Show Notes:
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For today's episode, we sat down with Thomas Schaller, an architect turned successful watercolor artist and teacher. He discusses his journey to becoming a full-time artist, merging his love between architecture and fine art, and reminds us of the importance of prioritizing personal artistic expression over technical mastery. He shares how teaching has helped him clarify his own artistic voice and the joy he finds in painting as a daily practice. Schaller emphasizes the value of trusting one's inner artistic vision over external advice, and the need to make art a central part of one's life. He also touches on the challenges and rewards of selling artwork, and offers advice for aspiring artists to focus on their intentions and be true to themselves. Finally, Thomas tells us about his books and his upcoming workshops!
Tom's FASO site:
https://www.thomaswschaller.com/
Tom's Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/thomaswschaller/
Tom's Books:
https://www.thomaswschaller.com/books
Tom's Mentorship and upcoming workshops:
https://terracotta.art/schaller/thomas-w-schaller-fine-art-mentorship
https://www.thomaswschaller.com/workshops
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Transcript:
Thomas Schaller: 0:00
Prioritize if painting, if you want it to be a priority, make it a priority. Do it every day. Just carve out a space in your life that belongs to you and say this is mine.
Laura Arango Baier: 0:17
Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who earn careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today's episode, we sat down with Thomas Schaller, an architect turned successful watercolor artist and teacher. He discusses his journey to becoming a full time artist, merging his love between architecture and fine art, and reminds us of the importance of prioritizing personal artistic expression over technical mastery. He shares how teaching has helped him clarify his own artistic voice and the joy he finds in painting as a daily practice. Schaller emphasizes the value of trusting one's inner artistic vision over external advice and the need to make art a central part of one's life. He also touches on the challenges and rewards of selling artwork and offers advice for aspiring artists to focus on their intentions and be true to themselves. Finally, Thomas tells us about his books and his upcoming workshops. Welcome Thomas to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? I'm doing very well, Laura. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And just before we jump in, I want to thank BoldBrush and also Faso in general, for all the work you do,
Thomas Schaller: 1:41
not just for me, but on behalf of all of us, artists promoting us. I think it's because you come at it from the standpoint of being artists yourself, so you get it and it helps, but it's also just very much appreciated. So thanks. Thanks for having me, yes,
Laura Arango Baier: 1:59
and very happy to have you, of course, very happy to have you. And of course, the Faso team, they're so hard working, like you said, and they're so understanding because of that, because of how you mentioned that they're also artists, most of them. So it's wonderful to hear that you're very happy with it is, you know, I'm also very happy with it because I use it, yeah, and I'm so excited to have you on because and also grateful because I know you have quite a busy schedule you're teaching, and I wish I was one of your students, honestly, because you are just so rife with amazing observations, and I was watching some of your YouTube videos as well. You are I don't want to say talented, because I don't really believe in talent. I believe that you are someone who has worked so so hard on top of talent that you may have had, and I can see that, and I appreciate it.
Thomas Schaller: 2:51
That means a lot. I mean, I don't want to get up on a cul de sac, but that word talent is a very charged order for me too. I don't I'm not offended when people use it, of course, because I know I mean it well, but yeah, yeah, a lot of talent is really just a catch all phrase for a lot of work. So thank you for recognizing me. Of course,
Laura Arango Baier: 3:15
you're welcome, and of course I was mentioning this earlier. I love your work. Your work is breathtaking. It is atmospheric. It is eye candy. I don't know how else to describe it. It makes me want to stare at it for hours.
Thomas Schaller: 3:33
I couldn't hear anything better. Yeah, I'm asked a lot what what I like to get from my work, and honestly, if it moves somebody or affects somebody and means something to it's the connection human to human that I actually think is why I wanted to be a painter in the first place, but I didn't know it until years later. But yeah, that's silent. The silent language of art is is hard to beat, but also, I think, indispensable for all of us, for life in general, definitely,
Laura Arango Baier: 4:10
definitely, I completely agree. But before we dive into how you became an artist and your your trajectory, which is very interesting from what I've seen. Do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?
Thomas Schaller: 4:26
Oh, sure, yeah, basics. My name is Tom I'm an artist. Sounds like I'm at a meeting when I was around seven years old, I grew up in rural Ohio on a farm my parents hated anything related to city life, or my father in particular, he didn't trust artists, scientists, or I don't want to paint an unflattering picture. Him, but he was a very fixed ideas about how one should live and one should not live. So when I announced to my parents, I think I had a seven that I wanted to grow up, move to New York City and become an artist, I may as well have said I wanted to move to the moon, because they they couldn't wrap their minds around why and then how, how I would do that. So, so I, yeah, I wanted to be an artist. I had just a fascination with paintings. Thank God for my grandmother, who used to secretly feed me art books. But if I'm honest, I love the paintings, but I was really more interested in the people that were artists, and how did they get to be that way, and how did they live? And one of the books she gave me was all about paintings in the Metropolitan Museum here in New York City. So I became fixated on New York from a very early age, and I couldn't think of anywhere else I could live. And I was fascinated with the lives of artists. How did they do that? And really, that defines me. I've spent all of my years, some decades of it, trying to figure out, how do you live your life as an artist, and what does that mean? Yeah, so I've had a lot of twists and turns, but I think it was the right question to ask, even at that young age, and the answers aren't the same for everybody, but yeah, asking them is important. So anyway, here I am. I do live in New York. I am a full time artist. I don't do anything else. I am also an architect, but I don't I no longer work as an architect or make money or have any clients in that field. There's a connection, but I didn't see that either earlier on. So, yeah, it took me a while to get here, but, but here I am, yes, yeah. And
Laura Arango Baier: 7:07
it's interesting, because I think I read in a in another interview, how at one point you thought you could only do one of your two lefts, which was architecture or painting. How did that go down? How did that path go for you?
