Passion — The Driving Force of the Artist

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In this episode, we feature a compilation of past guests sharing their perspectives on how passion fuels their creative journeys, emphasizing its role as the heartbeat of their work. They discuss how passion not only inspires them to start projects but also sustains them through challenges and self-doubt. Several artists highlight how their deep emotional connection to their craft transforms their work into a form of self-expression and purpose. The episode explores the idea that passion is contagious, often resonating with audiences and creating meaningful connections. However, some guests also reflect on the balance required to avoid burnout, acknowledging that passion must be nurtured alongside discipline and self-care. Ultimately, the compilation underscores that passion is the invisible thread weaving together creativity, resilience, and fulfillment in the artistic process.

Episodes Mentioned:
39 Debra Kierce
47 Eric Armusik
56 Pavel Sokov
69 Scott Burdick
92 Blair Atherholt
101 Joseph Gyurcsak
114 Kyle Stuckey
115 Susan Hope Fogel
116 Liz Haywood-Sullivan
118 Shuang Li

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Transcript:

Joseph Gyurcsak: 0:00

Paint what you love and paint what you're truly passionate about. I mean, really, when you get down to it, I don't It's a calling. You're

Kyle Stuckey: 0:09

not gonna get through an art career without the real high highs and the real low lows. You

Shuang Li: 0:15

need a passion, yeah, and then you need to work on yourself. Be patient and yeah, get into the shows from the lower level to higher level.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:26

Welcome to the bold brush show where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In this episode, we feature a compilation of past guests sharing their perspectives on how passion fuels their creative journeys, emphasizing its role as the heartbeat of their work. They discuss how passion not only inspires them to start projects, but also sustains them through challenges and self doubt. Several artists highlight how their deep emotional connection to their craft transforms their work into a form of self expression and purpose. The episode explores the idea that passion is contagious, often resonating with audiences and creating meaningful connections. However, some guests also reflect on the balance required to avoid burnout, acknowledging that passion must be nurtured alongside discipline and self care. Ultimately, the compilation underscores that passion is the invisible thread weaving together creativity, resilience and fulfillment in the artistic process, and

Debra Keirce: 1:37

we do it because we have a passion where we don't have a choice, right? That I think it weeds out. I think this business weeds out the people who just, well, maybe doesn't weed everybody out. If you're just interested in marketing and you're really good at it, I think you can do really well, right? But, yeah, but people that have a passion for art understand that if you don't, it's not going to get you through those tough times. Like, I was at the portrait conference this weekend, and I was listening to Kevin McPherson. He had a talk, and he was talking about how he was down in Mexico painting. And there's these guys that, you know, in this area that he was in that looked like they wanted to kill him, but then they come over and they look over his shoulder and go, that's pretty good. We won't kill you today. You know, like you're, you're literally seeing yourself or, or, you know, James Gurney was talking about how him and Thomas Kincaid right after they graduated from college, way back when they were hobos, they jumped freight trains and lived in boxcars for years, you know, painting plenty, or painting people and everything like you put yourself into those risky situations. Why? Because you're so consumed and you're so all about the art, right? And, I mean, I don't think normal, not that we're all I think we're all insane there. We're just on that continuum of insanity, right, to the level that that it interferes with other people in your functioning in society, you know, is whether you get the white coat or not. But I think you have to be a little bit like, nutty, and so like, taken by this whole, you know, passion for the arts and putting beauty in the world, and being one of the creators, I post cards over there from I was standing in front of these cave drawings that are like 30,000 years old. So in the Ice Age, there's these cave people. I don't know what CRO magnons, whatever they were called back then. And instead of making baby CRO magnons, or hunting for food, or doing whatever they could do. Somebody, probably with spit or something, crunched up a whole bunch of Yellow Ochre and charcoal, and they crawled their way through, because you could see the little hole through these stalagmites and stalactites that, I mean, frankly, if you've ever been in one of those caves, if you tripped and fell on one of those, it would, it would spear you, right? Yeah. So death defying to get to this place on the cave wall, holding their torch, which, if your torch goes out, then you're dead, right? Yes, you find your way out holding their torch. And they found a way so that the cave wall creates a relief, you know, creates shadows, so and so they found a way holding their torch in a specific place where they could paint their they think it was deer they had. You can't like humps, like camels have humps, but they're like prehistoric deer on this wall, so that they were actually turning form with the light and the relief of the cave and the the paint that they had at the time, you know. And I'm sitting here thinking, okay, these are people who I don't know, even if they had language back then, or, I mean, nobody knows what, what it would have been like to be one of these people. But like that speaks to me, to how part of our DNA and our ancestry, the the whole idea of a passion for the art at even when we're at risk to create how inbred it is into some of us, right? So, I mean, I'm standing there going, that's, like, that's, that's crazy dude, because I'm like, watching. I'm, did I wear the right shoes? I could slip and fall. It's very damp in here, you know, like, if I break a hip in France, I'm really in trouble. You. Yeah, and here's this, this person who did this, and all these years later, we're looking at it going, Wow. I mean, it's a pictorial representation of, you know, what they were, what their life was like. And who knows. I mean, I'm thinking they probably have other colors that have dulled over the centuries. And, you know, it probably looked like some amazing, you know, yeah, Leonardo da Vinci kind of sistine temple thing when they did it. Now, this is what we're looking at, you know, but, but, I mean, I feel like it's that way still to this day, we're trying to figure out, in this modern world how to and it's not even necessarily for a lot of us, because we want to be in the spotlight, or because we want, you know, the fame or the recognition, I mean. But I think, don't you feel like it's kind of like, you just want to have a voice, you know, yeah, you just want to be there, be one of them, be part of the, the group that, yeah, you know, yeah. It's like,

