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To end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter, and sculptor living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary-focused art school to then find classical, atelier-based training in Florence. Matthew explains how Old Masters like Titian, Van Dyck, Rembrandt, and Velázquez shaped his devotion to painting from life, Baroque optical effects, and the idea of following their principles—especially observation of nature—rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should “go cold turkey” from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls “art zoos” (museums stripped of original context). Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture—sight-size work from life, historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting, and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character—as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time. Underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes: the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong “Odyssey”, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today, and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces.
Matthew’s FASO site:
matthewjamescollins.com/
Matthew’s Social Media:
instagram.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/
facebook.com/matthewjamescollinsartist/
Matthew’s Articles:
Historical Approaches for Contemporary Portrait Practice
Dancing Faun of Pompeii: Removed From Habitat, Out of Context
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Transcript:
Matthew James Collins: 0:00
This idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then, as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate metaphor of the artist is we’re found in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there.
Laura Arango Baier: 0:28
Welcome to the FASO podcast, where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I’m your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights to end off season 13, we sat down with Matthew James Collins, a figurative painter, portrait painter and sculptor, living and working in Florence, Italy. Matthew traces his path from a creative childhood in Oak Park and frustration with contemporary, focused art school to then find classical Atelier based training in Florence. Matthew explains how old masters like Titian Van Dyck, Rembrandt and Velasquez shaped his devotion to painting, from life Baroque optical effects and the idea of following their principles, especially observation of nature, rather than copying their style. Matthew also explains how cameras and screens distort our sense of seeing, why young painters should go cold turkey from photographic reference when possible, and how experiencing art in person and in context is radically different from viewing it in what Matthew calls art zoos, which are museums stripped of original context. Matthew shares concrete insights on portraiture side size work from life historical palettes, thoughtful posing and lighting and the slow, conversational sittings needed to reveal character, as well as his teaching method of painting alongside one or two students and correcting in real time underneath it all, the conversation keeps returning to bigger themes, the likeness of artistic voice to a lifelong Odyssey, the role of culture and curiosity, the practical and emotional difficulty of being an artist today and the enduring importance of making ambitious, sincere, beautifully crafted work that lives with people in everyday spaces. Welcome Matthew to the FASO podcast. How are you today? Hello.
Matthew James Collins: 2:29
No, I’m doing well. Thank you, Laura. Thank you for having me here. And it’s I’m doing well. It’s a sunny day in Florence, so it’s always nice. Yeah.
Laura Arango Baier: 2:38
Oh, I’m so excited to have you too, because, of course, I also studied in Florence, and it is such a beautiful city, and your work is gorgeous. I adore the poeticism of your sculptures, your portraits, and I love when someone is also trying to maintain this beautiful classical skill that we, you know, the torch that we are trying to maintain as artists, which is, you know the lessons that we’ve learned from our predecessors, you know the old masters, everyone in between who is trying to keep this art alive. So I appreciate that very much.
Matthew James Collins: 3:16
No thank you. And that’s why, when a fellow artist gives you a compliment like that, tell you to not be happy, because that’s we. We paint. Probably we make work, works of art for everybody. But if other artists appreciate that’s a little bit something special in it, in pew, they say in Italian.
Laura Arango Baier: 3:30
Additionally, yes, yeah, totally. And also because, I mean, sometimes it feels like, I don’t know if maybe you relate to this, but sometimes we make our work, whether it’s a sculpture, sculpture or painting, and sometimes we’re like, oh, this is, you know, I really love this. But then when other people see it as well, it feels much more like, ah, validation for all this hard work that I’ve been putting into this craft, and that also is very fulfilling. No, definitely,
Matthew James Collins: 3:59
and we don’t, maybe don’t get that validation as much as we’d like. So people, you spend months working on a work of art, and they go, that’s nice. And you’re like, Oh no, but Oh, that’s nice. The best work of art grows on people with time. I think,
Laura Arango Baier: 4:14
yes, yeah, I agree. And it’s it. I think also, like some works of art are just, they have a bit of, like a more of like a softer voice. They don’t have to, you know, be impactful in your face. Sometimes it could be more of, like a calm, quiet sort of contemplation that I think a lot of people hopefully are leaning more towards today because of the crazy revolution of the internet that’s been happening. So I think there’s going to be more appreciation for your type of work as well. Oh, well, I
Matthew James Collins: 4:49
hope so. Thanks. That’s I even see it in Italy. It’s a even in a culture surrounded by beautiful things, they tend to not be as sensitive to the figurative arts as we would like. That’s the so I do most of my work outside of Italy. In fact, they do in France or Spain or the states.
Laura Arango Baier: 5:07
So yeah, that’s the complexity of the markets as well. Not all markets are receptive to specific types of art. I mean, some countries are definitely much more inclined to prefer abstract other places might prefer, especially like western United States level, Western art, which is more towards realism, plein air is loved, I think almost everywhere, yeah, but yeah. So I think it’s awesome that you’re maintaining this craft alive as well. Yes. And then, before we dive into more, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?
Matthew James Collins: 5:46
Sure. Well, I’m from a town near Chicago, Oak Park, a suburb of Chicago. Grew up there, and obviously my well, not obviously, my parents are artists too. My father’s an architect, my mother’s a writer. And so at Oak Park is very kind of cultural suburb of Chicago as well, too. And so kind of grew up in a creative environment. And so I’ve always went to the museums. We go to Chicago Art Institute all the time. And that was kind of my place where I was introduced to art in first hand as well, too, which I think is really important as well. And that’s where many people don’t have the option to see art. We see art through images on phones and computer screens now, but it’s not the same as seeing works of art in person as well, too. And so and then. But as we all know, this, art isn’t really in let’s say that puritanical culture the practical nature of American culture, it’s about making a living, and so art isn’t seen as very serious way of making a living. So it’s seen as a luxury instead of a necessity. And so obviously, how I became went and started studying art and then didn’t find the right teachers, and obviously, eventually went to the School of the Art Institute of Chicago after high school, and then got a degree in art history. Because when I was there at the school art institute Chicago, which is a wonderful school, they definitely contemporary, let’s say University educations have a certain kind of now, less so than 3040, years ago, in slant towards a certain ideology of art and what its art should be, and it didn’t quite match with my connection of what I thought art should be, which was what I saw in the museum. So it was contemporary, conceptual and other things as well, too. And it those kind of works didn’t quite speak to me the way I when I went to the Art Institute, and I would see everything from El Greco to Sargent to Rembrandt and those kind of just the way these materials were transformed. In oil and in marble, there’s hearing powers, and then there’s Rodin. There’s other sculptures as well too, which kind of inspired me a lot as well. So those kind of a we’re kind of drawn to those things for their beauty. And then obviously I wanted to try to kind of find out how to make those things as well too. And so that’s where I started working and studying. And then eventually found everyone, we all find our own special way to build our skills as well too, and do other things as well, and following your kind of dreams as well. So I kind of dropped out of the School of the Art Institute in that sense. And then I got a degree in art history so I could learn more about these things that inspired me, these objects, paintings and sculptures and buildings. My father being an architect as well, too. And then started my studies on my own with different painters and sculptors as well. So eventually coming to Florence. So I came to Florence in 1994 and that was before the internet. That’s when you just, I just heard word of mouth studying with the paintress in Chicago, and she suggests, well, you already studied. I taught you all I could. So why don’t you go to Florence and study and so, and then I wrote a couple letters, and then I got a couple responses, and they just had, you know, brochures, which they don’t even have brochures anymore, they send in the mail. And then you just kind of got those, like, made a phone call, and then ended up going to the Cecil atelier in Florence so and I studied there for a couple years painting. So that was a wonderful experience where I learned a lot. Is this idea of painting from life, and this idea of building skills through repetition and building your eye based on 19th century French Atelier system as well, too. So, but Florence, back then was a little bit it’s now this. These schools have grown, and they’ve become very much larger and much more, they say, institutionalized. But back then it was, was a couple artists, and there was Charles Cecil and Daniel graves that were just teaching young artists what they knew. Then there’s Richard Saren as well. And then there’s John Angel. So it was a very kind of an interesting and wonderful environment back then, and it was cheaper, so it was easier to live so but so no, it was a wonderful way to learn, especially in a city full of art. So we know Florence. Is Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci the Renaissance and this kind of rebirth in, let’s say, figurative art that happened in the late 1300s 1400 and that’s where it was kind of a re living that kind of experience in the 90s in Florence as well, too. So it was kind of a wonderful experience. So Oh
