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In this episode, we created a compilation of our past guests sharing their personal journeys of building sustainable careers in the art world, emphasizing the importance of starting small and being adaptable. They discuss various strategies for supplementing income, including teaching workshops, taking commissions, leveraging social media, and participating in juried competitions. Our guests candidly explore the financial challenges of being a full-time artist, advising newcomers to have a safety net, save money, and be prepared for fluctuating income. Many recommend starting with small projects like pet portraits, entering local shows, and gradually expanding one's network and opportunities. Personal stories highlight the significance of finding one's unique artistic voice and being willing to pivot when necessary. The overarching message is one of resilience, creativity, and the importance of persistence in pursuing an artistic career.
Episodes mentioned:
40 Susan Lyon
61 Nanci France-Vaz
65 Tony Pro
69 Scott Burdick
77 Aaron Westerberg
78 Vicki Sullivan
88 Nick Eisele
92 Blair Atherholt
96 Brienne Brown
104 Thomas Schaller
128 Sarah Yeoman
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Transcript:
Nanci France-Vaz: 0:00
Lesson is, don't ever give up. You have to hang in there, and you have to figure out a way to make money.
Tony Pro: 0:07
So you just, you always have to, like, pivot you, you know, as the as the old the US Marines, you have to improvise, overcome and adapt.
Vicki Sullivan: 0:16
Don't dive in the deep end without a safety net. So maybe transition into it. So I would have, like a part time job or something as well. At first,
Brienne Brown: 0:32
I think there's lots of options nowadays, which I think are pretty fantastic, because no longer are we in the time where you need a gallery, right? You need a gallery to represent your work, you know, and that's still an option. And I'm in several galleries, and so it's good, but we are in a day and age where you as an artist can do a lot. Welcome
Laura Arango Baier: 0:55
to the bold brush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In this episode, we created a compilation of our past guests sharing their personal journeys of building sustainable careers in the art world, emphasizing the importance of starting small and being adaptable. They discuss various strategies for supplementing income, including teaching workshops, taking commissions, leveraging social media and participating in juried competitions. Our guests candidly explore the financial challenges of being a full time artist, advising newcomers to have a safety net, save money and be prepared for fluctuating income. Many recommend starting with small projects like pet portraits, entering local shows and gradually expanding one's network and opportunities. Personal stories highlight the significance of finding one's unique artistic voice and being willing to pivot when necessary. The overarching message is one of resilience creativity and the importance of persistence in pursuing an artistic career.
Susan Lyon: 2:12
Don't be scared to have like a job. Also probably the biggest advice I give to people, especially when they want to start selling, is you have to sell small things so and I'm talking like six by eight, eight by 10, I would I say, just to people start doing little commissions of people's pets. There is nothing better than painting or drawing animals. I mean, I wish I could do it for the rest of my life. I mean, so if you get some samples right, you actually do a couple, even pencil, charcoal, little oil pastel, anything, little small things of pets, and sell them relatively cheap. Think about, how long does it take you to do? Think about, you know, the supplies aren't that much, you know. So you're thinking about output, and you put samples out there, and you say, hey, you know, I'm, you know, open commissions or whatever. That is another way, you know, because that's what Scott did, too. When he was in school, he would make money off of just doing pastel portrait commissions of people. But he was also really fast, so, but pets are probably the best toe Dipper. You know, get yourself in to making money. Everybody wants a pet commission. And I think they're the funnest things ever. So if you can do them relatively fast, meaning time output, think about small think about your favorite medium, and it can be any medium. You don't have to do them the way other people do. So, you know, when I started out everybody, you know, I remember hearing that real artists do sketchbooks and pencil and I'm not a pencil person. I'm not a sketchbook person. So for probably 15 years, you know, I would say, I hate drawing. And then when I started to think about drawing in a different way, drawing using mass and just value without line, well then things clicked. So it's just something for people to realize that if you see somebody else doing a little oil, and you're not confident doing an oil, do a little charcoal, do a little pencil, do whatever you feel comfortable, a pen and ink. I mean, anything you like to do. Start making money off these small things and sell them as cheap as you possibly can, until you get so popular that you have to raise the price. It's just you also think about the fact that they're subsidizing you for practice. You know, like Oh, someone's paying me 250 to do this. Oh, okay, all right, it's not ton of money, and I'm spending a little bit time on it, or whatever. But hey, oh, then another person, then another person, and you get to post it, and then they're word of mouth, and it's like, maybe you get all their friends, you know, they think I saw this great portrait. Oh, my God, and I want to get it as a gift to my friend or my dad, and so. Uh, start off like that. That's how I would say, you know, promoting those thank thank