Thomas Schaller: 7:22
That's true. I'm a little embarrassed. I mean, it seems a little obvious to me now, but it didn't for most of my life, I had what I considered two interests, fine art and the world of architecture and I they were on two completely separate tracks. In my mind. I didn't understand that I could figure out ways to merge them. I also didn't figure out that I should I think. I don't want to lecture anyone, but just for myself, I think if we hear these voices in our head telling us this is something we like. We need to be drawn toward that direction. We owe it to ourselves to find out why. What is that, and how do you do that? So I was never willing to cut off one track or the other, but spent many years trying to figure out, how can I merge them, or should I even earlier on in both architecture school and art school, I thought I shouldn't merge them. I thought they were so very different. I think briefly, I felt architecture was more of a rational, real world pursuit and fine art was a more emotional exercise, maybe selfish, maybe frivolous. I think those were words from my father in the back of my head, still speaking. But I think part of me thought that too, and also, I think there was a voice telling me I wouldn't be good enough, or I couldn't compete, or there was no there was no path for me in fine arts. Also not true, but that's what I worried so, yeah, it sort of set up the kind of artwork I do. Now, there was this dichotomy inside myself where the real world rational thinking side of my brain thought I should go into architecture and make a career and call it a life, but the so called irrational side of me thought, no, no, you should. You should be a wacky, messy artist and see what you can do with that. The truth is, both of those sides have merit in me, at least, and both needed to be heard, and both needed to figure out a way to live together comfortably. Finally. They're doing that,
Laura Arango Baier: 10:02
yes, yeah. And I think actually, now that you mention it, your work definitely expresses it in the sense of contrasts, right? Because you have this beautiful play of edges and beautiful play of softness in your work that I think also could represent that rational and versus abstract sort of dichotomy that you have
Thomas Schaller: 10:23
that's so insightful. I you know, I'm not a psychologist, but I'm very interested in that sort of thing. Yes, it's true. All of us, I'm sure, have two sides of us. I talk about in my classes and in my writing, a lot that my work is based on the idea of contrast, meaning not just light versus dark. That's one example, but two conflicting ideas meeting on the surface of the canvas or a paper to find a resolution, sometimes to not find a resolution. That might be the story of the painting, the actual friction itself also why I think I was drawn to watercolor, which is my medium of choice. Though I've studied all of them, I think I'm just profoundly in love with the way watercolor can speak in a whisper or or shout, it can be very bold, or it can be incredibly subtle, even within the same painting. So that's sort of another level of technical contrast that can be a kind of Avatar for emotional conflict that you might be working through.
Laura Arango Baier: 11:40
Yes, definitely.
Thomas Schaller: 11:42
My paintings are all a psychology exam.
Laura Arango Baier: 11:47
Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's, I think, for most people who dive into painting, most, I mean, anyone's paintings are, you know, that visual representation of their inner world, right? Which, I mean, if we dive into that, wow,
Thomas Schaller: 12:04
it is true. And I again, took me many years to figure that out. I thought painting was just something I enjoyed. It was a thing I did. I didn't realize until I got much deeper into it, that it was a genuine, authentic reflection of who I am, not just what I do, or not just a hobby or even a career, but a real reflection of who I am. And I know that's not singular to me alone. I believe all all people in the arts, all people do that, I think what you choose to do with your time on this earth reflects something about you as a human being. I think that's just a fact. I think a lot of that, how do we spend our time? I think is the fundamental question, because all we're given in this one short life is a little bit of time, and what you do with that, it's pretty important. Doesn't mean it can't be joyous and fun, and doesn't mean you can't take a break from it, I suppose, now and then. But yeah, I think for me, it is the fundamental question. So how do you feel your days?