Eric Armusik: 5:55

right out of school, like, as I said, I had a little bit of a, kind of a maverick spirit. I wanted to, I wanted to succeed, where everybody said I couldn't. But obviously, you know, we're all confronted with the daily needs of having to provide for ourselves, and then eventually, in my case, you know, a family of five. So I kind of had to go into the things that I knew that I could make money with at the time to support me. I tried doing something of an artistic situation. I thought would have worked out something would have provided something coming in. It didn't. So I had to kind of go into the crutch of my previous profession as a kid, working for my father in construction. So I worked with my dad from the time I was about nine years old, all weekends, all my holidays and everything else. I spent a lot of time doing that, and that's a whole nother story of why I had to do it, kind of as a kid getting in trouble, did something bad, and basically I worked for my father for about two years for free, but I learned a profession, and it was very helpful to me and and I kind of stress this with a lot of people that I do consultations with and career advice and stuff, is that, you know, take every experience that you have in your life, doesn't matter if you think it's related, and see how that can give you unforeseen advantages in your career. So for me, I was a carpenter, I trimmed out houses built, you know, did concrete, did roofs, dug ditches. I mean, everything they needed me to do, I did, but I learned a lot of things about, you know, working with framing wood and doing finish work, and later on in life, I was able to use that for building custom frames, doing large tabernacle frames, like I'm actually in the process of doing right now for a church. I have two of them I'm doing, but I relied on that for a little while, and then I was able to kind of get into a profession doing graphic design work for a company, and I had a little bit of experience with it in college. Oh, I was kind of on a job training, so I was able to learn Photoshop and a bunch of other things. And while I was doing my day job, working for this, I was a craft company at first, and then a technology company I was working for. I said, I don't want to do this forever. I want I'm doing this for money now some experience. So I built my business on the outside while I was working. So while I would work all day, I would come home eat dinner, and then I would get in my studio, and I would work like five, six hours or so at night until like two in the morning. And I realized that that sacrifice of sleep was necessary, because even if it was an extra hour or two each day, it was getting me that much farther out. So I got, you know, kind of a parallel career running. You know, I had my thing. I had to do for money, and my career was running at the same time. So in a number of years after it, I think it was probably about six, seven years after I really committed myself doing it, I was in a position where I was in a very good job, paying, being paid very well, and I left that job to become a full time artist. And by that time, I had both careers running. I it was like, you know, stepping off an escalator right into another one. And I was right. It didn't, didn't. There was no hiccups or anything. And I actually that first year, I made more money in the art career that I moved into than where I was working. So that was another, you know, where everybody was telling me, You're crazy. What are you going to do? You're going to ruin your life, and you're going to lose all that. You lose all the benefits of working for corporations. I couldn't wait to leave. You're right and but I think the biggest thing, the biggest advice, and I think I wrote a blog years ago for BoldBrush, for this, is, is, I think it was like 1010, reasons or things you should do to leave your job, or whatever it was, but it was really committing myself in the end, and going, if you're going to leave and you're going to your passion is to. Be in your career. Don't be a model employee. Do what you have to to get the employee thing done and satisfy your boss, and be everything else, but be kind of like a wallflower, you know, be somebody who not going to bring a lot of attention to you, because I spent all my time I would I would take my lunch break sometimes and just go in a car and do marketing. I would be sneaking out to make calls to people to do commissions. I was even painting commissions on the steering wheel of my car in the parking lot. You know, all my friends are like, all the work buddies are like, Hey, come out to, you know, to go out to eat with all of us. To be social. I'm like, No, I don't want to be social. I like you guys, but I want, I have this dream, and I have to achieve it. And at the time, I had, you know, two children, and I was watching my daughter every day look at me in the door, the window there and seeing your dad. Hate this. I don't want to miss their lives. I want to grow I want them to grow up in front of me. I want to be a good dad. I want to be home my wife. I love being at home. I've still to every day I enjoy a nice hour or two coffee with my wife in the morning, because it's the greatest part of my life. You know that all that sacrifice and all those staying up those hours and all that, you know, trying to be clandestine at work and do business, yeah, to get it out that equaled this. And I will never, ever regret any of it. I love it for everything I ever dreamed about. I'm doing right now, and I want to grow it bigger and bigger, and I want to help more people do the same, because I believe it's achievable, but you have to believe it. You can't just go people can't achieve that dream anymore. It's just not possible. And I'm like, it's more possible than ever right now in the world where we're all connected, it's not like it was when I got out of college. It's it's so much better. And this is, this is worth doing, you know?