Laura Arango Baier: 10:21
yeah, that sounds awesome. I mean, I definitely miss that aspect of Florence, the fact that, you know, you walk down one block and you’ll see beautiful buildings, a sculpture in the corner, just this attention to detail throughout the city that just it’s very magical. I think it’s one of those places that, if anyone has that, if anyone has the luck and privilege to be able to go study there, it’s, you know, one of the best places to really immerse yourself in art and in culture, at least in the medieval or Renaissance, also culture, because that’s Florence, in a nutshell. But yeah. And I love also that you mentioned how things have evolved over the years. Because I’ve also heard many artists who studied, you know, in colleges before the 90s, that they did experience this like, oh, well, I want to learn how to actually, you know, draw or paint, kind of like the old masters, but the emphasis wasn’t quite there at that time. It was much more the contemporary of anything. I have heard a lot of artists say that their teachers would say, oh, realism is dead, which a lot of people thought that at the time. So it’s a little bit unfortunate, but it’s wonderful that you know people like Cecil and you know, the schools that have happened in Florence have been so focused on trying to revive this, well, French academic style of, yeah,
Matthew James Collins: 11:53
and it was then, I guess back then, it wasn’t even even successful, wasn’t it was not as French academic that was The kind of the structure, because of this idea of an atelier, where you’d have a group of students working, and then the head teacher would come by a couple days a week, and then you’d have assistant teachers teaching as well too. So it was kind of learning by doing and so and then obviously, not obviously, of course. But then it was this idea of obviously, that was a system that kind of came from the French Academy, a French the French Atelier system, not the academy in France. So it would be private painters studios in Paris, like Carlos Duran who taught Sargent, they’d have their own Bona had their own painting studios. So it’s definitely more intimate than, let’s say, an academy, and that’s where the teacher could transmit certain ideology, not just ideology, share visions of what art could be. And so it was more, instead of French academic masters, is more ideas of when I was there in the 90s, was more Velasquez, Van Dyke, Rubens Titian. So it was this idea of looking towards the art, of looking at the art around us, and trying to incorporate that into our practice too. And then even Sargent, when I was studying their 90s, their sergeant was always important, but wasn’t really the main focus. Let’s say that’s because I was, I’m inspired by Baroque painting so and when I see I think broke painting is maybe one of the highest points of, let’s say, where the eye and the hand and then the individual expression of the artist kind of came through. So that’s where the broke air for me, is one of the best. So because you can’t have this, because you have the Rembrandt, you have a Velasquez, Van Dyke, Guido Reni, all at the same time, same color, same brushes, same everything. And look at such a wide variety of expression too. We’re in the 19th century. It all came closer together. So I mean, if you look at Rembrandt and you look at Van Dyke, you can’t see two way, grossly different ways of approaching painting, but they’re still wonderfully beautiful in their personal expression. And that’s kind of what we all become artists to express ourselves and find our own personal voice. And so that’s where that’s why the bro kind of really attracted me was this variety of expression,
Laura Arango Baier: 14:04
yes, yes. I totally agree with that. And I think probably in part, why the 19th century and then onward, I would say even, yeah, yeah, 19th century. I feel like one of the biggest shifts, of course, was, you know, the camera happening. Because, you know, like, as we know, Bouguereau did use photographs for his paintings as well. And Bouguereau, of course, came he was much more important in the when I was studying in Italy, he was one of the big names going around. Everyone’s talking about Bouguereau, everyone’s talking about Sargent. By that point, I think Sargent was one of the big ones. But I feel very much like you I, you know, my heroes are definitely, you know, like Titian and Van Dyke. Like Van Dyke especially, who was my first love. Like I saw his work when I took art history, and I was like, Oh, this is incredible. His portrait that he painted when he was 13 years old. How sure. Okay, it’s amazing, but yeah. And actually, what you just mentioned also leads me to a quote that you mentioned in your article on realism today, which I will link also in the show notes for some of our readers or for some people who want to go check it out, I totally recommend it. And the quote is, instead of treat, instead of treading in the Old Masters footsteps, Endeavor only to keep the same road. Do you mind telling us
Matthew James Collins: 15:28
some more? That was from, I think that’s from Reynolds. Joshua, Reynolds, and he’s what they he was the wonderful portrait painter, and he was obviously profoundly inspired by Van Dyke. Van Dyke was his. I think first love is all portrait painters. They should be the first love is Van Dyck. But he and his lectures, his discourses on art, which were lectures towards to his students at the Royal Academy. And he was, in some ways, just echoing what Leonardo said, too. So this is where he was saying, we look to the old masters because they inspire us, but the old masters look towards nature and so, and that’s where art, in many periods of art history, art comes from art and then. But art is very derivative. It just comes from art. So just copying art doesn’t create, let’s say, interesting and profound art as well, too. That’s where he goes, That’s so he said, we should follow the principles that they did by looking at nature and then apply them. Employ the language, which is the visual language of art, in a personal way too, but that’s also being well versed in the Old Masters too. This is where the idea of making the grand tour to see paintings in person, which is that’s where everyone who comes to Florence can has the opportunity to do that. And even Reynolds came to Italy to study wonderful examples of Titian. Because obviously Van Dyke, even Van Dyke, came to Italy to study Titian. So Titian is the godfather of, let’s say, portrait painting and oil painting. He kind of made it all. He was the first he did, the first full length portrait. He did portraits life size. He did lots of things that we all kind of take for granted, but he kind of worked those problems up. Because in the end, we make objects, and we need to figure out how to make those things. And that’s the that’s where working with another artist and having a direct dialog with someone who’s more experience is we try to do it on ourselves, but you can, but it’s it’s hard. That’s where creating dialog with other artists is important at every stage of your life. Then that’s where, because of art is lonely, but also in just learning and learning how to do things is and we as artists, we love to talk shops, no colors, brushes, all these other things as well too. So, but he was also even Leonardo says nature is the true Master too. So Leonardo talks about and that goes back to Neil Leonardo’s teacher, Verrocchio, and Andrea Verrocchio is a really important, Pivotal artist for the Renaissance, because he was the one that almost not single handedly, but started drawing from life in the studio. So instead of just copying art from the past and then just redoing it a little bit more refined, like that’s what the late Gothic and international Gothic style is. It was this idea of looking towards nature. They were looking at classical works, like classical sculptures. That’s what influenced them. But then they also started looking towards nature as well too. So it was in verocchio studio where they started doing life studies of each other, drapery studies. And so that’s where Leonardo, writing that down in his notebooks kind of transformed how we see art as well, too, because we’re kind of following it as well. That’s we see the the true form of things too. Because obviously when we look at art and look at, let’s say classical art, I mean in Greek and Roman art, it is this beautiful, naturalistic expression of the human figure, but it is kind of a It’s not stylized, but there’s a way they made them too. So, but in just copying the surface of what those sculptures are, we don’t understand the principles that the artists use to create and conceive them and then express something as well, too. And so that’s kind of, I think that’s lifelong journey for let’s say you want to say classical artist is to try to understand the language, and then in understanding the language, which is proportion and how different things relate to each other, then express that in our, let’s say, chosen material.
Laura Arango Baier: 19:10
So, yes, and that is a lot. It is so much because, you know, we look towards the old masters because they it’s almost like they have this. And I think a lot of students also see it as like, oh, they have the magic formula. But of course, their magic formula is literally just experience and observations, extreme observation of nature. But even then, you know, you can, like you said, there’s nothing better than going to a real painting and observing it and just seeing how did this painter describe this person, or describe the shape of their cheek, or describe how the hands were, which Van Dyck, of course, has his very specific hands from his very specific hand model. So there. Are. It’s like, it’s almost like writing, right, where an author might describe a character in a particular way, or a scene in a particular way, and another one would do it in a different way. But you’re still trying to decipher, ah, what are they looking at? What are they gathering from this image that they’re, you know, visualizing, like, what is that? And then from there, you kind of have to figure it out on your own as well, through, like you said, practice process, observation and repeat and and then figuring out, okay, what are the magic proportions that make something look beautiful? Because then that’s the next thing. So it’s such a deep well of knowledge that you gain as an artist, and it feels like it never ends. You know?