Laura Arango Baier: 13:24
Yes, yeah, and you're you're right. I mean, we have limited time, and it's where we put our attention that really can make your life either very, very wonderful or very painful. And I think most of us as artists, we seek out painting almost as a refuge, because it brings us joy, and it brings us all of these things. Obviously, we all paint for different reasons, but in the end, you know, it is that joy, I think, I
Thomas Schaller: 13:53
think it is, I think I've thought probably too much about that, the joy of painting for me, it is what I was just talking about. How do I it's a it's a practice. For me, a like doing yoga. It's a thing you do to to help it helps me. Ever since I was little, why I wanted to be an artist as a kid was because whenever I was upset, anxious or excited and thrilled or felt like I couldn't control my emotional state, painting and drawing is what I did to sort of throw a net of order over all the chaos I felt inside so and I still do that. It's it's the way, it's my avatar, the way I look at or experience the world is through my paintings. I try to explain the world to myself by by my experiences of it and those representations in painting and I. I can't speak for anyone else, but I think we all do that, and not just painters, but all of us. There's so many ways to be an artist, obviously, writers and poets and musicians and dancers, but I think farmers, gardeners, or even being a good parent or being a good friend, being a good citizen. If you analyze how you spend your time and try to use it in a creative way, that's a kind of art. Painting is just one manifestation of that. But I don't remember the writer, but in Zen, writer once wrote, well, I think many of them wrote it. It's an adage, but if you're tending a garden, only the flowers that you water are going to grow. So I has that has stuck with me since a child that thought that where you put your attention, where you put your time, your love, your creativity, that's what's going to flourish in your life. So if you waste your time being angry or, I mean, we all are human but, but those are the flowers I try not to water too much. Those are the comparison and anger. And I'm not immune to any of those feelings, but, but I am aware too that the less time I spend on those, the better off I'm going to be
Laura Arango Baier: 16:36
very beautifully. Said, Yes, I love that. I love that. And you bring up a very good point, you know, about all of the creative acts being manifestations of, you know the basically, what I think is like the self portraits, right? Everything that we put into our energy into becomes a self portrait. So every painting is basically a self portrait. And actually that reminded me of something really interesting you said about a description of your work, which is experiential, not observational. And I think it can go even deeper, because it's not just the experience of of the place that you're in, right? You're not You're observing it. You're also trying to, like, put the experience into the canvas, but I think also it's experiential in the sense of your whole experience of life.
Thomas Schaller: 17:28
Yeah, I think what you just said, I'm going to steal that was beautiful all of our paintings, however, we paint abstractly, figuratively, photorealistically, they're all self portraits, in a way they have to be. They reflect who we are. Yes, I say this a lot in my classes, because I think it's true. But if you pick 10 artists of similar skill level, ask them to paint the exact same subject, you get 10 wildly different results, because though we all look at the same things, we don't always experience the exact same things or in the same order that people we know and love or total strangers May. So we have no choice but to paint what we experience, how we experience the world. It's a reflection. So again, teaching, we'll probably talk more about that later, but it's been such an unexpected blessing for me. But in teaching, I see a lot of students struggling with thinking their paintings can only get better if they were a more accurate depiction of what it is they're looking at. So if you're doing a painting of a tree and it looks absolutely like that tree, they feel that they've done a better job. And I have to disagree with them and say, not necessarily, you could you could plant another tree, or you could choose to not paint that tree, or you could change all the color or the shapes, or you could move it all, depending on your experiences of that tree. So when I say that, I think I came from a very rational, ordered world architecture that that evolved into my spending years, which I don't regret, of being a commercial architectural illustrator, I learned a lot of things in those years, at least, how to run a business, more or less how to talk to people a little bit. I think as artists, we we spend a lot of time alone, and we're not necessarily very versed in just speaking to other people, how to get an idea across. But. But the downside of all those years was I was so object oriented. I painted paintings of things more or less, and fell into a pretty deep depression years into it, thinking, This is it for me. I'm never going to get out of this box I built for myself. Not true. But what helped me get out of that box was realizing my interest in architecture was really not the building so much. I mean, they were there as a part of the alphabet soup the recipe. But the real interest in architecture for me comes in the people that live there or work there or worship there or use it or see it or interact with it every day, that the human experience of architecture as part of our context, the built world as part of our context of living life and just realizing that liberated me to be able to make a lot of healthier decisions about how I wanted to spend my time, how I wanted to paint, what I was interested in, and how I wanted to how I wanted those paintings To reflect as best I could who I am. Yes, I think experiences are what paintings are. For me, the paintings I love the most obviously make me feel something that's an authentic feeling. It could be good, it could be terrible, but it's authentic, and that's what I strive to do in in my work as best I can, and
Laura Arango Baier: 21:44
I think you're succeeding, of course, because I had a very immediate reaction to seeing your work of absolute Wow, that's gorgeous. Gorgeous. It captures, yeah, of course. And it captures something I think, you know, because I thought about studying architecture when I was a young Ling in high school, and I considered it, but I also sort of realized that it isn't necessarily the buildings themselves. It's also the way the light just hits the architecture, and the way that, you know, a building can change so much if it's facing in a completely different direction, you know, if the sun is hitting it in a particular way that always wow, you know, the atmosphere of a room, that's what I loved more than the actual design, I guess, also
Thomas Schaller: 22:34
so well said, Yeah, I mean a building, a house, for example, you can think of it just as an object, but you can also think about as an object in space. So the space takes on meaning as much as the object, the positive and the negative shapes. Also any building, for the most part, is a container, a container of spaces rooms, for example, in a house, they're negative spaces, but they're defined really not by the architecture so much as by the stories on the lives of the people that that lived there, that passed through so, I mean, it's, it's a little weedy, but I mean it with all sincerity, it's trying to paint that about an architectural subject, the space, the negative atmosphere, as another subject in the painting, as much as the particulars about a staircase or a window or a door or whatever, is always on my mind. So it's that contrast to the thing and the not thing, the native and the positive.
Laura Arango Baier: 23:57
Yeah, very zen.
Thomas Schaller: 24:00
Oh, sort of i this will sound horribly pretentious, but I I have a favorite poet, Paula Stevens, who's written, who wrote a lot of poetry about that, the thing and the opposite of that thing, or the thing and the nothing, which is what he wrote about. I was always fixated by his poetry years before I was even really able to understand it. But I do credit him with making me follow that line of thought, which has been very fruitful for me. So thank you, Wallace, yeah.