Pavel Sokov: 11:58

And I believe that when a person continues to do exactly what they want to do at a high level with passion and continue to just hammer on it like I recognize now that, for example, galleries aren't exactly going to cancel their next Western cowboy themed show, which they know sells well, in order to do a one man Ethiopia tribes show that's not they're not exactly dying to do that, but I'm gonna keep hammering at this until you're basically forced to just comply with my interests. Look this ends in one way only. I'm painting this until I die, or until you become interested in what I'm interested in, because I'm just refused to stop so. And I think if you do that, I mean, how are new markets created? Is through passion and through just chipping and chipping and chipping at it, and not changing yourself for the world, but making the world change to your preference, which is obviously pretty challenging, but I think, I think we can do it at least we're gonna find out, because that's what I plan to do. Yeah, when you're so excited about something, like, I love talking and making friends with non artists, if they're passionate about what they're doing, I love hearing them talk about, well, what they love, like particularly scientists, even like people in finance, I love hanging out with them, and just whatever you're excited about is just, can be infectious in a good way. I think, or at least to me, I'm drawn to the passion and interest of other people and doing something productive and difficult, and people will you can show people what is interesting about what you find interesting, you know, over time, yeah, or in the very least, maybe it will work, but you'll have a fun life, and you'll be proud of the work you made, even if People didn't get it, and they decided to buy whatever's on Tiktok these days, or whatever.

Scott Burdick: 14:26

Because when I started, even though I had done a lot of drawing from photos and things and comic books as a kid, when I started taking life drawing classes, I didn't know anything, and they were so bad. And then over those two years, I got better and better by taking classes before then, in fact, the the director of the school, Irving Shapiro, he Mr. Parks art, my teacher at the academy who taught Dan Gerhard and many and Thomas blacksher, many great, great artists, they would keep some of our first drawings our first month, and you look at them then later, you know, through the year. To see how much you've come across. And so when I finished the academy, Mr. Shapiro asked if he could keep one of my one a couple of my first drawings that I did and the ones I did when I finished there, and he would use those to show to high school students when they go around and give their talk on the school and and he said the students were just like, they're like, the person who did that did this when they finished, because people were like, he's like, Oh, you gave all these high school kids hope, this idea that they have to already be great before they start school. Because my first ones were so bad, all these high school students thought, well, we're all better than that. But if you could do that, that would be great. And so I think a lot of a lot of it is just what you enjoy. You know, if you enjoy it enough, you're going to put a lot of time and effort into it. And that was the same in school. We would go to the palette and chisel, Nancy Guzik and me and rose Franson, a lot of us, we would go to the palette chisel after school and paint there a full another three hour session, and on the weekends, and very few other students did that, but those that did all became great artists, even people who were much better than us in school. But so being so just passionate about it is what led to the skills. So that knack, you know, the idea of, like, you're just naturally talented. It's like that whole 10,000 hours sorts of idea, I think that it's over overstated, you know. I think it's more about, you know, you know, you're just, you've got to go into something that you're really, really passionate about, and then you'll get good. So don't think, Oh, I'm not good, so I shouldn't go into this. You know. It's really more about what you're inspired by and if it takes you three years to get where it took somebody else one year, you know you'll get there. And then it's more about what you're going to say with your art or with your stories. That's really what matters the most. It's not this technical skill, the technical skills important, but it's really more about, you know your desire to express something

