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For today’s episode we sat down with Emma Kalff, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90–95% of her income from her art after years of gradual building, side jobs, and business education. She began in sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her, and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts. Her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered, dreamlike paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically rather than from strict pre-planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large 30x40 inch linen paintings—“who, what, when, where, why”—that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically, and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business: balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities, and not waiting passively to be “discovered.” Throughout the conversation, she is honest about the psychological challenges—discipline, burnout, distraction from social media—while still affirming that this open-ended, uncertain time offers artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and Patreon to stay updated on her work!
Emma’s FASO site:
emmakalff.com/
Sign up for Emma’s Newsletter!
emmakalff.com/page/49408/newsletter-signup
Emma’s Patreon:
patreon.com/cw/EmmaKalff
Emma’s Social Media:
instagram.com/emmakalff/
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Transcript:
Emma Kalff: 0:00
That’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere. And it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, yeah, you’re running a business, and you live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.
Laura Arango Baier: 0:31
Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today’s episode, we sat down with Emma Kalf, a painter living in a tiny rural town in southwestern Colorado, where she now earns 90 to 95% of her income from her art. After years of gradual building site jobs and business education, she began in Sociology at Boston University, realized social work wasn’t for her and followed her heart down to the art world in New Orleans through figure modeling, eventually receiving a rigorous classical training at the Academy of Fine Arts, her work evolved from plein air landscapes into layered dream like paintings that combine candid photographs of people with Colorado’s dramatic landscapes, allowing compositions to unfold organically, rather than from strict pre planning. Emma is currently working on a series of five large, 30 by 40 inch linen paintings, who, what, when, where and why, that explore existential questions about living and making art in a socially, politically and technologically volatile era, partly through reinterpreting historical symbols in a contemporary context. She emphasizes that a sustainable art career requires treating art as both craft and business, balancing studio time with marketing and education, diversifying income streams, engaging with local communities and not passively waiting to be discovered throughout the conversation, Emma is honest about the psychological challenges, discipline, burnout, distraction from social media, while still affirming that this open ended, uncertain time offers Artists unprecedented freedom and direct access to their own audiences. Finally, Emma encourages us to sign up for her newsletter and patreon to stay updated on her work. Welcome Emma to the FASO podcast. How are you today?
Emma Kalff: 2:32
I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Laura Arango Baier: 2:36
Yeah, I’m excited to have you because I love your work, I think there’s something so unique about the vibe in your work. The general sort of theme that just permeates through all of them is this very otherworldly, very dreamlike. And I’ve never seen paintings quite like that before, so I’m very excited to pick your brain about how they have come to be. So thank you for being here. Thanks. Thank you, yeah, yeah, of course. But before we dive into your beautiful work, do you mind telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Emma Kalff: 3:16
Yeah. So I’m Emma Kulp. I live in southwestern Colorado, in a super tiny rural town of 1000 people, I work largely for myself. I’d say like 90 95% of my income is from art. Took me a while to get there, definitely, like, not an overnight thing by any means. I let’s see, I’m in my early 30s now. I started out, went to college in Boston, at Boston University, studied sociology, and then realized pretty quickly that social work wasn’t really going to work for me, because it’s really emotionally taxing and draining, and I kind of found myself all the time in college. I was just in the Arts Building looking at the paintings, because they had this big hall with all the the painting majors work, and I was always in there looking at everything. And yeah, I graduated, and I bought a one way ticket to New Orleans. Didn’t really have a plan, but ended up modeling, figure modeling in art classes and stuff, and just started to become completely enthralled in the art world. Because every time I modeled, I got, like, a little lesson, and I got to watch everybody draw and learn. And so I got hooked really quickly, and I ended up studying at the Academy of Fine Arts in New Orleans after modeling there under alcipus osals. He actually recently passed. He passed in September. Unfortunately, I. But yeah, I had a really, I was fortunate. I had a really, really good education in the arts, classical education, and very rigorous and after that, I did mostly landscape work, a lot of plein air. And then I started, more recently, layering the figure into my work, and I mostly paint oil on wood panel. And, yeah, that’s what I’m doing now.
Laura Arango Baier: 5:34
Yeah, yeah. I think, Oh, I love that. There’s nothing better than, you know, hearing someone who very much. Like, didn’t realize, like, Oh, this is where I’m going, and just went with the flow, because that’s what it really feels like. Because it goes to show that sometimes, you know, our intuition just tends to work in magical ways, or even just the things we naturally gravitate towards. And hearing that you were a model, I love that, because, of course, I studied at academies, and there was nothing more fun to than, like, talking to the model. And usually they’re always artists. They’re, they tend to be musicians, actors, performers, also very, very artistically oriented. So I think it’s really cool that you were able to, you know, get in there and also like, you know, peek at, like, what people are doing, and, like, listen to the lessons, and then decide, okay, now I’m gonna do this because I’m sure it must have given you also a little bit of an idea of what it was going to be like to study how to paint, right?
