Shuang Li — Slow and Steady Brings Success

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On today's episode we sat down with Shuang Li, a classically trained Chinese-born artist who captures the world around her in an impressionistic approach. Shuang tells us about her transition to a full-time art career after working in graphic design and IT. She discusses the importance of patience, persistence, and passion when pursuing a career in the arts and reminds us that slow and steady will bring you success. She also shares with us how her background in design has influenced her painting approach, particularly in understanding value patterns and composition. Shuang emphasizes the value of starting with local art organizations and gradually building a reputation before applying to prestigious national shows. She also highlights the role of marketing tools like newsletters and her website in connecting with collectors and students. Finally, Shuang tells us about the local painting exhibition she's preparing with her fellow local watercolorists!

Shuang's FASO site:
https://www.shuanglifineart.com/

Shuang's book "Watercolor Plein Air Basics":
https://store.bookbaby.com/book/watercolor-plein-air-basics

Shuang's YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@ShuangLiWatercolors

Shuang's Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/shuangli.artist/

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Transcript:

Shuang Li: 0:00

But I think for art career wise, you need to prepare. You need to prepare that and seeing your progress and asking yourself, do I still wanted to do this for another 10 years, or 20 years, or in my life, you needed to have that passion, you know, to to support you as well. It's not only the money thing. You need a passion, yeah, and then you need to work on yourself. Be patient and yeah, get into the shows from the lower level to higher level.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:32

Welcome to the bold brush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. On today's episode, we sat down with strong Li, a classically trained, Chinese born artist who captures the world around her in an impressionistic approach strong tells us about her transition to a full time art career after working in graphic design, and it she discusses the importance of patience, persistence and passion when pursuing a career in the arts, and reminds us that slow and steady will bring you success. She also shares with us how her background in design has influenced her painting approach, particularly in understanding value patterns and composition. Shong emphasizes the value of starting with local arts organizations and gradually building a reputation before applying to prestigious national shows. She also highlights the role of marketing tools like newsletters and her website in connecting with collectors and students. Finally, Shuang tells us about the local painting exhibition she's preparing with her fellow local water colorists. Welcome Shuang to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Shuang Li: 1:51

Good. It's a, finally, a calm day, hopefully here in Southern California.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:57

Wonderful. That's awesome, yeah, and it's been so crazy over there with the fires. So I can imagine, you know, it's, it's been quite a complicated month in the new year, yes, but yeah, I'm so excited to have you because your work is absolutely gorgeous. I love your color work. I love the expressiveness of how you describe the scenes that you paint. I think they're so pleasing to look at. And I think obviously our listeners, I encourage them to go to your website. It's going to be in the show notes, to go look at your work while we're talking. Or if they're watching the video, they can see some of your images as well. But yes, your your work is so beautiful. And I also love that you you use both watercolor and water based oil paints, because, you know, it's probably a lot easier to travel with them, first of all, and second of all, I think it still creates that quality that I can see in your work of expressive strokes without, you know, being a difficult medium to carry around, especially with the oil paints, because the oil paints can be very complicated to travel with. So yeah. So before we dive into your work a little bit more, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Shuang Li: 3:17

Yeah. So my name is Charlie. I originally, I was born and educated in China, and I came to the United States in the 1980s and you can tell you know how old I am. I got my painting training, I would say, the fine arts training, when I was in high school, you know, from a professional relative, so I always loved, or wanted to be a fine art artist. Just paint. And since I was 16, I kept painting. And then I got into fine art college. So my four years of college was, though major in graphic design, but I also did a lot of painting. We have a lot of painting as a foundation courses, so that gave me a solid basic skills later, before I came to United States, I also taught for six years at the university level, and then I decided I needed something more. So I didn't know what what was that more? But I came over anyway, and I got my second master degree in the fine arts from University of Oregon and I started working as graphic designer, and later in the IT industry as a designer for more than 20 years. During that 20 years, I never stopped painting, and so that pretty much. Was my pre pro life. Painting was always has been, and was since I was a little, you know, always a my biggest passion, and I couldn't give up. So that was my previous life. Started 2011 I decided it's enough for me for the full time job. I quit, and my husband gave me full support, so I started, you know, as a full time artist, and till today. So that's pretty much a short version of my life.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:44

Awesome. And it's good to know that you've always been in the art world. I know that some guests that have had, they might have had a completely different career, or, you know, they were encouraged to pursue something more practical, quote, unquote, instead of the arts in any way. So it's good to know that you were always going for the arts no matter what, even if it's graphic design or IT related, because, of course, those are fields that are a little bit more secure when it comes to the arts compared to fine art on its own.