Nanci France-Vaz: 5:07
you so much for saying that. I always I never forget where I come from. You know, I come from a middle class family. Nothing was given to me. I'm still paying off my$55,000 student loan. Quit my job at American Express, and I went to music and art, and I taught architecture. I never I didn't know anything about architecture. I read the book I got in, but it was steady income. There was a teacher there that said to me, what are you doing in the theater department? He said, What are you doing here? You should go on auditions because you're ready. You should have been an actress, but your paintings are really good. They kind of remind me of the theater or film. I said, yes, the desire to tell a story, you know, so lesson is, don't ever give up. You have to hang in there. You have to figure out a way to make money. I quit the teaching job. Everybody thought I was crazy. They said, Oh, she's not. She was always nuts. I didn't listen to them this time. You know, I moved into the city, and I worked three jobs for a long time, up until 11 years ago, when I met my husband, my second husband, Tim. He said to me, in 2017 I had this big portrait commission, and that's what I was doing to make money. Besides being a freelance makeup artist that Bergdorf for Laura Mercier, I was able to supplement my income, but I couldn't paint every day, three, four days a week. Week, I was working eight hour days, and then the all my days up. I was working seven days a week all the time. I had to put the 30 hours a weekend. I had three days to do it. I'm in the studio for 10 hours. That's it. And 11 years ago, when I quit, a friend of mine said, When are you going? She's an entrepreneur. She said, You need to stop now and just go for it. I said, Okay, I'll do portrait commissions all the time. And my husband said to me, we had just met. He said, Why are you doing this? You don't seem like you like doing it. I said, You know what? I love doing portraits, but I don't like being I felt like it was too in the box for my temperament. I have friends of mine that an amazing commission portrait painters, and they love it, and they do quite well. So I think you have to figure out what is your temperament, and that takes a while, and then go in that direction. Now, painting your own things is like a musician, not playing classical music and copying Mozart or a musician that is a session musician that's playing other people's work, or a singer that's a backup singer that's not singer songwriter singing their own stuff. That's the hardest thing to do. It's so hard to figure out what your voice is and how do you write a story, not easy, yeah. And so you figure out, how do you get up every day and be inspired? And so for me, that's it.
Tony Pro: 8:15
I was very difficult. It was extremely difficult, and I went through, which is part of the reason I moved here to Texas was because, you know, we didn't, we never went into foreclosure or anything like that, because I had a lot of equity in my home there in California. But, you know, it was very tough. I mean, it was, you know, income was going like this when I was working, and then when I stopped, and income went like this, and the bills went like that, you know. And it was, of course, we had, I had three young kids at the time too, and so, you know, that was a big factor in the decision to move here to Texas, because it's just much more affordable here. So, you know, and, but I had, you know, there's things as you have to do as an artist to survive, you know. So I had to do a lot of freelance. I did a lot of commission work that I didn't want to do, you know, but you got to do it. So it's not, was not an easy process. And it's still, you know, it still can be a very scary scenario. You know, COVID, for COVID was scary, but oddly enough, you know, the galleries were doing well, and they were able to move work during COVID. I never saw that coming. Didn't think that that would be able to happen. But it did. You know, people were just at home looking at blank walls. They're like, Well, I think I'm going to do this. And, you know, yeah, and that worked out so, but um, no, you just have to, you have to do what's right. Um, by your situation. Um. Um, you know, if you're if you know, it's a different situation. If you're married with a family, you have to kind of make decisions based on that you know, as you know. And I'm sure most artists know being an artist is a very solitary, selfish life, and you know, a lot of times your spouse is not going to understand. A lot of decisions that you make and that, you know that initial decision, well, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to do, I'm going to be a fine artist full time, and I'm going to do this, and then it's trying to explain that to your significant others is it's not a good conversation, and that that a lot of times that's held against you. And so I had to make a lot of concessions. I had to, you know, I had to still work on a certain level. I still, you know, I can still do advertising if I need to, just because I'm I was good at that, it's kind of brainless work to me, just because I did it for so many years and and it also helps for marketing my work too. I mean, it's, you know, a lot of artists don't know how to market their work. So I was able to do that. And since I was in, when I was in the entertainment industry, I was doing a lot of video work as well. I did a lot of editing. I did a lot of motion graphics. So back in like 2006 when the housing market was really taking a dive in in United States, you know, that was affecting artists, because, you know, collectors were not spending money on