Laura Arango Baier: 24:35
I mean, thank you, you know by proxy, because I think that's a very beautiful explanation for for painting, because it kind of reminds me of how plena air painters, they talk about painting air in their paintings, it's very much that it's painting that capturing, that they say is, is probably one of the more challenging aspects of, you know, capturing a place.
Thomas Schaller: 25:00
I think it is, and again, to to make a watercolor specific part of what's so great and moving to me about the medium is the power of a good watercolor is often in what you don't paint. It's in the saved bits of paper or or the very lightly painted bits of the painting, allowing the light to shine through from the unpainted piece of paper. So, so editing painting less than you think you might need to is often a more powerful way to go. Definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I want
Laura Arango Baier: 25:38
to bring up something else you mentioned that. Oh, I'm so happy you said, which is that accuracy does not make something better, necessarily, in the, I want to say, in the more creative sense, right? Kind of like how you said about, oh, I made that tree exactly as it is. Like, well, yeah, I mean, it would work if you were in the Audubon Society and you wanted to capture something in a almost like a biological way, which is a form of art as well. But if you want to capture the essence of that tree, the essence of a space or an object of something more there, I mean, it goes beyond accuracy. And I love that you mentioned that. Well,
Thomas Schaller: 26:20
thank you. I want to not be on record as disparaging photo realistic, but I don't. I just saying there are other ways of looking at things. Obviously we, for many years, lived in the era of cameras, then digital art, and now AI, one thing that we can't replace, though, is the genuine human experience of our world. And so just for me, that's most exciting. How do I get there when you take off the training wheels, though, the technical training wheels of saying, oh, everything must be more accurate, more precise, more technical. And admit, if this is your path, no, not necessarily, what's really important are your experiences. And how do you see something? It obligates you as a painter to then say, well, how do I see something? What am I trying to say? Do I have anything to say? The answer is, yes, we all do. It's just finding it and that that's the great joy of being an artist, is trying to find your singular way of experiencing the world that you already have, but it's sometimes hard to locate,
Laura Arango Baier: 27:46
indeed, and that's a very inspiring thing to say, because it, I think it really highlights how most artists and anyone who's In a creative career, how we all have an obsession with digging deeper into the subject, because it feels like, you know, you can go to these schools, you can learn all of the tricks and the tips and the brushes and the which pigments to use and what, what everything right. But there's it's not enough. There's more. There's always more. It's endless.
Thomas Schaller: 28:25
Yeah, in my classes, I I urge my students, first and foremost, have an intention for your painting, identify it, even if you even if you're not 100% sure what that is, that's okay. But I think that's the starting point for me. It has to be, what's the idea of this painting? What are you driving at? Once you have even a rough idea, then I think you start to gravitate toward those techniques and materials that you need in that particular case to tell that specific story. When you start with trying to learn all the techniques and all the materials, I think it's the wrong way around. I think we we can allow all of that to sort of obscure what we're really trying to do, which is expose ourselves a little bit at least. And that's hard to do, whether you're a painter or or not. To try to be honest with how you you experience the world, can be a difficult thing to do, even if you don't have anything to hide or you're not ashamed of yourself, nor should you be, but, but, yeah, I think a lot of us get lost in that the morass of technique and accuracy, and we we can lose the threat.
Laura Arango Baier: 29:52
Definitely at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic. Art, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush. And if you believe that too, sign up completely free@boldbrushshow.com that's B, O, L, d, b, r, U, S, H show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by Faso. Now more than ever, it's crucial to have a website when you're an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, faso.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that's basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won't get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, faso.com/podcast. That's faso.com/podcast, definitely. And I mean, as you said earlier, there's nothing wrong with like hyper realism, for example, or photo realism, because some people really enjoy that, and it becomes, you know, its own art form. But you know, for the other types of realism and realistic painting, I completely agree with you that technique is such a double edged sword, it's great, but it can hamper so much, because I personally studied at academic schools, so I know what it's like to come out of a school, essentially painting like every other person who studied there with you, which there's nothing wrong with it. I think the hard part is kind of like how you said before that it's backwards. That's the hard part, because it's much harder for me and for, I want to say, for a lot of people that I've spoken to have gone to these schools, it's so hard to, I guess, undo that right? How do I keep technique without, I guess, without, you know, losing the accuracy or losing the something that I want to capture, and that can be so challenging, yeah,
Thomas Schaller: 32:44
that just inspired me. Way back in the Bose art days, students of architecture in particular would study these beautiful techniques of running perfect washes and watercolor or ink. Anyway, the whole goal of the Bozar was to teach students that there was a thing called objective beauty, meaning absolute standards of excellence and beauty that were completely reliant on your ability to master a series of techniques, so and if you did so, by the end of your course, every student would paint pretty much identically to every other student, because they'd all mastered these and oh, I'd be lying if I said I didn't love those techniques. I studied them all too. I did love them, but I fell under that, that that trap of thinking, Well, all I have to do is master ABC technique, then I'll be a great artist. No, that's you might be a good technician. But I guess what I'm trying to say to to myself and to students is technique is is there to help you? It's a tool. It's not a Bible, it's not the last word. It's a good starting point, but I'd see brilliant paintings that don't necessarily have flawless technique, but have brilliant ideas or an emotional impact that's that's impossible to describe in a in a four year course of anything, and that comes from within different kind of work.