Shuang Li: 6:14

Yeah, you have to pay the bills, right? Everybody Exactly,

Laura Arango Baier: 6:18

exactly. And you know, when you're an artist, it takes a while to build up to a point where you can, you know, live just from your work. It's very, very rare that anyone can immediately make a living from painting only. So it's, yeah, it's very rational to have, you know, pursued those careers? Do you find that your your background in graphic design has helped you with your artwork in any way, like maybe composition or color?

Shuang Li: 6:53

It's actually I didn't realize until much later, when I start serious like painting as a full time I realized that, especially when I was teaching, I constantly use the word design and then I use the word design elements. So definitely my graphic design background, the early training helped me to unders not only understand that, but also put into a practice, especially, you know, when I was teaching, I can point out why you needed to paint this way, why you shouldn't be doing that way. So the design, definitely design and fine art, many, many times we use the same concept, same principles.

Laura Arango Baier: 7:48

I agree, yeah. And I think, if anything, from my perspective, I think careers that are design focused are a little bit more ahead in the compositional aspect. Because I think in the fine art world, oftentimes we're just told it's until it looks good, right? You have, you just move stuff around until it looks good. But with you know, if you already know design, you already know what's supposed to look good, you already have, like, these general sort of rules that you can follow that are taught to you right away, basically, so that you know that's a really good carryover. So I think there's that advantage that design careers have a little bit over just fine art, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I wanted to ask you also, because you paint really beautiful plein air landscapes. But as I said earlier, water, color and oil when you are deciding your subject matter, what do you look for when you're looking for something that you want to paint?

Shuang Li: 8:55

Okay, so that's a great question. The Pioneer also in the students, saying, if you use other reference materials, so when I go outside, the world is in front of you so big. So what I was actually looking for is not the actual things, let's say trees in the house or a river or the rocks. What I really looking for is, can this one make a good design? See, I already start mentioned the word design. Can this, this scene, make it into a good design, into my painting? And the first thing I would look usually, is what I call is a value pattern. What does that means? I will look like my main subject matter over there in the distance or close by. This is a light against the dark, or the dark against the light. Okay, so, for instance, if it's a white ocean wave against the dark rock, so I have to decided I'm going to make the white wave as my main focus, or as the rock as my focus. You have to pick. You cannot say, Oh, I'll have a half, half, yeah, they are together. But you really have to say, what this moment touches me and I want to paint. So if I use the rock, definitely, I'm using the whole rock as a darker elements against the lighter sky, then in front of the rock, then I'll have the white wave. So that white wave, you have to remember, you cannot make it a half half. You have to make it as a prominent but you have to remember you're painting the rock as your main dark elements against the background. So that's usually how I pick but if you say, oh, today I'm just going to one of the ocean wave, and then you have to make the ocean wave against something that's darker than the white wave. So that will help me instantly design, design and thinking my painting as a from the value perspective, instead of thinking about the things, you know, the wave, splash, or, you know, there's a bird over the rock, etc. So I'll temporarily forget about those details, but focusing on the values, value pattern and how dark, how light my composition needs to be,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:41

yeah, yeah. I think that's a very reasonable way to approach it, because, like you said, it's so easy to get a little lost in how nice everything is. And, you know, you lose that focus. And obviously, if you want to make a really powerful painting that draws the viewer, you need to have a place where you you want the viewer to look, right? If everything is, you know, equally treated and equally in focus, then the viewer is just going to look around, and it's going to be a little bit confusing for them to know where to look. So I think that's a very it's very wise,

Shuang Li: 12:16

yeah, well, I, what I usually say is, don't be too hungry, you know, you go outside and you wanted to put everything in there, yeah, everything is beautiful. But don't be too hungry. You can paint not only one, but 10 or 100 paintings in the same spot, but you have a different composition. So pick what's important this time to you? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:37

yeah. Again, very smart. And I wonder if that's also something that, you know, obviously comes from, like the design aspect of, like graphic design. Because oftentimes in graphic design, there is, you know, a focused sort of element that you want to highlight, and then everything else, kind of, like, has to, you know, either point to that element or be at a lower hierarchy, right? There's, like, a bit of a hierarchy there, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's fascinating how it works out, you know, the the crossover between, you know, the arts and, yeah, it's really cool, yeah.