Emma Kalff: 6:30
Yeah, that’s a good point, actually, yeah. And it, you know, New Orleans, the depth of the art world is very intense, like, there’s a lot of different pockets that you can sort of vanish into in the art world. And so I got, yeah, I got an inside look behind the scenes in like two lane, but also like private artist studios and like sculptor studios painters, like random little offshoot drawing groups that people tried to start that didn’t go anywhere. And, like, it was just a very broad sort of education in a way that I didn’t even, I don’t think I even realized that at the time. But, yeah, it was very, it was very cool,
Laura Arango Baier: 7:16
yeah, yeah. And also just, I think, the really cool thing that I think you experienced, that not many artists kind of think about, also, is getting that insight about the actual structure of these schools. Because sometimes, you know, someone would be like, Oh, I really want to go study here, but then they don’t really, they can’t really visualize or imagine, like, the actual way that these schools are structured, like when you’re working with the model, and then when you’re working on still life or working on or working on another project, it’s a very it’s kind of rigid, it’s very specific. So knowing that is very helpful, because you know what to expect. Yeah, and do you find that you always wanted to follow the path of the artist? Or was that like, you know, it just kind of emerged as you went on,
Emma Kalff: 8:04
yeah, the more I look back on my life, I’m like, I don’t think I could have done anything else. For one thing, I’m really bad at working for other people. I’m like, I don’t have that personality type. Like, I can’t show up at an office at nine o’clock in the morning dressed in a way that I wouldn’t normally dress, and talking in a way that I wouldn’t normally talk like I I cannot do that, unfortunately, so. But also, yeah, from the time I was really little, I think this is the only thing that I really wanted to do. And my mom used to take us to like I grew up outside of Philadelphia, and she used to take us to the Philly Museum of Art all the time. And I would, I’d have these almost like spiritual experiences in front of the paintings at a really young age, like, I mean, just huge paintings, and I would just stand in front of them, and almost like cry when I was even like, I don’t know, 1012, 13 years old. And, yeah, it’s interesting. I was always really attached to painting, and then sort of falling into the art world, you develop this other relationship to it, where I have a more technical view of it now, and, like, I don’t go to a museum and cry in front of the paintings anymore, which is sort of, it’s a bit of a loss, but it’s also just growing into, I think, being an artist and like building a career out of it, you Just start to stand at a different angle towards it. But yeah, I the more I think about it, the less I think I would have done anything else with my life.
Laura Arango Baier: 9:51
Yeah, I feel like a lot of artists relate to that, also the I can’t imagine working regular quotations. I. Job because I say the exact same thing. It’s like, I don’t like working for someone else. I don’t like being told what to do, because it there’s something about it just feels like micromanagement. So it’s like, it’s funny. But then at the same time, I think being your own boss can be really tough too, because, like I mentioned to you before, it’s like, I hope, I hope your boss is nice to you. Because I think as artists, we tend to be kind of, kind of rough with ourselves. It’s, it’s a bit of a it’s kind of, it’s a double edged sword, because, of course, we want to reach for excellence, and the way to reach for excellence is by, like, working hard towards it. But I think, you know, it’s also useful to not overdo it, because then, if you’re burnt out from putting yourself into so many roles and trying to do so many things, you end up, you know, struggling, and then you can’t work for like, a month or two or a year, because you’re just so burned out. But yeah, I totally relate to that. And then even also that sort of like loss of innocence, of like, Oh, I know how this is painted. It’s no longer, quote, unquote magical anymore, but at the same time, yeah, and it can feel kind of sad, but then you can still kind of look at the images that inspire you anyway, and still be fascinated by them, maybe not in the same sense, because I totally relate to that too, but you still get that feeling of, huh? I wonder how they did that aspect. I wonder how they painted this little piece, what pigments that they use, because it becomes like this almost dissection of understanding of like composition and storytelling and all these things that add complexity. And you can still look at the image and think, I remember when I used to cry in front of this, but at the same time, though, it’s like, oh, I mean, I won’t, but, I mean, I’ll cry, but it’s because I want to paint like, because it like moves me in the same way anymore, but it’s kind of cool, because that means you feel like it’s reachable to an extent. I feel like when, when we’re, you know, incapable of doing it, it does, you know, have a different feeling. But having that capability, it’s like, Oh, I’m gonna grab it. I’m gonna do it. If anything, it’s like, almost like motivational,
Emma Kalff: 12:18
yeah, that is true. It’s more of like a technical fascination than anything else, yes, yeah,
Laura Arango Baier: 12:25
and speaking, actually also of ideas and creation. Where does an idea begin for you for your paintings?
Emma Kalff: 12:36
So, yeah, like I said, I went to this really classical school where it was a very one to one relationship. It was like, there’s a piece of fruit on the table at 2pm like, paint the piece of fruit on the table at 2pm don’t mess it up. You know, fix this. Fix that. It was like a very which was great. It was a very one to one relationship with what you were seeing and what you were painting. And I think that’s super important to develop that as an artist, because you’re actually learning the language. Like my teacher used to say, if you come out of an art school, somebody should be able to put something in front of you, any given object on the planet, and you should be able to paint it. And if they’re not teaching you that, then, like, what have you actually learned? So I’m, I’m super grateful for that. But after I got out of school, I did sort of want to deviate from that, I guess, in my own way, and move into, like, more layered work that wasn’t such a one to one relationship to reality. And I had a teacher in school, Gus Hoffman, and he he was always talking about how he builds a composition as he goes and he doesn’t start with a single idea. He just sort of like, goes, follows it and lets it click into place. And so I started exploring that, basically where something starts for me is usually a photo. I always am taking pictures of everything. I try to take a lot of candid photos of people like this is my sister, just like eating something on the side of the road at one point, and that that background is different landscape that I layered in. But yeah, I really like candid images of people. Also, where I live in Colorado is super beautiful. It’s it looks like the Swiss Alps out here. It’s like this huge mountain range, the San Juans with the snow on it, and like, everywhere you turn, it’s just really beautiful. So it’s a combination of photos and the landscape, because I have such a long history of. Of plein air. I am always driving around with an easel in my car, and I always have a couple, like, I probably have three or four panels in my car right now. I have a bunch of paint and stuff. So, like, I pull over whenever I see something I like, and have some time, I’ll pull over and paint it, and then I’ll take that landscape back into the studio and layer stuff into it. Don’t layer a figure. And then sometimes I’ll take something out, or I’ll change the color palette, or just sort of keep moving like that until it sort of clicks into base. I very rarely start with an idea and then execute it exactly how I’ve drawn it. I have a really hard time that I usually kind of let it unfold, which, you know, is it’s a sort of a double edged sword, because I have paintings that took me, like, three years to complete, because they were they were gone over so many times that you wouldn’t recognize the original image if you saw it to the last image, like the final painting that you see, there’s like three other paintings underneath that. But, yeah, that’s, that’s mostly how I work now.