art. So a lot of my, you know, myself included, that's kind of when I went, I got laid off from one of the movie studios at that point, so I had nothing going. So back then, I created the first online live art school. So I worked with my cousin who was a web programmer, a really, a really good one, and so he and I kind of put this website together. It's still around. It's called zaraya.com I haven't updated it in many years in the sense of how it the functionality of it, but what I did was I was, at the time, I put my my drawing teacher. I we did live classes online that people could watch. We had people all over the world, because Glenn was very well known. He was a very well known comic book illustrator, and so we had people all over the world chiming in, and they could ask questions, they could type in and ask questions, and no one else was doing it at the time. Wow. Of course, nowadays it's like everywhere, you know. People have it everywhere, but, but that, you know, and so that was getting, that was getting money for my artist friends. So I would put my artist friends, you know, I did one with Dave Casson. Been one or two with him, and then we did, we did. I did one with Logan, as we did, you know, I did a whole class of Glenn's, couple semesters of classes of Glenn's, and I'm so glad I did, because it's the only video of him in a classroom. You know, like working so, so we have his education, his knowledge, in terms of the classes, and, of course, all the dry jokes, he was wildly funny, so, but those are the kind of things that I had to just kind of pivot, like, Okay, well, I'm not selling any work and I'm not making money at my day job because I have no day job anymore. So what do I do? So you just, you always have to, like, pivot, you, you know, as the the old, the US Marines. You have to improvise, overcome and adapt. You have to just figure out, what's next. What can I do? And there's just, you know, I feel like my life has been nothing, but that trying to figure out, okay, well, that's not working. Let's try this. Let's try that. And, you know, you eventually keep slugging along, something will click, something will happen, you know. So that's kind of where I, where I've landed these days, you know, yeah, and it's just, I just paint and produce, and I try to put out as much work as I can. And,
Scott Burdick: 14:48
yeah, so, yeah, supplementing. Well, when I first started out, I don't teach workshops anymore, but I will do them online. We're going to do an online class. This next year, Sue and I together, and we do the Patreon. So that's kind of but I stopped doing workshops, although Sue is doing them now, so she loves doing them, and I'll go with her, and I'll just paint with the class. But workshops were a good income. I would do a couple a year. Usually, I would tie it in with a show. I would do one in Scottsdale. I used to do one in Scottsdale artist school. And Dan Gerhart and I would have a show at the gallery that we were in in Scottsdale, so I tie it in with the show. And I would do one in Los Angeles each year, and in different places that I'd done. Clyde aspervig is a he's a great landscape painter, and he had come to Chicago once, and he had told me that when I was first starting out. He said you should do workshops around the country. Don't do them in one place, because then people will those people who take the class are really some great artists in that area, and they'll see your work and and so that was a and they'll talk about you and buy your sketches and things. And so that was a, I think, for starting out, that was a very good advice, because first, when I did at Scottsdale, nobody knew who I was. In fact, they didn't need any teachers. I just said, if you ever have an opening or somebody has to cancel, maybe I'll come and teach a class. And so everybody took the class, maybe half full. Nobody had heard of me before. They just saw the my painting in their brochure. And then those people got to know you. And then, you know, over time, you know, you would get known in different areas. And you know, I would have 100 people on the waiting list for the classes. So that was, I think that's a very good way to get known, is to do workshops at different places and things like that. As far as supplemental, really, it was just painting for me. Mostly, I did one three month project for when you first moved to North Carolina, for DreamWorks, all the artists from Los Angeles used to take my class from Dreamworks and Disney and all these different studios would take my Los Angeles class, and I had actually was thinking of stopping fine art, because we'd had a couple galleries that had cheated, cheated, cheated me and and I it was one in Carmel that that just happened to in the artist came. So I went. They asked me to come to DreamWorks just to have a tour. But really they'd set up a meeting with Jeffrey Katzenberg, so he he gave me the pitch to come work for them. And so I did three months in North Carolina, when I fly back once a month for the meetings. It was for a movie called Spirit. It was development on this movie called Spirit, which is about horses in the west and and what was interesting, because it was a whole there's a whole group of us. There was artists, and there was a writer too. But all the artists, they were said, you write or do paintings or ideas, whatever you have, your ideas and stuff. And so I had always written a lot, so I actually sent paintings, but I also would write ideas for scenes and stuff, because they had given us. All they given us was a one paragraph. Jeffrey Casper, one paragraph idea for this. And so once I started writing things to the directors, Bruce and Lorna, they said, Oh, well, keep painting, but concentrate on the writing things that you're doing. So