Shuang Li: 13:13

So in the end, you know, I think after so many years, you just realize, Oh, now I see everything. It's connected, just like you're painting, you know, you need everything to be well connected. The art world, the knowledge, you know, after certain years of trying, you will see the knowledge actors is connected everywhere, yeah, from different field, they all come to help,

Laura Arango Baier: 13:38

yeah, yeah. And I think the other thing that I find interesting because a lot of the concepts that you mentioned, you mentioned, you know, I've seen them in the Andrew Loomis book, where he talks about all the design elements and composition. I forget the name of the book right now, but he also mentions, you know, those value schemes. And it what's what I think is interesting also is when, when someone just comes from a fine art background, where they just learn technique. We're not really taught the value scheme idea very much, at least in my experience. But it's something that when you do know it the way that that you might it becomes a very implicit thing that you learn in the design world very naturally, and then you don't realize that you know, that you know it's one of those things where you know, it's so well, it almost becomes intuition, whereas with, you know, some, some fine art background people, it might be a little bit more, like I said earlier, elusive, like it's almost like, oh, it's until it looks good, or Oh, you gotta just play around with it. Of where you know, if you already know how value schemes work and how to bring focuses and the highlights and everything, then it's a lot easier to just focus make a piece instead of fumbling a little bit. If you know what I mean, yeah,

Shuang Li: 14:53

I actually think I didn't know what or how. Powerful, the value the value pattern, or the value scale, should be in the painting for quite a long time. So I always wondered why my painting doesn't really look right or look good. I also claim, you know, my color wasn't right, or the detail. I didn't really know this, how to paint this little thing, etc. But later, when I found this, it was like, this is the hugest aha moment. You would say, oh, that's because my value was wrong. Sometimes the process the word saying the value does all the work, the color gets all the credit. We all know that, right? But how, how I actually found out and helped myself to improve on the awareness of values is you could simply turn your painting into black white, then instantly you will know, and you compare to the pros or the paintings you admire, you do the same thing, you know, take a photo of that painting, compare these two, black, white, instantly you will know, oh, that's why the other painting is so good or so powerful. You know, it's because the value is correct, even, like the piece as the impressionism piece of like, colors everywhere, you couldn't really realize it, but when you turn it into the black and white, you will see it,

Laura Arango Baier: 16:36

no, yes, yes, absolutely. And it's, it's really, I think it's very natural for us to be so in love with color and to want to emphasize color. But I Yeah, 100% value is always going to be higher in the hierarchy than color, like color you can play with after but yeah, those value scales and making sure that things like, if something isn't looking like it's popping out enough, it's probably because it's the same value as the things around it, and it's just getting lost in there. So there's, there's that really subtle power that you know, like you said, value needs to have. This, the subtle power that color kind of, like, distracts us from, you know, like colors like, oh yeah, that's pink, so I'm going to make it extra pink, or that's yellow. I'm going to make it extra yellow, but before you know it, you have this mess that things usually aren't as chromatic as we think they are. Correct? Yes, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, because you've taught for a long time, and I wanted to know, what is something that you would recommend for someone who really wants to improve at the craft of painting.

Shuang Li: 17:57

So this is a very good question. So I think it will be two things. One is, you needed to understand what's behind it. That's why you take workshops and such. You needed to understand what's behind us to make it good painting like, what are we said? You know, the design, the composition, the design principles and how you use these knowledge. How you use this knowledge is the key is jumping from you read a book, you say, I understand what the author says, but can you practice on your painting. So that's so first, you need to understand in theory a lot of things you know, read the books and such. Then when you move to the practice part, of course, you will remind yourself, when you're doing the painting, don't go back to your old way. You need to work on your knowledge into your painting at that time. Usually you try that, and you will create a lot of disasters. So that's the period you're struggling. You try to apply new lot new knowledge. I always say when people come to my workshop or so, okay, so here's the workshop we're going to start, but you have to lower your expectations. I expect everybody painted paint your worst piece, not the best piece in my workshop. Why? Because you need to learn new things. So that's the part. I think people always thought, gee, they came to a class or workshop, they would have a masterpiece painted as the teacher, the instructor, which is actually, I would say, it's totally opposite. So be patient, is the second part practice, and be patient. Much. I gave a phrase to my serious student. I said, you know, if you think anything is good in my painting, any brush stroke, any composition, any color, looks good, I failed at least 999 times. So prepare that, and you keep practicing using the knowledge users gain, and keep practicing. So this will create a positive circle and move you forward.

Laura Arango Baier: 20:38

Yes, that's very true. I think a lot of us, especially today, with, you know, social media and with the internet, there's this feeling that everything has to be fast, right? So very few of us have, you know, been able to build the patience to take it slow and make sure that things are steady. Because everyone, and, you know, I've met a lot of people who just really, really want the end results without necessarily going through all of the work for it. I think that's, you know, I think it's also human nature. We really want things now, but it takes time. And I think, in my opinion, when it does take time, I think it's much more rewarding we do get to that perfect brushstroke or that beautiful composition, or that really nice painting, because you can feel that you worked well for it, not necessarily worked hard, but worked a lot, and were patient. You know, like you said, I totally agree, and I think it also applies very much to the career of an artist, right? It takes time. It's good to be patient in that way as well. So which actually I was going to ask you too, what was it like for you when you made that jump into becoming a full time artist?