Laura Arango Baier: 17:03

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Scott Burdick: 18:43

I went to school, you know, the teachers set up the models for us, and we would Nancy Guzik and I and different artists rose friends. So we, you know, we had life during the morning and that, well, painting afternoon, and then we go to the palette chisel after school. And it was just about trying to learn how to draw a nose to look like a nose or face, to get your proportions. I mean, you really weren't expressing yourself that much. We were just learning our vocabulary, what we were going to use to speak later. But there are some artists who never go beyond that. They just get caught into the and it is. It's a wonderful thing to just draw something beautifully or paint something beautifully. But if you're not taking your own getting your own models, lighting them, finding your own subjects. You know, we get lots of people ask us if they see some of the photographs we on the Patreon too. We'll do photo sessions with models and to show people how to use cameras, how to use lighting, all the sorts of stuff that you need. We didn't learn in school. I didn't even have a camera until I finished school. But those are things you have to learn. You have to get good at those, those those aspects as well. But people will write and say, Oh, can I buy photos from you? Because these are so beautiful. And I always feel like that's not You're not thinking. Being right, you know, because you can get all kinds of great photos from the internet and stuff, but, and this is my viewpoint, because some people will take photos that from magazines or whatever, and then they'll transform them into completely their own thing. So that's totally different. But for me personally, once I finished got to that level where I started to get my basics down, that was where I was like, I'm so excited to go out and get my own subject matters. And some of the first things that I was most excited about painting was on I would go on these volunteer trips to built a orphanage in Mexico, and volunteered at a refugee camp for El Salvador and Guatemalan refugees in Texas, and then on in South Dakota, living with a family on the Navajo, on the Lakota reservation, those sorts of things. And then as soon I started to travel, that was it was like art was an excuse to go to these places and discover things, and then to put them into my paintings, to share them with other people, my viewpoint, but what I've learned from those people, and I feel like, if it doesn't even have to be traveling far, I mean, just people that we meet around here, down the street from us, you know, painting all these people, or in your yard, animals that you you see, or your own animals, or your own family, those, I think, are the more important subject matters to paint, not just that. Oh, this is a beautiful photograph that somebody else took, that personal experience. I think is what art is about. I think it is what writing is about. When I first started writing in school, you know, so many the really good writers there were writing things that were their own experiences. And I had one of my short stories published when I was when I was taking writing classes at Columbia College in an anthology book, and because it was a personal experience of myself. And so those are what's going to be valued more than your technique or anything you need to get your technique just like you need to get your writing skills up to tell your story, but making it personal, something that matters to you, I think, is the number one thing that all artists need to think about. And I find it sad sometimes where I'll go out with young artists. And they'll be like, Look at that. Isn't that cool? You know, some old car, whatever it is. It might not be something interesting to me, but it is to them. And I'll say, Well, you should paint that, like, oh, but that's not really a subject galleries are looking for. It's like, you can't talk yourself out of that, because if it's something you're passionate about, it will strike a chord in people. And that's something I think that is hard to teach. I we tend to just on Patreon, mostly talk about, we'll talk about the inspirations that we have for things, but it's hard, because everybody will have their own inspiration. And technical things are easier to teach because they are. We can all agree on, you know, what the values are and stuff. But, you know, and I see artists talk themselves out of painting things that they actually love. They love children, they love flowers, they love beauty of nature. And they'll say, Yeah, but I won't be considered important artists. If I do this, I gotta do something with a message or this or that, so both can be true, you know, just because, you know, and so, but that's what's great about like, what Sue and I do, is, when you're doing an original painting, you you can find one person who's going to like it. You just need to find the right place to sell your work. So if whatever you paint, if you like classic cars, you're going to send it to a different place. So, or if you like comic books, then you're going to your art will be best sold this way, or whatever graphic novels or fantasy art. So it's best to find the thing you're passionate about then find the outlet. But it's easier with paintings. If you're passionate about something, to find that one person, you only need to find one person who has that same reaction to something as you do. And so that's one of the reasons why I shied away from doing prints. We did some in the very beginning, years ago, like 35 years ago, I did a couple, and they did well for a print company. But then they're pretty much asking you, well, you got to pick a subject that is more, you know, widely, that you can sell 1000s of not just one. And that's when I said, this isn't for me, because, you know, then I'm it's in my head, and I have to think about that. I will start to paint for that market. And so, so it depends on what your what your market is, but there's, there's something out there for everybody. And I, I, I find that when I used to teach workshops, that was the biggest obstacle, was people. We still get lots of emails about that and saying, yeah, yeah, those are all great, but I need to make a living at this and and I understand that. And when I was in school, and just after school, I did portrait commissions, I did whatever I needed to make. Money, but then it also had this part where I did what I wanted to do, and the goal was eventually to make a living off of that. So there's nothing wrong with painting things or doing commissions or whatever will pay the bills, but still, keep in mind those things that you are passionate about, otherwise you'll start to hate, you know, you'll hate being an artist. And nobody really goes into art to make a lot of money. I mean, it's not really the best plan. So if you get stuck in that, you're going to start to resent, you know, you feel like, why didn't I just become an account or something, you know? So I don't, I It's really difficult, because you have to just follow what you're interested in, and it's it is being an artist, being a writer, all those sorts of things are, are very much a something that's not guaranteed. So if I go to work for somebody, if I go to work for DreamWorks, or other places, then it's more guaranteed. And and people have different personalities. There are just incredible artists that work at the studios in different places, and some of them there, that's just their passion. They love being given a project and to work on. And then they, they, they, they do it. It's collaborative. So you have to kind of judge your own self, you know? I I just am not that kind of person. I really do like working on weird things, half of which don't sell, but enough sell, and so you have to look at your own self. Do I have the personality for this? Are you really driven to want to do your own things, or is it better to work for a place and then just not have that? Some people the stress of having to come up with money. I mean, especially we don't have kids. You have kids, you have all the sorts of expenses. It can be very stressful. So maybe it's not right for you to have the stress of trying to make a living. We have people will come to us and say, well, I need to make this amount of money a year. How can I do that with being a painter? And sometimes you're just like, well, you know you're putting yourself under so much stress, you know that you're not going to be able to do your own work. Maybe it's better to do something else for your money and then do this for yourself, because that can be pretty stressful. So I think taking my best advice is taking the pressure off yourself however you can, whether it's another job and then do this part time. I mean, that's what I did with writing or moving places, if you can, like we move places to take the stress off us. I know that if I lived in a place that was very expensive and we had lots of kids and things like that, I probably would have to have done more things to just make money. Um, so there's, there's nothing wrong with that. That's a great thing, you know. And and even if I were to go work for films I love, like you said, I love spirit, I love those things, I would be happy working in places like that, too. So it's, it's really hard to give specific advice, I think trying to make it so you don't have too much stress with that put so much pressure on you, that's always going to be the death of creativity. So I think