Matthew James Collins: 20:47
No, definitely. And that’s where I guess. And then also the figurative adds the idea of subject matter and other things as well too. And then in addition, it’s the fluency of the material becomes the most important thing. And it’s certainly not most important thing. It’s a it’s how you use your materials as well too. So if you look at Rembrandt, how he created, how paint becomes something more. It becomes life, but it becomes these beautiful colors and impastos, and they all kind of melt together. And even Van Dyck does it as well, too, in a more subtle and delicate way, too. So it’s the fluency of the language using certain materials. And the greatest artists always had that kind of connection with their materials as well, too. And that’s where the I guess, we tend to specialize depending on what we do, because it takes a while to become fluent in these materials and then expand and then fluent, then in terms of the language as well, too. So Titian kind of described paintings as poems. I’d see that as well. I think that’s maybe the perfect way, because they’re not, we’re not writing novels. When things become a little bit too narrative in a painting, it becomes, it’s not living to its full potential. And so, and then it’s how you say something is as important as what you’re saying. And that’s what makes, I think, painting so suggestive and eternal in a certain way.
Laura Arango Baier: 21:59
So, yeah, and that also reminds me of that rule that even the writing has, which is, show, don’t tell. And it’s so similar in painting as well. Because, of course, you can, you can go the Audubon style and like, really get into the nitty gritty of painting something exactly as it is, or you can find a way to use, like you said, your knowledge of medium, to describe it in a more interpretive way that gets closer to your own perception of this thing, while also maintaining the integrity of what it is which is such a challenging little area to reach. You know,
Matthew James Collins: 22:40
yeah, and that’s where, I guess the optical comes out in the broker the optical. So this idea of look at a Velazquez and then the Bruce Lee Sergeant looks at that as well, our Frans halls and the and even Rembrandt as well too. We’re up close. These paintings all kind of come together. They’re just these globs of different color pigments on a canvas with different thicknesses and translucencies, but then you step back and they become something more than what they they seem to be up close. And so we see there’s the kind of the the idea of distance giving order to chaos and expression as well too. And I think that’s a very strong, powerful metaphor that goes through all the arts as well too. That’s it. And it’s at this for art can be also there it’s making the metaphor with music is very valid as well, too, this idea of notes and then how they come together to create something much more rich and deep than just the notes themselves, too.
Laura Arango Baier: 23:31
Yes, yeah. And then the order of the notes also provides mood, definitely, you know, yeah, whether you have, like, you know, the sad or happy music, which is minor and major. But yeah, it’s exactly that I feel like with painting, we have also such a wide range as well of things to play with with like color value, focus, contrast edges, which is it can it can be a lot, which I think is also why it’s so wonderful to see all the different ways that artists have interpreted the same medium. I think what’s interesting as well, because you brought up, you know, the way that the Baroque were interpreting the optical I find also interesting that today we are, we’ve been so influenced by the camera, right? I mean, of course, it started in the 1860s but we are even more so influenced by the camera because now it’s so readily accessible to everyone from their phone. So I have a couple questions attached to that. So if someone were to want to learn from the, you know, old masters, or try to learn to paint the traditional way? How would you say that they should completely reset their brain away from the camera?
Matthew James Collins: 24:49
Ah, that’s a that’s a great question, and that’s the response to that, because becoming more and more difficult to do that. That meaning. So when I was I would say the best way to just kind of go cold turkey and not look at images and start painting from life, and just paint directly from life and then doing so what happens is the familiarity painting from life every day. And I had the blessing to be able to do that while I was here in Florence, in my own work as well too, is when you just when we start looking at something long enough, and that’s the problem, we don’t have enough time anymore, right? We have all these things. We’re always rushing from one thing to another, looking at something long enough, you’ll see what we see in cameras is not what we see in real life, and that’s where people that go through the training here, and as you’ve done as well, too, you can see the human eye works differently, and that’s what’s and again, what we’re trying to do as artists, I think we all are, and only speak for myself, but we’re trying to speak to someone standing in front of our work who’s looking at it with their eyes too. And I think that’s a very so to remove the filters of the camera, move the filters of other thing, then you can that’s where the Baroque era, where they’re very sensitive how people perceive their works, and that’s why it became optical. I want to have that kind of sort of visceral experience in front of a picture as well, too. Even though we are influenced by we are influenced by photography, people are convinced the distortions they see in cameras are how we see the world, but that’s not how it is so. So this is that’s a tough question, can you eliminate the idea the photograph altogether? Maybe not. Maybe you can’t. And that even today is what kids are growing up, looking at little screens. Because obviously, in the 90s, we had a television, but you didn’t have a screen in front. You had a computer screen. Eventually there was no internet, so you had books. We looked at a lot of books, but that was already a camera looking at a picture, taking a photograph, but it was always not quite as distorted. The cameras weren’t as, let’s say, highly developed, where everything can be in the same focus as they are today, too. So technology is kind of divorcing us from a certain sense of reality, which I think is a bit of a shame. So even how we how you I mean, it’s wonderful we can talk right now, because look at your 1000 miles away. I’m right here, and we can still talk. But again, it’s not the same as seeing someone in person talking to someone in person. That’s this, and I think that’s even more so with experiencing a great work of art. And that’s where I’m getting a degree in art history in Chicago, and then living in Chicago as well too, where there’s obviously beautiful homes, beautiful places, but it’s a art wasn’t quite as central to, let’s say, say, a contemporary American way of living in my house, I was lucky. My parents had oil paintings and still lives, and they collected prints and everything as well too, but most people didn’t. And so to see art, you had to go to a museum. So this idea of an esthetic experience was confined to museums, and that’s very interesting idea as well. So, and this is where, again, coming to Florence, being able to see art in situ, because I studied everything in Slides, in art history, but then seeing in person, it was completely different. And it was almost and I guess a good example is, everyone studies in art history, the raft of Medusa by General com, no and, but when you see it in person, it’s, it’s it’s not, it’s like you never seen it before. It’s impressive when you see it that big in your book, or I see it on a screen, but when you see it in person, it’s a whole different, visceral experience. And that’s the power of art too. And you see that in Florence with the statues and the paintings and the press goes on the walls. And that’s which I would encourage, that’s experiencing things in person will help us overcome this idea the photograph as well, too, because we’re seeing things on small screens all the time.
Laura Arango Baier: 28:42
So yes, yeah, and I have a funny story about the raft of Medusa, because when I first saw it at the louver, it was bigger than my apartment in Italy. I can believe that, yeah, it’s just such a massive painting. You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t imagine it, of course, from a tiny image. And when you see it, it is, I was just, this is literally bigger than the layout of my tiny apartment in Florence. And it is amazing to imagine, you know, someone working on this painting, you know, setting up the models and setting up the setting to reference from. It’s, it’s magical, because there’s just so much in the process. There’s so much time that goes into making something well, you know, just just getting it done well. And the other crazy thing that I often think about is the fact that as artists, we gain these skills that are already extremely challenging and difficult to gain, and then when you have to apply them, you’re already at the base level of like, yeah, you have the basics. Now you have to develop that even more. It feels like this never ending tantalizing mountain that you just have to keep climbing when you think you’ve read. The peak. You’re like, nope, now it’s now it’s time to actually apply these insane principles that I’ve learned into something great. And I mean, it doesn’t even have to be like, as insane as the Raft of the Medusa, because, of course, that’s a very ambitious painting. But there’s also, I think, a necessity for people to continue to make ambitious paintings anyway, because it’s inspiring to humanity. I mean, that painting has been around for a very, very long time, and it will continue to, hopefully, to be around and inspire more people to paint a painting bigger than their apartment,
Matthew James Collins: 30:37
and then the humanity in it, and then the drama, and then, and then, that’s where Italy is also a wonderful example. I mean, this Sistine Chapel by Michelangelo. So that’s another, and it’s just one of the many examples of decorative wall painting where the decorative kind of used in a derogatory term. But it’s actually it used to be seen as the highest form of painting is these large scale figure paintings, because they do kind of transform how we live in the environment which we’re observing them because we’re observing them from life, and they kind of surround us and envelop us too. So, and that’s where it can really end. That’s even, I guess, Rubens even wrote an essay on the the sublimity of scale, and so, so making things bigger. So that’s why we all talk about everyone looks at Rubens and thinks all these over exaggerated curves and other things as well too. Making things larger changes how we perceive them. So even the raft of Medusa is kind of seems cartoony, but you see it in person, it doesn’t seem cartoony at all. It seems just right. That’s those are lessons you do. You can only learn by doing, and unfortunately, in contemporary, well in, probably even before in, let’s say, an atelier system, or in any sort of learning academic school setting, it’s difficult to set up those kind of projects and do those things too. So it’s something you learn the skills. Then you just kind of have to jump in and do them, though, and you learn on the on the job.