I I would send those in and come in once a month to the meetings. And they loved all the the ideas that I would write for the story. So after three months, and they paid a ton for me at that time. Was ton of money. They paid $10,000 so I made $30,000 in three months, and I used a good portion of that to build a studio for Susan on our property, so she would have a nice studio and would be working in the living room. But then I was really at a crossroads, because they wanted me to work there full time, but I'd have to move out to Los Angeles, so I named it would be working as a writer. And so I really, really debated it, really thought about it, but I ended up just saying, No, I really don't want to work for somebody work on other projects. So, so I just that was the only kind of other thing that I made money from than painting. And I just kind of also realized I really do have it good. I can paint my own paintings. I can do my own writings and stuff. So that was kind of the only other job that I have had since then. And so for me, it's just been painting until and I would do workshops now and I'm trying to think, if there's other things, as far as money videos, we've done a few instructional videos. Lily doll had come out years ago so that that made a little extra money. And then now with Sue, she started the Patreon site, which has been just, oh, I it's just a wonderful fun thing. And we've got like, 150 videos on there now and and to me, that's more exciting to me, because you'll get people from all over the world who watch them, and it's like, I think it's like $9 a month, and you only have to do one month. So we'll have people from very poor countries. They will write these really just hard. Heartfelt things, because they'll say, we've never been able to buy a video in the future, maybe Sue's told you this already, I don't know, but, and so they will write and say, we've never been able to get a video because they're in Iran, or they're in Africa or Afghanistan or wherever it is, India. And so they'll just get, you know, because a video could be like our old videos, with like, $150 you know that when the company would make it and a DVD, and that's shipping and all that, so places like that, they could never get a video. And so they can watch all the videos. They'll get all their friends together, and they'll watch it for one month, and then they'll, they'll, then they'll, they'll, they'll sign up again in another bunch of, you know, another half a year. And so that's been really a neat thing, I mean, because there's probably, like, every month, there's about maybe 50 of those, those people who will come on and then come off in one month, and then we have other people. It's just wonderful because we couldn't do it with all the other people who will subscribe every month. And so that gives you enough money to spend the time videoing things, filming paintings, doing lessons and and then putting them on there. So I'm so that's, that's a little bit extra money, but it's, it's pretty it's really, you know, fun to be able to pass on these ideas more than just a workshop, because most workshops I was only able to do, like a three hour demo. And these, you can actually do things that are, like some paintings that take me a month. I can film them and photograph them and talk about all those, you know, film, you know, all these different things that we've not been able to teach before in a workshop. So it's, it's, and also just, it's really expensive to take a workshop, to travel all the way to it for people. And so it's, it's, it's been pretty fun, but it is an extra, you know, Sue does all the work on it. So it's, it's, it's, but it's extra income for that as well. But mainly it's painting, because both of us are artists. There's a lot of other things that we could do for income. A lot of friends of Jane Gerhard, a lot of other friends who they're either the husband or wife runs the business end of things, so they can make money from all kinds of different things, prints or books and stuff. But because we are both artists, we don't have as much time to do that other stuff. So it's mainly for me. It's mainly just my paintings and, you know, on some I make some money from my books and things like that, but not, not as not enough to, you know, make a living unless I were to do it full time, to write for somebody. I don't I it's really difficult, because you have to just follow what you're interested in. And it's it is being an artist, being a writer, all sorts of things are, are very much a something that's not guaranteed. So if I go to work for somebody, if I go to work for DreamWorks or other places, then it's more guaranteed. And and people have different personalities. There are just incredible artists that work at the studios in different places, and some of them, they're that's just their passion. They love being given a project and to work on, and then they, they, they, they do it. It's collaborative. So you have to kind of judge your own self, you know, I I just am not that kind of person. I really do like working on weird things, half of which don't sell, but enough sell. And so you have to look at your own self. Do I have the personality for this? Are you really driven to want to do your own things? Or is it better to work for a place and then just not have that? Some people the stress of having to come up with money. I mean, especially we don't have kids. You have kids, you have all the sorts of expenses, it can be very stressful. So maybe it's not right for you to have the stress of trying to make a living. We have people who come to us and say, well, I need to make this amount of money a year. How can I do that with being a painter? And sometimes you're just like, well, you know you're putting yourself