Laura Arango Baier: 34:41
Yeah. I mean, I feel a little bit called out. But I think because, I mean, I did go to these schools thinking, Okay, well, you know, I'll just go to the school and I'll learn, you know, step one is learn. Step two is this. Step three, okay, I'm done, you know, like I can do whatever I want now, which I will not say that. Not true. I can basically paint confidently many subjects. But there's a big difference between, you know, painting whatever in a confident way versus trying to recreate something in how I want to express it. It's very different.
Thomas Schaller: 35:20
It is, and I I feel a little called out too, because that's I just described myself and the 2025, years of my life, something was missing for me, and I couldn't figure out what it was, and I realized that painting for me was a way of exploring myself and the world. And of this is an overused word, but of healing, healing yourself, I think, how you live your life, how you spend your time, as we were talking earlier, whether you're a painter or not, a lot of life, I think, can be looked at as a way of trying to to heal yourself, or make yourself feel okay about who you are, what you're doing and yeah. That's not necessarily everybody's thing, but for many of us, it, it can be, yeah, it's okay. So I'm an incredibly curious person. I i love analysis, self analysis, group analysis, painting is my way of doing all of that and and much more,
Laura Arango Baier: 36:43
yes, and I like how you, you, you posed it earlier. You said that it's, it's an exploration of, of how you see the world, right? It's, it's, I mean, it's beautiful, um, which actually, I wanted to tie this into a question that I have, which is, you mentioned that you reached that critical point of, I am not moving forward. I'm stuck. What was it like for you when you said, Okay, I'm gonna quit my job and I'm just gonna jump into painting full time. What was that like for you?
Thomas Schaller: 37:21
Well, I don't want to sound overly it was one of the hardest things I ever did, because it meant just to reflect a little on what I was just saying. Meant I was forced to be honest with myself that I I'm still not willing to say I made a mistake, but because if I make a mistake, I'm happy to admit it, but that that's too simplistic to say I made a mistake. I didn't I was doing what I felt I should at the time, but I was nowhere near living my full potential as a creative person, but sorry, but just as a person in general, I just wasn't I wasn't living an authentic life. That was a incredibly painful thing to have to admit. But also then thinking I don't know if I have what it takes to lead what I think isn't authentic. I had spent so many years pleasing clients, trying to make money, trying to make my way in the world, as we all have to. It was very diverting. It was satisfying on one level, but, but yeah, I felt empty. I felt fraudulent. I felt I'd let myself down. I had things to say, creative energy to give, and I didn't have any outlet for it, or know what to do. So what happened was, I took a watercolor workshop with the great Joseph ZBook Vick, arguably the best painter in watercolor living today, certainly at the top of the short list. He's in Australia, but he came to the US and I and a couple of friends went to study with him. What he didn't know was I wasn't there to learn how to paint like he does, because who could what I was there to do was to try to find that kid I used to be looking through those books, wondering what the life of an artist was all about. I wanted to meet somebody that was living the life of an artist just to see, just to see. So I did meet him. He's a difficult guy. He was, at least I. We're great friends. Now, I should say we really are. But I was talking with him after class one day, and he asked me what I did for a living, and he said, We don't seem very happy about it. Well, I'm not. I've really wanted to be a painter, but I just have no idea how to go about it at this stage of my life. I mean, I was in my 50s. At that point, I'd had a huge, pretty, huge career, written a few books, done all this stuff, and I was not done, but I felt defeated and finished. And he just looked at me and shook his head and said, Well, first thing, stop whining. Okay? And he said, then if you want to be a painter, here's the best advice I can give you, just paint and then all the rest will take care of itself. And he walked away dramatically. And I sat there very angry for a while, thinking that's easy for him to say, but now, some years later, I realized that wasn't easy for him to say. He had a very difficult path becoming the artist that he is, and he was 100% right, prioritizing and recognizing that you have limited time, was what he showed me I needed to do. So I started painting furiously. I painted before that, but just I never showed anybody anything. I never entered any shows. Um, yeah, I started entering competitions and painting just every day as a kind of exercise, and honestly, never looked back. It changed everything, not overnight, but it did in that instant. It all changed.
Laura Arango Baier: 41:57
That was, Wow, that's very moving. Oh, that is so moving.
Thomas Schaller: 42:02
100% true. And I tell him about that now, and he said, really, was I that rude? Said, No, you really. You weren't. You were just for you. It was obvious, as it is to me now, but at those days, I couldn't hear things like that without being defensive or or upset.
Laura Arango Baier: 42:26
It's understandable
Thomas Schaller: 42:29
he can't think of a different way to live his life, that's all and now some years later, I can't think of a different way to lead mine. So I would say the same thing to somebody who asked me, although hopefully I'd be a little more gentle about
Laura Arango Baier: 42:48
it, it's very It's very funny, because I actually, I've interviewed someone else on the podcast who also asked, I think they had a teacher. They asked their teacher, okay, so what are the steps to to becoming an artist. How do I do this? And they had, like, a notepad and like the pen, they were ready to just write a to do list, and their teacher said the same thing, just paint and it'll it'll come
Thomas Schaller: 43:14
it really, it's simple. I I can't believe I'm even saying this, because I can remember that like yesterday. But really, just to be a little bit more nuanced about it, it's just about prioritizing. If painting is really your priority in some you will find a way to make it that. And yeah, it meant I had to live quite a number of years where things were pretty sketchy and it was a problem, and I didn't know how I was going to do it, but, but because it was a priority, it was okay. I figured it out. We all do, yeah,
Laura Arango Baier: 43:58
yeah, which actually in those in you know, maybe those first few years, when I made that transition, did you find yourself doing anything else to supplement income? Or did you have money saved? How did that work?