Laura Arango Baier: 32:01
So, yeah, yeah. And, and also have some sort of economic support on the side so that you can afford to do it. Because that’s the other really tough part of like, Oh, I really want to, you know, make this incredible thing you kind of have to live below your means. And also, you know, be able to manage around economically, so that you can do it, unless someone out there is lucky enough to be wealthy and can just dedicate themselves to it, which more power to them. I hope they they can really enjoy that. But yeah, for the rest of us, it’s, it really feels like a labor of love that we just have to, like, oh, you really want to do this. Okay, you got to find ways to you will find a way to figure it out. Hopefully. Yeah, and then I find it interesting too, because the Reynolds quote also that we mentioned earlier, it’s a it’s one of those. It touches on one of the topics that I think a lot of artists think about, a lot of our listeners think about, which is the idea of the artistic voice. And you also mentioned it, how, like, you know, Van Dyke has had his way of painting with the same exact, exact pigments as Rembrandt, same exact pigments as many of the surrounding painters who were working at the time, and yet you can distinguish them personally. You know, for you, how, what? How was it? How long did you did it take for you to develop your own artistic voice?
Matthew James Collins: 33:26
Well, that’s a maybe. It’s a question. It’s a to respond to the question. It’s an answer in evolution, because we’re constantly refining and finding our voice as well too. So our voice is kind of limited to the skills that we can to use to express it, but it’s also, but it’s in, let’s say, enlarged by the culture we have behind our skills too. So I think there’s this combination between we have we’re, you can say we’re given a certain set of talent, or we build a certain set of skills to illustrate our ideas or to express them mechanically through painting or sculpting or drawing. And that’s what painting is, just drawing and color and then. But we it’s the culture behind them that enlarges them as well too. So it’s this kind of balance in between. And so the voice is everything we kind of absorb. That’s your culture, and that’s where even a artist, I think even Reynolds said, again, he said that most, the biggest crime for an artist was to be uncultured. He said, There’s a you can have all the skills in the world, but if you have no culture, and even he was a had as the hierarchy of the you know, he was a portrait painter, but he saw this idea as Dec figurative, decorative painting as being the top as well, too. But he’s like, having a culture behind you is one of the most important things for developing your own voice, I think, because then it’s just as we look at look Rembrandt, and we look at Van Dyke and we look at Titian, they kind of we they are. They become our men. Mentors, in addition to our mentors that teach us how to hold a brush and mix the color, and then through those two combinations together, something comes out as well too. So that’s kind of what I think it’s this kind of mix between these ideas as well and so but obviously, as we already mentioned before, it is just repetition and work too. And this is where I think a lot of people, there’s a kind of this idea is the art, and that’s especially in contemporary artists. The artist sits down, it’s inspired, and throws paint on a canvas, and that’s the work of art. But obviously we have something more, let’s say sophisticated, not so sophisticated, a little bit more subtle and maybe profound. And we’re searching for something ourselves, too. And so in the act of painting, we find who we are, and we find our personal voice as well. So but not looking at other paintings, that’s I see a lot of art students that they don’t they’re curious about expressing themselves, but they’re not curious about art. And I think if you all the thing, all the artists the past, we just already, we previously mentioned, without exception, they were all extremely curious about art. They and then, for one example is they all came to Italy, except for Rembrandt. Rembrandt didn’t come to Italy, but all the paintings went through Amsterdam. So he saw plenty of Italian art, but they were certainly there’s a curiosity that I think that combines all of us of looking towards and we look at Leonardo, he’s looking at art. But he says, Look, it’s a nature, this idea, we want to try to find something. And that’s the artist journey. Regardless of our art form, pure writer or a poet is or a musician, we’re looking for something, and as we express that, we never quite get there. And then as we’re going towards it, we become ourselves, so kind of like the Odyssey, like the Odyssey, you know, that’s, I think that’s the the ultimate, uh, metaphor of the artist is, we’re kind in some ways. We’re always looking for a home. Our home is our, our where we are, who we are, but we never quite get there. And so, so you never quite know your first your voice, and I guess. And I also think in today’s contemporary post World War Two art kind of, let’s say organization of culture is and that some of I had to paint, the painter in Chicago told me he’s like, you know how you become a painter? You get him at first, you get a master’s degree, you paint the same picture 25 times, and you get an art critic, and then you get a show, and then you move forward. And it’s this idea of kind of goes into consumerism and branding yourself. And so that’s, I think, the poetic, obviously, the poetic, I think, should take precedent over developing a style. That’s the whatever happens, happens. You just paint, if it’s beautiful, that you’re in the right direction. That’s another thing that. That’s what impressed me about Baroque artists, especially as well, too. You look at all of them and they went to such a each artist goes through a profound change artistically, from when they started and when they ended and so and wasn’t a planned evolution towards making things more abstract. Towards the end, they were thinking about other things, but they definitely if you look at early Van Dyke and late Van Dyke is two different paintings. You look at early Rembrandt, late Rembrandt is two different painters, almost. So today they wouldn’t be wrecked they you’re discouraged from doing that, because then you don’t have a and Velasquez is probably the best one. He’s he started a caravaggisti, super hard drawn, very beautiful, and then he ended somewhere completely different. And I think that’s Titian did the same thing. So this is where, unfortunately, don’t my advice is, don’t let, let’s say these kind of external but you should do what you want. But I don’t want these external pressures to force me to paint something or paint in a way that that’s not what I’m looking for.
Laura Arango Baier: 38:49
So, yeah, so you’re totally in agreement. Yeah, there’s just, there’s something. It’s interesting. Because, like you said, you know, trying to box yourself into because I feel like, you know, having a voice and having a style aren’t necessarily the same thing, since, I mean, you can make up a style and then, oh, I’m recognized as the person who paints eyes, or the person who paints this very specific thing. And I think the way that we develop as humans is so contrary to creating a product, right? Like we just a product implies something that rarely evolves or stays very much the same throughout. And it’s very like, you like how galleries would be like, Oh, you get exactly what we expect every time, right? Because it sells. But that’s not how humans naturally function, right? We evolve, we learn, we change. That’s how it works for most of us. And then, yeah, maybe there are some painters out there who are very happy painting the same thing over and over. There’s no hate to them, of course. But. But not all of us, you know, have that luck, right where, oh, maybe I feel like, yeah, I’ve painted enough sunsets, but I want to try this other thing, right? And it’s usually curiosity that really pulls you out, and then, oh, hopefully my gallery is okay with this, and they don’t drop me, or hopefully my gallery allows me to have the permission to explore and experiment, right? It can feel very, like I said, very contrary to how we develop as humans throughout life, yeah, yeah.