under so much stress, you know that you're not going to be able to do your own work, maybe it's better to do something else for your money and then do this for yourself, because that can be pretty stressful. So I think taking my best advice is taking the pressure off yourself however you can, whether it's another job and then do this part time. I mean, that's what I did with writing or moving places, if you can, like we move places to take the stress off us. I know that if I lived in a place that was very expensive and we had lots of kids and things like that, I probably would have to have done more things to just make money. So there's, there's nothing wrong with that. That's a great thing, you know. And and even if I were to go work for films I love, like you said, I love spirit, I love those things, I would be happy working in places like that, too. So it's, it's really hard to give specific advice, I think, trying to make it so you don't have too much stress. Because with that, put so much pressure on you that's always going to be the death of creativity. So
Laura Arango Baier: 25:07
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Aaron Westerberg: 27:27
no, it was slow. It was over a few years for sure, um, because I didn't know what I was doing, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. I was just, I just wanted to be a fine artist. I wanted to be a gallery artist, you know. And so I was like, What do I have to do to, you know, to do this? And I just wanted everything to culminate to where it would help facilitate that, you know. So working at borders didn't really facilitate that, you know, too much, you know. So as soon as I cut that out, I did, but, but yeah, you know, you know, I think some of when you teach, like, you know, a lot of times I would get, you know, because my drawings were, they were, they were pretty decent drawings when I was teaching, because I would teach live drawing, and a lot of times I would get people to take my class, and they would see me, and, you know, I was like, you know, 20 something years old, and Like, Oh, you're just a kid, you know, like, I thought you'd be like, old man or something, and, and I'm like, I think, but some of the best teachers are the ones that are, you know, just kind of learning. And, you know, can do the things, but everything is kind of new and fresh to them. They're not like, crusted over. And, you know, they can actually express the ideas that maybe someone will just be like you just gotta go through a million drawings to figure it out. So, you know, draw teaching. I think almost anyone can do that. You know, early on, you know, I think that's a really good way to start. And you know it, it doubles down on what you know. You're teaching somebody you know what you know, and so you have to vocalize it and basically explain it to somebody who has no clue. And it's also good, I have some good teaching stories, because I've taught for a long time, and I've taught some, I mean, I taught a guy, I'm positive he was in the witness relocation program. I mean, I'm positive, you know, this guy was, like, total sopranos guy, and he had a pinky ring that was, like as big as my thumb on his pinky, and he could just smash me in any time, if you want to. He was humongous. But, yeah, I just so teaching is, it's interesting, it's fun. But you you learn more, you get better at your craft by teaching. So I think that is, is a great way to supplement your income. And then, like, the thing I want to say with social media is, you know, it's, it's easy to get bogged down in it and just kind of be negative towards it, but it's. Like a great opportunity for artists right now. I know tons of artists, and I'm sure most of the viewers do also that just sell, you know, directly or through their Instagram or whatever. They don't have a gallery, you know, and, and it's, it's also, you know, I think we all have a degree of creativity, and you just have to kind of put it into the into your posts, you know, you, you know, like a lot of people, do the same things over and over, like varnishing the paintings or whatever. I mean, I do that, but, you know, but you just be creative with it. You know, when I when I first got that, like, Aha moment, when I and I didn't get it, the aha moment until after it happened. But what I did is, for that studio sale, I laid out a whole bunch of paintings on my studio floor, and I took a picture of it, and I'm like, I'm gonna have a studio sale, and this, all these are going to be here, and frames and all kinds of stuff. And then people started emailing me that picture back and circling the paintings, like, how much is this one? How much? Like a lot of people, and I'm like, Oh, wow, this is really. This really works, you know, just this kind of organic. I'm not trying to sell individual painting. I'm just kind of showing them what I'm doing. And it worked great. Like I said, I sold almost everything before the actual opening of the the studio, so the physical opening. So I think it's just a matter of putting your creativity into the marketing side of your paintings and and it can be anything, you know, it can be anything. There's tons of ways to do it, you know, stuff that's not been done yet, stuff that's been done with your own little twist on it. It could be anything, but it's, you know, when you sell your stuff yourself, you don't have to give a percentage to the gallery. You know, it's, it's it's very nice. It's very nice. And, you know, the like, a lot of galleries don't share information, like, who bought your painting, so, so, you know, you get, you develop a relationship with that person. And a lot of times those relationships last years, right? They continue to purchase from you. So, you know, it's, it's good. And you I mean, I, like no one who has my paintings, you know, I enjoy that a lot, and they send you a picture of it on their wall or whatever. It's so gratifying, you know, so, so, yeah, that is, that's a really good side of kind of social media and being able to market yourself and be, you know, be a living artist. So today,