Thomas Schaller: 44:11
I didn't have as much money saved as I should have. I made pretty good money as an architectural illustrator. I had some so that was a cushion that others didn't have. I started teaching, if I'm honest, sooner than I should have. I think I I do okay now, but I wanted to become an artist as a kid, because I thought that's a great way I can spend my days never having to talk to anybody, because I always had such a hard time speaking to people I was so shy in school and so timid, I don't know. So I thought, Oh, this is a great way. Maybe I can make a living painting just sitting in my studio. And I never have to go to meetings or give presentations or or talk to people. So I started teaching, and I was incredibly fumbling and awkward, but what I recognized over a couple of years time was I did have skills and things I could share. So I didn't feel fraudulent in that way. But what I realized is that if you were dedicated to teaching you teach yourself as much as you teach your students. So what it afforded me was the opportunity to say out loud what I believed, and I'd never done that before. I'd written things down. I had a jumble of chaotic thoughts in my mind. But when you have to stand in front of a group of 20 or 30 people and say exactly how you feel about painting, for example, you realize, did I really mean that? And either yes or no is the answer, or maybe partly I did. So I began to nuance and twist it and analyze it and think, and it's become a way for me to teach myself how I really feel, the direction I want to go. And so my whole thing about teaching is just not teaching it. It's sharing my my artistic journey. But it really is. So yes, I started teaching as a way to supplement my income, because I wasn't selling anything at all in those days. And then I'm still teaching now, because I, I love it.
Laura Arango Baier: 46:44
Oh, I love that. And of course, you've, you've written books as well. Which um, you've written, I think maybe four or five books. I think that I've seen three
Thomas Schaller: 46:54
or four. I'm working with a new one right now.
Laura Arango Baier: 46:57
Ah, that's predicting one.
Thomas Schaller: 47:03
Yeah, it's a lot of work, but I I love to do it. I love writing as much as I love painting. Sometimes, again, it's a way to teach yourself how you really experience the world. If you if you have to write a sentence and feel good about it or not good about it, then that exercise is very, very enjoyable and helpful to me. But this new book will be about, really the things we're talking about today, about how to use rather than just visual observation, how to use memory dreams and pure invention as a way to observe and experience the world, because I do. It's fundamental to to me and my work. So it's going to be a book about how you can use your dreams, essentially to design your paintings in the real world.
Laura Arango Baier: 48:05
Oh my gosh. Well, let me know when that's out, because I would totally buy a copy of
Thomas Schaller: 48:10
that. Yeah, it's, uh, it's roughly halfway done. I have most of the images done for it. But because I love writing, the exercise of writing is is difficult technically, to get it to sound the way I want and to say what I'm really trying to say, succinctly, accurately.
Laura Arango Baier: 48:35
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the written word is another art form, and it's it has its own complications too, where, with visual art, it's it's such a different language, because with with a with an image, there are descriptions of things that don't have a word. But in writing, we're so limited by the words
Thomas Schaller: 48:58
they are, but they're just explosions in your mind of imagery, visual and people ask me where I get my ideas for paintings sometimes, and more often than not, they come from the written word or sometimes the music. They don't come from my looking at other people's paintings. Almost never, I can't say never, never, but rarely. I think one of the curses of being a visual artist is the tendency we can have to compare ourselves with others, and I'm maybe too cautious of that. I just never want that to happen. For me, it's such a waste of time and energy. We all as us, that's all we can do. So there are painters who I think, in this way or that way, are better than I am, but that's the wrong word. They're they're different. They experience the world differently. Uh, again. Back to students. I think we can stop ourselves from developing if we spend too much time looking at other people's art and saying, Oh, I could never do that. No, you couldn't, but they could never do what you're doing. So don't worry about it. Do what you do.
Laura Arango Baier: 50:21
Thing that's good.
Thomas Schaller: 50:24
Yeah, that sounds good, but it's true. I mean, yeah, I'd spent years looking at other people's art and thinking, Well, I'm not going to enter this show because I could never be as good as that woman or that guy.
Laura Arango Baier: 50:40
Yeah, I think that's, that's a glass ceiling that I think most of us have of, Oh, I could never Oh, how dare I ever dream to, you know, reach higher than what I could ever do with my mortal abilities, or something along those lines. But it's funny, because we think that all the time. But then, if we look back at our early work and we compare it to our newer work, our early work is, is not. I mean, it's lacking that so it's sometimes it's hard to see how, how much you've improved, because you're so hung up on Oh, I wish I were better. I wish I could blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It just steals away that joy of, you know, climbing that mountain and then looking down and being like, oh my gosh, I climbed all of this, you know?