Shuang Li: 22:02

Well, I actually, on one side, it's kind of scary, right? You know, you know, from a practical side, you all of a sudden, you you don't have that paycheck who comes in every two weeks. So you have to say, Oh, my God, you know, I'm going to make a payment. So you have to prepare that but once you overcome that fear, I think I have a lot of joy, because even before I become full time artists, I always try to paint in the evenings and during the weekend. I never had enough time to do whatever I want to do. Now I realized that from Monday till Sunday, every single day is my painting day. So that's, you know, huge joy for me, and I just I went crazy. My husband say, why you're not drinking or eating? It's like I have no time I just need to paint in. Is So, so joyful. So to me, it's, you know, my dream come, come to the reality and become what I really want to be, since I was a 16 so that was really lovely. But when you get into the professional world, gradually, you realize that it's not just a painting. I can't explain to my other friends or who are not artists, and they say, Oh, you stand there, you paint and look so relaxing. It's like, it's not, you know, we have that deadlines, we have a paperwork or have, you know, the accounting part, we have tax to pay. All these things that's related to the single person who tried to be full time artist as a business. So there are other side of this you always wanted to also take it seriously, not like, you know, just painting, because if you just paint, you cannot become full time artists. You have to do the other side of like, not so fun work to to make this part as a successful career. So, so that would, you know, I think that I realized people saying you need to spend, you know, almost 40% of the time, you know, to do the other work. Sometimes I think I could squeeze to, like, 30% but still needed to do the other part if you really wanted to be a full time and a serious artist, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 24:44

exactly, and that actually ties in perfectly with my next question, which is, what are some of the tools that you personally use that are marketing tools that have helped you, you know, sell your work and get students and, you know, get. More basically do that 40% of the other part of the business of art.

Shuang Li: 25:06

Oh yeah, I just love FASO. I have to say, before, you know, before, I think it's before 2011 I used different websites, which it was privileged, because I thought, Gee, I came from IT world. I can do this. So I just use the other website. I just realized that, you know, it didn't have a half of the things I needed, every pieces I needed to go spend a time to, you know, search and, you know, redo it, hide it. So once I switch to FASO, you know, the website, the newsletter, social media, connections, and also the E commerce, you know, all these tools is right there as one. So that's, you know, that's perfect for artists who wanted to take the your art world, you know, artwork, into the business world. So and I used, I think the most is a one is a website, and the two is a newsletter. And newsletter helped me tremendously. I would say, I'm not very good at going outside and, you know, a horn myself says, Hey, come to see my painting. You know, I'm not that type of person, and I'm too busy. I need I teach workshops and demos and, you know, travel many things. So newsletter gave me the great opportunity to reach to people who I don't have in my workshop, and they can not only see but keep a connection and see all my events coming up. So I use newsletter a lot, and for people who don't really utilize this too, you probably don't know, you know, FASO provided the back end for the pro artists to look at your data as a newsletter wanted sends out. You know, you can see how many people opened. Of course, there are people, you know, unsubscribe, but it's very few, like my cases, is very few, and how many people open it and where they collect all these data helped me to understand what I should be putting into the newsletter and to keep my audience. And you know, of course, and sometimes I do my marketing, let's say, two years ago, I had a new book come out. Of course, I did the marketing everywhere, but mainly those, you know, the my subscribers are my main marketing target, so I just sent out the links to them, and the response was, like, enormous. So that was, you know, the, I think that, you know, people just didn't realize, you know, people say, Oh, I hate writing. Yeah, I hate writing too. You know, English is even not my native language. But you know, right? You don't need to write a lot. You only need to write something that's interesting and it connects to your author. And usually I show people what I did at the past months and what a show was in in the future. And that's it, short and sweet newsletter, it helped me to have a lot of responses. Yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 28:39

yeah, I think for sure, newsletter is the unsung hero for a lot of artists who, you know, I've met so many artists, and very few of them actually mention newsletters. They'll maybe mention social media. But I think newsletters, for sure, are a much more steady way of, first of all, connecting with people who really love your work, because they took that extra step right to sign up for your newsletter, which means they already love your work, they already care and they want to be there. So I think for sure, building that newsletter list is really important. Of course, you can start it with social media or with exhibitions or shows. But yeah, I totally agree, and it doesn't have to be long. I love that you mentioned that. I think it can be intimidating for people to think that they have to write an essay like they did at school, instead of could just be a short paragraph. It doesn't have to be anything crazy. So that really makes it a little bit more manageable for people who maybe are a little more shy about writing or don't like writing, and of course, that's part of that, like we said, the 40% of the little things that really help with marketing. And I agree, having a professional website where people can see your work, and it's all in there where you can also. Sell your work. That's also really important. And I agree. FASO definitely helps with that, because in my experience, it's probably the fastest website you could put together compared to other other websites, because they already have everything. So yeah, I totally agree. And then in terms of, you know, painting societies or joining shows and stuff. Do you think that you know, even if you're early in your career as an artist, is it worth it for them to also apply for shows and all of these painting societies?