Blair Atherholt: 28:16

the most important thing for me is to paint what you love and paint what you're truly passionate about, because you can literally paint anything. Why, like don't waste your time painting things that you aren't interested in or or don't feel something about. Because I think that comes through. I know it comes through. I see it sometimes in some of those failed paintings where, you know, I just wasn't passionate about this setup or this subject or, you know, I think that really, like you said, even your your head space, kind of comes through into in your work. So I would always recommend like finding something that you love to paint and just painting that stick with that. Fall in love with the process. Fall in love with the, you know, the subject matter, whatever it is, just really get passionate about it. And, yeah, I think that'll come through in your work. And collectors will see that that'll come, that comes through on social media. You know, it's, it's maybe the most important thing to me is kind of following that where your your interests are and what you're like, desperate to paint next. And another thing it kind of ties into that is, is don't paint specifically to sell. I think, you know, if I know, I can sometimes get stuck in a rut where it's like, I'll do a painting and like, you know, it sells and it's great, and I'll kind of find myself fall. Back into that same framework that that successful painting was in. So and collectors, I think can collectors and viewers in general of your work, can see that, I think when it's like you're just kind of playing the same note over and over again. So, yeah, there's those. I think those are the two. The two, like, core principles that I think will lead to a career in the arts is, you know, find something you're really passionate about and stick to that. And you know, don't just paint to sell something here, as as vague as that might sound, but