Thomas Schaller: 51:31
Yeah, I know that feeling so well. It's another one of my favorite topics, which is critic criticism and being self critical, probably most visual artists are more critical of themselves than anybody else could ever be, as horrible as people can be online occasionally, I think we're much harder on ourselves. So recently, or the last few years, I've tried to find ways of critiquing myself in a helpful, healthier way, and I think that can be done for all of us. You can see, take pleasure in what we're where you've accomplished, but obviously recognize, oh, I'd like to do this differently, or I could improve this or that. I don't find a problem with that. I think if we do it with the right mindset, getting up the next day and going to the easel isn't something we dread. It's something we can't wait to do. You know, I can't wait to sit down at my easel and paint a painting that's better than the one I did yesterday. That's That's the attitude I genuinely have almost always, not always, but generally, I, yeah, I look back at work I did two or three, 510, years ago and think, Oh, my God, I have achieved. I have achieved a lot of my personal goals, but those goals have moved. The goal posts have moved. I also think, well, you didn't ask me this, but I was getting another roadblock a couple of years back, and I went back and looked at my childhood drawings that my mom maniacally saved, and they were very inspiring to me, because what happened was I reconnected with that kid that just loved to paint and Draw without worrying about selling or exhibits or all those word salad after your name, initials, or any of those things I just love to do. It gave me such joy, and I remembered that, and I've carried that through these last few years. And just even if I have a bad day of painting, it's still a pretty good day, because I was painting, it's fun.
Laura Arango Baier: 54:06
Bravo very well said. And actually, because you brought up teaching as well, I wanted to ask you, you did mention that you started teaching sooner than quote, unquote you should have, which I mean, things happen as they do, and I think in any case, that teaching opened up a new way of seeing for you. So I wanted to ask how, how has teaching affected your work? How has it influenced your work as an artist?
Thomas Schaller: 54:39
Well, I think to give a little more nuance to what I was saying, was I, I think in trying to teach others, we do really end up teaching ourselves. I, I have a I teach all over the world live classes, but I have an online course, two of them with terra cotta. Uh, one in watercolor and one in drawing. But the thrust of both of those courses is not for me to teach students, you know, this laundry list of techniques to get better and better, although, of course, we go into that they're really structured around trying to help students find their own artistic voice within it's a heavy lift sometimes, but it is so gratifying, and in doing that, it helps make it easier for me to do so as well. So yes, I teach them concentrate on the intention of your work, not just the specific painting, but why did you get up today and want to do a painting, as opposed to anything else, lying on the couch and watching Netflix or something? There's something in us that makes us want to do that. That actually makes us have to do that. And that's where I try to get students to investigate, turn over those rocks. What's under those rocks, that thing inside you, I think we all have within us, everything we need already to become truly great artists. The work is not just in the techniques, but it's in turning over enough of those psychological rocks and becoming comfortable with what we find that makes us reach higher and and go farther. So these kinds of discussions I have with my students are helpful for them. I like to think they are, but but also for me, because that's the work I'm doing. So we're really all in it together. We're at on the same road. Some of us are at different spots along that road, but we're all on the same road, going to the same place. We all have a slightly different way of getting there.
Laura Arango Baier: 57:08
Wow, that's beautiful. I think the other the other side of it too, that obviously, a lot of people, they're, maybe they're afraid to make the jump right into becoming full time artists, kind of like how for you it was, oh, this is uncharted territory, and I'm terrified. And of course, it's understandable. But then you know, when you do start painting, and you do start creating the work, and we do say, oh, everything falls into place after that. Do you find that it isn't focusing on the work itself that helps to sell it. And do you find it also? You know, focusing and prioritizing the work is what helps bring the opportunities to sell the work.
Thomas Schaller: 57:56
Wow. Yes, I do. I think what I was trying to say earlier with too many words, was when I started getting stuck a couple of years ago, and I went back to look at my childhood drawings. I tried to, I did a lot of work on my current paintings, and editing, simplifying, stripping them down and trying to make them a little bit more direct expressions of my experience of the world, but things that truly gave me joy, things I connected with, if I do a painting geared toward a collector or to hopefully get into an exhibition, or to please somebody else, that's a sure road of failure for me. It may not fail, but it's pretty likely going to when I do a painting just because I love it, with an idea that I'm really latched onto, and that means something truly important to me, more often than not, even if it's not as technically brilliant as I might wish, those are the paintings that tend to Get juried into exhibitions, the paintings that collectors tend to want to buy, if they can feel that connection that I had, if that, if that's missing, then it's really just a technical exercise. So so he Yes, yeah, I do take my own medicine. It's not that bad.
Laura Arango Baier: 59:45
That's good to know. Um, but of course, you know, let's say you have the work, right? What? What has been for you, in your experience, the best avenue to sell your work? Has it been competitions, galleries?
Thomas Schaller: 59:59
Oh. Um, they're all good. But no, my and I'm in a pretty good gallery here in New York. I do okay there. My best sales are direct. When I talk to people through my website, through my Faso website, it's been shocking the amount of people I've connected with, you know, and these aren't just people who are investing in art because it's a thing like an NFT or something. These are people who resonate with what I'm trying to do. And a lot of them are, you know, many times over, repeat customers, and they monitor my work from my website, my newsletters and that sort of thing. So it's been, hands down, the best outlet I've had for for selling work. Yeah, I sell work from exhibitions and my gallery, as I said, and sometimes right off social media, which is a little shocking, but okay, but that's okay. I think it's important, though, when you're trying to get established, just to have a venue, just get your work in front of people's eyes. I came of age as a painter right in the heyday of social media and like everything else, I just had to figure it out as best I could. And despite all of its downsides, it's been the making of me, I have to admit, so. But the website is 10 to one the best, the best place for me, because it's just art centric. It's not, there's no photos of my breakfast or my pets aren't there. So all about the other, yes,
Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:53
yeah, which, by the way, I love your website. I think it's the design is gorgeous, and it really displays your work beautifully, beautifully. Thanks.