Shuang Li: 30:38

I would say yes and no, it depends. Okay, so my suggestion is from my own experience, and I also, the time I got brought up a device from the pros. That's ahead of me. Well, I think you know, I would recommend people who you just, if you just get started, start from local, and that's your roots, okay, I live in San Diego County, so the first organization when I moved to here in 2003 so I joined the local watercolor society in 2004 and it till today. So that's your base. And because those kind of society usually provide member shows that's a little bit of lower level, so it's easy to get in. Then you can gain the confidence from there. And if you wanted to teach, or if you wanted to be a serious, you know, full time or half time, but you wanted to be serious, then you can first get the signature, signature member level from those local art organizations. And some people got too ambitious, and they start applying the national one. You have to understand that the national level of art. Organizations open to the world. The United States, you know, like, I paint a lot of water colors. So the water color National Water Color society, American Water Color society, is one on the West Coast, one the East Coast. They both open to the entire world. So you are competing with the best artists from everywhere in the globe. So in that case, you have to ask yourself, you know, I am I at that level, or I'm just throwing my money away? Just, you know, try to be part of that. So I would say, Start local, and you will gain the confidence, and you will meet other artists, and then you will make a connections, and then then you will improve as well. Then at some point, when you feel you are, you know you're improving your work a lot. Then, of course, connected with the National masters. That's a great way to go. So, you know, you can make an oil painter. So you there's oil painters of America, there's impressionism society, and there they are also named the local, but more national, like California art club I belong to. These are much higher, and a lot of times they need a pre qualification. Let's say that California art club, if you want to apply the artist membership, I remember I prepared like a seven pages long, writing stuff and a lot of art to work. And then they review, then you can get it so, so one step at a time, and I think that will that not only much more practical, but also help you to gain the confidence in the art world.

Laura Arango Baier: 33:57

At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free@boldbrushshow.com that's BOLDBRUSH show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it's crucial to have a website when you're an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that's basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get. Sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won't get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast. That's FASO.com/podcast, definitely, and that ties into also what you mentioned earlier about having that patience about, you know, both in your craft and then also in the, you know, building the career aspect, which it does take long. I mean, when I was in in art school, my one of my instructors said it'll take about 10 years for that career to really start showing. And at the time, I was like, ah, but now I'm like, Yeah, that makes sense. I think it would even take longer for some people, because it takes, it takes the time that it takes. Yeah, there's no way. Yeah, there's no way to skip steps. Like you said, you can't just apply for the big shot if you haven't really built up your work, if you haven't built up your voice, I think it can be very tempting to want to, you know, shoot for the stars, and there's no problem with that, but there's also if you're not ready for maybe the disappointment of the rejection. Because, you know, we face a lot of rejection as artists, especially, you know, from galleries, from shows, from from a lot of things, it might be very painful to get rejected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you say that, you know, with the painting societies and organizations that you've worked with, have you found that you also have found collectors that way? Or have you maybe worked with galleries like, what have been some of the ways that you've been able to get some collectors for your work?

Shuang Li: 37:11

So the collectors, I think they, came from multiple sources. There are a lot of collectors were my students. So I have to say that. So they they attend my workshop, and then they saw my demo pieces. None of they wanted to collect one or two. So they, when they go home, not the only they can hand on the wall. They can't remember what they learned in, you know, from the workshop. So that's a part. One the you know, student collectors, they usually love art. That's why they come to workshop and such. The other collectors, I think, is from galleries. People still visit the galleries, believe it or not, you know, even the social media is, you know, out there, people still Visit galleries. So in one, I have a paintings in the show, lot of those pieces got sold, you know, through the show at the gallery, different locations, you know, from New York to California to Seattle to who knows where. So that that's the another reason you wanted to get into the show is sometimes you find that the collectors come and they will later come after you. They will when they bought your painting, they look, I usually put a business card in the back of painting. Then they would come back to the website, and then they will sign up for the newsletter, and then they will become your, you know, almost like a permanent collector in the future. So that's how, you know, a collector circle can start that way. The other ones would be more other like a higher level event, there are serious collectors than they go to, let's say the paninaira competitions or some art festivals, and they knew who they wanted to collect. Those are more sophisticated collectors. Those are like, you know, the higher level then once you work your career, grand, rapid progress, and you will meet those collectors. But they are very selective, so you have to be really good, and they will follow you as well. So I would say that's pretty much, you know, the my main sources. Yeah, I do sell certain things through social media, but I don't trust social media that much. You know, a lot of fake one. Is on Facebook, and you know, don't. Don't just say, you know any anybody say they wanted to buy a piece from you. Don't. Don't trust them too much. If it's a serious collector, they know how to find you. They know they will go through the proper route to connect you and to get the piece.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:24