Matthew James Collins: 40:36
I think that’s, that’s normal, and that’s because it, there’s kind of a and, but it’s also this idea of in contemporary world, this idea of franchising, having the same object and same idea, and this is where hopefully things will change. Whereas a work of art is an object and it is beautiful and it doesn’t have to be, it can be just a pretty still life, and it can live. Works of art can exist on so many different levels, which that’s what makes them so wonderful, and that’s and all the great works of art can function and be perceived on so many different levels, but that shouldn’t the artist does. We don’t want to be limited by the most base levels. Either. We’re always looking for something that’s a little bit more profound, and then in those simple that’s that we were talking about these contradictions in art, the in the most simple things, we find the most complex answers, and vice versa too. And so it’s just how many love stories have been written, but Romeo and Juliet, when you seen before, it’s, it doesn’t disappoint, and it’s still, it’s still profound and beautiful. That’s so it’s how it’s said as well, too, in the in the different the the verse is actually magical. So it’s and that’s goes with all the great arts as well. So the portrait is just the face, but again, it’s so much more when you put in the great artists and so and then as we, as artists, we want to get better. So we’re kind of, we have our own personal journey and our own personal journey. If we have the right culture and a good training, we can make some very beautiful things, and then we grow as well too. So that’s the and that’s kind of the which is good and but obviously, when we it’s which is good, but also, we also we also have to survive and other things as well doing. We also want to communicate to a and transmit something that I think the world needs as well. So this is where, again, painting from life, painting beautiful porches, painting things that aren’t photographic, is something I think the world kind of needs now, because we’re also doing things as well. So it’s important to do those ideas. And so, but it’s, it’s actually an act of rebellion in a certain sense, because it doesn’t make much sense monetarily, doesn’t make much sense financially, it doesn’t make much sense in terms of the same mainstream culture as well, too, and so, but again, that’s why I think maybe it’s so important. So at
Laura Arango Baier: 42:58
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But, yeah, there’s something really interesting about how paintings they take so long they take, you know, a priceless amount of time, right? Like you can’t really put a price on the experience and the lived life that you have to gain to paint something like the Raft of the Medusa, for example. That’s, you know, a price that no one could be really able to pay back. And I find that, you know, it is the antithesis of, you know, how. A lot of products are sold today. You know, they’re made to be used and discarded, or used and then broken after a certain amount of time, but paintings, they don’t really fall under that category. So I have hopes that, you know, we will remember that as humanity, that what will remain is the beautiful, handcrafted aspect of us. You know what it means to be a human, but yeah, and then the other thing that I think will always Outlast is the portrait, because it is especially like you had mentioned in one of your articles, that it is life size portraiture that is some of the most impactful to witness, because it it, it does have this uncanny feeling of you’re being observed. You’re being you know, you’re connecting with someone who’s long gone. Can you tell us a little bit about your own process with creating a portrait, and what parts of that process you recommend for people to also do so that they can improve their portraiture?
Matthew James Collins: 46:09
Oh, well, yeah, there’s that, well, there’s way, any different ways of creating portraits. And then I way that I was taught, it says so is the the site size method as well, too, which has kind of been used for lots of different applications, but it was primarily used as a portrait method to create portraits from life very quickly. And so this is where you have them canvas, right next to the side of the model. You stand back at a distance, which would be a viewing distance, which was very logical back in the Renaissance and onwards, because you have your viewers looking at the painting so and so, you could identify different kind of problems as well, in terms of proportion and drawing as well too. And so Van Dyke used the variation on that where he would occasionally put the canvas alongside and then bring the canvas back up to him as well, too. But it’s this idea of using distance to see proportions. And that’s where, just like in everything in life, the further back you get from something and you can see whether it works. And that’s where even Leonardo talks about this idea of viewing distance too. And so I kind of use this method to do life size portraiture, where you just set up the canvas alongside you stand back, and then by observing both your image and the model to scale. You can see, you can you can develop the shapes very quickly and very accurately too. So, but obviously there’s limitations, because it’s can only be, it’s a, you know, the pose has to be one viewing point. You can’t models in different, interesting dynamic poses as well, too. So that’s the beginning point as well. So this is where you can also, as I paint as well, too. Obviously, when you’re trying to learn, you have to have the model sit still, but you always want to discuss, talk with people. And then you can actually, let’s say, Delve and pull out their personality as you observe them over a long period of time too. So this is where I tend to paint portraits from life, pretty much all. And so where people pose, and they pose for several hours, and then I just kind of have a conversation, paint them. And then you, as you observe people, you see who they are. So this is where, again, working from references. It’s two dimensional, two dimensional. Three to two dimension. This three dimension observing something from life and then creating something in two dimensions, not just copying, it’s creating. And so that’s, I think, a very important opportunity, which, obviously it’s actually, it’s actually difficult to try to find people to pose, or people who are willing to pose, but once they do start posing, it’s actually quite pleasant and nice as well, too. It’s, it’s an, it’s a, not a torturous experience, so,
Laura Arango Baier: 48:42
yeah, yeah. I mean, it shouldn’t be, otherwise they won’t do it again. And then you have a half started painting, yeah, which kind of sucks, yeah.
Matthew James Collins: 48:51
And then using, I use kind of a historical palette too. So because I was just inspired by the past, so you trying to use the same, I would retry to recreate the palette of what Van Dyke would use, or the British school, or even eg LeBron. And so what’s nice about the feet seat, which is the art gallery here, the gallery the feet see here in Florence, they have a self portrait section of all these artists. And they all, you know, they’re all holding their palettes, and you can see all the colors are using. So you go there not just to appreciate their their wonderful visions of themselves, these artists of the past, but you can see exactly their kind of tools of the trade as well, too. VG Lebrun, Elizabeth. VG Lebrun is one of the best portrait painters the 18th century, and she has a fantastic one self portrait in the Uffizi with all the colors she uses and how they organize them. So I did a lot of research art historically on different approaches to creating portraits as well too. And that was a really formative experience as well, too. And in addition to copying things as well. So I cop, I spent two years copying in the Art Institute when I was a student there as well, too. So this idea of copying, but also reading first person sources to try to find out the kind of mediums they use, the kind of oils they use. Used, and again, I would agree with you, if there’s no like magic medium, but trying different things out and trying to kind of understand what kind of that’s been. Finding Your voice is finding your technique. And finding your technique is experiment, experimenting with different materials where you can get the most beautiful image you can using the materials that are available to you by choice too. You choose. So some people paint thickly, some people paint thinly. I think the best painters do both. So you do so, and that’s a and then it’s just painting from life. And then if you can’t have the time to be able to work on things too. Again, this is where we see things through social media now. And then you see these. It seems like instantaneous works of art, but it takes, it takes a long time to make a nice portrait too, and again, and it’s easy, and that’s where we mentioned earlier about the workshop culture too. Is this idea, I can paint a portrait in two sittings. I can paint a portrait in a sitting. Well, that’s usually not the best portraits, either. So this idea of spending time and then finishing a painting takes a lot longer than starting one, and that’s what’s kind of that’s where the art and the beauty comes in as well, too. So in the general studio practice, I use pretty much what a lot of painters use today in terms of painting from life, but I think distance is really important, being able to stand back and seeing things from a distance. And obviously, because I’m going for optical ideas, but I think that’s also in terms of practical sense that even Leonardo talks about standing back and then using a mirror to see your shapes. BG, Lebrun talks about it. So there’s plenty of sources out there how to improve your portrait painting, but again, it’s again, the more you observe from life, the more you see things that you would not see in a photograph, too. And you see atmosphere through edges. You see create impact through accents and highlights and dark accents as well, too. And so this is where this idea of having the time to start creating paintings from life, especially having people pose, is a really important, I think idea observing people under natural light, if possible, or diffused light, so we can see those edges as well too. So again, in my practice, I try to create in nature what I want to achieve in my painting. So using natural soft lighting, using a certain kind of pose, organizing the lighting the way I want to and so then, in addition to that, using a knowledge of construction to explain the form which is not quite obvious, or to emphasize certain things as well, too, that should have a psychological impact at the end, and a mode of impact as well. So, so I say, yeah, so it’s uh, but also designing things too. You also designing the portrait, I think is the most important thing. So this is where, that’s where looking at paintings will help you make a better portraits and looking and so. And I guess one of the Van Dyke is fantastic, is a and he uses a variety of poses as well too. But no one is quite as, let’s say, creative in poses, as Sergeant. Sergeant. If you look at sergeant, he creates. He has so many different poses and dynamic poses. They tend it is inspiring to see his portraiture and how he can play spaces and put lightings on them to create something that’s quite that brings out the personality of the person.
Laura Arango Baier: 53:16
Yes, yeah. And that also just reminded me, because you mentioned, you know, looking at other painters. That reminds me also of the quote, you know, there’s nothing new under the sun, sure. So there’s no need to reinvent the wheel and try to come up with things when it was probably already done by an old master or another painter, and you can observe how they did it. And you know, you know, create something derivative of that, or try to understand the portrait that you’re doing while also observing one in a similar situation, which is something that I was doing. You know, when I was trying to teach myself some more portraiture outside of class, I would try to find a painting that was in a similar pose to one that I wanted to paint, and then that way, it’s a lot easier to like look at how this specific painter described the cheekbone, or how they describe the shadow under the eye, in the in the, you know, beneath the eyebrows, or the shadow beneath the nose, how they described the chroma of the nostrils or the area around the nostrils. Okay, like, how did they do that? How do they do this without exaggerating? Because that’s the other very typical thing that I think we all go through when we’re starting out, is we tend to we see color and we just exaggerate it, which is also something you learn over time, that gray is your best friend, or low chroma versions, or lower Chroma versions of most colors are much, much nicer to the eye and having little pops here and there. But of course, you learn this through observation and through looking at the old masters and just trying it a million times as well.
