 12, and six. And the husband is also very time consuming to have a relationship. It's I'm a full time painter and AI artist, and NFT. It's already a lot. And then the spare time I put in contact with my family and friends and colleagues doing this kind of nice things with you. So I would love to make more music. You know, I come from a very musical family. My father was a musician, my aunts, articles, musicians. And, you know, I was playing a couple of instruments when I was younger. And I always have the idea that maybe one day I will pick up that passion if there's a little bit more time. So no need for me. No.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:19

But hopefully, yeah, you can just have the instrument there in your studio just like yeah, maybe I'll pick it up for five minutes. Because you know better than like, no, because

Francien Krieg: 53:27

I would I also see now that all these options, and again, it's the new techniques of the apps, you can just download the app and pick your guitar. And he will even make corrections. If you play something and he's an app. You can do again, you have like a teacher in your app. That's also makes it much easier. I think. I tried to motivate my children, but they both have no interest in playing an instrument. That's, that's frustrating. But yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:54

Oh, I made it up in the future.

Francien Krieg: 53:58

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:01

I love it. And then do you have any other exhibitions or any other things that are coming up that are really awesome.

Francien Krieg: 54:11

To be honest, I quit working with galleries since some time now. I think since COVID, everything changed a lot. Of course, at that time, I was still working with a couple of galleries but didn't work. No sales was not going so great. And I have a lot of bad experience with galleries in general in this past one to five years. I can tell you I can write a book about it. I think well, I will not bother you with that but I thought I'd give it a try just on my own and it's going great since couple of years I think four years now already and never had such great income. So I'm not looking for work. If it's like a great gallery of course I'm always open. But yes, I have. I have one solo coming up but that's that's next Fear. And that's like a very skewed small gallery in the Netherlands. This This lady is indirect, like a contact from a friend of mine. And she approached me. And she seemed so sincere that she's only doing like solo shows a couple of times a year. And she's really dedicated to a gallery and I thought, okay, that's something that I want to do. And yeah, I'm more active now with shows with AI in the NFT. Than with my then exhibitions with my paintings. Yeah, let's see where it goes with that's for now. And joining on my own, that's great.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:35

No, I mean, you know, with the internet today, I feel like the gallery model is slowly dying away anyway. Unless, like you said, unless it's very good Gallery, which, yeah, the standard is like way up here now, because there I have also, you know, spoken to other painters who have also had horror stories about galleries. Not to mention like a few years ago, I think it was Jeremy man who had like, I don't know how many paintings were sold behind his back. And then the woman literally disappeared. Like she ran away with all the money. Oh, like, Interpol was after her it was insane. So it happens. I mean, when you trust a gallery with really expensive work, I mean, think secondary, and I think I think he's still looking for those missing paintings, because he doesn't know where they want, which must be for an artist.

Francien Krieg: 56:23

Wow. Well, you know, recently I got back paintings, which are still in the gallery in the United States. And the package came back completely destroyed was two paintings inside. And it is I even have like the metal frame. And it was torn into it was completely broken at what the hell did I put on my package that the whole painting is split into it was unbelievable. And painful. And nothing bad about the gallery, but it's still it's always a risk sending your work. And yeah, they'll see those posts, companies. I don't have good experience with that as well. Yeah. So that's a whole nother story. And again, that's, yeah, I think every painter has their own stories about galleries. But I know many will have don't have great experience with galleries. They all try their best, but it's, you know, you need to have like a gallery that is really devoted and dedicated to promote artists with a small group, because there's too many galleries want to have like hundreds of artists in their inventory. And then your artwork, they end up just standing there, packed somewhere in the storage. Yeah. And then they sell it online, and they want to have to commission this kind of things. This I think I better do it. Like you said, it's the new development that you can show yourself through the social media platforms. And and maybe I should even put more energy into that. But I started selling like, small side. I don't know if you saw it on Instagram, you know, I just I tried it for fun. And just now with a friendly smile, this presenting became my, like, weekly reel, where I present say, are making this small sketches on small size panels. They sell for pretty nice amounts. I'm happy. Yeah. The way it goes.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:23

Yeah. And then also, you know, I don't know if you if you remember, but Clint actually was a gallery owner. And then he decided to make FASO for artists to have their websites and to sell through their website without, you know, the gatekeeping of the galleries, which of course, in the early 2000s, and in the 90s was got the you know, how the gallery were no one today. It's like, you got the internet, you can do whatever the hell you want. You know,

Francien Krieg: 58:46

it gives so many options and with all this new techniques, where you can make like cool videos, and yeah, you can have the text written by the GPT. You know, you don't need to do everything yourself now. That's so great.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:03

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Especially because as artists, I mean, we have so much to do

Francien Krieg: 59:07

this. Yeah. I published a book a couple of years ago, I took me one year to make this book, you know, find a text writer photographer to make photos of the paintings all discovered the editor. I don't know, do you name it, everything that involves making a book and I think if I look back and I may be going to make a book, soon in nearby future, it will be less. I will need less people I can do maybe much more on my own because of all these new developments. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, many tools of course. Doesn't mean it will be all good to come out. But you can try. You can try.