Yeah, that's the biggest risk. Is the scams online. But, yeah, I think it's great. Yeah, way too many skin Yeah, it's, it's really, it can be frustrating because, you know, I think it's scary when you're an early stage artists, where it's early in your career, and you get one of those messages and maybe fall for, I think that's that's really bad, but yeah, going through the proper channels, right? If someone really wants to collect your work, they will go to your website, right? Or they'll contact the gallery, and they'll, you know, find a way to get your work in a legitimate way. Because I think a serious collector would also be afraid of getting scammed back, you know, like they would be afraid of like, oh, I want to buy this piece. But is this person real? Is the work real? So they would also be worried about that, yeah, yes. And then I'm actually really curious to know before you made the jump into becoming a full time artist, were you already working with galleries, or did you start working with them after you made the jump?

Shuang Li: 41:31

I think it's after. Yeah. I, I think you know, here is the any galleries, you know, if you go through certain society to go to the national shows and etc, you have to be at the society's bar at least. Then you can go into certain galleries. Then afterwards, the galleries are very selective. The galleries usually they would say they wanted to see you are consistent. You have a body of work at the same level most of the time. Yeah, sometimes we're paying we open the bad paint piece. But the galleries wanted to see you are consistent. So you they don't want to to see your piece. Okay, this month, you gave them one piece, and looks fantastic. And next month, and then you, you know, pull in three pieces, and none of those are good, so they don't want that, and they don't know how to promote you for that. Also, these days, the galleries are hardly promote any one single artist. So you are competing with the other artists on the same wall. They the gallery owners want all the pieces in his or her gallery looks at the same level. That's why, you know, some people say, Oh, it's hard to get in when they don't want me, yeah, because they have so many artists to select, and they wanted a certain professional look in their gallery. They don't want people think they they're, you know, very expensive locations are setting like a garage sale pieces. So they wanted to keep their reputation as well. And then that's how I understand that, you know, they select your piece. So I actually didn't get into certain galleries until quite late, you know. And that's another thing you wanted to be patient with, you know, with yourself, if you keep going into the national level shows that means that you are properly ready. But before that the locals, sometimes they sell, you know, this small pieces for the tourists and as such, yeah, that's workable. But the key for me at least is keep working at yourself and make it yourself, you know, to the certain bar none that it's a time you know, you can consider to set a good get, you know, any galleries that's nearby, or at your preference, at the certain locations,

Laura Arango Baier: 44:19

yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was, yeah. You know, it's good to, like you said, Remember that when you're looking at a gallery, it's good to look at the artists. They already have to see the level of the work, like you mentioned, because, of course, the gallery is trying to sell, right? That's how they live. That's how they survive, which is why they have an expectation of an artist's work. That comparison was so funny that you mentioned garage sale artwork. It's very true. You can't really I mean, there might be a gallery out there who likes that type of work, but maybe not in the fine art like. Plein air landscape. You know, studio work type of world. I'm sure there's someone out there, but definitely not, you know, some of the galleries that we pursue as realist Fine Art painters. But yeah, so that makes me also curious. Before you made the jump, I'm assuming you were painting on the side, right, you were painting some of your personal work, maybe. Or did you, oh, and also, were you also trying to join exhibitions, or were you just work and hobby painting, and then, like, how was that like for you? Were you still painting before you became a fine artist? Like, full time? Yeah,