Matthew James Collins: 54:59
No, I. I agree. I think that’s where the it’s that is kind of contemporary paint is where you just over hit the color, and then you have to knock it down where it was in the past. It was a little bit. It was the opposite, where you have dead coloring, and then you build up to that. And then when you start looking at the paintings, and I mean, when you see a Titian in real life, it doesn’t disappoint in terms of color, and that’s where, and that’s and Van Dyke especially, that’s where. So these, there’s a sensitivity to color which is quite much more harmonious than that’s even a Monet or you go to late Impressionist paintings well too. There’s a subtlety in those colors which are quite admirable. And then also colorful too. They’re not, they don’t they’re not boring. And so this is where. And again, I would, I think that’s a great advice, too. And I did the same thing. You always want your learning. You kind of find heroes, and you’re kind of development, and you say, Oh, gee, Van Dyke, set up a model like this. I’m gonna set up a model like this and see what happens. And so that think that’s the perfect way to start entering as because we as artists, we have to do it so we understand it. Just talking about is one that is not enough. So it’s in creating something, then we can understand all the intricacies of the construction and application and other things as well too. And at the same time, understand the visual sensibility and language as well too. So in copying old master pictures, I was copying them to understand technique, but then also you become more sensitive to the visual language as well, too. So the only thing that’s new under the sun is us. No, there’s never been you or me before, and we’re unique. And so when we look at the world around us and bring things in, and then we kind of put something out, it becomes unique if we are, I think, honestly and sincere, sincerely using the visual language to its fullest, and that’s where, and that’s where our own personal interests and formations and what you do helps develop our culture. And that’s where the culture comes to the voice, and that’s where it comes out as well, as well. So we kind of, that’s what we need to do. So we don’t, and that’s, again, it is this idea of in contemporary art culture too. It’s this like, Oh, his innovative technique of doing this. And that’s very it’s like, you have to create, like, a brand new, improved formula. It’s like, well, no, I’m not making a new laundry detergent. I’m just, I’m trying to make a beautiful painting. So, and this is where we just use the same these. We don’t have to create something new, but what we create is new, and that’s where, again, what we’re doing is reinforcing how special we are as individuals, instead of just a part of an economic system or part of a commercial system, which we are because we have to, that’s how the world works. But again, I think we’re so much more, and that’s why art is important. It goes back to that we’re trying to through our personal expression of ourselves, people can experience their individuality, and that’s maybe what art should be doing as well, too.
Laura Arango Baier: 57:54
Yes, that is very, very inspiring. Because, of course, it goes from like, okay, we’re part of this collective thing, but then we’re also, like this tiny piece of it, kind of like, you know, like a loop, you know, like you need the collective to individuate. Because, like Alan Watts, one of my favorite philosophers, he used to say that finding yourself or like, you know, finding out who you are is very difficult. You can only do it through the other because it’s like trying to touch the tip of your finger with the same tip. It’s Wow. You can’t really do that. So exploring the solve has to be through also observing your surroundings and participating, like you said, like in culture, and learning about it and learning about, okay, well, this isn’t what I am, but this might be what I think I am. And then, you know, that’s why I think, also, like you said earlier, that the practice of painting is truly the practice of finding out who you are, which that’s a whole, whole other, very deep, deep well, that you just kind of experience as you do it as well. But yeah, and then I also wanted to ask you, because you also sent me another very interesting article, which I link, and you talk about the museums being almost like an art Zoo. Do you mind elaborating a little bit
Matthew James Collins: 59:23
on that? Sure, yeah, because I did an article for the epic times, which is a new was it New York newspaper, and it was a series called Art speak. So I wrote a series of articles. They asked me about a work, about individual works of art, and then just talk about them. And so in that article, where I talked about art zoos. It was really about art in context. And so it was the fawn, the dancing fawn of Pompe, which is this beautiful little bronze sculpture that’s in the archeological museum there, and so and so it was just talking about that sculpture in particular. But then again, it kind of relates to my whole experience of growing up. In the Midwest, which was in Chicago, being a cultural city, and living in Oak Park, which is a cultivated sort of suburb, and having an artistic family, snuts, and then having a reference point for a big, let’s say important art was the museum too. And so you go there it goes on this esthetic experience that would be reserved for the museum. But then, as you you can see, and so in that article, I was trying to explore the importance of context for what works of art. So a lot of the works we go to museums now, and museums were kind of a phenomenon that kind of grew at 18th century, 19th century, especially the Archeological Museum in Naples. And what kind of really struck me as that, because it’s a wonderful little sculpture that was in a in one of the houses of Pompe, and it was a garden sculpture. But if you look at it, it’s just a masterpiece and an anatomy and this little pond that’s dancing, and so a beautiful sculpture. And what’s interesting Kenneth Clark, sir. Kenneth Clark, in his book The nude, talks about and he kind of points it out as being a an example of the static and the deadness of classical sculpture in terms of kind of something frozen in time, and talking about that in his overall arc of explaining the nude, the elevation of the evolution of the nude in Western Art, and that kind of something hit me is that didn’t quite explain what that sculpture was. Because if you go to Pompeii and you see these houses which were highly decorated with frescoes everywhere, and then there, obviously these houses were like full of people. And this is where, living in Italy, there’s a more there’s a very active social life. And then everything’s kind of, you go into churches, they’re packed with decoration. There’s living in Florence. You see, there’s art everywhere. Art was a in the ancient world, it was as well, too. Art was an integral part of civic life, private life and sacred life, and everywhere. So it was. Art wasn’t something reserved for a museum and so and so talking about and when you look at the fawn in the museum, the archeological museum Naples, you can kind of see what he was saying wasn’t completely wrong. It’s kind of frozen into a little, little fawn frozen in a glass box. But if you imagine in the middle of a fountain with the colorful frescoes and the music and people living their lives around it, then it’s not it’s not frozen anymore. It’s living. And that’s where and a lot of the art we see in museums, most of almost 90 more than 90% was meant to be seen in houses or churches or civic buildings, and they had an other life. And so this is when you see something that’s natural habitat. That’s when you can truly understand what the work of art is, and you can comment on it so and then when you see it in that sense, that’s the fawn isn’t frozen, but it’s dancing within this kind of the life of a house, of a household with families and children and colorful walls and other things as well too, and water and sun and and gardens. And that’s that’s where I did when you go to a museum and they are and I love museums, and I spent too much time, not too much time. You never spend much time. And I love going to museums because, like visiting friends, but you can see that there. When you see altar pieces, you see other paintings. They weren’t meant to be there. They were meant to be somewhere else. And so in my kind of quest to try to figure out, why do those pictures look the way they did? You kind of also have to understand the context in which they were made. And so when we look at when talking this again, it goes back to Baroque painting, when they were thinking about the optical effects. It wasn’t because it was supposed to be in some little room. It was supposed to be in a big room. They usually artists would design things, and they had to be maybe the blessing, the benefit, but also the challenge to design things on commissions for specific spaces. And they took that into consideration when they were creating those works of art. So I was kind of, I’m curious of why would certain pictures be a certain way? Because they would optically correct them so they could look certain, look in a certain way, in a certain wall, on a certain certain lighting as well too, and that’s very obvious in religious paintings as well. So we see, when you see sacred art, you know, paintings in museums, they weren’t meant to be there. They’re meant to be in other spaces. So, and that’s kind of a, I think, a missing link in a lot of art today is we don’t make it for a specific context. And that’s not that’s that’s beyond our control. So unfortunately, so that’s where I kind of see them as art zoos. They see these poor paintings kind of stuck there, where they were meant to be in someone’s home, or meant to be they meant to be lived with every day. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s kind of like a world that’s my life mission is we just need more art on everybody’s walls and everyone’s house, so you can you live with art every day. And I think that’s another lesson of being a blessing. Living in Italy is you see that everywhere art, especially Florence, and even more so than other cities, Florence, there’s art everywhere. And so everywhere, and that’s where it’s on the street corners and the adic was these kind of little altar pieces on every corner. There’s a Madonna and child or a saint, there’s statues, there’s and then there’s. Decorated doorways. There’s door knockers. And so every part of our life is accompanied by art. And so we don’t have to go visit. And so when you have to go visit something that’s in a little room where it’s not supposed to be, that’s kind of sad, I think it’s kind of that’s why it becomes a zoo, because we don’t quite understand what they are. You don’t see seeing a tiger in a zoo is not like seeing a Tiger in the Jungle, and then you understand why the tiger is the way it is, because it’s in the jungle.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:29
So, yeah, I love that. Because, like you said, you know, like, Art has always been almost like an active participant in life, and to separate it from its context. It does, it does deaden it a little bit. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of sad to experience it that way. Like, imagine if the ecstasy of st Teresa was outside of the original church, where it is like, Oh, wow, this is an amazing sculpture. But at the same time, like, you push that button, the light turns on, and you’re like, in this amazing experience of a sculpture that is meant to inspire people.