Laura Arango Baier: 16:22
Sorry, I was muted. Yeah, no, I love that, because that it’s, I feel like, in terms of process, you mentioned a lot of things there that were very important, which is, you know, the over planning type of stuff that, like we artists tend to do, or the approach of, like, trying to organically allow a piece to develop as you work with it. I think those are, like, those two parts of of the coin that are, I guess, like we all experience and experiment with those types of ways of working at some point, because the rigid over planning, like you said, like, it just sometimes it just doesn’t work out the same way. Like, like, you lay everything how you think it’s supposed to go, and then it doesn’t. It just doesn’t, like, maybe the arm isn’t in the right place, like, you imagine it in a different spot, but it just physically can’t do that. But then I really love that idea of just allowing something to develop, or even, like a halfway kind of, like what your instructor mentioned, where it’s like, oh, I start with like, maybe this one thing, and then it just comes together. I think that’s really awesome. And then currently with your work, because you created a really cool series that’s very much based on some sort of work that you did, where you went around and you did, I believe it was, it was like, farming, yeah, yeah. I really love those pieces. And then, because it’s so there’s so there’s something very much, like, tied into memory and like, how you know, it’s really cool because, like, even in the painting showing your background there of your sister, I wouldn’t have thought that she wasn’t in that landscape, which I think is really cool too, because you have that’s one of those really difficult things to do as an artist, is to be able to make your figure feel like they’re in that landscape and not like a sticker, which tends to happen sometimes. So I think you’ve really pulled that off, and especially also in the other paintings I’ve seen of yours with people you’re welcome. What are you trying like? What’s your current question that you are chasing right now in your work? What is What are you trying to figure out in your work right now, whether it’s, you know, process or subject matter?
Emma Kalff: 18:48
Yeah, it’s funny talking about questions, because I’m actually working on a series of 530, by 40 inch paintings that are each painting is a question. So there’s who, what, when, where and why, are the five paintings. And it’s my first time working on linen. Actually, maybe since art school, I sort of moved away from campus, but I’m on linen now, and I actually, I really, really like it, but it’s sort of a metaphor, I guess, for this time that we live in like, I feel very, almost like I’m in this existential crisis where I’m a little paralyzed and I don’t know, like what to do or where to go or how I’m supposed to move anymore, because we’re in this socially and politically, like, highly volatile and very transitory space. It feels like, like we don’t have a cultural moment or landmark almost in history to compare to this, because the influence of technology is so heavy. So it’s kind of like we’re all learning how to walk in a way, like how to figure this out and so kind of just. Asking these like super basic questions, feels like a starting place where I can sort of project my ideas onto and I actually got this book. It’s like the dictionary of archetype and symbol in art history when I started this series, because I thought, you know, like we aren’t connected to in the same way that we are in such a confusing time. It’s it that translates into the art world too, right? Like you used to be able to look at a painting and literally read what the artist was saying. It wasn’t like up for interpretation. It wasn’t it was either like commissioned by the church as a direct commission of a certain religious icon or story, or it was commissioned by a wealthy patron who wanted the specific sort of image of their family or what have you. It was very top down, and it was very direct. And even like you can go back and look at old still lifes, and it’s like, in this book, it’s like each object that you look at has this specific meaning, like a candle, if you put a candle, it was like the symbol for the fleeting nature of life. Or you put a deck of cards, and that was the crazy thing to me. Is a deck of cards used to be the symbol for Vice, which I’m like, if you put a deck of cards in a painting. Now, I think people would like that would totally not connect. That would completely not someone would not be like, Oh, you live a life of vice. Like, you know, it was more be like, Oh, this is kind of a fun touch or something. So I think that’s all really interesting. And I I started to look through this dictionary and sort of incorporate some of the symbols into my paintings, and sort of exploring putting those old symbols that has such a concrete meaning into a contemporary context where that meaning isn’t really there anymore, but you can still use the symbol. And I guess I’m thinking about, I don’t think that we’ll ever go back to a time when there’s such a strict definition, visual definition, to things in painting, but I’m curious where we end up a few decades from now, and like, whether we will sort of loosely reinvent some new symbols of meaning, or if we’ll just keep moving in this, like open ended direction, which the open ended direction is great, like, I’m very grateful to be an artist in A time where you can do what you want. And I think I’m, I’m doing what I’m doing, because I’m living in this time. Like, if I was living even 50 or 100 or 200 years ago, I would be completely different, probably. But yeah, I’m, I’m glad that we live in this open ended time. I just think it’s, it’s like, in such a stark contrast to where it was, and it’s, yeah, it’s interesting to to just compare and like, think about where it was and where it’s going,
Laura Arango Baier: 23:14
yeah, yeah. And I feel like, I, I totally relate to that. There’s nothing more fun than like, coming across like, oh, this. This object over here actually means this. And one of my favorite ones was, like, if a portrait painter painted someone and then they put a fly on them, it was supposed to mean that they were a terrible person, or, like, they had, like, some sketchy thing, because it’s like, huh, I would totally sneak that into a painting if I ever did like a painting of someone I didn’t particularly like or wanted to represent as like a negative figure. So I totally love that. I’m also very much into, like, the symbolism of old paintings. And it is, it is a great pity that we don’t quite have that anymore, in the same way, you know, because time goes on and things change, I feel like the equivalent, maybe for a generation, is memes, where sounds have meaning. Now, where you hear it is like, Oh, that. That’s the sound when someone’s really disappointed that the thing they bought turned out to be bad, or, you know, stuff like that. I feel like that’s maybe, like the newest stuff that’s going around. But it is really wonderful, like you said, to be in a time where you can do anything on a canvas, and it will most likely be appreciated and seen by tons of people because internet, which also brings me to something you mentioned, which is we are definitely in unprecedented times. And I heard a person describe it as we are building an airplane in the sky, and we don’t know if it’s going to work, because that’s the repercussions that it’s had on, like, you know, people’s self esteem, like children, for example, the addictive qualities of Instagram and social media and all these things. These are all fascinating things. And then, of course, AI like, there’s. So much happening in our time that we just we don’t know what to do with it. So I think it is, it is a little bit like how you said, an existential crisis. I also feel the same. I also feel like, oh my god, this tiny black box that I hold every day kind of freaks me out. But also I can read stuff that’s really cool about paintings and look at paintings and these things that I love, it’s almost like a love hate relationship, which really sucks, but I totally relate to that. So I’m really excited to see your paintings, because I bet it’ll be a really cool interpretation of, like, different symbols, and I’m very, very curious now do you when do you think you’ll have these completed? Or do you not have, like, a particular timeline for them?