Shuang Li: 45:46

so before full time, so that's the transition. I think the people need kind of to understand. You cannot just say, Okay, I quit my day job, then the next day I become full time artist. I actually prepared that for more than 10 years, believe or not. So that means in the 90s, I actually I already was painting, taking workshops and following all these societies, but I didn't really join. I joined some at the time I was in the Northern California, I joined some locals. I entered some pieces at the local member shows. That's why, the very beginning, I mentioned that if you wanted to to be serious, Join your local societies first. Most of local art societies, they they are member based, so they usually will have more than one show per year. When you come to the national ones, we sometimes, we call them the show only societies, so they only do one or two shows per year. That's it. And then, and it's hard to reach. How can you reach, you know, someone in New York, if you're in California, so it's difficult. So I actually, when I moved to California at that time, I mainly, you know, I, I was focusing on painting the watercolors. So I joined the multiple local water cutter societies. Even I was working every month I would be sending my piece, because it's local. You can drive there and you know their schedule, and then I just drop off my painting to get into the member shows. So those helped great race. Before I even quit my day job. I was already teaching, so they already invited me to teach. I forgot whether I got a signature member beforehand. Polly, yeah, so that was because I kept painting, kept entering, and a couple getting awards from the member show, and I realizing maybe it's a good time. I can apply, you know, signature member, and then they require the international level show for three times. And you can, you know, get the signature member. Then I start teaching. Then, then after that, for couple of years, none. I finally quit my job. I felt I was ready. So you have to, well, you don't really have to, but if you're financially able, you can just quit, right? But I think for art career wise, you need to prepare. You need to prepare that and seeing your progress and asking yourself, do I still wanted to do this for another 10 years or 20 years, or in my life, you needed to have that passion, you know, to support you as well, not only the money, because a lot of I saw some students, they start when they retire, whatever They had this huge urge to learn and paint. So they were very working very hard. Then the pretty soon they kind of like lost their opinion. Oh, it's so difficult I'm not making enough progress. Then they kind of stop. So in that case, you just cannot jump into the pro world, because you don't have enough passion to go through, to help you to go through the difficult, you know, growth period. So that will be my opinion. I would say you need a passion, yeah, and then you need to work on yourself, be patient and yeah, get into the shows from the lower level to higher level.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:44

Yes, yes. And again, it's the most practical, steady approach, because from what you described, it seemed like it wasn't very difficult for you to you know, having already built. This right, this local community with your work. And having done this, it's a little less scary to quit that day job and continue with the work, because you have this continuous stream next to another one, and then you just jump into it, right, versus just jumping out and then not knowing where you're going to land. So I think that that's a very wise way of doing it. I know I've also heard of some artists who try to go for galleries while they're, you know, working their day job. And I think that might be a bit challenging as well. I think the way that you decided to go about it was probably the most effective at that keeping that steady pace and consistency. Like you said, I think it's so important too to be consistent. And yeah, sometimes having a day job can make that difficult because of the time management aspect. So that's yeah, very wise. And then do you have any final piece of advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?

Shuang Li: 51:09

I think it's like any career you know, the artist job or the artist as a career these days is kind of crossroad, I would say, if you wanted to jump into it, there are some some aspect that you know, we needed to understand when I started, because I was Already in IT industry. So when I started, the social media is there, but it's not that hot, okay? And the social media now, 20 years into, almost changed everybody's life and changed the way we show our artwork to the world, right? So we so when you, if you wanted to jump into the pro world, you wanted to consider that the other not very please, very please, not very present side of the fine art is you have to understand that this is not a necessity, necessity in people's life. That's why people say they wanted to buy a diamond ring put on their finger, but they don't want to spend a couple of $100 buy a painting, because this is not a necessity, and it's hard to show off. They can show off and say, I have a diamond ring, but you cannot show up and say, I have a piece of a painting unless you have, you know, like a Picasso or something. So we, you know, when you jump into the pro world, you have to understand now these days, AI is showing and AI can paint whatever people want. It. No, I never like any, at least so far. So these changes make the art as expensive and very selective. So when you decided the transition, I would say the money will come, but don't put your money as your money request, as the first thing on your list. Just ask yourself, Do I love this? How much love I can put in, okay, and with this much love, how much effort I wanted to put in, what if I don't make a penny? And if you can answer all these questions, there's no right or wrong answers. But if you can answer all these questions, was your own answer, and then you're determined none go for it and keep working on yourself. And you know, persistent will always pay off in the end.

Laura Arango Baier: 54:08

Yes, oh, I love that. That is is so true, and it is very challenging career path, right? As you might know, it is something that will test you again and again and again in usually the same way. I've heard artists tell me that it's basically how like they have gone through their entire career. They have faced the exact same issue over and over, but obviously they have more strength to face it, because they still have that passion for their work, like the doubts that they may have about their work never really goes away. They just get better at managing the doubt and overcoming it, but it never like it's always there. So it is very important, like you said, to really question yourself. About what it would mean for you for the rest of your life, yeah, to pursue such a challenging path. Yes, yeah, yes, yes, awesome. Well, do you have any upcoming shows or exhibitions or anything that's coming up that you would like to