Joseph Gyurcsak: 30:43

the key to my success is perseverance and determination, sheer determination. I'll well, first of all, you asked me early on my journey, I you don't choose to be an artist. You don't wake up one day and say you're going to be an artist. I at least, I don't look at that way. Yeah, people can want to become a painter and everything, but if, for me, in the soul, I mean, really, when you get down to it, I don't It's a calling. It's a calling because there's no way that you can stay with something for 50 years. I've been painting for 50 years. There's no way you could stay into for something with all the ups and downs that you would be able to come now on the other side in a better way, if you weren't fully committed to it, you know, and it was a passion. And it's one thing to have a passion that's good and that's important, but you also have to have a burning desire, and you have to have, you know, that determination to follow through. You're

Kyle Stuckey: 31:57

going to have to put in a lot of time, and you're going to have to be resilient. You're not going to get through an art career without the real high highs and the real low lows, kind of we talked about before. But I think that's, I think that's really important for success. You can be winning reward after award, and you're thinking, Oh, I like, I made there is, like, said, like, there's no end to the journey, right? Like, there is no top of the mountain in this career. There's just the journey. And you're gonna get like, these beautiful views every once in a while, and then you're gonna trip and fall on the rocks. It is what it is. Um, so kind of just being like, I think be prepared for those. And being thick, thick skinned, I think that's like, what also makes it challenging is like this art, like creating art is so like personal and so it's so vulnerable. I guess we're creating work that is kind of just like our feelings and expressions of the world that we live in. And at the same time, you have to be thick skinned enough to take rejection and and that balance can be a little bit challenging. So be resilient and be hopeful and passionate in your work, I think is you have to do these two things gotta be tough and and vulnerable at the same time. Yeah, that's from just a feeling sense and work a lot paint a lot. You can go to many workshops as you want, or read the best books. You could read Richard's book 100 times over. But if you're not trying with the paint brush. It's not going to matter. So, so you just got to, like, dedicate time to the easel. Whether that's a half hour day, whatever you got, you know, whatever you can do, but it has to be consistent. Consistency is, is, I think, is key for any success. You know, if you don't, if you don't show up for the muse, the Muse is going to stop showing up for you, in a sense. So get in behind the easel when you can, and do it as much as you can in whatever phase of life you're in, and then the chances are you're gonna, you're gonna be able to be able to do it? Yeah, because it's not impossible by any means. It's just it's just challenging. If you

Susan Hope Fogel: 34:47

have a very strong desire and a passion, and you would do anything to get your art done, you would put everything else on hold and to work in. Studio to get that done. If that passion exists and the discipline to work you, you will, you'll, you'll move forward, and you'll keep improving and getting better and finding ways to exhibit and sell your work and so on and so forth. And I think it's it's hard to judge your own work. So getting feedback from people who are knowledgeable, and getting help and and if you feel you need some work, you know, take the classes. Look for a teacher that I mean my I have a few teachers that change the way I work, the way I see, really is because then, as an art teacher, you're teaching people to see more than teaching them how to paint or draw or anything, and finding that teacher who can do that for you, to bring you up to the next level, keep improving you. And I tell my students, you know, find other teachers to go to. Don't just learn from me, because you're going to learn something different from somebody else, to improve your work and find the work of people that you admire, that you love, you know, and take some classes, whether it's online or in person or that that was something to just even at this this age, I'm ready to I want to learn more. So I'm always open to, you know, taking classes and courses, finding out, you know, because I think the more I learned about art, the more I realized, you know, I had to learn. It was so much the change you do grow. It is an upper spy. It is an upward spiral, because it's so much easier to say, no, yeah. It's so much easier to edit out the BS. It is so much easier to just and to actually be able to look back and say, oh, yeah, been here. Done that? No, no, no, no. It's it's still exciting. It's still I wouldn't