Emma Kalff: 25:47
Um, my loose timeline right now is dropping them in July. I’m hoping that that will give me I have all the concepts, and most of them are like, 50, 60% of the way there, except for who I’m getting really stumped on who, because I don’t want to hit the nail too hard on the head or, like, make it to like, yeah, too, yeah. Like a person with a mask on or something. So I’m trying to, I’m looking for ways to make that one a little more subtle, but I’m thinking I’ll drop them in July. I’m going to put them out through my newsletter, which I’ll give you the link and yeah, so if you’re interested in that, just sign up at my newsletter and you’ll get first dibs on that. I’m really excited about it, and they’re pretty large scale for me, like I, because I lived on the road and did plein air on the road for about a year. I got really used to doing I did like, I think it was 40 little eight by 10 panels, and because that could just stick them in my car, you know, they were the little, thin little panels. So I’m, I’m very happy to have a studio now and maybe doing some bigger work.
Laura Arango Baier: 27:04
Yeah, yeah, I feel like that’s like, oh, maybe not every artist, but I think most people that I’ve met, we always feel like I want to do big. Want to do big. It’s a challenge. Just more space. There’s more detail that needs to be input, right? Because they’re the smaller paintings, they can be very detailed, right? But the bigger ones, the challenge is making it look good. Because I like, if you’re doing something life size, for example, it can be, you know, really tough to really make it work. And at that point, of course, having a studio space is very, very important. You can’t really do that out of your car, yeah, but, you know, having the space to step back and, like, look at the if you have a model, or look at the image, and then look at painting, make sure that it’s looking, you know, optically, all right, yeah, that’s really exciting. It’s always fun to hear, you know, artists like challenging themselves as well. Like, oh, my next thing is a really cool set of pieces. But then also, like, with a the extra part of, like, challenging your technique with size as well, whether it’s smaller or bigger. I think that’s really one of those things that a lot of us should be pursuing as artists as well. You know that challenge trying to find something more, something new for ourselves with what we already know. And I also wanted to ask you, because you did mention before that you make a good 90 to 95% on your work, which is really awesome for you, what was the turning point that made you believe that you can make a living from your work, and did you have, like, a specific mindset that you have to change in order to get there?
Emma Kalff: 28:49
Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, so I moved out to Colorado in 2020, like, right when covid hit, and I worked for a bit on a farm, and then I was unemployed, and I took this artist Summit, this three day artist Summit, with the professional artist Institute. You know Miguel Mayer, no know that name? Yeah, he runs this. It’s called the professional artist Institute, and I think I got it in my email, and I was kind of just living in this, like, covid borderland of like, these long days that ran together and I had nothing to do. And I thought, Okay, I’m going to take this summit. And I sat on my laptop for three days, and they went over all these really fascinating, like very concrete aspects of the art world, the professional art world that I had never thought about, like I had been selling my painting for bucks, you know, on the road, or 60 bucks or whatever. Like, I wasn’t doing that with the aim of, like supporting myself completely. It was just sort of a side. Hustle, and yeah, so I took that, and then I got kind of hooked, and I signed up for like online. You can get this package of online courses through the Professional Arts Institute. So it really was just like hitting the right resource at the right time, and I still worked on the side for three, four years after that, before I, like, went full time. But, yeah, I really, I really don’t have a business skill set naturally. Like, I think every artist is gifted in a certain area. You know, like you have the you have the technical side of like, your competence in making the sort of art that you want to make, and then you have the business side. And like both sides have a ton of individual skills that you have to learn. And it does. It will do it like serves you well to identify, like, where your strengths are. And then the good thing is, you can always learn and make up for what you don’t inherently have, because we live in the internet age, like the internet sucks, but it has helped me tremendously to like, be able to take classes and learn from people. I’m always in a class, like, right now I’m in Lennon bone. He runs stop the starving artist, and that’s all about, like, learning how to sell online, because I’ve always had, like, very local clients, and I want to, like, learn how to sell on the internet now. So yeah, it was really just getting lucky and finding that resource and being like, Oh, this is actually I don’t have to float in this nebulous cloud of of waiting to be discovered or hoping that someone’s going to bump into me on the street and take a big interest in my work and become a patron. Like, I feel like that’s sort of the cloud that I was floating in before I started taking classes. And I think that’s, that’s sort of part of the mythology of the art world, is that you’ll be discovered, or, you know, one really important person is going to meet you along the way, and, like, launch your career into the stratosphere, and it’s like, I think that does happen to a select few, like very lucky people, but I think for the most part, it’s, it’s a business, like you’re running, you know, yeah, you’re running a business. And we live in a time where where you can learn how to do that, and you don’t have to, like, wait for something to come to you.