Matthew James Collins: 1:06:15
Yeah, you’re not getting the whole experience either. So if they take the out of where it’s supposed to be. It’s still a beautiful sculpture, but then it’s we’re missing something, and then it becomes something. Then it becomes something. It’s almost not. And that’s what’s kind of and that’s where, how do we solve that? I don’t know, but I was lucky, because I was commissioned to do a couple big paintings for stairwells in a school in North Dakota for a classical school. So I did the decoration of independence, and then I did the foundation of Rome. And that was a wonderful experience, because then I was able to kind of put into practice this idea of using optical taking the view lines where the pictures are seen, and then adjust the the adjust the perspective on the figures, or just this perspective on the viewpoint, so that we could design the picture in terms that how it seemed from a variety of viewpoints too. And that’s another thing where you, when we look at paintings as well, we kind of assume you’re supposed to see just from the front, from the side, but paintings are meant to be seen from all different kinds of angles too. I don’t know I get, I don’t have you. When you go to museums, it’s very kind of fun to look at paintings obliquely and looking slightly from the angle. And you can see how it changes the values and the colors as well too. So it’s this idea of discovery as well. Pictures as well. You see something from far away, and then you come brings you close to it as well, too. So this is where experiencing works of art in person, there’s lots of different levels of experience, from the first impact from a distance, as you get close, to see how things fall into different details and brush work. And so it becomes this a truly interactive experience, which is, I think, something that that, again, it’s a as you that participates in our lives and accompanies us, and then also makes us reflect about things, but also gives us joy and emotions and all these other things as well, too, and it and it makes life better. It just makes life better. I mean, there’s nothing more sad than a blank white wall for me. So what want to see pictures on them?
Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:20
I totally agree, yes. And that also reminded me of how Michelangelo, when he would make sculptures that we’re meant to be seen from below, he used to play with the perspective to make the upper body bigger in you know, when you would see it like eye to eye, but from below, it’s perfectly proportional, like it looks like, yeah, that’s, that’s a guy who’s perfectly proportional, but you see him, you know, eye to eye, and he’s massive, like, almost like a cone of the way that he’s increased the proportion so that it doesn’t look wonky from below, which is incredible. I mean, the fact that they this is something that is naturally thought of, right? It’s not just like, oh, make a nice sculpture and it’ll go up there. It’s like, No, I want people to see this and to understand what it is from below. I don’t want them to see a receding figure. That is. It is another part of the craft that is so amazing, and it sounds awesome. You know, the what you did the paintings to make sure that they’re seen from the correct angle. I think that’s also like next level, like art in its home, type of feeling, instead of, oh, here’s a painting that I made, and let’s find a wall where it fits. It’s more like,
Matthew James Collins: 1:09:37
Sure, then what happens? Happens. And I like, that’s not a satisfying response. And then it’s also, it goes back to the Greeks too, because the Greeks always use optical correction, I guess, for there’s architecture and sculptures, and that’s where because, and that just shows you, maybe they were looking at the world in a better way than we are. So they’re seeing things that a bit more profound, not profoundly, but they were looking more. Closely, and then living things more fully, too. That’s, again, we tend to coast over things. Now this is just kind of flip across screens and flip across images without truly looking at them, but again, maybe looking at something. And then that’s why we take that, I guess, as ours, we take that on as a responsibility, because if someone’s going to spend time looking at our works of art, we want something to be deep and something that will be rewarding over a long period of time, too. So the same kind of esthetic experience we get when we go to museums, if we have to, that’s to see Van Dyke and everything and Titian, but we see go every time you go back to a masterpiece painting, it never disappoints, and you see new things, and it’s like a it’s there’s a and that’s even a when. And as artists, we see things in a certain way. But even regular people, let’s say this civilian life, they see things that they do enjoy art as well, too. I mean, that’s what’s kind of I think, in hardening is when you see how popular the sergeant show was. I mean, how many people visited that? How many people visited the Bouguer show before there’s a Van Dyke Show, there’s the Reynolds show. So figurative art is kind of making, not just a comeback, but people are are interested in these things as well too, and not just in terms of a an economic, financial thing, but, you know, average, normal people are interested in in art as well too, and it’s our responsibility to make things that are engaging interesting, and then through poetry, they understand this kind of idea of catharsis, and this idea of living through works of art as well too, in a healthy way.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:11:36
So, yeah, yeah, not saying it is, you know, like you said, like, Oh, it’s just something you swipe on, you know, it like, I also agree it’s our responsibility to make something or to continue to create works that stop people in their tracks. And, you know, instead of making something that’s consumable, like, you know, I think about how commodified like decoration has become, like, even just very simple, like, even this, you know, this video, right? Me editing it like it took, it takes a while to edit a video we become so accustomed to, like, oh yes, of course, it’s being edited. That’s how it is. But that also is something that takes time and effort to put in a specific composition and to make it easy on the eyes, but we take that for granted. But that’s why it’s also good to make paintings and pieces that people certainly will stop and look at and realize, oh, every corner of this 2d surface right has taken a single brush stroke or multiple brushstrokes to fit by a single hand, instead of just, oh yeah, that’s just how it is, because that’s what we expect. Like there’s, I feel like there’s a bit of a disconnect too there. But yeah, I wanted to ask you too, because you mentioned, you know, having you have your courses that you teach, and you also have commissions that you’ve taken. What are some of the avenues that you’ve taken to both live from your work and or from your skills and expertise?