Laura Arango Baier: 59:50

Yeah, especially as a one person like company basically. Where you Yeah, everything. It's extra. A lot of help. It's yeah. Yeah,

Francien Krieg: 59:59

that's true. If it helps,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:02

I just remembered that you mentioned the quarantine event, which I don't know if you want to talk. Yeah.

Francien Krieg: 1:00:07

Yeah, but it's not like I'm the expert on that quarantine event but because you mentioned your your time with old Netherlands. And that sounded so interesting and that I thought, because I'm following masterclass ever, at least once a year I want to follow so my master class, whether with a painter just to get out of my comfort zone, and I find it's very inspiring. I always end up doing exactly what I always did, but doesn't matter. That's for next year, I was really looking for something more like you described like mentorship, where you find someone who can really inspire you to maybe take the concept of your work and just a step further. So I read about the quarantine events. I just I only know for sure that Vincent desiderio that he is one of the mentors. I think this year was also Lita Kabelo. And Galera mo the core of I always have a hard time pronouncing his name, but he makes his huge paintings of all this animals and blown up. People connect together with animals. So you know, maybe I told you

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:22

you did more Lorca. Or

Francien Krieg: 1:01:25

Yeah. Mallorca. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:28

It's, like the children in the bed with like, the Jaguar. But yeah, that's, that's really I think, yeah, for sure. Oh, okay. I

Francien Krieg: 1:01:35

didn't know. He's on that island, you can just go to like Spanish islands. I think it's on even on other islands as well. And, you know, you cannot be in contact with social media, you cannot use your phone, it's pretty strict. And you will be guided, you can choose your mentor, or they choose you. And there's a strict procedure for the selection events. It's not for everybody. It's for a small group of artists. Pretty expensive. But it's included, like the meals and the stay. And it's not that bad if you make a calculation. But yeah, that's I'm looking forward to doing this. That sort of thing that can be Oh, inspiring, scary. But I like to do scary things. You have to challenge yourself. You have to challenge yourself from time to time noticing. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:22

yeah. No, I agree. That's very inspiring. And actually, it makes me want to when I look into it, I mean, maybe the the price of it is almost like rent today, anyway.

Francien Krieg: 1:02:31

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. There's not like the rent in my time when I was still living, you know, like a student's house or you had anti squat houses where you pay like few 100. I heard the stories is horrible at this moment, everything for young people, they cannot live anywhere with their parents then, hopefully. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:52

exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's a scary world out there. But at least we have the Internet where we can make money. Exactly. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Francine, for the fascinating and inspiring conversation. I am so excited.

Francien Krieg: 1:03:10

It's helpful. I hope it was helpful. It was pleasure, pleasure to talk to you as well. Thanks for having me, of course.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:17

And I hope we can talk again in the future about any other crazy developments that end up happening, because I feel like you're always at the forefront of like, anything that's going to spread seems there.

Francien Krieg: 1:03:27

Yeah, well, I'm sure there's more developments coming, I'm sure of this going is such a big fast tempo is amazing. All this new models of all this AI. You know, if I look back from like, a month ago, already, the images look completely different. So it's going really fast. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:44

absolutely. By the way, where can our listeners find more of your work?

Francien Krieg: 1:03:49

So you have to just go to my Twitter account, just Twitter and then top secret AI. I have two accounts, I have one account with my paintings and one account with my AI work. And I also was sharing on Instagram, I think you can still find some of it. But at one point I was I thought I have to make a choice. Instagram is just for my paintings and not for AI. So I decided to not share too much of that anymore. So if you want to see my AI, you have to go to my Twitter account. And just contact me just reach out to me for people want to know more about it. I can I can always help out. I don't realize. Yeah, nice. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:30

And then also, of course, your website. Um, people can read more about you.

Francien Krieg: 1:04:35

Yeah. www. Francine. It's a fat as to FASO website. So

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:43

yeah, it's very nice. I love your website.

Francien Krieg: 1:04:46

Yeah, I love it, too. It's great.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:48

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Francine.

Francien Krieg: 1:04:52

Thank you lava. Bye bye. Do we

The BoldBrush Show. Interviews with today's finest artists and creatives. Watch here or listen on all major podcast services.