Liz Haywood-Sullivan: 37:06

want to do anything else this. I am so I, you know, I may be whatever age I am. I mean, I'm 68 I may be 68 but I'm still, I feel like, Nah, maybe I've just hit my 40s, you know, I have that, that interest and that love of what I do, I would I am the most fortunate person in the world that I have the ability to do my painting, and it makes a living for me. And I don't retirement mean, ah, if you want to call it retirement. I retired when I was 40, when I stopped working in the corporate world and I became a fine artist. I have no intention of ever stopping what I'm doing until they put me in the ground. I love what I do. And you know, you know, we have a passion, and how Fortunate are we that we do have that and we do good work. You know, what do we and that's, that's the thing about art. I tell this to my students all the time. I said, Yeah, we do important work. You know, what do we know about cultures that have come and gone? The art lasts culture. You know, it's not the the baseball hero, it's, it's, you know, it's the sculptures and the mosaics and the jewelry and the literature and the arts are very, very important. And so it's, it's like this painting right here. It's the North River, which is just down the street from me. I'm about 30 miles south of Boston on the coast. This same Marsh. Martin Johnson, he painted 130 years ago, the exact same Marsh, and there are pictures of it. He's got a series of paintings, and one of them shows people harvesting the salt hay. And so the when you go see a marsh, and you see those channels that are carved into the marsh, remember the first time i What's that all about? Oh, it's drainage so you don't get mosquitoes. What those were is they had long, narrow boats that they would go in. They'd cut these channels so these long, narrow boats could get in there so they could harvest down the marsh hay to feed their animals to for their buildings. So that was 130 years ago. This was a recent painting. So 130 years from now, what is that going to look like? Because I know this marsh is not going to be here, not like it is, and this looks very similar to when Martin Johnson he painted it with the channels. But in the 25 years that I've lived here, I've seen the high tides that occasionally would be so high that would cover this and make it look like a lake. Those were occasional high tides, king tides. They happen almost every day, if, if not every week, if every every week, if not every day, because the water level has risen in Massachusetts Bay and the small islands that are out here that have trees on them, the trees around the perimeter, the islands are all dying because their feet are in salt water all the time. And so even something like a pretty painting, you know, a landscape painting, this is marking time. This is marking time. This is a statement about our what our world looks like in our environment. And artists are we observe, we capture, we and even if it's an abstract it's an interior landscape that we're dealing with, but we are celebrating the best of mankind, this interior struggle that we have with ourselves. It's very important work.

Shuang Li: 41:34

You cannot just say, Okay, I quit my day job, then the next day I'll become full time artist. I actually prepared that for more than 10 years. Believe it now. So that means in the 90s, actually, I already was painting, take workshops and following all these societies. But I didn't really join. I joined some at the time I was in the Northern California, I joined some locals. I entered some pieces at the local member shows. That's why, the very beginning I mentioned that if you wanted to to be serious, Join your local societies first. Most of local art societies, they they are member based, so they usually will have more than one show per year. When you come to the national ones, we sometimes, we call them the show only societies, so they only do one or two shows per year. That's it. And then, and it's hard to reach. How can you reach, you know, someone in New York, if you're in California. So it's difficult. So I actually, when I moved to California that time, I mainly, you know, I, I was focusing on painting the water colors. So I joined the multiple local watercolor societies. Even I was working every month I would be sending my piece because it's local. You can drive there and you know their schedule, and then I just drop off my painting to get into the member shows. So those helped greatly. So before I even quit my day job. I was already teaching, so they already invited me to teach. I forgot whether I got a signature member beforehand. Probably, yeah, so that was because I kept the painting, kept entering, and kept getting a worse from the member show. Then I realizing maybe it's a good time. I can apply, you know, signature member, and then they require the international level show for three times. And you can, you know, get the signature member. Then I start teaching. Then, then after that, for couple of years, none. I finally quit my job. I felt I was ready. So you have to, well, you don't really have to, but if you're financially able, you can just quit, right? But I think for art career wise, you need to prepare. You need to prepare that and seeing your progress and asking yourself, do I still wanted to do this for another 10 years or 20 years, or in my life, you needed to have that passion, you know, to to support you as well, not only the money thing, because a lot of I saw some students, they start when they retire, whatever They had this huge urge to learn the paint. So they were very working very hard. Then the pretty soon they kind of like lost their opinion. Oh, it's so difficult I'm not making enough progress. Then they kind of stopped. So in that case, you just. Not jump into the pro world because you don't have enough passion to go through, to help you to go through the difficult, you know, growth period. So that will be my opinion. I would say you need a passion, yeah, and then you need to work on yourself. Be patient, and yeah, get into the shows from the lower level to higher level.