Matthew James Collins: 1:13:12
Well, galleries always help, so I but I’m not a real get big gallery. I tend to paint, and my paintings change, and ideas change, and so I tend to create paintings. But there’s, I have a painting, there’s a one’s going to Lisbon. My figurative work tends to be a bit buried, and travel to different, smaller galleries across Europe. And then I do I’ve been always doing portrait commissions as well, too. So there’s a bit of always getting your work out there and sharing it with people, because that’s what we because that’s what we wanted. We want to, obviously, we’re looking trying to find ourselves, but we want to share our journey with other people. And I think that’s another and again, essentially what we do in creating works of art is we’re trying to share this kind of beautiful experience that we have in creating art with other people. And I think that’s important as well too. We create it for ourselves, but without anyone seeing it. That’s that’s very romantic 19th century bohemian idea, but deep down, we want to people to see the kind of the world and share our vision and so and then so and so different gallery shows. But I’ve never been a big into commercial galleries, because it’s my work tends to be a bit kind of idiosyncratic. But portrait commissions have always been wonderful as well, too. And then I do, I do teaching as well too. So I was teaching at Cecil for a while, and then I’m teaching at a university here in Florence. And then I do, I tend to, and I do some private lessons in my studio now as well too, being slightly dis, I don’t, I’m not, contrary to workshops, but I kind of do a successful workshop. Certain things have to happen. And then the kind of condensing of what I want to kind of transmit, especially in terms of portraiture, which I think I’ve a lot to share, it’s difficult to do in a three or four days as well, too. So I kind of, I always try to paint along with the people that I’m from the very beginning to the end too. So I don’t. Like, do a demo, right? And then everyone paints. I kind of paint as everyone else is painting. And then I kind of teach so this way, and I talk and paint at the same time, yes, so I can do both. So you kind of try to, because a lot of painting is, I think, in terms of teaching painting, it’s seeing how someone paints, and seeing what they’re doing, and then kind of intervene, what is the title? Where’s intervenida is kind of step in at the right moment and then put them on track or change something or adjust something. So, because people tend to do things without thinking about it, they’re used to it. And then, if they’re mixing it, Colorize, oh no, to do that, and then change this. No, stand there. Look at this. And so without seeing someone do that, or just have them do it on their own, and then correct afterward, I see as less productive as being right there and so. And then that kind of limits, obviously what I can do. So I only have a certain amount of space, so I tend to only have one or two students at the most, and then I paint a portrait along with them too. I think that’s maybe the best way to teach anyway, so, but obviously there’s not. There’s other ways to teach as well, too, and you can definitely transmit a lot as transmit a lot as well, too. So I tend to certain painters come in and visit me, and then they kind of, we just paint a portrait together, and that’s one way of learning.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:09
So, yeah, yeah, no, but that’s a that’s an excellent point, because that was actually one of my frustrations as a student as well. Is being told after the fact, oh, no, you did this wrong. And it’s like, Well, you saw me. Why didn’t you intervene, like how you were saying because that would have prevented me from spending so much time trying to resolve something that I could have avoided. But I think, you know, that’s, that’s one of the hard parts as well, and probably the one of the reasons you you keep so few students is because it is hard to do that for every single student when there’s so many of them and only one instructor. Yeah, so I
Matthew James Collins: 1:16:49
and teaching is a skill too. So this is where it’s I was lucky. Where I was, where I studied, I got was an excellent teacher, so I learned teaching skills there. So teaching is communication, it’s also empathy, and then it’s also direction. And so those three different kind of, let’s say, elements come together. I think to make good teaching is where you have to empathize with what the students going through doing, and then you have to be able, to be able, you have to know what the what they should be doing, and then you have to give them direction to do it as well too. So, and that’s and communicate that in a productive way too. Yeah, I’ve had lots and lots of really bad art teachers over the years, and so just, just terrible. And so when I try to endeavor is not do what they did. So because I’ve had studying fresco, they secure and they just come, they say, It’s all wrong, it’s terrible, it’s all bad. I was like, well, that’s thank you for the feedback. But then how do you make that better? Nothing. So it’s like, so yeah, there’s plenty of people that, there’s plenty of teachers that are antiso. Teaching is a, I think, a great way, if you’re an artist, to supplement and to, let’s say, work and share the knowledge that you acquire. But I think first, as we mentioned before, in July, so the problem. So let’s say the the problems of, let’s say contemporary art schools, where students are teaching, they are not teaching very much, and they don’t know how to teach. And so that becomes a problem too. So first, learn how to do something, and then being able to communicate it. Then you become you can teach too. So giving lessons and other things, and obviously need a learning curve. It’s not like you learn how to teach like that. It’s practice. But so definitely, teaching is a, I think, a nice way to augment your because being an artist is hard. It’s a terrible it’s that. It’s terrible, it’s hard, it’s stressful, it’s some people are commercially minded, and they can really make the jump. Like people are commercial artists go into fine art, but they become commercial Fine Arts, and that’s fantastic, and they make very beautiful things. But if that’s not your personality, you just have to kind of deal with that as well, too. But I think in terms of teaching, you have to be able to, as you’ve experienced firsthand, you have to be able to transmit something and help people. If you can’t, well, then that’s you’re you’re benefiting, but the student’s not benefiting as well. So that’s kind of a shame in the end.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:08
So yeah, yeah. And I think it’s almost like a rite of passage for many of us to experience not so great teachers. It’s inevitable. I mean, not everyone that we meet is going to be an excellent teacher. But I think it also teaches us how not to teach, which
Matthew James Collins: 1:19:25
is really great. And then also someone and obviously, art is hard, so obviously, if companies discouraging you, then you just have to keep going. So obviously, if you’re easily discouraged and you stop, well maybe you should, because art is hard and art is it’s hard on every different level. But if it’s something that drives you forward and it needs you, and you need to do it, and you want to do it, then you just do it. And then obviously all the obstacles that are in the way will you overcome them one way or the other. And then obviously it’s but that’s what you. That, unfortunately, it’s not easy, and so you need a thick skin to be an artist, but also you need to believe in yourself as well too. So this is where it’s all again. It’s a it is this kind of circle of contradictions, where these different things come together, where you have to move forward as well.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:15
So yes, absolutely. And I know you just gave some really excellent advice, but do you have any final advice for someone who wants to become a full time artist?
Matthew James Collins: 1:20:29
Well, I think we’re all full time artists if we’re thinking about and doing it too. So this is where, again, if you if, if you have to get sidelined doing a little bit of this and doing that, that’s where it’s I think we’re kind of, you’re born an artist, and then you can, you can, if you have find the opportunity to express yourself and then be able to make a living off of it, that’s fantastic, because we have to make a living. But in the end, you shouldn’t. Again, unfortunately, that’s how the world is today. I think it’s a shame, because there’s a lot of poetic people that are discouraged from going into the arts because they don’t think there’s an opportunity in it, or they can’t make a decent living, and other things as well too. But if you’re destined to do it, you’ll do it and then just kind of overcome those obstacles as well to become a full time artist. Very rarely are people that are, let’s say, poetically inclined, full time artists, because they, unfortunately, there’s a lot of different ideas that go in together there too. So you just kind of, kind of, I don’t have good advice in that sense, though,
Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:37
I totally get you. It’s a It’s rough. It’s really rough. I mean, that’s why some people, I think, get day jobs, or they become teachers, or we’re in a bit of a strange time in the world right now. So I think there are weird, different opportunities that appear somehow. But yeah, it’s hard to give concrete advice. I totally agree.
Matthew James Collins: 1:22:00
Yeah, you do the best you can. And then obviously, it also depends on the personality as well, too, and what you want to do. So I mean, this is where, if you’re true to yourself, whatever you do, and then you can still be a great artist and sell, let’s say landscapes. And you could still, still lives. And you can do it as long as you’re being sincere and true to yourself. And for me, if you make beautiful things, that’s the most important thing. And then, obviously, sooner or later, they will be appreciated. Unfortunately, sometimes it’s later, it’s not sooner and so and then, obviously, there’s lots of other aspects of becoming a full time artist, which is networking and business sense and then, but some, I think it’s a lot of those, and then knowing how to insert yourself in certain environments, and then getting certain ideas and gallery shows and but that’s has very little to do with art, as we were mentioned in the very beginning of the conversation about the let’s say art, basil and other things as well, too. That’s a whole different kind of you can become a full time artist and not be a very good artist. And so that’s when you can be a great artist and not be able to be a full time artist too. So but again, that’s, I think there’s space for everybody. So you just have to find out where you fit in there and then do the best you can.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:10
So yeah, yeah, that’s all you really can do. There’s room for everyone. I do. I do agree, yeah. And then if someone wants to take classes with you, or if they want to see more of your work, do you have any exhibitions going on, or anything that you would like to promote?
Matthew James Collins: 1:23:34
But anyone’s interested in taking less wants to come study privately, send me a message, and then, as I do, plenty commissions, anyone’s interested in getting a nice portrait painted, they can always contact me. It’s come out to Florence as well, too. And so and I have a paintings in different museums. So if you happen to be in Barcelona, there’s a painting in the museum there and their permanent collection, and a painting in Florida and in Orlando, at the basilica there. So there’s obviously seeing paintings in real life is the best so, but that’s unfortunate, and galleries in the USA, there’s a nice there’s a jack Meyer gallery of some paintings and sculptures there. So I’ve had the end to be there. So, but other than that, if you come to flourishes, write me, and then you can come visit. So it’d be a pleasure to see other artists and other artists and other art students. Anyone wants to come, just
Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:25
contact me. Awesome. Yeah. And then what is your website? And if you have social media, the website
Matthew James Collins: 1:24:31
is like, my name, luckily, Matthew James Collins, and then Instagram is the same thing. Matthew James Collins, artist, so
Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:39
perfect, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Matthew For the very informative, inspiring conversation. I this was brain candy for me. Oh, well,
Matthew James Collins: 1:24:51
thank you. It’s a pleasure chatting with your wonderful conversationalist.
Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:54
So thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you to everyone out there for. Listening to the podcast, your continued support means a lot to us. If you’ve enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple podcast Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank you.