Nick Eisele: 32:45
I think it's a very broad question, so there's definitely a few avenues. So I think, like, what's, what's helped me, like, in my career, kind of sell my artwork the most, or get my name out there. I'd recommend, like number one is just entering, like, juried competitions. You know, whether they're like, local or national or international, you know, like Oba oil painters of America, or no apps, national oil and acrylic painters, international guild realism. Like those are they? They host juried shows multiple times a year, and they're usually at, like, pretty prestigious galleries throughout the country. So if you're able to get accepted into them, they're really good opportunities, because you know, your name will be sent out on different platforms and medias through these organizations. And then also, you'll get to display your work at these successful galleries that have, you know incredible clientele and have built a name for themselves in the industry. And also, you know, if they're, they're nearby, you can go visit and deliver your work in person and kind of, you know, get some face to face value and hopefully make an impression. You know, kind of, like, that's like, kind of a way to network. And, you know, one, you could you could win some decent prize money, which is always wonderful. And then two, you could sell your work through the show and gallery. The only downside is it's kind of an expensive investment, because you usually have to pay a membership fee a year. League membership fee to the organization, and then an entry fee to the competition. And then, you know, you may or may not get accepted, which is always a gamble. And then if you do get accepted, you got to frame your artwork in a nice presentation, and also ship your hardware and make sure it gets there safely, and so the price kind of adds up, and you may not recuperate the costs. So it's a risk, but I think, you know, it's kind of a necessary risk once, once you kind of feel like your your work is at a solid stage. Yeah. So, so that's like one, one avenue. And then, you know, of course, posting on social media, I can't claim to be like a mastermind at the algorithm or anything. I try to keep you know, my videos relaxing and simple, and you know, they're just time lapses, so that way I can just record them and post them and not have to worry about any fancy editing. And I'm thankful that they have performed, you know, extremely well and put me in a better position on social media. And I hate to say it, but having having a prominent presence on social media has been like quite beneficial to my career. So I wish I could say it's not necessary, because it's still crushing to deal with. But you know, companies or organizations
Unknown: 37:00
I you
Nick Eisele: 37:04
know, feel like they're taking less of a risk on you if you, you know, have a presence. So it does kind of put your name more on the top of the list, even. So, yeah, I'm not sure if I, if I answer the question, but maybe, like, a more specific question, I might be able to, like, dial in a little more.
Blair Atherholt: 37:31
But so I'll, you know, now that I do this full time, I'll, I teach workshops. I teach one or two workshops a year, and that's been great, you know, I've just started to get into, I've started exploring selling prints of my work as opposed to just originals. But honestly, the what I did for, you know, the early part of my career in art school is I had other part time jobs, so it's not ideal, but early on, it. It helped me out, you know, because I could pay my way through art school and and kind of get out in the world while I was still trying to figure out how to do this, you know. And I was really fortunate then to have some really good jobs that kind of brought something to the table for me in terms of my the way I approach art. I worked for a landscaping company, which was great, and it was really hard work, and it taught me the importance of really hard work and how much that pays off. And then later on, I, you know, when I was started doing this more full time, I bartended for a little bit, and that that kind of helped me out, because it brought me out of my shell a little bit more. You know, I wasn't just in the studio. I was out talking to people. And, you know, service industry stuff is good for that. You know, you kind of, you gotta talk to them. You can't just stand there. So I think that, while not ideal to have something that's not art, early on, I think that kind of helped me. But nowadays, like I said, I do workshops, and I've, like I said, started exploring some prints of my work, so little things like that definitely help. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
Vicki Sullivan: 39:21