Laura Arango Baier: 32:48
At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that’s BOLDBRUSH, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it’s crucial to have a website when you’re an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, FASO.com/podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that’s basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won’t get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, FASO.com/podcast, that’s FASO.com/podcast, yes, yeah. And I think that’s also part of that starving artist myth is the something’s gonna land on your lap, and that’s not, that’s not how it works, unless you’re, you know, already incredibly wealthy and don’t have to worry about your bills, and maybe your wealthy parents have good connections, right? Because that’s oftentimes what happens in certain parts of the art world. No hate to them. I mean, it must be really fortunate to be in that situation. But for for. The 80% of us who are not in that situation, maybe even 90, 99% of us who are not in that situation, we have to find other ways, right? Like, how you’re saying, like, find resources online. Those seem really great. Actually jotted them down, yeah and yeah, just that’s part of it as well. You know, being proactive in it, because it is, yeah, like, the idea of, like, the Bohemian artist who just, like, lives in poverty, and like, you know, this very like Oscar Wilde type of, like, it’s like, you can, you can do that too, if you want. But for those of us who want to have food on the table and maybe, hopefully a mortgage someday, can’t, can’t really do that. Can’t have the bohemian life. So yeah, that’s awesome. And then, since you do primarily live from your work, what are, what are some ways that you’ve been balancing your economy as an artist, and how has that experience been for you?
Emma Kalff: 36:00
What does that phrase mean, balancing your economy.
Laura Arango Baier: 36:02
So, like, you know, like, the, for example, if you want to, like, if you know how much your your rent is, right? Like, do you know? Like, Oh, I gotta sell X paintings, or I gotta do this. Or, like, how have you been managing that aspect of living from your work?
Emma Kalff: 36:19
Yeah, that’s fair. Um, I’m fortunate. I live in a rent controlled space, so my rents not very high. I I would be really struggling if my rent was like $2,000 or whatever most people are paying. But yeah, it’s a mix of commission work, like in a given year, sometimes I’ll have a lot of commissions back to back. Sometimes I won’t also something that helps balance it is to have a wide range of prices. So, like, my original work varies from like 600 to like this one is, like, the biggest one I’ve done, and it’s 13 grand. So there’s a very wide array of price points that people can pick, and then I’ll do like, print releases too. So it’s just figuring out, like, who your buyer is and what they may or may not be able to shell out. And also I usually, if I’m doing a commission like, I’ll let people pay in parts. So sometimes I’ll have a commission that pays out over, like, six months or a year, and it might not be a huge sum, like every month, but it’s still adding into the pot. And then I do classes. I do, like individual, one on one plein air workshops. And what else do I do? I have Patreon where I put, like, a little easy, like simple beginner painter lesson every two weeks. And so with all of those things combined, it’ll shake out every month that I’ve got enough. But I think the important thing is, like having, having a bunch of irons in the fire is really, has helped me, and it’s also like psychologically easier. I think if you have like, 10 Things going it’s kind of scattered brain. But it’s also like, if one thing fails, you’re not you’re not completely bottoming out and being like, oh my god, I can’t do this. It’s like, okay, I’m just gonna throw one more thing on the fire. If it doesn’t work out, it’s fine. But like, that way you always have sort of a rotating group of things that you’re that you can possibly be making money from. And yeah, it helps to balance your like expectations and not be so like having to succeed in any one area, and like, certain things can ebb and flow. Like, if you don’t have, like, I haven’t had a, I have a commission right now, but last year was pretty slow, you know. So then it’s like, the other things can start to take up. And, yeah, it just sort of like, goes in a rotation,
Laura Arango Baier: 39:18
yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s another really great point, you know, you can’t, like, every especially, you know, when you’re working for yourself, and it’s just more organic. In that sense, there are going to be, you know, times of like, Oh, I’m making a good amount, and times of like, oh, okay, I’m not making as much. But you know, if you’re smart, right, and you live below your means and you’re saving money, you won’t be too afraid of, like, Oh no, I’m not selling enough this month. Like, how you said it’s good to have, like, not all your eggs in one basket, because you drop that basket and you’re kind of kind of screwed. So it’s good to have that. Yeah, that’s a really great point. And of course, it does help to have to live in a place that is not killing your. Bank account. Because I think right now that’s also one of the big, big problems that a lot of artists are facing right now. But you know, at least the internet is a wonderful source as well for okay, I can literally live on an island somewhere and still be able to as long as it has a like a UPS or a FedEx or DHL, I can survive, you know, yeah, but yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, too, what so far has been the greatest challenge you have faced in your career as an artist? I
Emma Kalff: 40:43
I think it’s like, staying disciplined in the studio and like, artists are notorious for, like, we only want to work when we’re super inspired, and then when we’re not, it’s like, oh, I don’t want to do this. Like, and I’m, I’m certainly no exception to that. So I definitely have times where I’m just, like, really burned out. I don’t want to go in the studio, I don’t want to paint. I don’t have any exciting ideas going on and having the discipline and, like, making yourself show up is really hard. And sort of in the same vein, it’s been really hard to like all these little incalculable things, right? Like, how long is my work day supposed to be? How quantitatively, how many paintings am I supposed to produce in a month or a year? How many are supposed to go to a gallery? How many am I supposed to like hang on to for myself? How many should be? You know, it’s like when you when you work for someone else, all of those things are sort of taken out of the equation. And it’s a it is an easier life in a lot of respects, because you work a set amount of hours, and then you know exactly what you’re going to be paid and when you’re going to be paid. And to navigate the art world on your own is hard, because you can put in 10 hours of work on a painting and not be paid for that 10 hours for 10 years, right? Like a painting can sell 10 years later, or it can sell next week. And so navigating that alone can be, it can be really tough. And also, like, I think we live in this, well, America, where I am is like, very it’s, it’s super workaholic culture, and then it’s like, you know, you have to balance like, Okay, how much do I want to do and how much of a Break do I want to give myself? And like, yeah. So I think the hardest part has been answering all of those like little questions about, How is this supposed to go? How do I structure my work day, and how do I keep myself, like, disciplined, to where I continue to do it and I don’t burn myself out, but I still produce a set amount of work. Like, that’s all been pretty difficult.