Thomas Schaller: 1:02:00
But to the ease with which they make it to have such a website templates and all of that.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:10
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Um, and then, do you have any final, final advice for someone who wants to pursue a full time career as an artist?
Thomas Schaller: 1:02:26
Yeah, I have an answer, but I wanted to be clear and not sound patronizing or something. I always advise people who ask me, Do you have any advice for me if I want to break into the world of fine art or improve my art or develop my own personal style, whatever your goals are. And I mean this with all sincerity, don't take too much advice. I mean, listen, sure people offer advice generally well meaning, and they may have something useful to say, but do not be afraid to pick through it carefully and say, like you're shopping for a shirt at the store. This one fits, but it doesn't look good on me. This one? Yeah, this is me. What I'm saying by all those words is we have a voice, an artistic voice in the back of our heads that I think takes, for me at least an enormous amount of practice and work to first find and then begin to listen to. But it knows what it's talking about. It knows what you want. It knows what feels right for you. It knows what doesn't feel right for you. Figuring out, in this world what we don't want, what doesn't fit, I think, is just as important as figuring out what does so trust your interior voice. So people may give you wonderful, heartfelt advice, but don't be afraid to put it on the shelf or even ignore it if it doesn't seem like a good fit. I think we all know what we need to do to get our work in front of other people, and then ultimately prioritize, if painting, if you want it to be a priority, make it a priority. Do it every day. Just carve out a space in your life that belongs to you and say, This is mine, and this is where I create art and make it an essential part of your day, the same way as breathing or or breakfast or exercise or whatever it may be, it's just prioritizing. Is
Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:01
incredible. Yes, wow, yeah, it was very inspiring.
Thomas Schaller: 1:05:09
Thank you. You know it's everything. We're all a work in progress. I'm still heading to where I want to be and where I want to be shifts year by year too. It's not always the exact same spot, but yeah, just working at it and again, prioritizing it has been the answer for me, because I I don't second guess myself anymore, or waste any time sitting around wondering if I'm if I'm doing what I should be doing with my time, because I know that I'm young. Yes, yeah,
Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:40
yeah. It sounds like you really learned to trust yourself, which speaks volumes. You know that that going from that crisis moment of I'm doing things for others and doing things for others and I'm empty, to I have to trust my own vision,
Thomas Schaller: 1:05:59
yeah, and I again, I know we're not all the same people. I you know, my background was very Midwestern, very strict, and I think as a kid, I was taught to not want very much, to lower my expectations of life and myself, to be as humble as possible, and to not want what I wanted. So that's how I developed my art, by giving myself permission to want what I want and to figure out a way to get it that didn't hurt anyone else and made my life more than worth living. So we're not all the same, but I think we all owe it to ourselves to do that
Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:44
absolutely yes. It's okay to be a little selfish.
Thomas Schaller: 1:06:49
It's absolutely,
Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:51
I think it's essential, yes, especially as an artist, because only
Thomas Schaller: 1:06:56
then are you capable of giving to any other, anybody else you're only capable of being available to other people. Yeah, it's part of self love. If you can't take care of yourself, it's impossible to take care of those people you love. So that's all, all part.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:07:20
Yeah, yeah. You can't give from an empty cup, as they say, Yep. Well, where can people find more of your work? Oh,
Thomas Schaller: 1:07:33
yes. Well, my website through Faso. It's Thomas W schaller.com Also, I'm all over social media. I love Instagram, and I know what it is and I know what it isn't, but you can find me there at Thomas W Schaller. I'm also all over Facebook, all of my socials. You can find me under my name. So I do hope you You don't know my work. I hope you check it out. I hope it means something to you, and I hope this talk was in some way constructive or useful for for people who watch.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:13
Yeah, absolutely. And actually, I will also be including all of your links in the show notes, so people can just go into the episode show notes and go check out your gorgeous work. And I wanted to ask you, too, if you have any upcoming shows or any workshops or anything that you would like to promote. Okay,
Thomas Schaller: 1:08:31
great. Yeah, I do have an online course that you can always check out. It's ongoing. We're taking signups now for both drawing course and a watercolor mentorship through terracotta dot art. I do have an upcoming show here in New York, but the dates aren't posted, so I think it's going to be mid next year. New book coming out next year, coming up, but that'll all be posted on my website. Two I teach live courses. As I said, you can find those on my website. I do a residency in Italy every year, so we're taking signups for that. If anybody's interested in painting beautiful Italy, it's, yeah, hard to be so
Laura Arango Baier: 1:09:24
well. Thank you so much. Tom for giving us some of your time and your incredible wisdom.
Thomas Schaller: 1:09:31
Oh, honestly, it was a pleasure, Laura, thank you for asking and for your wisdom too. That was a really good talk. Thanks so much.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:09:40
Thank you.