I would say don't dive in the deep end without a safety net. So maybe transition into it. So I would have, like, a part time job or something as well at first, so that you've got money to pay bills. You don't want to end up in debt or hungry or homeless. So you want to be able to keep the wolf from door somehow, you know, have a bit of a part time job, and then as your sales grow and you know, you you can ease out of that. More into your painting, but don't just go right I'm going to become a full time baiter and jump straight in, because it can take a while to get known and build up your clientele and find your galleries or find your ways of selling. So you need to have a safety net and also put a certain amount away. At least, I would say 30% Save, save as well for the lean times, because they're, you know, there's probably going to be times we're not getting commissions where you're not having any sales. You still got to get by. So you need to put money away as savings as well. So you have to be quite financially savvy, I suppose. Yeah, and if you can work at home, you know, like, I don't know, for me, I know people who rent studios. I would never rent a studio. For me, renting is just dead money, so I used to paint in my dining room, and then I did save up and get a room built. But if you can work at home or find a spare room where you can work so that you're not paying double the rent, you know, especially if you're just beginning, don't, don't go into debt, because interest is just dead money. Rents just dead money. Try and find ways to be frugal, I suppose, with your money, because it's not paintings, not a regular income, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's either pouring or it's a drought kind of so you need to be prepared for both. So when you when it's pouring, make sure you put quite that side, so that when the drought comes, you've got enough to rely on to keep you going. I think, I think that's, you know, it's kind of important to understand that and not just fritter everything away. Be quite careful about how you hey about it, I suppose. Yeah. So it's not just painting. It's about being a business person, and you have to learn about it as well, don't we, you know, that's been quite difficult for me. It wasn't really in my nature to be a business person, but I've tried to learn as much as I can about that side of things. And also, I think having mentors is great. So, you know, I've got a really good friend that I walk with, and she's been a great business advisor, and she runs a dolphin boat where they go out and see take people Swimming with wild dolphins. But she's got so many good business ideas, and she's just given me really good, sound advice along the way. And, you know, and I was talking to Tina Garrett came and visited me a couple of months ago, and she was telling us about her business, one of her clients who's helped her with advice about business. And, you know, he owns a funeral parlor and florist and a venue for functions, you know, and he's given her advice now, so your mentors don't have to be other painters giving you business advice. They can be business people giving you business advice because you are running a business even though we're artists, and you know, we're really creative, to be living off our work, we are running a business. So, you know, learn about that as well and find people, seek out other business people that can give you advice about that side of things, I think, and they don't have to be
Brienne Brown: 43:56
painters. So I'm going to give the same advice, modified a little bit to the advice I got. Because when I first started to try to sell my work, I went to an artist, and then I knew, and I just said, Okay, what do I have to do? And I came with a notebook, and I was ready to like, okay, 1234, give me the steps. And he said, he was like, Well, you know, just paint and it'll come and I was like, Oh, that is so not helpful. But what I have to say is I think there's more to it than that. So it's not just that, but I think that is the first key step, is you've got to improve your craft. Keep painting, don't stop that should definitely be on your list of something to do very consistently, because the better you get at that step, the better you get at your craft, the easier it is to do step two. Two which is to get your work out there, get your work out there so that people can see it, and that it means start by entering local shows. There's tons of shows you can have locally. Then you can start branching out to, you know, wider range. Then you can go nationally, you know, and you can that's kind of what I did, is kind of stepping stone up. But it really is about who you know, networking. And I went to various shows and various conventions and stuff, and met people, and then my name was on their on their radar for when they wanted something else. And so definitely you have to get your work out there and talk to people, but the better you are at step one, that means keep painting, more doors will open in step two. So I think that's the key kind of, you know, progression. But also I would add that, and we kind of talked, we touched on this before, but realizing and discovering who your market is, I think, is a key thing, and that's so that's kind of the business side, but one and two are basically the main steps. And then as you're trying to improve your sales, it would be trying to really decide who your market is, and focusing your energy on marketing to that, that that group of people you know, and however that whatever that means for you. Oh, and then you asked about supplemental income, yes. So yes, I think there's lots of options nowadays, which I think are pretty fantastic, because no longer are we in the time where you need a gallery, right? You need a gallery to represent your work, you know? And that's still an option. And I'm in several galleries, and so it's good, but we are in a day and age where you as an artist can do a lot by yourself, right? And so teaching, of course, is one. I mean, that's classic that a lot of artists will end up teaching. I love to teach for so for me, that was a natural thing to supplement my income. There is also other businesses in the arts, I suppose that you could do, you know. I know artists that have done that also just online, figuring out, I never did prints, but I know a number of people that found out a really good way of making some, you know, regular income by doing that, you know, because not everyone can buy original art, you know? And that is true, and that's just, that's the fact of it, and that's okay. But some people still want good images. They still want good art. And so I think there's lots of avenues that are open if you wanted to look for that. Yeah,