Laura Arango Baier: 43:27
Yeah, I think that’s no matter what I mean, no matter what type of self employment you’re in. I think that’s like, the key, key, key thing is, you know, no, there’s no one to tell you what to do. Like you said, there’s no convenient like, oh, just show up at the office. They tell me what I’m supposed to get done, and then I go home right which, my opinion, that’s a little bit like putting all your eggs in one basket anyway, because it’s, you know, that company goes under, you’re kind of screwed. But, yeah, I think that’s, I totally agree with that challenge, because I also feel that because, I mean, when you’re in a place where, like, you can literally do anything in your time, right? And you have a whole day where you can choose, it becomes very challenging. Because, of course, we have these distracting little beep boop boxes that we have in our pockets that love to be a time suck. But then also I relate that to that too. You know that difficult, like, Man, I’m not inspired today, or like, kind of tired, or like, I just am not feeling it. But you know, still having to show up, I think that’s probably a hurdle we will always face forever as artists. Because unless you know, someone’s really on a roll, and they can keep that role going their entire career, that’s awesome. I doubt that that’s humanly possible. I think most of us, we we have to take vacations too, or, like, actually, Kim across. Asked an article recently by from a study that was done on creativity and how being bored and like, taking time away from like, if you just finished like, a bunch of projects, like, taking some time away from them, and like, let your brain kind of settle down and refresh it really, really helps with coming up with even more ideas like, so there’s, like you said, I think we have since we do live in in a culture, at least in North America, and I would say in some parts in Europe, as well, of productivity, first, productivity first. Like creating working, working, working. It burns you out precisely because there’s no real space to pause. Like, I’m sure many of people listening have also experienced like, you have a break and you immediately fill that break with something to do that has to get done, which, unfortunately, we do also exist in that world where, like, oh, I finished my job. Now I can finally clean my dishes or do my laundry. But there is, you know, some aspect of, like, giving yourself, like, time to just read a book, or, like, sit down in the silence and not listen to anything that also really helps.
Emma Kalff: 46:11
Yeah, I really miss being bored like I, I really miss being like a teenager and these like I, when I was in high school, the summer, days were just eternal, and it was like, oh my god, I could, like, rip my eyes out of my head, but that’s so important, you know, like, and it’s, it’s really a Herculean effort now to make yourself be bored, like, to actively be Like, I’m not going to sit on the phone and I’m going to sit on my couch and, like, stare at the wall until I’m, like, really exhausted from that. I, yeah, I’ve been thinking about just getting a flip phone and, like, leaving my my smartphone in the studio, just as, like, a this is a work thing. Like, I’m going to build for Instagram or whatever, and take pictures for that, but like, sort of walking it away to not have it constantly accessible. I’ve been toying with that, but, yeah, that’s another thing that’s it’s really hard, because now that that eye, like the eye of the camera, is in the studio. It lives in the studio. If you’re, like, that sort of painter, I know not everybody is. But like, I make a lot of videos, and I think a lot of people do, and it’s like, when you when you bring that in, it takes a lot of effort to only film and, like, not let it distract you from working. And that’s it’s really it’s really hard, and at the same time, it’s super cool that you know you can build your this is like the first time in the history of humanity that you can build your own personalized audience that is literally made up of people who specifically want to see what you’re doing. And with the touch of a button, you can say whatever you want to them at any second of any day, like that. Is really cool. It’s really cool. And I think it’s like, a very important tool, but, yeah, like learning how to balance, it is
Laura Arango Baier: 48:15
it’s very difficult. Yeah, yeah. I relate. I relate to that, especially what you just said about, you know, having a camera in the studio, because it does, in some ways, it shifts the energy of the room, because now it’s like, oh man, did I position the camera correctly? Did it like, the is it in the right spot? Or, Oh no, it’s out of focus, or, Oh no, my camera died and I didn’t notice. There’s so many little extra distractions that end up happening. It’s almost better to just have like a surveillance camera or something like, oh, like, because it just, it’s a it’s so distracting to like, Okay, I’m recording on my phone. Oh no. My phone ran out of like, memory. Oh, no, I gotta get, like, a, gosh, like a cloud service or something like, it’s, it’s so much extra stuff, you know, like the whole content creation hamster wheel, as I’m beginning to call it these days. It just feels like it can sometimes be a double edged sword, much like what we’ve discussed, because one, it’s awesome. You can connect with people who can observe, you know what you’re doing and learn from it, or feel inspired by it. Because there’s so many of us out there who do you know go on the internet specifically to connect with other people and be inspired by other people’s projects or other people’s ideas. But then if it starts taking over too much, then it feels like an obligation, and it almost feels like, oh, I want to go into the studio, but I have to record this, but I don’t really want to deal with the tripod and the camera placement, and then, oh no, I bumped into it. Because it was so close to me when I was painting this one part, and now I gotta re record, but then I already painted that, like, it’s just, oh, it is so frustrating. Like there’s like, it just feels like there’s no way. Although I did think of getting, like, those, you know, those really evil metal glasses that have the camera on them. I thought about getting just because I’m not gonna record other people out there. It’s just so convenient for painting. Yeah, it’s like, oh, boop. Now they’re on well,
Emma Kalff: 50:28
because then you film something from the side, but then it’s filmed on this weird like, I like, often will film something and then I look at it after I’ve recorded it, and I’m like, it’s so skewed, it doesn’t even make sense to post this. So then you have to, like, get your camera right here, and then you’re literally, like, painting like it’s crazy, awful.