Shuang Li: 55:22

promote? Um, for this year. I decided that, because I'm adding the oil, the water mix for oil into my studio shelf design, I decided this year is going to be my pretty much off year to work on more different pieces, but I do have a group show that's coming up in May. It's what is it called? It's a it's the five artists that are both or local, and we paint local scenes, and we put a group show just called a nearby home or something like that. You know, it's just everything is surrounded as I wanted the we wanted the locals to see the beauty of what the local artists can present. So that's also related to the topic we talk about, it is, you know that you know you wanted to connect with local in you know that it's a great way to do it. I am working on a book, but the book is, seems like it's still so far away, but this is the book. I got lot of the this is sort of a new book. Then I got a lot of requests I have to put into the comments, into Facebook. A lot is many oil painters, especially like, you know, the age, like around retirement time, and they say, I want to travel. I also wanted to paint, but it's hard to carry, you know, the oils and then everything, and it's so heavy. So then I said, switch to water color. And then they say, I don't know how to paint water colors in the outdoors. So two years ago, I put together this is a very detailed book. It's on my website too, so you can have a go to my website, and you can see the link there, and then it covers every single thing. Then you can just have one bag and in your luggage, and you don't even need to carry the tube of paint if you, you know, travel for one week or 10 days, you know. So everything is here. What do you need? From the equipment, you know, the most basics, to the most advanced? So I would say I still recommend. The reason I have this book is because there's, there was no such book telling people, you know, how you can do it. So this would one another love to get help more artists to do this use water color. You can do it. You know, a water color and the oil results in 90% of the time, they are the same. There are 10% that the difference, and you can work up.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:21

So cool. Yeah. I think if I was going to attempt plein air watercolor, and I, like I was mentioning way earlier, that it's, you know, it's so much easier to carry it around than oils, like you said. And then, if you're traveling, like, you need to buy the turpentine, or you need to buy, you know, the mineral spirits, or linseed oil, and it's all very not just heavy stuff, but also kind of dangerous stuff to be carrying around, because it's flammable and all of these things. It is nice to know that with watercolor, there's a bit more of a an ease of mobility, especially if you can fit all in a tiny little box, which I've seen people do, yeah,

Shuang Li: 59:00

so cool. You can use a tiny box, or you can use, like a regular palette, like I use, and then you can everything. You can just pack in your luggage and you you'll be ready to go, you know. So you know, when I travel, this is how I do it, my regular palette. Yeah, I'll show you in a second. I actually pack everything in there. Of course, in my book, you know, I described everything already, right? So you can check on details. It's my regular pattern, and I squeezing all my paints. It's dirty now, squeezing all my paints and added a dry little bit, and putting the plastic bag. It's not going to run people. So people say, Oh, I'm a color. It's going to come out and, you know, my clothes, no, no, it's not going if you let it dry a little bit, you know, use a hair dryer or, just like, naturally dry little bit. That's all you can you need to carry. I use this palette, the full. A well of pens to paint for seven to 10 days. Wow, yeah, for everyday old, paint two to six pieces. That's how easy it is. And then I don't carry my oils with me, you know. I'm too old to carry the whole bag and with all the tubes and just too much. So that's it, you know. And I would highly recommend watercolor. People say watercolor is difficult, yeah, if you paint well in watercolor, you go back to oil, your oil will be a lot easier. I promise you

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:36

That's it. Will be worth trying water color, yes, yeah.

Shuang Li: 1:00:41

But remember, lower the expectations when you start learning something. That's what I said, Yeah, you'll get

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:47

there, yeah, yeah. Get that passion to keep going, to push through all of the doubt and the pain,

Unknown: 1:00:56

yes, yeah. Oh man. Well,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:58

thank you so much. Wrong. Um, do you mind telling us where people find can find more of your work?

Shuang Li: 1:01:05

Ah, yeah. Well, lot of works are in the national level. Shows it depends on, you know, if I try hard enough to get in, right? Yeah, but I usually go to different shows, about 10 national or international level shows per year, and that's the probably major source to find me, of course. You know, on my website, I'll keep posting new work social media sometimes, and I also, I'm, I'm a signature member of Laguna plain layer Association. And almost every month, you find some of my work over there, and it's, it's a great organization, and had a lot of fun with them. And of course, if you come to California, you know, visit our local watercolor societies all have work over there too. Yeah, right now I don't have any galleries. That's the other part I didn't talk about is the galleries these time, these days, go off a business quickly. Yeah, a lot of galleries have a hard time because artists have the source to go to sell our own workers through Faso and, you know, other prices. So if you are have hard time finding the galleries use Faso to sell your work, yeah, so that will and to display to sell your work at this one place and under your own control. That's also great. Yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:56

absolutely. Well, awesome, and I'm guessing people can also sign up for a newsletter. Since you did mention you're working on another book, hopefully you will have that sometime within the next couple years, so we can see your amazing book. Because I just from looking at the first one, I'm already like, Oh, I know what resource I would totally get if and when I start water color, yeah,

Shuang Li: 1:03:22

yeah, so yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me, and it's really fun chat with you.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:31

Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.