Thomas Schaller: 47:57
I didn't have as much money saved as I should have. I made pretty good money as an architectural illustrator. I had some so that was a cushion that others didn't have. I started teaching, if I'm honest, sooner than I should have. I think I I do okay now, but I wanted to become an artist as a kid, because I thought that's a great way I can spend my days, never having to talk to anybody, cuz I always had such a hard time speaking to people. I was so shy in school and so timid, I don't know. So I thought, Oh, this is a great way. Maybe I can make a living painting the sitting in my studio and I never have to go to meetings or give presentations or or talk to people. So I started teaching, and I was incredibly fumbling and awkward, but what I recognized over a couple of years, time was I did have skills and things I could share, so I didn't feel fraudulent in that way. But what I realized is that if you were dedicated to teaching, you teach yourself as much as you teach your students. So what it afforded me was the opportunity to say out loud what I believed, and I'd never done that before. I'd written things down. I had a jumble of chaotic thoughts in my mind. But when you have to stand in front of a group of 20 or 30 people and say exactly how you feel about painting, for example, you realize that I really mean that, and either yes or no is the answer, or maybe partly I did. So I began to nuance and twist it and analyze it and think, and it's become a way for me to teach my. Self, how I really feel, the direction I want to go. And so my whole thing about teaching is just not teaching it. It's sharing my my artistic journey, but it really is. So yes, I started teaching as a way to supplement my income, because I wasn't selling anything at all in those days, and then I'm still teaching now, because I I love it.
Sarah Yeoman: 50:31
Well, I always said that, but then you have to make a living. So that's the tricky thing, you know, you know, I, when I was in my 20s, I was singing in a band. Didn't have any commitment, so I was I was working in restaurants and bartending, singing in a band, painting, occasionally selling, occasionally, ended up getting married, having kids, and worked in the restaurant business. We own a four story stone barn from the early 1700s in outside of Westchester, Pennsylvania. So I washed dishes, I bartended, I did all the floral arranging. My paintings were all over the walls, so and I still painted, and I started teaching. Then I had young kids, I still thought of myself as an artist. Was I making, you know, a full career of it, not really. I wasn't supporting myself on that, but I was working at it. So it took many years, really to I always thought of myself as a full time artist. I didn't have to make a living for a long time. And when my late husband passed, second husband passed 12 years ago, I kind of had to, like, get my self organized and do it as a full time artist. So, and it's been a challenge, and it still continues to be a challenge. I love what I do. It's, it's always a little tenuous. You know, week to week, month to month, are we going to make enough to pay the bills? So I have always taught for, you know, 35 years or so, so teaching has been a great supplement to my income. And I do sell a lot of original work. I sell prints. I do work with large printing houses who take my work and sell it to hotels and, you know, Pier One and those kinds of places. So there's a little bit of a supplemental income that way. So teaching has actually been very lucrative. When the pandemic happened, I started doing the online classes, Zoom classes, with the Lake Placid Center for the Arts, and we're still doing that four years later, once a month, I teach with them. I also do classes here in my studio. I've been teaching in upstate New York, in the Adirondacks, where my cabin is in the summertime. For 25 years, I've been teaching there so so you have to kind of be a master of many areas of it. Not I do sell work. Ideally, I could just sit in the studio and paint and sell work that way. But I do enjoy all of the other aspects of it too. I do enjoy teaching. I did get to travel to Europe for a couple of years and teach some plein air classes over in Tuscany, and that's been that was really lovely doing that. So how long have I been a full time? It's hard to say. You know, I just tell people, just call yourself an artist, get to work and and try things that are maybe are outside of your comfort zone. And I do. I've done a lot of volunteering of my time. I'll do free demos for organizations. I'll do fundraisers for organizations, because it gets your name out there in the community, working with a nonprofit like the Lake Placid Center for the Arts has been wonderful for me. I also show in their gallery up in Lake Placid, which has been really good for me as well, because they have an international clientele there. So and I've been fortunate enough to have been published in French magazines and US magazines. Some of my crows were used in the Ellie Saab, who was a designer the Haute Couture Paris runway shows, they use some of my crow paintings in their catalog one year when they had a theme of like kings or queens or something, and they wanted the crows represented. So some of the dresses had the resemblance to crow. So again, you never know where these things are going to come from. So I've been very fortunate that way, that I've that I've had those opportunities. Yeah.
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