Laura Arango Baier: 50:48
Yeah, I’ve seen in the early days, I think I saw I was, maybe it was Michael Klein. He did a video tutorial, but he had a GoPro, and it was okay. But I feel like his later videos are, of course, much, much better. The GoPro was a little bit like it just wouldn’t focus completely, or like it would move around a little too like, too much. But I feel like, yeah, that’s, you see, that’s like, one of those unique things that even when GoPros were much, much, much more popular, we were still trying to figure out how to record ourselves for people. So I yeah, hopefully we can find a good solution. Maybe we can all use those met a glasses and make people stop using them to record people who don’t want to be recorded. It’s like, oh, you should market this for artists who are trying to record themselves or stream. But, yeah, yeah. And then also, speaking of marketing, since you said, you know, you mentioned, you have quite a few things going at the same time. Do you find that there’s like, one thing that is one marketing thing, or one like, avenue of sales, almost like, you know, sales funnel, or any sort of like, of these irons that you keep that actually has been the most helpful for your career.
Emma Kalff: 52:08
I think it’s just good old fashioned, like talking to people. I read this thing a few years ago that was like getting out there and socializing and like going to our openings, or like going to the bar, and like talking about your work is not less important than like being in the studio. Like being in the studio, painting is not more important than that. If that’s what you’re trying to do is like, have a career. And I thought that that was really interesting. And I’ve started to like, it’s hard, right? It’s hard to, like talk about your art, because it feels sort of like you’re, like, showing off, or you’re tooting your own horn. Or, you know, it can feel very like self important. At least, I struggled with that, and like I used to when I lived in New Orleans, I had this license where you can sell in the French Quarter. There’s like, this huge raw iron fence around the St Louis Cathedral in the French Quarter, and you can get a license, and then 365, days a year, 24/7, you have this spot that you can set up on the fence and, like, hang your your paintings. And I did that, but I was really bad at it, because I couldn’t talk to people. Like I would just sit there and I would watch people, hundreds of people, it’s the French Quarter, hundreds of people come by every day. And I would watch people, and they would stop and look at my stuff, and then they would keep going. And it took me a long time to be like, Oh, it’s because I’m not talking to them. I didn’t think that, like, I was the sort of catalyst. I felt that the art would sort of like, do its own thing. But over I think I did that for like, two years, and over that time, I started realizing that people that talk and, like, put their stuff out there in a in a nice way for people and like, have a little chat. Those are the ones that are that are selling. And I, I do. I live in a really tiny town, I think I said population of 1000 but there are a lot of people here that love art, and there’s a lot of people with disposable income, there’s a lot of retired people, and so I think, like one of the big mistakes that I’ve made living out here is to underestimate that local the potential that local people might be interested in my work. Like, I think I was in this mindset of, oh, I have to get to New York, or I have to get in these galleries in LA or at least Denver or Santa Fe, I have to get into these urban places. But often, like, You’re the biggest proponent. Like. You’re the biggest sort of factor that that will help people connect, if that makes sense, and just sort of not caring about, like, looking stupid, and just talking about it until it feels natural, it did take a while, like, to figure out what I wanted to say and how to, how to, yeah, but I think just like, staying open and, you know, if someone is, like, expressing an interest in my work, I’ll be like, Oh, why don’t you come by the studio and, like, it doesn’t. It’s not to be like, Oh, do you want to buy this painting. It’s like, No, we’re gonna sit and like, I’ll make us some coffee and we’ll have a chat, and then maybe in a year, you’ll buy something, and maybe you won’t. And like, that’s fine, but like, we’ve had that chat. And, you know, you don’t even have to have, like, a studio. You can just sort of have people over in your living room and be like, these are my three paintings that I have, or whatever. Like, I think that that it doesn’t have to be this huge thing of, like, becoming this big artist in New York or whatever. Like, I think the times are changing, and you can really do it from wherever and like, just work with what you have.
Laura Arango Baier: 56:18
Yeah, yeah. And I love that you’re really emphasizing the local community aspect, because I’ve interviewed very many artists, and a good amount of them have focused first on local communities. And of course, I mean, I feel like it’s like, you become the community artist, right? Like You’re like the well known person in town, and people tend to really love that. You know, it’s like, oh, yeah, that’s our local artist. She does this, or he does that. And I’ve also, I lived on a tiny island of 1000 something. Maybe it was 2000 people tops, and they had, like, two local artists who were very, very beloved, and like, we’re sold so much whenever, like, tourists would come by. So it goes to show, you, know, really being part of some a small community, I think, is so much. It can be so much more fruitful than like New York City, because it’s easy to get lost in New York City, amongst other artists and amongst other people who are also just building, like, very surface level relationships, instead of, you know, becoming involved with community and becoming involved with like, Oh, hey, stop by my studio. Let’s hang out. Let’s have a coffee, right? That’s very different from like, Here’s my card. I hope you like my work, and then maybe that person just throws it out. Because, you know, I when I lived in New York City, that was very much the feeling you get there. Everyone’s really, really trying to make things work and get noticed by Gallery, and get like, 20 million rejections. But that’s, of course, part of it. But then, yeah, nurturing the local stuff is, is very fulfilling and underrated, also, because, you know, it is usually a lot less expensive to live in a smaller community than it is in New York City where, like, the rent, I think, has reached like $5,000 a month. Yeah, I think, but I think that’s for like a multiple bedroom household. Maybe, like a two bedroom. It’s insane. Yeah, hopefully it goes down when I was there. Was definitely not that. But, yeah, it’s definitely a much, much easier in a smaller community. And if you find a place kind of like how, you know, you find a nice place that you resonate with as well. You don’t just move to middle of nowhere, anywhere. I think it’s nice if it’s a place you actually do feel attracted to to some extent. Like you mentioned, you know, your surroundings are very beautiful, and that’s one of the important things that you’re in a place that you feel inspired by as well.
Emma Kalff: 58:54
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I think. And it’s also like, I think galleries are really important structurally to the art world. And there’s a lot of, like, really awesome galleries that that sell work for artists and, like, help their career. But I think it’s also like, I used to think, Oh, if I just got in, like, if I just got in, like, my dream gallery, then I would be set. But it’s like, you know, you can get in the coolest, most badass gallery with the best reputation that has a ton of traffic in, like, New York or Chicago or something, and they maybe just don’t have chemistry with your work, and I can’t sell it. And it’s like, there’s something to be said for that too, where it’s like, I don’t know that goes back to having irons in the fire and being like, Okay, if this doesn’t work out, I’ll have something else. But I think the search for a gallery can be really long and difficult and like, yeah, just because it’s a gallery that you will idle. Eyes that carries a lot of artists that you admire doesn’t mean that they’re going to be able to work with you and sell your sell your stuff.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:09
Yeah, yeah, that’s a I think that’s very important reality Chuck, because sometimes it’s even local galleries who like, do like much more to like, sell an artist work, because in the end, it isn’t even, like, the notoriety of the gallery. Or, like you said, like, Oh, my dream gallery, because they have my heroes in it. Like, yeah. But like, you know, sometimes it’s those big galleries that might not have enough, like, room in their roster to add another person. Or, like you said, they don’t resonate, or they can be your heroes, but what if your style is entirely different and just doesn’t fit in with a gallery as well. Like, there are so also, so many factors. So I think, yeah, that’s a very honest reality check right there. And I think that that also goes to show that it’s not surprising to be, like, rejected by galleries time and time again for that reason, because like, Oh, we don’t have space. Your work doesn’t resonate. Sometimes it’s even just a question of, like, Oh, you’re too early in your career, or your price range isn’t in our price range. Like, oftentimes it’s like, no, we’re more expensive than that, and we don’t want to carry someone I I’ve heard that that doesn’t have that range yet, right? So there’s, like, a lot that goes in there. And also, you know, the galleries take a risk when they take on an artist, because, especially when it’s an early career artist, like, well, we don’t know if you sold anything yet, or, you know, all these things, because it is dealing with another business. And, I mean, there are a lot of caveats also as well that go with galleries. Like, Okay, what if, like, five years down the line, I decide to switch things up, and I’m no longer really painting the same thing that they decided to take me on for what then, right? That’s like the conversation that then has to begin with the gallery of whether or not you’ll continue with them, they’ll give you the opportunity to try out this new avenue, which is very natural for a lot of artists to, you know, pursue something else, or do you keep painting these things for this one gallery, but maybe pursue a different one for this other subject matter? I mean, there’s a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah. Oh man. But then I also wanted to ask you, do you have any advice for someone out there who’s listening, who wants to become a full time artist?
Emma Kalff: 1:02:29
Yeah, my advice would be to, I think if you spend an hour on your craft, like whatever art that you’re making, spend an hour on the business side. So if you spend a day in the studio, spend the next day, you know, marketing and on your computer and, like, researching that sort of stuff like that has really helped me to make a balance of it, because I think it’s really easy to get sucked into one side or the other, of like, oh, I have to market myself super hard, and then you’re not painting, or you’re not, you know, in the studio, or it can go the other way too, where you’re like, Oh, I just like, don’t want to email Today, and I’m just gonna, but it’s really helped me to have that, like, sort of one to one balance. And I think over time, if you, if you really stick to that, like, it’s almost like a mathematical certainty that you will get somewhere. And like, you diversify your your avenues, and you just keep on chipping away on it, you’ll get somewhere.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:48
Absolutely, yeah, little by little. It’s a little by little stuff. But I love that you emphasize you know that balancing both aspects, because it really is, I mean, very difficult to make it anywhere as an artist, if all you have is paintings and you don’t have the wherewithal to know how to do something with them, it can be a challenge. So yeah, having that balance and even the other way around, some people are, like, heavy on the business, but then not enough on the like, figuring out what they’re even painting side. So it’s very good, very great advice. Is there anything else that you would like to promote?
Emma Kalff: 1:04:29
Yeah, just my newsletter. If you want. I can give you the link to my Patreon. Oh, that’s helpful, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, I try to keep it super affordable, and it’s just, you know, two, two, like, really quick, easy lessons a month that’ll help you with your basic skills as a painter. And, yeah, that show that I have coming up, I’ll give you the link to my newsletter so people can check that out.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:59
Awesome. Perfect. And then where can people see more of your work?
Emma Kalff: 1:05:04
So I’m on Instagram a lot. My handle is Emma, call, K, a, l, F, F, and yeah, I’m represented by a band gallery in Denver, and I also work with milk Moon gallery in Telluride and 33 contemporary in Florida. So those are kind of my three that I’m where I have work.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:32
Yeah, cool. And then, what is your website?
Emma Kalff: 1:05:36
My website is just my name. It’s Emma cough.com,
Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:40
yeah, awesome, yeah. Well, likewise, yes, and I will add all of your links also. Yeah, cool, sweet. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much, Emma for the conversation. I definitely have a lot of food for thought, as I usually do with my interviews, but this I like the energy was very sobering but also very hopeful. So I appreciate that.
Emma Kalff: 1:06:07
Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:15
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